Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Penguin on October 07, 2011, 09:01:50 PM
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Hello,
I've recently completed my first large scholarly work. It is an essay concerning sleep patterns during puberty and their incompatibility with school start times of 7:20 AM. During puberty, sleep cycles shift one hour later, which leads to lost sleep and drowsier mornings if teens wake at 6:00 AM. The solution is to make school start times later so that teenagers can get their sleep, which will reduce depression and car accidents while increasing attendance and grades.
I've come here because I've found that some of you are very, very good at taking ideas apart, chewing them up, and then spitting back a thoughtful answer. I hope that enough of you will do so that I will be able to change my essay before I submit it.
Acknowledgements:
- If you'd like to say "tl;dr", just get out. This is part of my effort to actually change the start time of my school, so please, take it seriously.
- As of Friday, 7 October, 2011, 21:50 Eastern Standard Time, this essay remains a work in progress that is very similar to the open beta of a program. In addition, I still need to collect a few more signatures on the petition that I will present along with the study to my principal (I should get around 30 more on Tuesday if everything pans out) before I will release the final version.
Thanks to:
- My history teacher, Ms. Sullivan, who called me out on a conjectural point that I made before the entire class. She taught me that I need to back up my statements before they exit my mouth.
- My mom, she's a doctor who has access to a wealth of knowledge and references, and her medical advice helped me to explain why the problem is not of the mind, but of the body.
- Those of you who have defeated me in debate. I've taken every lesson that I've learned and tried my best to apply it here.
The actual essay begins below:
On Sleep and its Deprivation
Early to bed, early to rise, makes a teen feeble, faulty, and dull!
High school students are chronically sleep deprived which has serious academic, social mental and, general health consequences. For their lack of alertness, the students may very well be undead, and they suffer depression, anger, and poor academic performance. Though society may regard sleep as a luxury that the ambitious cannot afford [1], sleep is a necessary period during which the brain repairs itself and forms permanent memories, both of which are necessary for learning to occur. Walpole High School is by nature, a learning institution, and to ignore adolescents’ difficulties in learning early in the morning would be self-defeating. The solution is to change the start time of the high school to a much later hour, something already practiced in Sharon- in addition, it would improve the academic performance of elementary school children (who learn better earlier in the day), and increase safety by leaving teens more alert at the wheel or crosswalk.
Mary Carskadon from Brown University performed a study that lends weight to the point that teenagers are not at fault for their early-morning tiredness. She found that during puberty the sleep cycle shifts to around 11 PM, which leads to a significantly later natural wake-up time. In addition, Carskadon’s study found that teens are unable to fall asleep earlier even if physically exhausted, even with an appropriate time allowed for earlier sleep. However, teenagers are the least likely to obtain all the sleep they need, they average 7 hours each day during the school year. This, coupled with the fact that teenagers require 8.5 to 9.25 hours of sleep nightly [2] inhibits all higher functions.
Several studies mostly performed in public schools over the last two decades showed that changing the school start time to a later one has positive effects on students (7). In addition, a recent study from Brown University (6) showed that even a thirty-minute delay in start time resulted in 79% decrease in the number of students sleeping for less than seven hours on school nights and moved the number of those having more than eight hours of sleep from 16.4% to 54.7%. Daytime sleepiness, fatigue, depression, and tardiness decreased.
Landmark research from Minnesota (1996) led by Kyla Wahlstrom (9) studied a large population of 7000 students and 3000 teachers in two school districts, and 750 interviewed parents. There was a significant reduction in school dropout rates, fewer instances of depression, and higher grades. After the first year of the experiment 92% of interviewed parents stated they preferred later start times. Puberty, and thus delayed sleep cycles begin in middle school, and a 2004 Massachusetts study compared two middle schools head to head. One started at 8:37 AM and the other at 7:15 AM. The students who got up earlier were tardy four times as often as their peers in the “late“ school and their 8th grade transcripts showed significantly lower grades (1) The changes in school start time did have impact on length of extracurricular activities, sports, jobs etc. However, most parent s and coaches preferred the change because it gave them a chance to work with less tired students and there were fewer conflicts with adults.
Academic and athletic achievements are not all that is at stake. A study from Kentucky (1, 4) evaluated the effects of delays in high-school start time in terms of hours of sleep and motor vehicle crashes. A one-hour delay in the school start time resulted in an average one-hour increase in the nightly sleep of the students. The average rates for car crashes among teen drivers dropped 16.5% over 2 years of the study, compared to two years before the study. Furthermore, the incidence of car crashes increased by 7.8% in the rest of the state over the same period. However, this is not the only safety issue helped by later start times. Most high school students live in ‘latchkey’ arrangements, in which they finish school several hours before their parents arrive home from work. Police reports show that it is during the period between the end of school and the arrival of parents at home that teen crime rates are the highest (3). If school started later, teenagers would spend less time unsupervised, and therefore less time committing crime. In fact, this issue is so important that it has reached the national legislature.
Congress acknowledged sleep deprivation as a public health concern in 1999. Representative Zoe Lofren from California proposed a congressional resolution to encourage schools to delay start time to accommodate adolescents sleep demands. Resolution 135 or the “ZZZs to As” Act proposes that the schools will move their start time to no earlier than 8:30 AM. (5) This is hardly an unbeaten path; in many schools in this very state have adopted later start times. Ten schools in Boston have moved from a start time of 7:20 AM to a range of 7:45 to 8:30. Owing to their efforts, Walpole can draw on their experience, especially the neighboring Sharon High School, to implement this change. (10)
To conclude, Walpole’s students are depressed, numb and tired every morning. It is not their fault; their melatonin cycles have shifted, leaving them lagging behind everyone else. Early start times exacerbate this problem, and students must then cope with drowsiness, depression crime, death and maiming by horrific automobile crashes, and worst of all, reduced academic performance.
BIBLIOGRAPHY:
[1] "Sleep isn’t a priority for teenagers, and it typically isn’t made one by parents or schools."
--Jodi Mindell, PhD, Director of Graduate Program in Psychology, St. Joseph’s University, and Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia
[2] http://www.sleepfoundation.org/article/hot-topics/backgrounder-later-school-start-times
[3] In one study, subjects were tested using the psychomotor vigilance task (Von Dongen et al., 2003, as cited in Walker, 2009). Different groups of people were tested with variable sleep times for two weeks: 8 hours, 6 hours, 4 hours, and total sleep deprivation. Each day they were tested for the number of lapses on the PVT. The results showed that as time went by, each group's performance worsened, with no sign of any stopping point. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_debt
[4] http://www.sleepfoundation.org/article/hot-topics/backgrounder-later-school-start-times See ‘Changes in Melatonin’
[5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Biological_clock_human.PNG
[6] “…studies have shown that employers indicate a change in start times has not affected their business or the number of hours their student employees can work. They indicate that extra help is not usually needed until school gets out anyway, so they can easily adjust to the new schedule.”
[7] http://www.sleepfoundation.org/article/sleep-topics/school-start-time-and-sleep
[8] http://www.sleepfoundation.org/article/sleep-topics/school-start-time-and-sleep
(1) National Sleep Foundation, “Backgrounder: Later School Start Times”
(4) Journal of Clinical Sleep Medicine, Scientific Investigations, “Adolescent Sleep, School Start Times, and Teen Motor Vehicle Crashes” Fred Danner, Ph.D., Barbara Phillips, M.D., M.S.P.H.
(5) National Sleep Foundation, “School Start Time and Sleep”
(7) Wisconsin Medical Journal, ”Sleep, Sleepiness and School Start Times: A Preliminary Study”, Donn Dexter, M.D.; Jagdeep Bejwadia, M.D.; Dana Schilling; Gwendolyn Applebaugh, Ph. D.
(9) College of Education + Human Development, “LATER START TIMES FOR HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS”
(10) FOCUS On Children Boston Public Schools, “Superintendent Contomapasis proposes later start times for 10 Boston high schools”
-Penguin
COPYRIGHT: Feel free to quote this essay and reproduce it at will. However, please credit my essay if you quote it, and ask for permission if you'd like to use it to make money.
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Go to bed earlier.
Count back from when you have to wake up how many hours you would like to sleep. I have to get up at 5:30 to get ready for work, I really need 7-8 hours to function well so though I don't like going to bed before 10, I do it. Someone as smart as you should've figured this out on your own.
Again: Go to bed earlier.
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Did you even read the essay? During puberty, sleep cycles shift. It is a well known fact. There is nothing that those going through puberty can do about it. It's like asking the rising tide to go out. Eventually it will go out, but there is nothing that can be done until then.
EDIT: In addition, those going through puberty need 8-9 1/2 hours of sleep. I'd have to go to bed at around 9 o'clock- something that no matter how much many teenagers and I try, we still lie awake, tossing and turning.
-Penguin
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Exercise, tire yourself, it's not hard.
Schools don't ask for more than 8 hours from you to attend, given another 2 hours of studying and doing homework (which is way more than I or any other average student commits regularly) , that's 10 hours that they ask from you every day. You have FOURTEEN HOURS to eat, work, play, and sleep. How those hours are shared between those four activities is up to you to figure out like a responsible adult.
Where the sun is in the sky has zilch to do with when you may sleep. Find any publication on a .edu webpage that explicitly says otherwise and I will eat my hat.
A better argument would be about when students get home. If kids go to school late they get home late. Is it, in your opinion, a bad thing that children get home from school before the parents who work 9-5? Would it be a good thing for them to not have time to do any outdoor extra curriculars while the sun is still up?
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Sleep depends on the specific person. One person might require 10 hours of sleep and another (same age and physical condition) might only require 5. When you are growing up you need more sleep because...your still growing up.
I heard a lot about sleep cycles changing and I say BS to that. What happens when you switch time zones? For example Arizona is technically on maintain time but we don't follow daylight saving time and in the summer end up being on pacific time. That does not mean that it's easier to wake up in Arizona than it is in California.
You start wanting to sleep at the time when you normally go to bed, or earlier is you spend the specific day doing something more difficult than what you normally do.
I sleep 6 hours on weekdays & 12 hours on weekends, works out great. My record for no sleep for 4.5 days (no, I was not trying to set the record), I know plenty of people who can't even stay for 2 days. So in the end it all depends on the specific person.
P.S. Please don't quote me any doctors or scientific research, I never believe it. All my information is based on my experience.
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Exercise, tire yourself, it's not hard.
Schools don't ask for more than 8 hours from you to attend, given another 2 hours of studying and doing homework (which is way more than I or any other average student commits regularly) , that's 10 hours that they ask from you every day. You have FOURTEEN HOURS to eat, work, play, and sleep. How those hours are shared between those four activities is up to you to figure out like a responsible adult.
Where the sun is in the sky has zilch to do with when you may sleep. Find any publication on a .edu webpage that explicitly says that is not true and I will eat my hat.
This is precisely the problem. We are not adults. Stop expecting our bodies to be ready in our mid or late teens. They won't be ready until our brains finish mylenating in our early to mid-twenties. It's well worth the wait. The sun, the moon, artificial lighting, and culture all play into when we go to bed. Time zone frequently has the largest impact. The problem is not with our behavior, it is with our bodies not being ready to sleep before 11:00.
Sleep depends on the specific person. One person might require 10 hours of sleep and another (same age and physical condition) might only require 5. When you are growing up you need more sleep because...your still growing up.
I heard a lot about sleep cycles changing and I say BS to that. What happens when you switch time zones? For example Arizona is technically on maintain time but we don't follow daylight saving time and in the summer end up being on pacific time. That does not mean that it's easier to wake up in Arizona than it is in California.
You start wanting to sleep at the time when you normally go to bed, or earlier is you spend the specific day doing something more difficult than what you normally do.
I sleep 6 hours on weekdays & 12 hours on weekends, works out great. My record for no sleep for 4.5 days (no, I was not trying to set the record), I know plenty of people who can't even stay for 2 days. So in the end it all depends on the specific person.
P.S. Please don't quote me any doctors or scientific research, I never believe it. All my information is based on my experience.
The changing of a time-zone is different. The sun comes up at a different time, and so does everything in the entire day. To attempt to sleep at the time one did in another time zone is foolish- the entire day fights against you. To prove my point, observe your sleep habits when you take a plane ride toward Grenwich, England. You will be tired in the middle of the day, and wide awake at night. Interestingly, if you fly away from Grenwich, England, you will get some of the best night's sleep ever for about a week. If you want to speak in terms of experience, I've been flying to and from Europe since the month after I was born. Frankfurt, Warsaw, Gdansk (aka Danzig), Heathrow, I've seen them all. I'm very well aware of what happens when you switch time zones.
If you choose not to believe doctors or scientific research, then try going without antibiotics when you get a nasty bacterial infection. You'd be surprised how tough life was before modern medicine. Depending on the bacteria, you might die.
-Penguin
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That pushed back hour you speak of is in relation to when teens go to bed. They stay up watching more t.v. and playing on their computers. It's not puberty that has pushed back the hour, it's actions that they have taken over time that causes them to push their sleep cycle back. It can be a problem for some to go to bed earlier all of a sudden, but they can re-train their brain to get back to a more acceptable cycle. Adults that work different shifts during the week can do it and yes, some complain about it, but it is doable. Teens have never experienced having to do that so it seems that it's impossible. What I mean by that is what you haven't experienced gives you no reference such as what you thought was the worst pain you ever felt before and what you would classify as a 10 on the pain scale, changes when you experience pain that actually is worse. Give it a try, and keep trying. It will get easier.
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Mary Carskadon from Brown University performed a study that lends weight to the point that teenagers are not at fault for their early-morning tiredness. She found that during puberty the sleep cycle shifts to around 11 PM, which leads to a significantly later natural wake-up time. In addition, Carskadon’s study found that teens are unable to fall asleep earlier even if physically exhausted, even with an appropriate time allowed for earlier sleep.
This is the problem. I've read her study, and she is correct in her findings.
-Penguin
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You may agree with her findings should be the correct way to say it. Perhaps a link to her study so I can make a decision about whether or not I think she is correct? How was her study done? Was it Q&A? How were the questions worded? The question, "What time do you go to bed?" doesn't say that nature is causing teens to stay up later. If so, teens would be sleeping a whole lot more in the winter and those in the arctic circle would hibernate. I'm not coming down on you, just giving you the feed back you asked for and would like to see how you got your info so I could have a better discussion knowing why and how you are making your argument.
EDIT: I found a link in your list of credits. But you didn't bother to mention this being said about the study in the very first paragraph!
The roots of the problem include poor teen sleep habits that do not allow for enough hours of quality sleep
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The changing of a time-zone is different. The sun comes up at a different time, and so does everything in the entire day. To attempt to sleep at the time one did in another time zone is foolish- the entire day fights against you. To prove my point, observe your sleep habits when you take a plane ride toward Grenwich, England. You will be tired in the middle of the day, and wide awake at night. Interestingly, if you fly away from Grenwich, England, you will get some of the best night's sleep ever for about a week. If you want to speak in terms of experience, I've been flying to and from Europe since the month after I was born. Frankfurt, Warsaw, Gdansk (aka Danzig), Heathrow, I've seen them all. I'm very well aware of what happens when you switch time zones.
I'm saying that Arizona and California are on the same time (during summer), yet the sun comes up at a different time. So that does not mean that it's easier to wake up in Arizona than it is in California.
When you go to Europe form the US the time changes almost 12 hours, that's a significant change. When I said about switching time zones I actually meant 2-3 hours.
If you choose not to believe doctors or scientific research, then try going without antibiotics when you get a nasty bacterial infection. You'd be surprised how tough life was before modern medicine. Depending on the bacteria, you might die.
-Penguin
I can't remember the last time I took antibiotics, hate them. Can't even remember the last time I went to the doctor for anything besides a medical.
Actually no, that's not true. Last May (at least I think it was May) I was feeling like crap for about two weeks. Was sleeping 18 hours a day (not because I had nothing better to do but because I could not stay awake), always feeling like crap, my body temperature was also way bellow normal. So after about a week and a half I went to the hospital, guess what they told me? They said that I'm perfectly ok. :rofl About 3-4 days later I was ok, the only "pills" I took were vitamins.
Also when I was 10 I went to the doctor for something (would rather not explain the details on a public forum). Actually I went to 3 different doctors about the same problem. They all came up with the same conclusion and I listened to them. Because of that I had a whole bunch of problems for the next 6 years. In the end it turned out that all of them were wrong. Sometime after I found out that they were all wrong and stopped listening to them all the problems were over. So I try to stay away from doctors.
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im a bit of an insomniac, i have to regulate my sleep scheduale. If i stay up late even one night, it usually screws up my entire sleep cycle.
It's gotten better tho. Last year insomnia used to hit me bad. I'd stay up for days straight. Seemed like the more tired i got, the harder my body felt to stay awake. I did all i could to wear myself, but to no avail.
Longest ive ever stayed up was 6 days. And even when i finally did go to sleep, i slept about, 3 hrs.
Its gotten better tho as ive said, which is good.
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If you choose not to believe doctors or scientific research, then try going without antibiotics when you get a nasty bacterial infection. You'd be surprised how tough life was before modern medicine. Depending on the bacteria, you might die.
Tsk tsk tsk... you should be ashamed. Someone who touts their debate skills all the time and you stoop to such an absurd strawman. I won't even address it any further.
I found a link in your list of credits. But you didn't bother to mention this being said about the study in the very first paragraph!
The roots of the problem include poor teen sleep habits that do not allow for enough hours of quality sleep
Could you point it out? I haven't found it yet, I first assumed he didn't list the source in his bibli at all.
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I'm saying that Arizona and California are on the same time (during summer), yet the sun comes up at a different time. So that does not mean that it's easier to wake up in Arizona than it is in California.
When you go to Europe form the US the time changes almost 12 hours, that's a significant change. When I said about switching time zones I actually meant 2-3 hours.
I can't remember the last time I took antibiotics, hate them. Can't even remember the last time I went to the doctor for anything besides a medical.
Actually no, that's not true. Last May (at least I think it was May) I was feeling like crap for about two weeks. Was sleeping 18 hours a day (not because I had nothing better to do but because I could not stay awake), always feeling like crap, my body temperature was also way bellow normal. So after about a week and a half I went to the hospital, guess what they told me? They said that I'm perfectly ok. :rofl About 3-4 days later I was ok, the only "pills" I took were vitamins.
Like I said, it's the Time Zone that has the biggest impact. If two Time Zones happen to be on the same time, then it would be just like having one big time zone. When you go from Europe to the US the time changes six hours. You're thinking of going to Asia (something that I would like to do one day). I don't see how sleeping for 18 hours per day and feeling awful for two weeks is not "tough".
You may agree with her findings should be the correct way to say it. Perhaps a link to her study so I can make a decision about whether or not I think she is correct? How was her study done? Was it Q&A? How were the questions worded? The question, "What time do you go to bed?" doesn't say that nature is causing teens to stay up later. If so, teens would be sleeping a whole lot more in the winter and those in the arctic circle would hibernate. I'm not coming down on you, just giving you the feed back you asked for and would like to see how you got your info so I could have a better discussion knowing why and how you are making your argument.
EDIT: I found the link in your list of credits. But you didn't bother to mention this being said about the study in the very first paragraph!
The roots of the problem include poor teen sleep habits that do not allow for enough hours of quality sleep
That is partially correct, the article says that only several students would not take advantage of the extra time. The rest took advantage of it. Thanks for the help, though, I added the citation in.
Tsk tsk tsk... you should be ashamed. Someone who touts their debate skills all the time and you stoop to such an absurd strawman. I won't even address it any further.
Strawman? No. A strawman would ignore the major points of his argument. My point about not using antibiotics directly adresses them- which MachFly later validates.
-Penguin
EDIT: Keep whacking away, guys, you're doing a great job! :) :salute
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Like I said, it's the Time Zone that has the biggest impact. If two Time Zones happen to be on the same time, then it would be just like having one big time zone. When you go from Europe to the US the time changes six hours. You're thinking of going to Asia (something that I would like to do one day). I don't see how sleeping for 18 hours per day and feeling awful for two weeks is not "tough".
Your not following me. You said that school needs to start later to that kids could have more sleep and that going to bed earlier will not help. In that case the only variable that's left is the position of the sun. So what about places where you have the same time over a large area? It's not like it's easier to wake up if you are more to the east.
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Strawman? No. A strawman would ignore the major points of his argument. My point about not using antibiotics directly adresses them- which MachFly later validates.
I never saw his little P.S. down there, my mistake.
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Before I worried about my medical I would take 2 benadryl before sleepy time - I was out cold in 30 minutes.
Tell all your friends to try that at about 8:30 - they wont wake up sleepy.
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Before I worried about my medical I would take 2 benadryl before sleepy time - I was out cold in 30 minutes.
Tell all your friends to try that at about 8:30 - they wont wake up sleepy.
What's benadryl? Is that the thing that someone puts it someone else's drink in the movies so they would fall asleep? If it is that shouldn't it be harmful for you when used on daily bases?
I tried googling for it but was blown away with all the medical terminology.
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What's benadryl? Is that the thing that someone puts it someone else's drink in the movies so they would fall asleep? If it is that shouldn't it be harmful for you when used on daily bases?
I tried googling for it but was blown away with all the medical terminology.
It's this little pink antihystamine - and ones if its sideaffects is extreme drowsiness.
I take allegra now - non-drowsy and it relieves my allergies.
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It's this little pink antihystamine - and ones if its sideaffects is extreme drowsiness.
I take allegra now - non-drowsy and it relieves my allergies.
Roger
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This is interesting to me, because I am an individual who requires a lot of sleep. Since I was born, I've slept ridiculous amounts. 18 hours a day was not uncommon. Now that I am a teenager, which means that I am naturally a selfish, miserable hulk. :D but back on topic, I have heard. From a number of different places/people that for every hour of sleep earned BEFORE midnight, the brain thinks it has actually received 2 hours of sleep. I walk to school in the winter. I live in Canada. I wake up at around 5 45-ish every school morning. If I don't go to bed by 10 30 or so, I will die in the first ciuple of periods. (School starts at 8. Calculate how long a walk that is, with 30 mins prep time.) IMO, if you find yourself tired, do a couple of things. First, simplify your mornings. Shower at night, pack lunch/backpack at night, whatever. Second, go to bed at least an hour before midnight. It will help. Also, to the adults who have posted, do remember that we are not adults. We are teenagers. :) just my 0.02$.
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Also, to the adults who have posted, do remember that we are not adults. We are teenagers. :) just my 0.02$.
Also, to the teenagers who have posted, do remember that we were teenagers too. We are adults.
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:lol penguin is at it again hey? i can see by your essay that you selected only data that supports your theory and left out other important data that was included in the studies you referenced, as in other physiological issues, socio-economic issues, environmental issues, etc... when you reference a person with a degree such as phd or md, you need to show their title. for instance the quoted studies of dr. mary carskadan or mary carskadan phd.
i'd give you a c for the effort, but that's just me.
oh and what canacka said...
That pushed back hour you speak of is in relation to when teens go to bed. They stay up watching more t.v. and playing on their computers. It's not puberty that has pushed back the hour, it's actions that they have taken over time that causes them to push their sleep cycle back. It can be a problem for some to go to bed earlier all of a sudden, but they can re-train their brain to get back to a more acceptable cycle. Adults that work different shifts during the week can do it and yes, some complain about it, but it is doable. Teens have never experienced having to do that so it seems that it's impossible. What I mean by that is what you haven't experienced gives you no reference such as what you thought was the worst pain you ever felt before and what you would classify as a 10 on the pain scale, changes when you experience pain that actually is worse. Give it a try, and keep trying. It will get easier.
change your lifestyle, you're a highly adaptable life form.
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:noid :noid :noid
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Early start times exacerbate this problem, and students must then cope with drowsiness, depression crime, death and maiming by horrific automobile crashes, and worst of all, reduced academic performance.
Worst of all grades! I think you should re-prioritize your values! lol
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:lol penguin is at it again hey? i can see by your essay that you selected only data that supports your theory and left out other important data that was included in the studies you referenced, as in other physiological issues, socio-economic issues, environmental issues, etc... when you reference a person with a degree such as phd or md, you need to show their title. for instance the quoted studies of dr. mary carskadan or mary carskadan phd.
i'd give you a c for the effort, but that's just me.
oh and what canacka said...change your lifestyle, you're a highly adaptable life form.
:aok.
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Suck it up and learn how to put yourself to sleep earlier. You whine like the end-dump drivers we have at work.
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All I am going to say is go to bed early enough to get the sleep your body requires. The school does not need to change their times simply b/c kids want them to. This is not a good argument to have them change their times. I get up at 4am and work 12hr and some time 16hr shifts. I still find time to eat, spend time with the family, and recreational time. School is a process of trying to help kids grow into responsible adults. They dont' need to cater to kids that is what is wrong with kids today they are handed everything and never have to work for it. I had a job when I was 12 on my uncles rice farm I had to wake up at 5 so I could get some work done before school and after school I went straight back to work. I always had time to do my homework. I still had time for school got a 3.0 gpa and still had time to spend with my friends. Oh and I didn't have to rely on my parents to buy me anything. So my advice is to grow up and be responsible stop trying to have things catered for you way of living.
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"Large scholarly work" made me lol a bit, sorry but I was expecting a link to a phd thesis :) .
That said, your paper is still tl;dr for me, god bless my work ethic!
J/K :)
In an attempt to be somewhat helpful I will make some "micro" suggestions.
You could really help out your second to last paragraph if you can find some stats on the other local schools who've switched their starting times. I didn't follow your link (lazy), so I'm not sure if they just made the change very recently or not. But if they haven't, what are the trends in their standardized test scores? Athletic Scores? You could grab an opinion or couple of quotes from an administrator in one of the schools who've made the switch. It would be much more influential if you made a point of saying, 10 other schools in our district have made the change and have already seen major improvements in attendance and XX% improvements on standardized tests/whatever you can find. Than if you were just to say 10 other schools have already changed to later starting times.
Also, check the SP on your REP.
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Your not following me. You said that school needs to start later to that kids could have more sleep and that going to bed earlier will not help. In that case the only variable that's left is the position of the sun. So what about places where you have the same time over a large area? It's not like it's easier to wake up if you are more to the east.
Going to bed earlier would help. However, due to the shift in sleep cycles that's just not possible. It's like asking a thousand (approximately the number of students in my high school) grown men to fall asleep at 19:00 or 20:00. Sure, a few might pull it off, but almost everyone else will be lying awake until around 21:00.
Your point about Arizona versus California is interesting, but it's well after nightfall at 22:00-23:00. The only exception could be the summer, but there isn't any school then.
-Penguin
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Penguin, I thought it was convincing, but that it was a little far fetched about automobile accidents. Even if you want to keep those points in if there is data to back it up, fine, but your conclusion
To conclude, Walpole’s students are depressed, numb and tired every morning. It is not their fault; their melatonin cycles have shifted, leaving them lagging behind everyone else. Early start times exacerbate this problem, and students must then cope with drowsiness, depression crime, death and maiming by horrific automobile crashes, and worst of all, reduced academic performance.
needs some serious work. It comes off as very whiney and exaggerated and that a high school student wrote it. Especially the line "death and maiming by horrific automobile crashes". I said Give me a freakin' break when I read that. I don't think you want your target audience to think you are full of **** when they finish your paper. And reduced academic performance is worse than getting killed in an automobile crash? :rofl
Your best bet would be to stick to believable points, such as statistics showing that later start times are a good thing. I personally thought the increased accidents was a stretch. Unless, thirty minutes to an hour longer from start times there is less work traffic or if there is some overnight frost on the ground, it has been given a chance to melt. Things like that, I don't buy that having a little less sleep is going to cause more accidents. I also thought it was a great point about later school end times bridges the gap between when most parents get home from work and keep teens out of trouble that way but you didn't expand upon it or even mention it in your conclusion.
I also did not like the line about walking "undead" in a serious toned paper.
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Going to bed earlier would help. However, due to the shift in sleep cycles that's just not possible. It's like asking a thousand (approximately the number of students in my high school) grown men to fall asleep at 19:00 or 20:00. Sure, a few might pull it off, but almost everyone else will be lying awake until around 21:00.
Your point about Arizona versus California is interesting, but it's well after nightfall at 22:00-23:00. The only exception could be the summer, but there isn't any school then.
