Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Meatwad on September 22, 2023, 08:37:55 AM
It was bound to happen. The novelty has worn off and people are getting upset that the other countries wont send everything they have to the black hole and then leave themselves mostly defenseless in case russia decides to go full retard in europe, which will take years to recover the stockpile given the slow production rates of factories
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on September 22, 2023, 08:56:27 AM
It was bound to happen. The novelty has worn off and people are getting upset that the other countries wont send everything they have to the black hole and then leave themselves mostly defenseless in case russia decides to go full retard in europe, which will take years to recover the stockpile given the slow production rates of factories
Trade negotiation.
The Kremlin supporters are going to be disappointed.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Eagler on September 22, 2023, 09:32:18 AM
Poland citizens are being affected adversely
Poland stated Ukraine was a drowning person who in desperation pull down those trying to save it..
We were told Poland is next..
I guess Poland doesn't see it that way
Eagler
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on September 22, 2023, 09:43:15 AM
They are arming at an insane rate exactly because they understand Russia has no intention of stopping with Ukraine and they will be next on the chopping block.
This is a temporary trade dispute over grain. And they are still transferring their older equipment and functioning as a supply depot for everyone else.
The Kremlin Janes are going to be disappointed.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Eagler on September 22, 2023, 09:47:59 AM
Or that is the global excuse given..
Why the worrying now? NATO stands ready to protect them..has that changed?
What has then? Maybe the people's tolerance? The affected the grain shipments are having on the Polish farmers?
Did you see the video comparing Ukraine to a drowning victim?
It was up yesterday but can't locate it today...no surprise there
Eagler
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on September 22, 2023, 09:50:59 AM
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on September 22, 2023, 09:56:11 AM
Poland wants desperately to upgrade their whole force to top generation weapons.
They can only buy those from the US, directly or indirectly. Few players want Russian weaponry at this point.
At some point, someone will lean over and whisper in their ear, "Yeah, we only sell our weapons to team players. Are you going to be a team player, Poland?"
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: GasTeddy on September 22, 2023, 03:08:15 PM
If tsar Putain gets what his two weeks specinsane operation tries to achieve, he won't leave it there. In one hand I understand if Poland wants to keep its army in top shape, on another, would be better to stop megalomaniac madman in Ukraine before he is knocking the door. Finland is tightrope walking in a same position with its 1340 km border with Russia.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Eagler on September 22, 2023, 03:52:12 PM
Poland and Finland (now) are both NATO countries
Ukraine is not
See what money and weapons were thrown into this conflict
Can you imagine the military complex feast an attack on either NATO nation would produce?
My guess is some of those supporting this would welcome such an expansion
I didn't/don't see it happening...ever...especially now this far into the current conflict
Eagler
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: fd ski on September 22, 2023, 04:48:13 PM
please do not draw any conclusions about Poland based on what moron (President) and an idiot (Prime Minister) say. They are a f....g disgraces and if it goes well, we'll get rid of them in month's time.
They are about as representative of population as Biden is representative of US citizen on this board... ;)
I'll write more tomorrow as it is getting late here.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Mano on September 22, 2023, 07:51:33 PM
please do not draw any conclusions about Poland based on what moron (President) and an idiot (Prime Minister) say. They are a f....g disgraces and if it goes well, we'll get rid of them in month's time.
They are about as representative of population as Biden is representative of US citizen on this board... ;)
I'll write more tomorrow as it is getting late here.
contraption I'm genuinely interested to read more, truly, why you think so. I spent some time this year in Poland, twice. Close to its eastern border saw some interesting contraptions, as well as in Slovakia.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: rabbidrabbit on September 23, 2023, 06:25:52 AM
For some balance to what was said:
Poland:
We have signed contracts with Ukraine, such as those for the supply of KRAB gun howitzers, and we are fulfilling them. We have other agreements regarding, for example, ammunition and mine-clearing vehicles needed for the counteroffensive, about which I was asked by the President of Ukraine and about which I discussed with the Minister of Defense. I will be the first to oppose transferring new weapons that we receive from Korea or the USA. As we receive it, we will ease the arms currently in stock and perhaps transfer them to Ukraine, as we have done so far - President of the Republic of Poland @AndrzejDudaMamy podpisane kontrakty z Ukraina, jak te na dostawe armatohaubic KRAB i je wypelniamy. Mamy inne porozumienia dotyczace chociazby amunicji czy pojazdów rozminowywania potrzebnych do kontrofensywy, o które bylem proszony przez prezydenta Ukrainy i o czym rozmawialem z ministrem… pic.twitter.com/6U2e1LUFEB — BBN (@BBN_PL) September 21, 2023
When asked whether Poland is close to “breaking its alliance with Ukraine”, the Polish President simply responded “Are you kidding?”
I believe Poland and UA announced an agreement on grain that would protect Polish farmers so perhaps things are cleared up with Poland enabling other countries to support UA and keeping existing contracts while focusing on rebuilding their military. Eagler, there seems to have been a bit of political tensions that came to the surface with elections coming up in 3 weeks for Poland and it seems to not be what you think it is. That's my take by looking at what both Poland and UA are actually saying and how it compares to the pro Russian spin that some people mistake for news.
I look forward to Ski's thoughts.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Eagler on September 23, 2023, 07:01:21 AM
Thanks fd ski and rabbidrabbit
I was hoping you would comment
Not sure why some think this conflict can't or shouldn't be discussed
It is the most important singular event happening today imo
I posted this after hearing the polish pres make the drowning victim statement which did not sound like they were going to support Ukraine going forward..or until the grain issue was resolved..
Polish people have gone above and beyond with the immigration
Just have to wonder if those that left Ukraine go back regardless the outcome
Peace ✌️
Eagler
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: fd ski on September 23, 2023, 08:43:40 AM
for clarity. I'm USA and Polish citizen. I live in Poland (Warsaw) for almost 20 years now.
Ruling party
PiS has been in power for 8 years. They took complete power thanks to corruption scandal which seems to lead to some kremlin money/sources. Basically some recordings surfaced that suggested corruption in politics (wow !!!) which was enough to swing the vote. Guy who made recordings has been in business of importing coal from russia, with some sweetheart deals and shady history. Go figure. As for our version of cleaning the swamp- nobody was convicted of anything and no proof of widespread corruption was offered. Brave crimefighters in charge are currently embroiled in a scandal where they sold visa's to poland ( and EU ) for 5k$ a pop to hundred thousands of people in africa and asia. Some of them ended up on Mexican border of all places.
In essence, our president is a puppet of the party with no opinion of his own. He's pretty dumb at that. Prime minister is an opportunist who tends to say stupid toejam when riled up.
Recently their standings in upcoming election polls are falling so they are taking hard turn right. PiS has always been a right wing party (with very left wing populist economic views) and always took care that nothing grows to the right of them. As it stands there is a new party - Konfederacja - (Confederation) which polls at 9-10% in some cases and can be easily grouped with Kremin sponsored parties all over the europe. It's a gathering of neo-nazis, nationalists, conspiracy theorists and free market extremists promising to "flip the table" which tends to resonate with some people. They are taking some of the PiS electorate with them, so PiS has to start being more nationalistic, more protective of "national interests" and so on. This is where "we have to take care of ourselves before we help", "we already helped too much" statements come from. They are aimed at local electorate, some of which views help to Ukraine with "why them before us" approach. Many of the same people are pro-russia or anti-ukraine, but keeping low as those things are currently not well received.
Population
People in Poland as some of the least sympathetic to Russia you'll find on the planet. We can easily compete with Finns. Poland has a long history of animosity with Russia and most "first hand" experience with Rusky-mir. If any politician came out as "pro-russia" here, they would be pretty screwed. This is why they always wrap in nationalistic, pro-slavic bs instead.
If you hear anyone talking about Poland wanting some of the Ukraine or Belorus territories "back", i can assure you that such ideas never surfaced in local politics, i never heard of anyone advocating for this in any conversation. Such claims are nothing more then Kremlin propaganda aimed at creating false symmetry. People in Poland are looking west, not east. Last 30 years since joining west has been good to us, people can live a good life and only nutcases would advocate for some kin of slavic solidarity under a Russian flag. There are no ambitions for recreating historical greatness (Rzeczpospolita od morza do morza - Poland from sea to sea) those things are just too far in the past.
We are proud of what we did for Ukrainians when war started. Government was slow, didn't do much. What you saw on the news in 99% was just private people giving their roof, money or whatever. Personally i had a 5 people family in my house for 6 months. It was great, they even visited couple weeks ago cause we missed them :) There are still lots of Ukrainians living in Poland. They became a norm. While incidents might happen, in general it is normal and expected to hear Ukrainian language just about anywhere. They are not persecuted, kids go to school. There are still people helping. Poland has been under Russian occupation for great many years, while only some of us remember communist brotherhood at the end of the bayonet, most heard from their parents/grandparent etc. We'll be helping as much as we can.
Trade - peasant parties has quite an influence. As it is in states, seats in both houses tends to go with regions where in some less populated ones, much smaller group of people can swing the vote more. This leads to entire hoopla with Ukrainian produce. While price of grain went down ( which should be a good thing ) it causes some uproar in those areas and government had to "act". Mostly in self interest (reelection) but they still did. If you look at similar cases in other counties (Slovakia) in same case after initial sabre rattling, they quickly came to "agreement". Governments could show that they did something, but the right thing still happen.
Instability you might observe in news when it comes to Poland is down to incompetent leadership of our government. PiS is a dictator party - there is a one old man (Kaczyński) who plays conservative (always single, likely closet gay) but is mostly interested in ruling as long as possible. They undermined a constitutional process, staffed the courts with lackeys. For example - lady leading our supreme court was sanctioned from county court for incompetence. Many of our ministers are people with IQ barely exceeding their shoesize - but they are loyal to the dictator.
Pay close attention to the news in next 3 weeks in Poland. We have elections on 15th and lot of things hangs in balance. Regardless of the result, though, i think we will continue to support Ukraine. It is also in our own self-interest.
Sorry for the incoherent rant :) Hope some of it makes sense. If you have any questions - feel free to ask.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Oldman731 on September 23, 2023, 08:53:10 AM
We are proud of what we did for Ukrainians when war started. Government was slow, didn't do much. What you saw on the news in 99% was just private people giving their roof, money or whatever. Personally i had a 5 people family in my house for 6 months. It was great, they even visited couple weeks ago cause we missed them :)
* * *
Sorry for the incoherent rant :) Hope some of it makes sense. If you have any questions - feel free to ask.
All of it made sense. Thanks for this, and for being a good person, ski.
- oldman
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on September 23, 2023, 09:33:57 AM
for clarity. I'm USA and Polish citizen. I live in Poland (Warsaw) for almost 20 years now.
Poland has done a huge amount for the war effort. It has punched way above it's weight. They get it. They know, unlike the pro-Kremlin Useful Idiots in the West, that Ukraine is just step one, and they will be next. Along with Romania, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania. They understand, unlike the Kremlin Jane's here in the West, that it is cheaper for everyone to stop the Russians in Ukraine instead.
Stupid politicians aside, the main contribution from Poland is their continued role as a supply hub and distribution point for supplies to Ukraine.
The crappy Soviet-era equipment they have cleared out of their inventory and give to Ukraine is a small percentage of the aid given compared to US or Germany. The main importance is to keep the supply conduit open.
If they are team players, they will have no problem replacing their old stuff they give away with new top tier stuff from the US. We will facilitate that, if they are team players. My guess is the politicians will realize the benefits of staying team players. Team players get access to all kinds of new toys.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Captain Virgil Hilts on September 23, 2023, 10:13:25 AM
for clarity. I'm USA and Polish citizen. I live in Poland (Warsaw) for almost 20 years now.
(clipped for brevity)
Pay close attention to the news in next 3 weeks in Poland. We have elections on 15th and lot of things hangs in balance. Regardless of the result, though, i think we will continue to support Ukraine. It is also in our own self-interest.
Sorry for the incoherent rant :) Hope some of it makes sense. If you have any questions - feel free to ask.
Thank you. I appreciate the information, the intelligent discourse, and your compassion for the actual humans. You're a good soul.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Eagler on September 23, 2023, 11:04:47 AM
Howdy fd ski Thanks for taking the time and providing that very thorough and thoughtful insight.
You and yours are truly a blessing
Crazy sounds like it is global these days
Hope yours turns out well in the coming weeks
Eagler
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: GasTeddy on September 23, 2023, 12:19:57 PM
People in Poland as some of the least sympathetic to Russia you'll find on the planet. We can easily compete with Finns. Poland has a long history of animosity with Russia and most "first hand" experience with Rusky-mir. If any politician came out as "pro-russia" here, they would be pretty screwed. This is why they always wrap in nationalistic, pro-slavic bs instead.
As a native Finn living nowadays in Bulgaria, I must say I believe that easily. We were lucky enough to avoid being members of Warsaw Pack, as we rejected the invitation.
I've been visiting Poland more or less frequently since mid 80s, first in business and later on pleasure trips. Poland has developed enormously during those times and nowadays when I'm in there, it reminds me of Sweden at 80s. Nowadays Sweden, well, it's more Marrakesh during some armed conflict, but at 80s it was a great place. Neat, clean and all the services worked well. People are more reserved than here in Balkan Circus, but never met any hostility or unfriendly attitude. And those people making nowadays Sweden a gang war zone, they are missing. Those who have followed EU immigration policy and Swedens "everyone welcome"-attitude know what I mean.
Shortly, as my 12 years old son said on a way back from Finland with Jeep, "Poland is a great country".
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: LCADolby on September 23, 2023, 12:40:48 PM
I work with a lot of Poles and have a housemate who's from Katowice. I can speak a little Polish and swear a lot, phonetically "Ya-pier-dollar Dupek, Kuva-match!". They are some of the greatest, most hardest working people I have ever known. I wish them all the best.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Vulcan on September 24, 2023, 04:46:23 PM
We cant because it hurts peoples feelings, especially if it goes against their views.
In this wokecancel era one gets executed by telling peacefully an opinion, what differs from those who claim to be the most liberal, tolerant and understanding.
Anyway, at least we can laugh at our leaders and make jokes of them. Try it in certain countries and dungeons are calling.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: GasTeddy on October 02, 2023, 04:26:26 PM
And now in Slovakia, southern neighbor of Poland, russophiles won the elections.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Busher on October 02, 2023, 06:06:43 PM
I was in Slovakia recently, every house had windows.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: fd ski on October 03, 2023, 02:40:11 AM
yeah, not sure of Slovaks don't study history and don't remember 1968 ?
Personally i'm fine with Hungry (it has been a dictatorship for a while now) and Slovakia ( if new government chooses so) existing NATO and EU. People don't appreciate certain things until they lose them. Let them have 10 years of rusky mir and they'll be begging to join back in, if they manage to break free from their "friendly" overlords.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Eagler on October 03, 2023, 08:03:31 AM
Sounds like countries much closer to Ukraine than the United States are tiring of supporting this war without end...
Much of the United States reached it a while ago..
Eagler
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Busher on October 03, 2023, 10:17:02 AM
I seem to remember another despot who claimed he'd be content if the world yielded the Sudetenland to his control. Seemed he had more expansion plans beyond Ukraine ... oops I meant Czechoslovakia.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: GasTeddy on October 03, 2023, 10:33:01 AM
Sounds like countries much closer to Ukraine than the United States are tiring of supporting this war without end...
It's pretty much populism, to get votes as Poland is also having elections soon. Poland has a long border with Russia and they know megalomaniac despot does not stop if he wins in Ukraine. Just like Hitler and Stalin, tsar Putler wants more. He takes a breath and continues, if he is not stopped.
On the other hand, power may change in Russia, 1917 may happen again. Previous tsar, Nikolai II, was kicked from throne exactly because of war going not so well, army begun rebelling. Tsar Putain may face something similar. Hopefully. And sooner the better.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 03, 2023, 10:53:08 AM
I doubt now as he has seen what lengths nato went for a non nato country...
Ah.
So you mean he might have gone further if NATO had not shown strong resolve in resisting his illegal territorial invasion?
It's almost like showing any weakness would have only encouraged the dictator to grab for more? Weakness never appeases a bully, it only encourages them to go further.
Appeasement never works.
I think you might be just starting to figure it out. Congratulations, Neville.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: -gg- on October 03, 2023, 03:32:07 PM
Not sure how you think I support putin but you as usual are wrong again
So you are for providing Ukraine weapons to push the Russians back to their own borders?
Or do you think Putin should be allowed to keep large swaths of Ukraine? So like, take a bit then negotiate a peace to rebuild. Then take another bit and then negotiate a peace to rebuild, etc. Chechnya. Georgia. Crimea. Ukraine. Romania. Poland. Latvia. Estonia. Lithuania. Finland.
Negotiations can start as soon as Russia returns to it's own territory. Until then, every dead Russian makes this world a better place and every single thing we can send to help kill more of them is God's work.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: LCADolby on October 03, 2023, 04:08:25 PM
I hate to say this but peace was already had at the Minsk agreement, ~Nato send in Boris Johnson afterward to torpedo the agreement and cause the war. Russians are doing what they are supposed to be doing. While I believe wholeheartedly that there should be no bloodshed, there is war for a reason; Because Nato and Ukraine forced this war breaking its agreements. Nothing can change that fact
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 03, 2023, 04:14:51 PM
It's not going to matter now many weapons anyone gives to Ukraine when they have no more people willing to use them...
The UN global cabal is just as corrupt and deranged as Putin. Perhaps even more so, look at Covid... This war is because the UN cabal decided they were going to shrug off Putin and his 8 years of speeches to the UN regarding his issues with Ukraine and treatment of people in the north. Further more, it's 100% proven as facts that Tinybook and his boys are the Nazis and made deals with Soros and others, I mean we have McCain shaking his hand afterall. So we all know that since the coup of 2013 a lot went down and a lot has been corrupted by Ukraine "leadership" infact nothing really improved. And further we know that serious levels of corruption are going on in Ukraine when we have lobbyist like HB helping his father as VP and doing who knows what with Metabiota and the energy company there.
So you don't have to agree with any side or help promote anyway. Infact, Ukraine use to be Russia afterall, so would you say they "stole it" from Russia? Or who knows how long you want to go back, but this is not Soviet Russia we are dealing with. Infact, this is the most "free" Russia has been since 1901 because Putin didn't like soviet communism. He has yet gone more right wing and religious interestingly enough and now is labeled hatefully since the election of Trump as " the bad guy" from organizations that are now more left, ironically.
But isn't it's strange how, an organization such as the UN, is there to "stop wars" yet they promoted this one because they refused to acknowledge Putin and thought they could get away with their global take over corruption racket thru poor Ukraine, not in NATO, so as to use them as a proxy...
Again I feel bad for the citizens, but unfortunately they are stuck in between 2 power factions trying to use the state for their benefit.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: GasTeddy on October 03, 2023, 05:00:42 PM
Maybe before the invasion putin had larger plans..
I doubt now as he has seen what lengths nato went for a non nato country..our hawks here are wishing for an exuse to go all nato in..
Say whatever, this conflict like all others will end in peace of some sort, you can start talks now or later but they will start
Just wondering if the folks here are ready to send Americans into that conflict yet...or just more inflationary $$$
Eagler
Every conflict ends sooner or later, one way or another. In this case, it is the way it should be ending; russia has to withdraw its troops to 1994 treaty borders. It started this conflict and is the only guilty one, say russophiles what ever. And no, I don't count you as one, not at all.
I'm sure Putain was not expecting this kind of strong opposition, as he was left free to rave around in Georgia, Chechenia, Syria, Donbass and many of those former soviet -stans. Big mistake free world didn't react earlier, but it is this virtue signal era, where we just have to tolerate, understand and accept, era of loose wrist porridge pants. History has just shown his kind of madmen cannot be trusted. They may take a breath between conflicts, but they continue as long as they are able, unfortunately.
I hate to say this but peace was already had at the Minsk agreement, ~Nato send in Boris Johnson afterward to torpedo the agreement and cause the war. Russians are doing what they are supposed to be doing. While I believe wholeheartedly that there should be no bloodshed, there is war for a reason; Because Nato and Ukraine forced this war breaking its agreements. Nothing can change that fact
Could you please tell what agreements have been broken by Ukraine or NATO? If you mean "NATO will not expand to east"-agreement, there was never anything like that, no one single paper, document, treaty or contract. If someone verbally told russians NATO has no plans to expand, that is not a valid contract. And russia has shown how much it respects even signed ones, like that made 1994.
What was the treaty between Ukraine and Russia in 1994? On December 5, 1994 the leaders of Ukraine, Russia, United Kingdom, and the United States signed a memorandum to provide Ukraine with security assurances in connection with its accession to the NPT as a non-nuclear weapon state. Someone broke that and it was not Ukraine. And that treaty has something to do with the fact USA and UK are more than eager to end the conflict. But not the way tsar Putler wants.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: GasTeddy on October 03, 2023, 05:17:50 PM
Infact, Ukraine use to be Russia afterall, so would you say they "stole it" from Russia?
How about other nowadays independent countries which have been part of russia? And no, russia is not the owner of Ukraine. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ukraine)
Quote
Or who knows how long you want to go back, but this is not Soviet Russia we are dealing with. Infact, this is the most "free" Russia has been since 1901 because Putin didn't like soviet communism. He has yet gone more right wing and religious interestingly enough and now is labeled hatefully since the election of Trump as " the bad guy" from organizations that are now more left, ironically.
Are you sure he didn't like communism? (https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna7632057) I happen to know a former high ranking Stasi officer, who worked with Putain in DDR. He has told some really interesting things about tsar. Things which do not belong in here, unfortunately, as they might change some opinions.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Eagler on October 03, 2023, 05:52:09 PM
Thanks Gas Teddy
Eagler
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 03, 2023, 08:16:51 PM
How about other nowadays independent countries which have been part of russia? And no, russia is not the owner of Ukraine. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ukraine)
Are you sure he didn't like communism? (https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna7632057) I happen to know a former high ranking Stasi officer, who worked with Putain in DDR. He has told some really interesting things about tsar. Things which do not belong in here, unfortunately, as they might change some opinions.
Ah, but if you refer to that article, I don't necessarily believe what he said about the soviet union means he wants it back. I think he meant that in more of a geopolitical sense and how it maintained state identity. What I'm trying to say though is that he doesn't run the country like the soviet union. Crazy this article is from 2005.
Here are some other quotes from the article.
“We are a free nation and our place in the modern world will be defined only by how successful and strong we are,” Putin said.
"Putin said the nation’s main political challenges included boosting the rule of law and judicial institutions and deepening respect for both individual liberties and the activities of non-governmental organizations."
I"n an apparent response to foreign allegations that Russia has been backtracking on democracy, Putin said Russia’s main political task was to develop as a free, democratic nation with European ideals. He stressed that individual freedoms would not be compromised by strengthening the state."
Ways must be found to collect taxes that “ensure the rights of state and don’t destroy the economy or drive business into a dead end,” Putin said.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: GasTeddy on October 04, 2023, 01:59:33 AM
Ah, but if you refer to that article, I don't necessarily believe what he said about the soviet union means he wants it back. I think he meant that in more of a geopolitical sense and how it maintained state identity. What I'm trying to say though is that he doesn't run the country like the soviet union. Crazy this article is from 2005.
Here are some other quotes from the article.
“We are a free nation and our place in the modern world will be defined only by how successful and strong we are,” Putin said.
Showing strength (or in this case, lack of it) by invading neighbors is not the way to do it. Largest country in the world with every possible natural wealth should be also one of the richest but it isn't.
Quote
"Putin said the nation’s main political challenges included boosting the rule of law and judicial institutions and deepening respect for both individual liberties and the activities of non-governmental organizations."
Individual liberties and freedom of NGOs in russia are a joke. Law abides only those who agree in everything tsar says. Jails and cemeteries have lots of examples of those who didn't. They had a tendency to eat something what was bad for digestion, walk directly in to a bullet or have slippery shoes in speedboat at full throttle or some high spots without railings. Rank of those who he didn't like can be seen in the alt they fell from. Some fell from windows or balconies but so far Prigozhin is leading.
Quote
In an apparent response to foreign allegations that Russia has been backtracking on democracy, Putin said Russia’s main political task was to develop as a free, democratic nation with European ideals. He stressed that individual freedoms would not be compromised by strengthening the state."
Again same jokes combined in a bit different form.
Quote
Ways must be found to collect taxes that “ensure the rights of state and don’t destroy the economy or drive business into a dead end,” Putin said.
He did exactly destroy the economy and kill business with his senseless and selfish acts. If he acted like he talked, there were no war and not thousands and thousands killed and millions of people driven from their homes. If he acted like he talked, russia would be a welfare country and good, safe place to live but for some reason millions of russians had escaped from their country during his regime.
He is modern day hypocritical liar who's too scared to even show his nose outside bunkers. Just like Stalin, paranoid and living in imaginary world where everyone admires and respects him. Those have to be earned by actions, not by fear and terror.
Been there, seen that. Many things have changed since 80s, but mentality and atmosphere are still the same; don't look, don't talk, just agree and obey.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: rabbidrabbit on October 04, 2023, 07:04:33 AM
Are these news casts at the level of our CNN or is this like a Rachel Maddox level of information?
I sadly can't believe much of our "news" programs these days
I can believe the Russian populous is just as gullible as the audience here..
I used to be like CptTrips...just look up my posts after 9/11 with us starting our unwinnable 20 year wars back then.. I was all for it
The last 20 years have shown the error of my thinking back then
If they wanted to stop this war they would
I imagine we have had 1000 chances to eliminate putin but have not for some reason ..
Just like we could have up and left Afghanistan but didn't...my guess is $$$$$ not some global security issue they spewed
✌️
Eagler
I understand where you are coming from and generally agree with your perspective. In the case of UA , it takes some effort and critical thinking skills to wade through the volume of propaganda coming from every direction to understand the facts on how the war is developing. It also takes effort to understand what is being said to what group of people. The Russians in particular put out multiple narratives to different groups and the talking points to each often directly contradicts what is said to the other groups. Those were just two of hundreds of examples of the message the Russian government puts out all day long on state media. Polling of their population is consistent with state narratives which isn't surprising. The war will be ripe for peace talks when that ideology can no longer be sustained. Until then, talks of peace are just setting the stage for the next phase of the same process that has been going on since the break up of the Soviet Union.
They have a long history of crushing the truth with propaganda so the truth is indistinguishable from the specified narrative. This is a critical point. The bastion of a functional democracy is truth. Truth is the enemy of Authoritarianism in any of it's flavors. I would argue the devaluation of truth in our society is a dangerous undermining of our democracy.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Eagler on October 04, 2023, 08:38:00 AM
Thanks again rabbidrabbit
I fear the truth is under attack everywhere
Our populous regurgitate what they hear on their favorite television shows blindly here also
To think outside the box is too much for most it seems....easier to swallow it hook line and sinker and get back to their next Facebook post...
Hoping the day talks of peace comes quickly and with it the end of the useless loss of life and property
Stay safe
Eagler
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 04, 2023, 08:38:20 AM
Our populous regurgitate what they hear on their favorite television shows blindly here also
To think outside the box is too much for most it seems....easier to swallow it hook line and sinker and get back to their next Facebook post...
Hoping the day talks of peace comes quickly and with it the end of the useless loss of life and property
Stay safe
Eagler
I agree and the only way that is happening is for that Russian ideology to lose credibility and Russia to give up it's ambitions. So, the only way this war is ending in the foreseeable future is for that to happen and Russia withdraw. The Ukes don't have the choice of surrender given Russia's declared intentions.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Eagler on October 04, 2023, 08:48:01 AM
Keep putting words in my mouth cap..
I would say assassination is what it boils down to..
Bet we could pay enough for this to happen is we truly wanted it to
Instead we watch Ukraine turn into a smoldering crater we will then throw billions at to rebuild
A country no one here could even locate on a map before 2021..
Eagler
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 04, 2023, 08:51:52 AM
I would say assassination is what it boils down to..
That is against US law. And against our self interest. Our leaders are easy to assassinate too.
Quote
Executive Order 11905, executive order issued February 19, 1976, by U.S. President Gerald Ford, which prohibited any member of the U.S. government from engaging or conspiring to engage in any political assassination anywhere in the world.
Was that the only plan you had? What is your Nixonian Secret Plan to end the War????
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: rabbidrabbit on October 04, 2023, 09:27:36 AM
Please don't kill this thread too guys.
Here is a response someone else recently made that might help..
" Putin has set the Russians on a course of conquest that he can no longer control; at this point, Putin has no choice but to continue the war. Any so-called "Peace" agreement would be temporary until the Russians can rearm/refit. Russia has committed too much of their land power, residual strength, and economic power for Putin or any other leader to back down at this point. Putin and those around him see this as an existential struggle for national survival, and Russia has already abandoned much of it's advantageous position in Central Asia, it's position vis/vis China, international standing, and it's world trade relationships, etc. to win in Ukraine. Ukraine, for it's part, requires security; therefore, any since agreement the Russians would sign that they could market as a "victory" would leave Ukraine unacceptable vulnerable when (not "if) the Russians begin the next phase of the war. The war will not end until the Russians are beaten so badly that there is no acceptable way to continue the war. Ukraine (and it's neighboring countries) understand this; the closest analogy I can come up with would be the French "Revanchist" policies regarding Alsace-Lorraine from 1871 through the First World War, in which France crippled it's position in Central Europe and ultimately sacrificed an entire generation of young men to regain them."
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 04, 2023, 09:34:11 AM
Just trying to squeeze one honest answer out of Eagler.
If there is some easy plan to end the war that doesn't just incentivized Putin to go on to Romania, Poland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, and Finland, then I'd sure like to hear it.
I have a plan to end the war tomorrow. Russia packs up and slithers right back across the border to their own territory.
Does anyone claim that wouldn't end the fighting tomorrow?
THAT is how you end the war. Not appeasement.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: rabbidrabbit on October 04, 2023, 09:40:55 AM
I get what you are doing, I'm pointing out that the methodology tends to get threads locked.
I'm trying to explain that from the Uke perspective, the Russians are doing the very things they are talking about every night on state tv and that gives no good man a choice but to fight until that ideology of Russian society fails to the point where a real peace is possible. Saying it is up to the US to force the Ukes to surrender before is appeasement in Russian eyes and will likely result in continued Russian aggression. The narrative is from Russian IO which pushes that talking point to western facing audiences to undermine western support while at the same time they are all in on genociding the Uke population to take back "their" lands.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 04, 2023, 09:47:16 AM
I have a plan to end the war tomorrow. Russia packs up and slithers right back across the border to their own territory.
Well, I presume we all agree more or less in that. Question is how to make it happen. I'd be happy to refresh old skills and look at tsar Putain through an optical sight, attached in some .338 Lapua Magnum hardware. Even Executive Order 11905 exists, as it does not effect me. And there are lots of violations against it for sure, just not published.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Eagler on October 04, 2023, 10:47:04 AM
I would first ask for representation from both sides to sit down somewhere and start talks
I have no idea what the peace plan would look like at this point..no one honestly does..they know what they think it should be
If it doesn't start - it will never end
I think it's up to Ukraine not the rest of the weapons supplying globe to make that call
Eagler
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: rabbidrabbit on October 04, 2023, 10:53:29 AM
I would first ask for representation from both sides to sit down somewhere and start talks
I have no idea what the peace plan would look like at this point..no one honestly does..they know what they think it should be
If it doesn't start - it will never end
I think it's up to Ukraine not the rest of the weapons supplying globe to make that call
Eagler
You don't think both sides are fully aware? They obviously are and so far way from having a serious conversation that neither feel it's worth the effort to continue. This is a rather naive statement unless I'm missing something.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 04, 2023, 10:57:32 AM
Well, I presume we all agree more or less in that. Question is how to make it happen. I'd be happy to refresh old skills and look at tsar Putain through an optical sight, attached in some .338 Lapua Magnum hardware. Even Executive Order 11905 exists, as it does not effect me. And there are lots of violations against it for sure, just not published.
As a non-US citizen you are of course not bound by our laws.
But I wouldn't bother though. At some point the Oligarchs who used to enjoy making a lot of money are going to do it for us. They don't care about the hardliners old Soviet ideas. They just want to be able to Travel to Caen in their yachts again.
Even if Russia rolls up Ukraine tomorrow and hangs Zelensky, nothing changes. We simply shift to supporting the Resistance. Every Uke collaborator get burned alive with their family the second the Russian column leaves town. They don't have enough troops to be everywhere simultaneously. Every granny with a 3rd story window gets a 50 cal sniper rifle to keep in the office. Every barn would have a stack of Stingers and Javlins. Any convoy in the country gets lit. Every drunk Russian that stumbles out of a cafe to take a whiz ends up with his throat cut. Russian commanders are located with our ElInt and marked for the Resistance so they can car bomb them.
It will go on and on and on and on until Russia has had enough and crawls back across the border with it's tail between it's legs.
I was serving at the time and remember watching on the dayroom TV as the last Russian tank rolled back across the bridge from Afghanistan to Mother Russia. As soon as they got tired of bleeding.
And all that time we continue to crush their economy out of existence. The sanctions will continue forever until they withdraw. Sooner or later they will be eating their own infants for food.
You don't think both sides are fully aware? They obviously are and so far way from having a serious conversation that neither feel it's worth the effort to continue. This is a rather naive statement unless I'm missing something.
You're right. Ukraine demands all its territory back before any negotiations and Putain will not talk before he has all Donbass and Krim officially recognized by international community as parts of russian territory. Catch 22.
At some point the Oligarchs who used to enjoy making a lot of money are going to do it for us. They don't care about the hardliners old Soviet ideas. They just want to be able to Travel to Caen in their yachts again.
This is one possible option. Another one is repeat of 1917, when previous tsar expired. Putains best before date is getting closer.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Lazerr on October 04, 2023, 11:30:17 AM
This isn't going to end well either way.
My hunch is some "freak accident" comes up, and things go the nuclear route.
Or we stop funding Ukraine and they eventually are overrun. I don't want that to happen, but I have a lot more interest in my country, family. How long can you really keep pumping money into it without ANY type of return?
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Shuffler on October 04, 2023, 12:18:40 PM
My hunch is some "freak accident" comes up, and things go the nuclear route.
Or we stop funding Ukraine and they eventually are overrun. I don't want that to happen, but I have a lot more interest in my country, family. How long can you really keep pumping money into it without ANY type of return?
.... or russians run out of victims to send to the front. :D
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 04, 2023, 12:19:33 PM
Watch out lazer America first is pro Russia to some here...
Who will run out of men to throw into the meat grinder 1st?
I have no idea of the causalities on either side but it must be horrific.
How many would send Americans into Ukraine today? CptTrips is ready it sounds like...
I think it's an event that stirs us into action if that becomes inevitable ... seems headed that way to me
Eagler
Your assumption of "America first" is isolationism. Most who believe "America first" don't because they understand that power vacuums get filled by less desirable options such as China. I have not seen anyone, especially not me be in favor of sending US troops to combat. Enabling UA to defend itself with mostly second and third tier gear is letting them put their lives on the line to defeat Imperialism so we don't have to when appeasement predictably fails.
It's a shame you two are going to get the thread locked because the same conversation could be had professionally.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 04, 2023, 12:46:19 PM
Your assumption of "America first" is isolationism. Most who believe "America first" don't because they understand that power vacuums get filled by less desirable options such as China. I have not seen anyone, especially not me be in favor of sending US troops to combat. Enabling UA to defend itself with mostly second and third tier gear is letting them put their lives on the line to defeat Imperialism so we don't have to when appeasement predictably fails.
It's a shame you two are going to get the thread locked because the same conversation could be had professionally.
He wants it locked. It's his only escape. He realizes he is in the wrong and has no argument that will hold water, so he starts lying about what people have said to get a lock before he is made further fool of.
Next he'll tell me to jump on a plane and go join the front myself. It's his usual tactic.
It shows he knows he is in the wrong and needs a way to save face. Getting the thread locked is his escape hatch. Wait for him to bring up ... senility if nothing else works.
Don't try and lie about my stated position or expect a response. There can be no honest discussion if he is going to lie about my position.
My whole point is stopping Russia in Ukraine and degrading their military to the point it can't shift to Baltic States or Finland so that American soldiers DON'T have to end up shooting at Russians.
Weakness only encourages the aggressor.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: rabbidrabbit on October 04, 2023, 12:54:18 PM
He wants it locked. It's his only escape. He realizes he is in the wrong and has no argument that will hold water, so he starts lying about what people have said to get a lock before he is made further fool of.
Next he'll tell me to jump on a plane and go join the front myself. It's his usual tactic.
It shows he knows he is in the wrong and needs a way to save face. Getting the thread locked is his escape hatch. Wait for him to bring up ... senility if nothing else works.
Don't try and lie about my stated position or expect a response.
If you both agreed to give the winning an argument on the internet a pass you would break the cycle. Between that and valuing opinions more than facts lots of good discussions get lost.
So yes, you have a point with that but to what end beyond getting another thread locked?
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 04, 2023, 01:01:14 PM
I would first ask for representation from both sides to sit down somewhere and start talks
Perhaps you don't remember how Putin was begged not to roll tanks over the border for months.
Perhaps you don't remember how a Regional Security Conference was offered to address their concerns and find some way from European states to feel secure without Russia feeling threatened.
However certain things like the disbandment of NATO are of course off the table. But NATO is no threat to a Russia that stays within it's own borders.
Or perhaps you do remember and it's not convenient to mention?
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 04, 2023, 01:03:49 PM
So yes, you have a point with that but to what end beyond getting another thread locked?
Speaking the truth requires no further motivation.
He stated I wanted to send American troops to Ukraine and I have never made any such statement.
Do you like it when people lie about you?
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Lazerr on October 04, 2023, 01:54:32 PM
If America was well off, mentally, and politically. I'd be Pro help anyone that needs it. We aren't. The political scene here is a bunch of clowns throwing mud at eachother over money and control. We don't need another country to take us out, we can rip eachother here apart with agendas and fake news.
What's going to happen when China invades Taiwan? $12.00 milk?
I think most of us here are at the agreement that this Ukrain shizshow is due to territory and resources. It's too bad we can't offer Russian residents 100k a family to another country to just get out of there, and wipe that place off the map.
This idea these communists have with "hey, we kind of want that let's fight over it" is mind blowing to me. I know assassination isn't legal, but none of the garbage these politicians do is anyways. If we are so apt to lie about everything on a global cause, why not do it for probably the best possible outcome of billions of people.
Find out where these communist nutjobs are at, at an inconvenient time, and smoke them. (How exactly idk) Next in charge pulls back Russia out of Ukraine, or things start popping out of the water in that neck of the woods.
It's really a sad situation. But this seems like the kind of weed that needs to be taken at the root.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Lazerr on October 04, 2023, 01:59:35 PM
Let me add, if I Russian individual or family that doesn't really go along with what's going on over there, I'd be thinking about ways to get out. I don't really know what their border security is like. Maybe a nice 3 day hike through the woods.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: rabbidrabbit on October 04, 2023, 02:00:31 PM
Speaking the truth requires no further motivation.
He stated I wanted to send American troops to Ukraine and I have never made any such statement.
Do you like it when people lie about you?
