And people think _'s are bad?

[wulfie]

J_A_B,

For the entirety of WW2, the Waffen-SS Regiments (which later became Divisions) were under the command of the German Army. The German Army was under the supreme command of Adolf Hitler.

Waffen-SS Divisions deployed to areas/theatres on the orders of the Theatre commanders, which in every single case were German Army (Wehrmacht) Officers.

Saying that the Waffen-SS was under the direct command of Hitler and that the LW, the Wehrmacht, etc. were not is incorrect. This is partly the reason that you won't find me in a 'LW squadron' in any game. Like I said above - some brave and definitely non-evil individual, but the armed forces were fighting for an evil leader.

You are right about 'rooks/bishops/etc.', but AH has historical events, with historical units simulated in said events. And there are people who are drawn to AH as a 'WW2 combat simulation'.

Like I said before - I can understand why you are offended. But I see a distinct difference between a 'special execution group' composed partly of members of the SS (not the Waffen-SS) and a Waffen-SS division, under the command of the OKH, fighting as regular military unit on the Eastern or Western front.

There is a LW in Germany today, that's true. And everyone is aware of how seriously Germany takes it's Nazi past.

So when you are able to go to a military cemetary in Germany, and members of the Waffen-SS who were KIA have their Waffen-SS unit ID on their headstones even today - what does that tell you about the difference between the Waffen-SS Divisions, and the adminitrative offices of the SS that were responsible for the concentration camps.

I really think you guys are a little confused re: the differences between different parts of the SS. Have you read many dedicated books on the subject? (honest question: I know d*ck about IJA air units for example)

Mike/wulfie

[wulfie]

Here maybe this will clarify some things:

If you were a member of the Waffen-SS, you were a combat soldier and were part of a Waffen-SS unit, which was a Regiment until the invasion of Russia by which time most of the Regiments had become Divisions.

Some examples of the more 'famous' Divisions:

1. SS - Leibstandarte
2. SS - Das Reich
3. SS - Totenkopk
5. SS - Wiking

'Leibstandarte' was origionally a bodyguard company for Adolf Hitler in the late '30s. At this time, it was about 100 men strong. Most of these 100 were people who joined the SS political organization. They were placed in the 'Leibstandarte' because they were former military personnel with combat experience (from WW1) - the type of people you'd want for bodyguards. I'm not saying these guys weren't 'dyed in the wool SS fanatics' by the way.

By the time 'Leibstandarte' was a Regiment, i.e. after WW2 started, the vast majority of the Regiment were soldiers who would have been sent to a Wehrmacht unit but the Waffen-SS had 'first pick' on recruits because of the political power of the SS.

Understand this - men called up to serve in the armed forces of Germany after the invasion of Poland could easily wind up in Waffen-SS combat training for posting to a Waffen-SS combat unit.

You, J_A_B, if you were 20 years old, 6'2", 215 lbs. of solid muscle, and a crack shot - if you were called up by Germany in 1940 there's a decent chance you'd be told you'd been selected for Waffen-SS training and posting to a Waffen-SS unit.

Now, at the time, the 'Waffen-SS' and the 'Fallschirmjager' (paratroops) and and Panzer unit were the equivalent of today's 'U.S. Army Rangers' when you are talking about their image in the eyes of 20 year old men. Any 'newsreel from the front' spoke of one of these 'special units'.

In other words, some 20 year old guy in 1940 wasn't going to say 'no, I don't want to join the Waffen-SS' very often. That's the type of psychology we are talking about here.

These Waffen-SS combat units were assigned to various Wehmacht front/theatre commands for the entirety of WW2. At no time was a Waffen-SS Division 'ordered to Germany to man concentration camps'.

I think this is where the argument in this thread comes from - one group is being specific and the other isn't. Neither group is wrong in my opinion. In my mind, studying WW2 history a great deal, there is no word association between '5. SS Pz. Div. Wiking' and 'Dachau'.

But the Waffen-SS were a part of the SS, and it was a department of the SS that managed the obscene 'business' which they considered concentration camps to be. So I can fully understand why people would be offended.

I think what matters the most is the mind set of 'SSWaffen'. Sure, he could be some white supremacist living in a compound somewhere.

He could also be some 9 year old kid who bought a Tamiya Pz VG kit with decals for a Waffen-SS Division.

Has anyone actually talked to him online?

Mike/wulfie

[Shane]

Originally posted by wulfie
He could also be some 9 year old kid who bought a Tamiya Pz VG kit with decals for a Waffen-SS Division.

Has anyone actually talked to him online?

Mike/wulfie

yeah i did...

"just a game, just a name."

that's like saying, hitler "was just a german, just a duly elected leader."

[J_A_B]

Wulfie--I am well aware of the distinction between the various SS units.  I am also aware of the difference between the average soldier of the German army and the guys in the Waffen SS, which you apparently are not.

