Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: PFactorDave on March 22, 2012, 10:56:42 AM
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There have been a couple of threads lately that have discussed the Spits and whether or not they are in fact easy mode. Every time this topic comes up, there are a number of folks who post that spits aren't hard to handle "if you know how".
Personally, I still struggle when fighting spits. I thought it might be educational if we could discuss how you approach a fight with a spit and win, in whatever aircraft you normally fly when spit killing.
So, tell us what you are flying and as much detail about what you do to win against those pesky spits as possible.
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I don't approach a spit any different than any other bird, it all depends on initial situation on how I go about destroying it.
the tactics should be basically the same no matter what you are facing, get some offset on the merge so by time you pass each other you are already in your reversal and line up onto his 9-6, if you see he is pulling hard, drop throttle and just pull into him, unless you have a good E advantage, then you wont be able to pull in fast enough...of course this depends on what you are in.
initial E states is very important in deciding what to do, you gotta learn to judge your nme's E...from there it really becomes easy on how you react....
example
your in a slow 51...say 250 or so....spit comes diving down with a massive closer rate you know his E state is much higher then yours, wait until he is about 800 out before you start to maneuver, a fake split S will make him drop his nose even more picking up more speed, making it much harder for him to track you.....try to get below their nose and then make your move, he wont see you do it, and by time he sees where you went, he is playing catch up.
the slower plane most often will turn tighter then the faster plane, very few exceptions to this rule....
don't know if that is helpful, I could look for some films of my merges with spits.
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example
your in a slow 51...say 250 or so....spit comes diving down with a massive closer rate you know his E state is much higher then yours, wait until he is about 800 out before you start to maneuver, a fake split S will make him drop his nose even more picking up more speed, making it much harder for him to track you.....try to get below their nose and then make your move, he wont see you do it, and by time he sees where you went, he is playing catch up.
This illustrates a greater point: A spit flown by a newb can be beaten in more-or-less conventional fashion. A spit flown by a competent pilot won't fall for a trick, though. In this instance he'll just throttle back a bit so that he doesn't overshoot (spit has superb throttle response) and there he is on your six. Or he'll let you go if he sees you're going to outrun him.
If you're in a more maneuverable plane than a spit - zekes or Hurri Is on the slow side, Franks on the high side - then you have a chance to lure him into a knife fight. Again, though, if he's clever he won't do this. A Frank, at least, can chase him down and is probably the best plane (IMHO!) to be flying if you expect to encounter spits.
If you're in a much faster plane (many are) and have an initial energy advantage, then you can b&z a spitfire, so long as you're very careful not to lose your energy in the process. This won't work if there are other enemy planes nearby, if you don't have an initial advantage, or if you're already getting sleepy.
- oldman
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This illustrates a greater point: A spit flown by a newb can be beaten in more-or-less conventional fashion. A spit flown by a competent pilot won't fall for a trick, though. In this instance he'll just throttle back a bit so that he doesn't overshoot (spit has superb throttle response) and there he is on your six. Or he'll let you go if he sees you're going to outrun him.
If you're in a more maneuverable plane than a spit - zekes or Hurri Is on the slow side, Franks on the high side - then you have a chance to lure him into a knife fight. Again, though, if he's clever he won't do this. A Frank, at least, can chase him down and is probably the best plane (IMHO!) to be flying if you expect to encounter spits.
If you're in a much faster plane (many are) and have an initial energy advantage, then you can b&z a spitfire, so long as you're very careful not to lose your energy in the process. This won't work if there are other enemy planes nearby, if you don't have an initial advantage, or if you're already getting sleepy.
- oldman
A very well flown spit is a rare thing :D
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A very well flown spit is a rare thing :D
But still, the tactics you described are really more about beating the pilot, not the plane. A 'very well' flown spit is a rare thing. A 'decently' flown spit is still a tough nut to crack IMO.
I approach spits somewhat how Ink describes it in that I generally try to capitalize on the pilot's mistakes moreso than what the plane can do because for the most part, whatever my plane can do in a turnfight it can do better.
I'm interested in this thread as well, as I do alright BnZing spits to death, but I run into real trouble with most of them in a turnfight. When I run into a spit, I try to keep the fight fast, and use roll rate to my advantage whenever I can on every model other than the 16.
If I'm co-E with a Spixteen, I am generally in trouble unless I'm on the high side of a wide skill gap between me and the pilot. That's the situation I'm curious about.
Wiley.
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Any spit that isn't a spit16, scissors or E fight them if you have a faster plane.
Against spit16s, either E fight them if and only if you started with an E advantage. If you are equal or slower, throttle back and force an overshoot. Or, if you can outturn them (most can), do it.
Spits are extremely fragile, if you can force just one overshoot (pretty easy due to the monster acceleration), a single burst of .50s or a few cannon hits and they're down.
Against Spit9 and earlier - scissors or E fight.
Against spit14 or 16, turn fight or force overshoots.
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If I know I am fighting a competent spit pilot in the MA before I engage, I have a much better chance of killing him. If I assume I am fighting the "99%" of spit pilots, then he will probably catch me off guard and kill me.
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But still, the tactics you described are really more about beating the pilot, not the plane. A 'very well' flown spit is a rare thing. A 'decently' flown spit is still a tough nut to crack IMO.
I approach spits somewhat how Ink describes it in that I generally try to capitalize on the pilot's mistakes moreso than what the plane can do because for the most part, whatever my plane can do in a turnfight it can do better.
I'm interested in this thread as well, as I do alright BnZing spits to death, but I run into real trouble with most of them in a turnfight. When I run into a spit, I try to keep the fight fast, and use roll rate to my advantage whenever I can on every model other than the 16.
If I'm co-E with a Spixteen, I am generally in trouble unless I'm on the high side of a wide skill gap between me and the pilot. That's the situation I'm curious about.
Wiley.
that's because it is all about beating the pilot, the plane can do nothing on its own, so unless the pilot knows what he is doing the spit is an easy kill.
does not matter what the plane can do.....its what the pilot can make it do that matters....I know before the actual merge if they are good or not.
A good way to figure out how to beat something is to get in it and fly it, learn it so when you meet someone in the air you will know if they can make it do what it can do or not.
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that's because it is all about beating the pilot, the plane can do nothing on its own, so unless the pilot knows what he is doing the spit is an easy kill.
I disagree a bit with that statement. I see what you're getting at, but take an extreme example: It doesn't matter how good you are, you're not going to beat very many pilots flat turning a 190A8 with a Zeke, you've got to employ something the A8 does better than the Zeke to beat it.
Obviously that's a glaring example, but the same sort of logic applies even as the performance of the two planes gets closer together. The spixteen is a jack of all trades, kind of like the Ki-84. They do nothing spectacularly, but most things decently. Unless you've got something to beat them over the head with, like an E advantage or if they're much faster than you and still trying to turn with you so you have a maneuverability advantage, they're a tough nut to crack.
One of these tours I will probably sit down and try to learn the spixteen like you say. I agree flying something you have trouble against shows you in pretty short order where its weaknesses are. :)
Wiley.
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I disagree a bit with that statement. I see what you're getting at, but take an extreme example: It doesn't matter how good you are, you're not going to beat very many pilots flat turning a 190A8 with a Zeke, you've got to employ something the A8 does better than the Zeke to beat it.
Obviously that's a glaring example, but the same sort of logic applies even as the performance of the two planes gets closer together. The spixteen is a jack of all trades, kind of like the Ki-84. They do nothing spectacularly, but most things decently. Unless you've got something to beat them over the head with, like an E advantage or if they're much faster than you and still trying to turn with you so you have a maneuverability advantage, they're a tough nut to crack.
One of these tours I will probably sit down and try to learn the spixteen like you say. I agree flying something you have trouble against shows you in pretty short order where its weaknesses are. :)
Wiley.
how can you disagree? with out the pilot the plane just sits there and don't move :headscratch:
your example is not really a good one, I out flew a zero TnB on the deck....in the D9 or 152 been awhile don't quite remember :D
was also called a cheater because I out turned and killed 3 Brews slow on the deck in a 3vs1. while in KI
these are rare days when I am on and don't miss my shots...otherwise I normally miss my shots and eventually they drag me down....
it really does come down to the pilot....I have been fighting in these skies for about 7 years....not vulching or ganging....fighting the hoard..nothing but (not to say I have never vulched, but it is a very rare day someone pisses me off to the point I vulch them)..many many talk the talk but cant walk the walk...you see them in the MA surrounded by green guys..or high up on their perch only to come down when they are sure to get a kill.....but here on the boards they are talking about how much they fight :rofl
when you attack someone and have four friends with ya that aint no fight..except for the single.
non of this is directed at YOU...just my thoughts.
yes obviously some planes are better, but it takes the knowledge to use that performance...a total noob in the best plane,will get his arse handed to him by a vet in the worst fighter every time.
this is fact, can not be denied.... :old:
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your example is not really a good one, I out flew a zero TnB on the deck....in the D9 or 152 been awhile don't quite remember :D
Are you sure the guy wasn't afk? ;) As I stated, I'd be pretty shocked if it was done by flat turning, and I didn't say it was completely impossible, only that you're not going to get many guys like that.
a total noob in the best plane,will get his arse handed to him by a vet in the worst fighter every time.
Of course, but in fights between relatively equal average pilots, plane makes a difference.
Wiley.
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It doesn't matter how good you are, you're not going to beat very many pilots flat turning a 190A8 with a Zeke,
I'm sorry I missed the part where a good pilot thinks flat turning a 190 vs a Zeke is a good idea. It's only an example if it could really happen. ;)
If you consider the attributes of your aircraft vs whichever Spitfire is being considered, along with your energy states and the tactical situation, then the question of how to fight it should be pretty obvious. As Ink pointed out, the attributes of the pilot in the Spitfire may not be obvious, and that's where it gets interesting.
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I'm sorry I missed the part where a good pilot thinks flat turning a 190 vs a Zeke is a good idea. It's only an example if it could really happen. ;)
Well, if the plane doesn't matter, why can't you out flat-turn that Zeke if you're good enough? The plane dictates the choices you have to make. Some planes have more options than others. That's all I'm saying.
If you consider the attributes of your aircraft vs whichever Spitfire is being considered, along with your energy states and the tactical situation, then the question of how to fight it should be pretty obvious. As Ink pointed out, the attributes of the pilot in the Spitfire may not be obvious, and that's where it gets interesting.
Co-E with a P47-D11 vs Spit 16 at 10k, unmolested 1v1 nose on standard cold merge 'duel'. Pilots of identical skill and familiarity with their plane. What can the jug do in that situation other than bleed its E and eventually die?
Wiley.
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from above :devil
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from above :devil
Precisely my issue with Spits. I can deal with them if I have a club to use on them. I actually often do better if I'm starting from a LOWER E state than the spit than if I'm co-E.
That's why I'm interested in what one does with a co-E one.
Wiley.
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Well, if the plane doesn't matter, why can't you out flat-turn that Zeke if you're good enough? The plane dictates the choices you have to make. Some planes have more options than others. That's all I'm saying.
I don't recall saying that the plane doesn't matter but you seem to be paraphrasing my actual point as if I disagree with myself. :headscratch:
Co-E with a P47-D11 vs Spit 16 at 10k, unmolested 1v1 nose on standard cold merge 'duel'. Pilots of identical skill and familiarity with their plane. What can the jug do in that situation other than bleed its E and eventually die?
The Spitfire has a much harder time slowing down so the Jug sets up an overshoot and rails the Spit with 8 50's. What was an obvious disadvantage to you is used to advantage to win the fight.
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The Spitfire has a much harder time slowing down so the Jug sets up an overshoot and rails the Spit with 8 50's. What was an obvious disadvantage to you is used to advantage to win the fight.
If the spit is actually trying to slow down, the jug can still slow down faster? Hmp. I've never noticed it. I'll bear that in mind. Normally if I start trying to dump E and turn with a Spit he bleeds his E as necessary and uses his ability to regain E to lag turns me until I have nowhere to go.
Wiley.
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Co-E with a P47-D11 vs Spit 16 at 10k, unmolested 1v1 nose on standard cold merge 'duel'. Pilots of identical skill and familiarity with their plane. What can the jug do in that situation other than bleed its E and eventually die?
Wiley.
The spixteen has a HUGE advantage over the D11. Zoom him while avoiding the ho shots and maybe catch him with a high or low yoyo. If need be extend away and get him above the cloud layer so you have more room to work. Patience and smart flying usually pays off. Most spits get their kills by front shots after they turn back into you. Expect that and adjust you moves accordingly.
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If the spit is actually trying to slow down, the jug can still slow down faster? Hmp. I've never noticed it. I'll bear that in mind. Normally if I start trying to dump E and turn with a Spit he bleeds his E as necessary and uses his ability to regain E to lag turns me until I have nowhere to go.
Wiley.
Try describing that fight without talking about E. It might clarify the issues.
The spixteen has a HUGE advantage over the D11. Zoom him while avoiding the ho shots and maybe catch him with a high or low yoyo. If need be extend away and get him above the cloud layer so you have more room to work. Patience and smart flying usually pays off. Most spits get their kills by front shots after they turn back into you. Expect that and adjust you moves accordingly.
How does a D-11 out zoom a co-E Spit16?
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Spit 16's are usually flown by bad sticks so you can most likely get them slow and out turn them with no less than half the plane set.
If it's an 8 or 9 then you better have a good eye for what is going on and their energy state. If the Spit pilot is super aggressive you need to double bluff them and store more energy on the second merge or spiral climb so they go nose up and then stall it once you have bled them out. Ki84 / p38 / 109k4 are all perfect for this.
Spit 5 's extend and run away to bnz unless your in a zero / brew or other better turning aircraft.
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Are you sure the guy wasn't afk? ;) As I stated, I'd be pretty shocked if it was done by flat turning, and I didn't say it was completely impossible, only that you're not going to get many guys like that.
Of course, but in fights between relatively equal average pilots, plane makes a difference.
Wiley.
:rofl
no just a total noob, and I used some vert.....only noobs flat turn without adding some vert or dive.
and yes when it comes to equal pilots that is when the plane has more say in the out come. the closer in skill the pilots are the more the plane effects the out come.
equal pilots same plane its the one that makes a mistake first.....that is to say if they are equal in all aspects of dog fighting.
FLS good points, can you explain why the JUG slows down faster? my guess is the weight, same reason why it is harder to regain lost E. :headscratch:
these are what I find the most important to winning a duel
1st-AIM
2nd-knowledge of and ability, too utilize planes full potential
3rd-ability to judge E states
4th-proper timing of maneuvers
5th-SA
SA Blankets 3-4
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Try describing that fight without talking about E. It might clarify the issues.
Of course it's all situational, but in broad terms to try to force the overshoot, I'd be pulling higher G's for turns, using rudder to create drag, going nose high where possible in the scissors, deploying flaps as I'm able. Usually at some point in this unless the spit driver makes a mistake he uses his climb rate to get above me and it's all downhill from there.
I think I maybe need to revisit my tactics against Spits, as my abilities have changed a fair bit since I thought about it analytically.
Wiley.
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Try describing that fight without talking about E. It might clarify the issues.
How does a D-11 out zoom a co-E Spit16?
:headscratch: oh great ...i have to debate flying with a trainer. I should probably not do this :lol
anyhoo what i mean is seeing as how i'm of the opinion that jugs out dive spits, I would go nose down just enough to keep him interested and slowly go back up until I had some kind of advantage under or above him. Granted I don't fly the D11 but rather looking at this problem from the seat of a 51.
Am I wrong into thinking a P47 can dive away, extend 2or3k and come back with just as much alt and speed as the spit? This is an interesting matchup but I just can't accept that the jug has no other options but die to a co-alt spixteen. Maybe this is why I die alot ........
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Of course it's all situational, but in broad terms to try to force the overshoot, I'd be pulling higher G's for turns, using rudder to create drag, going nose high where possible in the scissors, deploying flaps as I'm able. Usually at some point in this unless the spit driver makes a mistake he uses his climb rate to get above me and it's all downhill from there.
I think I maybe need to revisit my tactics against Spits, as my abilities have changed a fair bit since I thought about it analytically.
Wiley.
hey man the best way to learn is to do....join up with the DFC ladder we start a new season soon, some of the best fights are waiting for ya :aok
all the thinking wont amount to crap if you don't put it into practice.
