Post by: Slade on September 21, 2018, 11:20:45 AM
I dont know why one is compelled to get in an 88 to shoot down my P-40. No worries this is not a rage post.
In THIS game I'd like to think anything that keeps a player in a PLANE or at least a GV is the ideal. Minimally I'd like the accuracy of 88's to be taken WAY WAY down to promote people getting in vehicles.
Can I please get some +1's on this wish fellas!?
Thanks,
Slade :salute
Post by: Vraciu on September 21, 2018, 01:07:29 PM
:salute
Post by: ONTOS on September 21, 2018, 01:15:16 PM
Post by: Ramesis on September 21, 2018, 03:06:56 PM
:salute
Post by: Vraciu on September 21, 2018, 05:13:25 PM
-1 In all the years we've had the 88's, I have shot down 3 planes. I guess I am a bad shot, however I get in the 88's so I have lots of practice.
You just don't have the right gamey custom sight that allows you to pointy clicky boom.
Post by: The Fugitive on September 21, 2018, 05:20:51 PM
Post by: ONTOS on September 21, 2018, 05:30:21 PM
Post by: Ciaphas on September 21, 2018, 05:38:59 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Vraciu on September 21, 2018, 06:40:16 PM
Where can I get the right gamey custom sight that will allow me to pointy clicky boom ?
I don't know. I'm sure if you do a search you'll find the threads that contain them.
Post by: ccvi on September 22, 2018, 04:25:04 AM
Slow planes need a lot less lead, so a p40 is probably a lot easier to hit than others.
Post by: Vraciu on September 22, 2018, 05:19:23 AM
I rarely get hits with the 88. The amount of lead needed seems to be huuuge. Even if it's possible to add a gunsight to the 88, it would need to cover half the screen at typical fov setting.
Slow planes need a lot less lead, so a p40 is probably a lot easier to hit than others.
People use screen overlays and stuff. I’ve seen weird crap.
There are people who are snipers with the 88. Gamey as heck.
Post by: Slade on September 22, 2018, 11:57:18 AM
Thank you for the responses. All good.
The crux of THIS game is not hitting things with field guns. The reason why I and so many of us pay a monthly fee is ACM.
A vote to tone down 88's is a vote to keep the focus of the game on the reason most of us pay for it in spite of the fact 95% of all the games out there have gone to an initial free to play model.
Thanks for all your input.
Slade :salute
Post by: lyric1 on September 22, 2018, 12:24:08 PM
Gentlemen,
Thank you for the responses. All good.
The crux of THIS game is not hitting things with field guns. The reason why I and so many of us pay a monthly fee is ACM.
A vote to tone down 88's is a vote to keep the focus of the game on the reason most of us pay for it in spite of the fact 95% of all the games out there have gone to an initial free to play model.
Thanks for all your input.
Slade :salute
They are already toned down.
HTC has not dialed them up in game as to what they were like in real life.
Post by: Ramesis on September 22, 2018, 01:46:05 PM
People use screen overlays and stuff. I’ve seen weird crap.
There are people who are snipers with the 88. Gamey as heck.
But very few V... in the early days of AHIII I got reasonably good with 88s... very few IMO
is not gamey :salute
Post by: Vraciu on September 22, 2018, 02:51:19 PM
But very few V... in the early days of AHIII I got reasonably good with 88s... very few IMO
is not gamey :salute
It only takes a couple to grief everyone else.
And yes, it is gamey.
Post by: LilMak on September 22, 2018, 02:54:41 PM
Post by: Vraciu on September 22, 2018, 03:04:33 PM
Even the guys who are good in the 88 miss 98% of the time. So what you get is a guy who spends 30 minutes in a gun and hits next to nothing. Effectively taking a player out of the game who could otherwise be contributing to what I pay for. When the numbers were here, that was no big deal. Now the numbers are lower. I would prefer every player participating in two way combat.
I would love for all of these people to miss 98% of the time. Where do I find that arena? It sure ain't the MA. :noid
Post by: The Fugitive on September 22, 2018, 03:17:21 PM
I would love for all of these people to miss 98% of the time. Where do I find that arena? It sure ain't the MA. :noid
My guess is your spending too much time flying close to enemy bases :noid
Let them get out a bit and the 88s arent as much as a problem :devil
Post by: Vraciu on September 22, 2018, 04:52:30 PM
My guess is your spending too much time flying close to enemy bases :noid
Let them get out a bit and the 88s arent as much as a problem :devil
Your guess is wrong. But thank you for playing The Price is Right.
The reality is that if one wants a fight or to take a base then flying close is relative--and often required. Doesn't stop a guy from potting at you from max range when you are over the ocean nowhere near a base. And since most guys just run to or hide in their ack you can try to fight or just log off. (I'm doing the latter more and more often.)
It's stupid. It's annoying. And it is one of the more frustrating things about this game.
Post by: The Fugitive on September 22, 2018, 09:21:06 PM
Your guess is wrong. But thank you for playing The Price is Right.
The reality is that if one wants a fight or to take a base then flying close is relative--and often required. Doesn't stop a guy from potting at you from max range when you are over the ocean nowhere near a base. And since most guys just run to or hide in their ack you can try to fight or just log off. (I'm doing the latter more and more often.)
It's stupid. It's annoying. And it is one of the more frustrating things about this game.
oh I agree with you. I wish they would set a point where you couldnt man a gun/88 unless there were more than 150 players in the arena. This game is getting more and more boring everytime you play as most players just RUN!!!!!
Post by: Vraciu on September 22, 2018, 09:57:44 PM
oh I agree with you. I wish they would set a point where you couldnt man a gun/88 unless there were more than 150 players in the arena. This game is getting more and more boring everytime you play as most players just RUN!!!!!
Yep. We chatted about that on 200 tonight. :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :salute :cheers:
Post by: JimmyD3 on September 23, 2018, 12:45:36 AM
Post by: Slade on September 23, 2018, 07:26:55 AM
Quote
I would love for all of these people to miss 98% of the time. Where do I find that arena?
BINGO
I think AH would have to respect it it there was an onslaught of people all jumping in 88s to the degree that it made Aces High functionally 88s Low. The facts however seem to be that the VAST majority of people that play this game are to get maximum enjoyment from ACM.
88's take people out of vehicles.
Another idea is maybe to allow 88's (or a person) to only get 1 88 kill per hour or something like that.
Thanks,
Slade :salute
Post by: Vraciu on September 23, 2018, 09:49:00 AM
You know you guys can go create an arena just for fights, I'm sure if you all get together it would be a least 7 or 8 of you. :headscratch:
I’m sure if you all get out of your no-risk 88s the fights in MA would run along just fine on their own merit. :headscratch:
Post by: The Fugitive on September 23, 2018, 11:27:02 AM
You know you guys can go create an arena just for fights, I'm sure if you all get together it would be a least 7 or 8 of you. :headscratch:
As other have said, I like to fight with a purpose. To add my team in capturing/defending bases or to win the war. Its the fun of being "part of the team" or "squad". Im not a lone shark.... or any kind of a shark.... so learning another style/type of fighting (dueling) doesnt interest me.
I just want to see the players in the MA FIGHT for what they are going after so I can fight with/against them. That is what I thought this game was all about.
Post by: JimmyD3 on September 23, 2018, 01:36:21 PM
As other have said, I like to fight with a purpose. To add my team in capturing/defending bases or to win the war. Its the fun of being "part of the team" or "squad". Im not a lone shark.... or any kind of a shark.... so learning another style/type of fighting (dueling) doesnt interest me.
I just want to see the players in the MA FIGHT for what they are going after so I can fight with/against them. That is what I thought this game was all about.
I agree with you for the most part, I also fight with a purpose. As you, its to aid my team in winning the war. If that means upping a fighter, or a bomber so be it. If it means upping a gv, that's okay also, if it means getting in a man gun to defend, that is also okay. The purpose is to fight for the team. (BTW running supps is also okay)
Post by: 1stpar3 on September 23, 2018, 05:36:42 PM
Post by: ONTOS on September 23, 2018, 07:26:54 PM
Post by: The Fugitive on September 23, 2018, 08:00:22 PM
Post by: Vraciu on September 23, 2018, 08:23:41 PM
Killed more than a dozen last night but it doesnt show up any where on a "score sheet" or such. Guns have no risk. If they dont count as "kills" toward rank/score then is shouldn't hurt my kill/death, kill/sorty.... etc, either. Same goes for 88s, or running supplies. It should hurt you more getting killed doing something OTHER than fighting.
This.
They are a no-risk proposition for the gunner.
Post by: ccvi on September 24, 2018, 03:18:00 AM
Would you feel better if attack-score had a guns-killed counter?
Post by: RODBUSTR on September 24, 2018, 04:21:25 AM
Post by: icepac on September 24, 2018, 10:31:02 AM
A solitary person at a front line base gives warning that he saw a sizable dar bar "bloom" and then vanish pretty quickly at the enemy base nearest to the field.
You look at the map and it's just one friendly in a fighter and a now flashing base but no dar bar.
He warns again that a horde is coming.
Nobody responds.
Now there is sizable dar bar in the sector of the nearest enemy base that moves to the base where the attack warning mentions.
Nobody responds.
Suddenly, on the edge of the dar ring are 4 bomber groups coming in. The raging clue is now showing.
The enemy bombers slowly ooze toward the friendly base where the warning went up 10 minutes ago.
Nobody responds.
Red fighter dots start to show on the edge of the dar ring that grow in number quickly.........8 enemy fighters are inbound!!
Nobody responds while some are bemoaning being "unable to find a fight" on channel 200.
The enemy fighters arrive at the friendly base where the warning went up 15 minutes earlier.
15 friendly wirbelwinds spawn.
Enemy establishes cap.
Friendlies now try to take off, get vulched a few times and say "this is BS" and either man guns or start M3s from another field.
The base is overwhelmed but the defenders aren't smart enough to up from the next base out and go to the source of the enemy planes so they can come in with an advantage while enemy climbs. No, they try to spawn from the base under attack and climb when there is a lull.......... just in time for the next wave of enemy fighters to come in with a 13k altitude advantage.
Then they say "I'm logging.....this horde stuff is BS".
This is warfare 101 and most are ignoring the things taught during the first hour of the first day of class.
Some might be able to coax a TA152 over the top of a loop under control at 38mph but that same person will not employ things that a 5th grader learned during his first game of capture the flag.
You have to laugh when 7 guys show up to a field take ("the cavalry is coming".....with great fanfare on country channel) either with no bombs or they lay all the ord on the group of enemy wirb defenders. Meanwhile the town only needed a single ack or building downed to meet the minimum requirements of a field take.
Don't hate the game when it's the playa who is going backwards in terms of effectiveness.
Post by: Vraciu on September 24, 2018, 10:39:57 AM
Pretty much the only way to get clobbered by an 88 while playing a fighter is to fly right down the barrel,
It doesn’t have to kill you to grief the fight, but you’re wrong any way.
Quote
The dual 5' 38s on the ships are a different story here. For a while I kept a loose count of rounds fire at my fighters and it takes close to1000 rounds to even ding one. But to be accurate Luftwaffe gunner averaged about 8000 round per plane shot down and AH"s rate is about 1/8 that. As a defense don't egress in a straight line. Make your turn faster than the gun can swing, and change alt every few seconds. Have a blast.
The resident expert on everything (except the SHIFT key) has spoken. :old:
HAVEABLAST
Post by: Wiley on September 24, 2018, 10:51:43 AM
Many people get in the guns under situations because they did not react to a warning that a horde attack is coming to a field.
A solitary person at a front line base gives warning that he saw a sizable dar bar "bloom" and then vanish pretty quickly at the enemy base nearest to the field.
You look at the map and it's just one friendly in a fighter and a now flashing base but no dar bar.
He warns again that a horde is coming.
Nobody responds.
...
That about catches it. For some reason, for the vast majority of players if it's not an airplane showing on their map, it is invisible and nothing people say on channel will make them aware of it. I don't get it. It could be wishful thinking, but it seems to me the new dar is helping get a response when the single guy gets in icon range of the horde.
Wiley.
Post by: Ramesis on September 24, 2018, 02:16:07 PM
You know you guys can go create an arena just for fights, I'm sure if you all get together it would be a least 7 or 8 of you. :headscratch:
I've said this before... there was a dueling arena and ostensibly it was set up those who wished to ONLY dogfight...
I'm guessing it was not good enough for ya'll
:salute
Post by: Vraciu on September 24, 2018, 03:25:17 PM
I've said this before... there was a dueling arena and ostensibly it was set up those who wished to ONLY dogfight...
I'm guessing it was not good enough for ya'll
:salute
I have a great idea. Let’s ban dogfighting from the Melee Arena. /sarcasticblue
Post by: Ramesis on September 25, 2018, 03:14:37 PM
I have a great idea. Let’s ban dogfighting from the Melee Arena. /sarcasticblue
I have a better idea... bring back the DA and that way those who squeak
and moan will have an arena they can't squeak about
:salute
Post by: The Fugitive on September 25, 2018, 04:31:53 PM
I have a better idea... bring back the DA and that way those who squeak
and moan will have an arena they can't squeak about
:salute
I dont want to fight in the DA in ANY form.
I want to fight against other players who are trying to take my teams bases, or against other teams as my team tries to take their bases. Fighting A to A or A to G or G to G is all well and good, they are all fun. But with the low numbers it is getting harder and harder to find these fights. When a good percentage of players jump into guns, 88s, or M3s to run supplies it removes a lot of FIGHTING.
You want to bomb my strats, dont fly off the map, dont fly at 30k feet, dont bail just before I get into icon range, FIGHT ME!
You want to save your base from attack, dont hide in a gun or 88, dont run supplies at the first hint of a bomber on dar, FIGHT ME!
You want to take one of my teams bases, dont NOE it, Dont dive bomb with hvy bombers, dont horde it, FIGHT ME!
I think thats all most of us want here. Play the game any way you want but FIGHT for it.
Post by: Zener on September 25, 2018, 05:15:51 PM
Post by: Devil 505 on September 25, 2018, 05:24:25 PM
I dont want to fight in the DA in ANY form.
I want to fight against other players who are trying to take my teams bases, or against other teams as my team tries to take their bases. Fighting A to A or A to G or G to G is all well and good, they are all fun. But with the low numbers it is getting harder and harder to find these fights. When a good percentage of players jump into guns, 88s, or M3s to run supplies it removes a lot of FIGHTING.
You want to bomb my strats, dont fly off the map, dont fly at 30k feet, dont bail just before I get into icon range, FIGHT ME!
You want to save your base from attack, dont hide in a gun or 88, dont run supplies at the first hint of a bomber on dar, FIGHT ME!
You want to take one of my teams bases, dont NOE it, Dont dive bomb with hvy bombers, dont horde it, FIGHT ME!
I think thats all most of us want here. Play the game any way you want but FIGHT for it.
Fuji for President.
Post by: The Fugitive on September 25, 2018, 05:25:10 PM
All this proposed change just because a couple guns can't be taken out with cannon fire? People don't have a problem killing radars, killing ammo bunkers, but heaven forbid they make one straight pass and knock out 2 88s. :rofl
Its not that it hard to take them out, just that players are hiding in them, jumping from gun to gun as they are destroied. Then when they are out of guns and 88s they say "Well Im not going toup there and get vulched, and it is most likely going to be capture before I can grab alt from the next base over" so they go some place else. Ends up being no fights generated!
Post by: Vraciu on September 25, 2018, 05:43:10 PM
I dont want to fight in the DA in ANY form.
I want to fight against other players who are trying to take my teams bases, or against other teams as my team tries to take their bases. Fighting A to A or A to G or G to G is all well and good, they are all fun. But with the low numbers it is getting harder and harder to find these fights. When a good percentage of players jump into guns, 88s, or M3s to run supplies it removes a lot of FIGHTING.
You want to bomb my strats, dont fly off the map, dont fly at 30k feet, dont bail just before I get into icon range, FIGHT ME!
You want to save your base from attack, dont hide in a gun or 88, dont run supplies at the first hint of a bomber on dar, FIGHT ME!
You want to take one of my teams bases, dont NOE it, Dont dive bomb with hvy bombers, dont horde it, FIGHT ME!
I think thats all most of us want here. Play the game any way you want but FIGHT for it.
This.
Post by: Vraciu on September 25, 2018, 05:44:15 PM
All this proposed change just because a couple guns can't be taken out with cannon fire? People don't have a problem killing radars, killing ammo bunkers, but heaven forbid they make one straight pass and knock out 2 88s. :rofl
Obviously a man of limited experience. It is far more nuanced than this.
Post by: ccvi on September 25, 2018, 05:46:22 PM
For fights to be tied in to the war field capture would need to be slowed down. For example, by adding a criterion for air superiority for x amount of time at the area of the town, with a sufficiently large x. Maybe not even necessarily air superiority, just any kind of numerical advantage / minimum alive time of individual players or similar.
Post by: pembquist on September 25, 2018, 07:04:33 PM
Post by: Vraciu on September 25, 2018, 07:09:15 PM
88 and the other man guns are fine or awful depending upon context. When a base is being over run and there are 10 vulchers, fine. When one plane plinks at the base ack to try to stir something up and all he gets is manned ack/88 blech! When one plane is fighting 2 at a hostile base and the 88 joins in, blech! its Blech Blech Blech till some line is crossed and then it is all fine. The problem is then guns are usually killed when it would be fine and who wants to bother when it is Blech?
Well said.
88s should also go down longer than a measly 15 minutes. Blech!
Post by: JimmyD3 on September 25, 2018, 07:39:58 PM
Obviously a man of limited experience. It is far more nuanced than this.
:rofl :rofl Come on V, with your gunnery skills taking out the 88's should be a piece of cake.
Post by: Vraciu on September 25, 2018, 07:43:39 PM
:rofl :rofl Come on V, with your gunnery skills taking out the 88's should be a piece of cake.
When I want to, yes. But I often get oiled for my trouble and by the time I get back the stupid thing is almost up again.
Post by: Oldman731 on September 25, 2018, 07:56:17 PM
Fights and winning the war don't mix nicely.
Valid point. It's been an issue since the beginning of AH.
On the plus side, people from both schools are still here, having fun.
- oldman
Post by: Vraciu on September 25, 2018, 08:28:18 PM
Valid point. It's been an issue since the beginning of AH.
On the plus side, people from both schools are still here, having fun.
- oldman
Sounds like the dynamics need a tweak so that fights are part of winning the war.
Post by: ccvi on September 26, 2018, 03:21:17 AM
88 and the other man guns are fine or awful depending upon context. When a base is being over run and there are 10 vulchers, fine. When one plane plinks at the base ack to try to stir something up and all he gets is manned ack/88 blech! When one plane is fighting 2 at a hostile base and the 88 joins in, blech! its Blech Blech Blech till some line is crossed and then it is all fine. The problem is then guns are usually killed when it would be fine and who wants to bother when it is Blech?
88s are neither an issue when in a fight (exception a fight that consists of staying high and flying in a straight line) nor when deacking. The maneuvering typical for these activities makes hits by the 88 very unlikely. 88s are a real threat only to something that moves in a straight line.
Post by: bozon on September 26, 2018, 09:04:03 AM
They are already toned down.In real life that was not a single 88 gun, but a whole network of them instead. Given the amount of shooting and the number of planes they were shooting at, the chances to kill something with it were not that high - they just kept “rolling the dice” again and again until they got lucky.
HTC has not dialed them up in game as to what they were like in real life.
But that is besides the point because AH is a game - we want to pick and choose the better parts if real life to be implemented in the game, and leave the boring or horrific parts of life out of it.
88s in AH enjoy a perfect range finder that they did not have in real life. The perfect range on the icon is what allows the game 88s to keep adjusting the explosion distance with high accuracy. You rarely get hit directly by the 88 unless you are diving on it. Kills usually happen by a near-miss explosion. Mess with their range finder and on maneuvering targets most shell will pass by and explode past the plane, or won’t even reach it. Wirbs by the way enjoy this too since perfect range give a good indication of required lead.
All HTC need to do is to give GVs and manned guns the same level of range details that planes get: 200 yards steps up to 1000, then 0.5k steps, then 1k steps.
Post by: Lusche on September 26, 2018, 09:49:36 AM
Post by: icepac on September 26, 2018, 10:05:48 AM
Do they account for the arc?
Are the increments displayed within the size of the ack explosion?
Post by: 1stpar3 on September 26, 2018, 03:04:58 PM
Post by: DmonSlyr on September 26, 2018, 03:22:28 PM
Ok, make all ACK on bases automatic...turn Air Strips into small Task Groups (with equivalent AA capabilities). Make the guns capable of taking out potential Vehicles camping runways. As of now, gun installations can NOT hit vehicles that roll right up to bases. I can de-ack a town or small airbase with an M3. Dont believe it? Sit on a field AFTER CAPTURE and see how many guns you can kill...its most if not all(before you get killed in Wirb). The closer you get to a GUN, the safer you are. The positions are elevated and cant traverse low enough to kill even a Jeep, just drive right up and 3 .50s its dead. A change in AUTO ack, IMO would fix the GUN FIRST defense that players may feel required to provide themselves :uhoh
I agree with you here for the most part.
Manned acks on ships only.
People who lose a 15-30 min sortie to a manned ack pisses people off more than anything.
Manned acks take no risk. Zero. Nada.
They don't protect from vulchers.
You can't "fight" against a manned ack.
If you Jabo a manned ack, they will more than likely connect, thus ending your sortie.
They aren't fun to fight against.
It's lazy gameplay.
Who would quit because they couldn't up in a manned ack compared to who would quit after getting their sorties ruined time after time by manned ack every time they jabo a field?
Players should not have the advantage of being able to ruin sorties from a field ack unless it's from a a shipor CV.
Post by: pembquist on September 26, 2018, 07:47:50 PM
Post by: icepac on September 26, 2018, 08:06:25 PM
Post by: Vraciu on September 26, 2018, 08:09:26 PM
I wonder, is it more irritating to die from manned ack or auto ack?
Is it more annoying to die from being run over by a bus or by an automated robot car?
Post by: pembquist on September 27, 2018, 10:06:25 AM
Post by: Vinkman on October 01, 2018, 09:59:25 AM
Team,
I dont know why one is compelled to get in an 88 to shoot down my P-40. No worries this is not a rage post.
In THIS game I'd like to think anything that keeps a player in a PLANE or at least a GV is the ideal. Minimally I'd like the accuracy of 88's to be taken WAY WAY down to promote people getting in vehicles.
Can I please get some +1's on this wish fellas!?
Thanks,
Slade :salute
-1
Killing a fighter in a 88 is the hardest thing to go in game. They are the only defense against bombers that pop dar because you can't get a fighter to altitude in time to stop the drop. They are slow moving, and require the fuse distance to be set very accurately. As a result, they aren't even an effect defense. you can dive in and kill one before it can turn to shoot you. That how slow they move. The 5" on a CV are 10X more effective due to fire rate and proximity fuses.
Post by: caldera on October 01, 2018, 11:03:14 AM
-1
Killing a fighter in a 88 is the hardest thing to go in game. They are the only defense against bombers that pop dar because you can't get a fighter to altitude in time to stop the drop. They are slow moving, and require the fuse distance to be set very accurately. As a result, they aren't even an effect defense. you can dive in and kill one before it can turn to shoot you. That how slow they move. The 5" on a CV are 10X more effective due to fire rate and proximity fuses.
Have to call "shenanigans" on that one.
Post by: Lusche on October 01, 2018, 11:30:16 AM
Have to call "shenanigans" on that one.
He's still right kinda, though :)
Post by: Vraciu on October 01, 2018, 11:56:57 AM
Have to call "shenanigans" on that one.
+1
Post by: Vinkman on October 01, 2018, 02:03:43 PM
Have to call "shenanigans" on that one.
You can call Shenanigans but you have to list something that's harder to prove your point. Otherwise...SHENANIGANS!
Post by: Vraciu on October 01, 2018, 02:09:16 PM
You can call Shenanigans but you have to list something that's harder to prove your point. Otherwise...SHENANIGANS!
That’s not how it works as you’ve proven NOTHING. All you’ve done is assert a falsehood.
Post by: Vinkman on October 01, 2018, 02:12:52 PM
That’s not how it works as you’ve proven NOTHING. All you’ve done is assert a falsehood.
You clearly don't know how it works. :salute
Post by: Vraciu on October 01, 2018, 02:14:28 PM
You clearly don't know how it works. :salute
Pot, meet kettle.
Your assertion is conjecture. At best...at BEST...it is anecdotal.
Post by: Vinkman on October 01, 2018, 02:24:47 PM
Pot, meet kettle.
Your assertion is conjecture. At best...at BEST...it is anecdotal.
you're on the wrong point. Caldera claims as a counter point that it isn't one of the hardest things to do in game. This is about effective discussion. To make his point effectively he should:
1) propose things that are harder
2) demonstrate how easy it is to kill fighters in an 88.
Unlike you, I'll accept conjecture, and anecdotal assertions because it's just a fun discussion. :salute
but to call SHENANIGANS and not explain yourself is to not understand the shenanigans protocol. :salute
Post by: Vraciu on October 01, 2018, 02:45:18 PM
I call Shennanigans on you, too. ☘️ :devil
Post by: Zener on October 02, 2018, 10:04:32 AM
Sometimes I think people have unrealistic expectations with their ideas of what a "fight" is. If they set the conditions up to be nearly unbeatable, they shouldn't complain when no one wants to spend time being their bullet sponge. I'd suggest backing off a bit, or spreading the planes out more if no one is upping. There's no need to have 9 planes over a field waiting for one guy to take off, then not even allowing him to get to takeoff speed before drilling him - unless the goal is total suppression of the field and if that's the case, no uppers = good news.
If it's only one or two planes, it depends on the planes and what they're doing. Too many times I've seen someone in a 190D come whistling in with a lot of smash looking to stir something up and do nothing but climb to the point of stall, rinse, and repeat. Soon as I can get enough alt to actually have a fight, they wep the heck out of there. So if I see a 190D doing that, I don't waste my time. Let him shoot up the fuel tanks or whatever, odds are he'll only fight as long as he has a major advantage and will run away fast if they lose it.
I know some don't do that... we've had some good fights, some I lose, some I don't, but too many do that runaway thing after enticing me to up and fight. So for me, depends on the plane and what's going on.
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 02, 2018, 12:56:12 PM
Whenever I see a situation where players just won't up a fighter it's because they can't even get to the point of gear up before a fast mover is coming in behind them and a turn fighter is swooping in from one side. If the goal is to set a virtually unbeatable cap over a field, where there's a giant wagon wheel of aircraft 2-6K above, then I wouldn't up there either, I'd launch from another field.
Sometimes I think people have unrealistic expectations with their ideas of what a "fight" is. If they set the conditions up to be nearly unbeatable, they shouldn't complain when no one wants to spend time being their bullet sponge. I'd suggest backing off a bit, or spreading the planes out more if no one is upping. There's no need to have 9 planes over a field waiting for one guy to take off, then not even allowing him to get to takeoff speed before drilling him - unless the goal is total suppression of the field and if that's the case, no uppers = good news.
If it's only one or two planes, it depends on the planes and what they're doing. Too many times I've seen someone in a 190D come whistling in with a lot of smash looking to stir something up and do nothing but climb to the point of stall, rinse, and repeat. Soon as I can get enough alt to actually have a fight, they wep the heck out of there. So if I see a 190D doing that, I don't waste my time. Let him shoot up the fuel tanks or whatever, odds are he'll only fight as long as he has a major advantage and will run away fast if they lose it.
I know some don't do that... we've had some good fights, some I lose, some I don't, but too many do that runaway thing after enticing me to up and fight. So for me, depends on the plane and what's going on.
That's why I don't like 190Ds and wish there were less of them. It's a plane that creates stale gameplay for the most part.
Your option of rolling from a back base is key. Too many people just don't get it.
People in this game have no mercy. They will gang you 8 on 1. They don't care. They will vulch cap all day long. An 88 gun isn't going to stop it. Manned acks outside of a CV don't do anything but piss people off and take competition out of the game. Rolling from a back field gives you a much better advantage to destroy the vulch cap. I do it on the regular and get a lot more kills that way.
The MA isn't about being fair, you are either Hunter or the hunted, it just depends on how you use your advantages in the heat of the moment.
Post by: bozon on October 02, 2018, 03:19:10 PM
...8 vs 1 is one of the great challenges of AH!
People in this game have no mercy. They will gang you 8 on 1. They don't care. They will vulch cap all day long.
...
Beating 7 other pilots to the 1 kill is no small feat :joystick:
Post by: lunaticfringe on October 04, 2018, 10:02:32 AM
so -1
signed, you're friend Lunatic :D
Post by: LilMak on October 04, 2018, 04:09:22 PM
here we go again-whine, cry, gripe, . the 88's in this game are manned as they were in WWII except the Strats-- The 88 is only as good as it's gunner. since this flight sim is Mimicking WWII, there should be 88's, they were manned 88's in WWII and so they are here, and should be. a lot of planes carry rockets use them to kill the base guns simple as they done in WWII should be done in here--get over it-they are not going anywhere.So much I disagree with in this statement.
so -1
signed, you're friend Lunatic :D
Signed, LilMak
Post by: JimmyD3 on October 04, 2018, 08:29:19 PM
So much I disagree with in this statement.Well there is a big surprise. :devil
Signed, LilMak
Post by: Slade on October 05, 2018, 03:04:22 PM
Quote
[88] you can dive in and kill one before it can turn to shoot you. That how slow they move.
Good point and good intel. As a guy that would rather cut my wrist than jump in a field gun when planes available, I respect that the 88's are modeled as such. :salute
BTW, when 88's "pop" me out of the sky I am usually in a fighter. Also, most of the time it seems like a rage action after I kill a plane and not cuz its 8 v 1 odds. LOL usually 1 v 1 or very close to that.
You guys brought up another good point. It might be a cool compromise to have them effectively only go after bombers. Was that not their prime objective in German city defenses? I mean a Tiger tank, and that slow turret, was not used to shoot down geese but I'm sure it could (if the guy in the Tiger did not have a day job and worked on it to the point of perfection). Point = should be RARE occurrence. That 88's target and kill fighters with this level of frequency is the issue.
Thanks for all your posts.
Post by: icepac on October 05, 2018, 04:16:19 PM
Post by: JimmyD3 on October 06, 2018, 10:11:52 AM
Post by: Slade on October 20, 2018, 07:19:52 AM
I get it. Some guys have gotten really good at gaming that thing. My point is, can we make it more conducive for people to have to jump into planes than do the 88 thing?
I dont think that is too much to ask.
Post by: Zimme83 on October 20, 2018, 08:28:09 AM
For a defensive weapon it amazes me how quickly they pop me out of the sky!
I get it. Some guys have gotten really good at gaming that thing. My point is, can we make it more conducive for people to have to jump into planes than do the 88 thing?
I dont think that is too much to ask.
Jumping into a plane, climb up to you at 10 k and accelerate to have the same E as you takes ~5 mins, and by then you are no longer there. So its simpler to just pop you out of the sky w a 88.
But you shouldn't be shot down by an 88. In a bomber maybe but not in a fighter. it takes the round 10 seconds to fly up to you so all you have to do is to change your heading and altitude and the 88 gunner have no chance to hit you, other than by luck.. Do not fly straight and level and you should be fine.
Post by: popeye on October 20, 2018, 09:54:28 AM
Post by: LilMak on October 20, 2018, 01:17:14 PM
For all you anti-88 guys, the 88's are defensive weapons just like the 37mm and the auto ack. :rolleyes:It’s not that I’m against the 88. I feel too many players spend too much time in them instead of other available tools. I pay a subscription to engage other players in combat. With the numbers dwindling, people living in 88s is reducing the number of players participating in combat. The fundamental problem is range. It’s range is so far that it makes it a grief weapon.
When I show up by myself at an untouched enemy base, the default is for some guy to miss me endlessly in an 88. Eventually I get bored and fly away. So there was a player there who basically became puffy ack because they didn’t want to fight. This is not what I pay for. When there were 600 people online it wasn’t a big deal. Now two or three people in guns represents a significant percentage of the players on a team.
There’s a simple litmus test (pay attention HT)...
“If everyone was doing this right now would this game be any fun?”
The answer to that question in the case of 88 gunners is unequivocally “No.” If every player was sitting in an 88 gun, there would be no game. If the answer to that question is ever “No” it shouldn’t be added to an open word type game because it gives players the opportunity to participate without getting involved.
Post by: hgtonyvi on October 20, 2018, 01:40:04 PM
Post by: lunaticfringe on October 20, 2018, 05:54:33 PM
you can use rockets to take out the guns..
Vraciu-you fly ponie's they can carry rockets USE THEM.
Lilmak-you fly P-47's they can carry 8-10 rockets USE THEM.
all kinds of Planes in this game can carry rockets USE THEM.
or is it you just want to have something to cry about? <--which is just sad--(.
Maybe if HiTech or Skuzzy would come in here and post an answer or make a statement.
Post by: The Fugitive on October 20, 2018, 06:41:49 PM
you all crybabies need to shut the hell up and quit you're crying about the 88's. they were parts of and used in WWII they are apart of this game and will be used in this game..
you can use rockets to take out the guns..
Vraciu-you fly ponie's they can carry rockets USE THEM.
Lilmak-you fly P-47's they can carry 8-10 rockets USE THEM.
all kinds of Planes in this game can carry rockets USE THEM.
or is it you just want to have something to cry about? <--which is just sad--(.
Maybe if HiTech or Skuzzy would come in here and post an answer or make a statement.
WOW! I'll say this slowly.
Its not about how deadly or dangerous the 88s are it is about players HIDING in 88/guns! Most would rather see them in PLANES to have fights against.
Post by: ccvi on October 20, 2018, 06:50:56 PM
Post by: The Fugitive on October 20, 2018, 07:23:35 PM
"Hiding" in guns? The game comes with built-in maps of where they are. How can that be hiding?
They dont die, there is no down side to HIDING in guns. The point still is they are not FLYING and FIGHTING.
Post by: LilMak on October 20, 2018, 09:46:17 PM
All kinds of crap was in WWII. That doesn’t mean it belongs in a game. Let me remind you. We ARE playing a game.
A perfect example is friendly fire. That was a thing in war. But it doesn’t belong in the MA because it would ruin the GAME.
Post by: caldera on October 21, 2018, 09:19:45 AM
Why not just get a kill on the person that's sitting in the man ack? I think that will make them think twice. :aok :aok
Giving a kill credit on ack guns only encourages more vulching, a behavior that is not exactly an endearing feature of the game.
And killing a field gun is easier than killing a goon. One cannon shell 50 yards from it and poof.
However, gun kills should not get posted on the text buffer.
They can be a result of skillful marksmanship, but hardly deserve the acclaim of someone who put themselves in harm's way.
That is my take, as a former 37mm sniper.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 21, 2018, 09:54:18 AM
Giving a kill credit on ack guns only encourages more vulching, a behavior that is not exactly an endearing feature of the game.
And killing a field gun is easier than killing a goon. One cannon shell 50 yards from it and poof.
However, gun kills should not get posted on the text buffer.
They can be a result of skillful marksmanship, but hardly deserve the acclaim of someone who put themselves in harm's way.
That is my take, as a former 37mm sniper.
If a player is flying, driving, sailing or manning a gun and they die, the person who kills them should get credit for their death.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: lunaticfringe on October 21, 2018, 01:04:01 PM
It’s not that I’m against the 88. I feel too many players spend too much time in them instead of other available tools. I pay a subscription to engage other players in combat. With the numbers dwindling, people living in 88s is reducing the number of players participating in combat. The fundamental problem is range. It’s range is so far that it makes it a grief weapon.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When I show up by myself at an untouched enemy base, the default is for some guy to miss me endlessly in an 88. Eventually I get bored and fly away. So there was a player there who basically became puffy ack because they didn’t want to fight. This is not what I pay for. When there were 600 people online it wasn’t a big deal. Now two or three people in guns represents a significant percentage of the players on a team.
There’s a simple litmus test (pay attention HT)...
“If everyone was doing this right now would this game be any fun?”
The answer to that question in the case of 88 gunners is unequivocally “No.” If every player was sitting in an 88 gun, there would be no game. If the answer to that question is ever “No” it shouldn’t be added to an open word type game because it gives players the opportunity to participate without getting involved.
yeah well they pay a subscription to play the way they want--you are trying to make people play you're way.
Post by: lunaticfringe on October 21, 2018, 01:15:25 PM
Top definition
vulcher
A person who makes lame kills in an online game, usually when the opponent is low on health of fighting another player.
you're too lazy to arm with rockets-you are too lazy to take out the guns-and you people are always crying you can't find a fight, if you quit vulcheing and picking the runway you might get a fight, but you don't and won't let people up because you want easy kills. that's the bottom line, I have seen it and heard it for years.
you say you pay to shoot people down--well they pay too shoot people down their way.
Post by: The Fugitive on October 21, 2018, 03:07:15 PM
I have played this game for 10 years--what it all boils down to is you all want the 88's and the 37mm's to be gone, so you can vulch the runway.
Top definition
vulcher
A person who makes lame kills in an online game, usually when the opponent is low on health of fighting another player.
you're too lazy to arm with rockets-you are too lazy to take out the guns-and you people are always crying you can't find a fight, if you quit vulcheing and picking the runway you might get a fight, but you don't and won't let people up because you want easy kills. that's the bottom line, I have seen it and heard it for years.
you say you pay to shoot people down--well they pay too shoot people down their way.
AGAIN, taking out guns is easy, even with just 50s. The point is, it is more fun to fight other players IN PLANES. Get out of the guns and into a PLANE!
Post by: ccvi on October 21, 2018, 06:17:25 PM
And killing a field gun is easier than killing a goon. One cannon shell 50 yards from it and poof.
Easier than a goon probably yes, but 50 yards? That might barely be close enough for 75mm HE.
Post by: icepac on October 21, 2018, 09:58:19 PM
I've killed many of both with the pistol.
I especially like when only one manned ack is up and I walk up so they can see me before I pistol whip the gun position.
Post by: LilMak on October 21, 2018, 11:07:42 PM
I have played this game for 10 years--what it all boils down to is you all want the 88's and the 37mm's to be gone, so you can vulch the runway.I haven’t vulched another player in probably 8 years. Try again.
Top definition
vulcher
A person who makes lame kills in an online game, usually when the opponent is low on health of fighting another player.
you're too lazy to arm with rockets-you are too lazy to take out the guns-and you people are always crying you can't find a fight, if you quit vulcheing and picking the runway you might get a fight, but you don't and won't let people up because you want easy kills. that's the bottom line, I have seen it and heard it for years.
you say you pay to shoot people down--well they pay too shoot people down their way.
Post by: Vinkman on October 22, 2018, 07:41:34 AM
I have played this game for 10 years--what it all boils down to is you all want the 88's and the 37mm's to be gone, so you can vulch the runway.
vulcher
A person who makes lame kills in an online game, usually when the opponent is low on health of fighting another player.
you're too lazy to arm with rockets-you are too lazy to take out the guns-and you people are always crying you can't find a fight, if you quit vulcheing and picking the runway you might get a fight, but you don't and won't let people up because you want easy kills. that's the bottom line, I have seen it and heard it for years.
you say you pay to shoot people down--well they pay too shoot people down their way.
You may be assuming too much about the motives of players. Then reacting to your own assumptions instead of reality. Attackers will more often then used to be the case, chase players back to base, or end up fighting close to base because they don't have the time to wait for action to show up at alt in the halfway point between bases. It is at these times when NO ONE IS TRYING TO VULCH that 88 guns which can reach pretty far out are just an annoyance that can interrupt and spoil a good dog fight. That's what the OP was complaining about, not that he can't vulch because of field guns.
I agree it's annoying, but hardly worth complaining about and certainly not a big enough problem that it's worth fixing. Like I said...the 88 is the least effective weapon in the game. On another thought about 88s....like Ship puffy, they are totally ill suited for their intended purpose which was some defense against high flying buff formations. Strangely puffy and the 88s only seem to be able to kill low maneuvering fighters. lol!!
:salute
Post by: ccvi on October 22, 2018, 04:25:34 PM
Attackers will more often then used to be the case, chase players back to base, or end up fighting close to base because they don't have the time to wait for action to show up at alt in the halfway point between bases.
The empty air in between basis is meaningless when GVs spawn right through to the enemy fields in both directions. Fights in the air in the middle of nowhere while GVs tear down both towns/fields don't make any sense whatsoever.
Post by: Vinkman on October 23, 2018, 12:44:34 PM
The empty air in between basis is meaningless when GVs spawn right through to the enemy fields in both directions. Fights in the air in the middle of nowhere while GVs tear down both towns/fields don't make any sense whatsoever.
yes I agree with this analysis. The GV spawning is definitely keeping a good percentage of the action close to the field. :salute
Post by: Wiley on October 23, 2018, 01:26:29 PM
The empty air in between basis is meaningless when GVs spawn right through to the enemy fields in both directions. Fights in the air in the middle of nowhere while GVs tear down both towns/fields don't make any sense whatsoever.
Why not? They're intercepting inbound enemies to break up/neutralize the threat before it gets to the base.
Wiley.
Post by: ccvi on October 23, 2018, 06:23:29 PM
Why not? They're intercepting inbound enemies to break up/neutralize the threat before it gets to the base.
Intercepts don't really work at those distances. Too easy to get through. Also, the field is either lost or the capture failed without timely support for the GVs. A furball in the middle only helps by distracting the enemy, which only works if the enemy doesn't stick to their objectives required to defend/capture. If both sides agree to not care too much about the war.
Post by: JimmyD3 on October 23, 2018, 07:01:47 PM
Post by: LilMak on October 23, 2018, 10:00:10 PM
Just a minor observation, and a reminder to all, shooting in a man gun IS FIGHTING. It may not be to your liking, or it may be an irritation, but by all definitions of the word, it is fighting. :neener:Boxers in a ring are fighters. One guy outside the ring throwing beer bottles is NOT a fighter nor is he a participant in the fight.
If you’re in an 88, you’re just throwing beer bottles.
Post by: Vinkman on October 24, 2018, 09:13:51 AM
Intercepts don't really work at those distances. Too easy to get through. Also, the field is either lost or the capture failed without timely support for the GVs. A furball in the middle only helps by distracting the enemy, which only works if the enemy doesn't stick to their objectives required to defend/capture. If both sides agree to not care too much about the war.
I'm not sure if I agree with this. Mid-point is the minimum for an intercept. I Jug on a bombing run to take out the VH is very hard to stop once he's over the base. Then he's too high, and too fast in a dive to get him before drops. Best to fly and out and get him before he's over 10k. Then even if he dives to the deck and tries to streak in I have 1/2 a sector to chase him down and get him before he can get ords on target. Same with Buffs, you really want to get them out side the dar circle.
The Midpoint is usually between the radars so you can loiter and wait for field porkers. Even at an efficiency fuel setting you can loiter at over 300 Mph. IF you catch sight of a climbing heavy fighter he's probably going 175 MPH. It's easy bounce them.
The previous point was that the uppers are often just headed to the spawn near their base to bomb your team mates that are spawning GVs in. This is what creates a lot action in the field and base ack as you attempt to engage low fighters and A-20. Where you will be shot at by the 88. ;-)
Post by: JimmyD3 on October 24, 2018, 11:47:06 AM
Boxers in a ring are fighters. One guy outside the ring throwing beer bottles is NOT a fighter nor is he a participant in the fight.
If you’re in an 88, you’re just throwing beer bottles.
You are entitled to your opinion Lilmak, not your facts. If someone is shooting at you in 88 or they damage your plane, wound you, or shoot you down, that is in fact fighting. You may not like it, do it or want it, but that has nothing to do with the FACT. :P
Post by: Slade on October 27, 2018, 06:20:56 AM
Quote
You are entitled to your opinion Lilmak, not your facts. ...
Were 88's for air defense in WWII used for point-bank\less-than-1.5k sharp shooting or were they a longer range weapon? What are the facts on that?
EDIT: I am asking cause I could be wrong and want to know the facts. I am not being sarcastic.
Thanks,
Slade :salute
Post by: JimmyD3 on October 27, 2018, 04:40:02 PM
Post by: icepac on October 27, 2018, 08:46:05 PM
Post by: Slade on October 28, 2018, 06:00:15 AM
Quote
but they were also used extensively for anti-tank guns.
Yep and they were great tank killers I understand.
My context though is: Were 88's for air defense in WWII used for point-bank\less-than-1.5k sharp shooting or were they a longer range weapon? What are the facts on that?
Thanks,
Slade :salute
Post by: asterix on October 28, 2018, 10:27:34 AM
Yep and they were great tank killers I understand.
My context though is: Were 88's for air defense in WWII used for point-bank\less-than-1.5k sharp shooting or were they a longer range weapon? What are the facts on that?
Thanks,
Slade :salute
From https://books.google.ee/books?id=GuuOyzdx1UAC&pg=PA53&lpg=PA53&dq=ww2+strafer+hit+by+flak+88&source=bl&ots=xGFfM1E4Hs&sig=flL2SxhwFGM1Y2syjKV5N9I1t1A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjRk6evtqneAhVn-SoKHUvbBXAQ6AEwG3oECAAQAQ#v=onepage&q=ww2%20strafer%20hit%20by%20flak%2088&f=false (https://books.google.ee/books?id=GuuOyzdx1UAC&pg=PA53&lpg=PA53&dq=ww2+strafer+hit+by+flak+88&source=bl&ots=xGFfM1E4Hs&sig=flL2SxhwFGM1Y2syjKV5N9I1t1A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjRk6evtqneAhVn-SoKHUvbBXAQ6AEwG3oECAAQAQ#v=onepage&q=ww2%20strafer%20hit%20by%20flak%2088&f=false) page 59:
Evident on the spot was that low-altitude operations, including strafing, were subject to every air defence weapon in the enemy arsenal- aircraft and AAA from 88mm and even larger, down to machine pistols and handguns- and that anyone who said AAA guns of 88mm size were not threats to low-flying planes was an idiot.
