Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: titanic3 on August 30, 2011, 10:59:38 PM
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Lets make a list of situations where HOing is and isn't ok.
OK to do it when:
It's 3 v 1 or more
It's against a horde
It's against bombers
At extreme altitudes where you may only get one pass (unless you both bring it down to the deck)
During base defense
When you are badly damaged
When you are out of fuel
When you are saving a friendly from 3 or more cons
Against 262s
The other guy fires on you first (most important)
When it's not OK to HO:
1 v 1 situations (regardless of alt/E)
The first merge
When a friendly is dueling an enemy, unless the friendly asks for help. If the con complains, all complaints must be made against the original friendly, not the HOer that tried to save him.
Note: If there are other planes around you, still do not HO on the first pass unless you know for sure all planes involved are gangbanging you. That person you're merging with just might be calling his friends off for a 1 v 1.
When
When
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a preponderance of evidence suggests it's ok anytime a person flys bish...
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its really their loss, and even though I get shot up, I preserve some degree of e-honor.
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The accusation of performing the "Head On" is actually as hypocritical as it can be. The name of the game is to get your guns on the enemy and shoot him down, so when there are aircraft turning, climbing, diving, rolling, etc, it is almost inevitable that the combating aircraft are going to be "head on" at some point. Obviously, allowing the enemy to get their guns on you at any angle is not good so if you are willing to allow the enemy a shot in hopes that you can land your shot first... then roll the dice.
Some aircraft enjoy a default advantage in the HO. Anything is quad 20mm, or anything with all of its firepower in the nose (A20, B25, Mossi, 110, and even the P38) enjoy an advantage because everything is concentrated and convergence is no issue. Some aircraft should avoid the HO at all cost because they simply cant take the damage (most Japanese aircraft come to mind).
So when is it "ok" to perform the Head On? Always. Just be willing to lose at least half the time. ;) The more advanced the player the more often they will avoid the HO because there is no reason to give the enemy a shot when another turn, roll, or yo-yo (or 2) and the reversal will be complete.
Also, remember that it ALWAYS takes 2 for the HO to happen, it is NEVER the fault of only 1 of the dueling players.
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a preponderance of evidence suggests it's ok anytime a person flys bish...
:rofl
Maybe
No
Yes
No
No
No
No
No
No
No
After the third head to head vert, yes.
wrongway
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Smoking, I disagree. The point of the game is to have as much fun as possible. That usually involves 30 sec+ fights for most people. A HO ends a fight or prevent one from ever happening. It doesn't take 2 to HO. If one guy decides to fire, he's going to bring his sights to wherever you break or turn. It takes 2 NOT to HO, only takes one to end a fight prematurely.
However, like I stated, there are situations where you must take every opportunity you get because your chances of survival are low.
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I'll try to maneuver most of the time, but if you are in the gunsight, I will always pull the trigger.
Don't like it, stay out of the sight.
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It is a tactical decision. It is also a tactical decision to be aware of its existence and avoid giving the opening. Using maneuvers that give the other guy the option of using the HO, trusting to his "sportsmanship" to not take it and then whining about it when he takes it is just stupid. You chose a tactic that exposed you to it, probably because doing so would make it easier to get angles on him....if he let you get away with it. Whining when he doesn't let you get away with such a dishonest use of tactics is silly.
I don't like using it because it, by definition, gives the other guy a shot on me, but I will use it if I think my options have been reduced to HO or die meekly. If the other guy truly has me dead to rights he can just avoid the HO and let me blow my remaining E trying for the desperation shot, then kill me at his leisure. Or, he can take a fight he has essentially won and turn it into a coin toss. His choice.
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first off in the MA anything goes.......but you will be known by your actions....if all you do is HO everyone will know, and its a good chance you will be an easy kill in a 1vs1, no matter the plane set up, or initial situation.
and I definitely believe it only takes one to HO, A HO in definition is "HEAD ON" you are both facing each other with a gun solution...so technically it does take two to HO..but if you are fighting someone and all they do is come in with guns blazing with no ACM...does not care if you have a solution or not... he is a "HO" and is HOing you....
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ink,
If your tactics allow him to HO you when you don't want to HO him, they are bad tactics and you are likely trying for a gamey exploit of the PC expectation that he won't HO in order to get an advantage on him easier than it would be without giving him the option of the HO.
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ink,
If your tactics allow him to HO you when you don't want to HO him, they are bad tactics and you are likely trying for a gamey exploit of the PC expectation that he won't HO in order to get an advantage on him easier than it would be without giving him the option of the HO.
HO's are easy to avoid. especially in a 1vs1 it becomes more difficult, the more nme that is faced, but still possible, I am pretty sure I have a film of me fighting.....err avoiding HO pass after HO pass from 7 nme cons....haha hell I got a lot of films of that :D
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Lets make a list of situations where HOing is and isn't ok.
OK to do it when:
It's 3 v 1 or moreYes
It's against a hordeYes
It's against bombersYes but not recomended on heavies
At extreme altitudes where you may only get one pass (unless you both bring it down to the deck)no
During base defenseYes
When you are badly damagedKinda,If i have a pilot wound/fuel leak/engine leak
When you are out of fuelNo
When you are saving a friendly from 3 or more consYes
Against 262sSure but not recommended
The other guy fires on you first (most important)Depends, if the pilot is someone i know will whine about me HO'ing them, I'll HO just to have the chance to call him a hypocrite.
Also, If i encounter a plane i KNOW can outperform mine to a great extend, I'll take whatever shot i got on him, That includes the HO shot.(Like, Say im in a P40E, and i come across a spit9, If i get the chance, i'll HO)
If im heavy on an important task, And i encounter a fighter, I'll HO in an attempt to advoid having to jettison my ord.
If im helping to take a Base, and they ask for The skies to be Clear, I'll Ho. Great example of this was a fight i had with Reiner. I was providing fighter escort for a squadie, I went to the town to deack in a pony, Encountered Reiner in his Hurr, I had a more important assignment to do and He was proventing me from achieving it. So When i Had the Ho shot i took it. I wasent concerned with the 1v1. I was concerned with clearing the airspace So my squadie's buffs could bomb the town unharmed. I ended up hitting his engine and he ran to his ack to land. He then went on 200 and whined about being a HOtard. The way some people react to Ho's just make me want to Ho them to hear their whines. Like Reiners, I told him it was nothing personal, and i was just trying to clear the airspace as quickly as possable to protect friendly bombers. But he whined for 5 mins on 200 about how im a dweeb/hotard/noob/noskills/noaim/[B cuss word]
And challenged me to the DA for a 1v1 to prove his apparent dominance lol. It was all just so funny to read that i was kinda glad i Ho'ed him, and the funnier thing about it is, If he would of reup'ed right away, Instead of whining on 200, he may of had time to shoot me down and go after the buffs i was trying to protect.
If you go into the MA living by the 1v1 rules, then Your already doomed from the start.
:salute
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It's up to you to decide. Personally I don't care when you HO but I suggest doing it at every opportunity should you find yourself in a 110.
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the only time it's ok to ho is when the other airplane points his nose at you, if he doesnt point his nose at you then go ahead and take a front 1/4 shot.
semp
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Also, If i encounter a plane i KNOW can outperform mine to a great extend, I'll take whatever shot i got on him, That includes the HO shot.
:rofl So your solution is to fly 110s and Mossies because, in your mind, the HO shots are automatically justified.
:salute
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Every try to HO a bomber you are intercepting.
It's not easy to go truly HO unless both pilots are committed to doing so.
Sure I hate when I'm trying to get on someone's six and he keeps reversing in an attempt to force the HO but you ultimately have control as to how you meet your opponent.
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:rofl So your solution is to fly 110s and Mossies because, in your mind, the HO shots are automatically justified.
:salute
If im flying a 110 on a deacking mission, and i come across a spit/stang/w.e that i know can run circles around me plane vs plane, Sure i'll Ho, As far as im concerned my Deacking mission is much more important than some 1v1 for personal boasting.
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HO anytime they get too close for you to bail or ditch without giving up a proxy.
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:rofl So your solution is to fly 110s and Mossies because, in your mind, the HO shots are automatically justified.
:salute
Can't speak to 110s, but there are all sorts of fighters the Mossie can simply outfight and gain a non-HO gun solution. There are even more that don't have a clear advantage and, flown with a little panache, the Mossie will again not need to resort to an HO.
Fact is, the Mossie VI in AH is an above average fighter.
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If im flying a 110 on a deacking mission, and i come across a spit/stang/w.e that i know can run circles around me plane vs plane, Sure i'll Ho, As far as im concerned my Deacking mission is much more important than some 1v1 for personal boasting.
My bad Tyrannis... I confused you with Titanic... Titanic has recently, like 2 days ago, told me that he HOs because "If you can't beat them, join them"... Then today he told me that he likes to fly 110s and Mossies into a furball. This after I popped his 190 with a 20mm to the canopy from a high 6 position, and he lamented about the fight being so short and I commented that people who want to fight don't normally fly 190s. He was saying that because he likes to fly 110s and Mossie's into furballs that he is willing to fight.
Of course, later, he HO'd me with his 110 over a V Base.
It's all good I guess. I take a HO shot occaisionally, but I don't make excuses for it when I do. I'm simply amused by this thread and the OP's attempt to justify his lameness. The guys who say, "You shouldn't have been in front of my guns" make some sense to me... The ones who say, "I don't HO... Well... I don't HO unless you do this... Or unless I am flying this... "... Those guys are the... Well, to be perfectly honest... Tards...
I hope and pray that the "HO" shot never defines me in the AH community... It may already be too late for the Titanic...
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I will HO if depending on mood. I'll HO anyone if I don't feel like fighting. Or if I'm way outnumbered. I also HO 262's givin the Chance
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the only time it's ok to ho is when the other airplane points his nose at you, if he doesnt point his nose at you then go ahead and take a front 1/4 shot.
semp
or when they are rolling down the runway just about to get wheels up?
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I will HO if depending on mood. I'll HO anyone if I don't feel like fighting.
I can vouche for this.... ROFL he does it even when he ask lets don't before hand...... hehehe
but seriously,
there is not one rule both in this game and in Real Life that says Head On shots are not allowed, and frankly the only time I can think that HO's might not be allowed would be in some type of
dueling match where the rules are set before hand..... which most times the people I have played against dueling are not the type to take the cheap way out for the most part
the majority of the community say they frown upon HOing... but seriously after playing for some odd 15 / 16 years or whatever...... I have seen just about everyone I have ever played with or against go for the HO at least once or twice if not many times.... including myself....
If one puts themselves in the position to receive a HO while in a 1 vs 1, then they should accept it as them making a mistake and not post or voice and excuses.....
really, the players that have to have an excuse for everytime they get shotdown are the ones I laugh at more so than the player shooting someone HeadOn....
if you get shotdown, even while being ganged, it is noone's fault but your own........ regardless if HOs are involved or not.......
each of us have our own way of playing the game, everyone should encourage Good Gameplay........ but to continously whine and complain about someone HOing is not considered "encouraging Good Gameplay"....... being civil and explaining why a person should not take a low percentage shot like a HO, is "Good GamePlay Encouragement"
each and every player should be all for helping the AH community improve game play and good etiquette.........
TC
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Kill or be killed.
If you cross my gunsight, I'll take the shot.
To paraphrase Bert Gordon (George C. Scott's character in 'The Hustler') "you don't get paid for yardage. In pool, you count your money, that's how you know who won. :old:
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Technically it is always "OK" to HO, but it's a very stupid thing to do (most of the time). When you HO your giving your opponent a non maneuvering target to shoot at, which is very easy to hit. Even if you have better guns and better armor all you need is just one of his 7.7mms to hit you in the head.
There are exceptions however:
-If your in something like B-25H and there is a zero going straight at you, you can fire on the HO because if you don't he'll easily outmaneuver you and shoot you down. The same thing goes for planes such as 110, Il-2, and Ju-87.
-If you have sever structural damage (such as half wing missing) or lost an engine and someone is going straight at you there is nothing you can do but fire.
-If your protecting something like a goon (or troops) and if you don't HO you wont have time to outmaneuver him before he get's the goon.
-If it's a set of bombers that can not be allowed to drop their bombs and they are a few seconds from dropping them, again only if you do not have time to maneuver around them.
-If it's something like a 262, because it is very difficult to catch up to them from behind and if you don't fire in that HO opportunity 10 more friendlies will get shot down by him.
But if you do any of those things don't complain after you get shot down, because you chose that something else is more important than you, or would have been dead either way.
Also if you get HO'ed don't complain, because you could have turned away. And you can't call him an idiot for not having any skill to do something else because you did not have any skill to turn away.
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HO shots on buffs :rock
Taters in the cockpit will put a heavy down as fast as you please.
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Always sad to try to duck one on the merge only to be shot with the assumption on the other end that it no longer counts as an HO
After that, any shot but an established straight line HO is part of the scuffle
Jousting is lame
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:noid
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I only HO in the following circumstance;
If I think there is even a remote chance that it may possibly enter into the other pilot's mind that he may consider HOing me briefly. If I think the other guy is thinking about HOing me or if he HOed someone in the past or even thought about HOing or even saw someone HOing or even posted on the BBS an opinion on HOing.
If I think any of the above is even slightly true then the guy is certainly prone to HO you so you have to HO him first and teach him a lesson. Even if he did none of this but was HOed at any time in the past or he could be HO'ed in the future he's only waiting to HO someone. He's a flying time bomb waiting to go off (or in this case HO off).
Otherwise if you HO everyone you shouldn't be playing this game.
And it's not as if I enjoy it - I feel Im carrying out a duty to those in the above catagory. As I said HOing for it's own sake is just dweebish to the extreme - they should be banned.
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When it feels right. :x :ahand
:old: :airplane: :joystick:
:devil :D
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When it feels right. :x :ahand
:old: :airplane: :joystick:
:devil :D
:bhead
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It's ok to HO whenever you want to **** most people off. I love to face shoot!
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PF, the first time, when I said "if you can't beat them, join them", frankly, I was already angry that day at the fact that I was HOed or attempted to be HOed every sortie. (can't dodge all of those HOs). The day after, I went back to my usual flying habits, only HOing in situations I mentioned above.
When you pinged me and insta killed me in my Fw190, I wasn't angry as I was dissapointed and surprised. Everytime I fly, Im always hoping for a good fight. That insta death was kinda lame, NOT bad or dweebish, just lame in that I couldn't do anything against it. (Yoi caught me low and slow) So I said on 200 that I was looking for a fight and was pretty much annoyed by it, I NEVER called names or anything. Other guys agreed, saying there were plenty of pilots that flew the 190 like a dogfighter, and not to just HO like you said. So I can't fly 190s without being frowned upon?
As for my so called "HO", if I remember correctly, you were in a Mustang and I in a 110G. Not only did I not HO you, we both broke and into a rolling scissor. I was naturally slower than your Stang and got guns on you before you couldve on me. Twin taters solved that problem. Not only that, there were both other friendlies and enemies planes around, all of which were higher than us. Meanining, whoever wouldve won that fight had it gone longer, wouldve been picked out of the sky by the other team anyways.
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The other day I was in a B-25H OTW in to a base and saw a spixteen OTW out. He wasnt being chased, he even had elevation and speed on me. As he got to about 1500 I started figuring what I was going to do when he broke to come around and attack. I was so surprised he kept coming I actually forgot to shoot back for a moment. Who in their right mind would HO a B-25H in a spixteen ? Well he got lucky with a few shots and even tho I saw his spit break up to pieces he ended up getting the kill. I used to see the same thing when in IL2s and usually they'd come crying in here about F3 making it to effective a fighter.
Thats the kind of HO I hate. When someone has every possible advantage on you and still they choose to suicide.
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While I agree on the 3 v 1 scenario, unfortunately it is normally the 3 that are going for the HO every pass trying to get the kill before the other 2.
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When flying a Mossie
When you know you're fighting someone who will cry about it
When bored with flying and ready to do something else
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Russian Roulette...coin flipping, call it what you like, THAT is what it is, and folks who use it as their first option rarely have even 1 kill per sortie. I always aspire to kill many, (though I rarely do) But ho-ing isn't the way to get there
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I don't always HO, but when I do... I prefer LTARs. :ahand
:)
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its always OK to HO because it makes the enemy cry and i live off of those yummy tears.
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Try your darndest to get your plane offset from the enemies flight path for your merge, if you can't do that then open up with the guns! Anything other than nose to nose is a deflection shot. Don't let anybody with an overly enlarged HO range tell you different. :aok
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It is perfectly acceptable...nay it is REQUIRED. To ho a brewster in any situation on any pass.
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Lets make a list of situations where HOing is and isn't ok.
OK to do it when:
It's 3 v 1 or more
It's against a horde
It's against bombers
At extreme altitudes where you may only get one pass (unless you both bring it down to the deck)
During base defense
When you are badly damaged
When you are out of fuel
When you are saving a friendly from 3 or more cons
Against 262s
The other guy fires on you first (most important)
When it's not OK to HO:
1 v 1 situations (regardless of alt/E)
The first merge
When a friendly is dueling an enemy, unless the friendly asks for help. If the con complains, all complaints must be made against the original friendly, not the HOer that tried to save him.
Note: If there are other planes around you, still do not HO on the first pass unless you know for sure all planes involved are gangbanging you. That person you're merging with just might be calling his friends off for a 1 v 1.
When
When
There is no way to answer that since it is different for every person. There are two clear reasons arguments over HOs happen (maybe more, but those are the ones I see most of the time).
1) This one is easy. The when is it OK to HO is different for every one.
2) This is the most important, people get very upset when they are told they did HO, even though they think it is OK. Strange, its like they know they did something wrong and got called out. Normally this happens when: a) It was a clear 1 vs 1 and the HO victim is left wondering why? If he asks, hell breaks loose on 200. b) A player very vocal on 200 about how he cannot find a "fair" fight takes that shot at the merge. If asked why, sit back and enjoy the fireworks lol. c) The victim was already engaged with 3 or 4 guys and "vet" comes in and takes that shot. In this situation look for smartarse remarks on 200 if you ask why.
Bottom line, the arguments start when the victim cannot understand the reason behind it and asks why. The last thing the HOer is going to do is give some kind of explanation. From then on it is all down hill.
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As for my so called "HO", if I remember correctly, you were in a Mustang and I in a 110G.
You do not. I can't remember the last time I flew a Runstang.
I find it telling that you had enough HO events last night that you are confusing them in your memory.
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its always OK to HO because it makes the enemy cry and i live off of those yummy tears.
Griefer [n] One who griefs: a player who plays a game primarily to reduce other players’ enjoyment of it
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I'll take it if it feels like the right move at the time, I generally avoid it if there's only one bandit that's a threat to me.
The one time I will 'maliciously' take the HO is if I'm in the right mood and see this even though I start maneuvering to avoid:
4.0k
.
3.5k
.
3.0k
_|_
2.5k
_|_
2.0k
_|_
and the guy just doesn't deviate from pointing directly at me. If you're that intent on it, I'll sometimes face shoot you and laugh while doing it.
Usually I believe there are better options than the HO, but not for 'moral' reasons.
Wiley.
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You do not. I can't remember the last time I flew a Runstang.
I find it telling that you had enough HO events last night that you are confusing them in your memory.
You keep on this charade where I'm the bad guy that HOs everything I see. I do not. You're being paranoid that I'll HO you everytime. Just today, Ive fought a 2 v 1 where all three of us respected each other and did not HO once. It wasn't until friendlies came over that the fight dissapated. Like I said, I only HO in the situations I described.
If you're so bent on whooping me in a fight, send me a challenge to the DA or a remote base in the MA.
And now that remember, you were in a Ki84. Over V33/V34 on the cruddiest map ever made.
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I TRY to avoid the ho, but if I fail over and over again I will ho eventually! If there is no way for me to get around the other plane I will do what I have to do to survive the fight..
But I usually try the other options first.. And I find that I survive longer by avoiding a ho than by going for it, even if it means I'll have to start my turn before the merge. It is all about angles, and making yourself as small and fast moving profile as possible in the air.. :bolt:
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Also, If i encounter a plane i KNOW can outperform mine to a great extend, I'll take whatever shot i got on him, That includes the HO shot.
(http://www.thereisnocool.com/Yoda%20That%20is%20why%20you%20fail.jpg)
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its always OK to HO because it makes the enemy cry and i live off of those yummy tears.
what are you talking about? you don't play online...i'm sure the a.i.'s are sitting in the oclub cryin in their beer. :rolleyes:
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(http://www.thereisnocool.com/Yoda%20That%20is%20why%20you%20fail.jpg)
Grizz, bring your 262 around my p40 and i'll HO you too :t
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Grizz, bring your 262 around my p40 and i'll HO you too :t
I'm fine with that. Can I take a K4 though? My 262 is more for horde busting than actual 1v1 fighting.
As for your P40E vs Spit9-automatic ho example... You will be surprised to find that the Spit9 does not turn that much better than a P40E. So if you are going to surrender all fights to the 50/50 chances of a HO at a slight disadvantage, you are really doing yourself a disservice. May Zeus Levi strike you down with a thunderbolt.
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I look at it this way...
I will go out of my way to avoid "HOING" on the initial merge if at all possible. (the exception to this is if someone comes head on at me when I am flying a B25H... then they deserve what they get... a facefull of 50's and a 75MM)
Anyway... when dogfighting... I deliberately do not fire unless fired upon for the initial merge, and even then I will move to avoid if I can so I can try to maneuver for position and take a "safe shot".
To me... that's what this game is about. A 1 second engagement that sends one or both pilots to the tower, after a 5 minute flight just to get there is annoying. I dont mind dying... but geez... at least use some skill to kill me. Playing chicken doesnt require any.
Now... with that said, after the initial merge, all bets are off IMO. If my opponent is turning into me, doesnt quite have a gun solution, but I do... I am firing. And I expect him to do the same.
In a furball, with multiple enemies, if something passes in front of my guns and I can take a snapshot... I will. And I expect the same in return.
The idea that EVERY shot needs to be made from the rear quarters is rather silly... but in the same token, make the fight enjoyable. Use some skill, learn something from it... and become a better player for it.
No... it doesnt take 2 to HO... but there are plenty of ways to avoid one most of the time.
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im not sure what kind of ho were talking about anymore, the ones on main street or the ones in game? :lol
anywho...i think you should take a shot when you have it because you just might end up losing that shot later on due to a friendly/ack. or you could take it if your hurt and just wanna say "dont shove your guns in my face" kind of warning.
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or when they are rolling down the runway just about to get wheels up?
actually i was heading for the ack, you got on the way. and that wasnt even a ho as i was from from your left at a 45 angle.
semp
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or when they are rolling down the runway just about to get wheels up?
Ah, you are talking about the sport of kings. That's different than a HO. :aok
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If you're flying over a runway, that means either you were:
1. Vulching
2. Dropping Ords
3. Chasing Someone
I'll take a shot at you on the ground if you happen to cross my sights. Especially if you're vulching and decide to come in from my high 12 o'clock.
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When is it okay to HO? Whenever it's tactically advantageous.
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I am against the HO shot at all cost... UNLESS I am going at the other guy... OR he is coming at ME :devil
A better post may be " when is it NOT ok to ho? " :devil
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When is it okay to HO? Whenever it's tactically advantageous.
:old: One of my FPHs has spoken.
I like. :D
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When is it okay to HO? Whenever it's tactically advantageous.
I agree.
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I agree.
:old: Another has spoken.
I like more. :D
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I'll try to maneuver most of the time, but if you are in the gunsight, I will always pull the trigger.
Don't like it, stay out of the sight.
:aok
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but you will be known by your actions
I agree with Ink here. Certainly there's no prohibition against taking a HO, and if your goal is to maximize your kills I suppose it's often a wise shot to take. But I always think less of people who do it.
- oldman
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:D Is it OK to HO with 110 Rkts? It takes a lot of practice, & I try it as often as I can. :neener: No, I have no shame. :x
P.S. when we're both in turn fighters, in our 2nd or 3rd convergence, & I'm high on your 11:00, It ain't no HO, so stop cryin'. :cry
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"actually i was heading for the ack, you got on the way. and that wasnt even a ho as i was from from your left at a 45 angle.
semp"
You remember...
45 degrees off? How I get guns on you then?
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You remember...
45 degrees off? How I get guns on you then?
lol...chop throttle hard rudder
seen it, rather gamey but...
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It depends on what kind of player you are.
If your skillless, or a win the war at all cost type, your going to HO. Your going to have all of these excellent reasons why you MUST HO.
"Im clearing the air space so the buffs can get in"
"Im flying a 110,tiffy, yada-yada-yada"
"my plane is out classed"
"I'm out numbered"
"I'm defending my base"
"he was in my gunsites"
If on the other hand you play this game to have dogfights....
You won't HO on the first pass
You will avoid any head on pass that you can after that
If you should pass nose to nose you won't fire
To me this game is about out flying the other guy and shooting him down. If all I wanted to do was rack up kills I can play Xbox. I try to NEVER fire on a head to head pass, should I find myself in one (I work very hard NOT to be in that position). Any one HOing me has already conceded the fight to me. They have admitted that they can not out fly me and get the kill shot other than HOin. When I do finally give up and start HOin every loser that comes at me I know its time to take a break. A man can only take so much :D
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lol...chop throttle hard rudder
seen it, rather gamey but...
my wheels werent even up from taking off yet...
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To me this game is about out flying the other guy and shooting him down. If all I wanted to do was rack up kills I can play Xbox. I try to NEVER fire on a head to head pass, should I find myself in one (I work very hard NOT to be in that position). Any one HOing me has already conceded the fight to me. They have admitted that they can not out fly me and get the kill shot other than HOin.
I don't understand how you "surrender" the fight by HOing when it's 3 v 1 or more. 2 v 1 situations are fairly common and if the single pilot is any decent, he'll put up a real good fight and maybe even score 2 kills. 3 v 1, that's the point where if you don't take your chances, you're going to die. That's not surrendering, IMO, it's putting up the best defense you have.
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Well y'know, different people play the game for different reasons. One reason isn't necessarily more valid than another. Personally, I avoid the HO because I might get shot down or collide. However if I'm flying something tough and with big guns, I'll accept one if someone else is foolish enough to initiate it. My own style is to fly like a real pilot would, which is to say saving my virtual bellybutton is priority one. I never auger my plane for a quick remount, never do a suicide mission, and I'll run, if I can, from someone who's got the drop on me. I once got bounced by two guys in 109s while I was in a Tempest. The first one HOed, lost, and then squeaked the whole time I dueled his partner. So y'know, next time, don't go there.
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---to the original post---
HO anytime you see fit, it is the ENEMY's job to compromise to this if they wish. In the MA you learn that HO's will happen. For me, if i see a head on coming i either roll out or shoot first and ask questions later. A good enemy is a dead enemy in the MA for me but you'll see me rolling out more often than shooting because it is too risky to play chicken with a cannon bird or an armored bird <S>
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I don't understand how you "surrender" the fight by HOing when it's 3 v 1 or more. 2 v 1 situations are fairly common and if the single pilot is any decent, he'll put up a real good fight and maybe even score 2 kills. 3 v 1, that's the point where if you don't take your chances, you're going to die. That's not surrendering, IMO, it's putting up the best defense you have.
Your giving up before you even start the fight! You can win a 3 vs 1, all it takes is good sa, good timing, good shooting, and a bit of luck. You don't have to be GREAT at any of them.... certainly doesn't hurt :devil
I don't have to "kill" the other guy. I know if I did all I could, more importantly I know when I screw up. Thats what I fly for. If I fight well, I had fun. Thats whats important to me.
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I'm this way about it. I won't fire on the first HO engagement. That's just the way I am and I've been killed many times for it.
After that though, I don't care where you're at, I will shoot.
Coogan :old:
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It depends on what kind of player you are.
If your skillless, or a win the war at all cost type, your going to HO. Your going to have all of these excellent reasons why you MUST HO.
"Im clearing the air space so the buffs can get in"
"Im flying a 110,tiffy, yada-yada-yada"
"my plane is out classed"
"I'm out numbered"
"I'm defending my base"
"he was in my gunsites"
If on the other hand you play this game to have dogfights....
You won't HO on the first pass
You will avoid any head on pass that you can after that
If you should pass nose to nose you won't fire
To me this game is about out flying the other guy and shooting him down. If all I wanted to do was rack up kills I can play Xbox. I try to NEVER fire on a head to head pass, should I find myself in one (I work very hard NOT to be in that position). Any one HOing me has already conceded the fight to me. They have admitted that they can not out fly me and get the kill shot other than HOin. When I do finally give up and start HOin every loser that comes at me I know its time to take a break. A man can only take so much :D
++1 :aok
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Ho'ing is very subjective
For example,
I go head to head with you and am shot down or damaged
this is a ho, YOU broke my planez
I go head to head with you and you are shot down or damaged,
This is called taking you to school or student pilot training.
Never Hoe with less than 6 50 or a pair of 20's.
Infidelz.
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Lets make a list of situations where HOing is and isn't ok.
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQJMF7isprJhMVn0sTvddbUb2cZ8bhZstiUZnL48p0IChKu2Rn7)
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See Rules #4, #6
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Ho'ing is Vegas style odds. Being ho'd just sucks.
Just the other day, around 10k. There is a P-51 in the area tooling around. An A6M3 keeps trying to get at me and a random Bf-109K4 that swoops by me a bit. So roughly a three v one situation, though not being pressed by all three at one time. The P-51 is as timid as a three year old boy. The K4 wants to get aggressive but isn't, the Zero is just too slow and begging for me to turn fight.
My plan is to situate the P-51 out of icon range, kill the K4 then BnZ the Zero. All is well. The P-51 disappears, I fly over the Zero and head towards the K4, which is in a slightly off spot so turns into me. I'm expecting the K4 to overshoot but instead heads right towards me and at the last second goes HO. We both pull triggers, he smokes and I'm in the tower. Freshly killed by a K4 making a HO pass.
Maybe the K4 saw something different then I did but it was Titanic3 in the K4. I was annoyed but no big deal. As much my fault as his though not my intent to go head on. Is that how you saw the fight develop?
Boo
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I don't understand how you "surrender" the fight by HOing when it's 3 v 1 or more. 2 v 1 situations are fairly common and if the single pilot is any decent, he'll put up a real good fight and maybe even score 2 kills. 3 v 1, that's the point where if you don't take your chances, you're going to die. That's not surrendering, IMO, it's putting up the best defense you have.
What are the odds of winning coin flips 3 times ina row?
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If you fire on me first, I fire back. I try not to HO, and I don't fly the K4, not regularly at all.
You said the other day? I haven't flown the K4 at all in the past few days. P38s, Bf110, 109F4, F4Us and a N1K1 for base defense. Mostly 110s. :bolt:
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What are the odds of winning coin flips 3 times ina row?
What are the odds of winning all 3 coin flips at the same time?
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What are the odds of winning coin flips 3 times ina row?
Not what it would mean to me. It's not like the person is sitting there, 'Ok... It's 3v1. It is now time to bust out the HO mojo, line up on these guys one at a time and HO them to death.'
In a 3v1 (at least for me) the primary concern is avoiding bullets. If during one of my evasive maneuvers, I can adjust my trajectory slightly to take a shot at one of the enemy while still remaining as safe as you can be in a 3v1, no matter the angle, I'll do so. Sometimes this is a HO.
I think that's what is meant.
To the OP, Ink has the right of it, you will be known by your actions. Do it, or don't do it according to what you feel. There are people who will cry HO if you shoot at them from anywhere ahead of the 3-9 line.
The one critical thing to remember when it comes to HOs... If you don't HO someone, you have the moral high ground. You are a good person. Be certain to tell all and sundry around you what a swell person you are for not taking the HO shot that was presented to you, and what an evil, skill-less, win the war at any costs person the other person is for HOing and killing you. Other people love to hear about it, in as much detail as you can provide, and you will gain much respect in the community.
Wiley.
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"actually i was heading for the ack, you got on the way. and that wasnt even a ho as i was from from your left at a 45 angle.
semp"
You remember...
45 degrees off? How I get guns on you then?
Bah, I can confirm that everything that has "BK" in their name is a HOtard. We actually spent countless hours in the DA perfecting the art of HOing to make it look as if it was a shot from your 6 o'clock.
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There is commonality in all the folks who are "good" and have been around a while. It is that the "desperate kill all" mentality has left them, they prefer quality. They still want to win and will do most things to achieve it, but there are many things they will shy away from. They have learned a higher standard and try to maintain and present this standard.
Everyone starts HOing, vulching, ganging, picking and basically tarding the hell out of everything. Then you get bored and move to a new phase of AH gameplay and it usually involves GVs as well as having progressed to "cherrypicking" at the edge of someones base, even now though you have learned a higher standard in that you probably shun vulching. The next progression usually comes with choosing crappier rides cause once again you've become bored. Now this stage is frustrating cause although you are pwning noobs in your p40 you are still getting owned by better players, you still cherry pick and are somewhat ok with HOing unless it happens to you and you are firmly against vulching still. <-- This is where most players reside IMHO at the moment in AH. You are good, but not great and you are still concerned with being shot down by someone notable, "it grates on you". The next progression probably involves DA time and seeking out those better than you cause NOW you feel as though you have a chance and "you actually do" have a chance now, you may win 2-3 out of 10 against the best but they still edge you out. This level of progression usually involves no HOing because you are becoming more technical in your approach to fighting, probably settled into a ride you prefer although you are quite competant in any and you are seeing how "cheap" the HO really is, sometimes though you will up a beast and HO everything in revenge! There is a level of progression that some get to that kind of encompasses all of the above it is the level where you can take or leave most thing in AH but you honestly try to leave out the crap always, sometimes you will be pushed into the sewer but it doesn't phase you cause you already have spent your time wading thru it!
With all that said, If you are beyond level2 and you still have excuses to validate HOing then it is merely cause you have not made it thru AH puberty and are still wet behind the ears!
JUGgler
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If you fly by the nick Titanic4 I guess it's ok to Ho..
I tried to fight you the other day, you in in a P38 and I can't remember what I was in either a k4 or jug, but every single pass I was having to avoid your HO attempts and it was a 1v1. You eventually got a "deflection" on me when I wasn't able to completely avoid one of your HO attempts.
If you are going to HO just admit it and move on, no need to try to justify it, with your little list of "when it's ok", because it doesn't appear you even follow that anyway. Hell you probably could of easily beat me with out the HO attempts as I'm still rusty as hell and dying to stupid things like flying into the water & trees. :lol
I just find it funny you are complaining about HOs you appear to also do it if you are Titanic4 in game.
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I tried to fight you the other day, you in in a P38 and I can't remember what I was in either a k4 or jug, but every single pass I was having to avoid your HO attempts and it was a 1v1. You eventually got a "deflection" on me when I finally wasn't able to avoid your attempt at the Ho.
No offense, but that sounds like he played that fight perfectly. If he knew you would avoid his HO at all costs without reciprocating, then it was a low risk/high reward tactic for him. The fact that it eventually paid off demonstrates its effectiveness. I know that some will claim that it's not very sporting of him, but if I knew that my opponent was going to capitalize on my unwillingness to HO, the first thing I'd do is at least equalize his risk/reward calculations by returning fire.
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Juggler's post here makes sense for the most part. The one thing he didn't state that I think bears mentioning is, people can stagnate anywhere along that progression for a legion of reasons. One of the most common is that ultimately this is a game/hobby, and some don't find it fun to put in the time and effort to become a top shelf player. Others don't realize what they're missing. Some just don't have the reflexes/mental acuity/time to progress beyond a certain point. Some are drunk/other the entire duration of their playtime. ;)
I agree very much with Juggler's statement about where most people in the game are at. About the only quibble I'd take with that statement is whether getting shot down 'grates on people' is often independent of where they are in the progression. Some always get mad when they die all the way through, others never get mad when they die. Most are somewhere in between.
Wiley.
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No offense, but that sounds like he played that fight perfectly. If he knew you would avoid his HO at all costs without reciprocating, then it was a low risk/high reward tactic for him. The fact that it eventually paid off demonstrates its effectiveness. I know that some will claim that it's not very sporting of him, but if I knew that my opponent was going to capitalize on my unwillingness to HO, the first thing I'd do is at least equalize his risk/reward calculations by returning fire.
lol the fact it paid off is because I still had too much fuel and am flying like crap from taking 2 years off. Last time I checked it was a game anyway. What is Risk vs Reward when there is also Fun vs Bore..
TBH it doesn't matter anyway, because most people in this game will hoard, cherry pick and pretty much deny any possible 1v1s or decent fights, so HOing is just another way to deny fun fights I guess. I only replied because I found it funny he was complaining about HO's on the forum when using the very same "tactic" in game.
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It depends on what kind of player you are.
If your skillless, or a win the war at all cost type, your going to HO. Your going to have all of these excellent reasons why you MUST HO.
"Im clearing the air space so the buffs can get in"
"Im flying a 110,tiffy, yada-yada-yada"
"my plane is out classed"
"I'm out numbered"
"I'm defending my base"
"he was in my gunsites"
If on the other hand you play this game to have dogfights....
You won't HO on the first pass
You will avoid any head on pass that you can after that
If you should pass nose to nose you won't fire
To me this game is about out flying the other guy and shooting him down. If all I wanted to do was rack up kills I can play Xbox. I try to NEVER fire on a head to head pass, should I find myself in one (I work very hard NOT to be in that position). Any one HOing me has already conceded the fight to me. They have admitted that they can not out fly me and get the kill shot other than HOin. When I do finally give up and start HOin every loser that comes at me I know its time to take a break. A man can only take so much :D
+1 to this. :aok
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There is commonality in all the folks who are "good" and have been around a while. It is that the "desperate kill all" mentality has left them, they prefer quality. They still want to win and will do most things to achieve it, but there are many things they will shy away from. They have learned a higher standard and try to maintain and present this standard.
Everyone starts HOing, vulching, ganging, picking and basically tarding the hell out of everything. Then you get bored and move to a new phase of AH gameplay and it usually involves GVs as well as having progressed to "cherrypicking" at the edge of someones base, even now though you have learned a higher standard in that you probably shun vulching. The next progression usually comes with choosing crappier rides cause once again you've become bored. Now this stage is frustrating cause although you are pwning noobs in your p40 you are still getting owned by better players, you still cherry pick and are somewhat ok with HOing unless it happens to you and you are firmly against vulching still. <-- This is where most players reside IMHO at the moment in AH. You are good, but not great and you are still concerned with being shot down by someone notable, "it grates on you". The next progression probably involves DA time and seeking out those better than you cause NOW you feel as though you have a chance and "you actually do" have a chance now, you may win 2-3 out of 10 against the best but they still edge you out. This level of progression usually involves no HOing because you are becoming more technical in your approach to fighting, probably settled into a ride you prefer although you are quite competant in any and you are seeing how "cheap" the HO really is, sometimes though you will up a beast and HO everything in revenge! There is a level of progression that some get to that kind of encompasses all of the above it is the level where you can take or leave most thing in AH but you honestly try to leave out the crap always, sometimes you will be pushed into the sewer but it doesn't phase you cause you already have spent your time wading thru it!
With all that said, If you are beyond level2 and you still have excuses to validate HOing then it is merely cause you have not made it thru AH puberty and are still wet behind the ears!
JUGgler
And this is so well written, I don't know what stage I am at. But I sure know I have been through most of them.. Alot of this sounded very familiar to me. :old:
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lol the fact it paid off is because I still had too much fuel and am flying like crap from taking 2 years off. Last time I checked it was a game anyway. What is Risk vs Reward when there is also Fun vs Bore..
He HOed and you refused. That simply encouraged him to continue that tactic because it put him at no risk. I'm pretty sure it was fun for him in any event, and based on what you just said, not HOing would have simply delayed the inevitable. If he was HOing you while bemoaning its use, then he was certainly hypocritical.
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It depends on what kind of player you are.
If your skillless, or a win the war at all cost type, your going to HO. Your going to have all of these excellent reasons why you MUST HO.
"Im clearing the air space so the buffs can get in"
"Im flying a 110,tiffy, yada-yada-yada"
"my plane is out classed"
"I'm out numbered"
"I'm defending my base"
"he was in my gunsites"
Hmm fugi... am i win the warz type then? because i can name 2 of those that i have said before. Especially the "he was in my gunsights" quote
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It depends on what kind of player you are.
If your skillless, or a win the war at all cost type, your going to HO. Your going to have all of these excellent reasons why you MUST HO.
"Im clearing the air space so the buffs can get in"
"Im flying a 110,tiffy, yada-yada-yada"
"my plane is out classed"
"I'm out numbered"
"I'm defending my base"
"he was in my gunsites"
If on the other hand you play this game to have dogfights....
You won't HO on the first pass
You will avoid any head on pass that you can after that
If you should pass nose to nose you won't fire
To me this game is about out flying the other guy and shooting him down. If all I wanted to do was rack up kills I can play Xbox. I try to NEVER fire on a head to head pass, should I find myself in one (I work very hard NOT to be in that position). Any one HOing me has already conceded the fight to me. They have admitted that they can not out fly me and get the kill shot other than HOin. When I do finally give up and start HOin every loser that comes at me I know its time to take a break. A man can only take so much :D
So you can't shoot at anyone, at any point, from any front facing visible angle, or you haven't out flown them?
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He HOed and you refused. That simply encouraged him to continue that tactic because it put him at no risk. I'm pretty sure it was fun for him in any event, and based on what you just said, not HOing would have simply delayed the inevitable. If he was HOing you while bemoaning its use, then he was certainly hypocritical.
And by scoring a kill he probably thinks he accomplished something
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Hmm fugi... am i win the warz type then? because i can name 2 of those that i have said before. Especially the "he was in my gunsights" quote
well if the shoe fits..... :devil
So you can't shoot at anyone, at any point, from any front facing visible angle, or you haven't out flown them?
It's not that I "can't" I just prefer not to. I like to maneuver until I'm behind their 3-9 line and THEN take my shot.
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When to ho?
I never do except two cases:
- the opponent is a heavy momber with drones.
- the opponent is playing the "balzing guns from 1000 then extend to 5k away, return, repeat" game. After the 5th-6th pass i often lose control and ho back. I know its wrong... shame on me.
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When to ho?
I never do except two cases:
- the opponent is a heavy momber with drones.
- the opponent is playing the "balzing guns from 1000 then extend to 5k away, return, repeat" game. After the 5th-6th pass i often lose control and ho back. I know its wrong... shame on me.
:huh HOer!
:uhoh
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well if the shoe fits..... :devil
:noid
I'm 21 :D
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And by scoring a kill he probably thinks he accomplished something
Likely. At what point do we consider a kill an "accomplishment?" When neither pilot HOs? When neither pilot is rusty, flying a plane that's a poor match, and using way too much fuel?
One man's trash is another man's gold I suppose.
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Likely. At what point do we consider a kill an "accomplishment?" When neither pilot HOs? When neither pilot is rusty, flying a plane that's a poor match, and using way too much fuel?
One man's trash is another man's gold I suppose.
When one feels a sense of accomplishment it was an accomplishment for him.
For me, any individual 1v1 kill is always an accomplishment if the pilot I flew against put up a good fight and made me earn it. I also feel accomplishment when I am able to control multi plane engagements/situations. Whether that be a dogfight against 3-4, or when I am hovering above a swarm and have 1 or 2 coalt/above me that I also need to deal with.
RTBing and landing is necessary because it completes the success. I would use the analogy of eating something delicious. The taste itself is great but the act of swallowing is completion. :D
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When one feels a sense of accomplishment it was an accomplishment for him.
Exactly.
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It's OK to HO when you're against a Spit9 ... :rock
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It's OK to HO when you're against a Spit9 ... :rock
Hah! I forgot about The Spitfire Exception.
- oldman (they must be suppressed)
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Hah! I forgot about The Spitfire Exception.
- oldman (they must be suppressed)
:furious
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Hah! I forgot about The Spitfire Exception.
- oldman (they must be suppressed)
I HO Piper Saratogas...
:noid
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When one feels a sense of accomplishment it was an accomplishment for him.
For me, any individual 1v1 kill is always an accomplishment if the pilot I flew against put up a good fight and made me earn it. I also feel accomplishment when I am able to control multi plane engagements/situations. Whether that be a dogfight against 3-4, or when I am hovering above a swarm and have 1 or 2 coalt/above me that I also need to deal with.
RTBing and landing is necessary because it completes the success. I would use the analogy of eating something delicious. The taste itself is great but the act of swallowing is completion. :D
Well put.
Wiley.
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Smoking, I disagree. The point of the game is to have as much fun as possible. That usually involves 30 sec+ fights for most people. A HO ends a fight or prevent one from ever happening. It doesn't take 2 to HO. If one guy decides to fire, he's going to bring his sights to wherever you break or turn. It takes 2 NOT to HO, only takes one to end a fight prematurely.
However, like I stated, there are situations where you must take every opportunity you get because your chances of survival are low.
I agree with this statement.
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It is always ok to HO. The game allows it, Real world situations allow it (which we seem obsessed with, ask Krusty) so if you want to complain about it, avoid it. Why does this always come up? :headscratch:
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When one feels a sense of accomplishment it was an accomplishment for him.
For me, any individual 1v1 kill is always an accomplishment if the pilot I flew against put up a good fight and made me earn it. I also feel accomplishment when I am able to control multi plane engagements/situations. Whether that be a dogfight against 3-4, or when I am hovering above a swarm and have 1 or 2 coalt/above me that I also need to deal with.
RTBing and landing is necessary because it completes the success. I would use the analogy of eating something delicious. The taste itself is great but the act of swallowing is completion. :D
Though I find the Muppets to be a most annoying group of airborne individuals, you have changed my outlook on the game over the years :salute
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Here is a better question:
When is it alright to tell people how to fight, especially those who help fund the game you play?
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Here is a better question:
When is it alright to tell people how to fight, especially those who help fund the game you play?
In most cases, as I can tell, they're being given sound advice which, if followed, would increase their sense of 'accomplishment' in this game
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I ho, I ho, off to work I go. I do it cause I can and its a way to shoot the enemy down. Isn't that the name of the game? There is no rule on it and if you don't like it, then you can pay hi tech for me
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Here is a better question:
When is it alright to tell people how to fight, especially those who help fund the game you play?
Maybe, they were offering their opinion and giving you an example of what they found fun and satisfying. I don't see where you were "told how to fight". Everyone fids their fun in different way. As time goes by that also changes as per the individual. This particular individual, Grizz, has some respect here and certainly has alot of experience. You may choose to listen, understand, and act upone that opinion and advice or not.
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Maybe, they were offering their opinion and giving you an example of what they found fun and satisfying. I don't see where you were "told how to fight". Everyone fids their fun in different way. As time goes by that also changes as per the individual. This particular individual, Grizz, has some respect here and certainly has alot of experience. You may choose to listen, understand, and act upone that opinion and advice or not.
By putting reasons to ho or not to ho, you are therefore putting out the message of when it is ok to only do this attack. That is telling people how to play...it does not matter whether it is advice, or whether it will improve their fighting style, some people don't want to improve; they just want to destroy other aircraft.
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By putting reasons to ho or not to ho, you are therefore putting out the opinion of when it is ok to only do this attack. That is telling people how to play...it does not matter whether it is advice, or whether it will improve their fighting style, some people don't want to improve; they just want to destroy other aircraft.
Wrong again, but I fixed it which makes it less wrong
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By putting reasons to ho or not to ho, you are therefore putting out the message of when it is ok to only do this attack. That is telling people how to play...it does not matter whether it is advice, or whether it will improve their fighting style, some people don't want to improve; they just want to destroy other aircraft.
I'm not telling you how to play, if you want to fly a sector for 10 minutes then die 2 seconds after you get there, be my guest. This is how I play and how I *wish* (<---important word here) that everyone would play. No need to get offended by my post. It's a game, and if you have fun doing stuff that you do (HOing, vulching, picking) then that's YOUR thing. MINE is a little bit different.
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By putting reasons to ho or not to ho, you are therefore putting out the message of when it is ok to only do this attack. That is telling people how to play...it does not matter whether it is advice, or whether it will improve their fighting style, some people don't want to improve; they just want to destroy other aircraft.
The OP was soliciting opinions on the matter, learned folks offered same as to how to increase numbers in the bolded area, and kids are incredibly easily offended :old:
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I dont get offended by those that do but I dont because Im a gentlemen (not very good at it either cos I dont get any practice).This is the Ho`in thread ? :old:
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Never.
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Never.
always.
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well if the shoe fits..... :devil
It's not that I "can't" I just prefer not to. I like to maneuver until I'm behind their 3-9 line and THEN take my shot.
