Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Shuffler on June 17, 2011, 12:15:41 PM
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Read this......
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110616/RETAIL01/306169874/1492 (http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110616/RETAIL01/306169874/1492)
Would be a shame for a plant to close though.
I found it funny that the number one car traded in to get a Camaro is a Mustang. hehe
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As a Ford guy I've always liked the Mustangs. OK I take that back.. I never was a big fan of the Fox body (80's) but oh well. When they redesigned it in '94 I thought it looked cool but I quickly leaned that everything was just... cheap. The new '05 design was a HUGE leap in the right direction. A lot of the quality returned, it looked neat, and it went from feeling like a "cheap" ride to feeling like a "luxurious, quality" ride. Everything felt heavier and more solid, and the entire car was more stable as a result.
The problem is that they haven't really made any big changes since then. It's been seven years now and while GM and Chrysler have released their competition by 'bringing back' lost models (Camaro and Challenger), Ford really has nothing to offer someone looking for something new and different as far as sports cars go. In order to stand out, Ford has to continue to change and evolve the Mustang *BUT* to be fair that costs money. Since Ford declined financial assistance I'd imagine that their R&D funds were quite a bit lower... while GM and Chrysler were sinking millions into their sports cars to try to make a quick buck, Ford was busy restructuring their ways of doing business for long term success.
At least that's my theory.
Personally I'm not worried. Even if they end up eliminating the Mustang model altogether like Chevy did the Camaro - in a few years they'll come out with a whole new car that will just BLOW AWAY the competition. Maybe by then I'll be in a financial position to actually OWN ONE! haha
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As a Ford guy I've always liked the Mustangs. OK I take that back.. I never was a big fan of the Fox body (80's) but oh well. When they redesigned it in '94 I thought it looked cool but I quickly leaned that everything was just... cheap. The new '05 design was a HUGE leap in the right direction. A lot of the quality returned, it looked neat, and it went from feeling like a "cheap" ride to feeling like a "luxurious, quality" ride. Everything felt heavier and more solid, and the entire car was more stable as a result.
The problem is that they haven't really made any big changes since then. It's been seven years now and while GM and Chrysler have released their competition by 'bringing back' lost models (Camaro and Challenger), Ford really has nothing to offer someone looking for something new and different as far as sports cars go. In order to stand out, Ford has to continue to change and evolve the Mustang *BUT* to be fair that costs money. Since Ford declined financial assistance I'd imagine that their R&D funds were quite a bit lower... while GM and Chrysler were sinking millions into their sports cars to try to make a quick buck, Ford was busy restructuring their ways of doing business for long term success.
At least that's my theory.
Personally I'm not worried. Even if they end up eliminating the Mustang model altogether like Chevy did the Camaro - in a few years they'll come out with a whole new car that will just BLOW AWAY the competition. Maybe by then I'll be in a financial position to actually OWN ONE! haha
Ahh but Ford did accept money.
This year mustang upped the ante with more horsepower as the V6 camaro was almost an equal of the mustang GT with a V8. that was a plus but they then changed the rear end of the car to... well I have no idea what they were thinking. Camaro keeps them coming with the new 40 year annivesary edition and early next year the ZL1. Following later will be the Z28.
I'd hate to see the mustang go the way the camaro did for awhile. I'm truely hoping they find some success to keep them coming too.
My main reason for posting was to nag Cap a bit. Always fun needling eachother between car makes. :)
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CAP must be having a good/bad Friday, even I beat him to O'club forum today.
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CAP must be having a good/bad Friday, even I beat him to O'club forum today.
Hopefully he's busy at his shop and makin' money. :)
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Ahh but Ford did accept money.
Its not the same thing as a bailout. Its bad to misrepresent things.
http://jalopnik.com/5704575/ford-bmw-toyota-took-secret-government-money
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Its not the same thing as a bailout. Its bad to misrepresent things.
http://jalopnik.com/5704575/ford-bmw-toyota-took-secret-government-money
You can justify it as you want, put any name on it you want, ... in the end it is the same thing as the other companies did. :)
Now back to the mustang on the endangered list.
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let it die ;) horrible representation of American Muscle.
chargers always ;)
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let it die ;) horrible representation of American Muscle.
chargers always ;)
Ill see your charger and raise you a Corvette ZR1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlvQLQTtOmk
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Fix Or Repair Daily
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well if i'm going to spend that kind of money, i'll go with the old school years 67-69 Camaro, 67-69 Mustang, 67-69 Chargers, you can keep the plastic cars.
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If it is in print, it must be true.
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As a Ford guy I've always liked the Mustangs. OK I take that back.. I never was a big fan of the Fox body (80's) but oh well. When they redesigned it in '94 I thought it looked cool but I quickly leaned that everything was just... cheap. The new '05 design was a HUGE leap in the right direction. A lot of the quality returned, it looked neat, and it went from feeling like a "cheap" ride to feeling like a "luxurious, quality" ride. Everything felt heavier and more solid, and the entire car was more stable as a result.
The problem is that they haven't really made any big changes since then. It's been seven years now and while GM and Chrysler have released their competition by 'bringing back' lost models (Camaro and Challenger), Ford really has nothing to offer someone looking for something new and different as far as sports cars go. In order to stand out, Ford has to continue to change and evolve the Mustang *BUT* to be fair that costs money. Since Ford declined financial assistance I'd imagine that their R&D funds were quite a bit lower... while GM and Chrysler were sinking millions into their sports cars to try to make a quick buck, Ford was busy restructuring their ways of doing business for long term success.
At least that's my theory.
Personally I'm not worried. Even if they end up eliminating the Mustang model altogether like Chevy did the Camaro - in a few years they'll come out with a whole new car that will just BLOW AWAY the competition. Maybe by then I'll be in a financial position to actually OWN ONE! haha
Have you not taken business classes? The more money you make now the more you can invest and multiply with your assets. You must have long and SHORT term goals and success...GM and Chrysler are doing both at the same time, making more money now to invest in a better future.
As far as the Mustang goes, the Mustang has always and always will be a car made to be improved upon. A stock mustang is complete garbage, talks the talk but can not even crawl. The mustang line has always been about upgrading and improving out of the consumers pocket not the company's. If you want a decent mustang you have to buy the upgrades.
A Charger, Corvette, or even the Camaro come with a great package as STOCK. Even the bottom of the line models of these can use the mustang as used toilet paper.
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well if i'm going to spend that kind of money, i'll go with the old school years 67-69 Camaro, 67-69 Mustang, 67-69 Chargers, you can keep the plastic cars.
1965 Shelby Cobra...nuff said.
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Have you not taken business classes? The more money you make now the more you can invest and multiply with your assets. You must have long and SHORT term goals and success...GM and Chrysler are doing both at the same time, making more money now to invest in a better future.
As far as the Mustang goes, the Mustang has always and always will be a car made to be improved upon. A stock mustang is complete garbage, talks the talk but can not even crawl. The mustang line has always been about upgrading and improving out of the consumers pocket not the company's. If you want a decent mustang you have to buy the upgrades.
A Charger, Corvette, or even the Camaro come with a great package as STOCK. Even the bottom of the line models of these can use the mustang as used toilet paper.
There is so much caca del toro in this quote, that I do not even know where to begin.
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:cry :cry :cry
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There is so much caca del toro in this quote, that I do not even know where to begin.
I got time...start going..
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I got time...start going..
From a Droidx at work? Sorry.
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Ill see your charger and raise you a Corvette ZR1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlvQLQTtOmk
you cant compare the 2, ones a sports car. the other is a muscle car.
thats like comparing a mustang to a Ferrari, or a camaro to a Lamborghini
but i'll see your raise and give you a z06 getting its :ahand handed to it by a 71' charger.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IDVy31Rcn4
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you cant compare the 2, ones a sports car. the other is a muscle car.
thats like comparing a mustang to a Ferrari, or a camaro to a Lamborghini
but i'll see your raise and give you a z06 getting its :ahand handed to it by a 71' charger.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IDVy31Rcn4
No a Corvette is considered a Muscle car by all accounts...take the Z06 for example:
Massive 7.0L V8 Engine with 505HP and 470 ft-lb of torque. Low RPM, out putting 505hp at 6300rpm. 470 torque at 4300rpm.
Now for the GT500:
Mid Sized 5.4L V8 Engine with 550HP and 510 ft-lb of torque. Low RPM, out putting 550hp at 6200rpm and 510 torque at 4250rpm.
Just by the engine block alone the z06 is more of a muscle car than the GT500.
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you cant compare the 2, ones a sports car. the other is a muscle car.
thats like comparing a mustang to a Ferrari, or a camaro to a Lamborghini
but i'll see your raise and give you a z06 getting its :ahand handed to it by a 71' charger.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IDVy31Rcn4
Yawn... I'm Prudy sure this Street legal 4700lb F150 Ford truck would teach them both a lesson lol unless either of those can run a 9.95 @ 138 mph Quarter Mile and 192 Mph clocked in at the Mile Run.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll1Km_vLJrY&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll1Km_vLJrY&feature=related)
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GM has been moving performance guys from the corvette line to the camaro line. That is why the ZL1 will be a track car right off the showroom floor.
Many corvette enthusiast are moving to the camaro too.
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I don't blame sales for the mustang dropping, I personally think the mustangs from '94 forward are hideous, especially after '05. I want my pointy edges back, dammit! :banana:
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As far as the Mustang goes, the Mustang has always and always will be a car made to be improved upon. A stock mustang is complete garbage, talks the talk but can not even crawl. The mustang line has always been about upgrading and improving out of the consumers pocket not the company's. If you want a decent mustang you have to buy the upgrades.
A Charger, Corvette, or even the Camaro come with a great package as STOCK. Even the bottom of the line models of these can use the mustang as used toilet paper.
Umm, the Coyote 5.0 has over 400hp. :headscratch:
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No a Corvette is considered a Muscle car by all accounts...take the Z06 for example:
Massive 7.0L V8 Engine with 505HP and 470 ft-lb of torque. Low RPM, out putting 505hp at 6300rpm. 470 torque at 4300rpm.
Now for the GT500:
Mid Sized 5.4L V8 Engine with 550HP and 510 ft-lb of torque. Low RPM, out putting 550hp at 6200rpm and 510 torque at 4250rpm.
Just by the engine block alone the z06 is more of a muscle car than the GT500.
First you compare a POS 4 door Charger (regardless of engine) to a Mustang/Camaro and then compare a NON-MUSCLE CAR Corvette Z06 to a Mustang? You proved my point with your own words. I thank you for it.
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Have you not taken business classes? The more money you make now the more you can invest and multiply with your assets. You must have long and SHORT term goals and success...GM and Chrysler are doing both at the same time, making more money now to invest in a better future.
As far as the Mustang goes, the Mustang has always and always will be a car made to be improved upon. A stock mustang is complete garbage, talks the talk but can not even crawl. The mustang line has always been about upgrading and improving out of the consumers pocket not the company's. If you want a decent mustang you have to buy the upgrades.
A Charger, Corvette, or even the Camaro come with a great package as STOCK. Even the bottom of the line models of these can use the mustang as used toilet paper.
Not a little biased are you? Not too well informed either. There have been a slew of comparisons between the Mustang, Camaro and Charger. The Mustang always cleaned the Camaro and Chargers clock.
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Nowhere did I read in the article anything about the Mustang being discontinued. I read that a plant may shut down, but unless a person is totally clueless, you would know that they can easily move a production line for a model to another plant. They said supply with the V6 is down to a 30 day supply, that sounds like they are selling about as fast as they can make them. Hardly sounds like a candidate for shutdown now does it?
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I don't blame sales for the mustang dropping, I personally think the mustangs from '94 forward are hideous, especially after '05. I want my pointy edges back, dammit! :banana:
They aren't "dropping", which is why if your reading comprehension was as good as your eye for styling, you'd realize Ford WILL NOT cancel the Mustang, IS NOT EVEN PLANNING to cancel the Mustang, etc. Who GAF if Mazda takes their cars out of there? The property and plant are already paid for. Gee, "maybe we could make the engines in house and save on expenses"?
The Camaro sales raised 4% in May!!!!! WOOHOO throw a party!!!!!!
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First you compare a POS 4 door Charger (regardless of engine) to a Mustang/Camaro and then compare a NON-MUSCLE CAR Corvette Z06 to a Mustang? You proved my point with your own words. I thank you for it.
You counter with a statement saying a Z06 is not a muscle car...by definition it is one. I provided proof and you have not. The comparison between a Z06 to a GT500 is pretty fair in terms of performance and price. The point in that post was proving that if you can consider a GT500 a muscle car then a Z06 is right there with it.
I don't know what I am talking about? Maybe these guys don't either:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O46E0gCF5os
The mustang line is all about the upgrades!
Corvettes and Camaros are about giving you a muscle car with all of those upgrades as stock parts. That's why Mustangs are not doing well.
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Maybe the reason they lost is because everyone already has a mustang who wants one. There are 13 mustang owners in my neighborhood. I see a Camaro probably every once in a few weeks. I see around 4-7 mustangs a day when I get out and go to the store.
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You counter with a statement saying a Z06 is not a muscle car...by definition it is one. I provided proof and you have not. The comparison between a Z06 to a GT500 is pretty fair in terms of performance and price. The point in that post was proving that if you can consider a GT500 a muscle car then a Z06 is right there with it.
I don't know what I am talking about? Maybe these guys don't either:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O46E0gCF5os
The mustang line is all about the upgrades!
Corvettes and Camaros are about giving you a muscle car with all of those upgrades as stock parts. That's why Mustangs are not doing well.
The Camaro/Challenger and Mustangs are PONY CARS. I never mentioned a thing about the GT500, but you did.
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The Camaro/Challenger and Mustangs are PONY CARS. I never mentioned a thing about the GT500, but you did.
You totally missed the point of the post, but that's ok you have until 12/21/2012
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You totally missed the point of the post, but that's ok you have until 12/21/2012
Your posts have been nothing but drivel.
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Your posts have been nothing but drivel.
So have your replies.
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As someone who can't find a 2012 Mustang to the specs I want and the dealers who can't keep the new V6's on the lot the only way the Mustang is "going away" is because they sold all of them.
Ford got this one right and the fact you can buy a V6 Mustang Convertible, with better handling than a 2010GT, with the power of a 2010GT (305 V6 vs 315 in the 2010 GT's V8) at a similar price to a 2008 GT Convertible. The daffy bastages just didn't make enough of the damn things and if I want one kitted out the way I want I'm waiting 6-8-10 weeks custom ordered.
The V6 Mustangs are hotcakes this year and they're not just underpowered little cars with automatics that yuppies rent when at a conference.
I actually have CAP1 to blame for pointing out the new V6's are more car than you get than the 2008 GT Vert's and spending more of my money. Add that in with 0% financing for 36 months and 0.9% to 48 months and a whopping 1.9% out to 60 months I can't bring myself to buy a 2008 when I can get more car for the money in a new one.
If you disagree and think they're not selling feel free to find me a Convertible in Kona Blue with Stone interior and a Manual transmission and I'll put my money where my mouth is and buy the thing.
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So have your replies.
Sorry. You have yet to PROVE anything and cannot even properly compare cars.
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Sorry. You have yet to PROVE anything and cannot even properly compare cars.
I have and you don't accept what I have done. Why don't you put your "proper" comparisons? Oh wait cause you can't.
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No a Corvette is considered a Muscle car by all accounts...take the Z06 for example:
Massive 7.0L V8 Engine with 505HP and 470 ft-lb of torque. Low RPM, out putting 505hp at 6300rpm. 470 torque at 4300rpm.
Now for the GT500:
Mid Sized 5.4L V8 Engine with 550HP and 510 ft-lb of torque. Low RPM, out putting 550hp at 6200rpm and 510 torque at 4250rpm.
Just by the engine block alone the z06 is more of a muscle car than the GT500.
So, the more powerful yet smaller engined Mustang is inferior? :huh
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I have and you don't accept what I have done. Why don't you put your "proper" comparisons? Oh wait cause you can't.
Do you even know what the Corvette's competition was in the 50's to 60's? Without Google, it is obvious that you do NOT know it. The Mustang came out, then the Camaro/Charger/Challenger's followed.
I believe the majority of posters in this thread realize how FOS you are and far from knowledgeable.
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There is so much caca del toro in this quote, that I do not even know where to begin.
I love it!!!! :rofl :lol
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The Mustang will never go away, it's Ford's best seller. Look around while your driving in rush hour traffic and count'em.
I wish Obama motors would bring back the Chevelle SS. 1970 Chevelle SS LS6, Rat Motor, 8 MPG. Best 8 miles you'll ever get.
Sadly, we get the Volt.
Pay off the Unions and stiff the investors and consumers, Is that taught in business classes these days?
:noid
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The Mustang will never go away, it's Ford's best seller. Look around while your driving in rush hour traffic and count'em.
I wish Obama motors would bring back the Chevelle SS. 1970 Chevelle SS LS6, Rat Motor, 8 MPG. Best 8 miles you'll ever get.
Sadly, we get the Volt.
Pay off the Unions and stiff the investors and consumers, Is that taught in business classes these days?
:noid
in a way, i wish plymouth would come back. but i know with the way gas prices are they wouldnt be able to survive. :(
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Suffler, Flipperk, I didn't really wish to get involved, but you are being such a tool about it. :frown:
Son ... the Mustang is not going away anytime soon. You even posting that article is a clear statement that you know very little about those cars ... or you are so galuable that I'm surprised you are not waiting to hear about your wife ... the Nigarian pricess ... that drained your bank account lately.
It is indeed a fact that the Camaro is outselling the Mustang months after months, but look at the numbers, it's not a crushing victory. The gap increased last couple of months not because people woke up thinking the Mustang was garbage, but because the dealers ran out of them. The shortage of the 3.7 that you mentioned, plus other factors such as the tsunami in Japan that destroyed the paint factory creating a shortage in some colors. Dealers cannot order enought of them, nor keep them in stock, which in any economics books is NOT a sign of going bankrupt.
Competition is what is awsome, there would not be no ZL1 if there wasn't a GT500 ... there would be no 400+HP Mustang GT if there wasn't a Camaro SS. Mustang keeps improving year after year, 2010 new body style/suspension/interior, 2011 2 brand new engines matching Camaro's output.
2011-12 Boss 302 and 302 LS. I mean seriously? A sub $50K c ar like the LS will put you ahead of a Porsche 997 GT3, Turbo or Turbo S at Laguna Seca right behind the Devon, ZR1 and ACR. And the $40,000 straight Boss will still put you ahead of a Nissan GTR, Audi R8 4.2 Quatro, Corvette Z06, Cadillac CTS-V, BMW M3, Aston Martin V12 Vantage .... I mean comon ... don't see any $40 Camaro SS in there :cool:
http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna_seca.html (http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna_seca.html)
The claim about the bulk of Camaro buyers being Mustan g ownners is hilliarous, and shamefull. I guaranty you that it's not the guy that bought a 2010/2011 Mustang that decides to turn around and buy a Camaro ... no really ... you buy that?
As far as the claim by Flipwerk Camaros are about giving you a muscle car with all of those upgrades as stock parts. That's why Mustangs are not doing well. Do you even know what a 1SS and 2SS package is? Obviously not otherwise you'll not make a fool of yourself with "look at me I watched Transformer I know about cars" clown statement.
It's ok to have a favorite car or brand, like you obviously to Marchbrum, ... or CAP ... but when you start throwing crap around like you know, you just look like a clown toward the more mature crowd.
Anyway, Camaro sales are killing the Mustang ... yeah ... might I remind GM that Mustangs outsold Camaros like 500,000 to 0 between 2005-09 ... so they have quite some catching up to do :angel:
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The Mustang will never go away, it's Ford's best seller. :noid
No ... it's the F150, the most sold vehicle ... in the WORLD then the Fusion, the Escape and the Focus (don't know if they count the Focus sold in Europe). Second most sold vehiocle in the world is the Silverado :rock still outsold 150,000 to 210,000 for the F series. :old:
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Read this......
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110616/RETAIL01/306169874/1492 (http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110616/RETAIL01/306169874/1492)
Would be a shame for a plant to close though.
I found it funny that the number one car traded in to get a Camaro is a Mustang. hehe
that's 'cause it's all the rage to own a foreign car. :aok
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As a Ford guy I've always liked the Mustangs. OK I take that back.. I never was a big fan of the Fox body (80's) but oh well. When they redesigned it in '94 I thought it looked cool but I quickly leaned that everything was just... cheap. The new '05 design was a HUGE leap in the right direction. A lot of the quality returned, it looked neat, and it went from feeling like a "cheap" ride to feeling like a "luxurious, quality" ride. Everything felt heavier and more solid, and the entire car was more stable as a result.
The problem is that they haven't really made any big changes since then. It's been seven years now and while GM and Chrysler have released their competition by 'bringing back' lost models (Camaro and Challenger), Ford really has nothing to offer someone looking for something new and different as far as sports cars go. In order to stand out, Ford has to continue to change and evolve the Mustang *BUT* to be fair that costs money. Since Ford declined financial assistance I'd imagine that their R&D funds were quite a bit lower... while GM and Chrysler were sinking millions into their sports cars to try to make a quick buck, Ford was busy restructuring their ways of doing business for long term success.
At least that's my theory.
Personally I'm not worried. Even if they end up eliminating the Mustang model altogether like Chevy did the Camaro - in a few years they'll come out with a whole new car that will just BLOW AWAY the competition. Maybe by then I'll be in a financial position to actually OWN ONE! haha
mustang unchanged in 7 years? did you forget the 5.0L? or the 3.7L? or the new body design? there's plenty changed.
people moving to the camaro will be back, unless they like looking at tail lights........ :aok
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Ahh but Ford did accept money.
This year mustang upped the ante with more horsepower as the V6 camaro was almost an equal of the mustang GT with a V8. that was a plus but they then changed the rear end of the car to... well I have no idea what they were thinking. Camaro keeps them coming with the new 40 year annivesary edition and early next year the ZL1. Following later will be the Z28.
I'd hate to see the mustang go the way the camaro did for awhile. I'm truely hoping they find some success to keep them coming too.
My main reason for posting was to nag Cap a bit. Always fun needling eachother between car makes. :)
wait? you're trying to say that the v6 camaro runs mid 12's?
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CAP must be having a good/bad Friday, even I beat him to O'club forum today.
was busy as all get out....but not a good fun kinda busy....more like a "nothing effing going right" kinda busy
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you cant compare the 2, ones a sports car. the other is a muscle car.
thats like comparing a mustang to a Ferrari, or a camaro to a Lamborghini
but i'll see your raise and give you a z06 getting its :ahand handed to it by a 71' charger.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IDVy31Rcn4
todays charger can hardly wear the title of "muscle" car.
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Masherbrum, I didn't really wish to get involved, but you are being such a tool about it. :frown:
Son ... the Mustang is not going away anytime soon. You even posting that article is a clear statement that you know very little about those cars ... or you are so galuable that I'm surprised you are not waiting to hear about your wife ... the Nigarian pricess ... that drained your bank account lately.
It is indeed a fact that the Camaro is outselling the Mustang months after months, but look at the numbers, it's not a crushing victory. The gap increased last couple of months not because people woke up thinking the Mustang was garbage, but because the dealers ran out of them. The shortage of the 3.7 that you mentioned, plus other factors such as the tsunami in Japan that destroyed the paint factory creating a shortage in some colors. Dealers cannot order enought of them, nor keep them in stock, which in any economics books is NOT a sign of going bankrupt.
Competition is what is awsome, there would not be no ZL1 if there wasn't a GT500 ... there would be no 400+HP Mustang GT if there wasn't a Camaro SS. Mustang keeps improving year after year, 2010 new body style/suspension/interior, 2011 2 brand new engines matching Camaro's output.
2011-12 Boss 302 and 302 LS. I mean seriously? A sub $50K c ar like the LS will put you ahead of a Porsche 997 GT3, Turbo or Turbo S at Laguna Seca right behind the Devon, ZR1 and ACR. And the $40,000 straight Boss will still put you ahead of a Nissan GTR, Audi R8 4.2 Quatro, Corvette Z06, Cadillac CTS-V, BMW M3, Aston Martin V12 Vantage .... I mean comon ... don't see any $40 Camaro SS in there :cool:
http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna_seca.html (http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna_seca.html)
The claim about the bulk of Camaro buyers being Mustan g ownners is hilliarous, and shamefull. I guaranty you that it's not the guy that bought a 2010/2011 Mustang that decides to turn around and buy a Camaro ... no really ... you buy that?
As far as the claim by Flipwerk Camaros are about giving you a muscle car with all of those upgrades as stock parts. That's why Mustangs are not doing well. Do you even know what a 1SS and 2SS package is? Obviously not otherwise you'll not make a fool of yourself with "look at me I watched Transformer I know about cars" clown statement.
It's ok to have a favorite car or brand, like you obviously to Marchbrum, ... or CAP ... but when you start throwing crap around like you know, you just look like a clown toward the more mature crowd.
Anyway, Camaro sales are killing the Mustang ... yeah ... might I remind GM that Mustangs outsold Camaros like 500,000 to 0 between 2005-09 ... so they have quite some catching up to do :angel:
I posted no article or any link, you should read the thread to sound more mature. I am a Ford owner, but I have no hatred of GM. So I have no idea why you posted a a wall of text to the wrong person making claims of which he couldn't back up.
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GM has been moving performance guys from the corvette line to the camaro line. That is why the ZL1 will be a track car right off the showroom floor.
Many corvette enthusiast are moving to the camaro too.
care to explain why the camaro hasn't won any continental tire challenge races yet? why even with the modified rear spoiler they were allowed to use, the mustangs could still pummel the camaros that were out there? even on the restart.........302 walked away from the 6.2 camaro at will. :D
6 races. 3 bmw, 3 mustang.
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Umm, the Coyote 5.0 has over 400hp. :headscratch:
435 to the rear tires to be exact.
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You counter with a statement saying a Z06 is not a muscle car...by definition it is one. I provided proof and you have not. The comparison between a Z06 to a GT500 is pretty fair in terms of performance and price. The point in that post was proving that if you can consider a GT500 a muscle car then a Z06 is right there with it.
I don't know what I am talking about? Maybe these guys don't either:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O46E0gCF5os
The mustang line is all about the upgrades!
Corvettes and Camaros are about giving you a muscle car with all of those upgrades as stock parts. That's why Mustangs are not doing well.
the z06 like every corvette, is a sports car.
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The Mustang will never go away, it's Ford's best seller. Look around while your driving in rush hour traffic and count'em.
I wish Obama motors would bring back the Chevelle SS. 1970 Chevelle SS LS6, Rat Motor, 8 MPG. Best 8 miles you'll ever get.
Sadly, we get the Volt.
Pay off the Unions and stiff the investors and consumers, Is that taught in business classes these days?
:noid
guy up the street from my shop has 3 chevelles....all big blocks. all insane. :D
and you are correct.....unlike the camaro, the mustang will never go away....unless cars themselves go away.......and hopefully, the mustang(again unlike the camaro) will remain an american car. :aok
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Masherbrum, I didn't really wish to get involved, but you are being such a tool about it. :frown:
Son ... the Mustang is not going away anytime soon. You even posting that article is a clear statement that you know very little about those cars ... or you are so galuable that I'm surprised you are not waiting to hear about your wife ... the Nigarian pricess ... that drained your bank account lately.
It is indeed a fact that the Camaro is outselling the Mustang months after months, but look at the numbers, it's not a crushing victory. The gap increased last couple of months not because people woke up thinking the Mustang was garbage, but because the dealers ran out of them. The shortage of the 3.7 that you mentioned, plus other factors such as the tsunami in Japan that destroyed the paint factory creating a shortage in some colors. Dealers cannot order enought of them, nor keep them in stock, which in any economics books is NOT a sign of going bankrupt.
Competition is what is awsome, there would not be no ZL1 if there wasn't a GT500 ... there would be no 400+HP Mustang GT if there wasn't a Camaro SS. Mustang keeps improving year after year, 2010 new body style/suspension/interior, 2011 2 brand new engines matching Camaro's output.
2011-12 Boss 302 and 302 LS. I mean seriously? A sub $50K c ar like the LS will put you ahead of a Porsche 997 GT3, Turbo or Turbo S at Laguna Seca right behind the Devon, ZR1 and ACR. And the $40,000 straight Boss will still put you ahead of a Nissan GTR, Audi R8 4.2 Quatro, Corvette Z06, Cadillac CTS-V, BMW M3, Aston Martin V12 Vantage .... I mean comon ... don't see any $40 Camaro SS in there :cool:
http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna_seca.html (http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna_seca.html)
The claim about the bulk of Camaro buyers being Mustan g ownners is hilliarous, and shamefull. I guaranty you that it's not the guy that bought a 2010/2011 Mustang that decides to turn around and buy a Camaro ... no really ... you buy that?
As far as the claim by Flipwerk Camaros are about giving you a muscle car with all of those upgrades as stock parts. That's why Mustangs are not doing well. Do you even know what a 1SS and 2SS package is? Obviously not otherwise you'll not make a fool of yourself with "look at me I watched Transformer I know about cars" clown statement.
It's ok to have a favorite car or brand, like you obviously to Marchbrum, ... or CAP ... but when you start throwing crap around like you know, you just look like a clown toward the more mature crowd.
Anyway, Camaro sales are killing the Mustang ... yeah ... might I remind GM that Mustangs outsold Camaros like 500,000 to 0 between 2005-09 ... so they have quite some catching up to do :angel:
just need to remember one thing. the mustang isn't competing with the camaro. the camaro is competing with the mustang. :aok
amd if you go looking, the mustang gr premium can run right with the bmw m3.
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IMHO
Hasn't been a real Mustang since they did away with this body style.
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm146/dkff49/1973fordmustangmach1-cleveland74.jpg)
The old Mach1's have always been my dream car and as always will be out of my reach financially.
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I posted no article or any link, you should read the thread to sound more mature. I am a Ford owner, but I have no hatred of GM. So I have no idea why you posted a a wall of text to the wrong person making claims of which he couldn't back up.
Yoy are right, I'm awfully sorry for that. :headscratch: How on earth I got you confused with Schuffler I have no idea.
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Yoy are right, I'm awfully sorry for that. :headscratch: How on earth I got you confused with Schuffler I have no idea.
No problem bud.
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Yoy are right, I'm awfully sorry for that. :headscratch: How on earth I got you confused with Schuffler I have no idea.
shuff's takin a poke at me......
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shuff's takin a poke at me......
Damn you Shuff!!!!!!!!! :furious
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435 to the rear tires to be exact.
For a stock Mustang 5.0?! Hell no compadre. :cheers:
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IMHO
Hasn't been a real Mustang since they did away with this body style.
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm146/dkff49/1973fordmustangmach1-cleveland74.jpg)
The old Mach1's have always been my dream car and as always will be out of my reach financially.
No No No lol 69 is the best year for all the manufacturers, early 70's (71-74) they started getting funky looking. i'll stick with my 67-69 all makes there just my favorite years of all the muscle cars
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/68zoom/47_35_1969_FORD_MUSTANG20MACH201_1.jpg)
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For a stock Mustang 5.0?! Hell no compadre. :cheers:
care to make any wagers on that?> :devil
think very carefully./......... :neener:
AAHH HELL......i can't let ya do it...you seem like too cool of a guy.....
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_1003_2011_ford_mustang_gt_premium_test/index.html
this one's kinda fun to watch too.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1010_2011_2011_ford_mustang_gt_vs_2011_bmw_m3_comparison/index.html
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No No No lol 69 is the best year for all the manufacturers, early 70's (71-74) they started getting funky looking. i'll stick with my 67-69 all makes there just my favorite years of all the muscle cars
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/68zoom/47_35_1969_FORD_MUSTANG20MACH201_1.jpg)
73 was the last year of the original mustang. 74 was the first year for the pinto-stang.
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73 was the last year of the original mustang. 74 was the first year for the pinto-stang.
well really they redesigned the car in 71, if you compare a 1970 Mach1 to a 1971 Mach1 totaly different looking front end and a extremly slanted back window, i don't know why Ford considered those still 1st gen cars :headscratch: they could of been called a Gen2 really.
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No No No lol 69 is the best year for all the manufacturers, early 70's (71-74) they started getting funky looking. i'll stick with my 67-69 all makes there just my favorite years of all the muscle cars
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/68zoom/47_35_1969_FORD_MUSTANG20MACH201_1.jpg)
That is one very mean looking car.
I was referring to the general body shape big boxy and just all around look like I want to kick ass. This one is very similar to the one I posted so I would say that we are on the same page.
I wish they had stuck with something close to the original shape and only made improvements to the performance. I know that they need to move forward but I think that had they stuck to that shape, they would have fared out much better.
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if anyone cares to go look....and i'm sure masher will agree with this...........we all "lament" at how great and mighty our 60's hot rods were. they were the bestest. unbeatable. nuthin could touch my camaro. my mustang could corner like a slot car.
fact is, that they sucked. fast was a 14 second 1/4 mile. good cornering, was keeping the roof facing up, and keeping the car on the road. the truly fast cars.....such as the yenkos, the thunderbolt galaxys and fairlanes, etc......THOSE were the exceptions, not the rules.
hell.....look at the 2012 6 cylinder mustang. 3.7 liter, 312hp. 13.7 in the 1/4 mile. .96 on the skidpad. the 6 cylinder camaro is nearly as fast. the challenger, and charger.....maybe by the time we run outta gas, chrysler will get them right. :noid suffice it to say, they'll lose to a decently tuned 6 cylinder camaro or mustang.
these cars are truly king of the hill compared to yesterdays cars. and some of them(mustang) even brought back style, with the camaro trying really hard to match(kinda like in the 60's). :devil
if i could afford it, i'd be driving to and from work in a kona blue boss302, with the track key, not the normal key. i don't give a dam if there's traffic lights.....long as i'm the first one to it. :aok
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As someone who can't find a 2012 Mustang to the specs I want and the dealers who can't keep the new V6's on the lot the only way the Mustang is "going away" is because they sold all of them.
Ford got this one right and the fact you can buy a V6 Mustang Convertible, with better handling than a 2010GT, with the power of a 2010GT (305 V6 vs 315 in the 2010 GT's V8) at a similar price to a 2008 GT Convertible. The daffy bastages just didn't make enough of the damn things and if I want one kitted out the way I want I'm waiting 6-8-10 weeks custom ordered.
The V6 Mustangs are hotcakes this year and they're not just underpowered little cars with automatics that yuppies rent when at a conference.
I actually have CAP1 to blame for pointing out the new V6's are more car than you get than the 2008 GT Vert's and spending more of my money. Add that in with 0% financing for 36 months and 0.9% to 48 months and a whopping 1.9% out to 60 months I can't bring myself to buy a 2008 when I can get more car for the money in a new one.
If you disagree and think they're not selling feel free to find me a Convertible in Kona Blue with Stone interior and a Manual transmission and I'll put my money where my mouth is and buy the thing.
i am glad i was able to help you sir.......and glad to know it's appreciated.
go onto fords website, and check at these ford dealers too.....
winner ford
echelon ford
rice and holman ford
i have personal experience with the parts, and service depts at winner ford. their service is nothing short of spectacular. and their service guys still don't know i'm a mechanic...they think i'm "the civil air patrol guy".
i have personal experience with echelon fords parts dept....and also spectacular service from them.
i mention this, because it stands to reason, that if they do good in those depts, their sales people should be of the same caliber.
way back in 1983, when i bought my 5.0L mustang GL(they told me that they got nearly a dozen sales off of my car sitting on their lot waiting for me to come get it), their sales guy was honest with me, didn't bs me one bit, and worked his arse off to get me financing(i was 20-something with zero credit) for this car.
i know those dealers would be a haul for you, but what the hell....might find whatcha need. also.....one of my customers used to work at echelon ford....if you end up dealing tyhere, i can see if she still has any contacts there for ya. :aok
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Its not the same thing as a bailout. Its bad to misrepresent things.
http://jalopnik.com/5704575/ford-bmw-toyota-took-secret-government-money
i got a question on this link. first off....is it correct, and true? secondly.......lets see if i understand this correctly.
ford(or whichever one) lends me money to buy that shiny new mustang, by letting me take it off the lot for my signature, and say for instance $10k down.
now, they turn around, and sell that loan to hitech's loan purchasing service, in order to put cash(so to speak) back in their pocket(or bank account), so they can research/improve/build more cars.
do i understand that correctly?
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care to make any wagers on that?> :devil
think very carefully./......... :neener:
AAHH HELL......i can't let ya do it...you seem like too cool of a guy.....
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_1003_2011_ford_mustang_gt_premium_test/index.html
this one's kinda fun to watch too.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1010_2011_2011_ford_mustang_gt_vs_2011_bmw_m3_comparison/index.html
Oh yeah Ill bet you. There's no way a stock 5.0 got 435 at the wheels, that's other 500HP at the crank. 412 st the crank for the 5.0, 440ish for the Boss. Ill show you some dynos when I come home. ... Or we order one, dyno it, whoever's right keeps it, other pays for it? :)
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Oh yeah Ill bet you. There's no way a stock 5.0 got 435 at the wheels, that's other 500HP at the crank. 412 st the crank for the 5.0, 440ish for the Boss. Ill show you some dynos when I come home. ... Or we order one, dyno it, whoever's right keeps it, other pays for it? :)
if i had the money, i'd take ya up on that bet......but to be honest, should i lose, i could not keep up my end....and even here on the intardnets, i will not make a bet i cannot back.
that all being said......did you look at those links? a chassis dyno displays the power to the tires, correct?
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<yawn> age old argument.
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<yawn> age old argument.
age old yes. but it's still fun. 'specially with the camaro guys always havin to play catch up
:devil :uhoh
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i am glad i was able to help you sir.......and glad to know it's appreciated.
go onto fords website, and check at these ford dealers too.....
winner ford
echelon ford
rice and holman ford
i have personal experience with the parts, and service depts at winner ford. their service is nothing short of spectacular. and their service guys still don't know i'm a mechanic...they think i'm "the civil air patrol guy".
i have personal experience with echelon fords parts dept....and also spectacular service from them.
i mention this, because it stands to reason, that if they do good in those depts, their sales people should be of the same caliber.
way back in 1983, when i bought my 5.0L mustang GL(they told me that they got nearly a dozen sales off of my car sitting on their lot waiting for me to come get it), their sales guy was honest with me, didn't bs me one bit, and worked his arse off to get me financing(i was 20-something with zero credit) for this car.
i know those dealers would be a haul for you, but what the hell....might find whatcha need. also.....one of my customers used to work at echelon ford....if you end up dealing tyhere, i can see if she still has any contacts there for ya. :aok
Thanks! I've looked at hundreds of dealers online inventories, made dozens of phone calls and have stopped in to about 20 different dealerships when I saw a Mustang that looked a little bit like what I'm looking for. PA, DE, KY, SC, GA, OH and places in between so far. I'm going to give the search another 2 weeks or so before I just order the thing. Though more than one dealership has offered to order it for no deposit since they know they're going to sell it so I may as well sooner rather than later. Decisions, decisions.
My only question is will I end up paying Dealer Invoice +1000 because you're involved, or MSRP +1000? That will change my mind on whether or not I ask for help :neener:
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if i had the money, i'd take ya up on that bet......but to be honest, should i lose, i could not keep up my end....and even here on the intardnets, i will not make a bet i cannot back.
that all being said......did you look at those links? a chassis dyno displays the power to the tires, correct?
Oh yeah ... no idea what on earth they screewed up. That's journalisum at his best, what you expect from guys that drive in sweat pants and tenis shoes, and the idea of a succesfull car test is burn outs and drifting ... no really ... :rolleyes:
Here this is more like it : 375-380 RWHP depending on how you calibrate your dyno.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb6BqYbTu5Y (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb6BqYbTu5Y)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciAu8OlrFNI&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciAu8OlrFNI&feature=related)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLf8ZP8F1OU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLf8ZP8F1OU)
Go to Livernoios Motorsport, Steeda, Bramaspeed website that sell tunes for the GTs you'll see their stock numbers. Tune + CAI + headers + cat back you can expect
a bit over 420 RWHP like this guy:
Stainless Works 1-7/8" LTs w/ Catless XP, Stainless Works Retro Chambered CB, C&L CAI, JLT Oil Separator, SCT SF3 w/ Livernois Motorsports 93 Tune
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-o8WvE0-9BbY/TfgSzd1CacI/AAAAAAAAAxs/qklpfJj_gFg/s640/Scanned%252520Image.jpg)
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Thanks! I've looked at hundreds of dealers online inventories, made dozens of phone calls and have stopped in to about 20 different dealerships when I saw a Mustang that looked a little bit like what I'm looking for. PA, DE, KY, SC, GA, OH and places in between so far. I'm going to give the search another 2 weeks or so before I just order the thing. Though more than one dealership has offered to order it for no deposit since they know they're going to sell it so I may as well sooner rather than later. Decisions, decisions.
My only question is will I end up paying Dealer Invoice +1000 because you're involved, or MSRP +1000? That will change my mind on whether or not I ask for help :neener:
Fool. Buy a couple of Ford stock. I bought 5 myself. Send your proof of stock ownership to get your Xplan pin from Ford. Give your pin to the dealer, enjoy your savings, bless the French guy.
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Just did a little looking and my EAA Membership makes me eligible for the X Plan Pricing :banana:
Viva la Frenchy!
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Even better then :salute
Xplan is how I bought/ordered mine, no haggleling/BS/ADM ... Hi, I want that, here's my pin, have a nice day.
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Even better then :salute
Xplan is how I bought/ordered mine, no haggleling/BS/ADM ... Hi, I want that, here's my pin, have a nice day.
uumm....could you eloborate on that Xplan thing please? i may end up at dealerships looking myself now.........
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http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_1003_2011_ford_mustang_gt_premium_test/index.html
It looked to me like they dyno'd it and then converted the rwhp number to crank hp.
I don't know why they'd do that but those magazine guys seem to do a lot of wacky stuff. :rolleyes: It would make sense to convert it to compare to the claimed 412hp, but any car guy would want to know what it actually puts to the ground too.
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It looked to me like they dyno'd it and then converted the rwhp number to crank hp.
I don't know why they'd do that but those magazine guys seem to do a lot of wacky stuff. :rolleyes: It would make sense to convert it to compare to the claimed 412hp, but any car guy would want to know what it actually puts to the ground too.
yea, they do, and to be honest, i hadn't noticed before that they never said "rear wheel hp". i've never dealt with a horsepower dyno myself, so i thought that the readings from there were just that.....guess i was wrong. it happens.
fact it it's still the quickest of the pony cars, best handling(real world), and most popular.
noticed a red camaro, and a black camaro on the lot down at the ford dealer just a mile from my shop......the red one was labeled as a 2010. wonder which stang they bought. :aok
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i got a question on this link. first off....is it correct, and true? secondly.......lets see if i understand this correctly.
ford(or whichever one) lends me money to buy that shiny new mustang, by letting me take it off the lot for my signature, and say for instance $10k down.
now, they turn around, and sell that loan to hitech's loan purchasing service, in order to put cash(so to speak) back in their pocket(or bank account), so they can research/improve/build more cars.
do i understand that correctly?
i'm just bumping this one, because i haven't seen an answer to it yet.
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CAP u saw those dyno numbers previous page?
About the loan, idk, don't see what's so bad about it. My house home loan was the same. Richmond American builders have their own mortgage company. They gather all the mortgages of the last couple of months and put them to auction. I ended up with BOA. Clever way to make money. Loans terms can't be change do why do I care anyway?
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CAP u saw those dyno numbers previous page?
About the loan, idk, don't see what's so bad about it. My house home loan was the same. Richmond American builders have their own mortgage company. They gather all the mortgages of the last couple of months and put them to auction. I ended up with BOA. Clever way to make money. Loans terms can't be change do why do I care anyway?
yea i did. like i said...i was wrong, due to my presumption of them using rear wheel numbers, seeing as it was on a chassis dyno.
yea....my mortgage was bought by gmac. i forget who it was originally with......
the numbers though, don't matter much(well...they sort of do :devil) when you're driving the car that's out front though. :D
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Not a little biased are you? Not too well informed either. There have been a slew of comparisons between the Mustang, Camaro and Charger. The Mustang always cleaned the Camaro and Chargers clock.
Not till this year has the mustang the ability to compete. Last year the v8 gt was barely able to handle the v6 camaro. :)
As of now the most performance camaro wise is the SS. There are more packages on the way though.
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Suffler, Flipperk, I didn't really wish to get involved, but you are being such a tool about it. :frown:
Son ... the Mustang is not going away anytime soon. You even posting that article is a clear statement that you know very little about those cars ... or you are so galuable that I'm surprised you are not waiting to hear about your wife ... the Nigarian pricess ... that drained your bank account lately.
It is indeed a fact that the Camaro is outselling the Mustang months after months, but look at the numbers, it's not a crushing victory. The gap increased last couple of months not because people woke up thinking the Mustang was garbage, but because the dealers ran out of them. The shortage of the 3.7 that you mentioned, plus other factors such as the tsunami in Japan that destroyed the paint factory creating a shortage in some colors. Dealers cannot order enought of them, nor keep them in stock, which in any economics books is NOT a sign of going bankrupt.
Competition is what is awsome, there would not be no ZL1 if there wasn't a GT500 ... there would be no 400+HP Mustang GT if there wasn't a Camaro SS. Mustang keeps improving year after year, 2010 new body style/suspension/interior, 2011 2 brand new engines matching Camaro's output.
