Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: tuton25 on December 22, 2012, 01:29:21 PM
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I know alot of older players are going to give me a lot of flak on this one so here we go.......
My Idea is for a free to play first person shooter to make the game more stratigic than get the biggest horde you can find, level town, take field. One of the biggest things we are missing is the working together of tanks, infantry, and aircraft. I personly think that the balance of power should be:
30% Infantry
30% Aircraft
40% Tanks
The consept of concept of capturing a town is the same, get 10 troops in the maproom, but there would not be the downed building requirements anymore. There could also be auto-acks up during the capture but some should be changed to machine gun nests to give the infantry a harder time. In fantry would spawn into the maproom, brought in on M3, SdKfz 251, LVT, or Jeep, or dropped by a C-47. These vehicals would be allowed to be used by the free to play user so they would not be begging a member to do it for them. All other planes and tanks would be off limits.
The first weapons that I think should be added are:
M1a1 Thompson*
M1 Garand*
1903 Springfield
Browning Automatic Rifle*
Kar98
Lee Enfield
Mosin-Nagant
Type 99
*these weapons would have a perked value
All of these weapons have rounds that are already modeled into the game and it would be relativly easy to modle a weapon similar to the .45 we already have. These weapons were some of the most mass-produced weapons of world war two and should get first priority. All players would choose their weapon and also have a .45 as a sidearm. We would also need a change to were we could crouch, go prone, and sprint. This would be very basic at first but could be expanded upon if it became popluar.
Many of the famous battles of world war two were fought on the ground with the backbone of the attack comming from tanks and infantry supported by aircraft. Many people say "this is a flight simulator, go play Call of Duty if you want a first person shooter". That is not what I am going for here. Those games lack the teamwork and community that this game has. They then almost always follow up with "if it was free to play, than the game would become rampent with 13 year old kids begging for more free stuff, and we would loose the community". My Idea is if you are free to play than you cannot be on this community or on the members only channels in the game. If you want these benifits you have to pay.
So flak jacket is on.......FIRE AWAY!!!
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costs:
creating new FPS
integrating new FPS with existing game
maintaining new FPS to deal with the hackers who love FPS
supporting FPS users
revenue:
none - its free duh!
I dont see a business case for this and for that reason ... I'm out!
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Once more, you don't realize how massive of an undertaking this would be. Think how long it takes to model ONE new aircraft that we don't nessicarily even see the inside of.
Now, multiply that out by 5 different infantry models, 8 new small arms, and the inteior of town buildings.
They would also have to rework the physics models for GV's, to enable collisions with enemy infantry. Because if I drive over you, you damn well better die. An infantry AT weapon would also need to be made, else nobody would play the FPS game, because one guy in an M8 could shut down a fight almost completely otherwise (the M3's 75mm should not be available for FPS players).
You would have to completely rework the dynamics of the game. Aircraft would no longer be the primary focus (30% aircraft, 30% infantry, 40% tanks, instead of the current ~80% aircraft, 20% tanks). The aircraft would become the secondary focus of the game, because they would just support the GV's and infantry in your system. The GV's would be the primary attraction, because initially they could dominate the infantry quite easily. CV's would become only support units for support units.
The value of heavy bombers would be severely lessened, as all you have to do is deack the town, and it can be taken. There would no longer be a requirment for anything larger than .30calber weapons to take a possition that could be said to be defended by a full armor division, with a Tiger II battalion and 2 full air wings for support. Perk values for everything would have to be reevaluated, perhaps removed for some aircraft and vehicles as well.
Essentially, you want HTC to remake the game, and do it for free.
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costs:
creating new FPS
integrating new FPS with existing game
maintaining new FPS to deal with the hackers who love FPS
supporting FPS users
revenue:
none - its free duh!
I dont see a business case for this and for that reason ... I'm out!
we already have a base for a first person shooter: the downed pilot
many other games use the same stratagy with a free to play portion and a membership portion:
World of Tanks
Google
Runescape
all of these games have a very large free to use portion and an even larger membership portion
Its a proven buissness model, give them a taste and they'll want the whole cake
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we already have a base for a first person shooter: the downed pilot
many other games use the same stratagy with a free to play portion and a membership portion:
World of Tanks
Google
Runescape
all of these games have a very large free to use portion and an even larger membership portion
Its a proven buissness model, give them a taste and they'll want the whole cake
Google is a F2P game...?
As to the idea, no.
As to the concept of a F2P game in this game, possible but unlikely to happen.
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we already have a base for a first person shooter: the downed pilot
many other games use the same stratagy with a free to play portion and a membership portion:
World of Tanks
Google
Runescape
all of these games have a very large free to use portion and an even larger membership portion
Its a proven buissness model, give them a taste and they'll want the whole cake
Don't play the others, but I just wanna say that WoT is complete and total crap. Its definitely not where we want to see AH go.
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WoT is just an example
My point is wouldn't it be awsome to see a swarm of LVTs hitting a shore or a huge airborn operation to take a town???
Yes, heavy bomber usage would shrink somewhat but I could forsee an increase in medium and light bomber usage for pinpoint targets.
as for the modeling inside buildings it wouldn't have to be much, just an open space to take cover behind and maybe a second floor for snipers
If the building is destroyed you cannot enter it, making bombing still somewhat important.
we could also make the bridges within the town collapse when hit, making it harder to move GVs
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Don't play the others, but I just wanna say that WoT is complete and total crap. Its definitely not where we want to see AH go.
Runescape sucks too. The company who runs it (Jagex - Many others call it something that starts with an F.) got money-reliant and are trying at every turn to get you to buy something. It's one of the few F2P games to get progressively worse with each update.
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Does this mean HTC will pro rate me back my subscription fee each month if I choose only to be one of the FPS troops? Or will I be forced to play along side cheap freeloaders using the same equipment while my credit card is being dinged for $14.95?
Why do so many new guys these days try to talk HTC into resurrecting some version of the old "free play" HtH but, in the MA that we pay to access? It's always under the canard that they are personaly concerned for the future of this game. Ultimatly the sales pitch is to convince HTC they won't survive the new generation of gamers if they don't tease them in the door with free access play in the "for pay" arenas.
Also the posters constantly running up this false flag never seem to have any pilot score or stats in the MAs.
Tuton25,
Do you have an actual ID you play in this game with, or are you trying to con HTC into giving you free access with this post? Do you create a new 2 week ID twice a month? Are you one of the "8 man arena" napoleons from the old free play HtH a few years back? A number of them have tried this route and specious argument in this forum.
Free Play is for the future good of the game and HTC is cutting it's nose off to spite it's face. "Giving away free stuff" is the gaming wave of the future and it's the only way to get the attention of the new generation of players.
Yes a generation of internet freeloaders who don't want to pay for anything.
So tuton25, why is letting "you" personaly play for free a superior business model than HTC receiving my $14.95 each month? Other than you are anonymously receiving charity from me as if you are using my taxes to sit on your kester eating with foodstamps?
So to this audience of paying customers.
How many of you will take a pledge right now to help pay for tuton25 to play for free every month for say the next 5 years? Just like taxes, if enough of us sign up our individual cost burdens will be that much less. We can contact HTC and request an additional amount be taken from our monthly transaction to cover tuton25's account.
Look at all the things he is promesing will happen that we already have in the game without him. We just have to sign this pledge becasue otherwise we are missing out on the untold magic of the imagery presented by his assertions of a brighter, vibrant, and more exciting future in Aces High.
Who will be the first to sign on to a better tomorrow lead by tuton25?
FORWARD...................... ....... :noid
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Does this mean HTC will pro rate me back my subscription fee each month if I choose only to be one of the FPS troops? Or will I be forced to play along side cheap freeloaders using the same equipment while my credit card is being dinged for $14.95?
Why do so many new guys these days try to talk HTC into resurrecting some version of the old "free play" HtH but, in the MA that we pay to access? It's always under the canard that they are personaly concerned for the future of this game. Ultimatly the sales pitch is to convince HTC they won't survive the new generation of gamers if they don't tease them in the door with free access play in the "for pay" arenas.
Also the posters constantly running up this false flag never seem to have any pilot score or stats in the MAs.
Tuton25,
Do you have an actual ID you play in this game with, or are you trying to con HTC into giving you free access with this post? Do you create a new 2 week ID twice a month? Are you one of the "8 man arena" napoleons from the old free play HtH a few years back? A number of them have tried this route and specious argument in this forum.
Free Play is for the future good of the game and HTC is cutting it's nose off to spite it's face. "Giving away free stuff" is the gaming wave of the future and it's the only way to get the attention of the new generation of players.
Yes a generation of internet freeloaders who don't want to pay for anything.
So tuton25, why is letting "you" personaly play for free a superior business model than HTC receiving my $14.95 each month? Other than you are anonymously receiving charity from me as if you are using my taxes to sit on your kester eating with foodstamps?
So to this audience of paying customers.
How many of you will take a pledge right now to help pay for tuton25 to play for free every month for say the next 5 years? Just like taxes, if enough of us sign up our individual cost burdens will be that much less. We can contact HTC and request an additional amount be taken from our monthly transaction to cover tuton25's account.
Look at all the things he is promesing will happen that we already have in the game without him. We just have to sign this pledge becasue otherwise we are missing out on the untold magic of the imagery presented by his assertions of a brighter, vibrant, and more exciting future in Aces High.
Who will be the first to sign on to a better tomorrow lead by tuton25?
FORWARD...................... ....... :noid
This guy.... :rolleyes:
Personally I would love a little mini FPS inside AH, like in towns and stuff, I think it would be really awesome! However, it's never going to happen :aok
:salute
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I pay for a subscription every month just like everyone else....
My in-game name is Fish and I fly with the Claim Jumpers on the rooks
I'm not here to Con HTC and if this were add I wouldn't stop my subscrition (I couldn't live without my Mossie)
Part of it is that the 2 week free trial isn't enough time for anyone to get enough air time to be a decent dogfighter, ultimately scaring some new guys away
If they could get some stick time behind a goon and learn some of the physics behind flight they might sign up for a subscription
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Tuton25,
Do you have an actual ID you play in this game with, or are you trying to con HTC into giving you free access with this post? Do you create a new 2 week ID twice a month? Are you one of the "8 man arena" napoleons from the old free play HtH a few years back? A number of them have tried this route and specious argument in this forum.
Wouldn't work. Seems to track by IP adress or something. Ran out of pre-pay and forgot to renew, so had to create a new account back in '09 or something around there, and didn't get 2 weeks free. Just hear-say, but apparently "someone" got their IP banned by using other computers to create a new account every 2 weeks, but then just playing at their house, or something.
If true, all I can say is fantastic work HTC.
Personally I would love a little mini FPS inside AH, like in towns and stuff, I think it would be really awesome! However, it's never going to happen.
Same. Would love to see FPS guys running around, so you could machine-gun them as they scurry around. A bit like whack-a-mole in the towns, I would imagine.
But I think it should never ever be FTP. And I also recognize that a complete and total overhaul of the game just so you can essentially bail out of your plane and shoot other bailed-out pilots will never happen.
Really, I would like to see multi-purpose infantry though. Like assult/capture infantry, defensive infantry, maybe specialized AT infantry where you can drop 5 two-man bazooka teams that will set up ambushes randomly between 0 and 3000yds from the maproom. All AI, of course. They would essentially function as player-deployed super squishy, short-ranged auto-ack, but firing shaped charge rockets.
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RedBull,
I see you didn't touch on "free play" or simply a mini FPS available as part of your monthly pay for play subscription fee. Free Play is seductive aint it.....
If the idea was wishing for an introduction of FPS then thats been touched on by Hitech as something in consideration some time ago.
The OP is using FPS as part of a canard to promote "free play" in the "for pay" arenas. Sexy idea ain't it? Who pays for it? Hitechcreations? We the $14.95 subscription players?
RedBull, will you agree to join a group of players and ask HTC to take an additional amount from your credit card each moth to pay for tuton25(fish) to play for free? Unless someone else is paying your credit card bill each month and you don't have any control over your subscription contract other than canceling it? Or is yours bought in blocks of time and you have to keep someone happy to get the next block of time?
Fish, you willing to pay a bit more for me to play for free....hmmmm?? HTC is about $2000.00 into me so far in all of these years. Haven't I payed my fair share after all of this time compaired to newer players?
