Originally posted by Wotan
Where ever you got your 'story' it's just incorrect.
You are right. I was writing by memory. I pulled out Johnson's book tonight and verified what you stated.
You were making a good argument right up until you decided to take the low road with:
This type BS is the same type of garbage as your 'just 60 p38s took on 200 LW experten'...
For the record, I wrote this: "One last factor. Only two Groups of P-38s were available in December of 1943, the 20th and the 55th. While they had a total strength of 70-80 fighters between them, usually only about 60 were available for any given mission. Of these, 15%-20% would be aborts. It was rare for both Groups to get more than a total of 50 fighters into enemy airspace. Facing these 50 fighters were 200-400 Luftwaffe fighters."
So, where do you see 'just 60 p38s took on 200 LW experten'?
Looking at the after action reports of the 55th FG (signed by Col. Frank James), there are several instances where the number of German fighters encountered were estimated "well in excess of 200". One mission was on February 4th, 1944. The 55th and 20th took the bombers to Frankfurt, and were relieved on the way back by 50+ P-51s. Once the P-47s had turned back, that left 56 P-38s to protect 300 bombers from the German border to Frankfurt, and then another 50 miles back before the P-51s showed up. Needless to say, the P-38s were very busy racing back and forth trying to meet every group of Luftwaffe fighters that arrived.
Dr. Carlo Kopp wrote in his treatise on the P-38; "combat radius helps to win air wars. This simple observation sums up much of what distinguished the P-38 from its contemporaries, and also why this aircraft must be considered the single most significant fighter in the US inventory in W.W.II. The critical air battles, when Allied strength was still building up and Axis strength was at its peak, were fought by the P-38 force, deep inside hostile airspace against a numerically superior enemy."
Kopp also states: "The 55th FG became operational with the P-38H at Nuthampstead in the UK, in October, 1943, deploying from McChord Field in Washington state, where it was a training unit periodically stripped of squadrons to reinforce MTO and SWPA FGs. Tasked with bomber escort at high altitude, the single group of P-38s provided deep escort outside of the range of the seven P-47 groups and numerous RAF Spitfire squadrons, which escorted bombers over the Channel. At this time the Luftwaffe was at its peak, with 8 JagdGeschwaders (JG1, JG2, JG3, JG11, JG26, JG51, JG106) equipped with Bf109G and Fw190A and 3 NachtJagdGeschwaders (NJG1, NJG2, NJG6) equipped with Bf110G available to defend the continent, each JG/NJG with typically 3 Staffels (Squadrons) per JG/NJG.
The P-38s were all that stood between the Luftwaffe and the bombers, 500 NM deep inside hostile airspace. Unescorted, the B-17s and B-24s suffered up to 30% attrition on some raids and the P-38s were the only aircraft with the radius to the task. Typically, P-47 Thunderbolts provided fighter cover to and from the German border. The P-47, truly an excellent high altitude fighter, was saddled with its limited range. They were just beginning to be equipped with belly mounted drop tanks. Yet, these were still inadequate for flying beyond the German frontier. The rotund Thunderbolt would suffer from a lack of range until the arrival of the P-47D-25-RE later in 1944. This model had 100 gallons of increased internal tankage and provision for three external drop tanks. Even with the arrival of some P-51B Mustangs, the P-38 was to bear the brunt of deep penetration escort duty for the next several months. The P-51B equipped 354th (9th AF) went operational in late December, 1943, followed by the 357th and 4th FGs in February, 1944. The P-38 equipped 264th went operational in March, 1944, and the 479th as late as May 1944. During the critical late months of 1943 the P-38 stood alone, with Mustang numbers building rapidly from February 1944."
So Wotan, you can twist things all you want, but the simple fact remains that only 50-60 P-38s stood between the bombers and the Luftwaffe, which could certainly get up more than 200 fighters in late 1943.
It seems to me that there is a general pattern among the Luftwaffe apologists. That is to distort, twist and when required, fabricate to support your argument. Moreover, no one defends a lie to the death like these characters. It's sad, because there's much of merit to discuss concerning the Luftwaffe. But, the "supermen" mentality will not allow for that discussion. I expected better from Wotan, but I can see that he subscribes to the same methodology...
My regards,
Widewing