2011-12 Boss 302 and 302 LS. I mean seriously? A sub $50K c ar like the LS will put you ahead of a Porsche 997 GT3, Turbo or Turbo S at Laguna Seca right behind the Devon, ZR1 and ACR. And the $40,000 straight Boss will still put you ahead of a Nissan GTR, Audi R8 4.2 Quatro, Corvette Z06, Cadillac CTS-V, BMW M3, Aston Martin V12 Vantage .... I mean comon ... don't see any $40 Camaro SS in there :cool:
http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna_seca.html (http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna_seca.html)
The claim about the bulk of Camaro buyers being Mustan g ownners is hilliarous, and shamefull. I guaranty you that it's not the guy that bought a 2010/2011 Mustang that decides to turn around and buy a Camaro ... no really ... you buy that?
As far as the claim by Flipwerk Camaros are about giving you a muscle car with all of those upgrades as stock parts. That's why Mustangs are not doing well. Do you even know what a 1SS and 2SS package is? Obviously not otherwise you'll not make a fool of yourself with "look at me I watched Transformer I know about cars" clown statement.
It's ok to have a favorite car or brand, like you obviously to Marchbrum, ... or CAP ... but when you start throwing crap around like you know, you just look like a clown toward the more mature crowd.
Anyway, Camaro sales are killing the Mustang ... yeah ... might I remind GM that Mustangs outsold Camaros like 500,000 to 0 between 2005-09 ... so they have quite some catching up to do :angel:
I posted the magazine story. Figured to get some healthy discussion going. Most has been interesting. Always fun to have the old late 60s rivalry going. Your use of name calling just shows your weakness in the ability to have a fun discussion. I did not read your post because it failed in the first sentence.
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No No No lol 69 is the best year for all the manufacturers, early 70's (71-74) they started getting funky looking. i'll stick with my 67-69 all makes there just my favorite years of all the muscle cars
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/68zoom/47_35_1969_FORD_MUSTANG20MACH201_1.jpg)
That's a damn good looking car in anyone's book. :D
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One posted about truoble finding the V6 stang. That was covered in the link from my OP. They are having trouble getting the v6 engines to the plant.
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Not till this year has the mustang the ability to compete. Last year the v8 gt was barely able to handle the v6 camaro. :)
As of now the most performance camaro wise is the SS. There are more packages on the way though.
true....but how many years did chevy have nothing in the mustangs class to compete with it? :neener:
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true....but how many years did chevy have nothing in the mustangs class to compete with it? :neener:
Quite a few. I still recall in either 90 or 91, one of the magazines did a head to head on the Mustang GT and the Corvette. The GT had a faster 0-60 and IIRC a faster 1/4 mile. Not too shabby.
Truth be told. I would have no problem owning a Vette.
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Quite a few. I still recall in either 90 or 91, one of the magazines did a head to head on the Mustang GT and the Corvette. The GT had a faster 0-60 and IIRC a faster 1/4 mile. Not too shabby.
Truth be told. I would have no problem owning a Vette.
i agree with the corvette.
as much as i love my mustangs(have i told you guys i love mustangs?) if money were no object, and i could go out, and pick the top of the line model of any ford or chevy i wanted.....i'd buy the corvette hands down.
that being said....when i do manage to afford my gt....i'll spend time picking on the corvette guys too. :noid :neener:
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Check your PM/Email for the price list :neener:
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I posted the magazine story. Figured to get some healthy discussion going. Most has been interesting. Always fun to have the old late 60s rivalry going. Your use of name calling just shows your weakness in the ability to have a fun discussion. I did not read your post because it failed in the first sentence.
That's cute. If you want a fun healthy discussion, don't start with a troll ' mustang is probably toast' troll title, backed by said statement. You don't make friends in a biker bar by stepping thru the door and throwing a mamoth firecracker on someone's neck.
Since you didn't read my post I'm going to cry, cancel my AH subscription, and move back in my mom's basement. :cheers: bah who the heck cares. Purse fight!
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That's cute. If you want a fun healthy discussion, don't start with a troll ' mustang is probably toast' troll title, backed by said statement. You don't make friends in a biker bar by stepping thru the door and throwing a mamoth firecracker on someone's neck.
Since you didn't read my post I'm going to cry, cancel my AH subscription, and move back in my mom's basement. :cheers: bah who the heck cares. Purse fight!
actually, it's much more fun to toss a bunch of firecrackers strung together into the midst of a bunch of people. be ready to tun. :bolt: :bolt: :airplane:
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true....but how many years did chevy have nothing in the mustangs class to compete with it? :neener:
7
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That's cute. If you want a fun healthy discussion, don't start with a troll ' mustang is probably toast' troll title, backed by said statement. You don't make friends in a biker bar by stepping thru the door and throwing a mamoth firecracker on someone's neck.
Since you didn't read my post I'm going to cry, cancel my AH subscription, and move back in my mom's basement. :cheers: bah who the heck cares. Purse fight!
You clicked on the link. Maybe you are your own worst enemy.
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7
:devil there ya go. 7 years with no competition. soon as they brought in something to compete, they did what they've almost always done, and snuffed out that fire. :neener:
this is fun, seeing this stuff again. :aok
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:devil there ya go. 7 years with no competition. soon as they brought in something to compete, they did what they've almost always done, and snuffed out that fire. :neener:
this is fun, seeing this stuff again. :aok
Oh no... the fire is blazing and the stang is getting burned :P
It will just get worse next year with the new camaros coming out.
Hopefully it'll be just like the late 60s and ford will step up again. It's fun the ebb and flow... along with pickin' and grinnin'. :D
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Oh no... the fire is blazing and the stang is getting burned :P
It will just get worse next year with the new camaros coming out.
Hopefully it'll be just like the late 60s and ford will step up again. It's fun the ebb and flow... along with pickin' and grinnin'. :D
that's just it....ford doesn't have to step up. the camaro is already slower. the gt easily handles the equilieant camaro, the shelbys easily handle the equilivant camaros, and the v6's are faster.
by the time chevy releases the faster camaros, there'll already be faster mustangs. try to remember. the 5.0L has already proven itself on the track. the 6.2 not so much as yet. :devil
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Ford is so confident in the performance and quality of the production Mustang that they sell for street use that they refuse to provide any specifications to NHRA to allow their production car to race in Stock Eliminator or Super Stock. The only thing they send to compete in drag racing is a bunch of ringers, cars you cannot even buy for street use. They pay NHRA to accept them with ludicrous HP ratings to make them competitive.
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i'm sure chevy's done their fair share of that.
that said....i was referencing the road courses. at watkins glen, the lead mustang easily walked away from the camaro on two consecutive restarts, both in the straight away, and on the first turn, whilst the camaro was still in some form of striking distance.
just outta curiosity......they kept mentioning the new, or repositioned spoiler on the camaros helping. who cried about that? chevy, holden, or the teams running them? :devil
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Cap, it only matters because Ford has done it.....
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Ahh but Ford did accept money.
This year mustang upped the ante with more horsepower as the V6 camaro was almost an equal of the mustang GT with a V8. that was a plus but they then changed the rear end of the car to... well I have no idea what they were thinking. Camaro keeps them coming with the new 40 year annivesary edition and early next year the ZL1. Following later will be the Z28.
I'd hate to see the mustang go the way the camaro did for awhile. I'm truely hoping they find some success to keep them coming too.
My main reason for posting was to nag Cap a bit. Always fun needling eachother between car makes. :)
funny since the original new camaro couldnt out accelerate, outbrake, or outturn the mustang... gotta love what a year or so of upgrading can do eh?
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Cap, it only matters because Ford has done it.....
i've got the impression someone took this thread a lil too seriously too......... :devil probably hates people like me..... :noid
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Cap, it only matters because Ford has done it.....
Zing! :devil
Sorry 'bout your friday Cap. Hope for better weather and luck this week.
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For Strip use Mopar is making the Mopar 10. It is plain white.....no vin number so it can not be used on the street. You are
delivered a body....without suspension or wheels, ya get a HEMI...one of choice. Sorta like the days of the lightweight Belvedere
and the Ford Thunderbolt.....Fairlane lightweight. Those were the days. The Ford 427 against MOPARS 426. Ronnie Sox et.al.
And ya....I was there :aok. Bruce Larson and his cobra etc. The Dragon Snake! Grumpy Jenkins also!
(you young whippersnappers might not recognize the names) :aok
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Zing! :devil
Sorry 'bout your friday Cap. Hope for better weather and luck this week.
thanks dood. it should get better. things were hectic today, 'cause the ulcer on my ankle is slowing me down a bit, and all of my outside sales reps show up on mondays.
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For Strip use Mopar is making the Mopar 10. It is plain white.....no vin number so it can not be used on the street. You are
delivered a body....without suspension or wheels, ya get a HEMI...one of choice. Sorta like the days of the lightweight Belvedere
and the Ford Thunderbolt.....Fairlane lightweight. Those were the days. The Ford 427 against MOPARS 426. Ronnie Sox et.al.
And ya....I was there :aok. Bruce Larson and his cobra etc. The Dragon Snake! Grumpy Jenkins also!
(you young whippersnappers might not recognize the names) :aok
but in those days, the thunderbolts were rollers. you had to pick them up at the dealer the day they came in(from what i've been told). i think the thunderbolts were the fastest of those types too. the cammer was outlawed from nascar back then...prolly due to chrysler and chevy whining about the arse whooping they were gonna get from that engine.......
and today, you get the cobrajet mustangs. quickest production car there is. not street legal, but still the quickest. :devil :aok
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Quite a few. I still recall in either 90 or 91, one of the magazines did a head to head on the Mustang GT and the Corvette. The GT had a faster 0-60 and IIRC a faster 1/4 mile. Not too shabby.
Truth be told. I would have no problem owning a Vette.
Oh I believe it. My buddy has a c4 and my 95gt, which has the same 5.0 but is quite a bit heavier than the foxes, used to be pretty much even with him in the 1/4 mile before I put the 4.10 gears in it. Both have stock engines with minor bolt-ons.
He's a bit more aerodynamic, though (just a little :lol), so once you get up past around 90 he's just gone. Not to mention the whole...turning...thing.
But you guys are right, if I could buy any car it would be a Vette. You just can't beat the performance for the price with the Z06 and the ZR1. Though I like Fords, I'm a fan of anything with muscle. And though I wasn't around for the first muscle car wars, it sure is nice to witness this one, that's for sure. :cheers:
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Oh I believe it. My buddy has a c4 and my 95gt, which has the same 5.0 but is quite a bit heavier than the foxes, used to be pretty much even with him in the 1/4 mile before I put the 4.10 gears in it. Both have stock engines with minor bolt-ons.
He's a bit more aerodynamic, though (just a little :lol), so once you get up past around 90 he's just gone. Not to mention the whole...turning...thing.
But you guys are right, if I could buy any car it would be a Vette. You just can't beat the performance for the price with the Z06 and the ZR1. Though I like Fords, I'm a fan of anything with muscle. And though I wasn't around for the first muscle car wars, it sure is nice to witness this one, that's for sure. :cheers:
the whole "turning thing" is more the driver than the car, when it comes to street driving. you can ask the mustang driver that tried beating me to an on-ramp last night. he pulled through the toll booth a little after me, almost got by me....but he didn't know his car, thus he was on the brakes way too early. i got the lane we both wanted. :devil
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funny since the original new camaro couldnt out accelerate, outbrake, or outturn the mustang... gotta love what a year or so of upgrading can do eh?
You have that backwards.
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You have that backwards.
no he doesn't. :aok
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Last year mustang could not hold a candle to the camaro..... this year they can. It's small enough that the driver makes all the difference this year.
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Last year mustang could not hold a candle to the camaro..... this year they can. It's small enough that the driver makes all the difference this year.
well, last year wasn't the original camaro. and it couldn't out corner that mustang. it couldn't out brake it.
them being close in handling, is a shot in the arse to the camaro, with it's irs, considering that the mustang has a "great whacking girder" for a rear. :devil
and of course, don't forget that the stang out turned, out braked, and out accelerated the camaro on the track. for at least 6 road races so far. wonder what the chevy guys are gonna ask the governing body to let them have, so they can compete? the new rear spoiler setup didn't help them much.
it's like i said......the mustang doesn't have to compete with the camaro. the mustang is the original, and everything else is.....well........less. :devil
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i'm wondering how long Camaro is going to hold onto the 69 retro look, there beginning to become bellybutton cars.
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i'm wondering how long Camaro is going to hold onto the 69 retro look, there beginning to become bellybutton cars.
on the exterior, it's a good looking car, 'cept for those corvette lookin tail lights. i'd have liked to see something more period looking back there on em....doesn't matter though. one never sees the back end of a slower car. :devil
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well, last year wasn't the original camaro. and it couldn't out corner that mustang. it couldn't out brake it.
them being close in handling, is a shot in the arse to the camaro, with it's irs, considering that the mustang has a "great whacking girder" for a rear. :devil
and of course, don't forget that the stang out turned, out braked, and out accelerated the camaro on the track. for at least 6 road races so far. wonder what the chevy guys are gonna ask the governing body to let them have, so they can compete? the new rear spoiler setup didn't help them much.
it's like i said......the mustang doesn't have to compete with the camaro. the mustang is the original, and everything else is.....well........less. :devil
You keep bringing up the track. I have not seen those available at the local dealership. :D
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You keep bringing up the track. I have not seen those available at the local dealership. :D
i can go right down the steet and get a boss302. that's the mustang that's eating up the camaros. :aok
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i can go right down the steet and get a boss302. that's the mustang that's eating up the camaros. :aok
Ahhh a boss 302... so the races your talking about are all stockers?
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i'm wondering how long Camaro is going to hold onto the 69 retro look, there beginning to become bellybutton cars.
GM is retooling the Camaro to use the new small Cadillac platform. It is supposed to be coming in 2012. It will be about the size of the original Camaro. Should shave a lot of weight off.
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GM is retooling the Camaro to use the new small Cadillac platform. It is supposed to be coming in 2012. It will be about the size of the original Camaro. Should shave a lot of weight off.
Believe that is slated for 2014. In 2012 We get the ZL1 early in the year. It is a full track car right off the showroom floor. Horsepower will be greater than 550 and will have full race suspension. Later in the year we may see the Z28.
The new naturaly aspirated 6 is coming out too. It will be around 340 hp off the floor. It is going to have some wierd heads on it with built in exhaust.
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Fix Or Repair Daily
Don't try that with Pontiac.
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I lost my virginity in a mustang :bolt:.
semp
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I lost my virginity in a mustang :bolt:.
semp
Was he a gentleman?
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You have that backwards.
He doesn't.
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Believe that is slated for 2014. In 2012 We get the ZL1 early in the year. It is a full track car right off the showroom floor. Horsepower will be greater than 550 and will have full race suspension. Later in the year we may see the Z28.
The new naturaly aspirated 6 is coming out too. It will be around 340 hp off the floor. It is going to have some wierd heads on it with built in exhaust.
so they're aiming the zl1 for the boss302's and/or the shelbys.
good luck. they'll need it. :devil
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Year: Mustang/Camaro
64:*121,583/NA
65: 559,451/NA
66: 607,568/NA
67: 474,121/*220,906
68: 317,404/ 235,147
68: 299,824/ 243,065
69: 299,824/ 243,065
70: 190,727/ 124,901
71:*149,678/*114,630
72: 125,093/ 114,630 (not a typo!)
73: 134,867/ 96,751
74:*385,993/ 151,008
75: 188,575/ 145,770
76: 187,567/ 182,959
77: 153,173/ 218,858
78: 192,410/ 272,631
79:*369,936/ 282,571
80: 271,322/ 152,005
81: 181,552/ 126,139
82: 130,418/*189,747
83: 120,873/ 154,318
84: 135,678/ 261,591
85: 156,514/ 180,018
86: 224,410/ 192,219
87: 159,145/ 137,760
88: 211,225/ 96,275
89: 209,769/ 110,850
90: 128,189/ 35,048
91: 98,737/ 101,316
92: 79,280/ 70,712
93: 114,228/ *39,755
94:*123,198/ 119,934
95: 185,986/ 122,844
96: 126,483/ 66,827
97: 100,254/ 95,812
98: 170,642/ 77,198
99: 126,067/ 42,098
00: 218,525/ 45,417
01: 155,162/ 29,009
you may be interested to note that there are only 7 years that the camaro outsold the mustang. :aok
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That's going to leave a mark CAP :devil
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Would it end an argument if i said that both Mustang and Camaro are pieces of crap and they popular in only one country strictly for patriotic reason?
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Would it end an argument if i said that both Mustang and Camaro are pieces of crap and they popular in only one country strictly for patriotic reason?
you dont travel much outside of the us. havent been outside the us lately but when I did, I saw mustangs everywhere.
semp
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Would it end an argument if i said that both Mustang and Camaro are pieces of crap and they popular in only one country strictly for patriotic reason?
No it would just make you seem like a troll and probably get you chewed out. Mostly everyone in here likes one car or the other. I'm a huge Mustang fan so I don't like hearing it being called crap. :D
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Would it end an argument if i said that both Mustang and Camaro are pieces of crap and they popular in only one country strictly for patriotic reason?
motortrend(or maybe car&driver, cant remember)
took the camaro, mustang, and challenger all on a eruopean tour when they first came out.
they said the eruopeans like the Mustangs interior the most, while the camero got a few fans.
but apparently the challenger was the favorite of the group. they said they stoped at a biker club, and the challenger got swarmed. it was the fastest of the 3 on the autobahn,
and that apparently at a red light, someone pulled up in a porshe911,took a look at the challenger, and offered to trade them (which the article writer claimed he was very tempted to do)
American Muscle is alot more popular overseas than you might think.
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That's going to leave a mark CAP :devil
wanna know the best part? i was tired, so i didn't search too far. it's from a forum. a camaro forum. :D
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Would it end an argument if i said that both Mustang and Camaro are pieces of crap and they popular in only one country strictly for patriotic reason?
in a way, yes it would be a very valid argument. why? because that's your opinion, and when it comes right down to it, that all any of us have.
that being said.......for the money, there's nothing on that side of the pond that'll touch either of them....although technically speaking one of them came from across a pond sorta....... :noid
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motortrend(or maybe car&driver, cant remember)
took the camaro, mustang, and challenger all on a eruopean tour when they first came out.
they said the eruopeans like the Mustangs interior the most, while the camero got a few fans.
but apparently the challenger was the favorite of the group. they said they stoped at a biker club, and the challenger got swarmed. it was the fastest of the 3 on the autobahn,
and that apparently at a red light, someone pulled up in a porshe911,took a look at the challenger, and offered to trade them (which the article writer claimed he was very tempted to do)
American Muscle is alot more popular overseas than you might think.
i've never seen a single report that has the challenger doing much more than giving the 6 cylinder stangs and camaros a run......v8's.....ferget it.
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He doesn't.
Well if I understand his post.. he does.
Last year the V6 camaro was the equal of the Mustang GT V8. This year mustang was updated.
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and next year the camaro will be updated...and still slower. :devil
in the meantime, here's a pair of street cars. good thing the camaro has that high tech irs, eh? :devil
http://blog.americanmuscle.com/watch-our-2012-boss-302-mustang-vs-a-camaro-ss/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=fbpost6212011camboss
before ya try saying it's biased........that is exactly what is happening on the track, and thus i would imagine at stop light challenges. over 2 seconds faster. the plain old gt would've torn it up too. :neener:
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and next year the camaro will be updated...and still slower. :devil
in the meantime, here's a pair of street cars. good thing the camaro has that high tech irs, eh? :devil
http://blog.americanmuscle.com/watch-our-2012-boss-302-mustang-vs-a-camaro-ss/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=fbpost6212011camboss
before ya try saying it's biased........that is exactly what is happening on the track, and thus i would imagine at stop light challenges. over 2 seconds faster. the plain old gt would've torn it up too. :neener:
.... and the fun continues :D
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of course. :aok
you see how bad that dood got his arse handed to him though?
i've beentalking to friends........might get a group of 20 or so of us and rent that track in the video, for a sunday of fun. so far, there's 2 mustangs, a camaro, a bmw, and an audi committed...and my fairmont, which is a mustang in disguise. hopefully no one wants to bring any rice burners....but if they do, it'll still be fun.
and for some reason that just reminded me....gotta call my old boss.....i'm sure he'll want to bring his vette.......
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of course. :aok
you see how bad that dood got his arse handed to him though?
i've beentalking to friends........might get a group of 20 or so of us and rent that track in the video, for a sunday of fun. so far, there's 2 mustangs, a camaro, a bmw, and an audi committed...and my fairmont, which is a mustang in disguise. hopefully no one wants to bring any rice burners....but if they do, it'll still be fun.
and for some reason that just reminded me....gotta call my old boss.....i'm sure he'll want to bring his vette.......
After this post I went back and watched the video. lol They take a 2012 and run it against a 2010. They even state the Boss 302 is purpose built.
In the spring they can test it against the ZL1. It will be purpose built too.
Even the 40 year annivesary camaro would have been a better comparison. One thing the camaro will still have in 2012 is weight.
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After this post I went back and watched the video. lol They take a 2012 and run it against a 2010. They even state the Boss 302 is purpose built.
In the spring they can test it against the ZL1. It will be purpose built too.
Even the 40 year annivesary camaro would have been a better comparison. One thing the camaro will still have in 2012 is weight.
i knew ya were gonna go there. you missed the point. the plain old gt would've taken that camaro by about a second. and they're not gonna change the zl1 by enough to make up 2 full seconds i would think.
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Year: Mustang/Camaro
64:*121,583/NA
65: 559,451/NA
66: 607,568/NA
67: 474,121/*220,906
68: 317,404/ 235,147
68: 299,824/ 243,065
69: 299,824/ 243,065
70: 190,727/ 124,901
71:*149,678/*114,630
72: 125,093/ 114,630 (not a typo!)
73: 134,867/ 96,751
74:*385,993/ 151,008
75: 188,575/ 145,770
76: 187,567/ 182,959
77: 153,173/ 218,858
78: 192,410/ 272,631
79:*369,936/ 282,571
80: 271,322/ 152,005
81: 181,552/ 126,139
82: 130,418/*189,747
83: 120,873/ 154,318
84: 135,678/ 261,591
85: 156,514/ 180,018
86: 224,410/ 192,219
87: 159,145/ 137,760
88: 211,225/ 96,275
89: 209,769/ 110,850
90: 128,189/ 35,048
91: 98,737/ 101,316
92: 79,280/ 70,712
93: 114,228/ *39,755
94:*123,198/ 119,934
95: 185,986/ 122,844
96: 126,483/ 66,827
97: 100,254/ 95,812
98: 170,642/ 77,198
99: 126,067/ 42,098
00: 218,525/ 45,417
01: 155,162/ 29,009
you may be interested to note that there are only 7 years that the camaro outsold the mustang. :aok
How about you run those figures including firebird into the camaro figures (all years), include the cougar with mustang figures from 1967-1973, and the capri figures from 1979 to 1986 with the mustang figures?
It's possible that this would propel the mustang/cougar/capri even further in sales figures over the camaro/firebird but not sure.