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hey man the best way to learn is to do....join up with the DFC ladder we start a new season soon, some of the best fights are waiting for ya :aok
all the thinking wont amount to crap if you don't put it into practice.
+1
Textbooks are for nerds! practice what you preach one must!
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+1
Textbooks are for nerds! practice what you preach one must!
good idea.....time to kill some red guys :t
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Spits have inherent weaknesses, but they are not easily exploited. The two main weaknesses (actually they go together) I try to exploit are, their lack of a very usefull flap setting, and their inability to drop speed very fast becouse of this. I'm a hog guy, so my aircraft excells at their weaknesses, and their strengths are normally my weaknesses. I'll normally work on dragging a spit into any sort of scissors or stall fighting contest (my strengths), especially the later models, if I can't gain the advanatage otherwise. The key is to be very aggressive early and kill them before they get the chance to use thier superior E-building ability against you and get on top of the fight. Once they get the high ground a hog is in trouble. Of course I'm only going to try and work this angle if I can't gain the high ground early to start with. If no advantage can be gained on the first couple merges it normally ends up as a stall fight or rolling scissors anyway. The key is to keep them defensive enough that they don't have time to build up enough E to get back above you once the fight gets slow. A good spit pilot works for the opposite, trying not to get tied down and using it's superior E building to get above the fight, where a hog has a hard time building E quickly, so it's always trying to play catch up to the spits E state once the spit gets a little room to extend. The hog has the E building disadvantage against a lot of planes in the plane set, this is why I spend so much time with my students working to gain the high ground early in their fights. This is especially true against planes like the spit and 109 series which have very good E building abilities.
:salute
BigRat
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Ink the Jug just has more drag, I believe both parasitic and induced, than the Spitfire so if you cut power and maneuver with both the Jug slows down faster.
It's also heavier but the key difference is the greater excess power of the Spitfire which gives it better acceleration, a better climb rate, and better turn performance. Weight by itself is not a problem as long as you have the power to move it.
Uptown I just thought you missed the co-E part, other than that I agree with you.
Wiley when we talk about energy it's usually speed and altitude even though mass and fuel are also included. Referring to E in a general fashion does not help us compare the specific aircraft attributes that a pilot has to keep in mind. Hence my earlier statement that comparing specific attributes points to the tactics you need to use.
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FLS good points, can you explain why the JUG slows down faster? my guess is the weight, same reason why it is harder to regain lost E.
Weight directly affect momentum which is an objects ability to resist changes in velocity. Think of it this way, heavy is hard to get going but once it gets going she don't wanna stop. The jug just suffers from serious drag, if it weren't for the weight it would hemmorage E instead of just bleed it.
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FLS wouldn't the D11 have a much smaller turning circle than the 16 with all the flaps out?
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If the D-11 has full flaps out the radius is slightly smaller than the Spit16 with no flaps but the turn rate would be much slower. Smaller radius is an advantage turning nose to nose but the Spit still has all it's options at that point and the Jug is stuck in a slow turn.
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Ink- I've been thinking about it,I just am not quite sure I can commit to it.
FLS- it could be I just didn't have the familiarity to get the overshoot early on and assumed it just wasn't possible. The comment from Big Rat makes a lot of sense, about finishing it fast.
Wiley.
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unless the spit driver makes a mistake he uses his climb rate to get above me and it's all downhill from there.
Key. No spit should get drawn into an overshoot - he just goes up instead.
Then, as you point out, you're toast.
- oldman (unless you're in a Frank and can go up, too)
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Weight directly affect momentum which is an objects ability to resist changes in velocity. Think of it this way, heavy is hard to get going but once it gets going she don't wanna stop. The jug just suffers from serious drag, if it weren't for the weight it would hemmorage E instead of just bleed it.
I think you're forgetting that the lift has to balance the weight. As you reduce the weight you reduce the induced drag since you need less lift. You're probably just considering the parasitic drag.
FLS- it could be I just didn't have the familiarity to get the overshoot early on and assumed it just wasn't possible. The comment from Big Rat makes a lot of sense, about finishing it fast.
Wiley.
It's about your only chance in that situation Wiley and if the bandit anticipates your move it's not going to work. Of course you should never underestimate the ability of people to screw up. :lol
BTW you don't have to join the ladder to duel people. Just ask.
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BTW you don't have to join the ladder to duel people. Just ask.
This is true. What the ladder provides is a framework where duelists are gathered together. For me, I don't have to worry about encroaching on someone else's "play time". I know that the ladder participants are interested in dueling without having to ask. Challenge instead!
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I think you're forgetting that the lift has to balance the weight. As you reduce the weight you reduce the induced drag since you need less lift. You're probably just considering the parasitic drag.
making no assumptions. Just commenting on the way it is, not on a what could be.
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making no assumptions. Just commenting on the way it is, not on a what could be.
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant your comment was incorrect, if it was lighter you would lose less energy not more.
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Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant your comment was incorrect, if it was lighter you would lose less energy not more.
maneuvering, yes.
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Precisely my issue with Spits. I can deal with them if I have a club to use on them. I actually often do better if I'm starting from a LOWER E state than the spit than if I'm co-E.
That's why I'm interested in what one does with a co-E one.
Wiley.
It may sound too obvious, and maybe even snide... But...
Don't leave it co-E. If you do better with more or less E than him, change your E.
Personally, I'm almost always going to do my best to retain (or create) and E-advantage over a spit, right up until the time I need to dump a little for a sure kill-shot. Like Rat, I'm a hog flyer, and although I'm comfortable having less E than a spit, I always try to keep or build my E, figuring that I can easily dump it to change tactics if needed.
I'll also almost always try to make it appear that I have less E than I actually do, trying to bait my opponent into dumping his own to turn with me. I do that by adjusting angles though, not by dumping my own E. It's not at all uncommon for me to fight a spit that's initially higher and faster than me, and for me to then have an E-advantage over him shortly thereafter.
Of course it's all situational, but in broad terms to try to force the overshoot, I'd be pulling higher G's for turns, using rudder to create drag, going nose high where possible in the scissors, deploying flaps as I'm able. Usually at some point in this unless the spit driver makes a mistake he uses his climb rate to get above me and it's all downhill from there.
I think I maybe need to revisit my tactics against Spits, as my abilities have changed a fair bit since I thought about it analytically.
Wiley.
I just want to point out that this is NOT what I'd do to create an overshoot. In broad terms, I'd never try to do it that way, unless I was desperate and in big trouble. It takes away too many options.
Do it with angles, rather than trying to do it by slowing down. Once you create the overshoot, you'll want to be fast enough to kill your opponent. If you're too slow that won't happen.
I'll agree with the nose high in the scissors part, for two reasons. One, is position, the second is so that I can come back down again (build speed, retain E). I'll also agree that I use flaps, but I'm NOT using them to slow down (that's just an unpleasant by-product).
Finishing the fight fast is vital. The longer it drags out the more problems you'll have; both with the guy you're killing and the next one(s) along...
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maneuvering, yes.
I don't understand your point. Do you mean that while turning it would have less drag but flying straight and level it wouldn't have less drag even though it still requires less lift?
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I don't understand your point. Do you mean that while turning it would have less drag but flying straight and level it wouldn't have less drag even though it still requires less lift?
no.
you have two identical objects, except one has more mass. You move them along the same vector, the heavier one will travel longer than the lighter one once power is removed.
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I'll also almost always try to make it appear that I have less E than I actually do, trying to bait my opponent into dumping his own to turn with me. I do that by adjusting angles though, not by dumping my own E. It's not at all uncommon for me to fight a spit that's initially higher and faster than me, and for me to then have an E-advantage over him shortly thereafter.
If I may ask, any direction on how you would implement this against a higher faster Spit? I would appreciate it.
Might be relevant to other planes too, not just the hog, so hopefully not too much of a hijack.
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no.
you have two identical objects, except one has more mass. You move them along the same vector, the heavier one will travel longer than the lighter one once power is removed.
That's not correct in the case of aircraft. If all else is equal a heavier aircraft will glide the same distance as a lighter aircraft but it will glide faster.
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That's not correct in the case of aircraft. If all else is equal a heavier aircraft will glide the same distance as a lighter aircraft but it will glide faster.
I'm not seeing where the the physics is different here. What makes inertia behave differently in AC than in everything else?
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I know it seems counter intuitive but as I mentioned earlier, in both cases the weight is balanced by the lift, more weight requires more lift and increasing lift increases drag.
If the aircraft were on the ground and not flying then, all else being equal, the heavier aircraft would roll farther just as you'd expect.
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I just want to point out that this is NOT what I'd do to create an overshoot. In broad terms, I'd never try to do it that way, unless I was desperate and in big trouble. It takes away too many options.
Do it with angles, rather than trying to do it by slowing down. Once you create the overshoot, you'll want to be fast enough to kill your opponent. If you're too slow that won't happen.
I just had one of those 'now why didn't I think of that?' moments. I use angles instead of slowing down when I'm at higher speed than the bandit offensively, it never occurred to me to do it defensively. That's going to make a big difference. Thanks.
Wiley.
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I try to only BNZ a spit (depends on bird but usually im in 205 lately so bnz it is hehe). If I see a spit with greater E than I do, I attempt to avoid him until I have the superior energy...if he forces the issue, usually you can nose down to get the spit to chase you through higher speeds, then roll around him as he passes through. If he is good and regulates his energy properly it can be utter hell though.
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I've been reading this with interest,it seems to me no one mentioned to turn the spit left!
The 16 with it's clipped wings tends to drop the left wing sooner than most spits.Forcing your enemy to turn left is forcing him to work against the torque and it's more likely he/she will stall the left wing and roll out of the turn.
Awhile back a well known B38 pilot came to me and said he was having all kinds of trouble with the 16 so I hopped in 1 and put him through a few paces. He tended to turn right,even though his B38 can turn both ways equally!
As soon as I pointed this out and got him going left he quickly gained ground on me as the 16 just couldnt hang in those right turns. A couple days latter he showed up and said thx,so simple but effective!
Personally I try to use the spits abilities against itself,nose down make it pick up speed,roll right and try to force a barrelroll reversal. If that doesnt work,you can always shoot them in the face! :devil
:salute
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Good point Morf, not just for P-38s but also the aircraft with opposite prop rotation.
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I'm glad I came back to this. But what is a barrelroll reversal ? You mean attempt to get the spit to overshoot with a barrelroll?
I had an encounter with a spixteen today where I was on the deck in a 51D at around 225/250 IAS when on my high 6 about 1K away I noticed him dropping down for me. So rather then turn,figuring he'd just turn inside of me and keep me turning until i was too slow, I straightened out and tried to get as fast as i could to create some kind of separation. He got within 400 and stayed there for several minutes, all the while I'm rolling, wing dips and juking to avoid his rounds. Finally i stretch the distance to 1000 and he breaks off.
Then afterwards I get the "typical running 51" insults. My question is, what else could I have done in that situation? Seems to me I used my plane's strength's i.e. speed, instead of playing into his hand by turning with him.
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If I may ask, any direction on how you would implement this against a higher faster Spit? I would appreciate it.
Might be relevant to other planes too, not just the hog, so hopefully not too much of a hijack.
Sure, it's relevant to the situation, so it's relevant to any plane type.
There's nothing special about the spits, and even if there was it's the pilot you need to beat, not the plane. There are very few players who can really bring out everything any plane has to offer, so if you go with the idea that you need to beat a player, or a situation, you'll be ready for the vast majority of fights. You may need to "fine tune" your tactics for a specific plane type, or you may not... Primarily when I "fine tune" I'm just adjusting the size/speed/timing of my maneuvers, rather than using different maneuvers.
I'm a hog flyer because it's the only plane that has enough visual appeal to interest me for an entire sortie. I play AH to fly F4U's. I'll admit it though, I do benefit from the fact that the hog is the absolute best plane in the game. F4U's are faster than Spits, so IMO, they control the fight (unless the F4U screws up). Since the spit really cannot catch me, he cannot "control" me, and cannot "dictate" the terms of a fight unless I let him. Essentially, I have to screw up to get killed by a spit (which definitely does happen, btw). Anyway...
I personally find it easier to take the spits advantage away if I start in the lower "disadvantaged" state. I think this is in large part due to the mental game. He "knows" he has excess E, so can afford (and will probably need to) scrub some of it to kill me. He knows that, and is ready for it, so it makes it easier for me to make him do it. If my maneuvering and timing are "right", he's going to scrub that E and end up in front of me at the same time, and then die for his trouble. Against a lower/slower spit though, it's the opposite situation. He "knows" he's already disadvantaged, and needs to hold his speed as best he can. It's going to be a little tougher for me to get him in front of me for a shot.
So, the higher spit...
This guy can be "temporarily" dangerous, because he has the ability to catch me (his height makes him faster than me, so he can actually dictate/control the fight if I let him). I need to take away his speed advantage, and the quicker I can do it the better.
There are really two possible scenarios here. He either attacks, or he doesn't. Assuming he attacks, he's going to catch you and force you to do something. If that happens, you're already in trouble.
To avoid this problem, you have to stop the spit from forcing you to do anything. You may not be able to stop him from catching you, but you can stop him from forcing you to do something.
Defeating the higher spit begins with SA (you cannot afford to get caught off-guard) and then moves into "forming a plan", followed by executing it (with some "tweaking" at times). IMO, if you get caught and are forced to do something, the root cause of your death is lack of SA (you didn't detect/recognize the threat/situation/change) in time. Following that, you may need work in knowing effective tactics (and recognizing when to apply them), or if you know them, you may need work in timing them or executing them.
So, here comes the spit...
I have two choices- let him catch me and force me to turn, or else turn and let him catch me. Personally, I'm going to turn first, while I still have some options. If I turn early I can avoid a hard, energy-sapping break turn. I'm making the turn on my "own time"; I'm not being forced. I'm not being controlled. My opponent is not dictating the terms of the fight.
He's still coming and I'm still turning, but now I'm dictating the angle-off of his approach. He began this fight fully in control. I'm now beginning to take that control away a piece at a time.
I have to go do some brush-clearing at a local Boy Scout camp, I'll be back to finish this later.
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I'm glad I came back to this. But what is a barrelroll reversal ? You mean attempt to get the spit to overshoot with a barrelroll?
I had an encounter with a spixteen today where I was on the deck in a 51D at around 225/250 IAS when on my high 6 about 1K away I noticed him dropping down for me. So rather then turn,figuring he'd just turn inside of me and keep me turning until i was too slow, I straightened out and tried to get as fast as i could to create some kind of separation. He got within 400 and stayed there for several minutes, all the while I'm rolling, wing dips and juking to avoid his rounds. Finally i stretch the distance to 1000 and he breaks off.
Then afterwards I get the "typical running 51" insults. My question is, what else could I have done in that situation? Seems to me I used my plane's strength's i.e. speed, instead of playing into his hand by turning with him.
At your speed with the Spit16 going faster than you the Spit would likely not be able to match your initial turn rate or radius but if you don't hit it before you become defensive again after the first overshoot and your speed is lower then you'll have a harder time extending away to reset the fight.
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Speed and overshoot. Spits are like F-16s in that they can pull some serious Gs, great turn rate. Most Spit drivers want to pull high Gs, they are begging to pull high Gs, they don't think it's a real fight unless they pull 9 Gs. The overshoot helps them get what they want, which is to dump tons of E...I mean pull Gs.
Ink et al have some great thoughts on how to do it.
Boo
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Good point Morf, not just for P-38s but also the aircraft with opposite prop rotation.
Darn dislexia, I meant turn the spit right in my first sentance! Of course this would be opposite if it's a spit14,yak or tyffie/temp.
:salute
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Darn dislexia, I meant turn the spit right in my first sentance! Of course this would be opposite if it's a spit14,yak or tyffie/temp.
:salute
THANKS! you know how many spit fights I lost today???? :furious
:P
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After rereading my first post.... :o I got that totally backwards!
First off the P38 driver had a habit of turning left even though it dosent matter which way you turn a 38 because of lack of torque so I suggested he force the spit16's to turn right against it;s torque.
Unfortunately for me I have a difficult time telling left from right and often get them mixed up!
I hope that clears that up...... :o
:salute
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THANKS! you know how many spit fights I lost today???? :furious
:P
I dont believe you at all!! :devil
Did I tell you I cant tell up from down either?
:salute
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I dont believe you at all!! :devil
Did I tell you I cant tell up from down either?