In this game skill takes time and cannot be purchased as an addon or upgrade. Unless you can convice Hitech to sell aimbots and antigrav modules which would kill the game. Hitech has provided tools and toys adfinitum to assist newcomers to develop their skillz. It's a shame most of them don't take the time to use them in the face of knowing how to access them. Besides the Trainers, everyone in this game fancies themselves as trainers. There is no drought of help if asked.
New players getting up to speed is a self serving canard in the face of all of the tools and services provided in this game. Ultimatly you cannot fix stupid or force anyone to expend anymore effort than they want to succeed in this game. But, but, Free Play is just so derned sexy of an idea. Aint it.....who pays for it?? Smirnoff, Jonny Walker, Red Bull USA, Coke Cola, Nike, Joe's Plumbing, Edd's Pak and Save? You and me with increased subscription rates?
Oh, yeah, as usual its up to Hitech to figure that out becasue you are the idea kind of guy opposed to Hitech just does the janitorial work in the basement to keep everything running. tuton2(fish) you are going to make a fine executive some day. Just remember, when your ideas start blowing up, firing employees buys you time and looks good to your investors for that fiscal quarter. Just don't goof and fire your own Hitech by accident and kill the company outright. In the real Hitech's case he dosen't have enough employees to use that trick to offset falling revenues if he makes a mistake. Can you write him a check to cover his payroll and costs for three months?
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If they could get some stick time behind a goon and learn some of the physics behind flight they might sign up for a subscription
That won't be helped by your FTP system, where they don't get to fly aircraft. Don't back pedal.
However, something that might be worth it is extending the trial for the TA to something like a month, or maybe 2 months. Enough time for noobs to learn how to fly OK-ish, although it would mean HTC might have to expand the trainer corps so there are more online at any given time.
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RedBull,
I see you didn't touch on "free play" or simply a mini FPS available as part of your monthly pay for play subscription fee. Free Play is seductive aint it.....
If the idea was wishing for an introduction of FPS then thats been touched on by Hitech as something in consideration some time ago.
The OP is using FPS as part of a canard to promote "free play" in the "for pay" arenas. Sexy idea ain't it? Who pays for it? Hitechcreations? We the $14.95 subscription players?
RedBull, will you agree to join a group of players and ask HTC to take an additional amount from your credit card each moth to pay for tuton25(fish) to play for free? Unless someone else is paying your credit card bill each month and you don't have any control over your subscription contract other than canceling it? Or is yours bought in blocks of time and you have to keep someone happy to get the next block of time?
Fish, you willing to pay a bit more for me to play for free....hmmmm?? HTC is about $2000.00 into me so far in all of these years. Haven't I payed my fair share after all of this time compaired to newer players?
In this game skill takes time and cannot be purchased as an addon or upgrade. Unless you can convice Hitech to sell aimbots and antigrav modules which would kill the game. Hitech has provided tools and toys adfinitum to assist newcomers to develop their skillz. It's a shame most of them don't take the time to use them in the face of knowing how to access them. Besides the Trainers, everyone in this game fancies themselves as trainers. There is no drought of help if asked.
New players getting up to speed is a self serving canard in the face of all of the tools and services provided in this game. Ultimatly you cannot fix stupid or force anyone to expend anymore effort than they want to succeed in this game. But, but, Free Play is just so derned sexy of an idea. Aint it.....who pays for it?? Smirnoff, Jonny Walker, Red Bull USA, Coke Cola, Nike, Joe's Plumbing, Edd's Pak and Save? You and me with increased subscription rates?
Oh, yeah, as usual its up to Hitech to figure that out becasue you are the idea kind of guy opposed to Hitech just does the janitorial work in the basement to keep everything running. tuton2(fish) you are going to make a fine executive some day. Just remember, when your ideas start blowing up, firing employees buys you time and looks good to your investors for that fiscal quarter. Just don't goof and fire your own Hitech by accident and kill the company outright. In the real Hitech's case he dosen't have enough employees to use that trick to offset falling revenues if he makes a mistake. Can you write him a check to cover his payroll and costs for three months?
No, it should not be free, it should be just like any other part of the game like GV'ing or something, you select a soldier in the hangar perhaps? rifleman, artillery, sniper, etc., you run out of the tower or perhaps spawn somewhere in or near town? I don't know.
Personally I would love to run circles around tanks and piss them off shooting my rifle at them :lol
Deal with campers in buildings in some creative ways like BF3 :3
I think if HiTech could find a way to introduce this to the game one day it would be great, would broaden the game a LOT, there are not many good WWII FPS games out there other than maybe Red Orchestra, seeing how HTC can model planes and GV's - I would be ecstatic to see what they can do with soldiers :aok
However like I said, I do not see this happening, and if it does - I don't think it will not be for a very long time
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Again I would just like to restate that I am not a freeloader trying to get free stuff
I just wan't to see for a more stratigic game dominated by GVs and Infantry
I came here for the flying but quickly saw that this game could be so much more than that
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That won't be helped by your FTP system, where they don't get to fly aircraft. Don't back pedal.
However, something that might be worth it is extending the trial for the TA to something like a month, or maybe 2 months. Enough time for noobs to learn how to fly OK-ish, although it would mean HTC might have to expand the trainer corps so there are more online at any given time.
OH the goon whacking there would be...
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Again I would just like to restate that I am not a freeloader trying to get free stuff
I just wan't to see for a more stratigic game dominated by GVs and Infantry
I came here for the flying but quickly saw that this game could be so much more than that
So you came to a combat flight sim and think it would be so much better to turn it into a ground sim? Am I the only one
that finds this odd?
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So you came to a combat flight sim and think it would be so much better to turn it into a ground sim? Am I the only one
that finds this odd?
Well in society today it seems as if something makes sense, its not welcome. Of course turning a flight sim into a ground sim isn't very smart but it could happen.
I think we need to get with the program here. If it doesn't make sense, then its right. :rolleyes:
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turning AH into a FPS........no thanx..............
Farcry 3......Just cause....Homefront.....Metro 2033........Max Payne3.........all do a bang up job of FPS's...ill stick with them......and Fly in AH when I want what I cant get from ANY other game.......
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So you came to a combat flight sim and think it would be so much better to turn it into a ground sim?
If adding more and more gameplay parts on the ground, on or under the water could help keeping the air part alive... I think yes.
(This doesn't mean I am supporting the OP)
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Yes to FPS part NO to reducing the requirements for caping town and NO to free to play but I like the Concept and H*** no to AI we already have lazy AI no need for more
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I'm for anything that makes HTC expand.... ords are not perked/ 15bux gets me the tools to play anything in game. and a pby ;)
Also free fps is not a good idea.
I did really enjoy the battlefield games but the airspace was to small and was very gamie in flight characteristics. But napalming people in battlefield Vietnam...the best gaming experience I've ever had...
That being said Ah is a vehicle sim....battlefield series was a fps with lots of vehicles and in ratios to players (2 tanks 2choppers 1jet for a team of 32). This kind of situation wouldn't work for AH ever.
What I may suggest is a cheaper V of game like 5bucks and u can only play "fps", gun for someone, and maybe drive that German half track...(was going to say jeep but I can see too many of them getting really annoying fast).
I have played that blitzkrieg game. It really is like if an fps and AH had a baby....I thought it was awful lol
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I know alot of older players are going to give me a lot of flak on this one so here we go.......
My Idea is for a free to play first person shooter to make the game more stratigic than get the biggest horde you can find, level town, take field. One of the biggest things we are missing is the working together of tanks, infantry, and aircraft. I personly think that the balance of power should be:
30% Infantry
30% Aircraft
40% Tanks
The consept of concept of capturing a town is the same, get 10 troops in the maproom, but there would not be the downed building requirements anymore. There could also be auto-acks up during the capture but some should be changed to machine gun nests to give the infantry a harder time. In fantry would spawn into the maproom, brought in on M3, SdKfz 251, LVT, or Jeep, or dropped by a C-47. These vehicals would be allowed to be used by the free to play user so they would not be begging a member to do it for them. All other planes and tanks would be off limits.
The first weapons that I think should be added are:
M1a1 Thompson*
M1 Garand*
1903 Springfield
Browning Automatic Rifle*
Kar98
Lee Enfield
Mosin-Nagant
Type 99
*these weapons would have a perked value
All of these weapons have rounds that are already modeled into the game and it would be relativly easy to modle a weapon similar to the .45 we already have. These weapons were some of the most mass-produced weapons of world war two and should get first priority. All players would choose their weapon and also have a .45 as a sidearm. We would also need a change to were we could crouch, go prone, and sprint. This would be very basic at first but could be expanded upon if it became popluar.
Many of the famous battles of world war two were fought on the ground with the backbone of the attack comming from tanks and infantry supported by aircraft. Many people say "this is a flight simulator, go play Call of Duty if you want a first person shooter". That is not what I am going for here. Those games lack the teamwork and community that this game has. They then almost always follow up with "if it was free to play, than the game would become rampent with 13 year old kids begging for more free stuff, and we would loose the community". My Idea is if you are free to play than you cannot be on this community or on the members only channels in the game. If you want these benifits you have to pay.
So flak jacket is on.......FIRE AWAY!!!
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Again I would just like to restate that I am not a freeloader trying to get free stuff
I just wan't to see for a more stratigic game dominated by GVs and Infantry
I came here for the flying but quickly saw that this game could be so much more than that
If anything, your suggestion would push things towards tactical gameplay, and even further from the strategic level that you're claiming to want to promote.
Instead they will just focus on what the best unit to use to capture the base is, and whether they should use Panzers or M4's for tank support.
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Hitech has already been talking about doing something like this for a while now, I think including the F2P part
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For me the world is full of FPS's already.............
I do see a role for AI infantry that can be launched from vehicles to create a target/game play back drop to the conflict....... I suppose some FP "special roles" e.g artilery spotter could interface well where the machine interface requires a body out side the machine for proper functionality.
EDIT.............. and nothing in this world is free
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Hitech has already been talking about doing something like this for a while now, I think including the F2P part
It doesn't sound like it here, but I could be wrong....
The achievement system is simply to give players something different to do when they feel like something different. No more no less. It has absolutely nothing to do with any type of a different payment system/business model.
If I was ever to do a WOT type payment system, I sure would not choose a realism base WWII aircraft to do it with.
HiTech
Nothing good is free, and you get what you pay for. I think it's time for the OP to get a job and start paying his bills.
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If adding more and more gameplay parts on the ground, on or under the water could help keeping the air part alive... I think yes.
(This doesn't mean I am supporting the OP)
Aces High with 30% air combat adds to keeping the air part alive how? It may bring more folks in, but I am thinking they will care
even less than the current crop of new guys do. It's not like there aren't plenty of FPSers out there if that's what you like. Certainly
many many more than flight sims.
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The idea of infantry is a cool concept... but the first time you lose a tiger 2 with 20 kills to a frontal shot from a bazooka you will want the infantry gone.
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It doesn't sound like it here, but I could be wrong....
Nothing good is free, and you get what you pay for. I think it's time for the OP to get a job and start paying his bills.
There is nothing in that post that has to do with a first person shooter. Or with the broader future of the game, he only states that the achievement system has no broader implications on gameplay or payment model than what's going on at face value.
HTC has offered a limited version of the game before for free play, and it took a lot of breaches of the security of the game for them to finally decide it wasn't worth the risk. I don't think there's any reason to believe they're categorically against bringing something new to the table which offers free players a taste beyond their two weeks (though I may very well be wrong and I won't say that I definitely believe they're searching for one, whether or not I have a twinkle of memory of HT mentioning something about it).
Hitech has pretty strongly hinted over the past couple of years that they're developing (or at least interested in developing) a first-person-shooter aspect of this game, and as of late the hints suggest have begun to suggest that they've made some actual progress and are drawing nearer to implementation or maybe at least some sort of beta or alpha. I think it's worthless to discuss the merits of this game having an FPS infantry aspect, because I'm fairly certain that it's already in the works.
