Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: mthrockmor on July 20, 2013, 02:04:50 PM
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A rough definition of a noob ride is something that is so easy to fight it takes zero skill to pose a risk to everyone. Clearly the Yak3 is the newest noob ride of AH. The frustration is everything is the Yak3, every where every time. Gone are the days in which you could up in a mid-war bird and have a fruitfull day mixing it up with late-war birds. Now, everything is disrupted by noobs in Yak3s.
I know, I know...the scourge will diminish over time. People will get bored of flying the newest noob ride. Begs the question about using perks to control the usage of something like this. A rolling, floating perk system so that when 100 people up 99 of them are not in Yak3s, without cost atleast.
In any case, I'll log for a few weeks and see what August brings. I see why people lose interest in the MA and only fly FSO or Scenarios. If I wanted this action I would sign up for an arcade game.
Flame away...
boo
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Your missing the A5 hunting trip!
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Perk the YAK-3. :old:
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When the P40s were redone everyone complained about how bad they sucked...... same thing with the P39. Now we have a plane added that everyone seems to like and folks still complain :lol HTC can't win for losing with some guys.
I don't mind the Yak3. I find them to be a challenge to fight and a good change of pace. It sure as hell beats swatting at Spitfires constantly. The new will wear off on the Yak thing and we'll be back to normal in a couple of months.
And Boo, I would think you'd enjoy some 109F vs Yak3 action.....sounds like a interesting matchup to me <SHRUGS>
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I really can't imagine that the Yak-3 will remain that popular. It simply doesn't have the firepower or ammo demanded for the task as it requires shooting accuracy that n00bs don't have.
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Remember when the P-47M was introduced? ;)
Seriously, it's a new toy which players are simply eager to try out. A relatively high initial usage is the norm, not the exception, for any ride that's at least half way competitive in the LW MA. That's no reason to perk anything, especially as "99 out of 100" upped planes are Yaks is quite a bold exaggeration :)
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It's not THAT great. Treat it like a slightly lesser Spit16. Haven't run into any Yak3 pilots that gave me trouble yet. Lots of people don't know what to do with it.
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I've run into a lot of Yak-3's lately also. I love em. They want to fight, think they have a plane to beat you in and make such pretty colors as they flame all they way down to the ocean. C'mon boo, if you're not a Knight, switch, join JG11 on our squad channel, wing up, and let's slaughter a whole hurd of em. I've also seen a lot of these new "Uber"Yaks flying in pairs, what fun ! They are fiddling with their new shiny plane, staring at all the new stuff their new toy has and NEVER checking their high 6. Guess who is there? Go ahead, look up and back........................n o higher...............just a bit more.............there I am !
BOOM!
(tower)
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Been away from the game a few weeks....was looking forward to trying out the new Yak but I guess I'll hold off for now. :)
I do plan, however, to up the Yak9T as I was flying it for several weeks before the break and look forward to seeing the changes.
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The 190a5 is a noob ride.
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Numbers seem to be declining already . For example in the past hour, there had been 753 kills by and deaths of fighters in the MA. Only 33 of them were by/of the Yak-3 (and an additional 36 by/of the other Yak marks). And as I write these words, I'm watching the stream of kills/deaths and still only see a Yak popping up every once in a while.
As said before in this thread, low ammo count, no ords and short legs will limit it's role and thus numbers in the MA in the long run. :old:
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Now we have a plane added that everyone seems to like and folks still complain :lol HTC can't win for losing with some guys.
yeh, this right here. :rolleyes:
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A rough definition of a noob ride is something that is so easy to fight it takes zero skill to pose a risk to everyone. Clearly the Yak3 is the newest noob ride of AH. The frustration is everything is the Yak3, every where every time. Gone are the days in which you could up in a mid-war bird and have a fruitfull day mixing it up with late-war birds. Now, everything is disrupted by noobs in Yak3s.
I know, I know...the scourge will diminish over time. People will get bored of flying the newest noob ride. Begs the question about using perks to control the usage of something like this. A rolling, floating perk system so that when 100 people up 99 of them are not in Yak3s, without cost atleast.
In any case, I'll log for a few weeks and see what August brings. I see why people lose interest in the MA and only fly FSO or Scenarios. If I wanted this action I would sign up for an arcade game.
Flame away...
boo
(http://thethirtiesgrind.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/sky-is-falling.jpg)
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Been a Yak Fanatic for 14 years....alone....now people whining about Yaks. :lol
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:devil :devil :mad: :mad: :huh :huh :huh Right Aztec...me too! :devil :devil :devil :devil :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener:
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I've run into a lot of Yak-3's lately also. I love em. They want to fight, think they have a plane to beat you in and make such pretty colors as they flame all they way down to the ocean. C'mon boo, if you're not a Knight, switch, join JG11 on our squad channel, wing up, and let's slaughter a whole hurd of em. I've also seen a lot of these new "Uber"Yaks flying in pairs, what fun ! They are fiddling with their new shiny plane, staring at all the new stuff their new toy has and NEVER checking their high 6. Guess who is there? Go ahead, look up and back........................n o higher...............just a bit more.............there I am !
BOOM!
(tower)
That's the problem for 190 drivers (including the Dora and Ta 152H). If you run into a Co-E, Co- alt Yak-3 below 5k, you have two viable options (assuming the Yak pilot has any clue whatsoever). Run and run faster. The same can be said for much of the plane set.... Fly right past it and keep on going....
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A rough definition of a noob ride is something that is so easy to fight it takes zero skill to pose a risk to everyone. Clearly the Yak3 is the newest noob ride of AH. The frustration is everything is the Yak3, every where every time. Gone are the days in which you could up in a mid-war bird and have a fruitfull day mixing it up with late-war birds. Now, everything is disrupted by noobs in Yak3s.
I know, I know...the scourge will diminish over time. People will get bored of flying the newest noob ride. Begs the question about using perks to control the usage of something like this. A rolling, floating perk system so that when 100 people up 99 of them are not in Yak3s, without cost atleast.
In any case, I'll log for a few weeks and see what August brings. I see why people lose interest in the MA and only fly FSO or Scenarios. If I wanted this action I would sign up for an arcade game.
Flame away...
boo
LOL :cry
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A rough definition of a noob ride is something that is so easy to fight it takes zero skill to pose a risk to everyone. Clearly the Yak3 is the newest noob ride of AH. The frustration is everything is the Yak3, every where every time. Gone are the days in which you could up in a mid-war bird and have a fruitfull day mixing it up with late-war birds. Now, everything is disrupted by noobs in Yak3s.
I know, I know...the scourge will diminish over time. People will get bored of flying the newest noob ride. Begs the question about using perks to control the usage of something like this. A rolling, floating perk system so that when 100 people up 99 of them are not in Yak3s, without cost atleast.
In any case, I'll log for a few weeks and see what August brings. I see why people lose interest in the MA and only fly FSO or Scenarios. If I wanted this action I would sign up for an arcade game.
Flame away...
boo
I have yet run into a Yak3 that will actually fight me, so I tend to bait them with K4 or La7. A plane I know can catch them if they attempt to run OR if they are really dweeby while they run I will let them get far enough and I will just bail. No proxy for them or fight.
Every Yak3 I run into has run from me the minute they are reversed and it isn't hard reversing them at all, but the lame pilots fail to realize you can't just get in a new ride and expect to know how to fly it right away. I was fighting JJ the other night, I was in a P47N WITH ROCKETS, he insisted on running from me. . .So I let him run and watched him kill about 3 friendlies; The minute he went to land I dove in on his base and rocket vulched him, he wasn't too happy with that but hey. . .Don't run from a fight you should be able to win. It is annoying.
Also it is the same way with P51's 190D's and even Spit14's . . . You can be in the "worst" plane, but the minute you are behind them they are high tailing it all the way to friendlies or to ack. So I got fed up with it and now I do what RuAmL does, fly LA7's. You can't run from an LA7 :rolleyes:
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Sometimes a run isn't a run though.
I am not that good, but while I'll fight to the death I also like to have a sporting chance. On three occasions that I can think of I have had situations where a higher, more agile, but slower, fighter engaged me while I was in the Mossie. In all cases, a C.205 and Spitfire Mk IX in the first and a Ki-84 and an F6F on the other two, I tangled briefly before losing any chance to get guns on the other guy(s) so I put the nose down and did what probably looked to the other guy like I was running, but all I was doing was trying to reset the fight to the point where I might be able to get guns on them. In both cases I turned to fight again once I had enough separation or was able to get terrain cover to obscure my turn. I did not run to friendlies or ack, nor did I wait for the other guy(s) to give up and turn away. I got the C.205, losing my #2 engine in the fight with the Spit IX withdrawing and I lost to both the Ki-84 and F6F.
My point is that sometimes the other guy may be honorably "running".
I will grant that is probably the minority.
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I have yet run into a Yak3 that will actually fight me, so I tend to bait them with K4 or La7. A plane I know can catch them if they attempt to run OR if they are really dweeby while they run I will let them get far enough and I will just bail. No proxy for them or fight.
Every Yak3 I run into has run from me the minute they are reversed and it isn't hard reversing them at all, but the lame pilots fail to realize you can't just get in a new ride and expect to know how to fly it right away. I was fighting JJ the other night, I was in a P47N WITH ROCKETS, he insisted on running from me. . .So I let him run and watched him kill about 3 friendlies; The minute he went to land I dove in on his base and rocket vulched him, he wasn't too happy with that but hey. . .Don't run from a fight you should be able to win. It is annoying.
Also it is the same way with P51's 190D's and even Spit14's . . . You can be in the "worst" plane, but the minute you are behind them they are high tailing it all the way to friendlies or to ack. So I got fed up with it and now I do what RuAmL does, fly LA7's. You can't run from an LA7 :rolleyes:
I have found that the antidote for the La-7 is a 109G2. Having fought many duels against the La-7 with the G-2 (mostly with bighorn2), I'm always looking for an La-7 to gobble up. Unfortunately, as soon as I break 'em down and get behind, they run like their shorts are on fire and their hair is catchin'. It was best they run, because I would have killed them in short order had they stayed and fought. The Yak-3 is at least as good as the 109G2 in a maneuver fight.... The problem is that guys who aren't very good, are still not very good in a Yak-3.
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I don't understand, is the Yak 3 more of a lack of skill compensator than any other fighter in the set?
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I don't understand, is the Yak 3 more of a lack of skill compensator than any other fighter in the set?
Translation: people are starting to think it's a Spit16/La7 all rolled into one.
IMO, it's a fine plane, but it's not god status like the Spit16.
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Translation: people are starting to think it's a Spit16/La7 all rolled into one.
IMO, it's a fine plane, but it's not god status like the Spit16.
Spit16 is god status thats absurd :rofl
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Spit16 is god status thats absurd :rofl
Pretty sure the only plane that it can't match is the 262. Climbs with the best, turns with the best, runs from those it can't turn with. Luckily, noobs flock to it and die like weeds.
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As compared to the Spitfire Mk XVI the Yak-3 is faster at low altitude, particularly considering it isn't relying on WEP, has better visibility out of the cockpit, has centerline mounted guns and is a smaller target. The Spitfire Mk XVI rolls better, climbs better, has greater firepower, has better altitude performance, is more versatile, turns slightly better and has better cockpit protection. I am not sure which is tougher other than the pilot though I'd guess the Yak-3.
As long as the Spitfire Mk XVI has WEP it is the superior fighter and it is always the more versatile fighter.
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Pretty sure the only plane that it can't match is the 262. Climbs with the best, turns with the best, runs from those it can't turn with. Luckily, noobs flock to it and die like weeds.
It does not turn with the best nor can it run from anything it can't turn with.
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It does not turn with the best nor can it run from anything it can't turn with.
Really? I'm not the best pilot and when I hop in to one it's like an automatic 5 kill sortie. Not a single plane gives it trouble outside of another Spit16/262/possibly F4U4.
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Really? I'm not the best pilot and when I hop in to one it's like an automatic 5 kill sortie. Not a single plane gives it trouble outside of another Spit16/262/possibly F4U4.
It is very good, one of the best, no debate, but overstating things doesn't make you look insightful, it makes you look hyperbolic. You're far better than the average player and that makes the Spit XVI all the more effective. A newbie in a Spit XVI will try to turn with an F4U and die or get roped by a P-51D and die or any other number of deaths.
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Really? I'm not the best pilot and when I hop in to one it's like an automatic 5 kill sortie. Not a single plane gives it trouble outside of another Spit16/262/possibly F4U4.
The average AH pilot can only dream of such things.
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The Spit 16, LA7, and Yak3 all need to be perked. Not outrageously but enough to thin them out. They are all ridiculously good. The yak does not have wep and yet still seems to always have energy. Also, just how rugged is the thing? I have got one, just one kill against the five I have hit. I am hitting at convergence and letting go with long bursts, hit sprits on the plane and the only one I put down happened to be Zack1234 when he was AFK and I hung behind him really letting him have it. I burnt up more ammo on him than I would have a P47 which I have always thought of as a pretty tough bird.
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The Spit 16, LA7, and Yak3 all need to be perked. Not outrageously but enough to thin them out.
Only after the Pony has been perked first :)
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Only after the Pony has been perked first :)
All planes better than the P-40N should be perked :)
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Yak3 is a nice ride but not some uber plane. I kill 3 for every one that gets me and I'm not that good. Fun to fly and it will remain popular but I don't see it unseating any of the top 5 planes once the new wears off.
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I think the guns will eventually take the noobs away. The Spits, La7, and Ki-84 have much more to offer someone in terms of firepower and give up little to nothing in maneuverability.
With that said, I'm not gonna be shocked if a few really good sticks don't make the Yak3 their project and show us what she's capable of. If you're a good shot and don't spray mobster style, there's not much to hate.
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:rofl I've only run across one yak3 and he ran out of fuel and ditched. I've been looking for one to see how it performs against my fav ride but can't find one. :devil
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All planes better than the P-40N should be perked :)
:lol I'll 2nd that
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I have shot down a few Yak 3's, in my opinion it just depends on the pilot who is flying the Yak, a pilot that can shoot me down in a Yak-3 has a pretty good chance of shooting me down in anything else in a 1v1 situation
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Did I misunderstand that Karnak, the Spit16 trying to turn with an F4u will die? How so, and which F4U? I was under the impression that the Spit16 will mow any of the F4u's in a turn fight, even with their uber flaps deployed.
How does the Yak3 stack up vs the F4u's in terms of turn circles?
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Only after the Pony has been perked first :)
I say lightly perk all the late war monsters, 51, Spit16, La7, D9 etc. much like the GVs just to skew the usage slightly towards more Mid-War planes.
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As I understand it the F4U with flaps deployed will easily turn inside a Spit XVI. The Spit XVI is actually not that great of a turner, just for an aircraft as fast as it is. The F4Us on the other hand are even faster and turn tighter with flaps out. Of course against a skilled Mk XVI that is suicide as he'll just go vertical, but newbies tend to over rely on the flat turn.
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I say lightly perk all the late war monsters, 51, Spit16, La7, D9 etc. much like the GVs just to skew the usage slightly towards more Mid-War planes.
I think that is what the MW Arena is for :)
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That F4U will spend E like a drunken sailor (or marine) using those uber flaps and rudder. if you're really lucky he'll be one of those idjuts who thinks dropping the wheels is a performance enhancer. That or he'll stall 50 feet off the deck and learn one reason why it was called the "Ensign Eliminator". The F4U is a very capable bird but (like most everything else, but IMO even more so) only if you know how to fly it properly.
Calling the Yak-3 a lack-of-skill-compensator is ridiculous. No noob is going to land 5 kills in it - if nothing else than just because if the lack of firepower.
Perking all those planes will have exactly the wrong effect. The pilots you need to worry about, the veterans, have plenty of perks and won't think twice about spending 3 or 4 to take a Spit or La. The noobs who won't be able to afford it are exactly the people who need those planes the most. I can't think of a better way to discourage new players and kill this game off than to make new players take less capable planes than the vets who can already beat them 19 times out of 20.
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people in Yak3s generally seem to want to fight, it's great
I'll take hordes of Yak3s over hordes of P51s any day
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Only after the Pony has been perked first :)
I disagree, I fly jugs a lot and when I hop in a pony I can make it do things the noobs could only dream of. The spixteen makes me feel dirty and soiled when I fly it, but I can own everything in the sky. A spit can outperform my jugs on every level (they can even out dive me apparently). The only time I can kill a spixteen is if I'm in another spixteen or in a pony and the other guy is an idiot. Spit 16 should be between 1 and 3 perks. LA7s are another nuance to me. Unshakable little piles of ruskie scrap metal. Perk them a few points as well. Make the ones that want up them just to use as a HO machine think twice about it.
All planes better than the P-40N should be perked :)
So your logic is to perk every plane in the game? :headscratch:
The Yak-3s have been a common sight for me, curiously though they usually seem to be accompanied by a spit of some kind. I've been able to sucker quite a few Yak-3s into a 1v1. A P-38 can't match roll but can beat it just about everywhere else. A P-40 has little chance unless it's flown by a skilled pilot (clearly I'm not the right man for the job). A P-47 can give them a good run for their money if the jug driver is patient and waits for the Yak to go vertical. A pony is a Yak's worst enemy. It can outperform the Yak on every level, and in my case I was able to fight off a second Yak with it while testing (only got the kill for the one though).
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As I understand it the F4U with flaps deployed will easily turn inside a Spit XVI.
for about a half a turn..
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F4U might turn with a Spit16, but once the Corsair E is gone, all the Spit16 has to do is start bringing the fight uphill and start a rolling scissor. Easy meat.
As for the Yak3, myself, Zaphod, Saito, and System went to test it out in the DA today. Low and slow, this thing slides, you can easily fly sideways with a flick of the rudder for a good 2-3 seconds below 125mph. Only thing that seems hard was the fact that if you slammed the throttle from zero to 100% at low speeds, it will snap roll right over. Seems like you have to gently nudge the throttle forward or else you risk angering.
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Boo stop crying and posting your silliness here I have no sympathy for you, If I can go out almost every flight in a KI43 you can put up with a few "noobs" in yaks who I guess are better than you since you get killed by them.
Up a plane or sit silent. Learn to fly your a/c and if you cant then take getting killed quietly. Grow up for heavens sake.
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Boo stop crying and posting your silliness here I have no sympathy for you, If I can go out almost every flight in a KI43 you can put up with a few "noobs" in yaks who I guess are better than you since you get killed by them.
Up a plane or sit silent. Learn to fly your a/c and if you cant then take getting killed quietly. Grow up for heavens sake.
Yes Dad....I stand so corrected now. Your wisdom and fatherly advice is sobering. Now shave about 15 minutes off of your videos and maybe I'll watch one. :salute
boo
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Boo stop crying and posting your silliness here I have no sympathy for you, If I can go out almost every flight in a KI43 you can put up with a few "noobs" in yaks who I guess are better than you since you get killed by them.
Up a plane or sit silent. Learn to fly your a/c and if you cant then take getting killed quietly. Grow up for heavens sake.
The ki-43 is a great plane. Better than you lead on.
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Whilst i may not share the volume of anger that Boo feels i remain a bit put-off about the yak3's and their current shenanigans. That being said my opinion is mostly what this thread morphed in to and i understand that in a bit,
there will be no more "scourge". Boo flies the Mighty 190 A-5 as do I. Any victory is a true test of skill as any loss can be for 100 million + reasons, simple plane -out performance being as easy and often one. Being in this game for the "fight" means i get angry when a brand new shiny yak (or any plane for that matter) dives for home -no matter ze distance- after you've reversed them blind...usually fist or second merge kinda thing. No point in chasin..cause we wont catch them. Which, of course, ruins the whole reason i logged on. No problem with the yaks....Just the numerous UN-willing pilots who fly them.
Thoughts on perking all late war rides. Only possible if the Perk base was separated amongst the arenas and reset all gathered perkies to 0 <----- some own vast amounts indeed and would be reluctant to have regain? Idk, I honestly wouldnt mind but ehh. i changed my name so much i never collected any amount over 500 at any 1 time. not a big thing imo. After this was done..the veterans and noobs would both have an even playing field start, well however much equality there could be between the wolf and the sheep.
Enjoy.
:airplane:
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The Yak-3s have been a common sight for me, curiously though they usually seem to be accompanied by a spit of some kind. I've been able to sucker quite a few Yak-3s into a 1v1. A P-38 can't match roll but can beat it just about everywhere else. A P-40 has little chance unless it's flown by a skilled pilot (clearly I'm not the right man for the job). A P-47 can give them a good run for their money if the jug driver is patient and waits for the Yak to go vertical. A pony is a Yak's worst enemy. It can outperform the Yak on every level, and in my case I was able to fight off a second Yak with it while testing (only got the kill for the one though).
Explain to us how a P-51 "can outperform the Yak on every level".
The P-51 is faster, as long as it has WEP. Without WEP, not much difference. Especially at low level. The Yak-3 has a turning radius much, much smaller than a P-51. It climbs much faster. It accelerates much faster. Co-E, Co-alt, equal pilots, the P-51 has two choices... Avoid a fight or die. Ditto for the Yak-9U. P-51s have 5 minutes of WEP. Conversely, the Yaks have, essentially, 25 minutes of WEP. You are making the most common error I see. You assume because you beat a guy flying something, it was because you had the better fighter. I've beat Spit16s and La-7s with a P-40... All it proved was the suckiness of those pilots. The P-40 is a pig, but a pig was more than enough for those guys.