:salute
Follow Guppy's 38 for a bit. He'll show you "down" and you should be able to figure out up from there. :devil
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Funny part is I seem to do ok in slow fights against most 16s because they'll drop a wing faster then the old 38G. Seems like most Spit drivers forget that vertical bit and get into flat turning fights.
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After rereading my first post.... :o I got that totally backwards!
First off the P38 driver had a habit of turning left even though it dosent matter which way you turn a 38 because of lack of torque so I suggested he force the spit16's to turn right against it;s torque.
Unfortunately for me I have a difficult time telling left from right and often get them mixed up!
I hope that clears that up...... :o
:salute
I explain this very thing to people as well. Not just against Spits, but against any plane. Make them work against their torque, or with it, depending on what you want to do.
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stop "thinking" about it and just react.
what did Bruce say.....Practice Practice Practice...and you wont have to think about it, it will do it all on its own.
get out there and fight, avoid the HO attack at all costs,(except 262 they deserve to be HOed :D) never back down, never run.
merge with them so you get a shot but deny them one, if they are rolled to the right....roll to the left into them, and vice versa....
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Okay folks...you are in a 47N @8K and see a spitwhatever co-alt at 3k away. Describe to me what I should do. I'm not backing down or running as i have been practicing for 6 years now just as Master Lee said. I nosed under on the merge to avoid the ho shot and the spitfire just did a imbelman as he crossed my 6/9 line. Now what? Do the same and watch as he turns inside of me? Yes, I'm a brave fighter sitting in the tower as the spitfire basks in the glory of his victory. :bhead
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Okay people...you are in a 47N @8K and see a spitwhatever co-alt at 3k away. Describe to me what I should do. I'm not backing down or running. The spitfire just did a imbelman as he crossed my 6/9 line. Now what?
if you are only seeing him at 3k need to practice SA....
where did he come from?
did he drop to that ALT, or climb up to it? same for you, how did you get to that ALT?
whats the E states?
how fast are you?
whats his guesstimated speed?
how is he merging with ya?
does he pull in tight to ya?
or does he do a Lazy merge?
how much fuel you got left?
any other cons around?
as you approach if he goes nose down he is most likely trying to grab speed...but not always I will De-throttle fully as I am merging with someone...I will try to get below his nose and then once there pull up into him or roll away so as we cross/merge I am already more then half way turned into his direction of flight....
if his merge is lazy and its in the MA take the shot that will be a close Ho but he still wont have guns...
if he is going hard nose down I may firewall the throttle and do a hard climb, which will scrub some speed but allow to pull inside the same way from below just going down instead of up.
there are so many variables.....that's what is great about dogfighting NO two fights are ever the same.
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AH HA Grasshopper! So there is much more to a dogfight then just reacting. :joystick:
you got time to practice in the next hr or so?
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AH HA Grasshopper! So there is much more to a dogfight then just reacting. :joystick:
you got time to practice in the next hr or so?
no, gonna go to bed with the wife in a bit...but I can make it any night if I know in advance.
and yes there is so much more to it...but the more you do it, the more it becomes "reaction"
you should sign up for the ladder, lots of great sticks that can not refuse to fight, unless they have a challenge all ready.
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I've thought about that dueling league man, but I just ain't got the skill to be any good at it. I'd just be constantly clubbed all the time then get pissed off about the whole deal. I try to learn some stuff on my own in the DA but those guys want to fly F4U-4s and such and drop in with a 10k alt advantage then brag about how uber they are. So the DA thing is starting to get real old. :frown:
I ran into pervert in the TA awhile ago and I was just embarrassing myself. He was flying circles around me as all the dueler guys do. He tried to show me a few things but he didn't have a mic, which made it even more frustrating for me. I just can't figure out what I'm doing wrong or how to fix it.
I've got the b&z thing down just fine, but when to comes down to getting down and dirty I feel like a 2 week noobie sometimes. I don't know man. I've been playing this game for 6 years now and I'm been wondering for the last couple, if I've ever get over this hump. I even attended the BFM clinic Rolex put on the other day, but it just pretty much covered stuff I already know.
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I've thought about that dueling league man, but I just ain't got the skill to be any good at it. I'd just be constantly clubbed all the time then get pissed off about the whole deal. I try to learn some stuff on my own in the DA but those guys want to fly F4U-4s and such and drop in with a 10k alt advantage then brag about how uber they are. So the DA thing is starting to get real old. :frown:
I ran into pervert in the TA awhile ago and I was just embarrassing myself. He was flying circles around me as all the dueler guys do. He tried to show me a few things but he didn't have a mic, which made it even more frustrating for me. I just can't figure out what I'm doing wrong or how to fix it.
I've got the b&z thing down just fine, but when to comes down to getting down and dirty I feel like a 2 week noobie sometimes. I don't know man. I've been playing this game for 6 years now and I'm been wondering for the last couple, if I've ever get over this hump. I even attended the BFM clinic Rolex put on the other day, but it just pretty much covered stuff I already know.
well the only way to get better is to play/fight against someone better, that goes with anything....
I have a mic...if you want later today or tonight we can go to TA....and go through some paces, the TA is definitely a better place to get some good fights without having to worry about rerolling each time.
you say you have the BnZ part down, this may be the issue, you have gotten so used to that style that the TnB is so foreign....
which planes do you enjoy?
guessing..47...51...190...all great planes, and do what they are supposed to do exceptionally well, but trying to use a hammer to screw in a screw....dont get ya far...so first thing you gotta do is choose a plane that fits the role of TnB better...obviously I would suggest the KI-84...but I am a bit biased to that bird....
then we will hit the TA roll from same field and turn back in before the runway ends and keep the fighting above the field.....
my memory is bad someone suggested that and it actually works great to get used to flying on the edge of a stall, and pushing it so you can control that stall....
as far as the dueling league goes, really man its not about chest thumping and ego's...just good fights and learning as much as possible.
you say you get angry, that could be an issue also...anger gets in the way of a free thinking mind, and wont allow you to react naturally....
something to work on...
ya gotta say screw it I am gonna die and just don't give a crap.
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Tnx for the quick reply Ink. I've been playing around with the 109F and G6 in the attempt to adjust my style and get better. The KI84 is definitely a plane I have trouble with in the MA and really should get in one, if for no other reason then see what it can and can't do from the drivers POV. I haven't flown one in a few years. I ended up parking it because the damned elevators would blow clean off everytime I tried to dive like I would in a 51 or 47 :lol. I'll try to give you a holla today or this evening to see if ya have some time. And thanks for the willingness to help me out. I appreciate it. :salute
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Whats with all this talk and details and etc etc? Your all just repeating the same stuff but in the inverse of eachother.
Look, you want to approach a spit? You First *HO* it; wether or not your planning to fire doesn't matter, but *always* go for the HO to see what kind of a pilot they are.
Someone flying a spitfire is like the someone in your school who grew up with a huge trust fund behind his/her name. They have the ability to always do much more then you without having to do as much work.
Now, someone in that position can usually only fall to one thing: Arrogance. The fact that life seems so easy to them, and quite frankly, it is; means that sometimes they expect their position as flying a spit to account for their mistakes. That is when you strike, fighting a spit is mainly a mental battle and if you can trick him into falling into his own weaknesses, you have him.
But if your really unlucky: They understand how much of an envelope over you they have and aptly apply it, thus; either you die within a very short period of time or you somehow run away (while taking a load of damage).
This is assuming co-alt of course, and even-steven energy states.
The spit is just *that* good, and has always been, because it really is that good of a design.
Peace out.
:airplane:
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Whats with all this talk and details and etc etc? Your all just repeating the same stuff but in the inverse of eachother.
Look, you want to approach a spit? You First *HO* it; wether or not your planning to fire doesn't matter, but *always* go for the HO to see what kind of a pilot they are.
Someone flying a spitfire is like the someone in your school who grew up with a huge trust fund behind his/her name. They have the ability to always do much more then you without having to do as much work.
Now, someone in that position can usually only fall to one thing: Arrogance. The fact that life seems so easy to them, and quite frankly, it is; means that sometimes they expect their position as flying a spit to account for their mistakes. That is when you strike, fighting a spit is mainly a mental battle and if you can trick him into falling into his own weaknesses, you have him.
But if your really unlucky: They understand how much of an envelope over you they have and aptly apply it, thus; either you die within a very short period of time or you somehow run away (while taking a load of damage).
This is assuming co-alt of course, and even-steven energy states.
The spit is just *that* good, and has always been, because it really is that good of a design.
Peace out.
:airplane:
:huh You're the reason we have dweebs HOing all over the place. Stop HOing and learn ACM and guess what....*gasp* you can actually beat the Spit! Like...zOMG! I have to use rudder and throttle? zOMG!
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Look, you want to approach a spit? You First *HO* it; wether or not your planning to fire doesn't matter, but *always* go for the HO to see what kind of a pilot they are.
then I would collide into you :devil have to agree with titanic :salute oh and btw I enjoy the spit9
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uptown,
Set some time up with me. My best times are around 9 central time evenings. I still have Tuesdays open. There's a lot into merging that can't all be discussed in posting, it takes repetition and training. When I normally start with a student I work through some basic merges, getting the fundementals down first. Then start working on the what if's. Work with me long enough and I've pretty much thrown everything at you that you will see here and how to counter it. I also like to point out the why nots to bad merges. Warning: I do give homework :devil
PM me if interested
:salute
BigRat
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uptown,
Set some time up with me. My best times are around 9 central time evenings. I still have Tuesdays open. There's a lot into merging that can't all be discussed in posting, it takes repetition and training. When I normally start with a student I work through some basic merges, getting the fundementals down first. Then start working on the what if's. Work with me long enough and I've pretty much thrown everything at you that you will see here and how to counter it. I also like to point out the why nots to bad merges. Warning: I do give homework :devil
PM me if interested
:salute
BigRat
Awesome! Pencil me in for Tuesdays @ 9cst then. And I welcome the homework :D :salute
@ Ink: I'm going to log in at 7pm cst tonight. Will that time work for you?
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Awesome! Pencil me in for Tuesdays @ 9cst then. And I welcome the homework :D :salute
@ Ink: I'm going to log in at 7pm cst tonight. Will that time work for you?
Awesome! Pencil me in for Tuesdays @ 9cst then. And I welcome the homework :D :salute
@ Ink: I'm going to log in at 7pm cst tonight. Will that time work for you?
8 for me, sounds good see ya in TA :salute
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Right on! :aok
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Whats with all this talk and details and etc etc? Your all just repeating the same stuff but in the inverse of eachother.
Look, you want to approach a spit? You First *HO* it; wether or not your planning to fire doesn't matter, but *always* go for the HO to see what kind of a pilot they are.
Someone flying a spitfire is like the someone in your school who grew up with a huge trust fund behind his/her name. They have the ability to always do much more then you without having to do as much work.
Now, someone in that position can usually only fall to one thing: Arrogance. The fact that life seems so easy to them, and quite frankly, it is; means that sometimes they expect their position as flying a spit to account for their mistakes. That is when you strike, fighting a spit is mainly a mental battle and if you can trick him into falling into his own weaknesses, you have him.
But if your really unlucky: They understand how much of an envelope over you they have and aptly apply it, thus; either you die within a very short period of time or you somehow run away (while taking a load of damage).
This is assuming co-alt of course, and even-steven energy states.
The spit is just *that* good, and has always been, because it really is that good of a design.
Peace out.
:airplane:
wrong on so many levels.
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He's still coming and I'm still turning, but now I'm dictating the angle-off of his approach. He began this fight fully in control. I'm now beginning to take that control away a piece at a time.
Continued...
Turn back toward the spit before he makes you do it. Conserve your E, while setting him up to burn his own.
I like to do it with a right hand-slightly nose-down turn (conserving my speed) but I'll adjust things to be at the speed and angle of approach I want. I want to be lower than my opponent, with him diving down at me from my forward upper-right. I want him to be diving in steeply. As he comes in, I just wait until he hits the 800-1000 range, and then pull up, rolling left enough to show him my side but not my wings in profile.. If he goes for the shot he shoots behind/under me. As he passes me I roll left and either drop in behind him or else make an easy turn away from him (depending on his speed). I make my initial turn to the right because it allows me to roll over the top to the left which is easier for me, but also allows me to drop right in behind him if I want to.
I do that maneuvering at a pace that allows me to hold my speed, or easily regain it by dropping my nose. On that initial merge he can either dive in steeply or he can shift gears and fly by (to reverse at some point and try to set up on me again).
If he dives in steeply, he's going to go under me and then either pull up steeply to try to regain his perch, or else zoom away. If he pulls up steeply, he's going to burn a substantial amount of his E and will be in a less-advantageous position than he started in. I'll have removed another component of his control over me.
I'm still dictating how he approaches me. He only gets to choose yes or no, attack or not.
If he refuses to dive in steeply (or if he zooms away as he passes by) I'm going to extend away and let him get on my tail, but I'm going to stay fast. Either way, if he lets me get 2K of horizontal separation and then tries to catch me, he's about shot his advantage over me. I'm in a faster plane and I'll hold even with him, and then pull away. I'll just reverse back and become the aggressor, or I'll rope him, or else I'll adjust my angle to allow him to catch me (I'll be fast, but since he's catching me this can help convince him I have less E than I really do. If I want to do that, I do everything I can to reach full speed without pulling away to more than 1.5K or so...
If he dives in steeply and then pulls back up hard, I may flirt with him and see if I can draw him into a rolling scissors. That's not usually too difficult, since the spit driver often thinks he can out turn me (which he can do if I get too slow, especially if I let things degrade into a lufberry.) If he's got a bit more speed than I do though, it's a very very bad idea for him to enter a rolling scissors with me.
If he stays too far away to draw into a rolling scissors, I'll just point my nose down a bit, and away from him, to maximize the amount he has to reverse back. That will conserve my E, while burning his. I won't dive away though, I don't want to get away. I want to get my speed up but still allow him to catch up again. I'll almost always be able to draw him into a rolling scissors at this point.
Generally, in a worst-case scenario, I'll only have to survive two or three of his dive attacks before I'm able to remove his E-advantage. At that point I'll have several options, but I'll no longer be in any real danger unless I just plane screw up.
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Anyone have a diagram of a Luftberry or can explain it to me? I don't know what that is.
And good stuff there MtnMan :salute
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Anyone have a diagram of a Luftberry or can explain it to me? I don't know what that is.
And good stuff there MtnMan :salute
This looks like a good discussion: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?topic=262028.0
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pfff so that's a luftberry? I always called that the "dork flies in a circle" move. :lol I guess Luftberry sounds more professional :D
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pfff so that's a luftberry? I always called that the "dork flies in a circle" move. :lol I guess Luftberry sounds more professional :D
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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Luftberry doesn't really work if the other is a good shot. Matter of fact...I can't think of a situation where it'll work at all. Keep making passes until the luftberry dies.
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pfff so that's a luftberry? I always called that the "dork flies in a circle" move. :lol I guess Luftberry sounds more professional :D
Raoul Lufbery was a WW1 ace. The defensive circle he popularized was flown by a squad so each aircraft was protected by the aircraft behind it. The term is currently used to describe any extended circle fight between 2 aircraft.
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Raoul Lufbery was a WW1 ace. The defensive circle he popularized was flown by a squad so each aircraft was protected by the aircraft behind it. The term is currently used to describe any extended circle fight between 2 aircraft.
The North Vietnamese or Koreans did that as well from what I understand. But the American pilots called it a Wagon Wheel IIRC.
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Continued...
Turn back toward the spit before he makes you do it. Conserve your E, while setting him up to burn his own.
I like to do it with a right hand-slightly nose-down turn (conserving my speed) but I'll adjust things to be at the speed and angle of approach I want. I want to be lower than my opponent, with him diving down at me from my forward upper-right. I want him to be diving in steeply. As he comes in, I just wait until he hits the 800-1000 range, and then pull up, rolling left enough to show him my side but not my wings in profile.. If he goes for the shot he shoots behind/under me. As he passes me I roll left and either drop in behind him or else make an easy turn away from him (depending on his speed). I make my initial turn to the right because it allows me to roll over the top to the left which is easier for me, but also allows me to drop right in behind him if I want to.
..snip
Aha. I think I see one of my mistakes right there. I haven't been pulling up to avoid the shot as much as I'm going straight into the barrel roll there, so unless he cooperates all I'm doing is making him miss and not much else.
Thanks Mtnman, appreciate it.
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I like to get them in close, then because the k4 can change e states faster, I'll change my e state and suddenly slow down (with a barrel roll reversal) forcing an overshoot and try to pop them with a tater.
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Awesome! Pencil me in for Tuesdays @ 9cst then. And I welcome the homework :D :salute
@ Ink: I'm going to log in at 7pm cst tonight. Will that time work for you?
See you tonight :aok
:salute
BigRat
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stop "thinking" about it and just react.
what did Bruce say.....Practice Practice Practice...and you wont have to think about it, it will do it all on its own.
get out there and fight, avoid the HO attack at all costs,(except 262 they deserve to be HOed :D) never back down, never run.
merge with them so you get a shot but deny them one, if they are rolled to the right....roll to the left into them, and vice versa....
Ink, your first comment is fine if your at the stage when things come instinctive but most aren't at that stage. The average pilot in AH is in the cognitive stage where they still have to think what to do next.
This is what makes the learning curve so steep,like any sport you must practice,practice,practice until thing start to happen automatically. Your obviously at the instinctive stage so it's easy for you to say and think like that,however it can take the average player a few years to get there.
Oh did I mention PRACTICE!!!! :D
:salute
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Ink, your first comment is fine if your at the stage when things come instinctive but most aren't at that stage. The average pilot in AH is in the cognitive stage where they still have to think what to do next.
This is what makes the learning curve so steep,like any sport you must practice,practice,practice until thing start to happen automatically. Your obviously at the instinctive stage so it's easy for you to say and think like that,however it can take the average player a few years to get there.
Oh did I mention PRACTICE!!!! :D
:salute
you must have noticed that at some point the plane tells you what it wants to do?
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See you tonight :aok
:salute
BigRat
i was just coming here to say the same thing :aok :salute
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i was just coming here to say the same thing :aok :salute
by the way what plane do you want to work with (in case it's something I'm rusty in I can get in some flight time first :lol)?
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KI84,109F, 109G6, or any 38 would be my picks but whatever you suggest would be fine and dandy with me.
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tips for engaging the spitfire:
1) NEVER take them lightly if you're unsure of the pilot skill level. If you take it lightly, you'll get sloppy, if you get sloppy, you end up slightly dead.
2) see what advantages you have, be it speed, climb, turning, a relative E advantage, and use it. If you don't have one, then make one.
3 (2 cont.)) if you're a bit leery of your odds, back off; wait and reposition, make your odds more favorable.
4) if you are BEING engaged, decide if you can make him react to what you do inside of a minute; if you can't, then high-tail it out of there. Theres no shame in running, and besides, if its not running, its denying a kill to that "skill-less putz in the crutch ride".
5) remember speed, spits turn less and less well as the speeds increase. In a hard spiral dive, planes like the P-40 out turn a spitfire. Just set a floor altitude to stop at, so you don't blow all your E.
6) if suspicious of the spitfire, you should be: its a freaking spitfire; expect, and prepare for, some BS move that kicks your feet out from under you. When the ~99% of spitfires you will encounter totaly botch the job, and drop infront of your guns, you're always plesanty suprised.
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Spits in the rolling scissors make easy kills. Use angles to make distance between you and the spit, chop throttle kick rudder to aim and shoot! Brewsters on the other hand... :joystick:
This is when I'm in a 109 or 190.
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Spits in the rolling scissors make easy kills. Use angles to make distance between you and the spit, chop throttle kick rudder to aim and shoot! Brewsters on the other hand... :joystick:
This is when I'm in a 109 or 190.
I love baiting people in real,close while flying a 190 then just chop throtle and start a sissor :)
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I do this like thing where i just like fly into them.
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The other day I lost to a good pony pilot while in a KI-84 cause I did my usual thing, while in a climber against a B&Z'er, slowed him up and got him in a spiral turn fight until he gets flat and slow. The problem was I was new to the KI and we were at 8 to 12k and I didnt realize the KI loses much of its climb advanatge over the 51 at those Alts and I couldnt figure out how that Mustang was staying with me. I ran out of Wep first and that was that. I was pretty much stuck cause if I dove he'd outdive me, tho if I had to do it again I'd have worked him up or down in Alt to get the advantage again.
The point is I lost cause I didnt know the performance stack up of the KI vs the 51D. I assumed at anything under 20K the KI would outclimb it. Thats why the better sticks in the game have flown pretty much all the aircraft and know how they stack up against each other. A habit I wish I'd picked up when I started.
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The other day I lost to a good pony pilot while in a KI-84 cause I did my usual thing, while in a climber against a B&Z'er, slowed him up and got him in a spiral turn fight until he gets flat and slow. The problem was I was new to the KI and we were at 8 to 12k and I didnt realize the KI loses much of its climb advanatge over the 51 at those Alts and I couldnt figure out how that Mustang was staying with me. I ran out of Wep first and that was that. I was pretty much stuck cause if I dove he'd outdive me, tho if I had to do it again I'd have worked him up or down in Alt to get the advantage again.
The point is I lost cause I didnt know the performance stack up of the KI vs the 51D. I assumed at anything under 20K the KI would outclimb it. Thats why the better sticks in the game have flown pretty much all the aircraft and know how they stack up against each other. A habit I wish I'd picked up when I started.
In that matchup you should be able to get pretty sloppy and still win, since the Ki84 dominates the 51 in turn rate and turn radius at all low speeds.
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In that matchup you should be able to get pretty sloppy and still win, since the Ki84 dominates the 51 in turn rate and turn radius at all low speeds.
thats what I was thinking.....
also the WEP recharges in the KI just as fast as it goes.
Rich if the pony tries to turn fight you in anyway chop throttle and pull out those flaps when going over the top, use hard rudder to whip that sucker around, it has a viscous reversal that 51's have no chance of keeping up with....even a well flown pony stands no chance against a KI.....being new to it is why you lost....lots of people give her up because of the little quirks, keep at it and you will find very few planes stand a chance against it 1vs1
similar to the LA7.....any plane it cant out turn it will out climb, and vice versa.
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Did the pony pilot keep you fast? If so he's a smart one :)
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Did the pony pilot keep you fast? If so he's a smart one :)
the only thing a 51 can do against a well flown KI is run.
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the only thing a 51 can do against a well flown KI is run.
Eh, or try to force the ki to get going 320 and do a hard turn and cut back with flaps and hope it worked :lol
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Eh, or try to force the ki to get going 320 and do a hard turn and cut back with flaps and hope it worked :lol
wont work :D
the 51 needs to get the KI faster then that before it could use the Hi speed maneuverability advantage it has.
no smart KI driver is gonna let that happen.
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I'm glad I came back to this. But what is a barrelroll reversal ? You mean attempt to get the spit to overshoot with a barrelroll?
More then a barelroll reversal - the 47 has to use the vector roll to cut the corner and maintain e and slowly gain an e advantage (or more like try to hang onto you e for as long as you can to make shop opportunities). The difficult thing for the 47 is that it is a great fighter going downhill, not so hot going uphill unless you master that strange flip thing they do. . . which is defiantly for the advanced 47 pilot since it has a lot of timing involved and a 'desperation' move.
Anyway - with a spit, I try to create separation and work the angles in the vertical. And by separation i am not talking about distance (extension lateral or horizontal) but a relationship (e and g) that entices the spit to pull into you. Ultimately though, i assume that every spit fight is an e/angles fight and you just have to force them to either fly slower or faster then their optimal and since I usually fly e planes (109 and KIs), it is just about bleeding them slowly. I think 47s need to start with an e advantage and bnz and don't miss. That is to say, force the opponent to fly in your strong suits and don't get suckered into their game. . . but that is the same for all planes.
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Oh the fight went on and on. It wasnt like I was easy meat. But for the life of me I couldnt figure out why the 51 was able to climb with me. Now that I know I would do things different. The point is "knowing". It could have come down to a 3/4th tank of gas that I had, a 1/4th for him, and the fact he just just plain better then I and more knowledgeable.
It wont happen again I can tell you that. the only thing a 51 can do against a well flown KI is run.
No, instead I "kept him slow". Which is why it as so dang weird, even tho he bounced me from high and I never had an advantage i should have been able to wiggle out of it. Ive done it in Yaks against 51s and 47s but i couldnt do it at this alt with this 51. :frown:
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Oh the fight went on and on. It wasnt like I was easy meat. But for the life of me I couldnt figure out why the 51 was able to climb with me. Now that I know I would do things different. The point is "knowing". It could have come down to a 3/4th tank of gas that I had, a 1/4th for him, and the fact he just just plain better then I and more knowledgeable.
It wont happen again I can tell you that. No, instead I "kept him slow". Which is why it as so dang weird, even tho he bounced me from high and I never had an advantage i should have been able to wiggle out of it. Ive done it in Yaks against 51s and 47s but i couldnt do it at this alt with this 51. :frown:
there are some great 51 sticks that will surprise ya, I had one surprise me in my hurri2C, here I am very lazy merge figure he was just gonna run, :rofl he reversed and was on my 6 quick....it took a few minutes of hard fighting and swearing to finally get behind him, and kill him, that guy knew how to push that 51 like no one else I have seen.....
if he bounced you from high good chance he was just conserving his E as much as possible.
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there are some great 51 sticks that will surprise ya, I had one surprise me in my hurri2C, here I am very lazy merge figure he was just gonna run, :rofl he reversed and was on my 6 quick....it took a few minutes of hard fighting and swearing to finally get behind him, and kill him, that guy knew how to push that 51 like no one else I have seen.....
if he bounced you from high good chance he was just conserving his E as much as possible.
BigR?
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no...think it was oldemon :headscratch:
although BigR is a great fight also.
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wont work :D
the 51 needs to get the KI faster then that before it could use the Hi speed maneuverability advantage it has.
no smart KI driver is gonna let that happen.
The 51 can pop 1 notch of flaps out at that speed and out turn the Ki.
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The 51 can pop 1 notch of flaps out at that speed and out turn the Ki.
and just a bit of maneuvering for the KI to avoid, while easily reversing back in....the 51 is not meant for that type of fighting, it is a BnZ expert that is what it is designed for.
anyone worth his salt in A KI will easily take out a 51 now of course the stick in the 51 if he is awesome in it, it may be more difficult, but the inevitable truth is, the 51 will die.
I am more then willing to test it :aok
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The 51 can pop 1 notch of flaps out at that speed and out turn the Ki.
This is not quite true,both planes would be above corner speed so both would be limited to a 6g turn!
Now if the 51 got the KI around 200 mph then it could use it's flaps to maybe get an advantage in turn because the Ki is still to fast to pop flaps but below corner speed so it would be limited in it's turn ability.
YMMV.
:salute
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I fly mostly F4U1D, and spits can be a pain to kill if he gets me by surprise or the fight tend to last.. The F4U loses energy pretty fast, and it takes a while to get it back so I need to get good angles and make my shots as early in the fight as possible vs the spit. But very often I end up in a full flaps hard turning fight with spits, because I burned my E trying to get a shot and then missed my shot. (I am a bad shot, and not that good hogdriver neither)
Then my next option is to go for the scissors, and I try to reverse and climb ontop of the spit while I do it so he burns his E trying to make the shot at me. Then if I am lucky he will end up directly under me so I can flip my rudder and get a snapshot at him as he passes under me.
I hate when a fight ends up in those everlasting flat turns on full flaps, rattling the stallhorn and shaking the plane.. Those I will lose eventually if the spit driver knows how to keep a steady plane and don't make a mistake so he straighten out his path.. So, then I'm back to the scissors again, to try make him make a mistake that I can take the advantage out of.. But if I know the spit pilot is Spacy, then I just bail and salute after the first merge.. :lol :salute :bolt:
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and just a bit of maneuvering for the KI to avoid, while easily reversing back in....the 51 is not meant for that type of fighting, it is a BnZ expert that is what it is designed for.
anyone worth his salt in A KI will easily take out a 51 now of course the stick in the 51 if he is awesome in it, it may be more difficult, but the inevitable truth is, the 51 will die.
I am more then willing to test it :aok
I know the Ki is a far better dogfighter, but the 51 sure can dance a little bit if flown right.
I would try a fight out 51 v. Ki I know I'll loose but worth a shot.
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the 51 sure can dance a little bit if flown right.
Thats why I love fighting low and slow with it. :)
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The easiest way to approach a Spit is from behind, in the dark, at night when it's sleeping. Just let the air out of the tires and drain the fuel tanks. The thing is useless then and easily defeated.
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I just had a bad experience earlier today.. I mean, it was fun but the outcome was bad for me.. It involved me vs 2 spit8's, fighting through the underbrush between the trees.. One spit ontop of me the whole time as they tumbled all over me, while I tried my best evasive moves.. Dang, I came in too low and let myself be pushed down further. That goes into the book of how to NOT approach a spit ..or in this case, two aggressively well flown spits.. :noid
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I usually walk up and start with a good opening line.
"whats happenin' foxy mama? Are you a viking? Why, well, you look like you have a little Norwegian in you. No? Would you like to?"
and then I see how it goes from there.
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I usually walk up and start with a good opening line.
"whats happenin' foxy mama? Are you a viking? Why, well, you look like you have a little Norwegian in you. No? Would you like to?"
and then I see how it goes from there.
:rofl I almost wish I was short and Norwegian so I could use that line.
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:rofl I almost wish I was short and Norwegian so I could use that line.
:rofl
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:rofl I almost wish I was short and Norwegian so I could use that line.
I have a line for men from Dublin, Ireland. :D Although it'll be Skuzzified if I even begin to type it.
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I have a line for men from Dublin, Ireland. :D Although it'll be Skuzzified if I even begin to type it.
1-900-something? :) hehe
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P-47 vs Spit
OH WHAT TO DO? :O
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P-47 vs Spit
OH WHAT TO DO? :O
If you can't get even a snapshot, not much. If you do get a snapshot, 8x 50 Cals should at least do something, if not kill the Spit outright.
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What I would do P-47 vs Spitfire is this: BnZ the crap out of him, don't let him leave the fight, force him to run dry of fuel, and then when he lands on the ground, ping him ONCE, so that he has to give you a kill by ending flight.
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What I would do P-47 vs Spitfire is this: BnZ the crap out of him, don't let him leave the fight, force him to run dry of fuel, and then when he lands on the ground, ping him ONCE, so that he has to give you a kill by ending flight.
What most P47s do instead is BnZ for a couple of passes and then either go for a different target who might be AFK or have bad SA, or they dive to the deck and run away after you reverse them
LilMak knows how to fly that thing properly though :aok there are some others too I'm sure
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What I would do P-47 vs Spitfire is this: BnZ the crap out of him, don't let him leave the fight, force him to run dry of fuel, and then when he lands on the ground, ping him ONCE, so that he has to give you a kill by ending flight.
Ok, what if the spit has E on you? You going to run around waiting for him to run out of gas? :lol
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Ok, what if the spit has E on you? You going to run around waiting for him to run out of gas? :lol
probably :lol
or hit the deck as fast as he can
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probably :lol
or hit the deck as fast as he can
There is no fun in that. No fight=lame :(
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Kinda missed the joke. I was implying that you should humiliate the spitfire by forcing him to yield a kill, even though his aircraft is still intact and undamaged.
Pretty obvious i'm not entirely serious.
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Most of your posts are so incredibly stupid (see Wishlist forum) that it's honestly hard to tell most of the time
Also if Spit has alt on P47 the accepted P47 tactic is to turn in for a HO when the Spit comes down :old:
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Kinda missed the joke. I was implying that you should humiliate the spitfire by forcing him to yield a kill, even though his aircraft is still intact and undamaged.
Pretty obvious i'm not entirely serious.
You really humiliated that spit by running and BNZ'ing... :rofl
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No Coombz, I'm resonably sure that my posts are, on the whole, smarter than yours are. Infact, I'm almost certian of it.
Whats happening is that I really couldn't care any less about spelling and grammar on an internet forum, an you seem to want us all to do pennance before their altars.
Joachim, perhaps humilate wasn't the best word. Not really trying to piss him off, although it would also accomplish that. And I'm not really trying to embarass or humiliate him. Mostly I'm trying to annoy him, and make him really just hate my guts.
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Mostly I'm trying to annoy him, and make him really just hate my guts.
How in the world would you find pleasure in that?
- oldman
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How in the world would you find pleasure in that?
- oldman
Because I really hate spitfires. Well, the 16 mostly and the 8 a little bit, but its spread to the other spits by association.
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I don't understand the hate some planes get.....I love all prop planes that's one of the things that peaked my interest in this game....
how could you not like a spit....man the are beautiful, sleek, deadly....great planes.
there are NO such things as dweeb planes, just dweeb pilots.
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I don't understand the hate some planes get.....I love all prop planes that's one of the things that peaked my interest in this game....
how could you not like a spit....man the are beautiful, sleek, deadly....great planes.
there are NO such things as dweeb planes, just dweeb pilots.
:aok :headscratch: :huh
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I don't understand the hate some planes get.....I love all prop planes that's one of the things that peaked my interest in this game....
how could you not like a spit....man the are beautiful, sleek, deadly....great planes.
there are NO such things as dweeb planes, just dweeb pilots.
Right on man! The 51 is a perfect example of this hate the plane thing. SKatSr had a saying when I'd be yelling about a guy on my 6. "just turn around and kill him" he'd say :lol These 51 guys out there that run from every bad situation would be surprised at how many times that actually works in their favor. The plane does what the pilot tells it to do.
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:aok :headscratch: :huh
Yeah, I agree for once.
Ink, I hate spitfires because they are probably the easiest planes to fly decently in combat. I hadn't been in one for well over 6 months and had only flown them a bare handfull of times before that (almost certinaly less than 50 sorties in all spitfire models over the course of 6 years. And if I were being concervative, I would say less than 30), hopped in a spit and proceded to get 2 kills in a single sortie.
And even though the spitfires are very easy to fly, there are still some intermediate and high-level pilots that fly the spitfire. It seems like cheating almost to be a good pilot and then go fly a pair of training wheels like the spitifre. Even the 109K, likely the best 109 out there, requires a good bit of skill to fly effectivly.
And they don't look beautiful, they look refined at best, I would even say they look plain. Theres a simple beauty to be had in the look of raw power and speed the US fighters project, or the deadly, predatory grace German iron displays.
But smooth curves? I can find those on my girlfriend. With planes? Beauty in functionality I always say.
And if a plane has a VERY high percentage of dweeb pilots....... I mean doesn't that kind of indicate that its a good plane for dweebs, and hence is a dweeb-plane?
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<Facepalm> I'm not even going to get into this...
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Yeah, I agree for once.
Ink, I hate spitfires because they are probably the easiest planes to fly decently in combat. I hadn't been in one for well over 6 months and had only flown them a bare handfull of times before that (almost certinaly less than 50 sorties in all spitfire models over the course of 6 years. And if I were being concervative, I would say less than 30), hopped in a spit and proceded to get 2 kills in a single sortie.
And even though the spitfires are very easy to fly, there are still some intermediate and high-level pilots that fly the spitfire. It seems like cheating almost to be a good pilot and then go fly a pair of training wheels like the spitifre. Even the 109K, likely the best 109 out there, requires a good bit of skill to fly effectivly.
And they don't look beautiful, they look refined at best, I would even say they look plain. Theres a simple beauty to be had in the look of raw power and speed the US fighters project, or the deadly, predatory grace German iron displays.
But smooth curves? I can find those on my girlfriend. With planes? Beauty in functionality I always say.
And if a plane has a VERY high percentage of dweeb pilots....... I mean doesn't that kind of indicate that its a good plane for dweebs, and hence is a dweeb-plane?
no I disagree, noobs are not dweebs, most noobs fly spits.....
yes I do agree that a vet in a spit is a very dangerous thing and it is almost to easy, now if that vet is vulching and ganging in a spit he is a dweeb, but if he is out there fighting all odds, I don't care what he flies....heck I don't care what anyone flies, as long as they fight, even then I don't care, I just wont have respect for them ingame.
the plane is just a tool, it is the pilot that controls the plane...
take a 190-P51- any BnZ expert...if they attack me and only BnZ me I will respect that person, he is using the tool the way it was meant to be used, now if they make one pass, climb away and wait till I am engaged, well I wont think so highly of them....if they are aggressively BnZing me, I appreciate that.....and can respect it.
I don't BnZ.... I fight all odds, never run away,until I am bingo, I am here to fight, that's not to say I don't use the KI's climbing ability to the fullest extent possible, especially when the numbers are overwhelming....
I don't care what anyone flies...what is the point? it is their game...they have 100% right to fly and fight the way they see fit, the way that makes them happy......more power to them... :aok
I truly don't care about the war...the points....the score....my cartoon dieing...I just want to fight....and make people fear when they see a KI :t
just wish I could get the dam targeting down :furious
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Yeah, I agree for once.
Ink, I hate spitfires because they are probably the easiest planes to fly decently in combat. I hadn't been in one for well over 6 months and had only flown them a bare handfull of times before that (almost certinaly less than 50 sorties in all spitfire models over the course of 6 years. And if I were being concervative, I would say less than 30), hopped in a spit and proceded to get 2 kills in a single sortie.
And even though the spitfires are very easy to fly, there are still some intermediate and high-level pilots that fly the spitfire. It seems like cheating almost to be a good pilot and then go fly a pair of training wheels like the spitifre. Even the 109K, likely the best 109 out there, requires a good bit of skill to fly effectivly.
And they don't look beautiful, they look refined at best, I would even say they look plain. Theres a simple beauty to be had in the look of raw power and speed the US fighters project, or the deadly, predatory grace German iron displays.
But smooth curves? I can find those on my girlfriend. With planes? Beauty in functionality I always say.
And if a plane has a VERY high percentage of dweeb pilots....... I mean doesn't that kind of indicate that its a good plane for dweebs, and hence is a dweeb-plane?
some smart arse German once called the Spitfire a "toy", little did he realise what Mitchell had created, a machine that defined a nations un-broken spirit and delivered savage blows to the Luftwaffe in every theatre of the war. But yes some other Countries planes are good just not in the same league. :salute
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The spitfire hardly defined England's 'unbroken spirit'. Even saying that it exemplifies that spirit is greatly stretching a point.
I mean the UK had at one point, what, like 50 operational spitfires during the Battle of Britain, while the Hurricanes bore the brunt of the work? No matter how laughable giving so fearsome a name to so sedate a fighter is, it sounds as though you ought to be praising the Hurricane over the Spitfire.
Or did you mean to say it defined the spirit of letting the USA bear the brunt of the work later on in the war?
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Help... and... Training...
The spits really aren't all that fearful for the most part. I certainly wouldn't class them as any more or less "dweeby" than anything else...
For the most part, I consider them very kill-able if they're alone or only with one other one (co-alt or above me). The approach and defense strategies I use on them really don't differ much from the ones I use on anything else. I may adjust the speed, size, or shape of my maneuvers a bit here and there, depending upon the situation, but I do that for all of the other planes as well. I even adjust things by the moment, and may change things up several times in the same fight.
For the most part, I think that it's a mistake to worry too much about the plane type you're fighting. I certainly wouldn't consider it a good idea to change tactics too much, or to develop "plane-specific" tactics.
That may be due in large part to the fact that many of the fights I experience in AH are very similar, and often progress in a predictable manner. The "details" may vary, but the overall fights are often pretty similar. Most people will never be able to make their plane excel at the things that make it different than the rest of the plane-set. IMO, that makes it a mistake to get too carried away worrying about the plane-type you're fighting.
You're better off, IMO, to worry about the pilot. Beat him, and you'll beat his plane.
Now, I do take into account some basic differences... Faster than me, slower than me, better accel, or climb, or "xyz" than me... I have those loosely in mind, but I don't necessarily "fly" to those strengths/weaknesses based on plane-type. Just because he's in a faster plane doesn't mean he's faster than me right now, or that he'll ever be able to use that aspect in this fight.
From my time as a trainer, I found that most people who had trouble with a certain type of plane just needed to change their tactics a little bit to overcome that.
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Spits were in high demand in BoB, and played an equal role as the Hurricanes. The spits fought off the Me's and the hurricanes stuck with the bombers. The spits couldn't have done without the help of hurricanes and hurricanes couldn't have done it without the help of spits.
The spit was designed to be able to counter the 109 and protect it's country and it did that and exceeded expectations.
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The spitfire hardly defined England's 'unbroken spirit'. Even saying that it exemplifies that spirit is greatly stretching a point.
I mean the UK had at one point, what, like 50 operational spitfires during the Battle of Britain, while the Hurricanes bore the brunt of the work? No matter how laughable giving so fearsome a name to so sedate a fighter is, it sounds as though you ought to be praising the Hurricane over the Spitfire.
Or did you mean to say it defined the spirit of letting the USA bear the brunt of the work later on in the war?
:O Wow.
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He thought I meant spelling when I mentioned his incredibly stupid posts :lol
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He thought I meant spelling when I mentioned his incredibly stupid posts :lol
Spelling and grammar being the largest flaws in my posts (damn near the ONLY flaws in my posts, on most occations), logicly, those are the two most likely reason you would find my posts 'stupid'.
And I find it quite interesting that you seem to be the only one that holds such an oppinion. It suggests that the problem is on your end, rather than mine.
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I may adjust the speed, size, or shape of my maneuvers a bit here and there, depending upon the situation, but I do that for all of the other planes as well. I even adjust things by the moment, and may change things up several times in the same fight.
I find this interesting. I was wondering if you maybe could provide a few examples of "you see him doing X" so "you do Y to adjust your speed, size, or shape of your manuevers". I think it might be useful for some of us to have some examples of you you apply your thinking to a fight. Unfortunately, general statements are hard for some of us to apply.
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I find this interesting. I was wondering if you maybe could provide a few examples of "you see him doing X" so "you do Y to adjust your speed, size, or shape of your manuevers". I think it might be useful for some of us to have some examples of you you apply your thinking to a fight. Unfortunately, general statements are hard for some of us to apply.
You want specific answers to general questions. It's best to learn the general principles and practice applying them to specific instances.
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You want specific answers to general questions. It's best to learn the general principles and practice applying them to specific instances.
Damn right I do, so do the rest of the less experienced guys reading this. We don't know the questions either. Tell us about the "General principles and how to apply them! We're hoping for more then the usual "practice and don't suck so much answers". Quit assuming that we know what you are talking about. Quit expecting that until we are able to even schedule several hours with trainers so that you can even talk to us...
This is the Training BBS, do us noobs a favor and talk us through scenarios... Quit trying to wow us with rhetoric...
You know... I know that air combat is a complex affair. But then again, I have always felt that some of the general answers offered up are nothing more then the more talented folks telling the less talented folks to, "Get better at it."
Well.... duh...
I try to learn. I watch films of more gifted pilots every chance I get. I fight in the MA. I fight when I have an advantage. I fight when there is no advantage. I fight at a disadvantage. Heck, I'm not the worst dogfighter in Aces High.
I will continue to learn general principles by attempting to apply them. By watching those who apply them well... Gleaning what I can... By schedulng sessions with trainers... etc etc The same as I always have...
Why is it so hard for the experten to understand that more specific, "He is doing this, so I am going to try this... because of..." would be more useful then, "Practice and get better"?
For god's sake! Practice what? What am I looking for? What is a mistake that a Spit16 driver might make that I can take advantage of in my Ki84 for example? I hope that you can tell me to do more then "wait for him to screw up"... That advice is worthless if I haven't learned what those screw ups are yet. Give me one... Co-alt in a Ki84 vs a Spit16, what is something that he might do that would make you think, "He screwed the pooch. Now I'm going to..." That knowledge is something that a student of air combat can build on better then the usual vague answers we see here...
Most of you who offer instruction here are TOO aware of the possible variations, and not aware enough that beginners need a starting point more then they need an "anything could happen so you better be ready" point
I admit that the Training Forum is more frustrating then helpful a lot of the time. This thread, has had a few knowledge nuggets in it, and a whole lot of ego crap.
When are you more gifted pilots going to accept that a lesser pilot would benefit more from more specific examples of "If this... then..."? Somethimg that can be easily appilied and the built upon?! We all know that there are such situations. For instance, when I spend time with 2 weekers, I will tell them that, "If he flat turns, you are usually better off doing a vertical turn." Sure it's pretty darn simple stuff, but it is something that a cartoon pilot eating cheetos at his desk while wearing navy blue sweat pants can understand and even use to his own advantage in the main arena.
Give the cheetos crowd something we can use, for god's sake!
((For the record, I don't even own any navy blue sweat pants... Just saying.))
/rant against the useless BBS experten, not you specifically FLS. Your post just set me off a bit.
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Dave it sounds like you are on the right path to learn what you want to about dogfighting. I know that it seems the more experienced sticks seem to give answers that basically tell you to get better. Keep in mind that it is really difficult to tell someone how to read the E state of their opponent, or how to time your break turn so he can't get a shot on you. Sure I can tell you when he's about 800 out, but how fast is he closing, is he high, low, off angle. All those thing play into how and when I break into an opponent. Knowing when to do what is also something not as easy to explain as it might seem since every engagement is different.Things like that take time to learn, and can be difficult to explain. That's why practice, practice, and more practice is the answer you usually get.
Also there are things that more experienced sticks may do without realizing that not everyone knows about them. An example is unloading the air frame in a climb, at the top of a rolling scissors, or when shooting.
Don't be afraid to ask the more experienced players how they do what they do. Most will help you, and you might be surprised how helpful they can be.
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PFD, there's way too many scenarios to list and answer every question about them. But, if someone has a specific question then they'll get a specific answer. If it's a general question like the name of this thread, they'll get a general answer.
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PFD, there's way too many scenarios to list and answer every question about them. But, if someone has a specific question then they'll get a specific answer. If it's a general question like the name of this thread, they'll get a general answer.
That's exactly my point.... Quit with the useless general crap... It's worthless... Give us a specific scenario and how to respond to it instead of platiudes.
It would be more useful to start with "X plane with more E diving on you in Y plane, try this"... Etc... As far as I know, HTC won't delete your threads for approaching more possibilities even if they don't cover every possibility. Why is it so anthema to approach a specific situation with a specifc answer?
Don't you think that WW2 commanders had specific advice for their pilots on what to do if X plane was diving on them?
Will it cover every event? No, of course not. But my arguement is that it will be more useful to build on then the usual, "fight more, get better"...
The arguement seems to be, " We can't tell you exactly how to handle every situation, so we aren't going to tell you how to handle any of them... Figure it out yourself."
Been doing that for 4 years now. I want more then, "Get better".
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You know what... I'm a bit cranky today. It was Easter and the wife had to work (first time since we have been married), and the kids were a pain (probably because they have expectations about such Holidays which were unrealistic this year)... I realize now that when I started this thread, I wasn't specific enough to generate the discussion I was after...
Let's start over...
Assume a Spitfire8 is approaching you... Either Co-Alt, Higher alt, or lower alt (your choice, but lower alt isn't that helpful)... What would YOU DO or WATCH FOR HIM TO DO in X PLANE OF YOUR CHOICE...
Specifics are useful to build tactics on.... Generalities really aren't very useful.
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Dave it sounds like you are on the right path to learn what you want to about dogfighting. I know that it seems the more experienced sticks seem to give answers that basically tell you to get better. Keep in mind that it is really difficult to tell someone how to read the E state of their opponent, or how to time your break turn so he can't get a shot on you. Sure I can tell you when he's about 800 out, but how fast is he closing, is he high, low, off angle. All those thing play into how and when I break into an opponent. Knowing when to do what is also something not as easy to explain as it might seem since every engagement is different.Things like that take time to learn, and can be difficult to explain. That's why practice, practice, and more practice is the answer you usually get.
Also there are things that more experienced sticks may do without realizing that not everyone knows about them. An example is unloading the air frame in a climb, at the top of a rolling scissors, or when shooting.
Don't be afraid to ask the more experienced players how they do what they do. Most will help you, and you might be surprised how helpful they can be.
Well duh... I'm sorry... Nothing you have just said will teach anyone anything other than that they aren't experienced enough to ask questions.
Is that a good thing for Aces High as a community?
Practice practice practice is you answer... Great... That's so enlightening...
Put 10 kids who have never seen a basketball on a court. Tell them to play the game. Then tell them to make a basket. How? Well they should practice practice practice...
Do you understand why the general stuff is garbage yet?
Show those kids how to shoot a jump shot from a given spot on the court and you have shown them something to start from...
Honestly, I have a fair amount of confidence in my own abilities, it just annoys the crap out of me that nobody is willing to get specific in this forum on the BBS...
Everyone is too darn afraid of being misunderstood or having the next "experten" tell them they are wrong.
