To be PC, or not to be PC....

[mietla]

I am not missing the point. I understand your argument precisely, I just do not buy it. When I hire someone, I'm not asking him about his childhood, I'm grilling him on Computer Science and ability to think.

If AA gave Powell an edge of any kind, it simply means that somewhere out there, there is a white candidate that would be better. If Powell was better on his merits, he would not need AA.


The difference between us is that you reward an effort, I reward the result. Piano or not, I just don't care. The fastest dude wins.

Good enough is not the same as the best.

[midnight Target]

Nope... you missed it.

[mietla]

Just because someone disagrees with you, does not mean that you are misunderstood.

What have I missed?

Just what exactly AA did for Powell?

[lazs2]

subaru... I am tempted to say that you are a hypocrite that is to hypersensitive to be allowed to live amungst us humans...

"Then stop using "Jap" in your portrayals! You want to make the picture complete and start using "Kraut" for people and things German? How about "N*****" for black people? "Chink" for chinese people and things? "

I will and do use terms that you find offensive..  I foind nothing at all wrong with using "jap" or "kraut" in a friggin WWII sim....   In fact... I use the t6erms jap and kraut all today... I will say "jap car" or "kraut car"   or Kraut gun or jap or I have even been known to say "commie gun" or "okie"  I try to avoid working with or even being around people who take offense.

In the fifties those poor downtrodden japs were refered to as japs by us all the time.... "jap" is no worse in fact... way less worse than the terms the japs use for us..."Jap" is, after all, short for japanesse... what is it that you (japs) call us?   what was that again?   Hell... most of the adults didn't speak english and werent offended by the term jap (which was not meant by us to offend in any case) and we didn't understand japanesse so were not offended by their terms for us...

MT... it is ok to use the n word if you are one?   what a bunch of crap... good for one good for all.   PC and AA promote racism.  If I see a black person that is a supervisor (or even a woman) I figure the job was given to them and they most likely are incompetent.... The White guy overcame AA so he probly knows what he is doing.

lazs

[midnight Target]

It's not about how good they are now. It is about the opportunity to get good.

Justice Thomas has flat out said that without AA he would not have had the opportunity to attend the college of his choice. Does that make him less of a jurist? No.

[lazs2]

lots of very competent white people never got the opportunity to attend....  More now than before.   Opportunity should be handed out to those with ability and those who work the hardest regardless of race or gender.

AA hurts everyone... if you allow the least competent amungst us to have the opportunities then you are hurting everyone.

How do you know that the brighter white guy that got passed over for the less capable black guy was not destined to find a cure for aids or... sycle cell for that matter?

lazs

[mietla]

Originally posted by midnight Target
It's not about how good they are now. It is about the opportunity to get good.

No offense but this is just absurd. Of course it is. You want the job now, today, that minute. Potential is worthless until realized.

"You see Mr. Employer, I might suck right now, but give me an opportunity, and I will shine in a future".

Meantime someone who is shining aready is sent away. Of course for him it would be just down hill from now on.

Justice Thomas has flat out said that without AA he would not have had the opportunity to attend the college of his choice. Does that make him less of a jurist? No. [/B]

So , what if Thomas failed and never become a judge, some one else would take this place. Someone more qualified probably.

As I said, many people are qualified to do the job. I don't want to settle for good enough/qualified. I want the best. And the only way to determine that, is to remove all barrier and obstacles (pianos if you will), and let people shine on their merit.

For some reason you are saying that if Thomas didn't make the Supremes, the nation would be at a loss. Why? We still would have 9 Supremes.

And this from the guy who hates Thomas' politics

Again, Thomas' blackness does not contribute to the value of Supremes a lick.

[SOB]

Originally posted by midnight Target
It's not about how good they are now. It is about the opportunity to get good.

Justice Thomas has flat out said that without AA he would not have had the opportunity to attend the college of his choice. Does that make him less of a jurist? No.