-Penguin
you underestimate the power of human will and the level of adapability humans have. i'm willing to put money down that any adult with military or civil service (firemen, police, emt) experience can get at least 900 out of 1000 teenagers to change their sleep cycles in 7 days. i've personally witnessed 102 people age 18-23 change their sleep patterns within 7 days and constantly adapt to changing conditions for 13 weeks straight, all at the same time.
what they didn't do is sit in front of a television, computer or video game all day long and reflect on why they couldn't do something.
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Penguin, I thought it was convincing, but that it was a little far fetched about automobile accidents. Even if you want to keep those points in if there is data to back it up, fine, but your conclusion
To conclude, Walpole’s students are depressed, numb and tired every morning. It is not their fault; their melatonin cycles have shifted, leaving them lagging behind everyone else. Early start times exacerbate this problem, and students must then cope with drowsiness, depression crime, death and maiming by horrific automobile crashes, and worst of all, reduced academic performance.
needs some serious work. It comes off as very whiney and exaggerated and that a high school student wrote it. Especially the line "death and maiming by horrific automobile crashes". I said Give me a freakin' break when I read that. I don't think you want your target audience to think you are full of **** when they finish your paper. And reduced academic performance is worse than getting killed in an automobile crash? :rofl
Your best bet would be to stick to believable points, such as statistics showing that later start times are a good thing. I personally thought the increased accidents was a stretch. Unless, thirty minutes to an hour longer from start times there is less work traffic or if there is some overnight frost on the ground, it has been given a chance to melt. Things like that, I don't buy that having a little less sleep is going to cause more accidents. I also thought it was a great point about later school end times bridges the gap between when most parents get home from work and keep teens out of trouble that way but you didn't expand upon it or even mention it in your conclusion.
I also did not like the line about walking "undead" in a serious toned paper.
if only he heeds your advice grizz, nicely stated sir. :aok
i prefer the hammer method but, with all the different types of feedback he's getting, maybe by the time he reaches college he will be able to pass something besides english 101.
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you underestimate the power of human will and the level of adapability humans have. i'm willing to put money down that any adult with military or civil service (firemen, police, emt) experience can get at least 900 out of 1000 teenagers to change their sleep cycles in 7 days. i've personally witnessed 102 people age 18-23 change their sleep patterns within 7 days and constantly adapt to changing conditions for 13 weeks straight, all at the same time.
what they didn't do is sit in front of a television, computer or video game all day long and reflect on why they couldn't do something.
If Penguin comes up with data that shows teens in puberty naturally have a later sleep time and can also show data that schools that start school a little later have more positives that outweigh negatives, then he has proven his points. One big problem with starting school later is that after school activities get started later which he didn't mention.
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:lol penguin is at it again hey? i can see by your essay that you selected only data that supports your theory and left out other important data that was included in the studies you referenced, as in other physiological issues, socio-economic issues, environmental issues, etc... when you reference a person with a degree such as phd or md, you need to show their title. for instance the quoted studies of dr. mary carskadan or mary carskadan phd.
i'd give you a c for the effort, but that's just me.
oh and what canacka said...change your lifestyle, you're a highly adaptable life form.
1.) Please point out those issues, I don't see them. In addition, I'd like to know why I should do anything more than acknowledge the opposing point when I'm trying to show my administration the benefits of moving start times later. Imagine an ad for
2.) I'll reference their title as PhD. I missed that.
3.) I actually tried that. In 9th grade I'd be in bed at around 9:45 each night for a month. I'd hop in, and for around an hour I'd be tossing, turning, wide awake.
It's not just a matter of getting enough sleep. The whole circadian cycles shifts, which means that teenaged brains are still secreting the mix of hormones that make them sleepy when they need to be wide awake. The circadian cycle shifts back to 'normal' after puberty.
I was pretty sure that one of the studies I read said that, but I'll rewrite that opening statement. However, I thought that I removed every reference to zombies. I'll check for it. I must have missed it when I remade this from the first edition, which was for the school paper. I also need to acknowledge the opposition, good point.
-Penguin
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The most important aspect of any proposition paper is to convince the person (Or school district in this case) through COMPARISONS. Would the benefit of moving the start time to 8:20AM really outweigh all negatives that come with moving the start time back an hour? I mean over half the teenagers have a job or after school activities, or both, would cutting an hour out of that really benefit them more then an extra hour of sleep?
Lets' look at that extra hour for a second, when I was in High School I knew I had to be up at 6:20AM to be ready for school at 7:20AM...if all of a sudden I knew school started at 8:20AM all I would see is an extra hour to stay up late and play video games.
So really if you think about it, only a small fraction of teenagers would even benefit from this extra hour...those who do not work, do not have after school activities, do not have friends, and have no lives outside of an academic career...that is your top 1%. (That was a joke, do not get your underwear in a knot)
I would consider it to be a moral hazard, which means it will give someone the incentive to do the opposite of what it was intended to do. By you giving them and extra hour of "sleep," they get an extra hour of "play."
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However, as it stands today, you never get to choose at all. This gives everyone the opportunity to get the sleep that they need.
-Penguin
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This gives everyone the opportunity to get the sleep that they need.
How do you not have the opportunity to get the sleep you need now?
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Penguin, I thought it was convincing, but that it was a little far fetched about automobile accidents. Even if you want to keep those points in if there is data to back it up, fine, but your conclusion
To conclude, Walpole’s students are depressed, numb and tired every morning. It is not their fault; their melatonin cycles have shifted, leaving them lagging behind everyone else. Early start times exacerbate this problem, and students must then cope with drowsiness, depression crime, death and maiming by horrific automobile crashes, and worst of all, reduced academic performance.
needs some serious work. It comes off as very whiney and exaggerated and that a high school student wrote it. Especially the line "death and maiming by horrific automobile crashes". I said Give me a freakin' break when I read that. I don't think you want your target audience to think you are full of **** when they finish your paper. And reduced academic performance is worse than getting killed in an automobile crash? :rofl
Your best bet would be to stick to believable points, such as statistics showing that later start times are a good thing. I personally thought the increased accidents was a stretch. Unless, thirty minutes to an hour longer from start times there is less work traffic or if there is some overnight frost on the ground, it has been given a chance to melt. Things like that, I don't buy that having a little less sleep is going to cause more accidents. I also thought it was a great point about later school end times bridges the gap between when most parents get home from work and keep teens out of trouble that way but you didn't expand upon it or even mention it in your conclusion.
I also did not like the line about walking "undead" in a serious toned paper.
I think you missed this part here:
Academic and athletic achievements are not all that is at stake. A study from Kentucky (1, 4) evaluated the effects of delays in high-school start time in terms of hours of sleep and motor vehicle crashes. A one-hour delay in the school start time resulted in an average one-hour increase in the nightly sleep of the students. The average rates for car crashes among teen drivers dropped 16.5% over 2 years of the study, compared to two years before the study. Furthermore, the incidence of car crashes increased by 7.8% in the rest of the state over the same period.
What do you suppose would be a better way to put it? Should I take the adjectives off?
How do you not have the opportunity to get the sleep you need now?
Teenagers don't get sleepy early enough to get enough sleep.
GRIZZ! Here's my revised conclusion:
To conclude, Walpole’s students are depressed, numb and tired every morning. It is not their fault; their melatonin cycles have shifted leaving them lagging behind everyone else. Early start times exacerbate this problem, and students face drowsiness, depression, crime, car crashes, and reduced academic performance because of it.
-Penguin
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I think you missed this part here:
What do you suppose would be a better way to put it? Should I take the adjectives off?
Teenagers don't get sleepy early enough to get enough sleep.
-Penguin
Question Penguin about the motor accidents,
if we were to start an hour later, do you agree that not ALL teenagers will take advantage of this extra hour?
If you do agree, then do you agree that these teenagers are more than likely the teenagers that care more about having fun with parties and what not than school?
If you do agree, then you therefore have to agree that these same teenagers will be out at night an hour later than usual after these parties...
...my question is, would this shift of saving people in the morning outweigh these teenagers being out later at night and causing more accidents?
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A one-hour delay in the school start time resulted in an average one-hour increase in the nightly sleep of the students.
The kids will sleep more if you give them time to. On the question of them staying out later and causing more accidents, I honestly don't know. Not all teenagers who stay up late are necessarily outside, Facebook, Twitter, and text-messaging are also major causes. Also, perhaps you've over-estimated the autonomy of the kids. I don't think that their parents would let them party out to 23:00 or 0:00 on a school night.
-Penguin
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The kids will sleep more if you give them time to. On the question of them staying out later and causing more accidents, I honestly don't know. Not all teenagers who stay up late are necessarily outside, Facebook, Twitter, and text-messaging are also major causes. Also, perhaps you've over-estimated the autonomy of the kids. I don't think that their parents would let them party out to 23:00 or 0:00 on a school night.
-Penguin
Most parents do not allow teens to be out, but I promise it does not stop most teenagers....just ask me :t
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Teenagers don't get sleepy early enough to get enough sleep.
That is BS. If you wake up later you'll just get tired later. If you find yourself incapable of going to sleep until 11PM now, all pushing school back an hour or two will just make you want to go to sleep at midnight or 1AM. You don't get tired based on where the sun is in the sky, you get tired based on how long you've been awake and how hard you've worked that day.
The kids will sleep more if you give them time to.
Again, you already have more than enough time to sleep. You're not asking for school to be shorter, you're asking it for it to start later, so you're not asking for more time.
Oh, and kids will not sleep more if they're given more time to anyway. The fact that you believe that is comical.
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I was in a sleep schedule over the sumemr where I would go to sleep at about 7 and wake up at 5AM - and I got in another bad one where I would go to bed at 3 and wake up at 1ish
Sleep schedule has nothing to do with maturity level.
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i go to bed at 11:00 PM, wake up at 6:00 AM and get to school at 7:40 AM. tell me how hard it is to wake up after getting the reccomended 7-8 hours of sleep each night?
during the summer i'd pull all nighters, go to bed at 6 AM, and wake up at 4 PM. if i actually slept my normal summer schedule then it was bed at 2 AM and wake up at 9 PM.
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That is BS. If you wake up later you'll just get tired later. If you find yourself incapable of going to sleep until 11PM now, all pushing school back an hour or two will just make you want to go to sleep at midnight or 1AM. You don't get tired based on where the sun is in the sky, you get tired based on how long you've been awake and how hard you've worked that day.
Again, you already have more than enough time to sleep. You're not asking for school to be shorter, you're asking it for it to start later, so you're not asking for more time.
Oh, and kids will not sleep more if they're given more time to anyway. The fact that you believe that is comical.
What scientific evidence do you have to back yourself up? You can force yourself to go to bed at an unnatural hour, (e.g., having midnight watch on a schooner), but left to your own devices, you will rise and retire based on ambient light. If you aren't addicted to electronics, that light should be the sun.
Again, stare the facts in the face. These are the quoted results of the study by Fred Danner, Ph.D.; Barbra Phillips, M.D., M.S.P.H.
Results: Average hours of nightly sleep increased and catch-up sleep on weekends decreased. Average crash rates for teen drivers in the county in the 2 years after the change in school start times dropped 16.5%, ompared witht the 2 years prior to the change, whereas teen crash rates for the rest of the state increased 7.8% over the same time period.
My only change is that I bolded what I wanted to emphasize. You have made a completely unsubstantiated claim, which you have then continued to repeat ad nauseum. I have refuted every one of your claims, and used hard data to back up my refutations. Furthermore, every one of my points is well substantiated by respected authorities on the matters thereof.
i go to bed at 11:00 PM, wake up at 6:00 AM and get to school at 7:40 AM. tell me how hard it is to wake up after getting the reccomended 7-8 hours of sleep each night?
during the summer i'd pull all nighters, go to bed at 6 AM, and wake up at 4 PM. if i actually slept my normal summer schedule then it was bed at 2 AM and wake up at 9 PM.
Teenagers need 8 1/2 to 9 hours, on average. As with any average, there will be outliers.
-Penguin
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What scientific evidence do you have to back yourself up? You can force yourself to go to bed at an unnatural hour, (e.g., having midnight watch on a schooner), but left to your own devices, you will rise and retire based on ambient light. If you aren't addicted to electronics, that light should be the sun.
[/b]
Ok so based on what you just said (in bold)yourself no matter if school starts later you will still get up at the same time b/c of the light. Therefore if they were to grant you an extra hour before school you wouldn't use it to sleep b/c the ambient light will wake you up.:old:
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Ah, ah, ah, not so fast. I said that if left to one's own devices (e.g., not forcibly woken up via alarm clock or parent) one will sleep and wake based on ambient light. This is true, but school start time cuts sleep short. This means that there is a disconnection between the students' circadian rythym and school start times. If start times changed, then students would get more sleep because they'd still fall asleep based on ambient light, but also wake up due to ambient light after good night's rest.
-Penguin
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so black out the windows in your room and stop whining.
and from experience, changing start times helps for about 2 days, then your body adjusts and your back where you started.
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you underestimate the power of human will and the level of adapability humans have. i'm willing to put money down that any adult with military or civil service (firemen, police, emt) experience can get at least 900 out of 1000 teenagers to change their sleep cycles in 7 days. i've personally witnessed 102 people age 18-23 change their sleep patterns within 7 days and constantly adapt to changing conditions for 13 weeks straight, all at the same time.
what they didn't do is sit in front of a television, computer or video game all day long and reflect on why they couldn't do something.
I agree, if you really want it it can be done.
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Going to bed earlier would help. However, due to the shift in sleep cycles that's just not possible. It's like asking a thousand (approximately the number of students in my high school) grown men to fall asleep at 19:00 or 20:00. Sure, a few might pull it off, but almost everyone else will be lying awake until around 21:00.
Your point about Arizona versus California is interesting, but it's well after nightfall at 22:00-23:00. The only exception could be the summer, but there isn't any school then.
-Penguin
When does daylight saving time start and end?
I'm sure it's well into the school year.
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a different (unfashionably non-kidcentric) angle on this:
kids go to school to learn from adult teachers. the day should therefore be set up so that the teachers are at their sharpest.
:headscratch:
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Pushing back the start time will give teens an extra hour? Your forgetting that it pushes everything else back an hour, unless you think there are actually 25 hrs in a day.
