Author Topic: school vouchers  (Read 4163 times)

Offline DmdMac

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school vouchers
« Reply #60 on: September 07, 2003, 02:38:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by banana
Test all the teachers. Test them long and hard. Throw out the minority who fail the tests. The remaining professionals who have proven their abilities should be paid, and paid handsomely.

Those of you who have never taught in the public schools have no idea what teachers go up against on a daily basis.

I do. If you ask nice and offer to buy me a beer, I'd be glad to educate you.....that is, if you're willing to learn. :)



Teaching has long been regarded a noble profession and that is perhaps the result of level of dedication and desire to see the young become prominent citizens.  I do not wish to teach, though I do like to help, but I may likely go in the direction for a time. The biggest fear is the stories I hear of disruptive and violent students and the parents that defend them vehemently.

Mac out

BTW, I love your avatar. What is his name again?

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #61 on: September 07, 2003, 03:25:33 PM »
Kieran how is IEP for a small number of disbled kids ruining scholling fore everyone else?

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #62 on: September 07, 2003, 04:43:37 PM »
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
pointing out one of the reasons why public schools are FUBAR doesn't really change anything.  we all know that they are and there are many reaons why.

if you fund the private schools through vouchers controled by the parent, instead of direct gov't funding there is no reason why they would be this screwed.

if nothing else we would have a clean start at a new set-up.  maybe we could get 100 years out of that before the gov't finds a way to ruin it.


I submit you don't really understand at all, at least not to the degree you think you do.

Vouchers are federal or state moneys. He that has the purse strings has the power. Sure, the parent can decide where to spend their voucher; the state can mandate to any institution which receives their moneys (however it gets there) how things can/cannot be run. Simple as that.

I.E.P.'s are only one example, and not intended to be the sole reason for public school woes. I would hope it would be evident enough the force behind I.E.P.'s will be the force moving to private schools. Don't doubt for a second they will continue to flex their collective muscle. You may not be aware, but equal education is required by the 14th amendment for any school receiving federal or state money. These schools will no longer be able to just kick out problem students for fear of being sued and having moneys withheld.

FWIW, any person that includes in their description of schools comments like "seems like all teachers want to do is..." or "teachers should just..." have absolutely no idea what the job is about. None. Zero. We work for YOU, all of YOU, and if you collectively could agree on what you want, you could get it (probably). You can't/won't, therefore it won't matter one bit where you go to school. You'll be talking the same crap about private schools in 10 years time.

Heck, if you'd just read the myriad comments in this thread alone you can see this small group can't decide anything definitive about anything, particularly what kids should be learning. Yet... you're telling us how it should be done. No, wait, you're telling us we should do the right thing. No, wait, you're saying we should kick kids out who cause trouble. No, wait, you're saying it is OUR job to make kids interested in staying in school. Ad infinitum.

Offline eskimo2

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« Reply #63 on: September 07, 2003, 05:14:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Kieran how is IEP for a small number of disbled kids ruining scholling fore everyone else?


Every kid with an IEP requires a big chunk of your class time.  Teachers are legally bound to spend a great deal of their student contact time with these kids.  A lot of their planning time can be eaten up with paper work and meetings for these students.  Get a few IEP students in your class and the rest of your students can be legally screwed out of having a reasonable amount of your time for them to be taught properly.  

IEPs are just one example of how public schools have been handed a no win situation.  
The problem with the public school system is that all of the well-meaning laws and mandates that have been forced upon them are all based of theories and without considering how practical they may be.  


There’s a problem with public schools, we had better tell them how to do things…
Hmm, it’s getting worse.  Looks like we had better force them to do things how we see fit again.  
Gee, it’s getting worse…
Wonder why?  

Let’s just hand the reigns over to private schools, they do a good job.
Of course they’ll have to take the special-ed kids, and we certainly can’t let them expel kids for any reason, better not let them hold kids back either, and documentation, we’ll make sure they document everything, just like we made the public schools document everything.

(next year)

WTF went wrong with private schools?  Looks like we had better force them to do things how we see fit again.  


eskimo

Offline wrag

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« Reply #64 on: September 07, 2003, 05:18:43 PM »
I agree with Gadfly and Capt. Apathy RE learning.

I was once selected to teach a course and found I had NO desire whatsoever to try to teach anyone that didn't want to learn!  

I quit within 1 day.

I.E.P. , to me anyway, is only a symptom of what is going wrong or has gone wrong in our public school system.

N.E.A. from my view point is a big problem!  Possibly the REAL problem with our education system.  The focus on WHAT is being taught, HOW it will be taught, etc. is a very big part of the problem!

Instead of focusing on the basic 3 R's the focus seems to be on being nice to everyone and major rewrites of history and the meanings behind the constitution.

Some protested making our schools centrally controlled for exactly those reasons.  

Our children appear to be getting 1984 'd
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #65 on: September 07, 2003, 06:50:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
and if you collectively could agree on what you want, you could get it (probably).  


And therein lies the problem. No way in hell everyone is ever going to agree as to what they want for their kids. That is one of the many reasons private schools exist. Time to make them more available to those with lower incomes.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline capt. apathy

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« Reply #66 on: September 07, 2003, 07:29:47 PM »
Quote
Every kid with an IEP requires a big chunk of your class time. Teachers are legally bound to spend a great deal of their student contact time with these kids. A lot of their planning time can be eaten up with paper work and meetings for these students. Get a few IEP students in your class and the rest of your students can be legally screwed out of having a reasonable amount of your time for them to be taught properly.


kinda proves the point doesn't it?  maybe the kids requiring iep's should be in a different class.  the teachers that teach these classes should then have either a smaller class size, more free periods to keep up with the crap, or some combination of both.

but vouchers allow the parents to opt out of the system that groups all the kids together it makes a point.  and it talks in a language that administration understands, it talks in $$$.

the fact is that for the most part schools don't listen (some teachers do, some principles do,  but as a whole they don't).  parents are treated as the ignorant masses, who really need the guidence of college educated childless people to tell them how to raise there kids.

schools are taking too much time on things that have nothing to do with educating, and more to do with raising the kids (and frankly every person I ever met that had the gov't oversee their childhood was a fluff'n mess).  

parents have been saying this for years and nobody hears, they can't hear us over the special interest groups, the racial groups, the pro-abortion groups, the anti-gun groups, gay rights groups, and on and on and on.  most of the leaders of these groups that get the schools ear don't even have kids,  they're mostly just board college kids or professional activists.

and the anti-voucher group wants all kids in the same system.  how stupid is that?  with vouchers we can have several types of schools and you could send your kid to whichever one either run the way you think it should be or teaches in a way that your child can learn.  I think, if your honest, all of you who have ever done any teaching would admit that different personality types learn best under completely different environments.

but putting everyone in one system is a recipe for disaster.  it guarentees mediocrity at best.  since this bbs is based on a military sim, I'll put it in a way we can all understand.  "your convoy can only move at the speed of the slowest ship".  

if we put all kids in the same system and focus extra atention on the kids who won't(can't) learn, then the best and brightest the hope for our future, (or even just the average)  can only be ignored.  it won't work any other way.  when you have limited resources and focus extra atention on problem, slow, or the kids who don't speak the language, these resources must come from somewhere and they come from the other kids.

but with vouchers it's completely fair.  all kids will recieve an equal and fair share of resources.  if you can't trust your local school to teach your kid, find someone else, and his share of the resources should go with.  as it is you are almost rewarding them for failing.  now if your kid is getting screwed and you take him to private school you pay double (taxes, plus tuition) and the local schools get to keep resources for a child they don't have to teach.

how is that fair?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2003, 07:31:48 PM by capt. apathy »

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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« Reply #67 on: September 07, 2003, 07:35:24 PM »
I went to both private and public schools - aside from the religious brain washing and uniforms - I saw no difference in the education standards.

In the private (religious) schools - there were great, good and horrible teachers. In public schools - there were great, good and horrible teachers.

I did have more fun with non-anal people, however, in the public school.

Just throwing this out there for anyone who wants the point of view from someone who had a good bit of both sides.
-SW

Offline MrCoffee

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« Reply #68 on: September 07, 2003, 07:57:35 PM »
I went to a ghetto of a school. I turned out ok.

:rolleyes:  :D

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #69 on: September 07, 2003, 08:07:41 PM »
Holy Crap, what does it take to make you guys understand? (Apathy and Iron)

The schools don't make the decisions- your state and federal government does.

Laws are influenced by the NEA, yes, but mostly by advocacy groups, mostly parents.

As long as there are parents, there will be conflict in schools.

Vouchers will not remove litigious parents, or parent advocates.

Vouchers will not remove federal and state mandates- in fact they will increase in "private" schools.

You'll be right back to square one before you know it.

I know you guys are convinced schools don't care, teachers don't care, and vouchers are the panacea, but you are dead wrong. What's more, I can think of little more dispiriting than to have to listen to people tell me how our school doesn't care, or how our teachers don't care, blah, blah, blah...

"The beatings will continue until morale improves!"

Offline capt. apathy

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« Reply #70 on: September 07, 2003, 08:51:55 PM »
why not try it and see?  why doesn't the public education industry want us to play it out?

the only harm I could see is for the curent screwed up system would lose control of some of the money.  but then that doesn't real seem like 'harm' to me anyway.

even if you where right, and the private schools would eventually have the same problem anyway, we'd have a few years to crank out some kids with a decent shot at an education.

if the problem really did spred to the private schools (through contaminated money?).  then it could only lead to a faster, better solution to the over-all problem. as most of the people who are in power send their kids to private schools, they would soon have as much an incentive to solve the education problems as the rest of us.

so far in public education the problem seems to be too much bureaucracy, and when a solution is demanded the answer is allways more bureaucracy.

forgive us from doubting that a solution is even possable with our sytem set-up the way it is.

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #71 on: September 07, 2003, 08:57:18 PM »
vouchers would mean smaller class sizes in the existing public schools and in the new "voucher" schools created to absorb this "new" money

30 to 50 kids in a class, 6 to 8 classes day - what kind of teacher will handle that load for < $30k a year?

the kind we have today in the public school system...
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Offline Kieran

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« Reply #72 on: September 07, 2003, 09:02:13 PM »
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Originally posted by Eagler
vouchers would mean smaller class sizes in the existing public schools and in the new "voucher" schools created to absorb this "new" money

30 to 50 kids in a class, 6 to 8 classes day - what kind of teacher will handle that load for < $30k a year?

the kind we have today in the public school system...


Where do you think "those kinds of kids" come from?

Private schools won't solve that problem...

By the way, I'll just assume this wasn't another slam on teachers...
« Last Edit: September 07, 2003, 09:06:45 PM by Kieran »

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #73 on: September 07, 2003, 09:05:46 PM »
Apathy, I've told you why I don't believe it will work, over and over. I know it's easier to ignore than face, so be it, I give.

Of course you are absolutely right, vouchers are sure the way to go. It will solve everything. No problems at all once they are in, you betcha. Parents will cooperate, children will want to learn, and the material will suddenly be interesting and totally absorbing. Yup, it seems so easy, I don't know why we haven't done it before.

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #74 on: September 07, 2003, 09:54:32 PM »
no slam at all Kieran

hard enough to educate 30/40 "angels" in a typical class let alone 30/40 "average" students per class in today's public school system..
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