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Year: Mustang/Camaro
64:*121,583/NA
65: 559,451/NA
66: 607,568/NA
67: 474,121/*220,906
68: 317,404/ 235,147
68: 299,824/ 243,065
69: 299,824/ 243,065
70: 190,727/ 124,901
71:*149,678/*114,630
72: 125,093/ 114,630 (not a typo!)
73: 134,867/ 96,751
74:*385,993/ 151,008
75: 188,575/ 145,770
76: 187,567/ 182,959
77: 153,173/ 218,858
78: 192,410/ 272,631
79:*369,936/ 282,571
80: 271,322/ 152,005
81: 181,552/ 126,139
82: 130,418/*189,747
83: 120,873/ 154,318
84: 135,678/ 261,591
85: 156,514/ 180,018
86: 224,410/ 192,219
87: 159,145/ 137,760
88: 211,225/ 96,275
89: 209,769/ 110,850
90: 128,189/ 35,048
91: 98,737/ 101,316
92: 79,280/ 70,712
93: 114,228/ *39,755
94:*123,198/ 119,934
95: 185,986/ 122,844
96: 126,483/ 66,827
97: 100,254/ 95,812
98: 170,642/ 77,198
99: 126,067/ 42,098
00: 218,525/ 45,417
01: 155,162/ 29,009
you may be interested to note that there are only 7 years that the camaro outsold the mustang. :aok
most sold =/= the better car.
i've never seen a single report that has the challenger doing much more than giving the 6 cylinder stangs and camaros a run......v8's.....ferget it.
2011 challenger has the highest top speed out of all 3 at a little over 175mph due to its speed not being electronically limited
the limited edition Viper powered srt-10 challenger's top speed is in the 190s.
and the hennesey 900hp supercharged challenger is in that range as well.
its not the quicket 0-60, but it is the fastest.
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How about you run those figures including firebird into the camaro figures (all years), include the cougar with mustang figures from 1967-1973, and the capri figures from 1979 to 1986 with the mustang figures?
funny you mention capri.
when we were running out camaro down at atco, we were consistant low 10's. when we tuned her right, dhe'd go 9.9's easily.
there was a guy with a 79 capri, 460, c-6 tranny. same basic suspension setup as us. at that time, the camaro was running a 454 bored to 461(i think that was the displacement), with a turbo400 tranny. both approx. the same weight. i never beat that car to the traps. ever. i did put him on the trailer a couple weekends in a row in the bracket races.....but that's only 'cause i'm better at running my number than he is.
so......ford 460, chevy 454, bored......everything else pretty much the same.....and he hammered me every single time in heads up racing.
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i knew ya were gonna go there. you missed the point. the plain old gt would've taken that camaro by about a second. and they're not gonna change the zl1 by enough to make up 2 full seconds i would think.
The plane old GT would have been a better comparison.
They are not changing the ZL... it is all new camaro setup.
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The plane old GT would have been a better comparison.
They are not changing the ZL... it is all new camaro setup.
so it is much the same as it has been for nearly 50 years.....once again, chevy is attempting to compete with ford. :airplane:
you guys need to understand too....i don't hate chevy, nor do i hate the camaros. i've owned and driven chevys, i've raced both fords and chevys. it's fun no matter what i'm sitting behind the wheel of.
the simple fact, though, is that the mustang is a better car. it was the original, and the original was the best. i(and i'm sure others too) am very thankful for the camaro, as without chevy needling ford like this, they would never have developed the mustang to its current state of greatness.
the mustang is the only pony car that has been in non-stop production since it was first born. there is a reason for that. and it now shares the podium(did i spell that right?) with the corvette, in as much as it is one of only 2 true american performance cars.
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Actually, GM/Chevrolet has consistently beaten Ford. Example, Ford claims the F150 is the number one seller, by a narrow margin, over the Chevy 1500. Add the functionally equivalent GMC 1500, and the numbers are reversed, dramatically. Everyone knows a Chevy and a GMC are the same truck, outside of some trim. Combine the two in sales and see where Ford ranks.
Further, the small block Chevy remained in constant production from 1955 until 1997 in cars. That's 42 years. Nothing Ford built approaches that. The various performance small block Chevy engines, the 302, the 327, and the 350, have dominated their Ford competitors for decades. The big block Chevy, was in constant production from 1965 until 2010, that's 45 years. No big block Ford has ever built has even come close in performance or longevity.
You want to talk about the "pony cars"? The 67 350 SS Camaro beat the small block Ford Mustang, that's what drove Ford to put FE engines in Mustangs. Woops, that didn't work so well. The 67, 68, and 69 396/375, Camaro and later, the 69 Camaro 427/425, cleaned the clocks of their 67, 68, 69, and 70 FE 390 and 428 Mustang counterparts. Same for the 402/375 Camaro. Oh, the 302 Z/28 consistently outperformed the small block Mustang in 67, 68, and 69. The 350 LT-1 Z/28 easily beat the Mustang 351C. And don't even bother with those limited "Boss" engines. They stink on the street, and they don't live on the track, the RPM required to make them run competitively keeps them from living consistently. There's no need to even bring up the 69 ZL-1 Camaro, nothing Ford built could touch it.
By the way, in order to make the FE compete, to some degree, with the big block Chevy, NHRA had to allow the FE racers to grind their cranks down and put big block Chevy rods in them. Boy, I bet that was a tough pill to swallow.
You surely do not want to compare the performance of the LT-1 F body, never mind the LS series F body, to the Mustangs of that era. No Mustang of that era even competes, despite the LT series and LS series Chevy engines having been penalized multiple times for being too fast, in an attempt to reign them in.
Lest we forget, the nasty little 66 Chevy II L-79 327/350HP was killing everything Ford had, and in fact the national championship that year came down to Bill Jenkins' 66 Chevy II in A/S and Jere Stahl's 66 Hemi Belvedere, settled by Jenkins' redlight start at the World Finals. Nary a Ford even in the running. And a 327 Chevy going head to head with a 426 Hemi. Go figure.
Now, yes, the Mustang remained "in production", since Ford decided to take what amounted to a Pinto, and do a "skin job". So, for several years, Ford had a "Mustang". Chevrolet, rather than do something of that nature to the Camaro line, hibernated it, since the smog cars of the seventies, while better than the Mustangs of that era, were disappointing at best.
The best years of the Mustang, compared to the Camaro, were the Fox body years. There Ford had a winner. They beat the Camaro handily in cost and ease of modification. Somehow they remain a non factor in Stock and Super Stock, with only a couple of them really fast. And you really don't want to talk road course, either, the Guldstrand prepped Camaros with Traco blueprinted engines ate the prepared mustangs for lunch. But on the street, the Fox body Mustang was a real player in the youth market, it was light, cheap, relatively simple, and the aftermarket loved them.
I'm not a fan of the new Camaro, it's too big and too heavy. Chevy used the design they did because they didn't want to pay a kid who drew a better car. And once again, the car is too expensive. However, there's nothing any of the Ford engines can do to compete without a blower. The modular Ford is not even in the ballpark with the LS series that is now 14 years old, and still uses a cam in the block and rocker arms. You certainly don't want to start comparing what the aftermarket parts on the normally aspirated LS will do with the aftermarket normally aspirated modular series.
Sorry, but the idea of Chevy always trying to play catch up to Ford is patently false. Don't even think about NASCAR, Chevy still has Ford nailed in NASCAR for wins, and winning percentage. Despite NASCAR allowing a Thunderbird coupe in to run in a sedan class, and allowing Ford to continue to use a canted valve engine they had not sold in the U.S. in years, while holding Chevy to a mid sized sedan with an inline valve wedge head engine that was still in production.
Chevrolet still pretty much dominates Stock and Super Stock, with only the "ringers", cars that had to have the rules rewritten in order to compete, being faster. Chevrolet is not now, nor have they ever, had a car that was not a production car, certified for sale to the general public, and meeting all safety and emissions standards, accepted by NHRA for Stock or Super Stock. Ford and Chrysler have been bringing "ringers" for decades. Cars that they had to send out as incomplete for outside assembly. Like the Thunderbolt, built for Ford by Dearborn Steel Tubing, or the Boss 429, built by Kar Kraft or some other outside vendor. No, the Z-11 63 Impala was a factory car, as were all of the L-72 427/425 cars, from the Camaro, to the Chevelle, the Corvette, and even the Impala. Even the ZL-1 Camaro was built right on the assembly line. As was the 67 L-88 Corvette that the Hemi boys in NHRA cried loud enough to get removed from the guide over a techinicality (when they were racing lightweight farmed out 'Cudas and Darts). Nope, not a farmed out ringer in the stable, all production street cars with all safety and emissions equipment. You sure can't say that about ANY 2008 and up Mustang in Stock or Super Stock.
No, Chevy has consistently beaten Ford in various arenas for about 55 years, ever since the 55 Chevy and the first 265 small block V-8 rolled off the line. Parts for that old antique still outsell anything Ford ever produced.
Funny, Ford refused to sign with NHRA, and refused to return to Stock and Super Stock, until NHRA agreed to rewrite the rules and allow the aftermarket built crate motor Mustangs compete in regular Stock classes. And to this day, Ford refuses to issue specs to allow their real production car to race in Stock against other production cars. And you still think Chevy is trying to catch Ford and keep up? Ford won't even race their Mustang you can buy and drive on the street.
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i just got home.....forgot milk, so now running back out....i'll pop a complete answer when i come back.
on one note....the fe mustangs weren't for the smallblock chevys,,,,they were fir tge 396 camaros,,,,,unless that's a small block.........and whenever ford wanted to make the stang faster, they easily did......evidence the original boss302, which took the trans am championship back from the camaro. search the threads...i posted the year by year winnings of ford vs chevy in those races.....it's closer than you think.
oh....nascar....why did they outlaw the 427 SOHC? it couldn't have been 'cause it'd have eaten the chevys for lunch, could it have been? who whined louder? the chevy guys, or the chrysler guys?
what you make out to be only ford getting special treatment due to "not signing" or their teams whining, is in fact again....common among all teams.
i'll get other points when i get back......
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I'll stay with my MOPARS.....been doing so since 1968.
All 3 pony cars have their attributes......I'm just glad muscle is back. Stay tuned....the govt. may change that plan again.
I also remember Chevy and Ford whining about the Hemis in NASCAR. So fingers can be pointed all day long with no clear winner
acknowledged. It is a fun debate though.
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I'll stay with my MOPARS.....been doing so since 1968.
All 3 pony cars have their attributes......I'm just glad muscle is back. Stay tuned....the govt. may change that plan again.
remember i'm a ford nut.
that being said....the challenger is the best looking of the retro cars.
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My MOPAR.....have some mods added, two more to go under the hood. I cruise and will show it when engine bay is done.
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv313/Hajo_01/Phantoms.jpg)
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My MOPAR.....have some mods added, two more to go under the hood. I cruise and will show it when engine bay is done.
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv313/Hajo_01/Phantoms.jpg)
still hasnt hcnaghed much since the originals... gotta love MOPAR.
on a side note, the Mustang is the better of the retro cars.
dodge nut for trucks.... ford fer the sports cars.
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I'll stay with my MOPARS.....been doing so since 1968.
All 3 pony cars have their attributes......I'm just glad muscle is back. Stay tuned....the govt. may change that plan again.
I also remember Chevy and Ford whining about the Hemis in NASCAR. So fingers can be pointed all day long with no clear winner
acknowledged. It is a fun debate though.
your edit...that was my point. some people only look at one side of things. :devil
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The FE (390) Mustang came about in 1967 to beat the new 67 SS 350 Camaro. The 396 Camaro came about to beat the FE Mustang later in the 67 model year (the 396/375 was 4 speed only that year).
NASCAR outlawed the SOHC because they decided to stop the escalation, they also outlawed the OHC Hemi. Funny, the Mustang was never a NASCAR legal platform, but Ford had Kar Kraft shoe horn a Boss 429 in a Mustang and NASCAR accepted the engine, for a while.
Oh, the Boss 302 took the championship back from Chevy? I thought Chevy was always chasing Ford? So much for that idea.
Wrong on the "pay to play" deal. GM was the official truck of NHRA for years, but there were NO trick "not street legal" GM cars allowed in Stock Eliminator. GM has never had a car listed in the NHRA Stock Car Classification Guide that was not certified for street use under federal emissions and safety standards. NONE of the new Cobra Jet Mustangs are legal for street use. They pass neither emissions nor safety standards. NHRA had to rewrite the primary rule for Stock Eliminator to allow the Cobra Jet Mustangs (and the Drag Pack Challengers later) to race in Stock Eliminator. Ford stepped up to become the "official truck", then demanded a rule change. In fact, just for Ford, NHRA now allows Mustangs that Ford never even assembled, or even paid someone else to assemble, to compete in Stock Eliminator. These are cars that no one ever built at all, that are now allowed to compete against cars that came off the assembly line. That's a new one, never happened before in the history of Stock Eliminator.
The new Challenger is the best looking of the three retro cars, and the most faithful to the original. The Camaro is a close 3rd, but not too close, since the Mustang is a distant second.
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still hasnt hcnaghed much since the originals... gotta love MOPAR.
on a side note, the Mustang is the better of the retro cars.
dodge nut for trucks.... ford fer the sports cars.
MasonZ Mustang isn't a sports car....it was at one time about 19641/2 as I remember.
Also would like to mention....that.....I will find the article but there was an article in a major auto mag
I read a few weeks ago....I'll find it a post it. It listed the 10 cars that would be noted in ten years (new cars)
Challenger was on that list. Mustangs nor Camaros were mentioned. Consensus also has it that the
Challenger is the best looking of the three pony cars. I didn't vote...auto lovers did. I'll find the links and post.
Again...beauty is always in the eye of the beholder.
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MasonZ Mustang isn't a sports car....it was at one time about 19641/2 as I remember.
Also would like to mention....that.....I will find the article but there was an article in a major auto mag
I read a few weeks ago....I'll find it a post it. It listed the 10 cars that would be noted in ten years (new cars)
Challenger was on that list. Mustangs nor Camaros were mentioned. Consensus also has it that the
Challenger is the best looking of the three pony cars. I didn't vote...auto lovers did. I'll find the links and post.
Again...beauty is always in the eye of the beholder.
the mustang has never been considered a sports car. if anything, it's closer to that status now, than it used to be.
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the mustang has never been considered a sports car. if anything, it's closer to that status now, than it used to be.
QFT!
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The FE (390) Mustang came about in 1967 to beat the new 67 SS 350 Camaro. The 396 Camaro came about to beat the FE Mustang later in the 67 model year (the 396/375 was 4 speed only that year).
NASCAR outlawed the SOHC because they decided to stop the escalation, they also outlawed the OHC Hemi. Funny, the Mustang was never a NASCAR legal platform, but Ford had Kar Kraft shoe horn a Boss 429 in a Mustang and NASCAR accepted the engine, for a while.
Oh, the Boss 302 took the championship back from Chevy? I thought Chevy was always chasing Ford? So much for that idea.
Wrong on the "pay to play" deal. GM was the official truck of NHRA for years, but there were NO trick "not street legal" GM cars allowed in Stock Eliminator. GM has never had a car listed in the NHRA Stock Car Classification Guide that was not certified for street use under federal emissions and safety standards. NONE of the new Cobra Jet Mustangs are legal for street use. They pass neither emissions nor safety standards. NHRA had to rewrite the primary rule for Stock Eliminator to allow the Cobra Jet Mustangs (and the Drag Pack Challengers later) to race in Stock Eliminator. Ford stepped up to become the "official truck", then demanded a rule change. In fact, just for Ford, NHRA now allows Mustangs that Ford never even assembled, or even paid someone else to assemble, to compete in Stock Eliminator. These are cars that no one ever built at all, that are now allowed to compete against cars that came off the assembly line. That's a new one, never happened before in the history of Stock Eliminator.
The new Challenger is the best looking of the three retro cars, and the most faithful to the original. The Camaro is a close 3rd, but not too close, since the Mustang is a distant second.
so what you're saying, is that chevy couldn't use the 283 to compete with the 289, so they put a 350 in the camaro to beat a lil 289...once again, trying to compete........ford so ford plunked the 390 in the stang.
and yes.....i believe chevy took the trans am championship with that limited edition 302.......to which ford answered with its own limited edition 302....and handed them their butts back. :devil
and so it continues today. chevy seems to feel the need to use cubic inches to compete, yet on the track,.,....and street they're not. well...they are......i mean....someone has to cross the finish line second, right. :neener:
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(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q96/Shuff_photos/IMAG0092.jpg)
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q96/Shuff_photos/front.jpg)
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q96/Shuff_photos/IMAG0152.jpg)
:neener:
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i seldom say a Chevy or GM product is nice... but thats a nice Camaro Shuff
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i seldom say a Chevy or GM product is nice... but thats a nice Camaro Shuff
Thanks..... I bought it for my Daughter last year. Limited Edition Synergy package.
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how old is she?
:noid
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how old is she?
:noid
She is 20 now...... was 19 then.
This is her second car. Her first was a 2004 40 year anniversary mustang in gunmetal grey. :lol I bought the mustang for her when she was 16... she had just recieved her license. Never even put a scratch on it.
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got lucky with her. dont know many drivers that young that wouldnt have a scratch on it, or do something stupid with a car like that.
:salute
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so what you're saying, is that chevy couldn't use the 283 to compete with the 289, so they put a 350 in the camaro to beat a lil 289...once again, trying to compete........ford so ford plunked the 390 in the stang.
and yes.....i believe chevy took the trans am championship with that limited edition 302.......to which ford answered with its own limited edition 302....and handed them their butts back. :devil
and so it continues today. chevy seems to feel the need to use cubic inches to compete, yet on the track,.,....and street they're not. well...they are......i mean....someone has to cross the finish line second, right. :neener:
You're talking trans-am and he's not.
The 283 was available in 1957 with 283hp and 315hp in 1961.
The first windsor with any HP worth talking about was the 260 with 260hp in the early cobras in 1963.
The 289 showed up in 1964 and did not beat the the 1957 chevy 283's 283hp....ever.......but shelby modified a 289 for the 1965 GT350 that ran 306hp..........only 4 years after chevy made a 283 that put out 315hp.
Also...by 1962, chevy was making a 327 with 360hp.
Chevrolet managers were officially against supporting racing.
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and next year the camaro will be updated...and still slower. :devil
in the meantime, here's a pair of street cars. good thing the camaro has that high tech irs, eh? :devil
http://blog.americanmuscle.com/watch-our-2012-boss-302-mustang-vs-a-camaro-ss/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=fbpost6212011camboss
before ya try saying it's biased........that is exactly what is happening on the track, and thus i would imagine at stop light challenges. over 2 seconds faster. the plain old gt would've torn it up too. :neener:
Hmmm, sorry CAP, but what you posted was a comparison done of a purpose-built Mustang vs a 2 year older Camaro, each car driven by a staff member of a Mustang website..... and you claim fair comparison?
Hire unbiased, outside driving talent. Anyone who has ever driven competitively could see the Camaro driver was taking sandbagging to a whole new level. He smoked the Mustang off the line just to make the whole thing look fair, then parked it coming out of turn one. That whole test was a joke. All we need now is a similar test from an equally unbiased Camaro website that shows the test turning out in the opposite manner and the universe will be balanced again. :rofl
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Hmmm, sorry CAP, but what you posted was a comparison done of a purpose-built Mustang vs a 2 year older Camaro, each car driven by a staff member of a Mustang website..... and you claim fair comparison?
Hire unbiased, outside driving talent. Anyone who has ever driven competitively could see the Camaro driver was taking sandbagging to a whole new level. He smoked the Mustang off the line just to make the whole thing look fair, then parked it coming out of turn one. That whole test was a joke. All we need now is a similar test from an equally unbiased Camaro website that shows the test turning out in the opposite manner and the universe will be balanced again. :rofl
ok unbiased.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_1006_2011_mustang_gt_2010_camaro_ss_2010_challenger_srt8_comparison/conclusions.html
well...that's not totally true. motor trend has always given me the impression that they hate american cars(with the exception of the vette)......and if they had to choose an american car, it wouldn't be a ford. so they are somewhat biased....against fords....yet they chose the ford as a winner. you may also note, reading the article, they note that the camaro barley beat the under powered 4.6 stang of it's same year.
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Road and Track (i feel) has always been more of a european / super car magazine.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/comparison/2011-camaro-ss-convertible-vs.-2011-mustang-gt-convertible
Hmmm, sorry CAP, but what you posted was a comparison done of a purpose-built Mustang vs a 2 year older Camaro, each car driven by a staff member of a Mustang website..... and you claim fair comparison?
Hire unbiased, outside driving talent. Anyone who has ever driven competitively could see the Camaro driver was taking sandbagging to a whole new level. He smoked the Mustang off the line just to make the whole thing look fair, then parked it coming out of turn one. That whole test was a joke. All we need now is a similar test from an equally unbiased Camaro website that shows the test turning out in the opposite manner and the universe will be balanced again. :rofl
i dont mean to be on CAP's ankle.
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True....Motor Trend has some of the worst testing ever.
Partial list of motor trend cars of the year.
- 1971 chevrolet vega
- 1974 ford mustang II
- 1975 Chevrolet Monza
- 1976 Chrysler, Dodge Aspen/Plymouth Volare
- 1978 Dodge Omni/Horizon
- 1980 Chevy Citation
- 1983 Renault Alliance
- 1988 Pontiac Grand Prix
- 1995 Chrysler Cirrus
- 1996 Dodge Caravan......I had more customers needing help with these than any other car.
All magazines are biased.
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Road and Track (i feel) has always been more of a european / super car magazine.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/comparison/2011-camaro-ss-convertible-vs.-2011-mustang-gt-convertible
i dont mean to be on CAP's ankle.
no problem...........
here's motor trend's test of 6 cylinders.......hhmmmm.....wo nder which one won? :neener:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1102_2011_chevrolet_camaro_vs_dodge_challenger_vs_ford_mustang_vs_hyundai_genesis_coupe_v_6_comparison/index.html
it's ok though....i know they're clamoring over there at chevy to make somethign that might equal it. pretty sad that it lost so poorly to a hyundai though. :rofl
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You're talking trans-am and he's not.
The 283 was available in 1957 with 283hp and 315hp in 1961.
The first windsor with any HP worth talking about was the 260 with 260hp in the early cobras in 1963.
The 289 showed up in 1964 and did not beat the the 1957 chevy 283's 283hp....ever.......but shelby modified a 289 for the 1965 GT350 that ran 306hp..........only 4 years after chevy made a 283 that put out 315hp.
Also...by 1962, chevy was making a 327 with 360hp.
Chevrolet managers were officially against supporting racing.
Sorry icepack, but the horsepower ratings game, back in the 50's and 60's, was more marketing than reality. It was not until 1972 that most of the previous loopholes, for tweaking the numbers was closed and a switch from gross HP to net HP was made. It would be 2005 before all the loopholes would be closed.
Take the 67 Impala 396, rated at 325HP. In reality it was closer to 220HP. The old marketing HP numbers really do not mean anything today.
