Author Topic: The night witches  (Read 4308 times)

Offline Tigeress

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« Reply #75 on: October 20, 2007, 01:49:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Tigress, didn't you make the claim in one of your threads that women make the best fight pilots due to their ability to multi-task better than men and some other factors?

I've been wondering if you have any proof to support that opinion.

For example, has there been an overwhelming percentage of women pilots getting the Distinguished Graduate award at Top Gun or Red Flag when compared to the number of males vs females in those classes?

Are their any women since WW2 that have air-to-air kills or that have made Ace status?

I've just been curious about that statement since you made it.

Thanks.


Oh yes Toad... there are plenty of references to back that up.

Apparently we have a link between the left and right side of the brain that allows multi-tasking and that link is missing in male brains.

I will research it and provide references.

and FWTW, women have been repeatedly measured by a number of groups to have the ability to handle G-forces better than men, of all things.

That was a surprise to me. The multi-tasking thing I have known about for years. Its really quite funny. Ask a man a question who is actively concentrating on doing something and he either has to ignore you or quite what he is doing to answer the question.

Then try it on women. hahahaha

It's really profound, in my view.

There are men who have that link and women who don't but they are not the norm.

I will get back to you on this multi-tasking thing.

TIGERESS

EDIT: Added these links and information:

Multi-tasking reference

other male/female brain differences

Men and Women Have Different Brains: Brain Sex

SEX ON THE BRAIN; WHY WOMEN, MEN REALLY ARE OF TWO MINDS

An Excerpt from the last link:

"MULTI-TASKING

Men are better than women at focusing on one task and completing it. Women's brains excel at multi-tasking, which like many of their traits has origins in childbearing: "You're not just going to sit and stare at your baby. You have to process a demand from your child and move on to different tasks." In the brain, this means more connections across the corpus callosum, which divides the brain into two halves."
« Last Edit: October 20, 2007, 02:32:07 PM by Tigeress »

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #76 on: October 20, 2007, 02:18:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tigeress
Apparently we have a link between the left and right side of the brain that allows multi-tasking and that link is missing in male brains.
 


Tigeress, I don't know if you're refering to the corpus callosum but being ambidextrous I studied this a bit a while back. I found it is believed people who are ambidextrous often have a thicker corpus callosum which provides faster and/or more communication between the left and right brain hemispheres. I can assure you that there aren't many who are less able to multitask than I. Once I am focused on something I can and do ignore almost everything else. I don't think this explains a woman's better ability to multitask which I won't deny.
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Offline Tigeress

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« Reply #77 on: October 20, 2007, 02:36:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
Tigeress, I don't know if you're refering to the corpus callosum but being ambidextrous I studied this a bit a while back. I found it is believed people who are ambidextrous often have a thicker corpus callosum which provides faster and/or more communication between the left and right brain hemispheres. I can assure you that there aren't many who are less able to multitask than I. Once I am focused on something I can and do ignore almost everything else. I don't think this explains a woman's better ability to multitask which I won't deny.


I believe you can multi-task!

There some men who have the brain wiring to do what most women can do; multi-task... and some women who don't have that wiring and can't.

See the link on my previous post about connections across the corpus callosum.

TIGERESS
« Last Edit: October 20, 2007, 02:46:39 PM by Tigeress »

Offline Tigeress

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« Reply #78 on: October 20, 2007, 05:37:00 PM »
Hi Toad,

I have found no evidence that women have been allowed to fly in real air to air combat until rather recently thus no evidence that women have shot down another fighter yet, since WWII.

It will no doubt happen though as more women are flying fighters for our country and for other countries.

There is, however, records of a female commanding a B-2 Bomber making bombing runs in Iraq.

There may or may not be air to ground attacks that have been carried out and there are female A-10 Warthog drivers. Their pictures are on this thread.

TIGERESS
« Last Edit: October 20, 2007, 05:40:33 PM by Tigeress »

Offline Toad

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« Reply #79 on: October 20, 2007, 10:21:38 PM »
Well, do you have any evidence that women take a disproportionate share of the top honors (Distinguished Graduate) at Top Gun or Red Flag?

Or any other nation's fighter combat school? Are women taking a disproportionate share of the top honors in the RAF or the IAF?

I see your studies on various aspects that may influence success in air combat.

What I'd like to see is some evidence that actually backs up the statement about being better fighter pilots. Who are they? How many of them are there? How did they prove they were the best?
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Offline AKIron

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« Reply #80 on: October 20, 2007, 10:48:06 PM »
Tigeress, I think we may have different ideas about what multi-tasking is. I freely admit that I am very poor at it. That may not mean the same to you as it does to me. I've flown cessnas and pipers and have about 40 hours of time in the left seat. I have no problem with this. I consider flying and navigating a plane to be a single task.

The only fighter a/c I've flown are computer sims but I consider those to be single tasks also and have no trouble with them. The problem comes when there is another task outside of what I've defined a task for my focus. If for example I'm caught up in a computer sim and someone wants to have a rl chat at the same time. This becomes an additional task and I cannot divide my attention adequately between the two.

Multi-tasking for men and women may be two separate concepts.
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Offline Tigeress

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« Reply #81 on: October 21, 2007, 09:26:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
Tigeress, I think we may have different ideas about what multi-tasking is. I freely admit that I am very poor at it. That may not mean the same to you as it does to me. I've flown cessnas and pipers and have about 40 hours of time in the left seat. I have no problem with this. I consider flying and navigating a plane to be a single task.

The only fighter a/c I've flown are computer sims but I consider those to be single tasks also and have no trouble with them. The problem comes when there is another task outside of what I've defined a task for my focus. If for example I'm caught up in a computer sim and someone wants to have a rl chat at the same time. This becomes an additional task and I cannot divide my attention adequately between the two.

Multi-tasking for men and women may be two separate concepts.


mmmm.... yes. I think it has to do with brain hemisphere switching for men.

Without the link between the left and right brain halves, men have to switch back and forth between the the two and some can do it quickly... pausing one task momentarily, doing the other momentarily, switching back and forth.

For us, it's streaming two or more threads simultaniously instead of switching focus back and forth between left and right sides. Bringing two or more tasks together as a larger task... hard to put into words.

I very much try to stay away from "better than" thinking. I see that as something men do for reasons of self-worth and such.

I am team oriented, coperatively oriented, in effect "team results oriented." It's natural.

Additionally, living in a world dominated by males has its affect on you. Like Lilya, the Russian ace fighter pilot and the Night Witches, I work more for the common good and apply my talents and strength towards that end.

Regardless of how well I do something I will never be seen as an equal by men, generally speaking. I tried that early on in my life... and just got beat down... as Lilya did on her last sorte. She died... I live.

So with that framing, I say... we are equally human and have found that to be quite unargueable.

What I said to Lazs was "women can be just as good as, or better", when it comes to flying, and flying in combat.

This will be proven out as history proceeds down the timeline... we are flying in combat roles now... even though our numbers are comapritively small relative to men presently.

TIGERESS

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #82 on: October 21, 2007, 09:46:42 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tigeress
and FWTW, women have been repeatedly measured by a number of groups to have the ability to handle G-forces better than men, of all things.



G  what?



:D
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #83 on: October 21, 2007, 09:47:34 AM »
Well, excuse me for pressing the issue but what you said in the Women's Suffrage thread was this (if you are looking for the post, 10-06-2007 08:09 AM):

Quote
Originally posted by Tigeress
Yup... and to that I can add... females make better combat pilots, all other things being equal.

Our brains are wired to be truly multi-tasking... and the lack of being ego bound allows for clearer thinking in certian situations.
We are team oriented much more so than the male lone-wolf.

TIGERESS


True, you didn't say fighter pilots, you said combat pilots. That's a slightly broader category but one that encompasses fighter pilots.

So, do you have any data that would support this? Again, something like stats from the various combat flight schools that show that women earn a disproportionate share of the Distinguished Graduate awards? This would cover the fighter schools, fighter/bomber schools, bomber schools and even tanker crew training.

Anything to support that statement that "females make better combat pilots"? Something based in real world experience?
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #84 on: October 21, 2007, 09:59:14 AM »
tigress...sooo... multitasking is the only thing that makes for a good fighter pilot?

You realize that women see differently than men too?  that while they have better color recognition.. they can't track fast moving objects as well.

I would think that is why they...despite you saying they are the best... never really finish in the top ranks.

multitasking is probly not as important as being able to see what is going on.

I don't know what you think is holding em back... Are men cheating in flight school?   Why wouldn't we want women flying to boost our dismal kill ratio?   Why wouldn't the enemy want em to slaughter our single minded clumsy male pilots?

lazs

Offline Viking

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« Reply #85 on: October 21, 2007, 01:28:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
How can we be equal if I can beat up a man who insults me in a vile way but not a woman?

Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
All this equality stuff and civilized stuff and "we are not cavemen anymore" stuff is fine... fine until the crap hits the fan.

When there is a disaster.. a riot.. a famine.. whatever... even here with something as mild as a hurricane or a riot over a verdict..

Well.. then thousands of years of instinct take over.. and the civilized  veneer leaves.. women revert to their role and men to theirs.

It is the civilized veneer that is false not the instinct.

lazs

Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
for you equal people... should I be able to punch out a woman who is mouthy?   One that hits or slaps me?

Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
Do you think that a man should be able to beat up a woman who insults him just as he would another man?   If a woman hits or slaps me should I be able to beat her up?


First of all “equality” does not mean “equal” in this context. Equality means equal rights and opportunities. In my part of the world it is not socially acceptable for you to punch out or beat up anyone, male or female, for any reason except self defence. In fact a simple slap across the face is punishable by up to 6 months in jail. This also includes other forms of “bodily insult” (Norwegian legal definition) such as scratching, hair tugging etc. Mind you, if there is real damage done (not just infliction of pain or humiliation) the punishment is 3 to 5 years in jail. Break my nose and I’ll see you in 3 to 5.

If someone hits me I won’t hit back unless the assault continues and I have to defend myself. If such a situation arises I will apply violence as necessary without delay or remorse to a point where I consider myself no longer at risk of harm. However I will apply violence not out of revenge or because I’m angry, but because it is necessary.


Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
I have been hit by women but have never hit one back... how bout you guys?


I have never been hit by a woman, nor have I ever hit one. Unlike alpha-male a-holes, I’m a gentleman and have never given a woman reason to hit me. With the exception of training in the army, and an arranged “fight” I had in high school, I have never hit, or been hit by a man either.


Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
All this equality stuff and civilized stuff and "we are not cavemen anymore" stuff is fine... fine until the crap hits the fan.

When there is a disaster.. a riot.. a famine.. whatever... even here with something as mild as a hurricane or a riot over a verdict..

Well.. then thousands of years of instinct take over.. and the civilized  veneer leaves.. women revert to their role and men to theirs.

It is the civilized veneer that is false not the instinct.


It is exactly when “the crap hits the fan” that it is most important to be civilised. We all do as we’re thought and your background as a biker criminal does not make you a fine example of the American male. I suspect a different set of rules guided your life back then. And just because you people start shooting at each other and behave like barbarians when a natural disaster strikes doesn’t mean everyone does. Other countries do get hit by natural disasters too, and we tend to try to help each other during such events. We are civilised.


Quote
Originally posted by Tigeress
Why are males driven to dominate? …To the point of controlling every Country?

Quote
Originally posted by Tigeress
We have an intellect capacity that puts us on par with males but not the gender instinct to dominate them, gender to gender, in the main.

Quote
Originally posted by Tigeress
Males are wired, by testosterone, to dominate... to the point of controlling every country.
That includes an instinct to dominate us... the females of the species.


Upbringing is not instinct. The German Hitler youth were not driven by any male instinct to dominate the world. Nor were they driven by any male instinct to think they were superior to other races. They were thought this by their adult instructors.

Throughout history boys have been thought they were superior to girls. Girls have been thought to be submissive to boys. Even in public education “a good wife knows her place.”

Even the well known notion that men think about sex more often than women is just a myth. Recent studies show that the genders are about equal in the time they spend on thinking about sex.

http://www.newsdesk.se/pressroom/lastminute/pressrelease/view/106451

There is one marked difference though: Single men think more often about sex than men in relationships. However, single women think less about sex compared to women in relationships.

While primordial indicts to some extent influence our behaviours, in an enlightened society (like most of those you find in the “western world”) these instincts play a very little role in forming our personalities compared to upbringing.


Quote
Originally posted by Tigeress
There have been women in history that ruled a country either by royal blood lines or popular election but it is the exception and not without male power majority in the background.


In Europe’s rather long and bloody history there have been numerous female leaders who were some of the bloodiest warmongers and butchers in history.

http://www.guide2womenleaders.com/womeninpower/European-Queens.htm

Most people don’t realise just how many women have ruled nations in known history (literally thousands), and how many female warrior leaders there have been. Most people don’t even know there are words like “Chiefess” or “Matriarch”.

Just because our Christianity dominated societies have suppressed women rights and roles for the last thousand years or so doesn’t mean it has always been so. Instead of burning your bras you should have burned your Bibles.


Quote
Originally posted by Tigeress
All of us women live on a thin edge between a civilized veneer and aggressive male instincts.

We are targets... always have been... always will be.

Even to the point of needing to close the blinds after dark to keep men from focusing on the house or me. I live very close with the threat of male instincts day and night... virtually all women do. I keep my doors locked, always and have a several weapons.
 

I respectfully suggest you move to a more civilised part of the world where you can walk down the street at night without fear of attack, and even sleep in an unlocked home without any weapons. It’s not your men that are wrong; it’s the society you live in. We all do what we are thought.


Quote
Originally posted by Tigeress
mmmm.... yes. I think it has to do with brain hemisphere switching for men.

Without the link between the left and right brain halves, men have to switch back and forth between the the two and some can do it quickly... pausing one task momentarily, doing the other momentarily, switching back and forth.

For us, it's streaming two or more threads simultaniously instead of switching focus back and forth between left and right sides. Bringing two or more tasks together as a larger task... hard to put into words.


There are differences between the male and female brain. The one you describe is the better connectivity between the brain-halves of the female brain. This allows for better understanding of the whole spectrum of sensory input: sight, hearing, touch etc. This better understanding is often referred to as the “female intuition”.

Another difference is that females are better at distinguishing colours and sounds, and reading emotions in others. Combined with the “female intuition” this makes women generally better at interior decorating, fashion and therapy/psychological counselling. While a female have little trouble picking out a voice/conversation in a room full of talking people, a male does. Also the fact that a man has problems understanding his wife over the noise of the vacuum-cleaner while she hears him perfectly has led to domestic conflicts too numerous to count. ;)

This is not a one-way street however … the man gets his benefits as well. Males are generally better at spatial awareness (position and motion in 3d space), logic and motor skills (as in doing stuff with your hands). This makes us superior map-readers, mathematicians, drivers, pilots, and anything that requires fast and accurate fingers.

A study and video-diary was done on a young British female who wanted a sex-change operation. She was given hormone treatments to basically change her into a male. During this procedure she was tested in her abilities to: accurately recognise feelings from facial expressions, do arithmetic, and perform motor skills. As her transformation took place she/he got progressively worse at reading emotions in others while improving her/his logic and motor skills. It was a fascinating series to watch, seeing a young voluptuous woman turn into a hairy broad-shouldered man with a deep voice.

Mind you, all these gender differences are minor; less than ten percentage points in most cases. The only real difference that has any real impact on our abilities to perform certain work is the male’s superior upper body strength which is generally considered to be twice that of the female. However, even this female weakness can be overcome through physical exercise and training. There is nothing a man can do that a woman can’t … and vice versa.

Offline Tigeress

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« Reply #86 on: October 21, 2007, 02:31:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
tigress...sooo... multitasking is the only thing that makes for a good fighter pilot?

You realize that women see differently than men too?  that while they have better color recognition.. they can't track fast moving objects as well.

I would think that is why they...despite you saying they are the best... never really finish in the top ranks.

multitasking is probly not as important as being able to see what is going on.

I don't know what you think is holding em back... Are men cheating in flight school?   Why wouldn't we want women flying to boost our dismal kill ratio?   Why wouldn't the enemy want em to slaughter our single minded clumsy male pilots?

lazs


Whatever Lazs... think whatever you want.

I see no point in a discussion with you, dear.

TIGERESS
« Last Edit: October 21, 2007, 03:01:50 PM by Tigeress »

Offline Viking

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« Reply #87 on: October 21, 2007, 02:39:24 PM »
To underscore my last point I'd like to introduce to you Mrs. Sue Mansour, a Nova Scotia wife, mother and worker. However unlike many other women she is stronger than most men:





While I don't find her particularly attractive physically, she is living proof that with some effort the weaker female physique is not an obstacle that cannot be overcome.

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #88 on: October 21, 2007, 02:47:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
To underscore my last point I'd like to introduce to you Mrs. Sue Mansour, a Nova Scotia wife, mother and worker. However unlike many other women she is stronger than most men:





While I don't find her particularly attractive physically, she is living proof that with some effort the weaker female physique is not an obstacle that cannot be overcome.


I must take exception with your assertion that she is stronger than most men. Strength is more than body fat composition. Size and skeletal structure are factors in strength. You won't see the world's strongest power lifters that cut.
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Offline AKIron

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« Reply #89 on: October 21, 2007, 02:55:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tigeress
Whatever Lazs... think whatever you want.

I see no point in a discussion with to you, dear.

TIGERESS


The honeymoon is over.  ;)
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.