I used to be all about saddling someone...my first 4 years or so that's all I thought about...I dreamed about.....I wanted them to "know" they were beat.....best way is to saddle them........but that is not true.....if you set up the angle and kill them faster no matter the angle........you beat them.....so I now go for angles, will definitely avoid the HO for the most part, but in the MA anything goes if they are flying stupidly i will take the HO shot.....
someone said before HO's "keep the fight honest" and I cant agree more, if you know they wont fire in a HO...then you fly by with out concern, and then its just who can pull the stick faster...with a possible HO shot it makes you think in other terms.....ie.... How to get around him with out letting him get guns.
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It's not that I "can't" I just prefer not to. I like to maneuver until I'm behind their 3-9 line and THEN take my shot.
I like to kill the enemy the first chance I get that puts myself at no risk. Since HO's put me at significant risk I avoid these. Since front quarter shots put me at no risk, I pounce on these.
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I like to kill the enemy the first chance I get that puts myself at no risk. Since HO's put me at significant risk I avoid these. Since front quarter shots put me at no risk, I pounce on these.
Those few degrees of difference probably comprise most of the 200 talk on any given night :furious
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I used to fly around in a Mossie and HO everything in sight and then love the name in lights from my ill-gotten gains. Then I got into a discussion with WMLute about it, and he sent me the below email I thought I would share. To this day, I will not HO at all, even at a loss. I think it is kind of like kicking someone in the junk or you are the sort which is more interested in name in lights than actually learning how to fly. <S>
Re: (No subject)
« Sent to: dirtdart on: June 28, 2008, 06:19:15 AM »
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http://www.netaces.org/
the trainers page is a fount of knowledge. (tons of info there)
shaw has excellent writeups on the various planes, but it's somewhat outdated. Still it is really good stuff. 10 years ago I printed out almost everything on that site, put in in a 3-ring binder, and I would pour over it during breaks at work and in my free time. (Eventually I had 4 3-ring binders full of plane info, flight tactics, ets)
Gonzo is one of the "great ones" of the ww2 flight sim community. His exploits are legendary. He setup a handy website that will allow you to compare the diff. aircraft. Very usefull.
Netaces has been around for years and years, and is chocked full of important stuff that you need to learn.
As far as training, you can email trainers@flyaceshigh.com and they all get it. They are a helpfull bunch who have vast amounts of knowledge and can teach most seasoned "vets" in the game a thing or two.
As far as a plane, well, they really don't matter that much. It's 80% pilot and only 20% plane (in my humble opinion) so I would suggest sticking with that Spit VIII and learning ACM. There is no magical ride that will make you a better pilot.
A crappy pilot in a Spit XVI will usually die to a good pilot in a p40e. It's the pilot not the plane that matters. So work on your piloting ability. Log some hours with TC, WideWing, Murdr, or any of the Trainers and practice practice practice.
Good luck with it all, and I hope next time we tangle it's a great fight and you shoot my arse down. I would rather die in a great fight than win 50 easy ones.
<S> sir
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As far as training, you can email trainers@flyaceshigh.com and they all get it. They are a helpfull bunch who have vast amounts of knowledge and can teach most seasoned "vets" in the game a thing or two.
As far as a plane, well, they really don't matter that much. It's 80% pilot and only 20% plane (in my humble opinion) so I would suggest sticking with that Spit VIII and learning ACM. There is no magical ride that will make you a better pilot.
A crappy pilot in a Spit XVI will usually die to a good pilot in a p40e. It's the pilot not the plane that matters. So work on your piloting ability. Log some hours with TC, WideWing, Murdr, or any of the Trainers and practice practice practice.
[/quote/]
"Hamburger is still hamburger, no matter what you wrap it in". Anonymous F-4E fighter pilot after hammering an F-15A in DACT.
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When is alright to HO? Never! Or Always, or sometimes, depending on who you listen to. :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:
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Take note of the success rates of those in each camp
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someone said before HO's "keep the fight honest" and I cant agree more, if you know they wont fire in a HO...then you fly by with out concern, and then its just who can pull the stick faster...with a possible HO shot it makes you think in other terms.....ie.... How to get around him with out letting him get guns.
Agree, 100%...
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So tonight, first off this map just SUCKS! It's flying over the Himalays to get into anything. Why do we have this crappy map?!?!
Then when we get to the fight, I was ho'd in all five fights. Just maddening. Yes, it's about avoiding and being a better pilot but when nimrod after nimrod flys through just holding their trigger down...makes for such an enjoyable evening. I think I'll take a week off.
Boo
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Remember the 3rd Mad Max Movie, Thunderdome?
Rule No. 1 - There are no rules.
Rule No. 2 - See Rule No. 1.
Seriously, though, while I do like front quarter shots, if my target sees me coming and it looks like they are turning to HO. Oh, well.
Cross my gunsight and I will shoot.
Just one old man's opinion. :old:
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A better thread would be "Why do you HO?". It would be a treasure of why and comments from people that do but claim they don't.
If you willingly walk into a ring to fight and all you do is go for the kick in the nuts, because you can, don;t expect much respect from the <insert fighting sport> community. There is only one reason to fight like that. Get the kill/win and see your name in lights either because you can't do it any other way or because you need your name in lights to maintain the "I am the best" status. Claiming you only faked the kick in the nuts or it was a kick on the leg instead is BS (in my opinion). If you guys thought it was really OK, no one would ever get mad when asked why or deny doing it by claiming 1 degree deflection nut kick. :lol
Better yet, if you jump in a ring that a couple or more guys are already fighting and you run around them looking for an opportunity to Kick someone in the nuts, don;t expect any respect either.
Here is the hypocrisy guys. So far, no one has said anything about the HOs that cause the complains. Every one that is for HOing is presenting examples that it could be fine by any ones standards. Do any of you that think it is always OK mind explaining why would you come in for the HO when someone is already involved in a fight with one or more cons? Risking a collision and damage in the process and ending someone else fight and stealing his kill? And you know that was not the only fight available so lets try some other reason. So, any aces care to explain how or why is that acceptable and should be practiced at all times or are we going to stick with the sanitized examples of going for the HO?
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You'll never catch me complaining on 200 about a HO (wouldn't that light up the chat??) But if there is 1 HO I despise, it's the chump that will HO you in a 2-3-4 v 1 fight. Those are some of the best fights I've had in the MA because it forces you to have great SA, anticipate and plan your maneuvers. A real chess game in 3d. But when you got one clown that won't take a minute to get an angle, but just barrels in guns blazing on top of the advantage of numbers, I just shake my head.
In a 1v1 merge, and I'm staring down your gun barrels, maybe I'll HO you, maybe I won't..** just depends on my mood. If I don't feel like HOing you.. I'll avoid you and you NEVER EVER will land telling hits. If you show me a slightly off angle merge, and I know you arn't going to HO.. fights on.
** Does not apply to brews. I take any shot I can get on those over modeled POS's any time, any where.
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I shot titanic in the face a few nights ago. :D
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You'll never catch me complaining on 200 about a HO (wouldn't that light up the chat??) But if there is 1 HO I despise, it's the chump that will HO you in a 2-3-4 v 1 fight. Those are some of the best fights I've had in the MA because it forces you to have great SA, anticipate and plan your maneuvers. A real chess game in 3d. But when you got one clown that won't take a minute to get an angle, but just barrels in guns blazing on top of the advantage of numbers, I just shake my head.
I have a question about this scenario. I've occasionally been number 3 or 4 in on a guy in the past who's turning for his life.
In those instances, from the time I committed to engaging the guy until I actually pulled the trigger, he's quite often made 2 or 3 or more turns in that time. If you're facing him after all those maneuvers, why would you expect that he not shoot you in the face?
Wiley.
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I have a question about this scenario. I've occasionally been number 3 or 4 in on a guy in the past who's turning for his life.
In those instances, from the time I committed to engaging the guy until I actually pulled the trigger, he's quite often made 2 or 3 or more turns in that time. If you're facing him after all those maneuvers, why would you expect that he not shoot you in the face?
Wiley.
:rofl Why are you even there is the better question. It cannot be for the fight since 4 vs 1 is only fun for the 1, it cant be for the kill since you have a very small chance of getting it (the other guys may have rounds in him already) so at best you have a 25% or less of getting it, it can't be cause it is smart game play since you just gave up speed and alt to join; :rofl Why are you there? What are you trying to accomplish?
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When is it alright to HO?
When there is no chance of being shot back.
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When is it alright to HO?
When there is no chance of being shot back.
Thats not a HO then, unless he is out of ammo :lol
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:rofl Why are you even there is the better question.
Simple. The guy had been tying up the 2 or 3 other guys for the last couple minutes and there's more red inbound. Sometimes it was squaddies that couldn't put the guy away (Ink flying as Mortis at the time). It wasn't something I did often. It wasn't something I looked for.
it can't be cause it is smart game play since you just gave up speed and alt to join; :rofl Why are you there? What are you trying to accomplish?
I didn't have that much alt, and I tend to fly stuff that zooms well. I didn't lose much E to do it.
What I was trying to accomplish was to get 3-4 people to stop playing with their food so they could be available to deal with the incoming bandits instead of getting picked off the guy they'd piled up on.
Wiley.
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Thats not a HO then, unless he is out of ammo :lol
So then you could read my statement as 'it's almost never alright to HO' :)
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So then you could read my statement as 'it's almost never alright to HO' :)
:furious
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When is it alright to HO?
when dedalos is the other guy! :D
:rock
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when dedalos is the other guy! :D
:rock
I'd put you on the list, but you are already on it :furious
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Here is the hypocrisy guys. So far, no one has said anything about the HOs that cause the complains. Every one that is for HOing is presenting examples that it could be fine by any ones standards.
HO's are fine by my standards. I can't think of a time off-hand when I really feel like it matters if my opponent wants to try for an HO. I honestly expect to be shot at if I allow my opponent to get his guns on me, regardless of where my nose is pointed. If he gets guns on me, I've screwed up. If he's got guns on me and my only option is to face him at the same time, I've really screwed up.
Do any of you that think it is always OK mind explaining why would you come in for the HO when someone is already involved in a fight with one or more cons? Risking a collision and damage in the process and ending someone else fight and stealing his kill?
I really don't have a problem with someone trying to HO me. So I guess that means I think it's always ok? I don't like getting ganged (if for no other reason than it usually means I screwed up). That said, if I'm getting ganged (3 or more on one) their individual choice of tactics no longer matters to me...
"Thinking it's always ok" doesn't mean "I come in for the HO"; I don't go for it. I just won't complain if the other guy does (it's not a good enough tactic for my inflated ego, and I stand too great of a chance of being shot if I go for it). I also think it's fine if my opponent wants to fly any plane he chooses (or fly with a wingman, or be in a big squad, or capture a town), and I don't/won't complain about it.
I like to think I'm good enough to withstand whatever my opponent throws at me, even if it's an HO. I'd feel cheated if my opponent held off on shooting me for a silly reason like where my nose is pointed!
Actually, (if I had to rate it) I think I'd rank an "HO-whiner" a rung or three lower than an "HO'er" on the great totem pole of life.
And you know that was not the only fight available so lets try some other reason. So, any aces care to explain how or why is that acceptable and should be practiced at all times or are we going to stick with the sanitized examples of going for the HO?
Sheesh! Over-generalizing a bit??? "Practice at all times"???? I think an immelmann is a fine move, but I wouldn't think it's want to be utilized at all times. An HO really isn't any different.
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when dedalos is the other guy! :D
:rock
:lol :lol :lol
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HO's are fine by my standards. I can't think of a time off-hand when I really feel like it matters if my opponent wants to try for an HO. I honestly expect to be shot at if I allow my opponent to get his guns on me, regardless of where my nose is pointed. If he gets guns on me, I've screwed up. If he's got guns on me and my only option is to face him at the same time, I've really screwed up.
We had this discussion couple of years ago (been that long?). It's really an anything goes in the MA. It's almost pointless to have a 1 v 1 in the MA and expect a clean fight because of the competitive nature of the MA and dweebish nature as well. I have adopted a semi-ho 1st before I get ho'd because if I don't and show the belly of my plane in a 2nd or 3rd merge, I'll get shot down.
So now I don't give a rats toe if someone has an issue with it or ho-whine on 200 because I will lay out the facts and laugh at him. If I try for the clean fight, 3 more dweebs errrrrrrrrr cons will converge and take me out. Was it worth it? No.
I feel comfortable with my 1 v1 skills but I need to clean up my hoing ERRRRRRRRRRRRRR semi-hoing technique a bit. :O
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Some call a high 11, 12, or 1 O'clock a HO but that's the best way to kill bombers. :banana:
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I have a question about this scenario. I've occasionally been number 3 or 4 in on a guy in the past who's turning for his life.
In those instances, from the time I committed to engaging the guy until I actually pulled the trigger, he's quite often made 2 or 3 or more turns in that time. If you're facing him after all those maneuvers, why would you expect that he not shoot you in the face?
Wiley.
If you are the 1 in the 1 v many, you are justified in taking any shot you get, but it would be a shame to out maneuver all those guys just to die or take damage in a HO ( speaking from experience here) avoid the nube and his HO.
On the other hand if you are one of several who has made repeated runs on this guy and all you get is his nose, then, my friend you are being out flown handily.
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Sheesh! Over-generalizing a bit??? "Practice at all times"???? I think an immelmann is a fine move, but I wouldn't think it's want to be utilized at all times. An HO really isn't any different.
OK, if I take the all times out will you answer that question then? Long post but I did not see an answer to the question does cause the fights and the complaining. We agree on the rest. If you have a chance to HO me in anything less than 3 vs 1, I made a mistake but that is not the scenario I described.
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ho's are good for people that dont have enough skill or acm, to fight their opponent in a decent fight. they would much rather end it there and get a new plane, rather then learn something. i like to duck under the HO, come back and waste them from a 6 position and show them how a HO is not acm. sometimes i just stay on their 6 long enough to watch them auger because they are running from me and not paying attention as opposed to shooting them down. its much more entertaining! :D
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If you are the 1 in the 1 v many, you are justified in taking any shot you get, but it would be a shame to out maneuver all those guys just to die or take damage in a HO ( speaking from experience here) avoid the nube and his HO.
Certainly it's not a risk-free endeavour, but when I'm the 1 and the guy is pulling G's as opposed to having set it up from a ways out, I'll risk it sometimes.
On the other hand if you are one of several who has made repeated runs on this guy and all you get is his nose, then, my friend you are being out flown handily.
Never said that wasn't the case. Doesn't mean we don't want him down. :)
Wiley.
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ho's are good for people that dont have enough skill or acm, to fight their opponent in a decent fight. they would much rather end it there and get a new plane, rather then learn something. i like to duck under the HO, come back and waste them from a 6 position and show them how a HO is not acm. sometimes i just stay on their 6 long enough to watch them auger because they are running from me and not paying attention as opposed to shooting them down. its much more entertaining! :D
I can't tell you how many times holier-than-thou, "non-hoers," ho-whine on 200 sticks ho'd me when they realizing they are losing the 1 v 1 fights against me. They start clean, and end like a dweeb, consequently staying silent on 200.
Incidently, they may happen to be higher rank sticks so clean fights don't mean @!#@$%. A) it's hypocracy B) these are relativly good sticks that throw their ethics down the toilet to get the kill.
Clean fights mean a faster death most times and still counts as one. :old:
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B) these are relativly good sticks that throw their ethics down the toilet to get the kill.
"Good" sticks often do whatever it takes to get a kill. Reupping from a base after you've been shot down isn't terribly fun, and it can take a long time to get back into the action again. Dying has tangible costs in time and may even sway the balance of power in a massive furball. In that context, is it very surprising that "good" sticks don't want to die and will throw out "ethics" to obtain a kill? It might be disappointing to you, but it's hardly surprising and not terribly unethical. It is entirely rational.
Keep in mind that these are fights where, by your own admission, you would have won except for the HO. In that case, your opponent had every reason to use it - and it worked. It wound up becoming an effective tactic to counter your superior skill.
Edit: And yes, they're hypocrites if they denounce HOs while employing them as the tactic of last resort.
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"Good" sticks often do whatever it takes to get a kill. Reupping from a base after you've been shot down isn't terribly fun, and it can take a long time to get back into the action again. Dying has tangible costs in time and may even sway the balance of power in a massive furball. In that context, is it very surprising that "good" sticks don't want to die and will throw out "ethics" to obtain a kill? It might be disappointing to you, but it's hardly surprising and not terribly unethical. It is entirely rational.
Keep in mind that these are fights where, by your own admission, you would have won except for the HO. In that case, your opponent had every reason to use it - and it worked. It wound up becoming an effective tactic to counter your superior skill.
Let me clarify as I agree 100% with what you said. Mainly "ethics" in MA is a oximoron. And a "good" stick is defined differenly by any and every player. Perhaps I was not "good" for allowing the ho to happen? Perfectly reasonable argument.
But in the end either i'll say "gf" on 200 or say nothing. I won't start with HO-tard, at least not anymore.
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I really do fail to see where "ethics" and HO's have even the slightest correlation???
If they do, then the other "tactics" in the game must correlate ethically as well??? Is turn-fighting "ethical"? How about rolling? Immelmann's? What if I fire while rolling and performing an immelmann at the same time, while dropping a notch of flaps and adjusting my heading by SEVERAL degrees?
I don't EVER "go for" the HO. I ALWAYS avoid it. But I don't do it because I think its unfair, ungentlemanly, unethical, unskillful, or any other bogus reason I've ever seen used to belittle those who use it... And, I've taken shots that the other guy may not have liked...
I certainly don't avoid it in order to artificially make the fight last longer.
In reality, I avoid the HO for selfish reasons, which is really what Levi alluded to. I find it too dangerous, and too time consuming if I fail. Realistically, I'm going to kill my opponent as quickly (and safely) as possible, every single chance I get. Yes, that means I avoid the Ho. It doesn't mean I'm more "classy" as a result.
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I really do fail to see where "ethics" and HO's have even the slightest correlation???
If they do, then the other "tactics" in the game must correlate ethically as well??? Is turn-fighting "ethical"? How about rolling? Immelmann's? What if I fire while rolling and performing an immelmann at the same time, while dropping a notch of flaps and adjusting my heading by SEVERAL degrees?
I don't EVER "go for" the HO. I ALWAYS avoid it. But I don't do it because I think its unfair, ungentlemanly, unethical, unskillful, or any other bogus reason I've ever seen used to belittle those who use it... And, I've taken shots that the other guy may not have liked...
I certainly don't avoid it in order to artificially make the fight last longer.
In reality, I avoid the HO for selfish reasons, which is really what Levi alluded to. I find it too dangerous, and too time consuming if I fail. Realistically, I'm going to kill my opponent as quickly (and safely) as possible, every single chance I get. Yes, that means I avoid the Ho. It doesn't mean I'm more "classy" as a result.
awesome :salute
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Ethics? Ethics are about moral dilemmas. There's no moral question here. It's not even a question of sportsmanship, since that would require a general agreement on the expected rules and behaviour, and this does not exist. It's a question of preference. If you don't like it, don't do it. If you don't like it done to you, don't accept the HO.
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OK, if I take the all times out will you answer that question then? Long post but I did not see an answer to the question does cause the fights and the complaining. We agree on the rest. If you have a chance to HO me in anything less than 3 vs 1, I made a mistake but that is not the scenario I described.
I'm not avoiding your question, I just don't really understand it the way you have it worded.
Are you upset about the HO? Yes, I think it's acceptable, anytime someone wants to try it on me. I always expect it, and always do my best to not get hit with it. Give it your best shot, and shoot me if you can. It's what we're here for. Actually, I intend to make that poor opportunity for you to HO me your absolute best chance of beating me. Better take advantage of it while you can :D
Are you upset about ganging? Yes, I think it's acceptable, and if someone wants to do that, go for it. Again, I always expect it when multiple cons are around, so do my best to avoid it and even to control the situation, if I can. Some of my absolute favorite, most-memorable fights have come as a result of being outnumbered, out-E'ed, out-turned, or whatever. "I" won't gang, because I see no "sport" in it. I win almost all of the 1 vs. 1 fights I'm in, and see zero thrill in having "help". So, again, I'm avoiding ganging someone for selfish reasons... The thrill of ganging someone isn't worth my time. I'm not really being "classy" by avoiding the gang. Heck, I'm often hoping my countryman will die so I can jump in, lol.
Are you upset about the combination of ganging and HOing? Yes, I think it's acceptable.
I dislike being ganged, much more than I dislike being HO'ed. I dislike someone avoiding the HO for "ethical" reasons much more than I dislike being HO'ed.
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I really do fail to see where "ethics" and HO's have even the slightest correlation???
If they do, then the other "tactics" in the game must correlate ethically as well??? Is turn-fighting "ethical"? How about rolling? Immelmann's? What if I fire while rolling and performing an immelmann at the same time, while dropping a notch of flaps and adjusting my heading by SEVERAL degrees?
I don't EVER "go for" the HO. I ALWAYS avoid it. But I don't do it because I think its unfair, ungentlemanly, unethical, unskillful, or any other bogus reason I've ever seen used to belittle those who use it... And, I've taken shots that the other guy may not have liked...
I certainly don't avoid it in order to artificially make the fight last longer.
In reality, I avoid the HO for selfish reasons, which is really what Levi alluded to. I find it too dangerous, and too time consuming if I fail. Realistically, I'm going to kill my opponent as quickly (and safely) as possible, every single chance I get. Yes, that means I avoid the Ho. It doesn't mean I'm more "classy" as a result.
We have a winner. :aok Always respected the Mountain Man!
:salute
Way
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I really do fail to see where "ethics" and HO's have even the slightest correlation???
They don't. That was the point I was hoping to get across. See my reply to "Dead Man Flying" above. I was originally pointing out that some people whine about the ho and complain about it on 200; they act as if some unwritten rule was broken in the MA of all places, they often HO when they cant establish angles. I am just saying that they can be hypocrites when they whine and bully, then they do it themselves.
So no, hoing is part of the game and is fair game, as much as I dislike it.
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I have a shade account, using them simultanously while flying EZ mode planes, Spit-16 and 190D therefore allowing the HO'ing of myself.
Someday I hope to come to the relization I am a dweeb and have No Skillz''s and throw off the error of my ways.
This will be my path to AH fullfillment once I start down it.
:salute
HL
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:aok :old:
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last post in response to SEraider. :old:
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They don't. That was the point I was hoping to get across. See my reply to "Dead Man Flying" above. I was originally pointing out that some people whine about the ho and complain about it on 200; they act as if some unwritten rule was broken in the MA of all places, they often HO when they cant establish angles. I am just saying that they can be hypocrites when they whine and bully, then they do it themselves.
So no, hoing is part of the game and is fair game, as much as I dislike it.
I know Raider, I wasn't really aiming that at you.
Rather (as you bring up) the "unwritten rule" idea is where the "ethics" of the game would seem to come into play?
I really like your last line above, lol! Wasn't it Plato who took the question of ethics and measured it basically by the happiness/unhappiness an action caused?
I really don't like being shot from any angle, by any opponent :D I do my best to avoid it... Whether I'm shot in the face, or in the back, I'm down, and have to suffer through lifting and flying out again... When I've played football, I disliked being scored upon.
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Are you upset about the combination of ganging and HOing? Yes, I think it's acceptable.
I suppose you have just proven Stellaris' contention that sportsmanship requires a consensus on what constitute acceptable standards of behavior. As I read your post, you believe there aren't any. That's fine, even though I think it's a little bid sad, but the fact that the HO and ganging discussions arise every few months - and have done so since way back in the AW days - suggests that there is a very large group of people in this game who have a sense of minimum sportsmanship standards.
- oldman
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there is a very large group of people in this game who have a sense of minimum sportsmanship standards.
- oldman
Without question.
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Alas, a large group is not a consensus. Nor is there a written set of rules to refer to.
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Alas, a large group is not a consensus. Nor is there a written set of rules to refer to.
There's only one rule;
Rule #1 Don't be a dick
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I think of the ho as head on at the first merge. When dogfighting someone and angles line up for a frontal shot I will take it. You have to be aggressive and kill quickly or you are fodder for his Friends as you try to get an "approved" shot. It may be different if you are alone in the sky with one enemy and want to prolong the dance.
I've had a FEW that group PMed me for killing a mate who hoed at every opportunity. Well my leaking, smoking, broken plane still was deadly fool.
Many cry Ho in disapproval of being killed thinking their nose is off limits to attack. :headscratch:
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Even in today's real world of air combat, there's nothing a good shot "in the snot locker". -----> :airplane:
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Even in today's real world of air combat, there's nothing a good shot "in the snot locker". -----> :airplane:
Right, because firing a guided missile from 10s of miles away some how translates into dog fighting in a game :rofl
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Right, because firing a guided missile from 10s of miles away some how translates into dog fighting in a game :rofl
10s? I thought it's hundreds. :aok
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Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't today pilots only allowed to fire at visual range? Or was that only Vietnam?
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Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't today pilots only allowed to fire at visual range? Or was that only Vietnam?
if theres an enemy dot on your radar, by all means fire...but im sure your thinking about vietnam as the missles werent that great.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't today pilots only allowed to fire at visual range? Or was that only Vietnam?
:rofl If that was true they would all be dead
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10s? I thought it's hundreds. :aok
It is, I just figured I'd include other countries also :lol
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:rofl If that was true they would all be dead
Well that was the rule back in Vietnam...and there are Vietnam pilots still alive today...I'm just not sure if it's still the same today.
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Well that was the rule back in Vietnam...and there are Vietnam pilots still alive today...I'm just not sure if it's still the same today.
I was correcting you on "today's pilots". Vietnam was a few years back if I am not mistaken ;)
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There's only one rule;
Rule #1 Don't be a dick
Ah yes, but the problem that produces 14 page threads on the subject is, everybody's got a different definition of what a dick move is.
Wiley.
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Ah yes, but the problem that produces 14 page threads on the subject is, everybody's got a different definition of what a dick move is.
Wiley.
id give my definition but i would get banned forever :lol
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id give my definition but i would get banned forever :lol
well let's hear it then (well see) :devil
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well let's hear it then (well see) :devil
nooo...:lol
im good. :aok
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...what constitute acceptable standards of behavior. As I read your post, you believe there aren't any. That's fine, even though I think it's a little bid sad...
Any?
I wouldn't take it to nearly that extreme, first of all. We're only talking about two very specific behaviors (Hoing and ganging) sometimes separately, and sometimes in combination. Personally, I believe there are more behaviors than that at play in AH. Also, just because my standards may not match yours on these two items, that doesn't mean we don't agree on many other facets...
And while I find both behaviors (even in combination) acceptable, doesn't mean I find them favorable, or desirable. It simply means I won't condemn them off-hand.
My personal sense of sportsmanship is quite high, and as such I don't allow myself to partake in many of the "normal" behaviors of the MA. That still doesn't mean I condemn the behavior; merely that I consider it "beneath" me.
but the fact that the HO and ganging discussions arise every few months - and have done so since way back in the AW days - suggests that there is a very large group of people in this game who have a sense of minimum sportsmanship standards.
No, it doesn't. It just means that these two topics don't pass away for long before they resurface. That could be explained by a vocal minority... How do you arrive at a "quantity" from a rate of recurrence? One person could bring a topic up once a day for the next year, and it wouldn't mean there was a "large group" involved, just a high rate of recurrence.
And how does a vocal group equate to a level of sportsmanship? I consider the vocal "non-HO'ers" to be showing a lower level of sportsmanship than the rest of the populace... Similar (but not quite the same) to the athlete that whines at a refs call. To your point of these two arguments popping up repeatedly, doing a search on those topics would reveal my arguments as to why (if you were that interested).
I'd also point out that I feel many of the non-HO group are playing along to gain favor of those they look up to, or due to peer pressure, or simply because it's easier to follow than to lead, etc... Do they know "why", or do they follow because they're easily swayed?
And the "large group" may very well seem vastly larger than it is, simply because those who have no issue with the HO aren't as adamantly (and vocally) defending their stance, so seem smaller by comparison. Loud group vs. quiet group, which is larger? (This would be one of those questions from school, where the answer is "not enough information").
I could toss in that the non-HO group as a whole has also seem (IMO) more disrespectful and confrontational than the "pro-HO group". I see derogatory comments slung at those who are accused (rightly or wrongly) of HOing every single time I log into the game. How does that equate to a higher level of sportsmanship?
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I could toss in that the non-HO group as a whole has also seem (IMO) more disrespectful and confrontational than the "pro-HO group". I see derogatory comments slung at those who are accused (rightly or wrongly) of HOing every single time I log into the game. How does that equate to a higher level of sportsmanship?
Does a sense of sportsmanship preclude complaining about perceived bad sportsmanship? Not so sure I would agree with that. Where's the fun in having a high horse if you can't take it out for a ride now and then?
For my part I don't ho because it's rude and I don't like it done to me. Golden rule and all that.
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Does a sense of sportsmanship preclude complaining about perceived bad sportsmanship? Not so sure I would agree with that. Where's the fun in having a high horse if you can't take it out for a ride now and then?
For my part I don't ho because it's rude and I don't like it done to me. Golden rule and all that.
What's rude about it?
I can see getting on the high horse every now and again, sure. I kind of like the idea, actually, if it's deserved.
In this case though, I see it as a fantasy horse, at best.
That puts it into a class more-closely resembling "putting on airs" than "getting on a high horse..."
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Right, because firing a guided missile from 10s of miles away some how translates into dog fighting in a game :rofl
No, it translates into a kill. Don't read something into my statement that I didn't say.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't today pilots only allowed to fire at visual range? Or was that only Vietnam?
That depends on ROE.
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Shoot when you can, expect "sportsmanship" and you are dead. That's the sport we're playing. :angel:
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What's rude about it?
I can see getting on the high horse every now and again, sure. I kind of like the idea, actually, if it's deserved.
In this case though, I see it as a fantasy horse, at best.
That puts it into a class more-closely resembling "putting on airs" than "getting on a high horse..."
I think hoing is rude, sure. I'm looking for a fight and shooting someone in the face is not much of a fight. Especially if the hoer is the second or third plane in, which is where most of the successful hos happen.
It's not war after all; it's a game. And a game does imply some standard of sportsmanship, although with the anonymity of the Internet some players choose to ignore that.
As for complaining, most of the hoing complaints are done with an eye to changing the hoer's behavior. As with all the other complaints of ganging and hording on 200 and on here for the most part.
Seems to be the way the community works. Social obloquy is a tool players use to try and change gameplay that they find objectionable, of which hoing is one.
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I think hoing is rude, sure. I'm looking for a fight and shooting someone in the face is not much of a fight. Especially if the hoer is the second or third plane in, which is where most of the successful hos happen.
It's not war after all; it's a game. And a game does imply some standard of sportsmanship, although with the anonymity of the Internet some players choose to ignore that.
As for complaining, most of the hoing complaints are done with an eye to changing the hoer's behavior. As with all the other complaints of ganging and hording on 200 and on here for the most part.
Seems to be the way the community works. Social obloquy is a tool players use to try and change gameplay that they find objectionable, of which hoing is one.
Yea, I can see where you're coming from with your social obloquy avenue. After all it's really the same tactic I'm using here, no?
And again, the "sportsmanship" argument really doesn't apply when it comes to HO's, nor does the argument that it somehow degrades the fight. Actually, I think you're about 180 degrees off there. I think a lack of "Ho-threat" would absolutely destroy any semblance of legitimacy to the fights in AH. The HO "threat" is an absolutely vital component, even if it doesn't occur.
I can see the sportsmanship argument applying when it comes to ganging, in at least a fair share of instances (but not all, certainly). There are definitely instances where a 3v1 is a fair fight. 4 on 1? Seldom... 5 on 1? I've witnessed fights where Shane was alone vs 5 determined pilots, and those 5 poor guys didn't stand a chance (heck, I was one of them)...
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What's rude about it?
I can see getting on the high horse every now and again, sure. I kind of like the idea, actually, if it's deserved.
In this case though, I see it as a fantasy horse, at best.
That puts it into a class more-closely resembling "putting on airs" than "getting on a high horse..."
We have had this argument before so I am not going to go round and round again with a game of words.
What it comes down to is how you play the game, period. Players like mtnman and others play the game for the kill. For them it is unimportant "how" they get the kill, only that they get it. This goes for every newbi dweeb all the way up the skill ladder to players well skilled like mtnman.
On the other hand there are those like me, and Shiv and many others who play this game for the fight. To us, out flying and "saddling up" to then saw a wing off the other guy is what its all about for us. To us there is an "honor" to the fight, after all its the whole reason for being there.
It's kinda like having a shoot out at high noon. The clock strikes 12, we turn towards the other player and flip our over coat back behind the holster to clear our draw of our trusty 6 gun. Mean while the other guy does the same only to reveal a couple of uzi's. It just kinda takes the fun out of the fight!
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Yea, I can see where you're coming from with your social obloquy avenue. After all it's really the same tactic I'm using here, no?
Got me there, lol.
And again, the "sportsmanship" argument really doesn't apply when it comes to HO's, nor does the argument that it somehow degrades the fight. Actually, I think you're about 180 degrees off there. I think a lack of "Ho-threat" would absolutely destroy any semblance of legitimacy to the fights in AH. The HO "threat" is an absolutely vital component, even if it doesn't occur.
I can sort of see your point, But there were no HOs in Air Warrior. Well there were but they had no effect due to the hit bubble so it came down to the same thing. And the fights were fun, even without the ho threat. So I'm not sure how vital a component the ho threat is.
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There is no right or wrong to head ons......its just dumb.
You have put your self infront of the other guys guns hoping against all odds that your some how going to get lucky.
It takes two to HO. One might be trying more than the other but in the end both sides have defacto decided that each's guns are pointing at the other.....................
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Got me there, lol.
I can sort of see your point, But there were no HOs in Air Warrior. Well there were but they had no effect due to the hit bubble but it came down to the same thing. And the fights were fun, even without the ho threat. So I'm not sure how vital a component the ho threat is.
I completely agree with Mtnmn the HO keeps the fight honest....to get rid of it, would ruin it to me, you know I am not a "HOer" yup I have HOed but like you I would much rather have a great fight....if there were no HO's then it would all just be the lame fly by each other and pull hard on stick, see who can get around faster, with a HO involved, its more about setting up the merge to get the kill on first merge and denying a shot to the nme con, so when you have someone who "knows" how to dance it turns into a great fight for the most part......if the HO was gone I have a feeling the fights would just not be the same. and quite unrealistic.
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I completely agree with Mtnmn the HO keeps the fight honest....to get rid of it, would ruin it to me, you know I am not a "HOer" yup I have HOed but like you I would much rather have a great fight....if there were no HO's then it would all just be the lame fly by each other and pull hard on stick, see who can get around faster, with a HO involved, its more about setting up the merge to get the kill on first merge and denying a shot to the nme con, so when you have someone who "knows" how to dance it turns into a great fight for the most part......if the HO was gone I have a feeling the fights would just not be the same. and quite unrealistic.
Well said and fair enough. I don't mind the ho on the merge myself, makes things easier. So I'm doing them a favor by pointing out where they're going wrong:)
I meant more in the case of post merge, especially multi-plane engagements. I just need better SA I expect though.
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Well said and fair enough. I don't mind the ho on the merge myself, makes things easier. So I'm doing them a favor by pointing out where they're going wrong:)
I meant more in the case of post merge, especially multi-plane engagements. I just need better SA I expect though.
ehhh your a very good stick and know how to fight...I would not put you in the "Hoer" category in any way shape or form.
:salute
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We have had this argument before so I am not going to go round and round again with a game of words.
What it comes down to is how you play the game, period. Players like mtnman and others play the game for the kill. For them it is unimportant "how" they get the kill, only that they get it. This goes for every newbi dweeb all the way up the skill ladder to players well skilled like mtnman.
On the other hand there are those like me, and Shiv and many others who play this game for the fight. To us, out flying and "saddling up" to then saw a wing off the other guy is what its all about for us. To us there is an "honor" to the fight, after all its the whole reason for being there.
It's kinda like having a shoot out at high noon. The clock strikes 12, we turn towards the other player and flip our over coat back behind the holster to clear our draw of our trusty 6 gun. Mean while the other guy does the same only to reveal a couple of uzi's. It just kinda takes the fun out of the fight!
You're more like me than you know; you just have an issue with a particular shot, while I don't.
And I agree, it's kind of pointless to go around and around. You don't have a valid, supportable, argument in my eyes and you don't seem interested in opening your eyes to a broader horizon.
Anyone who knows me would never claim that I'm just in it for the kill, and/or that it's unimportant how I get it. Your statement above is flat-out wrong and inaccurate. It's not surprising though. It seems a normal tactic for the "non-HO" crowd to claim they have the higher ground. It's looks to me to be an attempt to hide the lack of compelling argument with a smoke-screen of sorts. As in "If you don't agree with me, or fight the way I want, you're a dweeb, or at least you're not in it for the fight". The general response is to refute the name-calling, and ignore the fact that the fight being asked for is a lower-level, easier, fight than was given.
I play for the fight, EXACTLY as you describe yourself and Shiv.
The only difference is that for me to consider the fight valid, I must have the threat of an HO. I would argue that you and Shiv are settling for/arguing for a type of fight that I consider sub-par. I would consider myself requiring a fight on a higher, more-realistic, more-threatening level than you desire.
It's actually how I approach life in general. I like things to be difficult. I hunt with a flintlock rifle, a longbow with hand-made arrows, and a falcon. I consider modern firearms and bows with wheels on them to be too easy. I consider a fight with HO's "banned" to be too easy. Win or lose, it makes no difference to me, it's too easy.
In your analogy above, I'd consider myself to be the gunfighter, with you having the advantage of weapon. Matter-of-fact, I'd prefer that type of fight; I like a challenge. I'd consider it ok for you to have the Uzi, but I wouldn't consider it ok if I had the Uzi...
I don't HO. I do need my opponent to feel like he can do it though, with no gripe from me. I'd consider it perfectly ok for you to HO me, but I wouldn't HO you.
And, he should fear the possibility of an HO from me so that he/we can keep the fight respectable and honest.
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There's the question of limited playing time to consider. If you don't get to play that much, and you just get hoed all the time it ruins that limited time for you. We have to consider the overall experience.
But I get your and Ink's point for sure.
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And <S> Ink btw.
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There's the question of limited playing time to consider. If you don't get to play that much, and you just get hoed all the time it ruins that limited time for you. We have to consider the overall experience.
But I get your and Ink's point for sure.
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And <S> Ink btw.
Lol! Again, I have to agree with you there Shiv (if you remove the part about being Ho'ed, of course). :salute
My play time is extremely limited lately, so it's even more important that I can find fights at a high-enough level to keep me happy. A "no-HO" allowed rule would make that impossible.
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Lol! Again, I have to agree with you there Shiv (if you remove the part about being Ho'ed, of course). :salute
My play time is extremely limited lately, so it's even more important that I can find fights at a high-enough level to keep me happy. A "no-HO" allowed rule would make that impossible.
Lol <S> And by the way, good clean fite all around :)
and <<S>> Fugi
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Lol <S> And by the way, good clean fite :)
You know, it was.
Might have to buy you a beer sometime!
<S>
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I like things to be difficult.
Except for your plane choice. :P
Every time when in a close engagement, I try to dodge the oncoming plane and pay for it with a last second FQ shot. From now on, the rule is "shoot if it's in the sight".
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Except for your plane choice. :P
Every time when in a close engagement, I try to dodge the oncoming plane and pay for it with a last second FQ shot. From now on, the rule is "shoot if it's in the sight".
Let me guess... You think you fly a more difficult plane? And that it likely limits your success?
I fly the F4U simply based on the looks, and that's really it. It has nothing to do with the flight model, good or bad. It's the only fighter in the world that I have more than a slight passing interest in. I flew the F4U when all it did was get me killed (for years, literally), for the same reasons. FWIW, I really don't have any problems getting kills in any of the planes in AH. I rely much more on basic ACM and use of "3D" space than the pixels I'm surrounded by.
It sounds like you must have some pretty basic issues with the merge, if you're suffering from FQ hits. I'm pretty comfortable saying it has nothing to do with the plane you or your opponent chooses to fly.
It sounds like you're going to give up on fixing your flying (I'm assuming you've tried?), blame it on the other guy (or his plane, maybe?), and take what you perceive to be the easy route. Would you like me to predict how successful you'll find that strategy to be?
Bravo! I look forward to meeting you in the AH skies!
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Let me guess... You think you fly a more difficult plane? And that it likely limits your success?
I fly the F4U simply based on the looks, and that's really it. It has nothing to do with the flight model, good or bad. It's the only fighter in the world that I have more than a slight passing interest in. I flew the F4U when all it did was get me killed (for years, literally), for the same reasons. FWIW, I really don't have any problems getting kills in any of the planes in AH. I rely much more on basic ACM and use of "3D" space than the pixels I'm surrounded by.
It sounds like you must have some pretty basic issues with the merge, if you're suffering from FQ hits. I'm pretty comfortable saying it has nothing to do with the plane you or your opponent chooses to fly.
It sounds like you're going to give up on fixing your flying (I'm assuming you've tried?), blame it on the other guy (or his plane, maybe?), and take what you perceive to be the easy route. Would you like me to predict how successful you'll find that strategy to be?
Bravo! I look forward to meeting you in the AH skies!
I was making a joke. Not intending to hurt your feelings. That being said, flying the same plane every sortie for years and years would make even an average pilot a tough adversary. You must realize that the Corsair is maybe the most versatile plane in the set and seriously lethal in the hands of an above average pilot. That's what I mean by easy. Not easy for a noob but a well flown Corsair is the one plane above all others that I don't want on my six.
I make no bones about having any skill and wasn't impugning yours.
And the FQ shots I was referring to are from knife fighting with both planes going slow in close quarters. I try not to HO but breaking off presents a bigger target.
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I was making a joke. Not intending to hurt your feelings. That being said, flying the same plane every sortie for years and years would make even an average pilot a tough adversary. You must realize that the Corsair is maybe the most versatile plane in the set and seriously lethal in the hands of an above average pilot. That's what I mean by easy. Not easy for a noob but a well flown Corsair is the one plane above all others that I don't want on my six.
I make no bones about having any skill and wasn't impugning yours.
And the FQ shots I was referring to are from knife fighting with both planes going slow in close quarters. I try not to HO but breaking off presents a bigger target.
I apologize for taking it the wrong way. I'm a little sensitive to the oft-heard easy-mode comments regarding the F4U (which seem to come up almost as often as I hear complaints about HO's, lol).
I feel about the same way when it comes to the KI-84, as you do about the F4U. Those things give me some serious trouble if they're flown by a skilled pilot.
I am curious though, about what it is about the situation you describe above that gets you HO'ed? I'm in that type of fight quite commonly, but don't let it get to an HO situation. I always expect my opponent to fire on me if he gets a solution, regardless of where my nose is pointed, and obviously fly to avoid letting him get a solution of any type.
I'm not trying to sound like I'm the best stick in the world, but I seriously don't get HO'ed more than once every few months? Even that is probably inflated?? Even the oft-maligned, almost indefensible gang-bang HO is a rarity for me. Sure, guys sling lead at me all the time, they just hit me so seldom that it's a non-factor.
It's a serious question, and one I struggled with a lot as a trainer. I could easily teach someone to put themselves in a merge situation where they were safe from an HO (and where an HO attempt by their opponent would at worst case be "fine" and at best might actually be a benefit) and where they'd likely be on their opponents six (safe from an HO) for the rest of the fight. But, I still commonly heard them complain of getting hit by HO's in the MA, which just boggles my mind. I find it flat-out astounding that pilots of "higher caliber" seem to "still" have issues with the HO to the point where they've given up on learning to avoid it/defeat it/work around it, and would prefer instead to put a social stigma on it and effectively remove it as a threat.
The best analogy I can think of would be a high-level mathematician who had issues with fractions, so complained about them every time he saw them, and tried to get them "done away with" in the USA. Just doesn't make any sense to me.
Do people not recognize the threat soon enough as a whole? Or do they recognize it but fail to move to defeat the threat soon enough? Or do they just go in with a hope and a prayer that their opponent won't fire at the solution they're giving him (in this latter case I'm actually ok with them getting shot up; Darwin had a point).
I could train folks to avoid the HO on merges, and to stay out of HO situations in knife fights, but not to
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I apologize for taking it the wrong way. I'm a little sensitive to the oft-heard easy-mode comments regarding the F4U (which seem to come up almost as often as I hear complaints about HO's, lol).
I feel about the same way when it comes to the KI-84, as you do about the F4U. Those things give me some serious trouble if they're flown by a skilled pilot.
I am curious though, about what it is about the situation you describe above that gets you HO'ed? I'm in that type of fight quite commonly, but don't let it get to an HO situation. I always expect my opponent to fire on me if he gets a solution, regardless of where my nose is pointed, and obviously fly to avoid letting him get a solution of any type.
I'm not trying to sound like I'm the best stick in the world, but I seriously don't get HO'ed more than once every few months? Even that is probably inflated?? Even the oft-maligned, almost indefensible gang-bang HO is a rarity for me. Sure, guys sling lead at me all the time, they just hit me so seldom that it's a non-factor.
It's a serious question, and one I struggled with a lot as a trainer. I could easily teach someone to put themselves in a merge situation where they were safe from an HO (and where an HO attempt by their opponent would at worst case be "fine" and at best might actually be a benefit) and where they'd likely be on their opponents six (safe from an HO) for the rest of the fight. But, I still commonly heard them complain of getting hit by HO's in the MA, which just boggles my mind. I find it flat-out astounding that pilots of "higher caliber" seem to "still" have issues with the HO to the point where they've given up on learning to avoid it/defeat it/work around it, and would prefer instead to put a social stigma on it and effectively remove it as a threat.
The best analogy I can think of would be a high-level mathematician who had issues with fractions, so complained about them every time he saw them, and tried to get them "done away with" in the USA. Just doesn't make any sense to me.
Do people not recognize the threat soon enough as a whole? Or do they recognize it but fail to move to defeat the threat soon enough? Or do they just go in with a hope and a prayer that their opponent won't fire at the solution they're giving him (in this latter case I'm actually ok with them getting shot up; Darwin had a point).
I could train folks to avoid the HO on merges, and to stay out of HO situations in knife fights, but not to
that's because she is a bad wamma jamma...and probably the best "fighter" in the hanger :t
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I could toss in that the non-HO group as a whole has also seem (IMO) more disrespectful and confrontational than the "pro-HO group". I see derogatory comments slung at those who are accused (rightly or wrongly) of HOing every single time I log into the game. How does that equate to a higher level of sportsmanship?
At the basketball game:
Team One Player: (Punches Team Two Player in the nose)
Team Two Player: "Hey! You punched me in the nose, you weiner, that's unsportsmanlike!"
Referee: "Team Two Player, you're out of the game for unsportsmanlike conduct!"
You're suggestion that people simply keep quiet about HOs, if implemented, will obviously remove the topic from discussion. It won't change the nature of the conduct. It may be easy for you to be above it all, but there's nothing wrong with lesser folk talking about the subject.
- oldman
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And I agree, it's kind of pointless to go around and around. You don't have a valid, supportable, argument in my eyes and you don't seem interested in opening your eyes to a broader horizon.
ahhh but to me it is you who don't have a valid, supportable, argument in my eyes and you don't seem interested in opening your eyes to a broader horizon. :D
I think its a "term" issue that really gets these discussions off track. I think the "HO" should be removed because I believe that by having it in the game gives me an advantage going into almost every fight. If a vast majority of the opponents come into the fight with nothing on their mind but driving strait at my nose with guns blazing they have removed many options in their arsenal and thus give ME the advantage KNOWING what they are doing. This to me cheapins the fight as more and more fights not only end the same way they start the same way, and increasingly progress the same way. Removing the HO would even the playing ground by forcing the "HOers' to come up with a plan of attack.
The "TERM" issue comes in where caldera and I say "we get HOed" I very rarely take hits when HOed because I know how to avoid them, however when I say I get HOed I mean the opponent I'm fighting does nothing but haul his nose around to come back at my nose. It doesn't mean I'm hauling MY nose back around to them. Most fights in the MA start this way, and most are now continuing this way. It's a great surprise to see someone to instead go into a Hi yo-yo after you merge, and exciting.
