Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: shift8 on August 03, 2016, 08:19:14 PM
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Im sure almost no one will agree with me, but Id like to see no icons in AH3 for the MA. Aces high has one of the best dot systems of any sim out there, and it would be awesome to be able to use it properly. For friend or foe we could have icons at 1000m or less.
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Im sure almost no one will agree with me, but Id like to see no icons in AH3 for the MA. Aces high has one of the best dot systems of any sim out there, and it would be awesome to be able to use it properly. For friend or foe we could have icons at 1000m or less.
-1. Not all computers are created equal. This also undermines players with poor eyesight.
What I would like to see is for the icon to get progressively smaller as distance decreases. The icon could also fade out more when the player is directly facing a target, then fade in more when the target is not directly in front. Sometimes that big red icon can be distracting when in firing range, especially so when I'm firing at a dark plane against dark ground as the backdrop.
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-1. Not all computers are created equal. This also undermines players with poor eyesight.
What I would like to see is for the icon to get progressively smaller as distance decreases. The icon could also fade out more when the player is directly facing a target, then fade in more when the target is not directly in front. Sometimes that big red icon can be distracting when in firing range, especially so when I'm firing at a dark plane against dark ground as the backdrop.
1) so upgrade your comp already
2) Really, poor eyesight? who cares. Whats next? a box of hearing aides when you order the game?
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The "no icons" falsehood was propogated by an elitist faction of IL2 that proclaimed that anybody flying with icons is cheating, a lesser pilot, holds their manhood cheap compared to those that use "no icons" and so forth.
It's a blatant lie and basically just ego-stroking.
We have had discussions on these very forums before detailing the science of optics, distances and details visible at those distances. We have referenced real life air traffic personnel at airports, commercial, private, and military pilots, we have referenced anecdotal WW2 reports of being able to ID planes at distances using the fuselage codes and all of these details.
What we can see in-game is a joke compared to reality. It's nice, but it's not REALISTIC. The icons make up for a massive loss of detail that would equate to all players in this game playing like legally BLIND pilots in real life. They never would have been able to get pilots licenses at any point with eyesight like this game portrays. There are many reasons for that: including pixel dots, sizes, the need to have a wider FOV for rendering screens and depictions. The icons make up for that.
Removing the icons doesn't help gameplay at all, despite what the AvA crowd tried to push for so long. It hurts gameplay. In every respect from WW1 onwards, BFM have been a part of dogfighting. Before-Fight-Maneuvers. The posturing and positioning you undertake to get an advantage on your opponent BEFORE you're in lethal kill range. It's a massive part of air combat, and with no icons you literally cannot even determine a very rudimentary shape, range, or even orientation and angle of an enemy plane until it's already inside kill range.
No icons leads to unaware picks, simulating legally blind pilots and/or the baby seal clubbing effect. That's the only true reason to ever demand/request it be forced on everyone. The demander/requester wants easier kills for their own benefit.
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1) so upgrade your comp already
2) Really, poor eyesight? who cares. Whats next? a box of hearing aides when you order the game?
you can already get rid of icons. try it for a month see how it works out.
semp
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1) so upgrade your comp already
2) Really, poor eyesight? who cares. Whats next? a box of hearing aides when you order the game?
1) It's not about better hardware. Most of the time in a no icon environment, lower end hardware has an advantage because the dots are bigger. The point is, fiddling with your hardware to get the most capability to see aircraft should not be the single most important aspect of the game.
2) So it's far better that you should need to pass a physical to play?
The best part is, as semp said you can turn it off. Wish granted!
Wiley.
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New players struggle enough as is with icons, turn it off if you want a challenge.
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You can turn your icons off if you want the additional challenge. Turning them off for all players is just not good for the game. Try FSO or Scenarios or the AVA to experience shortened or icons turned off. You'll have fun!
:salute
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You can turn your icons off if you want the additional challenge. Turning them off for all players is just not good for the game. Try FSO or Scenarios or the AVA to experience shortened or icons turned off. You'll have fun!
As others have said, the debate has been extended and heated. In the end, I think everyone (at the time) generally agreed that no-icons isn't for everyone, so it's better to enjoy it in AvA or FSO, as Waystin says. IMHO you really should put a good four hours into flying in a no-icons environment. Many real-world tactics that make no sense in the MA suddenly become important.
- oldman
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-1 OP.
/thread
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-1
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you can already get rid of icons. try it for a month see how it works out.
semp
+1
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2) Really, poor eyesight? who cares. Whats next? a box of hearing aides when you order the game?
As someone who has suffered from poor eyesight his entire life I hope you never have to deal with what I have to deal with. The dots in AH can sometimes be hard for me to see and even with icons stuff still "pops up" on me.
