P47N Perk Debate

[DoctorYO]

If the P47n has anywhere the proformance that has been documented.  Then it will be dominating..

great engine..  great endurance, p47 incredible hulk airframe, 8 50's with abundant ammo. bubble canopy..

perk all latewar aircraft , reset perks every month..

that way you would see more perk rides at the end of the tour simulating the war..

if you want to fly inferior aircraft to get perks quickly in tour thats your choice for a dominating early tour f4u4 or tempest , spit14 etc...

resetting perks would balance the arena pretty well not giving favor to those who are in the game longer but rewarding actual skill over "time in grade"







DoctorYo

[Wilbus]

Originally posted by DoctorYO
If the P47n has anywhere the proformance that has been documented.  Then it will be dominating..

great engine..  great endurance, p47 incredible hulk airframe, 8 50's with abundant ammo. bubble canopy..

perk all latewar aircraft , reset perks every month..

that way you would see more perk rides at the end of the tour simulating the war..

if you want to fly inferior aircraft to get perks quickly in tour thats your choice for a dominating early tour f4u4 or tempest , spit14 etc...

resetting perks would balance the arena pretty well not giving favor to those who are in the game longer but rewarding actual skill over "time in grade"


DoctorYo

Resetting perks every month would suck. Think about the new guys
"WOHOW! 50 more perks then I've got a 262!"

"HOST: Congratulations your perks have been reset, please try again."

As for the P47, endurance means jack S*** in AH for most of the time, even LA7's similair planes are being flown with less then 100% fuel as it is now by many pilots, almost noone will grab a P47 N with 100%.

Second, AH has become all about speed at the deck, once you get low, you better have a plane with superior acceleration and speed to get out alive. Granted many people don't fly to live long but it's still a matter of speed and accel to be able to chase the runners.

The P47 N will never rule the arena, perked or not.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

What he ^ said ^.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

By far the vast majority of "combat" in AH 2 in the MA happens well below 15K feet.

By far the vast majority do not fly more than 2-3 sectors to a fight.

The negates about 90% of the advantages of the P-47N, mostly range and high altitude performance.

From what I've read, the speed and acceleration of the P-47N will not be greater than the LA7 or the Tiffie on the deck, and the 8 50 BMG in the wings are not going to hit much if any harder than some of the cannon planes, especially those equipped with "hizookas".

The truth is, neither the TA152, nor the Spit XIV nor the C Hog would be any more disruptive than the LA7 or other speed demons are now, so there still is no valid reason to perk the P-47N, since it doesn't meet the criteria for a perk ride any better than the others.

If you argue that the best models of a particular plane MUST be perked, then you'd have to perk the G-10 and BOTH the J and L P-38's, since the performance difference between the J and L is negligible at best.

Perking all the late war planes is simply a tactic to force people to fly the planes YOU want them to, and as such is not a valid arguement. The AH 2 MA is for EVERYONE, and not just for a particular group or type of people, or to suit only their personal tastes.

It probably WOULD be a good idea to rename the MA, or add to it a descriptive term like "melee" or "free for all" since it really has no historical basis or rules. Attempting to force the MA to be something else at this point is an exercise in futility at best anyway.

[Guppy35]

Unperk em all, let the AH gods sort em out.


Dan/CorkyJr
Who still is sticking to the 38G regardless of what else is out there.....unless we get a Spit LFIXe at some point

[Magoo]

Our thread has morphed (sorry Morpheus) partially into a general perk debate.  That's OK since we don't really know what we're going to get regarding the N.

Remember the Ki84?

That said, it's each person's prerogative to engage in mental mastubation regarding the N. HT isn't going to allow anyone to force their opinions upon the masses - That right belongs to him exclusively;)

Regarding any proposed perk system let's remember that HT likely isn't going to perk the P51-D. His first concern is his business and it's bad business to perk the most famous plane in the U.S. , thus keeping new customers from flying it freely.  Ya I know that we have the B version but that isn't the plane that the casual enthusiast thinks of when he thinks he'll join Aces High and jump into a Pee 51 and kill Huns.

The 51-B is a better knife fighter tho (and my favorite ride at the moment)

Magoo

[DoctorYO]

Wilbus, your really wrong on strength of endurance on the battlefield..(i could give you a two page write up on it and even how it pertains to ah battlefield as well not just RL)  your point on the noobs etc is noted but tweaking the perk system could alleviate that with ease..


