Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Muzzy on July 09, 2014, 05:19:35 AM
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I've been experimenting a bit with the Pony-D this tour and I am finding that, in simple terms, I really suck at it. I do very well in the FM2 and the Dora, and I'm not exactly a slouch when it comes to the kind of BnZ tactics that I expect would work with the Mustang, but for some reason I can't seem to get the pony to work for me. I'm thinking this might be in part due to the way I usually fly. The 'stang obviously does not have the turning ability of the FM, and while it has comparable speed to the Dora, it doesn't have the roll rate that I've come to rely on. I'm very comfortable flying those planes, but the pony remains a mystery to me.
I'm thinking that maybe the only way to fly the pony is to use the same tactics I've used in the Tempest: stay fast, pick off targets of opportunity and try not to turn too much. I'd really like to avoid simply picking, so I'd like to ask the pony officianados this question: can you dogfight in the Pony, or at the very least, can you employ some form of tactics that don't involve running like a stuck pig all the time?
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. . . can you dogfight in the Pony, or at the very least, can you employ some form of tactics that don't involve running like a stuck pig all the time?
I think you are trying to match the mustang to your fighting type you are use too.
To start you need to rethink your mindset on a Mustang running all of the time which is common drivel put out by turny-climbers plane people who want all planes to fight them in a turn and or climb fight. Using the speed of the Mustang's speed to reset its position is no different than a spit turning a tight turn or a Ki or K model going up. Each plane has its advantages so play to that.
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The key strength of the Pony is obviously it's speed and good climb rate. Your main tactic in a P-51 is going to be BnZ tactics. Use Yo-Yo's, Chandelle's, and try to keep your speed. The WEP I feel does not add very much at all to acceleration or top speed, but it does help quite a bit in climb rate so save that 5 mins of WEP for when you need that extra boost in the vertical. The P-51 CAN in fact stall fight pretty well (this is something that 99% of the P-51 pilots in game don't seem to realize), but it's not exactly a strong suit of the P-51. It will take quite a bit of experience and skill to win a stall fight against better stall fighters (like a 109) while flying your P-51 but it is possible. Another strength of the P-51 is it's flaps. The first notch of flap can deploy at very high speeds and it makes a world of difference in turning performance. Don't be afraid to drop that first notch or two to get a little more lift so you can get a shot. The flaps deploy VERY quickly so if you can pull them back up instantly and keep your speed.
I've not flown the P-51's a whole lot so I'm just going off my limited knowledge of it and what I've heard the really good Pony pilots say. I'm sure higheye might be around sometime to tell us how awesome the P-51 is and how to fly it. :D
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I thought the 51 was not as good a climber as the Dora, Ki-84 or other climbers?
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It doesn't quite match the Ki84, or the Dora when it uses WEP (though it does have a better climb rate on MIL power)
The P-51 is no slouch in the climb rate category though with a 3,000 FPM climb rate up to 10K on MIL power, and it improves with WEP.
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You can dogfight in the pony, but with a couple rules of thumb. If it is something like a jug or a 190 then it will be a pretty close turning matchup, and you can fight them relatively normally. That is to say you can angles fight them and especially use your flaps to decelerate quicker and get a tighter turn before they can. A K4 is a tougher opponent, and a major threat as it has the power to beat you in an angles fight if things get slow. You have to be patient when flying a 51 and break off if things get too slow with a K4, because a Pony with full flaps out for too long will simply wallow. Your turn rate will take a major hit, and you'll have to just put the nose down, get some separation and reset. Restart the fight fast and use those flaps to get an early angles advantage and make it count before things get too slow again. You can also use this method against many other planes, for example I've done this tactic to a Niki, but it took longer because it starts out with such a large turning advantage.
To fight some of the better turning planes you simply have to E-fight them, as if you get slow at all they will come around on you and most likely out-accelerate you too. Use your top speed advantage to come into the fight fast and then use that to get above them and get an E advantage. Then maintain that advantage through high yo-yo's etc. as you slowly work them lower and lower until they have no where else to go and no E to work with. Be careful with certain planes, especially the Ki-84 and Spit16 as they have the uncanny ability to equalize E states very quickly. You have to stay aggressive, stay close, and stay behind their 3/9 line so they aren't given a chance to gain energy.
On the defensive, I utilize my high speed flaps a lot to force overshoots on planes that don't handle well at high speeds. The 51 can put on the breaks pretty well so you can force some overshoots, but be careful as the 51 also accelerates very poorly and can be killed if your opponent doesn't fall for the overshoot if you don't have some room to dive away. Otherwise use your speed to get away and reset the fight on your terms.
However, the most important aspect of succeeding in the pony is situational awareness. I like to come into fights at about 8-12k to start out with some altitude to work with. If our base is capped I will come in at 16k as the pony doesn't handle as well between 12k-16k for some reason. Anyway, always be looking around as higher cons can quickly spell death if you lose track of them and they end up on your six, with little options as far as outturning goes. You will be forced to try an overshoot which will leave you vulnerable for other cons. If at all possible drag single cons out away from the main flow of traffic and fight them 1v1 where they don't have help waiting to swoop in and kill you.
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The speed of the Mustang is what allows it to be aggressive. The good stang pilots are very aggressive when they have the advantage. At the same time they know to recognize the moment at which the tide has turned against them and go runstag mode again. The ability to escape is what should give you the confidence to engage. Too many players do not know how to switch between the two mind sets.
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If you stay with it for a while, and learn its nuances, you can turnfight with the majority of the planeset, often giving yourself a good chance to win.
From my experiences, the biggest drawback when I get to stallfighting certain planes is the lack of acceleration once I get it too slow. For example, it can stick on a K4 in nose-down turns, but if the K4 manages to scissor a couple of times and go into a climbing turn, the 51 won't be able to follow it. Same thing when fighting a Dora.
I'd recommend turning off Combat Trim when you enter a fight. I usually trim it around 300ias. It suits my style for walking the flaps, working the throttle, and going for angles.
For all the bad comments, it's a very capable fighter. It rolls relatively well, slows down fast, has nice rudder authority, and is very stable.
One last recommendation is the know what your opponent's plane is capable of doing, and learn to negate the advantages it might have.
Btw, TonyJoey is excellent at 1 vs. anything in the 51. It's a shame there aren't more than a a few handfuls of people that try to turnfight it that way.
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Muzzy,
You've been given some good advice so far but if you want to really learn to fly the pony you need to learn to fly it slow! I didnt say fight in it slow I said learn to fly it slow,face it anyone can fly a pony at 300 plus MPH but it becomes difficult to fly once it drops below corner speed! So spend some time in the TA and I suggest you fly figure 8's around a base and try to fly as slow as possible to get an idea of what you can and cant do slow.
That said when I fly the pony,and it's not often these days I set a hard deck speed,ya speed not alt,once the airspeed drops to about 250 mph I will stop turning and go nose up.This does 2 things it allows me to bank some E and it will tighten up my turn radius.When I go nose up I can roll my lift vector behind the enemy and start to fly for a position above and behind the enemy. From there it's a matter of gunnery....... :o
That's all I have,ya it wasnt much but I hope it helps somewhat.
:salute
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Btw, TonyJoey is excellent at 1 vs. anything in the 51. It's a shame there aren't more than a a few handfuls of people that try to turnfight it that way.
Same to you, I always enjoyed running into your silver nosed Pony, or your 38. :salute
The speed of the Mustang is what allows it to be aggressive. The good stang pilots are very aggressive when they have the advantage. At the same time they know to recognize the moment at which the tide has turned against them and go runstag mode again. The ability to escape is what should give you the confidence to engage. Too many players do not know how to switch between the two mind sets.
What he said, spot on. :aok
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The 190D has stellar weight/power ratio and excellent firepower, as well as roll rate. The Fm2 turns very well. Power to weight and turning ability are considered the two most crucial advantages in ACM. The Mustang has neither of these, and doesnt kill on the snapshot like a cannon bird either, so it is unsurprising that you feel like you have stepped down when it comes to your ride. Worst ENY 5 plane ever! You have the speed and range to choose situations where either superior skill or relative e state give you an advantage to make up for a generally deficient plane, and that is about it.
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Also, for some bizarre reason the flaps on the P51 do not help it as much as the flaps help on other planes. Widewing tested this, anything beyond 1 notch degrades turn rate, and anything beyond 3 notches adds alot of drag without helpin radius that much. Bizarrely, the 190D actually has a smaller full flaps radius, even though it has a worse no flaps radius and its flaps were not designed to aid maneuveringg.
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Thanks for the great advice all. I've noticed that it is indeed easy for the mustang to become trapped once it loses e, and unlike the FM2 it's not as easy to fight your way out of the situation. I'm going to try and assimilate all this great stuff and see if it helps.
:salute
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Thanks for the great advice all. I've noticed that it is indeed easy for the mustang to become trapped once it loses e, and unlike the FM2 it's not as easy to fight your way out of the situation. I'm going to try and assimilate all this great stuff and see if it helps.
:salute
Mustang flying requires knowing when to get out. It is nimble but not maneuverable and that can suck you into thinking you can turn it indefinitely, which you can't--unless you are disciplined with your speed.
I wouldn't go vertical on a merge below 350 or so indicated as most planes will be able to follow you up if you're slower. Reset the fight as TJ suggested.
It doesn't do anything particularly well except go fast, so it is a challenge--which is why I like flying it. I was carrying a 4:1 in it a couple tours back and thought I would just retire right there. Lol! Now I am trying to press it even harder (too much?) and the results are not good as yet. (Undisciplined flying perhaps, something you can I'll afford in the Pony.)
Bonez noted a major issue: firepower. If your gunnery is not good (Exhibit A: me) it is tough to score in it on snapshots.
Lots of good advice above. Fess is another good Pony driver. Seek him out.
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Can't fly the damned thing for toffee, not to say I am any good in anything else, but the PonyD :bhead
450mph to stall in one gentle flat turn, compresses like hell, guns are dreadful, only saving grace is the nice RAF skins.
Much happier in the Pony B for some reason.
Simply cannot BnZ in anything :old:
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Now I am trying to press it even harder (too much?) and the results are not good as yet. (Undisciplined flying perhaps, something you can I'll afford in the Pony.)
Ill afford.
Stupid autoincorrect.
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I have searched for awhile for anything the Mustang does better than most which is useful in dogfights. Havent found anything.
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Can't fly the damned thing for toffee, not to say I am any good in anything else, but the PonyD :bhead
450mph to stall in one gentle flat turn, compresses like hell, guns are dreadful, only saving grace is the nice RAF skins.
Much happier in the Pony B for some reason.
Simply cannot BnZ in anything :old:
Rcaf skin :rock
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I have searched for awhile for anything the Mustang does better than most which is useful in dogfights. Havent found anything.
Persistence--you CAN run other people out of gas and turn that to advantage.
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I have searched for awhile for anything the Mustang does better than most which is useful in dogfights. Havent found anything.
It does a lot of things better than most. It's faster than "most", but sure there are some that are faster. With 6 50cals it packs a better punch than most, but not all. It turns better than most at high speed, but not all.
The key here is the word most. Like a number of other planes, they do some things better than most. A zero turns better than most, an F6F dives better than most. A 38 climbs loaded better than most. The trick is to use those strengths and avoid getting stuck in there weaknesses.
Also, far too many people confuse "real life" ponies with "game" ponies. What we do....or in some of our cases.... TRY to do in this planes is far different than how real pilots flew the real things. I don't think real pilots thru their ponies around like we do, nor did they take the kind of "chances" we do, after all we don't die. That throws another whole element into the flying/fighting we do. You can read "Shaw" and any/every other thing you can get your hands on and while it does relate it doesn't give you the whole story because we can push the envelope so much harder.
That's why you hear stories about "he's cheating, a pony can't do that!!!". Well it can, it just wasn't normal to try it because in real life you would have to be an idiot to try it.
The Mustang IS the great plane many believe it to be. Just like anything else it just takes practice.
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Persistence--you CAN run other people out of gas and turn that to advantage.
That's the primary tactic from many Mustang pilots, at least when they don't have a wingman to tag-team you.
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What I am discovering is that it's a lot harder to saddle up on a con than I am used to, although being more effective with high yo-yo's and such does help considerably. The gun package doesn't lend itself to single-kill crossing shots either, so I have to be more creative with regards to setting up my kills. You really do have to set up speed limits, as I have noticed it is very easy to get caught on the deck with no easy way out. The Mustang does work great in open air engagements where you have lots of room to run, but knife fights are really dangerous.
All of this pretty much confirms what you all have been saying of course. :)
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It turns better than most at high speed, but not all.
How many times do I have to explain that this belief is false before the forumites begin to grasp basic aerodynamics? Turn rate and radius is defined by velocity and G loading. Given the same airspeed and G loading, ANY and ALL aircraft will have same rate and radius of turn. A Pony, a Spit, a Corsair, a Hellcat, a Yak, an La, a P-38, an Fm2, whatever, they will all be turning the same when riding the 6g blackout limit at 350 mph, for instance. And all of the above will begin to turn better than the Aces High P-51 as speeds drop and turn performance becomes lift-limited rather than G-limited.
Also, far too many people confuse "real life" ponies with "game" ponies.
I'm fairly certain the real life Pony wasn't handily out-turned by the P-47. If it had been I expect pilots would have noticed. In point of fact they noticed the opposite. But a non-porked P51D would either be at least 50% of the planes seen in the MA or would have to carry a perk price to control its numbers. It is what it is. If you love the Pony in AHI, you deal with the fact that it has almost no inherent advantages in engaged maneuvering and you simply have to take advantage of any mistakes the other pilot makes.
The Mustang IS the great plane many believe it to be. Just like anything else it just takes practice.
In what way is it great? Multiple non-perked contenders can take the speed crown from it at typical MA alts, it's hard to find many 1945 fighters that DON'T climb better than the P-51D, and of single seat fighters, only the 190 series has a larger sustained radius. The fact that the P-51D carries ENY 5 alongside the SpitfireXVI and La7 is an absurdity.
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That's the primary tactic from many Mustang pilots, at least when they don't have a wingman to tag-team you.
Wingman tactics convert a top speed advantage from something not particularly useful for fighting into something that can be quite decisive for "drag and bag". :aok
The other major reason why "speed is life"-the ability to close on bandits from the rear quarter and kill them before they know you are there, and conversely, the low probability of a slower plane being able to close on a faster plane from the rear for a surprise attack-isn't as much of a factor in the MA, due to icons.
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The Mustang does work great in open air engagements where you have lots of room to run, but knife fights are really dangerous.
All of this pretty much confirms what you all have been saying of course. :)
The Mustang can sometimes do surprisingly well at saddling up, almost certainly because people are astonished by the sight of one making a pass at less than 400mph, not because it will turn well. IF, that is, the opponent chooses some sort of flat scissoring or nose-down fight. Many airplanes will leave the Pony's nose stuck in lag QUICK if they use a sustained horizontal or climbing turn. (There are so many times this has happened to me, only to rejoice because seemingly for no reason the opponent reverses his turn direction, putting me back in the game.)
But "saddling up" leaves the Pony excruciatingly vulnerable if there are ANY other bandits anywhere in sight.
The P-51D is a lot like a .223 varmint rifle-Very accurate, but it can be lacking in stopping power. You'll send a lot of planes home engine-smoked and/or PWed. In a close scissors where killing/damaging on a crossing snapshot at point blank is vital to winning, she'll frequently break your heart and have you wishing for Hispanos or taters.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/hsadbmk8ehqzn4s/spitLeft.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/download/hsadbmk8ehqzn4s/spitLeft.ahf)
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Muzzy, if you haven't done so, put your guns at the same convergence point to maximize the hits in one area. Personally, I have them all at 200 yards, as it suits my style, but whatever distance you're comfortable with.
I have a lot of films, so if you're interested, I'll find time this weekend to post the 51 vs. various-plane fights. Just let me know.
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Well said all around Bonez.
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blah, blah, blah real life....
It's funny how I can out turn a NIK with a 51. Its a game. To many of these guys are so tied up in what a plane did in real life that that is what they think it should do in the game. Again, we push things a lot farther in here and the guy that pushes the hardest with out making a mistake is going to be thew winner in most fight.
I'm fairly certain the real life Pony wasn't handily out-turned by the P-47. If it had been I expect pilots would have noticed. In point of fact they noticed the opposite. But a non-porked P51D would either be at least 50% of the planes seen in the MA or would have to carry a perk price to control its numbers. It is what it is. If you love the Pony in AHI, you deal with the fact that it has almost no inherent advantages in engaged maneuvering and you simply have to take advantage of any mistakes the other pilot makes.
Again every plane has its advantages and its bad spots. If everyone took the time to learn the pony yes you would see a crap load of ponys. You will admit that the 262 has better speed than the pony, better guns than the pony yet the pony has 13 kills on the 262 this month. It's not what the plane can do, but what YOU can do with the plane.
In what way is it great? Multiple non-perked contenders can take the speed crown from it at typical MA alts, it's hard to find many 1945 fighters that DON'T climb better than the P-51D, and of single seat fighters, only the 190 series has a larger sustained radius. The fact that the P-51D carries ENY 5 alongside the SpitfireXVI and La7 is an absurdity.
AGAIN each plane has its strengths and weaknesses. The pony is fast, climbs well, carries a lot of ord, has long legs and with 6 50cals good hitting power. Is it the best plane, no, but nobody said it was, but all around its a great plane. And to show what a well flown pony can do, I'll post this film again.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/5c72lgl1q7992wh/51lulz.ahf
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It's funny how I can out turn a NIK with a 51. Its a game.
You cannot actually "out-turn" a N1K with a P-51 unless the N1K driver makes a gross mistake, such as being way over his corner velocity while you are nearer yours. This is a fairly common error of course, but it does not change the fact that Pony is at a disadvantage in a turning dogfight vs. a N1K, as well as most other aircraft in the game. The laws are physics are not up for debate, and Hitech has modeled these laws well. Speaking of physics, I see you aren't defending your completely erroneous statement about the Pony "turning better" at "high speed"...this is progress for you! :aok
AGAIN each plane has its strengths and weaknesses. The pony is fast, climbs well, carries a lot of ord, has long legs and with 6 50cals good hitting power. Is it the best plane, no, but nobody said it was, but all around its a great plane. And to show what a well flown pony can do, I'll post this film again.
"Carrying Ord"-Does not help you win dogfight. In fact it is highly recommended you jettison any ord you may be carrying before attempting to dogfight. :rofl
"Long legs"-Again toting a bunch of fuel around is helpful in many ways, but it does not help you win a dogfight, in point of fact too much of it is a definite handicap in a fight.
"Fast"-Speed is of limited usefulness in engaged maneuvering, though it does allow one to choose one's engagements to a certain extent. High top speed means you may have an energy advantage at the outset of the dogfight, and that is about it. When an airplane has a relatively low power/weight ratio, as the Pony does, this energy advantage will fade quickly while dogfighting. And many, many airplanes are about as fast or faster at typical MA alts-La7, P-47M, 190D9, 109K4, Yak9U....Moreover, all of these planes except the D9 also turn better than the AH P-51.
"Climbs well"-Relative to WHAT? Early war planes? The second most common airplane in the LWMA, the SpitXVI, has an over ONE THOUSAND fpm climb rate advantage over the Pony. The La7, the third in our trio of ENY 5 airplanes, also has a 1000fpm advantage over the Pony at typical MA alts. The Pony's late war German opposition, the D9 and 109K4 *also* greatly out-climb it. Its late war Japanese counterpart, the Ki-84, pwns the Pony in climb at typical MA alt, while the N1K out-climbs it below 8K and climbs about as well up to 12, which is once again typical MA altitudes. The Yak9U climbs about as well or better at typical MA alts, while the Yak3 stomps on the Pony in climb rate at those alts. The P38J/L outclimbs the Pony, so does the P-47M. The above list is a roll call of common planes in the LWMA and *every one of them* beats the P-51D in climb rate at typical MA alts. Even the F4U-1 series, which indeed has a worse steady climb rate than the P-51D, will tend to stick with it in the vertical because of their zooming ability, while also having much greater maneuverability than the Mustang.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/5c72lgl1q7992wh/51lulz.ahf
Really? This is the film you're showing to back up your point? :huh I do not know what you think is unusual or contradictory to what I have to say here, unless it is some incompetent Spit drivers attempting to go head-on with BigR and losing in the first part of the film. Actually what this film demonstrates best is how gunnery is the most important skill...since the guy has no need to "saddle up" to kill, the deficiencies of the P-51 matter less.
Put this guy in practically any other late-war plane, a P-47M for instance and he'd be even more lethal. Kudos to the pilot, the plane remains mediocre.
Here you go. This SpitIX still had to screw up badly to manage losing a fight to a P-51, but was slightly less of a lemming than the two spit drivers in the first part of the film you posted. Still, the only thing demonstrated is that a P-51D has guns and can sometimes shoot the opponent if he manages his advantages poorly.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/qlri58eybwrrxy7/p51spitIX.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/download/qlri58eybwrrxy7/p51spitIX.ahf)
The same thing can be said about the fight with this Spit109Fire, :D, albeit if he had possessed Hispanos instead of a single MG 151 it would have been over early anyway.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/8pp6n6fx6ak7ng7/P51D109Fritz.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/download/8pp6n6fx6ak7ng7/P51D109Fritz.ahf)
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Have you tried the B model? Puma introduced me to it here a couple weeks ago. I found it to be much smoother, faster and agile than the D. It seemed to me to fly like I always assumed a mustang to be like. That thing is a rocket ship. I employed the same tactics I did in the D model but it seemed to get the nose around easier and gain e easier which helped in the slashing attacks.
Theres still several planes ive never flown and all that was stated above is solely my opinion as I don't know the stats of the two given planes. In southern boy terminology:
"Man the 51b is like the 51d just souped up and handles better."
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I have a modest proposal for you Fugi. First, figure out which planes are seeing the most usage in the LWMA, via kills+death. Lusche will have this information at his fingertips for you. Next, find a friend you know to be of your approximate skill level and fight a series of DA matches, using the Pony against the top ten most commonly used LW planes. Then switch out and let the other guy fly the Pony against whatever. At least 3 duels from each of you in the Pony for each matchup. This procedure will tend to eliminate variables resulting from situational luck or pilot skill, and mostly be a test of relative plane performance. Post the films of this experiment when you are done. If, given equal pilots, the Pony wins as often as it loses against other common LW planes, it will tend to support your position. OTOH, if the Pony loses most of these duels with equal pilots, that will tend to support my contention that the P-51D is a fairly mediocre plane for the LWMA.
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In southern boy terminology:
"Man the 51b is like the 51d just souped up and handles better."
:rofl :rofl
NICE!! Cremator
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It seemed to me to fly like I always assumed a mustang to be like.
Cremator, I agree. Of course, computer lag, etc could have a lot to do with it. Based on some time in Crazy Horse, the game's B has more of a D feel and performance, in my opinion. :salute
(http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac270/puma44/a8a814db185e32c3a02279e3381ad431_zpsa474e4de.jpg)
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I have a modest proposal for you Fugi. First, figure out which planes are seeing the most usage in the LWMA, via kills+death. Lusche will have this information at his fingertips for you. Next, find a friend you know to be of your approximate skill level and fight a series of DA matches, using the Pony against the top ten most commonly used LW planes. Then switch out and let the other guy fly the Pony against whatever. At least 3 duels from each of you in the Pony for each matchup. This procedure will tend to eliminate variables resulting from situational luck or pilot skill, and mostly be a test of relative plane performance. Post the films of this experiment when you are done. If, given equal pilots, the Pony wins as often as it loses against other common LW planes, it will tend to support your position. OTOH, if the Pony loses most of these duels with equal pilots, that will tend to support my contention that the P-51D is a fairly mediocre plane for the LWMA.
And here you point out exactly what Im saying. IN THE GAME, not as duels or in any books, ANYTHING can happen. With a good player at the controls the pony it is a great plane. All the numbers in the world are not going to win the fight if you dont know how to fly the plane. YES I can out turn NIKS, YES I can turn faster at speed than MOST 190s YES I can bomb better in it than MOST guys flying bombers. This is because MOST players don't know their planes. Ask Lusche for the numbers MOST players have less than stellar skills if you use the "numbers" to back it.
BigR got all those skills using a "mediocre" plane because he KNOWS his pony and the other players proved they didn't know theres as well.
You either don't understand what I'm saying or refuse to accept what Im saying. Again I should know better than to try and have a conversation with someone who is obviously NEVER wrong and can't possibly see anyone else point of view. Thanks for playing.
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Muzzy, if you haven't done so, put your guns at the same convergence point to maximize the hits in one area. Personally, I have them all at 200 yards, as it suits my style, but whatever distance you're comfortable with.
I have a lot of films, so if you're interested, I'll find time this weekend to post the 51 vs. various-plane fights. Just let me know.
MIR, I'd love to see a few of your films. We have had a few great knock down drag out fights and I'd like to see how you handle more than just my so-so flying.
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Have you tried the B model? Puma introduced me to it here a couple weeks ago. I found it to be much smoother, faster and agile than the D. It seemed to me to fly like I always assumed a mustang to be like. That thing is a rocket ship. I employed the same tactics I did in the D model but it seemed to get the nose around easier and gain e easier which helped in the slashing attacks.
Theres still several planes ive never flown and all that was stated above is solely my opinion as I don't know the stats of the two given planes. In southern boy terminology:
"Man the 51b is like the 51d just souped up and handles better."
What about a D with four guns vs six?
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And here you point out exactly what Im saying. IN THE GAME, not as duels or in any books, ANYTHING can happen. With a good player at the controls the pony it is a great plane. All the numbers in the world are not going to win the fight if you dont know how to fly the plane. YES I can out turn NIKS, YES I can turn faster at speed than MOST 190s YES I can bomb better in it than MOST guys flying bombers. This is because MOST players don't know their planes. Ask Lusche for the numbers MOST players have less than stellar skills if you use the "numbers" to back it.
BigR got all those skills using a "mediocre" plane because he KNOWS his pony and the other players proved they didn't know theres as well.
Agree that it's all about "flying" the particular aircraft. It's great to know all the numbers and be well versed in them. But, if the hands can't translate to flying the aircraft, all the numbers in the world don't mean much.
A common saying out in the real world: "Hamburger is still hamburger, no matter what you wrap it in". :salute
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Puma I'm a little jealous of the picture.
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What about a D with four guns vs six?
Don't waste your time, definitely not worth the loss in killing power vs. any miniscule gain in performance. Just take the Bravo if you want 4 guns, it is a great plane in and of itself and trades a bit of speed for some improved maneuverability.
BnZ, you seem to too easily discount the E-advantage that a Pony will start with at the beginning of most fights. In skilled hands that means almost certain death for the other plane as you should never give them a chance to equalize energy states.
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I have a modest proposal for you Fugi. First, figure out which planes are seeing the most usage in the LWMA, via kills+death. Lusche will have this information at his fingertips for you. Next, find a friend you know to be of your approximate skill level and fight a series of DA matches, using the Pony against the top ten most commonly used LW planes. Then switch out and let the other guy fly the Pony against whatever. At least 3 duels from each of you in the Pony for each matchup. This procedure will tend to eliminate variables resulting from situational luck or pilot skill, and mostly be a test of relative plane performance. Post the films of this experiment when you are done. If, given equal pilots, the Pony wins as often as it loses against other common LW planes, it will tend to support your position. OTOH, if the Pony loses most of these duels with equal pilots, that will tend to support my contention that the P-51D is a fairly mediocre plane for the LWMA.
The MA is not a 1v1 vacuum. There are numerous factors which make the 51 more appealing in the MA. For one, visibility is second to none, with little restricting your view and increasing SA, which is a major factor of MA flying. Secondly, the 6 50's have exceptional ballistics and thus are easy to aim, which makes converting a kill, even very high deflection shots, much easier than if you were to use some of the competition's armament configurations. High speed handling is also exceptional with little loss of control well past the 500 mph mark, allowing high speed dives to escape or catch that 262 that got too cocky. The great fuel is another major factor that lets you loiter over a target area for much longer than in many other rides. Often I'll be over a base and I'll notice one of my countrymen has made two trips to the base while I've been there. You have enough fuel with 75% (or 75% and DTs from a base off the front) to comfortably get to altitude, loiter and engage for 20+ minutes, and then fly home. Much more often will I run out of ammo before I run out of gas. Your top speed allows you to get an E-advantage in most cases, or in others, to drag a higher con away from the main flow of traffic where you'll hopefully be able to suck him down and either escape or kill him. Either way, without the speed to drag the con where you want to fight him, you are just asking to get ganged in the MA. All these factors combined with very effective flaps and an already decently maneuverable plane make it a very effective "killer" in the MA.
Is it one of the best "duelers" in a 1v1 vacuum? No.
Is it one of the best choices for an MA environment? Absolutely.
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Puma I'm a little jealous of the picture.
:D Yea, the fun meter doesn't even register near high enough.
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BNZ, you are wrong on several issues.
First, not all planes turn the same at a given speed and G when they are G limited - turns are almost never sustained at 6G and the high-wingloaded planes have an initial advantage in a stupid flat max-G turn because they will reduce their radius quicker. The P51 can delopy flaps at 400 mph which adds drag when G limited and keep it G limited to a lower speed. It also rolls well at high speeds where many turny planes roll like pigs, so it had an advantage in initiating the turn.
The P-51D in real life was not such a stellar performer. Up high at 30k the P47 out performed it in climb acceleration and turn (speed perhaps not except the 56th jugs), but this does not help the P47 if he cannot outperform the p51 over Berlin and cost much more both to buy and to operate. Down low the P51 was better than the other USAAF planes, but the later F4Us were still better. RAF Spit14 and Tempests did almost everything better than the P51, again except for the fact that they could not do it where it was needed.
In the game the P51D is one of the top fighters. Against what you say the P47 will NOT out turn it in a sustain turn - the 47 can cut a corner better at high speeds because it dumps energy even faster than the 51, and the 47 rolls better so it initiates turns quicker. On top, an empty P47 will not fly for long. The Jug enjoys a short period of "light" fuel load but to have endurance it must carry HUGE amounts of fuel and suffers for most of the sortie. The 51 is much more economic and can last much longer near its optimal weight (i.e. with low weight of fuel) before it is forced to RTB. The only thing I do not like about the 51 are the 6x50s that do not have the insta-kill power and the P51 is not well suited to sustain tracking shots (turny planes are better for that, fast arrow-like planes are better suited to cannon snapshots)
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This reminds me of the F4F vs A6M thread in this forum not so long ago.
The stats guys decided the F4F had no chance against the A6M. I tried to argue that the F4F stood a good chance as long as the pilot knew what he was doing and exploited "all" his advantages, not just those the plane match-up provided.
Soon after that thread died the Pacific War scenario began. The A6M's flew to a stalemate at Pearl Harbor, at least twice the aircraft allowed were lost by the Japanese at Midway and they were soundly defeated at the Solomon Islands. So much for wing loading, excess power, etc.,etc., etc. The little Grumman came out victorious against both A6M2's and A6M3's.
Anyone who tells you a certain plane is incapable of fighing to victory over any other simply doesn't know how to fly it. I've seen SkatSr and a couple others make a Pony D dance against my Spitfires. Clearly they didn't give two craps about what the stats said. Likewise I've flown to victory on several occasions against "double superior" fighters in the 190A-8.
Let the stats boys fly the best of the best LW fighters for fear of running into a superior aircraft and wonder why they still lose. Learn to fight and it won't matter what you're in.
BTW, I don't fly much anymore but so far this camp I have better stats in the F4F-4 than I do in the Spit IX. Now which is superior?
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I flew the P-51D for the first time in awhile the other night and I have to say, what a plane! I love how it picks up speed in a dive, and unlike the Jug, it keeps that speed through lots of maneuvering. Feels a lot like a Ta152 in the sense that you can make so much more out of a Small E advantage than other planes might be able to with that same advantage. And unlike the F4u[my beloved] its not as tempting to blow all your precious speed to get into a turn fight with a kite. I like it better than the 190D, better gun package and its good high speed handling allows me to pull lead with ease, especially when dropping a notch or 2 of flaps.
My only problem is the roll rate seems pretty average, I'm used to plane with superb roll rates such as the F4u P47 P40 190 109 etc.
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BnZs,
Arena impact plays a large role in HTC deciding what the ENY of an aircraft ought to be. The P-51 gets its ENY because it is so used, almost twice the usage of the Spit XVI. Which is better air-to-air, probably the Spit, but the P-51D is far, far better air-to-mud.
Arena impact is why the P-51D has an ENY of 5 and the Mosquito VI has an ENY of 30 despite actually being fairly comparable in performance down low where most action in AH takes place.
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so I'd like to ask the pony officianados this question: can you dogfight in the Pony, or at the very least, can you employ some form of tactics that don't involve running like a stuck pig all the time?
I'm no 51D fiend any means.. I consider myself a Jug Driver .. but reading your OP, it reminded me of my early trials with the Jug & the level of frustration I felt just trying to figure out "how to not only survive, but fight in the damned thang".. I learned quickly to keep it fast & get alt, then use angles to shoot & avoid the shot, & then keep it fast using angles.. & when all else fails.. get faster..
I Honestly feel that flyin the Jug has helped me with flyin the other planes..
Just this mornin on a whim, I took up a Pony-D, lots of fuel, & just went out & farted around.. I was at 12k & wound up against a Ki84 bout 3k higher..
to make a long story short.. he kept climbing, & I wouldn't go up with him.. I'd just stay fast & extend away & climb when it was safe.. & watch for him to come to me.. when I had time, I was passive & would let him do what ever.. but I stayed fast (250+) & I only got aggressive when he got near me.. he'd climb up everytime, & that let me get some distance.. but I'd never commit to 'his fight'.. after 10mins or so he went boom..
I paid close attention to my speed & did my best to stay above 250.. when I got 'slow', if possible, I'd dive & extend away, & if not I'd turn to him & make him overshoot..
well, he got furstrated/greedy/bored/whatever..& really tried for a one pass kill.. he didn't make it..
Stick with the Pony-D.. but realize what it can do & can't do.. fly it accordingly, no matter what you're up against..& remember, it's gonna take time & many many fights..
<S>
Wrngway
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Don't waste your time, definitely not worth the loss in killing power vs. any miniscule gain in performance. Just take the Bravo if you want 4 guns, it is a great plane in and of itself and trades a bit of speed for some improved maneuverability.
BnZ, you seem to too easily discount the E-advantage that a Pony will start with at the beginning of most fights. In skilled hands that means almost certain death for the other plane as you should never give them a chance to equalize energy states.
Thanks, TJ.
Now to learn how to do what you state in your last sentence.
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The MA is not a 1v1 vacuum. There are numerous factors which make the 51 more appealing in the MA. For one, visibility is second to none, with little restricting your view and increasing SA, which is a major factor of MA flying. Secondly, the 6 50's have exceptional ballistics and thus are easy to aim, which makes converting a kill, even very high deflection shots...
Is it one of the best choices for an MA environment? Absolutely.
I agree.
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And here you point out exactly what Im saying. IN THE GAME, not as duels or in any books,
Dueling is part of the game, last time I checked. Anyway, if you want to assert that the Pony is at least as good as most other late war planes at dogfighting, then you need to demonstrate that it can win dogfights with them with equal pilots at the controls, starting from a neutral merge. Such duels would remove the variables of pilot skill and situational advantage, and leave it purely to the attributes of the plane to give victory or defeat.
It is not logical to say "The Pony is a great dogfighter because I saw a great pilot defeat an inferior pilot who made multiple mistakes in his own ride."
With a good player at the controls the pony it is a great plane.
Again this is illogical. A mediocre plane with a good player behind the stick remains a mediocre plane. They cannot alter the plane's physical attributes as modeled by HTC. They can use what they have better than an unskilled player can. If the other player makes gross enough mistakes, the more skilled player can take advantage of them to win even in greatly inferior rides. This does not change the relative quality of the planes. Moreover, it logically follows that however lethal a very skilled player may be in a mediocre ride, they'd be even more lethal in something else that is superior. That is certainly the case with the Pony. Hand BigR a P-47M, a better-turning, faster-rolling, better-accelerating aircraft with heavier firepower, and the opposition would be deader even quicker
YES I can out turn NIKS,
The N1K has a smaller turn radius and a better rate of turn than the P-51D, both instantaneous and sustained. You absolutely cannot out-turn a N1K in a P-51D unless 1. You have altered the game to make your P-51D turn better than the physics HTC models allow for (which I don't believe is the case) or 2. The N1K pilot makes a mistake, the most common of which is excess speed while trying to turn due to poor throttle control. Have you ever heard of something called corner velocity? If the N1K pilot is in excess of both his own and the P-51D's corner velocity while the Pony is nearer its own, the P-51D may indeed (briefly, until speeds bleeds off for both planes in the fight) have a tighter turn radius and a better rate. But this does NOT mean you defied physics and somehow made a P-51D turn tighter than a N1K can, it means the opponent screwed up badly and made his N1K turn worse than its potential! The necessary corollary to this is that a N1K pilot who gets out-turned by an opponent in a P-51D will lose even more quickly and certainly if they switch planes and go at it, because the P-51 is decidedly inferior to the N1K in turn performance.