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ok unbiased.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_1006_2011_mustang_gt_2010_camaro_ss_2010_challenger_srt8_comparison/conclusions.html
well...that's not totally true. motor trend has always given me the impression that they hate american cars(with the exception of the vette)......and if they had to choose an american car, it wouldn't be a ford. so they are somewhat biased....against fords....yet they chose the ford as a winner. you may also note, reading the article, they note that the camaro barley beat the under powered 4.6 stang of it's same year.
I don't really take any position on the Mustang vs Camaro debate, actually, just pointing out the obvious silliness of that test. I watched the video through to the end but it became apparent by turn 2 that the Camaro driver intentionally lifted and allowed the Mustang to pass, then fell in behind him. I don't dispute the Mustang in either GT or Boss 302 flavor is a sweet ride, and easily the Camaro SS's match in many ways. As always, it will come down to driver, and track.
If I were going to spend that kind of green, however, I'd just pick up a used Z06, add a few mods, crush Mustangs and Camaros, and be done with it. :devil
If I wanted something with back seats I'd buy a sedan. The CTS-V's are nice, I hear! :t
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Sorry icepack, but the horsepower ratings game, back in the 50's and 60's, was more marketing than reality. It was not until 1972 that most of the previous loopholes, for tweaking the numbers was closed and a switch from gross HP to net HP was made. It would be 2005 before all the loopholes would be closed.
Take the 67 Impala 396, rated at 325HP. In reality it was closer to 220HP. The old marketing HP numbers really do not mean anything today.
I'll let someone else comment in the interest of not having my posts disappear.
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So those 13 second muscle cars really didn't exist?
he isnt saying the cars never existed, hes saying the horse power was more for the marketing.. those that want to run fast like bigger numbers in the HP/ft.LB. torque, no?
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Actually the reverse was true.
The auto companies routinely underreported horsepower because of the insurance companies.
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no problem...........
here's motor trend's test of 6 cylinders.......hhmmmm.....wo nder which one won? :neener:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1102_2011_chevrolet_camaro_vs_dodge_challenger_vs_ford_mustang_vs_hyundai_genesis_coupe_v_6_comparison/index.html
it's ok though....i know they're clamoring over there at chevy to make somethign that might equal it. pretty sad that it lost so poorly to a hyundai though. :rofl
The v6 Camaro lost to the Hyundai just as badly as the Mustang V6 lost to the Hyundai, in performance numbers..... they just caught so much heat for choosing the Hyundai over the Mustang in the previous test they figured they'd better no make that mistake again! :rofl
They even admitted as such.. the Genesis coupe outperformed the Mustang in all categories, but they gave the Mustang "first place" based on "cool factor" and style. :rofl :rofl
Funny thing is if I were choosing between one of those four cars right now I'd pick the Hyundai before any of those three in a heartbeat.
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I don't really take any position on the Mustang vs Camaro debate, actually, just pointing out the obvious silliness of that test. I watched the video through to the end but it became apparent by turn 2 that the Camaro driver intentionally lifted and allowed the Mustang to pass, then fell in behind him. I don't dispute the Mustang in either GT or Boss 302 flavor is a sweet ride, and easily the Camaro SS's match in many ways. As always, it will come down to driver, and track.
If I were going to spend that kind of green, however, I'd just pick up a used Z06, add a few mods, crush Mustangs and Camaros, and be done with it. :devil
If I wanted something with back seats I'd buy a sedan. The CTS-V's are nice, I hear! :t
see? if i hadn't watched the mustangs spank the camaros at watkins glen a couple weeks ago, i'd have thought the same thing. the stang easily walked away in the straights, and turns. :devil
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he isnt saying the cars never existed, hes saying the horse power was more for the marketing.. those that want to run fast like bigger numbers in the HP/ft.LB. torque, no?
that, and the majority of the hot rods were well above 13 second 1/4 miles.
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see? if i hadn't watched the mustangs spank the camaros at watkins glen a couple weeks ago, i'd have thought the same thing. the stang easily walked away in the straights, and turns. :devil
So full race prepared cars somehow equate to what the stock street cars do when matched up? Go back and watch that vid you posted again, and tell me what happens from the starting line to half way between turns 1 and 2..... :huh
Saying that those race results reflect what you can get out of the "consumer variety" is like me saying mid 80's Honda CRX's are faster than '80's V8 Camaros and Mustangs from the factory just 'cause I used to smoke most of the American Sedan (Stangs and Camaros, in a slightly hotter than "showroom stock" level of prep) field in my ITB class CRX. Heck, there were plenty of days my best lap time was faster than most of ITA and ITS, which was made up of Mazda RX7's, BMW 325i's, 240Z's... :rofl
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Actually the reverse was true.
The auto companies routinely underreported horsepower because of the insurance companies.
that onlyu started ion late 60's
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So full race prepared cars somehow equate to what the stock street cars do when matched up? Go back and watch that vid you posted again, and tell me what happens from the starting line to half way between turns 1 and 2..... :huh
Saying that those race results reflect what you can get out of the "consumer variety" is like me saying mid 80's Honda CRX's are faster than '80's V8 Camaros and Mustangs from the factory just 'cause I used to smoke most of the American Sedan (Stangs and Camaros, in a slightly hotter than "showroom stock" level of prep) field in my ITB class CRX. Heck, there were plenty of days my best lap time was faster than most of ITA and ITS, which was made up of Mazda RX7's, BMW 325i's, 240Z's... :rofl
when the boss 302 there is the boss 302 i can buy for 47k..............
in a couple of weeks, they run at laguna. it'll be interesting to see how the boss perofrms, now that beemer's had a chance to change their stuff.......
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when the boss 302 there is the boss 302 i can buy for 47k..............
in a couple of weeks, they run at laguna. it'll be interesting to see how the boss perofrms, now that beemer's had a chance to change their stuff.......
What series are you referring to? Grand-Am, or whatever they're calling it now? World Challenge?
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What series are you referring to? Grand-Am, or whatever they're calling it now? World Challenge?
it's the continental tire challenge series. out of 6 races so far this season, it's mustang 3, bmw 3. camaro has yet to win one.
i gotta admit though....ford does have an advantage over chevy in that one.......they were runing the 5 liter engine in 2010....that was their proving ground, before they put it in a street car. :aok
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when the boss 302 there is the boss 302 i can buy for 47k..............
continental tire challenge series.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
I figured you were talking about that series, and sorry, NO, you're not going to any Ford dealership and buying a Boss 302 that would do anything but get lapped viciously in one of those races. They started off as production cars (most of them "bodies in white" from the factory, stripped down production car shells and rolling chassis' ready to be built into race cars), but are rebuilt from the ground up as race cars. You will not find stock, unmodified engines, brakes, shocks, springs, gearboxes, rear ends, etc in any of those cars. Those guys use custom valved shocks (not Ford stuff), custom springs (not Ford stuff), build the engines to 10/10ths of what the rules allow, custom FD ratios depending on track, etc etc etc.
I figure with about $100 grand you could make a "fresh from the factory" Boss 302 competitive...... but it ain't gonna be the same car you bought for $47K. :)
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:rofl :rofl :rofl
I figured you were talking about that series, and sorry, NO, you're not going to any Ford dealership and buying a Boss 302 that would do anything but get lapped viciously in one of those races. They started off as production cars (most of them "bodies in white" from the factory, stripped down production car shells and rolling chassis' ready to be built into race cars), but are rebuilt from the ground up as race cars. You will not find stock, unmodified engines, brakes, shocks, springs, gearboxes, rear ends, etc in any of those cars. Those guys use custom valved shocks (not Ford stuff), custom springs (not Ford stuff), build the engines to 10/10ths of what the rules allow, custom FD ratios depending on track, etc etc etc.
I figure with about $100 grand you could make a "fresh from the factory" Boss 302 competitive...... but it ain't gonna be the same car you bought for $47K. :)
you're both right and wrong. more like 80k. :aok
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1040900_the-boss-is-back-2011-ford-mustang-boss-302r-race-package
ih yea....it's limited production.......
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you're both right and wrong. more like 80k. :aok
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1040900_the-boss-is-back-2011-ford-mustang-boss-302r-race-package
And you think that car will be competitive in the Continental Tire Challenge series as delivered for $79,900? And that the guys running at the front are running the same shock valving and spring rates at every track, the same FD ratios, and they haven't spent tens of thousands on testing? I'd bet just the spare parts they carry from track to track to set-up and tune the car for each race is worth as much as a new Boss 302 street car.
Rule of thumb, take the cost of the car, multiply it by 2 or 3 to make it fast enough to win with the right driver, multiply that by 10 to do it for a whole season.
You know how to make a small fortune in racing? Start with a huge one! (As told to me by a crew chief for a World Challenge Porsche team during my brief stint crewing for a fiend of mine when he ran his Corvette in World Challenge GT in the late '90's).
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ih yea....it's limited production.......
And it's also not street legal so, no, it ain't "consumer variety" or in any way, shape, or form the same Boss 302 you'd buy for $47K :D
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And it's also not street legal so, no, it ain't "consumer variety" or in any way, shape, or form the same Boss 302 you'd buy for $47K :D
yea...i didn't say that one was.
it's ok though. i know you're stirring......and at least for me it is good......this is a fun argument. at least for me it is. even if the camaro really was faster or quicker, it'd be fun to argue this.
at least the camaro guys can say that it beat the 2010 and older stangs. :devil
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:lol
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yea...i didn't say that one was.
it's ok though. i know you're stirring......and at least for me it is good......this is a fun argument. at least for me it is. even if the camaro really was faster or quicker, it'd be fun to argue this.
at least the camaro guys can say that it beat the 2010 and older stangs. :devil
Yup for one short year mustang has a bit more HP. Folks are not buying them but hey... that does not matter. :D
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Yup for one short year mustang has a bit more HP. Folks are not buying them but hey... that does not matter. :D
'cause they can't get them. so they go to second best. :D
EDIT>>>>>>
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1051784_2012-boss-mustang-track-key-detailed
Available through Ford dealers, the Track Key adds Ford's TracMode powertrain control software. The software gives the car full race calibration and two-stage launch control without negatively affecting the warranty.
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Actually the reverse was true.
The auto companies routinely underreported horsepower because of the insurance companies.
That practice did not start until the mid-60's and it was mostly with the big block engines in order to stay off insurance costs.
The HP numbers were still being reported as gross and not net values making any type of comparison to today invalid.
From 2005, and onward, you can compare all the HP numbers you like from any American made car and those would be valid comparisons, as those numbers are pretty accurate. From 1972 to 2005, they are somewhat close. From 1972 and back, they are meaningless marketing numbers. Underrated, overrated, gross rated...does not matter how it was rated, they were not accurate at all.
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That practice did not start until the mid-60's and it was mostly with the big block engines in order to stay off insurance costs.
The HP numbers were still being reported as gross and not net values making any type of comparison to today invalid.
From 2005, and onward, you can compare all the HP numbers you like from any American made car and those would be valid comparisons, as those numbers are pretty accurate. From 1972 to 2005, they are somewhat close. From 1972 and back, they are meaningless marketing numbers. Underrated, overrated, gross rated...does not matter how it was rated, they were not accurate at all.
i believe top gear caught ford lieing about the 2005 mustang gt500 aswell.
they did a dyno test on it, came to about only 427hp instead of the 500 it was claiming.
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So full race prepared cars somehow equate to what the stock street cars do when matched up? Go back and watch that vid you posted again, and tell me what happens from the starting line to half way between turns 1 and 2..... :huh
Saying that those race results reflect what you can get out of the "consumer variety" is like me saying mid 80's Honda CRX's are faster than '80's V8 Camaros and Mustangs from the factory just 'cause I used to smoke most of the American Sedan (Stangs and Camaros, in a slightly hotter than "showroom stock" level of prep) field in my ITB class CRX. Heck, there were plenty of days my best lap time was faster than most of ITA and ITS, which was made up of Mazda RX7's, BMW 325i's, 240Z's... :rofl
Tough challenge racing a ITB legal crx vs the bmw 2002s, turismo tc-3, and the volvos in ITB.
Probably harder than being competitive in ITA with the CRX-SI.
You won't see any ITB mixing lap times with the ITA and ITS guys in SEdiv or NEdiv.
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Tough challenge racing a ITB legal crx vs the bmw 2002s, turismo tc-3, and the volvos in ITB.
Probably harder than being competitive in ITA with the CRX-SI.
You won't see any ITB mixing lap times with the ITA and ITS guys in SEdiv or NEdiv.
:headscratch:
I won the ITB SEdiv championship in 2006 in that CRX, and was regularly qualifying and starting ahead of 2/3 of the ITA field and most of the IT7 guys, and probably half of the ITS guys, especially at CMP. Most of the time at Roebling and Road Atlanta we were in different run groups. At Rockingham only 2 ITA and 1 IT7 outqualified me, out of a combined run group of about 30 cars (ITA, IT7, ITB, ITC), started 4th overall and finished 5th IIRC.
Ask David Liera (ITB 2005 SEdiv champ from Miami) about my CRX. :D
The Volvos always ate me alive at Road Atlanta due to the long straights, but on the tighter courses the CRX Si is a very competitive car in B. That being said, my car had everything that you could have on an 87 CRX Si... Housemann 4.93 FD, Mugen LSD, Koni double adjustable shocks, 29mm torsion bars up front, OPM Autosports engine, custom race header, etc.
If there aren't B cars mixing it up with the mid pack ITA and ITS guys either B has gotten a lot slower since 2006/7 or ITS and ITA have gotten a lot faster in the SEdiv. :aok
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'cause they can't get them. so they go to second best. :D
EDIT>>>>>>
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1051784_2012-boss-mustang-track-key-detailed
Available through Ford dealers, the Track Key adds Ford's TracMode powertrain control software. The software gives the car full race calibration and two-stage launch control without negatively affecting the warranty.
Only the V6 is in shortage. The rest .... not enough demand to keep that one facility open.... possibly
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so what you're saying, is that chevy couldn't use the 283 to compete with the 289, so they put a 350 in the camaro to beat a lil 289...once again, trying to compete........ford so ford plunked the 390 in the stang.
and yes.....i believe chevy took the trans am championship with that limited edition 302.......to which ford answered with its own limited edition 302....and handed them their butts back. :devil
and so it continues today. chevy seems to feel the need to use cubic inches to compete, yet on the track,.,....and street they're not. well...they are......i mean....someone has to cross the finish line second, right. :neener:
No, actually what I'm saying is that the 283 had long since been relegated to economy duties, since 1962 and the advent of the 327. And the base 327 4V Camaro would stomp the top of the line 289 4V Mustang in 67. Hence Ford produced the 390 Mustang, which was immediately trounced soundly by the 396 Camaro. Then Ford produced the 428 Mustang, which also got beaten soundly by the 396 Camaro. Of course, then the Camaro got a 427 in 1969, leaving Ford crying yet again. My 64 Impala 409 would easily beat the neighbor's 68 428 SCJ Mach 1. In fact, he blew up 3 428's trying to beat the 409.
The 302 Z/28 was never a limited edition engine. The 302 Boss was never produced anywhere near as long as the 302 Chevy, or in anywhere near the numbers. Further, the 302 Boss sucks on the street, and the 302 Chevy is still winning at the track. The two fastest 302 powered Stock Eliminator cars are the two Camaros of Duzac and Peterson, and the Wentzel brothers. The same 67 Z/28 that won Indy in 1967, Ben Wentzel's car, won a national event again last year.
Again, the ONLY Fords doing well these days in Stock or Super Stock are the "Roush" Cobra Jets, with bogus HP factors and superchargers. Proving yet again Ford can't build a winner in house, they have to farm it out, and they have to pay to get the rules changed. So it continues today, Ford buying wins and needing blowers to get there.
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i believe top gear caught ford lieing about the 2005 mustang gt500 aswell.
they did a dyno test on it, came to about only 427hp instead of the 500 it was claiming.
Unless they used the dyno Ford used, the results are moot. Every dyno reads slightly differently, and between manufacturers, they can be very different.
Dynos have to be setup. What SAE settings did the Top Gear dyno use? Was that published?
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Unless they used the dyno Ford used, the results are moot. Every dyno reads slightly differently, and between manufacturers, they can be very different.
Dynos have to be setup. What SAE settings did the Top Gear dyno use? Was that published?
Exactly. A dyno can say anything you want it to say. I've been operating dynos for 20 years, you can play all sorts of games with calibration and correction factors. Even identical dynos will read different in different locations, as no correction factor is perfect. The first thing to look at on a dyno sheet is the weather conditions and the correction factor used.
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Unless they used the dyno Ford used, the results are moot. Every dyno reads slightly differently, and between manufacturers, they can be very different.
Dynos have to be setup. What SAE settings did the Top Gear dyno use? Was that published?
Also rear wheel hp vs at the crank.
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i believe top gear caught ford lieing about the 2005 mustang gt500 aswell.
they did a dyno test on it, came to about only 427hp instead of the 500 it was claiming.
they probably did rwhp.
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Our dyno dynamics twin retarder good for 2400hp and over 200mph is called "the dream crusher".
It's dead accurate and, for some reason, the figures we see are far less than what our customers were told by the previous shop.........this includes Ligenfelter, Underground Racing, and Hennessey.
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No, actually what I'm saying is that the 283 had long since been relegated to economy duties, since 1962 and the advent of the 327. And the base 327 4V Camaro would stomp the top of the line 289 4V Mustang in 67. Hence Ford produced the 390 Mustang, which was immediately trounced soundly by the 396 Camaro. Then Ford produced the 428 Mustang, which also got beaten soundly by the 396 Camaro. Of course, then the Camaro got a 427 in 1969, leaving Ford crying yet again. My 64 Impala 409 would easily beat the neighbor's 68 428 SCJ Mach 1. In fact, he blew up 3 428's trying to beat the 409.
The 302 Z/28 was never a limited edition engine. The 302 Boss was never produced anywhere near as long as the 302 Chevy, or in anywhere near the numbers. Further, the 302 Boss sucks on the street, and the 302 Chevy is still winning at the track. The two fastest 302 powered Stock Eliminator cars are the two Camaros of Duzac and Peterson, and the Wentzel brothers. The same 67 Z/28 that won Indy in 1967, Ben Wentzel's car, won a national event again last year.
Again, the ONLY Fords doing well these days in Stock or Super Stock are the "Roush" Cobra Jets, with bogus HP factors and superchargers. Proving yet again Ford can't build a winner in house, they have to farm it out, and they have to pay to get the rules changed. So it continues today, Ford buying wins and needing blowers to get there.
68 ss396= 1/4 in 15.0
68 390 stang= 1/4 in 15.0.
yep...that's hammering them all right.
rgw 428 was running 13.9's in street trim, and 11'2's in track trim. i give chevy credit for their 69 427's being almost a half second quicker. but again.....late to the table. :aok
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Unless they used the dyno Ford used, the results are moot. Every dyno reads slightly differently, and between manufacturers, they can be very different.
Dynos have to be setup. What SAE settings did the Top Gear dyno use? Was that published?
my apologies i got that wrong.
they were dyno testing the older 60's gt500's to a 2005 gt500. basically a mustang comparison.
they found that the older 60's gt500 was the one who had only 428hp. and the 2005 gt500 was only registering 492hp.
it was a video presentation, currently searching for it on youtube (saw the original vid back in 07) will post once i find it <S>
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my apologies i got that wrong.
they were dyno testing the older 60's gt500's to a 2005 gt500. basically a mustang comparison.
they found that the older 60's gt500 was the one who had only 428hp. and the 2005 gt500 was only registering 492hp.
it was a video presentation, currently searching for it on youtube (saw the original vid back in 07) will post once i find it <S>
no, they didn't. they dyno tested a 2008 gt500(i think it was an 08). not nearly as powerful as the current shelbys. the other mustang they ran on the dyno that episode, was the hampsters personal car. a 68 gt390.
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no, they didn't. they dyno tested a 2008 gt500(i think it was an 08). not nearly as powerful as the current shelbys. the other mustang they ran on the dyno that episode, was the hampsters personal car. a 68 gt390.
you sure we're thinking of the same episode? could of sworn it was a 2005 gt500 vs a 68 gt500
(i could be wrong tho, seeing how i havent seen that video again since 07)
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you sure we're thinking of the same episode? could of sworn it was a 2005 gt500 vs a 68 gt500
(i could be wrong tho, seeing how i havent seen that video again since 07)
i've never seen top gear test a 68 gt500......but it could be an episode i missed.
are you talking about the episode where hampster calls the stangs rear "a great whacking girder with a wheel at each end"? if so, then it's his car in there.....
this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O46E0gCF5os
just for poops n giggles, i'm on chevy's website right now, building my own camaro. well....i just did it. for one as close as i can get it to the equilivent stang, it's looking like 35, 270. then it says "We have found 48 Camaro Coupe 2SS in your area."
the stang, with hid lights optioned in, 3.73 rear optioned in, looks like 34,345. wanna know how many are in my area in stock? 5. 2 of those 5 are shelby gt500's, right up the street from my shop. wish i had 55k.
i wanted to do 2012, but the chevy website defaulted to 2011,,,,,so i did that with the ford too.
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i've never seen top gear test a 68 gt500......but it could be an episode i missed.
are you talking about the episode where hampster calls the stangs rear "a great whacking girder with a wheel at each end"? if so, then it's his car in there.....
this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O46E0gCF5os
just for poops n giggles, i'm on chevy's website right now, building my own camaro. well....i just did it. for one as close as i can get it to the equilivent stang, it's looking like 35, 270. then it says "We have found 48 Camaro Coupe 2SS in your area."
the stang, with hid lights optioned in, 3.73 rear optioned in, looks like 34,345. wanna know how many are in my area in stock? 5. 2 of those 5 are shelby gt500's, right up the street from my shop. wish i had 55k.
i wanted to do 2012, but the chevy website defaulted to 2011,,,,,so i did that with the ford too.
:cheers: Ford better worry!
Oh back to the OP:
Breakdown by Model – (Total 2011 Mustang Production – 68,650):
Mustang V6 coupe – 27,557 (damn, they sure didn't sell many of these.....)
Mustang V6 convertible – 9,645
Mustang GT coupe – 21,296
Mustang GT convertible – 5,126
Shelby GT500 coupe – 4,094
Shelby GT500 convertible – 932
......it's also Made in the US.
Shuffler, do you REALLY think that:
A. The Mustang is going away?
B. Auto Alliance is closing, or even REMOTELY close to closing?
C. Ford is worried about Chevy being a year behind?
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hhmmmmmmmmm..................
Ford's goal for the Boss was to beat a certain Bavarian around Laguna, but that was easy. We proved the regular GT was just a tick off the pace of the M3 in our October 2010 cover story. What Ford has done is much more; this is hands-down the best Mustang it has ever produced, and we tip our hats for not wimping out with merely a sticker-and-wing package. So who's next on the challenge list? Good question. While the new Camaro ZL1 has improved suspension and a lot more power, we don't think it stands a chance against this Boss on a racetrack. But we look forward to finding out.
Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1102_2012_ford_mustang_boss_302_test/interior.html#ixzz1QA4ZFTv2
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68 ss396= 1/4 in 15.0
68 390 stang= 1/4 in 15.0.
yep...that's hammering them all right.
rgw 428 was running 13.9's in street trim, and 11'2's in track trim. i give chevy credit for their 69 427's being almost a half second quicker. but again.....late to the table. :aok
I've been racing for decades, I've never seen an FE Mustang even come close to beating a 396/375 Camaro, not in anything even close to stock trim or original condition, there's never been a 390 that was even close to a 396/375, maybe a 396/325, but even the 396/350 was faster than the 390. Like I said, my 3900# Impala 409 stomped the 428 SCJ Mustang, with ease, and I couldn't keep up with the 396/375 Camaro, and the dirt cheap 396/375 Nova was even faster. The only hope the Mustangs ever had was if the 396 car couldn't get traction. The 390 Mustang was never even a contender, even if Steve McQueen made one look really good in Bullit.
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Back to the First Post.
Maybe Ford should take about 10 years off so the Camaro can approach the 8.5 million (closer to 8.9 million) "Stock Factory Produced Mustangs" built (Camaro's just went past 5 million). They only need around 4 million to catch up.
Maybe in those 10 years, GM can move the Assembly Plant back to the US as well.
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I've been racing for decades, I've never seen an FE Mustang even come close to beating a 396/375 Camaro, not in anything even close to stock trim or original condition, there's never been a 390 that was even close to a 396/375, maybe a 396/325, but even the 396/350 was faster than the 390. Like I said, my 3900# Impala 409 stomped the 428 SCJ Mustang, with ease, and I couldn't keep up with the 396/375 Camaro, and the dirt cheap 396/375 Nova was even faster. The only hope the Mustangs ever had was if the 396 car couldn't get traction. The 390 Mustang was never even a contender, even if Steve McQueen made one look really good in Bullit.
i've driven a couple 409 impalas. we nick named them "limpala" they were that exciting.
steve mcqueen didn't make the mustang look good. it already did. they held the charger back, so he could stay close though. it was faster. i can't remember if it was a 383 ot 440 car......
and look at the numbers. 15 second 1/4 mile? :rofl
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Back to the First Post.
Maybe Ford should take about 10 years off so the Camaro can approach the 8.5 million (closer to 8.9 million) "Stock Factory Produced Mustangs" built (Camaro's just went past 5 million). They only need around 4 million to catch up.
Maybe in those 10 years, GM can move the Assembly Plant back to the US as well.
that would be a plus.....and i DO mean that.
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:cheers: Ford better worry!
Oh back to the OP:
Breakdown by Model – (Total 2011 Mustang Production – 68,650):
Mustang V6 coupe – 27,557 (damn, they sure didn't sell many of these.....)
Mustang V6 convertible – 9,645
Mustang GT coupe – 21,296
Mustang GT convertible – 5,126
Shelby GT500 coupe – 4,094
Shelby GT500 convertible – 932
......it's also Made in the US.
Shuffler, do you REALLY think that:
A. The Mustang is going away?
B. Auto Alliance is closing, or even REMOTELY close to closing?
C. Ford is worried about Chevy being a year behind?
I brought the magazine artical to the table.... you tell me. Sales are really down.
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Back to the First Post.
Maybe Ford should take about 10 years off so the Camaro can approach the 8.5 million (closer to 8.9 million) "Stock Factory Produced Mustangs" built (Camaro's just went past 5 million). They only need around 4 million to catch up.
Maybe in those 10 years, GM can move the Assembly Plant back to the US as well.
Plant is in Canada... North America
Your right.... maybe ford should mothball mustang.... after all it was the only show available for some time. That is why they had those sales. Even my daughter had a mustang till something much better was available,
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Better? That like most car "spirited discussions" are extremely subjective. I've driven the 2010 and 2012 Camaro SS, the 2012 Mustang V6 and GT and the 2011 Challenger. I had my pick of the lot and I went with the Mustang Convertible V6 Mustang. It's basically 2010 GT power in a 30+mpg package which fits my needs great.
To my eye the Challenger is the best looking of the lot hands down. It's also a freaking boat. It's a muscle car in driving and handling and just not what I was looking for. It was a lot of fun in a straight line, has a sexy body and plenty of power in it's big ol V8
The Camaro was fun to drive in certain situations, the HUD is neat, the handling is quite good and the power is definitely there. I didn't find that I truly enjoyed driving it however. You (I) can't see well out of it and it wasn't a pleasant car on the freeway in that regard. I think wringing it around a road course would be a great time and it certainly had some straight line pep though not as much as the Corvettes I'm a bigger fan of. That's not apples to apples however so I'll leave that there.
The Mustang was everything I wanted it to be. It's a fun car to drive, handles very well, sips fuel and I am very comfortable in it on the freeway as well as winding curvy roads. The newest styling and the lines of the car are definitely paying homage to the classic lines of the 60s cars, moreso than the Camaro IMO and you can see out of the darn things. The dealers can't keep them in stock and I ordered a new 2012 V6 (complete with 6-8 week waiting period) instead of a 2008-2010 GT because it's a better car for the money with the added bonus of being fuel efficient. This helps on my 500mi round trips I'm currently doing in a 2005 Silverado. I actually might agree with you that "sales are down" but only because Ford can't produce enough of the darn things to sell to everyone who wants one. I could buy "a" Mustang. I had to order to get "my" car as have many other buyers.
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i've driven a couple 409 impalas. we nick named them "limpala" they were that exciting.
steve mcqueen didn't make the mustang look good. it already did. they held the charger back, so he could stay close though. it was faster. i can't remember if it was a 383 ot 440 car......
and look at the numbers. 15 second 1/4 mile? :rofl
the charger was a 440.
i still say the charger was, and still is the best muscle car ever made ;)
the new charger has that same intimidating look the 06 model did, i just wish dodge would stop worring about keeping the muscle sedans alive, and create the charger we all want them too.
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Back to the First Post.
Maybe Ford should take about 10 years off so the Camaro can approach the 8.5 million (closer to 8.9 million) "Stock Factory Produced Mustangs" built (Camaro's just went past 5 million). They only need around 4 million to catch up.
Maybe in those 10 years, GM can move the Assembly Plant back to the US as well.
Just curious, what happens to those numbers when you add Firebirds and Trans Ams to the Camaro's numbers?
<---- knows that when you add Chevy 1500 trucks and GMC 1500 trucks, Chevy sells more trucks than Ford, regardless of what the commercials say..... :aok
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(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/1971HemiCuda.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/44top.jpg)<----10 second from factory
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/0601mopp_17z1969_Dodge_Super_BeeDri.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/112_0804_39z2008_dodge_challenger_srt8vanishing_point_challenger.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/Zona1.jpg)<---mine
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/zona2.jpg)<-----badass
last but not least this car sold for 2.2 million dollars which ford or chevy even comes close to that :neener:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/1971-hemi-cuda-convertible2.jpg)
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Just curious, what happens to those numbers when you add Firebirds and Trans Ams to the Camaro's numbers?
<---- knows that when you add Chevy 1500 trucks and GMC 1500 trucks, Chevy sells more trucks than Ford, regardless of what the commercials say..... :aok
Ok, add a couple of million. However, do we count Capri's for Ford? Wait.....
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I brought the magazine artical to the table.... you tell me. Sales are really down.
The article is nothing but speculation with some BS mixed in.
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the charger was a 440.
i still say the charger was, and still is the best muscle car ever made ;)
Bzzzzt That would be the '71 hemi cuda.
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Plant is in Canada... North America
Your right.... maybe ford should mothball mustang.... after all it was the only show available for some time. That is why they had those sales. Even my daughter had a mustang till something much better was available,
just remember....if you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball.
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Better? That like most car "spirited discussions" are extremely subjective. I've driven the 2010 and 2012 Camaro SS, the 2012 Mustang V6 and GT and the 2011 Challenger. I had my pick of the lot and I went with the Mustang Convertible V6 Mustang. It's basically 2010 GT power in a 30+mpg package which fits my needs great.
To my eye the Challenger is the best looking of the lot hands down. It's also a freaking boat. It's a muscle car in driving and handling and just not what I was looking for. It was a lot of fun in a straight line, has a sexy body and plenty of power in it's big ol V8
The Camaro was fun to drive in certain situations, the HUD is neat, the handling is quite good and the power is definitely there. I didn't find that I truly enjoyed driving it however. You (I) can't see well out of it and it wasn't a pleasant car on the freeway in that regard. I think wringing it around a road course would be a great time and it certainly had some straight line pep though not as much as the Corvettes I'm a bigger fan of. That's not apples to apples however so I'll leave that there.
The Mustang was everything I wanted it to be. It's a fun car to drive, handles very well, sips fuel and I am very comfortable in it on the freeway as well as winding curvy roads. The newest styling and the lines of the car are definitely paying homage to the classic lines of the 60s cars, moreso than the Camaro IMO and you can see out of the darn things. The dealers can't keep them in stock and I ordered a new 2012 V6 (complete with 6-8 week waiting period) instead of a 2008-2010 GT because it's a better car for the money with the added bonus of being fuel efficient. This helps on my 500mi round trips I'm currently doing in a 2005 Silverado. I actually might agree with you that "sales are down" but only because Ford can't produce enough of the darn things to sell to everyone who wants one. I could buy "a" Mustang. I had to order to get "my" car as have many other buyers.
1 month ago, when i did that "build your own" thing on fords website, i could fins nearly 50 in ford dealerships near me. as of last night, i could find 5. 2 of those were gt500's, for 55k. in the last week, i've seen 3 go past my shop with window stickers in em, which i presume to have been test drives from the dealer right up the road from me. one of those was driving...uuummm.......spirit edly. :rofl i bet the sales dood was hanging on to the "jesus" handles. :rofl
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the charger was a 440.
i still say the charger was, and still is the best muscle car ever made ;)
the new charger has that same intimidating look the 06 model did, i just wish dodge would stop worring about keeping the muscle sedans alive, and create the charger we all want them too.
the only time i've ever thought that a charger(the new ones) looked intimidating, was when i noticed those red n blue lights hidden behind the grille. other than that, the new chargers are a big fail. the challenger could be so much better than it is........
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Just curious, what happens to those numbers when you add Firebirds and Trans Ams to the Camaro's numbers?
<---- knows that when you add Chevy 1500 trucks and GMC 1500 trucks, Chevy sells more trucks than Ford, regardless of what the commercials say..... :aok
if the firebirds and trans ams had chevy engines in em, i'd lend credence to that argument.
my personal taste in trucks has been that i like chevys. my work experience tells me though, that if i'm gonna buy myself a heavy duty truck, or van, i'm buying a ford.
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(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/1971HemiCuda.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/44top.jpg)<----10 second from factory
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/0601mopp_17z1969_Dodge_Super_BeeDri.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/112_0804_39z2008_dodge_challenger_srt8vanishing_point_challenger.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/Zona1.jpg)<---mine
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/zona2.jpg)<-----badass
last but not least this car sold for 2.2 million dollars which ford or chevy even comes close to that :neener:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/1971-hemi-cuda-convertible2.jpg)
that yellow car.....there's one sitting in a guys driveway....been there for at least 3 years, without moving. ever. looks in decent shape from the road.....
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Ok, add a couple of million. However, do we count Capri's for Ford? Wait.....
cougers, and capris had ford engines in them.....so if we wanted to play their game, we could add them. firebirds had pontiac, and later oldsmobile engines in em. didn't they toss buick engines in them too?
i guess we could give them a few more, from the beginning of the canadian era firebirds though.
btw,.......from my experience with 60's camaro and firebirds.......i'd take the pontiac torque over chevy hands down.
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i've driven a couple 409 impalas. we nick named them "limpala" they were that exciting.
steve mcqueen didn't make the mustang look good. it already did. they held the charger back, so he could stay close though. it was faster. i can't remember if it was a 383 ot 440 car......
and look at the numbers. 15 second 1/4 mile? :rofl
You've never driven a real 409 Impala then. The 409 Impala was the main reason Ford had to go to Dearborn Steel Tubing and have them build a Fairlane into a T-Bolt. Pretty much because, as has been the case for decades, Ford needs to hire someone to build them a race car so they can compete with a Chevrolet production car.
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You've never driven a real 409 Impala then. The 409 Impala was the main reason Ford had to go to Dearborn Steel Tubing and have them build a Fairlane into a T-Bolt. Pretty much because, as has been the case for decades, Ford needs to hire someone to build them a race car so they can compete with a Chevrolet production car.
on that argument....i'd say that is their business model. there's a reason or 5 that ford didn't need any money when the govt handed it out. :aok
BTW....keep on dodging. :neener:
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on that argument....i'd say that is their business model. there's a reason or 5 that ford didn't need any money when the govt handed it out. :aok
BTW....keep on dodging. :neener:
Ford didn't need money?? ... hehe they did it was just called something other than a bailout.
-
Hilts,
I've read what you've said and think your right,Steve did make the stang look good..... :D
From the sounds of things we're close in age as I was around to see all those cars back in the day,unfortunately we had a big old Buick wildcat with a 430 4v so it wasnt really a "muscle" car. I have to agree with your assesment,even though I'm a die hard old school ford guy I think Chev put the better cars on the road and from the factory!
Sure the Mopars had the pure grunt but most couldnt put all that torque to the ground,well not with street tires.The chev's were quick,you could get them to hook up easy and most the good engines were tops in class.The clasic 390 vs 396 is the best example,380 had what 335 hp,forgive me Skuzzy,while the econobox 396 was pushing 350hp. And we should all know the 396 was just an updated 409,and tell me how many songs were written about......289's?? :rofl :rofl
So as hard as it is for me to say,in truth, I must agree with Hilts's assesments,and ya the hot cat was the 396 nova,cheap but quick,the impala SS especially the early 64 to 67 models were about the nicest cars on the road.
Now the Polara Hemi was something else,outright brute force but they just couldnt hookup and stay straight.... :x
:salute
-
the only time i've ever thought that a charger(the new ones) looked intimidating, was when i noticed those red n blue lights hidden behind the grille. other than that, the new chargers are a big fail. the challenger could be so much better than it is........
Hate to almost ask, but what happened to the Chargers? I havent seen the few ones law enforcement around here got last year anymore, and similarly they've been dropping like flies off the street when before and not too long ago they were hot cakes.
-
Hate to almost ask, but what happened to the Chargers? I havent seen the few ones law enforcement around here got last year anymore, and similarly they've been dropping like flies off the street when before and not too long ago they were hot cakes.
they're big, fat, ugly, underpowered, and slow.
the njspd have a few of them, along with durangos. for marked cruisers, they still use real cars. :aok
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they're big, fat, ugly, underpowered, and slow.
the njspd have a few of them, along with durangos. for marked cruisers, they still use real cars. :aok
So it's along the lines of what I was thinking, they must of gotten over the new and shiny factor pretty quickly and settled back in with their standard cruisers because they liked them better. I was first thinking it was a serious flaw or defect in them since they seriously suddenly dropped off the streets like flies.
-
So it's along the lines of what I was thinking, they must of gotten over the new and shiny factor pretty quickly and settled back in with their standard cruisers because they liked them better. I was first thinking it was a serious flaw or defect in them since they seriously suddenly dropped off the streets like flies.
in the case of nj, i don't think i've ever seen a marked charger. i think they bought them only for unmarked usage. philly police have quite a few of them gthough.
-
the new 2011 chargers just came out.
you can call em ugly if you want, but you wont find any other car out there with a more intimidating look than the chargers (except maybe the vipers)
-
the new 2011 chargers just came out.
you can call em ugly if you want, but you wont find any other car out there with a more intimidating look than the chargers (except maybe the vipers)
both the camaros, and mustangs are much more intimidating looking.
of course, nothing can top the intimidation factor of a crown vic with blue/red lights comin up in your rear view mirror. :noid
-
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/05/11/2013-ford-taurus-police-interceptor-shows-its-face/
(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2011/05/interceptor-lead.jpg)
:noid
I'll take one please.
-
The 396 is not really a true derivative of the W series engines. Yes, they shame the same basic bore spacing, and the same main bearing spacing. The rocker arms and the valve sizes in the high performance engines are the same. Only the rocker arms and rocker studs actually interchange, although you can use spacers to put a 409 crank in a 427 block (not to be confused with the W series Z-11 427 built in 1963) to destroke it.
And the "mystery motor" is yet another piece, it does not share that much with either the W series or the "rat motor". Yes, a "mystery motor" (outlawed by NASCAR) looks like a "rat motor", but it is not.
However, the W series engines were derived from medium truck engines, namely the original 348. That's the source of the real weakness of the 409 engines, piston and wrist pin weight. Had it not been for those two pieces being insanely heavy, the 409 would have been able to run at an even higher RPM and made far more HP. It's amazing what the 409 did achieve considering it was designed to power 2 ton trucks, and be governed at 4500 RPM.
A 409 has no combustion chamber in the head, the chamber is in the piston, that makes the piston extremely heavy. It does however make the valves unshroud almost instantly when they come off of the seat, which creates massive flow capabilities. Had Chevrolet been able to create a hollow "dome" style forging, and a tool steel wrist pin, the RPM limit of the 409 would have exceeded 7500 instead of being 6500. There's an easy 50HP there, making my old 409-425 (which actually made near 500) a true 525+HP engine.
The 396 was really a "clean sheet of paper" compared to the W series, although it shares some minor similarity. With a canted valve wedge type cylinder head (the most advanced of its time in the US), a forged crank, forged rods, and forged pistons, it was a true race bred piece. The second year of production yielded the 427/425, which was easily as powerful with one 780 Holley as anything Ford could build with 2 600 Holleys.
-
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/05/11/2013-ford-taurus-police-interceptor-shows-its-face/
(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2011/05/interceptor-lead.jpg)
:noid
I'll take one please.
Looks like what would happen if a Cylon raped an Imperial Storm Trooper.
-
the blonde cylon is pretty hot. :noid
number 6 i believe
-
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/1971HemiCuda.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/44top.jpg)<----10 second from factory
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/0601mopp_17z1969_Dodge_Super_BeeDri.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/112_0804_39z2008_dodge_challenger_srt8vanishing_point_challenger.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/Zona1.jpg)<---mine
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/zona2.jpg)<-----badass
last but not least this car sold for 2.2 million dollars which ford or chevy even comes close to that :neener:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/1971-hemi-cuda-convertible2.jpg)
WTG Ink!
-
the blonde cylon is pretty hot. :noid
number 6 i believe
That would be "borg", and her name was "Seven if Nine".
-
That would be "borg", and her name was "Seven if Nine".
she's hot too. but on the new bsg.........human looking cyons. number 6 is a tall gorgeous blonde. :aok
-
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/05/11/2013-ford-taurus-police-interceptor-shows-its-face/
(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2011/05/interceptor-lead.jpg)
:noid
I'll take one please.
Woah, those actually do look a lot better. No more supped up gramps-mobile for them.
Looks like what would happen if a Cylon raped an Imperial Storm Trooper.
I think I will be quoting you on this, sir, many many times in the near future. :rofl :aok
-
WTG Ink!
MOPAR OR NOCAR :D
Move Over Pentastar Approaching Rapidly :rock
-
Pardon me but...........
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv313/Hajo_01/moparbabescopy.jpg)
Just having some fun gents. Stirring the pot so to speak. But splains my loyalty as yours is to Ford and Chevy.
Btw.....I've owned GM muscle also.....later years of course 70s'. Nothing to me compared to the MOPAR
muscle I've owned. Again....personal choice.....as is everyone elses. The debate could rage forever.
And it will ;)
And Ink is right.....watch out for the new Pentastar!
Oh....and what happened to the Charger? Hm........I read Ford lost a lot of contracts they had previously for Police vehicles.
That is why Chargers have four doors. They were made for that reason. I'm still scratching my head....... why 4 doors ?
They would sell more if they had a 2 door version available.
I also like the numbers of Challengers produced....highest I've seen per year is 40K.
Challengers aren't flooding the market. That will be relevant in years to come.
-
Pardon me but...........
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv313/Hajo_01/moparbabescopy.jpg)
Just having some fun gents. Stirring the pot so to speak. But splains my loyalty as yours is to Ford and Chevy.
Btw.....I've owned GM muscle also.....later years of course 70s'. Nothing to me compared to the MOPAR
muscle I've owned. Again....personal choice.....as is everyone elses. The debate could rage forever.
And it will ;)
And Ink is right.....watch out for the new Pentastar!
Oh....and what happened to the Charger? Hm........I read Ford lost a lot of contracts they had previously for Police vehicles.
That is why Chargers have four doors. They were made for that reason. I'm still scratching my head....... why 4 doors ?
They would sell more if they had a 2 door version available.
I also like the numbers of Challengers produced....highest I've seen per year is 40K.
Challengers aren't flooding the market. That will be relevant in years to come.
Hmmm, without casting the Charger in a poor light, but that sounds more like a corporate-level trick to keep its future resale values very high, arguabley much higher than its competitiors not limiting a production run on their models... seems a little dirty.
-
Pardon me but...........
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv313/Hajo_01/moparbabescopy.jpg)
Just having some fun gents. Stirring the pot so to speak. But splains my loyalty as yours is to Ford and Chevy.
Btw.....I've owned GM muscle also.....later years of course 70s'. Nothing to me compared to the MOPAR
muscle I've owned. Again....personal choice.....as is everyone elses. The debate could rage forever.
And it will ;)
And Ink is right.....watch out for the new Pentastar!
Oh....and what happened to the Charger? Hm........I read Ford lost a lot of contracts they had previously for Police vehicles.
That is why Chargers have four doors. They were made for that reason. I'm still scratching my head....... why 4 doors ?
They would sell more if they had a 2 door version available.
I also like the numbers of Challengers produced....highest I've seen per year is 40K.
Challengers aren't flooding the market. That will be relevant in years to come.
they lost contracts to some depts that still want rwd cruisers. like i said.......njspd still uses crown vics for their marked cruisers, as do nearly all the municipalities i drive through/in.
cherry hill nj is getting tauruses on trial. they're getting a few awd turbo toys, and a few of the others.
the ford dealer right down the street from me does about 2/3 of the police/emergency contracts in nj. they're sitting pretty.
that is the only drawback to buying a mustang. there's gonna be lots of em on the road. we're gonna hafta race each other, 'cause pretty much everyone else('cept vette drivers) will more than likely not be willing to enter a race that's already lost before the green. :devil
stir stir stir.
just remember....if you can dodge a car, you can dodge a ball.
-
Hmmm, without casting the Charger in a poor light, but that sounds more like a corporate-level trick to keep its future resale values very high, arguabley much higher than its competitiors not limiting a production run on their models... seems a little dirty.
well, you already know which stangs are gonna be ludicrously expensive in years to come.........
winner ford has 2 gt500's on their lot. wonder if i could convince them to lower their price to about 20k and my geo on trade in.....hell.....i'll even trade in my 68 camaro racer on it. :devil
-
Drips Oil Drops Grease Everywhere
Plus two for the camaro boys:
Italian Re**rd Out Cruising.