-1
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Without Icons there are no way to separate the good guys from the bad guys, it only works if you have a fixed plane set were you can tell friend from foe by identifying the plane type. But in MA that would be impossible.
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Three countries and you can fly any fighter you want at all times. In a three country open world, how do you know you are looking at an enemy plane if there is no icon to tell you? No icon works for two country only games where the opposing sides fly country specific aircraft with country markings which allows visual identification of friend or foe. It also makes it easy to guess for old guys with poor eyesight that going in the direction of the other country will have a high probability of bad guys when they see a dot.
I've been wondering if our forum is going to get trolled as AH3 is closer to going live, to help us be our natural worst selves to try and drive away potential new players. We have had years of this wish, but not one so obvious in trying to get a rise out of posters.
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I've been wondering if our forum is going to get trolled as AH3 is closer to going live, to help us be our natural worst selves to try and drive away potential new players.
If so, then you are rising to the bait. The wish has been common for many years. The thread has been fine so far, there's no need to attribute bad motives to anyone.
- oldman
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Three countries and you can fly any fighter you want at all times. In a three country open world, how do you know you are looking at an enemy plane if there is no icon to tell you? No icon works for two country only games where the opposing sides fly country specific aircraft with country markings which allows visual identification of friend or foe. It also makes it easy to guess for old guys with poor eyesight that going in the direction of the other country will have a high probability of bad guys when they see a dot.
I've been wondering if our forum is going to get trolled as AH3 is closer to going live, to help us be our natural worst selves to try and drive away potential new players. We have had years of this wish, but not one so obvious in trying to get a rise out of posters.
This...
No icons are workable if you have a way of knowing who the bad guy is because of what they are flying. If you have no icon, there's no way to tell if they are a bad guy or not.
No icons with 3 sides and mixed plane sets, not possible.
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No icons with 3 sides and mixed plane sets, not possible.
The work-around has been to have short-range friendly (only) icons. Shouldn't matter what country your enemy is from, so long as he's an enemy.
- oldman
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I agree with Scca. Bad idea.
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1) so upgrade your comp already
2) Really, poor eyesight? who cares. Whats next? a box of hearing aides when you order the game?
I had considered offering you a spot on our FSO squad so you can see how short icon's worked would be fun, but this response makes me think you wouldn't be a good fit.
That said, if you decide to park the attitude, maybe we can work something out. :salute
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The only alternative plane icon system that works good is ww2online's.
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I had considered offering you a spot on our FSO squad so you can see how short icon's worked would be fun, but this response makes me think you wouldn't be a good fit.
That said, if you decide to park the attitude, maybe we can work something out. :salute
I fly in FSO all the time. I am already a member of a squadron.
People get the attitude they deserve. Video games are not made for blind people. If we had to consider every stupid fringe group every time a game got made, none would be made at all. There are already plenty of flight sims that do not use icons, but they dont have some of the other things AH has. It would be nice to remove them to make the combat more realistic. If a persons comp cant handle that, or if they cant see it due to eyesight: who cares.
We already see this attitude with AH3. With people who are utterly flabergasted they they might have to upgrade. I dont care. I dont care what your money situation is, or what you want to spend on comp parts. If you cant upgrade, then you need to accept that you are part of the past and wont be able to play anymore. It is utterly crazy for every possible improvement to the game to be sidelined or disregarded because some 1% group cant handle it for whatever reason.
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I fly in FSO all the time. I am already a member of a squadron.
People get the attitude they deserve. Video games are not made for blind people. If we had to consider every stupid fringe group every time a game got made, none would be made at all. There are already plenty of flight sims that do not use icons, but they dont have some of the other things AH has. It would be nice to remove them to make the combat more realistic. If a persons comp cant handle that, or if they cant see it due to eyesight: who cares.
We already see this attitude with AH3. With people who are utterly flabergasted they they might have to upgrade. I dont care. I dont care what your money situation is, or what you want to spend on comp parts. If you cant upgrade, then you need to accept that you are part of the past and wont be able to play anymore. It is utterly crazy for every possible improvement to the game to be sidelined or disregarded because some 1% group cant handle it for whatever reason.
So you believe a person's capability to set up their display should be the difference between "visible enemy" and "invisible enemy". That's... quite an opinion you've got there. Glad you don't run the place. :aok
Wiley.
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Me too. Just turn your icons off and get over it dude.
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NO icons in AH main arenas is a terrible idea.
First, there is the practical aspects of identifying friend from foe when they are flying identical planes including the paint schemes.
