Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: bustr on May 29, 2012, 10:57:54 AM
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It's here and it's got realllly BIG GUNS.
Me410
Great cockpit...................... ......... :joystick:
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:O
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Sweet
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Awesome, It probably has got the best details of any AH plane yet :aok :rock
How are we going to man the remote guns?
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Am i reading it correctly, 1,500 rounds of CAN or is it 1,300?
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Oh lawds its beautiful.
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Great. Will you get it for christmas?
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Beautiful HTC. New toys make me happy! :aok
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Am i reading it correctly, 1,500 rounds of CAN or is it 1,300?
The HTC person taking the screen shot might have 10x ammo set in offline mode. Though the A1 was a light bomber with 2-MG 17 and 2-MG151/20 in the nose. It's possible that is the ammo loadout for the A1 light bomber version.
OOps, just counted. They modeled the 4-MG and 4-20mm version. It also has rocket tubes under the wings.
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Those Mk103s...god....jfisbckwisbjd isbfksksbdkajowlfosvvsyabfjfk due
Sorry, I was wiping stuff off my keyboard.
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Bet it's a perked ride.
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Absolutely beautiful aircraft. :aok
now, i wonder how much it will cost to :airplane:
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Bet it's a perked ride.
10.0 ENY, 5 perks?
Hopefully the 110 will have it's ENY bumped to 20.0 :pray
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410 perked? spixteen isnt? sigh, whatever...
wow, you might wanna think consequently... maybe eny10.
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:x :x :x :x :x :x
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yeah right, think of it as dozens of perks. should be highly perked not as much as a 262 but way up there. and that is one ugly azzzz airplane, but the cannons are nice.
semp
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Why would you perk the 410 :headscratch:
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Why would you perk the 410 :headscratch:
Why would anyone take a 110G over this if it wasn't perked? It'll be the new vTard weapon of choice over the Pony.
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(http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/stories/news/me410/me410-6.jpg)
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Dose it have the speed, clime, acceleration over the spit 16? I highly doubt it.
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:x :x :x :x :x :rock :rock :rock :rock :rock :rock :banana: :banana: :banana:
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AHHHH BIG GUN
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/stories/news/me410/me410-1.jpg)
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Question when being hit with the 50mm will you disco to desktop? :devil
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The 410 BEFORE it finds it's sheep...
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/stories/news/me410/me410-6.jpg)
AHHHH BIG GUN
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/stories/news/me410/me410-1.jpg)
...AFTER it finds it's sheep. :D
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YAY!! :x :x :x :rock :rock :rock :banana: :banana: :banana:
Thanks for the late Christmas gift HTC!! :cheers:
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YAY!! :x :x :x :rock :rock :rock :banana: :banana: :banana:
Thanks for the late Christmas gift HTC!! :cheers:
Which x-mas? This one coming or the one AFTER? :noid :lol
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It's here and it's got realllly BIG GUNS.
Me410
Great cockpit...................... ......... :joystick:
I just had to take a break from work this morning to poke in here
and say
QUAH! [/i]
:O :x :aok :rock :joystick: :banana: :neener:
(edit: something funny with the italic bbs tags today... probabley nothing new)
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Why would anyone take a 110G over this if it wasn't perked?
With that logic we would have to perk the Spit 16, La7, 190D9 and so on... ;)
Many times in the history of AH planes and vehicles have lost all their popularity when a 'better' ride was introduced. That alone is no reason for perkage.
And unlike the Pony you are mentioning, the 410 will still be substrantially outclassed by most fighters and not being able to run away either.
Prediction: For the first weeks we will see the 410 everywhere as a novelty ride, and then it will simply replace the 110G, just with more buff hunting usage on top
The only kind of perking I could imagine was a seperate perked version for the BK-5, as it could be an effective bomber sniper in AH... but we'll see...
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I can't wait to see what the damage looks like as it falls apart.
Homely looking bird.
The only "perk" it will see is the coffee pot in the tower. :ahand
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Homely plane but a nice skin.
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As much as I like my P38, I'd definitely be willing to learn this ride for the novelty alone.
If it becomes a dominant ride or is too prevalent, I won't bother.
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As much as I like my P38, I'd definitely be willing to learn this ride for the novelty alone.
If it becomes a dominant ride or is too prevalent, I won't bother.
I see it getting lots of use on GVs.
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It looks great and I look forward to playing with it.
As to it being perked, yeah right.
The only thing I can see as perkable, and that would only be if they added the "Perk Ordnance" system in the next version, would be the 50mm BK5 as it has the capability to snipe bombers from outside their defensive gun range.
The MG151/20 and MK103 loadouts are in no way perkable.
As to why you might fly the Bf110G-2 instead of the Me410, well, maybe you like to turnfight or maybe you like the Bf110 better or maybe you want to earn more perks.
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As much as I like my P38, I'd definitely be willing to learn this ride for the novelty alone.
If it becomes a dominant ride or is too prevalent, I won't bother.
If it performs better than the 110`s fighter wise should be a hoot!
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I see it getting lots of use on GVs.
The BK5 should not get any AP, and with that the 410 should not be much different than the 110 in that role. A20 will still rule ;)
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Yep. Faster with better climb and likely more ammo than the 87 G2. But I think the BK-5 will only have HE ammo, as I do not recall reading anywhere that it was used in the AT role. Still, Panzer F's and H's will have to worry. If you can take out those tanks fairly easy with a 9T's and 39's 37mm, it will be no problem for you to do it with the BK-5. :devil
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If it performs better than the 110`s fighter wise should be a hoot!
I hope it doesn't, otherwise it will be all you'll see in the MA. I still shudder when I remember the C-hog days...
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If it performs better than the 110`s fighter wise should be a hoot!
It should be a bit faster with better climb/acceleration, but the Bf110 should turn better. No idea about roll rate.
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I hope it doesn't, otherwise it will be all you'll see in the MA. I still shudder when I remember the C-hog days...
Absolutely no danger of happening.
By the way, in some ways the P-51 is nowadays even more 'dominating' the AH battlefield than the C-hog was... :noid
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The 110G turns very well as long as it has energy. Even if the 410 is a bit worse, it still can be a decent one.
Btw, its a bit slower than the spixteen, climbs, rolls, turns, accelerates, scissors a lot worse, all it has on the spit is guns. Eny10 or maybe 8.
Cant wait to try it... damn, really
:lol
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The 110 will not be replaced by the 410 because it's current G2 with the extra cannons throws easily as much damage downrange as most any 410 type.
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I still shudder when I remember the C-hog days...
:old: :devil
Those days stretched into months if I remember right. :D
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The 110G turns very well as long as it has energy. Even if the 410 is a bit worse, it still can be a decent one.
Btw, its a bit slower than the spixteen, climbs, rolls, turns, accelerates, scissors a lot worse, all it has on the spit is guns. Eny10 or maybe 8.
Cant wait to try it... damn, really
:lol
Unless the Me410 performs much better than I have seen indicated anywhere, the Mosquito Mk VI will be superior in terms of air-to-air capability below 13,000ft.
Does that dominate AH? No. There is no reason to think the Me410 will be a dominating factor.
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About the perk possibility. I see that a rather large number of people wore their mystical turbins and brought their magic crystal balls with them today.
People are right, it's no equal to a spit 16 in everything but armament. Armament however weighs heavier, upon examination, than almost any other atribute in the game in effecting a vehicle/plane's ENY.
Anyone familiar with the ENY scaling/difference between the two current 110 versions in game wouldn't hesitate to hedge that the 410 will be perked (BUT, if you're famiar with the ENY of the K4 (20.0), then only lord knows how high the 30mm armed 410 can go with its ENY).
Looking at the recent addition of the B-29 - surely it's healthy perk value is guaged from it being the hardest AC to takeoff with heavy in this game, its average (heavy) climbout time from 0-30k taking over an hour, or that it has (very well possibley) the highest spontaneous combustion from damage potential above the paper mache japaneese planes...
I got to get back to work for now. I honestly don't think it will be perked - it's late war; it will live, thrive or die amongst K4s, D9s, 51Ds, SpitXVIs, LA7s... BUT to scale in line with the current 110 standard, it will have an ENY of 0.25 (so... IF it doesn't get perked (which it most likely shouldn't), are we finally going to see the german planeset's ENY (re-?)balanced?... that would be almost as cool as the brand spanking new 410 with a BK5. :aok
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With that logic we would have to perk the Spit 16, La7, 190D9 and so on... ;)
Many times in the history of AH planes and vehicles have lost all their popularity when a 'better' ride was introduced. That alone is no reason for perkage.
And unlike the Pony you are mentioning, the 410 will still be substrantially outclassed by most fighters and not being able to run away either.
Prediction: For the first weeks we will see the 410 everywhere as a novelty ride, and then it will simply replace the 110G, just with more buff hunting usage on top
The only kind of perking I could imagine was a seperate perked version for the BK-5, as it could be an effective bomber sniper in AH... but we'll see...
Those planes SHOULD be perked. But for some reason they aren't. They out perform every other plane in at least 1 category, with the exception of the Spit16. I dont understand why the La-7, 190D, P51D and K4 aren't perked. I'm not asking Tempest -50 perks, just 5 or even less. Theyre top of the line performers yet aren't limited whatsoever.
K4- Speed/acceleration
La-7 - Speed/Acceleration
P51- Speed/Ords
190D- Speed/Acceleration
Tempest -Speed/Acceleration
F4U4 - Everything
F4U1C - Firepower
Spit14 - Climb rate (the highest besides 163 IIRC)
With the 410, it would have the firepower that makes it eligible to be perked.
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Those planes SHOULD be perked. But for some reason they aren't. They out perform every other plane in at least 1 category, with the exception of the Spit16. I dont understand why the La-7, 190D, P51D and K4 aren't perked. I'm not asking Tempest -50 perks, just 5 or even less. Theyre top of the line performers yet aren't limited whatsoever.
K4- Speed/acceleration
La-7 - Speed/Acceleration
P51- Speed/Ords
190D- Speed/Acceleration
Tempest -Speed/Acceleration
F4U4 - Everything
F4U1C - Firepower
Spit14 - Climb rate (the highest besides 163 IIRC)
With the 410, it would have the firepower that makes it eligible to be perked.
By that logic the Bf110G-2 or Mosquito Mk VI should be perked for firepower right now. Do you see either of those needing to be perked or even set to 5 ENY? Seriously?
You can't just pull stats like that in isolation and use them to determine if it should be perked.
Also, climb and acceleration are pretty much the same thing, though top speed affects where you see that peak acceleration. If the Spitfire Mk XIV is the best climbing aircraft then it is also the best accelerating aircraft.
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Unless the Me410 performs much better than I have seen indicated anywhere, the Mosquito Mk VI will be superior in terms of air-to-air capability below 13,000ft.
Does that dominate AH? No. There is no reason to think the Me410 will be a dominating factor.
I'm pretty sure that was his point.
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I'm pretty sure that was his point.
I know. I was supporting his position.
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By that logic the Bf110G-2 or Mosquito Mk VI should be perked for firepower right now. Do you see either of those needing to be perked or even set to 5 ENY? Seriously?
You can't just pull stats like that in isolation and use them to determine if it should be perked.
Also, climb and acceleration are pretty much the same thing, though top speed affects where you see that peak acceleration. If the Spitfire Mk XIV is the best climbing aircraft then it is also the best accelerating aircraft.