You made a comparison between Army Rangers and the Waffen SS.  Okay.  Would you say that the average Ranger is more likely to be a proud American, a patriot, a believer in the American government and a willing soldier of the USA than some typical unwilling draftee?   Obviously the answer is a big YES.  Being a Ranger is a mark of pride, for those who love their country and go above and beyond the call of duty; they're our best soldiers and literally a represenation of the USA.

Same with the Waffen SS.  Now remember what government they had and what these guys were so zealously fighting for and maybe you'll start to see my point.  These guys weren't just innocent soldiers by any means.  At least not until the manpower situation over there dictated that they filled the ranks with whatever bodies they could find, but that doesn't change the underlying symbolicism of that unit.

"I think what matters the most is the mind set of 'SSWaffen'. "

So if he's flying his little virtual Nazi flag just because "well it looks cool", that makes it all right?

Nope.  

I haven't talked to him.  I'm not going to talk to him.  His motives are a total non-issue.

J_A_B

[wulfie]

Well,

Since someone has talked to him - and he apparently is of the mind that 'just a name, no big deal', I can see why some would be irritated.

J_A_B,

I never said anything would make it alright.

I don't want to argue with you. I am perfectly aware of the fact that some people are going to take things differently than others. All I was trying to do was to explain/show that just because some people aren't offended to the same degree by something that you are, it doesn't mean that they don't agree on other key points.

I am more aware of 'the average soldier of the German army' than you think - probably more aware than you are. I've interviewed several of them, and spoken to many more on a casual basis - having spent alot of time in Germany. Regular German army units commited attrocities as well. The commiting of attrocities did not require some special insignia on a uniform. Your attitude strikes me as a little naive - 'all SS evil, all non SS honorable'. It's not that simple in real life.

Also, I didn't compare the Waffen-SS and the U.S. Army Rangers. I compared the psychology behind the recruitment. There is a difference. My point was this (in this case) - you implied that every member of the Waffen-SS was a 'political creature', who somehow wound up in the Waffen-SS because of a total belief in Aryan superiority or some like nonsense. I know you are wrong.

You're also wrong (and again, a little naive I think) about U.S. Army Ranger 'recruitment/pre-ranger school' psychology. I know lots of Rangers. I've trained with some of them at various times. Alot of guys volunteer for Ranger school because they need to prove something to themselves, or 'Rangers get to do cool stuff like jump and it's easier to get into some of the cooler schools', etc. The norm is not someone who thinks to himself, at the age of 19, "I love my Nation so much that I will volunteer for Ranger school". In WW2 and in modern times guys in crack units fight on in difficult situations because of the tightness of the unit (i.e. they couldn't think of bailing on their buddies), not based on some political fanaticism. Japan in WW2 may have gotten close to that with Bushido, but that's another topic entirely.

I can't remember who said it, but the quote basically goes "When things get really bad you don't fight for freedom, or your country, or what's right or wrong - you fight for the guys to the left and the right of you".

Sometimes it's a young infantry guy who sees a really tight group of guys that exude confidence, and being young and impressed by that confidence he decides to try and be a part of that group.

I have talked to veterans of the Waffen-SS who said they tried to make the ranks of the Waffen-SS 'because my best friend from school made it'. That's not every case, but what you imply is an example of the minority of the cases. The eqiuvalent of what you are saying in modern times would be the Republican Party endorsing the U.S. Rangers, and because there was a Republican President in power everyone who had dreams of being a Republican senator decided to volunteer for Ranger school.

Even in WW2, political creatures didn't fare well in front line combat units. They don't today as well.

As for 'him flying his little virtual Nazi flag making it all right', I never implied that. What I was trying to tell you that your treatment of him should be based on what he's thinking.

For example - if he is a 9 year old, with zero knolwedge of WW2 due to the state of public education in the U.S.A. today, if he did get a chance to speak with you his thoughts following speaking to you would probably be 'man, that guy's an as*hole' (not trying to flame you there - just a figure of speech). You could actually accomplish something with him by speaking with him, giving him a couple of books to read, etc.

All hypothetical though, according to what Shane has discovered about his attitude on the topic.

If you really care about the legacy of the holocaust, ethnic cleansing, etc. (it appears you do, which is a good thing) you need to rethink how you deal with people.

The problem with your approach is this -  say the guy with the offensive handle was a 9 year old with no clue of the actual history.

If he speaks to someone who says 'You cannot have that handle the Waffen SS were evil they were all fanatics of Hitler and commited attrocities left and right' and he then speaks to someone who is an apologist, revisionist, etc. you have set the revisionists up for an easy victory. Compared to the tone of your reply, a smart revisionist is going to be composed, articulate, and give the kid a reading list of intelligent sounding but biased reading material.

Better to tailor the explanation and any chastising to the person in question. A 9 year old with no formal education needs to be educated. A fat bigot wearing a swastika teeshirt needs to be told off (or worse).

I'll end it this way - I understand why you are offended, and I am offended by the same things you are in this case. But in my case, I consider the 'poster boys of facist Germany's evil acts' to be certain leaders who knew the big picture and actually believed in the goal/end result and worked at making that end result a reality.

No hard feelings here...