YES I can turn faster at speed than MOST 190s
Define "at speed". A Pony and a 190 over about 300mph IAS are both above their corner velocities. This means they can pull to the 6G AH blackout limit without trouble. The laws of physics state that two airplanes pulling the same Gs while going the same speed will have the same rate and radius of turn, no matter what kind of airplanes they are. If this were not how it works in AH, then Hitech would be modeling the laws of physics incorrectly.
But he does model them correctly. Thus the only way you can literally "out-turn" a 190 while both of you are going 350mph is if you have altered the game (which I do not believe is the case) to make your cartoon pilot withstand more Gs. However, it is far more likely that the 190 gets out-turned because (once again) it is way over it's corner speed while the P-51D pilot manages his speed better and is thus closer to corner.
It should also be pointed out that the 190 series airplanes are practically the only single-engine fighters worse in most parameters of turn performance than the P-51D. Thus if both are you are managing your planes equally well, you SHOULD win a turning fight with a 190, due once again to the laws of physics. Thus your example doesn't argue whatever point you're trying to make (It's difficult to tell, you define things so vaguely), but said example is another good example how the physical attributes of an aircraft define its performance.
That said, the 190D9 is superior to the P-51D in every parameter EXCEPT turn performance at typical MA alts, almost all other late-war fighters in the game are superior to the P-51D in turn performance, and most of them are equal or superior in power/weight at typical MA alts as well. Therefore, logically speaking the P-51D is mediocre as a Late War dogfighter
BigR got all those skills using a "mediocre" plane because he KNOWS his pony and the other players proved they didn't know theres as well.
I watched the film. Again, *most* of what it demonstrates is that superior gunnery can often render the attributes of the plane moot. And the rest of what it demonstrates is that superior skills can make up for inferior plane performance. Relative pilot skill level and relative aircraft performance are two separate issues which you insist on conflating.
Your argument is essentially "A very superior pilot in a P-51 can kill an inferior pilot in X aircraft. Therefore the P-51D is as good an aircraft as X aircraft." And THAT is what we call a non sequitur.
An equivalently fallacious example would be an expert marksman saying "I can shoot a handgun as accurately as most people can shoot a rifle. Therefore handguns are as inherently accurate as rifles."
You either don't understand what I'm saying or refuse to accept what Im saying. Again I should know better than to try and have a conversation with someone who is obviously NEVER wrong and can't possibly see anyone else point of view. Thanks for playing.
I don't know if anyone can understand what you are saying, since you are vague at best and often conflate two entirely separate issues, such as mixing up relative aircraft performance with relative aircraft performance. You attempted to argue with some factual information I have written via generalities, confused fuzzy logic, and at least one fallacy that demonstrates you don't understand the basic laws of physics as applied to fighter performance (The "P-51 turns better at high speed!" thing). Then when everything you have to say is refuted by logic, you take your toys and go home, or do the "chess playing pigeon" thing. I have observed that this is generally your MO in any discussion.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/fc35goo75nlfmu4/P51DvYak3.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/download/fc35goo75nlfmu4/P51DvYak3.ahf)
This fight is a good example of the mediocrity of the P-51D. I don't know if a single other LW fighter would have had trouble with the Yak3 going vertical like that from a roughly co-speed state, as the P-51 did here. Certainly not the SpitXVI or La7, despite the fact that the P-51 bizarrely also shares their ENY of 5. Nor a 109K or a P-38 for that matter, for all their higher ENY numbers. All would almost certainly have been able to match zoom performances with the Yak long enough to kill.
After the Yak successfully ropes the P-51 and puts it in a very bad spot, only mistakes in speed management on the Yak pilot's part make it squirt out in front of the P-51 and allow for the P-51 to have any firing opportunities at all. These are opportunities that a more heavily armed, faster rolling P-47M could have taken far better advantage of. Really any of the Late War planes named thus to far would have been more advantageous in this fight than the P-51D, with the *possible* exception of the 190D9. The whole fight was basically a serious of mistakes by BOTH pilots, with a lot of missed shots on both sides being the most important factor in why this thing lasted as long as it did.
In fact, this engagement is another demonstration of how gunnery is the most important skill of air combat. Either pilot could have easily ended the fight with the shots they missed.
I believe the Yak3 pilot had to basically be having an off day to lose this one to a P-51, although I will say the Yak probably would have gotten shot down at 00:35 or so if it had tried going vertical like that against any plane less mediocre than the Mustang, which is to say virtually Late War plane. Then again, the pilot probably wouldn't have tried that move against any Late War fighter except the Mustang.
If I was a particularly fuzzy thinker, I might say something like "Look, I made my P-51 out-turn a Yak-3", and crow about da mad skillz, or insist that the P-51D is as good at dogfighting as a Yak-3, or some other horsepuckey. But of course that is absolutely NOT the case, relative turn performance did not define the geometry of this fight at all, and the only reason the Yak-3 didn't win rather easily is almost certainly because the pilot was having a "bad hair day" as it were.
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BnZ, you seem to too easily discount the E-advantage that a Pony will start with at the beginning of most fights.
I accept the likely possibility that something will start higher than my P-51 (because I don't always climb to 25K like some Pony pilots. Not talking about you man, you know the sort I'm talking about) and I accept the possibility that I can be jumped during/immediately after a fight, both things rendering any E advantage the Pony's top speed may give in a co-alt merged a very unreliable factor indeed.
Then there is the fact that so many darn things are about as fast or even faster than the Mustang, many if not most of them also building energy through acceleration faster.
In skilled hands that means almost certain death for the other plane as you should never give them a chance to equalize energy states.
TJ, through pilot skill you can kill the crap out of things in the Mustang in the MA. I submit that you would kill the crap out of things even better in the MA with equal amounts of practice in the D9, F4U-1A, P-47M, 109K4, etc.
Energy fighting is hard, and relies on skills in gunnery being above average. The "certain death" thing just because you have an E advantage is ONLY true if one is a GREAT gunner. Most are not as good as you at gunnery. I am not as good as you at gunnery, after close to a decade of *trying* to be, ya know? Watch my film where I'm fighting the Yak if you don't believe me on that one ;)
This is why you all the time hear "I reversed that Pony's E advantage and he ran away!" instead of "That Pony came in with an E advantage and shot me down!"
Yes if Bruv119, as an example, is above one in a P-51, it is very likely that one is going to get shot down, really no matter what one is flying. Man is an aimbot. However, if he is in a high SpitVIII, the situation is far, far worse for anyone below him than it is when he is in a Pony.
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Arena impact is why the P-51D has an ENY of 5 and the Mosquito VI has an ENY of 30 despite actually being fairly comparable in performance down low where most action in AH takes place.
And this is a hugely illogical aspect of the game. If the P-51D and Mosquito amount to the same performance in different shapes, then there is no practical, logical reason for them to have different ENY numbers.
I wish there was a way for fighters flown without ords to fall under a different ENY number than when they are flown with ordnance. If bomb load is indeed the only logical reason we are left with for the P-51s ENY being 5, as seems to be the case.
It is absolutely absurd that defeating a 109K4 with a P-51D will earn more perk points than defeating a P-51D with a 109K4, and absolutely absurd that the ENY system designed to help out the low numbers team will take away P-51s from the high numbers side long before it takes away P-47Ms.
I can remember when the P-51s ENY was 8, and that was closer to being right.
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This reminds me of the F4F vs A6M thread in this forum not so long ago.
The stats guys decided the F4F had no chance against the A6M. I tried to argue that the F4F stood a good chance as long as the pilot knew what he was doing and exploited "all" his advantages, not just those the plane match-up provided.
I've ended up doing Fm2 against A6M5 1v1 a lot, and the Fm2 stands no chance *unless* the Zeeker makes mistakes. And sometimes they can still make some mistakes and win. Why this continual urge to conflate pilot superiority/inferiority with plane superiority/inferiority?
Likewise I've flown to victory on several occasions against "double superior" fighters in the 190A-8.
Everyone posted on this thread has done that. That is in the nature of being a veteran. I seem to be the only vet who realizes that exploiting the mistakes of a pilot in a superior fighter does not somehow make the planes themselves equal.
Also you, me, and everyone else posting on this thread has run into an equally skilled pilot while flying double-inferior and had our tulips handed to us without too much trouble, due to superior performance. Or even run into someone one could normally beat in a "duel" but had our tulips handed to us by superior plane performance.
Learn to fight and it won't matter what you're in.
Really, it won't matter at all? So you are saying that you could beat a clone of yourself in a SpitXVI while you fly a 190A8 at least 50% of the time, in fair fights?
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Against what you say the P47 will NOT out turn it in a sustain turn - the 47 can cut a corner better at high speeds because it dumps energy even faster than the 51, and the 47 rolls better so it initiates turns quicker.
Really? Have you tested this in a careful, controlled manner? Mosq has.
https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?cid=4F7912F19B484B3B&resid=4F7912F19B484B3B!761&app=WordPdf&authkey=!AH41epN2ncdKKcg (https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?cid=4F7912F19B484B3B&resid=4F7912F19B484B3B!761&app=WordPdf&authkey=!AH41epN2ncdKKcg)
According to him, the P-47D-11 will turn a smaller radius both clean, with one notch, and with full flaps, although it's sustained *rate* will be slightly less. One wonders what testing the P-47D-11 with two notches of flaps, which I believe is the sweet spot for sustained turn rate, would show relative to the Pony's one notch, which is the best setting for sustained turn rate in the Mustang.
But the P-51D's relevant late war competition is the P-47M after all, and that thing just crushes the Pony sustained rate and radius as the flaps come out in the fight. While simultaneously rolling faster, being more heavily armed, tougher, and about equal in flat-out speed.
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I've ended up doing Fm2 against A6M5 1v1 a lot, and the Fm2 stands no chance *unless* the Zeeker makes mistakes. And sometimes they can still make some mistakes and win. Why this continual urge to conflate pilot superiority/inferiority with plane superiority/inferiority?
Everyone posted on this thread has done that. That is in the nature of being a veteran. I seem to be the only vet who realizes that exploiting the mistakes of a pilot in a superior fighter does not somehow make the planes themselves equal.
Also you, me, and everyone else posting on this thread has run into an equally skilled pilot while flying double-inferior and had our tulips handed to us without too much trouble, due to superior performance. Or even run into someone one could normally beat in a "duel" but had our tulips handed to us by superior plane performance.
Really, it won't matter at all? So you are saying that you could beat a clone of yourself in a SpitXVI while you fly a 190A8 at least 50% of the time, in fair fights?
You miss the point of my post.
This is the help and training forum. To make pure statistical plane comparisons "proving" that one plane is superior to another relegates one new to the genre to seek out the "best" of the late war fighters, even if that airframe may not best suit their flying style.
There's more to this than strict aircraft performance and those that would believe that wing loading, excess power etc. are going to make them rise to the top of the fighter ace list will be severely disappointed while those who learn the nuances of BFM, ACM and gunnery will rise regardless of their ride.
Over the years the "equal pilots" scenario has been raised on many occasions. So has the "first to make a mistake" scenario. Even against an equal pilot you can win without that pilot making a mistake. If he's reacting to you you have the initiative as it takes time for him to react and if on each reaction you gain a little the situation can be turned to your advantage.
Could I beat myself in a Spit XVI with an A-8? Possibly. The A-8 holds advantages in dive speed, zoom climb, durability, firepower (with the big gun package) and roll rate. That's a lot to bring to the table to exploit but if you don't know how to use it none of it makes a difference.
IMHO picking a plane you like that suits your flying style then learning to fight in it will provide a far richer game experience than beating yourself up trying to pick the best airframe.
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I submit that you would kill the crap out of things even better in the MA with equal amounts of practice in the D9, F4U-1A, P-47M, 109K4, etc.
I would have to disagree strongly with this statement. The armament configurations greatly limit the effectiveness of the D9 and K4 (atleast in my hands) and the F4U lacks the top speed of a more "pure" BnZer or energy fighter. In other words, the 51 possesses a large bag of positive characteristics that aren't merely limited to T/W or wing loading that make it a more favorable choice in the MA environment. The 47M is extremely similar to the 51, to the point that it really would make no difference, but the 51 has got so much more history (than the M model that is) so it's a pretty easy choice for me.
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Ah TJ, I suggest you examine the D9's gun package more closely. The guns are slightly inferior ballistically than .50s, but they hit harder, have a big ammo load, and critically both cannons and mg are mounted close to centerline. All things considered the package is superior to 6x50s for a bnz aircraft. Also suggest you look at speedcharts for the f4u1a. It is faster than the 1d or chog, nearly as fast as the Mustang, while simultaneously turning better, rolling better, and carrying a longer clip. And it operates off carriers to boot!
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But the P-51D's relevant late war competition is the P-47M after all, and that thing just crushes the Pony sustained rate and radius as the flaps come out in the fight. While simultaneously rolling faster, being more heavily armed, tougher, and about equal in flat-out speed.
BnZ,
Just out of curiousity, how do ya rate the P47N compared to the P47M, Pony as well as the 190D ??
Wrngway
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Really? Have you tested this in a careful, controlled manner? Mosq has.
https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?cid=4F7912F19B484B3B&resid=4F7912F19B484B3B!761&app=WordPdf&authkey=!AH41epN2ncdKKcg (https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?cid=4F7912F19B484B3B&resid=4F7912F19B484B3B!761&app=WordPdf&authkey=!AH41epN2ncdKKcg)
According to him, the P-47D-11 will turn a smaller radius both clean, with one notch, and with full flaps, although it's sustained *rate* will be slightly less. One wonders what testing the P-47D-11 with two notches of flaps, which I believe is the sweet spot for sustained turn rate, would show relative to the Pony's one notch, which is the best setting for sustained turn rate in the Mustang.
I stated this many times before - while I appreciate MOSQ's efforts, that list bears next to no practical value to MA dogfights. The planes are tested in irrelevant conditions that are very rarely met. You should see my collection of raging PMs about how it is impossible for a mosquito/P47 to hang with a Spit/KI84/Yak3/etc. during several flat turns and in many cases even gaining angles. The reality is that planes almost never fly around the same circle, and almost never at the same speed, and almost never in sustained turns. Unless the disparity in turn rate/radius is absolutely huge, the pilot that understands the geometry and the interplay between turn radius and turn rate will win. This is why late war planes go for speed and visibility (SA) and tend to neglect classic turning ability.
But the P-51D's relevant late war competition is the P-47M after all, and that thing just crushes the Pony sustained rate and radius as the flaps come out in the fight. While simultaneously rolling faster, being more heavily armed, tougher, and about equal in flat-out speed.
The P47M is generally a superior fighter to the P51D, and so it was in real life. As I said above in the thread, the P51D was not the best fighter in the US arsenal. What it had that made it so successful is a combination of qualities, not all of which help in winning a duel. This is similar to the F6F that was a much more significant WWII fighter than the F4U, due to qualities that had nothing to do with pure performance - the F4U was clearly a superior performer. It is all about the total package.
As for the P47M and P51D comparison, the 56th FG had P47Ds that were boosted to the same level as the P47M already in early 1944. This is one reason they were so convinced that their P47s were the superior fighters and they requested to keep them. The P47 range was still limiting though, but one FG out of the 8th AF was acceptable. The P47Ms when arrived were not a big upgrade for them.
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I stated this many times before - while I appreciate MOSQ's efforts, that list bears next to no practical value to MA dogfights.
I find that sustained turn rate comes up fairly often in the MA. And the minimum sustained turn radius gives at least some indication of how tight the planes can turn at corner, how well they can slow-fly in the scissors, etc.
The planes are tested in irrelevant conditions that are very rarely met. You should see my collection of raging PMs about how it is impossible for a mosquito/P47 to hang with a Spit/KI84/Yak3/etc. during several flat turns and in many cases even gaining angles.
Why must we insist on conflating pilot error with plane performance, again and again?
Honestly I have found Mosquitos, to not be terribly difficult to dogfight or sometimes even reverse from disadvantage when flying something like a 109K or an La. And those two aren't anywhere near the most maneuverable planes, I'm sure in a SpitXVI the fight would be easier. But in a P-51D against an equal pilot in the Mossi, I tend to lose that fight over the long run. I've got to call a fighter which loses dogfights to a twin-engine fast bomber with equal pilots fairly mediocre.
As for the P47M and P51D comparison, the 56th FG had P47Ds that were boosted to the same level as the P47M already in early 1944. This is one reason they were so convinced that their P47s were the superior fighters and they requested to keep them. The P47 range was still limiting though, but one FG out of the 8th AF was acceptable. The P47Ms when arrived were not a big upgrade for them.
Yes, I would *love* to have a razor-back Jug with a paddle bladed prop and "hot-rodded" as they were...probably not going to happen though.
The P-47 has superior firepower, and critically, its ruggedness tended to bring pilots home. This is a very, very rational reason for a real combat pilot to prefer the P-47 over the more fragile Mustang, but it has nothing to do with dogfighting ability.
OTOH, many of the pilots who switched from 47s to 51s liked the change because the Mustang's performance and maneuverability allowed them to fight the 190s and 109s on a more equal footing than had been the case with the P-47. This maneuverability advantage does not exist in the P-51 as modeled in AH, this being the only WWII flight sim I've ever played with wherein the Jugs can out-turn the Mustangs. "The P-47 wasn't so bad because we could out turn and outclimb it, initially. [...] The P-51 was something else."-Walter Wulfrum, Luftwaffe ace with 137 victories.
But in the game, it is what it is. The P-51 is mediocre in the LWMA. Those are the simple facts of the case. But if you think it is pretty or love the history of of it etc, fly it anyway. With a bit of skill and luck you'll be able to get many victories despite the planes inferior qualities.
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BnZ,
Just out of curiousity, how do ya rate the P47N compared to the P47M, Pony as well as the 190D ??
Wrngway
The P47N carries a lot more fuel than other Jugs, and often gets tested that way, so the N comes out looking worse compared to the M than it really is in climb rate. They have the same engine power after all, the N has more fuel tankage and a larger wing, and retains hardpoints on the wings. So at equal fuel states the N is slightly heavier and draggier than the M, but not as much as it can look like on the climb performance chart. The N will also roll faster at high speed than other jugs, because of the squared off wing tips.
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Here is a series of duels I fought with the venerable Flyman92 :salute, in the interest of learning the capabilities of the 109K4 better. Even though I have relatively little experience with this airplane, I gave a marginally decent account of myself, even managing to win a couple. Yet I have also encountered his K4 in my P-51D numerous times, an airplane I have lots of experience flying, and I can't remember a single time when he didn't beat me without too trouble, even when I had an initial energy advantage over his 109. Things like this force me to admit that the P-51D is probably mediocre as far as LWMA airplanes go, much as I'd like to disprove that notion.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/flyzozbdoqjvndl/FlymanK4duels.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/download/flyzozbdoqjvndl/FlymanK4duels.ahf)
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I have fought against Jugs of all kinds many many times in the MA? When it gets down to a turn fight they always outrate me in the turn, especially slow. It is often a stalemate for five or six complete turns but the Jug always gains on me over time.
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Wow this thread has generated a lot of interesting debate.
First, just to clarify my own intentions: I'm not learning the Mustang simply to find a better aircraft; I'm learning it so that I can be competent in it whenever the situation calls upon it. I want to be able to fly the 'stang when it's listed in a pickup mission or in scenario or other special events. I also confess a curiosity about the bird because of its historical representation. As such, I am less interested in finding out whether it's a good or mediocre bird as much as I am in finding out how to fly it optimally. Were I to post about the 38 or the P40, my intention would be the same. I don't care if it's a good bird or not, I just want to be able to bring out the best in it when necessary.
That said, here are a few additional issues that I've discovered:
When buff killing or diving on an unsuspecting target, I am finding that it is harder for me to get a good guns solution. The Mustang has a different feel in a dive than my trusty FM2 or even the Dora, and as such, getting that quick kill is sometimes harder because I can't quite time the dive and/or get the deflection shot as well as I am used to. Again, this may be just a timing issue. I might need to change my angle of attack in order to compensate, but any advice would be helpful. My approach on low cons, or on buffs for that matter, is usually to dive from pretty much right on top of them. With the buffs I walk my bullets as I am diving, aiming for a wing root from a high angle and avoiding any dead six approaches. With low unsuspecting cons, I try to drop to a low six and come up just a bit to take the shot. In both cases I am either not getting enough hits for an instant kill, or I'm missing altogether.
What I have learned with the Mustang is to keep it fast, either above or at corner speed depending on whether I want to stay clear of the melee or engage more aggressively. I'm not going up and over as much as I am diving in, extending in a gradual climb to restore e and then coming back for another pass once I'm about 2.0 out from the target. As the con gets lower I start pressing the attack more closely, being careful to keep up my energy state as much as possible. I try to keep it at corner speed and wear the opponent down, and I'm finding that even slowed down a little, I have enough power to extend if I need to. It's when I'm below corner speed that things start to get hairy.
All in all, I'd say the Mustang can be very effective once you've learned its tricks. It's not necessarily my ride of choice, but it is no longer a bird I shun completely.
Addendum: I think with the buffs my problem is I can't make adjustments as easily as in the FM2. With the Wildcat, I usually have to adjust my angle upwards as I dive, i.e. as i come in I'm usually hitting the tail first, and I have to pull up a bit to bring the guns to bear on the wing root, unless of course I've lined it up perfecting on the first pass. With the Mustang, I can't adjust fast enough to get the bullets where I want them to go, and I don't quite have the timing to hit the wing root on the first pass.
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I'm not going up and over as much as I am diving in, extending in a gradual climb to restore e and then coming back for another pass once I'm about 2.0 out from the target.
I'd say allowing 2.0 is a little too far for good BNZ. You don't want them to have time to re-build energy or even think. Here's a very old, but still very good, TA film of Widewing showing yours truly how to really BNZ well back when I first started out.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/1vgdz0332xm/WWBNZME.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/download/1vgdz0332xm/WWBNZME.ahf)
Also keep in mind that while slowing the P-51D can go badly wrong, it is usually very *surprising* to the opponent.
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Why must we insist on conflating pilot error with plane performance, again and again?
This is not about pilot errors. The pilot's error was in how he got into the situation, not the way he pulls on the stick. There is no magic or skilled control of the plane involved.
One example: a spit16 pilot that memorized the charts remembers that his spit has a much smaller turn radius than a mosquito. So, he chops throttle, cuts inside the mossie circle and settles into a very small radius turn. The mossie keeps a higher speed and flies a larger circle. Now the spit pilot looks back and what does he see? the mossie hanging there, just a few degrees away from a shot, going round and round. How is that possible?
This fight has settled into planes flying on two co-centric circles - a small one for the spit and a larger one for the mossie. The slow spit cannot pull his max sustained DPS because he is flying a small circle. The mossie on the larger circle can match the spits DPS, but will never get a gun solution because the spit's circle is completely inside his. So from the spits point of view, the mossie is turning with him and if the spit does anything except keep on turning a small circle, it will die.
So what is the conclusion? that the mossie turns as well as a spit16? of course not. It means that max turn rate & min turn radius lists are not very useful. That was the only point I was trying to convey.
I've got to call a fighter which loses dogfights to a twin-engine fast bomber with equal pilots fairly mediocre.
If a 109K will try nothing but flat turns against a mosquito or a P38 it will likely lose. A 190D9 will lose even worse. I dont care about lists, this is what happens in the MA. That does not mean that the 109K or the 190D9 are the lesser fighters, because the 109K that is flat turning against these planes is not playing his strong cards and 190D9 is a terrible dueler but an exquisite combat plane that excels in large engagements - not unlike the P-51D.
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I'd say allowing 2.0 is a little too far for good BNZ. You don't want them to have time to re-build energy or even think. Here's a very old, but still very good, TA film of Widewing showing yours truly how to really BNZ well back when I first started out.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/wyzdossggbm/WidewingBNZ.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/download/wyzdossggbm/WidewingBNZ.ahf)
Also keep in mind that while slowing the P-51D can go badly wrong, it is usually very *surprising* to the opponent.
That's you showing Klauss how not to BnZ actually. :)
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Ummm...you just described a very bad pilot error by the SpitXVI pilot. The nose to tail chase is won primarily by turn RATE, which peaks at corner velocity and which falls off badly if the opponent allows his airplane to get below best sustained speed. If he chops his throttle below corner velocity in this situation he is making a mistake, probably derived from an epic failure to study basic ACM theory enough to understand that turn-rate wins the nose-to-tail chase. The SpitXVI's much better cornering and sustained turn rate are VERY useful here unless the pilot (almost inexplicably) screws it up for himself.
Most spitters are more likely to make the opposite mistake, leaving the throttle wide open all the time. But speed way in excess of the bandit isn't actually too bad a problem for a decent spit pilot, he will just use the basic principle of resetting in the vertical and come back down with advantage. Only if he finds himself closing with way too much speed and tries to compound that error by turning in-plane will he run into real trouble, as this film I already posted demonstrates.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/hsadbmk8ehqzn4s/spitLeft.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/download/hsadbmk8ehqzn4s/spitLeft.ahf)
"If the 109K tries nothing but flat turns"-Which is to say, if the 109K pilot is utterly incompetent, the other guy will win. ACM101 in these games involves, among other things, a discussion of the advantages of vertical maneuvering over flat turns.
190D9 is a terrible dueler but an exquisite combat plane that excels in large engagements - not unlike the P-51D.
Unlike the P-51D, the 190 has a power/weight ratio (read climb and acceleration) that is fairly competitive with the rest of the Late War monsters. And unlike the Pony, its gun package is excellent for killing with one high-speed snap shot. Add to all this fabulous roll rate, and you've got an airplane that is prime in all respects EXCEPT turning ability. Whereas the Pony is poor to mediocre in all respects EXCEPT top speed. This is a very important distinction.
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That's you showing Klauss how not to BnZ actually. :)
Crap. This should be right this time.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/1vgdz0332xm/WWBNZME.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/download/1vgdz0332xm/WWBNZME.ahf)
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There are a lot of 'absolutes' going on in these debates, which don't translate directly into the fighting or what these planes are capable of in this game.
I don't particularly think of ENY when choosing a ride. I pick something that is fun to play in, and often fun to fight in against it's intended use.
More often than not, the 51 can hold it's own and kill better 'turners' in prolonged turn fights. This is against new players, veterans, and everything in between. I'm not the best either.
Limiting yourself to keeping it fast limits the options during a fight. Get it slow, use low yo-yo's to gain an angle. High yo-yo's as well. If you're just doing nose-to-tail chasing, start thinking in three dimensions.
As I said in my prior post, learn what the other plane(s) can do as well.
In this game, a 51 can stick to the six of most of the plane set if the fight starts with some alt and works down. Just learn to do it.
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In this game, a 51 can stick to the six of most of the plane set if the fight starts with some alt and works down. Just learn to do it.
Yes, if one the many planes in the game which boast both superior turning ability and superior power/weight ratio choose to fight the P-51D primarily nose down, the Mustang stands a better chance of winning, per the Yak film I posted earlier. This as opposed to a climbing turn fight, which the Mustang cannot follow for very long, so it must go nose-down to maintain speed and wait for the opponent, who now has the initiative of height, to come back down upon it.
One could also say that the Mustang will win if the opponent deliberately guides their aircraft into a tree. It would be equally true, and equally irrelevant when it comes to the fact that the P-51D is a poor dogfighter compared to most of its Late War counterparts. :devil
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There are a lot of 'absolutes' going on in these debates, which don't translate directly into the fighting or what these planes are capable of in this game.
I don't particularly think of ENY when choosing a ride. I pick something that is fun to play in, and often fun to fight in against it's intended use.
More often than not, the 51 can hold it's own and kill better 'turners' in prolonged turn fights. This is against new players, veterans, and everything in between. I'm not the best either.
Limiting yourself to keeping it fast limits the options during a fight. Get it slow, use low yo-yo's to gain an angle. High yo-yo's as well. If you're just doing nose-to-tail chasing, start thinking in three dimensions.
As I said in my prior post, learn what the other plane(s) can do as well.
In this game, a 51 can stick to the six of most of the plane set if the fight starts with some alt and works down. Just learn to do it.
This is some great advice! :aok Afterall it's a game and meant to be fun,I only pointed out the obvious which is in order to survive in a 51 you're best off to keep it fast. That said,I personally think you can learn alot by just getting down and dirty,win or lose,if you dont push the envelope you just wont progress.
Just last night a player in the TA augured in a couple of time and was getting frustrated,then I said if you arent crashing you arent pushing the limits and it's the only way to learn just how far you can push things.
IMHO the best players ingame are the ones who are having fun,win,lose or draw!
:salute
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Well said Morf!
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This is some great advice! :aok Afterall it's a game and meant to be fun,I only pointed out the obvious which is in order to survive in a 51 you're best off to keep it fast. That said,I personally think you can learn alot by just getting down and dirty,win or lose,if you dont push the envelope you just wont progress.
Oh, flying "stupid" can definitely be more fun in the P-51D, especially when you manage to win a dogfight in what amounts to a handicap plane. :aok
I'm still eagerly waiting for someone to post about the thing the P-51D does really well that will make it very lethal to an equal pilot dogfighting you in a Spits, 109, and Hog etc., techniques that will let me out-dogfight Flyman's K4 and all that. If such a thing exists I'd love to know about it. So far there have been many shouts of "The Pony is a good plane!" but nothing of substance about WHY it might be a good plane for dogfighting. And the craziest film examples of envelope-pushing in the Mustang have all been posted by me, ironically enough.
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Yes, if one the many planes in the game which boast both superior turning ability and superior power/weight ratio choose to fight the P-51D primarily nose down, the Mustang stands a better chance of winning, per the Yak film I posted earlier. This as opposed to a climbing turn fight, which the Mustang cannot follow for very long, so it must go nose-down to maintain speed and wait for the opponent, who now has the initiative of height, to come back down upon it.
One could also say that the Mustang will win if the opponent deliberately guides their aircraft into a tree. It would be equally true, and equally irrelevant when it comes to the fact that the P-51D is a poor dogfighter compared to most of its Late War counterparts. :devil
What you're saying is not limited to the 51 though, and I'd say the majority of the MA fights go nose down rather than into climbing turns. My earlier post commented on the 109's and Doras climbing, and those gave the 51 trouble.
There are some keys in fighting it when slow, and I believe you know these too, but many folks don't. For example, many folks will keep the flaps fully deployed while trying to climb. They'll also keep the throttle firewalled, with WEP, and not maintain stability when going nose up, especially to the right. But these are lessons that should be learned for all rides, not just the 51.
I can't watch your films at the moment, so please pardon if I'm saying something that you've shown in them.
I believe most of us know the 51 isn't a Spit 9 or 109-F, but in an arena full of folks that don't put in much time to really learn what these planes can do, it can hold it's own, in the right hands.
If I encounter a 51 that's going to get slow and dirty, and I'm in something else, say a 109, I'll climb to the right with less than 100% power. We know the 51 can't follow, and I'll get on it's six. If I'm a 38, I'll make sure the 51 doesn't fool me into getting too fast, and I'll try to keep the fight slow, where I can outmaneuver it.
The absolutes are the only thing of this debate that bother me, since we don't experience any physical issues from throwing these planes around. It would be interesting if there was vomit and dizziness from several minutes of low-to-high G yank and bank... heh :)
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Oh, flying "stupid" can definitely be more fun in the P-51D, especially when you manage to win a dogfight in what amounts to a handicap plane. :aok
I'm still eagerly waiting for someone to post about the thing the P-51D does really well that will make it very lethal to an equal pilot dogfighting you in a Spits, 109, and Hog etc., techniques that will let me out-dogfight Flyman's K4 and all that. If such a thing exists I'd love to know about it. So far there have been many shouts of "The Pony is a good plane!" but nothing of substance about WHY it might be a good plane for dogfighting. And the craziest film examples of envelope-pushing in the Mustang have all been posted by me, ironically enough.
I'll get the links to the films tonight. I'll see if I can access the links now, but I don't allow FTP from our corporate PCs, and I don't remember them offhand. :)
For a bunch of folks, it doesn't matter if they're in a the best plane or a mediocre plane. They're just GOOD! Put Latrobe in a garbage can with wings and he'd probably get a kill on somebody.
But, in my opinion, what is has for it are the following: ability to dump speed, good roll rate, nice rudder authority, ability to gain an angle with the use of flaps, rolling into a turn, and a low yo-yo, and nice stability when slow.
If 5 ENY is reserved for the best planes of the set, I don't think it would be a 5 ENY plane. I'm not sure how and why ENY was determined.
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Oh, flying "stupid" can definitely be more fun in the P-51D, especially when you manage to win a dogfight in what amounts to a handicap plane. :aok
I'm still eagerly waiting for someone to post about the thing the P-51D does really well that will make it very lethal to an equal pilot dogfighting you in a Spits, 109, and Hog etc., techniques that will let me out-dogfight Flyman's K4 and all that. If such a thing exists I'd love to know about it. So far there have been many shouts of "The Pony is a good plane!" but nothing of substance about WHY it might be a good plane for dogfighting. And the craziest film examples of envelope-pushing in the Mustang have all been posted by me, ironically enough.
This is where you are either being obtuse, or just not on the same wave length as the rest of us. In the game MOST players are not EQUAL. 90 times out of 100 you can fly a pony like you would a spit against another spit and you will win the fight. Same goes for against a 109K4 or any other planer. There are very few that fly the planes to the edge of their limits. Too many people, like your self go by what the book says, and so they will enter a fight with a NIK and get a bit slow and ....because a pony cant turn with a NIK.... RU........ err extend. But knowing the pony and how well it can actually turn, and slow for over shoots, and recover from a stall quickly you CAN fight a NIK with out RU..... err extending.
You can type pages and pages of info with sources and numbers and "facts" compiled with all the data you can muster but I KNOW I can out turn some NIK as well as spits, because I KNOW most players don't have a clue how to fight the plane they are flying as so I can take advantage of that.
This is what the rest of us are talking about, not the stats page, or the test flight data, just regular old game play.
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You know what's adorable Fug? The way in which you run your mouth without knowing a thing about me, in a manner which makes it obvious you have not watched a single film I have posted to this thread. Almost as adorable as your simultaneous ignorance of basic aerodynamics combined with your vehemence in while expounding on fallacy. Makes me smile :)
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You know what's adorable Fug? The way in which you run your mouth without knowing a thing about me, in a manner which makes it obvious you have not watched a single film I have posted to this thread. Almost as adorable as your simultaneous ignorance of basic aerodynamics combined with your vehemence in while expounding on fallacy. Makes me smile :)
ahhhh so your being deliberately obtuse. Have it your way you are once again right and everyone else in this thread is wrong.
Carry on.
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BnZ, no offence but the OP was asking for tips and techniques on flying the 51.
Not once did he ask if it was better than or the best at anything he was just looking to improve his flying abilities. Somewhere you came in and changed the discussion to how bad or mediocre the 51 is and that almost any plane can beat it in a dogfight.
Whether or not this is true is debatable,IRL the 51 was said to be not as good as a spit but could be not as good over Berlin while the spit could barely cross the channel!In AH this really isnt a factor except in events where the added range can be a real asset.
BnZ,you seem to want to break it down to almost a duel situation or 1v1 yet conveniently forget that it's often many V many in the MA and events and this is where the ponies and FW's can shine despite their "lack" of.... {use your term as required}
TonyJ quite correctly pointed this out already and I would add that if flown to it's strengths,while this may be boring to some,the 51 is more than a match for any plane. Of course the same could be said for many of the planes but again even I'm straying off point and thats simple that the OP would like to improve on his abilities in the 51!
:salute
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Btw, ever listen to any Kanye? He's another proud non-reader of books, trusts his feelings over those pesky facts and logic. You two would get on famously ;)
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BnZ you're missing the point Fugi is trying to communicate. You're fighting human pilots who make mistakes, not computers who fly perfect and make the best decision every time. If two computers fought each other 51 vs. K4 it would probably be a stalemate as the 51 would extend as it should when the fight gets too slow where the K4 will win. However, because we're fighting other people we can often fight the pilot just as much as the plane . I've gone toe to toe many times with Flyman's, Latrobe's, Grizz's <insert uber 109 stick here> many times and have held my own in the 51. You have to get a bit creative, but there is no need to go into the fight thinking you've already lost because a 109 is better on paper. Come in to the merge with a couple notches of flaps already down for a quick angles advantage and quick kill if they get careless. If they go vertical, depending on the merge you might get a good tracking shot, or just maybe pop off a quick burst to let them know you're there before breaking off and resetting. Remerge again with the flaps down and try for a shot again. If the fight gets slow, simply use your top speed to reset. Next time come in full bore with WEP and go for an energy merge, where you have a large chance of catching them off guard and getting above them, at which point you hold all the cards. At any point in this type of engagement, if the 109 gets careless even once you have a good chance of killing him. You just have to be patient and not get sucked slow for too long.
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The last two fighter tour winners flew mustangs for the most part. Didn't Paladin win the tour before Tony Joey's win? Paladin is super sharp in the mustang and as a side note a really nice person to fly with in the MA.
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Morf: I also posted multiple films of a P51 dogfighting more maneuverable planes, and one film that is practically a "how to manual" on boom and zoom tactics ;) I also discussed the sort of mistakes a P51 pilot can look for in the opposition and the pitfalls a Mustang can run into...heh.
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You know what's adorable Fug? The way in which you run your mouth without knowing a thing about me, in a manner which makes it obvious you have not watched a single film I have posted to this thread. Almost as adorable as your simultaneous ignorance of basic aerodynamics combined with your vehemence in while expounding on fallacy. Makes me smile :)
:lol
Pwnage.
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Morf: I also posted multiple films of a P51 dogfighting more maneuverable planes, and one film that is practically a "how to manual" on boom and zoom tactics ;) I also discussed the sort of mistakes a P51 pilot can look for in the opposition and the pitfalls a Mustang can run into...heh.
Fair enough,although I didnt get a chance to view the films!
What I dont understand is why the agenda? It appears you think the eny is wrong on the 51 and if thats the case there are forums for that.
Again I find myself straying off topic,this should be the case in the Help forum!
:salute
PS: the post above mine is totally uncalled for,this is help and training not the GD forum.
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BnZ you're missing the point Fugi is trying to communicate. You're fighting human pilots who make mistakes, not computers who fly perfect and make the best decision every time. If two computers fought each other 51 vs. K4 it would probably be a stalemate as the 51 would extend as it should when the fight gets too slow where the K4 will win. However, because we're fighting other people we can often fight the pilot just as much as the plane . I've gone toe to toe many times with Flyman's, Latrobe's, Grizz's <insert uber 109 stick here> many times and have held my own in the 51. You have to get a bit creative, but there is no need to go into the fight thinking you've already lost because a 109 is better on paper. Come in to the merge with a couple notches of flaps already down for a quick angles advantage and quick kill if they get careless. If they go vertical, depending on the merge you might get a good tracking shot, or just maybe pop off a quick burst to let them know you're there before breaking off and resetting. Remerge again with the flaps down and try for a shot again. If the fight gets slow, simply use your top speed to reset. Next time come in full bore with WEP and go for an energy merge, where you have a large chance of catching them off guard and getting above them, at which point you hold all the cards. At any point in this type of engagement, if the 109 gets careless even once you have a good chance of killing him. You just have to be patient and not get sucked slow for too long.
I went to the DA to train with one of the best fighter pilots in this game last week (someone you might not expect it to be). He offered to help me learn. Guy has killed me in the MA 1000 times already so I was glad for the offer.
We fought Pony against Pony several times. Then he went into different planes and situations. Zeke, Spit, 38, 109, Hawg. Co-E, advantaged, disadvantaged. He taught me some defensive tactics I need to work on.
His assessment: "You are a really good at turn fighting a Pony, you manage E very very well, and have exceptional SA."
(He also noted that DA skills don't translate to the MA in a direct manner. Which is true, as noted above by others.)
My hardest fights against him were in his 38. The Zeke and Spit were hard to hit but I had what some call "contempt of engagement"--I didn't have to fight if I didn't want to. The most success I had was Pony vs Pony. Hawg was a near stalemate--I lost.
My gunnery is atrocious at times as I don't lead enough and there are many times I am a fraction of available G short of pulling guns onto the target.
The key to success in the Mustang is the setup. TJ and Fess are exceptional at this. You can turn fight it all day long and still lose. I do it often, sadly.
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PS: the post above mine is totally uncalled for,this is help and training not the GD forum.
Point your "GD" invective at Fugitive then. Thank you. Bonez is asking good questions that only TJ seems to be answering.
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Best comment yet Morph, I ignore them too :)
When a man believes he is ALWAYS right he is very often blind to other views.
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Best comment yet Morph, I ignore them too :)
When a man believes he is ALWAYS right he is very often blind to other views.
^^^ Case in point. Enough with the insults, veiled or otherwise. It is a tired, limp shtick.
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Feeling lonely? Got to stick your nose in where it doesn't belong. At least Bonez post were marginally on topic. Welcome to the ignore list.
So much for the "Help" part. (I have always found announcing ignoring someone rather strange, in and of itself.)
Okay. Back to the subject at hand. :cheers:
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Fair enough,although I didnt get a chance to view the films!
Muzzy mentioned having a difficult learning curve with the Mustang, I said that this was probably because the airplane is fairly mediocre in several respects, someone repeated a widely-held fallacy about some airplanes "turning better" at high speed and blackout Gs, plus other non-logical noise and it spiraled out of control from there... :salute
Also, if anyone really knows "the thing the Pony does really well in a dogfight", something akin to the Hog's scissors or the P-38's vertical performance, mayhaps I can bait them into spilling the beans by insulting our favorite plane. :devil
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Point your "GD" invective at Fugitive then.
I'm thinking you misinterpreted General Discussion as something else.
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I'm thinking you misinterpreted General Discussion as something else.
Nice try, BE. :salute
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Stop with the pissing match in this thread.
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Stop with the pissing match in this thread.
I think Fugitive is pissing on BoneZ for no good reason. He has a Saul Alinsky approach to debate--keep changing the subject.
BoneZ has made some good points. TJ is the only one addressing them head on.
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I'm thinking you misinterpreted General Discussion as something else.
TY Bald!
:salute
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If the fight gets slow, simply use your top speed to reset. Next time come in full bore with WEP and go for an energy merge, where you have a large chance of catching them off guard and getting above them, at which point you hold all the cards. At any point in this type of engagement, if the 109 gets careless even once you have a good chance of killing him. You just have to be patient and not get sucked slow for too long.
But isn't the Kurt as fast or faster at all altitudes, and a much better accelerator?
I can dive away I suppose, but wouldn't that put me lower upon coming back to the Kurt while flying an airplane that doesn't climb well? Also terra firma puts a limit on that diving stuff eventually.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=0&p2=1&pw=1>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
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TY Bald!
:salute
Nice stretch. Don't pull a muscle.
You said "GD Forums" when you should have said "GF Forums" or "GD Forum". Your meaning was clear. Unveiled. You had an opportunity to correct it after I quoted you and did not.
I will get a Rule 4 and you will be given a pass, per par.
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Muzzy mentioned having a difficult learning curve with the Mustang, I said that this was probably because the airplane is fairly mediocre in several respects, someone repeated a widely-held fallacy about some airplanes "turning better" at high speed and blackout Gs, plus other non-logical noise and it spiraled out of control from there... :salute
Also, if anyone really knows "the thing the Pony does really well in a dogfight", something akin to the Hog's scissors or the P-38's vertical performance, mayhaps I can bait them into spilling the beans by insulting our favorite plane. :devil
"Really well?" Probably just the ability to pull from lag to lead for a shot, if it's there, using the flaps.
Most other things fall into the "Fair to decent" category. :)
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Here are a bunch of films versus different planes, wins, losses, and draws.
I don't remember all of them, but the c202 was PotNPans, and the 47M was Bruv.
I have many more that I named for a particular fight, but I've never gone through and stripped the fight out of them. Good intentions, short on time.
(Just added one more)
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-109k4.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-109g14.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-109G6.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-38j.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-38j_2.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-3cons.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-51d.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-c202.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-f6f.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-la7.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-la7_2.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-n1k2.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-p38g.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-p47m.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-spit16.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-spit8.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-ta152.ahf
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Thanks Mir <S>
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Thanks Mir <S>
Anytime <S>
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But isn't the Kurt as fast or faster at all altitudes, and a much better accelerator?
I can dive away I suppose, but wouldn't that put me lower upon coming back to the Kurt while flying an airplane that doesn't climb well? Also terra firma puts a limit on that diving stuff eventually.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=0&p2=1&pw=1>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
But that advantage is largely balanced out by the fact that you are choosing when to disengage. He has to react to you and often still has to go through a turn or entire rolling scissor before he is able to give chase. By then you are already 1-2k away and building up speed. That is why I agreed wholeheartedly with bozon's original post in this thread:
The speed of the Mustang is what allows it to be aggressive. The good stang pilots are very aggressive when they have the advantage. At the same time they know to recognize the moment at which the tide has turned against them and go runstag mode again. The ability to escape is what should give you the confidence to engage. Too many players do not know how to switch between the two mind sets.
Developing the ability to quickly and accurately analyze the situation mid-fight is invaluable as a Pony driver, as you can tell when the bandit is getting angles and it is time to disengage. If you immediately disengage at this point, you can pretty comfortably get separation and reset the fight, even if he holds a slight speed and acceleration advantage.
And don't get me wrong, you shouldn't expect to win every engagement against planes such as the K4. However, the fight is in no way as one sided as you seem to believe if you truly know the Pony inside and out and mix in some creativity and unexpectedness.
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And don't get me wrong, you shouldn't expect to win every engagement against planes such as the K4. However, the fight is in no way as one sided as you seem to believe if you truly know the Pony inside and out and mix in some creativity and unexpectedness.
Oh.. that is very true about unexpectedness. The ponies that get me are the ones that surprise me - I see him coming in with lots of speed as usual, I initiate a lazy turn saving E to blast the pony as he goes by, reverse expecting to see him spill ahead but instead he is there still behind, flaps out and barrel rolling with me... now there an "oh ****!" moment for you. Sustained turns, radius, charts... the 51 will get me before long before they become applicable.
Also, if anyone really knows "the thing the Pony does really well in a dogfight", something akin to the Hog's scissors or the P-38's vertical performance, mayhaps I can bait them into spilling the beans by insulting our favorite plane. :devil
Many on many engagements do not work out the same as a duel. In a furball, especially against coordinated wingmen, the best dueling moves of the 109K will get it killed fast. Climbing spirals, vertical stalls, slow sustained turns etc are likely to get you killed no matter what you fly, so your plane may as well not reply on them. You do not need a single feature of "the thing the Pony does really well in a dogfight", it is about the whole package. There are no trump cards in a furball, but generally the faster planes and those with better SA prevail and the P51D is good at those. Good, no one said it was the best, quite the opposite.
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But isn't the Kurt as fast or faster at all altitudes, and a much better accelerator?
I can dive away I suppose, but wouldn't that put me lower upon coming back to the Kurt while flying an airplane that doesn't climb well? Also terra firma puts a limit on that diving stuff eventually.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=0&p2=1&pw=1>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
In my experience against the K4 you can sustain your E longer and run it out of gas. But you need that E advantage to begin with or he will run you down. When I have outrun them it has always been a bit of a surprise.
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Oh.. that is very true about unexpectedness. The ponies that get me are the ones that surprise me - I see him coming in with lots of speed as usual, I initiate a lazy turn saving E to blast the pony as he goes by, reverse expecting to see him spill ahead but instead he is there still behind, flaps out and barrel rolling with me... now there an "oh ****!" moment for you. Sustained turns, radius, charts... the 51 will get me before long before they become applicable.
That is why I've adopted the idea of never underestimate any plane as an axiom. Gotta watch what he actually does, not execute a pre-formed plan based on what one thinks he will do.
Many on many engagements do not work out the same as a duel.
In a furball I'd gladly trade a large amount of turning ability for speed, cannons, and acceleration. The Mustang has *one* of those. I find the Mustang has to be flown more carefully than say a D9, because it can't just light the burners and scoot away nearly as easily. And careful flying...meh.
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Now this is what I'm talking about! :salute
Here are a bunch of films versus different planes, wins, losses, and draws.
I don't remember all of them, but the c202 was PotNPans, and the 47M was Bruv.
I have many more that I named for a particular fight, but I've never gone through and stripped the fight out of them. Good intentions, short on time.
(Just added one more)
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-109k4.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-109g14.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-109G6.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-38j.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-38j_2.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-3cons.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-51d.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-c202.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-f6f.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-la7.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-la7_2.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-n1k2.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-p38g.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-p47m.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-spit16.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-spit8.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-ta152.ahf
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The buffet sound seems to be continuous when you are in sustained turns a lot of times...I was told to hold just *below* it for best turn...was I told wrong?
Here are a bunch of films versus different planes, wins, losses, and draws.
I don't remember all of them, but the c202 was PotNPans, and the 47M was Bruv.
I have many more that I named for a particular fight, but I've never gone through and stripped the fight out of them. Good intentions, short on time.
(Just added one more)
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-109k4.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-109g14.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-109G6.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-38j.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-38j_2.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-3cons.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-51d.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-c202.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-f6f.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-la7.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-la7_2.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-n1k2.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-p38g.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-p47m.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-spit16.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-spit8.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-ta152.ahf
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Here are a bunch of films versus different planes, wins, losses, and draws.
I don't remember all of them, but the c202 was PotNPans, and the 47M was Bruv.
I have many more that I named for a particular fight, but I've never gone through and stripped the fight out of them. Good intentions, short on time.
(Just added one more)
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-109k4.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-109g14.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-109G6.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-38j.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-38j_2.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-3cons.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-51d.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-c202.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-f6f.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-la7.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-la7_2.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-n1k2.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-p38g.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-p47m.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-spit16.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-spit8.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-ta152.ahf
Your flap usage during maneuvering is prodigious. Any chance you could speak about it a bit?
After your ACM skill, it's the key to your maneuvering in the P-51D at all speed ranges between 110 and 390, which obviously takes your opponents by surprise. I noticed CMex squirted you in the face from his N1K2 at the end to get rid of you after all of your work frustrating him. The spits and C202 didn't fair any better trying to excel at their native maneuverability from too high of an initial speed. You pulled that spit16 into a higher speed, which he was over confident about it's maneuverability. Nice use of your higher speed to pull planes out of their maneuverability range before forcing them to over shoot or pulling back into them along with that first notch of flaps.
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Yes, mostly seems to be kill through deceleration.
Mir, got any films of what to do when the Mustang actually has the energy advantage to work with against a more maneuverable plane? Strange as it may sound, sometimes I feel like I have more questions about how to prosecute that situation than what to do when going for the overshoot...
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Bustr, the way I work the flaps is to extend them to decelerate and try to get inside the other guy's turn, then raise them as needed for that little bit of E that might be needed. It's a habit that I do in every plane I fly, from the 51 to a 38 to a 190 to a La7. I know that many planes aren't turning 'better' with the flaps extended, but for my style, I try to get slower, get inside the turns, then go from there, and raise the flaps to build some speed.
It's just been my style to get slow, which goes back to AW4W, and when I first started learning a 38. Granted, it was easier back then, and doing it in this game leaves me vulnerable a lot, but it's a habit that came back naturally after being out of the game for a decade.
BnZs, I'll look for some films, but I'm not sure if I have any where I have a pure E advantage. I will check though, and see if I can find some where there is either a noticeable speed or alt. advantage.
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The buffet sound seems to be continuous when you are in sustained turns a lot of times...I was told to hold just *below* it for best turn...was I told wrong?
The stall buffet indicates that at least a part of a wing is stalled. The wing as a whole is likely close enough to max AOA at that point. With flaps out the outer wings stall later than the inner wings so the best sustained turn with flaps likely includes the stall buffet while the best sustained turn without flaps may or may not include the stall buffet. Since turns are speed and radial g you'll want to note how much drag the buffet adds.
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The stall buffet indicates that at least a part of a wing is stalled. The wing as a whole is likely close enough to max AOA at that point. With flaps out the outer wings stall later than the inner wings so the best sustained turn with flaps likely includes the stall buffet while the best sustained turn without flaps may or may not include the stall buffet. Since turns are speed and radial g you'll want to note how much drag the buffet adds.
Thank you! This answers a lot of mysteries for me!
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The stall buffet indicates that at least a part of a wing is stalled. The wing as a whole is likely close enough to max AOA at that point. With flaps out the outer wings stall later than the inner wings so the best sustained turn with flaps likely includes the stall buffet while the best sustained turn without flaps may or may not include the stall buffet. Since turns are speed and radial g you'll want to note how much drag the buffet adds.
Thanks, FLS. I didn't know this. I'm just going by feel.
The biggest thing I notice about my flying is the lack of coordinated turns when slow.
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Thanks, FLS. I didn't know this. I'm just going by feel.
The biggest thing I notice about my flying is the lack of coordinated turns when slow.
That may be insufficient or incorrect use of rudder.
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That may be insufficient or incorrect use of rudder.
Oh yeah, I know. It's one of my faults when fighting slow. I imagine it would be a horrible ride if it was real. :)
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Oh yeah, I know. It's one of my faults when fighting slow. I imagine it would be a horrible ride if it was real. :)
You are absolutely correct. It is can be Mr. Toad's wild ride. Accelerated stalls in the real Mustang are quite impressive. Add some out of coordinated turn, opposite rudder, and it's an instant snap to follow the rudder.
Try going to the TA and fly around at slow speed in the configuration you typically fight at slow speeds. Pay attention to the ball in the turn and slip indicator. Keeping the ball centered will put you in coordinated flight. Use the rudder as you your primary flight control during slow speed fights. Use of too much aileron in a slow fight can and most often causes a stall, snap, spin event.
When there is a need to quickly reverse course in a slow fight, use a boot full of rudder vs the ailerons. :salute
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Thanks.
I've done that and practiced over the years. It doesn't happen for me in the 51. At a decent speed, it's easy. I can also do it fine when I'm putzing around slowly and not in a fight, but when I'm fighting out of it's 'comfort zone', the coordinated turns are gone.
It's one of those things that we can get away with in the game.
It will be interesting when motion simulators eventually become mainstream in 5, 10, or 20 years. Pretty much meaning my desk would be covered with puke. :)
:salute
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Thanks.
I've done that and practiced over the years. It doesn't happen for me in the 51. At a decent speed, it's easy. I can also do it fine when I'm putzing around slowly and not in a fight, but when I'm fighting out of it's 'comfort zone', the coordinated turns are gone.
It's one of those things that we can get away with in the game.
It will be interesting when motion simulators eventually become mainstream in 5, 10, or 20 years. Pretty much meaning my desk would be covered with puke. :)
:salute
Yea, I understand. I have the same problem and have to force myself to slow control inputs or it's the stall, snap, spin event. It's too bad the computer/stick input/frame rate/lag and all the other delays can't keep up with the brain pan inputs.
Have you tried grabbing a punching buddy to go in the TA and take turns chasing each other around? A lot of getting use to this computer max performance slow speed maneuvering is muscle memory and some adrenaline rush thrown in.
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It will be interesting when motion simulators eventually become mainstream in 5, 10, or 20 years. Pretty much meaning my desk would be covered with puke. :)
If you had actual feel you'd be able to coordinate without thinking about it quickly. Simulators are harder to fly well than airplanes, or so they say.
I've been told that minor amounts of slip and skid on the ball don't matter too much for combat flying on this forum, so it is probably not hurting your performance in the game.
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Thank you! This answers a lot of mysteries for me!
That's also why ailerons are more effective in a stall when stalled with flaps out.
Actual best sustained turn speeds need to be flight tested but you generally don't need the actual best speed as long as you're close.
Thanks, FLS. I didn't know this. I'm just going by feel.
The biggest thing I notice about my flying is the lack of coordinated turns when slow.
Just push left foot when you roll left, right foot with right roll, center pedals as soon as you get the bank angle, you generally don't hold the pedal for the turn but you may need a little correction. Make it a habit and don't worry about getting the ball exactly centered.
Keep in mind uncoordinated flight is harder to hit. ;)
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That's also why ailerons are more effective in a stall when stalled with flaps out.
Actual best sustained turn speeds need to be flight tested but you generally don't need the actual best speed as long as you're close.
Just push left foot when you roll left, right foot with right roll, center pedals as soon as you get the bank angle, you generally don't hold the pedal for the turn but you may need a little correction. Make it a habit and don't worry about getting the ball exactly centered.
Keep in mind uncoordinated flight is harder to hit. ;)
In most conventional rotation piston airplanes you lead with left aileron in left turns and lead with right rudder in right turns. That's my experience any way. Obviously it is plane-dependent.....
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Just push left foot when you roll left, right foot with right roll, center pedals as soon as you get the bank angle, you generally don't hold the pedal for the turn but you may need a little correction. Make it a habit and don't worry about getting the ball exactly centered.
Keep in mind uncoordinated flight is harder to hit. ;)
I tend to do this much better in the 38. It doesn't look like as sloppy. For me, the 51 is tough to get that coordinated flight when I start getting it slow and turn-y. :)
I need that little rudder needle like we had in AW, and then I could see how much input I'm giving it. hehe
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Mir,
You are flying manual trim during ACM?
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Mir,
You are flying manual trim during ACM?
Yes, always.
In regards to the 51, if speed permits, I'll start the fight with Combat Trim, and then turn it off at 300ias or just under.
If I'm slower than 300ias when the fight starts, I'll manually trim the nose down a little until it feels right.
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I was experimenting offline with 1-3 notches of flaps out and nose down trim while BnZing, scissoring, and barrel roll attacking the drones. It gives you smooth nose control for snap shots during maneuvering especially while picking up speed nose down. You just have to remember upon pulling the flaps full up, your nose will be heavy until past 350.
Wonder what happened in the real world when you trimmed for combat and didn't have time to bother with trim again as you popped a notch of flaps for maneuvering?
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I was experimenting offline with 1-3 notches of flaps out and nose down trim while BnZing, scissoring, and barrel roll attacking the drones. It gives you smooth nose control for snap shots during maneuvering especially while picking up speed nose down. You just have to remember upon pulling the flaps full up, your nose will be heavy until past 350.
Wonder what happened in the real world when you trimmed for combat and didn't have time to bother with trim again as you popped a notch of flaps for maneuvering?
Real P-51 pilots had three little knobs right under the hand near the throttle and flaps control. Also, being slightly out of trim isn't the headache in a real plane it is in a simulator controlled with a six inch plastic joystick. I believe Hitech has said something about including combat trim for that very reason.
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Wonder what happened in the real world when you trimmed for combat and didn't have time to bother with trim again as you popped a notch of flaps for maneuvering?
You muscled through it. Adrenaline surely helped.
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The films have been incredibly instructive, Mir. Making better use of the flaps has given me more confidence in this plane. I'm not as worried about slowing down too much as I used to be, and I can hang in a turn fight a lot longer. I'm still trying to get a feel for it but it's coming along a lot better. I also find I can come around a lot faster even in high speed fights, and that appears to be surprising opponents. It's also much easier to stay on a con's six.
If you have any other films that might be instructive I'd appreciate it.
:salute
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I also find I can come around a lot faster even in high speed fights, and that appears to be surprising opponents.
Indeed. I shot a Zeke this morning from cold-side lag (In the belly, IOW) in the Mustang. I think he thought I'd simply fly right on by, but I put out the flaps and bent it around. Surprise can be a weapon that trumps all else...
(http://i.imgur.com/K81no5c.gif)
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The films have been incredibly instructive, Mir. Making better use of the flaps has given me more confidence in this plane. I'm not as worried about slowing down too much as I used to be, and I can hang in a turn fight a lot longer. I'm still trying to get a feel for it but it's coming along a lot better. I also find I can come around a lot faster even in high speed fights, and that appears to be surprising opponents. It's also much easier to stay on a con's six.
If you have any other films that might be instructive I'd appreciate it.
:salute
I'm very happy they're helpful.
I have some more that I'll upload during the week, including one from this past weekend that had a couple of fights in it.
:salute
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One other thing I've found...once you can fly the pony passably well, it's really easy to kill ponies, since a lot of pony drivers don't know what you know.