Can America Make A Real One
-
Chrysler does NOT purposely hold the numbers down. The Challenger is made in one plant. The same plant that
makes Chargers and 300s. One plant makes 3 models. So fortunately for us MOPAR muscle guys the market won't be flooded
like Camaro and Mustangs'. As I've said in the past and many have also we see more Mustangs and Camaros....usually not
by choice but by availability. Many have ordered 2011 models and are still waiting patiently for theirs'. I had to find the one that
I wanted in Orchard Park NY. I was patient and found what I wanted and did not take what was on the Dealers lot.
Many Dodge dealers get very few Challengers. And of course some get a few more then others. The popularity has made the
prices what they are.....many want it but have a problem getting it. That is fortunate for those who have one. I also work for a Chrysler supplier
that gets me a discount on top of any rebate. Since I work for a supplier, that helped a great deal in getting my R/T and what I wanted.
Also some rightly pointed out that some colors are now not available due to the disaster in Japan where paint pigment is
made for many of the Challenger colors.
-
The 396 is not really a true derivative of the W series engines. Yes, they shame the same basic bore spacing, and the same main bearing spacing. The rocker arms and the valve sizes in the high performance engines are the same. Only the rocker arms and rocker studs actually interchange, although you can use spacers to put a 409 crank in a 427 block (not to be confused with the W series Z-11 427 built in 1963) to destroke it.
And the "mystery motor" is yet another piece, it does not share that much with either the W series or the "rat motor". Yes, a "mystery motor" (outlawed by NASCAR) looks like a "rat motor", but it is not.
However, the W series engines were derived from medium truck engines, namely the original 348. That's the source of the real weakness of the 409 engines, piston and wrist pin weight. Had it not been for those two pieces being insanely heavy, the 409 would have been able to run at an even higher RPM and made far more HP. It's amazing what the 409 did achieve considering it was designed to power 2 ton trucks, and be governed at 4500 RPM.
A 409 has no combustion chamber in the head, the chamber is in the piston, that makes the piston extremely heavy. It does however make the valves unshroud almost instantly when they come off of the seat, which creates massive flow capabilities. Had Chevrolet been able to create a hollow "dome" style forging, and a tool steel wrist pin, the RPM limit of the 409 would have exceeded 7500 instead of being 6500. There's an easy 50HP there, making my old 409-425 (which actually made near 500) a true 525+HP engine.
The 396 was really a "clean sheet of paper" compared to the W series, although it shares some minor similarity. With a canted valve wedge type cylinder head (the most advanced of its time in the US), a forged crank, forged rods, and forged pistons, it was a true race bred piece. The second year of production yielded the 427/425, which was easily as powerful with one 780 Holley as anything Ford could build with 2 600 Holleys.
Very interesting Hilts,I always thought the 396 wa a reworked 409 with a slightly shorter stroke and those new heads.
I was aware of the lack of combustion chamber in the 409 heads and again thought GM had improved the 409 with these new heads and that the 396 really spected out to 409 inches,of course I admit I dont know as much on the subject as you do but it's fun to remember all those great motors.
In high school we put one of the teachers 69Z28 with the 302 in it on a chassie dyno,the 290 hp that was rated on the air breather was correct,somewhere around 4000/4200 rpm and that little mill would safely rev another 3000 rpm.... :devil
:salute
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No, the 409 has a much shorter stroke. The 409 has a 4.312 bore and a 3.5 stroke, it's a big bore short stroke engine, and if you can update the rod, piston, and wrist pin, you can spin a 409/425 to 7500 and it will make close to 600HP, without any other modifications. The piston weighs near twice what my 427/425 piston weighs in the Camaro. The 396 is 4.094 bore and 3.766 stroke. We race a 427/425 Camaro in Stock, and a 396/375 aluminum head Camaro in Super Stock.
Most people do not know that the deck of a 409 is not 90 degrees to the bore, it is 60 degrees to the bore. You can't even use a ring compressor to put the pistons in, you have to know the secret. I'd actually like to build one for Stock, but the cost of the block, heads, crank, and intake would be as high as a complete fresh 427. It's actually a good combination, but you have to have a lot of money, and most people won't build a stick shift only combination. It would cost near twice what I'll spend building a 69 Chevelle 427/425. I miss the old 409 though, it was seriously nasty, and no one knew what it was.
-
Chrysler does NOT purposely hold the numbers down.
Really? You evidently haven't seen the Drag Pack cars.
-
Drips Oil Drops Grease Everywhere
Plus two for the camaro boys:
Italian Re**rd Out Cruising.
Can America Make A Real One
oh my!!
i'd heard the iroc one almost since they came out with those pos's.......never heard the other one before.
there was one i'd heard, for chevy, starting off with Cheap Heavy,,,,,,but i can't remember the rest.
and for virgil.........number 6.
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/tricia-helfer-as-number-6-on-bsg.jpg)
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Very interesting Hilts,I always thought the 396 wa a reworked 409 with a slightly shorter stroke and those new heads.
I was aware of the lack of combustion chamber in the 409 heads and again thought GM had improved the 409 with these new heads and that the 396 really spected out to 409 inches,of course I admit I dont know as much on the subject as you do but it's fun to remember all those great motors.
In high school we put one of the teachers 69Z28 with the 302 in it on a chassie dyno,the 290 hp that was rated on the air breather was correct,somewhere around 4000/4200 rpm and that little mill would safely rev another 3000 rpm.... :devil
:salute
dude......in high school, i used to pummel the camaro and other chevy guys with my grand parents 71 ford ranch wagon with a 390. was truly amazing what that boat could do. :aok
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Fun discussion :)
I've seen a 289 '65 stang run 9's.
Guy who owned it said it prolly cost about 4 camaro's worth to do it,
but everyone had a camaro.
One of the primary reasons I put together a 440 Duster was there were so many big block chevelles around at the time.
As for the Ford 390/428 motor .. boat anchors all. The heads just plain sucked.
The Ford 427 was a good motor, if you could actually find one.
Same with the Cleveland ..if you actually found one it cost more then a Hemi to build it.
I ran across people now an then that had a 'built' 428 an such
.. short shifted on 'em cause I was so far ahead it was silly to push the rev limit.
Personally I enjoy workin with any motor that can breathe well and is strong enough to stay together doin it.
Useda feel that a 2-bolt main 396 was a contradiction ..even the 'small port' heads flowed great and begged for 7k without major work.
Big port heads, 4 bolt 427 chebbie with enough carb, compression, and cam will scare the *crap* out of most
..it *likes* 7k+ rpm and gets there in a heartbeat.
I useda tell people I spent more time actually shifting than it took for my '64 Malibu to run thru the gears.
Of course that makes my opinions somewhat biased .. I know a lot of the cars I ran against were decent and the owners considered them fast.
There were nights when people cruised after a day at the drags with numbers on their windows an such ..
.. I useda love poppin their cherries hard :)
Nowadays .. I am like a kid in a candy store again .. there are just soo many cool toys
..and once again I am runnin into the guys who think they're fast and they just are not.
Ran the vette thru the first 3 gears hard the other day (albeit a bit slower than I useda) after spendin the last month or so gettin used to it ..
..oohh yaa .. it feels *great* to see a fender fade to the rear because he thought he had some on this old guy -evil grin-
ya .. got a 5 year plan in place, we will see how it goes
.. people tellin me the vette will do mid 13's out at Speedworld provided I dont miss a gear .. we will see :)
-GE aka Frank
-
Fun discussion :)
I've seen a 289 '65 stang run 9's.
Guy who owned it said it prolly cost about 4 camaro's worth to do it,
but everyone had a camaro.
One of the primary reasons I put together a 440 Duster was there were so many big block chevelles around at the time.
As for the Ford 390/428 motor .. boat anchors all. The heads just plain sucked.
The Ford 427 was a good motor, if you could actually find one.
Same with the Cleveland ..if you actually found one it cost more then a Hemi to build it.
I ran across people now an then that had a 'built' 428 an such
.. short shifted on 'em cause I was so far ahead it was silly to push the rev limit.
Personally I enjoy workin with any motor that can breathe well and is strong enough to stay together doin it.
Useda feel that a 2-bolt main 396 was a contradiction ..even the 'small port' heads flowed great and begged for 7k without major work.
Big port heads, 4 bolt 427 chebbie with enough carb, compression, and cam will scare the *crap* out of most
..it *likes* 7k+ rpm and gets there in a heartbeat.
I useda tell people I spent more time actually shifting than it took for my '64 Malibu to run thru the gears.
Of course that makes my opinions somewhat biased .. I know a lot of the cars I ran against were decent and the owners considered them fast.
There were nights when people cruised after a day at the drags with numbers on their windows an such ..
.. I useda love poppin their cherries hard :)
Nowadays .. I am like a kid in a candy store again .. there are just soo many cool toys
..and once again I am runnin into the guys who think they're fast and they just are not.
Ran the vette thru the first 3 gears hard the other day (albeit a bit slower than I useda) after spendin the last month or so gettin used to it ..
..oohh yaa .. it feels *great* to see a fender fade to the rear because he thought he had some on this old guy -evil grin-
ya .. got a 5 year plan in place, we will see how it goes
.. people tellin me the vette will do mid 13's out at Speedworld provided I dont miss a gear .. we will see :)
-GE aka Frank
thing that's almost always amazed me when i watch mopars drag race.....and i'm talking the guy that drives his car every day, takes it to the track for test n tune, or gamblers race........almost without fail, they will pull right on by nearly anything else street driven.....ford or chevy. they seem to do this all in the upper rpm band.
i've see 2 or 3 289's run that fast.......those friggin things were screaming for mercy the way they were being wound.
ford engines are a challenge to build.........if ya like a challenge, build one. if ya like the easy way....build a chevy. buddy of mine had a 427 galaxy500. thing was scary. his brother had a 58 fairlane. he built a 390 with trips, 4 speed toploader, 9" detroit locker.
first weekend out, he blew part of the ring gear out the back side of the housing. ouch. second weekend out, clicked off an 11.2. said it felt like it was falling on its face. something happened with the linkages, and he was running on a single carb. this was a full weight street car....what'd those things weigh back then? that he drove every single day. that's how i've almost always built my stuff....as have all of my friends.
my "opinions" are biased...as are virtually everones. but when i say what i see, or experience, i do my best to keep bias out of it. earlier, when i mentioned that capri that i could never beat with the shops camaro......whelp...the dood simply was faster and quicker, on a 460. he was in the mid 9's whilst our car would only get into the 9.9's. the dood that owned and drove it was one helluva character though.....fun as hell to hang around and bs with him in the pits.
the guys that think they're fast........run a mustang with a nice lope and glasspacks, and it almost seems as if the only people not trying to pick a race with ya are the police. hell....i ran the stratford police chief's son one night. dood thought he was gonna stay near me....and he did, 'cause i let him, till i got bored with that game.
your vette.......what year/version was it again? i thought they were mostly 12 second cars..........
-
Cap:
It's a '97 coupe, 3.42's in the back, soft suspension option w/magnetic adjustable shocks
Means I can set it to squishy and the front end comes up rather abruptly when I do that clutch-rpm launch thing and when I hit gears hard :)
No active handling on the '97's .. traction control can be on or off :)
In Arizona, when a car reaches fifteen years of age, it can be considered a classic and smog exempt if it's insured as such -very evil grin-
That is next year.
I really do wonder what a rat motor can do in this platform, yet I intend to do an LS based 427
..the number just fits a vette.
And the LS based motor is so worthy to work with.
Then will come the supercharger.
Gonna leave the turbo's for the kids .. I want it all right off idle :)
-Frank aka GE
-
Here's a nice Vid of the Challenger on Nurburgring Nordschleife. You'll notice BMW M3's and Porsche 911s' & Nissan -GTR.
The Challenger can handle and run .Nice roar to that Hemi. The second vid is Dodges secret Garage. Totaly awesome.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5xvtzUCXvg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=iF-rd3HhObU
-
I'm a big fan of the 462 engine.
-
Here's a nice Vid of the Challenger on Nurburgring Nordschleife. You'll notice BMW M3's and Porsche 911s' & Nissan -GTR.
The Challenger can handle and run .Nice roar to that Hemi. The second vid is Dodges secret Garage. Totaly awesome.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5xvtzUCXvg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=iF-rd3HhObU
:rock
that first video is awesome
I saw a video of a challenger smoking a Lamborghini
:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6sXkDIeymg
-
:rock
that first video is awesome
I saw a video of a challenger smoking a Lamborghini
:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6sXkDIeymg
:O
2-3 shift and he spins in the challenger... :aok
-
:O
2-3 shift and he spins in the challenger... :aok
i did that in a co-workers honda civic si a couple years ago. :aok
-
i did that in a co-workers honda civic si a couple years ago. :aok
FWD?
-
NADA reported the 2011 R/T as a top ten buy.
You can read the top ten here. http://newcarnetworks.com/2011/nadaguides-releases-quarterly-car-buyers-market-report/
The Challenger apparently to NADA is holding its' value very well.
-
i've never seen a single report that has the challenger doing much more than giving the 6 cylinder stangs and camaros a run......v8's.....ferget it.
Cap.....you're leading a very sheltered life :lol
-
FWD?
yep, it only ran a low 14 second 1/4 though. he took it to the track that weekend...i think i could've gotten it into the 13's/
-
Prestigious Awards won by the Challenger last 5 years.
Best of Show-2006 Challenger Concept-North America International Auto Show Detroit
Best of show (2006)- LA Auto Show
Best Concept car (2006) Auto Week
Peoples Choice Award for 2006 (NAIAS)
2008 Collectable Car of the Future- Friends of the Automotive History Collection (NAHC)
Top Owner Satisfaction List for 2009- Annual Auto Survey- Consumer Reports
10 Best Looking Cars for 2009- Vehix.com
Most Appealing Mid-Size Sporty Car- JD Power and Associates 2009 Appeal Study
Best of Class Ideal Vehicle for 2009, Sporty Car category-Auto Pacific
The 25 Most Collectible Cars of the last 25 years - Consumer Guide Automotive
Recommended buy for 2009 - Consumer Guide Automotive
Motor Trend Car of the Year (contender) - Motor Trend (listed contender)
5-Star Safety rating (2009/2010) - NHTSA
2010- Forbes Most Beautiful Cars
10 Cars that will look good in 10 Years- US News & World Report (March 2011)
A Top 10 Best Buy- NADA Guides (march 2011)
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you can have all your prestigious awards all day long. i'll add my tail lights to them for ya. :devil
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Not on the road you won't :t
Those awards make the Challenger even more valuable......not only does it look good
it is apparently the most appealing to the majority of the public. That's what pays!
In reality all 3 a great muscle cars......wished they'd have come back 20 years sooner!
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if that had been so, it would have ended up a four-cylinder that we would be making fun of now
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Not on the road you won't :t
Those awards make the Challenger even more valuable......not only does it look good
it is apparently the most appealing to the majority of the public. That's what pays!
In reality all 3 a great muscle cars......wished they'd have come back 20 years sooner!
on the road is exactly where i'm talking about.
that's one of my favorite things about the mustang. i can drive it every day, any weather, and it'll never let me down....with the exception of heavy snow..there'll be things that'll take one at a stop light challenge....like vettes, porsches, etc.....but for the most part, she'll win those stop light challenges.
then she'll be driven to the track, raced, do well in whatever street class ya run her in, and driven home again. at least if my 89 was any clue......and this thing is leaps and bounds above my 89. :aok
with the exception of looks, as far as ford was concerned, they were back. the fox chasis mustangs, while not the best looking stang ever made, was one of the best performing mustangs out there.......till this one. it was being chased a lot too. :neener:
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on the road is exactly where i'm talking about.
that's one of my favorite things about the mustang. i can drive it every day, any weather, and it'll never let me down....with the exception of heavy snow..there'll be things that'll take one at a stop light challenge....like vettes, porsches, etc.....but for the most part, she'll win those stop light challenges.
then she'll be driven to the track, raced, do well in whatever street class ya run her in, and driven home again. at least if my 89 was any clue......and this thing is leaps and bounds above my 89. :aok
with the exception of looks, as far as ford was concerned, they were back. the fox chasis mustangs, while not the best looking stang ever made, was one of the best performing mustangs out there.......till this one. it was being chased a lot too. :neener:
Most don't notice that the newer Mustangs, Camaros and Challengers are faster in the 1/4 then there counterparts during the 60s and early 70s.
Had a nice deep blue new Camaro pull along side me today at a redlight. He revved his engine...light changed...we had at it....after I just chirpped 2nd heading for
three he backed off. Dunno what spooked him? His definately was an auto.
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Most don't notice that the newer Mustangs, Camaros and Challengers are faster in the 1/4 then there counterparts during the 60s and early 70s.
Had a nice deep blue new Camaro pull along side me today at a redlight. He revved his engine...light changed...we had at it....after I just chirpped 2nd heading for
three he backed off. Dunno what spooked him? His definately was an auto.
he was driving a Chevy...
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Most don't notice that the newer Mustangs, Camaros and Challengers are faster in the 1/4 then there counterparts during the 60s and early 70s.
Had a nice deep blue new Camaro pull along side me today at a redlight. He revved his engine...light changed...we had at it....after I just chirpped 2nd heading for
three he backed off. Dunno what spooked him? His definately was an auto.
he was driving a chevy.......nuff said.
i coulda pulled up next to ya in my caravan..and if i even remotley thought you wanted to run, i would have.....and lost, but i'd have not backed off.
in my stangs....when my 83 was stock, i never EVER lost a race, on the street or track to a stock camaro of that era. or dodge. i lost to quite a few buicks though, till i figured out hot to beat them.
when that stang was modified, i still never lost to anything similarily modded.
repeat above for the 89, 'cept it was faster, both stock, and once modded.
when i cough up the money for a new gt, it will be repeated once again. :aok
almost forgot.......i've only seen one camaro modified so far in my area....probably 'cause most of em are still sitting at the dealers......but it sounded ok.
i've seen quite a few modded stangs passing the shop. how can one not notice a car that is growling as menacingly as the new stangs do>?
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he was driving a chevy.......nuff said.
i coulda pulled up next to ya in my caravan..and if i even remotley thought you wanted to run, i would have.....and lost, but i'd have not backed off.
in my stangs....when my 83 was stock, i never EVER lost a race, on the street or track to a stock camaro of that era. or dodge. i lost to quite a few buicks though, till i figured out hot to beat them.
when that stang was modified, i still never lost to anything similarily modded.
repeat above for the 89, 'cept it was faster, both stock, and once modded.
when i cough up the money for a new gt, it will be repeated once again. :aok
almost forgot.......i've only seen one camaro modified so far in my area....probably 'cause most of em are still sitting at the dealers......but it sounded ok.
i've seen quite a few modded stangs passing the shop. how can one not notice a car that is growling as menacingly as the new stangs do>?
The new Challengers growl nicely stock. I have sirrius radio and would rather listen to the exhaust note then the radio.
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The new Challengers growl nicely stock. I have sirrius radio and would rather listen to the exhaust note then the radio.
there's a choice?
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driven home again. at least if my 89 was any clue......and this thing is leaps and bounds above my 89. :aok
with the exception of looks, as far as ford was concerned, they were back. the fox chasis mustangs, while not the best looking stang ever made, was one of the best performing mustangs out there.......till this one. it was being chased a lot too. :neener:
sniffle... I miss my '89 5.0 GT convertible... :cry
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sniffle... I miss my '89 5.0 GT convertible... :cry
i know where ya can buy a 650hp supercharged 87 gt convt. street legal. :devil
only problem is it's yellow........
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i know where ya can buy a 650hp supercharged 87 gt convt. street legal. :devil
only problem is it's yellow........
price?
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price?
he's asking $9k for it, and he's flexible. he never drives the dam thing at all. i had it in the shop last year for a new supercharger belt, and he just brought it in for an oil change.....it has about 100 miles since the belt.
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not bad.
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not bad.
not at all really. what keeps me from being interested, is that it's a convertible. i never liked the fox chassis convertibles.......just something i didn't like bout the looks......
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A lot of people forming an opinon on vehicles they have never driven.
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Currently the headers and exhaust kits for the new Camaro outsell the same parts for Mustangs and Challengers by at least 5:1.
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Currently the headers and exhaust kits for the new Camaro outsell the same parts for Mustangs and Challengers by at least 5:1.
that would be due to the fact that the camaro owners need them to keep up with the mustangs. :aok
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A lot of people forming an opinon on vehicles they have never driven.
I have driven all three for my previous employer.
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that would be due to the fact that the camaro owners need them to keep up with the mustangs. :aok
:rofl :rock
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I have driven all three for my previous employer.
i wish i could say the same....although i have driven all three of them in their older versions.............perhaps, just for chits and giggles, i'll go on a test drive frenzy......there's dealers for all three of them within 3 miles of my shop...it could be interesting, and fun.
winner ford has a couple gt500's on the showroom floor.......... :devil
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i wish i could say the same....although i have driven all three of them in their older versions.............perhaps, just for watermelons and giggles, i'll go on a test drive frenzy......there's dealers for all three of them within 3 miles of my shop...it could be interesting, and fun.
winner ford has a couple gt500's on the showroom floor.......... :devil
seen one yesterday...metallic orange with black racing stripes goin down the middle. dunno how one could say the Camaro or Charger looks better.
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I have driven all three for my previous employer.
I drive all 3 with my current employer.
Stock, twin turbocharged, supercharged, nitrous oxide injected, methanol injection.....all.
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Icapac, your post made me think... what are the professions involved in the population of the game? there are some big money things done to brand new cars...
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I'm pretty sure none of our customers play any video games.....interesting.
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that would be due to the fact that the camaro owners need them to keep up with the mustangs. :aok
I'd base it on sales. Really simple :)
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I'm pretty sure none of our customers play any video games.....interesting.
im not saying your customers. im asking what your profession is. Along with like Shuffler and the others who have nicely set up newer model Muscle Cars.
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im not saying your customers. im asking what your profession is. Along with like Shuffler and the others who have nicely set up newer model Muscle Cars.
i own my own repair shop. if it fits in my bay, and runs on gas or diesel, i can fix it. :aok
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I drive all 3 with my current employer.
Stock, twin turbocharged, supercharged, nitrous oxide injected, methanol injection.....all.
I drove stock and Roush Modified ones. The mustang while having some flaws, was far and away the better overall performer.
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I am a Co-Owner of a Fabrication & Machine Shop with my younger brother.
My secondary position is taunter of CAP1 :neener:
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I am a Co-Owner of a Fabrication & Machine Shop with my younger brother.
My secondary position is taunter of CAP1 :neener:
at least i know someone on these boards likes me. :devil
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:rofl
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i did that in a co-workers honda civic si a couple years ago. :aok
I miss punching it in with the third gear in my ol' Hondas. :( :cry
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I miss punching it in with the third gear in my ol' Hondas. :( :cry
well...to be honest.....and i think you guys get the point, that i say what i experience in here, concerning cars......
the kid wanted to see what the car would do. he was afraid to do hammer on it himself the first time.
i pulled out of the shop lot, lined the tires up straight, brought the engine to about 6k rpm, and dumped the clutch. rolled smoke all of first gear, broke em loose again in second, and got a little spin in third. i was too fast for the upcoming turn.....had i been driving a mustang or camaro.....that little pos stayed glued to the road, and went around the bend like a slot car.
it really did impress me. i didn't expect that acceleration, or the power to be so smooth through the band.
like i mentioned earlier, he ran a mid/low 14 second 1/4 mile with it, and that was his first time driving it that way. i feel safe to say that i could have easily gotten it into the 13.9's, which again i think is mighty impressive for that car. :aok
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im not saying your customers. im asking what your profession is. Along with like Shuffler and the others who have nicely set up newer model Muscle Cars.
Nissan, toyota, and Lexus dealership technician....... but I now work for a shop that does high performance work on corvettes, ford GT, some mustangs, challengers, camaros, new caddy supercharged....etc.
We stay away from audi, mercedes, most porsches, and bmw but we will do performance work on the diesels of these brands as well as american truck diesel performance.
We are able to do honda, nissan, toyota, lexus performance but are very careful to only take on big projects as the smaller projects with these cars usually nets you 10 hondas and nissans in various stages of completion parked in the parking lot with liens on them.
I also do vintage nissan restoration (from roadster to 300zx tt) and porsche restoration and performance from 356 to 934RSR to 914s to the last years of air cooled 911 based cars.
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Nissan, toyota, and Lexus dealership technician....... but I now work for a shop that does high performance work on corvettes, ford GT, some mustangs, challengers, camaros, new caddy supercharged....etc.
We stay away from audi, mercedes, most porsches, and bmw but we will do performance work on the diesels of these brands as well as american truck diesel performance.
We are able to do honda, nissan, toyota, lexus performance but are very careful to only take on big projects as the smaller projects with these cars usually nets you 10 hondas and nissans in various stages of completion parked in the parking lot with liens on them.
I also do vintage nissan restoration (from roadster to 300zx tt) and porsche restoration and performance from 356 to 934RSR to 914s to the last years of air cooled 911 based cars.
when i get anyone wanting me to do performance work.....i'll gladly do ford, chevy, and chrysler. i won't touch any asian imports, as i've found that 90% of the people that want their mitsubishis, hondas, etc. done, are pretty much "fast and furious" rejects.
i won't touch audis, 'cept for general repair, as i don't like em......and i've never really had anyone ask me to do performance work on any of the other euro cars.
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Nissan, toyota, and Lexus dealership technician....... but I now work for a shop that does high performance work on corvettes, ford GT, some mustangs, challengers, camaros, new caddy supercharged....etc.
We stay away from audi, mercedes, most porsches, and bmw but we will do performance work on the diesels of these brands as well as american truck diesel performance.
We are able to do honda, nissan, toyota, lexus performance but are very careful to only take on big projects as the smaller projects with these cars usually nets you 10 hondas and nissans in various stages of completion parked in the parking lot with liens on them.
I also do vintage nissan restoration (from roadster to 300zx tt) and porsche restoration and performance from 356 to 934RSR to 914s to the last years of air cooled 911 based cars.
interesting. when i get anyone wanting me to do performance work.....i'll gladly do ford, chevy, and chrysler. i won't touch any asian imports, as i've found that 90% of the people that want their mitsubishis, hondas, etc. done, are pretty much "fast and furious" rejects.
i won't touch audis, 'cept for general repair, as i don't like em......and i've never really had anyone ask me to do performance work on any of the other euro cars.
to both of you: What college dfid yo uattend? lookin to go for automotive, primarily Cummins Turbo Diesel.
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interesting.
to both of you: What college dfid yo uattend? lookin to go for automotive, primarily Cummins Turbo Diesel.
while i think schools have changed.......i went to penco tech for basics, back when i was 19. to be honest, i learned more at atco dragway, than i did there.
i got my first job at a shop called borcher auto and towing. privatly owned, 3 bay shop. we fixed anything, and everything. my learning was there. mitchells manuals, and broken cars.
the owner was good about sending me to classes, and seminars, which helped. i learned a LOT by doing. i still do. i worked for him for nearly 10 years. he's a good guy, but he used to be wound tighter than a drum.
i left there, to go to a limo dealer for a short period, where i got good training on a/c systems, but didn't like the dealer atmosphere. there's too much politics involved in that kind of atmosphere, and.....try to not act too shocked about this.......i totally SUCK at kissing arse, which is how you get the good paying jobs at any kind of dealership.
went back to borchers for a couple years, then went to work for the guy that used to own the shop i now own. worked for him for around 10 years or so. same thing......learned by doing.
most of the people i used to ask for advice, now ask me for advice.
check with your local colleges. i'm in contact right now with camden county community college, trying to get an apprentice, as i'd been there for a couple of seminars, and was seriously impressed with their program, and the quality of their training/teaching, and their facility.
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I used to be fairly clueless about car repairs, but had a friend who knew a lot and got me covered on the basics, starting with a simple brake change.
eventually I was able to replace a horked heater core on my '89 chevy S10, replace the shocks (took me 3 hrs to i figured i needed some deep socket wrenches, lol). Also recently replaced the upper intake manifold gasket on my f-150 (took a lot of research to narrow down the issue, and only after hitting windstar engine tech issues - shared 4.2l engine with my truck)... it was a beeeech to remove the manifold with evry little room.. I can only imagine the difficulties that would be encountered by someone who was bigger than myself in getting tehir hands/arms in that area.
but... my bestest macguyver moment was with my friends '81 capri. i had <cough> scraped my stang and it was in the shop. we needed to be there by 5pm. as we were getting ready to hit the highway his gas pedal went totally slack... pulled over... figured the cable/lever broke (it did). because my other friend had once showed me how a throttle works i decided that we should rip out the speaker wires (addon) from the trunk and tie it to the throttle, run it thru the drivers window and go "manual." it worked, we got to the dealer and the mechs were impressed with our ingenuity. be harder to pull off this kind of stuff with so much electronics these days.
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Replacing a heater core in a S10 successfully should net you master technician status as with most any japanese car.
I started on cars by reading everything on them as far back as 7 years old when I also was given a transparent plastic rotary engine that actually turned and had extensive documentation.
Because of this reading, I built a steam turbine in the 5th grade for the science fair that was exceedingly dangerous that they only let it sit static.
At that time, I was already fixing lawnmower, edger, and pump engines for usage on GoKarts and graduated to outboards and two stroke kart engines.
By the time I was 16, I had already spent 8 years reading most every publication and technical manual on vehicles that interested me and had already collected parts for what I thought my intended car would be.
I still do that now and will search out a car just because I acquired a rare option for it........yes, I will build a car around a rare clutch pedal or another equally rare option and still collect parts for cars I don't end up owning until 5 or more years down the line.
I'm sure Cap also read HotRod and other car magazines in class instead of school books and this reading is a fast ticket to knowledge of performance.
The rest is hands on which will yield more than a few failures.......this is where youth and lack of responsibilities in life comes in which gives you time to do this experimentation.
After that, I attended Southern Illinois University, Carbondale to get my Airframe and Powerplant license but only used that knowledge working for the smithsonian on a volunteer basis restoring planes and engines.
I still spend hours researching and reading every single day whether a manual or via the internet where you can add a minus sign after your search terms in google searches (with offending phrase in quotes) that you know to be incorrect to filter out bad information that seems to get parroted to multiple sites.
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Replacing a heater core in a S10 successfully should net you master technician status as with most any japanese car.
I started on cars by reading everything on them as far back as 7 years old when I also was given a transparent plastic rotary engine that actually turned and had extensive documentation.
Because of this reading, I built a steam turbine in the 5th grade for the science fair that was exceedingly dangerous that they only let it sit static.
At that time, I was already fixing lawnmower, edger, and pump engines for usage on GoKarts and graduated to outboards and two stroke kart engines.
By the time I was 16, I had already spent 8 years reading most every publication and technical manual on vehicles that interested me and had already collected parts for what I thought my intended car would be.
I still do that now and will search out a car just because I acquired a rare option for it........yes, I will build a car around a rare clutch pedal or another equally rare option and still collect parts for cars I don't end up owning until 5 or more years down the line.
I'm sure Cap also read HotRod and other car magazines in class instead of school books and this reading is a fast ticket to knowledge of performance.
The rest is hands on which will yield more than a few failures.......this is where youth and lack of responsibilities in life comes in which gives you time to do this experimentation.
After that, I attended Southern Illinois University, Carbondale to get my Airframe and Powerplant license but only used that knowledge working for the smithsonian on a volunteer basis restoring planes and engines.
I still spend hours researching and reading every single day whether a manual or via the internet where you can add a minus sign after your search terms in google searches (with offending phrase in quotes) that you know to be incorrect to filter out bad information that seems to get parroted to multiple sites.
got my fair share of stuff to do based on the bold... broke a head stud (thought i had a bad head gasket, but my told me to check all my head studs were tight... got one too tight and snapped it. hit a big bumb wayyy to fast [it was never that big in the past though] and screwed my exhaust up.) got shocks to replace, dents to fix.
done brakes on a friends truck, my dads truck and my moms truck. oil changes, the normal...
lookin on doin UTI or UNOH. anyone know anything about em? my brother has a few buddies who attended each. sound pretty good.
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Replacing a heater core in a S10 successfully should net you master technician status as with most any japanese car.
I started on cars by reading everything on them as far back as 7 years old when I also was given a transparent plastic rotary engine that actually turned and had extensive documentation.
Because of this reading, I built a steam turbine in the 5th grade for the science fair that was exceedingly dangerous that they only let it sit static.
At that time, I was already fixing lawnmower, edger, and pump engines for usage on GoKarts and graduated to outboards and two stroke kart engines.
By the time I was 16, I had already spent 8 years reading most every publication and technical manual on vehicles that interested me and had already collected parts for what I thought my intended car would be.
I still do that now and will search out a car just because I acquired a rare option for it........yes, I will build a car around a rare clutch pedal or another equally rare option and still collect parts for cars I don't end up owning until 5 or more years down the line.
I'm sure Cap also read HotRod and other car magazines in class instead of school books and this reading is a fast ticket to knowledge of performance.
The rest is hands on which will yield more than a few failures.......this is where youth and lack of responsibilities in life comes in which gives you time to do this experimentation.
After that, I attended Southern Illinois University, Carbondale to get my Airframe and Powerplant license but only used that knowledge working for the smithsonian on a volunteer basis restoring planes and engines.
I still spend hours researching and reading every single day whether a manual or via the internet where you can add a minus sign after your search terms in google searches (with offending phrase in quotes) that you know to be incorrect to filter out bad information that seems to get parroted to multiple sites.
i did used to read hot rod, car craft, and there was one other. to a point, you can learn from them. but once again, i learned a boatload actually going to the track, and racing.
i also stopped reading those mags, at about the time i realized that my grandmothers 71 ford ranch wagon 390 2bbl could more than handle pretty much everyone's hot rods(in the school), with the execption of one kids hemi gtx. that, and hot rod was endlessly hammering us with camaros, novas, and 57 chevys back then. is it any wonder that kids think chevys are better? :devil
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got my fair share of stuff to do based on the bold... broke a head stud (thought i had a bad head gasket, but my told me to check all my head studs were tight... got one too tight and snapped it. hit a big bumb wayyy to fast [it was never that big in the past though] and screwed my exhaust up.) got shocks to replace, dents to fix.
done brakes on a friends truck, my dads truck and my moms truck. oil changes, the normal...
lookin on doin UTI or UNOH. anyone know anything about em? my brother has a few buddies who attended each. sound pretty good.
one of my ex-civil air patrol cadets just got out of the marines. he's starting at uti i think. i'll call him tomorrow, and see what he has to say about em.
BTW.....HOW FRIGGIN HARD WERE YOU PULLIN ON THE RATCHET???? to break a head bolt?
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one of my ex-civil air patrol cadets just got out of the marines. he's starting at uti i think. i'll call him tomorrow, and see what he has to say about em.
thank you much
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ya know....i wasn't gonna link this here....but what the hell......
half way down the page, there's a video on these cobra jets.....
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/04/04/ford-delivers-2012-mustang-cobra-jet-racers-lays-claim-to-quick/#continued
cobra jet engine build. notice it's a "Y" block.
http://www.fordracingparts.com/announcements/news106.asp
boss302S. production car that is built to compete.....i'm sure ford paid them to let it in though. :noid
http://www.fordracingparts.com/announcements/news104.asp
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1 more.....2011 gt350. 525hp, 3.7 seconds 0-60, 12 seconds flat 1/4 mile, 1.06 skidpad.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1009_2011_mustang_shelby_gt350_prototype_test/index.html
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You can slag chevy all you want but I drove a 1969 SS427 impala into which I put a 1968 L88.
I took the closed chamber heads and used them with flat top pistons and found a proper thickness gasket to get mucho quench which allowed me to run any fuel available at the gas station yet still put down enough power to push that sled to 11.5 in the quarter mile...........for 3 years of high school and never needed any service other than spark plugs and points.
We're also getting 1200hp out of Z06 engines for daily drivers.
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You can slag chevy all you want but I drove a 1969 SS427 impala into which I put a 1968 L88.
I took the closed chamber heads and used them with flat top pistons and found a proper thickness gasket to get mucho quench which allowed me to run any fuel available at the gas station yet still put down enough power to push that sled to 11.5 in the quarter mile...........for 3 years of high school and never needed any service other than spark plugs and points.
We're also getting 1200hp out of Z06 engines for daily drivers.
i don't really have anything against chevys. i own an 8 second camaro, remember?
i'm just twistin nipples. :noid
oh yea......buddy drives a 1200 hp viper. i can't afford that much power.........
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i don't really have anything against chevys. i own an 8 second camaro, remember?
i'm just twistin nipples. :noid
oh yea......buddy drives a 1200 hp viper. i can't afford that much power.........
:bolt:
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Only a coupla things I have against Fords:
1) .. frikkin 17 bolts to hold on a water pump, wtf??
2) ..they build a killer engine ..then only make enough so they seem 'mythical'
. . unobtainium .. and if you do find one ... it cost more to build than a Hemi.
It was boatloads easier to find and build decent power with any garden variety chebby,
.. even the 440 mopar could be had for not much more than a decent Rat.
Nowadays, the LS motor series are almost like science fiction.
Mileage, power, reliability, AVAILABILITY ..they set the bar pretty high.
May be awhile before you see one in a wreckin yard for 100 bucks, but they are out there :)
recent Craigslist here in Phx had a ZR-1 motor runnin on the stand, guy was askin 8k.
Guy who owned the ZR-1 wanted a blown big block in it, instead. (he went 572 w/8-71 I heard)
My kinda guy :)
-GE aka Frank
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Only a coupla things I have against Fords:
1) .. frikkin 17 bolts to hold on a water pump, wtf??
2) ..they build a killer engine ..then only make enough so they seem 'mythical'
. . unobtainium .. and if you do find one ... it cost more to build than a Hemi.
It was boatloads easier to find and build decent power with any garden variety chebby,
.. even the 440 mopar could be had for not much more than a decent Rat.
Nowadays, the LS motor series are almost like science fiction.
Mileage, power, reliability, AVAILABILITY ..they set the bar pretty high.
May be awhile before you see one in a wreckin yard for 100 bucks, but they are out there :)
recent Craigslist here in Phx had a ZR-1 motor runnin on the stand, guy was askin 8k.
Guy who owned the ZR-1 wanted a blown big block in it, instead. (he went 572 w/8-71 I heard)
My kinda guy :)
-GE aka Frank
if you've ever worked on any of those....you'd have experienced the bolts that break, then require removal of the timing cover.....unless you know the stupidly simple trick to avoid them.
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very interesting :eek:
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very interesting :eek:
yes it is...considering that the camaro couldn't hold off the #61 mustang for more than a lap or two last week......and needed a full course yellow in order to win its first race in the series. :devil
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Was 'the engine guy' and 'the Holley guy' for a SoCal speedshop '76-'81.
Later was 'the engine guy' for a SoCal auto shop that wanted to be a hi-perf place '86-'93
-shakes head- .. prolly put together a hundred or so motors and spec'd out a few hundred more for owners to build up.
I am all over 'stupid tricks' to make things easier :)
There are some cars/engines I refuse to work on.
289 Ford is one. Guy comes in and wants to know how to make his '65 Mustang faster, I told him to put a Chebby in it.
He put a 454 in his '65 Fastback, single 850 Holley .. 9's in the quarter first time out.
Of course the car was built up to take the heat .. 14" slicks an all.
Wasn't a street car after a few years, but he had a blast tweakin the purists.
Bullit had nothin on him :)
As far as learnin, never went to a school for automotive anything.
Read Car Craft primarily, they had more meat an potato articles that actually taught what worked
than Hot Rod and others, their article on tunnel-ram tuning back in the day is what prompted me to do the deed.
I also invested in some killer books for their time 'How to Hot Rod a big block Chevy' by Peterson Publications was my bible.
Among others. Chilton's manuals helped a ton in my early days.
I always did the research for my projects .. read extensively about A-body mopars before/during/after buildin my 440 Duster.
Chose the Duster over a Dart because the Duster has a shorter wheelbase, among other things.
I understand there are similar books out now for the LS motors -very evil grin-
-Frank
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289 was/is actually a good dependable engine. the water pump thing is its biggest weak point. that, and you need to know how to work the heads to make em breathe. i've seen 9, 10, and 11 second 289's.
btw.......on ANY 289/302/5.0L ford engine that i'm doing a water pump on.....i take an air chisel to the pump, right at the main bolts....the long ones by the coolant passages. those tend to sieze in the timing cover, thanks to a lack of sealer. break the pump, and you break the pump, and you break the tension, thus allowing the bolts to come out without breaking.
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My old Mustang 289 GT ran high 9's, when I was in high school. My 289 ran with ported HiPo heads, which were tough to find.
Ford has always been weak in head design. That is why both Chrysler (except the 383 heads) and GM have been able to beat up on Ford. Ford guys know how to make a Ford engine run with anyone/anything and that usually ends up meaning they replace the heads, or spend some serious dough on port and flow benchwork.
Today a good set of heads can be had from a number of manufacturers. However, I still maintain I will never run a big block Ford engine. Chevy and Chrysler big blocks are better engines to start with.
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I saw a show on the Shelby Mustang, how they modify it. It was great. They assign two men teams and they take ownership of the product.
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Which "big block ford engine"?
The FE series (galaxy 406)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/40/Ford_406_TriPower.jpg/800px-Ford_406_TriPower.jpg)
The MEL series (super marauder)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/nanzep/Mary%20Elizabeth/maraudersetup.jpg)
The 385 series
(http://www.fordmuscleforums.com/attachments/garage/340d1185873617-three-two-barrel-holleys-429-tripower_1.jpg)
Now the biggest weakness of the windsor engines was the casting between the water pump and the front of the engine.
If you didn't run good anti-freeze, it would erode quickly.
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None of the big block Ford engines (I would have specified the series if any of them were worth a poop). Well, except for the cammer 427. I forget about it. Do not get me wrong. For a street engine, they would last a long time, but the cost to get them to racing dependability is much higher than anything from Chevy or Chrysler.
You talking about the timing cover being the weakest part. It would last just fine as long as the coolant was not allowed to stay in the engine so long it would start a galvanic process in the aluminum.
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I saw a show on the Shelby Mustang, how they modify it. It was great. They assign two men teams and they take ownership of the product.
just an FYI...the boss302 mustangs that you see racing, are built inhouse, with the exception of the rollcage. it gets built oin the assembly line, shipped out, rollcage welded in, then comes back to the auto alliance plant, and is then built there.
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http://www.gmperformanceparts.com/EngineShowcase/index.jsp?engId=Anniversary427&engine=Anniversary%20Edition%20427&sku=19166392&engCat=bb
A very much toned down version (no rectangle port heads w/2.35 intakes and no solid lifters and mild compression)
..but .. what a toy to start with :)
Interesting to note the difference tween the bore x stroke on this venerable Rat compared to the LS based 427ci motors.
-Frank
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http://www.gmperformanceparts.com/EngineShowcase/index.jsp?engId=Anniversary427&engine=Anniversary%20Edition%20427&sku=19166392&engCat=bb
A very much toned down version (no rectangle port heads w/2.35 intakes and no solid lifters and mild compression)
..but .. what a toy to start with :)
Interesting to note the difference tween the bore x stroke on this venerable Rat compared to the LS based 427ci motors.
-Frank
i'll see your 427, and raise you this 427, but i'll toss in a 521.....and a couple sub-400 engines making the same power as that 427...... :devil
http://fordracingparts.com/crateengine/main.asp
simply click on any of the engines, and you get the options......and prices. :devil :aok
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what are the professions involved in the population of the game? there are some big money things done to brand new cars...
Lead Test Driver for Roush Racing last year. I still get to sneak into MIS on "track days" and drive some of the good stuff.
Team O' Neill Rally School graduate in 1995.
Thinking about going to Mexico and navigating for a buddy in a Rally Race down there in 2012.
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Aye CAP, I cannot beleive GM is toning down the animal cracker that the Z Rat motor was..
Gm should call you or me to consult, why go through all that limited edition tooling collector item stuff and only make a creampuff 427?
Next they'll come out with a 'commemorative CAN-AM Rat' that makes 400hp .. ROFL.
(those monsters ran 750hp, Hilborn injected, 13:1 compression .. to *start* with..
..one would overshadow the ZL-1 on an engine stand in my living room :)
(as if it would live there long, LOL)
-Frank (they ran them in the Chapparall LeMans cars, truly crazy fun cars I have read)
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Aye CAP, I cannot beleive GM is toning down the animal cracker that the Z Rat motor was..
Gm should call you or me to consult, why go through all that limited edition tooling collector item stuff and only make a creampuff 427?
Next they'll come out with a 'commemorative CAN-AM Rat' that makes 400hp .. ROFL.
(those monsters ran 750hp, Hilborn injected, 13:1 compression .. to *start* with..
..one would overshadow the ZL-1 on an engine stand in my living room :)
(as if it would live there long, LOL)
-Frank (they ran them in the Chapparall LeMans cars, truly crazy fun cars I have read)
they probably hired some tard that used to work for ford, from the era of the sn95 mustang.......ford did a good job of effing up the stang back then. same dood's probably effing up gm's crate motors right now.
any of these engine assemblies that any of them are selling should have at least an option for balls to the walls performance, and then something mild, for the sissies with trailer queens to use.
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Trailer Queen = Elton John in a Parade
(is that politically correct?)
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Trailer Queen = Elton John in a Parade
(is that politically correct?)
:rofl :rofl
who cares!? it's funny! :aok