Here's an example. Take a P-38J/L and a Ki-84. Equal pilots, meeting in a classic duel. All things equal at the start. The P-38 is toast. The Yak is very much like the Ki-84, in that it does everything related to dogfighting better than the P-38. Now consider that the Yak-3 is faster than the Ki-84 (and the P-38), turns better and climbs like a rocket.
Tonight, I shot down three P-38s with a Yak-3. Easy work. However, those guys weren't very good. Even if they were, the P-38 has no advantage to exploit. I chased down and killed a Yak-3 too.
Trust me when I say that you don't want to meet a good stick flying a Yak-3. Your P-38, P-47 and P-51 are ill equipped to burn off E trying to get a shot. The Yak will slice and dice them with similar efficiency to a Spit16. You pick your American iron. You encounter a Yak-3 at your altitude, and you merge. Should you reverse off of the merge, the Yak will whip around and be pulling lead long before you've fully reversed. You will be on the defensive immediately.
Any time you may want to test your theory, shoot me a PM and we'll go to a quiet field in the TA and you can have a go at it.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=0&p2=131&pw=2>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=82&p2=131&pw=1>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=102&p2=131&pw=1>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=78&p2=131&pw=0>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=78&p2=131&pw=1>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=78&p2=131&pw=0>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=24&p2=131&pw=0>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=24&p2=131&pw=0>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
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F4U might turn with a Spit16, but once the Corsair E is gone, all the Spit16 has to do is start bringing the fight uphill and start a rolling scissor. Easy meat.
I don't know how many here remember Urchin (one of the better pilots at that time). We flew a series of duels. I took an F4U-1D and Urchin flew a Spit16. On every reverse of every merge, I was able to get guns on his Spit. Sometimes minor pings, other times hosed. If he survived the first reverse, he still had his hands full until the Corsair had run out of E. Then, all he had to do was take the fight vertical. At that point, it was just a matter of time before he got hits with his cannon. The F4U can reverse very quickly, because it can scrub off speed very quickly, tightening the turn. The problem that presents itself is that you must either kill or damage the Spitfire on that first reverse, or the advantage quickly switches back to the Spit.
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One little statistic not to be overlooked...
Only two fighters (excluding jets) have a positive kill to death ratio over the Yak-3... The Tempest and the 190D-9. Both types are primarily used to pick at furballs... Low risk combat.
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Oh noes its not a hanger queen and people find it use full, whatever will we do!?!! :t
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how about a player ENY, higher the rank in fighters or attack, the more restricted the ride. Just a thought, i'm sure arguements either way.
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Boo stop crying and posting your silliness here I have no sympathy for you, If I can go out almost every flight in a KI43 you can put up with a few "noobs" in yaks who I guess are better than you since you get killed by them.
Up a plane or sit silent. Learn to fly your a/c and if you cant then take getting killed quietly. Grow up for heavens sake.
To me I find the ki-43 to be way too easy fly. Even the brew is harder to fly (ki-43 out turns it and out rolls it and is faster) A6M3 is nothing compared to the ki-43 as again the 43 is faster, turns better, and rolls better at low speed. So saying you can fly the 43 all the time dosen't say much... No hate just saying. Also look at the bold text. So if I kill you with a tank because im camping the runway that means im better than you?
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reading between the lines this sounds like the yak-3 is faster than my favourite ride and can kick my bellybutton.
This is the exact reason I LOVE flying it because people can just runaway from my Spitty, in the Yak I can gobble up P51D's, 109K4's, 190's etc, If they engage and want to fight they are dead.
I will just take the opinion that for every limp wristed flyer that has ever runaway from me in late war the Yak-3 is retribution.
I do agree with lowering the ENY to say 10 but no Perk.
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It's a decent plane no doubt but it's usage will drop off next month for the deficiencies people have mentioned previously. There complaints about every other spit being a spit 14 last month; and this month its relatively uncommon with it just making into the top 20 of number of kills.
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Its a new plane :banana:
In reality it owned German planes on the Eastern front :old:
It makes me proud to be Russian :)
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Pfft Spit 8 murders spit 16 that's the real darkhorse here, Yak-3 will be a very capable fighter in the right hands like the very same people who can actually use the LA in a proper turn fight/stall fight. Wouldn't mind seeing what sonic or tilt can do in it after a bit of practice in it.
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One little statistic not to be overlooked...
Only two fighters (excluding jets) have a positive kill to death ratio over the Yak-3... The Tempest and the 190D-9. Both types are primarily used to pick at furballs... Low risk combat.
At this very moment, it's 12 fighters having a positive K/D over the Yak-3. But the volume of data is still so small for most of them, that there is not much significance to it yet. Numbers will still change rather rapidly, and it's not only yak-3 pilots getting used to the new ride but also their enemies getting used to fighting them.
Will be very interesting to see how it plays out over the course of the next 1-2 tours.
And for the Yak-3 usage: During Saturdays prime time, the Yak-3 had 6.88% of all fighter kills and deaths, being placed second after the P--51D with 8.22%
Yesterday's prime time top 10 fighters in usage were:
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/snapshotsat_zps01dbdfea.jpg)
Note again the stellar performance of the P-51D compared to rides like the Spit 16...
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The yak3 is no threat as a noob plane. No plane is a threat with a noob in it.
However, in the hands of a player who knows his basics it is increadible. Both as a knife fighter and as an energy fighter. It takes a mediocre player and put him at a level of excellent player in mid war planes.
As far as i know, this is the only plane in the set that does not have a stalling speed. At full power the limit on how slow/steep you can fly/climb is the torque, not the stall. A speed of 90 mph can be maintained at full power which corresponds to 3500-4000 fpm climb. I dont thik any other plane can come close to that, but i need to test the spit 8/16, la7 and k4 to be sure. Have not flown any of them in a long while.
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Its being seen more, all the Yaks, only cause they are new. Even the 9s were redone and look very good now. Eventually players will drift back to their 38s, Spit-8s, and assorted other 15 to 20perk-somethings that have more firepower then the Yak. Players generally dont like a lot of assists.
If we had the TU-2 I'd happily spend the rest of my AH career flying only planes of the Red Star. At least for a month at a time. I just like the Yaks cause they are pleasurable to fly.
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I think I am 96 for 16 in the Yak3, it's a bloody good aircraft.
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To me I find the ki-43 to be way too easy fly. Even the brew is harder to fly (ki-43 out turns it and out rolls it and is faster) A6M3 is nothing compared to the ki-43 as again the 43 is faster, turns better, and rolls better at low speed. So saying you can fly the 43 all the time doesn't say much... No hate just saying. Also look at the bold text. So if I kill you with a tank because I'm camping the runway that means I'm better than you?
Olds I don't think you even understand whats going on in this conversation. My thing is will complaining gain sympathy for the player? No. Will HT pull it from the game? No. Will people stop flying it? Well not until they're ready. So why waste the energy here?
My angle with the 43 was if I can fly out every time and get some kills but be dog piled every stinking time by three plus fighters of the later war years, someone else should be able to adjust their style of play to meet a new and upcoming threat. Treat it as a new challenge obviously he was getting too used to having his own way in a fight and so he runs here to tell the community of the NOOB SCOURGE ruining the cartoon skies of Aces High. Almost as bad as hearing Tosh on range, or someone scream about hacking cheating or anything else. If you find yourself being beaten by a plane get off your butt and go learn how to beat it. Never stop learning. And for God's sake quit whining about silly stuff you can change.
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:)
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At this very moment, it's 12 fighters having a positive K/D over the Yak-3. But the volume of data is still so small for most of them, that there is not much significance to it yet. Numbers will still change rather rapidly, and it's not only yak-3 pilots getting used to the new ride but also their enemies getting used to fighting them.
Will be very interesting to see how it plays out over the course of the next 1-2 tours.
Most of the planes with positive kill ratios over the Yak are perk rides or the common rides of picker specialists. Very few Dora drivers will engage a Yak-3. Typically, they'll wait until the Yak is preoccupied and dive in for the pick. The majority of the P-47Ms I've seen do the same. There are exceptions, like LilMac (who will not run from any fight), but they are few and far between. Tempests, 262s, Doras, CHogs, Ta 152s, F4U-4 and so on. These guys won't risk their perks, and obviously realize that a maneuver fight with the Yak-3 is high risk. I have yet to find a P-51 that will engage. They all run. I find it interesting that the Spit16 is taking real beating from the Yak-3. Yak-3s have killed 127 Spit16s for 86 losses. I would have thought that this would be closer to 1/1, not 1.5/1 as it is. The Ki-84 is doing better than the Spit16, with 44 Yak-3 kills to 50 losses to the Yak.
Last evening, there was a big furball near a Knit CV, just off of a Rook field. I headed over, climbing to 15,000 feet. When I arrived, there were two Ta 152s and a Dora hovering about 10k near the CV. They would dive in and pick the guys in the furball, or scorch in and bounce bombers heading to the CV. When I showed up above them, they scattered like rats. I chased one of the 152s, closing from 2k to 1.2k, but couldn't get closer. Even after I turned away, he continued to run to his country-mates, likely in need of an underwear change. I went hunting elsewhere.
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LOL......I expected this and lodged my "careful what you wish for" when I saw all the lobbying for the yak3 because I have experienced it at other sims.
It is a good plane and should not be nerfed like many a "new plane" was at warbirds when it was found to perform as well as it did in real life and causing complaints.
We, as players, should take a bit more care in wishing and campaigning for the inclusion of late war beasts just because they are fast, cannon equipped monsters or threads such as this will continue.
Anyone remember the KI44 when first introduced at Warbirds?
It got nerfed after it performed up to par with it's real life counterpart.
We'd be a lot safer not wishing for low production late war cannon monsters like the P63, P61, p51h, and a few others and instead try to get some earlier war planes into the game that played a much larger role in the real war.
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52 kills 9 death in the Yak3...great plane as expected :aok
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I've been waiting for the 3 for years,, as have many others,, of course it's going to get flown a lot!
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A slightly worse spit 16? Its not that good
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Its not that good
Statistics beg to differ on that one.
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Statistics beg to differ on that one.
I haven't seen anything in my fights with them to suggest they are anything different to whats already here tbh
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Statistics beg to differ on that one.
Sorry but certain stats can be mis leading the only stat thats dead on is usage. K\D ratios cant reflect any planes true abilites theres to many variables, like is the pilot timid and only picks then runs at the first sign of danger, or is the pilot just furballing it with other pilots, Does the pilot fly with a group of squaddies and just kills people that are already engaged while his squaddies protect him. Just to many variables to have an honest no bs assesment of any planes K/D ratio.
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Sorry but certain stats can be mis leading the only stat thats dead on is usage. K\D ratios cant reflect any planes true abilites theres to many variables, like is the pilot timid and only picks then runs at the first sign of danger, or is the pilot just furballing it with other pilots, Does the pilot fly with a group of squaddies and just kills people that are already engaged while his squaddies protect him. Just to many variables to have an honest no bs assesment of any planes K/D ratio.
That is only really true of the rarely used rides in which a few players dominate the kills. Any popular ride sees those things smoothed away be sheer volume of use by many, many individuals.
Essentially the more popular a plane is the more its K/D ratio and other statistics reflect its real capabilities and real impact on the game.
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We need more noobs.
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With the Yak3 Aces High is definitely starting to turn into
http://youtu.be/438QdIDWhhU
and why does that Ipad game have better environmental gfx
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I agree with Slash. Noobs are like gold nuggets. No one jumps into this game and gets it right away unless they came from another similar game. If "easy" to fly planes help them wade through the learning curve and the schoolyard nonsense long enough to make them want to stay, I say bring on the easy mode rides. :D
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I agree with Slash. Noobs are like gold nuggets. No one jumps into this game and gets it right away unless they came from another similar game. If "easy" to fly planes help them wade through the learning curve and the schoolyard nonsense long enough to make them want to stay, I say bring on the easy mode rides. :D
Yeah but then we run the risk of getting more like midway those that never leave the trainers.
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With the Yak3 Aces High is definitely starting to turn into
http://youtu.be/438QdIDWhhU
How so? The Yak-3 does not seem to be a particular wonder plane. It is simply the first late war fighter than has been added in years.
and why does that Ipad game have better environmental gfx
:uhoh
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Yeah but then we run the risk of getting more like midway those that never leave the trainers.
i'd rather have hundreds more people who fly trainers (like Midway...and myself), but who want to actually dogfight, than what we currently have.
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i'd rather have hundreds more people who fly trainers (like Midway...and myself), but who want to actually dogfight, than what we currently have.
+1
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One thing I'll say about the Yak3 is that it's generated more "buzz" than any other plane added to the set since I can remember. This can only be a good thing IMO, generating interest in its performance versus other aircraft etc etc.
edit - i'd rather have hundreds more people who fly trainers (like Midway...and myself), but who want to actually dogfight, than what we currently have.
+2 Here as well, and that's another bonus that this new Yak3 brings to the game IMO, it's generating more a2a fights, with of course some exceptions of the pick patrol running a la Widewing's story. By and large though, the bit of time I was up since this update, I've seen a lot more mid-low altitude fights, and Yak3's are everywhere in the sky during these. Me likee the juice. Wheeeeez the juiiice.
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Now based on the charts i have seen and the statements in the thread. I would inquire as to why i have had a few fights where the yak 3 ran from me in my far ride ki-84 after two merges and a very entertaining fight where he ran grabbed a p-47m and came back i had no advantage and couldn't get a shot but i did enjoy dodging both of them till i ran out of fuel and ditched.
I have noticed that like most planes the pilot can make a difference but alas i engage yaks only to see the majority run if they lose the merge that goes for an array of planes. I do understand the need to survive and achieve a steller kill streak. I could care less about either and you will usually find me out numbered and out gunned trying, always trying.
To sum it up to each there own and some will fight some will run i may win i may lose. At the end of the day its a game its dynamic its challenging and man do i enjoy it.
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Now based on the charts i have seen and the statements in the thread. I would inquire as to why i have had a few fights where the yak 3 ran from me in my far ride ki-84 after two merges and a very entertaining fight where he ran grabbed a p-47m and came back i had no advantage and couldn't get a shot but i did enjoy dodging both of them till i ran out of fuel and ditched.
I have noticed that like most planes the pilot can make a difference but alas i engage yaks only to see the majority run if they lose the merge that goes for an array of planes. I do understand the need to survive and achieve a steller kill streak. I could care less about either and you will usually find me out numbered and out gunned trying, always trying.
To sum it up to each there own and some will fight some will run i may win i may lose. At the end of the day its a game its dynamic its challenging and man do i enjoy it.
:aok
It sucks that there aren't a lot of people who are willing to fly to fight. Keep it up, fighting the good fight. :cheers: Hopefully my Yak-3 will run into yours some time.
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i'd rather have hundreds more people who fly trainers (like Midway...and myself), but who want to actually dogfight, than what we currently have.
Do you even lift bro?
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:aok
It sucks that there aren't a lot of people who are willing to fly to fight. Keep it up, fighting the good fight. :cheers: Hopefully my Yak-3 will run into yours some time.
look forward to it odds are u will see me in a ki84. I leave if im pw. Out of ammo or in a cartoon casket lol
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look forward to it odds are u will see me in a ki84. I leave if im pw. Out of ammo or in a cartoon casket lol
My second favorite plane. :) Funny, my own code of rules are similar to yours. I'll run in the same situations as well but also against impossible odds. 5v1 is pushing it, anything higher and I'm turning around for more alt. :airplane:
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Do you even lift bro?
Coombzy was on, on Saturday night homie :aok
Must say im loving the addition of the yak from a pure dogfighters perspective since the release the fights have been great pure furballs everyday since :rock
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Yeah but then we run the risk of getting more like midway those that never leave the trainers.
Midway wasent bad he just talked crap about powning in a spit all the time all his 200 lip flapping aside he wasent a bad stick. Also the only time I've seen yak3 is in groups have yet to see a 1v1 but still fun I think it's a good add to the game. The way I look at it you pay for this game if you don't like it don't pay and don't play. Or do what I do hop on 200 and talk crap for no reason at all or troll
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i'd rather have hundreds more people who fly trainers (like Midway...and myself), but who want to actually dogfight, than what we currently have.
You can "actually dogfight" in anything. Problem is some don't want to put in the effort or challenge themselves in the harder rides. They want to skate around in over modeled planes doing unrealistic maneuvers thinking they're great aces. Your boy Thrilla is a good example. Ranked #3 in fighters at the moment flying Spit14s constantly. Give me a frikkin; break. Hop in a 38 and lets see how ya rank.
I don't want to hear that crap that only guys flying easy mode are the ones that fight.
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You can "actually dogfight" in anything. Problem is some don't want to put in the effort or challenge themselves in the harder rides. They want to skate around in over modeled planes doing unrealistic maneuvers thinking they're great aces. Your boy Thrilla is a good example. Ranked #3 in fighters at the moment flying Spit14s constantly. Give me a frikkin; break. Hop in a 38 and lets see how ya rank.
Maybe he just wants to fly the 14 now that it has been freed and doesn't care about the rank at all?
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Maybe he just wants to fly the 14 now that it has been freed and doesn't care about the rank at all?
Possibly. I'm just using him as an example, but you know the types I'm talking about. You know as well as I do there are guys in there that fly whatever is easiest to get the job done. Like Luft squads upping LA7s and Brewsters for base defense, or die hard allied guys upping 152s and 262s for bomber intercepts.
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You can "actually dogfight" in anything. Problem is some don't want to put in the effort or challenge themselves in the harder rides. They want to skate around in over modeled planes doing unrealistic maneuvers thinking they're great aces. Your boy Thrilla is a good example. Ranked #3 in fighters at the moment flying Spit14s constantly. Give me a frikkin; break. Hop in a 38 and lets see how ya rank.
I don't want to hear that crap that only guys flying easy mode are the ones that fight.
38s? Really? That is your example of a hard fighter? Really?
Take your bias blinders off. P-38 is well on the easy side of the average difficulty for a fighter in AH.
If you're going to go all elitist you ought to at least suggest something hard like the P-40s, Ki-61 or something similar.
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Any 38 guy knows every con in the sector comes to him first..........unless there's a P40 there too. :D
How is my comment elitist? That's not what I'm trying to convey.
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Like Luft squads upping LA7s and Brewsters for base defense, or die hard allied guys upping 152s and 262s for bomber intercepts.
Good thing I'm not in a "pretending-to-be" squad and can fly what I want, when I want and where I want :old:
For the record, the single fighter plane I have most kills in is... *drumroll* ... the Tempest! Number two... the Me 262!
Just in case anybody wondered if I'm one of those EZ mode cowards myself... :devil
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Any 38 guy knows every con in the sector comes to him first..........unless there's a P40 there too. :D
How is my comment elitist? That's not what I'm trying to convey.
Or Mossie. Or Ki-61. Or C.20x. Or F4F. Or Bf110. Or Me410. Or I-16. Or P-39.
P-38 fans like to brag about being the target of choice, but that is only because of the common rides they are the target of choice. Toss an uncommon ride in the mix and the P-38 will not be the first target.
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38s? Really? That is your example of a hard fighter? Really?
Take your bias blinders off. P-38 is well on the easy side of the average difficulty for a fighter in AH.
Balderdash, poppycock, and drivel all rolled into one.
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Balderdash, poppycock, and drivel all rolled into one.
Try flying more of the planeset. P-38s are on the easy side of the average line. They are not nearly the easiest, but they are easier than average.
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You can "actually dogfight" in anything. Problem is some don't want to put in the effort or challenge themselves in the harder rides. They want to skate around in over modeled planes doing unrealistic maneuvers thinking they're great aces. Your boy Thrilla is a good example. Ranked #3 in fighters at the moment flying Spit14s constantly. Give me a frikkin; break. Hop in a 38 and lets see how ya rank.
I don't want to hear that crap that only guys flying easy mode are the ones that fight.
And what is wrong with flying the spit14? If it is such an over modeled plane which can conduct unrealistic manoeuvers why are so few people flying it? Maybe it's a little more challenging than you think. I've flown several planes as my main ride in AH down the years, however you wont see me in a 38 or a jug for that matter, they hold no appeal to me. I would be surprised if more than a few people knew me from my days when i flew only the mossie. Rank does not matter to me, it is a by product of me having a few long weekends off work.
I fly the spit14 because i've wanted it unperked for years. I thought I had some good fights against you and some of your squad mates this weekend, clearly this wasn't the case for you.
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Try flying more of the planeset. P-38s are on the easy side of the average line. They are not nearly the easiest, but they are easier than average.
I fly other fighters a lot, but fly the 38 the most. I think that gives me a good perspective.
I don't think the 38 is the hardest plane to learn, but I think you're understating the time you need to be proficient in it. It does many things well but nothing really outstanding. That leads a noob to get 'stuck' during a fight. Ask me how I know. Also, the sheer size of the 38 usually means when you do get stuck and make a mistake, the other guy isn't likely to miss. You don't realize how much this matters until you go back to a smaller fighter, make a similar mistake, and the guy misses. I can usually get by with more mistakes in smaller fighters.
*Edit - I think that's one of the reasons I've had such fun in the Yak3. It's like going from driving a 1 ton dually pickup to a two seater sports car. :lol
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PERK THE LA-7!!!
I had nothing new to say so I went with the tried and true. ;)
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I think the Yak3 is more of a challenge to fight than the Spit14. I don't see either as the new noob ride of choice. The 16 and LA-7 will hold those titles for the foreseeable future. Both allow the user to write checks their ACM can't cash. And that's a good thing. Newer players need to have a good horse to ride so they will become older players without quitting.
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Newer players need to have a good horse to ride so they will become older players without quitting.