A first person shooter, combined arms type of war would likely require a much larger player base of grunts and machine gun fodder to offer any kind of decent experience. Offering the first person shooter section of the game, or maybe the whole ground section, for free could practically offer a non-static ground war that could be implemented without the need for developing an AI for it as has been asked for on several occasions in the past. When people are with a certain regularity getting their days ruined by planes and tanks they have an incentive to pay up and get full access. This is hardly the same as offering base models of aircraft and tanks and paying for the better ones, as the ground war and the air war are to a decent extent separate by nature.
Let's dig up some posts...
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There is nothing in that post that has to do with a first person shooter. Or with the broader future of the game, he only states that the achievement system has no broader implications on gameplay or payment model than what's going on at face value.
HTC has offered a limited version of the game before for free play, and it took a lot of breaches of the security of the game for them to finally decide it wasn't worth the risk. I don't think there's any reason to believe they're categorically against bringing something new to the table which offers free players a taste beyond their two weeks (though I may very well be wrong and I won't say that I definitely believe they're searching for one, whether or not I have a twinkle of memory of HT mentioning something about it).
Hitech has pretty strongly hinted over the past couple of years that they're developing (or at least interested in developing) a first-person-shooter aspect of this game, and as of late the hints suggest have begun to suggest that they've made some actual progress and are drawing nearer to implementation or maybe at least some sort of beta or alpha. I think it's worthless to discuss the merits of this game having an FPS infantry aspect, because I'm fairly certain that it's already in the works.
A first person shooter, combined arms type of war would likely require a much larger player base of grunts and machine gun fodder to offer any kind of decent experience. Offering the first person shooter section of the game, or maybe the whole ground section, for free could practically offer a non-static ground war that could be implemented without the need for developing an AI for it as has been asked for on several occasions in the past. When people are with a certain regularity getting their days ruined by planes and tanks they have an incentive to pay up and get full access. This is hardly the same as offering base models of aircraft and tanks and paying for the better ones, as the ground war and the air war are to a decent extent separate by nature.
Let's dig up some posts...
Genius.....what I have been trying to say this whole time....
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One of these is actually from another thread tuton posted a few months ago on the subject...
I didn't find anything alluding directly to it being a F2P option, but it's really not a stretch to think that that could be on the table.
There's definitely more, too, just a little while ago he made a post about infantry meshes.
I'm not too hot on the whole "practically separate game" as I'd rather have a seamless transition ("in a perfect world") but I'm not hitech
Wow, now this strikes me as a fun place to do first person shooter action. Imagine, getting the mission together, "para-trooping" in, and having to do battle with opposing infantry to actually CAPTURE the map room. Talk about a gold plated hoot. How about you become an infantryman if your tank is disabled? Then the GVers would have troops armed with bazookas to deal with. How about storming the beaches in LVTs? AHII meets COD?
I hope you dream becomes reality.
HiTech
HiTech dream of capture.
1. Drop troops on town creates a spawn.
2. In building 1st person shooter fights to take over the town.
Your very close to my concept except the troops create a FPS spawn to complete the capture, it is entered into in the same game but the sim/combat piece does not interact with each other. I.E. planes can not strafe the FPS guys.
HiTech
I wish AH Had a character animation system so so FPS and troops could be integrated.
I wish AH had support for dual sound drivers so ear phones and mics could be split off from speakers.
I wish AH had WWI planes.
I wish AH had Subs.
I wish AH had spawning arenas with the ability for players to configure and upload there terrains.
I wish AH had a new low level sound system to support midi and mp3 file formats.
I wish AH had ambient sounds in different areas and buildings.
I wish AH had the ability to bump map planes and other objects.
I wish AH had the ability for boats to drive on rivers.
I wish AH had more animation on vehicles as they move across terrain.
I wish AH had an integrated WEB page on the clip board to make event announcements and squad bbs reading better.
HiTech
The concept I have always wanted to implement, but I am short some character animation stuff to do so dancing troops was the first piece, was that when you drop troops on the ground (still npc) it opens a spawn into into an underground bunker complex that you use player controlled troops to complete the capture or defend the capture.
The aspect that this idea has going for it, is that it isolates the mechanized world I.E. planes & tanks and a huge world graphics, from the solder fighting.
HiTech
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o19CaOSuD8 sorry but this fits this thread so well
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One of these is actually from another thread tuton posted a few months ago on the subject...
I didn't find anything alluding directly to it being a F2P option, but it's really not a stretch to think that that could be on the table.
There's definitely more, too, just a little while ago he made a post about infantry meshes.
I'm not too hot on the whole "practically separate game" as I'd rather have a seamless transition ("in a perfect world") but I'm not hitech
I hope you dream becomes reality.
HiTech
I know that HTC hope to one days have a FPS element in the game. That was NOT the part I was commenting on, it was the "Free to Play" portion. In the quote I posted he says, "If I was ever to do a WOT type payment system, I sure would not choose a realism base WWII aircraft to do it with" . As this game IS based on WWII aircraft my guess is he doesn't plan on doing F2P in this game. As you have posted, he has already gotten burned by "free play" already.
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HiTech has stated for the record (as recorded in an article I did for Wargamer magazine a few years back) that a FPS is a desired goal for HTC. His idea at the time of the interview was to have the M3 or C47 act as a temporary spawn point for players making an assault. The map room would be a spawn point for the defenders, and would be expanded into a multi-room, multi-level complex that would have to be captured to capture the base. That's about as much detail as he offered at the time. This was the same interview where he talked about adding bomber formations as an option for buff players; you'll note that we now have this in game. He also talked about his desire to add submarines, and his ideas for implementing them. I'd also point out that we even use something of a FPS in this game. How many of us have upped a Storch from a V-base about to be over run in order to bail out and run to the map room to kill the troops as they attempt to run in? It would take very little to add the option to directly spawn a soldier, with a rifle instead of a pistol. Maybe add the ability to switch weapons (pistol/rifle/grenade, with option to take a bazooka instead of a rifle). Be a quick and easy way to gauge player response and interest before spending a lot of time to make it more realistic. There's no need to ever make it as realistic or pretty as, say Black Ops III.
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The problem I see with putting in FPS mechanics into this game is, the map isn't designed to be walked over. To me, the level of detail in the terrain is a bit sparse even for GV play. It's ok, but not at the level of many other tank centric games. If people are there to be free to play FPS cannon fodder, it needs to look good. FPS gamers are among the most demanding for graphics and detail in the environment.
Just allowing a guy to spawn with a rifle in the current towns would not be enough to retain anybody's attention for long. I can already hear, 'wait, there's only ONE town layout for us to fight in and we can't go into the buildings?'
The maps would need a complete rework, and from what I've read in passing the low map detail is one of the main reasons the game can be played by many of the older systems people have. I wouldn't expect it anytime soon, that's for sure.
Wiley.
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Based on current designs, the FPS side of this game would be too repetetive tbh: Unless they made it feel something like the original Rainbow Six, it wouldn't stand a chance vs whats out there.
From everything I have seen HT just doesn't have what it takes to give it a proper "feel", because hes all about numbers (by his own admission). The FPS genre is mostly about giving a "feeling" because how deep it is buried in gaming culture.
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As you have posted, he has already gotten burned by "free play" already.
When and how exactly did the free-play arena modes cause problems?
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I do have to admit to curiosity how it would play out if they were to go to combined arms starting from the vehicle angle they have here, rather than most other combined arms games that add vehicles onto an FPS. Any other combined arms games I've looked at, the flight side of it felt tacked on over a weekend.
Wiley.
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I know that HTC hope to one days have a FPS element in the game. That was NOT the part I was commenting on, it was the "Free to Play" portion. In the quote I posted he says, "If I was ever to do a WOT type payment system, I sure would not choose a realism base WWII aircraft to do it with" . As this game IS based on WWII aircraft my guess is he doesn't plan on doing F2P in this game. As you have posted, he has already gotten burned by "free play" already.
I really don't think you could conclude that this would be a WOT type payment system, because it's... well pretty much completely dissimilar, you're not paying for access individually to more equipment, you're paying for access to a completely different facet of the game.
Also, while HTC was burned by H2H, they had to be burned several times before they removed it. I think that this showed a real reluctance to ditch a free facet of the game. I also don't think that the same problems would arise from using this model, since it's not tucked away in untrodden places.
When and how exactly did the free-play arena modes cause problems?
Right before it was removed it was used as a test bed for hacks that were used in the main arena.
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The problem I see with putting in FPS mechanics into this game is, the map isn't designed to be walked over. To me, the level of detail in the terrain is a bit sparse even for GV play. It's ok, but not at the level of many other tank centric games. If people are there to be free to play FPS cannon fodder, it needs to look good. FPS gamers are among the most demanding for graphics and detail in the environment.
Just allowing a guy to spawn with a rifle in the current towns would not be enough to retain anybody's attention for long. I can already hear, 'wait, there's only ONE town layout for us to fight in and we can't go into the buildings?'
The maps would need a complete rework, and from what I've read in passing the low map detail is one of the main reasons the game can be played by many of the older systems people have. I wouldn't expect it anytime soon, that's for sure.
Wiley.
I think HTC said something about it would almost be a game by itself where the FPS and the flying would not interact other than it would be the way the bases were capture. I could be wrong tho....old guy. However if that was the case, once you slipped in to FPS mode of the game it wouldn't be the terrain the fliers are on. It would be another almost dimension, each town/base could be any number of of configurations. Either a number of "maps" for each, of say half a dozen pods that are randomly thrown together to create that mini play field to capture the base.
When and how exactly did the free-play arena modes cause problems?
HTC use to supply server space, for free, to create your own 8 player worlds. My guess is it exposed too much of their game code and it was hacked. HTC closed off the free play arenas and then closed of the area of code the hacker got to. It was years before they felt they had things tight enough to allow custom arenas again.
I'm sure they have even better code in place now and a F2P set-up wouldn't be a problem for them, but HTC has said they wouldn't do that with this type of game. As this is the type of game business they ARE in I'm guessing that F2P isn't in the cards.
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By the time HTC decides to move on the f2p wave, its going to be too late.
The world of gaming moves much faster then it used to.
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By the time HTC decides to move on the f2p wave, its going to be too late.
The world of gaming moves much faster then it used to.
Not all games suite the F2P business model.
ack-ack
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Then those games will die, no?
Expectations evolve faster then one can imagine.
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Then those games will die, no?
Not all of them. F2P isn't the end all of end all business models for MMO's and not suited for all types of games.
ack-ack
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By the time HTC decides to move on the f2p wave, its going to be too late.
The world of gaming moves much faster then it used to.
HTC better get moving, it's obvious that after 13 years of running the SAME game that it can't possibly last ! :rolleyes:
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I don't know guys, its a confusing world of MMO's out there today. Most of the old subscription games are gone or depopulated to the point of death and this is one of the few ones left with a bit of activity.
One of the upside of the older games is the lower hosting requirements for running them, I would guess.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWMBeLrZoyw
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HTC better get moving, it's obvious that after 13 years of running the SAME game that it can't possibly last ! :rolleyes:
I guess its probably too late actually, now that I think of it. Aces High can never really go free to play, I don't buy the whole type of game arguement; but I do know its certainly too much of a dinosaur to compete with modern f2p expectations at the least.
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I guess its probably too late actually, now that I think of it. Aces High can never really go free to play, I don't buy the whole type of game arguement; but I do know its certainly too much of a dinosaur to compete with modern f2p expectations at the least.
It's not that AH is a dinosaur unable to compete with modern F2P business model, it's the person wishing that doesn't really know the dynamics involved with a F2P business model or any other business model used by MMO games.
ack-ack
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Well part of that f2p business model seems to be instanced based systems with a non-persistant worlds; which would mean that AH is a dinosaur in comparison to these speedy new creatures...
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You're assuming it needs to evolve though. A sandbox game is significantly different from a round based game like WoT or WT. They're completely different, and some people like myself don't particularly enjoy the instance-based gameplay.
It's not inevitable that everything wind up at that destination. AH has been a niche game from day 1. That's just how it is.
Wiley.
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Well part of that f2p business model seems to be instanced based systems with a non-persistant worlds; which would mean that AH is a dinosaur in comparison to these speedy new creatures...
Why do you in any way think that instancing and speed have anything to do with each other.
WOT entire world is less then 1 square mile. And has a fog visibility distance of less the 1000 yards.
If you equate this to AH , you would not be able to see the end of a runway on takeoff.
AH map sizes are over 250,000 square miles with a visibility distance of about 18 miles.
Now this does not mean one approach is better then the other, but what it shows is that different game goals create different coding design decisions.
HiTech
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I did not mean dinosaur in a derogatory fashion, just in size and stature;as you pointed out.
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Why do so many new guys these days try to talk HTC into resurrecting some version of the old "free play" HtH but, in the MA that we pay to access? It's always under the canard that they are personaly concerned for the future of this game. Ultimatly the sales pitch is to convince HTC they won't survive the new generation of gamers if they don't tease them in the door with free access play in the "for pay" arenas.
Because it makes good business sense. I don't know about his particular idea, but FREE works. huge major corporations spend BILLIONS a year luring in customers with free stuff. But it takes a commitment and probably a lot of initial headache to make it work. And of course the right approach to begin.
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The point of F2P is to populate the arena with infantry because, inadvertently, the initial phases of the FPS will be rather basic (A rifle, pistol, maybe granades) and I don't think alot of the hardcore FPS fans would buy into that initially. With time I think many would enjoy the full combat style system envolving teamwork between infantry, armour, and airpower and supscribe for full features.....
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HTC better get moving, it's obvious that after 13 years of running the SAME game that it can't possibly last ! :rolleyes:
It's only lasted so long because its original. Give me a list of 10 other games that are nearly like this game in terms of flight and combat.
I could name at least 20 different FPS games. Those will eventually wear out, CoD will fail and Halo will eventually fall too. Those games are just the same thing, different looks. Point, shoot, kill, die, respawn.
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The one thing people advocating a F2P business model is that they really don't know that a F2P game isn't really free. For example, if HiTech would go the F2P route, you can be sure that they will only give you the base planes for free (planes like the Spitfire Mk IX, P-51D, FW190D-9, etc.) while charging you if you want to fly the top tier planes like the La7, Spitfire Mk XVI and the monetization probably wouldn't stop there. Want to carry 1,000 pound bombs on your Mustang? Sure, pony up some money to buy or rent (for a tour) for the ability to lug 1,000 bombs. Want a new map? Sure, pony up some more money. Want to drive tanks? Pony up some more money to buy or rent them. You would probably end up paying more in a F2P game then you would for a subscription based game.
There is a reason why the majority of F2P games released fail within the first year.
ack-ack
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In addition to the fact that his suggestion wouldn't have the intended effect, and would require a massive overhaul of the game to make it work to HTCs standards, I question the basic assumption that we WANT a bunch of annoying, inept FPS tards in the game, even as cannon fodder.
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I know alot of older players are going to give me a lot of flak on this one so here we go.......
My Idea is for a free to play first person shooter to make the game more stratigic than get the biggest horde you can find, level town, take field.
So flak jacket is on.......FIRE AWAY!!!
followed by
My point is wouldn't it be awsome to see a swarm of LVTs hitting a shore or a huge airborn operation to take a town???
:headscratch:
and besides the points others have already made.
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Just in case a someone has thrown me into the free to play pile, my part of the pile has a different opinion. Not all free needs to require some huge drastic change to the game. We have hanger queens that are prime candidates for free players that would guarantee new subscriptions. Yes I said guarantee.
Who knows how many. Maybe it's one in a thousand, maybe it's five hundred/thousand.
It would provide more targets for the paying players. Especially during late off peak hours, this could be a boom for late night.
2 things would be guaranteed to happen, A- free players would tire of being restricted to free rides and would either permanently or occasionally as their finances allowed pay subscription. Or B- two week'ers, who might have played during late hours where pupulation would normally be at 50-100 (last I knew), would subscribe because their playing experience was bolstered by a well populated game during all hours of the day.
There is no downside. You can control the conditions however it suits it's purpose best.
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Just in case a someone has thrown me into the free to play pile, my part of the pile has a different opinion. Not all free needs to require some huge drastic change to the game. We have hanger queens that are prime candidates for free players that would guarantee new subscriptions. Yes I said guarantee.
Who knows how many. Maybe it's one in a thousand, maybe it's five hundred/thousand.
It would provide more targets for the paying players. Especially during late off peak hours, this could be a boom for late night.
2 things would be guaranteed to happen, A- free players would tire of being restricted to free rides and would either permanently or occasionally as their finances allowed pay subscription. Or B- two week'ers, who might have played during late hours where pupulation would normally be at 50-100 (last I knew), would subscribe because their playing experience was bolstered by a well populated game during all hours of the day.
There is no downside. You can control the conditions however it suits it's purpose best.
there's a huge downside. Paying players may decide to stop paying and fly the free rides.
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there's a huge downside. Paying players may decide to stop paying and fly the free rides.
You're joking right?
You're telling me that guys who have been playing this game for a decade and in some cases outgeek Trek-ies in their loyalty are going to quit to...???
We didnt even decide what exactly was going to be the free part yet and you've already determined the consequences.
They have reputation for being hanger queens for a reason and even the few devotees to the least used in the game don't exclusively stick to those rides. And like I said, you can use conditions to regulate it any way you want and if one of the regulations was something along the lines of "only X number of free players at a time," then those former paying customers might be locked out, wondering why they chose to fly an I16 exclusively in the MA when they managed to come up with 15 bucks just fine for years.
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there's a huge downside. Paying players may decide to stop paying and fly the free rides.
F2P subscribers will still have to pay for content a subscriber won't have to. What if the F2P player wants to fly another plane? Or if they want to take another ordnance package? Or what if they want to fly on another map? Or access to another arena? As I mentioned previously, the F2P player will find themselves paying more a month than they would if they were a subscriber if they wish to enjoy additional content.
ack-ack
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Muzik, I don't think all would quit, or even a signficant number. But there are those few people......
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Perk
the
snipers
Seriously.
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Muzik, I don't think all would quit, or even a signficant number. But there are those few people......
You know, that is always the case no matter how hard a company tries. Then it comes down to which benefits the game and the goals of the company more.
fictional scenario-- McDonalds posts an advertisement in a magazine that has a Jewish owner and some twit refuses to ever eat there because of his prejudice. What's the company to do when there is some bias for every action they take?
And sure enough the first time a free player uses 'check 6' a hundred times on a paying customer there is going to be an outcry and demand to stop free play. Is that going to end all 'check 6 weenies?'
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By the way, the best reason to try some form of free play is the learning curve in this game. 2 weeks is great if you knew enough to set up the game and solve all the pc issues before you went online. And then if you have plenty of free time to play before the two weeks is up.
I was addicted to AW from the first day and wouldnt have, scratch that, DIDNT quit regardless of all the computer issues that came up when I was just learning to use a pc. It was a nightmare. Not everyone is that passionate about learning a game. You got to give them more time to take the bait.
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You're joking right?
You're telling me that guys who have been playing this game for a decade and in some cases outgeek Trek-ies in their loyalty are going to quit to...???
We didnt even decide what exactly was going to be the free part yet and you've already determined the consequences.
They have reputation for being hanger queens for a reason and even the few devotees to the least used in the game don't exclusively stick to those rides. And like I said, you can use conditions to regulate it any way you want and if one of the regulations was something along the lines of "only X number of free players at a time," then those former paying customers might be locked out, wondering why they chose to fly an I16 exclusively in the MA when they managed to come up with 15 bucks just fine for years.
No I'm not kidding. You're proposing that people get access to the MA for FREE, but can only fly a limitted plane set. If you're a paying customer, why fly a sucky ride? You paid for the TigerII and the Tempest, and Pony so use them. If you could fly around in a P-39, or SkdF(what ever that thing is) for FREE don't you think some would learn to just get good in a suckier ride and save the money? You would win less, but you you'd playing for FREE. Are you guarenteeing that NO one would drop? How many would out 4000 players? ZERO? You don't think there's 100 players who don't log a lot of time, but keep their subscriptions for the when they get a few hour and want to play? You don't think they would say, hey I'll just use the free planes? 100 people is $1500 a month out of HTC pocket. The the monthly payment on a really nice real life Airplane.
Don;t presume to know what 4000 people are going to do when confronted with the choice of FREE stuff. :salute
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If you're a paying customer, why fly a sucky ride? You paid for the TigerII and the Tempest, and Pony so use them.
[/sub]
Why indeed? What does this have to do with the free customers?
You paid for the TigerII and the Tempest, and Pony so use them. If you could fly around in a P-39, or SkdF(what ever that thing is) for FREE don't you think some would learn to just get good in a suckier ride and save the money?
[/sub]
No I don't. I think there would be 4000 subscribing players out there flying ponies and causing endless rants by free customers about cherry picking ponies. Oh what a change that would be. And just like everyone in this game, they would tire of being the punching bag and decide to subscribe for a change of pace even if they did become UBER at a free ride.
Are you guarenteeing that NO one would drop? How many would out 4000 players? ZERO?
[/sub]
No, there's no guarantee no one would drop. There is a guarantee that others would join as a result of being allowed to actually play the game long enough to get past all of the headache of pc, software, and learning curve issues. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of how many.
You don't think there's 100 players who don't log a lot of time, but keep their subscriptions for the when they get a few hour and want to play? You don't think they would say, hey I'll just use the free planes? 100 people is $1500 a month out of HTC pocket. The the monthly payment on a really nice real life Airplane.
[/sub]
No I don't. Why would someone who already by your example pays REGARDLESS of how much they actually play decide that 15 bucks is all of a sudden too much to part with. That makes no sense what so ever.
Save 15 bucks for a "NICE REAL LIFE AIRPLANE?" Seriously, what are you on?
You obviously have a problem with the idea, so what exactly is it that bothers you? What do you see happening that will ruin your breakfast?
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Why indeed? What does this have to do with the free customers?
No I don't. I think there would be 4000 subscribing players out there flying ponies and causing endless rants by free customers about cherry picking ponies. Oh what a change that would be. And just like everyone in this game, they would tire of being the punching bag and decide to subscribe for a change of pace even if they did become UBER at a free ride.
No, there's no guarantee no one would drop. There is a guarantee that others would join as a result of being allowed to actually play the game long enough to get past all of the headache of pc, software, and learning curve issues. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of how many.
No I don't. Why would someone who already by your example pays REGARDLESS of how much they actually play decide that 15 bucks is all of a sudden too much to part with. That makes no sense what so ever.
Save 15 bucks for a "NICE REAL LIFE AIRPLANE?" Seriously, what are you on?
You obviously have a problem with the idea, so what exactly is it that bothers you? What do you see happening that will ruin your breakfast?
[snarking sounding preface omitted]
I don't knwo if this idea is a viable business model, so I don't have "some problem" with it. I am convinced there is significant risk in it, and was surprised that you used the phrase "No down side". I pointed out that the risk is loosing paying customers, and that even 100 customers adds up to big money for HTC.
The $1500 is what HiTech loses when 100 people drop their subscriptions. That's a payment on a nice airplane for him. :salute
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ahh, the nice airplane. Ok I follow ya now.
I don't see one hundred guys quitting over this especially if it is properly regulated so as not to adversely affect paying players any more than you already see in game. Freaks happen. There's no doubt your going to get bad apples but that is a fact no matter what.
I am not even convinced there would be one hundred playing because of the free stuff but it has the potential to bring thousands. Bottom line is that more players benefits everyone whether they are restricted to an I16, C47, and a jeep or allowed a couple of other minor roles. Tankers get lots of practice on an easy targets. Fighters get lots of practice on goons and I16s. During off peak hours things might not get so boring. And I guarantee, some of those free players will get so hooked they will start subscribing. Others will subscribe on occasion.
It's a win/win.
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Unless they're no more than a cash cow for dale to milk dry, I wouldn't want them. The annoyance of the 19 tards, twits, and a-holes aren't worth the 1 who both subscribes and plays with a moticum of respectability.
At best, all this will do is make more hordes (never good under any circumstance) and increase stupidity several fold.
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How did the hanger queens come into this???
I say that F2P should not have any vehicals and aircraft short of transports
Maybe the WWI arena could be free to play........
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How did the hanger queens come into this???
I say that F2P should not have any vehicals and aircraft short of transports
Maybe the WWI arena could be free to play........
They came in because your idea of a low fidelity FPS that would be developed for free and make no profit in itself is asking a lot. Yea it could improve the game all around, but would likely be too big a drain on resources for the benefit in the current climate.
Unless they're no more than a cash cow for dale to milk dry, I wouldn't want them. The annoyance of the 19 tards, twits, and a-holes aren't worth the 1 who both subscribes and plays with a moticum of respectability.
At best, all this will do is make more hordes (never good under any circumstance) and increase stupidity several fold.
You do get the point then. Hordes of guilt free kills, I'm drooling already.
[snarking sounding preface omitted]
Bless you for that btw :lol <S>
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You do get the point then. Hordes of guilt free kills, I'm drooling already.
So the point is to intentionally harm the game?
Many hordes could barely be considered fights as things are. Do you really want to wade through three times as much stupid, ineptitude, and ignorance to get to the few who will actually fight?
The percentage of new players attracted by ftp who don't hurt the game by tying up the server more than their role as cannon fodder helps will likely around .5%.
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So the point is to intentionally harm the game?
Many hordes could barely be considered fights as things are. Do you really want to wade through three times as much stupid, ineptitude, and ignorance to get to the few who will actually fight?
The percentage of new players attracted by ftp who don't hurt the game by tying up the server more than their role as cannon fodder helps will likely around .5%.
Hordes don't hurt the game. Hordes provide what everyone who plays this game wants, including you.
I don't know you or what you want out of this game, but whatever it is, it is provided to you BECAUSE OF THE HORDES. If this game had no hordes it would be what? A single player game where you fly around shooting at drones? Or something like the free eight player AH used to have?
Whatever it would be, HTc wouldn't be in business if it were anything else.
The ability for people to "horde" is what brings many people to this game whether they know it or not. It's what rational and unbiased people call the closest thing to a ww2 dogfight you can find. And because we found this experience that we could only read and dream about 20 years ago, we engage in it and we have fun at it. If you stopped the hordes completely, that's when you will see people leave the game. It will stop being a challenge and stop being fun.
I posted an idea years ago that would change the way the hordes operated, but I would never want to end all potential for hording. Overwhelming odds were a fact in ww2 and should be a part of any good ww2 flight sim.
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Hordes don't hurt the game. Hordes provide what everyone who plays this game wants, including you.
I don't know you or what you want out of this game, but whatever it is, it is provided to you BECAUSE OF THE HORDES. If this game had no hordes it would be what? A single player game where you fly around shooting at drones? Or something like the free eight player AH used to have?
Whatever it would be, HTc wouldn't be in business if it were anything else.
The ability for people to "horde" is what brings many people to this game whether they know it or not. It's what rational and unbiased people call the closest thing to a ww2 dogfight you can find. And because we found this experience that we could only read and dream about 20 years ago, we engage in it and we have fun at it. If you stopped the hordes completely, that's when you will see people leave the game. It will stop being a challenge and stop being fun.
I posted an idea years ago that would change the way the hordes operated, but I would never want to end all potential for hording. Overwhelming odds were a fact in ww2 and should be a part of any good ww2 flight sim.
I believe it is hordes that will kill this game. You can't fight a horde, you can only fly through a number of time picking kills until you have to run with your tail between your legs, or die only to re-up to repeat.
Look at a football game. If one team had all the best players and every game they played they won 55-0 How long would people continue to watch football? Not long.
Even the people in the horde don't realize they are in a horde. Yesterday I was congratulating a Bish horde for capturing another base. I asked them why they needed to horde a port! The answer in PM's was we didn't horde, we only had 10 people. I can post the screen shot that clearly shows 23 at the time of capture. How many lemmings died before the goon dropped? The leader of the mission hadn't a clue as to how many people he had in his mission? And they had to run it NOE on top of that! How sad is that?
No, if you run 10-15 guys in a co-ordinated strike it is not a horde, 25 or more NOE dweebs flattening everything like locust is. In war over whelming numbers is a plus as it is life or death. In a game all side should have a reasonable chance to win. Hordes take that chance away.
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I believe it is hordes that will kill this game. You can't fight a horde, you can only fly through a number of time picking kills until you have to run with your tail between your legs, or die only to re-up to repeat.
Look at a football game. If one team had all the best players and every game they played they won 55-0 How long would people continue to watch football? Not long.
Even the people in the horde don't realize they are in a horde. Yesterday I was congratulating a Bish horde for capturing another base. I asked them why they needed to horde a port! The answer in PM's was we didn't horde, we only had 10 people. I can post the screen shot that clearly shows 23 at the time of capture. How many lemmings died before the goon dropped? The leader of the mission hadn't a clue as to how many people he had in his mission? And they had to run it NOE on top of that! How sad is that?
No, if you run 10-15 guys in a co-ordinated strike it is not a horde, 25 or more NOE dweebs flattening everything like locust is. In war over whelming numbers is a plus as it is life or death. In a game all side should have a reasonable chance to win. Hordes take that chance away.
It's not the horde's fault you can't get an even number of people from your country to stand up against them. It's also not their fault that, even if you could, that you can't work well enough as a team together to defeat them.
It's been a couple years since I played, but I doubt anything has changed. So what base was your countries horde at? I seem to remember, and being one who side-switched a lot to look for the underdog country to find the most action, that it didnt matter what the country player count was, there was always a mass of each country that was hording a base. Often times your horde chose not to oppose their horde for whatever reason.
And the fact is, that a lot of the times (I would say most of) it was just a matter of mistaken interpretation of the situation. What you call a horde was a lot of times the result of a few or a lot of very talented players coming into the fight and cleaning house. What's left is what you call a "horde" and a lot of dead and frustrated players who CHOSE to go somewhere else rather than keep getting beat up on.
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Hordes don't hurt the game. Hordes provide what everyone who plays this game wants, including you.
I don't know you or what you want out of this game, but whatever it is, it is provided to you BECAUSE OF THE HORDES. If this game had no hordes it would be what? A single player game where you fly around shooting at drones? Or something like the free eight player AH used to have?
Whatever it would be, HTc wouldn't be in business if it were anything else.
The ability for people to "horde" is what brings many people to this game whether they know it or not. It's what rational and unbiased people call the closest thing to a ww2 dogfight you can find. And because we found this experience that we could only read and dream about 20 years ago, we engage in it and we have fun at it. If you stopped the hordes completely, that's when you will see people leave the game. It will stop being a challenge and stop being fun.
I posted an idea years ago that would change the way the hordes operated, but I would never want to end all potential for hording. Overwhelming odds were a fact in ww2 and should be a part of any good ww2 flight sim.
I want spontaneous fights with good pilots where we can let things play out to the end, with whoever flew better getting to go do it some more.
I've never found that in an actual horde. Best place to find it is on the fringes of the combat. Go to a base thats flashed by a lone con, and you'll have better odds of finding that type of fight than you would in a horde. Why? Because the type of pilot who also wants to fight things out to the end, without calling for 20 guys to come finish things for him, generally isn't drawn to the horde, since the horde interupts.
Sure, they may have started as a fight between good pilots, but it never stays that way. Idiots and the skilless flock to them. That stage can still be fun, but is short lived. After that, the horde starts interupting as more mid-level pilots join in to slay noobs, and see how long they can last against the vets. Vets get tired of having to break off, and then re-engage, or just have to log off, and soon all thats left is a mass of retardation.
Finally, more idiots in the arena will most certianly shorten the fun phase of a horde.
Since about '09, only times I flew with the horde was when one of my favorite maps was in danger of being rolled, and when only a few squadies or friends were on and wanting to capture bases. If there were more than about 5, and we wanted to capture bases, we went out and did it ourselves.
Asside from that, mostly I just winged up with Devil5O5 in 109F's.
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I want spontaneous fights with good pilots where we can let things play out to the end, with whoever flew better getting to go do it some more.
So what you're saying is, you want to fly in an arena with lots of fights going on but you don't want to be a part of the "furball." And if you pick ONE enemy out of the dozens of planes flying around you want all the rest of them to automatically stay out of your "spontaneous" fight?
Should we make a rule, everybody should fly around in one big furball but all fights are 1v1, no interruptions? That's so spontaneous. AH has something similar to that, it's called KOTH. Or you can go to the DA and often times find a bunch of guys flying around at a private field with those EXACT rules. Everyone flys around until two people find an opponent that isn't fighting.
I've never found that in an actual horde. Best place to find it is on the fringes of the combat. Go to a base thats flashed by a lone con, and you'll have better odds of finding that type of fight than you would in a horde. Why? Because the type of pilot who also wants to fight things out to the end, without calling for 20 guys to come finish things for him, generally isn't drawn to the horde, since the horde interupts.
So you really expected to fly into a furball and find a 1v1 fight.
If the best place to find those kind of fights is on the fringe of combat, why don't you just do that? It sounds like you know how to find what you're looking for. I'll tell you why, because you are too impatient. You want it all to go your way when and how you want. When you win it's GREAT, when you lose it's the hordes fault. You want something that is not possible because you don't clearly understand how your idea of fun would ruin YOUR GAME if you got it. Ask just about any of the muppets how many people join those private field duels on average. Not many, because it's fun, but NOT AS FUN as the MA.
The bottom line is, nobody likes to get shot down and when they do some of them become emotional and irrational. Then they come to the boards to vent about how ridiculous the hordes are. There are dozens of them chiming in here and making the same complaints but I don't see any of you getting together every day when you log in and having private 1v1's in the DA. Why is that? There are so many of you out there.
I seem to recall that there are even player moderated arenas now, why isn't there a bunch of guys doing this according to these 1v1 rules? I'll tell you why, because what you think you want doesn't work. It's not that fun. It's been done and I am sure is still being done on a regular basis in the DA, but it gets boring and every one of them go back to the MA where the real fun is.
Finally, more idiots in the arena will most certianly shorten the fun phase of a horde.
You have no business calling any free players idiotic considering your comments. There would likely be the same percentage of retardedness in free players as there are in paying players.
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It's not the horde's fault you can't get an even number of people from your country to stand up against them. It's also not their fault that, even if you could, that you can't work well enough as a team together to defeat them.
It's been a couple years since I played, but I doubt anything has changed. So what base was your countries horde at? I seem to remember, and being one who side-switched a lot to look for the underdog country to find the most action, that it didnt matter what the country player count was, there was always a mass of each country that was hording a base. Often times your horde chose not to oppose their horde for whatever reason.
And the fact is, that a lot of the times (I would say most of) it was just a matter of mistaken interpretation of the situation. What you call a horde was a lot of times the result of a few or a lot of very talented players coming into the fight and cleaning house. What's left is what you call a "horde" and a lot of dead and frustrated players who CHOSE to go somewhere else rather than keep getting beat up on.
The bolded line is my favorite line in all this. What it says to me is the person wrote it doesn't have a clue as to what he is talking about. Case in point, When I played hockey we didn't have all these "prim a donnas" to worry about and coddle on our teams. We just went into the corner with everything we had and the last guy standing put the puck in the net. Sure it's the same game with basically the same rules, but it is played very differently.
In the port mission I mentioned about I saw a the port flashing, I jumped to that base to see what was up and was it worth a trip over. I saw a couple of F6's trying to take out the VH, and dar. I figured that maybe there was a CV near by and a few enterprising guys were going to try a sneak in and grab the port. I upped from the nearest field and climbed to 5K as I buzzed on over. Im the few minutes it took me to get half way, the dar bar filled, the VH was down a guys in the tower were calling out the goon was close. I dove in killed the goon (but he had already dropped) and I blasted out with a half dozen hogs chasing which soon caught and dispatched my poor little G2. 3 minutes later they were gone, to up someplace else in the next NOE where nobody could catch them.
Yes I got a kill, but there was no fight. They captured a base, but there was no challenge. They dropped bombs and destroyed object... as well as creating 30-40 craters as there was wayyyyyy more ord brought than was needed for 3 ports.
Even grabbing 10 guys for defense might have turned the tables but I doubt you or any body could call and get 10 guys to drop what they are doing to defend. Why? because it just isn't fun. I don't care how hard core you are, upping from a capped field more than a few times is stupid, as all your doing is padding someone score, and your not defending anything. Upping from a close field and running in quick doesn't work either as these Hordes are very good. They come in and roll a field in minutes!
So what does that leave us with in the game?
1. Join the horde, maybe you'll be one of the first in and your bombs will be useful.
2. GV... or should we say spawn camp, or get camped.
3. avoid the horde and make your own fun. These players are the back bone of this game, unfortunately there are fewer and fewer.
Have you looked at the scores lately? A couple years ago if you didn't capture a base in a goon your rank was tied with all those other players who didn't and that number was in the 4000 area. Now a days its under 2000. That either means a lot more people are capturing bases in goons, or the base number of players is dropping. We use to have over 600 players prime time, so many they split the arenas. Today its around 300-400, and no the players aren't in the EW or Mw arenas.
Whats this tells us, subscriptions are dropping. Why? Maybe it's because of the economy, but I'm thinking people are bored and so move on to another game. If you don't get into this game, and I really mean get into it, learn all the in's and out's of fighting and the different planes and vehicles. If all you do is to up a heavy fighter, firewall the throttle, click on the auto level at 400 feet while pointed at the base your sneaking up on with 30-40 of your "friends", pop up drop bombs and pray the troops make it in before more than a few guys show up to defend, then how long until you get bored with doing that? If that is the "be all and end all" of your experience with this game I'm surprised people last more than a couple months.
I'm curious "Muzik" why did you leave? Money, or were you just bored? Even picking "lemmings" in the horde is boring. I am so thankful for those players who use small groups to pick fights while trying to take bases. These are the guys I like to hang around with. Win or lose, it's always fun.
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So what you're saying is, you want to fly in an arena with lots of fights going on but you don't want to be a part of the "furball." And if you pick ONE enemy out of the dozens of planes flying around you want all the rest of them to automatically stay out of your "spontaneous" fight?
Should we make a rule, everybody should fly around in one big furball but all fights are 1v1, no interruptions? That's so spontaneous. AH has something similar to that, it's called KOTH. Or you can go to the DA and often times find a bunch of guys flying around at a private field with those EXACT rules. Everyone flys around until two people find an opponent that isn't fighting.
Furballs are fun. You could call the early stages of a horde a furball, and that's essentially what it is. I don't expect a 1v1 in there, but I would enjoy it.
But hordes are not fun. Why? Its easy to slay lemmings, like CoD easy. But that gets boring fast. If you maneuver fight in a horde, you die, especially in a K4. That leaves E fighting vets as the other option. Here we run into the same problems with slaying lemmings: it gets old fast.
As to your excessively sarcastic suggestion about rules, that's not at all what I'm saying or want.
Ideally we would have a lot more, but smaller groups dispersed over the map. Fights would be abundant, but not so large that they stagnate and preclude skill from overcoming numbers.
But no, you want to dilute the skilled player to lemming ratio even further. I really don't understand your desire to fight enemies who might very well be easier to kill than the offline mission bots.
So you really expected to fly into a furball and find a 1v1 fight.
No, don't put words in my mouth.
If the best place to find those kind of fights is on the fringe of combat, why don't you just do that? It sounds like you know how to find what you're looking for. I'll tell you why, because you are too impatient. You want it all to go your way when and how you want. When you win it's GREAT, when you lose it's the hordes fault. You want something that is not possible because you don't clearly understand how your idea of fun would ruin YOUR GAME if you got it. Ask just about any of the muppets how many people join those private field duels on average. Not many, because it's fun, but NOT AS FUN as the MA.
I don't want more witless newbs with CoD level mentality and social skills because it would make finding those good fights harder. Its easy enough to find hordes, there's a big red line that follows them on your clipboard map.
You obviously lack a basic understanding of how increasing numbers will affect dispersion.
Anyway, efforts should revolve around making it easier for the other half of AH to find fights they enjoy.
The bottom line is, nobody likes to get shot down and when they do some of them become emotional and irrational. Then they come to the boards to vent about how ridiculous the hordes are. There are dozens of them chiming in here and making the same complaints but I don't see any of you getting together every day when you log in and having private 1v1's in the DA. Why is that? There are so many of you out there.
If my opponent flew better than me, and earned his kill with skill, I'm perfectly happy to be shot down. And that's something you seem to not understand. The outcome of the fight is entirely irrelevant for a fair number of people. What they care about is how hard they had to work for the kill, or how hard they made their opponent work.
I seem to recall that there are even player moderated arenas now, why isn't there a bunch of guys doing this according to these 1v1 rules? I'll tell you why, because what you think you want doesn't work. It's not that fun. It's been done and I am sure is still being done on a regular basis in the DA, but it gets boring and every one of them go back to the MA where the real fun is.
I could ask the same of your group. Considering many who think like me have been doing this since AW, I think we have seniority. Also, you don't care if you do the same thing over and over, while we do.
Both say you should move, not us.
As to the DA thing, it gets predictable. You don't care, you move.
You have no business calling any free players idiotic considering your comments. There would likely be the same percentage of retardedness in free players as there are in paying players.
If they fly and play like idiots, I get to call them idiots. And unless they bring in more money than paying players, the paying players are far far more important as community members.
And they most certainly would be dumber on average. Or at least less mature and rational. FTP has more kids, because its free. That means more annoying spamming, trolling, and retardation per capita.
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The bolded line is my favorite line in all this. What it says to me is the person wrote it doesn't have a clue as to what he is talking about.
Nothing in this game has changed so significantly that I can't understand exactly what is going on in game.
In the port mission I mentioned about I saw...
So what you are saying is you single handedly attacked a horde took some pot shots and ran from the pissed off horde. You mistakenly thought you were going to attack 2 f6s and forgot the hundreds of times when you had upped to go after one or two, just to find when you got there a lot more enemy had showed up. But your lack of foresight is the hordes fault.
Even grabbing 10 guys for defense...
Hey, I'm not saying the way things are is right or perfect. I have many ideas on how to change the conditions of the hordes, but as I said when you were complaining about the hordes over two years ago, they are not the problem, the game set up is.
Insignificant numbers and stats deleted ...subscriptions are dropping. Why? Maybe it's because of the economy, but I'm thinking people are bored and so move on to another game.
We are still in the middle of the worst recession since the great depression. It is not going away any time soon despite what little optimistic news you see or how stable your job is. It has an effect.
If you don't get into this game, and I really mean get into it... If all you do is to up a heavy fighter... then how long until you get bored with doing that? If that is the "be all and end all" of your experience with this game I'm surprised people last more than a couple months.
You just proved my point. It takes a long time to REALLY get into this game. So free access to this game for much longer than two weeks is needed to allow people to get a real feel for the game. And you are throwing in "heavy fighters" to make your argument when I clearly said hanger queens like I16s were free, not fully loaded Jugs. And again you make my point. How long do you think people are going to fly I16s until they get bored with them and be forced to subscribe to get more access?
You are the one insisting that the free players are guaranteed to horde so why would they keep playing free if they cant join the horde other than to fly I16s?
I'm curious "Muzik" why did you leave? Money, or were you just bored? Even picking "lemmings" in the horde is boring. I am so thankful for those players who use small groups to pick fights while trying to take bases. These are the guys I like to hang around with. Win or lose, it's always fun.
I left because I played the game more than I should and because I had other things that I wanted to do. This game structure has not significantly changed since Air Warrior and the "hordes" have not changed their behavior either, they have only grown in size with bigger servers. Your boredom has nothing to do with the horde and everything to do with the lack of real changes in the game.
As to your excessively sarcastic suggestion about rules, that's not at all what I'm saying or want.
That's exactly what you are asking for. A horde to you is a group that is too overwhelming to fight and survive realistically, so you want a way to limit the numbers in a horde so that fights are more balanced because you are looking for that one perfect fight MORE OFTEN. You aren't happy with those perfect fights happening naturally, you want them to be predictable, controllable and if you get jumped then it's the hordes fault not yours for that.
Let me tell you, I proposed an idea in the wishlist years ago to limit the number of uppers at a base for much the same reason. And I still agree with you that it should be done, but not ONLY to control hordes, but to make the game more strategic and to change the way the game is played to some degree. The perfect fights may become more frequent this way, but we should NEVER eliminate the possibility of a horde.
But no, you want to dilute the skilled player to lemming ratio even further. I really don't understand your desire to fight enemies who might very well be easier to kill than the offline mission bots.
I don't want more witless newbs with CoD level mentality and social skills because it would make finding those good fights harder. Its easy enough to find hordes, there's a big red line that follows them on your clipboard map.
You obviously lack a basic understanding of how increasing numbers will affect dispersion.
I don't want to dilute anything and you are the one who lacks understanding of human nature. Statistics don't lie, and the fact that you keep calling an entire group of people whom you have never met, lemmings, idiots, witless newbs and whatever other garbage coming through your keyboard tells me that your intelligence is debatable. There will be a percentage of them who cause trouble and there will be those who wont. If there were statistics out there that told us how many have come through AH fit these categories they would be similar.
If my opponent flew better than me, and earned his kill with skill, I'm perfectly happy to be shot down. And that's something you seem to not understand. The outcome of the fight is entirely irrelevant for a fair number of people. What they care about is how hard they had to work for the kill, or how hard they made their opponent work.
And this is more baloney. If this were true, then like I said, why aren't all of these guys in their own arena or in the DA? Because there is more to this game than just the fight. No one is forcing them to play in the MA. No one is suggesting that they find their own arena either. If the majority of these people wanted what you wanted, there would be some informal rules passed along by word of mouth just like there were in the DA.
I could ask the same of your group. Considering many who think like me have been doing this since AW, I think we have seniority. Also, you don't care if you do the same thing over and over, while we do.
Both say you should move, not us.
As to the DA thing, it gets predictable. You don't care, you move.
The reason I don't go is because the people who agree with me are in the MA, I am not the minority, you are. If the hordes disgusted them that much they would go else where. If they wanted to fly and fight the way you want to, they would go to the DA and create special rules. And they do, but most of the time they can't get anyone to go because nobody really want's what you want. And after a while in the DA, they get bored and go back to the hordes.
It's obvious, the proof is right in front of you every day yet here you are complaining and calling other people idiots when you can't see the truth.
Everyone has some frustration with the hordes, but not everyone thinks they are the cause of their frustration. Many people take responsibility for their own bad choices.
The game can be changed slightly, but if you try to take hordes away completely it will ruin the game by taking away the big bad antagonist. Just like your favorite movie, there always has to be a bad guy that makes you want to see how it turns out. Take the bad guy out of the story and it gets dull and uninteresting. The better the bad guy, the better the movie.
You can think of the MA hordes like a bad girlfriend, you want to leave, but the chicken's too good to let go.
And the point that BOTH of you keep trying to make, you have no evidence to back up. You both keep accusing an entire population of players of being hording idiots and they haven't even joined the game yet. BRILLIANT :rolleyes:
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Muzik, I have had this discussion many times over the years with many players, and you know what the one thing all of those players who stand on your side of the fence have in common.... most of them no longer play the game, like you.
I know the economy is bad, I was laid off Dec 7.... another reason to remember that day... but I will continue to send HTC my money as long as I can. I have NEVER stopped sending money to them for over 11 years. Before that it was Gamestorm and Air Warrior. This game has everything it needs to be a great strategic, tactical war game. Unfortunately unlike the old days, players don't join to "pretend" to be WWII pilots, now it is more along the line of a goal orientated game. Win the War!!! Add "free players" and all they are going to do is try to win the war like the "hordes" do now. Adding more people is only going to increase the hordes. Nothing in the game is geared to breaking up the hordes, adding free players isn't going to fix it.
Until the horde issue is fixed adding people is only going to make the revolving door of subscriptions spin faster.
As you don't play any more how could you possibly understand how I play, where I play, what my expectations are? You can't even follow my comments. I did say when I saw the 2 F6's that I was hoping it was a small enterprising group looking to grab the port. I also said these are the type of fights I look for and those are the type of players I like to play with. Instead of understanding what I was looking for and hoping to find as I do many times you blamed my lack of foresight as the problem and not the horde. After finding a horde I did the best I could, trying to kill off the goon before he dropped giving my team time to maybe launch a defense, which we all know that once you kill a few the other crash or run and they call the "mission" a bust because they have no real skill in playing the game other than overwhellming numbers.
An extra 30 guys in I16s isn't going to make that situation better. Sure some pickers will grab them selves a few easy kills, but again the challenge is gone. Remember the football team that never loses? Whats the point? Freeplay isn't the way to go.
You want players to join up, and stay? TEACH THEM! Teach them whats available, teach them how to use it, teach them how to play other than just racing to "win the war". Too many kids running too many "clans" and sticking to the old tried and true "get 30 guys to up heavy fighters, fly NOE to target and hope enough guys hit something to get the town white flagged and the troops get in.
Yes we need more people to play, but we need the "right" people. We need people looking to learn how to play all facets of this game. We need players who when they build a squad "lead" that squad, not just run with the horde. Gone are the great nights of flying for hours on end banging heads with certain squads. Instead we get players logging on talking crap about how good they are until people either just log off, or report them. Yup we certainly need more of those adolescents. They don''t have to pay to play so there is no consequence for their stupidity. We need people that are going to bring positives to the game and community, not more crap.
When you pay for something you respect it a bit more, you value it a bit more, unless of course "Mommy" is the one paying for it. We don't need Free to Play.
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Muzik, you don't know what I want. Quite clearly you don't.
I don't want structured fights, I want to be able to bump into a good stick at least once a day of playing, which wasn't happening when I left.
I want to see more skilled play, instead of hordes trying to take bases with every 3rd guy lawndarting on the bomb run.
I want to ENCOURAGE smaller groups, so fights will be smaller but more common. Nobody would have problems finding fights, teamwork is present, skill is more important than numbers, and base takers can still take bases.
The only group who is disadvantaged are those who want to take bases without any real fighting, which is against the focus of the game.
Also, its easier for your group to move, the group I support was here first, and it would require constant setup for our group to go to a player-created arena.... but there's more of you.
I really don't get your logic. Really seems like you're trying to make a nuisance of yourself.
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This game has everything it needs to be a great strategic, tactical war game. Unfortunately unlike the old days, players don't join to "pretend" to be WWII pilots, now it is more along the line of a goal orientated game. Win the War!!! Add "free players" and all they are going to do is try to win the war like the "hordes" do now. Adding more people is only going to increase the hordes. Nothing in the game is geared to breaking up the hordes, adding free players isn't going to fix it.
Yes we need more people to play, but we need the "right" people. We need people looking to learn how to play all facets of this game. We need players who when they build a squad "lead" that squad, not just run with the horde. Gone are the great nights of flying for hours on end banging heads with certain squads. Instead we get players logging on talking crap about how good they are until people either just log off, or report them. Yup we certainly need more of those adolescents. They don''t have to pay to play so there is no consequence for their stupidity. We need people that are going to bring positives to the game and community, not more crap.
When you pay for something you respect it a bit more, you value it a bit more, unless of course "Mommy" is the one paying for it. We don't need Free to Play.
I agree with you to a degree.. I've been playing this type of game off and on since 1995.. i remmber hitech flying the first b17 in the confirmed kill beta arena. I have fully taken the transition from noob to hordlet to lone wolf. the only thing I know, is some people are better at this game than others, and everyone else needs to find something fun to do, or just squealing quit already.
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everyone else needs to find something fun to do, or just squealing quit already.
Why do you have to be so concise?
.... most of them no longer play the game, like you.
My not being there has more to do with split arenas than hordes, but even that is a stretch.
This game has everything it needs to be a great strategic, tactical war game.
Except the right controls in place.
Unfortunately unlike the old days, players don't join to "pretend" to be WWII pilots, now it is more along the line of a goal orientated game.
Agreed. Because of the rules.
Add "free players" and all they are going to do is try to win the war like the "hordes" do now. Adding more people is only going to increase the hordes. Nothing in the game is geared to breaking up the hordes, adding free players isn't going to fix it.
Agreed, Agreed, Agreed...because this is how the game is designed to play out, hence the RULES comment. And hordes did the same thing in AW, they were just a little smaller.
Until the horde issue is fixed adding people is only going to make the revolving door of subscriptions spin faster.
Disagreed, misconception. If they aren't leaving because of the hordes now they aren't going to do it later and again statistically there will be the same amount of hordlets and troublemakers in the free group but there will be some that won't be able to resist subscribing.
As you don't play any more how could you possibly understand how I play, where I play, what my expectations are? You can't even follow my comments.
I have played this game off and on for 15 years, that's how I know and understand. And your comments were crystal clear, I followed every word. Your response was because i did exactly what you and Tank were doing, WAY over generalizing and drawing false indefensible conclusions. I have complete confidence you didn't really go in there without any clue that you might get jumped. But you still complained about it as if you had. You have played long enough to know to expect those things. But still again, you can't blame the horde for you being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
An extra 30 guys in I16s isn't going to make that situation better.
Glad you came up with a number. Is 30 guys really going to hurt the game that much? There were thousands more playing before, but 30 more will destroy the game?
Sure some pickers will grab them selves a few easy kills, but again the challenge is gone. Remember the football team that never loses? Whats the point?
Easy, guilt free kills. And again, the challenge isn't any different. There are still thousands of paying players with better equipment and the challenge is gone when you do the same thing for 15 years and don't develop new challenges. Ask any 40 year old pro athlete if they still have the passion they had when they were 20. Face it, we are getting old and 10+ years is a long time to play a game. The point is to bring in new players.
You want players to join up, and stay? TEACH THEM!
There's already a training corps and that doesn't change anything when they teach them to PLAY BY THE RULES THAT ARE IN PLACE.
Yes we need more people to play, but we need the "right" people.
You need to quit being so pessimistic and trust that those who are drawn to this game, whether it's free or not, are those that have an interest in WW2 aviation and a desire to experience a fantasy just like everyone else in this game. Some don't take it as serious as we would like, but neither did all ww2 pilots. To some it was a naive fantasy until they got in and realized that war is still dangerous in the air. You can't change human nature no matter how much you complain. You can change the rules of the game.
When you pay for something you respect it a bit more, you value it a bit more, unless of course "Mommy" is the one paying for it. We don't need Free to Play.
So if Hitechs kid was old enough to play now, it's safe to say you wouldn't approve. I agree, when you pay you respect it more. But there are those who have payed for this game and don't respect it at all. You have a preconceived notion of what the free players will be like and no evidence to back it up. If you love the game so much, then why aren't you open to trying anything and everything that might benefit the game and you?
Tell you what, I'm getting bored with this argument, why don't we just agree that you will give it a shot AFTER Htc, changes the rules to see if the horde changes its stripes a bit.
Muzik, you don't know what I want. Quite clearly you don't.
I don't want structured fights, I want to be able to bump into a good stick at least once a day of playing, which wasn't happening when I left.
I want to see more skilled play, instead of hordes trying to take bases with every 3rd guy lawndarting on the bomb run.
I want to ENCOURAGE smaller groups, so fights will be smaller but more common. Nobody would have problems finding fights, teamwork is present, skill is more important than numbers, and base takers can still take bases.
The only group who is disadvantaged are those who want to take bases without any real fighting, which is against the focus of the game.
Also, its easier for your group to move, the group I support was here first, and it would require constant setup for our group to go to a player-created arena.... but there's more of you.
I really don't get your logic. Really seems like you're trying to make a nuisance of yourself.
I get the impression that I have played these games years longer than you Tank but regardless, I've been there and done that. There is nothing you have stated that you want that I haven't also felt. I grew and evolved out of those initial frustrations to realize there are certain things that you have to adapt to. If you have been listening you would see I agree that the hordes are sometimes out of control. What you don't want to accept is that if you stop hording, the game takes on a completely different dynamic and will be even more boring.
As for finding more "skilled" play. I wager there is more skill at play in the game than you can handle.
You weren't here first. If people like you outnumber people like me, then where are the hordes coming from? The hordes were here long before you came along.
Your the one complaining, but I'm being a nuisance? :confused:
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Since 06 to late 2011. Been off for a bit over a year and a half. If I had to guess, I'd put you at maybe a bit more than 7 years in game, all totaled.
You don't seem to get that I would like the game to get away from mindless horde fights, and using numbers in place of competence. Sure, keep the horde.... just cut the size in half or put 2/3 in bombers at 30k on start runs.
Just so long as the hordes are small enough that players have to improve as individuals if a small group of vets defends.
Also, only somewhere between 1/3rd and 1/5th were better than me individually. Sure I would occasionally meet someone with 'more skill than I could handle', but for the most part, I might as well have been clubbing seals if I got one alone.
Considering I was a GVer flying an F4, that doesn't argue any great talent on part of the garden variety lemming.
Group I support ("let's try to have fights instead of trying to preempt them with hordes" mentality group) was here first, even if I personally wasn't. Your group oytnumbers mine, but so what?
And yes, you are being a nuisance. You're advocating worsening something you'very already admitted to be problematic.
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Agreed. Because of the rules.
It has nothing to do with the rules, it had everything to do with todays players. Most of today's players know very little history and so it doesn't factor in to how they play this game. Most of todays players would be ok if this was spaceships and lazer tanks and would play the game the same way, nothing would change for them.
Agreed, Agreed, Agreed...because this is how the game is designed to play out, hence the RULES comment. And hordes did the same thing in AW, they were just a little smaller.
It has nothing to do with how the game was designed. Aw was the same. The problem stems for people looking for a way around those rules instead of just playing with in the framework available. Use the football analogy again. Even with a cap, if the best players in the world took the "pay cut" :rolleyes: They could all get on the same team and completely dominate all the other teams. There are no rules saying they couldn't. Luckily greed is more important to most of these guys that records. Can you image what the football seasons would look like if the same team, same guys, won the Super Bowl 5, 6, 7 years in a row? It would kill football, but it is possible to do it. Yes we have always had horde, but not as bad as we have now, nor not as big as we have now.
Disagreed, misconception. If they aren't leaving because of the hordes now they aren't going to do it later and again statistically there will be the same amount of hordlets and troublemakers in the free group but there will be some that won't be able to resist subscribing.
Thats what I'm saying. I don't know the numbers, but it looks like the "incoming" isn't keeping up with the "out going" and this is just by attendance numbers. You allow F2P players in and you will increase that number of players coming in, but you'll increase those going out faster, hence the quicker revolving door.
I have played this game off and on for 15 years, that's how I know and understand. And your comments were crystal clear, I followed every word. Your response was because i did exactly what you and Tank were doing, WAY over generalizing and drawing false indefensible conclusions. I have complete confidence you didn't really go in there without any clue that you might get jumped. But you still complained about it as if you had. You have played long enough to know to expect those things. But still again, you can't blame the horde for you being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I didn't blame the horde for anything. Yes I choose to go there, EVEN AFTER the dar bar exploded, because I was playing a game and like I said hoped to get the goon before he dropped. And NO I did NOT go in thinking I might get jumped by a horde because you can find these little fights often if you look for them, but you wouldn't know that as you haven't played for years. They only thing I blame the horde on is dumbing down the game play in the main arenas.
Glad you came up with a number. Is 30 guys really going to hurt the game that much? There were thousands more playing before, but 30 more will destroy the game?
Sure will, another group of 30 skill less players is another horde
Easy, guilt free kills. And again, the challenge isn't any different. There are still thousands of paying players with better equipment and the challenge is gone when you do the same thing for 15 years and don't develop new challenges. Ask any 40 year old pro athlete if they still have the passion they had when they were 20. Face it, we are getting old and 10+ years is a long time to play a game. The point is to bring in new players.
I've been playing for over 13 years in these types of games, and I still find challenges each time I fly. If I didn't I'd have called it quits long ago. But that is the differance, where I look for challenges and try to over come them, today's players seem to try to avoid them. It is much easier after all, you don't have to "waist" all the training time :rolleyes:
There's already a training corps and that doesn't change anything when they teach them to PLAY BY THE RULES THAT ARE IN PLACE.
And they are completely under used. The ones that do seek out a trainer are the good players. I don't mean they become the top guns, of that they are at the top of the scoreboard, but they are the type of players everyone has fun with. They know the history a bit, and they play the game as it was meant to be played, as a war game with combat.
You need to quit being so pessimistic and trust that those who are drawn to this game, whether it's free or not, are those that have an interest in WW2 aviation and a desire to experience a fantasy just like everyone else in this game. Some don't take it as serious as we would like, but neither did all ww2 pilots. To some it was a naive fantasy until they got in and realized that war is still dangerous in the air. You can't change human nature no matter how much you complain. You can change the rules of the game.
