Author Topic: Question to Finns  (Read 25184 times)

Offline Raven_2

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Question to Finns
« Reply #930 on: March 30, 2005, 10:22:54 PM »
to Toad

>>Yeah, ask the Euros if they feel like the US rules their countries.

Why I should ask ordinary europian fellow does it feel rulled by USA, if one of the USA top elite write this in his book? Am I said that they feel ruled? No. I said that your government think itself a ruler of the Europe.

And Toad, if you don`t know (shame on you in that case) who is Brzezinski, check this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbigniew_Brzezinski
« Last Edit: March 30, 2005, 10:31:01 PM by Raven_2 »

Offline genozaur

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Question to Finns
« Reply #931 on: March 30, 2005, 10:34:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
For those interested in understanding what really happened to KAL 007, I suggest this article. It's a bit long, but it is the most accurate I have read to date. I say that after having talked to RC-135 personnel with extensive knowledge of the incident and after getting the "other side"... what happened and how to keep it from happening again.. from the Air Line Pilots Association, company and ICAO briefings.

A REPORTER AT LARGE: CLOSING THE FILE ON FLIGHT 007 BY MURRAY SAYLE  

Sayle obviously did a lot of research. His explanation of the failure to recouple the INS to the autopilot after the mandatory coast-out nav accuracy check is one of the few places I've seen that key element mentioned. There's few guys flying the trans-ocean routes that haven't made that mistake once in their careers.

I do not suggest it for our Stalinist readers. The truth will only upset you and force you to dig up even more imbecilic explantions for why the Soviets had to shoot down another airliner that was no threat to them and was in fact, either OUT OF or VERY NEARLY OUT OF their airspace at the time it was shot down.


Toad, thank you very much for wasting your
precious time on the above-mentioned  article.
Sorry, but I haven't found a grain of  evidence in it which can disprove the facts which I relayed to you : the presence of the US recon plane flying (slightly outside the Soviet airspace) on a parallel course with KAL-007, and the simultaneous overflight above this same area by Marisat (US spy satellite).
On the contrary, I've found even more suspicious details in this peace of american journalism.
For example :
Quote
{KAL-007} "climbs briefly {?-G.S.} to a more economical cruising height."[END OF QUOTE]
What is this ? With only about three hours of flight time left, the pilot-in-command finally decides to become "economical" ? What was he doing before ? Sleeping ? And here it comes :
Quote
"Captain Chun is roused from some kind of reverie, or dream." [END OF QUOTE]

So disturbed and distructed from his day-dream Captain Chung was, that he refused to have a meal.
Quote
"Let's eat later."[END OF QUOTE] My question here is about the time of Captain Chun last supper. When did the crew have their last meal before that ? Is it so usual for the captain-in-command at this time into the flight to postpone the meal for himself and his co-pilot ?

And soon in the text of the article appeares an extremely interesting phrase about the KAL-007 airliner :
Quote
"... entering prohibited airspace above the Soviet Union for the second time that night."[END OF QUOTE]

What a  wonderful example of american journalism ! It appeares that the airliner did it again ! Maybe this was why the captain-in-command was so distructed from observing the meal time. And it can easily be so taking into account his service record connecting him to CIA.

So, Toad, what was the use of this propaganda of yours ? You did not answer any of my questions. Not about the US recon plane on a parallel course (this is a fact), not about the US spy satellite (this is also a fact), not about Chun's connection to CIA (this I can not prove because I read it in a newpaper).

Still waiting for your answers.

Offline Raven_2

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Question to Finns
« Reply #932 on: March 30, 2005, 10:45:20 PM »

Offline Simaril

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Question to Finns
« Reply #933 on: March 30, 2005, 10:45:58 PM »
New to the party (no, not THAT party) Np, I'm not going to read every post -- so forgive me if redundant.


Interesting to note that as Soviet archives with ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS become available to researchers and hsitorians, the data has become so overwhelming that lifelong pro-USSR, anti-US "imperialism" westerners have started to get very quiet. Some have even recanted their previous positions.

What kind of data? Well, how about original internal census data from USSR srchives showing that population dropped by millions in the mid thirties, at the exact time that reports of pogroms and famine filtered out to the free world. USSR publically denied that their economic policies could have had any such effect, while documents over Stalin's signature talk about effects of shipping subsistance grain out of Ukraine as being necessary for the production plans despite knowingly causing starvation.

Or how about production figures showing that nationalized factories "for the sake of the workers" actually delivered a dramatically smaller proprtion of output as salary, than the same factories did before the revolution.