Also when I said "your a guy who goes out for the kill", I wasn't talking down to you, nor taking the high road, or claiming to be better than you. I meant it much the same way as if I said "some players like to fly high alt buffs, unlike Shiv and I who like to fly fighters". You play the game a different way THAT IS ALL. There is nothing "wrong" with it, nor am I saying there is. You play for the kill. You have said that if a plane is in your sites you will shoot, whether they are pointing their nose at you or not doesn't matter. I understand that and respect that. Again I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that. To me however, I play for the fight. I don't even care if I get the kill in the end. If I flew well and saddled up and got a few rounds in I consider it a win. I out flew my opponent. Getting the kill to me is nothing more than "score keeping" and is unimportant. Most likely because my aim sucks so bad I rarely have time to finish someone of before I get "help" from a picker :neener:
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At the basketball game:
Team One Player: (Punches Team Two Player in the nose)
Team Two Player: "Hey! You punched me in the nose, you weiner, that's unsportsmanlike!"
Referee: "Team Two Player, you're out of the game for unsportsmanlike conduct!"
You're suggestion that people simply keep quiet about HOs, if implemented, will obviously remove the topic from discussion. It won't change the nature of the conduct. It may be easy for you to be above it all, but there's nothing wrong with lesser folk talking about the subject.
- oldman
Where does punching fit into basketball?
In AH, the fighters are supposed to shoot at each other....
To compare a basketball game AH, we'd have to liken HOing to scoring with a lay-up. Are lay-ups unsportsmanlike? Would basketball be a better sport if only shots beyond a certain distance were allowed (or considered good conduct)?
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You have said that if a plane is in your sites you will shoot, whether they are pointing their nose at you or not doesn't matter.
Where?
Again, you seem to think there's a difference between how you fight and I fight?
I don't see it, form your description of how you fight.
How is the way you play the game different from mine?
Are you actually reading my posts?
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ahhh but to me it is you who don't have a valid, supportable, argument in my eyes and you don't seem interested in opening your eyes to a broader horizon. :D
Fair enough... I was in the same "anti-HO" phase you're in now too. I know how hard it can be to get past it.
... This to me cheapins the fight as more and more fights not only end the same way they start the same way, and increasingly progress the same way. Removing the HO would even the playing ground by forcing the "HOers' to come up with a plan of attack.
You honestly don't see how this exactly describes the "non-HO-allowed" "fight" as well? This realization is what ultimately lead me to consider "non-ho-allowed" fights invalid (or at least sub-par). It did take me quite a while (more than a year?).
It didn't lead me to begin HOing, of course, but it made me see the value of it as a threat.
Switch "removing" with "allowing" on your last sentence, and it becomes more accurate.
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I'm with MtnMan on this. The only reason I do not HO is because I simply have no reason to put myself in harms way when I know I can outmaneuver my opponent. It has nothing to do with honor or toon fighting ethics. If I find myself nose to nose with a bad guy by my mistake, I will either shoot him in the face and hope he does not shoot me back or I will try to make a list ditch avoidance of his shot, in which I usually take damage. Of course, this doesn't happen very often. It's as simple as that really.
Flying nose to nose by another enemy aircraft holding guns and waving is an artificial situation and is not combat.
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Where?
Again, you seem to think there's a difference between how you fight and I fight?
I don't see it, form your description of how you fight.
How is the way you play the game different from mine?
Are you actually reading my posts?
HERE, (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,289470.msg3679026.html#msg3679026) you say....
"But, if you fly/merge poorly and present me with a shot, well, I may pass on it, but not without a twinge of guilt, and a disinterest in the rest of the fight. For me, that fight is already over, and you lost... Who cares about the fight to follow? You blew it on the merge."
which means you "may not" and most likely 'will not" as in your belief it cheapens the fight by ignoring a shot to end it. ....or am I reading that wrong?
Fair enough... I was in the same "anti-HO" phase you're in now too. I know how hard it can be to get past it.
You honestly don't see how this exactly describes the "non-HO-allowed" "fight" as well? This realization is what ultimately lead me to consider "non-ho-allowed" fights invalid (or at least sub-par). It did take me quite a while (more than a year?).
It didn't lead me to begin HOing, of course, but it made me see the value of it as a threat.
Switch "removing" with "allowing" on your last sentence, and it becomes more accurate.
No I can't. By allowing the HO and "most" people using it as their main move, it's like telling me the first 10 moves your going to make when we play a game of chess. I'm already ahead and feel like I cheated. Without the HO it will force players to try AND use other move thereby putting me in a position to have to guess more about what I should do to get the upper hand in the fight. With the HO enabled I already start almost every fight with the upper hand.
I'm with MtnMan on this. The only reason I do not HO is because I simply have no reason to put myself in harms way when I know I can outmaneuver my opponent. It has nothing to do with honor or toon fighting ethics. If I find myself nose to nose with a bad guy by my mistake, I will either shoot him in the face and hope he does not shoot me back or I will try to make a list ditch avoidance of his shot, in which I usually take damage. Of course, this doesn't happen very often. It's as simple as that really.
Flying nose to nose by another enemy aircraft holding guns and waving is an artificial situation and is not combat.
I agree that putting yourself in harms way is stupid, however that doesn't seem to apply to most players these days. A vast majority of players will take that chance, push the odds, roll those dice just for the kill and it is their main,number one, favorite move. In most cases I'm sure they will even admit it is a poor percentage move if you ask them, but the need for the "kill" out ways the need to avoid the HO for them. Better cartoon pilot like you and mtnman know how to avoid the HO and exploit those that use it. I just think it has become a crutch for many new players as it does work to get kills, so why bother to learn any other moves.
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I agree that putting yourself in harms way is stupid, however that doesn't seem to apply to most players these days. A vast majority of players will take that chance, push the odds, roll those dice just for the kill and it is their main,number one, favorite move. In most cases I'm sure they will even admit it is a poor percentage move if you ask them, but the need for the "kill" out ways the need to avoid the HO for them. Better cartoon pilot like you and mtnman know how to avoid the HO and exploit those that use it. I just think it has become a crutch for many new players as it does work to get kills, so why bother to learn any other moves.
What's the problem though Fugitive? Honestly, I die to a HO maybe twice a tour and kill the HO'er about five hundred times a tour. It's not a problem for me, and if it is for you, then your tactics are not sound.
Or is the problem in the lack of fight? But when has the average player been any better than a HO'ing casual player just trying to get a couple kills in a WW2 airplane?
The main arena is about combat, the war, and getting kills or be killed. It's not about the fight. A small minority tries to make it about the fight but it never will be. It would be best to meet up with players with similar interests in the DA or a Custom arena and set ground rules because it will NEVER apply to the MA.
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Fugi I am more inclined to think that they go for the HO because they just don't understand "how" to fight.....obviously not every one that only HO's, but for the most part I think it definitely comes down to the fact they just don't understand ACM
also saddling someone is all fine and dandy but in the MA environment (with its massive hourds) its just not practical, long before you saddle them they will have friendlies all over your butt wanted or not, like you I love a good fight, but I try to kill as fast as I can, so I can be ready for the next line of red guys that I know are right around the corner so to speak......
instead of trying to saddle them go for the angles...attack the biggest red dar you can find, go for angles and have an absolute blast in the game again :salute
I do every time I fly....now if they would just get rid of the 12 hour rule so those that love to fight can go where the fight is, the game would be back to being perfect well as close to perfect as can be.
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What's the problem though Fugitive? Honestly, I die to a HO maybe twice a tour and kill the HO'er about five hundred times a tour. It's not a problem for me, and if it is for you, then your tactics are not sound.
Or is the problem in the lack of fight? But when has the average player been any better than a HO'ing casual player just trying to get a couple kills in a WW2 airplane?
BINGO !!!
The main arena is about combat, the war, and getting kills or be killed. It's not about the fight. A small minority tries to make it about the fight but it never will be. It would be best to meet up with players with similar interests in the DA or a Custom arena and set ground rules because it will NEVER apply to the MA.
ahhhh but it use to. In the old days EVERYBODY fought. Some not as well as others, but everyone tried. Todays players make one pass and haul a@@, or HO until they get in a lucky shot, or lose their "E" and then run away stick stirring all the way to ack if they came.
Lets put it this way, I'm all for ANYTHING that will force players to improve their fighting skills. I'd rather see 5 guys be able to hit 90% of the time with their bomb drops to take a town than see 30 guys hit 5% of the time to do the same thing. I'd rather see two guys break off a cap/vulch to protect a goon inbound than see 10 goons inbound. I'd rather see a cap of fighters intercept inbound defenders instead of the inbound defend vulch the vulchers.
Today fights are fewer and farther between because the players are more interested in HOing through a fight, aurgering to bomb, or overwhelming a force with huge but skilless numbers. In the old days I would log on every night even if it was only for half an hour because I KNEW I'd find a quick fight or two. Now I log on only on a weekend and spend most of my time chasing fights. HOin kills those few chances there are for fights. Personally something that evolves from "avoid the HO, yo-yo onto his tail, chase him down and cut his wing off" can't really be called a fight.
Fugi I am more inclined to think that they go for the HO because they just don't understand "how" to fight.....obviously not every one that only HO's, but for the most part I think it definitely comes down to the fact they just don't understand ACM
also saddling someone is all fine and dandy but in the MA environment (with its massive hourds) its just not practical, long before you saddle them they will have friendlies all over your butt wanted or not, like you I love a good fight, but I try to kill as fast as I can, so I can be ready for the next line of red guys that I know are right around the corner so to speak......
instead of trying to saddle them go for the angles...attack the biggest red dar you can find, go for angles and have an absolute blast in the game again :salute
I do every time I fly....now if they would just get rid of the 12 hour rule so those that love to fight can go where the fight is, the game would be back to being perfect well as close to perfect as can be.
I agree Ink, and I do still have fun...other wise I wouldn't be here :aok Can you imagine tho if even half the players playing now learned some ACMs and even became average? How would the fights be then? :D
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ahhhh but it use to. In the old days EVERYBODY fought. Some not as well as others, but everyone tried. Todays players make one pass and haul a@@, or HO until they get in a lucky shot, or lose their "E" and then run away stick stirring all the way to ack if they came.
I don't believe this in the least. It was just your perception that everyone fought.
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I don't believe this in the least. It was just your perception that everyone fought.
believe what you will. I wish I had some of wldthings films. I remember fighting almost ALL the time. Very rare was it a chase. If you engaged with someone they fought back. I think I would remember the frustration that builds when you spend half your night looking for or chasing down a target, like I do now with todays play.
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HERE, (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,289470.msg3679026.html#msg3679026) you say....
"But, if you fly/merge poorly and present me with a shot, well, I may pass on it, but not without a twinge of guilt, and a disinterest in the rest of the fight. For me, that fight is already over, and you lost... Who cares about the fight to follow? You blew it on the merge." which means you "may not" and most likely 'will not" as in your belief it cheapens the fight by ignoring a shot to end it. ....or am I reading that wrong?
Ah, OK, my fault for not being clear enough. I can see how that could be misunderstood.
By "may" I mean I would pass on the shot, but that by passing on it I may give you the wrong impression on how I feel about it (i.e. you may think that I see your merge as appropriate/legitimate/etc...). I wouldn't take the shot simply because it isn't/wasn't in my "plan" (I never enter a fight expecting that my opponent will make it so easy to beat him, although I always suspect he'll be looking for a quick way to beat me).
"I may pass on it" might be better replaced with some version of "luckily for you, I'll pass on the shot"?
So, for clarity, I would pass on taking that shot 100% of the time. But, I'd feel guilty about it because it would allow you to think that you were fighting in an effective manner, or that our "fight" (boy, I hate using that word in a non-ho-allowed description) was at all realistic or "honest".
By passing on that shot, I'd consider myself "guilty by association" to reducing the overall quality of fights in the game. I'd pass on it (and do so gobs and gobs and gobs of times), but feel I was in the wrong for doing so. I'd consider it cheating, or more accurately maybe, allowing my opponent to cheat on me without my saying anything about it. All legitimacy to the fight will be gone for me by that point (the merge).
No I can't. By allowing the HO and "most" people using it as their main move, it's like telling me the first 10 moves your going to make when we play a game of chess. I'm already ahead and feel like I cheated. Without the HO it will force players to try AND use other move thereby putting me in a position to have to guess more about what I should do to get the upper hand in the fight. With the HO enabled I already start almost every fight with the upper hand.
I agree that putting yourself in harms way is stupid, however that doesn't seem to apply to most players these days. A vast majority of players will take that chance, push the odds, roll those dice just for the kill and it is their main,number one, favorite move. In most cases I'm sure they will even admit it is a poor percentage move if you ask them, but the need for the "kill" out ways the need to avoid the HO for them. Better cartoon pilot like you and mtnman know how to avoid the HO and exploit those that use it. I just think it has become a crutch for many new players as it does work to get kills, so why bother to learn any other moves.
I don't see evidence of the prevalence of this when I play. Sure, some guys go for it. Some don't know any better, some don't care, etc... The best way to teach them there's a better option is to show them it doesn't/shouldn't work that well. If it works, why wouldn't they continue using it? If players are dragging the "non-ho" mentality into the game, they're making the HO more effective (and therefore probably increasing its prevalence) than it should be, simply because they're not defending against it adequately.
As a personal example of that... I had (occasionally) people train with me where (when I'd start out with a basic merge to appraise their skill) they'd ask "guns cold on the merge?". I'd always respond with "What??!! Heck no! If you feel like shooting at me, or think you can hit me, feel free!". Why would I do that? Simple... I knew that they could try to HO me as often as they wanted, and there was no way in heck they'd come away from our session feeling like that was going to be an effective option when it came to fighting a skilled pilot. I had guys try it on me, repeatedly, and of course it didn't work. The beauty of it is that they proved to themselves that it didn't work, because they tried it, and it didn't work. Then I showed them some tactics that do work. The ones that didn't try it were still left with the knowledge that they could try for it if they desired, but that I wasn't fazed by it and was very confident that it wasn't a tactic that would work on me...
Had I told them to go with a "cold merge" they'd have been left thinking that there was a reason I'd asked for no-ho's... Why could that be? Was an HO-pass a chink in MtnMan's armor? One that could be exploited if they didn't realize quick success with the more complex methods I taught? And if it works on MtnMan, will it work as well on others? Is it the easy answer to winning in the MA?
In that light, by "allowing" it, I was dissuading them from using it, while, had I disallowed it, I might have encouraged its use (later). Beyond that, had I taught them guns-cold merges I'd have been doing them a disservice when it comes to MA-fights. If I'm going to teach them, I want to do it right, rather than show them a gimmick or method that will only work under certain circumstances. I'd have made them more susceptible to being HO'ed in the MA, and contributed to the "HOing is effective" theory.
To the "first 10 moves" comment I'd say the same thing about the non-HO-allowed merge... Dive to the deck, pass side-by-side, and pull up... The non-HO merge is one of the most "scripted" fights possible.
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Where does punching fit into basketball?
In AH, the fighters are supposed to shoot at each other....
To compare a basketball game AH, we'd have to liken HOing to scoring with a lay-up. Are lay-ups unsportsmanlike? Would basketball be a better sport if only shots beyond a certain distance were allowed (or considered good conduct)?
The analogy was not exact. The point of it was that those who criticize the HO aren't the ones who are initiating the debate. The people who take that shot are.
- oldman
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The analogy was not exact. The point of it was that those who criticize the HO aren't the ones who are initiating the debate. The people who take that shot are.
- oldman
How so?
Was my analogy close enough? We're talking about a very basic "legal" component of each game after all (shooting an easy basket/going for a low-complexity shot in AH).
Punching in basketball is an illegal tactic, so the ref should be involved. Shooting an opponent in AH is not illegal, so why would shooting an opponent in AH initiate a debate?
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Punching in basketball is an illegal tactic, so the ref should be involved. Shooting an opponent in AH is not illegal, so why would shooting an opponent in AH initiate a debate?
Thank you. You have now brought us full circle. Whether legal or illegal, reasonable people differ on whether the HO is sportsmanlike conduct. Thus the HO begets the expressed irritation.
- oldman
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Thank you. You have now brought us full circle. Whether legal or illegal, reasonable people differ on whether the HO is sportsmanlike conduct. Thus the HO begets the expressed irritation.
- oldman
Well, I guess we'll just need to continue disagreeing then...
Unless a ref shows up?
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I'd rather avoid them. Most of all in 1 on 1s. Thats one of the good things Ive found in the WW1 arena, the few times Ive ever noticed anyone in there, its that HO'ing is generally avoided. At least in the handful of fights Ive been in there.
