Question to Finns

[Thrawn]

"     There is little doubt that Canada's formidable Air Division had a sobering influence on the Soviets.  Their MiG squadrons were not thought to be up to snuff in equipment compared to the Canadair Sabres; and the cocky Canadians were sure they outmatched the Soviets in fighting spirit.  In that spring of 1953 the Soviets shot down NATO aircraft over Germany and tensions were running high.  Shortly afterwards, they tested NATO's resolve by sending MiGs in squadron strength over Munich and firing on US F-84s.  This prompted the deployment to Furstenfeldbruck of RCAF Sabres, each squadron serving a week long deployment, and the Soviet muscle-flexing in the skies over southern Germany came to a stop.

     About this time RCAF Sabre pilots began conducting a bit of thier own harrassment.  On occasion (sometimes official, but mostly for the heck of it) a flight of gleaming Sabres would cross the buffer zone at high level and enter East German airspace.  The RCAF Yellow Jack operatoin at Metz, their radar "eyes" on the ground, would soon detect MiGs rising to intercept and would radio a warning.  The cocky Sabre pilots would then nose over, "boom" the East Germans and streak back over the border on the deck.  Great fun, especially when there was no way the Soviets could catch them."


-"Sixty Years: The RCAF and CF Air Command 1924-1984", Larry Milberry - General Editor.

http://www.canavbooks.com/Publications/60Years/

[genozaur]

Originally posted by Raven_2
Toad, about parties.

You don`t understand. Communism is a form of democracy. But it works in other way. Communism is direct democracy. There were no elected candidates that represents people. People rule directly, throught local labour organizations. For example, my parents flat was given to them by fabric they worked, I goes into school, builded on fabric money, all teachers were payed from fabric money also and so on. This called "shefstvo", something like "patronage". Fabrics, ruled by labour unions ("profsoyuz"), built all needed infrastructure for their workers - schools, hospitals, houses, stadiums and so on.

Elections? Why? People rule by themself. Only thing, that was ruled by government is foreign poltitics and main vectors of industrial development. That was The Party exist for. And Party was opened for ALL people. Anyone can join it - and anyone can get up to the Kreml. Gorbachev was combine driver. Yeltsin was builder. There were no "elite".

Party was opened for anyone for join. So, party represent opinion of anyone. There were discussions, there were wings.

"One party = totalitarism" only in western liberal democracy model. And we have different model. And it work for us.

CORRECTION : the word 'fabric' used in the above post must be read as 'factory'.

[genozaur]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Genozaur, you are so clever to bring up things that do not have anything to do with your false assertion that the US troops occupy Germany or Japan.

I will type slowly so you can maybe get this.

Forward deployment:

We have troops in Germany and Japan because of mutual agreements.  
We had an agreement with PI, but when the Phillipine Senate voted against extending the presence of Clark and Subic leases, we left.

Same would go for Germany and Japan.  Should those governments decide that we should go home, we would leave, following whatever rules are laid down in the agreements we and they have signed.

If you wish you may study the politics of the Peloponnesian War and see if Sparta had a similar relationship with Thebes, but it really does not make any difference to Germany, Japan, and the United States if you do.

Holden, I am a philologist, and I can't care less about the politically correct wording of a politically charged amerispeak term "forward deployment."
Tell me one thing. Was there a moment in time when the USA occupation of Germany and Japan ended (i.e. the occupational troops withdrew from the occupied countries) ?

So, I am repeating my very inconvenient for you question : ' When did the Roman occupation of Iudea effectively become forward development ?'

[bikekil]

Genozaur,

I can't see any reason why should i care about your historical education, so believe what you want to believe and think what you want to think.. i'm fine withi it.

Here is a map - looks like a border conflict to you? Or does the Soviets climed that Warsaw (as a border line is there) was ever a part of them country? Interesting...



and here a map signed by ribbentrop and Stalin:

yeah.. a border conflict, where Soviet liberated Ukraine and Belorussia.. the same way like later liberated us.. for more then 40 years

Glad that we liberated ourselves in '89 and Ukraine just did it recently

you can also look here:
http://www.ska.pl/biorytm/tankista.htm


In my opinion the discussion about the Soviet Invasion on our lands won't change anything. facts are like they are, everyone will think what he think, so why to argue? From my or Polish point of view your opinion does not change anything... you have your right to think the same.

That or other way... you about 300 posts ago i said it's pointless.. and i was right

As for the Ukraine and Belorussia we could discuss if the borders are correct or not, also after WW2 Poland was "moved" to the west, so Germans could discuss with us the same thing (actually we had nothing to say about our borders... so the could discuss with Russia, US and UK nowdays ) but it's a trashtalking.
Borders are like they are now, and i'm ok with it, if Ukraine and Belorussia are ok with it as well, then i'm happy. There is no point in changing anything and starting another war

Happy Easter

[genozaur]

Originally posted by bikekil
Genozaur,

I can't see any reason why should i care about your historical education, so believe what you want to believe and think what you want to think.. i'm fine withi it.

Here is a map - looks like a border conflict to you? Or does the Soviets climed that Warsaw (as a border line is there) was ever a part of them country? Interesting...



and here a map signed by ribbentrop and Stalin:

yeah.. a border conflict, where Soviet liberated Ukraine and Belorussia.. the same way like later liberated us.. for more then 40 years

Glad that we liberated ourselves in '89 and Ukraine just did it recently

you can also look here:
http://www.ska.pl/biorytm/tankista.htm
http://www.ska.pl/biorytm/slub1.jpg

In my opinion the discussion about the Soviet Invasion on our lands won't change anything. facts are like they are, everyone will think what he think, so why to argue? From my or Polish point of view your opinion does not change anything... you have your right to think the same.

That or other way... you about 300 posts ago i said it's pointless.. and i was right

Bik, that's why you nation is so miserable now.
Because you are unable to appreciate your own wise people, and you don't want to listen to anybody else's good advice.

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by genozaur
Was there a moment in time when the USA occupation of Germany and Japan ended (i.e. the occupational troops withdrew from the occupied countries) ?

Was there a moment in time when the USA was asked to leave?  Does Japan and Germany have a democratically elected government or are they answerable to the USA?  If so, I am given pause to Germany's position on the invasion of Iraq.  Must be some double plus good US conspiracy.  


Hey the US has military personel stationed in every NATO country, I guess they are occupying them as well.  Hey wait a second, Canada has military personel stationed in the US!  Does that mean that Canada is also occupying the US?  

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by genozaur
Tell me one thing. Was there a moment in time when the USA occupation of Germany and Japan ended (i.e. the occupational troops withdrew from the occupied countries) ?

Allied occupation of Japan ended in 1952, with the exeption of Okinawa, (1972) and Iwo Jima (1973)

Allied occupation of (west) Germany ended in 1955.

They had formal ceremonies and everything.  I'm sure it must have made the papers.

[genozaur]

Originally posted by Toad
LOL!

Deny, deny, deny.

I wasn't referring to the Soviet murder of the civilians on KAL 007.

I was referring to the multiple Soviet murders of US military personnel flying recon aircraft in ICAO International Airspace.

During the Cold War period of 1945-1977, a total of more than forty reconnaissance aircraft were shot down in the European and Pacific areas.

It's true that a few of these had gone off course and entered Soviet airspace.

Instead of escorting them OUT of Soviet airspace like we did with your Bears that strayed into our airspace down the East Coast of the US on their way to Cuba, YOU them down.

Shooting down unarmed transport category aircraft, like C-130's,that strayed into your airspace. And you wonder why you are viewed as barbarians.

Toad, foreign reconnaissance aircraft (even unarmed ones as you claim) were always considered by the Soviet military doctrine (and still are considered by Russia and some other countries) as presenting grave danger for the defence system, so they were, are, and will be shot down without mercy. God bless the souls of the dead pilots. But you better talk to your former commanders who perfectly knew the Soviet rules of engagement for such situations.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by genozaur
Toad, foreign reconnaissance aircraft (even unarmed ones as you claim) were always considered by the Soviet military doctrine (and still are considered by Russia and some other countries) as presenting grave danger for the defence system, so they were, are, and will be shot down without mercy. God bless the souls of the dead pilots. But you better talk to your former commanders who perfectly knew the Soviet rules of engagement for such situations.

So as long as it's policy, it's not barbaric.... got it.

[genozaur]

Originally posted by Toad
I'm actually HAPPY that you try to justify the Soviet shootdown of KAL 007.

It just proves the point even better.

It fits perfectly with your denial of Katyn.

The world knows what the Soviets did, even if you do not.

I think it's important to record the fact that there are still Russians denying these barbarous acts.

You want to know why the world views Russians as barbaric? Because of Russians like you!

Toad, did you miss my post about KAL 007.
This plane was used as a flying retransmitter for the RC-135 which flew parallel to the doomed airliner, and Marisat was right in time to fly above them all.
So, please, please skip this smart-alecy CIA stunt, and let's talk about other incidents. And do not tell me anymore about James Bond proudly sporting the number of his license to kill "007." The mother-loving junkheads who organized this "mission to death" are still receiving their full pensions from the US government.

[genozaur]

Originally posted by Thrawn
Was there a moment in time when the USA was asked to leave?  Does Japan and Germany have a democratically elected government or are they answerable to the USA?  If so, I am given pause to Germany's position on the invasion of Iraq.  Must be some double plus good US conspiracy.  


Hey the US has military personel stationed in every NATO country, I guess they are occupying them as well.  Hey wait a second, Canada has military personel stationed in the US!  Does that mean that Canada is also occupying the US?  

Canada is the member of the Commonwealth, so the US is occupied by Britain. Don't forget to sing 'God Save the Queen' when raising the American flag early in the morning.

[Holden McGroin]

The following is not meant as a personal attack, but just a observation of behavioral phenomenon.

You're an idiot, genozaur.

[genozaur]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
So as long as it's policy, it's not barbaric.... got it.

Holden, the USSR suffered the loss of its Air Force in June of 1941 because, before Germany attacked the Soviet Union, the 'Red Falcons of Stalin' had been ordered to escort German recon planes out of the Soviet airspace.
Don't even hope that with your persuasive powers you can trick the Russian Air Force into changing that "barbaric" policy.
I am glad that you are still so naive that don't distinguish between good and bad. Probably because no foreign invaders tried to implement their genocidal plans against your country.

[Holden McGroin]

Genozaur, the Russians suffered so badly in WW2 because Stalin purged the military of anyone who Josef figured was a personal threat.  There was no leadership in the army, because they were all dead or in Siberian work camps.

The economy of the Soviet Union was a mess, because Stalin and the central committee followed the stupid policy of central control of the economy.  So the economic engine that wins wars was not in existance in the USSR.

As some of my ancestry is Pima Indian, I can easily say genocidal foreign invaders took over my country.

My previous observation seems to be gaining strength.

[Raven_2]

to Holden

>>You're an idiot, genozaur.

USA living change people in that way very fast, Holden...

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