Author Topic: HispanosVsMausers  (Read 6957 times)

Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #60 on: May 11, 2000, 07:25:00 PM »
Pongo wasn't so much a challenge as an honest question.  I have solid data on the US stuff, but haven't seen any data on the German stuff that I could collaborate.

If you can find it, it would be much appreciated.

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Offline Hooligan

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« Reply #61 on: May 11, 2000, 07:49:00 PM »
Here is a list of some values for explosive/incendiary content for Mg121 20mm shells.

Mine (92g round) 18.6g PETN
APHE (115g round)4g PETN
HE/I (115g round) 4.4g PETN/Incendiary Mixture
AP/I (117g round) 6.2g Incendiary Mixture
AP/I (115g round) 3.6g Incendiary Mixture

Note that projectiles for the Mg151/20 generally weighed about 115g except for the Mine shells which weighed considerably less due to their high chemical (and thus low steel) content.

-ireg- provided the following information for me from a Luftwaffe order dated January 1944:

Ammo belting for Mg151
Ammo for fighter in the West: 1 - M-shell, 1 - APHE, 1 API

Ammo for fighter in the East: 3 - M-shell, 1 - APHE, 1 API

Hooligan


[This message has been edited by Hooligan (edited 05-11-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Hooligan (edited 05-11-2000).]

Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #62 on: May 12, 2000, 07:29:00 AM »
Thx Hooligan  

Ok so lets compare HE/I to HE/I, since thats what we have hard data for from each gun.

Hispano Mk II HE/I
165 grains of TNT = 10.69 grams of TNT
TNT = 4.1kJ/ gram of mass
1 shell therefore produces = 43.83kJ of explosive energy

Mauser MG151 HE/I
4.4 grams PETN/Incendiary mix

Now if I remember correctly, Ireg or someone over on AGW commented that PETN has about 110% of the explosive force of TNT, so:

PETN = TNT(1.1)= 4.1(1.1)= 4.51 kJ/gram mass
1 shell therefore produces = 19.84 kJ of explosive energy

So shell type for shell type we get 43.83kJ to 19.84kJ, or the Hispano HE/I has 220% of the explosive force per shell of the MG151 HE/I. Also look back to the differences in Kinetic energy as well.

You could also figure in the rate of fire, and compute 1 second bursts from each gun, but it still would not greatly effect the results.

Only if you go with the pure Mine shell will you get much difference, and then you get into the whole debate of whether the Allies had a comparable round to the Mine shell, and what is a "standard" loadout throughout the entire war.



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Offline Pongo

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« Reply #63 on: May 12, 2000, 09:21:00 AM »
Wow that is a huge difference.
I guess that explains why the germans apperanly never used the HE/I in there ammo load out....
Really to be fair Verm, get the ammo mix for the Typhoon, work out the explosive energy for a 3 second burst. Work out the explosive energy for a 3 second burst from the 4 151s.(ammo mix above) include the mine shell.
And lets compare the numbers..


Does an explosive/incendery mixture have the same energy as a straight explosive.(I have only ever used the stuff not read the box..)

You cant just leave out the mine shell cause it confuses the issue. And if HE shell usage is questioned the first casualty will likely be the HS not he mine shell.

Verm you mentioned earier a US 30mmm WW2 cannon round...which WW2 US cannon could fire a 30mm round?

You have given some good numbers that show how the HS ended up so supperior to the 151 in Aces High. If the ballistic numbers and the HE numbers are combined  we end up with a greatly supperior weapon about like what we have here. I wonder if the mine shell is in the game???I would be real interested in a direct comparison of the HE rounds and an ammo mix for the HS.

Cool


Offline Hooligan

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« Reply #64 on: May 12, 2000, 10:47:00 AM »
Pongo:

If explosive content is so important why didn't the Germans use Mine shells only?  Why did anybody use anything besides HE rounds?

Hooligan

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #65 on: May 12, 2000, 12:35:00 PM »
Well you know why they used tracer...
Because late ww2 AC are multi role aircraft. And mixing the ammo was a way to cover your bet. A givin 1 second burst would have 3 tracers, 3 mines, and 3 AP. Sounds like a good hedge to me. Why not do that. I never said penetration is useless nor that kinetic energy is useless. I said that the most important part of the kill was intended to be achieved by chemical energy.
If penetration and kinetic energy are so important whey not just keep solid shot for the HS?

Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #66 on: May 12, 2000, 01:02:00 PM »
Pongo, the reason that countries used both AP & HE is that they are both important (kinetic or explosive) is that not only do you need them for different missions, but also because depending on what part of the aircraft you are hitting, and from what aspect angle different shell types would be more effective. (my own theory and opinon of course)

On dead Six shots, AP is very good because it tends to go thru many many parts of the aircraft (including armor and engine blocks) before it becomes ineffective or exits the aircraft, where HE would detonate in the tail or on the skin limiting damage to that area.

On snapshots from planform aspects its just the opposite, AP would do little damage punching in and out of the skin doing little damage(say a wing), where the HE would blow a huge chunk of the wing out.

In my opinon you would probably need both like you said.

If you or anyone else can get the typical ammunition loadout of a hispano armed aircraft I will do the calculations you are asking for, but I don't know how the ammunition was loaded for Allied planes typically.

On the 30mm Cannon issue, let me explain. Several years ago while I was doing research on lethality (and running into a lack of hard data) I met a gentleman thru my job that works for a government contracter that dealt with various munitions.  He was the plant engineer, and this company took old ammunition of various sizes, "de-manufactured it" and then recycled the components and sent the material to be used in new ammunition.

So he invited me to the plant, gave me a tour, and showed me quite a few things and gave me some interesting information on light to medium caliber shells and bullets, including how they were constructed, fusing, components, and a whole lot more. While I was there they were working on everything from 7.62mm Nato rounds up to and including WWII era 40mm AAA rounds.

I told him about my research into lethality and we spent some time in his office going thru his reference library, and thats where I got the information I quoted in the earlier post. Of course all the information was for American Ammunition, but I wanted something I could compare the German 30mm shells too to get a feel for how the larger shells were loaded with explosive in relation to weight, and the shell I quoted was what we found.

I am not sure exactly sure about when this 30mm was used, but we both thought from the available information that it was from the WWII to Korea era.

Now the 20mm info I quoted this guy was confident that it was representative of WWII shells, because his factory had "demanufactured" a large number of them. But the 30mm was not something he had worked with, so it was taken directly from the manual that I referenced.

The shell could have been from anything from a aircraft gun, to a anti-aircraft gun. I just included that as a FYI type of thing.




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HaHa

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« Reply #67 on: May 12, 2000, 01:04:00 PM »
Well all I know is if I have a f4u1c on my tail and I hear a ping - I know I'm dead.. thats it. Any other plane it's not nearly (or even close) to being as bad.

Offline Hooligan

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« Reply #68 on: May 12, 2000, 01:11:00 PM »
Penetration, Kinetic Energy, explosive content and incendiary content are all important.  The Hispano is superior to the Mg151 in all these respects except when comparing explosive content of 1/3 of the 151 rounds (Mine rounds) to HS HE rounds (11.2g vs 18.6g).  Seems a bit of a stretch to me to assume that this 7g of explosive in 1/3 of the rounds is going to make up for the big differences in KE and penetration, not to mention the greater amounts of HE and incendiary compound in Hispano HE/I and AP/I rounds.  You seem awfully hung up on the fact that both of these weapons are 20mm and should thus be approximately equal.  A glance at the relative shell sizes would make any rational person suspect that the Hispano was a significantly more effective round.

Hooligan


-lazs-

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« Reply #69 on: May 12, 2000, 02:26:00 PM »
pongo... I stand by what I said.   I say that you admit that you have no idea of what the relative leathiality of the two 20mm rounds (hs vs 151) in the game is.   If I am incorrect then please tell me the ratio between the two and how you arrived at that figure please.
lazs

Offline hblair

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« Reply #70 on: May 12, 2000, 02:58:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by -lazs- to pongo:
I say that you admit that you have no idea of what the relative leathiality of the two 20mm rounds (hs vs 151) in the game is.   If I am incorrect then please tell me the ratio between the two and how you arrived at that figure please.

Why does he have to do the testing? If you're gung ho about these 'tests' why don't you go do it and prove him wrong, if thats what you want to do  .

No offense to you personally lazs, but some of us have been playing this game since the early months of open beta, the first night of open beta in my case. To have someone come over from WB's in the last week or two and try to 'straighten us out on gunnery' is kind of a stretch to say the least.  

Offline Citabria

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« Reply #71 on: May 12, 2000, 03:18:00 PM »
don't be screwing with the guns.

period.

up the armor of the panzer and make it more susceptible to bombs but dont go fiddling with the guns which have already been fine tuned.


WB can go to hell with their idiotic guns debates, look what has happened to them over there. (shudder)

seems like we feel it necessary to bring that grief upon ourselves the way they did?

yuck.


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Offline Pongo

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« Reply #72 on: May 12, 2000, 03:22:00 PM »
Verm
I just am not aware of a production 30mm US ww2 weapon.
I agree with your assessment of the importance of the different types of rounds.
Of course all rounds(even the mine shell) have some kinetic component and some penetration.

Hooligan.
Guessing at my hang ups, while interesting is not going to help us here. So dont guess. here it is.
Not quoted from any book that I have ever read------

"Gerry overshot me like a rocket and attempted to seperate. He made the mistake of pulling up level at 1100 meters. Mustuv just returned from the east this one..hasnt heard about the Mk2 yet..Must have thought I was armed with 303s or something wot...Of course a medium length burst of my trusty Mk2s turned him into so much scrap metal. It was extremly risky  to allow a 4 Hispano bird any shot at you whatsover at up to 1400 meters or so, suicide at a measly 800 m or less. We RAF types never understood why the yanks were so slow to accept the new world order in fighter weapons armement- or why gerry persisted in developing his varios and sudreid exotic cannons. HS was not theirs I suppose..But then its not ours either...Ha Ha  fell on our laps from the French..we had the ticket for everything from ships to planes to tanks right there all along..
We all lived in dread of 4 years that Gerry would copy the thing and hoist us on it..But he never figured it out I guess."

Does anyone contest that accounts like that would exist if the Typhoons gun package was really as effective as it is here?

Can anyone find me an account even close to that?
Hundereds of thousands of sorties flown over a period of 4 years. No one noticed what is imediatly obvios to anyone in AH in one night. The Hispano is the single biggest factor that differentiates the different fighters in AH. The other cannons work, the 50s work If you can shoot well you can kill quite realisitcaly with any of the guns here. I dont have to prove that to anyone that has flown with or against me. But the HS in particular the 4 gun package is different than all the rest by a wide margin.
You can fly planes equiped with them alot different then the ones that dont have it. If you face a plane with them you have to fight it alot differnt then you do any other plane.

There is no historical precident for the magnitude of that difference. As we have seen there is excellent tecnical evidence for a sertain level of superiority. How much..Why does the gun modeling work so well even for the 2 cannon spit but seem to fall apart for the 4 cannon F4U?  


Thats my hangup.


Pyro telling me he realized something was weird and he is keeping an eye on it is all I wanted to accomplish. So I can let this drop although I like to see the numbers and discussion from Verm and Funked and co about how you might decide the lethality of a given gun.


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« Reply #73 on: May 12, 2000, 04:03:00 PM »
Well.... hblair, I didn't say he HAD to do anything.   I offered to test with him.  

If each HS round was worth two 151 rounds would the HS's be overmodeled in your/his opinion?    How bout 1.5?   One to one?  0.7 to 1?  

I don't get it.... Testing is considered worthless but anecdotal crap gathered online by people with various agendas, in the heat of virtual combat is considered gospel?  
lazs


Offline Pongo

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« Reply #74 on: May 12, 2000, 06:07:00 PM »
Well. Is flying lots of missions with the aircraft not testing? We cant use the scientific method I suppose. But I feel more comfortable comparing apples and apples.
I am comparing the experiance of flying AH to how "I" percieve the expericance of flying in WW2 was. I would agree that the second is usless, but the first is not.

The belief that there is an imbalance in relation to the 4 HS package is generally accepted by lots of people in the comunity(I think most but I feel sure of lots). Why do we all play this horrible flawed game if Pongo is right and the HS is over modeled....
Because in many games the overmodeling would not even stand out. It is only in the context of the excellent gunfire system that it spikes quite badly. The other guns have been tweeked a little, the algorithms that effect their behavior have been tweeked a little. The damage models of the aircraft have been icrementaly improved and added to.(remember the paper tail on the 51 every one..)
The game has improved incrementaly. I love it. Most of us love it.  I really like that I can contibute to the game. The contibution I am trying to make is to focus on the historical record. We are simulating a war that really happend and of which many records and recolections where kept. We are not simulating some ballistic tables. But where the tables, recorded history, game play and the comunitys and Pyros tastes meet is the game we want.

Cit raises the specter of somthing that apperantly happend in another game in which I was never involved. Perhaps you respond to my blabs so stronly because they remind you of some other debate that led straight to probelms, or maybe you really see the value of establishing the exact ratio of effectiveness between the 151 and the HS.
Well I canot effect the first.
And the second is accutally risky as it regards this discussion. So if we establish that the HS is 170% more effecitve then the 151 and Pongo convinces the comunity that it should only be 125% more effective then we throttle back the HS by that much and we are happy right....
There leads to what Cit is worried about
fuktuations.

Lets present our cases and let Pyro if he and HT agree look at the routines for gunfire resolution and find out why the HS spikes more than common experiance from WW2 might indicate it should especialy as it really only feels wrong with 4 of them. That way we will have the game in shape for the Kick butt russian and German and Japanese cannons that are down the pipe.

Maybe your contibution can be testing..