Gay Parenting

[Kieran]

No Tarmac, it doesn't.

And yes SW, there are plenty of hetero families that turn out crappy kids. But statistics do speak of which group is more likely to produce "normal" kids. That's what I'm saying.

Let's try to pull this back on track a little, because quite honestly my religious objection won't change.

Secular society is based on democratic vote- at least, I thought it was. This issue will not come to vote. I am also not happy about the courts being able to legislate as they are.

[Tarmac]

Originally posted by Kieran
Secular society is based on democratic vote- at least, I thought it was. This issue will not come to vote. I am also not happy about the courts being able to legislate as they are.

Just when I thought I'd get some studying done tonight, you give me a whole new game to play.  

Secular society is based on democratic vote, true.  But democracy is a means, not the end.  The end, according to our founding fathers and a lot of other smart people, is individual liberty.  That's why we have the bill of rights, the constitution, and courts - so that people can't just vote away other people's individual liberty (or their own).  Whether it works this way in practice is debateable.  

To use one of Miko's examples, picture a situation with 5 men and one woman.  The 5 men vote to gang rape the woman.  The woman, obviously, votes against.  Well, who has the democratic majority?  Does that make the 5 right?  Of course not.

In much the same way, our country's wealthy and productive citizens are slowly being gang raped by the poor/lefty/socialist voters of the country - through taxation for welfare and other social programs.  Here, a lot of the righties are trying to continue to gang rape the invididual rights of a small demographic - homosexuals (ed: clarity).

That's the function of the courts and the Constitution - to safeguard the individual against the will of the masses and those put into power by the masses.  In many cases, I wish that both the courts did, and the founding fathers had done, a better job.

[texace]

Gay couples of either gender cannot produce gay kids. Homosexuality is not inherited nor obtained. It is a decision.

If a gay couple decides to adopt a kid, which is the basis for all the hoopty arguing, then someone assumes the kid will be gay, or will not turn out right for not having a mother or a father figure.

That is not true...

[miko2d]

JB73: ...biblically marrige is a union between a man and a woman.

 That is not entirely correct.
 Biblicaly, marriage is a union between a man and one or more women (and their maids).
 The jews were God's original chosen people and they were polygynous.

 Jacob Married Leah and also Rachel and God was approving of it (Genesis 29 & 30).


Chairboy: Gosh, if marriage is defined as something that is church driven...

 That's BS. There is obviously no church or religious ceremony that need to be involved for God to recognise marriage as valid - only the intent of the parties.

 Jacob saw Leah only the morning after he slept with her thinking she was her sister Rachel, whom he wanted. So there was certainly no religious ceremony involved - or any ceremony besides the verbal agreement of the father and the husband;

29:21 And Jacob said unto Laban, Give [me] my wife, for my days are fulfilled, that I may go in unto her.

 29:22 And Laban gathered together all the men of the place, and made a feast.

 29:23 And it came to pass in the evening, that he took Leah his daughter, and brought her to him; and he went in unto her.

 29:24 And Laban gave unto his daughter Leah Zilpah his maid [for] an handmaid.

 29:25 And it came to pass, that in the morning, behold, it [was] Leah: and he said to Laban, What [is] this thou hast done unto me? did not I serve with thee for Rachel? wherefore then hast thou beguiled me?

 But when Jacob did not treat Leah as well as Rachel - even though he did not love her and was tricked into marrying her, God made Rachel barren and gave Leah several sons.
 Later He relented and gave Rachel sons too.

29:30 And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years.

 29:31 And when the LORD saw that Leah [was] hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel [was] barren.

 29:32 And Leah conceived, and bare a son, and she called his name Reuben: for she said, Surely the LORD hath looked upon my affliction; now therefore my husband will love me.


30:22 And God remembered Rachel, and God hearkened to her, and opened her womb.

 30:23 And she conceived, and bare a son; and said, God hath taken away my reproach.

 miko

[Frogm4n]

If all you got are religious reasons for gays not  being allowed to marry then you have no arguement.

[SaburoS]

Originally posted by hawker238
I didn't want to put this in the other thread because it was already full of arguments and debates, so its going here.

Do you think that a child age 10-18 going through middle and high school with two dads will turn out ok?  I have no problem with gay marriage and such, but I feel that an adolescent's life is tough enough as it is.  If I had homosexual parents, high school would turn into a daily hell.  Gay parents can love, nuture, and raise a child well, but can that kid survive society in his adolescense?

...as opposed to an upbringing without any parents at all?
Yeah, you'd survive.

[scout]

Originally posted by Kieran
Creamo-

As far as I know, people don't choose to be axe murderers either. Yet we still have people arguing against the death penalty because of home environments and the impact they have on
the perps. So it appears we believe environment can contribute to something as extreme as murder, but can't possibly be involved in
sexual orientation. Interesting viewpoint.

It's been tried (influencing sexual orientation). A failure from the start (at 22 months) despite all stops being pulled, surgical remake, *everybody* lied to him starting with his parents.

[midnight Target]

Just an observation....

People say that you should become more conservative as you get older. Seems logical, more to lose, more perpective, more interest in the bottom line instead of the process.

I say that there are some issues that just become common sense.

Gun control for example. Silly to advocate the complete control of guns. Ain't gonna happen. So lets try to make the world safer through education and training.

Gay marriage is one of these no-brainers. If two people want to make a life together... well freakin let 'em.

[hyena426]

...as opposed to an upbringing without any parents at all?

well,there are plenty of parents tring to get kids,,no kid today will go with out parents unless there in juvenile detention all the time,, my brother been on a waiting list for over 5 years for adoption,,gots a good full time job,,works hard,,makes good money,,owns a nice house,,great country location with school bus access,,and he is married,,but there are so many parents out there tring to get kids its ridiculous,,he mite never get a kid,,because there are millions of people,,including gay parents tring to get the same kids,,adoption is not easy and there is a good chance you will never get a kid,,no matter what age

[midnight Target]

There are about 500,000 kids out there who are "at risk" to never be adopted. They are too old, or have health issues or they are the wrong race. We need all the loving adults we can get to raise these kids.

[Rude]

Originally posted by midnight Target
There are about 500,000 kids out there who are "at risk" to never be adopted. They are too old, or have health issues or they are the wrong race. We need all the loving adults we can get to raise these kids.

So we will fix one problem by promoting another?

What's wrong with promoting marriage, discouraging divorce and teaching abstinance?

A man loving another man doesn't really promote the family does it?

Or is homosexuality good for us as a society....My Two Dad's kinda promotion thru the school systems a good thing too?

Just curious:)

[hyena426]

There are about 500,000 kids out there who are "at risk" to never be adopted.

get rid of the system and maybe these kids would be adopted,,,my brother wanted any kid,,no matter the age,,or race or sex,,he just wanted a kid for him and his wife to raize and give them a good home to inherit,,and a life,,,but unless that kid is allready related to you,,or knows you from freind of the family,,there is a small chance you will ever be able to adopt a kid,{its all luck} he went threw hell,,just to get on a waiting list,,a list that he may never get a kid from,,list he has been on for years,,he will never see a kid

everyone makes it seem like all you have to do is say,,hey!! i wanna adopt a kid and they give you one,,,nope,,lol,,its not that easy,,you can have a great house,,great family,,good clean record,,and still never see a kid,,,,been there done that with him,,his wife cant have kids,,and he has been tring for over 9 years to get appoved,,his home and record was appoved,,finaly he got on a list,,and been there ever sence,,i think he has finaly gave up,,,but i think he still gots his fingers crossed

[Kieran]

Originally posted by midnight Target
There are about 500,000 kids out there who are "at risk" to never be adopted. They are too old, or have health issues or they are the wrong race. We need all the loving adults we can get to raise these kids.

I guess the assumption is that gay men and women would adopt these children if only they were allowed to marry? You think this is going to make one iota of difference to these kids? No way. The same kids are going to be left behind regardless. Very much a straw man.

[Saurdaukar]

I dont like homos.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Rude

A man loving another man doesn't really promote the family does it?

Families seem to do just fine without promotion.