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rawr
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I know where you're coming from Dave and agree to an extent
I think the 'how to avoid the first bounce' thread, or whatever it was called was a good example of some top sticks giving specific instructions on how to fly in those specific scenarios, and it would be good to get more of that
one thing I have thought of doing is posting short film clips of some of the excellent moves other people pull on me and asking for more info on exactly what and how they were doing...
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OK, since I fly Spits all the time and have made every mistake in the Spitfire mistake book I'll give you one example of how to beat one. Actually this one example will give you several options. BTW I'm no expert.
When you throttle off a Spit on landing they slow down like a boat. They aren't like an F6F or a 109 or a 190 or anything else I fly regularily. They simply don't hold E with the throttle off. But give them a little power and you can't bleed E even in a turn.
Under power Spits hold E like no other plane and that's a way to beat one. I've gone one, two and even three full turns before I've bled enough E to be able to pop flaps. Even in a hard turn they just won't slow down under power. Even vertical turns might not be enough and even if the Spit gets to pop flaps at the top they might retract on the way down placing him in the same situation.
An inexperienced Spit driver might not be experienced enough to control throttle and in that vertical fight even if he does he might also have to cross control to keep speeds and flaps down. Even an experienced pilot might be too busy or too engaged or be carrying to much E. Against a faster plane I don't like to throttle back at all because I don't want to let a faster plane have a chance to get away.
Depending what you're flying and relative E states the likelyhood of you being able to pop flaps and get inside the Spit early is possible but if you don't do it within the first two turns it could get ugly. If you're near the deck when you do this in a vertical manouver you might even get to see a high E retention Spit nose dive into terra firma. It happened to me within the past two weeks... I got him... I got him... UhOh... Splat! Even if you don't pop flaps it's a safe bet the Spit is flying near blackout so use that to your advantage. You might also be able to get a flaps out rolling scissors going to gain an early advantage.
IMO excellent E retention is the Spits biggest weakness and it's exploitable.
BTW, try to keep him nose down if he's losing E.
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The spitfire hardly defined England's 'unbroken spirit'. Even saying that it exemplifies that spirit is greatly stretching a point.
I mean the UK had at one point, what, like 50 operational spitfires during the Battle of Britain, while the Hurricanes bore the brunt of the work? No matter how laughable giving so fearsome a name to so sedate a fighter is, it sounds as though you ought to be praising the Hurricane over the Spitfire.
Or did you mean to say it defined the spirit of letting the USA bear the brunt of the work later on in the war?
That's right! There were so many Hurricanes, very lethal bomber killers to be exact. Also what I dislike is how there are no Sea Hurris on carriers (Firefly or Fulmar). I mean the Sea Fire was quite rare to find honestly.
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@ Dave. I know exactly what you're saying. I been practicing for 6 years now, but I problem was I didn't know what I need to practice. :bhead That is until I started working with a trainer. I've always thought I had a very good merge but just couldn't out loop that better turning plane. As I finding out as my training comes along, all this time I've been just a tad late on my merges. Last weekend I put into practice what I'm being taught and I was getting my P38 nose over before most of the Spitfires I was encountering :rock.
The use of my flaps are often now quite correct, my plane control while slow and at top of the loop was very poor also. All this is what my trainer (BigRat) has pointed out to me, (as well as Ink), that I need to work on and practice. And it's paying off. Your issues probably aren't the same as mine but I highly recommend setting up some time with a trainer to point out where your flying my be lacking.
Personally, I'd hate to see ya get any better as you give me fits when I fly against you now. :lol
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This is the Training BBS, do us noobs a favor and talk us through scenarios... Quit trying to wow us with rhetoric...
You know... I know that air combat is a complex affair. But then again, I have always felt that some of the general answers offered up are nothing more then the more talented folks telling the less talented folks to, "Get better at it."
I understand your frustration with people who tell you just to practice until you get a feel for it.
The problem with specific instructions is that they require the bandit to also follow specific instructions. Since we can't count on that I believe it's best to give general instruction that applies to all aircraft in all tactical situations.
If you compare and contrast what you know about a particular model Spitfire vs a Ki-84 for example then the results should suggest a course of action based on your general knowledge of flying and air combat. If you lack this general knowledge then you'll probably want to schedule some training.
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I find this interesting. I was wondering if you maybe could provide a few examples of "you see him doing X" so "you do Y to adjust your speed, size, or shape of your manuevers". I think it might be useful for some of us to have some examples of you you apply your thinking to a fight. Unfortunately, general statements are hard for some of us to apply.
Good questions Dave, and I understand your frustration. I'll do my best to give you some specific examples.
There are some problems with giving specific direction, of course, but I'll do my best. Feel free to toss any questions you come up with my way. I'll be happy to answer the ones I can. I'll have to be brief this morning (on my way to work) but I can continue later.
Some of this will seem "general" at first, but please bear with me. The specifics depend on the generalities.
I approach my flying/fighting the same way I do many of the other aspects of life. I look for patterns/trends, and I notice specific, small details. I'm also quick to associate what my target is doing, with what I'D likely do in the same situation. What would I be seeing, thinking, expecting, and planning to do? Knowing that, what can I do in my current situation to take advantage of that?
Thinking that way allows me to set "traps" for my opponent. Beyond that, it allows me to prepare for him doing something, and be ready to instantly capitalize on it when he does it.
It allows me some "freedom" with my thought processes, because I'm not "waiting for him to make a mistake". If I did that, I'd have to wait until he did something, see it, recognize it, and then act on it (and because I didn't know he was going to do it, I may not be ready for it, in position for it, at the right speed, angle, etc).
"Waiting for him to make a mistake" doesn't work for me very well. I suspect it also doesn't work well for a LOT of other people.
Instead, I do MUCH better if I set a trap for my opponent. If I do that, I can anticipate the results, and watch them occur. I'll no right away if things aren't developing the way I want/need them to, and I'll adjust to see if I can correct the matter. If I can't correct it to give me a shot solution, I'll just adjust to survive at the least cost possible to me (and at the greatest cost to him) and then set another trap (maybe the same one).
So, the traps... I used to do a fair amount of animal trapping, and bowhunting. Those activities depend on some key components. Obviously, making sure the target is available to begin with, in suitable numbers. But then it comes to some specifics. To catch a fox, you DO NOT just go set a trap for a fox. If you do, you WILL NOT catch a fox. The "trick" isn't even to catch the fox; it's to catch its right front foot. Set properly, that trap will catch almost any fox that happens along, but will not catch a dog or coyote if they should happen along... I'm not going to explain how to do that, but that's also how I approach fights in AH. It'll serve as a good example.
To see the specifics involved , try (or imagine) this exercise. Set a "trap" for your dog. Pick a mark on the floor about the size of a golf ball. You goal is to have your dog place his right front foot there, willingly, without your control. If you can do that, consider him "trapped". Use a treat, toy, or whatever... You also don't want him to just brush his foot over that spot, you want him to place it there firmly. That may seem impossible, but it's easy if you include some "guides".
Sounds nuts so far? I'll be back tonight...
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Give me one... Co-alt in a Ki84 vs a Spit16, what is something that he might do that would make you think, "He screwed the pooch. Now I'm going to..."
Spit pilots are used to being able to out-knife-fight all other planes. Very few aircraft fly, turn and maintain their altitude at low speed as well as the Frank (with judicious use of its flaps). So play his game. As mtnman suggests, many Spit drivers don't pay enough attention to throttle control. If you're engaged with one of these, slow down the fight. You will be able to stay co-alt and turn with him, or climb above him and use yo-yos to turn inside him.
Hey, try it and see what happens.
- oldman
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That's right! There were so many Hurricanes, very lethal bomber killers to be exact. Also what I dislike is how there are no Sea Hurris on carriers (Firefly or Fulmar). I mean the Sea Fire was quite rare to find honestly.
I don't even know where to start after this one. Could you please go do some research and then try again please.
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The spitfire hardly defined England's 'unbroken spirit'. Even saying that it exemplifies that spirit is greatly stretching a point.
I mean the UK had at one point, what, like 50 operational spitfires during the Battle of Britain, while the Hurricanes bore the brunt of the work? No matter how laughable giving so fearsome a name to so sedate a fighter is, it sounds as though you ought to be praising the Hurricane over the Spitfire.
Or did you mean to say it defined the spirit of letting the USA bear the brunt of the work later on in the war?
The RAF had more than 50 operational Spitfires available to them during the Battle of Britain. Please do some research before making outragous claims.
ack-ack
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Good questions Dave, and I understand your frustration. I'll do my best to give you some specific examples.
There are some problems with giving specific direction, of course, but I'll do my best. Feel free to toss any questions you come up with my way. I'll be happy to answer the ones I can. I'll have to be brief this morning (on my way to work) but I can continue later.
Some of this will seem "general" at first, but please bear with me. The specifics depend on the generalities.
I approach my flying/fighting the same way I do many of the other aspects of life. I look for patterns/trends, and I notice specific, small details. I'm also quick to associate what my target is doing, with what I'D likely do in the same situation. What would I be seeing, thinking, expecting, and planning to do? Knowing that, what can I do in my current situation to take advantage of that?
Thinking that way allows me to set "traps" for my opponent. Beyond that, it allows me to prepare for him doing something, and be ready to instantly capitalize on it when he does it.
It allows me some "freedom" with my thought processes, because I'm not "waiting for him to make a mistake". If I did that, I'd have to wait until he did something, see it, recognize it, and then act on it (and because I didn't know he was going to do it, I may not be ready for it, in position for it, at the right speed, angle, etc).
"Waiting for him to make a mistake" doesn't work for me very well. I suspect it also doesn't work well for a LOT of other people.
Instead, I do MUCH better if I set a trap for my opponent. If I do that, I can anticipate the results, and watch them occur. I'll no right away if things aren't developing the way I want/need them to, and I'll adjust to see if I can correct the matter. If I can't correct it to give me a shot solution, I'll just adjust to survive at the least cost possible to me (and at the greatest cost to him) and then set another trap (maybe the same one).
So, the traps... I used to do a fair amount of animal trapping, and bowhunting. Those activities depend on some key components. Obviously, making sure the target is available to begin with, in suitable numbers. But then it comes to some specifics. To catch a fox, you DO NOT just go set a trap for a fox. If you do, you WILL NOT catch a fox. The "trick" isn't even to catch the fox; it's to catch its right front foot. Set properly, that trap will catch almost any fox that happens along, but will not catch a dog or coyote if they should happen along... I'm not going to explain how to do that, but that's also how I approach fights in AH. It'll serve as a good example.
To see the specifics involved , try (or imagine) this exercise. Set a "trap" for your dog. Pick a mark on the floor about the size of a golf ball. You goal is to have your dog place his right front foot there, willingly, without your control. If you can do that, consider him "trapped". Use a treat, toy, or whatever... You also don't want him to just brush his foot over that spot, you want him to place it there firmly. That may seem impossible, but it's easy if you include some "guides".
Sounds nuts so far? I'll be back tonight...
Can't wait for the next part of "traps".. :x
In fact, reading this made one thing a bit clearer to me.. That being if I am in a 1v1 duel and not do what is generally expected doing in that particular situation, I might survive the fight alot longer than if I just merge by the book and turn blindly into my opponent. Because quite alot of good sticks are using traps to bait me to where they want me.. And if I turn in a way they didn't expect, even if it was in a way putting me in a bad position right there and then they might not see it and react upon it before too late because that's not what they were preparing to do. That way I've turned the tables in many fights, making the fight "my" fight instead. Atleast for a few extra rounds, a good stick will offcourse be able to turn the tables back to his advantage again after very few turns because I am such a bad shot and often lose the small window of opportunity that I made for myself, and the fight is back at scratch again. Only this time my opponent is aware and more prepared for me to do odd things, so he will see it and react sooner.. :rolleyes:
But practice is infact the main key word, no matter how you put it. Without it theory is almost useless.. Offcourse it may prepare your mind and inner eye for the fight, but too many small variables occur during a fight that only practice can prepare you for. Knowing your plane inside out, in any speed and E state is a huge advantage! And knowing your opponents plane just as good is even better. I am no expert on this myself, I don't want to seem like a wiseguy here. I just throw in what I know, or atleast what I think I know.. :P
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And to clearify what I mean by putting myself in a "bad" position, I mean turning in a way that puts me in an angle passing infront of my opponent. Barely out of guns reach prefereably, so he will bleed off some E trying to make the shot at me. But in such angle that it puts me in an immediate advantage position when he overshoots.. If that makes any sense?! :huh
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Tank-Ace words do not describe thy ignorance.
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And to clearify what I mean by putting myself in a "bad" position, I mean turning in a way that puts me in an angle passing infront of my opponent. Barely out of guns reach prefereably, so he will bleed off some E trying to make the shot at me. But in such angle that it puts me in an immediate advantage position when he overshoots.. If that makes any sense?! :huh
I usually refer to that as trading a bad shot for a good position. :aok
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So, back to it...
People are creatures of habit, and are therefore predictable. Some may seem less predictable than others, but once you figure that persons patterns out, they're generally pretty predictable as well.
People also react to similar situations in pretty similar manners, even if they have no contact with each other. An example of that (in a general sense) is the wheel... It's not all that likely that someone invented the wheel, and that it then spread worldwide. It's more likely that it was invented in several places, by different people with no contact with each other. Take that a step further, and apply that to boats, clothing, shelter, food storage/prep, etc... Sure, there are variations, but in general people came up with (and continue to do so) similar approaches to solving similar problems. You can use that tendency in AH...
Back to the dog exercise... You picked a small place on the ground that you'd like your dog to place his right foot upon. You've picked a treat (a smear of peanut butter will work well) to place on the ground in any manner you choose to convince him to place that foot there. Did he step on the spot? Probably not, but if you're observant you've probably figured out a few things... First, most animals (like people) are "right-footed". When your dog stops to sniff the treat, he'll almost invariably stand with his right front foot in front, with his left front foot behind it and slightly to the side (left). That's something you can use... He'll repeat it. People have similar, repeatable behaviors. You can use those.
You'll occasionally find a dog that's "left footed"... You'll also have better luck if the dog doesn't recognize the treat as anything "special" or "abnormal". You need to keep the illusion that "all is fine, all is normal". So don't make a big deal of the treat, place it where he'll "accidentally" find it.
Now, the size of the dog will dictate the distance from the treat the dog will place his front right foot. A big dog will place his foot further back from the treat than a small dog. The distance between the dogs nose when it almost touches the ground (sniffing or licking the treat) and the right front foot is the (first) key. How far is it? Let's say its a dog in the 50# range, so it places it's foot about 8" back from "the spot". You'll also notice at this point that that right foot is offset to the right a few inches from center.
Now, if you place the bait about 8" from "the spot", you'll be on the right track. But how do you make the dog come in from the correct side? And angle? You "guide" him. An easy way is to place a few peddles on the side of the bait opposite of "the spot". And maybe one or two on each side. Arranged properly, they're resemble an upside-down "V", with the bait in near the point, and "the spot" will be in the open end of the V. There are other ways to "guide", even without placing physical "guides". In AH, I just adjust the "bait" (me) so that my opponent attacks from the correct side/angle. Some animals require more spacing, some require less. Some rush right in, some "sneak in". Some are aggressive, some defensive (or suspicious). I adjust the spacing for that. In AH, I adjust my position, speed, angle, etc...
Last, you will do better at trapping if you can get some "commitment" from your target. In trapping, I do that by digging the "the spot" down an inch or two below the surface of the ground. Imagine stepping on a thumbtack with bare feet. On a flat surface/floor, you'll "hop" off of the tack the instant you feel it. You may bury it fully in the sole of your foot, but probably not. However... If I place the tack on a step/stairway so that you contact it as you come down the stairs, you'll fully "commit" to placing your foot, and will bury the tack almost every time...
I use that tendency too... If you're attacking me, I'll do everything I can to make you dive from above me to a point below me, and waste your E pulling hard and zooming back to a point above me. That's the commitment I want from my opponent. I've always got a "plan B" in mind too, so if that doesn't happen I'll shift to increasing horizontal separation. Either way, I'm sculpting the situation to draw a predictable behavior/action from you. Since I know what I'm looking for, I'll know before you've even completed it whether my plan is working or not. Mentally, I'm "ahead" of you in the fight.
This is how I shift a "defensive" position to an "aggressive" position. I may look harmless enough, but I'm dictating at least part of your attack.
I watch other players (and have been, for years) just like I've watched the animals I've trapped/hunted (bowhunting is a lot like trapping, in that you set up an ambush where you attempt to capitalize on an animal's repeated behaviors).
Of course, I don't always win...
More when I get back. Supper time...
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Tank-Ace words do not describe thy ignorance.
:rofl :rofl
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Continued...
I'm basically setting up the majority of my MA 1v1's using one of just a few "formulas", and I'm looking for certain patterns/moves/approaches by my opponents (what I see as "behaviors"). I try to set up opportunities for my opponents to exhibit the behaviors I want. In doing so, I'm setting them up to step into one of my traps.
It's basically the same thing I do when I train my raptors... I set up opportunities for them to exhibit the behavior I want to see. With the birds, I reward that behavior. I'm quick to change the situation slightly if I need to before I see behavior I don't want, or if I suspect the bird won't exhibit what I want so that it can be rewarded. I "head off" undesirable behavior, so that the desired behavior becomes much more likely, or maybe even the only likely behavior I'll see. In falconry, it allows me to reward.
In AH, I do the same thing more or less. I set up an opportunity for my opponent to do something, and try to sculpt the situation so that there are fewer choices, and the one I want to see is hopefully more likely.
First, I try to set up one of two basic nose-on merges with three variations.
In the merge I want to dive (I begin as soon as I decide I'm going to attack; I'm still 5.5K out or so), pick up a bunch of speed, and pass under my opponent. As we pass, I want to be angling upwards by 30 degrees or so, while he's still in a 30 degree dive (or so). As we pass, I DO NOT take my eyes off of my target (most will fail at this).
This merge will elicit one of just a few responses from most pilots (i.e predictable behavior). The vast majority of MA pilots will happily merge like this, and will begin an immelman as they pass above me.
A really inexperienced pilot will actually begin his immelman early, before he even passes by me. I'm waiting for this, but don't see it too often. When I do see this all I do is pull vertical which places me about 200yds off his tail. He's dead. I think pilots begin doing this when frustration sets in following being beaten by this merge too often. They don't realize that my lower position and the sloped angle of our merge is what's allowing me an easy victory. They seem to think (I did as well...) that the trick is to get around the immelman quicker than your opponent, so they start the immelman early...
The next option is that they go past before pulling the immelman (by far the most common). This is what I plan for, and if they do it they've already stepped in my trap...
The set-up for this is the initial merge angle (me going uphill, him going down; also, think back to my earlier post, where I mentioned that I want my opponent to dive past me, to a point below me, and then zoom back up). If my initial heading was north, an immelamn reversal puts me headed south (opposite for my opponent). In order for me to do that, I only need to pull a 150 degree immelman (I "cheated" and was already 30 degrees nose-up as we passed). On the other hand, my opponent needs to pull 30 degrees nose-up to return to level flight, and an additional 180 degrees to complete the same reversal... Who's coming around quicker?
There's more. My opponent was in a dive as he passed me (i.e. still accelerating). I'm nose up, so slowing down. We're both above corner speed (so both will be limited in our ability to pull a sharp turn), but while I'm reversing I'll reach corner quicker, so will have a smaller turn radius. On the other hand, he's more limited than me due to his speed. He has to reverse 210 degrees to my 150, and he'll be doing it with a higher speed/larger radius.
There's more. From what I've seen with a TON of people I've worked with in the TA is that two things are the "norm" during my opponents immelman. One, he's not making any attempt to watch me as he pulls his immelman. He's watching out of his front view (or front-up view) and hoping to reacquire me as he completes his immelman. And two, he can't see me anyway because he's almost blacked out in his turn (at least with half or more of his view closed off). That's three things in my favor so far, no matter what plane he's in.
The end result of all of this is that I'll generally come over the top of my immelman, roll wings level, and fire into his cockpit as he's still only partway through his immelman. A variation is that my timing is off. If that's the case, I may pull tighter (slower speed, but smaller, quicker reversal), or pull less tightly (faster, more retained E, slower reversal with a larger radius). Or I may miss my shot, and pull for a second immelman to come back around behind my opponent.
As far as predictable behavior goes, when my opponent is about vertical in his immelman he'll reacquire view of me and react. Most pilots won't know what to do, so you'll see some form of panic. They might lock up, and just continue doing what's already getting them killed, or they may try some last squirm of one sort or another. They don't have all that many options at that point, so if your gunnery is decent the fight is over.
An easy variation of this begins exactly the same, but is less aggressive. I like to use it on a plane that's faster than my F4U (a pony, or 190, maybe) that I suspect will not commit to a hard immelman (often, I've been trying to draw him into a fight, but he's "lurking" above an won't commit). The merge begins exactly the same, but I don't bring my nose up, and I just continue to fly past, watching for his immelman in my rear view. If he flies past, I just keep going , and gradually turn back for another attempt. Sometimes it takes a few tries to get him to pull the immelman. If he pulls the immelman, I just keep going until I'm about 2K out, and then begin a climb. He comes over the top, and is on my tail 2K out, but quickly closes to 1.5K. It's just a rope at this point. Keep my angle steep enough that he continues to gain (slower now, though) to keep him coming. Don't get my angle too steep though, or he'll catch me... I want him to stall out, or at least founder about 600-800 behind me just as I go vertical and begin dropping flaps. Done just right, he's nearly stationary as I shoot through his cockpit.
The last variation I use a lot is more risky, and is for the guy who knows better than to let me have the advantages of the merge. You recognize this guy because he's aggressive on the initial dive (just like me) and fights for the bottom of the merge. It's a dangerous variation, because a guy like this knows enough to be a real handful. On the other hand, he's predictable, and can be set up... You need to kill him quick though...
It's a fun merge though, and if you lose it's just a game, right? The merge works quite often though, because it's not predictable, while his reaction is... I like to set this guy up to beat me on the first merge, so I can beat him on the second, and get right close on his tail for a shot.
To do that, I "fight" for the bottom position on the merge. You have to look like you want it! Let him "win" the bottom position, but make him think it was grudgingly! As he goes under you, he'll pull up into his immelman and almost always be blind to you for a few seconds (read above). He's drooling... He's got you right where he wants you. His confidence will make his actions predictable. He's done this A LOT in the past; he'll do it again...
The moment he goes under you (while he's under you), roll hard left and pull a hard FLAT reversal. You CANNOT go up, at all. You must stay below him. You'll lose sight of him, but you know where he is/will be. He'll lose sight of you, and you won't be where he expects to find you. As you finish your reversal, locate him above and in front of you. He'll be most of the way through his immelman when he spots you (I can almost always see his plane roll a tad as he does this, lol). When he sees you, it's almost a guarantee he dive in for the "easy kill". As he does this, I pull up to pass under him (this is merge #2; I'm below him, heading up, he's above me, nose down, teehee!). I "lost" the first merge, so I could "win" the second... In this second merge, he'll almost always pull up in an angular zoom the moment he passes by you. This isn't a great option for him. You won't have much speed at this point, but will be able to roll and you'll be bringing your nose down by this point. The effect is that you can roll right onto his tail at about 100yds. He has too much speed left, and can't turn tight enough (he can get away if he keeps his nose down, but almost never will). By pulling up like that he stays close enough for you to stay with him, but can't maneuver well enough to get away. Clear as mud? It's a tough one to describe. If I can get into the game again soon I'll try to film it for you.
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For me, almost all fights are variations of those basic things, with just a few other things tossed in.
A common theme for me is getting them to dive past me, while I go nose up.
If they attack from above, I reverse early enough to set them up to dive in from my high right rear, while I'm in a gentle right-hand turn. The more height they have above me, the more severe I want their dive to be. I never want them directly above me though. I want them at about my 4:30 behind/right, and about 2 o'clock high. Does that make sense? As they dive in, and the counter switches to about 1.5k, I pull up. Not right at them, but about 30-40 degrees off. I then "freeze" and go straight at that nose-up angle until I see them at about D800. I then quickly roll left to show them my side, and "freeze" again (they're shifting aim now). At D600, I pull hard to come over on my back, and begin rolling left again. They'll shoot, but miss.
It all happens quickly, but that's about how my timing goes...
Again, I was going up, and they were going down as we passed (I consider it a merge of sorts, but will admit that is a stretch). They have too much speed due to their dive, and have to pull up hard. That scrubs E. Let them go up (they won't go as high now), and repeat. While they go up I'm level, and fly the direction I need to to put them as far from me horizontally as possible. I do that mainly with that roll as they went by/fired. As they prepare to come in again, I reverse back towards them to set them up to dive from my high right rear again. A couple of times of this and I may need to change things up a tad, so I'll set them up to dive in on my high LEFT rear. I prefer the high right rear though, because it allows me to roll left, and I seldom need to dodge that many attacks.
If they're aggressive they'll lose their E advantage within just a few passes, and will eventually try to dive in, slow down, and latch onto my tail. I know it's coming, am watching for it, recognize it by the slower closure rate, and have a rolling scissors waiting for them. If they're more conservative they'll give me more time between passes, and will retain their E better (as will I). If they do that, I get them to act more aggressively by maximizing horizontal separation every time they go up. They eventually get frustrated by this because they have to chase me down each time. The result is that they will almost always try to fool me and change tactics to latch onto my tail. I'm waiting for this, recognize it by the slower closure rate, and show them a rolling scissors.
So, back to the changing speeds, angles, etc idea. In a general sense, to retain E I work harder to keep my speed up. This results in "bigger" maneuvers, with less effort to turn sharply. I may do this because I'm fighting a faster plane (109, pony, P38), or because I'm fighting a slower plane that has an E advantage over me (high spit) or because I'm fighting multiple planes at the same time. It's all based on at-the-moment SA, and was learned by trial and error for the most part (I got absolutely slaughtered my first few years).
The "staples" of my fights are the angled "merges", rolling scissors and barrel roll defense, the "rope", and once in a while the scissors. Honestly, if you can get those down you'll be in good shape for almost any MA 1v1, against any plane.
Lots of rambling; I hope that gives you some more specific answers.
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Damn right I do, so do the rest of the less experienced guys reading this. We don't know the questions either. Tell us about the "General principles and how to apply them! We're hoping for more then the usual "practice and don't suck so much answers". Quit assuming that we know what you are talking about. Quit expecting that until we are able to even schedule several hours with trainers so that you can even talk to us...
This is the Training BBS, do us noobs a favor and talk us through scenarios... Quit trying to wow us with rhetoric...
You know... I know that air combat is a complex affair. But then again, I have always felt that some of the general answers offered up are nothing more then the more talented folks telling the less talented folks to, "Get better at it."
Well.... duh...
I try to learn. I watch films of more gifted pilots every chance I get. I fight in the MA. I fight when I have an advantage. I fight when there is no advantage. I fight at a disadvantage. Heck, I'm not the worst dogfighter in Aces High.
I will continue to learn general principles by attempting to apply them. By watching those who apply them well... Gleaning what I can... By schedulng sessions with trainers... etc etc The same as I always have...
Why is it so hard for the experten to understand that more specific, "He is doing this, so I am going to try this... because of..." would be more useful then, "Practice and get better"?
For god's sake! Practice what? What am I looking for? What is a mistake that a Spit16 driver might make that I can take advantage of in my Ki84 for example? I hope that you can tell me to do more then "wait for him to screw up"... That advice is worthless if I haven't learned what those screw ups are yet. Give me one... Co-alt in a Ki84 vs a Spit16, what is something that he might do that would make you think, "He screwed the pooch. Now I'm going to..." That knowledge is something that a student of air combat can build on better then the usual vague answers we see here...
Most of you who offer instruction here are TOO aware of the possible variations, and not aware enough that beginners need a starting point more then they need an "anything could happen so you better be ready" point
I admit that the Training Forum is more frustrating then helpful a lot of the time. This thread, has had a few knowledge nuggets in it, and a whole lot of ego crap.
When are you more gifted pilots going to accept that a lesser pilot would benefit more from more specific examples of "If this... then..."? Somethimg that can be easily appilied and the built upon?! We all know that there are such situations. For instance, when I spend time with 2 weekers, I will tell them that, "If he flat turns, you are usually better off doing a vertical turn." Sure it's pretty darn simple stuff, but it is something that a cartoon pilot eating cheetos at his desk while wearing navy blue sweat pants can understand and even use to his own advantage in the main arena.
Give the cheetos crowd something we can use, for god's sake!
((For the record, I don't even own any navy blue sweat pants... Just saying.))
/rant against the useless BBS experten, not you specifically FLS. Your post just set me off a bit.
Give me a few days and Ill get you something together that may work. :aok
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dang mtnman, this should be posted in a sticky. Great stuff! :aok
I do recognize alot of this, the way you describe how you defend when con is high behind you and you kinda turn into him as he gets closer. I also like to turn to the right like that, watching him through my up view as he gets closer. When he get's to D800 I point my right wing at him and starts to climb harder and harder till I get on my back. He'll pass under me as I roll left, and if I time it just right I might get a snapshot right there if he decides to climb back up.
But I would really love some training on some of those merge tactics, I also go for the lowest merge trying to get into the climb one split sec before the pass. But it's that part after that I could use some practice.. I usually ends up into a second merge, only higher and slower than the first one.. :rolleyes:
I have tried several tactics here, adjusting trottle to nose around faster, use flaps when I can.. etc etc But I never really nailed the permanent tactic that really do the trick, like that climb and roll move above. That one works really good as long as I got my speed up for it. :aok
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that's great stuff mtnman :aok much appreciated
one question while we've got you in loquacious trainer mode...could you walk through how you go about initiating the rolling scissors when someone is trying to saddle you?
I'm not too bad in a rolling scissors but only really end up in those situations fairly randomly as opposed to setting a trap to initiate it...
using the barrel roll defense on someone who is cutting throttle and lining up to saddle me generally ends up with me in the tower :s
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dang mtnman, this should be posted in a sticky. Great stuff! :aok
I do recognize alot of this, the way you describe how you defend when con is high behind you and you kinda turn into him as he gets closer. I also like to turn to the right like that, watching him through my up view as he gets closer. When he get's to D800 I point my right wing at him and starts to climb harder and harder till I get on my back. He'll pass under me as I roll left, and if I time it just right I might get a snapshot right there if he decides to climb back up.
But I would really love some training on some of those merge tactics, I also go for the lowest merge trying to get into the climb one split sec before the pass. But it's that part after that I could use some practice.. I usually ends up into a second merge, only higher and slower than the first one.. :rolleyes:
I have tried several tactics here, adjusting trottle to nose around faster, use flaps when I can.. etc etc But I never really nailed the permanent tactic that really do the trick, like that climb and roll move above. That one works really good as long as I got my speed up for it. :aok
the problem is you are describing exactly what he is talking about...habit....which is very predictable...never always do the same set up...I have found that if the enemy is coming down at me and say he is angled even slightly to the left, I will bank to the right, and vice versa... he will have to roll more so to come back to you...
also try to give yourself an opportunity to get below his nose before making a move, which when you time it right they expect you "here" but you come up "there"
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the problem is you are describing exactly what he is talking about...habit....which is very predictable...never always do the same set up...I have found that if the enemy is coming down at me and say he is angled even slightly to the left, I will bank to the right, and vice versa... he will have to roll more so to come back to you...
also try to give yourself an opportunity to get below his nose before making a move, which when you time it right they expect you "here" but you come up "there"
Yeah, I know what you mean. I don't always do the same though, but that's more because I'm still working and exploring on that part. Testing out what works and what not.. Usually I end up in the same sht anyway.. lol :rofl
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Yeah, I know what you mean. I don't always do the same though, but that's more because I'm still working and exploring on that part. Testing out what works and what not.. Usually I end up in the same sht anyway.. lol :rofl
that's how you learn :aok
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Excellent stuff Mtnman! Exactly the kind of thing that I was hoping for when I started the thread.
I appreciate all of the time and effort you have put into it, and I'm certain that I'm not alone on that score.
:salute
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very good description, mtmn... and i'd like to highlight these two concepts...
"People are creatures of habit, and are therefore predictable. Some may seem less predictable than others, but once you figure that persons patterns out, they're generally pretty predictable as well."
and
"...I may look harmless enough, but I'm dictating at least part of your attack."
then you did a good job outlining how you apply it in your merge. It's not so much about the plane(s) - they're just a variable as much as alt, speed, fuel, etc. are - it's how one thinks and executes.
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:headscratch: I know people learn differently and maybe it's just me, but I never bothered to look up a trainer or read a guide or anything. I learned by doing it, flying until I got it right. It was all instinct for me, doing what I can to get on the other guy's six. I was doing moves that I didn't know what they were called until long after when I actually bothered to read.
Do I need improvement/can improve? Sure, everyone can. But to get to a point where you can consistently land kills is the most important, and IMO, 80% of it is instinct and 20% is training for the average guy.
Myself was more like 95% instinct and 5% training. I had no one to teach me (played H2H when I first started for a year), I read almost nothing about ACM and gunnery until long after I realized I was already doing it, and it wasn't until last year that I picked a plane and focused on it (109K4). Every now and then I'll ask to DA someone and it helps me more than can you imagine. You can see how you compare to all kinds of players and work on it until you it right (shoot someone down).
TL;DR: Flying is mainly instinct and DA matches was how I learned. IMO, forget the rule book and guides, pick an opponent who is willing, fly against him and see how fast you can get on his 6 and shoot him down. It's all instinct.
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Remember a lot of proper ACM is counter intuitive and it often takes an instructor or a better player (that knows the trick) to show the how and why it works part of it. Teaching proper ACM and also being able to do it, is a rare skill that takes quite a while to develop. Think about something relatively simple for most of us vets to do like a rolling scissors or barrel roll defence and then try to describe it in words to a new pilot. That is much harder then the actual move is, I found a lot of this out after becoming a trainer. Also flying against those that are better then you, or of similiar skill, isn't this also a form of training. This is how I learned as well. But I could have cut out a lot of time with a proper trainer, that I learned the long hard way. The proof is in the pudding as they say, I think most here that have worked with a trainer for a couple of sessions, will tell you they learned more in about 3 hours of training time then they would have learned in 6 months otherwise.
:salute
BigRat
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:headscratch: I know people learn differently and maybe it's just me, but I never bothered to look up a trainer or read a guide or anything. I learned by doing it, flying until I got it right. It was all instinct for me, doing what I can to get on the other guy's six. I was doing moves that I didn't know what they were called until long after when I actually bothered to read.
Do I need improvement/can improve? Sure, everyone can. But to get to a point where you can consistently land kills is the most important, and IMO, 80% of it is instinct and 20% is training for the average guy.
Myself was more like 95% instinct and 5% training. I had no one to teach me (played H2H when I first started for a year), I read almost nothing about ACM and gunnery until long after I realized I was already doing it, and it wasn't until last year that I picked a plane and focused on it (109K4). Every now and then I'll ask to DA someone and it helps me more than can you imagine. You can see how you compare to all kinds of players and work on it until you it right (shoot someone down).
TL;DR: Flying is mainly instinct and DA matches was how I learned. IMO, forget the rule book and guides, pick an opponent who is willing, fly against him and see how fast you can get on his 6 and shoot him down. It's all instinct.
I find this an interesting take on things! I would like to comment on some of it though.
When learning a new skill a person goes through a couple of stages,the first being the basics of W5{who, what,where,etc} then you get to the cognitive stage where you know the basics but still must think about what you have to do.Then with time, experience and many hours of repetitive practice you eventually get to the instinctive stage.
At this stage you no longer have to think what to do next you just do it,pare and counter,he reaches in you throw the uppercut without think and it lands because of all the time and practice you've done you know that will work. Same with flying,fighting,golf any sport or activity,it's just the way we learn.
I've trained people over the years,not just in AH but in other endevors such as boxing,flyfishing and TKD.
Every single person went through these stages and hopefully at 1 point a light went on and things clicked,thats when it becomes instinctive.
YMMV.
:salute
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one question while we've got you in loquacious trainer mode...could you walk through how you go about initiating the rolling scissors when someone is trying to saddle you?
I'm not too bad in a rolling scissors but only really end up in those situations fairly randomly as opposed to setting a trap to initiate it...
using the barrel roll defense on someone who is cutting throttle and lining up to saddle me generally ends up with me in the tower :s
I haven't left this hanging, I just haven't had time to go through my videos and find some examples yet.
With the barrel roll defense, a key point is setting up the correct angle for your opponent to attack from. This allows you to keep your speed nearly as high as your attackers, but still have the rate of closure you need. This way, he can slow down by cutting throttle, but is still forced to close at a rate that allows you to get the overshoot.
And actually, an opponent who attacks like that is EXACTLY what you want to see, since it's what allows you to draw him into a rolling scissors...
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:headscratch: I know people learn differently and maybe it's just me, but I never bothered to look up a trainer or read a guide or anything. I learned by doing it, flying until I got it right. It was all instinct for me, doing what I can to get on the other guy's six. I was doing moves that I didn't know what they were called until long after when I actually bothered to read.
Do I need improvement/can improve? Sure, everyone can. But to get to a point where you can consistently land kills is the most important, and IMO, 80% of it is instinct and 20% is training for the average guy.
Myself was more like 95% instinct and 5% training. I had no one to teach me (played H2H when I first started for a year), I read almost nothing about ACM and gunnery until long after I realized I was already doing it, and it wasn't until last year that I picked a plane and focused on it (109K4). Every now and then I'll ask to DA someone and it helps me more than can you imagine. You can see how you compare to all kinds of players and work on it until you it right (shoot someone down).
TL;DR: Flying is mainly instinct and DA matches was how I learned. IMO, forget the rule book and guides, pick an opponent who is willing, fly against him and see how fast you can get on his 6 and shoot him down. It's all instinct.
Same here; only formal training I had was about 10 minutes in the P-47 covering just some very basic tactics (ie, don't get caught low and slow, get close before shooting, etc), and MAYBE 1/2 an hour in the La-7, which was mostly just winging up.
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The spitfire hardly defined England's 'unbroken spirit'. Even saying that it exemplifies that spirit is greatly stretching a point.
I mean the UK had at one point, what, like 50 operational spitfires during the Battle of Britain, while the Hurricanes bore the brunt of the work? No matter how laughable giving so fearsome a name to so sedate a fighter is, it sounds as though you ought to be praising the Hurricane over the Spitfire.
Or did you mean to say it defined the spirit of letting the USA bear the brunt of the work later on in the war?
I didn't realize there was anybody still relying on the German "Intelligence" reports from the summer of 1940 as their source for RAF availability.
Tank-Ace,
Don't be so pro-German, anti-British. It is too stereotypically Luftwaffle. The British never lacked for operational fighters during the Battle of Britain as they were building them faster than they were losing them and much faster than the Germans were building Bf109s at the time. What the British were running short on were pilots which were far harder to replace than a mere Hurricane or Spitfire. About 1/3rd of the RAF fighters that fought in the Battle of Britain were Spitfires and about 2/3rds were Hurricanes.
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I didn't realize there was anybody still relying on the German "Intelligence" reports from the summer of 1940 as their source for RAF availability.
Tank-Ace,
Don't be so pro-German, anti-British. It is too stereotypically Luftwaffle. The British never lacked for operational fighters during the Battle of Britain as they were building them faster than they were losing them and much faster than the Germans were building Bf109s at the time. What the British were running short on were pilots which were far harder to replace than a mere Hurricane or Spitfire. About 1/3rd of the RAF fighters that fought in the Battle of Britain were Spitfires and about 2/3rds were Hurricanes.
Don't take my post so seriously, I was just returning fire.
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Or did you mean to say it defined the spirit of letting the USA bear the brunt of the work later on in the war?
Wow. What an ignorant and offensive comment.
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Don't take my post so seriously, I was just returning fire.
Returning fire originally shot by you? :rolleyes:
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Yeah, its still returning fire :rolleyes:.
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Yeah, its still returning fire :rolleyes:.
But you started it... :lol
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But you started it... :lol
Yeah, and your point is...... oh right, theres no point to be made, so you can't have a point.
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Yeah, and your point is...... oh right, theres no point to be made, so you can't have a point.
No, my point is that your trying to save face for something you said earlier. It just takes a non-ignorant person to realize it. :aok
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dudes, the war was over almost 70 years ago. :noid the spits won. :banana: this is just a game. :joystick:
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dudes, the war was over almost 70 years ago. :noid the spits won. :banana: this is just a game. :joystick:
:banana:
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No, my point is that your trying to save face for something you said earlier. It just takes a non-ignorant person to realize it. :aok
Did I start the exchange? Yes. Was I still responding to something you said? Also yes.
I have respect for the British flyers, and the spitifre in real life. However, I don't respect the distastefully used cartoon version of the spitfire, nor those more expierienced pilots who are capable of more, yet still use the spitfires.
Its not even a bias, I look down on P-51's and 190's that play the BnZ and run game. I look down on the ones that HO or cherry pick. I talk down to the pilots of such aircraft to.
I don't feel the need to save face; I don't know Karnak from a hill of beans, I can't recall ever fighting or even seeing him in game, and lately hes been showing a great deal of ignorance and petulance on the GV issue. I really don't give a damn about his opinion right now.
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dudes, the war was over almost 70 years ago. :noid the spits won. :banana: this is just a game.
Shane has become the voice of reason.
Someone call the medics. Quick. We don't want to lose him.
- oldman
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I have respect for the British flyers, and the spitifre in real life.
The spitfire hardly defined England's 'unbroken spirit'. Even saying that it exemplifies that spirit is greatly stretching a point.
I mean the UK had at one point, what, like 50 operational spitfires during the Battle of Britain, while the Hurricanes bore the brunt of the work? No matter how laughable giving so fearsome a name to so sedate a fighter is, it sounds as though you ought to be praising the Hurricane over the Spitfire.
Or did you mean to say it defined the spirit of letting the USA bear the brunt of the work later on in the war?
Clearly great respect. Not sure how we all missed that part. :rolleyes:
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As I said, I was replying to an earlier comment. I have no problem making fun of just about anything in jest. Religion, polotics, humanity in general, doesn't really matter. But I wouldn't insult the british or their flyers in earnest under any circumstances, just as I wouldn't insult the Germans, Americans, Japanese, Russians, or anyone.
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As I said, I was replying to an earlier comment. I have no problem making fun of just about anything in jest. Religion, polotics, humanity in general, doesn't really matter. But I wouldn't insult the british or their flyers in earnest under any circumstances, just as I wouldn't insult the Germans, Americans, Japanese, Russians, or anyone.
But you clearly did with this post.
Quote from: Tank-Ace on April 07, 2012, 03:53:53 PM
The spitfire hardly defined England's 'unbroken spirit'. Even saying that it exemplifies that spirit is greatly stretching a point.
I mean the UK had at one point, what, like 50 operational spitfires during the Battle of Britain, while the Hurricanes bore the brunt of the work? No matter how laughable giving so fearsome a name to so sedate a fighter is, it sounds as though you ought to be praising the Hurricane over the Spitfire.
Or did you mean to say it defined the spirit of letting the USA bear the brunt of the work later on in the war?
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So you've gained omniscience have you? Become some all-knowing knowing being that can see into my heart and mind?
I post that with intent to one-up the previous comment, and I achieved that. I didn't post that with intent to belittle the British. I admit I was walking close to the line, and may have even trodden on it, but then again, how much of a damn I'm not giving...... its just a stounding.
If I really wanted to insult the british, I would go about it by poking fun at their follies in other areas, such as the whole appeasment thing immedeatly prior to WWII, or letting Motgomory get in the way of battlefield success for political reasons, not by poking fun at their military.
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Spitfires are approached like every other fighter - What is your ALT compared to him? what is your speed compared to him? What does your aircraft excel in?
If you hold the advantage - you attack like normal, use your aircrafts advantages to weaken the spits speed or alt - if you are flying defensive then there really isn't much you can do over all.
The spit performs quite well in all areas, climb rate, dive, turn radius, speed - if your aircraft doesn't improve in one of those areas then you simply have to rely on luck, and hope the pilot makes a mistake.
Prime example:
Flew a C.205 which has a 109's engine, which means it climbs extremely well and has a pretty good gun package, its turn radius is terrible however. I had a spit dive on me and I reversed to meet him head on, he instantly tried to break into a turn fight
and bled his energy off quick. I went over the top using my climb rate and kept my speed up while he bled everything off right away on the first turn.
He should of easily out turned me or kept boom and zooming, but I used my climb rate and energy to defeat him. Nothing more then luck and a novice pilot, any skilled pilot would of zoom climbed back up and set the engagement up again.
I had no chance to disengage as my window closed before I could make the move.
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Butcher,
The Spitfires VIII, IX, XIV and XVI will all easily out climb the C.205. Unless it was a Mk I, Mk V or Seafire you out flew your opponent, not out climbed him due to your aircraft.
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Butcher,
The Spitfires VIII, IX, XIV and XVI will all easily out climb the C.205. Unless it was a Mk I, Mk V or Seafire you out flew your opponent, not out climbed him due to your aircraft.
He mishandled his energy is the point I made, and the Spit 9 does not outclimb the 205 with wep or not until beyond 7k.
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If it was a spit VIII or XVI out of wep, he could have out climbed it with WEP. Barely, but he could have out-climbed it.
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Questions: How to approach a spit, Jug/Hog driver perspective.
Answer: From above.
1v1 spit above or co-alt: Extend if possible and try to return higher. The higher the alt at the start of the fight, the better. The jug closes some of the climb gap with altitude and gets a good 400-600fpm boost when 50% fuel and with the light gun package (D-25,D40) so the lighter the better as well. It is possible to stall fight a spit to some degree above 15k though still a tricky proposition. The jug can kick out flaps at 400+, it will almost hold its own in a descending defensive spiral with flaps out. In a worst case scenario against a good spit that gets the upper hand, the jug dive away and get some separation in the process. Assuming the spit follows, high speed maneuver (>450) heavily favors the jug. In a dive, jug roll is superior, G-onset is superior (the spit is much more responsive in pitch) and a descending scissors starting with a hard turn corkscrewing back into a climb will often black out the spit driver (his turn is harder since may simply pull lead for a gun solution) or even better snap his wings. If the spit stays with you he will at least now be substantially out of phase given out the advantage in a high speed ascending (maybe 45-60 deg) scissors. Drop flaps and use throttle as necessary and the out of phase spit stands a good chance of sitting in front of you albeit in a potential rope situation. If this fails and you still have >10k alt, kick the rudder in and head toward the ground again ASAP, you will need the speed to regain the roll advantage and put him out of phase as you again gain separation.
1v1 or many vs many spit below: I am much less concerned about the spit in a many v many situation even if the spit happens to be above. As the size of the engagement increases, advantage swings more toward aircraft types with snapshot capability and toughness, IE US iron. There is nothing to fear from a spit 3-5k below you in the short term. When I come across a furball the following questions go through my mind: 1. Who can kill me soonest? 2. Who is the easiest prey now? If I don't have much of an alt buffer on the cons I'm hitting then special attention does to the dora or la-7 that could eventually run me down. (Most LW U.S, birds do 343 or above on the deck, on par with the spit16) The answer to question 2 is usually "spit." The wings are horribly weak and spit drivers love to use a break turn to get out of trouble. The tail digs in and they are perpendicular to you an an instant giving an easy shot to virtually 100% of their wing area. What they fail to recognize is that by pulling too sharply they are actually decreasing the rate at which they move away from your gun solution (happens with hurris and zekes too) if you can expect it, it works like a champ. When picking on a group of spits do your best to spread out your passes between them. If you focus on one you will get fixated and not interrupt the building of E going on below you. A spit turning is not a spit extending- you've taken the energy you'd spend anyway and forced a second spit into dumping E to evade you.
In closing: The spit was made to shoot down other planes and it does it very well. It evolved as an interceptor and the LW U.S. birds show attention more to range, safety and ground pounding vice maneuver. The Hellcat would probably not have been as successful against the zeke had the engagements taken place 1v1 in a small cage but fact was the Hellcat flew en masse and did great against the zeke. If you're going to fly U.S. you're better off with a wingman than in a 1v1.
Weaknesses: Poor roll at high speeds, small clip, poor deflection shooting capability compared to most U.S. planes, lacks toughness, rapid G-onset at times, lack of combat flaps, lack of legit ground attack capability.
Strengths: Acceleration, climb, turn rate/radius.
For most MA scenarios I prefer my F6F, P47, P38 or Hog to the spit. I never flew it enough to "master" it but just enough to know what it could do. My k/d remained stable compared to flying US rides- the plane is uber when it comes to dogfight maneuvering but not uber overall due to its toughness. Unless I have a spit on my short 6, I'll take a jug any day.