This theme is pretty compelling.
boo
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I won't lie a few months ago when I started I went for the spit 16, before I knew about the BBS or Vudu's videos. It was because of the fact I felt like it was working, then I started to learn and fly new aircraft and as of late have fallen for the KI-84 to me she is sexy, I am sure in time I will find a new ride something more challenging but until I feel I have grown old of the KI or bored of her ill keep her as my primary ride. now this is of course my opinion but I agree new players need a ride that won't kill them more then enemy's, this game is hard enough to learn as it is.
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You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. He'll drink when he's thirsty. Folks who want newer players to try stuff besides the "easy" planes, learn more about the fun of a good 1v1 and some ACM, or the rush that can come from a fight that happens right after you choose not to HO or run, often have an odd approach to making guys thirsty. Beating a horse with a stick while yelling "Drink this you stupid piece of worthless &^%$!" seems to be a popular choice.
Hey, why did my horse run off? :headscratch:
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Your boy Thrilla is a good example. Ranked #3 in fighters at the moment flying Spit14s constantly.
You should go fight thrila in 38s or anything else, my moneys on thrila btw :rofl
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One of the best things about this last patch. Lusche is back in the game and pervert is flying his dora instead of screaming in here. The bad thing is there's more Yak3 in the air than you can swat a stick at.
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Never been a Yak fan in the first place, but figured I should give the Yak3 a try in a sortie tonight. Having no idea how the plane would fly I climbed out of base and first enemy encounter was a P40. It did not take the P40 many turns to get the advantage on me, I had no idea what to do, tried to get flaps out but was clearly too fast even tho I felt like I was stalling out of the sky?! :joystick:
The P40 turned inside my turn like I was flying a 410, atleast that's how it felt like to me. :(
Guess it will be a long time before I up another Yak3, perhaps after a few flights in the TA to figure the plane out. :headscratch:
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Go up. No P-40 will go up with a Yak-3.
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A rough definition of a noob ride is something that is so easy to fight it takes zero skill to pose a risk to everyone. Clearly the Yak3 is the newest noob ride of AH. The frustration is everything is the Yak3, every where every time. Gone are the days in which you could up in a mid-war bird and have a fruitfull day mixing it up with late-war birds. Now, everything is disrupted by noobs in Yak3s.
I know, I know...the scourge will diminish over time. People will get bored of flying the newest noob ride. Begs the question about using perks to control the usage of something like this. A rolling, floating perk system so that when 100 people up 99 of them are not in Yak3s, without cost atleast.
In any case, I'll log for a few weeks and see what August brings. I see why people lose interest in the MA and only fly FSO or Scenarios. If I wanted this action I would sign up for an arcade game.
Flame away...
boo
Evidently you're not brought to the same level of annoyance by the P51? Or La7? Spit16? Seriously... let the Ya3 have its day and let everyone see just how much of a challenge the guns are and in a month or two when the usage goes down you'll be back to seeing the virtual skies filled with the P51's, La7's, and Spit16's. In the meantime enjoy something new!!! :aok
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You can "actually dogfight" in anything. Problem is some don't want to put in the effort or challenge themselves in the harder rides. They want to skate around in over modeled planes doing unrealistic maneuvers thinking they're great aces. Your boy Thrilla is a good example. Ranked #3 in fighters at the moment flying Spit14s constantly. Give me a frikkin; break. Hop in a 38 and lets see how ya rank.
I don't want to hear that crap that only guys flying easy mode are the ones that fight.
Well, this is a great post, except that I did not say that only people who fly easy mode are the only ones that fight. Or that you can only dogfight in certain planes.
after someone mentioned Midway, I said that I would rather have more people like Midway (who fly easy mode but actually want to fight), than the hordes of players in easy mode P51s who do nothing but put their nose down and run after one HO attempt. that's all.
I don't care if people challenge themselves in harder rides, or if they prefer to play the game more casually...I just want combat.
as for thrila, I suspect he'd :ahand you in any plane, but don't take my word for it...if you reckon he's setting himself up as a 'great ace' undeservedly, take him to the DA :aok
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And what is wrong with flying the spit14? If it is such an over modeled plane which can conduct unrealistic manoeuvers why are so few people flying it? Maybe it's a little more challenging than you think. I've flown several planes as my main ride in AH down the years, however you wont see me in a 38 or a jug for that matter, they hold no appeal to me. I would be surprised if more than a few people knew me from my days when i flew only the mossie. Rank does not matter to me, it is a by product of me having a few long weekends off work.
I fly the spit14 because i've wanted it unperked for years. I thought I had some good fights against you and some of your squad mates this weekend, clearly this wasn't the case for you.
I remember when you flew the Mossie. It was great fun watching you beat up over-confident dweebs in perk rides. I'm glad that you're still here, having fun and terrorizing the masses.
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A rough definition of a noob ride is something that is so easy to fight it takes zero skill to pose a risk to everyone. Clearly the Yak3 is the newest noob ride of AH. The frustration is everything is the Yak3, every where every time. Gone are the days in which you could up in a mid-war bird and have a fruitfull day mixing it up with late-war birds. Now, everything is disrupted by noobs in Yak3s.
I know, I know...the scourge will diminish over time. People will get bored of flying the newest noob ride. Begs the question about using perks to control the usage of something like this. A rolling, floating perk system so that when 100 people up 99 of them are not in Yak3s, without cost atleast.
In any case, I'll log for a few weeks and see what August brings. I see why people lose interest in the MA and only fly FSO or Scenarios. If I wanted this action I would sign up for an arcade game.
Flame away...
boo
Clearly you do not know what a "noob" actually is.
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(http://s3.amazonaws.com/spoonflower/public/design_thumbnails/0062/3641/rYak_cartoon_animal_preview.png)
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Okay ya Limeys so ya want to make this about me and Thrllia huh........fine. Here's the way I see it. Thrilla has twice as much experience in flight sims as I do. And most of that time flying trainers I.E. Spitfires I would suspect. Where as I have extremely limited time in any Limey POS plane. So I by default, should get a handicap just as it'd be done in golf. Because by your own admission he would mop the floor with my arse. Afterall, none of you would bet Tiger Woods in a head to head golf match would you? No of course not. That would be crazy talk.
The handicap being he flys a P40 and I get a P51 with 5k alt advantage in a best 2 out of 3 duel.
If I win Pervert you have to put "Uptown is my daddy" in your sig. If I lose I'll put "pervert is my daddy" in my sig. For a full year. So what do ya say fancy lads....is it a date?
edit: same deal for you Coombz
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I've been flying the P-38 a lot (for me) recently. While I love the plane for its history, for the MA, it doesn't seem to me to be in the same class as Spit 16's, P-51's, La-7's, Yak-3's, F4U's, or FW 190D-9's. Those planes are either faster or they outturn the P-38 or both. It isn't horrible compared to them, and it is a much better fighter than many others (P-40, for example, which for me is the hardest of all in the MA environment).
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Okay ya Limeys so ya want to make this about me and Thrllia huh........fine. Here's the way I see it. Thrilla has twice as much experience in flight sims as I do. And most of that time flying trainers I.E. Spitfires I would suspect. Where as I have extremely limited time in any Limey POS plane. So I by default, should get a handicap just as it'd be done in golf. Because by your own admission he would mop the floor with my arse. Afterall, none of you would bet Tiger Woods in a head to head golf match would you? No of course not. That would be crazy talk.
The handicap being he flys a P40 and I get a P51 with 5k alt advantage in a best 2 out of 3 duel.
If I win Pervert you have to put "Uptown is my daddy" in your sig. If I lose I'll put "pervert is my daddy" in my sig. For a full year. So what do ya say fancy lads....is it a date?
edit: same deal for you Coombz
come back and have another look at this thread when you're sober bud :angel:
you brought thrila up yourself, for god knows what reason. if you have a problem with him it's between the two of you *shrug*
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I've been flying the P-38 a lot (for me) recently. While I love the plane for its history, for the MA, it doesn't seem to me to be in the same class as Spit 16's, P-51's, La-7's, Yak-3's, F4U's, or FW 190D-9's. Those planes are either faster or they outturn the P-38 or both. It isn't horrible compared to them, and it is a much better fighter than many others (P-40, for example, which for me is the hardest of all in the MA environment).
A well driven 38 can kill all those planes you listed Brooke .. :) and I also know a player who can take a P40 into a 3v1 and come out the other side without a scratch :P
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I have a problem with anyone that fly spits...not just Thrilla. I think the plane is complete horsechit the way it flops around, goes from a dead stall to immediate turbo jet in less then a second flat. The way it gains E in a turn instead of losing it. I think they're over modeled and pretty much fly themselves. Thrilla just came to mind as he was the last person I tangled with flying one.
It pisses me off to no end that these guys with 10 or 15 years flight sim experience fly around in these magical spitfires clubbing the rest of us like baby seals. Way to really challenge yourselves. I'm not frikkin impressed.
And then when I speak my mind on it, you and Prevert start your DA troll crap. We all know what the outcome would be and that is precisely my point........why is a guy that's sooooo damn good still flying trainer planes if for no other reason than to get easy kills. Oh yeah I know. It's because he's British and just loves the plane that saved his country from the German's. Well so did the Hurr 1 but I don't see these guys flying those! Why?!...because they'd get beat every other sortie and you all know it. So go feed that crap to someone else.....I ain't buying it.
I'm sure Thrilla is a great guy. I always found him to be a nice guy during our run ins ......I just think his plane choice sucks and he doesn't want to challenge himself but would rather get easy kills instead.
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Guy who thinks P-51s and P-38s are challenging is lecturing a guy who flew Mossies exclusively for a long time about easymode fighters.
:rofl
You're acting the nationalistic clown there, uptown. Sounds like you've got quite the chip on your shoulder, don't like the idea that maybe American built iron isn't always the best tool for the job. Your choice of words makes it pretty clear you don't have the stick time in British aircraft to say anything about them.
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Guy who thinks P-51s and P-38s are challenging is lecturing a guy who flew Mossies exclusively for a long time about easymode fighters.
:rofl
You're acting the nationalistic clown there, uptown. Sounds like you've got quite the chip on your shoulder, don't like the idea that maybe American built iron isn't always the best tool for the job. Your choice of words makes it pretty clear you don't have the stick time in British aircraft to say anything about them.
Do you even play this game anymore or just troll the forums?
I never said anywhere 51s are challenging and do you deny Spitfires are easy mode?
Nationalistic? yeah probably. Clown? yeah sometimes.
And hell yeah I have a chip on my shoulder. I'm sick of everybody and their brother flying them ......
I think I'll go to the wish list and wish for them gone just to piss you off. :t Now I've said what I wanted to say about the matter. Leave me alone, I'm going to bed. (http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk121/TheAmish/Good_night.gif) (http://s279.photobucket.com/user/TheAmish/media/Good_night.gif.html)
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surprisingly, when I fly the easy mode yak3, spits are much less of a problem :D
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Uptown... lol...
Honestly, If I'm not mistaken he is from Europe. Possibly the UK. That is/was his nations plane. You fly 51s a lot if I'm not mistaken correct? You are an american. You would tend to fly your countries historic plane. Don't beat the guy up for doing the EXACT same thing as you... Plus that DA you offered is really unfair lol..
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I will pass on your erm challenge uptown I love when people drink and type :rofl
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A well driven 38 can kill all those planes you listed Brooke .. :) and I also know a player who can take a P40 into a 3v1 and come out the other side without a scratch :P
I agree that any well-flown plane (including a P-40) can kill another plane that is not as well flown; and any plane with the right circumstances or advantage can kill any other plane type. What I'm meaning here is similar pilot abilities, similar starting energy, etc. in the MA environment, where you have a mix of planes usually including Spit 16's, La-7's, P-51's, and now Yak-3's, etc. In that environment, while the P-38 isn't bad, I don't feel that the P-38 is as strong as those other planes.
I like the P-38 and the P-40 based on its history. In a scenario environment (more realistic and meeting historically acurate opponents), the P-40 is good. But a P-40 vs. a mix of late-war superplanes is at a large disadvantage typically.
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You fly 51s a lot if I'm not mistaken correct? You are an american. You would tend to fly your countries historic plane.
We Americans like to take all of the credit for the P-51, but the P-51 is half American (airframe) and half British (engine). :aok (Also, I think it was the British who named it "Mustang," although I'm not positive about that.)
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I have a problem with anyone that fly spits...not just Thrilla. I think the plane is complete horsechit the way it flops around, goes from a dead stall to immediate turbo jet in less then a second flat. The way it gains E in a turn instead of losing it. I think they're over modeled and pretty much fly themselves. Thrilla just came to mind as he was the last person I tangled with flying one.
It pisses me off to no end that these guys with 10 or 15 years flight sim experience fly around in these magical spitfires clubbing the rest of us like baby seals. Way to really challenge yourselves. I'm not frikkin impressed.
:lol
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Wow Uptown get over it bloody hell, im sure Thrila would kick your bellybutton in any ride too, cant you just accept the fact that we are brits and we like our planes, for some its not about skill or pawning the other guy for some its about enjoying the game and flying the planes you love the most. What about the guys in the brewsters and ki-43`s? you don't see us spit pilots coming on here moaning about them do you? its a game get over it.
If we was not british and we flew the spitfire then yes I could understand your argument but friggin hell dude this plane changed our history we want to fly it its not our fault its a bloody great plane is it???? would you be moaning if your p51 was as good in a turn fight? no I don't think you would........
Go ahead wish for it to be gone because it isn't going to go away. And your duel argument is ridiculous if you think its a trainer plane then you should face him in the DA no matter what the situation is after all your saying he is only that good because he is flying a spitty it doesn't matter how experienced he is or how experienced you are for that matter if he has been flying with a crutch for so long then you should kick his butt yeah? no matter what plane he is in.
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I won't lie a few months ago when I started I went for the spit 16, before I knew about the BBS or Vudu's videos. It was because of the fact I felt like it was working, then I started to learn and fly new aircraft and as of late have fallen for the KI-84 to me she is sexy, I am sure in time I will find a new ride something more challenging but until I feel I have grown old of the KI or bored of her ill keep her as my primary ride. now this is of course my opinion but I agree new players need a ride that won't kill them more then enemy's, this game is hard enough to learn as it is.
This man has taste. :salute
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:lol
Actually he hit the nail in the head. The perk/eny system should be reversed so that only noobs can fly the uber planes and the ones with skill would have a harder time to fly the uber planes. Noobs need the crutches, not the 15 year veteran. It would be cool if new players would fear the C202s and P40's knowing that there's a dangerous opponent most likely. Perhaps if after getting killed in a early war ride the vet could fly one sortie in a new ride for example...
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Actually he hit the nail in the head. The perk/eny system should be reversed so that only noobs can fly the uber planes and the ones with skill would have a harder time to fly the uber planes. Noobs need the crutches, not the 15 year veteran. It would be cool if new players would fear the C202s and P40's knowing that there's a dangerous opponent most likely.
Well, go ahead and devise a system that can actually and accurately determine who is skilled and who not.
And don't say "rank" :P
Concerning your edit while I wrote above:
Perhaps if after getting killed in a early war ride the vet could fly one sortie in a new ride for example...
When is someone a "vet"? account duration? Easy to fix, I will create a new one every tour. And beyond that, it will just be one silly sortie (spawn on vulched base in EW crate) followed by one "serious" sortie.
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Actually he hit the nail in the head. The perk/eny system should be reversed so that only noobs can fly the uber planes and the ones with skill would have a harder time to fly the uber planes. Noobs need the crutches, not the 15 year veteran. It would be cool if new players would fear the C202s and P40's knowing that there's a dangerous opponent most likely. Perhaps if after getting killed in a early war ride the vet could fly one sortie in a new ride for example...
And stop people from flying the planes they actually pay for errr no thanks ill just go play war thunder instead if that was the case.........and I hate that game.
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As a side note, since I started this whole affair...
I still think the Yak3 is a noob ride though cooler heads have prevailed an added rationale for noob rides. Attracting and keeping new players is a issue of importance to those of us who feast on noobs.
Second, I personally get a kick out of the fact that Brits seem confused. Some are in love with their tea drinking birds, namely the Spit. Why, I can only guess. The Few come to mind. So be it. Other Brits seem to 'run for the hills' and prefer German rides. If I had to guess this would be more easily resolved over warm beer at a pub in South London though they would likely end up castigating the Welch again, so maybe not.
Finally, I have conquered the pathetic Yak3 in my mighty A5. At least often enough to calm myself.
The final straw started in a classic 2 v 1. I was on the deck tied up with a 38 and Spit16. I had ruined one of the 38s engines, the other engine draining fluid of some sort. The Spit16 was going to nail me when one of my green friends zoomed by, changed the Spits mind for a fraction of a second and I reversed the Spit. Within moments I was going to kill the Spit then go vertical and finish the 38. This is when the Yak3 showed up to end the whole affair. It was the 4th or 5th 'on the deck' furball a Yak3 had ruined that day. Freak'n commies!
Anyway...as the Snailman noted, the pestilence of Yak3s is already diminishing. Like a case of the clap or herpes, shows up at all the wrong times, but for now is clearing up nicely.
boo
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I agree that any well-flown plane (including a P-40) can kill another plane that is not as well flown; and any plane with the right circumstances or advantage can kill any other plane type. What I'm meaning here is similar pilot abilities, similar starting energy, etc. in the MA environment, where you have a mix of planes usually including Spit 16's, La-7's, P-51's, and now Yak-3's, etc. In that environment, while the P-38 isn't bad, I don't feel that the P-38 is as strong as those other planes.
I like the P-38 and the P-40 based on its history. In a scenario environment (more realistic and meeting historically acurate opponents), the P-40 is good. But a P-40 vs. a mix of late-war superplanes is at a large disadvantage typically.
It was established by Karnak decree more than 24 hours ago that the 38 henceforth shall be known as E-Z mode. Your experience is hereby void, sir.
P-38 is well on the easy side of the average difficulty for a fighter in AH.
While I protested at the time, I'm finding that my will is breaking. Last night, I felt the constant compulsion to yawn while flying the newly established E-Z mode dweeb ride.
I will now fly the Mossie exclusively. :old: I will be checking Karnak's post history frequently so as to keep up with other rides that have entered the realm of dweebishness.
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Been a Yak Fanatic for 14 years....alone....now people whining about Yaks. :lol
<-- Another Yak fan since '04-- and yes, I find this rather amusing.
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I've kinda found 'em rather easy to kill. I chaulked it up to the somewhat average skill level of the typical pilot. I'm also fairly certain none of the Yak3s I've been engaged with so far have ever managed to hit me. :D
Just sayin'. ;)
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I've kinda found 'em rather easy to kill.
Especially when I fly one.. :lol Very easy. :D
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Wouldn't know...haven't upped one yet (at least not in LWMA).
;)
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It was established by Karnak decree more than 24 hours ago that the 38 henceforth shall be known as E-Z mode. Your experience is hereby void, sir.
While I protested at the time, I'm finding that my will is breaking. Last night, I felt the constant compulsion to yawn while flying the newly established E-Z mode dweeb ride.
I will now fly the Mossie exclusively. :old: I will be checking Karnak's post history frequently so as to keep up with other rides that have entered the realm of dweebishness.
:rofl
I didn't say the P-38 was easymode. I said it was on the easier side of the middle. If you put all of AH's fighters on a numberline with 72 places and put the easiest, probably the Spit XVI, on the #1 spot and the hardest, probably P-40C, on the #72 spot and then all of the others ranged between them in order of difficulty, the P-38L and P-38J would be closer to the Spit XVI than to the P-40C. The P-38G would be closer to the P-40C though. I did not mean they are in the top spot. Mossie is probably pretty close to the middle, but I'd guess it ends up closer to the Spit XVI than the P-40C, it is definitely easier than the P-38G.
P-38 fans just love to downplay how capable the P-38 is, as do Bf109 and Fw190 fans of their rides. P-40 fans get the real bragging rights in my opinion.
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:rofl
I didn't say the P-38 was easymode. . . . but I'd guess it ends up closer to the Spit XVI than the P-40C, it is definitely easier than the P-38G.
P-38 fans just love to downplay how capable the P-38 is, as do Bf109 and Fw190 fans of their rides. P-40 fans get the real bragging rights in my opinion.
As you know from Mossies, its not how easy a P38 is to fly it is magnetic attraction to those damn red icons that makes a big twin plane a challenge to survive outside a 1v1.
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Okay ya Limeys so ya want to make this about me and Thrllia huh........fine. Here's the way I see it. Thrilla has twice as much experience in flight sims as I do. And most of that time flying trainers I.E. Spitfires I would suspect. Where as I have extremely limited time in any Limey POS plane. So I by default, should get a handicap just as it'd be done in golf. Because by your own admission he would mop the floor with my arse. Afterall, none of you would bet Tiger Woods in a head to head golf match would you? No of course not. That would be crazy talk.
The handicap being he flys a P40 and I get a P51 with 5k alt advantage in a best 2 out of 3 duel.
If I win Pervert you have to put "Uptown is my daddy" in your sig. If I lose I'll put "pervert is my daddy" in my sig. For a full year. So what do ya say fancy lads....is it a date?
edit: same deal for you Coombz
Bring me the face palm!
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(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk121/TheAmish/mj3h4k.jpg) (http://s279.photobucket.com/user/TheAmish/media/mj3h4k.jpg.html)
Well I may of had too much Midnight Moon on the way home from AdventureLand yesterday. I do love the British folks across the pond and I'll try to embrace their silly little fighter planes from this day forth. :o
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I didn't say the P-38 was easymode. I said it was on the easier side of the middle. If you put all of AH's fighters on a numberline with 72 places and put the easiest, probably the Spit XVI, on the #1 spot and the hardest, probably P-40C, on the #72 spot and then all of the others ranged between them in order of difficulty, the P-38L and P-38J would be closer to the Spit XVI than to the P-40C. The P-38G would be closer to the P-40C though.
Perhaps it's a terminology thing. Certainly the P-38s are far more effective in the LWMA environment than the P-40s. But I do think that 38s are more difficult to fly well, particularly compared to the P-40s. P-38 flap use, for instance, is different from the drop-'em-and-pull-high-Gs technique used in so many other fighters, particularly the 109s; and rudder use in turns is more important in 38s than in most other planes. Once mastered I think the 38 is one of the most effective fighters in the game, albeit a huge target.
- oldman
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:rofl
I didn't say the P-38 was easymode. I said it was on the easier side of the middle. If you put all of AH's fighters on a numberline with 72 places and put the easiest, probably the Spit XVI, on the #1 spot and the hardest, probably P-40C, on the #72 spot and then all of the others ranged between them in order of difficulty, the P-38L and P-38J would be closer to the Spit XVI than to the P-40C. The P-38G would be closer to the P-40C though. I did not mean they are in the top spot. Mossie is probably pretty close to the middle, but I'd guess it ends up closer to the Spit XVI than the P-40C, it is definitely easier than the P-38G.
P-38 fans just love to downplay how capable the P-38 is, as do Bf109 and Fw190 fans of their rides. P-40 fans get the real bragging rights in my opinion.
You said:
P-38 is well on the easy side of the average difficulty for a fighter in AH.
I assumed "well on" to be an intensifier. Basically it read like you were saying the 38 is easy mode but in a much less confrontational way. If I misinterpreted this, I apologize. :)
Are we talking about capability or ease of transitioning for a newer pilot (difficulty)? If capability is your criteria, I can't disagree. The 38 is one of the more capable planes. It's strengths are also it's weaknesses. It does a lot of things well enough to kill in lots of different ways, but it doesn't have very many (if any) 'crutch' attributes that the pilot can count on to pull him out of a jam. The easier planes in the game all have one or more outstanding traits they can fall back on to get them out of trouble.
So the 38 is capable. The Mossie is as well. Batfink absolutely destroyed my 38 with his Mossie in the DA. But just because he and a few other Mossie pilots could do the same to the majority of AH pilots, it doesn't mean the Mossie is easy. It's not. To be "well on the easy side of average difficulty", I think the plane needs to have a healthy dose of mistake forgiveness. The 38 just doesn't have that. If you make the wrong move or don't execute fast enough, you're a large floating target that can barely dive away from a Hurricane.
Steering this back to the OP, the Yak3 is probably well on the easy side of average difficulty because it does possess attributes that allow to get by with a mistake or two and still win the fight.
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I agree with Karnak's thoughts of, if you put planes on a scale from 1 to 72, that the P-40C is 72, something like a Spit 14 at the 1 end, and the P-38 near the middle, but in the upper 50%.
Triton puts it well, too, not inconsistent with that, and this is how I think of it, too:
It does a lot of things well enough to kill in lots of different ways, but it doesn't have very many (if any) 'crutch' attributes that the pilot can count on to pull him out of a jam. The easier planes in the game all have one or more outstanding traits they can fall back on to get them out of trouble.
With regard to the Mossie, I've flown that around recently and am not very good in it. I seem to get taken out frequently by pilot wounds from a sprinkling of MG rounds that in most other planes would have been inconsequential. There are some folks who are very good in it, of course, but I don't think of it as an easy plane to fight in.
I suspect that popularity in the MA correlates somewhat with how good the plane is in the MA.
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We Americans like to take all of the credit for the P-51, but the P-51 is half American (airframe) and half British (engine). :aok (Also, I think it was the British who named it "Mustang," although I'm not positive about that.)
Sorry :)
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(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk121/TheAmish/mj3h4k.jpg) (http://s279.photobucket.com/user/TheAmish/media/mj3h4k.jpg.html)
Well I may of had too much Midnight Moon on the way home from AdventureLand yesterday. I do love the British folks across the pond and I'll try to embrace their silly little fighter planes from this day forth. :o
You have to put "pervert is my daddy" in your sig for a full week as punishment :old:
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(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk121/TheAmish/mj3h4k.jpg) (http://s279.photobucket.com/user/TheAmish/media/mj3h4k.jpg.html)
Well I may of had too much Midnight Moon on the way home from AdventureLand yesterday. I do love the British folks across the pond and I'll try to embrace their silly little fighter planes from this day forth. :o
It seems that Pervert is in Belfast. Now, we all recognize that the Irish truly love their British brethren (cough, cough)... However, being of direct Irish lineage, I can state that the Irish would rather be called almost anything, but "British"...
Thus, for that offense alone, you should include "Pervert is my Daddy" in your sig, for at least a week....
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I have a problem with anyone that fly spits...not just Thrilla.
lolololololololololololol :banana:
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A rough definition of a noob ride is something that is so easy to fight it takes zero skill to pose a risk to everyone. Clearly the Yak3 is the newest noob ride of AH. The frustration is everything is the Yak3, every where every time. Gone are the days in which you could up in a mid-war bird and have a fruitfull day mixing it up with late-war birds. Now, everything is disrupted by noobs in Yak3s.
I know, I know...the scourge will diminish over time. People will get bored of flying the newest noob ride. Begs the question about using perks to control the usage of something like this. A rolling, floating perk system so that when 100 people up 99 of them are not in Yak3s, without cost atleast.
In any case, I'll log for a few weeks and see what August brings. I see why people lose interest in the MA and only fly FSO or Scenarios. If I wanted this action I would sign up for an arcade game.
Flame away...
boo
:rolleyes:
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As a side note, since I started this whole affair...
I still think the Yak3 is a noob ride though cooler heads have prevailed an added rationale for noob rides. Attracting and keeping new players is a issue of importance to those of us who feast on noobs.
Second, I personally get a kick out of the fact that Brits seem confused. Some are in love with their tea drinking birds, namely the Spit. Why, I can only guess. The Few come to mind. So be it. Other Brits seem to 'run for the hills' and prefer German rides. If I had to guess this would be more easily resolved over warm beer at a pub in South London though they would likely end up castigating the Welch again, so maybe not.
Finally, I have conquered the pathetic Yak3 in my mighty A5. At least often enough to calm myself.
The final straw started in a classic 2 v 1. I was on the deck tied up with a 38 and Spit16. I had ruined one of the 38s engines, the other engine draining fluid of some sort. The Spit16 was going to nail me when one of my green friends zoomed by, changed the Spits mind for a fraction of a second and I reversed the Spit. Within moments I was going to kill the Spit then go vertical and finish the 38. This is when the Yak3 showed up to end the whole affair. It was the 4th or 5th 'on the deck' furball a Yak3 had ruined that day. Freak'n commies!
Anyway...as the Snailman noted, the pestilence of Yak3s is already diminishing. Like a case of the clap or herpes, shows up at all the wrong times, but for now is clearing up nicely.
boo
:rolleyes:
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I would like to reiterate that i don't believe for 1 second the spit 14 is over modelled, in fact i think you may well be the first person to even suggest this uptown. Nor is it a trainer plane, easy mode or even magical. :D
I believe the spit 14 is a challenge largely due to its poor handling at low speed, which i guess is why few people fly it. The spit 14 is not in the top 20 for no. of kills this tour and also has a k/d of less than 1.0. I can understand why you may think it is easy mode if you have never really flown it or tried to push it to its limits. The spit 14 has poor directional stability; the nose oscillates with small inputs and suffers from high torque with noticeable gyroscopic effects. I never feel that i have positive control over the nose, it tends to bounce around when any input is added making it a poor gunnery platform.
The poor stability only gets worse as speeds progress below 160 mph; the spit14 really isn't a pleasant plane to fly at slow speeds at all. By all means if someone is going to fly it between the ranges of 200 - 400 mph it is a nice plane, but there are better planes for that. No doubt there shall be people who disagree with me on my opinion of the spit 14.
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh33/thrila/spitfirea1.jpg)
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It seems that Pervert is in Belfast. Now, we all recognize that the Irish truly love their British brethren (cough, cough)... However, being of direct Irish lineage, I can state that the Irish would rather be called almost anything, but "British"...
Thus, for that offense alone, you should include "Pervert is my Daddy" in your sig, for at least a week....
:lol oh you're a funny guy.
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<-- Another Yak fan since '04-- and yes, I find this rather amusing.
:salute thndregg :cheers:
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I haven't had trouble with a yak of any type yet....
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I haven't had trouble with a yak of any type yet....
Well, you don't even have 4 hours of log-in time this tour. That, and more than half of your 25 kills have been in a 262 or 109K4...
That said, if you run into my Yak-3, you'll have trouble a-plenty, if you stick around, that is.
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Well, you don't even have 4 hours of log-in time this tour. That, and more than half of your 25 kills have been in a 262 or 109K4...
That said, if you run into my Yak-3, you'll have trouble a-plenty, if you stick around, that is.
Maybe in his limited time he has not come across a Yak, thus the yet at the end of his statement. :headscratch:
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Well, you don't even have 4 hours of log-in time this tour. That, and more than half of your 25 kills have been in a 262 or 109K4...
That said, if you run into my Yak-3, you'll have trouble a-plenty, if you stick around, that is.
:) Ok
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I've run into them a lot, and they seem to be antigrav powered. :) They aren't undefeatable, but seem to be excellent fighters, at least at MA altitudes.
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I don't think spits are noob rides (Spit 16 excepted), purely because they are slow and never hold the initiative.
If you get killed by a spitfire... its your fault.
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never hold the initiative
If they (them, whoever) can't hold the initiative in a Spitfire XVI? its not the fault of the plane and likely it would have made no difference what they rolled. That's nothing new though...
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I used to see the "yak" icon in the MA and groan simply because I knew it would invariably be a 9U which would do nothing except make ineffective bnz runs at me, they were even more boring to fight than P-51s. In a 1v1 I'd have no chance of killing it but equally it would have none of killing me. Now though its usually a Yak-3 which is much more dangerous to my F6F but a hell of a lot more fun to fight. The more people who fly "uber" dogfighters like Spit 16s and Yak-3s the better from my POV.
Having said that, I've still not seen all that many Yaks around. Probably because I fly mainly defensive sorties and they don't have long legs.
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One thing I'll say about the Yak3 is that it's generated more "buzz" than any other plane added to the set since I can remember.
Too bad there's no solid data available for the single seater Me 410. That'd be P-38/MossVI-ish flight performance with 2xMK103 and 2xMG151/20
I fly other fighters a lot, but fly the 38 the most. I think that gives me a good perspective.
I don't think the 38 is the hardest plane to learn, but I think you're understating the time you need to be proficient in it. It does many things well but nothing really outstanding. That leads a noob to get 'stuck' during a fight. Ask me how I know. Also, the sheer size of the 38 usually means when you do get stuck and make a mistake, the other guy isn't likely to miss. You don't realize how much this matters until you go back to a smaller fighter, make a similar mistake, and the guy misses. I can usually get by with more mistakes in smaller fighters.
*Edit - I think that's one of the reasons I've had such fun in the Yak3. It's like going from driving a 1 ton dually pickup to a two seater sports car. :lol
Ok, and I'm saying this as someone who's consistently (8+years) flown one of those ridiculously handicapped BnZ planes in TnB fights: the 38 is a piece of cake (no torque, very good roll authority at high speed, outstanding zoom, fowlers, nose guns, "laser" ballistics, plenty of ammo, airbrakes (yes, fractions of a second difference in who slows down faster is life/death in knife fight)) once you get used to the weak rudder, very thin departure margin and (compared to most other planes) how peculiarly responsive the nose is (almost undoubtedly THE plane to demonstrate joystick/rudder potentiometers' "not good enough" granularity).
You only get paid back for efforts once you reach a relatively high floor of piloting skill, but once you do the pay back is huge. Again I'm saying this as someone who sweated stall fights in the Ta 152 and spent ridiculous amount of hours in front of a video game trying to connect 400-600y MK108 deflections. "Finding" your aim with the 38's nose 50s means utterly ridiculous frenzy of hit sprites on targets within 600, regardless how extreme the deflections. Nevermind relatively static targets out to 800.
The 38 does a lot of things well enough to kill in lots of different ways, but it doesn't have very many (if any) 'crutch' attributes that the pilot can count on to pull him out of a jam.
No torque + fowlers, centerline 4x50, great acceleration from standstill. If that doesn't make a difference then you don't know how to fly/fight.
a healthy dose of mistake forgiveness. The 38 just doesn't have that. If you make the wrong move or don't execute fast enough, you're a large floating target that can barely dive away from a Hurricane.
From a Hurricane?
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So, what is the definition of an easy plane?
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So, what is the definition of an easy plane?
the plane that you want fewer player to fly.
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the plane that you want fewer player to fly.
Ahhhhh, the 190s then :D
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... like the guy on ch200 "what's the best plane??"
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Excellent post, moot. :)
I agree that the 38 has plenty to offer, but it's status as a 'Jack of all Trades' is paradoxical. The biggest strength of the 38 is also it's biggest weakness. It does everything well enough to try, but that doesn't mean you should.
I had a big point for point response to some of what you've said, but I'll spare everyone that. A lot of that comes down to the minutia of the situation. My point to Karnak was the 38 is capable, but not 'easy' to learn.
The only point I will argue against is your comment on dive brakes. The 38L doesn't have dive brakes, it has dive recovery flaps that don't retard speed at all. If you meant "brakes" as in it forces overshoots easily, I can't really agree. I've had mixed results with most of my success probably being the result of the other guy screwing up. Other planes seem to force overshoots much easier.
Ok, and I'm saying this as someone who's consistently (8+years) flown one of those ridiculously handicapped BnZ planes in TnB fights: the 38 is a piece of cake
I'll briefly hop on your ankle and say you're not an average pilot. What comes easy to you is not easy for the vast majority of us. /ankle off
You only get paid back for efforts once you reach a relatively high floor of piloting skill, but once you do the pay back is huge.
I think you and I agree on this, actually. The 38 in the hands of someone who knows it and how to make the best use of it in any situation will be successful. But it doesn't really come that easy to everyone. If it did, you'd see a lot more 38 drivers mixing it up on the deck.
From a Hurricane?
My way of saying that in most cases, diving away isn't an option for the 38.
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But a P-40 vs. a mix of late-war superplanes is at a large disadvantage typically.
This is what makes it fun.... after all these years... the 39D too ;)
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There are only a four of aircraft I have landed eight air-to-air kills with, the N1K2-J, Typhoon Mk Ib, Mosquito Mk VI and P-38L. The Mosquito isn't really in the same category as I've flown it so many times that my opportunities to land eight kills have been higher thus even though I did it twice in it, the percentage of sorties that resulted in an eight kill landing is much lower.
If I found it easy to have that success in the P-38, and there were other very successful sorties too, it can't be that hard. It certainly is harder than the Spitfires, other than the I and XIV, and N1K2-J, but that doesn't make it harder than most.
Only once have I landed more than eight air-to-air kills and that was twelve kills in an A6M5b. That sortie was an aberration for me as ever shot I took seemed to go home, even insane deflection shots.
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It seems that Pervert is in Belfast. Now, we all recognize that the Irish truly love their British brethren (cough, cough)... However, being of direct Irish lineage, I can state that the Irish would rather be called almost anything, but "British"...
Thus, for that offense alone, you should include "Pervert is my Daddy" in your sig, for at least a week....
Absolutely!! :lol
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We Americans like to take all of the credit for the P-51, but the P-51 is half American (airframe) and half British (engine). :aok (Also, I think it was the British who named it "Mustang," although I'm not positive about that.)
There are 4 versions we don't have that are all American. Yes it was named by the British, Mustang I with 8 guns, 8x30 or 4x50 and 4x30, then there was the P-51 4x20mm, the A36 6x50 and eggs, dive flaps, Ground Ponder, and the P-51A 4x50 sleek Alison machine also very capable.......... :lol .......Maybe... we will get them some day :frown:
ALL American,
:cheers:
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There are only a four of aircraft I have landed eight air-to-air kills with, the N1K2-J, Typhoon Mk Ib, Mosquito Mk VI and P-38L. The Mosquito isn't really in the same category as I've flown it so many times that my opportunities to land eight kills have been higher thus even though I did it twice in it, the percentage of sorties that resulted in an eight kill landing is much lower.
If I found it easy to have that success in the P-38, and there were other very successful sorties too, it can't be that hard. It certainly is harder than the Spitfires, other than the I and XIV, and N1K2-J, but that doesn't make it harder than most.
Only once have I landed more than eight air-to-air kills and that was twelve kills in an A6M5b. That sortie was an aberration for me as ever shot I took seemed to go home, even insane deflection shots.
Landing kills isn't the same as fighting in it. I've landed 9 kills in a 38G before just picking a furball. I don't really consider that awesome 38 flying, as all I was really taking advantage of is the gun package and target fixation by the cons.
I think we're moving the goalposts a bit here. There's a huge difference between being easy to fly and kill with and being an effective fighter for someone who takes the time to learn and use the platform. The 38 falls squarely in the latter category, imo. I think it does with the majority of AH players, too.
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It seems that Pervert is in Belfast. Now, we all recognize that the Irish truly love their British brethren (cough, cough)... However, being of direct Irish lineage, I can state that the Irish would rather be called almost anything, but "British"...
Thus, for that offense alone, you should include "Pervert is my Daddy" in your sig, for at least a week....
Your ignorance is showing...........
But it's not for here..........
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This is what makes it fun.... after all these years... the 39D too ;)
I do well in the P-39D and have flown that a lot. I think it's quite a capable plane. It's reasonably fast down low, small and hard to hit, turns actually quite well, handles well at speed, climbs OK down low. The P-40 seems a lot more difficult (except in scenarios, where it's fighting its historical opponents and is good at it).
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There are 4 versions we don't have that are all American. Yes it was named by the British, Mustang I with 8 guns, 8x30 or 4x50 and 4x30, then there was the P-51 4x20mm, the A36 6x50 and eggs, dive flaps, Ground Ponder, and the P-51A 4x50 sleek Alison machine also very capable.......... :lol .......Maybe... we will get them some day :frown:
ALL American,
:cheers:
True, but there weren't many of those compared to the Merlin-engine ones. Still, it's probably better for me to say that the P-51B and D are British and American. :aok
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Landing kills isn't the same as fighting in it. I've landed 9 kills in a 38G before just picking a furball. I don't really consider that awesome 38 flying, as all I was really taking advantage of is the gun package and target fixation by the cons.
Sure, but that wasn't the kind of kills those eight were. They were obtained in a canyon brawl, not picks.
[quote[I think we're moving the goalposts a bit here. There's a huge difference between being easy to fly and kill with and being an effective fighter for someone who takes the time to learn and use the platform. The 38 falls squarely in the latter category, imo. I think it does with the majority of AH players, too.[/quote]
By that rational almost all of the fighters in AH fall into the latter category. I don't see it as black and white, but more as a progression.
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Excellent post, moot. :)
I agree that the 38 has plenty to offer, but it's status as a 'Jack of all Trades' is paradoxical. The biggest strength of the 38 is also it's biggest weakness. It does everything well enough to try, but that doesn't mean you should.
I had a big point for point response to some of what you've said, but I'll spare everyone that. A lot of that comes down to the minutia of the situation. My point to Karnak was the 38 is capable, but not 'easy' to learn.
The only point I will argue against is your comment on dive brakes. The 38L doesn't have dive brakes, it has dive recovery flaps that don't retard speed at all. If you meant "brakes" as in it forces overshoots easily, I can't really agree. I've had mixed results with most of my success probably being the result of the other guy screwing up. Other planes seem to force overshoots much easier.
I'll briefly hop on your ankle and say you're not an average pilot. What comes easy to you is not easy for the vast majority of us. /ankle off
I think you and I agree on this, actually. The 38 in the hands of someone who knows it and how to make the best use of it in any situation will be successful. But it doesn't really come that easy to everyone. If it did, you'd see a lot more 38 drivers mixing it up on the deck.
My way of saying that in most cases, diving away isn't an option for the 38.
I made a new thread for this tangent.
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Your ignorance is showing...........
But it's not for here..........
Not as much as your cluelessness.... I'm always amazed at how much eludes people sometimes.
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True, but there weren't many of those compared to the Merlin-engine ones. Still, it's probably better for me to say that the P-51B and D are British and American. :aok
Also rather ironically, the symbol of American air power was paid for by the Air Ministry. Britain paid for the research, development and production of the Mustang because we needed fighters. So North American said they would build a new plane and production line for the same cost as opening a P-40 line. So Britain said, o.k, and paid for the project. Then the RAF pilots gave feedback saying that the Allison was no good at the higher altitudes needed for modern day fighters and that the armament was a bit light so it was condemned to low level PR missions. Then an RAF officer said, "what happens if we put a Spitfire Mk IX engine in this". And there you have the P-51B.
British money, British engines, British pilots and American aircraft designers created the greatest fighter aircraft in American history.
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I just came back after a few months sabbatical.I noticed the blog on the Yak3,and I decided to give it a try.In my opinion it would be perked if it wasn't for it's short clip!I have to sqrew up really bad to get killed in it,which I'm perfectly capable of!I will probably fly it 90% of the time,as it makes the game fun for me,and makes me very conservative with my shot selection!All of you naysayers that think the Yak3 is over modeled,just look at the Brewster,Me163,and a lot of others that flying way above their real life ability!
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In AH it seems to be a magic machine, it can make 6 reversals while I just fly straight and level at 350mph and still catch me in a TA152.
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In AH it seems to be a magic machine, it can make 6 reversals while I just fly straight and level at 350mph and still catch me in a TA152.
Film please.
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I just came back after a few months sabbatical.I noticed the blog on the Yak3,and I decided to give it a try.In my opinion it would be perked if it wasn't for it's short clip!I have to sqrew up really bad to get killed in it,which I'm perfectly capable of!I will probably fly it 90% of the time,as it makes the game fun for me,and makes me very conservative with my shot selection!All of you naysayers that think the Yak3 is over modeled,just look at the Brewster,Me163,and a lot of others that flying way above their real life ability!
Short clip AND short legs, AND no ord, AND poor low speed roll, poor low speed torque effects, barely useful flaps that only pop at 150...
Other than target profile and a little speed, the Spit 16 still holds all the cards. The LA7 offers speed and firepower at least a couple notches above the Yak3 and is not perked. Even late model 109s can give it a run for its money on the deck turning where the -3 is strongest due to fowler flaps at 200(?) and better stability. Above 10k, climb is still decent but with notable decrease in turn performance.
Overall I think it is a potent but fairly awkward bird to fly.
1. It doesn't have uber turn characteristics to survive TnB vs Zekes, Brews or Spits. It is competitive with the Ki-84 and N1K before flaps factor in however.
2. It doesn't have the speed to get away from the Pony, Typhs, K4s and Doras.
3. It does climb well at low alt making it a good energy fighter and is best flown like a jug; however it lacks good elevator authority at speed and has insufficient firepower and ammo to consistently make high speed snapshots.
I also suspect that the damage model got nerfed with the last patch. What was comparable to the FM2 in toughness now seems more in the range of a Pony, which is probably where it belongs anyway. :cry
It's a very good plane and I've flown it more than any other this tour but 18 ENY is about right...
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^^^
An accurate depiction but fails to mention..
1. It has no ashtray.
2. It has no cup holder.
3. Not one bullet hole is covered under warranty.
Bah! No wonder they are giving them away.
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Hopefully the fad will die but I don't think so. Since it's introduction it seems every furball I fly over is Yaks and Spiteens with a couple 109s and Nikis.
I think it will become one of the on the deck furball planes of choice from now on.
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Is this thread STILL going? Wow. You'd think that somehow the Yak-3 (or even the 9U) could carry 3000 lbs of ord, spray and pray without worry of ammo, have 400 mph speed at under 15k, fly for an hour at full throttle w/o drop tanks, have great handling characteristics, AND be perk free... oh wait, that describes the P51D perfectly.
Seriously folks... complaining about the Yak-3 as being a "manifestation of noobs", etc, is rather weak. I say it is rather nice to see something other than the P51D, La7, Spit16, etc. It is easy to fly, not so easy to earn kills with. Find something worth while to address. k? Thanks. ;)
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I say it is rather nice to see something other than the P51D, La7, Spit16, etc.
I haven't had such good fortune:
Air to Air fights:
Versus P-51D: 39/9
Versus La7: 3/2
Versus Spit16: 3/4
Versus Yak-3: 1/1
The P-51D is still the most popular chariot of the eunuchs. If you check the stats for the current tour, the 51D has more kills than the La7 and Spit16 combined. Same as it ever was.
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Is this thread STILL going? Wow. You'd think that somehow the Yak-3 (or even the 9U) could carry 3000 lbs of ord, spray and pray without worry of ammo, have 400 mph speed at under 15k, fly for an hour at full throttle w/o drop tanks, have great handling characteristics, AND be perk free... oh wait, that describes the P51D perfectly.
Seriously folks... complaining about the Yak-3 as being a "manifestation of noobs", etc, is rather weak. I say it is rather nice to see something other than the P51D, La7, Spit16, etc. It is easy to fly, not so easy to earn kills with. Find something worth while to address. k? Thanks. ;)
lol I agree +1
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Flying anything under 15 eny has become so incredibly boring I have no desire to do it anymore.
Im not a score guy but a lot of people are. To bad they cant come up with some kind of formula that would rank up players higher when they use high eny aircraft successfully. It would be a more interesting LWA if they did. Ive seen some players fly against 4 or 5 enemies so well, while in high eny aircraft, that when finally shot down I'd say to myself "to bad they cant get credit for that piece of flying".
The Yak-3 will not end up the Soviet P-51. It will take its place besides the 9, tho it will probably end up being flown more then the 9U. I myself like the 9U better but the 3 was one of the more worthwhile builds Ive seen. Its a fine air craft.
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Also rather ironically, the symbol of American air power was paid for by the Air Ministry. Britain paid for the research, development and production of the Mustang because we needed fighters. So North American said they would build a new plane and production line for the same cost as opening a P-40 line. So Britain said, o.k, and paid for the project. Then the RAF pilots gave feedback saying that the Allison was no good at the higher altitudes needed for modern day fighters and that the armament was a bit light so it was condemned to low level PR missions. Then an RAF officer said, "what happens if we put a Spitfire Mk IX engine in this". And there you have the P-51B.
British money, British engines, British pilots and American aircraft designers created the greatest fighter aircraft in American history.
I got proper abuse for stating this :old:
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I got proper abuse for stating this :old:
Harsh. That's not right. That's like some violation of your rights, like as a person or something. Isn't it, though?
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I flew the yak-3 last night for the first time... it has some rather nasty characteristics once the flaps are deployed.
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I flew the yak-3 last night for the first time... it has some rather nasty characteristics once the flaps are deployed.
That's why I try to fly it like a baby jug. If kept between 250 and 400 you're really well off, but then again that goes for most fighters...
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Is this thread STILL going? Wow. You'd think that somehow the Yak-3 (or even the 9U) could carry 3000 lbs of ord, spray and pray without worry of ammo, have 400 mph speed at under 15k, fly for an hour at full throttle w/o drop tanks, have great handling characteristics, AND be perk free... oh wait, that describes the P51D perfectly.
Seriously folks... complaining about the Yak-3 as being a "manifestation of noobs", etc, is rather weak. I say it is rather nice to see something other than the P51D, La7, Spit16, etc. It is easy to fly, not so easy to earn kills with. Find something worth while to address. k? Thanks. ;)
:aok
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I flew the yak-3 last night for the first time... it has some rather nasty characteristics once the flaps are deployed.
Sounds like you were turning left..... It's a squirrel going left with flaps. That's because you're battling torque. It's the exact opposite of a 109. Instead, try forcing the fight to the right. The Yak-3 is far more stable turning right, with and without flaps.
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Is this thread STILL going? Wow. You'd think that somehow the Yak-3 (or even the 9U) could carry 3000 lbs of ord, spray and pray without worry of ammo, have 400 mph speed at under 15k, fly for an hour at full throttle w/o drop tanks, have great handling characteristics, AND be perk free... oh wait, that describes the P51D perfectly.
Seriously folks... complaining about the Yak-3 as being a "manifestation of noobs", etc, is rather weak. I say it is rather nice to see something other than the P51D, La7, Spit16, etc. It is easy to fly, not so easy to earn kills with. Find something worth while to address. k? Thanks. ;)
I pity thee for clearly, someone is holding a gun to thy head when thou dost log on to these forums! The longevity of this thread is due to the fact that it, like the greatest magnitude of forum topics, be driven by the collective tribunal questioning of "how much respect doth we bestow upon those who fly aircraft X?" Prithee sir, why shouldst thou mock this, most holy of BBS ceremonies? Let it lie in peace, I beseech you, and taint it no more by thy vain ignorance of the true nature of these solemn proceedings!
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I flew the yak-3 last night for the first time... it has some rather nasty characteristics once the flaps are deployed.
It's actually pretty decent after you get used to it. Took me 5 or 6 DA matches to learn that this thing floats. It's like going into a Spitfire stall where you float upside down on your back but...somehow controllable. Also, firewalling the throttle from 0 to 100 while under ~120mph will cause you to snap stall.
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Also rather ironically, the symbol of American air power was paid for by the Air Ministry. Britain paid for the research, development and production of the Mustang because we needed fighters.
British money, British engines, British pilots and American aircraft designers created the greatest fighter aircraft in American history.
Oh go on, take credit for the Mustang, you know you want to.
Um, British pilots didn't create anything and Brits didn't pay for "research" or "development". They asked for P-40s.
NA designers created a top notch design in less time than it would have taken to re-tool for the p-40 and the Brits bought it. The ONLY thing Brits can take credit for, the Merlin, is debatable. It was an American officer that pushed the change to a Merlin through, Y'ALL turned down the Merlin powered Stang.
And not to say Merlin wasn't a great engine, but don't think the Mustang needed your engine to be great. What it needed was politicians and penny pinching brass to get out of the way of designers who knew what they were doing...
http://www.warbirdsforum.com/topic/2518-allison-versus-merlin-what-if/
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Oh go on, take credit for the Mustang, you know you want to.
Um, British pilots didn't create anything and Brits didn't pay for "research" or "development". They asked for P-40s.
NA designers created a top notch design in less time than it would have taken to re-tool for the p-40 and the Brits bought it. The ONLY thing Brits can take credit for, the Merlin, is debatable. It was an American officer that pushed the change to a Merlin through, Y'ALL turned down the Merlin powered Stang.
And not to say Merlin wasn't a great engine, but don't think the Mustang needed your engine to be great. What it needed was politicians and penny pinching brass to get out of the way of designers who knew what they were doing...
http://www.warbirdsforum.com/topic/2518-allison-versus-merlin-what-if/
No interest in the topic, just thought it was very funny him typing that got your back up :rofl the what ifs?? :rofl
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Sometimes a run isn't a run though.
I am not that good, but while I'll fight to the death I also like to have a sporting chance. On three occasions that I can think of I have had situations where a higher, more agile, but slower, fighter engaged me while I was in the Mossie. In all cases, a C.205 and Spitfire Mk IX in the first and a Ki-84 and an F6F on the other two, I tangled briefly before losing any chance to get guns on the other guy(s) so I put the nose down and did what probably looked to the other guy like I was running, but all I was doing was trying to reset the fight to the point where I might be able to get guns on them. In both cases I turned to fight again once I had enough separation or was able to get terrain cover to obscure my turn. I did not run to friendlies or ack, nor did I wait for the other guy(s) to give up and turn away. I got the C.205, losing my #2 engine in the fight with the Spit IX withdrawing and I lost to both the Ki-84 and F6F.
My point is that sometimes the other guy may be honorably "running".
I will grant that is probably the minority.
This.
Running isnt always running. If your in a D9 against a good turning plane low you cant go more then a few turns and expect to come out on top very often. You need to extend to get some E back. Unfortunately the person your fighting will often be 400-600 right behind you. Turning at that point is often suicide. I usually (on the rare occasion Im not being chased by 6 people) will extend to 1.0 to 1.5 out and get a bit more alt then 200 Ft off the deck just so I can have some maneuvering room.
Now I cant blame the person giving chase because I would too and anything within 600 is within my kill range. But you rarely see me running all the way to base ack. And when I do its usually because of low fuel or ammo. Most other times I'm headed in the opposite direction.
In some cases my running might be part of a larger ploy. That being to occupy as many of the enemy as possible for as long as possible. I do this when one of my bases is under heavy attack and my side is finding itself at a disadvantage with both the number of players and the alt of those which they have to contend.
Players reactions to certain circumstances are as predictable as the sun rise. I know if I zoom in near their base and pop a couple I start to attract a lot of attention and can get a whole bunch to follow me like a school of fish all clamoring for the kill. there my intent is simply to survive as long as possible while keeping as many as possible interested. If I can occupy 5 or 6. There is that many less my side has to contend with. It also draws those numbers closer to the ground so they dont have quite the alt advantage they would have had otherwise. This gives my side a chance to recover and go on the offensive. If you take notice. Im often drawing you deeper into your own country or out to sea rather then to my own base.
If there a good number chasing me. yea I'll run. Right up to the point where only 1 or two are still giving chase. Then I'll turn and kill them
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I find at this point I really like flying the Yak-3 AND hunting it in non-Yak fighters.
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I pity thee for clearly, someone is holding a gun to thy head when thou dost log on to these forums! The longevity of this thread is due to the fact that it, like the greatest magnitude of forum topics, be driven by the collective tribunal questioning of "how much respect doth we bestow upon those who fly aircraft X?" Prithee sir, why shouldst thou mock this, most holy of BBS ceremonies? Let it lie in peace, I beseech you, and taint it no more by thy vain ignorance of the true nature of these solemn proceedings!
Okay, trying to grasp this is nearly as difficult as this...
(https://sphotos-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/554864_10201808371991570_213383278_n.jpg)
No, really, it does!
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The ONLY thing Brits can take credit for, the Merlin, is debatable. It was an American officer that pushed the change to a Merlin through, Y'ALL turned down the Merlin powered Stang.
The idea to put a Merlin engine into the Mustang was first brought up by the British.
In March of '42, Wing Commander Ian Campbell-Orde, commanding officer of the Air Fighting Development Unit, offered an inventation to Rolls Royce service liason test pilot Ronnie Harker to fly a Mustang Mk I (AG422) at Duxford. The following day, Harker sent a letter to the Rolls Royce executives to place the Merlin 61 engine in the Mustang.
In May of '42, the first Mustang (AG518) was sent to Rolls Royce to have the Merlin 61 engine installed and tested but not accepted for installation and testing due to the Mustang selected was Type NA-73 airframe. A Type NA-83 (AM121) airframe was used instead for the Mustang X project.
In June of '42, the USAAF authorized its own Mustang Merlin project after observing the Rolls Royce Mustang X project.
ack-ack
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As I understood it, the original procurement was paid for by the British too. They went to North American and asked them to build P-40s for the RAF. North American said that they could do that, or they could design and build a better fighter in the same time frame. The British government opted for the second choice and paid for it.
That is how I understood it to have happened.
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The idea to put a Merlin engine into the Mustang was first brought up by the British.
In March of '42, Wing Commander Ian Campbell-Orde, commanding officer of the Air Fighting Development Unit, offered an inventation to Rolls Royce service liason test pilot Ronnie Harker to fly a Mustang Mk I (AG422) at Duxford. The following day, Harker sent a letter to the Rolls Royce executives to place the Merlin 61 engine in the Mustang.
In May of '42, the first Mustang (AG518) was sent to Rolls Royce to have the Merlin 61 engine installed and tested but not accepted for installation and testing due to the Mustang selected was Type NA-73 airframe. A Type NA-83 (AM121) airframe was used instead for the Mustang X project.
In June of '42, the USAAF authorized its own Mustang Merlin project after observing the Rolls Royce Mustang X project.
ack-ack
The Rolls Royce installation was cobbled up, and not very clean or aesthetically pleasing. In short, ugly. North American's design was far more integrated and comprehensive (as one would expect from the factory).
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/Avp51_2_2.png)
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The idea to put a Merlin engine into the Mustang was first brought up by the British.
In March of '42, Wing Commander Ian Campbell-Orde, commanding officer of the Air Fighting Development Unit, offered an inventation to Rolls Royce service liason test pilot Ronnie Harker to fly a Mustang Mk I (AG422) at Duxford. The following day, Harker sent a letter to the Rolls Royce executives to place the Merlin 61 engine in the Mustang.
In May of '42, the first Mustang (AG518) was sent to Rolls Royce to have the Merlin 61 engine installed and tested but not accepted for installation and testing due to the Mustang selected was Type NA-73 airframe. A Type NA-83 (AM121) airframe was used instead for the Mustang X project.
In June of '42, the USAAF authorized its own Mustang Merlin project after observing the Rolls Royce Mustang X project.
ack-ack
Like I said, debatable. The Brits may have in fact installed one first. I'm not so sure of that though. I read some dates somewhere where an American officer was pushing for the license built Merlin conversion very near the time when Harker made his suggestion.
Maj. Thomas Hitchcock, was an attache of sort I believe and was in England when he made the proposal to U.S. brass. Maybe he got the idea from Harker.
I don't know but my point was, just because the Brits made the first documented suggestion of the conversion doesn't mean that US designers were too stupid to know that the Mustang needed a better engine. And there were better options available to them yet they were either denied access to them, they only provided the Brits with what US officials allowed them to or simply stuck with the engine the Brits wanted in the P40.
I believe they wanted to offer a supercharged engine but were restricted.
As I understood it, the original procurement was paid for by the British too.
I can hear it now, "America doesn't have any competitive fighters in its inventory now, but you're going to build us a better one as a "short cut" and you want us to pay for it? I say old chap, why didn't you build this new fighter sooner and where can I get some of your medicinal inventory?"
Not likely. The Brits already knew the p40 was inferior to their own fighters and that nothing the U.S. had at the time was equal to the Spitfire. Buying the P40 was an act of desperation and they were supposed to believe that a U.S. company could produce a better fighter as a means of saving retooling time?
I'd like to see this "paid for" evidence.
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Maj. Thomas Hitchcock, was an attache of sort I believe and was in England when he made the proposal to U.S. brass. Maybe he got the idea from Harker.
After being briefed and shown the Mustang X project, Major Thomas Hitchcock then went back home to the US and lobbied to US brass for the USAAF to start their own project.
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I'd like to see this "paid for" evidence.
From "America's Hundred Thousand," by Dean (an awesome book), p. 330, under "P-51 Chronology":
"Jan '40-A British Purchasing Commission visits the US looking for an American fighter to buy, and suggest North American build the Curtiss P-40. After North American reviews the British requirements they propose to build a superior new design instead.
Apr 24 '40-The North American design proposal for a new NA-73X fighter is accepted by the BPC; North American is to secure pertinent P-40 fighter data from Curtiss.
May 4 '40-Teh British approve the preliminary design of the NA-73X.
May '40-The US Army released the NA-73 design for sale to the UK, but requires two of the aircraft for USAAF testing.
May 29 '40-The British order 320 NA-73 aircraft with the name Mustang. The price per aircraft is $50,000. The next day a contract is signed with the US Army for two aircraft. The 5th and 10th aircraft are to be delivered to the US Army as the XP-51.
Sep '40-The British place another order for 300 NA-83 Mustang IIs."
The Wikipedia page for the P-51 also has info on this with references to where the information comes from.
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In the era of lend-lease, I rather wonder if it was ever actually paid for, or of the US paid for it and the UK paid them back many years later well after the war was over.
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That was before lend-lease (which was enacted in March, 1941).
Good information on the lend-lease program is on Wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease
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I thought this was a thread about the Yak 3? How does who designed, paid for, or modified the P51 apply?
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From "America's Hundred Thousand," by Dean (an awesome book), p. 330, under "P-51 Chronology":
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No where in there does it say that the Brits paid for research and development, it says they bought 300 Mustangs. I am well aware the Brits bought the first production run, that is not the same as paying for R&D! They bought a product, they didn't give birth to it. Funding for R&D based on an idea or suggestion is kind of rare to my knowledge unless it's a doozy.
My point was that the Brits have every right to be proud of the Merlin and the role it had with the Mustang, but shouldn't get carried away with the credit taking even when it comes to the engine. I'm completely certain the designers at NA knew the Mustang was neutered as it was first sold and had no choice but to sell it that way.
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The P-51 was, of course, the creation of North American, a United States company.
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No where in there does it say that the Brits paid for research and development, it says they bought 300 Mustangs. I am well aware the Brits bought the first production run, that is not the same as paying for R&D! They bought a product, they didn't give birth to it. Funding for R&D based on an idea or suggestion is kind of rare to my knowledge unless it's a doozy.
My point was that the Brits have every right to be proud of the Merlin and the role it had with the Mustang, but shouldn't get carried away with the credit taking even when it comes to the engine. I'm completely certain the designers at NA knew the Mustang was neutered as it was first sold and had no choice but to sell it that way.
As a guy who works in businesses that do product development, I can tell you that a customer who commissions a product (which is what the British did) can be thought of as about the same whether or not they front the development money. You expect the sales to more than pay for the R&D, or you wouldn't do the R&D. If the arrangement with the customer included him fronting the R&D money, it would just typically be subtracted (or more than subtracted) from the sale price.
A customer who commissions a product isn't the creator of that product. That's not what I'm saying. But the Mustang might not have been made if the Brits didn't commission it. There was no one else asking for it.
The Merlin is a British engine. Given the amount of engineering and technology that goes into designing and making an engine vs. an airframe, if a plane has a British engine and an American airframe, it is roughly speaking half British and half American.
The designers of the Mustang designed it to use the best American in-line engine -- the Allison. It wasn't neutered. It just turns out that the Merlin was a better high-alt engine than the Allison.
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I wouldn't say half Brit half Yank. Not just because of an engine. Spits with Packards in them were all Brit, no? P-40s with Merlins in them were all Yank, no? Nobody would argue the P-40 was anything but American.
Engine origin may be a nice side-note, but IMO it's more important who made the overall design, and who implemented the mating of said engine to said airframe.
Brooke, interesting thought. I wager North American were chomping at the bit, and mired down in the beurocratic red tape of the US design/development system. I wager they'd have made this design after pounding the US Army to let them, but it might have taken another year or two. Imagine P-51s not showing up til late 1945, after Jugs/38s had already won the war.
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As a guy who works in businesses that do product development, I can tell you that a customer who commissions a product (which is what the British did) can be thought of as about the same whether or not they front the development money. You expect the sales to more than pay for the R&D, or you wouldn't do the R&D. If the arrangement with the customer included him fronting the R&D money, it would just typically be subtracted (or more than subtracted) from the sale price.
A customer who commissions a product isn't the creator of that product. That's not what I'm saying. But the Mustang might not have been made if the Brits didn't commission it. There was no one else asking for it.
The Merlin is a British engine. Given the amount of engineering and technology that goes into designing and making an engine vs. an airframe, if a plane has a British engine and an American airframe, it is roughly speaking half British and half American.
The designers of the Mustang designed it to use the best American in-line engine -- the Allison. It wasn't neutered. It just turns out that the Merlin was a better high-alt engine than the Allison.
I honestly don't think the Mustang would have been built if the British purchasing commission didn't accept NAA's proposal to build an entirely new aircraft instead of a licensed P-40. If the British had turned down NAA's proposal, NAA would have remained under Curtiss-Wrights shadow and continue building trainers. It was a real risk NAA took, a risk that paid off in spades as it propelled them from a small aviation company into the country's main aviation company during the war.
ack-ack
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I wouldn't say half Brit half Yank. Not just because of an engine. Spits with Packards in them were all Brit, no?
Yes, all Brit. Packard was building British engines. I attribute the place of design and engineering as the nationality of the item, not where it is manufactured to specification.
P-40s with Merlins in them were all Yank, no? Nobody would argue the P-40 was anything but American.
I would. I'd count them as half Brit and half American.
Engine origin may be a nice side-note, but IMO it's more important who made the overall design, and who implemented the mating of said engine to said airframe.
If everything on an airplane was designed by Americans except for the tires, I would say (to a couple decimal places) it is 100% American (even if it is built in a factory in Malaysia). If half the design work was done by Americans and half by British, I would say it is half American and half British. An engine is of course a vital part of an airplane and of the characteristics that make it a good or bad aircraft overall. For WWII tech, the engineering for an engine is about as complicated and involved as the engineering of an entire airplane except the engine. So, if you take a whole airplane, if the engine is designed by Brits and the airframe by Americans, it's half Brit and half American.
Brooke, interesting thought. I wager North American were chomping at the bit, and mired down in the beurocratic red tape of the US design/development system.
The US government didn't care a bit about the Mustang. All they needed from the US government was the OK to sell it to the Brits. They weren't mired in any US government design criteria -- it went from order to 1st prototype in 102 days.
I wager they'd have made this design after pounding the US Army to let them, but it might have taken another year or two. Imagine P-51s not showing up til late 1945, after Jugs/38s had already won the war.
If the Brits hadn't commissioned it, if they thought that they could sell the US government on it, maybe they would have taken a gamble and done it anyway -- but they very well might not have. If they did, I agree that it would have added at least a year to the deployment date, and by then, there probably would have been lots of long-range P-47's and/or P-38's doing the long-range escort, so who knows if the P-51 would even have been used in large numbers by then.
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I honestly don't think the Mustang would have been built if the British purchasing commission didn't accept NAA's proposal to build an entirely new aircraft instead of a licensed P-40.
I totally agree.
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It was a boom time for airplane design. If the rotten Brewster corporation could get an official contract, then a "good" company could, too. There were many folks that wanted to design, and to innovate, and they found a way to. North American had that kind of motivated design force behind it.
If the Brits hadn't done it, NA would have done it (or something similar) on their own. Actually pitching it was a problem. The US only wanted existing models. More and more of the known, rather than possibly more of the unknown. You're right the US didn't care about the Mustang... Until it was already built and started showing promise. All they wanted were crap-loads of P-40s. P-40s, P-40s, P-40s. There was even an investigation after the war into WHY so many friggin' P-40s were made. Was it some kind of bribery for contracts? The answer: They needed planes.
That need for planes would have eventually forced them to realize what they were building was obsolete. They'd have to move on to new designs, better designs. Then they'd have issued an order for new designs and NA would have jumped at the chance.
...but, those are just my thoughts on the matter.
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Ahhhhh, the 190s then :D
I thought, per this thread's creation/title, that was the Yak3. :headscratch:
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It was a boom time for airplane design. If the rotten Brewster corporation could get an official contract, then a "good" company could, too. There were many folks that wanted to design, and to innovate, and they found a way to. North American had that kind of motivated design force behind it.
The Brewster corp was so poorly mismanaged that the US gov had to take it over during the war, complete with executives that were convicted of fraud, etc....
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oops, wrong thread.
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As a guy who works in businesses that do product development, I can tell you that a customer who commissions a product (which is what the British did)
They did not commission a new product they commissioned retooling and manufacture of an existing design. NO R&D!!! They weren't looking for a new design for various reasons, not the least of which was they were broke.
Yet the Brits were willing to give this alleged "better" design a chance even considering the grave situation they were facing. I'm assuming you already know what a huge risk they were taking in doing so. What would the difference have been between having 150 new planes by such and such date or having a broken promise and a scrap airplane?
I would say that first words out of the purchasing commissions office was "we already planned on the P40 and how much would it cost?"
NAA was in NO position to demand or even ask for any significant reimbursement for R&D so the price they paid for the Mustang was probably in the ball park of the out dated and 2nd class P40. Because that's what the purchasing commission planned on paying and they certainly wouldn't have agreed to pay what the Mustang turned out to be worth considering the success yet to be seen.
The Brits MIGHT have paid for the retooling had it been necessary, but I don't know what standard practice is for something like that. And I also don't know your business experience, but I highly doubt that comparing companies that make mp3 players to major defense procurement in ww2 is a good comparison. Even with those high dollar defense products, who pays for R&D depends on who wants what and who wants it more.
You expect the sales to more than pay for the R&D, or you wouldn't do the R&D.
Exactly, so you agree that NAA didn't get anything for R&D and like most companies struggling to build a business, did the R&D on their own because they believed in their own talent.
A customer who commissions a product isn't the creator of that product.
Exactly my point and considering they didn't commission the Mustang, they asked for a P40, even more so.
But the Mustang might not have been made if the Brits didn't commission it. There was no one else asking for it.
Everyone was asking for it. The whole world was in a race to build the best fighter that could be made. Do you think NAA had an epiphany just because England asked for a p40?
Why do you think they were so confident that they could design AND BUILD a brand new aircraft in less time than it would take to retool? Why do you think they included a brand new wing design that no one else was using?
They say the Mustang was 117 days from board to prototype. Your theory is it might not have been made, mine is they were already toying with the design, the British provided a customer and an opportunity to look like engineering gods in under 120 days. And if the British hadn't showed up, it would have been a later entry into the war.
Given the amount of engineering and technology that goes into designing and making an engine vs. an airframe, if a plane has a British engine and an American airframe, it is roughly speaking half British and half American.
I don't buy this at all. Airframes aren't only a matter of putting wings on a barrel but it's irrelevant regardless. NAA didn't set out to design an engine. They used what was available to them. In the US, that was a neutered Allison and the Brits didn't offer the Merlin.
It wasn't neutered. It just turns out that the Merlin was a better high-alt engine than the Allison.
Perhaps you didn't read the link I posted earlier. I'll paraphrase. The P-38 used a high alt Allison with no problems at all other than fuel related. When properly boosted the Allison out powered the Merlin, significantly at some altitudes.
It was neutered! The best boost was reserved for bomber engines.
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And if the British hadn't showed up, it would have been a later entry into the war.
I don't think so. If NAA hadn't taken the huge risk in proposing a new plane or if the British rejected NAA's proposal, NAA would have continued being a minor aviation manufacturer building trainers and Curtiss-Wright planes under license.
ack-ack
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I don't think so. If NAA hadn't taken the huge risk in proposing a new plane or if the British rejected NAA's proposal, NAA would have continued being a minor aviation manufacturer building trainers and Curtiss-Wright planes under license.
ack-ack
I don't think the talent that came up with one of the best piston engine fighters ever designed was an accident or a fluke. If they had the talent and the confidence to as you put it, take the huge risk, then it was only a matter of time.
But I don't think there was any risk at all for them to pitch the idea to the Brits because worse case scenario would have been making lots of P40s, increasing their net worth and providing funds to focus on their own ideas which as you already know, they made happen in less than 120 days with the money they already had on hand.
And IF... as others have suggested, the idea for the Mustang was a complete epiphany that resulted from the Brits proposal (which I will never believe) and the Brits refused, there is still no logical reason to believe that they wouldn't have gone ahead with the idea once it came to them. NAA already believed they could do it in 120 days. With that kind of expedience the financial risk was comparatively minimal.
Either way, there are no indications that suggest NAA was going to lie down and let history roll over them.
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muzik,
None of that would have happened if they hadn't gotten the go ahead from a customer. You cannot say for sure if the USAAF would have gone for it or not and if they didn't, which government procurements often didn't for many different reasons, the P-51 never would have existed. The demonstrated skill of the North American engineers don't change that.
As to the P-38, I have heard from more than one P-38 pilot that the turbochargers on it were temperamental and prone to failure.
Without the P-51 I suspect we'd have ended up with the other option the RAF and USAAF were also both investigating at the time, long range Spitfires.
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People didn't understand how turbochargers work or what kind of throttle actuation is hardest on them.
This still goes on when I see cars with OEM turbochargers that last 30,000 miles while the turbos on my cars last 200,000 miles.
How you "drive" them is important.
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None of that would have happened if they hadn't gotten the go ahead from a customer.
That's a theory not a fact, and it doesn't agree with norm in the aviation business. Aviation companies lose billions experimenting because they believe in their ideas and the government can't or wont fund them without some proof of the concept.
What is fact is that when any company gets an idea for a better mouse trap, they have two choices, find a customer that wants to buy into the idea or build it and prove it on their own. In aviation and lots of military hardware, proving it first is common.
Fact, even with the neutered engine the P 51 was impressive enough to have raised some interest. Theory, if NAA had to go it alone with no customer, they may have put a neutered Allison in it or they may have opted to make sure that a top notch engine was used in the prototypes from the get go.
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That's a theory not a fact, and it doesn't agree with norm in the aviation business. Aviation companies lose billions experimenting because they believe in their ideas and the government can't or wont fund them without some proof of the concept.
Different time, buddy. Boeing bet the company on the B-17, when the Army crashed the prototype, causing it to lose the contract by default, it would have been the end of Boeing had the Army not been so happy with it in the tests it did complete that they bought some anyways. With purse strings as tight as they were at the time do you really think North American was going to build a new fighter without even a bid to compete for?
What is fact is that when any company gets an idea for a better mouse trap, they have two choices, find a customer that wants to buy into the idea or build it and prove it on their own. In aviation and lots of military hardware, proving it first is common.
Great. Why didn't North American do that? They didn't approach anybody about this great idea, they were completely passive about it until the British Purchasing Commission came knocking and looking for somebody to build P-40s for them.
Fact, even with the neutered engine the P 51 was impressive enough to have raised some interest. Theory, if NAA had to go it alone with no customer, they may have put a neutered Allison in it or they may have opted to make sure that a top notch engine was used in the prototypes from the get go.
Or, most likely given how tight things were at the time, and occupied with the production of P-40s, they wouldn't have done so at all.
You seem to be bending over backwards to eliminate British involvement with the creation of the P-51. Why? It doesn't make it less of a fighter, nor does impinge on its greatness or its service to the USA.
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They did not commission a new product they commissioned retooling and manufacture of an existing design. NO R&D!!! They weren't looking for a new design for various reasons, not the least of which was they were broke.
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[etc.]
The main point seems to be this:
Your theory is it might not have been made, mine is they were already toying with the design, the British provided a customer and an opportunity to look like engineering gods in under 120 days. And if the British hadn't showed up, it would have been a later entry into the war.
I agree that, if the British hadn't bought it, the Mustang might still have been made and introduced later. However, yes, it is my opinion that, if the British had stuck to wanting the P-40 instead of buying the Mustang, the Mustang more likely wouldn't have been built.
A separate discussion:
The P-38 used a high alt Allison with no problems at all other than fuel related. When properly boosted the Allison out powered the Merlin, significantly at some altitudes.
It was neutered! The best boost was reserved for bomber engines.
The P-38 used a turbosupercharger (running on exhaust gas), as did the P-47, B-17, and B-24, although not all the same designs of turbos. Turbos are typically very good at high alt, but they aren't the only choice. The large majority of other fighters (P-51, Spit, Bf 109, FW 190, F4U, F6F, Ta 152, for example) used superchargers (running via mechanical, or in the case of some Daimler engines hydraulic it seems, drive from the engine, and which weren't used on or reserved for B-17's or B-24's). Those planes were not neutered -- it was a design decision to use a supercharger. Some superchargers are good at alt (such as the one on the Merlin, Bf 109, and Ta 152, of course) and some are not -- it depends on design of the supercharger, number of stages, how many speeds, gearing, etc. The Allison for the early Mustang was not neutered as far as I know -- I think it was just a supercharged engine that, because of its particular design choices, was not as good at alt as the Merlin. I have never heard that the Mustang was intended to use turbosupercharging but couldn't because of a shortage.
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And IF... as others have suggested, the idea for the Mustang was a complete epiphany that resulted from the Brits proposal
I don't think anyone is saying that. I certainly am not.
The Mustang design was the idea primarily of Edgar Schmued (as an interesting aside, a German immigrant who began work in the US at Fokker Aircraft Corporation of America, which was owned by General Motors, who later sold it off, whereupon it became North American Aviation). None of us knows when he started thinking about the design that would become the Mustang.
What folks are saying is that they think (and it's all speculative, of course) that the Mustang design would never have been completed nor the Mustang ever built if it weren't for the British agreeing to buy them instead of P-40's.
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Muzik, you seem, like me, to enjoy the history of WWII aircraft, including how they came to be. If you haven't read it already, you might very much enjoy "The Lockheed P-38 Lightning," by Bodie. It is a marvelous book that goes into the whole history of the plane, including all of the early aspects of how it came to be, thoughts on design, the government process, the development process, etc.
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Late to the topic currently at hand. I think it likely the Mustang may have seen the light of day without the British buying it but it would probably have been later in the war by a year or more. Likely picked up as the USAAF was looking for a long range escort fighter for Europe after @ mid 1943. Perhaps the Merlin P-51 would have been introduced in the Fall of 1944 instead by the USAAF? or perhaps it only would have seen action in the Pacific as an Allison powered model, again, later in the war.
Certainly the British agreeing to buy it put it on the "fast track" to production and service...to the good fortune of the USA who would end up being the most prolific user of it. No question the British buying it enabled it to see combat by 1942...early enough that improvements would be likely done by 1943 and 1944 with still enough time to make a difference and early enough that other interested parties (like the USAAF) could contemplate using it.
In the end though...nobody knows. Its a lot of what-if's and maybes. We will never know how the timeline of that a/c would have changed had the history of it been different. My own beleif is that it's contribution to WW2 would have been much more limited had the RAF not wanted it in 1941.
Hindsight is 20/20.
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Different time, buddy.
Yes it is, but you seem to imply that there was less "do it yourself" and more government supported development. I am pretty sure it was the opposite. These days military hardware is more complicated and expensive, private companies are less likely to gamble so big.
With purse strings as tight as they were at the time do you really think North American was going to build a new fighter without even a bid to compete for?
Yes I do. It was a sellers market. They were confident they had a "better" aircraft and they proved it.
Great. Why didn't North American do that? They didn't approach anybody about this great idea,
I don't know, but the most obvious and likely choice given the evidence, the Brits just so happened to show up while they were still churning out the details.
Don't you think it a bit odd that a company so confidently declared they would make a new, better aircraft in less time than it would take to put an existing design into production? AND succeeded? That's a huge promise. Especially considering it was a desperately needed war machine. They gambled with the outcome of the war to some extent here.
I don't believe they were THAT talented. I am absolutely certain they already had part of this design hammered out even if it was only in their heads and the Brits coincidentally showed up looking for fighters.
most likely given how tight things were at the time, and occupied with the production of P-40s, they wouldn't have done so at all.
You and Brooke seem to ignore two realities. EVERYONE in the defense business was scrambling to design better weapons because it was a sellers market. No company with any common sense would wait to clear the bureaucratic red tape if they have a good product. They would make it and then go on a marketing campaign until they proved it's worth or someone proved them wrong. If you could build a better weapon, there would be a buyer.
Second, aviation companies don't stop designing or selling aircraft just because they are producing another.
You seem to be bending over backwards to eliminate British involvement with the creation of the P-51.
Not really, I don't deny they had a role in it. I'm just saying, the Mustang didn't depend on them and I don't believe that NAA would have let the idea/design die if the Brits had said no.
Muzik, you seem, like me, to enjoy the history of WWII aircraft, including how they came to be. If you haven't read it already, you might very much enjoy "The Lockheed P-38 Lightning," by Bodie. It is a marvelous book that goes into the whole history of the plane, including all of the early aspects of how it came to be, thoughts on design, the government process, the development process, etc.
Thank you, love the 38 so I will look into it.
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so ya brought up at thread that's been dead for 2 months just to type 8 dots? :rolleyes:
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. . . . . . . .
alcohol induced?
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Maybe he got shot down by a Yak 3 horde yesterday :)
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Lol well at least he could leave some details
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Maybe he got shot down by a Yak 3 horde yesterday :)
:lol
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so ya brought up at thread that's been dead for 2 months just to type 8 dots? :rolleyes:
I was reading through it and someone pointed out something about the gameplay of one of the bigger loudmouths on 200. I posted something unflattering about that player's style of game play and thought better of it. I've been playing a year and love the game. I won't contribute to the negativity here or on 200. I monitor 200 because it's nice to exchange pleasantries with guys from the other teams. For instance, I rarely shoot down injured fighters. What's the point? I've had several guys thank me on 200 for not killing them after flying formation on them for a bit and then going my own way. Unless of course I've been hoed the last several deaths and I'm seeing red. ;) It's just hard not to get pulled in by all the crying and taunting on 200. It's too bad we have guys here like that. Anyway, that's why I deleted my post. On topic, I'm getting better at holding my own against Yaks, although I still don't have them figured out, and I now seek them out to learn how to fight them better. Like the 109, they're my toughest opponents.
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I was reading through it and someone pointed out something about the gameplay of one of the bigger loudmouths on 200. I posted something unflattering about that player's style of game play and thought better of it. I've been playing a year and love the game. I won't contribute to the negativity here or on 200. I monitor 200 because it's nice to exchange pleasantries with guys from the other teams. For instance, I rarely shoot down injured fighters. What's the point? I've had several guys thank me on 200 for not killing them after flying formation on them for a bit and then going my own way. Unless of course I've been hoed the last several deaths and I'm seeing red. ;) It's just hard not to get pulled in by all the crying and taunting on 200. It's too bad we have guys here like that. Anyway, that's why I deleted my post. On topic, I'm getting better at holding my own against Yaks, although I still don't have them figured out, and I now seek them out to learn how to fight them better. Like the 109, they're my toughest opponents.
We have loudmouths?
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We have loudmouths?
I, for one, am shocked, SHOCKED I say, by this baseless accusation!
:neener:
If you monitor 200 you should know what to expect.
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(http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/191watbur1hmbgif/ku-medium.gif)
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I was reading through it and someone pointed out something about the gameplay of one of the bigger loudmouths on 200. I posted something unflattering about that player's style of game play and thought better of it. I've been playing a year and love the game. I won't contribute to the negativity here or on 200. I monitor 200 because it's nice to exchange pleasantries with guys from the other teams. For instance, I rarely shoot down injured fighters. What's the point? I've had several guys thank me on 200 for not killing them after flying formation on them for a bit and then going my own way. Unless of course I've been hoed the last several deaths and I'm seeing red. ;) It's just hard not to get pulled in by all the crying and taunting on 200. It's too bad we have guys here like that. Anyway, that's why I deleted my post. On topic, I'm getting better at holding my own against Yaks, although I still don't have them figured out, and I now seek them out to learn how to fight them better. Like the 109, they're my toughest opponents.
:aok I tune to 200 for the same reasons you do and here lately I've been squelching the ones that can't stfu. I do love the squelch function :)
About the Yaks, I have a hard time with them. They're small and hard to hit, and they seem to soak up tons of ammo. They're really a handful for me in a 47 unless I have a significant advantage.
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Bah. They die like everything else does when hit by four hispanos. That's assuming I hit them, which is a big leap given my gunnery of late...
I honestly haven't had that big of an issue with the Yaks. Kinda like Spitteens to me except smaller and slightly tougher.
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I haven't flown in quite a while ... I am thinking of coming back for a look after I take care of some stuff that is in the way right now. When I was a regular, the Yak-9U was my all time favorite ride. It rewarded smart tactical flying and was a fantastic "all around" dog-fighter. For me at least. I could cope with the low firepower by being a good shooter and holding off on wastage.
I always wanted to try a Yak-3 but it wasn't around back then. I assumed it would climb better than the 9 and accelerate better (it's quite a bit lighter) and turn better as well. Is it better in the horizontal turn ? I know it is better in the vertical, how can it not be at such a light weight ?
Just curious. I will see some of you when I return.
I'm not a big supporter of complaining like many seem to do, I always figured successful combat pilots study, learn, adapt and overcome. Or leave. They don't cry much. Even pretend combat pilots. :D
Reailty is what you deal with and it is always what you face, no matter what your opinion says you "should" be facing. If you can't deal with something you come up against, find something else to deal with that suits you better. Don't expect the world to change to make your life easier.
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Comparing it with the Yak-9U, this is what I personally feel I have found.
It has the same great all round vision but it also has the same (relatively) small armament and ammunition load.
It climbs better than the 9U, it turns better than the 9U, it rolls better than the 9U, it's smaller (and harder to hit) than the 9U and it accelerates better than the 9U.
The 9U beats it in the dive and top end speed.
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Comparing it with the Yak-9U, this is what I personally feel I have found.
It has the same great all round vision but it also has the same (relatively) small armament and ammunition load.
It climbs better than the 9U, it turns better than the 9U, it rolls better than the 9U, it's smaller (and harder to hit) than the 9U and it accelerates better than the 9U.
The 9U beats it in the dive and top end speed.
If the Spit IX and 51D had a child, it would be the Yak-3 with tiny fists, lol. Ultimately, whether by design or not, people are flying them in the same style as the Dora and the runstang...with some exceptions but for the most part they do.
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It is on my list of planes for pilots who need a crutch...
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It is on my list of planes for pilots who need a crutch...
And knee braces...
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Having flown in and against the Yak3 I will say that it's a competitive ride in the LW arena, but I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as the LA7/Runstang/Spit.
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It is on my list of planes for pilots who need a crutch...
Says the Ta 152 driver.
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How the hell is a 152 a crutch? Ever fly one down low in a crowd?
Idiotic statement.
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The idiotic statements come from the usual players who endlessly acuse others of "crutch rides" when they fly P-51Ds, N1K2s, Doras, LA-7s, Bf 109K-4s and assorted perk rides pretending they are "fighting the good fight against the odds" when they almost ALL fly 1944-45 rides in one form or another! :rofl .So spare me.
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152 is far from a crutch. In fact if you want to do anything other than boom and zoom the 152 can be a hindrance.
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Ok. so I made the Yak-9U work for me when it appeared almost no one else was using it, back before there was a Yak-3 and when it was a joy to do well in the 9. I guess from what I'm reading here the Yak-3 will be even better but I'll be a weenie dweeb for using it.
Like I would care, really.
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152 is far from a crutch. In fact if you want to do anything other than boom and zoom the 152 can be a hindrance.
:rofl
If the Yak-3 is a crutch, so is the Ta152. You're deluding yourself because it feels good to think you're not using a crutch and others are. That or you're falling prey to AH's political correctness crowd in which certain aircraft are deemed skilled and others are deemed noobish without consideration of their capabilities but rather based on the players that use them.
Is it the most supportive crutch? No, but it is definitely a crutch.
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The idiotic statements come from the usual players who endlessly acuse others of "crutch rides" when they fly P-51Ds, N1K2s, Doras, LA-7s, Bf 109K-4s and assorted perk rides pretending they are "fighting the good fight against the odds" when they almost ALL fly 1944-45 rides in one form or another! :rofl .So spare me.
Ya, add the K4 to that list because its such an easy weapons platform to shoot from. The rest of your list is accurate. You can put just about any plane in the set in there except the Q...crutch rides are almost always about HOW people fly the endless stream of fast, faster, fastest cannon platforms.
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:rofl
If the Yak-3 is a crutch, so is the Ta152. You're deluding yourself because it feels good to think you're not using a crutch and others are. That or you're falling prey to AH's political correctness crowd in which certain aircraft are deemed skilled and others are deemed noobish without consideration of their capabilities but rather based on the players that use them.
Is it the most supportive crutch? No, but it is definitely a crutch.
I did not mention the Yak-3 or any plane other then the 152. I did not claim any plane was a crutch.
If I am "falling prey to AH's political correctness crowd" then you are as well.
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Says the Ta 152 driver.
:lol
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It's pretty hard to get analytical assessments when 99% of replies seem to be calling people names for how and what they fly, isn't it ? I guess I'll make my own summaries from now on. :bhead
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Doc, I'd say TGG93 pretty much hit it on the head, The 9U has better speed and dive, the 3 better everything else. Which you pick is down to your flying style really. Also the 9T also now has the option of a 20mm cannon rather than the 37mm.
Crutch ride = any ride better than mine.....
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The yak really isn't that great of a plane... I encourage any and everyone to fly it, so that I can get more kills
thx,
Violator :devil
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Having flown in and against the Yak3 I will say that it's a competitive ride in the LW arena, but I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as the LA7/Runstang/Spit.
Before I quit flying I agree with this - it might be a competitive ride but unless you hit something with it you will probably be out of bullets before gas in 3 seconds or less.
Great aircraft though, its addition to aces high was long overdue, reminds me of when other "noob/horde/manifestation" rides were added in Aces High..
/If anyone goes back far enough, remember when C-hog was the only aircraft flown for a tour? imagine being ho'd by that thing all day long? think it was shortly before the N1K came out and everyone flew it etc
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/If anyone goes back far enough, remember when C-hog was the only aircraft flown for a tour? imagine being ho'd by that thing all day long? think it was shortly before the N1K came out and everyone flew it etc
The N1K2-J was one of the original aircraft in the game when AH went live. It was the Japanese airplane of the original set.
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The idiotic statements come from the usual players who endlessly acuse others of "crutch rides" when they fly P-51Ds, N1K2s, Doras, LA-7s, Bf 109K-4s and assorted perk rides pretending they are "fighting the good fight against the odds" when they almost ALL fly 1944-45 rides in one form or another! :rofl .So spare me.
Warroc - I wasn't accusing anyone's ride of being a crutch....if you go back in the thread you will see I didn't even state the Yak3 was one...I took acception to the idea the 152 is a crutch. I apologize, however, for using the term "idiotic" for your statement...it was the bottle of Thanksgiving wine speaking! :old:
The 152 when flown in any way (other than BnZ) is hardly a crutch. Yes, she has a great gun package...but she also a total b1tch when slow. She has great rudder authority...maybe better than the Hog...but if you use it too much she will bite you and flip on her back in a nearly unrecoverable flat spin / stall at the drop of a hat. Try disengaging from a low furball when in one...she's no K4....you will find she accelerates like a 80-year old with a walker.
Yep..late war bird...but far from a world beater like the LaLa or K4. I'm not pretending she a 109e, p39 or P40....but the 152 is far from a uber ride is all I'm saying.
Fyi - I just realized some of the statements in my first paragraph could have other connotations....these are entirely accidental. :D :aok
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The 152 when flown in any way (other than BnZ) is hardly a crutch. Yes, she has a great gun package...but she also a total b1tch when slow. She has great rudder authority...maybe better than the Hog...but if you use it too much she will bite you and flip on her back in a nearly unrecoverable flat spin / stall at the drop of a hat. Try disengaging from a low furball when in one...she's no K4....you will find she accelerates like a 80-year old with a walker.
Yep..late war bird...but far from a world beater like the LaLa or K4. I'm not pretending she a 109e, p39 or P40....but the 152 is far from a uber ride is all I'm saying.
Well said.
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The idiotic statements come from the usual players who endlessly acuse others of "crutch rides" when they fly P-51Ds, N1K2s, Doras, LA-7s, Bf 109K-4s and assorted perk rides pretending they are "fighting the good fight against the odds" when they almost ALL fly 1944-45 rides in one form or another! :rofl .So spare me.
I hardly go over 8k in a 152....If you would like me to show you how I fly it, we can meet up in MA or DA. I probably have some films of me beating decent sticks in LA7s, 109s and F4Us...when I get back to my computer I'll search through the mess of films.
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I hardly go over 8k in a 152....If you would like me to show you how I fly it, we can meet up in MA or DA. I probably have some films of me beating decent sticks in LA7s, 109s and F4Us...when I get back to my computer I'll search through the mess of films.
(http://i.imgur.com/amMw1t7.jpg)
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The yak really isn't that great of a plane... I encourage any and everyone to fly it, so that I can get more kills
thx,
Violator :devil
I actually disagree...I think the yak3 is a very good plane. I just think it's flown by many who don't know how to take advantage of it as yet.
I'm not a huge Yak3 fan because it, like all Russian rides, has a small ammo load and I'm a lousy shot. :D
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I just think it's flown by many who don't know how to take advantage of it as yet.
I think that this can be said about many of the air frames that we currently have. I'm partial to the Ki84, and I constantly see pilots flying the Ki who don't really understand what she is really good at.
As for the Yak3... I haven't tried it yet. I tend to not like the Russian planes much, and since this isn't a Russian made game, they don't seem crazy good here (unlike a certain thunderous game with a magic Russian bi-plane). That said, since I returned to the game, I haven't really seen very many Yak3s, and the ones I have tangled with haven't seem like they were that good.
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(http://i.imgur.com/amMw1t7.jpg)
:rofl
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(http://)
152 is far from a crutch. In fact if you want to do anything other than boom and zoom the 152 can be a hindrance.
I agree. I'm a mustang guy but I only turn fight 152s when I mess up and have to. I uaully end up back in the tower. With your slower speed only acm ensures survival. Hardly a crutch.
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The idiotic statements come from the usual players who endlessly acuse others of "crutch rides" when they fly P-51Ds, N1K2s, Doras, LA-7s, Bf 109K-4s and assorted perk rides pretending they are "fighting the good fight against the odds" when they almost ALL fly 1944-45 rides in one form or another! :rofl .So spare me.
If you think a Dora or a K4 is a crutch ride. You havent spent enough time in either.
An argument can be made for the Niki the La7 and to a lessor extent the pony to some extent because the can do everything reasonably well at almost any speed. Yes the Dora and K4 are fast. but get them slow and they turn like crap and if you spend any amount of serious time in either you know at some point you will find yourself in and have to learn to survive low and slow. Not nearly as easy as it is in the crutch rides.Spits. yak3s NIKI etc. which can noty only zoom you but thrive in low and slow situations
Not to mention the Yak3 can catch the Dora.
152 is even more difficult to handle once you get it low and slow. Try any of the 3 K4, Dora, 152 in that situation and you will quickly find out they are anything but EZ mode
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If you think a Dora or a K4 is a crutch ride. You havent spent enough time in either.
An argument can be made for the Niki the La7 and to a lessor extent the pony to some extent because the can do everything reasonably well at almost any speed. Yes the Dora and K4 are fast. but get them slow and they turn like crap and if you spend any amount of serious time in either you know at some point you will find yourself in and have to learn to survive low and slow. Not nearly as easy as it is in the crutch rides.Spits. yak3s NIKI etc. which can noty only zoom you but thrive in low and slow situations
Not to mention the Yak3 can catch the Dora.
152 is even more difficult to handle once you get it low and slow. Try any of the 3 K4, Dora, 152 in that situation and you will quickly find out they are anything but EZ mode
Only true if turning is the only aspect of "crutch" that matters. Speed, acceleration and climb are most certainly aspects of a crutch plane as well. Bf109K-4 is absolutely a crutch plane and only somebody looking to pat themselves on the back for their skill while they utilize the Bf109K-4 crutch and taunt people for using the N1K2-J.
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The "crutch" plane usually seems to be the one the other guy is flying, so its all a matter of perspective isn't it. There's always something that is faster or turns better , or climbs better than the one you are in.
If you a fly a P-39 then everything else probably seems to be a "crutch" plane . But only fools like Stang would do that ;)
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The N1K2-J was one of the original aircraft in the game when AH went live. It was the Japanese airplane of the original set.
Ah I couldn't remember, maybe it was the La7 then, one of the planes that was added was used quite a bit (more then 33% I think?) maybe it was the Chog.
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how old are you folks ?
like ... 5 ?
crutch this and crutch that
the game is only fair when you win, when you lose, the game is broken :D
stop worrying about stuff and have some fun, at least try and sound happy even if you have to fake it
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how old are you folks ?
like ... 5 ?
crutch this and crutch that
the game is only fair when you win, when you lose, the game is broken :D
stop worrying about stuff and have some fun, at least try and sound happy even if you have to fake it
Well I guess I am 20 years older than the last time I saw you Doc , still over in the states ?
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..
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I love to hear enemy complain about Mother Russia's superior aircraft. :D
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Bf109K-4 is absolutely a crutch plane
I can't agree with this. For people like me, at least, the K4 took awhile to learn how to handle the torque effect, the necessary rudder input, and the guns solution. That just isn't the case with the Spitfires, Zekes, Niks, Yak3s and La7s.
- oldman
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I can't agree with this. For people like me, at least, the K4 took awhile to learn how to handle the torque effect, the necessary rudder input, and the guns solution. That just isn't the case with the Spitfires, Zekes, Niks, Yak3s and La7s.
- oldman
Going to have to agree to disagree. Any plane that gets me out of trouble as easily as the K-4 does is carrying my lack of skill. It is harder to kill in than a Spit XVI, but easier to live in. I also don't find its gunnery any harder than the Yak-3, La-7, Spit XIV, A6M2 and A6M3. The A6Ms rely almost entirely on their enemy being either incompetent or already engaged. As soon as you're in an A6M engaged with a competent enemy that isn't being forced to turn by an La-7 the A6M becomes very challenging.
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I can't agree with this. For people like me, at least, the K4 took awhile to learn how to handle the torque effect, the necessary rudder input, and the guns solution. That just isn't the case with the Spitfires, Zekes, Niks, Yak3s and La7s.
- oldman
Sure the K4 can be a clutch plane, assuming you are a veteran pilot - with crack gunnery. In the hands of a veteran pilot? Yeah the K4 can be a serious threat - so can the C.205 and P-38J in the hands of the right pilots.
You have to look at an average pilot - flew aces for more then a year, has the basics down - no they will not win every time in a 109K4 let alone hit the side of a barn.
There are some planes which you can escape in far better then others, a Spitfire 16 you have a TON of tools - climb rate, acceleration, turn radius - I rarely ever flew the Spit16, to me I could get into trouble and out with no problem at all, anything faster then me I could out turn, anything slower I could outrun or climb. the 109K4 always plagued me, I had one of the best K4 instructors in the game (two actually) and I really never got to interested in the K4 other then its pure speed and climb rate - the 30mm for some odd reason was just my biggest poison either I fired to early or late when snap shooting etc.
I stuck with the C.205, P-38J and Ki-84 for most of my flight time, none offer any real tools in the late war arena, I used situation awareness to really keep myself out of trouble - and my gunnery was above average so even on snapshots I would go for wings etc.
I agree on one thing - with an average pilot, they can survive longer in the "dweeb" rides, P-51, Dora9, La7 and spitfire - but overall it really depends their SA and skill - the majority won't last with a veteran pilot around in any given situation and against an inferior plane.
Surviving depends on many factors, most jsut jump for one kill then haul bellybutton to get back to alt where they believe its safe - unless someone bothered to climb up there to take them down. Its a false illusion in my eyes.
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Every pixel plane is a crutch, a crutch helping pixel man take to the pixel sky. :rock
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Speed is by far the most important survival tool and the easiest to utilize. A noob in a spit 16 is much easier to kill than a noob in a 109k4 p51 or la7.
The k4 is easy enough to get 1 kill with and that is all a noob wants. Same with the yak3 - enough ammo to get 1 kill with and enough survivability tools.
Zeke's and brews rely entirely on the presence of late war friendlies. I can fly most mid/late war planes into a cloud of zekes with the full confidence of coming out of it. Put even one LA7 or 109k or p51 in that cloud and I am not so sure.
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I can fly most mid/late war planes into a cloud of zekes with the full confidence of coming out of it.
That because you'll Head On, everything you see.
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Speed is by far the most important survival tool and the easiest to utilize. A noob in a spit 16 is much easier to kill than a noob in a 109k4 p51 or la7.
The k4 is easy enough to get 1 kill with and that is all a noob wants. Same with the yak3 - enough ammo to get 1 kill with and enough survivability tools.
Zeke's and brews rely entirely on the presence of late war friendlies. I can fly most mid/late war planes into a cloud of zekes with the full confidence of coming out of it. Put even one LA7 or 109k or p51 in that cloud and I am not so sure.
Virtually everything about this post is wrong.
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I love to hear enemy complain about Mother Russia's superior aircraft. :D
If HiTech wanted to make some money... He would start a Russia only server, and then goose up the stats and abilities on all of the Russian planes while nerfing everything else... :bolt:
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That because you'll Head On, everything you see.
I HO their 12, I HO their 6, I HO their top, I HO their bottom. I once even killed a B17 by flying into its bomb bay and HO it from the inside. On one special occasion I ran out of ammo and HOed Dobly with my wingman.
:P
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If HiTech wanted to make some money... He would start a Russia only server, and then goose up the stats and abilities on all of the Russian planes while nerfing everything else... :bolt:
Already been done and that stolen arena sits empty.
I'm here because aces high is the best thing going.
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Only true if turning is the only aspect of "crutch" that matters. Speed, acceleration and climb are most certainly aspects of a crutch plane as well. Bf109K-4 is absolutely a crutch plane and only somebody looking to pat themselves on the back for their skill while they utilize the Bf109K-4 crutch and taunt people for using the N1K2-J.
Crutch plane is the one that does most everything reasonably well. K4 and dora do not fit that category. spits. NIKIs, LA's Yak3,s do
You can take any of the latter mentioned planes into similar circumstances and expect them to be able to perform at least reasonably well. And even if paced at a disadvantage they can use their balanced abilities to offset those disadvantages. Not so with the K4 of the Dora. Each are only really good at a couple of things. But suffer a severe disadvantage when place in other circumstances that are hard to overcome without a lot of work by the person at the controls
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N1K2 is slow and doesn't climb all that well. Yak-3 doesn't turn particularly well. No Spit, other than the quirky Mk XIV, is actually fast.
Sorry, you're just minimizing the strengths of the Bf109K-4, Fw190D-9 and P-51D and arbitrarily saying the others are easy mode.
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I can't agree with this. For people like me, at least, the K4 took awhile to learn how to handle the torque effect, the necessary rudder input, and the guns solution. That just isn't the case with the Spitfires, Zekes, Niks, Yak3s and La7s.
- oldman
Exactly true. And if you had a brand new player in the game and wanted them to have at least some initial success. Would you suggest they start out in the Dora or K4? Or Spit, LA Zeke. or Niki?
There is a far greater learning curve with the K4 or Dora then there is with the others
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N1K2 is slow and doesn't climb all that well. Yak-3 doesn't turn particularly well. No Spit, other than the quirky Mk XIV, is actually fast.
Sorry, you're just minimizing the strengths of the Bf109K-4, Fw190D-9 and P-51D and arbitrarily saying the others are easy mode.
I flew the NIKI for almost a year. Contact JB42 and ask him if I was any good in it. It can climb given speed. Its more balanced strengths can overcome many of the disadvantages it faces. Yak3 certainly can turn better then many of the other planes
In comparison with the ease of handling and learning curve required to become decent in each. They are
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N1K2 is slow and doesn't climb all that well. Yak-3 doesn't turn particularly well. No Spit, other than the quirky Mk XIV, is actually fast.
Sorry, you're just minimizing the strengths of the Bf109K-4, Fw190D-9 and P-51D and arbitrarily saying the others are easy mode.
I consider myself a decent stick in a K4....but if I faced myself in a N1K...the N1k would win. Flat out fact
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Crutch plane is the one that does most everything reasonably well.
Disagree.
A crutch plane is one that does one or more things exceptionally well, thereby allowing the pilot to rely solely on those exceptional attributes to get kills and/or survive encounters he would otherwise not.
Last part of that is the key. Some guys are good enough to be killers in anything they fly. Those guys could be flying a Tempest around all day and IMO, that Tempest isn't a crutch plane. Others, and we all know who they are, that isn't the case.
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I consider myself a decent stick in a K4....but if I faced myself in a N1K...the N1k would win. Flat out fact
I am a bad stick in the K-4 and against me the N1K2 would either lose or make it a draw. I can't see how the N1K is going to do anything to the K-4 unless you play the N1K's game.
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Disagree.
A crutch plane is one that does one or more things exceptionally well, thereby allowing the pilot to rely solely on those exceptional attributes to get kills and/or survive encounters he would otherwise not.
Last part of that is the key. Some guys are good enough to be killers in anything they fly. Those guys could be flying a Tempest around all day and IMO, that Tempest isn't a crutch plane. Others, and we all know who they are, that isn't the case.
Nonsense. I've flown most of the planes in the game and have gotten kills in all of them. It requires considerably more commitment experience and knowledge of how those planes that have those one or two exceptional attributes work in non advantageous positions that everyone ends up in at one point or another. The D9 for example is much more difficult to fly in that aspect then say. The NIKI or the La7. Yes its great in climb and flat out speed. But find yourself in less then ideal circumstances and things get very dicy in a hurry and you better know the plane inside and out right down to throttle and RPM settings. Far less work in a NIK, Spit, or La where you dont have to think if the plane as much as you do what you want to do.
Again I ask. If there were a new player in the game. would you recommend them the D9 or K4 to start out in? Or something more like the spit the NIK or La7?
Still you can B&Z in any plane in the game. the D9 does it better then many but I've done as much in a 109F as well as a NIKI or LA. But the crutch planes do those other things well too. Thats why they are so popular. You rarely see a ton of 190's in one place. Not so with Spits, Yak3's and La7's
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Nonsense. I've flown most of the planes in the game and have gotten kills in all of them. It requires considerably more commitment experience and knowledge of how those planes that have those one or two exceptional attributes work in non advantageous positions that everyone ends up in at one point or another. The D9 for example is much more difficult to fly in that aspect then say. The NIKI or the La7. Yes its great in climb and flat out speed. But find yourself in less then ideal circumstances and things get very dicy in a hurry and you better know the plane inside and out right down to throttle and RPM settings. Far less work in a NIK, Spit, or La where you dont have to think if the plane as much as you do what you want to do.
Again I ask. If there were a new player in the game. would you recommend them the D9 or K4 to start out in? Or something more like the spit the NIK or La7?
Still you can B&Z in any plane in the game. the D9 does it better then many but I've done as much in a 109F as well as a NIKI or LA. But the crutch planes do those other things well too. Thats why they are so popular. You rarely see a ton of 190's in one place. Not so with Spits, Yak3's and La7's
Did you just say "rarely see a ton of 190s in one place"? You must use Alt-I more often because that is the most ridiculous statement I've ever seen. I'm seeing more 190s, LALAs and 51s right now in game than I see of anything else "in one place". I shall begin to take screen shots.