Those planes dont need to be perked because they do not have the speed or performance to get away from trouble. The 410 will take the #1 spot for firepower, therefore, it needs to be perked, albeit, very low.
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Question when being hit with the 50mm will you disco to desktop? :devil
You travel back in time.
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I know. I was supporting his position.
Oh yeah? Well.......... ok then.
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Those planes SHOULD be perked. But for some reason they aren't. They out perform every other plane in at least 1 category, with the exception of the Spit16. I dont understand why the La-7, 190D, P51D and K4 aren't perked. I'm not asking Tempest -50 perks, just 5 or even less. Theyre top of the line performers yet aren't limited whatsoever.
K4- Speed/acceleration
La-7 - Speed/Acceleration
P51- Speed/Ords
190D- Speed/Acceleration
Tempest -Speed/Acceleration
F4U4 - Everything
F4U1C - Firepower
Spit14 - Climb rate (the highest besides 163 IIRC)
With the 410, it would have the firepower that makes it eligible to be perked.
LA7s below 7k are AH's most popular UFO, right behind the Claw. Otherwise, they're relatively harmless above 7k and you should be paying them perks for giving it to you so easy, but !@#$% do they do some stupidly impossible maneuvers on the deck (is it small and light or small and heavy with its stuby wings? it would seem it is both at the same time).
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Those planes SHOULD be perked. But for some reason they aren't. They out perform every other plane in at least 1 category, with the exception of the Spit16. I dont understand why the La-7, 190D, P51D and K4 aren't perked. I'm not asking Tempest -50 perks, just 5 or even less. Theyre top of the line performers yet aren't limited whatsoever.
K4- Speed/acceleration
La-7 - Speed/Acceleration
P51- Speed/Ords
190D- Speed/Acceleration
Tempest -Speed/Acceleration
F4U4 - Everything
F4U1C - Firepower
Spit14 - Climb rate (the highest besides 163 IIRC)
With the 410, it would have the firepower that makes it eligible to be perked.
The absolute top speed at alt is an overrated stat as it pertains to fighting in AH.
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LA7s below 7k are AH's most popular UFO, right behind the Claw. Otherwise, they're relatively harmless above 7k and you should be paying them perks for giving it to you so easy, but !@#$% do they do some stupidly impossible maneuvers on the deck (is it small and light or small and heavy with this stuby wings? it would seem it is both at the same time).
Start a new thread about it. I'd love to hear more.
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You travel back in time.
The super tater will give you approx 1.21 Gigawatts and once it hits 188 mph... You're gonna see some serious :banana:
Wish I was still flying around so I could take it off the lot for a few. :D
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http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,334215.0.html
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The Luftwaffles should stop crying for the 410 now.
Can't wait to shoot these down in the scenario (This addition may help scenario participation numbers a bit).
Hopefully the ENY is low, right around 5 or 10.
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It's here and it's got realllly BIG GUNS.
Me410
Great cockpit...................... ......... :joystick:
wait? it's ingame NOW??
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http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,334215.0.html
looked didn't see it sorry to steal your thunder
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The absolute top speed at alt is an overrated stat as it pertains to fighting in AH.
It's what make a fight or not at all in the first place. No matter how good you are, you're not catching an La-7 in a P40 even though you are well capable of killing the La7 "noob" in a fight.
Planes with high speeds can dictate the fight. Which is why I don't understand why they aren't perked. I would understand if the 410 isn't perked due to it's massive firepower because it'll never have the speed to use it on the top tier planes (though I still think it should be perked). I WOULDN'T understand why a plane like the La-7 or 190D isn't perked. They have the speed to catch or outrun almost all planes AND have the firepower to kill once they are close enough with relative ease.
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looks to me like it's pretty easy to get a pilot wound--but i did vote for it
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looks to me like it's pretty easy to get a pilot wound--but i did vote for it
HA, if rounds are impacting I'm catching a PW no matter what I fly.
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I just blew my load
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One question I never thought to ask was about the flash. With the visibility really enhanced looking downward, does the flash blind the pilot? I know the guns/cannons have flash suppressors though those are not complete. Certainly at night I could see this being a big issue.
Anyone know?
Boo
PS Great shots, and just in time for Grosse Schlagg this Fall! New strategies to protect the ubber buff killers.
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Me410 and a Stuka.... I just came :banana:
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I'm sure there are sound guidelines or criteria for perking a ride. With the 410, as Lusche stated maybe the 50mm gun pack is perked, but the bird as a whole is not.
I could see the 50mm pack being a sniper in the MA. You fly around, 25k, pray you don't run into any fighters, hunting buffs. You see a random flight of B-24s/B-17s/Lancs, drop down in altitude, slow down a bit and park on their "6" at 1.5k and start taking shots at them. Short of 999000, no one touches you. Within minutes you've killed all three buffs, feel pretty good about yourself, 'lather, rinse, repeat' until a lone fighter shows up. At this point life changes.
If the above becomes common I think we see more buffs flying with a buddy for protection. That alone is worth it. If you want to kill buffs, gotta get through the escort first. Who knows but should be fun to see how it happens.
Boo
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Great job Superfly and Cactus!
Haven't been this exited about a new plane since Brewster was introduced. :)
The Luftwaffles should stop crying for the 410 now.
:headscratch:
Who's crying?
Hmm...aren't people allowed to be exited to fly it? Or what are you saying?
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once the 410 gets here the 110 is going to be a hangar queen :ahand
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Doesn't the 410 have a worse wing loading than the 110, i.e. it won't turn as well?
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Doesn't the 410 have a worse wing loading than the 110, i.e. it won't turn as well?
Yep, the difference is quite clear. AFAIK the airfoils between the 110 and 410 quite similar and both have slats and slotted flaps.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f147/Wmaker/twinscomparison.jpg)
(Me410 will most likely be faster on the deck than my table lists, probably somewhere around 330-340mph)
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So whens it going to be in game? 2 weeks? :lol
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If perking a ride was based purely on speed, the P-47-M (fastest American ride to see combat) would be perked. 410 is looking like a fun kill. Simple as avoiding the HO and smack like a little baby. Just like the 110, Mossie, Typh, and so on.
:salute to HTC for adding more fodder for my Jug.
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We already have rockets that allow you, if employed correctly, to kill buffs from far beyond their effective range of defenses. Its a non-issue because there are only a select few who aren't totally useless with them. The BK50 can probably be put in the same box. If it gets out of control, add perks. No need to punish it beforehand.
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The BK5 will make it the B25H with the manuverability you wish it had, with aproximently the gun.
The more salient question is the two MK103. The same projectile and power of the K4 but at 860m\sec versus 500m\sec. You now have the equivalent balistics of the Mossi6's hissos but, each projectile has the HE power of the Stielhandgranate 24 stick grenade. Your accuracy is in the NS-37 realm x2. Kind of like a flying 2 gun manuverable Ostwind with Hail Mary power out to 800 or 1000 against runners with a good gunsight.
Thats a bit of mischief if you plan it right in missions, or know your way around flying 110 light in furballs, or want something really irritating to HO with as part of a hoard of newbies. It might make CHog status for all the rest of those average type players against each other. It's not what happens after the shine wares off on a new toy. It's the new toy WoW energy put into trying it out before the blush wears off. That's going to be alot of WoW every time one or both of those 860m\sec M-Geschoss ruins someones best evasive manuvering or running by accident.
Might keep average players HOing longer than you think before the hanger gets it's new queen.
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thats the most modern looking cockpit in a WW2 bird ive seen.
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Doesn't the 410 have a worse wing loading than the 110, i.e. it won't turn as well?
And hang a ton or two of iron canon on it and a ton or two of 18" shells.
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Hmm...aren't people allowed to be exited to fly it? Or what are you saying?
A light-hearted jab at the german iron fliers. Don't worry - english isn't your first language.
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We have a fascinating ability to push aircraft in the MA to the edge of their manuvering envelopes to discover ways of using our aircraft the designers would probably not have sanctioned as SOP in a combat environment. But, we get perfict examples on every runway spawn along with perfict fuel and weapons.
Has anyone noticed with all three versions HTC has left the nose and lower nose view panels in place? How many of you raise your forward view up to see down and over the nose of your fighter? Now you just look down to see which way your con is turning.
If you can make a 110 dance and chew players up furballing, I'll wait to see what happens with this on 25% fuel and those MK103 in the hands of some of our unbeleivable furballers. As usual we beat the new ride to death with real world facts. Then find ways to fly it that leaves some of those facts waving in the breeze.
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In my opinion, the Me410 will dethrone the Mosquito Mk VI as having the best air-to-air armament in the game. Currently the Me262 and Bf110G-2, but the ballistics are so poor that I think the four Hispano Mk IIs are better for fighter vs fighter work. The Me410's MK103s change that.
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We already have rockets that allow you, if employed correctly, to kill buffs from far beyond their effective range of defenses. Its a non-issue because there are only a select few who aren't totally useless with them. The BK50 can probably be put in the same box. If it gets out of control, add perks. No need to punish it beforehand.
I agree. :aok
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How much do you think we will have to lead when sniping bombers?
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I'm sure there are sound guidelines or criteria for perking a ride. With the 410, as Lusche stated maybe the 50mm gun pack is perked, but the bird as a whole is not.
I could see the 50mm pack being a sniper in the MA. You fly around, 25k, pray you don't run into any fighters, hunting buffs. You see a random flight of B-24s/B-17s/Lancs, drop down in altitude, slow down a bit and park on their "6" at 1.5k and start taking shots at them. Short of 999000, no one touches you. Within minutes you've killed all three buffs, feel pretty good about yourself, 'lather, rinse, repeat' until a lone fighter shows up. At this point life changes.
If the above becomes common I think we see more buffs flying with a buddy for protection. That alone is worth it. If you want to kill buffs, gotta get through the escort first. Who knows but should be fun to see how it happens.
Boo
Boo, interesting point, but the bombers could themselves chop throttle. That 1.5K distance will quickly become 1K and less.
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A light-hearted jab at the german iron fliers. Don't worry - english isn't your first language.
No worries, I understood it perfectly.
Just another quick, dumb knee-jerk reaction that wasn't quite thought through. This BBS is (unfortunately) full of likes of you who do it plenty.
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Boo, interesting point, but the bombers could themselves chop throttle. That 1.5K distance will quickly become 1K and less.
It also causes them to mess up their rocket attack, pretty badly. :D
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It also causes them to mess up their rocket attack, pretty badly. :D
Heh, never thought of that. I'm not familiar with A2A rockets though. Generally speed = life in a bomber, but there are a few situations when dumping some speed can help.
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Heh, never thought of that. I'm not familiar with A2A rockets though. Generally speed = life in a bomber, but there are a few situations when dumping some speed can help.
It's in the timing too. Timed badly, and you'll still catch a piece of it, otherwise they will explode harmlessly in front of you. Most of the folks I encountered, ended up "dumping" their rockets the moment they noticed that I've chopped my throttle. Most of them pressed their attack, with the common end result of coming in dead 6 to a formation of bombers. :devil
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Its perk cost will be roughly 30% less than a Mossie's or 25% more than a Bf110g2's whichever is greater. :x
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How much do you think we will have to lead when sniping bombers?
I made a rough graph some times ago, showing shell drop over distance. Axis' are not to scale:
(http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/3122/clipboard01kut.jpg)
German gun data was taken from original documents, I had a hard time finding any numbers for allied guns. I had to compute the .50 cal trajectory, but take that with a grain of salt...