Virgil all this talk of me trying force anyone to do anything is all rubbish in your head..

your entitled your opinion im entitled mine.. so pipe down on my evil ma take over.. (all im saying the ma would be better either with a attrition model or limiting device so all we dont see is latewar aircraft..)(tweaking the perk system is one way to achieve this..)

Look aside from the perk debate here is some info for you in regards to the p47n

http://www.majorleesaerodrome.net/P47tech.html

granted the above has not been checked out (not yet at least) but i know for shure from the books i have that the P47n horsepower is accurate.. (plus his page has all models nice and neat..)

heres some math..

our d11 does about 345 wepped on deck with about 2300hp (note im using our figures for AH not his page..)

He has (and i agree from my sources) that the p47n has about 2800hp a increase of about 500hp or a percentage increase of roughly 22% increase in power..  now granted it has greater wing area, and greater fuel load.. to offset that hp increase to actual proformance increase..  But imo i cant see that offset to be greater than a 10% reduction of overall proformance given that 500hp advantage..

now the math..

if our current p47 can do about 345 on deck..  then at least the p47n would have a proformance increase factor of say 1.1 (10%)

so taking that figure the p47n should be able (this is a rough/scaled down figure to boot so no arguments arise..) to achieve at least :

1.1 x 345 = 379.5 mph on deck...

just using raw data with 22% increase is as follows:

1.22 x 345 = 420.9 mph

Ill let you choose what figure to use or inbetween..  either one of them is freaking beast material in the ma ..  dont take my word for it.. use this..

p47d11 stats most recent tour..

1655 Kills to 1167 deaths.. 1.42 k/d

thats pretty good.. considering the chaos of the main.. (one of the main reasons is durability why these p47's get the high K/D i fly the thing i know this for fact..)

the reason i use the d11 is that its a more accurate discription of the aircrafts  stats given it only has 1 500lb and is a poor choice for the jabo heavyweights; as the d40 and d25 are often suicided into whatever the target is..

now your telling me a incredible hulk aircraft with 21,000 lbs of ord 8 50's who knows what type of climb (im saying well above 3k/min) 380mph+ on deck is non perk material. "and act now for only 19.95 throw in eternal fuel load and canopy for free..  thats right free"

Like i said earlier you have you opinion i have mine..

I can see the whines now as you get on p47n's six only to watch it take massive hits and outrun you to safety..
all whines now about doras doing just that are rampant..  now imagine a p47 doing it but doing it better...  

pleasantville indeed.. (and this is comming from a d11 pilot, me.....)


If HTC wants to give superbirds (unbalancing) away for free hey its his company do whatever he wants to do..(doing it with la7 handicap bird already so what else is new)  I understand he's not a charitable institution..





DoctorYo

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Doctor Yo, the rubbish is in your post.

If you propose perking late war rides and resetting perks, then yes, whether you like it or not, whether you accept it or not, you are FORCING others to fly planes you prefer them to fly. There is no other possible outcome. You WILL force others to fly early war rides (to EARN:rolleyes:  the right to fly late war rides) every month, period. Explain how ANYTHING else can happen given the system you envision.

First of the month those who would normally fly post 1943 planes as their regular ride would not have perk points. YOU want them reset. YOU would have the post 1943 planes perked. As such, there would be no post 1943 planes available. Thereby you FORCE others to do as you wish.

You envision converting the Main Arena to a rolling plane set by means of some sort of system of attrition and perk point reset system, and perking all late war post 1943 planes.

Exactly how does your system not only not FORCE others to fly planes you feel they should, but also not force a wholesale change to the arena to make it work as you feel it should?

Dispute the above. You cannot. Your "dream" system will force people to fly the planes you think they should, creating the rolling planeset effect you desire. To say otherwise is anything but honest. You want the Main Arena to work your way, and to have the planes you want to fly flown. It is as simple as that. Period.

[whels]

just reset perk totals every tour reset, and give everyone 200 perks per catagory to start the tour.