I can't even believe you typed that.  Who gives a crap what their potential is?  Like Mietla has said repeatedly, it's not what their potential is, it's what their value to the job is.  The most qualified should get the job.  If that wasn't Powell or Thomas at the time, then they didn't deserve their positions.

[lazs2]

exactly....  Certainly we know that there are black people capable of great things...  There are also white people capable... How do we know that the white guy that thomas displaced would not have been the second coming?   Or, at the very least... A more competent judge?  

Is it not better for everyone if we have the best people given the opportunities to help us all?

The best doctors and scientiists and judges and generals and not necessarily the most ethnicly diverse?

Should we force sports to accept more whites or put more blacks on the swimming teams?

denying the people with the most ability is unjust.

lazs

[bullett308]

Colin Powell got to where he Is by being a good soldier.
There Is NO AA in the Army I assure you.
Everybody has the chance to move up based on there performance.
Atleast when I was in.

He Is where he Is now because he Is one  very smart man who used his brains to his advantage.

Now AA might of helped him get into a better college or something but It did not help him in his military career.

[SaburoS]

Originally posted by lazs2
subaru... I am tempted to say that you are a hypocrite that is to hypersensitive to be allowed to live amungst us humans...LOL, and you're not being sensitive because of a simple request to watch our language here out of respect of those here  (and in the future) that might be offended?  LOL, you whine about PC and AA being racist? So you want to still be able to refer to those different than you by racial epithets? Before you start throwing the "hypocrite" label, look in the mirror.

"Then stop using "Jap" in your portrayals! You want to make the picture complete and start using "Kraut" for people and things German? How about "N*****" for black people? "Chink" for chinese people and things? "

I will and do use terms that you find offensive..  I foind nothing at all wrong with using "jap" or "kraut" in a friggin WWII sim....   In fact... I use the t6erms jap and kraut all today... I will say "jap car" or "kraut car"   or Kraut gun or jap or I have even been known to say "commie gun" or "okie"  I try to avoid working with or even being around people who take offense.
My, how we hold on to excuses of using racial epithets because it used to be accepted. You didn't start using them because of this sim, by your own admission. It may be a WWII sim, but it is being played and enjoyed by a multicultural , worldwide audience where racial epithets are considered insulting and degrading. Gee, by all means continue in your crusade to be able to "rightously" use your labels, good way to help make a business grow! BTW, Skuzzy has warned that he doesn't take lightly being referred to as a "Kraut" (perfectly understandable, IMHO). Is he being oversensitive too? Racial epithets were used widely back in the WWII era . We are not in that era. Because you think it right does not make it so.

In the fifties those poor downtrodden japs were refered to as japs by us all the time.... "jap" is no worse in fact... way less worse than the terms the japs use for us..."Jap" is, after all, short for japanesse... what is it that you (japs) call us?   what was that again?   Hell... most of the adults didn't speak english and werent offended by the term jap (which was not meant by us to offend in any case) and we didn't understand japanesse so were not offended by their terms for us...
LOL, and this example is supposed to be a valid argument for using racial epithets?

MT... it is ok to use the n word if you are one?   what a bunch of crap... good for one good for all.   PC and AA promote racism.  If I see a black person that is a supervisor (or even a woman) I figure the job was given to them and they most likely are incompetent.... The White guy overcame AA so he probly knows what he is doing.

lazs

[SaburoS]

It is apparent that we are entrenched in our views. To continue to discuss this "AA" further serves no purpose. We all feel we know we're right and any further discussion won't change it. This thread started with the following (cropped to the essentials):

Originally posted by SaburoS
I have questions for those of you that feel a need to use racial epithets to get a point across:
1) Why?
2) Is this the sort of attitude and language you'd like to see our youth learn and mimic?
3) What on earth is wrong in being politically correct? You'd think it'd be a criminal act to see some responses!

I'm going to ask to please stop referring to other nationalities in such a derogatory way. It's unbecoming of civilized folk to talk/type that way.
Thank you.

I'm posting it again to get us back on track. I have no power over you to force you into anything, just a humble request. If you agree that racial epithets have no place here on this BBS, then thank you. If you believe that racial epithets are perfectly acceptable then by all means contiune on the way you have.
I thank you in any case for at least considering about it no matter the results. BTW, this is not a request of how one talks away from this game. Everyone feels they are right as do I. Seems nothing is going to change our minds.
Regards.

[bullett308]

I see no point in calling ethnic groups names.

The correct term Is Japanese.
That as far as im concerned is not asking to much.

As a Jewish American I can relate.
Kike or jewboy or hooknose jew would be offensive to me.

[mietla]

Ok, let's try again.

Originally posted by SaburoS
I have questions for those of you that feel a need to use racial epithets to get a point across:
1) Why?
2) Is this the sort of attitude and language you'd like to see our youth learn and mimic?
3) What on earth is wrong in being politically correct? You'd think it'd be a criminal act to see some responses!

I do not really feel the need to do that, so I'm not sure I'm "qualified to respond", but since I'm in this thread toenails deep, I'll answer anyway, FWIW....

1. I choose not to do it. I feel no need for it, and if this was your definition of PC, I'd be on your side. But, ... the minute you tell me I can't do it, I'll switch sides.  


Politeness  = voluntary civility
PC = an attempt to use the power of the state to impose your views on others.

2. A resounding... Of course not.

3. Everything. In a nutshell...

Politeness is a voluntary action.

Say,  you ask me, can you please refrain from addressing me as  Bob, I'd prefer Robert, instead. I'd be happy to oblige.

Say,  you ask me, can you please refrain from addressing me as  Robert, I'd prefer Mr. XXX, instead. I'd be happy to oblige.

Say,  you ask me, can you please refrain from addressing me as  Mr. XXX, I'd prefer Maestro, instead. I'd be happy to oblige.


See, everything is between us, you ask politely, I'll find a courtesy in me to oblige.

But...  the minute you drag the government in it, and your decry...

"All XXX poeple have to be addressed as YYY" my middle finger suddenly stiffens.

Politeness is a voluntary and conditional surrender of someone's rights made in order to make interaction between people (potential lifetime friends) easier and more enjoyable foe all.

PC is a totalitarian concept. It is an attempt to intimidate (like in, fine,  prison, loss of property, mafia style "insurance") free people, into hiding their real thoughts, and present the "government preferred" face instead. Never, ever I'll suport that.

[bullett308]

Originally posted by mietla
Ok, let's try again.



I do not really feel the need to do that, so I'm not sure I'm "qualified to respond", but since I'm in this thread toenails deep, I'll answer anyway, FWIW....

1. I choose not to do it. I feel no need for it, and if this was your definition of PC, I'd be on your side. But, ... the minute you tell me I can't do it, I'll switch sides.  


Politeness  = voluntary civility
PC = an attempt to use the power of the state to impose your views on others.

2. A resounding... Of course not.

3. Everything. In a nutshell...

Politeness is a voluntary action.

Say,  you ask me, can you please refrain from addressing me as  Bob, I'd prefer Robert, instead. I'd be happy to oblige.

Say,  you ask me, can you please refrain from addressing me as  Robert, I'd prefer Mr. XXX, instead. I'd be happy to oblige.

Say,  you ask me, can you please refrain from addressing me as  Mr. XXX, I'd prefer Maestro, instead. I'd be happy to oblige.


See, everything is between us, you ask politely, I'll find a courtesy in me to oblige.

But...  the minute you drag the government in it, and your decry...

"All XXX poeple have to be addressed as YYY" my middle finger suddenly stiffens.

Politeness is a voluntary and conditional surrender of someone's rights made in order to make interaction between people (potential lifetime friends) easier and more enjoyable foe all.

PC is a totalitarian concept. It is an attempt to intimidate (like in, fine,  prison, loss of property, mafia style "insurance") free people, into hiding their real thoughts, and present the "government preferred" face instead. Never, ever I'll suport that.

PC Is Bullchit.
But treating someone like a human being should come natural.
A dammed shame it dont though.