You asked someone else for scientific evidence about where they came up with their findings. I asked before, will you please show me proof of the findings you speak of? I.E. the study that you said was conducted. Not an article that talks about it, the actual study. You can't put the study in an argumentative paper with a bibliography and not put it in there.
Again, I'm not coming down on you. I already gave my advice to the solution of the problem. However, I would still like to see this study because it seems that you happened to find out about something that may support you wanting that extra hour and are running with it.
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Ah, ah, ah, not so fast. I said that if left to one's own devices (e.g., not forcibly woken up via alarm clock or parent) one will sleep and wake based on ambient light.
This is odd to me as I wake up religiously at 0330, whether the alarm goes off or not.
It could be because I've disciplined myself enough to go to bed at a reasonable hour.
But I do remember being a teen, what with all those hormones going crazy and what-not. :lol Sleep was something I did during study hall or on the weekends. I guess kids these days just aren't hardcore enough to realize that being moody and worn out is part of life.
Only little girls need beauty sleep. :rock
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This is odd to me as I wake up religiously at 0330, whether the alarm goes off or not.
It could be because I've disciplined myself enough to go to bed at a reasonable hour.
But I do remember being a teen, what with all those hormones going crazy and what-not. :lol Sleep was something I did during study hall or on the weekends. I guess kids these days just aren't hardcore enough to realize that being moody and worn out is part of life.
Only little girls need beauty sleep. :rock
That is an oddly masochistic point of view. Your point about hormones is dead-on; puberty has done this to us. On the point of waking up at 3:30, that's either not true, or there is something very different about you.
Pushing back the start time will give teens an extra hour? Your forgetting that it pushes everything else back an hour, unless you think there are actually 25 hrs in a day.
You asked someone else for scientific evidence about where they came up with their findings. I asked before, will you please show me proof of the findings you speak of? I.E. the study that you said was conducted. Not an article that talks about it, the actual study. You can't put the study in an argumentative paper with a bibliography and not put it in there.
Again, I'm not coming down on you. I already gave my advice to the solution of the problem. However, I would still like to see this study because it seems that you happened to find out about something that may support you wanting that extra hour and are running with it.
Here is the citation of the study that indicates that teenagers get more sleep if given the chance:
Danner F; Phillips B. Adolescent sleep, school start times, and teen motor vehicle crashes. J Clin Sleep Med 2008; 4(6): 533-535
If you want to see images of the study, that is another matter because my scanner is broken.
-Penguin
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I haven't read all the discussion so far but I can only assume it's full of "I had to do it when I was a kid, you should have to, too." Changing things like this is very difficult because sometimes there is a fine line between doing what is best for our children and weakening our children. One of our city high schools recently approved the purchase of iPads for students to use instead of some textbooks. There were plenty who felt they shouldn't because when they were in school, they had to haul around books.
From an academic standpoint, here's what I see wrong with your paper:
-Extensive use of one source, this NSF website. You are citing research that they cite in their article, rather than simply citing the article itself. The NSF has an agenda, although it may be a noble one, it still leads them to choose how to interpret the data. I though I saw that you maybe had read her paper, well, you should be able to just cite it instead.
-Some of the data from Carskadon is 30+ years old. That doesn't necessarily mean it is bad data, but you can become less able to generalize data from that long ago. Some is more recent, but even most of the NSF data is simply citing Carskadon.
-I don't know how they do it now, but I could never, ever, cite Wiki for a paper. Wiki is a good resource for starting out, and usually link to real data, but shouldn't be used as a source. For example, you biological clock .png file was done by user YassineMrabet; can you tell me the academic credentials or YassineMrabet and why I should trust him/her?
-The references are suppose to be a way for someone to go and look at the data you looked at. Sometimes that was just impossible to do; what is up with citation #6, just a quote?
My main point is that although the point has some validity, how can anyone believe it if we can't trust the data? I don't know what resources your school has, but if you have access to PSYCINFO, you will have access to thousands of real empirical articles on sleep.
P.S. No one is going to profit off your paper...
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On the point of waking up at 3:30, that's either not true, or there is something very different about you.
Actually, I was exaggerating a little.
Sometimes I wake up at 0320. Sometimes I won't wake up until around 0335, at which time I start to freak out until I realize it's Sunday.
There is nothing "very different" about me. I think you'll find that many adults who grow accustomed to a routine have the same type of sleep cycle. (Different hours perhaps, but same nonetheless.)
As far as school children go, I see no reason to change the schedule of an academic institution and the people that it employs just so some whiny children can get a bit more shuteye. After all, with school starting later I feel most kids would simply use the opportunity to stay up later. Whether their parents know it or not.
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Eventually you will have to accept responsibility for your own actions. Blaming puberty, or sunlight or other
people for your poor performance at something as important as school is weak. It may come as a shock, but the
world does not revolve around your sense of entitlement.
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@Melvin You're making sweeping generalizations about children's behavior without backup. The hour piqued my interest, not when you went to bed. Whiny? Hardly. If I can get a higher GPA because I get more sleep, that's not being whiny at all. That's being smart.
@Jayhawk. PM or post me the agenda of the NSF, if you please. Two of my sources are from the Nation Sleep Foundation. Are there more? Remember, my bibliography looks wacky only because I haven't finished the paper.
Wikipedia is actually quite reliable now. Many articles are edit-protected, articles like 'Sleep' also have back-ups and several moderators who check for errors often.
Eventually you will have to accept responsibility for your own actions. Blaming puberty, or sunlight or other
people for your poor performance at something as important as school is weak. It may come as a shock, but the
world does not revolve around your sense of entitlement.
Did I say that I was performing poorly in school? I'm in four Honors classes and one AP class, which is as high as you can go during Sophmore year. I'm not blaming it, blame is something you put on an agent that has a choice. I had no choice in becoming pubescent (that's not to say that I wanted to remain a child). The problem does not lie in our choices, it lies in our bodies. The research is there to back it up.
-Penguin
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I had no choice in becoming pubescent
Your blaming this on being pubescent. Then maybe you have a point because none of us giving you advise never were. :rolleyes: Everything I have said I have said considering how I felt back then and what I did to get over it. You asked what you can do to improve your paper but everything stated about proving points by showing where you got your info falls on deaf ears. I do not think you want that, but to only make your paper better to prove your point. You must, and this is the third time I have asked, provide the study that you said was done that you are backing so much. If you continue not to do so, you will continue to get the negativity you are receiving from others. I'm trying to help you out here but it seems that's not what you are looking for. You have not experienced life as much as others yet who have been through it. Yet you continue to go with what you want because you want what you want. Stop talking about melatonin and other such so called studies if you do not provide the actual study! If that's the case, then what you call an essay is only an argumentative paper meant for a debate. Either way, you are not providing enough facts to make your point and those on your school board who have been through adolescents will see it the same way. If you truly want to try this out with us, then give us what we ask for. We've been there, done that.
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@Jayhawk. PM or post me the agenda of the NSF, if you please. Two of my sources are from the Nation Sleep Foundation. Are there more? Remember, my bibliography looks wacky only because I haven't finished the paper.
Wikipedia is actually quite reliable now. Many articles are edit-protected, articles like 'Sleep' also have back-ups and several moderators who check for errors often.
Just read the "About Us" page. Don't think of agenda with such a negative connotation. They have a mission, a goal they strive for, that means they are not completely unbiased. Use the data they cite to find these resources, instead of just taking their word for the interpretation.
Wikipedia is still Wikipedia. Your teacher should not allow you to use it as a source and I guarantee you your college professors will not allow you to use it.
Proper resources and research is vital, so don't expect us to take your research seriously if you don't have a complete bibliography.
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I'm 19, all through high school and even now, I slept for about 6 hours. If you feel like crap in the morning, take a shower. 10 minutes of your time wakes you up instantly. I'm so used to it now, that if I don't shower in the morning, I can't open my eyes until halfway through the day.
Let's be realistic, it's really hard to find a person that gets 8-9 hours of sleep every night. Most get 5-6 and some even less, and some only get naps because they wake up randomly in the middle of the night. Suck it up, when you get a job, it's going to be worse or the same.
Take a shower, go for a run, or drink coffee if you want, that's how I get through my 5-6 hours of sleep.
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Here's a video that follows an experiment run by Dr. Claudio Stampi. In it he is testing the Uberman's Sleep Schedule of polyphasic sleep. The test subject was able to to adapt to sleeping only 3 hours a day (six 30min naps) and was able function remarkably well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myi2sRph69A
Here's what Dr. Piotr Wozniak has to say about the subject:
Polyphasic Sleep
Polyphasic sleep is quite widespread in animal kingdom. In a recapitulation of phylogeny, human babies also sleep polyphasically, and gradually lose their nap slots until they become roughly biphasic around the age of one. Human adults, as much as all great apes, are largely biphasic. Although a majority of westerners do not nap on a regular basis their alertness shows a slump in alertness in the middle of the subjective day. This slump can consolidate in a short block of sleep in free-running conditions.
The theory behind the Uberman's Sleep Schedule is that with some effort, we can entrain our brain to sleep along the ancient polyphasic cycle and gain lots of waking time on the way, mostly by shedding the lesser important stages of sleep (e.g. shortening Stage 1 of NREM, which seems to be just a transition state to the more "useful" stages of slow wave sleep).
http://www.supermemo.com/articles/polyphasic.htm#Polyphasic sleep (http://www.supermemo.com/articles/polyphasic.htm#Polyphasic sleep)
Claudio Stampi
Probably nobody knows more about polyphasic sleep than Dr Claudio Stampi. He dedicated his life to understanding ultradian rhythms and the art of napping. His passion for the idea was born three decades ago when, as a medical student, he was also a passionate solo sailor. He studied sleep in dozens of individuals taking part in competitive sailing. He studied sleep patterns for NASA. He studied polyphasic sleep in laboratory conditions. He strapped his subject with wrist-worn activity monitors and EEG electrodes. He is a worshipper of napping as nothing counteracts sleep deprivation and fatigue better than a nap. In his work, he looks for ways towards improving alertness and survival in life-threatening situations, esp. long-distance boat racing. Yet he is not recommending the polyphasic schedule for normally functioning creative individual who can afford a full night of healthy sleep. His alleged "recommendation" is just one of those myths circulating along with the polyphasic sleep meme. Using polysomnographic tools, Stampi looks for troughs and peaks of alertness. His research tries to capitalize on understanding those ultradian rhythms and maximizing the effectiveness of napping, primarily by optimizing the timing of naps. Today he is the most recognized expert in the field.
Stampi has shown that polyphasic sleep can improve cognitive performance in conditions of sleep deprivation as compared with monophasic sleep: Individuals sleeping for 30 minutes every four hours, for a daily total of only 3 hours of sleep, performed better and were more alert, compared to when they had 3 hours of uninterrupted sleep. In other words, under conditions of dramatic sleep reduction, it is more efficient to recharge the sleep "battery" more often. Many use this as the argument for the superiority of polyphasic sleep, while silently skirting around the fact that Stampi also notes that the performance on polyphasic schedule is still far less than that in free running sleep conditions.
http://www.supermemo.com/articles/polyphasic.htm#Claudio Stampi (http://www.supermemo.com/articles/polyphasic.htm#Claudio Stampi)
Scientists are still learning about sleep, and apparently there is no one way to sleep. All this copy+pasting is just food for thought.
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Your blaming this on being pubescent. Then maybe you have a point because none of us giving you advise never were. :rolleyes: Everything I have said I have said considering how I felt back then and what I did to get over it. You asked what you can do to improve your paper but everything stated about proving points by showing where you got your info falls on deaf ears. I do not think you want that, but to only make your paper better to prove your point. You must, and this is the third time I have asked, provide the study that you said was done that you are backing so much. If you continue not to do so, you will continue to get the negativity you are receiving from others. I'm trying to help you out here but it seems that's not what you are looking for. You have not experienced life as much as others yet who have been through it. Yet you continue to go with what you want because you want what you want. Stop talking about melatonin and other such so called studies if you do not provide the actual study! If that's the case, then what you call an essay is only an argumentative paper meant for a debate. Either way, you are not providing enough facts to make your point and those on your school board who have been through adolescents will see it the same way. If you truly want to try this out with us, then give us what we ask for. We've been there, done that.
Here is the name of the study, I believe that I've already posted it, but here it is again.
Danner F; Phillips B. Adolescent sleep, school start times, and teen motor vehicle crashes. J Clin Sleep Med 2008; 4(6): 533-535
Look it up, it was published in the Journal of Clinical Sleep Medicine (JCSM) in September of 2008.
Here's a video that follows an experiment run by Dr. Claudio Stampi. In it he is testing the Uberman's Sleep Schedule of polyphasic sleep. The test subject was able to to adapt to sleeping only 3 hours a day (six 30min naps) and was able function remarkably well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myi2sRph69A
Here's what Dr. Piotr Wozniak has to say about the subject:
http://www.supermemo.com/articles/polyphasic.htm#Polyphasic sleep (http://www.supermemo.com/articles/polyphasic.htm#Polyphasic sleep)
http://www.supermemo.com/articles/polyphasic.htm#Claudio Stampi (http://www.supermemo.com/articles/polyphasic.htm#Claudio Stampi)
Scientists are still learning about sleep, and apparently there is no one way to sleep. All this copy+pasting is just food for thought.
Scientists are still learning about everything, from atoms to zygotes to 1-dimensional strings to the billions of lightyears of the universe. Just because we are learning about something, does not mean that we do not understand what we have learned. I find the report interesting, though. However, students are not able to have free-running sleep schedules, nor can they sleep during the middle of the day. We're stuck with a biphasic system, so we need to make the most of it.
-Penguin
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However, students are not able to have free-running sleep schedules, nor can they sleep during the middle of the day. We're stuck with a biphasic system, so we need to make the most of it.
Half the man's sleep was during the day, so how can you say a student can't go to bed when the sun's up and wake when it's down? A student may be stuck with a biphasic schedule, but the study I cited shows you are perfectly capable of sleeping no matter the time of day.