So if Hitechs kid was old enough to play now, it's safe to say you wouldn't approve. I agree, when you pay you respect it more. But there are those who have payed for this game and don't respect it at all. You have a preconceived notion of what the free players will be like and no evidence to back it up. If you love the game so much, then why aren't you open to trying anything and everything that might benefit the game and you?
Tell you what, I'm getting bored with this argument, why don't we just agree that you will give it a shot AFTER Htc, changes the rules to see if the horde changes its stripes a bit.
I hope and pray that HTC WILL change the rules to curb the hordes. I hope that one day we will have squad nights that have squad battles for a base, may the better TEAM win, not the BIGGEST.
I have no problem with kids playing the game, as long as they play the game as it was meant to be played. This isn't CoD, or WoW. Leroy Jenkins type player need not apply. I welcome anyone who is willing to learn, and to fight. PERIOD, after all isn't that what the games all about.
"Aces High takes the art and science of vintage WW1 and WW2 air combat and sets it in a high intensity online multiplayer environment. Hundreds of players simultaneously battle it out against each other in massive aerial dogfights and bomber raids. "
Quoted from the front page, seems like there is suppose to be fighting going on here, not hiding and avoiding.
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It has nothing to do with the rules, it had everything to do with todays players. Most of today's players know very little history and so it doesn't factor in to how they play this game. Most of todays players would be ok if this was spaceships and lazer tanks and would play the game the same way, nothing would change for them.
It has nothing to do with how the game was designed. Aw was the same. The problem stems for people looking for a way around those rules instead of just playing with in the framework available. Use the football analogy again. Even with a cap, if the best players in the world took the "pay cut" :rolleyes: They could all get on the same team and completely dominate all the other teams. There are no rules saying they couldn't. Luckily greed is more important to most of these guys that records. Can you image what the football seasons would look like if the same team, same guys, won the Super Bowl 5, 6, 7 years in a row? It would kill football, but it is possible to do it. Yes we have always had horde, but not as bad as we have now, nor not as big as we have now.
Thats what I'm saying. I don't know the numbers, but it looks like the "incoming" isn't keeping up with the "out going" and this is just by attendance numbers. You allow F2P players in and you will increase that number of players coming in, but you'll increase those going out faster, hence the quicker revolving door.
I didn't blame the horde for anything. Yes I choose to go there, EVEN AFTER the dar bar exploded, because I was playing a game and like I said hoped to get the goon before he dropped. And NO I did NOT go in thinking I might get jumped by a horde because you can find these little fights often if you look for them, but you wouldn't know that as you haven't played for years. They only thing I blame the horde on is dumbing down the game play in the main arenas.
Sure will, another group of 30 skill less players is another horde
I've been playing for over 13 years in these types of games, and I still find challenges each time I fly. If I didn't I'd have called it quits long ago. But that is the differance, where I look for challenges and try to over come them, today's players seem to try to avoid them. It is much easier after all, you don't have to "waist" all the training time :rolleyes:
And they are completely under used. The ones that do seek out a trainer are the good players. I don't mean they become the top guns, of that they are at the top of the scoreboard, but they are the type of players everyone has fun with. They know the history a bit, and they play the game as it was meant to be played, as a war game with combat.
I hope and pray that HTC WILL change the rules to curb the hordes. I hope that one day we will have squad nights that have squad battles for a base, may the better TEAM win, not the BIGGEST.
I have no problem with kids playing the game, as long as they play the game as it was meant to be played. This isn't CoD, or WoW. Leroy Jenkins type player need not apply. I welcome anyone who is willing to learn, and to fight. PERIOD, after all isn't that what the games all about.
"Aces High takes the art and science of vintage WW1 and WW2 air combat and sets it in a high intensity online multiplayer environment. Hundreds of players simultaneously battle it out against each other in massive aerial dogfights and bomber raids. "
Quoted from the front page, seems like there is suppose to be fighting going on here, not hiding and avoiding.
It has everything to do with the rules. You cannot and will never get people to play any differently as long as what they are doing is not regulated somehow.
For the last time, people haven't changed since AW, what has happened is that the few people who engaged in the kind of behavior you are complaining about, grew into a large group proportional to the total of each era. You didn't notice it as much in AW because there were only 200 people at peak times. And if I remember correctly, there were base caps during some of those years. Which is one of the things I have suggested they institute in AH to regulate the hording.
I was there. I saw it. There were small hordes smashing bases, the majority of the action was centered around one or two bases, and I silently complained about getting ganged MANY times. Don't try to tell me it didn't happen. I flew spitfires for some months after I started. I complained about cherry picking pony's and FW's. NOTHING has changed except the scale of the complaints.
You keep saying they look for a way around the "rules," THERE ARE NO RULES against NOE raids or hording nor should there be. They don't have to look for ways around anything. And last of all, your belief that anyone in this game would be just as happy playing space ships and lazer tanks is a ridiculous generalization that borders on retardednes. There may be a few, but my experience is that 95% of the population are here because of an interest in WW2 aviation or aviation in general. Just because they don't agree with how YOU want the game to be played doesn't give any credibility to your misconceptions.
There's an old quote you should remember, "with our thoughts, we make our world." This problem as you call it, is bigger for you because you make it bigger.
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no, buy COD if you want a FPS
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no, buy COD if you want a jerk circle for 12 year olds
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It has everything to do with the rules. You cannot and will never get people to play any differently as long as what they are doing is not regulated somehow.
Of course you won't, not now. Rules WILL have to be added. To guide the "gamers" back to playing the game, the WHOLE game.
For the last time, people haven't changed since AW, what has happened is that the few people who engaged in the kind of behavior you are complaining about, grew into a large group proportional to the total of each era. You didn't notice it as much in AW because there were only 200 people at peak times. And if I remember correctly, there were base caps during some of those years. Which is one of the things I have suggested they institute in AH to regulate the hording.
I was there. I saw it. There were small hordes smashing bases, the majority of the action was centered around one or two bases, and I silently complained about getting ganged MANY times. Don't try to tell me it didn't happen. I flew spitfires for some months after I started. I complained about cherry picking pony's and FW's. NOTHING has changed except the scale of the complaints.
You keep saying they look for a way around the "rules," THERE ARE NO RULES against NOE raids or hording nor should there be. They don't have to look for ways around anything. And last of all, your belief that anyone in this game would be just as happy playing space ships and lazer tanks is a ridiculous generalization that borders on retardednes. There may be a few, but my experience is that 95% of the population are here because of an interest in WW2 aviation or aviation in general. Just because they don't agree with how YOU want the game to be played doesn't give any credibility to your misconceptions.
Of course they have changed, how naive can you be? Sure there were little hordes in AW, my squad was one of them! We were the 444th Air Mafia. Squad nights we had 10-15 people flying and we were very good at taking bases. The difference was in stead of just sneaking around rolling bases we looked to engage the enemy because the game was combat, fighting in the air to take ground away from the "enemy". Todays players are just trying to accumulate enough points (base count) to win the war.
Yes there were rules in this game too, unwritten rules but people mostly followed them. Because most people in the game flew to pretend they were a WWII pilot playing "war". I'd bet more than half of the players today haven't a clue about WWII, heck they don't even teach it in school any more.... ancient history. That's why I said a good portion of players today wouldn't care if it was space ships and lazer tanks, because the equipment doesn't matter to them, only the out come....win the war. CoD works well no matter the era they are using. "modern warfare" vs the WWII version. They both sold well, why? Because it was the same game dynamics... pick an avatar, run around a small area shooting anything that moves, respawn when you die. Doesn't matter whether it is UZI's or tommy guns, same game. Todays "gamers" don't care about the equipment, they are going to grab the fastest hardest hitting thing they can to roll the bases as fast as they can to win the war. That is there ONLY objective, to them this is fun. Bringing in F2P would only bring in more of these types of players.
There's an old quote you should remember, "with our thoughts, we make our world." This problem as you call it, is bigger for you because you make it bigger.
....and if my "thoughts" make this a better game, what then?
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Judging by how you hold onto your misconceptions, nothing.
LOL!!! grow up. I have no "misconceptions" about this game and it's players. I have theories as to what I believe is happening based on over ten years of playing this game continuously. When you come back from your multi-year hiatus you let us know what you think. Until then, your opinion is just speculation.
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LOL!!! grow up. I have no "misconceptions" about this game and it's players. I have theories as to what I believe is happening based on over ten years of playing this game continuously. When you come back from your multi-year hiatus you let us know what you think. Until then, your opinion is just speculation.
You're still saying the same thing you were saying when I was in game. No reason to think you are any less wrong than you were then. I wont bother responding to your adolescent insults even though they do go well with your "daddy they're not playing the game the way I want to" whines.
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Rather arrogant of you Muzik, not to mention hypocritical.
You question the validity of my view on the grounds of time spent in AH, then turn around and brush off the same type of questioning about you from a more experienced player.
Clearly its not that our opinions lack evidence, but rather that anything you don't already agree with is wrong.
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You're still saying the same thing you were saying when I was in game. No reason to think you are any less wrong than you were then. I wont bother responding to your adolescent insults even though they do go well with your "daddy they're not playing the game the way I want to" whines.
oh I see, your using the old "Im rubber, your glue. What ever you say bounces off me and sticks to you" argument because you don't have anything else to say. LOL!!
I'm saying that the two main reason people leave this game are the economy, and they are bored with doing the same old horde mission time and time again. I've seen it over and over again, time after time. All those guys who defended the "it's not a horde, but a mission" over the years, look them up. Most of them are gone, why, they got bored.
Bringing in a bunch of F2P players is only going to bring in more of those type of players, the ones looking for the "quick way" to the top. Whether that top is score, or win the war, or like in that other thread "starts next to their names". It won't promote a better type of game play and so won't work to help retain players.
What WILL help to retain players is a better training setup. Achievements that encourage "team" play as complex missions in stead of large numbers hordes. Maybe even a less "toxic" atmosphere in the main arena. HTC never want to "hinder" or take away any types of game play, but I'm sure a few carrots could be found to lead players to play a bit better while still having fun.
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Instead of jacking with an air combat game, by taking away 70% of the aircraft based game play to add infantry.. Why not take you idea to an FPS game and ask them to do away with 30% of their infantry game play to add an aircraft element?
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Why not take you idea to an FPS game and ask them to do away with 30% of their infantry game play to add an aircraft element?
Because 90% of people can't fly for hell without a LOT of practice, even with very basic flight modeling? Not worth their time unless it starts out as an organic part of the game most likely.
Its kinda funny. Hopped on BF 1942 a bit ago, and their good sticks are about as easy to kill as our nubblets.
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Because 90% of people can't fly for hell without a LOT of practice, even with very basic flight modeling? Not worth their time unless it starts out as an organic part of the game most likely.
Its kinda funny. Hopped on BF 1942 a bit ago, and their good sticks are about as easy to kill as our nubblets.
That pretty much gives you your answer. People that don't want to learn to fly but want the FPS experiance should go to an FPS game. Why come to a flight sim and demand it be turned into an FPS?
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That pretty much gives you your answer. People that don't want to learn to fly but want the FPS experiance should go to an FPS game. Why come to a flight sim and demand it be turned into an FPS?
Because everything MUST try to appeal to the widest audience possible. It apparently is the only possible way to survive in today's game market. It must appeal to the hardcore, casual, and average player equally. Gotta have planes, armor, FPS, subs, motorcycles, bicycles, hang gliders, parachutes, trains, gyrocopters, and zepplins because that will bring in more customers. Really.
:(
Wiley.
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Because everything MUST try to appeal to the widest audience possible. It apparently is the only possible way to survive in today's game market. It must appeal to the hardcore, casual, and average player equally. Gotta have planes, armor, FPS, subs, motorcycles, bicycles, hang gliders, parachutes, trains, gyrocopters, and zepplins because that will bring in more customers. Really.
:(
Wiley.
:rofl :rofl
wheres my power-ups...... :furious :furious :furious
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Bicycles!! You won me over bring it on! :rock
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Walls of text hurt Bull's brain :confused:
o_O