IDF says "building collapsed 8 hours after the attack"

[Angus]

Civilians are going to die. Isarelis are definately stomping on innocents while Hibollah wasnt's the things to be exactly that way.
Ugly business.

[Nashwan]

Before the Israelis started "countermeasure", the Hisbollah had in reasonably short time, lobbed some 1.200 missiles at Israel populated areas from within Lebanes area.

Hezbollah fired rockets into Israel up to the Israeli pullout from south Lebanon in 2000. Following that pullout, Hezbollah and Israel engaged in occasional border clashes, usually, but not always, initiated by Hezbollah. They were restricted to military targets.

The only Israeli civilian killed by fire from Lebanon in the period between the Israeli pullout in 2000 and the begining of July was a 16 year old boy killed by an anti aircraft shell fired by Hezbollah at an Israeli aircraft flying over Lebanon. The shell failed to explode and fell into an Israeli village.

On 12th July Hezbollah attacked an Israeli patrol along the border, and fired a small number of rockets at two Israeli military positions as a diversion.

It wasn't until later in the day, at about the same time as Israel began shelling and bombing targets in Lebanon, that Hezbollah began firing missiles at Israeli cities.

The Israeli government gave figures for the number of rockets fired at Israel. As of 20th July, they said between 700 and 800 missiles had been fired by Hezbollah, and gave the following breakdown:

13/07/06 - 125
14/07/06 - 103
15/07/06 - 116
16/07/06 - 47
17/07/06 - 91
18/07/06 - 136
19/07/06 - 116
Total - 734

As they said 7 - 800 missiles fired, there cannot have been a large number on the 12th, and no figures are given for them.

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Nashwan
and fired a small number of rockets at two Israeli military positions as a diversion.

What military positions are there near Shlomi?

[Nashwan]

No idea. I'm going by the Unifil report of events.

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Nashwan
No idea. I'm going by the Unifil report of events.

I can't find any reports from UNIFIL on July 12, can you point me to a source?


EDIT:  I think I found what you are referring to.

"3. The crisis started when, around 9 a.m. local time, Hizbollah launched several rockets from Lebanese territory across the withdrawal line (the so-called Blue Line) towards Israel Defense Forces (IDF) positions near the coast and in the area of the Israeli town of Zarit."

http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N06/437/22/IMG/N0643722.pdf?OpenElement

[Nashwan]

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/unifilDrp.htm

Their description of the events of the 12th:

The crisis started when, around 9 a.m. local time, Hizbollah launched several
rockets from Lebanese territory across the withdrawal line (the so-called Blue Line)
towards Israel Defense Forces (IDF) positions near the coast and in the area of the
Israeli town of Zarit. In parallel, Hizbollah fighters crossed the Blue Line into Israel
and attacked an IDF patrol. Hizbollah captured two IDF soldiers, killed three others
and wounded two more. The captured soldiers were taken into Lebanon. Subsequent
to the attack on the patrol, a heavy exchange of fire ensued across the Blue Line
between Hizbollah and IDF: While the exchange of fire stretched over the entire
length of the Line, it was heaviest in the areas west of Bint Jubayl and in the Shab'a
farms area. Hizbollah targeted IDF positions and Israeli towns south of the Blue
Line. Israel retaliated by ground, air and sea attacks. In addition to airstrikes on
Hizbollah positions, IDF targeted numerous roads and bridges in southern Lebanon
within and outside the UNIFIL area of operations. IDF has stated that those attacks
were to "prevent Hizbollah from transferring the abducted soldiers". At least one
IDF tank and an IDF platoon crossed into Lebanon in the area of the Hizbollah
attack in an attempt to rescue the captured soldiers. An explosive device detonated
under the tank, killing four more IDF soldiers. An eighth IDF soldier was reportedly
killed in fighting that ensued during an attempt to retrieve the four bodies.

Edit: Yes, that's the report. The link above has the 6 monthly UNIFIL reports going back to 1997.

[FUNKED1]

Originally posted by Hawco
what about the thousands of Palastinian people who have been kidnapped by the Israelis ?

Well you have to remember that Palestinians, Iraqis, Lebanese and the like are not worth as much as humans (e.g. Israelis, Americans, Saudis).  There is an exchange rate.  The exchange rate for Iraqis to Americans is about 13:1 if you look at 9/11 deaths vs. Iraqi civilian deaths in the War on Terror.  I don't know the exact figures for Israelis.  But they seem to be really strong in the market right now.  Two Israeli soldiers kidnapped are apparently worth 1000+ lebanese civilians.  So the going rate could be as high as 500 to 1.  Which means that thousands of Palestinians kidnapped are actually only handful of humans kidnapped, and we shouldn't worry about it.  Sleep well.

[bozon]

Originally posted by Angus
Before the Israelis started "countermeasure", the Hisbollah had in reasonably short time, lobbed some 1.200 missiles at Israel populated areas from within Lebanes area.

As Nashwan has corrected, before the 12th, Hizballa did not fire any rockets since the pull out in 2000. They did however stage periodic attacks on Israeli army positions (on the Israeli side) along the border. Generally, they'd be carful not to "push it" in order to get a proportional Israeli response - getting one or two of their outposts bombed while they are prepared for it. This has been going on for 6 years without Lebanon or the UN doing anything about it. The disproportional response was intended to break this cycle.

