Author Topic: HT, Donut map FT  (Read 4007 times)

Offline volvo744

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HT, Donut map FT
« Reply #105 on: September 09, 2006, 05:37:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Donzo
Is this new?

Can't they still be captured from the outside?


uhoh.......

Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #106 on: September 09, 2006, 09:07:57 AM »
I could design a map that would cater to TT and FT afficionados as well as strat players but believe me that won't happen in any hurry. The whole experience is sooooooooooo negative but I won't bore you with that.

That is soooo true.

Every new map that I have seen come out ... the developer(s) take so much un-called for watermelon from inconsiderate people berating their map design.

I can bet the ranch that this type of behaviour has stopped many who thought about making a map ... and as Dantoo has said ... those who have made maps will never make another one.

Making a map is no small task considering the tools that one has to work with.

Cudos to Flayed for bringing his map to the BBS to "ask" what could/should be done to make the map fun for everyone. Maybe he will move forward with his design ... if he is treated with respect and gratitude for making the effort.
SlapShot - Blue Knights

Guppy: "The only risk we take is the fight, and since no one really dies, the reward is the fight."

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #107 on: September 09, 2006, 09:45:34 AM »
dantoo... I actualy understood what you said there about the difference between TT and FT and why!

I say this because, other than Fester... I have never understood what the map makers were trying to do.

I never understood what kind of gameplay or gameplay balance they were trying to achieve.   I would love to talk to you about this someday.

I realize that the way strat works.... if it changes in some way... it makes any map design work completely differently but... we haven't had anything new in years so far as "strat".

I am not being sarcastic when I ask why the mapmakers go to such lengths to make it so that it is difficult for large groups to fight each other... why they largest distance allowed between fields?   It seem that it a guarentee of really bad gameplay for all but those who would win bases by huge hordes or by "sneak"  neither of which is much fun for anyone except possibly them.  Why have maps where it is so easy for 500 fighter planes to all hide from each other?

Is it "historical"?   I realize that the normal fighter pilot only every spent a couple of hours real time, or none... every actualy fighting but..  This is a game...  it is supposed to skip to the good parts I thought.

I would be interested in talking to you in private if you prefered.

lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's

Offline Wilbus

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« Reply #108 on: September 09, 2006, 10:20:47 AM »
Yup we sure had some great fights. Balor was a late arrival to the knit team aswell so we were, in the end, 4 vs 3 dedicated people who wanted to fight. Unfortunatly some Knit idiots decided we did indeed have to much fun, and of course, decided it would be best to low level bomb the entire bish field.

Thanks...

Hajo, Apar, Straffo on the Bish side aswell as Cerberos, Balor and Jebus on our knit side. We'll have to do it again some time soon :)

As far as my an Straffo's discussion goes though... that yellow bastige owes me a kill

And to add to the discussion some, this is probarly the worst map IMO.

I've always been a dedicated fighter jock in AH, that is what I enjoy flying. I enjoy the fights where skill is a part. In FT, there isn't all that much skill needed. Take off, cherry pick a few low cons and then, eventually, get cherry picked your self. The hamster wheel keeps turning and the hordes I guess... are satisfied.

Unfortunatly those of us who have been here since the early days may not agree with this gameplay but it is the way it has turned. More to the "Quake" style rather then "Aces" style as it started out as.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2006, 10:23:39 AM by Wilbus »
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Dantoo

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« Reply #109 on: September 09, 2006, 11:05:10 AM »
lazs really happy to chat to you about it anytime.  Give me a call when you see me on.

Willy FT is only for those who actually want to go there.  If you don't want to be the "Ace in the Hole" then that's cool.  The map caters as best as it can for most styles of play.  That was it's design purpose.   You are still finding other fights on this map and you always will.  I saw you landing 5-6 kills a few times tonight.  You're too good to be jumping in there anyway :)

What no map will ever do is be everything to every person.  That is why a variety of maps is required.  This is just a single map in a series.  The reason it is so controversial is that it is the first to fence of an official furball that never ends and that furball, as far as strat goes, is totally pointless.  It is not pointless however to the fine folk that get in there and shoot the livin' crappo out of one another.  They are having fun their way.  Lots of fun, I think, judging by the temper of the posts on this board.  Good on them.  I have my fun other places on the map.

I will say one thing about this map and the HOle.  It gave me the biggest laugh I have ever had in AH.  I watched a guy spawn a tiger, drive it out of the vh, turn and charge straight over the 5000ft cliff down into the water!  Lord help us!
I get really really tired of selective realism disguised as a desire to make bombers easier to kill.

HiTech

Matthew 24:28 For wherever the carcass is, there is where the vultures gather together.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #110 on: September 09, 2006, 11:44:08 AM »
dantoo.. a few of the things you say are a tad disconcerting like "I'm not really a furballer" and telling wilbus that he really is "too good to go there".

Not sure how you meant that.. you do seem to realize at least that it is fun for some and... in all fairness... you are the one who provided the opportunity.

In your opinion is the whorde and the sneak a legitimate gameplay feature that is worth preserving?   in other words... do you feel you have to have a lot of far apart fields so that there is no real chance of furball or even fights happening there and spoiling the whorde or sneak?

It just seems to me that closer fields offer the most choice for everyone?

Addmitedly.. I am looking at it from the viewpoint of someone who rarely is on more than 2 hours at a time in a 24 hr period.... I couldn't care less about the fields except as a place to fight... unlike wilbus...  I see the field capture thing as the hamster wheel...  I can come back the next night and often.... the fields are back where they were 24 hours ago or... at least close enough that there is no real difference...

I have probly seen 3 resets in the entire time I have been on AH2 and they were pretty anticlimatic...  I had no real interest in them or even.. who won it...  I certainly don't need the 25 perk points that equal about 10 minutes of normal furballing for me...   I don't use em in any case enough to care.... I have 25,000 fighter perks... they are petty worthless to me.  especialy in an arena where the best planes are 10 times better than the worst allready without any perks involved.

lazs
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Offline Noir

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« Reply #111 on: September 09, 2006, 04:44:19 PM »
Willy did fly into FT...picking in Ki84 as usual :p

Just for people who tend to categorize players...I'm in dantoo's squad and we play strat (milkrun lol) with the squad and others most of the time. We use all planes, vehicules and weapons of the game to capture the "best" fields around to win the war. I don't care about the 25 perks, wich represents a landed hurricane ride, but some players need a goal, and winning the war isn't the main AH goal ?

But when US players are on (300+), I switch mask and turn into the evil furballer ! cause strat is useless against the horde (especially when you see the flood on channel2), and I better enjoy a good fight all cannons bazin, or I join ghi's mission If I feel like bomb the crapaud out of thing !!!

My point is that you can be a strat player, furballer, gv battle geek at times, so an arena where you can have all that things packed in is the best !!! That was Dantoo's ambition I think, but it looks like players just can't let other players play how they want. I'm one of them, I caught myself yelling at some player who wanted to capture v bases, saying "v bases on this map are useless !!" but a vbase still counts in the field totals, so do FT bases.

Maybe HT can put FT fields out of the totals in final victory ?

(PS : KOTH is a blast)
now posting as SirNuke

Offline Wilbus

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« Reply #112 on: September 09, 2006, 04:57:31 PM »
Well yes I do spend some time in FT (or PT as I call it now, as in Pickertown). It does give me some quick plessure from time to time, but it doesn't last for very long.

PT is good for some quick action I agree on that, but the problem I have with it is that more often then not there are too many people there and too few willing to fight in any other place of the map.

However, as has been stated, it is only one of the maps in rotation.

Personally I much prefeer the small old maps. Why? Cause they give good, concentrated action, large or even massive furballs with less pickin then in PT. Of course pickin is very common in all furballs, that is part of the furballs and that is part of what makes it fun. I guess one problem I have with PT is that the fields are all 5k.

PT is good for one thing though, perk scorewhoring. Just passed 10k today thanks to the lil MC.205. 6 sorties 300 perks
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline straffo

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« Reply #113 on: September 09, 2006, 05:19:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Noir
But when US players are on (300+), I switch mask and turn into the evil furballer ! cause strat is useless against the horde (especially when you see the flood on channel2), and I better enjoy a good fight all cannons bazin, or I join ghi's mission If I feel like bomb the crapaud out of thing !!!


Freudian slip ?
Droping frogs on your enemies , that's weird !


PS: I'm realy yellow Wilbuz tonight ... to much irish coffee ... I lowered with success my kill ratio and died stupidly countless of time .. before my stomach deciced to get ride of the alcool I've put inside ...

Now I feel ... dead ?

Offline Wilbus

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« Reply #114 on: September 09, 2006, 05:46:56 PM »
LOL Straffo!

Irish Coffee is good that's for sure but might wanna take it a bit easy with it ;)

Hope you feel better soon :)
« Last Edit: September 09, 2006, 05:49:12 PM by Wilbus »
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Dantoo

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« Reply #115 on: September 09, 2006, 11:29:15 PM »
lazs - Willy and I are old friends, gentle dig at his gripe, nothing in it.  Interesting to see the back of this thread has a heap of guys posting here that I have great respect for.  That is the only reason I am posting in it myself just by the way.

My comment that I'm not a furballer is an accurate self description.  I'm not.  I find furballs completely mind numbing.  I can't maintain interest beyond about a minute.  Finding myself in one, I usually either leave or fly straight level and slow so somebody can have the fun of shooting me.  If the game was about exclusive furballing I wouldn't have bothered to stay a day.  I am a special events afficianado.  MA is mostly just a practice room for me, but I really enjoy the situational challenges of strat play.  All that said, I know and completely understand that others have different and legitimate outlooks.  Lately I am trying to walk a few yards in the other guy's shoes and furball a bit, but I find myself gritting my teeth and de-focussing with glazed over eyes just the same.

It is a way over-simplification to categorise players as strat and furballers.  There are other types and lots of in-betweens.  AH caters to all of them to some degree or they wouldn't be here.

The Hole in the Donut caters to whole group of guys n gals that crave high intensity, high speed, of the moment, entertainment.  I do respect them but tend to sit back and watch them holding onto my bottom lip slowly stretching it down.  I probably mis-categorise it as the difference between chess and checkers.

However there are others it caters to as well.  It is a tremendous place to take the new guy and start to stress and demonstrate the needs of SA and positioning.  All the guys that scream "I got no check 6" might profitably spend some time in there just learning survival rather than shooting with cannon and mouth.

Perhaps the people that constantly complain about the planes all the others are flying might find some value in the Hole.  Here they might concentrate on looking for the weaknesses in the La7, Spit 16, C202 etc..  

What I am saying is that even if you give them the tools doesn't mean they will pick them up, but if they do, there is no telling what they might create for themselves.  Making a map that offers a variety of situations for a variety of player types is no easy feat.  You can't make one that is perfect for everybody.

On fields being close together.  There are a number of considerations.  Firstly, yes you are right, HTC have a preferred distance between fields.  I might presume that this was derived from long experience.  Fester was the first to push that boundary and he made some folks happy by doing so.  I can tell you though that there is a fair cadre that are frustrated by fields being so close.  In the strat world it means you have to have numbers to influence a section of map where fields are close together.  If grossly uneven numbers are required to effect any result then there is little happiness on any side.

By numbers I wish to qualify that I don't mean a local and temporal superiority gained through teamwork.  I mean just having a large advantage in side numbers on the server for an hour or more.  It's not a great deal of fun for any side when one country has a huge numbers advantage.  It follows that if you need such to influence strat progress on a map it isn't a fun map.

The dynamics of the MA game change constantly as player numbers and quality change with the minutes.  Trying to design a map for low numbers, high numbers and grossly unbalanced numbers is a challenge.  Trying to cater for as many player preferences on top of that is quite a job of work.

Rgds.
I get really really tired of selective realism disguised as a desire to make bombers easier to kill.

HiTech

Matthew 24:28 For wherever the carcass is, there is where the vultures gather together.

Offline Dichotomy

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« Reply #116 on: September 10, 2006, 12:04:47 AM »
Dantoo...

very well stated post and I understand exactly what you're saying.  I enjoy the fighter town aspect of the doughnut map A LOT!! because as I've said in an earlier post it gives me the option of logging on for 30 minutes and flying against people who want an air war but I also enjoy the option of base capture.  

My thoughts are to see if there is a logical and reasonable way to modify existing maps to include FT and TT to give the members this option.  

I'm not against the strat rats in any way, shape, or form.  Again, as I've stated previously, if I 'know' I've got 2 to 4 hours to play for whatever reason I'd probably be interested in joining a mission in the MA.  

To me its all about options available when you log on.

Am I going to take my $16.02 and go home if this isn't heartened to?  Nope.. I'm having fun nonetheless but I've thoroughly enjoyed the last few days having the option to find a quick air battle no matter how many times I've gotten capped or joining a mission if I have the time.

Nonetheless I do believe my $$ are well spent and will not gripe publicly if I find something to my distaste.  That's what PM's are made for IMHO.

JG11 - Dicho37Only The Proud Only The Strong AH Players who've passed on :salute

Offline Wilbus

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« Reply #117 on: September 10, 2006, 03:21:42 AM »
Just to clearify, I hate FT :)

But I love furballs. Flying fighters is what I play AH for.

I've gone through every single aspect of AH over the years part from dedicated long time Buff pilot.

I've done field capturing, strat porking, train porking, porking , furballing etc.

I've come to figure out (quite a few years ago actually) that I much prefer to more reaslistic way of flying, I love flying to live, fly to land.

Furballing endlessly is fun, but not forever, not for more then an hour or so and I can understand the people who don't fly much enjoy the FT alot.

It is not for me though even though I have spent quite some time there these past days as I can not find action anywhere else.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #118 on: September 10, 2006, 09:43:33 AM »
wilbus.. perhaps if you had gotten into the spirit of FT and not been a picker in a ki84 yourself you would have seen a different aspect of it?   You could fly a good early war plane down low and see how that worked.   I did ok and had a blast.

dantoo...  I am sorry but your last post left me cold.   What I see is someone who thinks the things I do are mind numbingly boring while I end up not even blinking for a hour....

At the same time... I see what you like to be doing to be as much fun as a board game or..... high tea... or... a nice chat with the book club...  climbing and listening to the drone of AH engines while doing nothing for an hour drives me crazy...  I would rather even do the dishes.

You claim the difference is between chess and checkers.....  I think the strat is too simplistic to be even considered checkers but... if we use that analodgy... I would say it is more like checkers  and checkers where you are the only player.. in the "strat" game... the other player is in another room playing checkers with himself... you both have buddies cheering you on tho and even helping you move.... just no opponent.

Your experiance with festers map is frustration but... that is the oppossite of the chatter I see and hear on 200 and here...  it would seem that festers envelope pushing is very popular with just about everyone else but the people you know.   Look at the action..

That is the real test... look at the people and where they go... the fights on festers concentrate on the close fields...  people go to the fights.... when a good fight is found it goes for hours with no one trying to take anything... until someone spoils it by taking out the FH..

And that is the rub...it is very hard to find another such fight on most maps after that one is spoiled.  

I really do believe that most people only get on for an hour or two at a time and I just don't see how a week long strat to win the war helps anyone.   I believe that most people came here to have air combat not play some kind of board game with really weak goals and tools.

The cheapest board game has better strat so....

Oh... I get told all the time... "make a map if you think you can do better"...  Truth is... I couldn't... I can barely open my email...  I also have too many hobies as it is..   But... this is the best I can do... give input.   Those that think I am wrong have only to look at festers map... it is far and away the most popular with the least grumbling.

If I could... I would take the pizza (or some of the others) and move the fields to the 3/4 distance for the most part and I bet they would all be just as popular as Festers.

your ft is a great and unique idea... I had suggested something allmost exactly the same years ago but... my idea would only differ in that I would make it an "early war only area".

I love your FT but.....  I like Festers map better even than that.

lazs
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Offline Wilbus

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« Reply #119 on: September 10, 2006, 11:29:47 AM »
Festers map is exelent, as are some others. It is just the FT map I don't like.

As far as me pickin in a Ki84 in the FT I am not sure what you base it upon. I have flown maybe 4 sorties in the FT in the Ki84.

The rest have been in PJ's, 205's (quite a few in the 205) and some other early planes. Hell, I even took up a 202 in the FT the other day, flew 4 sorties and landed all (with kills) but even that didn't bring me much fun.

No matter if you are a picker or a pick-e you will end up both pickin and being picked there, there are no alternatives, that is the way it has been designed.

I understand why people like it, I just don't like it myself nor will I learn to like.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.