Or the incontrovertable disappearance of hundreds of experienced military officers before WW2, contributing mightily to the disarray the Nazis first encountered after the invasion.



Original documents, not interpretations by people trying to prove their assumptions, should carry great weight. Consider any book by Robert Conquest, a British historian from the same liberal educational system that gave us the "fellow traveller" spies that later defected to the USSR.

Democracy isnt perfect,  capitalism isnt perfect. But, those systems have spread because THEY WORK. Standards of living go up, and honestly IF the eastern european states saw drops in output (which the Hungarians and Poles would at least find hard to beleive), it would likely be because the dictators and apparatniks stayed in power after the "revlutions." Democracy and enterprise florish best where there is a tradition of independence, where governments believe the law applies to them too, and where the press is free to root around for the liars and cheaters. These conditions have generally not been present in the ex-communist bloc. No American president has ever, or could ever, get away with jailing his political opponent or nationalising the business empire of a critic. Mr Putin has done precisely those things.


And Raven --

Consider this imaginary situation. If someone grew up in a culture that used false statements and propaganda to control their population, wouldn't they be trained to believe in things that weren't true? Wouldnt they be certain of their perspective, becuase everything they'd ever read and everyone around them had been taught the same thing? Wouldnt they have been taught that everyone else, from other countries, were being tricked by their leaders?

Could it be that your background has misled you?
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Offline Simaril

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Question to Finns
« Reply #934 on: March 30, 2005, 10:53:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raven_2
to Toad

>>Yeah, ask the Euros if they feel like the US rules their countries.

Why I should ask ordinary europian fellow does it feel rulled by USA, if one of the USA top elite write this in his book? Am I said that they feel ruled? No. I said that your government think itself a ruler of the Europe.

And Toad, if you don`t know (shame on you in that case) who is Brzezinski, check this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbigniew_Brzezinski
 

Why are you absing so much of your argument on the writings of one guy, who hasnt had an impact on power since teh Carter admininstration? And, though you may not realize this, Carter is widely considered to be an ineffective non-leader. So, Mr. Z.B. is an ex- advisor to an ineffective president, long out of power. His opinions are jsut that, opinions. They do not represent official US policy, and he does not have any measurable influence on anybody who actually makes decisions.


Edit:

Umm, did you jsut admit that the capitalist system feeds people better than the communist? Doesnt that undercut your argument?

After all, if things were better in East Germany, why'd they build the wall? Why did bringing down the wall, and allowing free movement of people, bring down communism if that system is free, secure and rewarding?

Nobody rushed INTO comunist countries to get access to their supposedly superior social services.....
« Last Edit: March 30, 2005, 10:58:00 PM by Simaril »
Maturity is knowing that I've been an idiot in the past.
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Offline Raven_2

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Question to Finns
« Reply #935 on: March 30, 2005, 10:56:09 PM »
Quote

Great Britain, to be sure, still remains important to America. It continues to wield some degree of global influence through the Commonwealth, but it is neither a restless major power nor is it motivated by an ambitious vision. It is America's key supporter, a very loyal ally, a vital military base, and a close partner in critically important intelligence activities. Its friendship needs to be nourished, but its policies do not call for sustained attention. It is a retired geostrategic player, resting on its splendid laurels, largely disengaged from the great European adventure in which France and Germany are the principal actors.


Supporter, military base and very loyal do ... I mean, ally. That what to should be done with all Europian countries.

Quote

The other medium-sized European states, with most being members of NATO and/or the European Union, either follow America's lead or quietly line up behind Germany or France.


Well, at least two countries in Europe still can do something without direct USA orders.

Offline Raven_2

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Question to Finns
« Reply #936 on: March 30, 2005, 11:02:33 PM »
to Simaril

>>Why are you absing so much of your argument on the writings of one guy, who hasnt had an impact on power since teh Carter admininstration?

Well, to your knowledge, Brzezinski was on the Yushenko`s back in the Ukraine "orange revolution" last year. Brzezinski had no power, you think? And Kissinger also? You make me a laugh :-)

>>They do not represent official US policy

Doesn`t watch TV? Doesn`t read newspapers? Three revolutions in ex-USSR countries - like Brzezinski planned. Preparing to Iran attack - like Brzezinski planned. Ukraine are going NATO and dictated by Washington - like Brzezinski wanted. Go on?

Offline Raven_2

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Question to Finns
« Reply #937 on: March 30, 2005, 11:25:42 PM »
to Simaril

>>Original documents, not interpretations by people trying to prove their assumptions, should carry great weight. Consider any book by Robert Conquest, a British historian from the same liberal educational system that gave us the "fellow traveller" spies that later defected to the USSR.

Bah. Conquest and Beavour are famous history reverses. Conquest had no access to USSR data. Conquest books are lot of stupid things. 40.000.000 being shot? USSR population was 160.000.000 before war and 145.000.000 *only in Russia* for now  (45.000.000 in Ukraine,  > 200.000.000 in ex-USSR total). So, we have 40 + 25 (war) = 65 millions of unnatural deaths.  So, demographic rise must be > 100.000.000 (population doubled) during 45-95 (2.000.000 per year) - and this is without natural deathes.

Population double in 50 years? Well, there only two possaiblity for that:
1. Russians fkuck like rabbits
2. Conquest is stupid lier

You choice?

>>Or how about production figures showing that nationalized factories "for the sake of the workers" actually delivered a dramatically smaller proprtion of output as salary, than the same factories did before the revolution.

Russian Empire lost WW1. USSR win WW2. Need more argumentation?

>>USSR publically denied that their economic policies could have had any such effect, while documents over Stalin's signature talk about effects of shipping subsistance grain out of Ukraine as being necessary for the production plans despite knowingly causing starvation.

Sure, that had place. There were femine after devastating civil war, in 1922-1923, so Stalin feed central part by starving Ukrainian people.

>>Or the incontrovertable disappearance of hundreds of experienced military officers before WW2, contributing mightily to the disarray the Nazis first encountered after the invasion.

They were mostly "Whites" (ex-tzar` officers). There a lot of book on this subject - it`s not an easy matter. Historians still discuss on that - one side argue that this was stupid decission, while others argue that there were a lot of documented treachery incidents from their side.

And this weren`t "reason for dissaray". The main reason was that USSR had only ~50 divisions at border when invasion start (nazi had ~180 divisions) and two groups ~55 divisions each in 300 and 600 km deeper from border. So, nazi just smash each layer by using triple more superiority on each soviet group. After regrouping and Stalingrad fight, soviet officers show the world what they might.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2005, 11:46:06 PM by Raven_2 »

Offline Raven_2

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Question to Finns
« Reply #938 on: March 30, 2005, 11:45:21 PM »
to Simaril

>>Democracy isnt perfect, capitalism isnt perfect. But, those systems have spread because THEY WORK

They work for India? They work for Africa? They work for South America? No. Only for Europe and USA. But Europe and USA *always* were rich countries - even in times of monarchy and without free trade. And India, Africa, South America always were poor - capitalism don`t helped them. On other hand - capitalism make west richer and other countries poorer.

>>No American president has ever, or could ever, get away with jailing his political opponent or nationalising the business empire of a critic.

LOL :-) Hodorkovskiy is a *thief*! This accepted even by his advocates for now. The only thing to discuss it`s a time of inprisonment - advocates talks about 2-3 years and office of public prosecutor about 7-10.

Political opponent :-) He hated by the most of people long befor incident with YUKOS, cause anyone knows that he (also Abramovich, Berezovskiy and Gusinskiy) steal all he had from state during unfair privatization of state property caused by Tchubais. His rates would be below zero if he try to become a president :-)

Rich enough thief cannot be jailed in USA? Well, that`s your problems.

>>Consider this imaginary situation. If someone grew up in a culture that used false statements and propaganda to control their population, wouldn't they be trained to believe in things that weren't true? Wouldnt they be certain of their perspective, becuase everything they'd ever read and everyone around them had been taught the same thing? Wouldnt they have been taught that everyone else, from other countries, were being tricked by their leaders?

LOL. How someone of us can be certain that his government didn`t do such thing with him?

I read a lot of western books (all docs I cite is from western sources, as you can see). And did you ever read soviet books? Soviet newspapers? Watch soviet TV?

See my point? I know what they told to me and I know what they told to you. And you only know what they told to you.

So - who is brainwashed? :-) No offence.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2005, 11:52:33 PM by Raven_2 »

Offline Toad

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Question to Finns
« Reply #939 on: March 30, 2005, 11:51:43 PM »
I'll be very nice and explain your ignorance as gently as I can.

You obviously have no idea of civilian trans-oceanic flight procedures. None.

Quote
{KAL-007} "climbs briefly {?-G.S.} to a more economical cruising height."


This is STANDARD. While on the NoPac (North Pacific) routes,  altitude is used for aircraft separation. So, in general they DO NOT want you to change altitudes. Out on the tracks, you are not talking to an Air Traffic Control center; rather your communications are relayed to ATC through an HF radio service. Everything is quite delayed.