If you still have trouble, get thicker drapes. And check this little gizmo out, supported by the very foundation you listed in your bibli: http://www.usa.philips.com/c/light-therapy/11625/cat/?tab=Wake+up+naturally#/cp_tab4
It’s an alarm clock that wakes you by gradually getting brighter 30 minutes before your wake up time, simulating a natural sunrise. It’s a more natural way to wake up that may give you more energy and improve your mood in the morning.
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Here is the name of the study, I believe that I've already posted it, but here it is again.
Danner F; Phillips B. Adolescent sleep, school start times, and teen motor vehicle crashes. J Clin Sleep Med 2008; 4(6): 533-535
Look it up, it was published in the Journal of Clinical Sleep Medicine (JCSM) in September of 2008.
-Penguin
I saw that one in the bibl. but what about the one I originally talked about in which you said you read her study, and she was correct in her findings? The one from Colorado? Besides, I, like whoever your intending this paper for, should not have to do the leg work themselves and look it up or take your word for it. Give me a link or something but don't tell them to look it up. If you want to make your point with whoever in your school board sees this, provide it. If not they will discard it without a second thought.
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There is an easy solution........... Go to bed earlier. Dont play on the computer, social network, or stay up past midnight cause "everyone else does it"
:rolleyes:
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Sleep is not important. Ask the Army! :D I sleep 3 hours a night. Just something ya get used to. If I sleep longer, I tend to get bad migraines. I'd rather be tired than go through that hell.
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Sleep is not important. Ask the Army! :D I sleep 3 hours a night. Just something ya get used to. If I sleep longer, I tend to get bad migraines. I'd rather be tired than go through that hell.
i get the same if i happen to get on a 3 hr nap a day routine, then one morning happen to sleep 7 hrs, i'll wake up with a headsplitting migraine. :uhoh
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I saw that one in the bibl. but what about the one I originally talked about in which you said you read her study, and she was correct in her findings? The one from Colorado? Besides, I, like whoever your intending this paper for, should not have to do the leg work themselves and look it up or take your word for it. Give me a link or something but don't tell them to look it up. If you want to make your point with whoever in your school board sees this, provide it. If not they will discard it without a second thought.
I don't know where to find it, but I have a paper copy.
There is an easy solution........... Go to bed earlier. Dont play on the computer, social network, or stay up past midnight cause "everyone else does it"
:rolleyes:
Do you honestly believe that if I were voluntarily staying up at night that I would have gone to all this trouble? I'm not stupid.
-Penguin
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I don't know where to find it, but I have a paper copy.
Do you honestly believe that if I were voluntarily staying up at night that I would have gone to all this trouble? I'm not stupid.
-Penguin
I haven't been following your discussion with canacka, but cite whatever source you've got. Author, title, year, journal, page, etc.
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There are many sleep aids available in this day and age, and many of them are free. Since you are using both puberty, and hormones as the reason for teenagers not being able to sleep. Here is a suggestion, take your IPhone, android, or iPad into the bathroom, or someplace you can be alone, go to one of the multiple sleep assistance sites watch a sleep assistance video, or pictures, and spend some time meditating on what you have seen, I promise that in a few minutes you will be ready to sleep, and it will also be a good work out for your dominate hand and arm. I assure you that this method of sleep assistance has been working since before there were iPads iPhones, and smart phones. Not only that it does assist in the curbing of the over aggressiveness due to raging hormones. I can not give any sources for this but I go promise it will work.
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I find that the time and timing at which I wake up is much more important that the overall length of the sleep. If you wake me up at 05:00 I will be a zombie no matter if I slep 3 or 8 hours before that. Timing means when in the sleep cycle I wake up and how. If someone wakes me up from deep slumber and I have to jump out of bed, it will take me hours to recover from that. If on the other hand I wake during shallow sleep and given a few minutes to roll in bed before getting on my feet, I will be fully awake once I wash my face.
This also changed with age. My 20s were the easiest in sleep. I could go with 4 hours a night for very extended period and quickly wake up even in the middle of the night. As a teenager the mornings were difficult. Now in my late 30s I can still manange with 4-5 hours a night, as long as I dont wake up before 06:30 or so.
I can believe that shifting the highschools sched an hour later will improve the situation for teenage students. Absolute time matters, not just the total number of sleeping hours. This is true especially in winter when in many countries the waking hours are still dark.
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I stopped reading at "High School Students are chronically sleep deprived"
:rofl
high school students don't know how easy they've got it
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I stopped reading at "High School Students are chronically sleep deprived"
:rofl
high school students don't know how easy they've got it
You make it sound like High School students did the study themselves.
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You make it sound like High School students did the study themselves.
last year in middle school the 7th graders had to write about a rare animal, and get this-it was actually published on a website.
maybe highschoolers did write this?
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last year in middle school the 7th graders had to write about a rare animal, and get this-it was actually published on a website.
maybe highschoolers did write this?
Published on a website... woohoo. Do you have a link?
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I have roughly 3,000 published posts on a website.
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Published on a website... woohoo. Do you have a link?
the website was for "future middle schoolers" so they could "study" it, and you need an account to sign in and actually look at it, id give the link, but the school gives you the account, then when you leave, they take it back from you. so i dont think im getting that link soon.
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You make it sound like High School students did the study themselves.
(http://www.tribalwar.com/forums/images/smilies/freak5.gif)
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Show me this, filled out, paid for and copyright granted to you... http://www.copyright.gov/forms/formtx.pdf (http://www.copyright.gov/forms/formtx.pdf)
Otherwise, I'm going to sell your essay for money.
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One,Two, Freddys coming for you.... :t
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Parents enforce bedtime. Teenager has no issues waking up at 6AM. The end.
Id give you an A.
Rhino
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Show me this, filled out, paid for and copyright granted to you... http://www.copyright.gov/forms/formtx.pdf (http://www.copyright.gov/forms/formtx.pdf)
Otherwise, I'm going to sell your essay for money.
:lol Go ahead, just tell them I wrote it.
Parents enforce bedtime. Teenager has no issues waking up at 6AM. The end.
Id give you an A.
Rhino
That's the trouble, even if I'm in bed at 21:00 sharp, I'm wide awake. Read up on how hormones shift during puberty and you'll see why. In addition, it's not just getting enough sleep; even if I forced myself to fall asleep, I'd still be drowsy in the morning due to my hormones not telling my body to wake up yet.
-Penguin
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That's the trouble, even if I'm in bed at 21:00 sharp, I'm wide awake. Read up on how hormones shift during puberty and you'll see why. In addition, it's not just getting enough sleep; even if I forced myself to fall asleep, I'd still be drowsy in the morning due to my hormones not telling my body to wake up yet.
-Penguin
you're just making excuses. guarantee if you went out and did some manual labor for 8 to 10 hours a day you would not have any problems falling asleep. and you really should check your diet, i'm betting there are some things you consume that contribute to your inability to fall asleep.
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That's the trouble, even if I'm in bed at 21:00 sharp, I'm wide awake. Read up on how hormones shift during puberty and you'll see why. In addition, it's not just getting enough sleep; even if I forced myself to fall asleep, I'd still be drowsy in the morning due to my hormones not telling my body to wake up yet.
-Penguin
[/quote]
Stop blaming it on hormones! You just haven't grown up enough yet to understand how to deal with it. Why is it just now an issue? I started school at 7:20am and no one talked about how early it was. It seems you found something to blame it on to turn away from the fact that you just don't want to wake up. Either that or you are just lazy.
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you're just making excuses. guarantee if you went out and did some manual labor for 8 to 10 hours a day you would not have any problems falling asleep. and you really should check your diet, i'm betting there are some things you consume that contribute to your inability to fall asleep.
This, this, this!
After a ten-hour day in a sawmill I can fall asleep at a moment's notice. So long as I make sure that moment isn't too close to midnight I wake up at 5:30 with a jolt and plenty of energy for the next day. EVEN THOUGH IT'S DARK :O
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Doing manual labor for 8-10 hours a day wouldn't help. Even if I didn't do homework and travelled between places instantaneously, I'd be home at 22:05 at the earliest. Slap on homework and I'm worse off than I was before- 23:30 or even 0:00. Furthermore, I did twleve hours of manual labor (4 hours on, eight hours off, plus hikes on shore) daily for two weeks on a ship, and was still sleepy on the midnight watch and in the morning. My diet is fine, thank-you. I eat a turkey sandwich with orange juice for breakfast, a turkey sandwich with orange juice and an apple for lunch, and pasta/rice with skinless chicken with the fat trimmed off for dinner. For dessert, a couple of scoops of ice-cream. Diet isn't the problem at all. In fact, I've been underweight for a long time- I just got back to normal.
This isn't an excuse, it's fact.
-snip-
Stop blaming it on hormones! You just haven't grown up enough yet to understand how to deal with it. Why is it just now an issue? I started school at 7:20am and no one talked about how early it was. It seems you found something to blame it on to turn away from the fact that you just don't want to wake up. Either that or you are just lazy.
You're precisely correct on the not grown up enough yet part. It's only during puberty that sleep cycles shift so dramatically. Why should I stop blaming it on hormones? I have the data to back me up, and all you have is a failed attempt to take the moral high ground. Just because the practice is old doesn't make it good, nobody talked about slavery being wrong for millenia, and yet it is all but abolished worldwide. In addition, both my parents (both over age 40) went to school at 8:00ish. It just takes one person to realize that the current system is flawed, and fight their heart out to change it or die trying. If I really were so lazy as to not want to wake up so early in the morning, I would be too lazy to write this.
-Penguin
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Stop blaming it on hormones! You just haven't grown up enough yet to understand how to deal with it. Why is it just now an issue? I started school at 7:20am and no one talked about how early it was. It seems you found something to blame it on to turn away from the fact that you just don't want to wake up. Either that or you are just lazy.
For the record, I haven't really taken a stance on this issue, but to say that adolescents and adults have the same bodies is just not true. There are biological differences between the two that can't be "learned."
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In addition, adolescence is a key developmental period. Screw with it too much and you get some nasty results.
-Penguin
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Why should I stop blaming it on hormones? I have the data to back me up
-Penguin
[/quote]
Dude you completely missed what I said and obviously, you are too young to understand. I have been there, forget about what ever scientific data you say you have. So many others here have been there. You say it's being a teenager, but do you really think we all here forgot what it's like? Maybe it's you that has the problem waking up and not the majority of others. You found some random thing that backs your feelings up and you think you can make a case but you fail to take in the other side of the story. You continue to call your "paper" an essay when it is clearly an argumentative paper meant for a debate. A debate that can be rebutted because you fail to take both sides. That is a true essay. Many here have given you advice without putting you down including me, but your reactions are getting a little irritating. No matter what we say you keep going back to what some random person said in some paper. You say you have a paper copy and not a link? Copy it and post it here, I want to see it. I like sleep too bud, I love sleeping in. It's rare for me to get that opportunity but I have a job, kids to get ready for school, yada yada yada, so as you can see you better get used to it. No one ever did a study about hormones in adults and lack of sleep did they? That's because we have the same as teens but got used to it! Theres nothing special and different between the ages of 13 and 19 that differs from adults in regards to sleep. Suck it up, get used to it, and I'll see you bright and early tomorrow morning, or will I?
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I'll see what I can do about it. I think my school's library has a scanner.
It's not just me, that's the issue. If it were just me, I would have noticed. Hormones most certainly change after puberty. Growth hormone plummets, and so do the sex hormones (but at a slower pace). It's true that we all have some, just like all men have some estrogen (ever wonder why a couple of lumps formed under your nipples during puberty?), but not a significant amount.
So what you're saying is:
- The studies are meaningless
- I am completely at fault, much to the disagreement with the aforementioned studies
- I have not acknowledged the opposing points.
- I am alone in this issue, much to the disagreement of the aforementioned studes
The studies being meaningless doesn't really make sense. They are sound and support my point. Unless you can come up with more studies that point to the current method being better than mine, then they are also representative of the research done on the subject.
The aforementioned studies clearly show why many other teens and I cannot get enough sleep and wake up early enough. Unless you're up until 0:00, it's melatonin's doing, not your own.
Perhaps I didn't acknowledge the opposition clearly enough. I will make that edit, thank-you for pointing it out.
-Penguin
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I'll see what I can do about it. I think my school's library has a scanner.
It's not just me, that's the issue. If it were just me, I would have noticed. Hormones most certainly change after puberty. Growth hormone plummets, and so do the sex hormones (but at a slower pace). It's true that we all have some, just like all men have some estrogen (ever wonder why a couple of lumps formed under your nipples during puberty?), but not a significant amount.
So what you're saying is:
- The studies are meaningless
- I am completely at fault, much to the disagreement with the aforementioned studies
- I have not acknowledged the opposing points.
- I am alone in this issue, much to the disagreement of the aforementioned studes
The studies being meaningless doesn't really make sense. They are sound and support my point. Unless you can come up with more studies that point to the current method being better than mine, then they are also representative of the research done on the subject.
The aforementioned studies clearly show why many other teens and I cannot get enough sleep and wake up early enough. Unless you're up until 0:00, it's melatonin's doing, not your own.
Perhaps I didn't acknowledge the opposition clearly enough. I will make that edit, thank-you for pointing it out.
-Penguin
What I mean is why is it that only recently has it been such a problem? I dealt with it just fine. I went to bed early, got up in time for school , and still had energy for after school activities. You talk as if this should be something new but why hasn't it been brought up before? Ask the smartest kid in your class what they do for their sleep ritual and see what they say. I'm not saying studies are meaningless, but I say they are meaningless to be brought into a discussion without disclosing them. I'm not going to take your word for it, I want to see it and then yet, I will make up my own mind if the study was done with bias or if it was done with the facts in mind. That is the point you are missing. And yet again, you still don't see what we are saying, you brought up again that it's the study and hormones but let me ask you this, how did I get by? How did others in history get by? We were tired because as adolescents, we wanted to do more, yet we still had to figure out how to do what we wanted and get things done. Get the practice now about being tired because if you think being an adult is better you are mistaken, it gets worse. If you don't believe me you will. That's why so many are going against you on this, what you are asking for sounds like a kid asking for a cookie.
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Ok so let's look at this, I guess that all of us that grew up, in the old days had it to hard and that is why we are productive members of society. From the time I turned 16, when I soloed, my dad woke me up at 0430. We would hit the old choke and puke suck down a bacon and egg taco, and get to OUR airport. I would help pull out the trainers, 4 of them, Piper Tomahawks, PA-38-112. By 0600 I was in the air taking the backup bird to Harlingen airport, a friend of mine would pick me up there and I would go to class, all day and make good grades, well for the mot part. After school my buddy would drop me off at the airport, and I would fly either the back up bird or the broke bird to our home field. When I got there I still had to wash, or clean the inside of the birds, fuel them, and do the windshields, and for all you old school pilots we were still using Mirror Glaze. Plus put all the other planes that were out in the hangar. Then after we shut down the airport I got to go home and do my homework, then if I had time watch a bit of TV, and get my qbutt to bed and start over the next day. In my opinion today's youth are just a bunch of whining crying little brats, that will not be able to handle the world when they get out of school. Most live with mommy and daddy till they are 30 or 40 and can't get out of the basement, quit whining, suck it up and be flexible. Step away from the buffet table the XBox and the playstation. Your argument is as full of dung as a Christmas goose. All of us old farts have done pretty good at least we can afford to actually pay for AH and not have mommy and daddy do it for us. You have lost this argument, it is a worthless and irrational idea, and I hope that it never happens, get a job, a life, or into sports, if all else fails start "getting in touch with yourself and free sites" and go to sleep at a decent hour.
I can see me getting scuzzified over this
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I can see me getting scuzzified over this
I can't.
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Doing manual labor for 8-10 hours a day wouldn't help. Even if I didn't do homework and travelled between places instantaneously, I'd be home at 22:05 at the earliest. Slap on homework and I'm worse off than I was before- 23:30 or even 0:00. Furthermore, I did twleve hours of manual labor (4 hours on, eight hours off, plus hikes on shore) daily for two weeks on a ship, and was still sleepy on the midnight watch and in the morning. My diet is fine, thank-you. I eat a turkey sandwich with orange juice for breakfast, a turkey sandwich with orange juice and an apple for lunch, and pasta/rice with skinless chicken with the fat trimmed off for dinner. For dessert, a couple of scoops of ice-cream. Diet isn't the problem at all. In fact, I've been underweight for a long time- I just got back to normal.
This isn't an excuse, it's fact.
lol, you don't know manual labor, and probably never will. :lol unless you get a job on a commercial fishing boat or with a construction company. it's also extremely obvious you haven't done any research on the effects of carbohydrates on the body. you probably didn't know starch or carbohydrates are metabolized as sugar. processed turkey=enhanced with sugar, bread=carbohydrate, orange juice=enhanced sucrose, apple=sucrose, pasta=carbohydrate, rice=carbohydrate, ice cream=sugar.
you get way more sugar in your diet than you think...stop blaming it on hormones, there are more factors involved than your hormones. the data is there, just look for it. it won't be on wikipedia.
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I see what his problem is, no red meat, he is IRON deficient, Turkey, Turkey, Turkey, and then some chicken. It is not ok to kill a cow but fragg the turkey and chicken. Eat more beef and you will feel better, and have more energy. Now it all rolls into one the whole MEAT thread, this one, it all makes sense now he doesn't eat red meat, because it is cruel to kill a cow. It is ok to kill turkeys by the thousands, because they have a toejam life anyway, even though they are treated worse than any Heffer, that was bread for her beef, and her calf. Not to mention the fact he is to young to get all the vitamins and minerals from beer and whiskey, so we have found the problem. His mommy and daddy wont or cant buy beef, he is iron deficient and is a liberal, mommy and daddy wont pay for his AH and he is but hurt. he has the Gimme Gimme syndrome and a low self esteem problem. So penguin belly up to the buffet get some crap cooked red meat and you will feel all better, but make sure it is rare, with a little ground pepper. Then after a good golden coral 9.95 all you can eat beef fest go home watch some good sleep aid videos, on your iPad, iPhone, or Android, only the free ones though, they dont ask for your age, and dont require a credit card, be one with yourself and your hand and get to bed at a descent time.
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I see what his problem is, no red meat, he is IRON deficient, Turkey, Turkey, Turkey, and then some chicken. It is not ok to kill a cow but fragg the turkey and chicken. Eat more beef and you will feel better, and have more energy. Now it all rolls into one the whole MEAT thread, this one, it all makes sense now he doesn't eat red meat, because it is cruel to kill a cow. It is ok to kill turkeys by the thousands, because they have a toejam life anyway, even though they are treated worse than any Heffer, that was bread for her beef, and her calf. Not to mention the fact he is to young to get all the vitamins and minerals from beer and whiskey, so we have found the problem. His mommy and daddy wont or cant buy beef, he is iron deficient and is a liberal, mommy and daddy wont pay for his AH and he is but hurt. he has the Gimme Gimme syndrome and a low self esteem problem. So penguin belly up to the buffet get some crap cooked red meat and you will feel all better, but make sure it is rare, with a little ground pepper. Then after a good golden coral 9.95 all you can eat beef fest go home watch some good sleep aid videos, on your iPad, iPhone, or Android, only the free ones though, they dont ask for your age, and dont require a credit card, be one with yourself and your hand and get to bed at a descent time.
I was about to rail you for making such an assumption, but I didn't realize what Dichotomy's thread had evolved to. :lol
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In this country most schools start at 9am and finish at 4pm. 7:20 seems insanely early to start school. My son started primary school recently, he starts at 8:50 and finishes at 1:30 for this year, 2:30 after that. I think it was always that way here. Possibly something to do with farming, it allowed the farm kids to get up and milk the cows or plough the pasture or something. Plus there's the fact that it's dark right up to around 8:30 in the depths of winter.
It all very well us old stagers grumbling that kids today don't know how good they have it. 'In our day we got up early and walked ten miles without shoes in the pouring rain to get to school' blah blah.
Penguin has a point, like it or not teenagers need more sleep and they go to bed late. It's no use telling them to go to bed early and eat properly. There's barely a teenager alive who does that.
A later start makes sense, after all why induce an instant disadvantage to kids ability to study and learn. Ignoring human nature is foolish.
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For the record, I haven't really taken a stance on this issue, but to say that adolescents and adults have the same bodies is just not true. There are biological differences between the two that can't be "learned."
The human body is an amazing machine, adaptable to almost any conditions.
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A later start makes sense, after all why induce an instant disadvantage to kids ability to study and learn. Ignoring human nature is foolish.
considering that for hundreds of years children of working age around the world were required to get up at sunrise and do chores, then go to school, then return home to do more chores before homework and the evening meal, i don't see where there is a current disadvantage. in some countries children still have that same routine. saying children need more sleep now than they did in earlier history is human nature could be considered foolish, especially when you look at historical facts. lifestyles within modern society are the problem, not human nature or hormones. would young penguin's hormones be any less active if he was being raised on a farm in iowa or afghanistan or thailand? what he would be doing is getting up before the sunrise to do chores before going to school, only to return home and do more work before he could sit down and eat dinner then do his homework before bed.
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The reason we started at 7:20 was mainly due to busing. High school first, then middle school, then Elementary, and then Kindergarten which was all at one school. When you live in a place with a lot of kids, it's easier to start earlier then get another 150 buses. And besides, no one complained. It really wasn't a big deal. I just don't know why it is now all of a sudden.
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I see what his problem is, no red meat, he is IRON deficient, Turkey, Turkey, Turkey, and then some chicken. It is not ok to kill a cow but fragg the turkey and chicken. Eat more beef and you will feel better, and have more energy. Now it all rolls into one the whole MEAT thread, this one, it all makes sense now he doesn't eat red meat, because it is cruel to kill a cow. It is ok to kill turkeys by the thousands, because they have a toejam life anyway, even though they are treated worse than any Heffer, that was bread for her beef, and her calf. Not to mention the fact he is to young to get all the vitamins and minerals from beer and whiskey, so we have found the problem. His mommy and daddy wont or cant buy beef, he is iron deficient and is a liberal, mommy and daddy wont pay for his AH and he is but hurt. he has the Gimme Gimme syndrome and a low self esteem problem. So penguin belly up to the buffet get some crap cooked red meat and you will feel all better, but make sure it is rare, with a little ground pepper. Then after a good golden coral 9.95 all you can eat beef fest go home watch some good sleep aid videos, on your iPad, iPhone, or Android, only the free ones though, they dont ask for your age, and dont require a credit card, be one with yourself and your hand and get to bed at a descent time.
Liberal? Hardly, I'm of neither extreme. Let's not get into that.
I eat read meat, just on occaision. I usually eat chicken for dinner, but sometimes we have pork loin. It lasts about three days and supplies us with breakfast, lunch, and dinner meat. I'm not iron deficient, I just got bloodwork done a few weeks ago (kidney stone caused by eating canned food while on the ship coupled with a lowered water intake).
There's a difference between 'Gimme Gimme' and realizing that the system is flawed. 'Gimme Gimme' is asking for something you don't need/couldn't use (e.g., gimme an iPad, gimme a cookie, gimme a car). Teens could definitely use more sleep it helps them to not be so moody. Sleep is the period when your body regulates hormones, not to mention the fact that tired people are cranky.
There's a difference between not needing something and not getting it. Sure, you can survive with little sleep, but not getting enough restricts your potential. Just because you guys didn't get it doesn't mean that we shouldn't. In my travels throughout my school, only one kid managed to get eight hours of sleep. The rest have bags under their eyes that are so dark that I can spot them from about twenty feet away. Kids don't need more sleep than they did before, according to you, they often didn't get it. In fact, if you want to play crotchety old man, my mom and dad grew up in the 50s and 60s and their high school started at 8:30. It wasn't just true in the US, my mom is from Poland and it was true there, too.
I am complaining because the current system is wrong as shown by the data, and the experience of my peers and me. The fact that you suffered does not mean that we ought to.
I'm still working on getting my study onto the web. I forgot to bring it to school with me, but now it's in my backpack, all ready to go.
-Penguin
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I am complaining because the current system is wrong as shown by the data, and the experience of my peers and me. The fact that you suffered does not mean that we ought to.
Have you actually shared with us any data yet? I've seen quotes from people with expensive educations but if you shared any data I must've missed it.
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So basically in a nutshell, You don't want to wake up early and want to sleep. Join the rest of us! You keep blaming things on something else which is sad because it seems in today's society that is the trend. Dude, get your butt up and go to school! It's not hard, but then again if your lazy and want things catered to you then go ahead and present this. You won't get far. Have some drive son, really. If you put it in your mind you need to wake up at a certain time, you will with practice. I understand you are young and I'm only trying to help you with all my posts but it doesn't get better. The hormones you talk of doesn't matter. As an adult, I would love to sleep in and get more sleep but it isn't possible. Get used to it and look at this experience as training you for real life. If your smart, your grades won't be affected. I bet you have a straight A student in your class and I bet most of the kids in your class have a B average. And don't say no, they have a D average because they don't. You have a problem waking up, and that's true with some people. But it's you that has do deal with it and figure out a way to move on. If not, and you want things changed to fit you, then you are going to have a real hard time in the real world.
No he hasn't shared info. Don't know why but I think it hurts his case thus no info.
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I am complaining because the current system is wrong as shown by the data, and the experience of my peers and me. The fact that you suffered does not mean that we ought to.
I'm still working on getting my study onto the web. I forgot to bring it to school with me, but now it's in my backpack, all ready to go.
-Penguin
the only thing "wrong" with the system is your flawed thinking. there is no data that shows anything but known metabolic changes in adolescent physiology, that's it. you're own sources show it, yet you refuse to acknowledge anything but what you have convinced yourself to be irrefutable facts. your problem is lifestyle, you get too much sugar/carbohydrates in your diet, you spend most of your time in sedentary activities which keeps your body from using the excess energy your body stores, and your adolescent mind is in an overactive state due to pubescent physiological changes.
what your theory doesn't take into consideration is the effects on the students, their parents and the teachers. later school start times could also have the effect of students going to sleep later. parents who drop their children off at school before going to work would have to make other arrangements, which could cost money as well as added concern over their children's well being which in turn would affect their job peformance. teachers schedules being what they are would be affected worse than the students and parents, not to mention many teachers are parents of school age children. after school programs would be heavily affected. athletic events would have to start later, thus ending later, which would cause those involved in sports and those who enjoy watching them to end up having to stay up later at night in order to prepare for the next day.
your research is flawed, as is your commentary.
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Bottom line is, you want to sleep. You don't like waking up. Welcome to the world!
Grow up, stop being lazy, and take some responsibility. Forget the hormone argument it won't work. We have all been there and to give you some advice, what I did was deal with it. Go to bed, wake up early. If your tired too bad and move on.
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I'm just amazed he still hasn't cited the article he is talking about. He said he has a printed copy, there should be enough information there to at least have us find it. I asked for that information earlier in the thread, but he didn't reply.
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I'm just amazed he still hasn't cited the article is talking about. He said he has a printed copy, there should be enough information there to at least have us find it.
his hormones are blocking the internet... :rolleyes:
:lol :lol :lol
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If you dont want to feel sleepy, stop eating the Turkey, its well known that it contains fairly high levels of Tryptophan, an amino acid that produces drowsiness.
Just my buck 05.
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I'm just amazed he still hasn't cited the article he is talking about. He said he has a printed copy, there should be enough information there to at least have us find it. I asked for that information earlier in the thread, but he didn't reply.
I've asked four times and yet still no article.
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So basically in a nutshell, You don't want to wake up early and want to sleep. Join the rest of us! You keep blaming things on something else which is sad because it seems in today's society that is the trend. Dude, get your butt up and go to school! It's not hard, but then again if your lazy and want things catered to you then go ahead and present this. You won't get far. Have some drive son, really. If you put it in your mind you need to wake up at a certain time, you will with practice. I understand you are young and I'm only trying to help you with all my posts but it doesn't get better. The hormones you talk of doesn't matter. As an adult, I would love to sleep in and get more sleep but it isn't possible. Get used to it and look at this experience as training you for real life. If your smart, your grades won't be affected. I bet you have a straight A student in your class and I bet most of the kids in your class have a B average. And don't say no, they have a D average because they don't. You have a problem waking up, and that's true with some people. But it's you that has do deal with it and figure out a way to move on. If not, and you want things changed to fit you, then you are going to have a real hard time in the real world.
No he hasn't shared info. Don't know why but I think it hurts his case thus no info.
Your argument is based on the flawed assumption that I'm lazy. I walk home from school an hour each day. It's not a sport, but it's better than taking the bus. I'd walk in the morning, too, but then I'd have to get up at 5:00.
lol, you don't know manual labor, and probably never will. :lol unless you get a job on a commercial fishing boat or with a construction company. it's also extremely obvious you haven't done any research on the effects of carbohydrates on the body. you probably didn't know starch or carbohydrates are metabolized as sugar. processed turkey=enhanced with sugar, bread=carbohydrate, orange juice=enhanced sucrose, apple=sucrose, pasta=carbohydrate, rice=carbohydrate, ice cream=sugar.
you get way more sugar in your diet than you think...stop blaming it on hormones, there are more factors involved than your hormones. the data is there, just look for it. it won't be on wikipedia.
I'd disagree, we had to keep that ship moving 24 hours a day, sails only (except if it were over a force 6 or if we were in port). The boom and gaff on the mainsail and foresail each weighed one ton. There was also the half-ton boom of the staysail, and the two jibs. We had to lift those things by hand twice a day, if not more, and do the tacking ourselves (no mean feat considering that our jibs were four stories tall). The oldest among us was 19, the average age was 14, and the youngest was 12. The instructors weren't much help, either, even at twice or three times our strength it took the entire crew to haul the sails up. Don't even get me started on the dinghies and anchor. If we weren't in port, we were hiking through the forest and doing construction work for programs for troubled kids. We didn't fish, but it was gruelling considering how young we were.
Every energy source metabolises into sugar (glucose) in the end. You're right. There isn't anything else that our cells can handle. If you tried to metabolise entire large carboyhdrate molecules at once inside even the hardiest cells, the cells would explode. That's why energy goes down to adenosine triphosphate (ATP), it's a more manageable chunk of energy. If you remember your highschool biology class the name krebs cycle should also ring a bell. Furthermore, we need carbohydrates (or at least large amounts of protein) to survive. They serve as our main energy resource. You must be joking about me eating too many calories. I weigh 120 pounds- I'm a stick figure (not proud of it, some muscle would be useful).
I'm very well aware that carbohydrates have an effect on the body. The body will either store them or immediately metabolise them upon consumption. Metabolism consists of breaking the carbs down into glucose, then glycolisis, the Krebs Cycle, and finally the electron transport system. First in the cycle comes glycolisis (breaking glucose down into pyruvate, which gives 2 ATP) then the krebs cycle (which converts pyruvate into NAD+H+). Finally, the electron transport system uses the product of the krebs cycle to produce ATP, which cells use for energy. Carbohydrates are not caffeine, and 23 studies (all published in the Journal of the American Medical Association) on the subject are testament to the fact that sugars have no effect on activity levels. My sources are Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperactivity#Sugar_consumption) and The Straight Dope (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2747/does-giving-sweets-to-kids-produce-a-sugar-rush).
I've asked four times and yet still no article.
I'm working on it! I forgot to take it to school today.
-Penguin
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:rofl :lol sometimes i feel sorry for you penguin but, you bring it on yourself. you do a grand job of copy/paste but you have no real idea what you're reading. i never said a word about hyperactivity, nor calories, another fail.
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penguin-no offense, but your failing so bad you make me look good.
hormones have nothing to do with sleep, let alone the place of the sun... :rolleyes:
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:rofl :lol sometimes i feel sorry for you penguin but, you bring it on yourself. you do a grand job of copy/paste but you have no real idea what you're reading. i never said a word about hyperactivity, nor calories, another fail.
Nope, that's what I learned about metabolism last year in Biology. I got 92% correct on the SATII in Biology, even though the teacher didn't cover some of it (plant biology: xylems, phoelems, photosynthesis and all that good stuff). I can explain any of it to you.
it's also extremely obvious you haven't done any research on the effects of carbohydrates on the body. you probably didn't know starch or carbohydrates are metabolized as sugar. processed turkey=enhanced with sugar, bread=carbohydrate, orange juice=enhanced sucrose, apple=sucrose, pasta=carbohydrate, rice=carbohydrate, ice cream=sugar.
you get way more sugar in your diet than you think...stop blaming it on hormones, there are more factors involved than your hormones. the data is there, just look for it. it won't be on wikipedia.
What other sleep-reducing effects do you propose that carbohydrates and sugar have? Noise-making? Explosive diharrea? Implosive diharrea? You made a mistake, now man up and admit it.
penguin-no offense, but your failing so bad you make me look good.
hormones have nothing to do with sleep, let alone the place of the sun... :rolleyes:
Let's see how well that statement stands up to scholarly work:
A quick google search turned up around 10,000 articles concerning the circadian rythym and the effect of hormones on it. Here's an excerpt from one, and links to more.
Release of melatonin into the circulation by the pineal occurs almost exclusively during the nighttime hours. It has been proposed that this daily rhythm, like that of body temperature, reflects the output of a central circadian pacemaker in humans. In order to investigate the relationship of the circadian rhythms of body temperature and melatonin in humans and compare their resetting responses to light, we characterized the endogenous 24-h profiles of these rhythms in eight young male adults during constant routines before and after exposure to a stimulus consisting of bright light, room light, and darkness/sleep.
We found that the time of the fitted maximum of the endogenous melatonin rhythm consistently preceded the fitted temperature minimum by a mean ± se of 1.8 ± 0.2 h. Bright-light exposure induced substantial and equivalent phase shifts of the melatonin and temperature rhythms (mean ± se difference in the phase-shifting response, 0.03 ± 0.32 h), and the body temperature and melatonin rhythms thus maintained their usual phase relationship even after light-induced circadian phase inversion. These results are consistent with the hypothesis that the endogenous circadian components of both the plasma melatonin and body temperature rhythms are generated by a single central circadian pacemaker in humans. Furthermore, using the time of the fitted temperature minimum as a reference standard, we found that the fitted maximum of the endogenous 24-h melatonin profile was a more reliable phase marker than the onset of the nocturnal rise of melatonin (F = 4.48; P < 0.01).
This one concerns how the light (the sun) affects melatonin patterns:
http://endo.endojournals.org/content/98/2/482.short (http://endo.endojournals.org/content/98/2/482.short)
This one concerns melatonin's secretion and its reactions with the body:
http://edrv.endojournals.org/content/12/2/151.short (http://edrv.endojournals.org/content/12/2/151.short)
Please note that these articles are pay-per-view, so I wasn't able to read them completely. The abstracts and excerpts should testify to their legitimacy.
-Penguin
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Still though, it doesn't mean you can't adjust to times you need to wake up. The natural cycle you refer to is like it is with animals. Fall asleep, and wake up on your own naturally, no alarm clock and no set time you should be waking up. You make it sound like it's impossible. Trying not to go hard on ya, so don't take it that way.
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Nope, that's what I learned about metabolism last year in Biology. I got 92% correct on the SATII in Biology, even though the teacher didn't cover some of it (plant biology: xylems, phoelems, photosynthesis and all that good stuff). I can explain any of it to you.
What other sleep-reducing effects do you propose that carbohydrates and sugar have? Noise-making? Explosive diharrea? Implosive diharrea? You made a mistake, now man up and admit it.
little man you're so full of b.s. not even midway can hold a candle to you. now you're trying to tell us that your biology teacher is as dumb as you are. if you're as pretentious in school as you are here, i'm betting you were marvelling at your own genius rather than paying attention. i see i have to once again spell it out for you...
the only visible astute ability you have is a lack of cognitive reading skills. your wikipedia and straight dope references are 100% irrelevant. i never even eluded to hyperactivity or childhood sugar rush, that's just what you chose to see. as usual in your infinite attempts to appear more intelligent than you are, you discovered a single possible cause for your sleeping issues and failed to research all of the possible causes. my reference to the amount of sugar you consume in a day was based on one known contributing factor to delayed sleeping problems. sugar is what the body uses for energy and your sedentary lifestyle (i.e. less than average physical activity) combined with the late hour that you consume sugar could be causing your brain to maintain an energy cycle when it should be preparing for rest. that is not to say it is the only factor, unlike your hormone assertion. do more research and not on wikipedia. sugar and caffeine consumption within just a few hours of your anticipated sleep time can cause insomnia or just a delay in your ability to fall asleep. more than one of your references discussed chronotherapy, which happens to also be a treatment for delayed sleep phase syndrome. your references also included references to the circadian rhythm and krebs cycle, which you should have researched more thoroughly to find how they are affected by various disorders and that adolescent hormonal imbalance is just one possible contributing factor.
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if this were a boxing match...sorry penguin but you woulda been KO'd
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Wait guys, we really should encourage him to do this, if he does manage to push it through, not likely, but if he does think about it. They will have to extend the school day and extra hour, to make up for the time missed. So we won't have to dog fight with all the soccer moms while driving to work, and they will have less time in public. So we won't have to deal with the little school rats while we are running errands after work. So there will be less squeakers in public. Next we could get him to rally for the year long school then we would have to worry about them at all. If it does work maybe we could get a law passed that squeakers are not allowed in public at all. You know some cities do have a curfew.
Oh what a world that would be.
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little man you're so full of b.s. not even midway can hold a candle to you. now you're trying to tell us that your biology teacher is as dumb as you are. if you're as pretentious in school as you are here, i'm betting you were marvelling at your own genius rather than paying attention. i see i have to once again spell it out for you...
the only visible astute ability you have is a lack of cognitive reading skills. your wikipedia and straight dope references are 100% irrelevant. i never even eluded to hyperactivity or childhood sugar rush, that's just what you chose to see. as usual in your infinite attempts to appear more intelligent than you are, you discovered a single possible cause for your sleeping issues and failed to research all of the possible causes. my reference to the amount of sugar you consume in a day was based on one known contributing factor to delayed sleeping problems. sugar is what the body uses for energy and your sedentary lifestyle (i.e. less than average physical activity) combined with the late hour that you consume sugar could be causing your brain to maintain an energy cycle when it should be preparing for rest. that is not to say it is the only factor, unlike your hormone assertion. do more research and not on wikipedia. sugar and caffeine consumption within just a few hours of your anticipated sleep time can cause insomnia or just a delay in your ability to fall asleep. more than one of your references discussed chronotherapy, which happens to also be a treatment for delayed sleep phase syndrome. your references also included references to the circadian rhythm and krebs cycle, which you should have researched more thoroughly to find how they are affected by various disorders and that adolescent hormonal imbalance is just one possible contributing factor.
You asserted that I'm ignorant, and I replied. Marvelling at my own genius would be posting those scores off the cuff.
You also made two other assumptions- that I consume sugar and caffeine before bed. The only caffeine that I ever consume any more is black tea if I'm feeling under the weather and want something warm. I never eat sugar before bed because dinner is usually at 5-6, with dessert shortly thereafter.
Would you seriously entertain the thought of funding chronotherapy for over 800 kids? The cost would be staggering, and look at the side-effects. In three cases, it permanatly damaged the circadian clock to such an extent that the individual could never go back to a 24-hour cycle. The safety is also not fully known- it's not something that one should do without their doctor's supervision.
The delayed sleep phase syndrome that you refer to does not explain the staggering number of kids who are wide awake at 22:00. The disorder only affects 3 in 2,000 indviduals. If your assertion were correct, the inverse would be true in my school.
Wait guys, we really should encourage him to do this, if he does manage to push it through, not likely, but if he does think about it. They will have to extend the school day and extra hour, to make up for the time missed. So we won't have to dog fight with all the soccer moms while driving to work, and they will have less time in public. So we won't have to deal with the little school rats while we are running errands after work. So there will be less squeakers in public. Next we could get him to rally for the year long school then we would have to worry about them at all. If it does work maybe we could get a law passed that squeakers are not allowed in public at all. You know some cities do have a curfew.
Oh what a world that would be.
It's funny that you mention that, later end times mean more parental supervision and less time for kids to get into trouble.
-Penguin
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Still didn't get that source I see.
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Anyone here an IT guy? I need some help. Today, I tried scanning my document at school with one of those GIGANTIC photocopiers, and it was supposed to e-mail the images to me. However, they haven't gotten here and it's been several hours. I had set it to single JPEG TIFF. What do those acronyms mean? I'm just so confused, I want to get this picture up but I don't know how! :(
EDIT: I have a DSLR, so I should be able to roughly replicate the results of a scan with some careful calibration... There! Ok, so here are the images. I did my best to keep my shadow out, but if you want a do-over I can make that happen.
Here are the pictures, check them out:
(http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/Photo_Penguin/IMG_7571.jpg)
(http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/Photo_Penguin/IMG_7570.jpg)
(http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/Photo_Penguin/IMG_7569.jpg)
(http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/Photo_Penguin/IMG_7568.jpg)
(http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/Photo_Penguin/IMG_7567.jpg)
(http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/Photo_Penguin/IMG_7566.jpg)
(http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/Photo_Penguin/IMG_7565.jpg)
(http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/Photo_Penguin/IMG_7564.jpg)
(http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/Photo_Penguin/IMG_7563.jpg)
(http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/Photo_Penguin/IMG_7562.jpg)
(http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/Photo_Penguin/IMG_7561.jpg)
(http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/Photo_Penguin/IMG_7560.jpg)
(http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/Photo_Penguin/IMG_7559.jpg)
(http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/Photo_Penguin/IMG_7558.jpg)
(http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/Photo_Penguin/IMG_7557.jpg)
(http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/Photo_Penguin/IMG_7556.jpg)
These are in no particular order, but you can see that I'm not pulling this out from down under.
-Penguin
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Anyone here an IT guy? I need some help. Today, I tried scanning my document at school with one of those GIGANTIC photocopiers, and it was supposed to e-mail the images to me. However, they haven't gotten here and it's been several hours. I had set it to single JPEG TIFF. What do those acronyms mean? I'm just so confused, I want to get this picture up but I don't know how! :(
-Penguin
Means you screwed up, JPEG is just the file type the picture was saved. You probably entered the email address wrong, or the photocopier wasnt connected to the internet.
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I never asked for a photocopy of the article, just the author, title, journal, year.
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Um, that is no different then your essay. You said you read Carskadon's study and agree with her findings. That isn't the study you said you had otherwise she wouldn't be in a reference section. That's the study I want to see, not another paper. If it has merit, I will give you props and it will help to see where your coming from.
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You asserted that I'm ignorant, and I replied. Marvelling at my own genius would be posting those scores off the cuff.
You also made two other assumptions- that I consume sugar and caffeine before bed. The only caffeine that I ever consume any more is black tea if I'm feeling under the weather and want something warm. I never eat sugar before bed because dinner is usually at 5-6, with dessert shortly thereafter.
Would you seriously entertain the thought of funding chronotherapy for over 800 kids? The cost would be staggering, and look at the side-effects. In three cases, it permanatly damaged the circadian clock to such an extent that the individual could never go back to a 24-hour cycle. The safety is also not fully known- it's not something that one should do without their doctor's supervision.
The delayed sleep phase syndrome that you refer to does not explain the staggering number of kids who are wide awake at 22:00. The disorder only affects 3 in 2,000 indviduals. If your assertion were correct, the inverse would be true in my school.
spelling it out again...getting tiresome. you do eat sugar before bed, approximately 2-4 hours prior to according to what you claim is the time you attempt to go to sleep. if you had properly researched the digestive cycle and metabolism you would have known that. you also failed to consider that the dessert you consume after dinner is undoubtedly full of sugar and, unless you're drinking plain water or an artificially sweetened caffeine free soft drink, there is sugar in whatever you drink between dinner and bed time. i have bad news for you, even pre-pubescent children with no physiological problems or hormonal imbalances can be wide awake at 2200, especially if they eat or drink anything with sugar or carbohydrates within 2 hours of the time they go to bed.
you really should do more studying outside of your supposed hormonal imbalance to make your case more substantial...here is the elementary version of one thing you should have researched.
http://www.wereyouwondering.com/how-long-does-it-take-to-digest-food/ (http://www.wereyouwondering.com/how-long-does-it-take-to-digest-food/)
note that the metabolism of glucose begins at the time the food enters the small intestine, approximately ~2 hours after the food is consumed. what you should research next is the effects of glucose on the body and the brain activity that occurs when glucose is metabolised. on the other hand, considering what you have managed to improperly research and extrapolate thus far, it is possible that your hormone imbalance could prevent you from absorbing the correct information.
you have yet to show any actual relevant data and yet you are attempting to claim that 800 students in your school population all have the same physiological problem as you do. a call to the cdc may be in order because that would insinuate an epidemic. where is your statistical data on the number of children in your school with the same "affliction" you claim to have? for that matter what data do you have that shows a "staggering number of kids" being awake at 2200 that share the same "affliction" within your city, county, state, or the nation?
it's extremely obvious you didn't do any further research on delayed sleep and associated disorders.
maybe if you spent less time looking for reasons for your inability to sleep, you could actually get some sleep. class dismissed.
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You guys have been aruging with a kid for 8 pages now :bhead
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lol, it was 5 until you posted uptown... :lol
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So basically in a nutshell, You don't want to wake up early and want to sleep. Join the rest of us! You keep blaming things on something else which is sad because it seems in today's society that is the trend. Dude, get your butt up and go to school! It's not hard, but then again if your lazy and want things catered to you then go ahead and present this. You won't get far.
Finally ... the truth.
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spelling it out again...getting tiresome. you do eat sugar before bed, approximately 2-4 hours prior to according to what you claim is the time you attempt to go to sleep. if you had properly researched the digestive cycle and metabolism you would have known that. you also failed to consider that the dessert you consume after dinner is undoubtedly full of sugar and, unless you're drinking plain water or an artificially sweetened caffeine free soft drink, there is sugar in whatever you drink between dinner and bed time. i have bad news for you, even pre-pubescent children with no physiological problems or hormonal imbalances can be wide awake at 2200, especially if they eat or drink anything with sugar or carbohydrates within 2 hours of the time they go to bed.
you really should do more studying outside of your supposed hormonal imbalance to make your case more substantial...here is the elementary version of one thing you should have researched.
http://www.wereyouwondering.com/how-long-does-it-take-to-digest-food/ (http://www.wereyouwondering.com/how-long-does-it-take-to-digest-food/)
note that the metabolism of glucose begins at the time the food enters the small intestine, approximately ~2 hours after the food is consumed. what you should research next is the effects of glucose on the body and the brain activity that occurs when glucose is metabolised. on the other hand, considering what you have managed to improperly research and extrapolate thus far, it is possible that your hormone imbalance could prevent you from absorbing the correct information.
you have yet to show any actual relevant data and yet you are attempting to claim that 800 students in your school population all have the same physiological problem as you do. a call to the cdc may be in order because that would insinuate an epidemic. where is your statistical data on the number of children in your school with the same "affliction" you claim to have? for that matter what data do you have that shows a "staggering number of kids" being awake at 2200 that share the same "affliction" within your city, county, state, or the nation?
it's extremely obvious you didn't do any further research on delayed sleep and associated disorders.
maybe if you spent less time looking for reasons for your inability to sleep, you could actually get some sleep. class dismissed.
The digestion of food takes 5-6 hours, and what I can gather from http://www.fi.edu/learn/brain/carbs.html does not point to anything like the long-lasting stimulant effects you describe. Simple sugars are quickly digested and released; for instance, soft drinks last for 1-2 hours then another boost is necessary. As for your argument that glucose takes 1-2 hours to metabolise, you're dead wrong, allow me to quote the site directly:
Simple carbohydrates are found in most processed or refined foods and some natural foods. These carbohydrates have short-chained sugar molecules and, because they break apart quickly, enter the bloodstream quickly. Sugary foods--including corn syrup, fruit juices, and honey--contain glucose that is absorbed directly through the stomach wall and rapidly released into the bloodstream, almost as quickly as if delivered by syringe.
Eating processed sugar is almost as fast as pumping directly into your bloodstream, not this long-term digestive process. When you said 1-2 hours, I believe you referred to complex carbohydrates. However, these take so long to digest that their effect on overall activity level is negligible. However, complex carbohydrates can assist learning by providing an energy source for the brain.
To conclude, I don't see how sometimes having dessert and/or a glass of fruit juice is impacting my sleep schedule. If I eat dinner at 18:00, (which is as late as it gets, the normal time is 16:00-17:30) then I should be wiped out at 20:00 by the ensuing sugar crash. The complex carbohydrates I eat do not keep me up at night, and thus there is little evidence for food being the cause of the problem (unless you guzzle down a sugary beverage immediately before retiring to bed). Caffeine is similar, however its effects can last out to three hours, but again, it would require that one consumed it long after dinner to have it keep one up at night. Seeing as I don't gulp down sugary or caffeinated drinks before bed, it certainly does not apply to me.
Finally ... the truth.
It's like wanting a bed with a matress instead of just a wooden frame. Sure, you can sleep on the frame if you are tired enough, but a matress helps people get a better night's sleep.
-Penguin
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You left out a t in mattress Peng.
I haven't read the whole thread but, when someone figures out how to cure my insomnia without the use of narcotics, let me know.
For the record I don't eat generally after 3 and don't drink cokes, coffee, or sugared drinks. Unless you count beer.
BTW Peng. Gyrene? He's pretty smart. If you'd listen to him instead of arguing with him even if you disagree with his points you'll probably learn A LOT.
Gyrene? You're still a knucklehead. :neener:
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You left out a t in mattress Peng.
I haven't read the whole thread but, when someone figures out how to cure my insomnia without the use of narcotics, let me know.
oh i can easily fix that dicho, just let me grab my baseball bat and...:lol
or if you want to do it yourself... :bolt:
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The digestion of food takes 5-6 hours, and what I can gather from http://www.fi.edu/learn/brain/carbs.html does not point to anything like the long-lasting stimulant effects you describe. Simple sugars are quickly digested and released; for instance, soft drinks last for 1-2 hours then another boost is necessary. As for your argument that glucose takes 1-2 hours to metabolise, you're dead wrong, allow me to quote the site directly:
Eating processed sugar is almost as fast as pumping directly into your bloodstream, not this long-term digestive process. When you said 1-2 hours, I believe you referred to complex carbohydrates. However, these take so long to digest that their effect on overall activity level is negligible. However, complex carbohydrates can assist learning by providing an energy source for the brain.
To conclude, I don't see how sometimes having dessert and/or a glass of fruit juice is impacting my sleep schedule. If I eat dinner at 18:00, (which is as late as it gets, the normal time is 16:00-17:30) then I should be wiped out at 20:00 by the ensuing sugar crash. The complex carbohydrates I eat do not keep me up at night, and thus there is little evidence for food being the cause of the problem (unless you guzzle down a sugary beverage immediately before retiring to bed). Caffeine is similar, however its effects can last out to three hours, but again, it would require that one consumed it long after dinner to have it keep one up at night. Seeing as I don't gulp down sugary or caffeinated drinks before bed, it certainly does not apply to me.
It's like wanting a bed with a matress instead of just a wooden frame. Sure, you can sleep on the frame if you are tired enough, but a matress helps people get a better night's sleep.
-Penguin
i'm sorry but, you're still way out in left field and lazy on top of it all. not that i completely disagree that your school should change the start time by at least 1 hour but, thus far you have not presented any real hard evidence to support your stance. you again make a claim that science can refute. should have done more research on the digestive cycle, brain function and the metabolism of glucose.
just so you're very clear where your argument fails to hold substance...
you haven't proven you suffer from anything other than lifestyle that would contribute to your sleep dysfunction. self diagnosis is not proof.
you have not shown that you were examined and diagnosed by a physician nor undergone any possible treatments for any issues that could contribute to your sleep cycle dysfunction.
you have not presented anything more than conjecture that any percentage students within your school share the same or similar physiological issues and accompanying sleep dysfunctions.
nor have you shown that any percentage, let alone a significant portion of students within your school would benefit from a later start time.
nearly all of the resources you presented show that a change in school start time alone will not significantly alter the effects that physiological changes and lifestyle choices produces in teens.
you have not been able to refute the evidence that lifestyle and eating habits are as contributory to problems with sleeping cycles as hormonal changes in adolescents.
i know you're young and taking the time to follow something to its conclusion can be difficult, but you have made some pretty boastful claims around here which makes some of us expect more from you. i can tell you haven't done any real research, the resources on your initial claim are mostly from the same research and lack any actual statistical data. your subsequent responses lack real conviction on your stance because you fail to research the evidence that refutes your claims to its fullest extent. when you look at something all you find is what you expect to see, nothing more. you need to learn to look deeper, examine every possible aspect, anticipate rebuttal and look for evidence that supports the rebuttal, then look for ways to support your stance and refute it with complete evidence.
to fully back your stance, that paper should include a larger variety of research, specifics on hormonal imbalances in adolescents, statstical data specific to sleep dysfunction in adolescents, as well as the costs associated with medical treatments in lieu of a time change.
Gyrene? You're still a knucklehead. :neener:
:rofl :lol :rofl :lol
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i'm sorry but, you're still way out in left field and lazy on top of it all. not that i completely disagree that your school should change the start time by at least 1 hour but, thus far you have not presented any real hard evidence to support your stance. you again make a claim that science can refute. should have done more research on the digestive cycle, brain function and the metabolism of glucose.
just so you're very clear where your argument fails to hold substance...
you haven't proven you suffer from anything other than lifestyle that would contribute to your sleep dysfunction. self diagnosis is not proof.
you have not shown that you were examined and diagnosed by a physician nor undergone any possible treatments for any issues that could contribute to your sleep cycle dysfunction.
you have not presented anything more than conjecture that any percentage students within your school share the same or similar physiological issues and accompanying sleep dysfunctions.
nor have you shown that any percentage, let alone a significant portion of students within your school would benefit from a later start time.
nearly all of the resources you presented show that a change in school start time alone will not significantly alter the effects that physiological changes and lifestyle choices produces in teens.
you have not been able to refute the evidence that lifestyle and eating habits are as contributory to problems with sleeping cycles as hormonal changes in adolescents.
i know you're young and taking the time to follow something to its conclusion can be difficult, but you have made some pretty boastful claims around here which makes some of us expect more from you. i can tell you haven't done any real research, the resources on your initial claim are mostly from the same research and lack any actual statistical data. your subsequent responses lack real conviction on your stance because you fail to research the evidence that refutes your claims to its fullest extent. when you look at something all you find is what you expect to see, nothing more. you need to learn to look deeper, examine every possible aspect, anticipate rebuttal and look for evidence that supports the rebuttal, then look for ways to support your stance and refute it with complete evidence.
to fully back your stance, that paper should include a larger variety of research, specifics on hormonal imbalances in adolescents, statstical data specific to sleep dysfunction in adolescents, as well as the costs associated with medical treatments in lieu of a time change.
:rofl :lol :rofl :lol
I never stated that I had a sleep dysfunction.
Look at the images that I posted, and you should see a bar graph showing the average numbers of hours of sleep. You should also see a paragraph below the graph dealing with the number of car crashes falling as a result.
So you want more on lifestyle and food consumption not being the main contributors, eh? That'll take a few days because right now, I need to go to sleep (ah irony).
-Penguin
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Okay, so a single page of all those pictures actually had the title.
Google.
TaDa: http://www.sleepeducation.com/resources/lessons/teensdrowsydriving/schoolstarttimes.pdf
Why did that take you a week?
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Okay, so a single page of all those pictures actually had the title.
Google.
TaDa: http://www.sleepeducation.com/resources/lessons/teensdrowsydriving/schoolstarttimes.pdf
Why did that take you a week?
Like I said, I only had a paper copy.
-Penguin
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Okay, now I've read the study and I have some thoughts.
-You have to remember this was a survey study, not a true experiment. With that comes a good deal of variability and allows many confounds.
-The study only looked at a one year change. What would happen 2-3 years down the road, would sleep times return to normal?
-Though the results are statistically significant, the article sights average gained sleep was 12-30 minutes. Helpful, but not a huge gain.
-The accident rates are interesting, but there are many many other factors that impact this.
You seem to be falling into the trap of trusting what you read from someone with a Ph.D. Maybe it's come from years of studying under those with a Ph.D, but they aren't always right. An article like this, or any single article, is part of the science behind this issue, and not too much weight should be afforded to a single study.
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Great, I have plenty more!
I have to wake up so early tomorrow, ugh... I still have to study for the ACT, though.
-Penguin