Endeavor to perservere
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I am a bad stick in the K-4 and against me the N1K2 would either lose or make it a draw. I can't see how the N1K is going to do anything to the K-4 unless you play the N1K's game.
I agree with Karnak. The K4 has a superior top speed, superior acceleration, superior rate of climb,better rudder authority and better altitude performance. the K4 is the better plane by a large margin in a 1v1 situation.
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Again I ask. If there were a new player in the game. would you recommend them the D9 or K4 to start out in? Or something more like the spit the NIK or La7?
Still you can B&Z in any plane in the game. the D9 does it better then many but I've done as much in a 109F as well as a NIKI or LA. But the crutch planes do those other things well too.
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Having started this game in the D9 I'd honestly tell a new player to skip it and use a spit unless they are going to "lone wolf" for a while and actually care about landing kills. D9 is hard for a new player to learn in my opinion.
All this being said...
*Warning: Some of the following constitute ACES HIGH HERSEY. Stop reading now!!*
I think the first thing I'd recommend to any new player would be a list of rules rather than what ride to climb into. They go something like this:
1.) The (EW/MW/LW) MA is the (EW/MW/LW) MA and the DA is the DA. Don't expect DA 1 on 1 dueling behavior in the MA and vice versa. They are used for different things and the generally accepted rules of one do not always apply when in the other. Anyone who states otherwise should be ignored (see rule #8 below for further details).
2.) Never tune to ch200. It's mindless fun for a while...but eventually it drains the soul and the brain. Best to remain happy, whole and intelligent.
3.) Never respond to a PM whine. Ignore it or, if you must reply, do so politely and move on.
4.) You will meet some individuals who act very poorly while playing this game. Use these as an example of how NOT to act. Also...reference rule #8 for further guidance.
5.) A HO shot is where both you AND your opponent have a gun solution with forward firing guns at the same time. Any other situation is NOT a HO shot. Also, while a HO is a valid tactic it's also stupid and considered poor form...you are best to avoid it.
6.) Find a good squad who will teach you wingman and team-based tactics. Use these tactics. Sadly few of these squads exist anymore and those that do are sometimes ridiculed by a minority of players. Again, ignore these individuals and see #8 below.
7.) Getting altitude, attacking from the sun with E, zooming up and repeating and all the things you read about that real (i.e. non-cartoon) fighter pilots use are valid tactics in the (EW/MW/LW) MA. Rule #8 applies to any who state otherwise, complain or hurl insults at you when you use these tactics to end their cartoon existence.
8.) A vocal minority of Aces High players will do or say things that don't make a lot of sense. If you use smart tactics like those listed in rule #7 above...they will say you are meek, cowardly or call you a "score wh0r3". If you manage to be the one to kill them when they foolishly dive into a fight significantly outnumbered they may insult you, blame you for their poor tactics, and may even call you are a "horde monkey" or some similar label. Be polite and remember they pay $14.95 per month and so may play the game as they wish. Remember that you also pay $14.95 per month and so allowed to play the game as YOU wish...not as THEY wish you to play it.
9.) Some of these individuals will ask that you meet them in the DA for a "duel". While you should generally ignore players who are rude, some are actually quite skilled one on one. Accept the challenge, meet them in the DA and film the duels. You may well lose every match, but the experience gained is worth it.
Always be polite during this time...you may find some of the ruder ones will mellow and you may make a friend. For the ones who don't and continue to hurl insults at you...you can secretly smile knowing that your continuing to be nice is irritating them to no end. :D
10.) Every once in a while you will see a lone set of B17s flying low near a fight. You will immediately want to dive on this foolish pilot and crush him in your <fill-in-the-blank-fighter>. Do not give in to this temptation, for that be 999000 aka "Triple Nine Triple Zero"...and he is Cartoon Death Incarnate.
You have been warned. Most likely you will ignore and try anyway. Some things must be experienced to be learned. When he kills you...be polite. Don't accuse him of being a hacker or having a Aimbot...you will simply be making a fool out of yourself. If you manage to fly home in your (now shot to hell) cartoon plane thank him for having mercy on your foolish and unworthy self. :aok
FYI - I wish someone had walked me through these years ago instead of having to learn them all the hard way. And for those who have been on the other end when I've failed to follow some please forgive my foolish behavior and accept my :salute.
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Having started this game in the D9 I'd honestly tell a new player to skip it and use a spit unless they are going to "lone wolf" for a while and actually care about landing kills. D9 is hard for a new player to learn in my opinion.
All this being said...
*Warning: Some of the following constitute ACES HIGH HERSEY. Stop reading now!!*
I think the first thing I'd recommend to any new player would be a list of rules rather than what ride to climb into. They go something like this:
1.) The (EW/MW/LW) MA is the (EW/MW/LW) MA and the DA is the DA. Don't expect DA 1 on 1 dueling behavior in the MA and vice versa. They are used for different things and the generally accepted rules of one do not always apply when in the other. Anyone who states otherwise should be ignored (see rule #8 below for further details).
2.) Never tune to ch200. It's mindless fun for a while...but eventually it drains the soul and the brain. Best to remain happy, whole and intelligent.
3.) Never respond to a PM whine. Ignore it or, if you must reply, do so politely and move on.
4.) You will meet some individuals who act very poorly while playing this game. Use these as an example of how NOT to act. Also...reference rule #8 for further guidance.
5.) A HO shot is where both you AND your opponent have a gun solution with forward firing guns at the same time. Any other situation is NOT a HO shot. Also, while a HO is a valid tactic it's also stupid and considered poor form...you are best to avoid it.
6.) Find a good squad who will teach you wingman and team-based tactics. Use these tactics. Sadly few of these squads exist anymore and those that do are sometimes ridiculed by a minority of players. Again, ignore these individuals and see #8 below.
7.) Getting altitude, attacking from the sun with E, zooming up and repeating and all the things you read about that real (i.e. non-cartoon) fighter pilots use are valid tactics in the (EW/MW/LW) MA. Rule #8 applies to any who state otherwise, complain or hurl insults at you when you use these tactics to end their cartoon existence.
8.) A vocal minority of Aces High players will do or say things that don't make a lot of sense. If you use smart tactics like those listed in rule #7 above...they will say you are meek, cowardly or call you a "score wh0r3". If you manage to be the one to kill them when they foolishly dive into a fight significantly outnumbered they may insult you, blame you for their poor tactics, and may even call you are a "horde monkey" or some similar label. Be polite and remember they pay $14.95 per month and so may play the game as they wish. Remember that you also pay $14.95 per month and so allowed to play the game as YOU wish...not as THEY wish you to play it.
9.) Some of these individuals will ask that you meet them in the DA for a "duel". While you should generally ignore players who are rude, some are actually quite skilled one on one. Accept the challenge, meet them in the DA and film the duels. You may well lose every match, but the experience gained is worth it.
Always be polite during this time...you may find some of the ruder ones will mellow and you may make a friend. For the ones who don't and continue to hurl insults at you...you can secretly smile knowing that your continuing to be nice is irritating them to no end. :D
10.) Every once in a while you will see a lone set of B17s flying low near a fight. You will immediately want to dive on this foolish pilot and crush him in your <fill-in-the-blank-fighter>. Do not give in to this temptation, for that be 999000 aka "Triple Nine Triple Zero"...and he is Cartoon Death Incarnate.
You have been warned. Most likely you will ignore and try anyway. Some things must be experienced to be learned. When he kills you...be polite. Don't accuse him of being a hacker or having a Aimbot...you will simply be making a fool out of yourself. If you manage to fly home in your (now shot to hell) cartoon plane thank him for having mercy on your foolish and unworthy self. :aok
FYI - I wish someone had walked me through these years ago instead of having to learn them all the hard way. And for those who have been on the other end when I've failed to follow some please forgive my foolish behavior and accept my :salute.
good read. :)
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Having started this game in the D9 I'd honestly tell a new player to skip it and use a spit unless they are going to "lone wolf" for a while and actually care about landing kills. D9 is hard for a new player to learn in my opinion.
All this being said...
*Warning: Some of the following constitute ACES HIGH HERSEY. Stop reading now!!*
I think the first thing I'd recommend to any new player would be a list of rules rather than what ride to climb into. They go something like this:
1.) The (EW/MW/LW) MA is the (EW/MW/LW) MA and the DA is the DA. Don't expect DA 1 on 1 dueling behavior in the MA and vice versa. They are used for different things and the generally accepted rules of one do not always apply when in the other. Anyone who states otherwise should be ignored (see rule #8 below for further details).
2.) Never tune to ch200. It's mindless fun for a while...but eventually it drains the soul and the brain. Best to remain happy, whole and intelligent.
3.) Never respond to a PM whine. Ignore it or, if you must reply, do so politely and move on.
4.) You will meet some individuals who act very poorly while playing this game. Use these as an example of how NOT to act. Also...reference rule #8 for further guidance.
5.) A HO shot is where both you AND your opponent have a gun solution with forward firing guns at the same time. Any other situation is NOT a HO shot. Also, while a HO is a valid tactic it's also stupid and considered poor form...you are best to avoid it.
6.) Find a good squad who will teach you wingman and team-based tactics. Use these tactics. Sadly few of these squads exist anymore and those that do are sometimes ridiculed by a minority of players. Again, ignore these individuals and see #8 below.
7.) Getting altitude, attacking from the sun with E, zooming up and repeating and all the things you read about that real (i.e. non-cartoon) fighter pilots use are valid tactics in the (EW/MW/LW) MA. Rule #8 applies to any who state otherwise, complain or hurl insults at you when you use these tactics to end their cartoon existence.
8.) A vocal minority of Aces High players will do or say things that don't make a lot of sense. If you use smart tactics like those listed in rule #7 above...they will say you are meek, cowardly or call you a "score wh0r3". If you manage to be the one to kill them when they foolishly dive into a fight significantly outnumbered they may insult you, blame you for their poor tactics, and may even call you are a "horde monkey" or some similar label. Be polite and remember they pay $14.95 per month and so may play the game as they wish. Remember that you also pay $14.95 per month and so allowed to play the game as YOU wish...not as THEY wish you to play it.
9.) Some of these individuals will ask that you meet them in the DA for a "duel". While you should generally ignore players who are rude, some are actually quite skilled one on one. Accept the challenge, meet them in the DA and film the duels. You may well lose every match, but the experience gained is worth it.
Always be polite during this time...you may find some of the ruder ones will mellow and you may make a friend. For the ones who don't and continue to hurl insults at you...you can secretly smile knowing that your continuing to be nice is irritating them to no end. :D
10.) Every once in a while you will see a lone set of B17s flying low near a fight. You will immediately want to dive on this foolish pilot and crush him in your <fill-in-the-blank-fighter>. Do not give in to this temptation, for that be 999000 aka "Triple Nine Triple Zero"...and he is Cartoon Death Incarnate.
You have been warned. Most likely you will ignore and try anyway. Some things must be experienced to be learned. When he kills you...be polite. Don't accuse him of being a hacker or having a Aimbot...you will simply be making a fool out of yourself. If you manage to fly home in your (now shot to hell) cartoon plane thank him for having mercy on your foolish and unworthy self. :aok
FYI - I wish someone had walked me through these years ago instead of having to learn them all the hard way. And for those who have been on the other end when I've failed to follow some please forgive my foolish behavior and accept my :salute.
+1 :salute
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:rofl
The P-38G would be closer to the P-40C though. I did not mean they are in the top spot. Mossie is probably pretty close to the middle, but I'd guess it ends up closer to the Spit XVI than the P-40C, it is definitely easier than the P-38G.
P-40 fans get the real bragging rights in my opinion.
Only made it to page 10 of this 21pg thread, so i have no idea what direction it went later on, but saw the above quote and wanted to comment.....
Just my thoughts.....I would rank the 38G higher in the list closer to the spit. I run across a 38G with a little stored E and instantly i know I have my hands full....She turns like a beast...(in all fairness tho....if ya see a 38G its usually flown by someone that could have real good shot at killing ya in the Wright Flyer with a sling shot :D)
Agree with the P40 comment above( re: kudos and bragging rights)....been flying the P40 lately....just a blast....but really outclassed taking on multiple cons in LW
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Having started this game in the D9 I'd honestly tell a new player to skip it and use a spit unless they are going to "lone wolf" for a while and actually care about landing kills. D9 is hard for a new player to learn in my opinion.
All this being said...
*Warning: Some of the following constitute ACES HIGH HERSEY. Stop reading now!!*
I think the first thing I'd recommend to any new player would be a list of rules rather than what ride to climb into. They go something like this:
1.) The (EW/MW/LW) MA is the (EW/MW/LW) MA and the DA is the DA. Don't expect DA 1 on 1 dueling behavior in the MA and vice versa. They are used for different things and the generally accepted rules of one do not always apply when in the other. Anyone who states otherwise should be ignored (see rule #8 below for further details).
2.) Never tune to ch200. It's mindless fun for a while...but eventually it drains the soul and the brain. Best to remain happy, whole and intelligent.
3.) Never respond to a PM whine. Ignore it or, if you must reply, do so politely and move on.
4.) You will meet some individuals who act very poorly while playing this game. Use these as an example of how NOT to act. Also...reference rule #8 for further guidance.
5.) A HO shot is where both you AND your opponent have a gun solution with forward firing guns at the same time. Any other situation is NOT a HO shot. Also, while a HO is a valid tactic it's also stupid and considered poor form...you are best to avoid it.
6.) Find a good squad who will teach you wingman and team-based tactics. Use these tactics. Sadly few of these squads exist anymore and those that do are sometimes ridiculed by a minority of players. Again, ignore these individuals and see #8 below.
7.) Getting altitude, attacking from the sun with E, zooming up and repeating and all the things you read about that real (i.e. non-cartoon) fighter pilots use are valid tactics in the (EW/MW/LW) MA. Rule #8 applies to any who state otherwise, complain or hurl insults at you when you use these tactics to end their cartoon existence.
8.) A vocal minority of Aces High players will do or say things that don't make a lot of sense. If you use smart tactics like those listed in rule #7 above...they will say you are meek, cowardly or call you a "score wh0r3". If you manage to be the one to kill them when they foolishly dive into a fight significantly outnumbered they may insult you, blame you for their poor tactics, and may even call you are a "horde monkey" or some similar label. Be polite and remember they pay $14.95 per month and so may play the game as they wish. Remember that you also pay $14.95 per month and so allowed to play the game as YOU wish...not as THEY wish you to play it.
9.) Some of these individuals will ask that you meet them in the DA for a "duel". While you should generally ignore players who are rude, some are actually quite skilled one on one. Accept the challenge, meet them in the DA and film the duels. You may well lose every match, but the experience gained is worth it.
Always be polite during this time...you may find some of the ruder ones will mellow and you may make a friend. For the ones who don't and continue to hurl insults at you...you can secretly smile knowing that your continuing to be nice is irritating them to no end. :D
10.) Every once in a while you will see a lone set of B17s flying low near a fight. You will immediately want to dive on this foolish pilot and crush him in your <fill-in-the-blank-fighter>. Do not give in to this temptation, for that be 999000 aka "Triple Nine Triple Zero"...and he is Cartoon Death Incarnate.
You have been warned. Most likely you will ignore and try anyway. Some things must be experienced to be learned. When he kills you...be polite. Don't accuse him of being a hacker or having a Aimbot...you will simply be making a fool out of yourself. If you manage to fly home in your (now shot to hell) cartoon plane thank him for having mercy on your foolish and unworthy self. :aok
FYI - I wish someone had walked me through these years ago instead of having to learn them all the hard way. And for those who have been on the other end when I've failed to follow some please forgive my foolish behavior and accept my :salute.
So true. Skuzzy should sticky this somewhere :D
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Nonsense. I've flown most of the planes in the game and have gotten kills in all of them. It requires considerably more commitment experience and knowledge of how those planes that have those one or two exceptional attributes work in non advantageous positions that everyone ends up in at one point or another. The D9 for example is much more difficult to fly in that aspect then say. The NIKI or the La7. Yes its great in climb and flat out speed. But find yourself in less then ideal circumstances and things get very dicy in a hurry and you better know the plane inside and out right down to throttle and RPM settings. Far less work in a NIK, Spit, or La where you dont have to think if the plane as much as you do what you want to do.
Just because the D9 has a different crutch than the Niki or LA doesn't mean the crutch doesn't exist. Remember, it's about how the pilot uses the plane and his ability to fight when that style of usage isn't in play.
Let's compare two Dora drivers. Both have been flying the Dora pretty much exclusively for as long as I've been playing this game. Both usually stay fast and above the fray. Both have pretty good gunnery. Seeing either land high single digit scalps isn't that rare of an occurrence. The difference between these two Dora jocks is, when caught in a "non advantageous position", one of them might very well still kill you, but the other is going to flop like a fish and either die or auger. One of those guys uses the Dora as a crutch ride and the other one doesn't. One of those guys probably flies a lot of other planes well and the other one doesn't. It's really that simple.
Again I ask. If there were a new player in the game. would you recommend them the D9 or K4 to start out in? Or something more like the spit the NIK or La7?
Still you can B&Z in any plane in the game. the D9 does it better then many but I've done as much in a 109F as well as a NIKI or LA. But the crutch planes do those other things well too. Thats why they are so popular. You rarely see a ton of 190's in one place. Not so with Spits, Yak3's and La7's
If anything I said above makes any sense to you, this is a silly question.
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I agree with Karnak. The K4 has a superior top speed, superior acceleration, superior rate of climb,better rudder authority and better altitude performance. the K4 is the better plane by a large margin in a 1v1 situation.
I disagree
Having flown a 109k4 for a long time and general N1k2 experience.
while you are right about those specs, the N1k2 has better diving abilities, also has better flaps, and better ammo load out.
If you get equally matched up in 1 v 1 fight in the MA, the N1k2 will most likely win. The N1k2 out turns the k4 all day long. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. I also am willing to bet that in a given 1 v 1 fight the N1k2 could stay in a consistent climb with a 109k and would kill you (aim permitting) by spraying 600-400 away in a climb.
While the K4 is generally a better MA fighter because it accelerates faster and potentially has a better chance of getting away from a hoard. A good N1k2 stick would beat it easily if it had more E and alt advantage. Not to mention, the K4 is very difficult to shoot, which puts it at a disadvantage, if it cannot make the snap shot kill on the reverse, the N1k2 will fly all over it.
Edit: Also if the K4 dives on the N1k2, It better be cutting speed to stay on the target or else you will over shoot everytime by the compression. This also puts k4 at slight disadvantage because with hard to shoot cannons, and compression, it gives the N1k2 ability to reverse, causing the k4 to slow down to try to make a kill, and ends up losing in the reverse rolling scissors against a n1k2.
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Just because the D9 has a different crutch than the Niki or LA doesn't mean the crutch doesn't exist. Remember, it's about how the pilot uses the plane and his ability to fight when that style of usage isn't in play.
Let's compare two Dora drivers. Both have been flying the Dora pretty much exclusively for as long as I've been playing this game. Both usually stay fast and above the fray. Both have pretty good gunnery. Seeing either land high single digit scalps isn't that rare of an occurrence. The difference between these two Dora jocks is, when caught in a "non advantageous position", one of them might very well still kill you, but the other is going to flop like a fish and either die or auger. One of those guys uses the Dora as a crutch ride and the other one doesn't. One of those guys probably flies a lot of other planes well and the other one doesn't. It's really that simple.
If anything I said above makes any sense to you, this is a silly question.
Let's all play the guessing game...
I'm guessing pervert is the killer and Drediock is the auger...what do I win Bob?
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I am a bad stick in the K-4 and against me the N1K2 would either lose or make it a draw. I can't see how the N1K is going to do anything to the K-4 unless you play the N1K's game.
Having done a few hundred duels in the last few months I'd say the climb rate/ acceleration isn't enough if they met co alt to make much difference....the K4 could make it so he doesn't lose....but the N1k would be scrapping at it's heels.
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Let's all play the guessing game...
I'm guessing pervert is the killer and Drediock is the auger...what do I win Bob?
I was thinking either pervert or debrody as killer. The one who augers after fish flopping sounds like 70% of the MA.
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I was thinking either pervert or debrody as killer. The one who augers after fish flopping sounds like 70% of the MA.
Hehehehe
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Let's all play the guessing game...
I'm guessing pervert is the killer and Drediock is the auger...what do I win Bob?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWpKWegV7fc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWpKWegV7fc)
But Bluberry is right. The names are unimportant because there are lots of people that could fit those categories. I could have just made that scenario up. Yeah, that's what I did.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWpKWegV7fc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWpKWegV7fc)
hahaha that link.
:lol
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Let's all play the guessing game...
I'm guessing pervert is the killer and Drediock is the auger...what do I win Bob?
I'd bet you would be very wrong on both counts. I get more people to auger following me then auger myself
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I'd bet you would be very wrong on both counts. I get more people to auger following me then auger myself
That's because you came flying through a fight that was already at stall....they were gonna auger anyway.
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That's because you came flying through a fight that was already at stall....they were gonna auger anyway.
Noooo. I mostly get them to auger with a low alt split S. You think thats easy to do in a D9. Try it sometime
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Noooo. I mostly get them to auger with a low alt split S. You think thats easy to do in a D9. Try it sometime
I believe Drediock may have done that to me the other night, while I was trying to fly a 47N. I was impressed.
- oldman
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWpKWegV7fc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWpKWegV7fc)
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl