Shane, I've never had a problem with you in AH - either in the MA or on the BBS, so I am going to try and remain polite and 'educational'.
First off, I assume your comment about 'heroes' is implying that I am defending the reputation of the Waffen-SS with regards to 'war crimes', 'battlefield attrocities', etc. This is not the case.
Arlo's comment was plain stupid. The major units of the Waffen-SS were 'elite' combat units among other things. Selection was very rigorous, as was training. These facts alone show Arlo to either be deliberately lying or clueless with regards to the topic at hand. Waffen-SS units had very high 'espirit de corps'/'fighting morale'/etc. Such units are not composed of persons who 'would gladly be posted to the rear to man concentration camps if given the chance'. It is a known fact that Waffen-SS units maintained their cohesion and fighting spirit in situations where Allied units fell apart and surrendered or were destroyed. Hardly the actions of men who 'would jump at the chance to be placed in the rear guarding a concentration camp'.
Re: Malmedy;
Did you know that Peiper and all of his junior officers, senior NCOs, etc. were cleared of all charges relating to 'the Malmedy Massacre'?
I'd suggest you read the appendices of the book 'Hitler's Last Gamble' regarding this topic. There is an entire section dealing with 'the Malmedy Massacre', KG Peiper, etc.
To sum up - Peiper and his men were cleared, largely based on the testimony of U.S. Army Officers that stated:
1. Peiper could not have been present, as the U.S. Army Officers testifying were engaged with Peiper and his KG some 20 km further down the road at the time of the massacre.
2. The testifying U.S. Army Officers were later captured by Peiper. After Peiper was cut off, and under heavy artillery attack, he ordered all U.S. POWs into the best protected basements available, alongside the German wounded, and without guards. The U.S. Army Officers were asked to give their word of honor that the German wounded and medical personnel not be attacked, interfered with, etc. Hardly the act of a 'ruthless murderer'.
As for what happened at Malmedy, because U.S. Army personnel were shot, after surrendering - read the book (excellent book on the 2d Ardennes Offensive) and the appendices.
Re: Waffen-SS battlefield attrocities;
I'd say 90% or more were commited vs. partisans, resistance fighters, etc. This doesn't make it okay, but truth be told the Waffen-SS, like most other combat units, treated partisans and freedom fighters much different than surrendering uniformed soldiers. Remember that partisans and such had a habit of torturing and mutilating the soldiers they captured.
As for Waffen-SS battlefield attrocities vs. surrendering Russian soldiers - largely a myth. I'm sure it happened a few times, but every Nation's soldiers killed surrendering soldiers more than once. If the Waffen-SS were known as murderers as opposed to damn tough opponents, I highly doubt that the Ukraine would have approved a memorial, located in the Ukraine, to 200 members of the 5. SS Pz. Division who died fighting as the rearguard during the battles of the Cherkassy pocket. There's still lots of living Russian WW2 veterans in the Ukraine - they had no problem with the memorial. This memorial was approved about 4 years ago if memory serves.
The Canadians and the Waffen-SS both commited some execution of POWs in a battle over an airfield in Normandy, but even the Canadian veterans interviewed about this freely admitted that this was because the fighting was so intense and the objective was so crucial that there was simply no time to take prisoners.
After 1941, the vast majority of Waffen SS personnel never saw Germany itself until after the war. Refits were conducted in the 'Low Countries'. 1., 2., 5., 9., and 10. SS Pz. saw Germany via train - on the way to other fronts mainly. The one exception was Pz. crews picking up new AFVs in Germany, or being trained for new AFVs.
In 1941, some wounded Waffen-SS were assigned to concentration camps while they recovered from wounds. This practice was stopped by the end of 1941 because it had a severe effect on the morale of said soldiers.
Good soldiers do not make good executioners of innocent people. The two are not compatible. There are certain traits required of good soldiers - no matter how evil their leader - that cannot abide the execution of innocents.
I think one of the big problems is that too many people cannot get their brain around the fact that at the squad level, good soldiers, in 'elite' units, are basically the same regardless of Nationality. They are tough, they are challenge oriented, etc. They wouldn't volunteer for such a unit if they weren't.
How do I know so much about the Waffen-SS?
I was born in Germany and adopted by a member of the U.S. Army. Until the age of 4 or so, my 'baby sitters' were my biological German grandparents. One of my biological Grandfathers was a German Army Pz. crewman. Wounded in 1940 in France and sent home. During the massive rebuilding of Waffen-SS Pz. units in 1942 and 1943 he was 'assigned' to a Waffen-SS Pz. unit. He didn't go kicking and screaming. By 1943 'Waffen-SS' = 'elite unit with better AFVs and better weapons' to most members of the German armed forces.
The statement about all of the Waffen-SS being 'political' shows a lack of education on the subject as well.
The Waffen-SS was lacking in good officers. Many German Army officers joined the Waffen-SS for the sole reason that they lacked the 'heritage' (i.e., they weren't a 'von Somethingorother') to have a good chance of making a high rank in the German Army in the late early '30s and late '40s. The Waffen-SS was a chance to be judged on leading ability alone, as opposed to leading ability and 'noble heritage'. This was the sole reason the head of the Waffen-SS, Paul Hausser, left the German Army.
In short - to everyone reading this thread - read some books on the subject. Books dedicated to the subject. There are no small # of unbiased books available, that detail every attrocity as well as every battle. In 1945 leaders in the U.S. and British armies openly commented on the high degree of skill and bravery shown by the Waffen-SS, the German Army, etc. in the brutal winter fighting and the battles of maneuver vs. a Russian opponent with a vast numerical superiority. These were professional oppinions of professional opponents. Contrary to some very uneducated opinions in this thread, battlefield attrocities by the Waffen-SS were not the norm. Large #s of Allied soldiers lived to tell about surrendering to the Waffen-SS.
Large #s of Waffen-SS volunteers came from Scandanavia, following the German propoganda 'battle cry' of the 1940s - 'Protect Civilized Europe from the Communist Asiatic Hordes'. Those Scandanavians didn't volunteer for a chance to execute women and children. I find it funny that people who attempt to understand the motivations of the enemy never bother to study what the political climate of the enemy's homeland was.
For a good look at the Eastern front from the 'man on the ground' level, I'd suggest 'The Forgotten Soldier'.
As far as the SS and the Waffen-SS goes, 'Hitler's Instrument of Terror' is a fairly thorough and unbiased book. It outlines the organization of the SS in great detail. I highly recommend it. It also goes into great detail about the personnel changes in the various departments of the SS as the war progressed. For example, the SD was largely composed of former Abwehr personnel after 1943, as most experienced German intelligence officers had strong suspicions that Canaris was betraying Germany by 1943. So they 'laterally transferred' to the SD.
People need to come to terms with the fact that the main difference between Dick Bong and Erich Hartmann, and Rommel and Patton, is basically where they were born.
If Chuck Yeager were born in Germany he would have died flying a Bf 109 over NWE in 1944 most likely.
You won't find me in an AH 'SS Pz. Unit' just like you won't find me in an AH 'JG'. Just personal preference for me. I'm in the military and AH is a game. Enough said. But I have no problem with (most)people who choose to be in 'historical units'. If some kid is in a 'Guards Armored Regiment' driving in T-34/85s it's not my mission in life to tell him that the Soviet military was the armed forces of Stalin, who killed alot of innocent Russians. Stupid argument, right? Your average Russian T-34 gunner was fighting to save Russia from the Nazis.
Well, a kid who lives in Germany would say your average Waffen-SS PzGr was fighting to save Germany from the Russians. Both points have some merit. Sure, Germany did attack Russia. Germany was one of the 'bad guys' of WW2. Most of the Germans and Japanese who died fighting the Allies in WW2 had no say in if the war started, or who was attacked. It's hard to comprehend for some (and this doesn't make them inferior in any way whatsoever in my book), but good people have fought bravely for stupid and/or evil causes for almost the entire history of the human race. That the cause is stupid and/or evil does not make the 'schmuck on the ground' evil or invalidate his bravery. It is tragic though - that most of the people who get killed in wartime are often the least deserving of their fate.
If you reply to me, please keep it civil. Don't call me a 'nazi' (Another stupid accusation often seen - it's the equivalent of calling someone in the U.S. in the '40s and '50s a 'Union Worker', and considering them to be evil because Jimmy Hoffa won a Presidential Election and turned out to be a genocidal maniac). I've seen mass graves in real life. I've read interrogation transcripts that are roughly 10 years old at most. I know the difference between soldiers and executioners.
Mike/wulfie