Not my words.
Post by: Ramesis on October 28, 2018, 03:17:32 PM
Boxers in a ring are fighters. One guy outside the ring throwing beer bottles is NOT a fighter nor is he a participant in the fight.BUT Lil, the guy outside the ring will get arrested for throwing those bottles...
If you’re in an 88, you’re just throwing beer bottles.
a gunner is NOT!
:D
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 28, 2018, 03:39:35 PM
Post by: Lusche on October 28, 2018, 06:17:11 PM
If I recall. Manned acks have the most kills of any fighter or tanker in the game. Before Hitech took them off the stats, you could easily see it.
Manned acks haven't been taken off the stats.
Also, there's only one type of "manned gun" in the stats, whereas all kills by planes divide up onto 96 different models.
In tour 222 there were 56.148 air to air kills. "Ship Gun or Field" were credited with 6.693 kills of planes and you can bet that manned 5" kills made up the majority of them, with the 88" only coming in at last place.
Post by: Vinkman on October 29, 2018, 09:45:12 AM
If I recall. Manned acks have the most kills of any fighter or tanker in the game. Before Hitech took them off the stats, you could easily see it. Manned acks should not be allowed at fighter or tank fields. You cannot battle against a manned ack. All acks outside of a CV should be computer. It makes the most sense. Manned acks are a cheap way to ruin sorties when the player should be forced to have to roll an aircraft or tank to defend the base. Manned acks provide no risk. In WW2 the risk was your own life. Not in AH. Lives don't matter. You are better off defending against vulchers in a Wirble than a manned ack. Manned acks are lazy gameplay that do more damage to keeping players logged on rather than if they weren't there at all. People would much rather die to a computer AAA than a manned ack when they are dive bombing a base. If a player in a manned ack blows your wing off right away after flying 15 minutes to Jabo the field. It's not really worth your time is it? At least with AAA you have the ability to drop your bombs and not get picked off with a 30mm on the first dive.
-4
Post by: LilMak on October 29, 2018, 11:52:14 AM
You are entitled to your opinion Lilmak, not your facts. If someone is shooting at you in 88 or they damage your plane, wound you, or shoot you down, that is in fact fighting. You may not like it, do it or want it, but that has nothing to do with the FACT. :PThe definition of a fight implies a conflict between opponents. That’s a fact. 88 taking pot shots does not fit that definition.
My biggest problem is this...I pay real money to have virtual fights (conflict). The player base is shrinking and we can’t spare any more. A player sitting in an 88 for 30 minutes and praying he gets lucky isn’t contributing to the game, or defense, or anything of significance. They’re just making noise. No matter how many times you jump up and down and cry “IT WAZ IN DA WARZ!!!” it changes nothing about the FACT that this is a game and you’re basically not part of it if you’re parked in an 88.
Puffy ack is already modeled. People despise it when it ruins a fight or takes their perks. Don’t need players to add to that.
Post by: eddiek on October 29, 2018, 03:00:07 PM
I'd rather face 88's firing at me, cause I can see the tracer coming up.
It would seem the OP would or should be just as irritated at the 5' fire from the fleets..........those things don't show a tracer unless they are in HE mode, and they don't have to be continually fused by the operator like the 88's do. And they fire in batteries of two guns, doubling the odds of getting you.
Either way, I do man the 88's from time to time, usually when it's too late to up a fighter to intercept buffs, or there is clearly a horde inbound and all you are gonna by upping a fighter is sacrifice yourself to pad someone's score sheet.
Do I fire at fighters around a base I am defending? Sure I do. Usually I limit that to when I see 2 or 3 or 4 fighters ganging up on a friendly. If that makes folks upset, too bad. I don't participate in the activity when I see several friendlies swarming an enemy, so if someone throwing a few flak bursts out there to make the gangers nervous, and maybe even damage one of them, I will do it.
Some folks will say that behavior is normal when you are trying to take a base, any means necessary is acceptable to achieve the goal. But someone lobbing AA shells in their midst is just as acceptable in my eyes.
In the end, it's just a game.
Post by: ccvi on October 29, 2018, 03:17:17 PM
I pay real money to have virtual fights (conflict).
I think you got that the wrong way around. Since a long time the $ no longer really qualifies as real money, and some fights on 200 can be quite real.
Post by: icepac on October 29, 2018, 04:21:39 PM
Maybe it's because I never did fly down their barrel or fly a perfectly straight path as I passed over a base.
Post by: Wiley on October 29, 2018, 04:36:51 PM
I've never once been hit by the 88s.
Maybe it's because I never did fly down their barrel or fly a perfectly straight path as I passed over a base.
The other day I was working near a base and there was some kind of savant in the 88. He'd been coming close to several planes the entire time I was there, and I was coming over the top at one point and he nailed me. I don't generally worry about them as I'm usually maneuvering, but it can happen.
Wiley.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 29, 2018, 05:47:22 PM
This entire game is built off of a risk/reward model. You up your favorite ride or a ride that is tactically necessary for the situation and head over to where it's needed to perform a task.
When you attack a field, there is always a risk of failure. There will always be someone that is better at X than you are and some people are able to maintain god like SA and then there are those that chose to master their preferred platforms or multiple platforms.
You either rise to the challenge and hope the person opposing is not as good as you or you adapt to the situation and flip the script and take away what ever perceived advantage your opponent may have over you.
If I am attacking a base and I see the 88 popping close to friendlies I change my approach and try to counter the 88 by removing comfortable angle that the gunner can use to swat my fly out of the sky.
*edit*
At the very least, if you are in a man gun and you die, the person who towered you should get the kill. I also think that the 88 should be perked.
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Post by: The Fugitive on October 29, 2018, 06:00:13 PM
With the low numbers you have more and more players jumping into gun/88s making it worst because there are now even more players not in the air. Thats the only complaints here.
Basically what they are saying is "Get out of the gun and fight me in a plane!" That is what players are paying for, COMBAT!
Post by: Ciaphas on October 29, 2018, 06:10:45 PM
The only thing it has to with the 88s is that it is NOT A PLANE period.
With the low numbers you have more and more players jumping into gun/88s making it worst because there are now even more players not in the air. Thats the only complaints here.
Basically what they are saying is "Get out of the gun and fight me in a plane!" That is what players are paying for, COMBAT!
I understand that but is it still combat if an 88 is defending a field against an active enemy? The validity is not diminished just because they're using a tool that you don't prefer or feel is unnecessary to the game.
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Post by: Oldman731 on October 29, 2018, 08:33:58 PM
Basically what they are saying is "Get out of the gun and fight me in a plane!" That is what players are paying for, COMBAT!
Does the complaint change if it becomes "Get out of the Wirb and fight me in a plane!"?
We have stationary manned ack, vehicle ack, 5-inch ack, and 88 ack. Why is 88 ack more reprehensible than the others?
- oldman
Post by: The Fugitive on October 29, 2018, 08:48:33 PM
I understand that but is it still combat if an 88 is defending a field against an active enemy? The validity is not diminished just because they're using a tool that you don't prefer or feel is unnecessary to the game.
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It is basically an ineffective tool for 99% of the players, yet so many jump into one as a "first line" of defense. Any one who is just average in this game cam take out all the guns on a field. I think LilMak did a training film where he did it and then circled looking for a fight with plenty of ammo for a few kills. At this point in the game, large maps are bad for the game right now, so are 88s or other manned guns.
Does the complaint change if it becomes "Get out of the Wirb and fight me in a plane!"?
We have stationary manned ack, vehicle ack, 5-inch ack, and 88 ack. Why is 88 ack more reprehensible than the others?
- oldman
For me, no. its an air combat game, we need as many people as we can get IN THE AIR. Years ago those were all great add-ons. Vilkas made a living in a gun, but these days. Whats the point of "flying" if there are n't anyone else flying? Many people only play this game to FIGHT air to air against other real live players. That is disappearing. At this point we are losing a player now and then, but it WILL get to a point when it tips and we start losing players by the dozens.
If turning off the "guns" for a bit now keeps players playing, is that a bad thing?
Post by: Oldman731 on October 29, 2018, 08:52:42 PM
For me, no. its an air combat game, we need as many people as we can get IN THE AIR. Years ago those were all great add-ons. Vilkas made a living in a gun, but these days. Whats the point of "flying" if there are n't anyone else flying? Many people only play this game to FIGHT air to air against other real live players. That is disappearing. At this point we are losing a player now and then, but it WILL get to a point when it tips and we start losing players by the dozens.
If turning off the "guns" for a bit now keeps players playing, is that a bad thing?
I fall back on that pleasant Southern saying, "I don't have a dog in this fight." But I doubt that someone who is inclined to shoot from the ground is going to magically become a fighter pilot if the ack is denied to him. He wasn't interested in air combat the first place.
- oldman
Post by: The Fugitive on October 29, 2018, 09:00:16 PM
I fall back on that pleasant Southern saying, "I don't have a dog in this fight." But I doubt that someone who is inclined to shoot from the ground is going to magically become a fighter pilot if the ack is denied to him. He wasn't interested in air combat the first place.
- oldman
Do you think players are paying $15 a month to sit in a gun? Even Vilkas....a gunner in WWII, FLEW in the game, not just sat in a gun. I highly doubt that "gunning" is the reason a player would join up here.
Post by: Mongoose on October 29, 2018, 09:08:38 PM
You cannot battle against a manned ack.
Yes you can. I've done it. A quick run with a rocket or guns, and the manned ack is down.
Manned acks are a cheap way to ruin sorties when the player should be forced to have to roll an aircraft or tank to defend the base.
Right, because you want to force everyone to play the way you want the game played.
People would much rather die to a computer AAA than a manned ack when they are dive bombing a base.
I wouldn't. I would rather not get shot down at all. But that's part of the game, whether it is computer AAA, or manned ack, or a wirble, or another airplane.
If a player in a manned ack blows your wing off right away after flying 15 minutes to Jabo the field. It's not really worth your time is it?
The same could be said if I get picked off by a 262 zooming in as I am lining up on my target. It's all part of the risk you take when attacking a base. If you don't like manned ack, kill the guns and be done with it. I find killing manned ack much easier than killing a wirble or another plane. It's all part of the game.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 29, 2018, 09:09:44 PM
Do you think players are paying $15 a month to sit in a gun? Even Vilkas....a gunner in WWII, FLEW in the game, not just sat in a gun. I highly doubt that "gunning" is the reason a player would join up here.
I think people pay to play the way they see fit.
perhaps people aren't sitting in the guns as much as you think they are. You might be over a field and player X is in an 88. what happens when you leave the field, does player X stay in guns or does he move to something else?
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Post by: The Fugitive on October 29, 2018, 09:18:46 PM
I think people pay to play the way they see fit.
perhaps people aren't sitting in the guns as much as you think they are. You might be over a field and player X is in an 88. what happens when you leave the field, does player X stay in guns or does he move to something else?
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I was flying this weekend, on flight it was me (p38j) vs a pony, under 5k. He made a single pass and ran 20 miles to his base where he spent the next 5 minutes running through the ack while an 88 was popping rounds around me. I wish film recorded players in guns.... ALL guns. Im sure there was at least one gunner on the field other than the 88. I flew away... pony landed his kill.... Im assuming as there was no "so and so landed X kills in a pony". While heading back toward where the fight....< LOL! started an enemy GV base, i get jumped by a 109 and a 190 I think. The guns are firing and there is at least one wirble out. All for one little old P38. At least HALF the players in the area on the ground in an air combat game.
Thats is one of the biggest problems with this game. Stop taking the easy way out, come fight me! Many players feel this way. If you dont want to FIGHT, save the $15 and go see a movie or two.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 29, 2018, 09:21:55 PM
I was flying this weekend, on flight it was me (p38j) vs a pony, under 5k. He made a single pass and ran 20 miles to his base where he spent the next 5 minutes running through the ack while an 88 was popping rounds around me. I wish film recorded players in guns.... ALL guns. Im sure there was at least one gunner on the field other than the 88. I flew away... pony landed his kill.... Im assuming as there was no "so and so landed X kills in a pony". While heading back toward where the fight....< LOL! started an enemy GV base, i get jumped by a 109 and a 190 I think. The guns are firing and there is at least one wirble out. All for one little old P38. At least HALF the players in the area on the ground in an air combat game.
Thats is one of the biggest problems with this game. Stop taking the easy way out, come fight me! Many players feel this way. If you dont want to FIGHT, save the $15 and go see a movie or two.
so the problem is people hiding in their own AAA. Find another target because the person hiding in the AAA would be a terrible waste of ammo IMHO.
Perhaps looking for a new sector to battle i would be best in your situation.
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Post by: Ack-Ack on October 30, 2018, 12:25:44 AM
Post by: Ciaphas on October 30, 2018, 12:48:39 AM
The problem isn't manned guns, those that think it is doesn't get Oldman's post. Those players in the manned guns are just going to avoid a fight in another way.
Defense is part of the fight, is it not?
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Post by: LilMak on October 30, 2018, 08:05:30 AM
I think having to look for fight in a game where I pay to engage other players is a waste of time and money.
so the problem is people hiding in their own AAA. Find another target because the person hiding in the AAA would be a terrible waste of ammo IMHO.
Perhaps looking for a new sector to battle i would be best in your situation.
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And taking out 88s is boring and not really worth my time. I don’t have the same problem with 37s or wirbs. They have shorter range and players don’t park in them.
“If everyone was doing this, would this game be any fun?” The answer for 88s is “No.”
Post by: Ciaphas on October 30, 2018, 10:24:47 AM
I think having to look for fight in a game where I pay to engage other players is a waste of time and money.
And taking out 88s is boring and not really worth my time. I don’t have the same problem with 37s or wirbs. They have shorter range and players don’t park in them.
“If everyone was doing this, would this game be any fun?” The answer for 88s is “No.”
With the current radar settings, finding a fight is simple. The hunt is part of the game and will always be a part of the game, unless Hitech puts in an "insta action" button that warps everyone within two sectors of each other. which by they way, would render 80% of this game irrelevant.
This game is a different beast depending on the times that you play, it can be 100 players online one hour and 30 players the next hour.
the bottom line is this: if a player enjoys manning 88's, let them man them. I enjoy bombers/heavy fighters and I fly them as much as tactically possible and there isn't a single person (other than Hitech) that will tell me that I can't. I also jump in an occasional 88 and 37's every now and again if the field I am at is getting stomped and we have a few fighters still in the air. in these situations, once the ENM is at 6k icon range, I tower and up a fighter.
Your dislike does not remove the tactical necessity of the any manned AAA.
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Post by: icepac on October 30, 2018, 10:51:30 AM
Me? I up at another base and catch you trying to make it home and then the complaints of "Vulch" ring out.
You can't win against these complainers even if you do shoot them down.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 30, 2018, 11:12:55 AM
The complainers show up at 10k to a base without working radar and they expect people to up right under them.
Me? I up at another base and catch you trying to make it home and then the complaints of "Vulch" ring out.
You can't win against these complainers even if you do shoot them down.
Most of these complaints come from a one dimensional train of thought. This isn't a game based on fighters alone, hence the bombers, GV's, navy vessels, manned AAA, Logistics rides etc... .
It may have started out as a fighter only game but those days are long gone and have been so for a very very long time.
One will always be there to counter the other if used properly. That's just the nature of the beast.
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Post by: DmonSlyr on October 30, 2018, 01:02:27 PM
Yes you can. I've done it. A quick run with a rocket or guns, and the manned ack is down.
Right, because you want to force everyone to play the way you want the game played.
I wouldn't. I would rather not get shot down at all. But that's part of the game, whether it is computer AAA, or manned ack, or a wirble, or another airplane.
The same could be said if I get picked off by a 262 zooming in as I am lining up on my target. It's all part of the risk you take when attacking a base. If you don't like manned ack, kill the guns and be done with it. I find killing manned ack much easier than killing a wirble or another plane. It's all part of the game.
False #1. A Gunner can shoot your wing off before you even make it close enough to rocket or bomb. There's a waste of 10 minutes. What did the Gunner have to give up? 4 seconds of time... You don't even get the kill on the manned ack. What fun is that?
False#2. Typical stupid argument. I want players to be in rides that are risky for them. Gunners aren't risky. Gunners don't have a life to defend. They get the kill. You don't. Who wants to fight a puff of smoke? One player should not have total advantage over the other.
AAA acks pick your plane apart slowely. Manned acks blow your plane apart in one ping. Puff acks can be aimed like snipers. Why why waste the time jaboing for a one ping blow up? At least you have a chance to get a bomb out with computer shooting. It also defends against any aimbot funny business. I see no benefit of manned acks to the game other than for CVs. Players should have to roll rides that provide risk.
False #3. A 262 means the other player has to risk his perks, and his plane, and his sortie, to be able to get the kill. A Gunner does not have to risk any of that. You think players can just come down and kill the guns, (which is also close to vulching) and get the manned guns. If the manned gun gets you before you can deploy rockets, than you've just wasted your time.
The game has become a ground game because they have been pushing for the minority of the gamers in AH, for some reason. Whether it be M3s resupply (very gamey) or a sniper puff ack (very gamey). These have done a great job of pissing off the bulk of the majority of type of gamers moreso than bring value to the overall game. Why reward players who present no risk at all, while negating someone else's long sortie? Whether it be bombers having their field they bombed resupplied instantly, or a Gunner ruin sorties instantly. They just do more to discourage the player base rather than help it.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 30, 2018, 01:41:44 PM
False #1. A Gunner can shoot your wing off before you even make it close enough to rocket or bomb. There's a waste of 10 minutes. What did the Gunner have to give up? 4 seconds of time... You don't even get the kill on the manned ack. What fun is that?
So, it's a waste of time to fly 10 minutes and meet an untimely death before you were able to release ords on your target? Sounds a lot like what buff drivers gripe about... .
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False#2. Typical stupid argument. I want players to be in rides that are risky for them. Gunners aren't risky. Gunners don't have a life to defend. They get the kill. You don't. Who wants to fight a puff of smoke? One player should not have total advantage over the other.
88's should have a perk value and the gunners death should be awarded to the dude who killed him.
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AAA acks pick your plane apart slowely. Manned acks blow your plane apart in one ping. Puff acks can be aimed like snipers. Why why waste the time jaboing for a one ping blow up? At least you have a chance to get a bomb out with computer shooting. It also defends against any aimbot funny business. I see no benefit of manned acks to the game other than for CVs. Players should have to roll rides that provide risk.
That is the effect of having human intelligence controlling the guns and not an algorithm. The algorithm is a spray and pray method whereas the human is able to compensate and judge deflection and lead. So, there's that... .
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False #3. A 262 means the other player has to risk his perks, and his plane, and his sortie, to be able to get the kill. A Gunner does not have to risk any of that. You think players can just come down and kill the guns, (which is also close to vulching) and get the manned guns. If the manned gun gets you before you can deploy rockets, than you've just wasted your time.
See my response for false 1 and 2.
Also, in what reality does a single WWII fighter or bomber have the ability to completely shut down AAA defending a target? Teamwork is the key to overcoming this situation and most complaints in these forums.
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The game has become a ground game because they have been pushing for the minority of the gamers in AH, for some reason. Whether it be M3s resupply (very gamey) or a sniper puff ack (very gamey). These have done a great job of pissing off the bulk of the majority of type of gamers moreso than bring value to the overall game. Why reward players who present no risk at all, while negating someone else's long sortie? Whether it be bombers having their field they bombed resupplied instantly, or a Gunner ruin sorties instantly. They just do more to discourage the player base rather than help it.
This has not become a ground game, stop with the doomsday stuff. This is a very well rounded game. This game as it stands now is designed with teamwork at the forefront. Of course there will always be a lone wolf aspect but it comes with more risk. Sure there are things that could be tweaked a bit more to make it work a bit better for everyone but overall it's not as bad as some of you think it is. If you are constantly finding yourselves getting nuked by 88's I suggest a different ingress on your target and perhaps a different egress as well. Record a few sorties and watch how the gun is moving and learn it's grey and no go angles.
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 30, 2018, 02:48:30 PM
So, it's a waste of time to fly 10 minutes and meet an untimely death before you were able to release ords on your target? Sounds a lot like what buff drivers gripe about... .
88's should have a perk value and the gunners death should be awarded to the dude who killed him.
That is the effect of having human intelligence controlling the guns and not an algorithm. The algorithm is a spray and pray method whereas the human is able to compensate and judge deflection and lead. So, there's that... .
See my response for false 1 and 2.
Also, in what reality does a single WWII fighter or bomber have the ability to completely shut down AAA defending a target? Teamwork is the key to overcoming this situation and most complaints in these forums.
This has not become a ground game, stop with the doomsday stuff. This is a very well rounded game. This game as it stands now is designed with teamwork at the forefront. Of course there will always be a lone wolf aspect but it comes with more risk. Sure there are things that could be tweaked a bit more to make it work a bit better for everyone but overall it's not as bad as some of you think it is. If you are constantly finding yourselves getting nuked by 88's I suggest a different ingress on your target and perhaps a different egress as well. Record a few sorties and watch how the gun is moving and learn it's grey and no go angles.
A bomber cannot shut down the field guns in one pass. Therefore, a field gunner would have the advantage depending on alt of the bombers. Bombers or Jabo pilots should have to face a computer AAA over a manned ack. If a person Jabos or bombs a base and gets blown up before they can even drop, by a manned ack, that is a waste of time. If a person rolls a plane to attack the bombers or Jabos, than that is actual combat, atleast they have a chance to fight.
I agree that 88s and manned guns, along with M3 resupply, should be perked. That's a good idea.
The spray and pray method to computer ack is much better than manned ack. But I don't think puff ack needs to be on fighter or tank bases at all.
Someone said recently to make the towns further away to avoid bases being capped by fighters. This may work better than people's idea that manned guns stop vulching. manned guns simply end people's sortie on the spot. It's a nusance moreso than a control.
Teamwork is great if you can get the people to come and do as they are told. Most of the time that is challenging.
On your last point. There is a reason why the fighters # have declined further relative to other categories. This is the bread and butter for Aces High. Fighters. I know most people don't want to admit that, but it's the truth. Adding sniper puff ack to the fields doesn't help increase the fighter base. Making resupply too easy doesn't increase the fighter or bomber base. Competing with World of Tanks and IL2 + WT is very difficult. IMO, Hitech should stick to the fighter base bread and butter rather than punish them, while making the ground game easier to hurt air pilots. The decrease of the fighter base because of this and other issues is why the #s are lower today.
Post by: Lusche on October 30, 2018, 03:01:26 PM
On your last point. There is a reason why the fighters # have declined further relative to other categories.
They have?
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 30, 2018, 03:06:20 PM
They have?
Other categories would still go down because those people have left and don't participate in those categories anymore, but I believe more devout fighters have left the game than devout tankers. I'm pretty that was in your stats.
Post by: pembquist on October 30, 2018, 03:11:51 PM
Post by: icepac on October 30, 2018, 03:20:43 PM
Most of these complaints come from a one dimensional train of thought. This isn't a game based on fighters alone, hence the bombers, GV's, navy vessels, manned AAA, Logistics rides etc... .
It may have started out as a fighter only game but those days are long gone and have been so for a very very long time.
One will always be there to counter the other if used properly. That's just the nature of the beast.
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Absolutely right.
They can't be bothered to change up the same stale mission profile they have been playing for 15 years so they want the game designers to change the game to make said stale missions fun again.
If you're bored........then you're boring.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 30, 2018, 04:09:04 PM
Like I said before there are two ends of the 88's irritation spectrum ranging from zero to "I'm resigning my account." I think the players who are saying 88's aren't a problem etc. etc. are missing the big difference between manned guns and manned machines. Time invested. As much as people want to pretend that this is a contest of sociopaths or some kind of war this game is in reality a game and as such is about social relationship. This is why flying against people is more enjoyable than flying against a computer. What happens with the 88 is that since the gunner has no investment in terms of time having driven or flown they come across as non participants and kind of obnoxious. Clearly when a base is being overrun this doesn't apply but in most other cases it does. I am not saying that people who man these guns are passive aggressive griefers but I am saying that that is what it often feels like. The problem specific to the 88 is that it's range inflicts the presence of the gunner way out where he probably shouldn't be a participant. It is like he keeps butting in where no one wants him. My question is how many people would care if they just went away? (The guns not the people.) I think they are a nice idea but when there are 50 people on that idea isn't really being instantiated.
88's are machines
This whole "time invested" ideology is nothing more than an individual projection of what you consider to be quality time invested. It varies player to player.
How the player gets to a base to defend makes little difference. The fact that someone is defending the base is all that matters.
As has already been stated a dozen times, there is always a risk when you up and fly to an enemy target. like it or leave it, it is what it is.
however, I do think that Hitech should add risk for the manned AAA. perk the positions, award kills to the victor (both gun emplacement and player). seriously limit the amount of shells that the 88 holds and maybe slow the reload speed a titch.
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Post by: ccvi on October 30, 2018, 06:18:54 PM
The spray and pray method to computer ack is much better than manned ack.
Auto ack is random? For me it always seemed to start of random, and the longer I stay within range the better it adjusts it's fire on a prediction assuming constant acceleration. Initially it's more difficult to evade (because it's random - something can hit randomly regardless of any evasive maneuvers) and later on when it has zeroed in changing the lift vector sufficiently often (compared to the flight time of the bullets) it's easier to not get hit.
The 88 at their typical range are a none issue. Flight time of the shells is so long that fighters can evade easily. Of course, not while trying to preserve every little fraction of a Joule of energy needed as advantage over others.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 30, 2018, 06:58:24 PM
Auto ack is random? For me it always seemed to start of random, and the longer I stay within range the better it adjusts it's fire on a prediction assuming constant acceleration. Initially it's more difficult to evade (because it's random - something can hit randomly regardless of any evasive maneuvers) and later on when it has zeroed in changing the lift vector sufficiently often (compared to the flight time of the bullets) it's easier to not get hit.
The Auto AAA is lethal when several AAA guns converge on a target. This is achieved by multiple guns tracking you to a single point.
A human controlled AAA can adjust for lead better because Hitech doesn't have the new lazer AAA models yet.
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Post by: BuckShot on October 30, 2018, 07:40:32 PM
Blow them up or leave them alone.
Post by: Devil 505 on October 30, 2018, 08:42:17 PM
There several other issues with manned guns and also with mobile AAA also raised in this thread. I think a 1-2 minute spawn penalty should be applied to a recently killed operator of any AAA item attempting to take another one from the same base. Planes and battle tanks should be instantly available, but not AAA.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 30, 2018, 10:14:20 PM
I agree with kills of occupied manned guns counting as a player kill just like any other kill.
There several other issues with manned guns and also with mobile AAA also raised in this thread. I think a 1-2 minute spawn penalty should be applied to a recently killed operator of any AAA item attempting to take another one from the same base. Planes and battle tanks should be instantly available, but not AAA.
A minute would be way to long. If a time restriction were placed on them I would imagine something more in the realm of 15-30 seconds but an alternative would be to reduce the ammo load by 1/4 with each relaunch after death from that specific base.
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Post by: Slade on October 31, 2018, 01:40:25 PM
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I agree with kills of occupied manned guns counting as a player kill just like any other kill.
+1
Post by: ccvi on October 31, 2018, 01:56:24 PM
Edit: And if only for the message, does it count towards the achievement to land XX kills?
Post by: pembquist on October 31, 2018, 02:25:34 PM
88's are machines
This whole "time invested" ideology is nothing more than an individual projection of what you consider to be quality time invested. It varies player to player.
How the player gets to a base to defend makes little difference. The fact that someone is defending the base is all that matters.
As has already been stated a dozen times, there is always a risk when you up and fly to an enemy target. like it or leave it, it is what it is.
however, I do think that Hitech should add risk for the manned AAA. perk the positions, award kills to the victor (both gun emplacement and player). seriously limit the amount of shells that the 88 holds and maybe slow the reload speed a titch.
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With respect, I do not believe I was being obscure when I used the word machines as short cut for aircraft, ground vehicles, pt boats.
My comment was not a statement of ideology but an analysis of why the 88 is irritating or not. You are quite correct that the experience of the dynamic varies from player to player however I believe that more players than not are irritated by the presence of the 88 when a base is not under heavy attack. I do not have data, you do not have data so this will never be resolved as far as that goes, however that is really the crux of the biscuit as it doesn't matter what is "right" but whether or not the game is more fun than not to play.
I certainly think that the suggestions you make for modifying how the 88 fits into game play could be improvements over the status quo. What I don't understand is why you reject out of hand that the difference in player experience with regard to time and commitment that an aircraft pilot makes versus an 88 gunner is the reason that pilots find them annoying since the changes you suggest seem to be an attempt to require of the gunner more time and commitment.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 31, 2018, 03:30:52 PM
With respect, I do not believe I was being obscure when I used the word machines as short cut for aircraft, ground vehicles, pt boats.
Calling a duck a duck and a dog a dog.
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My comment was not a statement of ideology but an analysis of why the 88 is irritating or not. You are quite correct that the experience of the dynamic varies from player to player however I believe that more players than not are irritated by the presence of the 88 when a base is not under heavy attack. I do not have data, you do not have data so this will never be resolved as far as that goes, however that is really the crux of the biscuit as it doesn't matter what is "right" but whether or not the game is more fun than not to play.
What causes irritation is a matter of personal preference and nothing more. The 88 is a defensive weapon and when used properly is very effective but not so effective that it becomes some super weapon that kills everything in sight, it is a tool that we can use, so why not use it regardless of the situation.
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I certainly think that the suggestions you make for modifying how the 88 fits into game play could be improvements over the status quo. What I don't understand is why you reject out of hand that the difference in player experience with regard to time and commitment that an aircraft pilot makes versus an 88 gunner is the reason that pilots find them annoying since the changes you suggest seem to be an attempt to require of the gunner more time and commitment.
The changes I recommend are there to give reward to the pilot for their perceived risk in attacking the manned gun positions and to add a risk to the gunner manning the position. Nothing lost is nothing gained ideology.
Both sides of the field reject out of hand the difference in player experience with regard to time and commitment. Pilots should find them annoying, just like gunners should find rockets annoying and buff drivers find patrolling aircraft annoying. If you do find them annoying, then they are doing their job.
Post by: Oldman731 on October 31, 2018, 07:31:49 PM
the crux of the biscuit
I like that expression! Thanks, I believe I can put it to wide use.
That's just one of the nice benefits of AH, we're always getting new ideas.
- oldman
Post by: lunaticfringe on November 01, 2018, 08:24:45 PM
Post by: ccvi on November 02, 2018, 04:59:38 AM
if you want to wish for something, wish for the air to ground rockets did a wider splash damage like they did in AH2-then all a rocket or HE rounds had to do is hit close, now they have hit directly on the target, I have watched enough RL films to know that not all rockets directly hit there target but hit close enough to cause great damage. this alone would help with you're 88 problem. just saying.
I haven't measured the distance, but a direct hit with rockets is surely not required for auto and mannable ack.
Post by: Slade on November 12, 2018, 06:11:58 AM
Quote
What causes irritation is a matter of personal preference and nothing more.
I agree 100%. Reality does not care what humans with personalities and egos think.
As a human, I still have preferences and that is that 88's be used in the air defense role primarily used in WWII.
Being a little silly...otherwise they could rename the game 88's Low! LOL
All good. Love this game. Its just a preference. A wish.
Post by: save on November 12, 2018, 08:28:37 AM
What is any other kill? Count them as fighters? GVs? In attack or also fighter mode? Or just for the relatively meaningless "landed xy kills" message?
Edit: And if only for the message, does it count towards the achievement to land XX kills?
Count them as trees :old:
Post by: bustr on November 13, 2018, 12:32:42 PM
If someone can hit anything in the air with an 88, that is quite some accomplishment. If I want to hit things with an 88 online, I have to spend about a week offline on my gunnery terrain practicing from 5-7k against the drone circle to tune up my timing for the fuse, plane travel, and drop off the back side of the arc. And yes I listened to at least two players talk about creating a clear plastic monitor over lay with aiming guides for the fuse\range drop. I still don't see much lazer guided slaughtering of planes around feilds. Those kinds of aids can be problematic just like thinking my offline terrain where I can spawn a wirble 800yds from the drone circle will make it possible for me to wipe out all fighters at a field online. The Internet more often laughs at all of this when I'm online shooting at other players while I'm duplicating the lead and sight picture from my offline practice. Incidentally, the 37mm is really only accurate against fast moving fighters inside of 2000 with 1000-1500 being ideal. At that point the AI ack is more accurate than a player.
If you are running around a field trying to get someone to up or you are inside of any manned gun range, the guys plinking at you were never going to up in the first place. Having Hitech purposely make man-able field guns inaccurate is really the same as a wish asking him to remove them from all feilds. In the past he would ask a type of question about this along the line of once he did remove those guns or purposely made them inaccurate. What was to keep him from replacing them with AI guns with really dialed up accuracy to achieve his original intent when he first installed the man-able guns?
In this whole wish discussion so far, you have not gotten a response from Hitech about how he looks at his original intent for man-able guns and current game play. Especially since your wish more accurately should be one asking for them to be removed from all feilds in the hope that will force his customers to up planes for you to shoot at.
Post by: Shuffler on November 13, 2018, 01:08:53 PM
Post by: bustr on November 13, 2018, 01:24:16 PM
Post by: turt21 on November 13, 2018, 05:06:09 PM
Post by: The Fugitive on November 13, 2018, 05:37:27 PM
Post by: 800nate800 on November 13, 2018, 05:41:40 PM
Post by: bustr on November 13, 2018, 06:16:44 PM
The point again is, More people in 88s = less people in planes.
Do you really think this has any causation to why they are in 88's, 37mm, wirbles or just watching the game from the tower. Realistically, without those diversions they would just log off. With those, you may get them out later on that evening or day in planes or GV if some initiative picks up at another location. If they log off, that initiative may never start up because there would be no illusion of numbers. You and nate are viewing other customers motivations for being here myopically and through a lot of self serving personal projection.
The 20\80 principle holds true for this game how ever low or high the arena numbers are. When we had 400 a night it was not as noticeable that numbers of players were sitting in man-able guns becasue there were enough of the percentage who wanted to play piu, piu, piu in airplanes to keep you from noticing. With less than 200, everything about how customers want to interact with the game environment is unavoidably noticeable. People who sit in man-able guns do eventually up in planes or GVs, just not on your schedule to make you happy.
Post by: The Fugitive on November 13, 2018, 06:32:51 PM
Team,
I dont know why one is compelled to get in an 88 to shoot down my P-40. No worries this is not a rage post.
In THIS game I'd like to think anything that keeps a player in a PLANE or at least a GV is the ideal. Minimally I'd like the accuracy of 88's to be taken WAY WAY down to promote people getting in vehicles.
Can I please get some +1's on this wish fellas!?
Thanks,
Slade :salute
Post by: Slade on November 18, 2018, 09:00:47 AM
Now as far as WWII realism... :old:
Post by: icepac on November 18, 2018, 06:23:46 PM
Same people complaining about being main gunned by a tank on 200.....and it happens to the same people over and over.
Post by: Slade on November 20, 2018, 07:33:01 AM
Quote
Same people complaining about being main gunned by a tank on 200.....and it happens to the same people over and over.
I never complained about that and never will.
88's ability to hit a fast moving plane less than 1k out however...
Post by: Slade on December 02, 2018, 01:23:25 PM
Who would be happy about this other than the guy exploiting the 88. :old:
EDIT 1: Three times in a row = 1 ping 88 deaths. You can PM me for his name but I won't call him or any out in public. This exploit needs to go!
In an effort to find a solution, if we could know the location of a person that exploits an 88 (via an personal ACL*), and only if they are in an 88, we could avoid them.
* ACL = Access Control List
Code-wise something like this (assuming an 88 weapon_type is say "1001"):
IF (upper(player_name) = "JSMITH") and (ActiveWeapon = 1001) THEN
BaseColor="Purple"
END IF
Could loop through a personal ACL via an array etc..
That is, if an 88 exploiter is in a 88 make the base color purple...and thus I\we wont go there and enjoy their 88 one shot ping kills.
EDIT 2: Being solutions oriented, I came to the above after actually upping a plane (190f8) to try and take out his 88. He popped me in one shot as I dropped within 1k. What more can I do? I dont want to quit.
Hey, I live with knowing there are many exploit-ish behaviors in any game. If any of you have a real counter to this one PM me. I'll stop posting and they can continue to exploit the 88 as they wish.
Post by: ccvi on December 02, 2018, 02:40:36 PM
EDIT 2: Being solutions oriented, I came to the above after actually upping a plane (190f8) to try and take out his 88. He popped me in one shot as I dropped within 1k. What more can I do? I dont want to quit.
Obviously, simply shoot him from 2k (e.g. with rockets), or from an angle he cannot shoot back at (exactly vertical), or circle around faster than he can turn his gun (this works nicely in combination with a vertical approach, as with a tiny change you can make him require a 180deg turn).
Post by: bustr on December 02, 2018, 04:16:47 PM
You can plot for the 37mm to give you lead at different speeds of passing planes. It's just the 100mph principle that anyone can look up and Hitech's environment is authentic to it. I should know since I created all the historic gunsight reticles for AH3 after years of research and application. The 37mm iron sight outer ring is 140Mil, so from there you calculate for lead at different speeds. Then you plot a 140Mil radi lead chart for every 100mph up to say 500 and tape that to your monitor when you are in the 37mm POing the pickers and vulchers and furball boys. I have an offline only terrain where I've setup a mesa just under the drones to practice with the wirble, 88, and a 37mm just under the drones as the pass by at elevations and ranges we see on airfields being attacked. Even have one set back from the runway for practice at 7k against the drones. I have tank ranges where I can sit 3miles out from the tank drones and hone my shooting skill in a tank while seeing how the different rounds work against different models of tank drones. Hmm, I should place an 88 and 17lb out there, didn't think about that this last time I modified that terrain to understand something that happens in the MA trees on BowlMA.
There are a number of AAF and USN manuals from WW2 that give you everything needed to create a 140Mil radi lead computing overlay. I'm betting Hitech used those manuals as references in creating his environment. So you are angry becasue someone decided to apply math and physics to make up for their lack of ability in ACM becasue they are not paying Hitech $14.95 just to feed you easy kills? It's not their job to do what you want to make you happy for their $14.95. At least they are not posting templates here in the forums for anyone to create the overlay. I've been nice and never gone that far, I just give away copies of my offline testing terrain. The draw back to offline mode with the drones is they travel slower than we fight in the MA. So if you learn to lead offline with the lead computing sight, you are learning to lead cons traveling at 250mph versus in the MA 300-500mph. Kind of sneaky of Hitech isn't it.....
Post by: Vraciu on December 02, 2018, 05:28:28 PM
Post by: Shuffler on December 03, 2018, 05:30:31 AM
1 ping at less than 1k. One ping and dead. :rolleyes:
Who would be happy about this other than the guy exploiting the 88. :old:
EDIT 1: Three times in a row = 1 ping 88 deaths. You can PM me for his name but I won't call him or any out in public. This exploit needs to go!
In an effort to find a solution, if we could know the location of a person that exploits an 88 (via an personal ACL*), and only if they are in an 88, we could avoid them.
* ACL = Access Control List
Code-wise something like this (assuming an 88 weapon_type is say "1001"):
IF (upper(player_name) = "JSMITH") and (ActiveWeapon = 1001) THEN
BaseColor="Purple"
END IF
Could loop through a personal ACL via an array etc..
That is, if an 88 exploiter is in a 88 make the base color purple...and thus I\we wont go there and enjoy their 88 one shot ping kills.
EDIT 2: Being solutions oriented, I came to the above after actually upping a plane (190f8) to try and take out his 88. He popped me in one shot as I dropped within 1k. What more can I do? I dont want to quit.
Hey, I live with knowing there are many exploit-ish behaviors in any game. If any of you have a real counter to this one PM me. I'll stop posting and they can continue to exploit the 88 as they wish.
What plane do you "exploit"?
Post by: Vinkman on December 03, 2018, 08:02:04 AM
EDIT 2: Being solutions oriented, I came to the above after actually upping a plane (190f8) to try and take out his 88. He popped me in one shot as I dropped within 1k. What more can I do? ...
I suggest a modification to your attack method. Do not dive straight at the gun. Flying straight at him means he can set the fuse distance for 1.5K and wait for you to fly to the perfect distance...And your'e not making him articulate the gun. The 88 traverses so slowly it can't keep up with fast moving targets within 3k, and quickly adjusting fuse distance over a wide is very hard to do accurately. Adopt an attack method that maximizes those weaknesses. I suggest...
1) Dive several hundred yards to the side of the gun, not straight at it. This forces the gunner to charge pitch and azimuth and fuse distance continuously.
2) Zoom past it. High yo-yo, align for a shot and attack. The 88 traverses so slowly it can't keep up with fast moving targets within 3k. and has ZERO chance of rotating 180 deg before you get you shot off. In an F8 you should fast enough and tough enough to avoid getting killed by the auto ack for at least 1 yo-yo pass as described.
It's easy when you think about it. Good luck :salute
Post by: save on December 03, 2018, 10:30:33 AM
1 ping at less than 1k. One ping and dead. :rolleyes:
Who would be happy about this other than the guy exploiting the 88. :old:
EDIT 1: Three times in a row = 1 ping 88 deaths. You can PM me for his name but I won't call him or any out in public. This exploit needs to go!
In an effort to find a solution, if we could know the location of a person that exploits an 88 (via an personal ACL*), and only if they are in an 88, we could avoid them.
* ACL = Access Control List
Code-wise something like this (assuming an 88 weapon_type is say "1001"):
IF (upper(player_name) = "JSMITH") and (ActiveWeapon = 1001) THEN
BaseColor="Purple"
END IF
Could loop through a personal ACL via an array etc..
That is, if an 88 exploiter is in a 88 make the base color purple...and thus I\we wont go there and enjoy their 88 one shot ping kills.
EDIT 2: Being solutions oriented, I came to the above after actually upping a plane (190f8) to try and take out his 88. He popped me in one shot as I dropped within 1k. What more can I do? I dont want to quit.
Hey, I live with knowing there are many exploit-ish behaviors in any game. If any of you have a real counter to this one PM me. I'll stop posting and they can continue to exploit the 88 as they wish.
FW190F8 can easily, after some training - take out an Ack/88mm at 11k altitude.
Post by: bustr on December 03, 2018, 01:30:41 PM
Post by: JOACH1M on December 04, 2018, 07:25:23 AM
There is a player who has gone to the trouble of creating a clear plastic overlay for his monitor to help him aim the 88 and it works like a semi-aimbot.Spill the beans
Post by: Ramesis on December 04, 2018, 03:11:31 PM
Spill the beans
Is this illegal or against game rules?
If not, why bother bring it up?
Post by: bustr on December 04, 2018, 04:47:53 PM
You need a copy of "TME9-369A_Germ88.pdf" which is available on the Internet if you look around. It has all the tables in the back starting on page 167 for the time fused round. Then you sit offline with a clear overlay taped to your monitor firing the 88 at different ranges marking their detonation points. Using the 100mph principle you create vertical lead lines to gauge how far ahead of your target to aim relative to the m\sec column and average combat speeds. Then you find opportunities to practice in the MA. You are turning an analog computing reticle into a clear overlay on your screen. What do you think the gunsights in your planes are? I suspect doing an overlay with a cross and circle equivalent to 140-240Mil and some practice might be almost as good with practice. One of the 88's weak points is the lack of a reticle which Hitech probably did on purpose to reduce it's lethality inside of 5k. In direct fire mode against tanks a reticle would make hitting tanks between 1000-3000 simple. You can plot that with the help of the target command, a plastic overlay and a sharpie.
It was a very slow late night sitting at a vBase in AH2 hoping the low alt Lanc bomber guy would come back for one more tree top run at us when that old player described his 88 overlay and how he created it. Eurastus even told us how he was able hit bases long distance with the M4 rockets. Once again offline practice while knowing the vBase layout for AH2, and he was willing to spend the time. He never told us how he knew his range to the base. But once you know the height of the radar tower, it's just some Mil math against the main gun reticle.
Have none of you considered while in land mode in the 8inch on the cruiser you can push the map in to full zoom over the map room. Then with a clear overlay and the street layout, target buildings with almost pinpoint accuracy? I thought about it since I make terrains and all I would have to do is paint the boarder of the 1x1 mile town square. Generate a clip board map. Then offline zoom in with a transparency on my monitor and outline the square and the map room. Then blow up the town map and transfer the streets to the transparency. The town can only be oriented N,E,S,W per terrain editor restrictions for square objects. I'm sure you can see where this is going. A whole lot of work I wouldn't feel like giving away or even bothering with since what's the point when practice and experience will make you just about as good.
Because of how much work it takes to make an 88 overlay, I don't blame that old vet for keeping it to himself. I just gave you the instructions to do it your selves.
Post by: Slade on December 06, 2018, 06:33:00 AM
>> What plane do you "exploit"?
The P-40 of course! Just kidding. Not everyone exploits things in AH.
You want to know what I exploit? You ready? I exploit Oswald Boelcke Rules of Air Combat:
* Make sure you attain a position of advantage when in air combat (speed, altitude, numerical superiority, position), before you attack.
* Fly from out of the sun.
* When you start an attack, prosecute it to the end.
* Fire the machine gun at close range and only when you have your opponent well in your sights.
* Go after the opponent from where he cannot see you.
* In any form of attack, it is required to approach the enemy from behind.
* If you are attacked by an opponent diving on you from above, do not try to dodge the attack, but turn into and toward the attacker.
* If you find yourself over enemy lines, always keep an eye toward your own direction of retreat.
* For squadrons: The principle method of attack is to fly in groups of four to six aircraft. When the fight scatters into single battles, make sure that not too many comrades fall upon any single opponent.
Disclaimer: Some players get upset when they encounter someone flying using the above. The cool thing about this game is that it is modeled so close to WWII planes and ACM that most of this works well. Kudos to HiTech! :salute