HO'ing bombers is certainly a valid tactic.
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Well, I guess we'll just need to continue disagreeing then...
Heh. Diggit.
- oldman
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believe what you will. I wish I had some of wldthings films. I remember fighting almost ALL the time. Very rare was it a chase. If you engaged with someone they fought back. I think I would remember the frustration that builds when you spend half your night looking for or chasing down a target, like I do now with todays play.
I find fights all the time in the MA. We must be playing in parallel toon universes.
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believe what you will. I wish I had some of wldthings films. I remember fighting almost ALL the time. Very rare was it a chase. If you engaged with someone they fought back. I think I would remember the frustration that builds when you spend half your night looking for or chasing down a target, like I do now with todays play.
i dunno man.. there were fewer people then.. and way way back you paid by the minute.. think those guys ran? I bet some of them did.. lol But other than that, I think the random player has not changed.. folk always ran.. always will..
Besides.. if they're running from you.. Thats easy to fix... Fly against a large mob and they all fly toward you! :salute
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Flying nose to nose by another enemy aircraft holding guns and waving is an artificial situation and is not combat.
Now now Grizz. You are starting to sound like you are playing too much again :)
This isn't combat. No one is dying. It's all artificial. The guy coming in nose to nose not shooting is hoping to get the edge in a fight. The guy coming in guns blazing nose to nose has his own agenda or is just too lazy to do anything else. My opinion of it tends to lean towards the latter as since there is no real risk to not shooting head on, it becomes a way of avoiding the bending the airplane part of the game. Again, just my opinion and I don't expect anyone to change. That being said, I won't either so that 38G that turns into your nose isn't going to shoot, hoping that I might get a fight out of it instead.
In the end folks will keep doing it and we'll argue til doomsday on whether it's OK or not. And in the end it's a choice. I choose not to in hopes that the other guy does the same, knowing I may end up busted up or back in the tower. My choice. Someone shoots me in the face. Their choice. So it goes.
I'll disagree with Fugi in that nothing has changed. Find a film from pre-2005 and it's all whining about the same stuff. What's missing is it's not LA7s doing all the HOing :)
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Now now Grizz. You are starting to sound like you are playing too much again :)
This isn't combat. No one is dying. It's all artificial. The guy coming in nose to nose not shooting is hoping to get the edge in a fight. The guy coming in guns blazing nose to nose has his own agenda or is just too lazy to do anything else. My opinion of it tends to lean towards the latter as since there is no real risk to not shooting head on, it becomes a way of avoiding the bending the airplane part of the game. Again, just my opinion and I don't expect anyone to change. That being said, I won't either so that 38G that turns into your nose isn't going to shoot, hoping that I might get a fight out of it instead.
In the end folks will keep doing it and we'll argue til doomsday on whether it's OK or not. And in the end it's a choice. I choose not to in hopes that the other guy does the same, knowing I may end up busted up or back in the tower. My choice. Someone shoots me in the face. Their choice. So it goes.
I'll disagree with Fugi in that nothing has changed. Find a film from pre-2005 and it's all whining about the same stuff. What's missing is it's not LA7s doing all the HOing :)
The guy coming in for the HO is especially lazy but the two pilots flying past one another holding guns are lazy themselves. One pilot should always be maneuvering to avoid a future shot and one pilot should always be going for a shot. Any fight that results in a nose to nose cold guns merge is a stalemate and null from that point forward.
Just out of curiosity, what percentage of the population do you think you can handle in a 1v1 situation, your 38G vs their plane if no "cheap" shots are taken? 90%? 95%? If you can dominate the majority of the population, how is THAT combat or good sportsmanship. I have heard Delirium whine about his 1v1's plenty of times in the MA and they usually last all but ten seconds before he waxes the guy's ass. How is this a good fight? Why does this "fight" require the sanctity of being unadulterated by others around him?
Why should a less skilled player hold guns in a game where the object is to shoot the other player?
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The guy coming in for the HO is especially lazy but the two pilots flying past one another holding guns are lazy themselves. One pilot should always be maneuvering to avoid a future shot and one pilot should always be going for a shot. Any fight that results in a nose to nose cold guns merge is a stalemate and null from that point forward.
Just out of curiosity, what percentage of the population do you think you can handle in a 1v1 situation, your 38G vs their plane if no "cheap" shots are taken? 90%? 95%? If you can dominate the majority of the population, how is THAT combat or good sportsmanship. I have heard Delirium whine about his 1v1's plenty of times in the MA and they usually last all but ten seconds before he waxes the guy's ass. How is this a good fight? Why does this "fight" require the sanctity of being unadulterated by others around him?
Why should a less skilled player hold guns in a game where the object is to shoot the other player?
If that's the object of the game for them, then I'd expect them to shoot. As I said, it's still a choice and I choose not to. I long ago gave up expecting the other guy not to. I can only credit the guys who showed me the ropes, and there thing was you got better by pushing and bending your cartoon bird. I well remember the frustration of losing often. I also remember when all of a sudden I started to win now and then. The satisfaction from knowing I'd taken it up a notch was what mattered. I've never been a great stick, but I've gotten to the point where I can give some of the best sticks a good fight. I also figure that as a vet player, how I play may have an impact on how a new guy approaches things.
I guess it depends on what is most important to you. If a kill is the most important thing, then take the shot. If that's your satisfaction, go for it. It's been a long long time since I worried about whether I could get a kill, land a kill, or believed that a kill no matter how it was gotten was the reason I play the game. I know there are lots of guys who play looking for the fight, win or lose whether that be wading into a crowd and trying to take as many as possible with them, or those sometime MA events where you run into someone on the edge of the crowd and duke it out.
I think the last time I had a chance to fly was a good example. Bunnies and I had a couple of knock down drag out fights. I think I got him once and he got me. I think the third time I damaged him and he got me. Stogey was watching the fight. Bunnies wasn't in any shape to fight, so Stogey covered him back to base. If your approach is a kill is a kill, Stog drops down and clobbers the wreck of Bunnies. But Bunnies fought a great and fair fight, and earned em. Why would killing his damaged bird prove anything? More power to him for flying so well. I came back, ran into a 109, thought it was Bunnies, went in thinking merge and took a tater in the face from another guy in a 109. Pretty much sums up the MA. But those fights with Bunnies, where no one HO'd and fought it out despite the crowd, made the night worthwhile.
But as I said in my previous post. I don't expect folks not to HO for the reasons stated. I'm not going to for the same reasons.
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The guy coming in for the HO is especially lazy but the two pilots flying past one another holding guns are lazy themselves. One pilot should always be maneuvering to avoid a future shot and one pilot should always be going for a shot. Any fight that results in a nose to nose cold guns merge is a stalemate and null from that point forward.
Just out of curiosity, what percentage of the population do you think you can handle in a 1v1 situation, your 38G vs their plane if no "cheap" shots are taken? 90%? 95%? If you can dominate the majority of the population, how is THAT combat or good sportsmanship. I have heard Delirium whine about his 1v1's plenty of times in the MA and they usually last all but ten seconds before he waxes the guy's ass. How is this a good fight? Why does this "fight" require the sanctity of being unadulterated by others around him?
Why should a less skilled player hold guns in a game where the object is to shoot the other player?
Thats the point, if a less skilled player couldn't lean on the crutch of "the HO" don't you think he might learn a new trick? Once these "players with less skill" learn a few moves don't you think the chances for Guppy to be beating 90-95% of his opponents is going to start dropping? If the skill level starts climbing don't you think fights will become more abundant, and more fun?
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Thats the point, if a less skilled player couldn't lean on the crutch of "the HO" don't you think he might learn a new trick? Once these "players with less skill" learn a few moves don't you think the chances for Guppy to be beating 90-95% of his opponents is going to start dropping? If the skill level starts climbing don't you think fights will become more abundant, and more fun?
I absolutely agree with this . "....If the skill level starts climbing don't you think fights will become more abundant, and more fun..."
its up to the less skilled to want to learn and get better...not up to HTC to implement a very gamey tactic that...IE getting rid of HO shots....the fights would not be honest and true to what a dog fight with WW2 planes would have been...besides some planes the best offense is the HO so now you take away that planes ability to win a fight...
.now I know we are not re enacting WW2.....but think about this ... if the flying tigers rounds did not work on a head on merge with the zero's they would have been screwed that was their best tactic to win against them....
to remove that threat from AH would be absolutely silly and extremely lame.
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Thats the point, if a less skilled player couldn't lean on the crutch of "the HO" don't you think he might learn a new trick? Once these "players with less skill" learn a few moves don't you think the chances for Guppy to be beating 90-95% of his opponents is going to start dropping? If the skill level starts climbing don't you think fights will become more abundant, and more fun?
They might be more fun in a 1v1 atmosphere more frequently, but certainly less fun in a 1v2 or 1v3 atmosphere if I am all of a sudden fighting against more competent pilots, outnumbered. Since the 1v1 is rare in the MA, I prefer they remain as sheeple so I can take them on in large numbers and make them my puppets. :aok
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The guy coming in nose to nose not shooting is hoping to get the edge in a fight. The guy coming in guns blazing nose to nose has his own agenda or is just too lazy to do anything else. My opinion of it tends to lean towards the latter as since there is no real risk to not shooting head on, it becomes a way of avoiding the bending the airplane part of the game.
The guy coming in with guns blazing has his own agenda?? LOL!
You're right, he does... It's the same agenda as you point out for the non-shooting pilot... He's trying to get the edge in a fight. The guy with the guns blazing is simply being more aggressive, and trying to get that edge sooner (i.e. right away).
He's trained to do that, in essence, by trial and error when he fights "better" pilots. He learns very quickly that if he doesn't get the "edge" within the first second or two, he's screwed. He'll never see another opportunity to shoot. His opportunity to shoot/win is at the merge, so he takes that opportunity.
If he makes it through the merge, and dies horribly within a few seconds afterwards as the "experienced" pilot whups him hard, that cements the idea that he has no chance against a skilled pilot if he doesn't do damage during his first, brief, opportunity.
Worse yet... If he actually manages to hit his opponent on the merge we've got real trouble. He's now learned that he can kill on the merge, and that he's unlikely to succeed if the fight goes beyond the merge. Double-whammy.
Uh oh, it gets even worse... If he fails to kill on the merge, and knows he has almost no chance of success beyond the merge, he may run. Or if he turns, he realizes that as the seconds tick by (remember, he only has about ten to play with) to have any chance of a win he needs to do it ASAP! That means "haul that nose around and get guns on his opponent ASAP!" If he sees your nose anywhere close to getting a solution, he'll pull even harder ina race to get guns on quicker than you. He really has no other good option in his eyes, there's a very low likelihood he'll survive long enough to get guns on you (or near you) a third time.
About the only way it could be worse than that would be if he got chastised for winning the fight due to getting his nose on you quicker. Not only does he "beat" you, you tell him how he did it ("you dirty HO'er") and expose what he sees as a chink in the experienced pilots armor (the inability to handle/defend against a FG shot). Ooops, that happens too, doesn't it?
Realistically, the best way to "un-train" the HO might be to dodge it/disallow it (reduce its effectiveness), and then let your weaker opponent win when it comes to the more complex maneuvering aspect of the fight. Even if he's sloppy and skill less, at least he's doing what you want right? Let him beat you then. It's not a war, it's not combat, nobody is dying. Why would you want to win the fight if it might contribute to your opponent's frustration, and possibly even result in him getting more aggressive than you at a stage of the fight where it bothers you if he's aggressive?
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Thats the point, if a less skilled player couldn't lean on the crutch of "the HO" don't you think he might learn a new trick? Once these "players with less skill" learn a few moves don't you think the chances for Guppy to be beating 90-95% of his opponents is going to start dropping? If the skill level starts climbing don't you think fights will become more abundant, and more fun?
]
The less-skilled player can't lean on the "crutch" of the HO, unless the more experienced pilot allows it.
Plane-choice aside, the more experienced pilot can do a ton to control how a fight progresses.
Plane-choice included, your average player probably can't get 50% of the benefits out of his ride anyway which again allows the more experienced pilot to control the fight.
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The guy coming in with guns blazing has his own agenda?? LOL!
You're right, he does... It's the same agenda as you point out for the non-shooting pilot... He's trying to get the edge in a fight. The guy with the guns blazing is simply being more aggressive, and trying to get that edge sooner (i.e. right away).
He's trained to do that, in essence, by trial and error when he fights "better" pilots. He learns very quickly that if he doesn't get the "edge" within the first second or two, he's screwed. He'll never see another opportunity to shoot. His opportunity to shoot/win is at the merge, so he takes that opportunity.
If he makes it through the merge, and dies horribly within a few seconds afterwards as the "experienced" pilot whups him hard, that cements the idea that he has no chance against a skilled pilot if he doesn't do damage during his first, brief, opportunity.
Worse yet... If he actually manages to hit his opponent on the merge we've got real trouble. He's now learned that he can kill on the merge, and that he's unlikely to succeed if the fight goes beyond the merge. Double-whammy.
Uh oh, it gets even worse... If he fails to kill on the merge, and knows he has almost no chance of success beyond the merge, he may run. Or if he turns, he realizes that as the seconds tick by (remember, he only has about ten to play with) to have any chance of a win he needs to do it ASAP! That means "haul that nose around and get guns on his opponent ASAP!" If he sees your nose anywhere close to getting a solution, he'll pull even harder ina race to get guns on quicker than you. He really has no other good option in his eyes, there's a very low likelihood he'll survive long enough to get guns on you (or near you) a third time.
About the only way it could be worse than that would be if he got chastised for winning the fight due to getting his nose on you quicker. Not only does he "beat" you, you tell him how he did it ("you dirty HO'er") and expose what he sees as a chink in the experienced pilots armor (the inability to handle/defend against a FG shot). Ooops, that happens too, doesn't it?
Realistically, the best way to "un-train" the HO might be to dodge it/disallow it (reduce its effectiveness), and then let your weaker opponent win when it comes to the more complex maneuvering aspect of the fight. Even if he's sloppy and skill less, at least he's doing what you want right? Let him beat you then. It's not a war, it's not combat, nobody is dying. Why would you want to win the fight if it might contribute to your opponent's frustration, and possibly even result in him getting more aggressive than you at a stage of the fight where it bothers you if he's aggressive?
You are arguing the point but I'm not disagreeing with you. It's all about choice. I choose not to. I expect that other folks will. I gave up condemning it a while back. It is what it is. That being said, I'm not going to pat a guy on the back for trying to take a HO shot and never take the fight further.
I choose not to HO because of the reasons stated. You feel free to let fly every time. I won't complain on 200 or PM you with nasty remarks. I also won't tell you I'm impressed. I will tell the guy that clobbers me by out flying me 'nice job' :)
You can blast me with a wall of text with all the 'reasons' why it's a good thing. I don't buy it. My opinion, nothing more.
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You are arguing the point but I'm not disagreeing with you. It's all about choice. I choose not to. I expect that other folks will. I gave up condemning it a while back. It is what it is. That being said, I'm not going to pat a guy on the back for trying to take a HO shot and never take the fight further.
I choose not to HO because of the reasons stated. You feel free to let fly every time. I won't complain on 200 or PM you with nasty remarks. I also won't tell you I'm impressed. I will tell the guy that clobbers me by out flying me 'nice job' :)
You can blast me with a wall of text with all the 'reasons' why it's a good thing. I don't buy it. My opinion, nothing more.
You always have such a way with words :aok I agree
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You always have such a way with words :aok I agree
Uh oh! That makes two of us!
I'd never congratulate someone for beating me with the HO either, simply because I consider allowing myself to lose to it beating myself.
And I'm really not saying I consider it a "good" thing, just a "vitally important" thing. It's potential/presence in the game is necessary, even if it's never used...
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Hi all!
Here is a short AH film. What would you do in this situation?
I HOed and felt very good after doing so. :bolt:
http://www.mediafire.com/?1c6hz6q12m33ck0 (http://www.mediafire.com/?1c6hz6q12m33ck0)
Mutley :salute
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And I'm really not saying I consider it a "good" thing, just a "vitally important" thing. It's potential/presence in the game is necessary, even if it's never used...
I really wish I could have expressed myself in the past when this has come up as well as MtnMan has in this thread. Well put, sir.
Wiley.