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
If you propose perking late war rides and resetting perks, then yes, whether you like it or not, whether you accept it or not, you are FORCING others to fly planes you prefer them to fly. There is no other possible outcome. You WILL force others to fly early war rides (to EARN:rolleyes:  the right to fly late war rides) every month, period. Explain how ANYTHING else can happen given the system you envision.

First of the month those who would normally fly post 1943 planes as their regular ride would not have perk points. YOU want them reset. YOU would have the post 1943 planes perked. As such, there would be no post 1943 planes available. Thereby you FORCE others to do as you wish.

You envision converting the Main Arena to a rolling plane set by means of some sort of system of attrition and perk point reset system, and perking all late war post 1943 planes.

Exactly how does your system not only not FORCE others to fly planes you feel they should, but also not force a wholesale change to the arena to make it work as you feel it should?

[DoctorYO]

I have in the past given the same exact scenario whels just described on earlier debates on the threads sub topic the perk system (whels not stealing your imput im pretty shure this has been discussed.. if not great idea..      )

Virgil, (heh) yeah virgil..  look your crying a river, read what i said.. then look at your post..  whole lot of what if's and heresay..

read what i said.. take it for what it is..  dont add to it.. take a deep breath, breath..  breath...  then comment..

Dispute the above. You cannot. Your "dream" system will force people to fly the planes you think they should, creating the rolling planeset effect you desire. To say otherwise is anything but honest. You want the Main Arena to work your way, and to have the planes you want to fly flown. It is as simple as that. Period.

your right i cant dispute your heresay becuase it not what i dicussed..  its what you "Dreamed" (heh)  up...

all you need to do is check the score/stats page and see the percentage of kills..  its not rocket science that la7, p51, g10, dora, niki rule AH main arena.. Im not saying eliminate them just give some incentive to fly them in the frequency that they are flown now with impunity..

since you claim im forcing people to do this or that..using that philosophy the current system is forcing me and many others (check the boards on the big 5 threads for your evidence) to endure quakebirds..

Now look i like quake (actually i play counter strike planetside etc..) and i like air warfare; HTC's is the best on the web as of current.  But the two dont mix well...  (actually planetside reaver combat is pretty fun..)


Hopefully TOD will remedy alot of what I have discussed, but imo the biggest problem to main is no attrition model..  how to implement that is HTC's best guess..  I imo think perk system tweaked to keep everyone happy (and it would be dynamic not static as the enviroment changes) would be a good solution to the main arena's monotony.


DoctorYo

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by DoctorYO
I have in the past given the same exact scenario whels just described on earlier debates on the threads sub topic the perk system (whels not stealing your imput im pretty shure this has been discussed.. if not great idea..      )

Virgil, (heh) yeah virgil..  look your crying a river, read what i said.. then look at your post..  whole lot of what if's and heresay..

read what i said.. take it for what it is..  dont add to it.. take a deep breath, breath..  breath...  then comment..

 

your right i cant dispute your heresay becuase it not what i dicussed..  its what you "Dreamed" (heh)  up...

all you need to do is check the score/stats page and see the percentage of kills..  its not rocket science that la7, p51, g10, dora, niki rule AH main arena.. Im not saying eliminate them just give some incentive to fly them in the frequency that they are flown now with impunity..

since you claim im forcing people to do this or that..using that philosophy the current system is forcing me and many others (check the boards on the big 5 threads for your evidence) to endure quakebirds..

Now look i like quake (actually i play counter strike planetside etc..) and i like air warfare; HTC's is the best on the web as of current.  But the two dont mix well...  (actually planetside reaver combat is pretty fun..)


Hopefully TOD will remedy alot of what I have discussed, but imo the biggest problem to main is no attrition model..  how to implement that is HTC's best guess..  I imo think perk system tweaked to keep everyone happy (and it would be dynamic not static as the enviroment changes) would be a good solution to the main arena's monotony.


DoctorYo

I'm not crying about anything. That might be some fantasy of yours but it does not wash. It wouldn't hurt me that much anyway, the late war planes I fly are the P-38J and the P-47D-40, along with the P-38L on attack flights.

Oh, and I never disputed that late war planes and speed demons were dominant. I said that was not a valid reason to take them from the masses that enjoy them.

You view the Main Arena as being monotonous and needing repair, and you wish to change the main arena so that others are forced to fly different planes they do not want to.

There is no "heresay"  to it. Here it is, in your own words:

perk all latewar aircraft , reset perks every month..

that way you would see more perk rides at the end of the tour simulating the war..

[/B]

Do you DENY you said exactly that?

Do you DENY that by doing that you would FORCE people to fly early war planes at the beginning of every month?

Even if you reset the perks to some token number instead of zero, those who prefer the late war low ENY planes will still be handicapped, since they will not earn perk points nearly so fast as they burn them, UNLESS they fly with survival is the absolute objective. Should they do that, you'll only increase the number of timid hit and run late war rides, making a bad problem worse. Some solution.

No one is FORCING you to endure "quakebirds". You make that choice by flying the Main Arena, it has been setup that way since before I came here several years ago. You simply want to change it to suit your specific tastes. You could fly any number of snapshots, squad ops, combat arena events or tours. But you want to take the Main Arena and remake it in the image you desire, regardless of whether you wish to admit it or not.

And since the Main Arena has no real penalty for death, changing it the way you propose will not change the "quakebirds" situation. It will merely change the planes it is played in. What does it REALLY matter what plane it is played in anyway? It doesn't. People who are not driven off by your changes will merely select the best of the pre 1944 planes and play quakebirds with them. Same game, different planes. Just different "unhappy" people.

The Main Arena is simply that, the Main Arena. It has little if any historical basis. It is a free for all arena. There are other arenas if you don't like the Main Arena. There will be TOD as well, if you do not like the Main Arena. The Main Arena is not now, nor has it ever been, historical, and since the Main Arena is designed and intended to be a free for all, and HTC gave us ALL the planes, and only perked a few, I doubt it will be any different in the future.

[Magoo]

What if we can persuade HT to do this:

Put in TWO Melee arenas, identical in all respects except that one arena has the current perk system and the other arena has (insert the most popular proposed perk system here - attrition model, RPS based, perk the late war stuff, etc...). Let the masses vote with their mouse

Do I need to tell you where everyone will be after just a few weeks?

Magoo

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Magoo
What if we can persuade HT to do this:

Put in TWO Melee arenas, identical in all respects except that one arena has the current perk system and the other arena has (insert the most popular proposed perk system here - attrition model, RPS based, perk the late war stuff, etc...). Let the masses vote with their mouse

Do I need to tell you where everyone will be after just a few weeks?

Magoo

I think HiTech has already said (or maybe it was Skuzzy or Pyro) that they WILL NOT create two Main Arenas. The reason being that they do not want to divide the player base (I disagree, but it is their playground).

Myself, I'm not at all opposed to the idea. I think it would give the rolling planeset fans a place to go as well as the early plane fans. I really think it is a better idea.

I might actually fly in both, if both existed. But I'd say the current setup would be by far the most popular. That is not to say fans of the second setup shouldn't have a place to go. However, by most all accounts, they are the minority, and as such they should not expect the majority to fly in an arena designed to suit the minority.

But rather than have a second arena, I'd much rather have any   resources directed towards TOD instead.

As a business, HTC is unlikely to intentionally piss of the majority of their customer base. That would be foolish. That being said, the Main Arena is pretty much as it should be. Oh, and that does not mean I like it all that much better than anyone else.

TOD is (hopefully) the cure for what some think is wrong with the Main Arena. It will be the home of those who don't like "quake plane". I'll likely be there the majority of the time myself. I have enough sense to know the Main Arena is setup the way the majority likes it, and the way it best suits HTC for the majority of their customer base. I'll continue to fly there until something better comes along. I'll fly squad ops as well, and maybe snapshots as well.

[Magoo]

think HiTech has already said (or maybe it was Skuzzy or Pyro) that they WILL NOT create two Main Arenas. The reason being that they do not want to divide the player base (I disagree, but it is their playground).

I thought that might be the case. I was only half serious anyway since I figured if HTC was inclined to do that it would already been done.

I'm with you Cap'n, let's see what TOD is like and accept the Melee arena for what it is. It has it's good points, the most important being it's a target rich environment. All this talk of perk rides makes me want to go grab a SpitXIV and die like a dweeb in it:D

Magoo

[Wilbus]

DoctorYo, when it comes to what I said about endurance in AH, I am right.