Second, the realism. This is one of the cases where an unrealistic game mechanic makes some aspect of the game more realistic. As already mentioned by someone above, due to screen resolution and size limitations, we are the equivalent of pilots with terrible eye sight that should never be allowed to hold a stick or even drive a car. The icons are a poor attempt to compensate for that, yet it is the best solution anyone has come up with. Over the years HT had tweaked it so the icons convey the minimal required information and give as little help otherwise. This is why the tags appear below the planes and not above. This is why tags give specific model information only at short ranges. This is why the range indicator resolution changes with distance (from 1000 yards, to 200 yards, to single yards). This is why we get a + or - indicator when the relative speeds are high. All these are meant to help players with poor eye-sights - that means EVERYONE relative to real life. Removing the icons makes it a fun confused game for one session, but otherwise it makes combat LESS realistic.
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I fly in FSO all the time. I am already a member of a squadron.
People get the attitude they deserve. Video games are not made for blind people. If we had to consider every stupid fringe group every time a game got made, none would be made at all. There are already plenty of flight sims that do not use icons, but they dont have some of the other things AH has. It would be nice to remove them to make the combat more realistic. If a persons comp cant handle that, or if they cant see it due to eyesight: who cares.
We already see this attitude with AH3. With people who are utterly flabergasted they they might have to upgrade. I dont care. I dont care what your money situation is, or what you want to spend on comp parts. If you cant upgrade, then you need to accept that you are part of the past and wont be able to play anymore. It is utterly crazy for every possible improvement to the game to be sidelined or disregarded because some 1% group cant handle it for whatever reason.
A fine example of a millennial you make. :salute
P.S. Do you mind sharing your ingame name? I just like to know who I am dealing with...
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No icons really only works well when it is Axis V
Allies. It would not work in a MA setting because your team could be flying in any type of plane. I really do love fighting with no icons. But it has to be Axis V allies or it wouldn't work.
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I fly in FSO all the time. I am already a member of a squadron.
People get the attitude they deserve. Video games are not made for blind people. If we had to consider every stupid fringe group every time a game got made, none would be made at all. There are already plenty of flight sims that do not use icons, but they dont have some of the other things AH has. It would be nice to remove them to make the combat more realistic. If a persons comp cant handle that, or if they cant see it due to eyesight: who cares.
We already see this attitude with AH3. With people who are utterly flabergasted they they might have to upgrade. I dont care. I dont care what your money situation is, or what you want to spend on comp parts. If you cant upgrade, then you need to accept that you are part of the past and wont be able to play anymore. It is utterly crazy for every possible improvement to the game to be sidelined or disregarded because some 1% group cant handle it for whatever reason.
I play with a 42 inch screen 3 feet away, textures are set to 1024, and the graphics are all turned up. I don't play in the AvA arena for two reasons. One, if Im going to get HOed I might as well stay in the MAs because there are more people in there to fight, and two I cant stand the no icon setup they use in there. Should the icons disappear in the MAs you will see a mass exodus of players, not good for business.
Even with a top notch computer that many players including me have, the view is just not as good as real life. Depth perception as well as 3D detail is simulated and so no where as good as real life.
Now your attitude toward other players, that can be as much a turn off as the lack of icons. :D
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I fly in FSO all the time. I am already a member of a squadron.
People get the attitude they deserve. Video games are not made for blind people. If we had to consider every stupid fringe group every time a game got made, none would be made at all. There are already plenty of flight sims that do not use icons, but they dont have some of the other things AH has. It would be nice to remove them to make the combat more realistic. If a persons comp cant handle that, or if they cant see it due to eyesight: who cares.
We already see this attitude with AH3. With people who are utterly flabergasted they they might have to upgrade. I dont care. I dont care what your money situation is, or what you want to spend on comp parts. If you cant upgrade, then you need to accept that you are part of the past and wont be able to play anymore. It is utterly crazy for every possible improvement to the game to be sidelined or disregarded because some 1% group cant handle it for whatever reason.
I would be more than happy to come to your house and every time you get a pilot wound, I hit you with a baseball bat. how is that for playing with full realism.
semp
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The player who shall remain unknown has a point about AH3 and dots "if" Hitech doesn't shrink the dot size back down with his final graphics tweeking for go-live. They are twice the size and darkness of AH2 dots past 6000yds. So I'm curious because he plays AH2 and knows AH3 probably from the beta, and Hitech has not changed the country layout in the beta MA.
The other shoe has not been dropped for this wish.
If he is not tossing rocks through a window to get the free entertainment of watching Barney Fife lock himself out of his police cruiser. Then no one has asked him the obvious question.
How do you propose to have no icons in a three country arena?
I'm curious what he has thought up to solve this.
1. - