Simulated Aerial Combat Roundtable

[Animl-AW]

To me AH is like this gem.
Bought it in 96 with 60k miles (during my AW days), E12 engine drove it regularly, between Chicago and WA state a few times, until 2012 with 240k miles on it. Sold it, to a French foreign auto mechanic for decoration in front of his shop....engine still running top notch, it's probably still running. Kinda like AH.

Had it painted with aircraft epoxy paint, buffed like a mirror quality. The sun glare on it was blinding.

This is German made, you can tell by the dome looking turn signals. In Germany they didn't have to be seen from the side, so US imports had to be fitted with the side dome fixture. The 79 528i is what BMW used to break into the American market. This car was made the first 6 mos of production with a 7 digit VIN number, shipped from Germany.

[CptTrips]

Always wanted a bug.

Even if they were the Model-T of the Third Reich. 

[TryHard]

Minecraft is intentionally bad.
It's part of it's aesthetic. 
Like Tiny Wings.

It's different when you are trying your best and and just not measuring up.

Have you tried to interest a friend in AH?  What was the reactions you got?

I invariably got two back to back reactions:

"Hmmm those graphics look kinda dated."
and
"Oh wait.  Subscription?  You have to pay subscription to play?" <stink face>

Less effect on existing players leaving.  But eventually it's just one more factor making competition look attractive.

The reviews on the Steam page pretty much echo that as a common reaction by those downloading the trial there too.



What's your theory?

I've actually introduced a few friends to aces high and all of them enjoyed it and I will say not one mentioned anything about the graphics. The game actually looks pretty decent on newer maps with all the graphics options turned up. But alas none would stick around to pay the subscription of 15$ a month but once in a while we mess around in H2H arenas.

The subscription model and the current main arena player base (Pickers and Runners) is what is killing this game IMO.
The flight model and large MMO aspects along with excellent VR support is the only thing keeping her afloat

I think (a dangerous word I know) if online play was "free" or at least close to free maybe 5$ a month and if you wanted better aircraft you could "rent" them, but no mater what some people are just turned off having to constantly pay for a game.

Now I shall wait for the retired boomers who bought a house for 50 grand back in 1970 tell me how 15$ a month isn't a lot of money because they were just much smarter when they were younger and saved their money 

[Oldman731]

I think (a dangerous word I know) if online play was "free" or at least close to free maybe 5$ a month and if you wanted better aircraft you could "rent" them, but no mater what some people are just turned off having to constantly pay for a game.

Now I shall wait for the retired boomers who bought a house for 50 grand back in 1970 tell me how 15$ a month isn't a lot of money because they were just much smarter when they were younger and saved their money 

As one of the geezers...I think you're probably right.  We mature folks were captivated back when this was essentially the only game like it in the world (except for the men in tights frolics).  In other contexts, though, I don't sign up for "free for the first six months" subscriptions, simply because I forget to cancel when the six months are up, and I'm not sure I'm that interested.

Having watched these boards for awhile, I think there's another factor at work.  The lure of playing against real people, I suspect, is not as strong as it once was.  Watching the IL2 and DCS discussions, I think much of the world is back to Battlehawks 1942 and SWOTL.

That's just my take.  I have no solution, short of Vulcan mind meld on a massive basis.

- oldman

[Animl-AW]

Having watched these boards for awhile, I think there's another factor at work.  The lure of playing against real people, I suspect, is not as strong as it once was.  Watching the IL2 and DCS discussions, I think much of the world is back to Battlehawks 1942 and SWOTL.

That's just my take.  I have no solution, short of Vulcan mind meld on a massive basis.

- oldman

I don't think it's as much preference, I think if you want modern graphics you're going to have to settle for AI. That much data can't support a lot of human AC in their current arenas so they fill the void with AI, which I assume is lower data. That and, seriously, not as many are flying and fighting. Most seems to be solo pilots learning their new AC they just bought.   Not fight ready. And some like AI just so they have something to program. Quite a few who play dcs and some that play IL-2 comes here for their MA fix. SO I'm not sure it's as much a preferences as you're just stuck with AI with modern graphic games. They don't even offer an arena like AH MA. I think they just got sucked into great modern graphics and justify it.

[CptTrips]

As one of the geezers...I think you're probably right.  We mature folks were captivated back when this was essentially the only game like it in the world (except for the men in tights frolics).  In other contexts, though, I don't sign up for "free for the first six months" subscriptions, simply because I forget to cancel when the six months are up, and I'm not sure I'm that interested.

Having watched these boards for awhile, I think there's another factor at work.  The lure of playing against real people, I suspect, is not as strong as it once was.  Watching the IL2 and DCS discussions, I think much of the world is back to Battlehawks 1942 and SWOTL.

That's just my take.  I have no solution, short of Vulcan mind meld on a massive basis.

- oldman

I somewhat agree.

I'm not sure how much it has really changed over the years.

Sources (different and separate) from both DCS and IL2 have confirmed from their internal data, that the vast majority of their customers are SP (Single Player) only.  Out of that, a tiny fraction venture into MP.  That's why putting resources into MP has been lower priority.

But the SP provide a solid, dependable revenue stream that is several times larger than the MP only crowd can fund.

WT gets away with MP only, but they are at the end of the Sim spectrum that has the largest number of potential players (approachable) and is smart with they monetization strategies (maintain contact with prospects with F2P until they are converted).  So they are able to overcome the disadvantage of having no SP by shear tyranny of large numbers.

In a way, MP only, is a hack.  It avoids the whole AI SP mission\campaign tech problem, which isn't easy.  Believable AI is very hard.  You avoid the whole problem by just making it MP and letting others provide the targets.  Cheaper\easier than developing good AI.

People are just busy with their lives and kids.  They can't play enough hours a week to stay competitive.  And it sucks to just spend the one hour a night you have to play merely being target practice for guys who spend all day, every day living on the servers.  SP at least allows them to fly around and blow some stuff up before the wife says you need to take out the trash and get to bed for work the next day.  SP is always there ready to go when I am.  I can pause whenever, no problem.  I can adjust difficulty to what suits me.

DCS' PvE servers are intriguing.  and honestly, they are often the most populated.  A lot of players find that fun.  That's interesting.  They want MP, they just want it cooperative, not adversarial.  They want to work with others to achieve a goal.  I guess the difference is like playing Quake deathmatch, vs working with some buds cooperatively to finish a Half-life campaign.

Also a lot of MP activity in DCS is stealth, because it is squads and other communities playing on closed, private servers playing through some event scenario against the AI.  Working together.  That can be kinda fun.  More than half the threats are SAMs and ground units and AAA, so those are going to be AI anyway.

Though, given WT success, I don't think you can completely blame MP only for AH's problems. Not solely anyway.

Now that Lusche corrected me, it's worth point out that out of the main online air combat competitors (WT, AH, IL2, DSC) only AH attempts a subscription model.
I also suspect it is the least financially successful.  Coincidence?  It also probably has the most dated graphics.

[Tumor]

I don't think it's as much preference, I think if you want modern graphics you're going to have to settle for AI. That much data can't support a lot of human AC in their current arenas so they fill the void with AI, which I assume is lower data. That and, seriously, not as many are flying and fighting. Most seems to be solo pilots learning their new AC they just bought.   Not fight ready. And some like AI just so they have something to program. Quite a few who play dcs and some that play IL-2 comes here for their MA fix. SO I'm not sure it's as much a preferences as you're just stuck with AI with modern graphic games. They don't even offer an arena like AH MA. I think they just got sucked into great modern graphics and justify it.

Just my 2cents here.  After a couple of decades of near MP only "Combat" Flight sims, I found I'd had my fill of "human" competition.  AI can be less than realistic, I'll give you that.  However, what AI doesn't do is show up to a "simulated theater of war" and act like a Turd.  It's a thing, a real thing, and I've had a deep rooted hatred for that sort of thing for a very long time.  Around 2015, I'd had my fill of it.  This is in no way even remotely limited to AH and is present everywhere I've ever bothered to log on and confirm.  I'm talking about that turd who gets mad, throws caution to the wind and chases you deep into enemy (your) territory and gets a kill-shot off just before a SAM takes him out, that he knew would take him out... while you're landing (Enigma's, I think.  Couldn't have been IL-2).  Is Enigma (or whoever) gonna make that stupidly thought out loss of an airframe costly to ~anyone~?  Of course not.  Don't think so?  Don't fool yourself.  Aircraft pulling maneuvers that are physically impossible, or would likely kill the pilot if it could happen. How about that guy who's best ACM is derived from lag? You'll hear them chant about their great ACM skill till they're blue in the face... but you never hear about that other part.  Then there's the game-the-gamer.  There isn't enough room on the entire board to cover all THOSE details, but ya, that too!  Shades & multiple accounts and other significant dimwittery... and finally, the cheater/hacker.  The things I'd like to do to THOSE people can't be stated here.  Regardless, it all adds up to a guy looking for something that's ~not~ filled with all the rotten crap that inevitably comes with crowds of human beings numbering higher than 3 (I'm guessing).  AI at a minimum, typically does what it's supposed to do, and acts SOMEWHAT like what it should.  Not once in any game, anywhere, ever, have I seen an AI opponent launch itself into that clever old floppy-fish routine at 200ft alt, let alone recover after doing it.  Never.  AI at least acts like it want's to live on to fight another day.  If you could get even 1 in 10 "gamers" to think that way, MP would tolerable.  As it stands, I'd rather go bowling.

Having advanced AI is a blessing.  Highly capable Mission Editors is an even greater blessing.  Not having to put up with Capt Turd rushing in with his balls on fire looking to cartoon-pew-pew anything that moves, or the silly twit off performing his/her version of griefing, or the outright cheater, etc etc etc?  That's heaven.  (that and watching the Tribunal channel on Hoggit's Discord, where Capt Turd gets dealt with regularly... hilarious stuff)   

[Eagler]

I've actually introduced a few friends to aces ....

Now I shall wait for the retired boomers who bought a house for 50 grand back in 1970 tell me how 15$ a month isn't a lot of money because they were just much smarter when they were younger and saved their money 

It was $80k in 1989 at 12% interest...and now they are selling for over $400,000

Married at 19 /child inbound and were able to retire at 64 last year..so not sure if we were that much smarter when we were younger lol

If a monthly $15 subscription is a monetary issue, you have much larger issues in your budget

As I play an hour nightly,  the 50 cents a day/hour it averages me is well worth it for my entertainment

Eagler

[AKIron]

Hope you all can keep it going for years to come. Come the inevitable know the genre isn't dead. It's come a long way.

[CptTrips]

Hope you all can keep it going for years to come. Come the inevitable know the genre isn't dead. It's come a long way.

Man I used to love that one and the x-wing fighter one.

[Spikes]

Just my 2cents here.  After a couple of decades of near MP only "Combat" Flight sims, I found I'd had my fill of "human" competition.  AI can be less than realistic, I'll give you that.  However, what AI doesn't do is show up to a "simulated theater of war" and act like a Turd.  It's a thing, a real thing, and I've had a deep rooted hatred for that sort of thing for a very long time.  Around 2015, I'd had my fill of it.  This is in no way even remotely limited to AH and is present everywhere I've ever bothered to log on and confirm.  I'm talking about that turd who gets mad, throws caution to the wind and chases you deep into enemy (your) territory and gets a kill-shot off just before a SAM takes him out, that he knew would take him out... while you're landing (Enigma's, I think.  Couldn't have been IL-2).  Is Enigma (or whoever) gonna make that stupidly thought out loss of an airframe costly to ~anyone~?  Of course not.  Don't think so?  Don't fool yourself.  Aircraft pulling maneuvers that are physically impossible, or would likely kill the pilot if it could happen. How about that guy who's best ACM is derived from lag? You'll hear them chant about their great ACM skill till they're blue in the face... but you never hear about that other part.  Then there's the game-the-gamer.  There isn't enough room on the entire board to cover all THOSE details, but ya, that too!  Shades & multiple accounts and other significant dimwittery... and finally, the cheater/hacker.  The things I'd like to do to THOSE people can't be stated here.  Regardless, it all adds up to a guy looking for something that's ~not~ filled with all the rotten crap that inevitably comes with crowds of human beings numbering higher than 3 (I'm guessing).  AI at a minimum, typically does what it's supposed to do, and acts SOMEWHAT like what it should.  Not once in any game, anywhere, ever, have I seen an AI opponent launch itself into that clever old floppy-fish routine at 200ft alt, let alone recover after doing it.  Never.  AI at least acts like it want's to live on to fight another day.  If you could get even 1 in 10 "gamers" to think that way, MP would tolerable.  As it stands, I'd rather go bowling.

Having advanced AI is a blessing.  Highly capable Mission Editors is an even greater blessing.  Not having to put up with Capt Turd rushing in with his balls on fire looking to cartoon-pew-pew anything that moves, or the silly twit off performing his/her version of griefing, or the outright cheater, etc etc etc?  That's heaven.  (that and watching the Tribunal channel on Hoggit's Discord, where Capt Turd gets dealt with regularly... hilarious stuff)   

To me, there is no satisfaction in killing AI. I'm not saying it's not hard to do, I'm sure it can be. I'm sure you can jack up the difficulty and you're out there fighting Maverick and Iceman, but my main draw to playing these games it the PvP aspect. It's fun to make someone mad or ruin someone's night by shooting them down. It's not fun to be shot down by another player knowing they're gleeful and you're pissed you messed up the maneuver or missed the shot. I like flying FSO knowing that P-51 I just toasted gets to sit in the tower and sulk. And likewise, I do the same when I get zapped by an enemy. There's just something about that.

Hope you all can keep it going for years to come. Come the inevitable know the genre isn't dead. It's come a long way.

I don't think the genre in and of itself is dead, but I don't think the mindset is the same as it was 20+ years ago when AH, AW, FA, WB were first around. Of course there is the small subset of people who enjoy AH, IL2, the WW2 part of DCS. Then you have the larger base of people who play WoWS, WoT, War Thunder. I would venture to say the majority of people who play these aren't really interested in the actual historical aspect of WWII. They are fun, mindless games with quick action. Of course, there are plenty of people who play them who are history buffs/history gamers and enjoy them.

As we get further and further from WWII, I think genuine interest in WWII diminishes with each generation (which I would expect it to).

[AKIron]

I've said the same about interest in WWII diminishing with time. Of course there will long be some interest but how many first person shooters have you seen based on the American Revolution or the more recent US Civil War?

[CptTrips]

If a monthly $15 subscription is a monetary issue, you have much larger issues in your budget

This trope keeps getting trotted out.

It's not always just the absolute dollar amount.  It's the principle of value.  They are not seeing the value.  And a lot of people just hate the idea of one more subscription sucking on them like a leach.  So there is also a principle aversion.

If I offer to sell you a meal-delivery-plan where I delivery fresh crap-sandwiches to you on a weekly basis like Butcher Box. Only $30/mo.

Don't want that?  What if I reduced it to $14.95/mo?  OK, $5.00/mo.  That is ONLY $0.06/day for fresh hot crap-sandwiches!!!!!!!!! If a monthly $5 subscription is a monetary issue, you have much larger issues in your budget!

I'm not saying AH is crap.  I'm suggesting if the market finds your product unappealing, merely lowering the price doesn't always make any difference. 

And people have developed an allergy to subscriptions.  Every time they turn around, some rent-seeker is trying to get their claws into them for a subscription.  It's gotten worse over the years and people have started viscerally hating the idea. 

I've used Adobe Photoshop for decades.  Loved it.  They tried to change to subscription on me and I dumped them them without a second thought and pickup up an app that wasn't quite as good but was buy-to-own.  Adobe has great value, but I hate subscriptions.

I'll tolerate subscriptions in certain circumstances.  If I was into some D&D game where they had to script and create new quests for me every week.  Develop story lines, add new characters and artwork each week, they are providing me a river of new content.  That would justify a subscription.  There is a stream constantly developed new content  being delivered to me.

[Eagler]

I liked it when it was $29.95 a month as it took out the children...

It's not a numbers game for me , usually around 100 when I am on..but an issue with the map size diluting the possible action with the reduced numbers..

Eagler

[The Fugitive]

I've actually introduced a few friends to aces high and all of them enjoyed it and I will say not one mentioned anything about the graphics. The game actually looks pretty decent on newer maps with all the graphics options turned up. But alas none would stick around to pay the subscription of 15$ a month but once in a while we mess around in H2H arenas.

The subscription model and the current main arena player base (Pickers and Runners) is what is killing this game IMO.
The flight model and large MMO aspects along with excellent VR support is the only thing keeping her afloat

I think (a dangerous word I know) if online play was "free" or at least close to free maybe 5$ a month and if you wanted better aircraft you could "rent" them, but no mater what some people are just turned off having to constantly pay for a game.

Now I shall wait for the retired boomers who bought a house for 50 grand back in 1970 tell me how 15$ a month isn't a lot of money because they were just much smarter when they were younger and saved their money 

I agree that AH isnt "that bad". The graphics are ok especially considering the world the game generates, thats a lot of data. The price isnt what todays gamers are use to so ya, its a big turn off for them. Us boomers find that $00.50 a day is a great investment in entertainment, but thats how we were brought up. Todays gamer has  a different mindset when it comes to that. Gaming isnt so much "entertainment" as it is just games, so many of which are free as long as you dont mind adds or grinds. Its not that us boomers were "so much better with our money", we had the same situations people have today. Sure we could buy a house for 50k, but we were only making 10-12k a year. So for todays gamer its more perception and propaganda then real money issues.

I find fighting against a real player far more fun and in most cases more challenging, even WITH the turds. AI is just not up to what some of these guys are willing to try. Im sure if you study them long enough they will become very predictable, and so boring.

I think if Hitech jumped back in and sharpened up the cockpits (after all what other "art" do you see when your flying?) and dropped the subscription to $5, or made a tiered subscription rate, or just went full out "buy as you go" for each plane like DCS he could get the numbers back up again. Everything has to change with the times.