Author Topic: Can we have night back? (Read 4343 times)

Toad · « **Reply #105 on:** September 13, 2004, 09:38:27 AM »

You "I love night/ I want night back" guys just turn your gamma down till it's dark enough for you.

Play like that as long as you like.

Move along now; absolutely nothing new in this thread.

Kev367th · « **Reply #106 on:** September 13, 2004, 10:24:52 AM »

Slapshot - Who's talking about realism, I certainly wasn't.

Realistically we really shouldn't have the amount of info from DAR we get anyway. Very little of the world had radar coverage to our extent in WW2.
Realistically airfields didn't always have 75% fuel.
Realistically aircraft didn't burn fuel at 2x normal rate.

etc etc.

I am sure the guys who did fight at night might object to not being classed as 'real' aces.

Zanth · « **Reply #107 on:** September 13, 2004, 10:27:02 AM »

If there is any way to get a P-61 out of this I'm all for it

SlapShot · « **Reply #108 on:** September 13, 2004, 10:54:37 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kev367th
Slapshot - Who's talking about realism, I certainly wasn't.

Realistically we really shouldn't have the amount of info from DAR we get anyway. Very little of the world had radar coverage to our extent in WW2.
Realistically airfields didn't always have 75% fuel.
Realistically aircraft didn't burn fuel at 2x normal rate.

etc etc.

I am sure the guys who did fight at night might object to not being classed as 'real' aces.

Kev ... the whole point is ... Did they actually dogfight in the pitch of night during WW II ? I say no ... the reason being cause you cant see JACK-SQAUT at night. Would they take the chance of losing a whole squad of P-51s to mid-air collisions with their own squaddies or the enemy? I don't think so.

Any WW II films or pictures that I see, that take place in compete darkness are bombers making their runs in the cover of darkness, or some funky looking plane that has all sorts of antenni all over it doing a reconasance run or hunting bombers.

Neither the bombers, nor the funky planes appear to be able to put up much of a dogfight. Wasn't the P-61 a bomber hunter ? It would locate the bombers and then blindside them ? If so, did they ever encounter 190 or 109 escorts and then get into a dogfight with them in the pitch dark ?

I fail to believe that the Tuskeegee airmen escorted bombers in the pitch black of night, waiting to encounter sqauds of FWs or MEs trying to intercept the bombers.

Come on ... where are the history buffs ? They can shed some light on this ... pun intended.

Unless the real nuances (or close to it) can be brought forth in AH, then night time is nothing but a nuisance.

Overlag · « **Reply #109 on:** September 13, 2004, 11:06:03 AM »

and thats where the problem lies, you seem to think AH is only a dogfighting game...........

Kev367th · « **Reply #110 on:** September 13, 2004, 11:14:40 AM »

Actually night fighting in its infancy was carried out using plain standard aircraft with only a different paint job.
Hurri 2c, Mossies and Spits. Admitedly the vast majority were buff intercepts.
Wasn't until later on that they started fitting a crude airborne radar to some.

SlapShot · « **Reply #111 on:** September 13, 2004, 11:22:56 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Overlag
and thats where the problem lies, you seem to think AH is only a dogfighting game...........

No Overlag ... I don't ... you didn't read all that I wrote.

I am saying that their were very specific planes that flew at night and from what I have seen, none of them are dogfighters.

If we were to have night, then only those planes that could SEE at night would be the only planes that could see dot-dar or icons.

So take a P-51 or a 109 into the pitch dark ... blind ... and lets see how much fun you will have ... otherwise take a plane that was truly equipped to fly in pitch darkness, which I believe leaves you with bombers, reconnaissance, or bomber hunters which is what you truly would have run into during WW II IMO.

SlapShot · « **Reply #112 on:** September 13, 2004, 11:28:15 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kev367th
Actually night fighting in its infancy was carried out using plain standard aircraft with only a different paint job.
Hurri 2c, Mossies and Spits. Admitedly the vast majority were buff intercepts.
Wasn't until later on that they started fitting a crude airborne radar to some.

Actually night fighting in its infancy was carried out using plain standard aircraft with only a different paint job.

OK .. I will believe that, but I would also believe that they FAILED miserably.

Admitedly the vast majority were buff intercepts.

I believe that they were all buff hunters. Know one in their right mind ... axis or allied ... went looking for dogfights in the pitch of night.

Wasn't until later on that they started fitting a crude airborne radar to some.

I wonde why ? Cause the pilots in those plain standard aircraft with a different paint job said ... ain't no way I am going back up there ... it's like flying with my eyes closed ... I can't see a bloody thing mate.

Overlag · « **Reply #113 on:** September 13, 2004, 11:29:30 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by SlapShot
No Overlag ... I don't ... you didn't read all that I wrote.

I am saying that their were very specific planes that flew at night and from what I have seen, none of them are dogfighters.

If we were to have night, then only those planes that could SEE at night would be the only planes that could see dot-dar or icons.

So take a P-51 or a 109 into the pitch dark ... blind ... and lets see how much fun you will have ... otherwise take a plane that was truly equipped to fly in pitch darkness, which I believe leaves you with bombers, reconnaissance, or bomber hunters which is what you truly would have run into during WW II IMO.

yes but you are basicaly saying we shouldnt have night because theres no dogfighting at night...what about all other parts of this game?

Quote

Originally posted by SlapShot
axis or allied ... went looking for dogfights in the pitch of night.

so you dont want night simply because you cant dog fight?

Kev367th · « **Reply #114 on:** September 13, 2004, 12:23:13 PM »

Did a quick check -
The two highest scoring night fighter aces got 20 each, one in a standard Hurricane 2c, the other in a Mosquito.

Flight Lieutenant Karel Kuttelwascher, Hurri (includes 4xBf109's!)
Incidently his C.O. Squadron Leader James MacLachian got 5, and he only had one arm.
Branse A. Burbridge, Mosquito, 20 out of 21 at night.

But of course these aren't real aces.

mechanic · « **Reply #115 on:** September 13, 2004, 12:43:28 PM »

hell, lets just give everyone unlimited ammo and supercharged engines, wouldnt that make it more fun at the price of realism too?

CMC Airboss · « **Reply #116 on:** September 13, 2004, 01:33:02 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by SlapShot
You want "realism" ? ... you want night time ?

Maybe some of you real history afficianados can enlighten us.

How many "real" WW II aces scored kills at night ?

How many of them actually engaged in dogfighting at night ?

How many dogfighting kills did Yeager, Bong, Boyington score in the pitch dark of night ?

How many dogfighting kills did the German aces score in the pitch dark of night ?

How many P-51s, N1Ks, Spitfires, La-7s, 109s, 190s, F4-Us, P-47s, 202s, 205s, P-38s, F6-Fs, FM2s, A6Ms, and 262s were equipped with night time radar that would allow them to dogfight effectively ?

Could one, during WW II, effectively dogfight at night ? ... or was night time flying only done for reconnasance and bombing purposes ?

Good questions Slap, but they have the common thread that indicates a preference for dogfighting. The basic answer is simple: there was probably very little, if any, "dogfighting" during night engagements. The reason is also simple. Most of the kills were made by interceptors against bombers that were attempting to use the cover of night to achieve concealement and surprise.

There is one fact that you are overlooking when comparing a dogfighting experience online with what happened in WW2. The vast majority (greater than 80%) of air-to-air kills were made without "dogfighting." That is, most aircraft were shot down from an unseen attacker and were not in maneuvering flight. This includes day and night.

The AH community is a collection of folks that have a diverse view about what creates a fun online combat experience. There are many pilots who prefer to fly bombers, attack missions, and ground vehicles. These other groups can benefit greatly during night time operations. We lost the night mostly because of the complaints from dogfighters. (In my view there was a very small group of very vocal pilots that created a lot of anti-night posts). Some of these people left the game when AH2 made their online dogfighting experience less satisfying than it had been.

So in response to the original thread title, I would vote to bring night back to the MA.

MiG

SlapShot · « **Reply #117 on:** September 13, 2004, 01:34:28 PM »

yes but you are basicaly saying we shouldnt have night because theres no dogfighting at night...what about all other parts of this game?

No ... I am saying that if we have night, then it should, within reason, emulate what took place at night. I asert that the majority of sorties, at night, in WW II, were either bomber, bomber hunting, or reconnaissance sorties. So ... if night comes back, those are the choices that we will really have, if you want to fly effectively.

If you take up a P-51/P-38/P-47/F4-U and think that you are gonna go on JABO run, then you must go with no radar and no icons. Those that do have night capable planes, will be able to see you (you will not see them) and trash you at will.

Sounds like fun ?

I am not a bomber guy ... I have nothing against those who are, and have much respect for them, but as far as I am concerned, they are the only ones that really have a mission when it come to night flying.

They know their target, they follow their waypoints, deliver their load, and RTB.

If we had night capable bomber hunters, then they could try and find the needle in the haystack and try to destroy it. Outside of that, any and all planes were basically useless and dangerous to themselves and anyone they flew near to.

SlapShot · « **Reply #118 on:** September 13, 2004, 01:35:52 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kev367th
Did a quick check -
The two highest scoring night fighter aces got 20 each, one in a standard Hurricane 2c, the other in a Mosquito.

Flight Lieutenant Karel Kuttelwascher, Hurri (includes 4xBf109's!)
Incidently his C.O. Squadron Leader James MacLachian got 5, and he only had one arm.
Branse A. Burbridge, Mosquito, 20 out of 21 at night.

But of course these aren't real aces.

Thanks for the info Kev !!!

With that, I could again surmise that fighters at night were scarce and not anywhere near the norm.

SlapShot · « **Reply #119 on:** September 13, 2004, 01:49:55 PM »

Good questions Slap, but they have the common thread that indicates a preference for dogfighting. The basic answer is simple: there was probably very little, if any, "dogfighting" during night engagements. The reason is also simple. Most of the kills were made by interceptors against bombers that were attempting to use the cover of night to achieve concealement and surprise.

OK ... so there was not much dogfighting at night and those that did fly at night were specially equipped planes. They were basically bomber hunters ... were they not ? How many of these planes do we have available to us in the MA ? ... none is the answer I think.

When these bomber hunters (say the P-61) found the bombers, did they encounter 109 or 190 escorts ... I don't think so. If so, then they didn't last long ... this to me would be suicide.

The AH community is a collection of folks that have a diverse view about what creates a fun online combat experience. There are many pilots who prefer to fly bombers, attack missions, and ground vehicles. These other groups can benefit greatly during night time operations. We lost the night mostly because of the complaints from dogfighters. (In my view there was a very small group of very vocal pilots that created a lot of anti-night posts). Some of these people left the game when AH2 made their online dogfighting experience less satisfying than it had been.

I disagree ... look at what is available in the hanger. Is there not an overwhelming choice of "fighter" planes there ? What does that leave us when night falls.

Again, if night were to "really" be implemented and only those specially equipped planes had "eyes", the rest are blind (no dot-dar, no icons), could you imagine the amount of whineage that would take place.

Do you think that all these so-called "fighter jocks" would gladly jump into a bomber or a GV when the sun set ? I don't think so.

I want to fly my P-51 at night, but I can see a damn thing ... I want my dot-dar back and I want icons back or I QUIT ... stomp stomp stomp ... you are punishing me !!!

If ya want night, then make it night as I have explained ... I will gladly participate in my P-61, but until then, night is useless and if not the most non-realistic parameter in all of Aces High.