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I made a rough graph some times ago, showing shell drop over distance. Axis' are not to scale:
(http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/3122/clipboard01kut.jpg)
German gun data was taken from original documents, I had a hard time finding any numbers for allied guns. I had to compute the .50 cal trajectory, but take that with a grain of salt...
....
The Girl and the Robot(in the sig)
Snailman, likes Roeyksopp? I guess their darker album Senior would could fit the mood of a plane with armed to the teeth with guns... but then again, something way less cerebral like Accept's "Balls to the wall" would be more fitting....
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No worries, I understood it perfectly.
Just another quick, dumb knee-jerk reaction that wasn't quite thought through. This BBS is (unfortunately) full of likes of you who do it plenty.
:rolleyes:
Yeah, you know me.
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If the Me 410 is in the game by October (which sounds like it will be the case), it will be in the next scenario "Der Grosse Schlag II" (a late-war 8th AF vs. Luftwaffe fight).
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Please fly one as the Mustangs of the 364th Fighter Group really want to shoot them :aok
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:O :x
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I made a rough graph some times ago, showing shell drop over distance. Axis' are not to scale:
(http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/3122/clipboard01kut.jpg)
German gun data was taken from original documents, I had a hard time finding any numbers for allied guns. I had to compute the .50 cal trajectory, but take that with a grain of salt...
graph porn :O drool
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I made a rough graph some times ago, showing shell drop over distance. Axis' are not to scale:
(http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/3122/clipboard01kut.jpg)
German gun data was taken from original documents, I had a hard time finding any numbers for allied guns. I had to compute the .50 cal trajectory, but take that with a grain of salt...
With this graph if I am correct the Bk5 and Mk103s would be damn well accurate to 1k out with a plane flying straight and level without much adjustment.
Question: where is it posted the gun packages (mk103 for example)
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Whats surprising, according to that graph, the 151/20 isnt much better than the FF or the tater. Its a bit weird couse they "feel" totally different in game.
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The BK5 should not get any AP, and with that the 410 should not be much different than the 110 in that role. A20 will still rule ;)
Well that's a little silly. If you don't get any AP ammo for the BK5, then why fly it against GV's? Does it still possess a significant GV threat without 50mm AP ammo?
Nutz
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Looks nice. A new Ho Lover's delight :aok
:cheers: Oz
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I know. I was supporting his position.
Humm........ Didn't read like it........just sayin'.
Nutz
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Please fly one as the Mustangs of the 364th Fighter Group really want to shoot them :aok
Same with the Mustangs of the 4th FG.
Nutz
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Well that's a little silly. If you don't get any AP ammo for the BK5, then why fly it against GV's?
I have yet to see any reference of 410s being equipped with AP rounds and being used as a tankbuster.
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With this graph if I am correct the Bk5 and Mk103s would be damn well accurate to 1k out with a plane flying straight and level without much adjustment.
Question: where is it posted the gun packages (mk103 for example)
MK 103 had a particular style muzzle brake, you can see them in one of the pics. I wouldn't think they would tease us like that and not cough them up, or would they :noid
:salute
BigRat
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Whats surprising, according to that graph, the 151/20 isnt much better than the FF or the tater. Its a bit weird couse they "feel" totally different in game.
What may distort the perception of the graph by a little is that there are two very different weapon sets in it: One high velocity group (MK 103, 0.50 cal, BK-5) and the rest. If I would take out the HV group and would show only the 'ordinary' guns, the differences between the MG 151/20 and the MG-FF would seem to be somewhat bigger.
But then, according to the data from Erprobungstelle Rechlin, both rounds are't exactly worlds apart.
MG-FFM, 2cm Minen m Zerleger: 695 m/sec muzzle velocity, time to 400m 0.8 seconds
MG 151/20, 2cm Minen m Zerleger: 775 m/sec muzzle velocity, time to 400m 0.7 seconds
(The Mk 103 Minen projectile would take just over 0.5 seconds for the same distance)
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MK 103 had a particular style muzzle brake, you can see them in one of the pics. I wouldn't think they would tease us like that and not cough them up, or would they :noid
:salute
BigRat
ahhh ok I could not see the photos that well, on my cell phone :(
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ahhh ok I could not see the photos that well, on my cell phone :(
They also mention both the Mk103 and BK5 in the header to the screenshots.
We're actually getting three new guns in the next version. I don't think we've seen three new gun models added at the same time since v1.00.
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We're actually getting three new guns in the next version.
And the first plane with a DB603. The Do 217M should follow now :noid
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Well that's a little silly. If you don't get any AP ammo for the BK5, then why fly it against GV's? Does it still possess a significant GV threat without 50mm AP ammo?
Nutz
Why not? I've had quite a bit of success (the few times I actually did it) taking out Panzers, and even T-34's with the Yak 9T's 37mm, which is far weaker than the BK-5. To answer your question, yes, it will pose a solid threat to those who know how to use it.
Makes me curious to how the AT role will play out in terms of guns...
Maybe something like this?
1) Il-2
2) 410 Bk-5
3) 25H
4) 87G (5th?)
5) 2D (4th?)
6) 9T
7) 39
Usage is what I mean.
Since the 410 will probably handle better than the 25H, I am guessing that it will take the 2nd slot despite the 25's 75mm gun. I'm guessing the Bk-5 will have a faster reload and MAYBE more ammo. The 87G and the 2D require a little bit more time for proper setups, as the ammo supply is rather limited but I put the 87G ahead of the 2D due to it having better guns/ammo, even though the 2D will get there and can setup quicker. The Il-2 is in the top spot for obvious reasons. I mean, you can't go wrong with solid armor and large amounts of lead to rain down on gv's. :D The 9T and the 39's are in the list because I have used them against GV's with some success. I will have to admit though, the last time I took a 39 or a 9T up against GV's, it was prior to our current town layout and MAYBE just after... :headscratch: I just may give em a go again, for the spork of it. :D
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And the first plane with a DB603. The Do 217M should follow now :noid
I'd kill to have ANY type of Dornier in Aces High! :x
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Two very exciting airplanes being introduced. Neither is a Soviet Bomber but i aint complaining.
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Why not? I've had quite a bit of success (the few times I actually did it) taking out Panzers, and even T-34's with the Yak 9T's 37mm,
You have any films of the latter one?
I have seen references to that from time to time here and in game, but have never actually seen anyone doing it, much less doing it repeatedly, and utterly failed myself so far. Kill stats for the Yak for 2011 don't show any signifcant number of kills either :headscratch:
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Ive killed mostly Panzers with the Yak 9t. And even them not a whole lot of them. Ive killed a few T-34s too but not many. Unfortunatly like the BK 5 the NS-37 on the Yak was loaded with HE ammo and the plane was used as a more general purpose attacker like the 410 was. I would think the 410 saw very little anti-tank action and it will not be the #2 tank killer in the game. Im betting the 87G takes the #2 spot.
Why not? I've had quite a bit of success (the few times I actually did it) taking out Panzers, and even T-34's with the Yak 9T's 37mm, which is far weaker than the BK-5. To answer your question, yes, it will pose a solid threat to those who know how to use it.
Makes me curious to how the AT role will play out in terms of guns...
Maybe something like this?
1) Il-2
2) 410 Bk-5
3) 25H
4) 87G (5th?)
5) 2D (4th?)
6) 9T
7) 39
Usage is what I mean.
Since the 410 will probably handle better than the 25H, I am guessing that it will take the 2nd slot despite the 25's 75mm gun. I'm guessing the Bk-5 will have a faster reload and MAYBE more ammo. The 87G and the 2D require a little bit more time for proper setups, as the ammo supply is rather limited but I put the 87G ahead of the 2D due to it having better guns/ammo, even though the 2D will get there and can setup quicker. The Il-2 is in the top spot for obvious reasons. I mean, you can't go wrong with solid armor and large amounts of lead to rain down on gv's. :D The 9T and the 39's are in the list because I have used them against GV's with some success. I will have to admit though, the last time I took a 39 or a 9T up against GV's, it was prior to our current town layout and MAYBE just after... :headscratch: I just may give em a go again, for the spork of it. :D
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IIRC the BK5 has 22 rounds so not alot of ammo.
However the Mk103 was capable of using tungsen core AP ammo that should be a threat to most tanks,possible exception the TigerII. It could carry up to 6 bombs in bombbay and is equiped with dive brakes.
The main 20mm guns carried 350 rds each and 250 in the others,up to 6x20mm guns.
Top speed should be about 380/390 range so close to the Mossie IV,otd the Mossie should be about 25 to 35mph faster on wep. Roll rate shouldnt be great,slightly faster than the 110G but not much faster. Oh and the 103's should carry 100 rds each.
:salute
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You have any films of the latter one?
I have seen references to that from time to time here and in game, but have never actually seen anyone doing it, much less doing it repeatedly, and utterly failed myself so far. Kill stats for the Yak for 2011 don't show any signifcant number of kills either :headscratch:
No films... :(
I didn't do it repeatedly. It was more of a, "why the ell not?", type of runs. And the few times I did, I enjoyed a bit of success, but mostly against Panzers. The T-34 is a tricky tank, especially if it's moving. If you get one that's dumb enough to stay still, then it's quite a bit easier, though it will still take quite a few rounds. I think my best run on a T-34 cost me 15 rounds. Usually, I spend almost all of my ammo knocking one out. I find coming in high and behind, putting the rounds just behind their turret does the trick. Terrain dictated when I could take my shot without littering the landscape with my plane. If they are moving, I only took one shot (unless they were moving in a nice, straight line). If they were stationary, then I could take 2.
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Top speed should be about 380/390 range so close to the Mossie IV,otd the Mossie should be about 25 to 35mph faster on wep. Roll rate shouldnt be great,slightly faster than the 110G but not much faster. Oh and the 103's should carry 100 rds each.
:salute
The speed bands are quite different though. If I recall, the Me410 does about 390 at 19,000ft compared to the 384 of the Mossie VI at 13,000ft. On the deck the Me410 should do something between 320 and 345mph. Mossie does 357 clean, P-38L does 345 clean and the Bf110G-2 does 322 clean on the deck.
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You have any films of the latter one?
I have seen references to that from time to time here and in game, but have never actually seen anyone doing it, much less doing it repeatedly, and utterly failed myself so far. Kill stats for the Yak for 2011 don't show any signifcant number of kills either :headscratch:
got a link to your stat pages ?
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got a link to your stat pages ?
I have only a link to HTC stat pages ;)
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I have only a link to HTC stat pages ;)
Your such a spoil sport :lol
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Your such a spoil sport :lol
I can't help it. I have no stats pages :P
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The speed bands are quite different though. If I recall, the Me410 does about 390 at 19,000ft compared to the 384 of the Mossie VI at 13,000ft. On the deck the Me410 should do something between 320 and 345mph. Mossie does 357 clean, P-38L does 345 clean and the Bf110G-2 does 322 clean on the deck.
Ya Karnak,thats about what I have. I think the mossie will be better all around but the 410 should have the edge in firepower. Just the 2x20mm guns have 700 rds,equal to overload on mossie but the firing time should be twice as long! Should be interesting if a few players really learn to use her,much like the mossie,those select few make her a dangerous bird! Batty comes to mind!
:salute
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Ya Karnak,thats about what I have. I think the mossie will be better all around but the 410 should have the edge in firepower. Just the 2x20mm guns have 700 rds,equal to overload on mossie but the firing time should be twice as long! Should be interesting if a few players really learn to use her,much like the mossie,those select few make her a dangerous bird! Batty comes to mind!
:salute
Its firepower is a lot better and its bomb load should be very much better. I see the Me410 getting a lot more lot more use because of its likely superiority over the Mossie as an attack aircraft.
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In the upcoming scenario, I hope to see some of this:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/Me_410_Hornisse_with_BK_5.jpg)
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it's not 1 410 you should worry about in MA, it's 2 410s winging up that'll clear a furball post haste
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WTG SUperfly and Cactus! :salute
Awesome 3D model :aok :aok :aok
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Sweet baby Jesus......I WANT IT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..... :x
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I imagine we will be getting both in one single release.
...in two weeks
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In the upcoming scenario, I hope to see some of this:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/Me_410_Hornisse_with_BK_5.jpg)
You hope to see a 50mm hole in the R wing of your B-17???
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Something else for the 91st to shred through the meat grinder. ;)
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Its firepower is a lot better and its bomb load should be very much better. I see the Me410 getting a lot more lot more use because of its likely superiority over the Mossie as an attack aircraft.
One thing why I don't think Me410 will make a better field suppression aircraft than either the 110G or Mosquito is the lack of payload in bombs. I'm almost certain that as far as big bombs go it'll carry only 2x250kg while 110 carries 2x500 and Mossie has 4x500lbs. Don't know about others but personally I find the 50kgs rather useless for my purposes. Of course the 6x20mm setup of the 410 has quite a bit of "strafing lbs" in it but dropping bombs on the house clusters in the city kills a lot of buildings...
We'll see...
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However the Mk103 was capable of using tungsen core AP ammo that should be a threat to most tanks,possible exception the TigerII. It could carry up to 6 bombs in bombbay and is equiped with dive brakes.
The main 20mm guns carried 350 rds each and 250 in the others,up to 6x20mm guns.
The Mk103 with armor piercing rounds were on 110Cs or Hs129s, though. Dedicated anti-tank platforms. The Mk103s in the 410s were purely for use against aircraft. I wouldn't expect any special AP rounds, though I suspect the round we get would be somewhat useful against tanks as it is.
But, you're a little short on your count. It carried 8x bombs internally, plus 4 extra on external racks. Total 12x 50kg for a single sortie. Or 2 larger bombs (250kg, 500kg) because they took up most of the room in the bomb bay. And... If HTC is generous... we'll get the 2x20mm external gunpod, allowing a dragged-down and heavy plane with 8x20mm cannons.
One thing why I don't think Me410 will make a better field suppression aircraft than either the 110G or Mosquito is the lack of payload in bombs. I'm almost certain that as far as big bombs go it'll carry only 2x250kg while 110 carries 2x500 and Mossie has 4x500lbs. Don't know about others but personally I find the 50kgs rather useless for my purposes. Of course the 6x20mm setup of the 410 has quite a bit of "strafing lbs" in it but dropping bombs on the house clusters in the city kills a lot of buildings...
We'll see...
The 410 ought to have 500kg options, but naturally we'll have to wait and see. Even so, I think the 12x 50kg loadout will put it ahead of the 110G/Mossie because on top of that you can also carry the WGRs. Historically this wasn't an issue, but from the way I've seen people fly these planes in AH they will fire a rocket to de-ack. Also, 50kg can be used to de-ack rather well. You come in at 10k, dive, drop 1, and pull back up. Repeat until you are out of bombs. You only have to get close and the blast wave takes out the gun. Then you still have 4x WGRs for more runs lower down. That means you have 16 tries to kill ack guns without putting yourself in point-blank range to do it. Then on top of all that you can strafe what you like with the large ammo load.
I think because of the way we use planes in the LWAs it will probably edge out the 110G for general raids, and leave the Mossie to faster lighter strikes. That seems to be what they're used for now.
That's just a hunch, though.
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The 410 ought to have 500kg options, but naturally we'll have to wait and see.
The only reference I've seen on the use of 500-series bombs was the fact that only SD500's (anti personel/soft targets) could fit to the bomb bay with the doors closed. With the normal SC500's (general purpose) that are modelled in AH the bomb doors were left partly open. This was with the A-1 variant which was used as a high speed bomber. General Der Kampfflieger, Oberst Pelz wanted to replace these 410's with Ju-88s partly because of the warload limitation and insufficient range.
Source: Mushroom publication's 410 -book.
This was early in 410s service life and as such considering the nature of the setup I doubt it'll be implemented.
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Mushroom simply says no 500kg other than SD500 could fit and have the doors close all the way, and that while Ju88s were wanted, couldn't be made in time so the 410 continued in the Baby Blitz role. Here's a small scan of the blurb is has:
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/410refs/410_schnell.jpg)
About the SD500:
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/sd500.htm
(http://warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/sd500-1.jpg)
The SD500 is still a perfectly valid bomb. Just fine for Aces High needs -- we don't need armor piercing bombs. In fact I don't think any german bombs in this game are that specific anyway. I don't think Aces High models penetration of ground structures like that at all, and simply goes by a "this many lbs kills me" setup.
The SD500 was probably far more common than the 1000lb bomb setup on P-51s and P-47s. Probably more common than you'd find 500kg bombs on the 110. That's my reasoning why it's not so far fetched.
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Mushroom simply says no 500kg other than SD500 could fit and have the doors close all the way, and that while Ju88s were wanted, couldn't be made in time so the 410 continued in the Baby Blitz role. Here's a small scan of the blurb is has:
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/410refs/410_schnell.jpg)
About the SD500:
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/sd500.htm
(http://warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/sd500-1.jpg)
The SD500 is still a perfectly valid bomb. Just fine for Aces High needs -- we don't need armor piercing bombs. In fact I don't think any german bombs in this game are that specific anyway. I don't think Aces High models penetration of ground structures like that at all, and simply goes by a "this many lbs kills me" setup.
The SD500 was probably far more common than the 1000lb bomb setup on P-51s and P-47s. Probably more common than you'd find 500kg bombs on the 110. That's my reasoning why it's not so far fetched.
Yeh, that's the quote. I managed to mix SD and AB series in my mind probably due to the fact that AB250 carries SD-2 bomblets inside. That's why I called SD500 anti personel bomb. Yeh, lbs is lbs as far as AH is concerned regardless weather it is SC or SD. The shape of the German 500kg bomb matches the SC500 but that should be a 5min fix for Superfly. Then it's a matter of being on A-variant instead of B the seems to be coming based on the default skin but that shouldn't be a big issue considering the rather minor differences between the two.
Anyways, back to my original point. 110G is more maneuverable and can carry both big cannons and big bombs at the same time. The possible ventral 2x20mm condola of the Me410 makes the gap a bit smaller in this respect.
I will happily fly both.
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Bustr,
I think your post should say B"iiiiiii"g Guns. If trying to emphasize a sustained BIG.
Bi"gggggggg" is so hard to say. No one would hold the G sound.
thanks,
Vinkman
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(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/68zoom/cb28538ffaaf72a7b8af79e071be82c6.gif)
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wHERE IS MY 210? I WANT MY 210!!!!!! :furious :furious :furious
(http://)(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x39/PanosGR/210A.jpg)
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wHERE IS MY 210? I WANT MY 210!!!!!! :furious :furious :furious
(http://)(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x39/PanosGR/210A.jpg)
Fly a 110 with one engine on half throttle and the other on full power. Instability = Me-210.
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Instability means maneuverability. All 3rd and 4rth gen fighters they are built in with inherent instability or relaxed static stability if you like.
But :headscratch: on the other hand they have FBW for that
Seriously now I know about 210 instability problems but only when weapons bay was open.
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210 was also underpowered, means that you'll stall rather easily and it's instability does not help with recovering from a stall.
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Instability means maneuverability. All 3rd and 4rth gen fighters they are built in with inherent instability or relaxed static stability if you like.
But :headscratch: on the other hand they have FBW for that
Fly by wire eliminates the pilot having to deal with said instability. Wrangling the 210 would certaintly be a task.
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Instability means maneuverability. All 3rd and 4rth gen fighters they are built in with inherent instability or relaxed static stability if you like.
But :headscratch: on the other hand they have FBW for that
Seriously now I know about 210 instability problems but only when weapons bay was open.
Keep Fat Bottomed Women out of this. :P
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Fat Bottomed Women :rofl never thought about that Shuffler
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but they make the rockin' world go round!!! Please don't dismiss them entirely :pray
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210 wasn't quite the death trap it's made out to be. It's not as "good" as the 110G but it has one thing the 110G doesn't: it was already being flight tested at the end of 1940.
While the engineers fought a bickering battle, actual combat pilots wanted it because it was better than the 110C/Ds it was replacing. It also wasn't too hard to handle for the experienced pilots at the time. Even so, the changes made that rectified the problems were mostly in place early on anyways. The tail was lenghtened and other changes were made by either the 200th or 300th airframe. The majority of 210s weren't as bad as the initial test flight on the first airframe, they just held the political stigma of all the bickering that was associated with it.
From an early war standpoint, the 210 would be awesome, handling issues and all. Much like the typh or tempest, the pros outweigh the cons.
I'd hope they add it as well, but won't hold my breath.
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The early 210s were somewhat unstable in the horizontal axis. I.e. the nose tended to bounce a lot and in level flight it would oscillate slightly up/down rather than fly straight. The bomb bay doors also seriously disrupted airflow and caused problems in flight. Altogether noting really critical, but not the mark of a great plane.
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Very nice work Superfly and CactusKooler, another fine addition.
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Krusty,
I dont think the 110c's carried Mk103's they did carry the Mk101 which is basically a heavier nonelectrically fired Mk103. Whether the 410 carried the AP rounds I cant say for sure,I searched that back when Moot was posting all the imfo on the 410 and only saw it listed as available for the weapon,this is why I said it was cappable of using AP rounds.
I have no idea if HTC modeled those rounds or not.
:salute
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The BK5 will make it the B25H with the manuverability you wish it had, with aproximently the gun.
The more salient question is the two MK103. The same projectile and power of the K4 but at 860m\sec versus 500m\sec. You now have the equivalent balistics of the Mossi6's hissos but, each projectile has the HE power of the Stielhandgranate 24 stick grenade. Your accuracy is in the NS-37 realm x2. Kind of like a flying 2 gun manuverable Ostwind with Hail Mary power out to 800 or 1000 against runners with a good gunsight.
Thats a bit of mischief if you plan it right in missions, or know your way around flying 110 light in furballs, or want something really irritating to HO with as part of a hoard of newbies. It might make CHog status for all the rest of those average type players against each other. It's not what happens after the shine wares off on a new toy. It's the new toy WoW energy put into trying it out before the blush wears off. That's going to be alot of WoW every time one or both of those 860m\sec M-Geschoss ruins someones best evasive manuvering or running by accident.
Might keep average players HOing longer than you think before the hanger gets it's new queen.
I for one am WAY more excited about the Mk103s over the BK5. It's like the HispanoII and Mk108 got together and had a baby.
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I for one am WAY more excited about the Mk103s over the BK5. It's like the HispanoII and Mk108 got together and had a baby.
:aok :rock
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no need to perk...this planes a "bully"...if the model is correct...an I'm certain it is or will be...it's absolutely no match for Spits and Ponies...sure it'll rip thru the bomber formations...hence "bully"... :airplane:
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The 110G with the small gun package rips through bomber formations as it is. The 410 seems like overkill. I guess it really needs to be when 99% of buff attackers try to draft behind the tailguns. :lol
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K4- Speed/acceleration
La-7 - Speed/Acceleration
P51- Speed/Ords
190D- Speed/Acceleration
Tempest -Speed/Acceleration
F4U4 - Everything
F4U1C - Firepower
Spit14 - Climb rate (the highest besides 163 IIRC)
With the 410, it would have the firepower that makes it eligible to be perked.
IIRC, the 30mm Mk 103 410 will have less forward firepower than the Bf-110. Really, the only perkable part about it is the 50mm BK-5.
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Me-410s firepower won't get it perked, one fighter around it is enough to beat it 1vs1, unless someone decides to be in an I-16.
Look at the list of perkable choices, if anything the Me-410 sits between 5/10 eny.
If were going to perk the Me-410 due to firepower, then there are a dozen other aircrafts to consider perking like the Fw-190a8.
Yeah it makes no sense, so leave it alone.
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If were going to perk the Me-410 due to firepower, then there are a dozen other aircrafts to consider perking like the Fw-190a8.
Yeah it makes no sense, so leave it alone.
I agree, it's forward fire power in no way unbalances the game play which would require it being perked.
ack-ack
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What size "tail" guns are those?
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What size "tail" guns are those?
13mm
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13mm
Thank you sir. :cheers: :salute
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Think "weight." Of cannon iron and bullets.
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I am quite shocked that people think this thing should be perked.
As it stands any 30 or 37mm hit will blow your fighter out of the air - so should we perk the 39 or the yakT? No. It is quite absurd that this discussion on the celebration of the 410 has turned into an 11 page cry fest over how imba overpowered it is. And then to drag this into a huge discussion over how perks are done.
The 410 may be a bit faster and climb a bit better then a 110, but it will still be an easy target for a dedicated single seat fighter with the same risks you face against a 110 today. it will enjoy a period of newness popularity and when that pass' we will see it employed against bombers and GVs. Lets see what it does before we start calling for it to be perked.
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What would you guys do if the 262 had 2 MK103 firing the tater with the same trajectory at 860m\sec as the Hispano? Wasen't there a variant with 2-MK103 and 2-MG151\15?
This might be a good platform to introduce perked loadouts. Not perked aircraft.
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I am quite shocked that people think this thing should be perked.
Ditto... It's probably, for all intents and purposes, going to be a freaking brick with wings. Not sure why a select few are freaking out about it. Maybe they're the ones who only know how to HO and are now afraid they have to learn NOT to?
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Ditto... It's probably, for all intents and purposes, going to be a freaking brick with wings. Not sure why a select few are freaking out about it. Maybe they're the ones who only know how to HO and are now afraid they have to learn NOT to?
:lol
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One thing about the Me410 is that the cockpit glass extends way down the nose. That, coupled with the firepower should make it the best deflection shooter in the game. That glass will make my favourite "turn below their nose" anti-HO maneuver a bit riskier too.
However it is a one trick pony on the whole, if it misses that shot there is not much it can do but run. There are plenty of faster planes to be found in the MA that can run it down too. It will be a good plane to be in a horde with but not a good one to be fighting a horde with.
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:x
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By the screenshots it looks like were getting 4 variants. Can anyone give the specific loadouts for each?
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I am quite shocked that people think this thing should be perked.
Within a day of the original Mosquito Mk VI being added back in 2001 there were people posting that it needed to be perked.
There seems to be a number of people, not the same people as I doubt many of the 2001 group are still around, who react to anything new that isn't completely outclassed by saying it should be perked.
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I'm curious how one will set convergence in the 410.
In the 110g, the mg151/20 has the same trajectory as the mk108.
The mk103 and the 20mms will take a little more thinking.
I think the 6x mg151/20 loadout would be awesome.
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8x mg151/20 if we also get the gondola... :t
(http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz63/krustacious/Me410%20scans/me410_gunpod1.jpg)
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Twin engined version of the Jug?
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More like a German version of the Invader with eight guns in the nose... only bigger guns... much bigger! :cheers:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Douglas_A-26_%2800910460_179%29.jpg)
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I'm curious how one will set convergence in the 410.
In the 110g, the mg151/20 has the same trajectory as the mk108.
That's just not true. The Mk108s have their own trajectory and balistics. They drop a LOT faster and scatter in a cone of dispersion much wider than the 20mm rounds.
As for the convergence, I believe it's "fixed" horizontally -- much like the P-38s guns -- but that you will be able to adjust for drop so that you still hit your gunsight's crosshairs at the proper distance. That is how other planes in this game work and I see no reason the 410 would be different.
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One thing about the Me410 is that the cockpit glass extends way down the nose. That, coupled with the firepower should make it the best deflection shooter in the game. That glass will make my favourite "turn below their nose" anti-HO maneuver a bit riskier too.
Actually, I noticed that... but only after I already reported several shape errors on the current screenshots. I didn't want to seem like I was pestering/nitpicking, so I didn't comment about it. I also can't fully see that area on the one screenshot that shows that gun loadout because of the muzzle flashes. Maybe they already did this?
On the standard plane you get that clear panel. On 2-guns-in-bomb-bay setups you still can see it. However for the 4-gun setups they almost always covered it with a metal panel because the massive amounts of flash distracted and/or blinded the pilot slightly.
Seen as such:
(http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/aviation/3144d1299758156t-best-single-air-air-weapon-war-me410-b2-47_103.jpg)
You see some BK5s with it, and some without. Same for the Mk103 setup. However the 4x20mm setup in the bomb bay is almost always seen with the panel in place. [edit: Let's make that in the handful of photos that show this setup, ALL have the panel in place -- there may have been some without it, but all the photo evidence shows it installed.] We know HTC can do that becuase they've done something similar on the B-25c. It would not totally ruin the forward visibility, just some of the downward angle. Still, it would be a nice touch to see.
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Krusty,
Don't scare them yet with the facts. The MK108 and MK103 round suffers the same dispersion and right hand wind drift but at different rates. Why? Becasue it's the exact same round traveling at two different initial velocities with the same twist rate. The MK103 carries relatively flat 300m farther than the MK108 before it slows down enough to mirror the MK108's drop from 250m and beyond.
I was wondering about the the nose panels also and which versions blanked them. I think it was armor plate to protect the pilot.
Hey can we get crew cheifs like the on in the picture?
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It wasn't armor plate, it was just a cover panel. The protection would be built into the part that the panel covered (i.e. the clear panel was bullet resistant).
The 103 and 108 may have had a similar projectile size, but they were nothing alike. Not in ballistics, not in trajectory, not in accuracy. The barrel on the 103 was very short, and on any gun shorter barrels mean less accuracy. Just look at snub-nose revolvers as compared to 4", or 6" revolvers. The slower travel time also means the round has more time to drift. Since the 103 gets to the target that much faster, its got less chance of being a mile off like the 108 in-game is.
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More like a German version of the Invader with eight guns in the nose... only bigger guns... much bigger! :cheers:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Douglas_A-26_%2800910460_179%29.jpg)
Some similarities but I'd say the A-26 was much more designed as a bomber/attacker. It was much heavier and carried a much bigger ordinance load. I know there were night fighter variants but at the time it finnaly hit the runways was the nightfighter variant really needed? Actually none of the variants were really needed cause the Allies had such air supremacy by then.
I'd call the 410 as a more "jack of all trades". It should be an interesting addition to the game. :salute
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Yes the A-26 was an Attacker, and I've drooled over it at airshows since childhood. :)
Krusty, the length of the barrel does not directly affect accuracy. A short barrel is usually more accurate than a long barrel. As long as the muzzle velocity is the same a short barrel would be preferable. Long barrels suffer from harmonics as vibrational impulses from the cartridge blast are transmitted to the barrel in various magnitudes. A shorter barrel of the same diameter will also have less amplitude to its arc of movement (if any). A few years back Tony Williams described the MK 108 as one of the most accurate WWII aero-guns.
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Yes the A-26 was an Attacker, and I've drooled over it at airshows since childhood. :)
Krusty, the length of the barrel does not directly affect accuracy. A short barrel is usually more accurate than a long barrel. As long as the muzzle velocity is the same a short barrel would be preferable. Long barrels suffer from harmonics as vibrational impulses from the cartridge blast are transmitted to the barrel in various magnitudes. A shorter barrel of the same diameter will also have less amplitude to its arc of movement (if any). A few years back Tony Williams described the MK 108 as one of the most accurate WWII aero-guns.
I can relate to the issues of having a long barrel. :D
At times the harmonics cause it to emit a humming sound.
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Who's doing the humming? ;) :D
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Harmonics: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6BpI3xD6h0
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Krusty I've already looked at the Rechlin testing results.
It duplicats the dispersion of the MK108 500m\sec round from 200m on starting at 500m. The longer barrel and higher IntV only delays the time the round stays above 700m\sec with a smaller random dispersion cone and right hand spin drift factor. Auto Cannon rounds 20mm and up below 700m\sec begin dropping like rocks and loose the ability to stay stable in the face of air friction.
The dispersion cone though becomes the same as the MK108's of 200m at 500m. 7feet diameter.
If HTC instead models the Type N round which has a superior tapered ballistic ogive and slightly less explosive content due to the more tapered shape. Then the round fired from the MK103 should shoot flatter with much less dispersion to 700m. But, if he is modeling the most used and common Type I which was simpler to produce with the conical ogive and poor ballistic coeificent. When the vLoss passes out of 700m\s the dispersion will make it about as crappy as the MK108 for shooting at anything but bombers past 400m.
The only ballistic information I've ever found on the Type N round is it may have increased the IntV in the MK108 to 510m\sec. Additionaly there was discussion that this caused timing issues and jams so the MK108 was kept to the Type I ammo 500m\sec. Wonder if that was some of the teething issues with the Bf109-G6\U4 Mk108 gun jams and battery misfire issues?
Anyway at MA furballing distances twin MK103 will possibly be destabalising in their destructive capabilities.
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"Destabalising" ? :huh
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HOing, runway picking, hanger vulching, 600 yard parting shots against porr defencless runners. Willy didn't realise he was designing the ultimate CAP'd airfeild terror plane for the average Aces High player in a hoard 70 years ago.
Who knows? Maybe introducing the 410 will spur a renaissance in mission planning that isn't a gazzilion ponies rocket vulching after dropping everything on the field. But, that could also be the long distances between fields these days and the amount of time players want to spend in transit versus their personal tollerance for getting stuck low in a fight. Possibly dieing 60 seconds after getting there knowing how long it will take to get back at the fun. So staying higher on the return trip and looking only for easy picks to save them the loss of fun and another transit time debt.
Almost seems like we spend most of our time now days getting to a fight. I know we have unlimited lives but, those transit times kind of colors fights with a sense of limited lives versus amount of fun at any given time. The center island on OZKANSAS has excellent transit times to fight in the center of 1/2 sector from all 3 airfeilds. While the airfeilds are at 1 sector from each other. Or do we need the transit times to fool ourselves with the sense of false purpose that most of this game is mindless furballs?
Maybe this is the plane that will get some of the newer pony "save my kester with speed alt monkies" looking into a different style of fighting. After all "It Got Gigggg Guns".
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I saw the shell drop chart on another thread but can't find it.
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Actually, I noticed that... but only after I already reported several shape errors on the current screenshots. I didn't want to seem like I was pestering/nitpicking, so I didn't comment about it. I also can't fully see that area on the one screenshot that shows that gun loadout because of the muzzle flashes. Maybe they already did this?
On the standard plane you get that clear panel. On 2-guns-in-bomb-bay setups you still can see it. However for the 4-gun setups they almost always covered it with a metal panel because the massive amounts of flash distracted and/or blinded the pilot slightly.
I does not appear that this plate is in place on the AH model. The lower glass is mostly obscured by the muzzle flash in this pic:
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/stories/news/me410/me410-6.jpg)
But you can see the dark area of the cockpit interior through the glass. Looks the same as the front on the BK5 screenie:
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/stories/news/me410/me410-1.jpg)
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What, you guys don't live with pocket copies in your trousers of:
Handbuch der Flugzeug
Boardwaffenmunition
1936 - 1945
Or the 410 armerors handbook for the 2 - MK103 and BK5 versions?
Did you know the 2 - MK103 were set parallel with no horizintal convergence to an IP point with the Revi line of sight at 800m? The higest point in the trajectory above the Revi LoS was 3 ft at 500m. Wonder if we are getting the 2 - MG131 and 2 - MG151\15 forward firing version?
The BK 5 with 2 - MG151\20 was set for 900m with the highest point above Revi LoS of 4 feet at 580m.
The BK 5 with 2- MG131 and 2 - MG151\15 was set for 800m with the highest point above Revi LoS of 2 feet at 600m.
In all of the above versions of the 410 all forward firing guns in pairs are set parallel with no horizontal convergence point. In both the MG 131 and MG151\15 are both locked to (500m MG131) and (700m MG151\15). That definitly gives you some funky trajectories. Wonder if the 13mm and 15mm will be loaded with an AP-HE cluge? The MG151\20 had it's own scaled down version of the MK103's round with 18.6 grams of the same explosive. About 1\4 of a standard stick grenade.
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Homely plane but a nice skin.
Everyones says it's UUUUgly...? I think it's a good looking plane, & pilot visibility! WOW! Look at all that glass... :x :banana:
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The 410 was a new class of a/c known as the interceptor...purely built to shoot down buffs...worthless in a dogfight. They'd avoid dogfights altogether in "real life"...anyone who was in the Navy when the F-14 was a front line unit (like me) can relate...F-14 was huge...designed to carry the Phoenix missile...a lot of the "Top Gun" movie was "Hollywood". Now...all that being typed...I would fully expect to see it vulching and dogfighting in MA... :neener:
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The 410 was a new class of a/c known as the interceptor...purely built to shoot down buffs...worthless in a dogfight. They'd avoid dogfights altogether in "real life"...
Every thing you just typed needs to be ignored by everyone else on this forum.
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Every thing you just typed needs to be ignored by everyone else on this forum.
I actually agree with you Krusty...... :noid Hopefully Mace wont see his post lest he tears him a new one.. :D
Bustr, the MG151/15 guns did not see service in the 410's,it's referenced to in the early A models and in the 210's but I'm positive it was never used on the 410. Going off memory here so it's possible to prove me wrong.... :o IIRC the MG151/15 had a very good muzzleV,higher than the Mk103,not quite as high as BK5.
:salute
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I will be gone for 8 days starting monday, so I bet the 410 will come out on Monday.
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OK morf I'll burn my 1944 Me410 manuals.
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I will be gone for 8 days starting monday, so I bet the 410 will come out on Monday.
No silly updates come out on Wednesdays! :o
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Oh lighten up a tad, Bustr :)
He's right. The 15mm were never used. Sometimes pilot handbooks cover new weapons that never make it (they are printed in anticipation) or test weapons that were long phased out, or even just possible weapons that were never carried. I'm sure some P-40 handbooks make reference to inboard 20mm setups -- because they came from the factory capable of carrying them and the mountings were part of the hardware.
Just chalk it up to one of those quirk references that never really made it into practice, is all. :aok
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Common. it was my first one liner in a longggg time.
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Well if it makes ya feel better, by the power vested in me by Thor, the Easter Bunny, and Kate Beckinsale, I hereby award you a "do-over" on your one liner. :salute
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Krusty,
It was an inside joke between Bustr and myself,he only offered to burn it because he knows I cant read it. :devil
It's a shame though,I'd like to see 1 LW plane with the MG151/15mm guns from what I've read it was a flat shooting gun but it's explosive charge left some to be desired.
:salute
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Krusty,
It was an inside joke between Bustr and myself,he only offered to burn it because he knows I cant read it. :devil
It's a shame though,I'd like to see 1 LW plane with the MG151/15mm guns from what I've read it was a flat shooting gun but it's explosive charge left some to be desired.
:salute
109F-2 had it
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Ah, thanks. I didn't know/get that. Never mind :aok
P.S. The 15mm was found to be too weak to really be effective, not being much more powerful than the 13mm MG131, and the even with the better trajectory, it wasn't lethal enough.
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Krusty I've already looked at the Rechlin testing results.
It duplicats the dispersion of the MK108 500m\sec round from 200m on starting at 500m. The longer barrel and higher IntV only delays the time the round stays above 700m\sec with a smaller random dispersion cone and right hand spin drift factor. Auto Cannon rounds 20mm and up below 700m\sec begin dropping like rocks and loose the ability to stay stable in the face of air friction.
The dispersion cone though becomes the same as the MK108's of 200m at 500m. 7feet diameter.
If HTC instead models the Type N round which has a superior tapered ballistic ogive and slightly less explosive content due to the more tapered shape. Then the round fired from the MK103 should shoot flatter with much less dispersion to 700m. But, if he is modeling the most used and common Type I which was simpler to produce with the conical ogive and poor ballistic coeificent. When the vLoss passes out of 700m\s the dispersion will make it about as crappy as the MK108 for shooting at anything but bombers past 400m.
The only ballistic information I've ever found on the Type N round is it may have increased the IntV in the MK108 to 510m\sec. Additionaly there was discussion that this caused timing issues and jams so the MK108 was kept to the Type I ammo 500m\sec. Wonder if that was some of the teething issues with the Bf109-G6\U4 Mk108 gun jams and battery misfire issues?
Anyway at MA furballing distances twin MK103 will possibly be destabalising in their destructive capabilities.
Bustr. THat's huge difference. Flat trajectory out to 500M? I never shoot out side of 500M. Am I missing something? Why are you making the case that it's not much of a difference. :salute
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The 410 was a new class of a/c known as the interceptor...purely built to shoot down buffs...worthless in a dogfight. They'd avoid dogfights altogether in "real life"...anyone who was in the Navy when the F-14 was a front line unit (like me) can relate...F-14 was huge...designed to carry the Phoenix missile...a lot of the "Top Gun" movie was "Hollywood". Now...all that being typed...I would fully expect to see it vulching and dogfighting in MA... :neener:
Also once 51s, 47s, and 38s showed up with buffs the 410s were pulled.
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Believe me, the extra distance you get out of the mk103 makes a difference in the arena.
You can lob them out a bit further.
These guns might be new here but some other sims have been modeling and adjusting the modeling since 2001.
I predict that fun will be had with the 410 but that the huge weight of fire you get from the 110g with gondolas will still see plenty of usage.
It's a good addition and will spell doom for many a milkrunner who's b17 still climbs at 400fpm while doing 316mph at 32,800 feet.
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I wonder if we'll get the gondola for the 410?
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I think we might. Question is, what weapons options will they allow? Will it be a separate thing you can mix and match, or will it be "tied" to a single gun option like the 110G's?
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Looking at pictures of the gondola, it seems that the gun barrels would interfere with any ord dropped from the bomb bay. If that's indeed true, then the gondola should be tied to a particular gun package.
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The bomb bay is open on this one. You see the doors partially retract into the fuselage.
(http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz63/krustacious/Me410%20scans/me410_gunpod1.jpg)
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Tying the pod to gun packs would be ok too though.
Clean
Clean+pod
20mm
20mm+pod
30mm
30mm+pod
50mm
50mm+pod
bombs
bombs+pod
etc.
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Bustr. THat's huge difference. Flat trajectory out to 500M? I never shoot out side of 500M. Am I missing something? Why are you making the case that it's not much of a difference. :salute
Not the trajectory. The random dispersion cone. With the Mk108 most players have problems 200 - 300 yards becasue of the random dispersion. Not the ballistic drop. If all of your MK108 rounds shot the exact same trjectory with the same ballistic drop you would simply put a mark on your gunsight and learn the lead timing for 200 - 300 yards. At 200 yards your drop is about 3 feet and dispersion cone 14 feet. We get to finess that by tilting the barrel up through the engine block in the K4 to flatten out the dispersion and drop cone to about 400 yards. Point and click Gamey as heck. Set your K4 MK108 to 350. See how flat it shoots offline to 400 yards. Remember inside of 200 yards to begine thinking about aiming low. In real life it droped out the tip of the spinner like a lead balloon.
Check this thread for what I'm talking about with the 350yd convergance in the K4:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,332659.90.html
At 500m or close to 600 yards the MK103 dispersion begins to open up because the velocity has dropped well below 700m\sec . Granted, a pair of MK103 will place some number of random rounds all over the place in 2x14 ft at 380 rounds per minute. The MK108 fires at about 2x that at 600-650 rpm. With runners you begin to have accuracy problems around 600 yards. Unless you are standing off and shooting at a bomber. Then your dispersion is an advantage in getting rounds around the airframe to damage many things.
Don't worry Hitech will probably apply our cartoon world convergence application to the 410 allowing you to dial the MK103 down to lazers at 400 yards using Horizontal and vertical convergence sweet spots. In the real 410, all ganged or paired forward guns were locked parallel and the horizontal convergence was locked for set points at 500, 700, 800 and 900 meters depending on the caliber of the MG or cannon. Just like all HUB mounted cannon were locked into the level line of the engine and it's airscrew shaft.
MK103 at 500m dispersion 14ft - drop 6.6ft.
MK103 at 900m dispersion 29ft - drop 25ft <----kind of the problem you have hitting anything past 1000yds with a 37mm gun.
MK108 at 400m dispersion 30ft - drop 12ft
MA furball distances.
MK103 at 200m dispersion 4ft - drop 1ft.
MK103 at 300m dispersion 7.5ft - drop 2ft
MK108 at 200m dispersion 14ft - drop 2.7ft
Too bad many players in this game ignor the math and science Hitech and Pyro have to learn to create this matrix. It's all kentuky windage and piu, piu, piu to most.
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Do not HO!
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This is a Samual Colt manuverer's Holy Grail. Escpecialy that version with the 20mm in the nose.
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Tying the pod to gun packs would be ok too though.
Clean
Clean+pod
20mm
20mm+pod
30mm
30mm+pod
50mm
50mm+pod
bombs
bombs+pod
etc.
It won't be like that... There are only so many slots in the hangar. If they tie it to specific loads, I feel it would only be one or two loadouts that have it. If they allow mix and match I don't really know how they'd situate the hangar. A long time back I tried to plot out how best to load the hangar with as many options as possible. I came up with a mix and match system that allowed the gunpod as optional, but if HTC does the same? Nobody but HTC knows for sure.