Mike/wulfie

[Leslie]

J_A_B man, you sound like you're extremely upset about this guy's choice of game ID, which he must have known, would cause some controversy...provided he is an old AH vet and did it on purpose.

This fellow is a newbie, I'm pretty sure.  He played Rook the other night and seemed like a nice guy.  Even has a sense of humor, from what I saw on the text buffer.

Now, I am willing to give this player the benefit of the doubt as to his choice of ID...probably more along the line Sandman was explaining.  All I can say is, if this player is emulating German infantry soldiers, he must be a good player.  

If he starts up with Nazi propaganda on channel 1, then that would be the time to make a post like this.  



Les

[Duedel]

I'll say it again here:

It is totally irrelevant if u are OK with the name "WaffenSS".
Many europeans are not and if HTC wants to attract more euros and the first thing they see is a moronic icon name like "WaffenSS" the impression of this game is questionable not to say i would ask me if there are a bunch of Nazis flying in this game.

To explain this a little bit more:

For the germans (and other too) SS, Gestapo and SA stand for the most obnoxious kind of nazism. They are the most evil spawn of the morbid thoughts of Adolf Hitler.

And to those making jokes about people getting offended by Mr. WaffenSS: come to euroland and russia and talk to older people. They will explain u why they begin to cry even when they only see the insignia of the SS.

[Booky]

I have learned a lot about the SS in this thread. I didn't even know of them before now

Anyway, if it is as bad as it seems I think the name should be gone just because we can type deal.

Kinda like the name potforkids that I seen about a month ago. Seen it a few times then never again. I think HT got wind of that stupid moronic name.

But really, this thread has got me interested in learning more about the European parts of WWII. All I ever was interested in before was the Pacific Theater.


Booky

[Hussein]

Let's remove EVERYTHING german in the game to please J_A_B - afterall its all nazi warcraft and you surely do hate everything nazi ENOUGH TO CENSOR it.

By all means, let's just close our eyes from the history and nothing bad ever happens or happened. Happy new world.

Censorship is the key to a better society and a brighter future for your kids.

[Shane]

Originally posted by Hussein
Censorship is the key to a better society and a brighter future for your kids.

i thought gassing the kurds was?  

[Sixpence]

And to those making jokes about people getting offended by Mr. WaffenSS: come to euroland and russia and talk to older people. They will explain u why they begin to cry even when they only see the insignia of the SS.

And maybe some japanese begin to cry when they see a picture of or hear the name B29 or atomic bomb.

The japanese were very ruthless also, one commander used to eat the livers of prisoners(no lie). And does the bataan death march ring a bell? Do we ban any japanese squad names?

Do we ban WWII sims because some find it disgusting that you would want to recreate WWII?

Every country during the war commited atrocities. If certain events during WWII really offend you, then you really shouldn't be playing a WWII sim.

I mean, I'm half italian and there is a person named Dago, but I'm not going to demand his name be changed.

However, there was a "Mrdiddlyo" online the other night.My complaint is when I tried to type to him, I got muted...DOH!!

Now HTC can ban the name "SSwaffen" if they wish, but, where he seemed like a decent person, I'm sure if they ask him in a nice way, he would probably do it anyway.

Which probably should have been done instead of a demanding post in the first place.

[Gunthr]

I personally would prefer to have all historical names and markings allowed in this game, including WaffenSS.

However, if a name or a marking deeply offended or hurt my friend, I would remove or change it out of respect for their feelings. It is that simple.

[LLv34_Camouflage]

Thank you for the educating posts, Wulfie!

I seem to notice the "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality in this thread.  I hope people would take a minute and study the topic before making wrong assumptions.  With the internet, there is a wealth of information out there. It is not hard to find basic info on almost any topic in a matter of seconds.  If you are really interested or just don't trust the information you find, head to your nearest library and read some books. Study history: without prejudism, without bigotry, with an open mind. If you find something offensive, study the topic and take a look in the mirror: "maybe I am just prejudiced?"

This is not specifically directed at the Waffen SS discussion. Unfortunately, threads like this usually seem to involve Germans in one way or the other.  Victims of "western history writing"?

Best regards,

Camo

[muckmaw]

Originally posted by LLv34_Camouflage
Unfortunately, threads like this usually seem to involve Germans in one way or the other.  Victims of "western history writing"?

Best regards,

Camo

Oh dear lord, now I've heard it all.

I assume by this, Camo, that you mean if Germany won WWII, we would be reading about how the U.S. Executed millions of Jews, and other Non-desirables?

[MWHUN]

I agree that “waffenSS” should not be allowed in the game. This guy just doesn’t understand the implications of that name…  

My only concern-does HTC have a clearly defined rule for “inappropriate/offensive” names?  Hopefully AH will have an influx of new players-but that means issues of “Appropriate Handles” will come up again in the future.

Following is just meant as a joking example of what could happen without a clear policy:

I personally find the “handle” of HUNHuntr to be offensive to me- and someone coming out of rehab may have issues with a 420FATTY.

There are numerous handles that can be interpreted many ways and without a clear policy it could become messy.

Just saying…