Of course not. Like I said, you do have a point there and other places. All I'm saying is thread after thread with good conversations get closed here for reason. You guys could both do this on other forums like Ice Cream without the moderation outcome or stay within bounds here. You are both electing to stay here and consistently operate outside of bounds. Hopefully you see my point.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 04, 2023, 02:23:54 PM
I know assassination isn't legal, but none of the garbage these politicians do is anyways. If we are so apt to lie about everything on a global cause, why not do it for probably the best possible outcome of billions of people.
It is better to make life unbearable for the Oligarchs and let one of them do it eventually.
Heck most Oligarchs would prefer to live in London and Paris anyway. They will eventually tire of Putin interfering with their making of money with no apparent benefit.
If I could advise the Ukes I tell them to not attempt breakthrough. I'd tell them to hold the line and wait while Russia's economy crumbles. Take no unnecessary risks but continually look for opportunities to use advanced weaponry to achieve outsized kill opportunities on the Russians. Cut off their supplies and let them starve. Cut off water to Crimea. Blow the bridge some more. More drone attacks on the Black Sea Fleet. Bleed them, bleed them, bleed them. And pin them while their economy crumbles. Minimize your loses while looking for every chance to maximize theirs. Keep assassinating their top commanders.
Like the Russians were bled to death in Afghanistan. (But back then we had Reagan to stand up to them instead of the appeasers we have now who just want to give Putin anything so he doesn't get angry.)
But that is hard for them when friends and family are behind Russian lines getting raped and tortured and murdered and their children getting stolen and shipped off never to be seen again. It's hard to be patient in those circumstances.
BTW, it worked once before. We held off WWIII for 50 years while we ground them down until their political structure and economy collapsed from the strain. It's a proven technique.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Eagler on October 04, 2023, 02:37:28 PM
Not sure where in this thread I crossed a line as it was not my intention
I was just hoping for the insight from those physically and emotionally closer to this mess thanks gas teddy, fd ski, rabbidrabbit
I know CptTrips thoughts, they haven't changed on this.. he enjoys the name calling..what can we do..
It is hard to discuss Ukraine in a vacuum as it is involving so many things these days
Here is hoping for the end of the killing sooner than later
Peace ✌️ out
Eagler
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 04, 2023, 02:39:52 PM
It is the next logical step seeing your level of support for Ukraine..
So what you are saying is, in fact, I have never suggested sending American troops to Ukraine. Glad you've decided to finally tell the truth.
If I had, you would provide the link.
I have never vaguely insinuated such. It has been explained to you again and again, the exact goal is to stop Russia in Ukraine so it doesn't end up with American soldiers getting shot at in Romania, or Poland, or Lithuania, or Latvia, or Estonia, or Finland as we will be treaty obligated to defend directly.
It's better to fight Russia in Ukraine indirectly than in NATO countries directly. Because one puts American soldiers in the battlefield and the other does not.
Will you then argue that we shouldn't defend NATO? Will you come up with all the same arguments about how it is all corruption and let Europe handle it?
Would it help America's standing in the world to show all we will bail on a treaty the second it becomes inconvenient?
Would that help us or hurt us in forming future alliances that we need?
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: rabbidrabbit on October 04, 2023, 03:10:00 PM
It is the next logical step seeing your level of support for Ukraine..
Guessing here but I think they run out of men before Russia does..
Who will use the weapons they are receiving from other countries then?
Sorry if that got your pannies in a wad lol
Eagler
You make a very large amount of assumptions regarding what is happening and what other people think. If you want to understand something you need to let your ass-u-me's go and look at the situation from all perspectives and then apply critical thought to cut through the propaganda instead of being stuck in confirmation bias of the propaganda that is most convenient.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Meatwad on October 04, 2023, 06:53:53 PM
I would say assassination is what it boils down to..
Bet we could pay enough for this to happen is we truly wanted it to
Instead we watch Ukraine turn into a smoldering crater we will then throw billions at to rebuild
A country no one here could even locate on a map before 2021..
Eagler
I bet if the USA could have a secret meeting with wagner or some similar group over there and say we will pay them $10 billion if they kill off putin, wait and see how fast he disappears.
Watch out lazer America first is pro Russia to some here...
To some people.....people putting america first, following the constitution, and showing proper correct allegiance to the US flag are seen as evil as domestic terrorists and are trying to "brainwash" everyone else
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 04, 2023, 07:08:25 PM
To some people.....people putting america first, following the constitution, and showing proper correct allegiance to the US flag are seen as evil as domestic terrorists and are trying to "brainwash" everyone else
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Tracerfi on October 04, 2023, 08:53:57 PM
To some people.....people putting america first, following the constitution, and showing proper correct allegiance to the US flag are seen as evil as domestic terrorists and are trying to "brainwash" everyone else
"America First" was the slogan of the American Nazi party in the 1930s. If the shoe fits.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Eagler on October 05, 2023, 07:11:46 AM
Thread was about the latest comments out of Poland...and thanks for those responses.
It is now drifting....
Best of luck for all going forward
You all should know my thoughts on this latest war by now..no sense in continuing that regurgitation...
Have a fantastic day!
Eagler
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 05, 2023, 09:56:07 AM
When ever I see the term regarding "isolationism" as they call it for pro Americans who want America to do better. I usually refer to that as "we should still continue to rob Americans by any means necessary to support the world and their failing economic policies." I simply cannot understand why these people think our money deserves to be theirs. I think most of us are tired of China reaping the benefits of our manufacturing gross incomes for American companies running away from our bloated regulatory system.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 05, 2023, 10:30:24 AM
When ever I see the term regarding "isolationism" as they call it for pro Americans who want America to do better. I usually refer to that as "we should still continue to rob Americans by any means necessary to support the world and their failing economic policies." I simply cannot understand why these people think our money deserves to be theirs. I think most of us are tired of China reaping the benefits of our manufacturing gross incomes for American companies running away from our bloated regulatory system.
Your definition of isolationism is not in any way like what I and pretty much everyone else uses. Perhaps that is the root of of your confusion. Being pro America means for a better, stronger America and not your abstract globalism usage.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: LCADolby on October 05, 2023, 10:53:11 AM
Could you please tell what agreements have been broken by Ukraine or NATO? If you mean "NATO will not expand to east"-agreement, there was never anything like that, no one single paper, document, treaty or contract. If someone verbally told russians NATO has no plans to expand, that is not a valid contract. And russia has shown how much it respects even signed ones, like that made 1994.
What was the treaty between Ukraine and Russia in 1994? On December 5, 1994 the leaders of Ukraine, Russia, United Kingdom, and the United States signed a memorandum to provide Ukraine with security assurances in connection with its accession to the NPT as a non-nuclear weapon state. Someone broke that and it was not Ukraine. And that treaty has something to do with the fact USA and UK are more than eager to end the conflict. But not the way tsar Putler wants.
The agreement was written in the first sentence of which you quoted, had you taken the time to read what I had posted you may have noticed that.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 05, 2023, 01:28:19 PM
Your definition of isolationism is not in any way like what I and pretty much everyone else uses. Perhaps that is the root of of your confusion. Being pro America means for a better, stronger America and not your abstract globalism usage.
I feel the term is being used to label people incorrectly regarding their qualms related to the sellout and theft of American tax payers along with trade policies and regulations that aren't benefiting the US labor market.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 05, 2023, 01:34:13 PM
Here is a fun fact for the Kremlin Janes.
With every attempted mobilization, Russia has lost more educated technical talent through emigration than poor uneducated rural cannon-fodder that showed up for duty.
And given they left to avoid conscription, that tech talent is never coming back (without complete regime change).
I'm sure that will do wonders for the Russian economy for decades to come.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: fd ski on October 05, 2023, 01:49:38 PM
Eagler,
America First has a long and nasty history (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America_First_Committee).
Currently, slogan is associated with someone who admires Putin, expressed it on number of occasions and actively threatened Ukrainian government if it wouldn't support his political agenda. Based on those facts, one can logically surmise what is that person likely to do if they were to be in power again. He clearly showed that for him it isn't America First, it is only "me first". But then again, he might be megalomaniacal enough to identify himself as personification of USA.
But more important question is - what do we lose? Our current support is mostly out of storage which we would pay to utilize in couple of years. We're actually saving on maintenance and disposal costs. We're yet to send anything out of active service or anything that would decrease our own readiness levels.
What do we get in return? Russia is bleeding itself dry, it is clearly shown to be a paper tiger and we can start thinking about concentrating on China as Russia isn't a near peer in any sense of the word. Our industrial military complex is having a sale of the century as everyone knows that russian hardware is not very good, we're moving more and more industry back.
As harsh as it sounds, USA benefits out of this war. And before our local conspiracy theorists arrive, so does everyone else ( other then russia). Nobody provoked Putin, he made that choice and now he is ripping the consequences.
You said that it is a long war and you are concerned about loss of life. Fair enough. Would you give up ? If the Red Dawn scenario arriveed, would you be ok with giving part of the country to the invader, or giving it all? Isn't it better to die standing up rather then live on your knees? We, as Americans don't bow to anyone. You diddly with us, you get diddlyed. Well, Ukrainians aren't much different. They are just as proud, and we're helping a good cause. We're helping them to stand against odds. If they had too much victims, they will choose when to stop. But as long as they want to keep going, as long as they want to be free men rather then russian slaves, we owe it to them to help. It aligns with our principles and doesn't cost us much. Helping ukraine is very much putting america first.
Dmonslyr - get help please. I'm not sure how you arrived at that alternative reality, but it isn't healthy. World is not one big conspiracy, with masterminds and puppeteers. If you ever worked in any large project or company, you should observe that it is nearly impossible to organize people to do things in secret or for people to have same determination to a shared goal. Most organizations have hard time functioning day to day, doing any clandestine/far reaching/secretive/coordinated on global scale projects is simply impossible. It only exists in James Bond movies....
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 05, 2023, 01:55:58 PM
When ever I see the term regarding "isolationism" as they call it for pro Americans who want America to do better. I usually refer to that as "we should still continue to rob Americans by any means necessary to support the world and their failing economic policies." I simply cannot understand why these people think our money deserves to be theirs. I think most of us are tired of China reaping the benefits of our manufacturing gross incomes for American companies running away from our bloated regulatory system.
out of curiosity do tell what we need to do to america to do better.
semp
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Eagler on October 05, 2023, 02:47:52 PM
Just to confirm one last thing for me in this thread...
There is no one for American or UK boots on the ground in Ukraine correct? Our weapons are enough to get the job done.
I think that is what I hear here ...thanks !
Eagler
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 05, 2023, 02:58:20 PM
Just to confirm one last thing for me in this thread...
There is no one for American or UK boots on the ground in Ukraine correct? Our weapons are enough to get the job done.
I think that is what I hear here ...thanks !
Eagler
Correct.
Unless the Russians use tactical nuke, chem, or bio. We've told them if they do there will be immediate and direct NATO response and all bets are off.
Or NATO is attacked. I still wouldn't want boots on the ground in Ukraine. I'd want boots on the ground in Moscow stomping on the throat of the last Russian trying and crawl away from the battlefield dragging his intestines behind him to die alone and cold in the ruble.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 05, 2023, 03:09:03 PM
America First has a long and nasty history (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America_First_Committee).
Currently, slogan is associated with someone who admires Putin, expressed it on number of occasions and actively threatened Ukrainian government if it wouldn't support his political agenda. Based on those facts, one can logically surmise what is that person likely to do if they were to be in power again. He clearly showed that for him it isn't America First, it is only "me first". But then again, he might be megalomaniacal enough to identify himself as personification of USA.
But more important question is - what do we lose? Our current support is mostly out of storage which we would pay to utilize in couple of years. We're actually saving on maintenance and disposal costs. We're yet to send anything out of active service or anything that would decrease our own readiness levels.
What do we get in return? Russia is bleeding itself dry, it is clearly shown to be a paper tiger and we can start thinking about concentrating on China as Russia isn't a near peer in any sense of the word. Our industrial military complex is having a sale of the century as everyone knows that russian hardware is not very good, we're moving more and more industry back.
As harsh as it sounds, USA benefits out of this war. And before our local conspiracy theorists arrive, so does everyone else ( other then russia). Nobody provoked Putin, he made that choice and now he is ripping the consequences.
You said that it is a long war and you are concerned about loss of life. Fair enough. Would you give up ? If the Red Dawn scenario arriveed, would you be ok with giving part of the country to the invader, or giving it all? Isn't it better to die standing up rather then live on your knees? We, as Americans don't bow to anyone. You diddly with us, you get diddlyed. Well, Ukrainians aren't much different. They are just as proud, and we're helping a good cause. We're helping them to stand against odds. If they had too much victims, they will choose when to stop. But as long as they want to keep going, as long as they want to be free men rather then russian slaves, we owe it to them to help. It aligns with our principles and doesn't cost us much. Helping ukraine is very much putting america first.
Dmonslyr - get help please. I'm not sure how you arrived at that alternative reality, but it isn't healthy. World is not one big conspiracy, with masterminds and puppeteers. If you ever worked in any large project or company, you should observe that it is nearly impossible to organize people to do things in secret or for people to have same determination to a shared goal. Most organizations have hard time functioning day to day, doing any clandestine/far reaching/secretive/coordinated on global scale projects is simply impossible. It only exists in James Bond movies....
First of all, the guy you are referring to had 0 wars or global military chaos and conflict. Infact he also had 3 middle east peace treaties. He took out real terrorist cells. There was no war! And yet you are propagandized to think he will start one, even though it's happened under the current administration (cough cough)...
Secondly, Putin was provoked. You've been labeling him every name in the book for 7 years and claiming he hacked our election and blamed an entire presidential movement on Putin and Russia. Then the shady crap in Ukraine under his nose, and you act like the man doesn't have any intellegnece on what is actually going on, and you write it all off and shrug it all off and pretend nothing is going on and so of course they shook the bear too much and now it bit back. NOT UNDER THE OTHER GUY though, who you still make false claims about even though it all happening under this THIS GUY.
You seem to forget that there are "leaders" running things at a high level. Look at the Fed for example. Or look at the WEF tentacles, the EU tentacles, UN tentacles and how they all have this same agenda if you will. Klous Schwab came out and said he wants US highways to be Parks by 2030 LOL. Who do you think is funding this guy? You are naive if you believe that there isn't systems and organizations in play here trying to manipulate the world and culture. I feel bad that you can't see it.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: GasTeddy on October 05, 2023, 04:36:06 PM
The agreement was written in the first sentence of which you quoted, had you taken the time to read what I had posted you may have noticed that.
And if you had read Minsk Agreement, you might have noticed that separatists were more to blame.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: save on October 06, 2023, 08:46:52 AM
Putin have succeeded doing exactly what he wanted to avoid - a NATO expansion.
Finland is already a part of NATO due to Putin's aggression, and Sweden will probably join in short order, something that is needed tor NATO to protect the Baltic states in an Article 5 situation.
Sweden have re-militarized much of it's abandoned strategic points, Finland have always kept an eye on its big neighbor in the east and have kept its forces after the old cold war.
Not only did he increase the border against NATO with about 1000km, he also made the Baltic Sea pretty much a NATO lake.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 06, 2023, 10:31:51 AM
A Ruble is worth less than a US penny.
Let that sink in.
Eat it, Boris. And choke on it.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: GasTeddy on October 06, 2023, 01:21:24 PM
That's what I've asked from several Russophiles; If sanctions do not effect as you claim, why is rouble close to zero and intersts skyhigh? Shouldn't it be exactly opposite.
Country with biggest surface in the world, everything possible available from oil via minerals to taiga, enormously vast forests. Everything to make a country rich and wealthy. But already befor war, economy about same size than Italy.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Lazerr on October 06, 2023, 02:22:21 PM
Maybe we should move in, nice hop across the water from Alaska. South America, North America, New America.
It doesn't make sense.. but it you know what I mean :rofl
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 06, 2023, 03:00:16 PM
Country with biggest surface in the world, everything possible available from oil via minerals to taiga, enormously vast forests. Everything to make a country rich and wealthy. But already befor war, economy about same size than Italy.
What most people miss, including a lot of famous policy makers, is that you can have no sustainable, virtuous Capitalism without a strong tradition of rule of law. Contracts have to mean something to both parties or you can't do business. In fundamentally corrupt cultures, business can't function efficiently. For business to function efficiently, there has to be reliable, and most importantly, predictable rule of law. You can't function if you never know if some crony is just going to take all your stuff. You get invited to sell at a discount to a friend of Vlad. Or else.
Russia was pushed to soon by zealots into raw Capitalism before they has a stable government or reliable rule of law. So what you ended up with was not virtuous Capitalism, but a Kleptocracy run by a handful of Oligarchs. Russia is what you get when Capitalism turns malignent.
Frankly, I am not convinced they will ever work right. The West has over a thousand years of various forms of Democracy or limited Monarchy or Parliamentarism. Of rule of law over men.
The fundamental psychological framework of a Russian is that there needs to be a single strongman with unlimited power and absolute rule. They've never truly had anything else. I'm not convinced that deep down the society even wants that. Their culture does not have the same political DNA as Western Europe and America.
Mexico has the same problem. They should be dripping in wealth. But their entire culture has always been fundamentally based on corruption.
The difference in America is our country was formed by independent family farmers being granted autonomous plots that they and their decedents owned directly, importunity. Many of the colonies were private corporations with a Royal OK. ;)
In Mexico\South America land was granted by a King by Royal Decree. These were noblemen and Royal gov officials. There as no broad citizen egalitarianism. A vast landowner and everyone else was a slave. Mexico is what America would have been like if it had all been like the South based on a plantation economic system instead of flatter economic strata of thousands of small yeomen farmers.
The differences in the initial economic models had huge implications over our development over time. All the Spain based cultures in Mexico and SA just have a harder time getting to the First World status because of corruption. Plus we had the Magna Carta in our cultural history and Spain didn't.
Oh strayed off topic. Coffee and a puff will do that to you. ;)
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Eagler on October 07, 2023, 07:42:18 AM
This comment about Afghanistan sums up want I think will be said about this war when it's over..
" If you are ever feeling useless remember it took 20 years, 3 trillion dollars and 4 US presidents to replace the Taliban with the Taliban "
Eagler
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 07, 2023, 10:42:48 AM
This comment about Afghanistan sums up want I think will be said about this war when it's over..
" If you are ever feeling useless remember it took 20 years, 3 trillion dollars and 4 US presidents to replace the Taliban with the Taliban "
Eagler
Of course in both cases, we weren't the ones to start the hostilities.
You can thank Osama and Vlad.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: GasTeddy on October 07, 2023, 12:34:19 PM
Some places in this planet should just be cordoned off with high and thick wall.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 07, 2023, 03:27:59 PM
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 08, 2023, 11:02:16 AM
Waiting for Eagler to say Hamas needs to be appeased too.
Maybe Hamas was pushed into what it did?
Maybe NATO expansion is to blame? Or Nazi's in Israel?
Or will he suddenly realize aggression needs to be stood up against not appeased?
Or maybe Vlad and Iran are trying to start a fire elsewhere to draw attention and resources off Ukraine like Sadaam tried in GW1 with Scud attacks on Israel?
[Edit] It will be interesting to see how this all plays out and what kind of corner the appeasers are backed into with their logic.
If Russia's fingerprints end up on part of this, would that change your views about your second favorite authoritarian dictator?
Or would you just add Hamas to the list of those that should be appeased?
There are certainly a lot of questions to be asked.
“I served in the IDF 25 years ago in the intelligence forces.. there’s no way, in my view, that Israel did not know what’s coming…Something is very wrong here” https://twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/1710815659653804437
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 08, 2023, 01:19:21 PM
There are certainly a lot of questions to be asked.
“I served in the IDF 25 years ago in the intelligence forces.. there’s no way, in my view, that Israel did not know what’s coming…Something is very wrong here” https://twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/1710815659653804437
That's possible.
It crossed my mind that Netanyahu maybe have had warnings and intentionally not reacted in order to distract from his current legal\Constitutional troubles and whip up Nationalism to support him. That guy is a corrupt snake. I wouldn't put it past him. Wag the dog.
But that wouldn't excuse Hamas or Iran and possibly not Russia.
Would it?
So what should happen if evidence that Russian PMC's were involved in training and supplying Hamas terrorists? Putin has recently just admitted the PMC are simply just organs of the Russian government. Would that change any of your views about Putin?
I am for the killing to stop and the peace process start
Seems we are in the killing mood everywhere these days
The world sure is a different place in the last 33 months
Eagler
The thing I am not convinced you are intellectually capable of grasping is, the is NO possible peace treaty with people who want you dead or want to take your country and make it their property.
There is only a rearmament period.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Eagler on October 08, 2023, 02:49:14 PM
With hamas that has been the case
Too early to tell in Ukraine imo
Why the continuous lame attempts at personal insults .. are you not capable of a conversation without that?
It doesn't help your case imo
Eagler
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 08, 2023, 02:57:43 PM
Why the continuous lame attempts at personal insults .. are you not capable of a conversation without that?
Because weakness plays into the hands of Evil. Dictators have always relied on the "Useful Idiots" in the West they can feed propaganda to and know they are ripe to believe it if it can be tailored to their existing bias and self-narrative. They are always trying to get the West to surrender and convince everyone that it only has itself to blame for a dictators(terrorists) aggression. It's always blame the victim and excuse the perpetrator. The dictator is always the real victim. If they can blame it all on the US government then they are all in.
It sounds so familiar on so many levels.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Eagler on October 08, 2023, 03:18:20 PM
What does that have to do with anything?
Sometimes it sounds like you get your rocks off on supporting war imo
There's an "evil" for you
Eagler
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 08, 2023, 03:21:24 PM
Sometimes it sounds like you get your rocks off on supporting authoritarian dictators.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Eagler on October 08, 2023, 03:53:01 PM
That's funny as I have not expressed my support for anyone or anything but peace
Enough back and forth with you..not the reason I started this thread
Our whining is trivial to the fact the globe is quickly catching fire
Eagler
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: GasTeddy on October 09, 2023, 01:43:35 AM
That's what we need now, WW III. Absolutely. Or few billion gigaton meteorite. I prefer the latter. R.I.P, dinosaurs.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Eagler on October 09, 2023, 07:17:52 AM
Not sure how Israel missed an operation with a scope so large..
Or they didn't miss anything and now appreciate the opportunity for revenge
The world is a sick place
Used to think it was a nice place with a few bad players but now thinks it's a crap show with just a few good souls
Eagler
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: LCADolby on October 09, 2023, 08:50:16 AM
And if you had read Minsk Agreement, you might have noticed that separatists were more to blame.
This is why you must never make such an oversight, I makes anything you say worthless. All those Shells falling on the Ukrainian East civilian population for months and months were not from the Separatists Who knows what else you're missing. In fact you're cooked and irrelevant in 2 exchanges..
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: fd ski on October 09, 2023, 10:13:51 AM
This is why you must never make such an oversight, I makes anything you say worthless. All those Shells falling on the Ukrainian East civilian population for months and months were not from the Separatists Who knows what else you're missing. In fact you're cooked and irrelevant in 2 exchanges..
Can you share some reputable sources on those casualties ? Separatists ? Same ones who happen to be armed with Russian army tanks and Sams to down airliners with ? Spontaneous types, ain't they ?
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: fd ski on October 09, 2023, 10:21:26 AM
Because weakness plays into the hands of Evil. Dictators have always relied on the "Useful Idiots" in the West they can feed propaganda to and know they are ripe to believe it if it can be tailored to their existing bias and self-narrative. They are always trying to get the West to surrender and convince everyone that it only has itself to blame for a dictators(terrorists) aggression. It's always blame the victim and excuse the perpetrator. The dictator is always the real victim. If they can blame it all on the US government then they are all in.
It sounds so familiar on so many levels.
Give Eagler a break. He's a good guy. He's been issued bunch of weird info, packaged in good intentions and at least he's asking questions without being an a....le about it. If you want to make an impact, educate him. Insulting him does nobody anything good.
Eagler, nobody in UA wanted the war. If Russia was to withdraw from their territory, war would end right there and then. All the bs floating around about "there is no such nation as ukraine, this has always been russia, people are russian just nazis control them, blah blah blah" is just that. BS. Russia wants to rebuild its empires. Mafia running the country distracts its populace from ever present poverty by giving them "we're powerful and fighting" line, and historically this always worked well in russia. In 2014 they did the same thing that they did in Azerbejdżan, Georgia and Modlova. Annexed portion of independent nation creating puppet state, unrecognized by anyone, controlled by russian army. Goal is simple - destabilize remaining nation, leave door open for invasion down the road, create excuses.
Putin is getting old and he wanted to put a crowing touch on his legacy. Instead he killed thousands and destroyed russia. No matter how the war ends, things will never be the same. And there is only one side at fault. There is no "secret agenda" here. Yes, lot of people are benefiting from it, but it wouldn't have been possible if he hasn't pulled the trigger.
He's also the only one who can make it stop. It only takes one sentence.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: LCADolby on October 09, 2023, 11:58:41 AM
Can you share some reputable sources on those casualties ? Separatists ? Same ones who happen to be armed with Russian army tanks and Sams to down airliners with ? Spontaneous types, ain't they ?
There is always that CNN reporter that interviewed a survivor and how he "no longer sees them as our countrymen". Ukrainian on Ukrainian.
Airliner in the same breath, come on my guy.. The Taliban are currently supplied with US Military arms. Lets go round and round until we are dizzy.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 09, 2023, 12:02:23 PM
If you want to make an impact, educate him. Insulting him does nobody anything good.
There is no education possible. He has all the information in front of him we all do. It is a simple moral choice not an information issue. The facts have painstakingly been pointed out to him multiple times. He prefers the Kremlin position. I have no patience for those who intentionally choose Putin over America and the West.
He and DmonSlayer choose Putin's talking points over obvious right and wrong. They are actively and intentionally amplifying and advancing Kremlin talking points. They are acting as foreign agents whether they know it or not.
Same choice as when Hitler invaded Poland in 1939. Resistance or appeasement.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: GasTeddy on October 09, 2023, 12:34:00 PM
This is why you must never make such an oversight, I makes anything you say worthless. All those Shells falling on the Ukrainian East civilian population for months and months were not from the Separatists Who knows what else you're missing. In fact you're cooked and irrelevant in 2 exchanges..
Thank you very much for your intelligent expert analysis. With how many Ukrainians have you been talking with? Do you know anyone who was there then? In what resources (except russian ones) you found all that info?
I happen to live not so far from that area. I happen to know people who lived there. I happen to know people who fought there. But of course, they all lie. All those russian speaking Ukrainians, who live nowadays in my hometown and escaped their liberators, they all invent stories. Truth is in russian pravda, ruski mir and novorossia from Vladivostok to Iberian peninsula.
May everyone become blessed in his faith. I trust more eyewitness stories.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 09, 2023, 12:38:34 PM
There is no education possible. He has all the information in front of him we all do. It is a simple moral choice not an information issue. The facts have painstakingly been pointed out to him multiple times. He prefers the Kremlin position. I have no patience for those who intentionally choose Putin over America and the West.
He and DmonSlayer choose Putin's talking points over obvious right and wrong. They are actively and intentionally amplifying and advancing Kremlin talking points. They are acting as foreign agents whether they know it or not.
Same choice as when Hitler invaded Poland in 1939. Resistance or appeasement.
That is an incredibly false statement. And once again, one sided opinion acting an entire half of the globe."America and the west" aren't "one thing" they are different countries with their own constitutions and cultures. . I don't read any "Russian propaganda". I don't approach the issue on "everything the other country said is all BS". Especially after you and a bunch of folk claimed Russia stole the election for 45 and 45 is a Russian puppet, that's the real Propaganda that really pisses me off, to sow division in America BEFORE 2024 election and spend 100m on Mueller BS, so why TF should I trust anything these medias say about what is going on now? Especially when 46 had to threaten prosecutors over there for his sons actions BEFORE 45 was even president? That's the real crime pall. You all sit here and pretend there was nothing going on. It's just ridiculous. No, I don't trust "the west" because it's all just the "UN" who didn't do a damn thing to stop this war from even happening when Putin expressed his issues to the UN. I hate this type of grouping. It would then be "the west" who funded Covid. Imagine how that sounds. "The west killed tens of millions by funding covid research THAT DIDNT NEED TO BE FUNDED FOR ANYTHING. No, it wasn't the "west", it was a group of deranged people who funded that research and development. America is being embarrassed by this BS. I don't accept this as a "American position" to shrug off corruption within it for "the agenda". Screw that. America has NO RIGHT to be manipulating Ukraine with corruption, in a non Nato country of all places, right under Russia of all places, who has been disrespectful to Russia since 45 ran for president. Just like Russia had no right to build rockets in Cuba.
You're right, weakness does promote evil, that's why it's all happening under 46.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Eagler on October 09, 2023, 01:08:06 PM
Thanks again for your insight fd ski
CptTrips
Please seek help
Praying the killing stops before it can't be stopped
To mention assassination is against the law is laughable...didn't help the Iranian general that got a face full of drone a few years back..
(Psst CptTrips - I am not for Iran either)
Can anyone confirm if our $$ sent to Ukraine are actually paying salaries and pensions as some reports here state we are?
With 33 trillion in debt not sure how we can afford that if true...
Eagler
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: guncrasher on October 09, 2023, 01:17:17 PM
Praying the killing stops before it can't be stopped
To mention assassination is against the law is laughable...didn't help the Iranian general that got a face full of drone a few years back..
(Psst CptTrips - I am not for Iran either)
Can anyone confirm if our $$ sent to Ukraine are actually paying salaries and pensions as some reports here state we are?
With 33 trillion in debt not sure how we can afford that if true...
Eagler
you confusing assassinating world leaders to a military target. that salamander was responsible for many american lives. same as bid ladin, he was a leader but a military target.
semp
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 09, 2023, 01:34:41 PM
And that should include a complete withdrawal of all forces from Crimea and the Donetsk as well.
Then only thing left to negotiate then is reparations. At least if they are interested in ever seeing sanctions lifted.
All for that too
Not for bankruptcy or pushing into a nuclear conflict
Need a neutral 3rd party to start peace talks now imo
But it seems the globe wants war, death, misery... might be a financial rescue plan as mentioned already or the end of the world as we know it...probably both.
Eagler
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Eagler on October 09, 2023, 03:19:21 PM
And so it grows..hamas using US weapons against Israel
Comments are telling
Eagler
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 09, 2023, 03:25:49 PM
Not for bankruptcy or pushing into a nuclear conflict
They should have thought about bankruptcy before launching an illegal invasion. They are obligated to make Ukraine whole for the death and destruction they have inflicted on them since 2014.
Until they agree to that, it is clear they are not done being aggressors. Sanctions will remain. A non-violent incentive and effective over time.
You are going to have to man up. Evil doesn't ask your permission. This is like The Stand. Sides are dividing up.
One Axis: Russia, China, Iran and their underlings (i.e. NK, Hamas, assorted other assorted dirtbags)
The other: America and the Free Western World.
It's a time for choosing citizen.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Eagler on October 09, 2023, 03:38:39 PM
I wasn't speaking about Russia going bankrupt - I could care less- I was speaking about the United States in particular and its allies after that..
Your weird thinking again man...
Eagler
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 09, 2023, 04:04:52 PM
I wasn't speaking about Russia going bankrupt - I could care less- I was speaking about the United States in particular and its allies after that..
Your weird thinking again man...
Everything we have given to aid Ukraine is a tiny sliver of our military budget.
Mostly rotating out old stuff at it's use by date so we can replace with new stuff.
Time to spool up the arms manufacturing to full capacity anyway.
Ukraine is step one if not stopped, then expect Taiwan as step two. Mid-East\Persian war thrown in for a bonus.
Sing Kumbaya all you want. It won't make a difference. The choices will be submit to Russia, China, and Iran or fight.
Unless we utterly and completely crush Russia in Ukraine and Putin ends up on a meat-hook like Mussolini, and China and Iran decide they don't want any of THAT.
Because any weakness, any at all, will only encourage the aggressors further.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: LCADolby on October 09, 2023, 04:43:02 PM
Thank you very much for your intelligent expert analysis. With how many Ukrainians have you been talking with? Do you know anyone who was there then?
May everyone become blessed in his faith. I trust more eyewitness stories.
You're very much welcome. I've worked and conversed along side a Ukrainian, lived there all his life until he "broke.. his. head" (That's a direct pigeon English quote minus the accent) in combat against Russia. His family fled here to where I live and he had to wait about a year until he was able to escape also. Eyewitnesses are great especially when they have seen both sides. To paraphrase "It's no good what we are doing to each other".
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: TheBug on October 09, 2023, 07:10:04 PM
And so it grows..hamas using US weapons against Israel
Comments are telling
Eagler
Wonder which middle east country those came from? Almost like a huge stockpile of US weaponry was somehow left behind somewhere and it got found by the bad guys. Or the "good" bad guys that had them sold them to the "bad" bad guys for lots of $$$$
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: GasTeddy on October 10, 2023, 03:06:58 AM
You're very much welcome. I've worked and conversed along side a Ukrainian, lived there all his life until he "broke.. his. head" (That's a direct pigeon English quote minus the accent) in combat against Russia. His family fled here to where I live and he had to wait about a year until he was able to escape also. Eyewitnesses are great especially when they have seen both sides. To paraphrase "It's no good what we are doing to each other".
Thank you as well. So we both base our opinion on eyewitnesses stories. And still, IMHO Russia is much more to blame in this conflict. What I've been told, there were tension between people but serious violence was started by separatists, especially after "green men" showed up 2014. Even Alexander Borodai, Prime Minister of the self-declared Donetsk People's Republic, stated that 50,000 Russian citizens fought in the Donbas up to August 2015.
Wikipedia is perhaps not the most independent and neutral source of information but still much more reliable than russian sources and it summons up here happenings with Minsk Agreement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements).
But the conflict itself was initiated much earlier, little by little feeding folks with propaganda of nazis and satanists in Ukraine, just like those concentration camps run by Finns in Eastern Karelia. Camps, which soviets found no traces after war but suddenly they were found by Putins investigators 70 years later.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Eagler on October 10, 2023, 07:32:57 AM
Didn't it go south (bad) in Ukraine after 2014?
I don't think we can discuss that time period as it goes from war to more political but I thought that was the start of this as there has been fighting since then..
Also can any of the locals or eye witnesses state what the shape of Ukraine was before the invasion?
I was under the impression it was as corrupt as they come.
Like a little Mexico minus the Spanish speaking cartel..
But now it must be saved at all costs..
What am I missing?
Is it the Russians will take over the globe like 1930's Germany if they are not stopped?
I think that reason is losing steam among many...
Or is it just the next war we are supposed to get behind because we are told to or you are a Russian troll..
Like most other things lately, conform or you are silenced
Can we at least spend as much on our border as we do on Ukraines?
Can we try to keep our borders are secure as theirs?
Might help their war cause...right now many don't understand that discrepancy at all.
Eagler
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: artik on October 10, 2023, 07:49:52 AM
Not sure how Israel missed an operation with a scope so large..
Or they didn't miss anything and now appreciate the opportunity for revenge
It is same simple negligence like it was in Yom Kippur war likely. Probably there was lots of intel but it was ignored due to concept that Hamas tries to become governing organization and not a bloody murderers and terrorists,
It is our 9/11...
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Eagler on October 10, 2023, 08:32:31 AM
It is same simple negligence like it was in Yom Kippur war likely. Probably there was lots of intel but it was ignored due to concept that Hamas tries to become governing organization and not a bloody murderers and terrorists,
It is our 9/11...
I don't think the middle east will be the same when this latest action is completed..
It is setup for a long response from Israel
Curious to how far it will spread...Lebanon, Iran, etc...
The war on terror gets a fresh infusion of possibilities for everyone..
The hate is strong
Eagler
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: icepac on October 10, 2023, 09:34:01 AM
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 10, 2023, 09:36:15 AM
The war on terror gets a fresh infusion of possibilities for everyone..
And what is your solution Eagler? Appeasement?
Should Israel appease Hamas now? Should Israel appease Iran now? Is that what you'd like to see? You will reply you want "peace" but that is your dog-whistle for appeasement. Peace at any cost IS appeasement. Doing nothing is also appeasement.
Russia doesn't want to take over the world, but it wants to take over Romania, Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and Finland too if they get on a roll. The hardliners want to retake the Soviet geographical defensive choke points while they still have the demographics to pull it off. And they don't care about their casualties because they are betting on the Quisling Fifth Columnists Useful Idiots in the West to weaken the resolve to resist and they can out-bleed us with a higher pain tolerance. And there is always a supply to Useful Idiots in the West ready to serve them.
China doesn't want to take over the world, just Asia. Do you want China to take over Taiwan and 90% of the high end computer chip manufacturing? Would that make the world a better place? Would the world be a better place if China who gets to decide who gets computers and cell phones? What might they put in all those chips the allow the world to have? Backdoors maybe? It would take us a decade for the West to replace the Taiwan chip capacity. A decade of Chinese domination of the West? You want that?
Iran doesn't want to take over the world. It wants to destroy Israel and take control of the Mid-East and it's oil. Would that make the world a better place? A nuclear armed Iran with it's boot on the throat of the Western economies Able to dictate terms or they cut off the worlds oil?
Peace at any price isn't a durable peace. It's appeasement. It's submission. It's slavery.
I truly believe that you would have called for us to make peace with Nazi Germany. I truly believe that you would have blamed America First and said it was our fault that Japan attacked us, and called for us to make peace with the Empire of Japan. We had your type even back then.
When you say you want "peace", what you are really trying to say is you want appeasement. You want submission. You want the aggressors to win and the West to not fight back because in your mind America (especially the government) and the West are always the ones who are really at fault.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Eagler on October 10, 2023, 09:49:16 AM
No when I say I want peace I want peace
I want the leaders of the world to see the foolishness in their ways
I want ppl to see the foolishness of our leaders
I want a spiritual revolution that I guess is nowhere near
You are stuck on the word appeasement for some reason...while almost sounding crazed with the possibility of future and continuing growing war and death...
You must be beside yourself these days excited with all the possibilities
I was you in 2001, but I grew out of that way of thinking
Praying for peace here
Eagler
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 10, 2023, 10:00:03 AM
You're hiding behind the word "peace". What you are dog-whistling is appeasement. Let me prove it.
Should Russia be driven back out of Ukraine (including Crimea) and back to it's own borders? Should they be driven out by force if necessary even if the cost is high?
Yes or no?
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Eagler on October 10, 2023, 11:28:40 AM
How high is the cost?
I can't answer that until I know the answer to that
Questions for you..
Do you think Ukraine would have half the support it had/has (it seems to be waning ) from its European buddies if the United States wasn't involved?
Why is it a larger issue for the US than Europe?
Don't worry you will have your wars to cheer on..
Eagler
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 10, 2023, 11:57:55 AM
How high a cost are you willing to spend to defend NATO? Because that is the next target. The second you set a limit, they know how to manipulate you.
How high a cost would you be willing to pay for your freedom? Is there a price at which you would sell us out?
I'd say 20% of our military budget over two years sent as support and training would be enough to utterly obliterate Russian forces in Ukraine and stop them cold and push them out leading to Russia current government collapsing as well as the Russian economy. Stop popsicle-footing around. Abrams, F-16, enough ordinance to drown them in shrapnel from smart weapons. The sanctions are working. Their economy will collapse like the Soviets. With only 5% they are already likely to approach 400k casualties. Now double that, then double it again. 20% of our might would obliterate them.
If we are strong in Ukraine, we avoid fighting in NATO countries. You want peace? Peace can only be had through strength. Show the slightest weakness in Ukraine, and you guarantee war in Poland, Taiwan, mid-East. They are testing our resolve. Your first instinct is to show weakness. That guarantees a broader war.
Do you think Ukraine would have half the support it had/has (it seems to be waning ) from its European buddies if the United States wasn't involved?
Why is it a larger issue for the US than Europe?
I think many of the European have given a much larger percentage of their GDP in aid than the US.
Quote
Specifically, the Tracker lists a total of €156 billion commitments by all main European donors (EU and non-EU), compared to less than €70 billion by the US.Sep 7, 2023
I think we all know that when NATO comes next you will then make the argument of why are we supporting NATO? Why is that our problem? What about our problems?
Because that is the technique the Kremlin has taught you. Whether you realize it or not. Divide and conquer. Weaken and destroy from within.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 10, 2023, 11:58:16 AM
I don't know about yall, but I could certainly use some mean tweets right about now instead of all of this death chaos and destruction...
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Shuffler on October 10, 2023, 12:16:04 PM
All this time I thought Poland was where they taught pole dancers their craft.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 10, 2023, 12:16:30 PM
I don't think we can discuss that time period as it goes from war to more political but I thought that was the start of this as there has been fighting since then..
Also can any of the locals or eye witnesses state what the shape of Ukraine was before the invasion?
I was under the impression it was as corrupt as they come.
Like a little Mexico minus the Spanish speaking cartel..
But now it must be saved at all costs..
What am I missing?
Is it the Russians will take over the globe like 1930's Germany if they are not stopped?
I think that reason is losing steam among many...
Or is it just the next war we are supposed to get behind because we are told to or you are a Russian troll..
Like most other things lately, conform or you are silenced
Can we at least spend as much on our border as we do on Ukraines?
Can we try to keep our borders are secure as theirs?
Might help their war cause...right now many don't understand that discrepancy at all.
Eagler
I’m sorry but you act as if you haven’t read anything I wrote. One last time. > Also can any of the locals or eye witnesses state what the shape of Ukraine was before the invasion? Similar as all Warsaw pact countries were in 1990s when the wall fell. In 2014 they tried to outs their local equivalent of Lukaszenka ( see Kremlin puppet ) and that resulted in invasion by Russian army pretending to be “freedom fighters”. Russia took a huge slice of the territory and Crimea. This is when the war started. > I was under the impression it was as corrupt as they come. We can talk long hours about corruption scales, how mafia like corruption compares to corporate corruption in USA, but it is quite hard to measure. Yes, Ukraine was corrupt. The question is, does that mean they deserve to be invaded and occupied? Especially by far more corrupt country like Russia? Corruption does not negate their right to self-determination. This “UA was corrupt” argument is nothing more then distraction tactic. > But now it must be saved at all costs.. Far from all cost. If it was all costs, we would be lobbing nukes. 1.5 years after full blown invasion first US tanks are arriving at the scene. How do you figure all costs? Figures you see in “packages” are book value of stuff we mostly keep in reserve. Stuff we will likely never use and pay for its maintenance and disposal. If 1 old Bradley is worth 100k USD as aid, in reality is worth 0, even worst, it is a cost to maintain and dispose of at the later stage. So yes, number can be eye watering but they have very little to do with actual money.
> What am I missing? Logic. You’re being fed all those “honest questions” you listed above. Questions that were purposely framed to make you choose “USA or Ukraine”. And there is no such choice. We are not 1 iota less safe due to Ukraine help. We are safer as Russia is being attrited by someone elses blood. We will save money as Eu will likely no longer need to be staffed. If Ukraine wins the war, we can probably withdraw from Europe completely, as they will be armed to the teeth for centuries to come and guarding Russians. It’s a win win for us. > Is it the Russians will take over the globe like 1930's Germany if they are not stopped? Look at Bucha. Read history. Russian playbook is as old as tsarist regime. Army moves in, police after them. They round up everyone educated, skilled and in any way free thinking and those people disappear. See Katyn Forest for example. Once you remove inteligencia, you favor those who cooperate, ban local language and couple centuries later you can pretend it was yours all along. Read up on history of Crimea up until 1945. So yes, they need to be stopped. For moral reason as well as strategic ones. If we’re going to be that beacon of democracy and stuff, we need to support them. All functioning democracies today started as fragmented, corrupt regimes that improved overtime. No country started clean and “democracy” ready.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Eagler on October 10, 2023, 02:52:03 PM
Thanks again fd ski
I appreciate your patience as it does help me understand it
CptTrips is a waste of time sadly
Pretty sure my comments just like his here hasn't swayed anyone's opinions on this stupid bloody mess as he fears
Eagler
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: guncrasher on October 10, 2023, 03:15:42 PM
Thank you as well. So we both base our opinion on eyewitnesses stories. And still, IMHO Russia is much more to blame in this conflict. What I've been told, there were tension between people but serious violence was started by separatists, especially after "green men" showed up 2014. Even Alexander Borodai, Prime Minister of the self-declared Donetsk People's Republic, stated that 50,000 Russian citizens fought in the Donbas up to August 2015.
Wikipedia is perhaps not the most independent and neutral source of information but still much more reliable than russian sources and it summons up here happenings with Minsk Agreement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements).
But the conflict itself was initiated much earlier, little by little feeding folks with propaganda of nazis and satanists in Ukraine, just like those concentration camps run by Finns in Eastern Karelia. Camps, which soviets found no traces after war but suddenly they were found by Putins investigators 70 years later.
Wikipedia is wank (English-English for trash), get yourself on an OSINT.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: TheBug on October 10, 2023, 06:38:41 PM
Seems like a good thread to ask if anybody has read the book:
Likewar: The Weaponization of Social Media by P. W. Singer, Emerson T. Brooking
Sounds kind of interesting and was thinking of picking it up.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 10, 2023, 08:38:11 PM
Wikipedia is wank (English-English for trash), get yourself on an OSINT.
I still consider Wiki more reliable than russian newsfeed. And OSINT has its roots in US intelligent services like CIA, so isn't that possible they also spread Wikistyle misinformation..? ;)
Proposal: if you have VPN, put your location as Turkey and use translator to read russian (https://www.w3newspapers.com/russia/) news. What a heroic nation with nothing but goodness in it and everyone else is envious and tries to destroy them.
Pity all Ukrainians here seem to be propagandists, telling horror stories against the liberator and philanthropist tsar Putain. As well all the others who have been there.
I warmly recommend you to read the message of fd ski (https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,408139.msg5405232.html#msg5405232), just two posts before yours. Western propaganda?
Edit: link
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: LCADolby on October 11, 2023, 04:40:07 AM
I still consider Wiki more reliable than russian newsfeed. And OSINT has its roots in US intelligent services like CIA, so isn't that possible they also spread Wikistyle misinformation..? ;)
Proposal: if you have VPN, put your location as Turkey and use translator to read russian (https://www.w3newspapers.com/russia/) news. What a heroic nation with nothing but goodness in it and everyone else is envious and tries to destroy them.
Pity all Ukrainians here seem to be propagandists, telling horror stories against the liberator and philanthropist tsar Putain. As well all the others who have been there.
I warmly recommend you to read the message of fd ski (https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,408139.msg5405232.html#msg5405232), just two posts before yours. Western propaganda?
Edit: link
Agreements were made, agreements were broken, war began, everything is just bullshiit.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: fd ski on October 11, 2023, 06:00:46 AM
Agreements were made, agreements were broken, war began, everything is just bullshiit.
can you provide "nato won't expand" agreement in any form other then "this is what i understood from what you said" ?
While you're at it, elaborate on Budapest agreement where Russia guarnateed ukraine territorial integrity and how Russia kept up that particular agreement.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: LCADolby on October 11, 2023, 07:25:02 AM
You can search yourself if you want to. Why do I have to do all your thinking?
This is something I pulled up just now;
I searched "Minsk agreement 2014-15" in Youtube. Result 1;
After that, start looking into the reporting agency, are they credible, where's they're funding coming from, are they independent. I haven't done this with this video, but you should. I've lead you to water, I refuse to bash my head against a wall getting you to drink it.
I'd bet even if any and all source material I posted no matter how well sourced and credible would be declared "propaganda" and I'm not wasting my life with that. Look yourself, the tools are there.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Eagler on October 11, 2023, 07:52:16 AM
We are obviously the world's police even though the majority don't want us to be..
Thank goodness we have such bright and enlightened leadership to guide us through such dark times while they enrich themselves...and keeping us divided.
Eagler
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Chris79 on October 11, 2023, 08:38:32 AM
We are obviously the world's police even though the majority don't want us to be..
Thank goodness we have such bright and enlightened leadership to guide us through such dark times while they enrich themselves...and keeping us divided.
Eagler
It’s nice living in 350AD Rome, I suspect interesting times lay ahead.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 11, 2023, 08:56:50 AM
We are obviously the world's police even though the majority don't want us to be..
See. He's warming up to why defend NATO?
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: fd ski on October 11, 2023, 11:36:27 AM
Dolby, you asserted that NATO and Russia had an agreement not to expand east. Can you provide a proof of that or just a link to a movie about guy elected in Ukraine 20 years later ? How am I supposed to do my own research. If you post something as fact, you need to be able to back it up. Burden of proof is on you. I understand that you heard this "fact" in all sorts of videos. Tucker "russian asset" Carlson repeated that enough times. Problem is, it's bullcrap. Can you find a shred of proof or just point to people spreading that stuff ?
I'll give you an example how to discuss based on facts: Budapest memorandum. https://treaties.un.org/Pages/showDetails.aspx?objid=0800000280401fbb Text: Point 2
The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity of political independence of Ukraine......
Signed by president of Russian Federation.
Please explain what happened in 2014 and 2022 in context of above.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: artik on October 11, 2023, 01:37:45 PM
Sī vīs pācem, parā bellum - Is not getting old for 2K years...
Indeed.
"Only the dead have seen the end of war."
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 11, 2023, 03:02:56 PM
Cui bono?
Man, we all better hope that Russia and China had no possible part in facilitating the Hamas attack. Obviously there were no Russian or Chinese troops. But they better hope there are no support traces that can be found. If we do, we are now in the opening stages of a World War between The Axis of Evil Russia, China, Iran and their assorted collection of underling scumbags against America and the civilized West.
I wonder if at night as Vlad is sprinkling potato chips around his bed so no one can sneak in during the night and slit his throat, if he realizes just what he set in motion with his Ukraine adventure. May he die in pain and rot in Hell.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: LCADolby on October 11, 2023, 05:47:22 PM
Dolby, you asserted that NATO and Russia had an agreement not to expand east. Can you provide a proof of that or just a link to a movie about guy elected in Ukraine 20 years later ?
While I don't believe I have specifically said that in this thread, but that's the point you want to jump upon; US secretary of state James Baker made the agreement to Mikhail Gorbachev in 1990. That "NATO would not extend past the territory of East Germany". It was repeated by NATO’s secretary general Gesner(?) in a speech in May two months later ("As I said, NATO has no intentions of expanding to the east."), history within living memory. Go to Wikipedia if you're so inclined, it'll be there I'm not wasting my life doing your homework, I got my A already.
That video points to the Minsk Agreement and it doesn't surprise me in the slightest the significance of you overlooking it.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: LCADolby on October 11, 2023, 05:56:07 PM
Dolby, you asserted that NATO and Russia had an agreement not to expand east.
I went back over my posts, I did not assert this I only mention the Minsk Agreement But even so I address this in my previous post.. Please gentlemen, would you kindly start making sure you are not making these easy mistakes. You only harm your own arguments when you overlook, put words into others mouths and jump over rushing to get to the "gotcha" part of the discussion.
This sort of nonsense is why I wont be wasting my OSINT on you guys, you'd get banned/blocked in 2 comments. Skuzzy aint nothing compared to those guys.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 11, 2023, 07:52:37 PM
While I don't believe I have specifically said that in this thread, but that's the point you want to jump upon; US secretary of state James Baker made the agreement to Mikhail Gorbachev in 1990.
Do you have a written treaty agreeing to that?
Are you just accepting Putin's word?
Others in the room say different:
Quote
I was in those meetings, and Gorbachev has [also] said there was no promise not to enlarge NATO,
And if it did happen, which it apparently didn't, that agreement was with the Soviet Union which no longer exists. Treaties Rome signed with the the Celts is Britain in no way apply between the moderns states of Italy and UK.
Putin throwing a fit about his neighbors begging to join NATO is like the Crips and the Blood getting mad people want the join the Neighborhood Watch program to prevent crime.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 11, 2023, 08:02:52 PM
Quote
In the end, however, Gorbachev acknowledged the historical truth. In October 2014, in an interview with the Russian daily Kommersant , he stated unequivocally that “The topic of ‘NATO expansion’ was never discussed; it was not raised in those years [1989-1990]. I am saying this with a full sense of responsibility. Not a single Eastern European country brought up the issue, not even after the Warsaw Pact had ceased to exist in 1991. Western heads of state and government, too, did not raise it.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 11, 2023, 08:07:33 PM
Quote
Western leaders never pledged not to enlarge NATO, a point that several analysts have demonstrated.
Quote
What the Germans, Americans, British and French did agree to in 1990 was that there would be no deployment of non-German NATO forces on the territory of the former GDR.