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I dont think it should have the option for 8x20mm guns! There should be 2 options for 6x20 one of those being the gondola but there was a 1 of special permission required 8 gun version and only Rudi Dassow flew this plane. He disliked the BK5 so much that he requested permission to outfit his plane.
:salute
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Common. it was my first one liner in a longggg time.
If it makes you feel better Grandpa, I noticed. :aok
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I can see it now, NoSkillDweeb in a 51D, secure in the knowledge that History Teaches Us The 410 Was A Dog, comes in helter-skelter, trying to get there first, spraying and praying. OldVet in a 410 sidesteps, and as NoSkillDweeb turns hard to come back in for the next spray, OldVet clicks the 103s.
Back in the tower, NoSkillDweeb jumps on 200 to whine about how History Teaches Us The 410 Was A Dog.
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The bomb bay is open on this one. You see the doors partially retract into the fuselage.
(http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz63/krustacious/Me410%20scans/me410_gunpod1.jpg)
I didnt say the guns interfered with the doors, I said the guns would interfere with the bombs falling from the bay.
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If there are more then the normal options for the Me-410, simply use the Centerline/Left/Right wing option for extra ords when in fact they are centerline.
How hard is it to figure out?
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Butcher, there are so many possible options that even doing that there's not enough room in the hangar! It was QUITE the versatile platform. Not saying it was effective in all setups, but they sure did build it with flexibility.
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I dont think it should have the option for 8x20mm guns! There should be 2 options for 6x20 one of those being the gondola but there was a 1 of special permission required 8 gun version and only Rudi Dassow flew this plane. He disliked the BK5 so much that he requested permission to outfit his plane.
I've read it was so effective that they began producing it as a kit as well. That is why his setup has the "bulge" underneath -- this is the panel normally associated with the BK5. I still wonder if the real 4x20mm installation was smooth or not.
There is some debate as to whether the 8x setup meant 8x20mm (using a gondola) or is a misunderstanding of 8xGUNS total (counting the 2x MG131). However, I did a profile comparison of the gondola placement superimposed over the 4x installation, and it doesn't seem like it's in the way much.
It's the same with the 110G. You never carried the gondolas with the wing bombs. You never carried 30mms with the gondolas. The gondolas were there after the 4x7mm were removed to bolster forward firepower, but weren't used once the mk108s were installed. Yet we still have it. The loadout by itself is historically proper, but how we mix and match them is up to us (and HTC has explained they won't limit our mixing of historical loadouts as per discussions with the P51 rkts/bombs issue).
Thus it stands to reason if HTC does add it, you could very well make an 8x20mm setup, in-game. Whether the loadouts allow this is more a matter of their personal choice, rather than them intentionally limiting us, I think. Depends on if they have to cut back on loadouts or are just doing some of the basic options or what.
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Not the trajectory. The random dispersion cone. With the Mk108 most players have problems 200 - 300 yards becasue of the random dispersion. Not the ballistic drop. If all of your MK108 rounds shot the exact same trjectory with the same ballistic drop you would simply put a mark on your gunsight and learn the lead timing for 200 - 300 yards. At 200 yards your drop is about 3 feet and dispersion cone 14 feet. We get to finess that by tilting the barrel up through the engine block in the K4 to flatten out the dispersion and drop cone to about 400 yards. Point and click Gamey as heck. Set your K4 MK108 to 350. See how flat it shoots offline to 400 yards. Remember inside of 200 yards to begine thinking about aiming low. In real life it droped out the tip of the spinner like a lead balloon.
Check this thread for what I'm talking about with the 350yd convergance in the K4:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,332659.90.html
At 500m or close to 600 yards the MK103 dispersion begins to open up because the velocity has dropped well below 700m\sec . Granted, a pair of MK103 will place some number of random rounds all over the place in 2x14 ft at 380 rounds per minute. The MK108 fires at about 2x that at 600-650 rpm. With runners you begin to have accuracy problems around 600 yards. Unless you are standing off and shooting at a bomber. Then your dispersion is an advantage in getting rounds around the airframe to damage many things.
Don't worry Hitech will probably apply our cartoon world convergence application to the 410 allowing you to dial the MK103 down to lazers at 400 yards using Horizontal and vertical convergence sweet spots. In the real 410, all ganged or paired forward guns were locked parallel and the horizontal convergence was locked for set points at 500, 700, 800 and 900 meters depending on the caliber of the MG or cannon. Just like all HUB mounted cannon were locked into the level line of the engine and it's airscrew shaft.
MK103 at 500m dispersion 14ft - drop 6.6ft.
MK103 at 900m dispersion 29ft - drop 25ft <----kind of the problem you have hitting anything past 1000yds with a 37mm gun.
MK108 at 400m dispersion 30ft - drop 12ft
MA furball distances.
MK103 at 200m dispersion 4ft - drop 1ft.
MK103 at 300m dispersion 7.5ft - drop 2ft
MK108 at 200m dispersion 14ft - drop 2.7ft
Too bad many players in this game ignor the math and science Hitech and Pyro have to learn to create this matrix. It's all kentuky windage and piu, piu, piu to most.
Dispersion is modeled. There is nothing a pilot can do to compensate for dispersion is there? Or are you saying it's not supposed to be random, but rather always off in a predictable way based on bullet rotation? [and angle of attack perhaps?]. If so is there a formula that discribes the resulting force on the round as a function of Spin rate and forward velocity?
If it's random, what can be learned? :salute
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twist drift at distance is even effected by the earth rotation, is not random, but calculation anything useful from it would be impossible IMO. One bullet w/ 20 minutes and a trig calculator maybe, but not with machine guns & every bullet starting at it's own place in atmosphere & time.... Not even Mark Walburg could make any sense out of it.... :D
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Gyroscopic drift and Coriolis acceleration effects are small in comparison to other factors. The shell starts out with its spin axis aligned with its velocity vector. As the trajectory progresses, gravity accelerates the shell down, introducing a component of velocity toward the ground. By weathervaning the shell will follow the velocity vector, which is a nose-down torque. The spin axis reacts by moving 90 degrees from the applied force, in the direction of rotation. This effect is most prominent after the shell has slowed down to sub-sonic speed and drops off rapidly. So the more velocity a gun impart in the shell, the longer the gyroscopic drift is postponed.
I'm really looking forward to trying out this new Messerschmitt.
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Gyroscopic drift and Coriolis acceleration effects are small in comparison to other factors. The shell starts out with its spin axis aligned with its velocity vector. As the trajectory progresses, gravity accelerates the shell down, introducing a component of velocity toward the ground. By weathervaning the shell will follow the velocity vector, which is a nose-down torque. The spin axis reacts by moving 90 degrees from the applied force, in the direction of rotation. This effect is most prominent after the shell has slowed down to sub-sonic speed and drops off rapidly. So the more velocity a gun impart in the shell, the longer the gyroscopic drift is postponed.
(http://pawsru.org/fc/src/fc92378_1296240809190.jpg)
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:lol
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:rofl
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:lol :lol :lol :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :banana: :banana:
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(http://www.spoki.lv/upload/articles/93/93867/images/_origin_They-see-me-rollin-16.jpg)
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The MK103 loadout is quite heavy. The guns and ammo alone weigh just short of 1000lbs and then there's the steel frame they are mounted to, ammo boxes, air pressure bottles and other equipment. To put it into perspective, those 200 MK103 30mm rounds alone weigh roughly the same as the 400 rounds and the two 20mm cannons of the WB151 cannon tray.
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(http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/4219/dibujotb4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/386/dibujotb4.jpg/)
It certainly looks heavy and densely packed.
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That looks like the reverse manuvering thrusters in a "TIE" fighter. Which game are we playing...... :angel:
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That looks like the reverse manuvering thrusters in a "TIE" fighter. Which game are we playing...... :angel:
(http://www.oocities.org/imperial_military/pictures/navy/tie0.jpg)
A Sneak Peak into the new Brewster Buffalo we are getting.
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A Sneak Peak into the new Brewster Buffalo we are getting.
Flight model already in-place :D
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Wonder if Hitech is modeling the chain fire KABoom that will go off when a hisso comes up betweeen your legs in a furball and sets off all those taters?
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Wonder if Hitech is modeling the chain fire KABoom that will go off when a hisso comes up betweeen your legs in a furball and sets off all those taters?
That's my thought whenever I look at that diagriam, if ever such a thing happened or if somehow one of your own rounds prematurely detonated in the barrel, did any of their pilots live to tell the German's about it?
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I've never heard that it ever happened. They weren't between your legs, they were beneath the floor which I believe had some level of armor protection for the pilot.
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I've never heard that it ever happened. They weren't between your legs, they were beneath the floor which I believe had some level of armor protection for the pilot.
200 stick grenades going off under your feet... :airplane: :ahand
Snap, Crackle and Pop.
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Well, since bombs don't explode when struck by incoming bullets, I'm going to say its safe to assume the 410 won't suffer from catastrophic loss of forward fuselage..... I mean the 30mm ammo going up.
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Gyroscopic drift and Coriolis acceleration effects are small in comparison to other factors. The shell starts out with its spin axis aligned with its velocity vector. As the trajectory progresses, gravity accelerates the shell down, introducing a component of velocity toward the ground. By weathervaning the shell will follow the velocity vector, which is a nose-down torque. The spin axis reacts by moving 90 degrees from the applied force, in the direction of rotation. This effect is most prominent after the shell has slowed down to sub-sonic speed and drops off rapidly. So the more velocity a gun impart in the shell, the longer the gyroscopic drift is postponed.
I'm really looking forward to trying out this new Messerschmitt.
with one minor correction...the shell is left behind & the bullet/projectile are acted upon by the forces. :D
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Well, since bombs don't explode when struck by incoming bullets, I'm going to say its safe to assume the 410 won't suffer from catastrophic loss of forward fuselage..... I mean the 30mm ammo going up.
"Cook-Off" or "Low-Order-Detonation" is no joking matter & will in fact tear an aircraft apart if enough small bomblets Cook-Off. I have witnessed this in person as it took out several F-111's on the pad at Mtn Home AFB due to a single faulty static ground while loading LOX. All 4 500lb'ers started it...I know, I know, a lot bigger, but.... :rolleyes:
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I meant bombs in Aces High don't go off when hit, which is clearly for game play, since TnT wasn't made shock-proof untill after the war.
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Each round is stuffed with 85 grams of HA41 (hexogen aluminium) or 85 grams of penthrite. The equivalent of the TNT in a stick grenade.
So the Hispano MkII fired both an HEI and SAPI round in a mixed drum or belt. HTC is probably cludgeing them together. So what happens when a semi armor piercing incendiary\ high explosive round lights up on impact a single Type I, 3 cm Minengeschoss? Hexogen aluminum goes off about 1000c with the explosive output of a stick grenade.
Nawwwww, bet Hitech coaded the damage model so you loose a MK103 or get a pilot wound. Wonder how many time a spit pilot got lucky and cooked off the MK108 ammo in a FW190-A8 wing?
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I've never heard that it ever happened. They weren't between your legs, they were beneath the floor which I believe had some level of armor protection for the pilot.
200 stick grenades going off under your feet... :airplane: :ahand
Snap, Crackle and Pop.
Thus my choice of words "live to tell".
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Each round is stuffed with 85 grams of HA41 (hexogen aluminium) or 85 grams of penthrite. The equivalent of the TNT in a stick grenade.
