Serious question

[Tumor]

screw it, never mind... a simple discussion free of insults and (amazinhunks) is impossible on this BB.  How about we just cancel christmas and find something to argue about thats worth the time.  Santa lives!

[straffo]

I've yet to understand how you can figure the repartition of spit  online with only a kill % ...

I agree that in one month all spit have 13.5% of all kills but we can't with this number have any information of the distributon of spit population.

ei you can have 40% spit in MA between 20:00 and 22:00 CET then 10% between 22:00 and 00:00 CET ... (but overall those spit can have 13.5 % kills ...)

who nows ?

[Urchin]

Deja... I got 19.89% for the spits and 12.89% for the 109s and 190s...  how could we get different results for something as simple as addition?  

Spit IX = 10.91
Spit V = 4.87
Seafire = 3.57
Spit I = .29
Spit XIV= .25

Total = 19.89%

109G-10 = 3.37
190D-9 = 3.07
190A-8 = 1.87
190A-5 = 1.80
109G-6 = 1.03
109F-4 = .68
109G-2 = .64
190F-8 = .15
Ta-152 = .15
109E-4 = .13

Total = 12.89%

12.89/19.89 = .648, or roughly 64.8% ( i think).  Or, 19.89/12.89= 1.543, or roughly 154.3%.  So the Spits are roughly 1.5 times more common than a 190 or 109, or the 109s and 190s are almost 2/3s as common... depending on your way of saying it .

I think I got all that right.  Either way... it isn't exactly a SMALL difference, so acting like Tac is a moron for saying what he said doesn't make much sense in my opinion.

[Urchin]

Oh, Tumor.. don't take it so seriously .  A lot of these guys will poke fun or make personal attacks because... well... that is what they are good at.  Take it all with a grain of salt, that is my advice.

[Tumor]

Originally posted by Urchin
Oh, Tumor.. don't take it so seriously .  A lot of these guys will poke fun or make personal attacks because... well... that is what they are good at.  Take it all with a grain of salt, that is my advice.

  No offense Urchin, but I'm just sick of the amazinhunk mentality around here.  I've made an attempt to make an adult conversation and pretty much all I get is creeps who find it real easy to insult other's on an internet message board.  Funny how these people come out of the woodwork when it's not face to face.

[Karnak]

Tumor,

Let me put a different view on it for you.

I could do what you guys are doing, except in reverse.  I could base my arguments on what affects me personally and how it affects me.

Let me put it this way, I like flying Mossies.  If the N1K2 and Spitfire get perked it will be a LOT harder for me to fly Mossies with any success.  I can outrun N1K2s and Spits, but if people are all moved into P-51Ds, La-7s, P-38s and Typhoons then my job gets alot harder.  Some of those aircraft out perform my Mossie in every way (La-7) and some in almost all ways (Typhoon rolls worse and P-51 turns very slighty worse).  An MA full of nothing but top end, screamingly fast BnZ planes would be a massive detriment to my enjoyment.  It is hard to use the Mossie as it is, I don't want it to be too much more suicidal.

So, while you may be able to more easily run amok with your Fw190D-9 or Bf109G-10, players who like things such as the Bf110G-2 and Mosquito Mk VI will be impacted in a very negative way.  We like having things we can run from being common in the MA.  It gives us a shot at survival.


But I think that is all secondary to the bigger issue of Spits and N1K2s being neither powerful enough nor common enough to justify being perked.  I also don't buy that whole "UFO" pile 'o crap either.  I've spent enough time in AH Spitfires to know that they bleed energy just fine, the black out at the same G levels and they don't pull 15Gs, hell, I'll bet they don't pull 9Gs.

You and MANDOBLE go a spray disdain and spite at anybody who likes Spitfires and then get holier than thou when we get rude back?  If your going to lower yourself into the sewer, you're going to get toejam on you. Deal with it.

[MANDOBLE]

Originally posted by AKDejaVu
All Spits (Spit I, V, Seafire, IX and XIV): 19.35% of all fighter kills.

Curiously it is extremelly close to my 20%-25% of total kills being spits.

Deja, you are comparing Spit usage vs TOTAL LW usage (except 110), then add Typh and hurris to your statistics and compare RAF vs LW, but that is out of scope in this thread. It is like saying that all USAAF+NAVY usage may surpass the spit usage.

The way you do statistics is too biased, isnt it?

[Fester']

No offense Urchin, but I'm just sick of the amazinhunk mentality around here. I've made an attempt to make an adult conversation and pretty much all I get is creeps who find it real easy to insult other's on an internet message board. Funny how these people come out of the woodwork when it's not face to face.

First you take issue (whine) about the use of certain airplains and then you take issue (whine) when we dont agree with you... Im beginning to see a pattern here.  (this is not just you Tumor, not trying to single you out,m but you snapped first)

Ive yet to see your's and Mandobels or Urchins arguments refuted with anything other than hard data and a perspective that attempts to take in the big picture.  Any perceived rudness can most likely be summed up through people's impatience with having to explain the obvious over and over again.

Your perspective on this (while most certaintly right to you) is selfish and narrow sighted and not wholly based in fact.

Fly whatever plane you want.  You simply need to understand that not everone subscribes to your personal definition of fun and play balance (this is part of growing up) and there are a lot of newer folks with a similar ego to yours (we are all very much alike) who would like to be somewhat competitive.  You were once a dweeb yourself, you weren't born an elitist snob, that takes a long time to develop, allow others the same opportunity you had.  Years from now we will all be shooting eachother down in P-47's and FW190A-8's  what will we squeak about then?

[Karnak]

MANDOBLE,

The percentage of fighter kills is a useless stat.

Bombers, GVs and boats all take their toll and add their numbers.  They all add to the diversity in the MA.

When the Spits are considered in the total, the only real stat representative of diversity, they are 13.5% of the total.


Subtract your kills of bombers, GVs and boats.  What total percentage of your kills do Spits make up at that point?

[MANDOBLE]

Originally posted by Fester
[BYears from now we will all be shooting eachother down in P-47's and FW190A-8's  what will we squeak about then? [/B]

The same as with spit usage now.

And what is obvious for you is not for me. You are a single vote, I'm another. But the single fact that perk system exists and that F4U1C was perked based on usage means that this game has defensive mechanisms against overusage, being that limit at 30%, 20%, 10% or whatever. All of you thinking we are wrong trying to limit some plane usage based on its actual oversuage limit, remember that this was done in the past and was well accepted by most of the comunity, this is not a fantasy nor an absurd.

[Karnak]

MANDOBLE,

You guys are trying to get every bloody Spit perked!!!  Frickin' 1942 and older aircraft!!!!!


Be bloody well satisfied that the Spit XIV, an older aircraft than your precious Dora, is perked at three times the cost of the much newer Ta152H-1.

What kind of damn advantage do you need?

How the hell do you think eliminating Spits will increase the diversity of your fights?

You'll just be here whining about all the P-51s, La-7s, F6F-5s, or N1K2s.

Once you get that too comman aircraft perked it'll be on to the next aircraft that gains favor by virtue of not being perked and becomes so common that you're bored with fighting it.

Where does it end?  Everybody in C.202s?

[Urchin]

Tumor.. the best way to think of this board is to remember back to your high school/ junior high days.  Basically, you have some people that live to put other people down (they would be equivlent to the 'cool kids' in high school).  You have some people that like LW planes (they are the equivlent of the most 'unpopular' kids in high school).  Then you have the in-between people.  As was the case in high school, different people are judged by different standards.  Your main problem here is that Mandoble and myself, both fairly well-known LW flyers, jumped in on your side.  By default, that makes whatever your position was on any subject the 'wrong' (think 'uncool') one.  However, in spite of the fact that we jumped on your bandwagon (and I wasn't actually supporting YOUR case, I was disagreeing with THEIR case... two different things in my mind, but one and the same to the 'cool kids'), you refused to jump off.  This opened the way for personal attacks on your character, etc.  

Merely by posting my opinion, I became an egotistical elitist who would like nothing more than to perk everything until the only planes flying were made by Ol' Adolf.  This would apparently satisfy the closet Nazi that anyone that flies LW planes has inside (even if they haven't realized it yet).  Is that actually my opinion?  Well, no... but does it matter?  Well, ... no.  

I think part of human nature is to put down other people to make oneself feel better/ more important/ what have you.  The Internet is the easiest place to do it.  There are no consequences or repercussions for your actions, as long as you don't piss off HTC.  It is a lot like high school/ junior high that way (substitute teachers/principals for HTC).  The best way to handle it is to just imagine you saved some poor little wife from a beating because her husband relieved his stress on the BBS.  Another good way to think about it is to realize that there are people who can fight (in AH) a lot better than they can talk (on the BBS).  And of course, there are those who talk a much better game than they can actually play.  But like I said before, I wouldn't let them get to you too much.

[Karnak]

Urchin,

I, for one, didn't see it that way.  I don't care what they want to fly, they could be Hurri, Tiffie or Mossie fans for all I care, I'd still argue against their position.

Your statements did nothing to alter my opinion of Tumor or MANDOBLE.  Those have been fixed, not irreperably mind you, for some time.  I hold a vastly higher opinion of you than I do of them.

[Urchin]

Originally posted by Fester
No offense Urchin, but I'm just sick of the amazinhunk mentality around here. I've made an attempt to make an adult conversation and pretty much all I get is creeps who find it real easy to insult other's on an internet message board. Funny how these people come out of the woodwork when it's not face to face.


First you take issue (whine) about the use of certain airplains and then you take issue (whine) when we dont agree with you... Im beginning to see a pattern here.  (this is not just you Tumor, not trying to single you out,m but you snapped first)


Well... even though this isn't really my fight, I'll fight it anyway.  The original question (by Mathman) was "Do you really worry about what other people fly?  And if so, why?'. " (paraphrased, of course).  He posted his opinion... and then several people proceeded to 'take issue' (or I guess WHINE) about his opinion.  Oh.. wait... it is only 'whining' if you aren't one of the 'cool kids'.. I forgot.  Otherwise it is 'calculated analysis' or some other roadkill.


Ive yet to see your's and Mandobels or Urchins arguments refuted with anything other than hard data and a perspective that attempts to take in the big picture.  Any perceived rudness can most likely be summed up through people's impatience with having to explain the obvious over and over again.


Tumor didn't HAVE an argument...  he made a statement.  He wasn't opening up a debate on his opinion- he was answering a question asked by Mathman.  I didn't have an argument either.  The only person who was arguing ANYTHING was Mandoble- yet you assume (collectively) since that we DON'T agree with whatever stupid roadkill YOU (collectively) are posting... we MUST agree with whatever Mandoble says.  And in fact... even Mandoble's argument was a natural extension of what someone else posted- which was "Well, definately nothing should be perked, except the Me262".  Especially not the Spits, because they don't perform well enough to "force anyone out of any plane".  Well, if the Spits and N1K2s don't discourage people from flying C202s, or 109E's and F's.. then why would an unperked 262 'force' anyone out of the Spitfire?  From their... your (collective) argument changed from performance to 'entry service date'.  It isn't just Mandoble that is having trouble maintaining his argument.


Your perspective on this (while most certaintly right to you) is selfish and narrow sighted and not wholly based in fact.


And yours is different how?  You are 'right' and he is 'wrong' based on exactly WHAT criteria?  Oh... nevermind.  More 'cool kids' agree with you, so you are right by default.


Fly whatever plane you want.  You simply need to understand that not everone subscribes to your personal definition of fun and play balance (this is part of growing up) and there are a lot of newer folks with a similar ego to yours (we are all very much alike) who would like to be somewhat competitive.  You were once a dweeb yourself, you weren't born an elitist snob, that takes a long time to develop, allow others the same opportunity you had.  Years from now we will all be shooting eachother down in P-47's and FW190A-8's  what will we squeak about then?


Lol.. this is especially rich.  I suggest you take your own advice.  I guess I'll have to do this one line by line.  


"You simply need to understand that not everone subscribes to your personal definition of fun and play balance (this is part of growing up)"


Again.. this is just a different variation of " I'm right and you are wrong"... but I guess YOUR personal definition of 'fun and play balance' is the RIGHT one?  Again... how do you know yours is right and his is 'wrong'?


"and there are a lot of newer folks with a similar ego to yours (we are all very much alike) who would like to be somewhat competitive. "


This, to me, is the most interesting part of your argument.  Because YOU (individually this time) are telling ME two things that appear to be opposites.  1.  There are a lot of newbies that want to be competitive, so they are in (I presume) La7s, N1K2s, and Spits (and you say WE are elitist.... guess we aren't alone, huh?), because those planes perform well compared to others.  2.  There are some planes that are just to overwhelming in relation to the other planes, so they have to be kept rare.  

I guess I'm not smart enough, because this seems contradictory.  This also ties in with you telling egotistical old me to 'stay out of the hard planes if I wasn't good enough to fly them'.  This logic just doesn't go in a nice straight line for me.  People who take off in C202s or 109E4s deserve to die because they take off knowing that their plane can't perform as well as the most common planes in the game (that saying, to me, that it is perfectly alright to have some planes out-perform other planes in every area, as long as they aren't German planes at least... those evil Nazi bastards...)- BUT... the Me262 must be perked because its performance is so overwhelming to the most common planes in the game.

Now... I don't know about you.  But I'll try to make my logic nice and simple to follow.  Here goes.  Lets assume I'm in a 109E.  I see a Spit IX.  The Spit IX is better at everything than my 109E (it is faster, rolls better, climbs better ,accelerates better,turns better, dives better, has better firepower).  What would the NORMAL outcome of the fight be?  The Spit IX winning (I hope everyone can see this.. I get 'tired of repeating the obvious over and over again')

Now, lets assume I am in a Spit IX and I see an Me262.  The Me262 is WAAAAAY faster, it climbs better, dives better, has better firepower, but it turns much worse.  In fact, it turns so poorly that you would practically have to be AFK for a Me262 to kill you.  Who will win this fight?  Probably nobody.  The Spit can't catch the 262 to kill it, and the 262 can't draw a bead on the Spit.

So... between my two scenarios, which plane is in the better position against a superior enemy?  Obviously, the Spit IX.  

So, I guess it isn't about performance advantages after all.  Well, maybe it is about when the aircraft entered service!  The 109E4 came in around mid-late 1940... and the Spit IX came in around mid-late 1942.  Well, there you have it!  The two year difference in introduction is why the 109E should suck and the Spit IX should be great.  Anyone can see THAT!  But.. what about the Me262 you ask?  Well, that was introduced in mid-late 1944.  Oh.. there is a two year difference between those two planes as well.  Good point, I hadn't noticed that.  

What I'm trying to say here is that when you (collectively) start saying "well, the Me262 is perked because it would make it real hard for people to fly what they want to fly".. you have to admit that there are already planes that make it hard for people to fly what they want to fly.  I suppose I could get personal and start saying dumb toejam about the planes you like being obsolete and you being an idiot to want to fly them... but I won't.  I'll leave that to you guys, you are the experts at it, not me.  And you can't toss out "But, but, but... we'll admit the Spit IX makes it real hard for people to fly SOME planes... but they are 1940 planes and our spit is only from 1942!!!".  Big diddlying deal.  My Me262 is "only" from 1944, I want to fly that all the time.  But... I guess then YOU'D be in the same boat I'm in now... and we wouldn't want that to happen, now would we?  

[aztec]

Response to the original question, because crybabies must cry...thats what crybabies do.