Shock. Putin is lying and the Useful Idiots lap it up.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: GasTeddy on October 12, 2023, 01:35:20 AM
Also one thing about NATOs expansion; countries join in voluntary basis, they apply membership. NATO does not take members at gunpoint. Lately tsar Putler has been the best possible salesman of applications.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: fd ski on October 12, 2023, 02:27:01 AM
I went back over my posts, I did not assert this I only mention the Minsk Agreement But even so I address this in my previous post.. Please gentlemen, would you kindly start making sure you are not making these easy mistakes. You only harm your own arguments when you overlook, put words into others mouths and jump over rushing to get to the "gotcha" part of the discussion.
This sort of nonsense is why I wont be wasting my OSINT on you guys, you'd get banned/blocked in 2 comments. Skuzzy aint nothing compared to those guys.
I hate to say this but peace was already had at the Minsk agreement, ~Nato send in Boris Johnson afterward to torpedo the agreement and cause the war. Russians are doing what they are supposed to be doing. While I believe wholeheartedly that there should be no bloodshed, there is war for a reason; Because Nato and Ukraine forced this war breaking its agreements. Nothing can change that fact
Ok, in that case which agreement was NATO breaking did you allude to ? Minsk agreement it wasn't a part of ?
How do you feel about Budapest memorandum being broken by Russia in 2014 well before Minsk Agreement ? Any thoughts on that ?
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: LCADolby on October 12, 2023, 03:22:28 AM
This took 2 seconds, is some Mandela Effect weirdness going on?
Under Historical context; "Two days later, Genscher repeats the statement at a press conference with Baker in Washington: "As I said, NATO has no intentions of expanding to the east."[22]"
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: GasTeddy on October 12, 2023, 04:21:28 AM
Under Historical context; "Two days later, Genscher repeats the statement at a press conference with Baker in Washington: "As I said, NATO has no intentions of expanding to the east."[22]"
Wasn't Wikipedia exactly something not to trust? Is there some kind of IRA Olgino effect going on?
What you linked, that's verbally said, just like I wrote in one of my earlier messages. Where is signed agreement, contract, something like that? Politics do not work with verbal intentions, things have to be put on paper and signed by not intentions but agreeing participants. Even though, especially tsar Putler has shown he respects them as much as used toilet paper.
Let's then go to the meaning of word "intentions"; NATO has no intentions. An intention is idea that you plan (or intend) to carry out. If you mean something, it's an intention. Your goal, purpose, or aim is your intention. It's something you mean to do, whether you pull it off or not. You are clearly mixing words "intention" and "promise". They are two different words with different meanings. Nobody has said NATO has promised not to expand to east.
So, no intention means they do not plan it, but many things happen without planning. Tsar Putler made things happen by his intentions, which were to make neighbors his puppets. And that created actions, not just intentions. Actions totally opposite of his plans and that seems to seriously disturb his supporters.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: LCADolby on October 12, 2023, 05:03:02 AM
It's the same thing as when the Iron Curtain started going up; One side breaks his verbal contract and then the other guy goes, huh your word aint watermelon why would I keep mine. Verbal contracts are binding in many-a countries law. I'd bet that no leader wants to look like Neville Chamberlain signed paper in his hand, "Peace in our time", and then the next moment looking ridiculous.
"Shake my hand on a deal, and I'll never break my word. But get me to put it in writing, and I'll have my best team of lawyers looking for loopholes and ways to get out of it". I forget who said it
I do not support war, I do not support civilians being killed in this war, I do not support Vlad but this is the situation; Minsk Agreement agreed, Minsk agreement broken, last straw -> War Whether we like it or not, back someone into a corner eventually they come out swinging. If I step onto your property and you come out and tell me to leave, I say sure I've not intention to enter your house. The next hour you come out and I'm another step or two closer to your door, and you keep saying, please leave, everytime I make another step or two towards your door. You are eventually either be sat with me in your living room or a gun goes into your hand.
"It doesn't exist" they cry, "here it is" others say, You answer should be "Oh, now I understand" not "you used a source I trust, but it came from you therefore I don't trust it". But just as I thought, nothing would be good enough.. Gas, you trust wiki, said it yourself. You couldn't accept it and we have you wriggling to get out of it.
Fact/truth driven discussion is more constructive if harder to swallow, if you want an echo chamber go to social media.. I'm out, talk amongst yourselves.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: GasTeddy on October 12, 2023, 05:42:41 AM
It's the same thing as when the Iron Curtain started going up; One side breaks his verbal contract and then the other guy goes, huh your word aint watermelon why would I keep mine. Verbal contracts are binding in many-a countries law. I'd bet that no leader wants to look like Neville Chamberlain signed paper in his hand, "Peace in our time", and then the next moment looking ridiculous.
"Shake my hand on a deal, and I'll never break my word. But get me to put it in writing, and I'll have my best team of lawyers looking for loopholes and ways to get out of it". I forget who said it
Tell me where and when international politics and relations have been based in verbal agreement? Verbal agreement is binding in many countries, yes. Show me that piece of international law where something what someone has said is binding contract. Especially, when it's said in a speech.
Quote
I do not support war, I do not support civilians being killed in this war, I do not support Vlad but this is the situation; Minsk Agreement agreed, Minsk agreement broken, last straw -> War Whether we like it or not, back someone into a corner eventually they come out swinging.
Yes. Signed Minsk agreement broken by separatists. That's what was in Wiki, about what I wrote "Wikipedia is perhaps not the most independent and neutral source of information but still much more reliable than russian sources and it summons up here happenings with Minsk Agreement". And then someone said "Wikipedia is wank (English-English for trash), get yourself on an OSINT". Before quoting it as a reliable source of information... :rofl
Quote
If I step onto your property and you come out and tell me to leave, I say sure I've not intention to enter your house. The next hour you come out and I'm another step or two closer to your door, and you keep saying, please leave, everytime I make another step or two towards your door. You are eventually either be sat with me in your living room or a gun goes into your hand.
Who went to someone else territory, Ukraine, NATO or tsar Putler's russia? If you claim it was NATO, then you admit Ukraine and other former soviet satellites in your opinion belongs to russia.
Quote
"It doesn't exist" they cry, "here it is" others say, You answer should be "Oh, now I understand" not "you used a source I trust, but it came from you therefore I don't trust it". But just as I thought, nothing would be good enough.. Gas, you trust wiki, said it yourself. You couldn't accept it and we have you wriggling to get out of it.
So I'm wriggling when you say Wiki is rubbish and then quote it as a reliable source after I said it is not the most independent and neutral..? :x
Quote
Fact/truth driven discussion is more constructive if harder to swallow, if you want an echo chamber go to social media.. I'm out, talk amongst yourselves.
Understand your decision very well. I'd do the same if I was contradicting myself that much.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: GasTeddy on October 12, 2023, 05:53:52 AM
Deleted, double posting by accident.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Eagler on October 12, 2023, 06:03:27 AM
Question to fd ski/ gas teddy
Back to 20I4..
Some here think the US helped overthrow the elected officials because they were Russia friendly and replaced them with western buddies..
Was this not the case?
You do realize Ukraine had put a very bad taste in many mouths here due to it being in the news prior to the invasion as it tied to corruption of our government officials at the highest level...but we cannot discuss that here..please don't or they will lock it
Eagler
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: fd ski on October 12, 2023, 07:14:37 AM
Some here think the US helped overthrow the elected officials because they were Russia friendly and replaced them with western buddies.. Was this not the case?
This is a standard information, CIA is behind everything that isn't to liking of Russia. People of Ukraine didn't want to be a russian puppet, they rebelled. If you want to believe it was couple nazis paid by CIA, there is nothing i can say to convince you. Just square that with what is going on right now. If really it was just a CIA operation and whole country wanted to be russialike crap state, why is this war still going on? Who is fighting? How many people did CIA recruit ?
It makes no sense. And having lived though iron wall falling, i can assure that most people want good life for their families, and that's who west and democracy offers. East gives you slavery and watching your local oligarch screw you over.
Quote
You do realize Ukraine had put a very bad taste in many mouths here due to it being in the news prior to the invasion as it tied to corruption of our government officials at the highest level...but we cannot discuss that here..please don't or they will lock it
Why ? because some american politicans wanted to do business there ? Anywhere you go, there are american corporations. They are usually coming on coattails of USA politicians. What do you propose ? Ukraine should have banned US politicians from coming and talking ? You're blaming a victim.
I'm ignoring the substance of entire "biden peddling influence" issue here. 4 years of Trump administration and they didn't find or prove crap. Same administration that blackmailed country fighting for survival.... my bad taste in mouth relates to different party of this issue...
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: fd ski on October 12, 2023, 07:17:30 AM
Under Historical context; "Two days later, Genscher repeats the statement at a press conference with Baker in Washington: "As I said, NATO has no intentions of expanding to the east."[22]"
He said, she said. That's the reason why agreements are made in writing, signature and all that. Rest of it is hearsay.
so can we agree on the fact that there was no agreement and NATO couldn't break something that didn't exist ? We'll tackle Minsk agreements in next steps.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Eagler on October 12, 2023, 07:52:44 AM
Thanks fd ski
I mentioned nothing about a couple of Nazis but it does sound like the CIA probably assisted/enabled whoever wanted a regime change in 2014 imo
You are definitely overlooking the corruption in Ukraine with our then vp that many of us can't as it is pointing to additional corruption in our justice department here
But feel free to overlook whatever as I like you don't have definitive proof on any of it
Eagler
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 12, 2023, 08:06:41 AM
Under Historical context; "Two days later, Genscher repeats the statement at a press conference with Baker in Washington: "As I said, NATO has no intentions of expanding to the east."[22]"
As it was pointed out.... BY GORBACHEV HIMSELF!!!!!!! Are you saying Gorbachev lied and Putin is telling the truth?
that was referring to expanding into East Germany.
I've shown you the quotes of the people who were IN THE ROOM DURING NEGOTIATIONS. Including the leader of the Soviet Union HIMSELF! You prefer your Putin's disinformation.
There was no agreement to not expand NATO into other countries. None. Zero. It didn't happen. It was never discussed. As Gorbachev stated.
What was agreed was that non-German NATO troops would not advance into East Germany.
That is what Gorbachev himself said was agreed to. That is what Genscher and Baker were reffering to.
Please stop embarrassing yourself.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 12, 2023, 08:11:51 AM
Keep cheering your bloody wars on..when are you shipping out?
Keep swallowing Putin's load of talking points.
When are you migrating to Russia?
Though you probably wouldn't make any better of a Russian than you do an American.
Quote
They call their policy "accommodation." And they say if we'll only avoid any direct confrontation with the enemy, he'll forget his evil ways and learn to love us. All who oppose them are indicted as warmongers. They say we offer simple answers to complex problems. Well, perhaps there is a simple answer - not an easy answer but simple: If you and I have the courage to tell our elected officials that we want our national policy based on what we know in our hearts is morally right.
Probably the sort to send someone else out to die while thumping their chest in a self righteous frenzy.
Better than the scum who support Putin, China and Hamas. Even if they are too stupid to realize it.
That is why they are Useful Idiots. They are too stupid to realize their treason.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 12, 2023, 08:34:24 AM
I am absolutely for peace.
When the last Hamas\Hezbollah scumbag has been exterminated. When Putin is dead on a meat hook. When the Russian army turns East and marches back to their families in Russia. When China decides to keep their dirty greasy chopsticks off Taiwan.
Others idea of peace is to submit and let Putin, China, Iran and Hamas win.
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: Eagler on October 12, 2023, 09:23:15 AM
You're just another armchair general CptTrips .. a real tough guy for sure lol
You and your war mongering ways are what is wrong with the world
It is not a desire for peace as you weirdly try to state
Enjoy the bloodshed on both sides...especially the innocent ones who are caught it the crossfire of the war mongers
War might be necessary but should not be cheered on like it is some sick sporting event imo..
Eagler
Title: Re: Poland
Post by: CptTrips on October 12, 2023, 09:42:51 AM
You're just another armchair general CptTrips .. a real tough guy for sure lol
You and your war mongering ways are what is wrong with the world
It is not a desire for peace as you weirdly try to state
Enjoy the bloodshed on both sides...especially the innocent ones who are caught it the crossfire of the war mongers
War might be necessary but should not be cheered on like it is some sick sporting event imo..
Eagler
You're just another treasonous Quisling.
You're idea of peace is submission and slavery. You deserve neither peace nor security.
Enjoy burping up Putin's hot loads of disinformation you've been greedily swallowing.
The innocents caught in the crossfire want Russia the Hell out of their country. The innocents caught in the crossfire want Hamas destroyed. The innocents caught in the crossfire want China to stay in China and leave Taiwan alone. The innocents caught in the crossfire want Iran to go back to worshiping fire.
The whole world begged Putin not to invade.
It's hard enough to fight the enemy in front of them, but they also have to fight the traitors in the rear who have a knee-jerk instinct to lick the boot of every authoritarian strongman they see.
Quote
They call their policy "accommodation." And they say if we'll only avoid any direct confrontation with the enemy, he'll forget his evil ways and learn to love us. All who oppose them are indicted as warmongers. They say we offer simple answers to complex problems. Well, perhaps there is a simple answer - not an easy answer but simple: If you and I have the courage to tell our elected officials that we want our national policy based on what we know in our hearts is morally right.