As you burn fuel and get lighter, the higher altitudes are much more economical. The Flight Management System computes when to climb and company rules are to follow FMS data. So it is ROUTINE once you are back under an Air Traffic Control Center, to ask for a higher altitude.



Quote
"Let's eat later."


Most crews eat either prior to leaving for the airport (hotel, local restaurant) which would be about 3-4 hours prior to departure. The passengers get served FIRST, so rarely is food offered until about 5-6 hours into an overseas flight. Captains, particularly on Asian airlines, DO determine when the crew will eat. It would be common on an Asian airline. On US airlines, most Captains allow everyone to pick their own time.

 
Quote
"... entering prohibited airspace above the Soviet Union for the second time that night."


Yeah, it was. Your incompetent air defense let him cut across the tip of Kamchatka prior to intercepting him. and shooting him down.



The entire flight path is consistent with a failure to engage the INS/autopilot interface after the coast-out nav accuracy check leaving Alaska.

Which is EXACTLY what the ICAO determined after the Soviets gave the FDR to them.


Quote
Not about the US recon plane on a parallel course (this is a fact),


No, it's not a fact, it's fiction.

KAL 007 crossed the RC track but never paralleled it. No RC ever flew a track like KAL flew. Ever.

Quote
 KE007, still steered by its compass, crossed the track of an American RC-135 reconnaissance aircraft that was on its way home from its duty station, flying over international waters, two hundred miles east of the Kamchatka Peninsula. The RC-135, a modified Boeing 707, was crammed with electronic gear designed to monitor a Soviet ballistic -- missile test that had been scheduled for that same night but had subsequently been cancelled.

Although the RC-135 flight was unpublicized, it was not illegal or especially sinister: such flights were part of the "national technical means of verification" mentioned, though coyly not described, in the Strategic Arms Limitation Treaty then in force between the superpowers.

The RC-135 completed its leisurely sentry run off the Kamchatka coast, well north of KE007's track, and was back on the ground on Shemya Island, one of the Aleutians, a full hour before the shootdown.  


Verified by people I knew flying the RC-135S that night.

So, again, you have no clue.

 
Quote
not about the US spy satellite (this is also a fact),


Nah, it's just more Soviet BS; they planted it in the  press.
 
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Offline mora

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Question to Finns
« Reply #940 on: March 31, 2005, 02:19:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
This guy is as good as Boroda! :rofl


I think he's way beyond Boroda. This guy is dead serious.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2005, 02:24:21 AM by mora »

Offline mora

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Question to Finns
« Reply #941 on: March 31, 2005, 02:38:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raven_2
Bah. There are German, France and Sweden near, why they transport them into Finland, then? Finish medical system are ordinary and worse that in biggest EU countries, AFAIK.

Maybe, his last will was to die at homeland? :-)


True but it still is light years ahead of Russia or even Greece. No matter what country you are in you need to pay to get decent health care.

Offline Raven_2

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Question to Finns
« Reply #942 on: March 31, 2005, 03:30:29 AM »
to mora

>>True but it still is light years ahead of Russia or even Greece. No matter what country you are in you need to pay to get decent health care.

Well, true enough. I got plastic surgery (not for cosmetic purposes, fix up my broken nose; "bloody sport" :-) half a year ago and pleased with the result :-) It costs me 800$. And half a month of horror with gypsum on my face.

Six year ago I got the same for free. Phisiologicaly, result was the same (main reason for me was to restore nose breath, it was fully restored in both cases) but result was visualy worser (they just remove part of septum in the nose, no cosmetical stuff).

In any case, I know nobody from here (I mean only my region, not whole country) that goes to the foreign hospitals cause don`t trust our medics. There a lot of turists to China/Japan/Malasia for untraditional medicine (acupuncture and so on) here, but mostly for expirience purposes, not for real healing.

Offline Siaf__csf

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Question to Finns
« Reply #943 on: March 31, 2005, 03:54:52 AM »
Raven: She was transported away with a special medical aircraft with care instruments and a doctor onboard.

Offline Raven_2

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Question to Finns
« Reply #944 on: March 31, 2005, 04:30:45 AM »
to Sciaf

900 km to Helsinki/1500 km to Copenhagen just to get surgery... When there a lot of perfect clinics in Moscow... Idiocy.

BTW, russian doctors and russian scientists are most welcome immigrants from ex-USSR countries to the West. Maybe there were contracts between insurer company and certain clinics?