So the Hispano MkII fired both an HEI and SAPI round in a mixed drum or belt. HTC is probably cludgeing them together. So what happens when a semi armor piercing incendiary\ high explosive round lights up on impact a single Type I, 3 cm Minengeschoss? Hexogen aluminum goes off about 1000c with the explosive output of a stick grenade.
Nawwwww, bet Hitech coaded the damage model so you loose a MK103 or get a pilot wound. Wonder how many time a spit pilot got lucky and cooked off the MK108 ammo in a FW190-A8 wing?
I've seen some guncam footage that shows an fw's wing explode and depart the airframe.Seems like it was the outer 1/3 of the wing so it's very likely this is exactly what happened!
I think I remember reading some combat reports that stated the ammo cooked off and IIRC these were 50 cal rounds.
:salute
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Thus my choice of words "live to tell".
If the damage model is changed so that ordinance and ammo can cook off, then I'm thinking planes with massive amounts of ammo as well as 7.7mm/30 cals would be amazing. You only need one bullet to set it off, and those planes usually have thousands of them and fire amazingly fast.
Bad idea IMO, leave it the way it is, even if it unrealistic for the sake of gameplay.
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Thus my choice of words "live to tell".
I think you're imagining something worse than what really was.
Technically possible? Sure... Any explosive can detonate. Realistic? Nope. You're not just going to spontaneously combust. More than anything else you can bend the metal feed chutes, chew up the metal frames, blow the linkages apart, thus jamming the gun, or damaging the pressurized bottles that feed the gun mechanism, etc.
It's far more likely to stop the function of the weapon than to blow the ammunition.
I've seen some guncam footage that shows an fw's wing explode and depart the airframe.Seems like it was the outer 1/3 of the wing so it's very likely this is exactly what happened!
I've seen that footage, too. I don't think it's certain that the ammunition blew, as an explosion that size would leave a massive fireball expanding outward and bent wings and expanding gasses. In that footage it's just an instant snap, with no expanded skin panels, no outwardly bent ribs or panels.
I'm not saying it would be impossible, just highly improbable. Like the F-111 bombs cooking off on the runway. Possible? Sure. Likely? Not very.
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Krusty,
If you saw the footage I'm talking about you would have seen the explosion,fireball and all! The outer 1/3 of the wing blows up,it doesnt just snap off like it was cut from a bunch of 50 cals.
With so much guncam footage out there the odds that we are talking about the exact same film are pretty remote.
Also the combat report clearly stated that the ammo started to cook off and the pilot was forced to exit the airframe!
:salute
PS: No one is saying HTC is going to model this,it's just a discussion on the posibility of it happening.
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I think you're imagining something worse than what really was.
Technically possible? Sure... Any explosive can detonate. Realistic? Nope. You're not just going to spontaneously combust. More than anything else you can bend the metal feed chutes, chew up the metal frames, blow the linkages apart, thus jamming the gun, or damaging the pressurized bottles that feed the gun mechanism, etc.
It's far more likely to stop the function of the weapon than to blow the ammunition.
I've seen that footage, too. I don't think it's certain that the ammunition blew, as an explosion that size would leave a massive fireball expanding outward and bent wings and expanding gasses. In that footage it's just an instant snap, with no expanded skin panels, no outwardly bent ribs or panels.
I'm not saying it would be impossible, just highly improbable. Like the F-111 bombs cooking off on the runway. Possible? Sure. Likely? Not very.
Actually, it did happen according to both combat reports and numerous gun-cam films. The ammo explosions appear just as you describe. Just a few examples here (note the rather massive wing explosion at :07):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfnSfvM03uA
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If the damage model is changed so that ordinance and ammo can cook off, then I'm thinking planes with massive amounts of ammo as well as 7.7mm/30 cals would be amazing. You only need one bullet to set it off, and those planes usually have thousands of them and fire amazingly fast.
Bad idea IMO, leave it the way it is, even if it unrealistic for the sake of gameplay.
It would be rarer than setting a plane on fire with incindiary rounds at the moment in AH. And I would think if implimented tomorrow it would be no more than a instant death to the pilot (if he's sitting ontop of or imediatley next to the ammo) and a big puff in the sky to everyone else watching. Someday, maybe, if 500-5,000-50,000 bullets could be modeled "daisy-chaining", if the victim/player doesn't feel like he got deprived of a life in an overly-gamey way too often, etc. etc.... I agree, it would be wickedly cool someday (especialy buff formations that take heavy defencive loadouts), but as for today, its a bad idea.
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Morf, you're right. Looking at Kingpin's link I was indeed thinking of a different video clip.
I'd still say highly unlikely, even if possible. There's tons of footage showing planes taking massive hits in the wings (right where the guns/ammo are) without catastrophic explosion. Most of those cannon shells had internal fuzes and needed to be "armed" to explode by flying a set distance. Interestingly enough, it's the arming fuze on the minengeschoss that makes it so lethal (it won't blow up until the fuze stops spinning after it embeds itself into a plane, blowing up on the inside).
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Krusty,
I think kngpins link is showing the footage I was talking about!
If you watch closely it looks like the wing exploded,atleast it does to me!
Now whether this was a result of the ammo cooking off is up for debate but I dont think the LW faced many weapons that were capable of doing that type of damage.
Possibly a 37mm could do it but that would be about the only weapon I can think of.
I wish I could remember the site I read the combat report from,I would link to it because it had some intereting reports!
:salute
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Krusty,
I think kngpins link is showing the footage I was talking about!
If you watch closely it looks like the wing exploded,atleast it does to me!
Now whether this was a result of the ammo cooking off is up for debate but I dont think the LW faced many weapons that were capable of doing that type of damage.
Possibly a 37mm could do it but that would be about the only weapon I can think of.
I wish I could remember the site I read the combat report from,I would link to it because it had some intereting reports!
:salute
It looks like the poor fellow @ 0:07 had his wing magazine go off, the force was so strong it near instantly rolled the plane a full 180.
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Dunno.
All I can say is that one of the few areas that Supermarine or the RAF saw fit to armor on the Spitfire was in front of the cannon ammo boxes.
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Dunno.
All I can say is that one of the few areas that Supermarine or the RAF saw fit to armor on the Spitfire was in front of the cannon ammo boxes.
Only the front? :headscratch:
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You have your choice of 19 grams or 85 grams of HA41 (hexogen aluminium) in a 20mm or 30 mm Minengeschoss round ammo feed group in the outer wing right where those hexogen style explosions were happening in that gun cam footage. American .50 cal API ammo cannot cause an explosion like that without something with an energenic propensity to contact first, causing a detonation.
Remember that war time test footage of a 30mm fired at a static spitfire. Amasing how the hexogen explosion to the wing looks like the hexogen ammunition explosion from inside of the FW190 wing. Wonder how many countries 20mm wing gun's ammunition were susceptible to this kind of external detonation source if the detonator was like penthrite and the HE content was not TNT? Anyone have the time to look at WW2 guncam footage against japan again to see if this signature explosion happens to wings right about where the 20mm ammo group is stored?
The german fuzes AZ1502 in the 20mm and ZZ1589 in the 30mm were both primed with penthrite. An HE rounds detonator cap and body would not withstand the impact of a .50cal API round. The fuze bodies and secondairy inline duplex detonaitors were made of three possible materials. Aluminum, Copper or Magnesium.
Hexogen (RDX) and TNT are the most common explosives used in military explosive compositions. The percentage of these two are set to achieve the desired detonation speed and detonation pressure.
Hexogen or RDX is the more powerfull one, with density around 1.8 g/cm3. TNT is less dense, around 1,65 g/cm3. So if you have two rounds and fill one with RDX and the other with TNT, the RDX round will be 35% more powerfull, but also approx. 5 times more sensitive (dificult to handle).
Aluminium dust is used to increase the detonation speed - side effect: it increases the sensativity.
Hexogen has about 50% more power than TNT (measured as calories per gram x cc per gram) and 100% more brisance or shattering effect, measured by power x velocity of detonation x density. However, it was twice as sensitive.
No cook off in those FW wings. Hexogen explosion.
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Spitfire 30mm static fireing test.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoLLDi-M3fk
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You have your choice of 19 grams or 85 grams of HA41 (hexogen aluminium) in a 20mm or 30 mm Minengeschoss round ammo feed group in the outer wing right where those hexogen style explosions were happening in that gun cam footage. American .50 cal API ammo cannot cause an explosion like that without something with an energenic propensity to contact first, causing a detonation.
Remember that war time test footage of a 30mm fired at a static spitfire. Amasing how the hexogen explosion to the wing looks like the hexogen ammunition explosion from inside of the FW190 wing. Wonder how many countries 20mm wing gun's ammunition were susceptible to this kind of external detonation source if the detonator was like penthrite and the HE content was not TNT? Anyone have the time to look at WW2 guncam footage against japan again to see if this signature explosion happens to wings right about where the 20mm ammo group is stored?
The german fuzes AZ1502 in the 20mm and ZZ1589 in the 30mm were both primed with penthrite. An HE rounds detonator cap and body would not withstand the impact of a .50cal API round. The fuze bodies and secondairy inline duplex detonaitors were made of three possible materials. Aluminum, Copper or Magnesium.
Hexogen (RDX) and TNT are the most common explosives used in military explosive compositions. The percentage of these two are set to achieve the desired detonation speed and detonation pressure.
Hexogen or RDX is the more powerfull one, with density around 1.8 g/cm3. TNT is less dense, around 1,65 g/cm3. So if you have two rounds and fill one with RDX and the other with TNT, the RDX round will be 35% more powerfull, but also approx. 5 times more sensitive (dificult to handle).
Aluminium dust is used to increase the detonation speed - side effect: it increases the sensativity.
Hexogen has about 50% more power than TNT (measured as calories per gram x cc per gram) and 100% more brisance or shattering effect, measured by power x velocity of detonation x density. However, it was twice as sensitive.
No cook off in those FW wings. Hexogen explosion.
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Spitfire 30mm static fireing test.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoLLDi-M3fk
I noticed the lack of cooking too in each one shown in the film, was just one big/violent puffy boomb. Might of been just the chosen compilation of footage.
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Only the front? :headscratch:
Yup.
Edit:
My personal guess was that it was to protect the cannon ammo from rifle caliber rounds inbound during strafing attacks, but I have nothing to support that guess.
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Im wondering too and looking for more info as to maybe why. Spits didn't load 20mm front-end-backwards in the boxes, did they? I thought, comparitavely, the 20mm HE and HEI was pretty stable, fuse wise. But even if not the case, you'd think an incindiary BB round or otherwise would have better "luck" wrecking havok and setting off the 20mm ammo twords the rear and by the round's and thinner brass shell casings and its primer.... curious indeed.
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Yup.
Edit:
My personal guess was that it was to protect the cannon ammo from rifle caliber rounds inbound during strafing attacks, but I have nothing to support that guess.
The armor would also protect against defensive fire from bombers, which is mostly what you armor against on an interceptor.
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Hispano fired HE and SAPI. They fired solid practice rounds for some time before the HE and SAPI were perfected. The kinetic damage of the practice solid was devestating in it's own right.
Then there were the special AP rounds I have posted about befor that were used. Look here at the performance. Spits were loaded with these where needed.
http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=96:hispano-20mm-armour-piercing-ammunition&catid=44:gunsrockets&Itemid=60