As for rockets fired figures there's a difference between the numbers given by the military and those given by the goverment. Basically the military count every rocket they tracked in the air. The reason is that they are mostly interested in knowing how many rockets the Hizballa still have and are they being resupplied. Many of these rockets landed in fields or in the sea and were not found. The numbers the goverment issue are rockets whose landing location was found as the bomb squads clears them.
Several more rockets are found every day by farmers and park workers.

[straffo]

Originally posted by Angus
And then a question for Straffo. How would you feel about it if a Neo-Nazi organization, not admitting the French property of Elsass and Lotringen, had lobbed 1000+ rockets at Strasbourg from German territory, while the German army stood idly by.

1st it's Alsace and Lorraine

2nd your comparaison don't work.
Until last year Lebanon was under tight control by Syria, Lebanese army is just a joke even currently, you say it's idle ... certainly but do you really think it can move ?
Even the IDF wich is incredibly more efficient has trouble with the Hezbollah how  can a ghost army expect success ? with the help of  the Saoudian special forces ?

[deSelys]

Just like the lebanese people should leave the areas where the hezbollah has installed their rocket launchers (and disregarding the fact that the israelis are bombing the roads), the israeli people living in range of said hezbollah's rockets should leave and move further south.


No offence to you Bozon, Caligula and other posters living over there, my post is aimed as those simpletons armchair analysts whose solutions are always 'well they just should...'

[lazs2]

probly if you aren't strong enough to wage a war you shouldn't be poking at the neighbor who is.

You will probly suffer dissproportunate causualties.    If you don't want the war you should probly make sure that none of your citizens make war for you and if they do.... you should tell the country they are bothering that you are doing everything you can to stop it and...

even... allow said countries soldiers to help you root out the hez-ebola virus.

Otherwise... you might get dissproportunate casualties.... and... it will be your own fault.


About the thousands of innocent "palestinians" kidnapped by the evil jews....  Why do they do that?  Must be expensive and boring...  What do they hope to accomplish by that..

oh... and funked.. next time you are in the teachers lounge... ask em for me how they get those poor nobel "palestinians" to stay in the houses while they drive take the 20 minutes or an hour it takes to bulldoze one wouldja?

And... could ya maybe get jordan and syria to give back the land they took from the poor "palestinians"?   I guess that if jordan and syria do it it is ok tho.... just not the jews?

lazs

[Gunslinger]

Yet another twist in the propaganda war.  

Lebanese rescue teams did not start evacuating the building until the morning and only after the camera crews came. The absence of a real rescue effort was explained by saying that equipment was lacking. There were no scenes of live or injured people being extracted.
There was little blood, CNN's Wedeman noted: all the victims, he concluded, appeared to have died while as they were sleeping -- sleeping, apparently, through thunderous Israeli air attacks. Rescue workers equipped with cameras were removing the bodies from the same opening in the collapsed structure. Journalists were not allowed near the collapsed building.

Rescue workers filmed as they went carried the victims on the stretchers, occasionally flipping up the blankets so that cameras could show the faces and bodies of the dead.

But Israelis steeled to scenes of carnage from Palestinian suicide bombings and Hezbollah rocket attack could not help but notice that these victims did not look like our victims. Their faces were ashen gray. While medical examination clearly is called for to arrive at a definitive dating and cause of their deaths, they do not appear to have died hours before. The bodies looked like they had been dead for days.

Viewers can judge for themselves. But the accumulating evidence suggests another explanation for what happened at Kana. The scenario would be a setup in which the time between the initial Israeli bombing near the building and morning reports of its collapse would have been used to "plant" bodies killed in previous fighting -- reports in previous days indicated that nearby Tyre was used as a temporary morgue -- place them in the basement, and then engineer a "controlled demolition" to fake another Israeli attack.

The well-documented use by Palestinians of this kind of faked footage -- from the alleged shooting of Mohammed Dura in Gaza, scenes from Jenin of "dead" victims falling off gurneys and then climbing back on -- have merited the creation of a new film genre called "Palliwood."

There is increasing evidence that the Kana sequel is another episode in this genre, a variety which might be called Hezbollywood. The Hezbollah have evidently learned their craft well.

[soda72]

Palliwood."

[mora]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
Yet another twist in the propaganda war.

Can you give a link please.

[Nashwan]

The source for that article is http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Diplomacy/8997.htm

It's full of glaring errors.

For example:

Lebanese rescue teams did not start evacuating the building until the morning and only after the camera crews came.

In which case the BBC must have been very slow off the mark, as they showed ambulances driving past them leaving the site as the BBC was still heading towards it.

Rescue workers equipped with cameras were removing the bodies from the same opening in the collapsed structure. Journalists were not allowed near the collapsed building.

The BBC's Fergal Keene was right by the building reporting:


The BBC news report is at:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5232434.stm#
(Edit: direct link doesn't work, Video and Audio, Reports and analysis, then  "Dozens killed in Lebanon air raid")

But Israelis steeled to scenes of carnage from Palestinian suicide bombings and Hezbollah rocket attack could not help but notice that these victims did not look like our victims. Their faces were ashen gray.

Getting pulled out of a collapsed building in a hot dusty enviroment tends to do that to you. Lots of dust about.

The few shots of bodies in the BBC report (the BBC tends not to linger on the bodies) certainly don't show anything inconsistent with recent deaths.

Of course, people will still choose to believe a blantant progaganda piece (although maybe not for too long, the IDF is already changing their story on Qana, and more details are likely to emerge in the next few days and weeks)