Author Topic: The terrorists are winning  (Read 2484 times)

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #60 on: September 12, 2006, 10:41:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by JB88
what skuzzy said.


what did he say? Revolt? ah, I think I'll pass on that one ..thanks anyway
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Offline moot

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« Reply #61 on: September 12, 2006, 10:51:28 AM »
What's that in your sig?
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Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #62 on: September 12, 2006, 11:15:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ikeprof
I am not a licensed engineer, but I do know enough about physics and engineering to know that the stories we have been told in terms of the "official explanation" are hogwash.


I am a licensed engineer in Oregon, and I find the "official explanations" of the Pentagon and WTC damage completely logical and plausible.  I have no qualms whatsoever in believing:

1. a jetliner containing 6000+ gal of fuel that hits a building in excess of 450 mph can do enough damage and the resulting fire can heat the steel past the austenitic phase change temperature to sufficienty weaken the structure and cause collapse.

2. The collapse of two 110 story structures can cause enough collateral damage to and cause fires in adjacent structures to cause the collapse of WTC 7 (which stored a great deal of diesel for emergency generators) as well as the other 5 or 6 buildings within the WTC complex.

3. A jetliner hitting a concrete wall (Pentagon) at speeds in excess of 450 mph will cause the disintegration of the jetliner and do the witnessed amount of destruction to that concrete structure.
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Offline Eagler

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« Reply #63 on: September 12, 2006, 12:01:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by moot
What's that in your sig?


who me?
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Offline moot

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« Reply #64 on: September 12, 2006, 12:07:36 PM »
That quote of Galland, yes.. how does it have its place there, under that previous post of yours?
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Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #65 on: September 12, 2006, 12:42:16 PM »
Hello Funked,

Quote
Originally posted by FUNKED1
I'm shocked that an anti-muslim hate website would try to deny documented muslim casualties.  What's next, a link to kkk.org on how slavery wasn't all that bad?


Come now Funked, I know you can do better than that.

First, the KKK hate all minorities simply because they are minorities. They consider them to be biologically inferior to Caucasians, they believe the to be sub-humans who are to be subjugated or eliminated. They are quite open about hating all non-whites. Their hatred is not based on the actions or the ideologies subscribed to or espoused by non-whites.

The Religion of Peace website, doesn't hate Muslims, it doesn't hate people because of race or ethnicity, it happens to believe that Islam is not a peaceful religion and attempts to document that. In this they do resemble people who don't hate the Chinese or the North Koreans, but do think Communism is dangerous and needs to be stopped. Nor is TROP a pro-Bush, right-wing website, they have been open in their criticisms of the President and the administration, and they don't think the current middle-eastern foreign policy will succeed. Nor, I should add, are they particularly pro-Christian, in fact I've often winced or rolled my eyes at some of the "all religions are equally stupid and we need to get past them" style editorials they've linked to approvingly.

This is in marked contrast to Iraqbodycount.net which is a left-wing group that got started prior to the invasion of Iraq on the supposition that the coalition would kill thousands and thousands of innocent Iraqis. This again is akin to starting a website to track the number of civillian deaths "caused by the allied invasion of Europe" prior to the D-Day landings and then assess the goodness or badness of the Allied cause based on those figures. Regarding their estimates themselves the CBC reported: "But the numbers published on iraqbodycount.net don't distinguish between Iraqis killed by coalition forces or by insurgents, arguing that they are all a result of the March 2003 invasion and the U.S.-led coalition is responsible for preventing them." In other words, whoever killed them, our working assumption is that its all the coalitions fault.

Anyway here is the statement from the "About" page on the Religion of peace. You'll have to point out to me

Quote

 About TheReligionofPeace.com (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/AboutSite.htm)
 
   Ever since 9/11, Americans and others have been asking, "Who are Muslims and why do they want to kill me?"  Western leaders have responded by insisting that Islam is a Religion of Peace.  This is a line that is parroted from some Islamic clerics (presumably the ones who aren't calling for Jihad).  But what does this mean?

Peace can have two different meanings.  Westerners usually think of peace as being free to live one's life as one pleases, and allowing others the freedom to do the same.

But peace is also a condition that can be brought about through subjugation, in which unbelievers are brought under the domination of Islam to live meekly as dhimmis.  Regrettably, this is the sort of peace that the Qur'an and Hadiths (the Islamic traditions) teach.

This non-partisan, straight-shooting Website provides a list of attacks committed by determined Muslims in the name of their faith.  We also provide news from the world of Islam and links to other sites with additional information on the religion for people that want to better understand the violence on the part of thousands and the support or apathy on the part of millions.

Islam is a broad faith and it would be wrong for anyone to stereotype Muslim individuals.  Most, in fact, are perfectly fine, either in spite of Islam or because of their interpretation of it.  In fact, there are exceptional Muslims whose faith gives them character - the tiny handful of Muslim-Americans, for example, who choose to tell the rest of the world that America is not a legitimate target for terrorism.  They stand in sharp contrast to American groups like CAIR and MPAC, which use their influence to complain of petty grievances and inflame hatred against a country that tries hard to accommodate their faith in spite of the violence.

On the other hand, however, Islam is clearly not a religion of peace.  The ridiculous level of violence committed in the name of this religion is staggering, despite the many billions of dollars that are spent each year to prevent attacks.

Nor should Westerners continue to think that the solution to the violence is greater understanding and tolerance for Islam, as Muslim apologists often imply when commenting on high-profile terror attacks.  It is the killers and their supporters who need to learn understanding and tolerance, not their victims.

Islam will be a peaceful religion when Muslims stop preaching hate, stop killing in the name of Allah, and stop remaining apathetic to the violence.  Until this happens, we will faithfully document each of the reasons why this is anything but a "Religion of Peace."
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Viking

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« Reply #66 on: September 12, 2006, 12:50:22 PM »
See Rules #4, #5



Sorry :(
« Last Edit: September 12, 2006, 01:11:05 PM by Viking »

Offline Viking

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« Reply #67 on: September 12, 2006, 12:53:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon
The KKK website, doesn't hate minorities, it doesn't hate people because of race or ethnicity, it happens to believe that non-Caucasians are biologically inferior and attempts to document that.


See how well that works?

Offline Vudak

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« Reply #68 on: September 12, 2006, 01:01:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
See Rule #4, #5


You see, the thing is, I'm much more comfortable with a bunch of Iraqi civilians being the collateral damage in the War On Terror then a bunch of American civilians being so.

I think most Americans feel that way.  I think most Norwegians or whoever would probably feel this way too.  Oh, they might not SAY they feel that way, but let their house get blown up or their civilian relatives killed, and see what they think then.

Since we are unlikely to get everyone to agree to fight it out in Antarctica, there really isn't any choice - collateral damage will occur.  Once again, I'd much rather have an Iraqi family die then my family die.  This probably makes me a monster, or, possibly, human.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2006, 01:08:41 PM by Skuzzy »
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Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #69 on: September 12, 2006, 01:05:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
what did he say? Revolt? ah, I think I'll pass on that one ..thanks anyway
I said nothing about a revolt.  We have it within our power to hold politicians accountable.  You start there.

Doing nothing will yeild nothing, but more of the same.  Quite frankly, I do not think our country can stand more of the same for any period of time.
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Offline Habu

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« Reply #70 on: September 12, 2006, 01:08:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ikeprof
I'm actually not going to even remotely claim to guess as to "who" did anything, however I do believe that the information that we have been given is absolutely not correct in terms of the physics aspects of the collapses of WTC Towers 1,2 and 7...especially 7.

Though it will avail nothing, I served 6 years in the military, have 2 sons in the Navy and regardless of how patriotic I am, I am absolutely allowed the right to examine any evidence and make up my own mind as to whether I am being told the truth or not. It is my opinion that "that" right to do so is not only a right, it is a duty as given us as part of our citizenship.

My gut instinct on watching the original "day of the event" footage was one of "you have to be kidding me/no way that happened".  I think that my gut reaction was based upon being a history channel/national geographic addict and simply devouring hours upon hours of "how it was made" type documentaries.

I am not a licensed engineer, but I do know enough about physics and engineering to know that the stories we have been told in terms of the "official explanation" are hogwash.  That does not mean I know anything more about what really happened, but when I cannot trust the sanctioned story, then it is natural that my suspicions be raised to some degree.  


I am aware that to even question anything, to be a voice that expresses even a moments hesitation in accepting the spoon fed version of the facts of an event is in todays atmosphere is less than patriotic to the point of being considered traitorous.  That my friends is what concerns me the most.  Questioning should never be considered evil.  If you do consider it that, then you in essence handily discard one of the freedoms that distinguishes this country from most others.  

I am not an expert on much of anything, but it is articles written by engineering professors and the like that I think that an open minded person should examine, if nothing more than to do the due diligence that we all have the duty to do.  
 
I was originally going to post links to the various physics and engineering papers written on this topic, but to be honest, the resulting arguments of the various points of the papers would be more effort than it's worth.  I really have no interest in convincing anyone of anything, I simply have an interest in maybe performing a tiny nudge in the interests of not being blind in the name of patriotism.  There have been too many postings on this board that slam those that do not come to the exact same conclusions as others.   Give them a moment of credit towards their intelligence.  Just because I saw a show that said that Kurt Cobain influenced the radical arm of islam and my pug puppy to pilot planes into the towers and the resulting puppy bark shattered the 47 core support columns into 30 ft lengths does not mean that I believe it...that is the beauty of our country, the ability to examine ALL evidence and come to our own conclusions, regardless of whether those conclusions match the official story.  Those that would quiet the right of someone to express their thoughts are more guilty of being unpatriotic in my opinion than those who would express the worst possible opinions as to what happened and who was involved.

In the end, if one comes to the exact same conclusions after examination of other explanations then good..that means that your gut feelings coincided with physics and known facts.  However, physics don't often lie.  

Regardless of how/what happened, it is a tragedy when any event of this magnitude occurs and god bless those that perished in this tragedy.


I am an Metallurgical Engineer with a masters degree. Any Engineering prof or so called expert who says that the heat generated by the fires caused by the fuel in those planes plus the incredible weight of the tower on top of the floors which were burning is not enough to lead to the failure of the strutural steel in those floors is simply an idiot.

And anyone who believes that those fires did not lead to the collaspe, is also by reasons of their lack of education, misguided.

I have seen structural steel beams bend in an ordinary warehouse fire. No where near the temperature of the WTC fire. And they did not have the incredible weight of the upper floors pushing on them as well. The rate the steel defomed at was a combination of the temperature of the steel caused by the fire combined with the load on the beam due to the weight of the building above it. The reason the second building that was hit collasped first is because there were more floors above the fire so the extra weight loaded the weaked beams past failure faster.

Building codes call for the insulation of stuctural steel to prevent them from heating as fast in a fire. The idea is that the fire will pass or be put out in time to prevent heating past the temperature where the beam will start to fail. In the WTC it was believed that the insulation covering the beams had flaked off on many floors leaving them even more vunerable to fire.

Once one floor falls the impact on it hitting the floor below would be much greater than the failure point of the steel in that floor, even though it was not on fire. Thus it fails and so on all the way to the ground. Impact loading is much higher than static loading the building was designed for.

Offline Viking

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« Reply #71 on: September 12, 2006, 01:09:51 PM »
See Rule #4, #5
« Last Edit: September 12, 2006, 01:15:19 PM by Skuzzy »

Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #72 on: September 12, 2006, 01:14:45 PM »
You did not mention it Habu, but the structural design of the towers was such that in the event of any structural failure, the towers would collapse straight down.

This was done to eliminate the massive amount of potential damage/death if the towers fell over, as opposed to collapsing downward.

The towers did exactly what they were designed to do in the advent of a structural failure.
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Offline Viking

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« Reply #73 on: September 12, 2006, 01:15:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
See Rule #4, #5




Again, sorry :(

Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #74 on: September 12, 2006, 01:40:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
See how well that works?


I see so Viking, because you try to prove that the "NeoConservatives" and "men of faith" are wrong and lying and full of hate, you are the same as the KKK?

Any attempt to prove that a particular ideology is untrue is the equivalent of blind unreasoning prejudice based on race? So if I say that I don't believe the truth claims of Islam, and that I think it is founded on a dangerous lie, I'm a "hateful bigot?" Can you explain why then the same people who believe the same thing about Christianity around here are enlightened and wise?

Dosn't make much sense to me, but what would I know, I'm the only KKK preacher who was mentored by African Americans and invites them to fill his pulpit whenever they're around, so I've gotta be confused

SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams