What's Your Single Issue Voting Flash Point?

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Shamus
Of course it can Drediock, it was before roe v wade.

It came very close to becoming illegal again in the prior congress, and you know damn well the current supreme court would love to debate a new abortion law.

shamus

then why didnt it?

Its not going anywhere

Even if it had been. it would only be turned around again once the left seized power again.

Too many people want the choice even if they have no intention on using it.

My mother for example, while now too old to bear children has always said she herself would probably never have had one. But. she wants that choice for herself.

I agree with that and I know a great many other people do as well.

And that is why its not going away.

10 years from now people will still behavbing the same arguement and abortion will still be there.

[lazs2]

hmm... halo and dmf... how much of the baby has to be out of the mothers vagina before it is a human with rights?  

illegal immigration is a large issue but if we stopped leaving saucers of milk out we would have a lot less cats in the yard.    Cut the benifiets for not only illegals but for everyone.   Cut taxes and services and shrink government and you will get rid of the crazy old lady in the neigborhood that leaves out the saucers of milk.

lazs

[bsdaddict]

Originally posted by Halo
Thanks, bsdaddict, interesting and concise read.  States' rights is a fascinating issue itself.  Ideally that could allow for regional preferences and unique needs.  

But some issues seem to transcend states' rights.  Some issues are too important to allow variations from the national norm.  Examples are national defense, international trade, and racial equality.  Surely abortion, gun control, and capital punishment also qualify as national issues requiring adherence in all 50 states.  

Article 1, Section 8 of the constitution enumerates the Powers of Congress. (the lawmakers)  National Defense and international trade are specifically mentioned.  Racial equality is covered by "All men are created equal..." and the equal protection clause of the 14th.  The 2nd ammendment restricts the fedgov from infringing on our right to keep and bear arms, the due process clause of the 14th prevents the states from doing so.  IMHO, abortion and capital punishment aren't specifically covered enough to warrant being federal issues, therefor according to the 10th they're states issues.

Opponents of federal legislation frequently try to weaken it by contending that for one reason or another, usually their preference for more states' rights, there is no federal issue and hence no requirement for federal participation.  Trying to undermine the existing authority is an ancient debate technique.

not sure what you're getting at.  If the Constitution does not specifically grant the fedgov a certain power, then that power is reserved for the states and/or the people.  What part of that is "trying to undermine the existing authority"?  It's the fedgov that's undermining the Constitutional Authority, not the other way around.

[Halo]

(quote)   hmm... halo and dmf... how much of the baby has to be out of the mothers vagina before it is a human with rights?  (unquote)


(my quote)  The laws place all sorts of conditions on abortions. Many of them are term limits. Who could stand to see a woman give birth and then kill the baby?  Who could stand to see anyone kill anything that looks a lot like a baby, e.g., fetuses more than three months or so. (my unquote)


This gets into one of the central facets of abortion:  rights of an unborn child.  Some think the unborn have rights from the instant of conception.  Some think the unborn rights begin only after they are born.  Some think the rights begin somewhere in between.  

Like many people, I don't know.  But I think the most reasonable compromise is somewhere along the lines of existing abortion legislation that allows abortions early in pregnancy but not late unless there are extreme circumstances jeopardizing the life of the mother.

I'm no expert on abortion, but I believe that's at least a close approximation of the rules.  If I had a family member or friend involved, I'd doublecheck everything.

Did that dodge the central question?  Didn't mean to.  I think the rights of the pregnant female take precedence throughout, and I think the rights of a child begin at birth when it begins to function on its own outside of the mother.  

I have no idea whether that is the best judgement, but it's the best opinion I can reach based on what I understand and believe.  I try to remain open to new information and reasoning, but that's where I am and have been on this issue for quite awhile.

[Charon]

Illegal Immigration, the 2nd and the 4th, campaign finance reform...

Kind of excludes about all of the candidates if taken as a package. Both parties like illegal immigration, the Dems hate the 2nd and the Repubs hate the 4th and politicians hate campaign finance reform.

Charon

[Yeager]

LMAO you can laugh too.
Still wont change a thing
====

[lazs2]

halo..  I am no expert on abortion either but I am hearing people say that a human does not exist till it is crawling around outside the womb...

Also... I am not placing much importance on abortion as an issue one way or the other... I am not the one saying how frigging important it is on how I vote.

I told you that I was content to murder all the children you guys say we should but that we should at least face up to what we are doing and why...  We are doing it because we are hedonistic sluts who think that us being inconvienenced is the most important thing... more than a potential life.

Now.. all this would make more sense if it were some unavoidable trajedy and without abortion mothers would be forced to raise these children but...

That is not the case.. they can use birth control... if that doesn't work or.. they are just to lazy and horny...  well.. they can simply leave the child at the hospital...  give it away... heck... they could even sell it.   If they have no attachment to it by the time it is born then there really is no big deal a few minutes later.

You seem to be saying tho that you are against killing ones that you have to see or that look too much like everyone else.   I have no problem with killing anyone if they deserve it..

We just have to decide at what point these things are able to grow up to be humans or not without these loving caring moms of theirs and..  if inconvienece is a good enough reason to execute them.

lazs

[Halo]

Back to the main issue: Does anyone other than the pregnant female have the right to tell her she must under all circumstances allow her fetus to be born?  

I think it is the prospective mother's right to decide, not any male's, and not any government's.  But as the current legal status provides, I also think that if she decides to abort, she should have access to competent medical assistance by those who share her philsophy (not forcing any who are against abortion to be involved in providing abortion).  

Without repeating previous discussion on this, yes, abortion is killing a life.  I still wouldn't call it murder under previous distinctions between those definitions.

[Holden McGroin]

If they are darker than a brown paper bag then that's a deal breaker.  Or is it lighter than a brown paper bag? I can never keep that straight.

Straight... maybe it's whether they want to have sex with a brown paper bag.

[lasersailor184]

Back to the main issue: Does anyone other than the pregnant female have the right to tell her she must under all circumstances allow her fetus to be born?

What about the baby's right?

I believe in personal choice and personal freedom more then anyone else here.  But you can't tell me that anyone has a right to end another person's life intentionally.

[Halo]

Some believe rights begin at conception; some believe rights begin at birth.  Some believe rights begin somewhere in between.

Obviously no unaniminity anywhere along the spectrum.

That's why abortion is a single-issue flash point for some people.

For all readers of this thread: as is apparent from many posters, while some have a single-issue flash point, others have several flash points.  

So are there any other flash points beyond those previously mentioned that are make or break for your decision whether or not to support a particular candidate?

[kamilyun]

I think abortion is "okay" up until the gestational age at which the fetus/baby would survive if delivered prematurely.

Babies can survive after 24-25 weeks of gestation.  Normal gestation is 38-42 weeks.  By the best numbers I can find in short time I'm going to put into this, only 1.4% of all abortions in the US occur after 21 weeks.

Late term (post 21 weeks) abortions should be illegal, IMHO, except in cases where the fetus/baby would not survive (severe illness) or it's delivery would endanger the life of the mother.  Why?  If the only difference between fetus and baby is a centimeter of the mother's tissue, then I'd have to call that a viable human life.  But whatever, it's just my opinion and in reality, this category only comprises a small percentage of abortions...

BTW, most of this comes from Wikipedia, so feel free to double check or provide better data...

Description of mid and late-term abortion procedure:

The procedure consists of pulling the fetus out of the womb with forceps, delivering the fetus entirely except for the head. Scissors are used to open the skull, and the brain is suctioned out to ensure death. The fetus is then removed.

----

Why do you need to "ensure death" for something that was not alive?

[Sandman]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
On Abortion.

Its a womans issue and men should stay the hell out of it.

Damn straight. I'm pro-choice for men too. Men should be able to opt out on providing for a child they do not want. If a woman chooses to have a child and the man doesn't agree, it's on her.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by kamilyun

Late term (post 21 weeks) abortions should be illegal, IMHO, except in cases where the fetus/baby would not survive (severe illness) or it's delivery would endanger the life of the mother.   [/B]

You've been played by the politicians and the special interest groups. This is already the case without the law getting involved.

[Toad]

^

Somehow, I don't think this position on men's choice is going to endear you to the pro-choice crowd.

But...that's just a guess.

Funny though.