Author Topic: Just Talk to Her Already  (Read 3689 times)

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #75 on: August 16, 2005, 08:19:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sakai
[QUOTE
Amazing how the right wing retard PR machine is being out done by a single bereaved mother.

Also amazing that people would stoop to trying to destroy her.

That's sick, irresponsible, and unamerican.

She's in grief, let her complain, that's her right.  

Bush is damned if he does talk to her (well now he had a chance early on, that's gone) and damned if he doesn't.

If he can't explain why her son died then he does have a problem and the 60% of the nation that doesn't have its opinions spoon fed to it by Sean Hannity doesn't believe the president has any creidbility anymore.  Guys like you are talking point queens, all RNC lists of talking points, and no original thought or opinion.

I recall a time when I was proud to be republican because it was the party that preached accountability.   Bush runs his policies on polls and fear tactics, smear anyone who disgarees with you.  The RNC is an out of control disgraceto the nation and conservatism is shallow, baseless, and irresponsible when it fosters hatred and stupidity like it does now.  

Shame on you for repeating such nonsense.  

The GOB has become the party of screaming down anyone who disagrees, zero accountability, pork barrel politics (outstripping even the democrats for sheer greed) and wholesale selling of their tulips to money to be re-elected.  You guys don't stand for anything but staying inpower, you're out of dieas except "smear anyone who we don't lkike".  Wow, what a great way to run a democracy ehhh?  You're shameful and unamerican, leave my country, please.  

You so called Nancy boy conservatives should be ashamed of youserelves, berating a grieving american woman.  What brave boys you all are, go get em tigers!  You are making this an issue by getting into the mud.  Anyone who catcalls the mother of a dead soldier is a waste of protein hugahunk in my book.

Grow up, get your own opinion and stop the hatred.

For god's sake, when will the GOP become men again instead of finger pointing, lying little back stabbing whining crybaby rumor mongers?

Sakai


You operate under the FALSE assumption that Cindy Sheehan's agenda has ANYTHING to to with grief, seeking closure, seeking comfort and consolation, or seeking answers. Cindy Sheehan is politicizing the death of her son, and is making a sad attempt to use his death to gain publicity for her political agenda. But that is by all means all American, right? And calling her on it is un American?

Admit you despise and hate Republicans in general and Bush in particular, and that it colors your judgement to the point you see nothing but your own hatred. It's a fact. You've been ranting like this since Bush was elected the first time. The mere mention of Bush sets you to frothing at the mouth. Anything anti Bush is all American to you, and anyone who has listened to you for the past 5-6 years knows it.

Cindy Sheehan is now a political figure backed by the left's anti war anti Bush movement. Anyone who doesn't see this (or more to the point, refuses to see this) is either completely ignorant and blind, a deluded fool blinded by their hatred of Bush and the conservative/Republican party, or a liar willing to say or do anything for the same motivation and results as the previously mentioned deluded fool.

1. She met with Bush once already, who has met with the families of casualties on at least a dozen times. So did the rest of the family.

2. She didn't complain at all after the first meeting. She said she was satisfied.

3. The entire rest of her family is evidently satisfied with having met with Bush once.

4. Evidently, the rest of the families are satisfied with having met with Bush once.

5. Why should SHE get a SECOND meeting when other families have not had a FIRST? She's not one damned bit better or different than they are. So until EVERY family has had their FIRST visit with Bush, SHE goes to the BACK of the line.

6. She's being backed, supported, and funded by multiple political activist groups from the left, like MoveOn.org, and several others (Howard Dean "leader" of the Democratic party). If this little fiasco has nothing to do with politics, then those groups should SHUT UP AND BUTT OUT.

7. It's a media driven circus, nothing more, nothing less.

8. She's become politicaly active in a very broadly publicized way. This is about politics and not grief. She's now using the death of her son for political purposes, which makes her far sicker than anyone I've seen so far in this fiasco. Evidently, the entire rest of her family agrees. maybe, just maybe, they know better than the rest of us. They sure know HER well enough, better than ANY of us.

9. She has every right to complain and to scream her complaints at the top of her lungs.

10. She's entitled to "protest'' all she wants. It does not mean anyone should meet with her or owes her anything.

You want to know who the REAL un American panty waisted nancy boys are? Those are the gutless simpering cowards on the LEFT, who are using a woman with a dead son ranting against Bush as a human shield. That defines sick, and un American about as well as anything I've seen yet.[/COLOR]
« Last Edit: August 16, 2005, 08:23:24 AM by Captain Virgil Hilts »
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline soda72

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« Reply #76 on: August 16, 2005, 08:25:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dnil
interesting timing on this...dont know if its been posted yet.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0815051sheehan1.html


yeah they mentioned it on the bbc web page as well...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4155186.stm

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #77 on: August 16, 2005, 08:34:26 AM »
yep... sockie.... the mean old republicans did meet with her... the media circus was there... now she wants a do over after telling everyone just what she is gonna say.  

What do you really want?  You want the pres to meet with her (or anyone else with a view) every time she has a new idea on how she thinks?

Maybe you want her to "vent" in a jerry springer/early hippie media circus?

maybe you want Bush to say.. "well... you don't like the war so we will just put a halt to it as soon as I can get my pen out"?

What do you want?

lazs

Offline Gunthr

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« Reply #78 on: August 16, 2005, 08:47:29 AM »
Quote
Amazing how the right wing retard PR machine is being out done by a single bereaved mother. Poor babies. - Sakai


No need to get overwrought.  This is not a crisis for Bush.
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline Gunthr

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« Reply #79 on: August 16, 2005, 08:58:11 AM »
Sakai, I demand that you change your name immediately.  You cannot festoon yourself with the appearance of clear-eyed perception by putting on a name as though it were a jacket.
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #80 on: August 16, 2005, 09:09:38 AM »
Dear Sakai,

Normally, I don't dip into anecdotal evidence in order to prove a point, but my reaction to Sheehan doesn't come from "RNC talking points." I pastor a church literally filled with men who have already done tours in Afghanistan and Iraq, many of whom will end up doing more. We pray for them when they go, and we pray for them when by the grace of God they return home. I have also counseled and grieved with those who have lost their loved ones over there, so I know a little about the "grieving process" for those losing their kids, husbands, or fathers in Iraq and Afghanistan. I've also spoken to young men in the army who have turned against the war, specifically one was a young sergeant and the other a very young pfc, both of whom were profoundly influenced by Farenheit 9/11 and saw their own service in Iraq through that lens. Both of them showed their disgust by choosing not to re-up. It is also possible to decline service in Iraq, although it will adversely affect one's career. So no one has to go to Iraq, no one, its a voluntary decision each of those soldiers makes and incidentally, and I reinforce this in my own preaching and teaching, no soldier should fight in a war he is sure sinful. "I was only following orders" holds no water at all.

My congregation is mostly composed of first generation Christians, so in many cases their beliefs are 180 degrees removed from those of their parents. In more than one case their parents are opposed to their religion, to their serving in their military, to their politics, to theie child-rearing practices, and so on. In one case, I remember shaking the hand of a visiting father at the end of the service even as he was launching into a railing diatribe against conservatives, Bush, the war, corporations and so on. His son, is literally the antithesis of his father.

I say all that to make the following points. Thankfully, this is not the way most or even "many" family members grieve, its not even healthy. She has channeled her grief into a passionate hatred for an individual. Already that hate is destroying her life - her kids have begged her "come home, we need you here," her husband has filed for divorce, and she has become estranged from most of her other relatives. Meanwhile the "compassionate" left is encouraging her to continue on a course that serves their ends but at the cost of her family and her life. In a sense, its like when the IRA encouraged men to go on hunger strikes till they died "for the movement" saying it was for their families, when in the end all the families gained was more death and misery. She will end up far more twisted, hate-consumed and desperately unhappy at the end of this than when she began, and I say that with a great deal of pity, not as a neo-con but as a Pastor who would be saying it if the conflict had been Somalia and she had been camping outside of Clinton's residence.    

I pulled up the other day behind a car with a back window logo "In memory of Ernesto Blanco, Iraq, 12/28/2003" I don't normally weep at stoplights, but Ernie was in my Bible Study, he was an upstanding officer and a man so profoundly loved that one of his men had put his name on the back of his tricked out Civic. Those men were honoring the memory of a man who would have done anything for his guys and did. Now how do you think it would have made them feel, who remember Ernie and the man that he was - his ideals and his courage, if his mother had begun this roadside vigil? That's not for him, that's for her, they would have concluded. She is actually "disrespecting" him and his memory is what they would conclude.

And Sakai, please believe me, most of them see this as aimed at them, aimed at everything they are trying to do. Most of them don't particularly enjoy the war, or Iraq, or all of the messes that exist over there, but with a couple of exceptions, every one I have talked to is appalled at the idea that we would be willing to squander their sacrifices and those of their buddies and run away at this point. They also can't understand why nothing good they do over there gets reported, and they and their families are actually more HURT than HELPED by spectacles like Sheehans, and don't tell me that's baloney, because thats what they've TOLD ME.

So please, don't play the "this is not politics its grieving and compassion" game because I live in the midst of the world that really does grieve over the names that get reported from Iraq and Afghanistan and Sheehan's kind of "grieving" is neither good, nor normal, nor healthy.

- SEAGOON
« Last Edit: August 16, 2005, 09:18:27 AM by Seagoon »
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Sakai

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« Reply #81 on: August 16, 2005, 11:21:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon
Dear Sakai,

- SEAGOON


Doubtful on several counts, here's why:

Clinton didn't start Somalia, Bush senior did.   Regardless, I wouldn't care who protested it or why:  that's their right.  

My Nephew served as well, so what?  He gives me anecdotal evidence I pass on, but sure, I hear the opposite of his view.  So what?

I also see zero significance in any of this regarding how many are first, second or even eighth generation Christians, that's absolutely irrelevant as is much of the stuff you note.  It's great stuff, but not germane to the point at hand.  You're talking personal and I accept your experience without question, I'm talking nation wide and global and the evidence is rather obvious and compelling.  

Here is where I disagree with you:  You act as if you have a special insight on grieving, you don't.  Grief is personal and individual and this woman is working hers out in the way she can and wants to, demonizing her is sick and unamerican--period.  You are judging her, might gander into that bible of yours to see what Christ said about that.  I'm in a ministry as well, I wont discuss it in context of politics like you will because I think Christ specifically said to keep those separate. and frankly, your playing that card sickens me.  I am fed up with the politicization of religion my friend, and you should be too.  

I appreciate your servivce to our servicemen and women, they need it, I have several loved ones in the service or who served honorably.  But saying you personally believe x or y is also irrelevant as it pertains to the question of the right wing hate machine geared up to smear and attack any citizen who expresses their Constitutional right to ask for redress of grievances.  Disagree with teh c in c and pay personally. How proud we should be.  You can say anything you want, but you'd be excusing and rationalizing what you know to be true:  the right wing has become a hate and smear machine and your post, while filled with great stuff, does not address that simple fact.

If you don't see yourself in my slam, don't respond:  it wasn't aimed at you.

Look, weeping for the dead is understandable, but no one dishonors them but you if you support a corrupt group of power mad liars that send them to death.  I suppose more should die so no one brings up any disquieting issues like "gee, should we be there?"  So because they're being slaughtered needlessly we shame them by asking why?  Uhhh, explain that to me?  

That is neither logic nor acceptable reasoning.  It's her kid, how dare you say she has to do x or y regarding his memory.  How dare you imply that stopping such stupidity dishonors those that died.  Stop waving the flag and think about what you're saying mate.

Oh, didn't see you address another basic fact:  Bush has looked this nation right in the eye and lied about many, many things.  If someone feels their child died for a lie, god forgive you for judging them.

Just saying,

Sakai
"The P-40B does all the work for you . . ."

Offline Raider179

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« Reply #82 on: August 16, 2005, 12:23:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
There's no need to satisfy you at all.

She already HAD her private meeting.

She already stated that her views on the war have not changed because of her son's death.

She just missed her chance to vent the first time apparently and she wants another go at it. And if that one proves insufficient or unfulfilling, she'll want another one.

As I said, it's a media event more than anything else.


Sorry, what I meant by that is a no camera meeting should be satisfactory to her..

She stated the downing memo "confirmed" her suspicions on the war. So her views have changed.

Maybe she was intimidated by meeting the President, I know I would be.

No third meeting.

It wouldnt be a media event if Bush would have seen her the 1st day.... It's only one because he refuses to speak to her, otherwise it would just be another greiving mother. Karl Rove must be busy or got other things on his mind to be blowing it this badly.

He is going to have to meet with her. It's inevitable imo.

I agree she wants to vent and you know Bush should be man enough to be able to deal with it. Not make her sit outside his ranch for 9 days.  Where is the uniter not a divider? Where is his human compassion to ease a mother's suffering? All he has to do is let her ***** at him. Small price to pay to help a woman who is greiving over the death of her son in Iraq.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #83 on: August 16, 2005, 12:36:41 PM »
Think what you like.

I don't thinks this is about Cindy grieving for her son anymore. Sorry.

She can camp out until November of '08 for all I care. She had her chance to chew out Bush face to face and she passed.

Bush has met with more than 200 families of dead servicemen. Check the records and see if any other wartime President has done anything like that.

I don't particularly favor Bush; as I said I didn't vote for him in 2004.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Raider179

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« Reply #84 on: August 16, 2005, 12:49:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
You operate under the FALSE assumption that Cindy Sheehan's agenda has ANYTHING to to with grief, seeking closure, seeking comfort and consolation, or seeking answers. Cindy Sheehan is politicizing the death of her son, and is making a sad attempt to use his death to gain publicity for her political agenda. But that is by all means all American, right? And calling her on it is un American?

Cindy Sheehan is now a political figure backed by the left's anti war anti Bush movement. Anyone who doesn't see this (or more to the point, refuses to see this) is either completely ignorant and blind, a deluded fool blinded by their hatred of Bush and the conservative/Republican party, or a liar willing to say or do anything for the same motivation and results as the previously mentioned deluded fool.

1. She met with Bush once already, who has met with the families of casualties on at least a dozen times. So did the rest of the family.

2. She didn't complain at all after the first meeting. She said she was satisfied.

3. The entire rest of her family is evidently satisfied with having met with Bush once.

4. Evidently, the rest of the families are satisfied with having met with Bush once.

5. Why should SHE get a SECOND meeting when other families have not had a FIRST? She's not one damned bit better or different than they are. So until EVERY family has had their FIRST visit with Bush, SHE goes to the BACK of the line.

6. She's being backed, supported, and funded by multiple political activist groups from the left, like MoveOn.org, and several others (Howard Dean "leader" of the Democratic party). If this little fiasco has nothing to do with politics, then those groups should SHUT UP AND BUTT OUT.

7. It's a media driven circus, nothing more, nothing less.

8. She's become politicaly active in a very broadly publicized way. This is about politics and not grief. She's now using the death of her son for political purposes, which makes her far sicker than anyone I've seen so far in this fiasco. Evidently, the entire rest of her family agrees. maybe, just maybe, they know better than the rest of us. They sure know HER well enough, better than ANY of us.

9. She has every right to complain and to scream her complaints at the top of her lungs.

10. She's entitled to "protest'' all she wants. It does not mean anyone should meet with her or owes her anything.



Her political Agenda is for more mothers to not go through what she has. Let that sink in real deep and think about it.

She is a figurehead, now. And the longer he refuses to meet with her, the larger she will become, as both a figurehead and a black mark on his presidency.

1)You guys act like there is some rule where you get 1 presidential meeting and then you cant ever see him again. Where is that rule exactly? I missed it.

2)Oh sorry, Guess in America you cant change your mind anymore without it being an issue. Kinda like when Bush said he would fire anyone involved in releasing Valerie Plume's identity and then later changed it to anyone "charged" in releasing her identity. Kinda changing your mind like that?

3)Really? How do you know that? Which one of her family have you seen say that?

4)double post

5)That is hilarious. She is right outside the ranch. He could have her walk in and not waste more than Five minutes of his own "valuable" time.  I don't see any other single person who has lost a family member in Iraq sitting outside Crawford demanding their own meeting with the Pres. Just Her.

It breaks my heart to think about a family weeping over the loss of a loved one," Bush said. "I also have heard the voices of those saying pull out now, and I've thought about their cry and their sincere desire to reduce the loss of life by pulling our troops out. I just strongly disagree." Later, the White House released a list of 24 occasions at which Bush has met with about 900 family members of 272 fallen soldiers.

http://politics.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/leavingiraqnownotwisebushsays

6)Why should she not accept help? Who else is gonna help her? The Repubs? Maybe the swift boat people will show up and volunteer to help...:rolleyes: How could it not be about politics? It involves politicians....

7)Like I said if Bush would have met her earlier all the wind woulda left that sail. Bush would have given his standard noble cause speech and she would not have soundbites or media attention. The longer he continues to not meet with her, the worse it will get.

8)I think it involves both. Her grief has affected her politics. What is wrong with that? Her life changed and the way she sees the world changed. But you keep on speaking for her and her family. Link me to anything you have where the immediate family (husband, other son, daughters) say what you claim....

9)It is her right and she shouldn't get trashed because she is exercising it. She is a mother on a cause and you don't agree with the cause so you attack her personally. Real low...

10)Bush by no means "has" to meet with her, but it will be a mark on his presidency if he never does.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2005, 12:53:59 PM by Raider179 »

Offline Gunthr

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« Reply #85 on: August 16, 2005, 01:32:43 PM »
Quote
He is going to have to meet with her. It's inevitable imo. - Raider


I really don't think so.  What is it that will force Bush to engage in a dog and pony show with her?  It certainly isn't public opinion.
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline Raider179

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« Reply #86 on: August 16, 2005, 01:33:12 PM »
Amazing the ugliness this has brought out of some people.

http://www.kwtx.com/news/headlines/1686471.html

Larry Northern, 59, of McLennan County, was charged Tuesday with Criminal Mischief Over $1,500 and under $20,000 after a pickup truck tore through a row of white crosses erected by anti-war protesters gathered near the President’s ranch in Crawford.

Bail was set at $3,000.

The crosses bear the names of U.S. military personnel who have died in the war in Iraq.

Witnesses said the driver swerved the truck in and out of the makeshift memorial Monday night.

The protesters who are camped out in Crawford expressed outrage at the vandalism.

Offline Gunthr

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« Reply #87 on: August 16, 2005, 01:40:04 PM »
It doesn't matter whether anybody trashes her or not.  Everyone has a right to an opinion, not just "Cindy."

Raider, you have a fantasy that Bush is in a trick box.  He is not.  You've been reading too many blogs.  

When Bush goes back to Washington she can follow him there and camp out in the parks and pavillions where the government roach coaches will feed them for free.  Some have stayed there through administration after administration.
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #88 on: August 16, 2005, 01:44:55 PM »
Hi Raider,

Ok let me expand on my previous analogy and then ask you some questions.

Let us say that my call to Pastor this church ends and I get a call to become a missionary in Indonesia with MTW (our denominational Missions organization). I go out to there and while I'm there, I volunteer to help a friend struggling in one of the most heavily Islamist districts of his city. While ministering there I am killed by an angry Muslim mob.

Now let us say that my parents meet with the leaders of MTW who share how sorry they are that I died while carrying out the call I volunteered for, but while assuring them that the cause I died for was ultimately a good one and that consequently my death was not in vain.

Let us assume that my parents were highly atheistic to begin with and not too happy about missions and definitely not happy about me going. But in any event they shake hands with the MTW head, and have their meeting. Then later let us assume that memos are released that claim that MTW leaders knew that the "prospects" for successfully evangelizing that area were just about zero and that there were already several death threats that had been circulated.

So then let us assume that my mother (sorry mom, this is all hypothetical) forms an anti-missions group calling for the immediate recall of all missionaries, and for the trial and removal of the head of MTW. Then she camps out in front of his office and calls him nasty names. Let us also assume that she is joined and supported by atheist and anti-Christian groups. In the meantime the family falls apart, and she gets divorced because of her quest.

So you're telling me:

1) The head of MTW should arrange for a second face to face with her so she can scream abuse at him and demand the end of missions and that this would somehow be "therapeutic" and "help her."
2) That the head of MTW is responsible for my death when I twice volunteered to do somthing I believed in when I knew in advance it was highly  dangerous?
3) That the head of MTW and not the Islamists who killed me should be the ones held responsible because of what a few memos claim about information potentially available?
4) This would be a legitimate use of my name and memory?
5) That that would be "healthy" and "natural" grieving and "not ideological?"
6) That the other groups with a pre-existing agenda jumping in would not be a shameless misuse of her misguided grief?
7) That my staying at home and staying "safe" is always better than giving up my life to try to accomplish something I believe in?
8) That she must be held above all reproach regardless of what she does and says because she is my mother and I died?

I'm sorry, I know I'm thick as a plank, but I'm just not seeing how the answer to all these is "Yes"

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
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Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #89 on: August 16, 2005, 01:51:44 PM »
Sakai
 So you know this women then?  You know her motivations? Or are you speculating just like everyone else on this thread about why she is doing it?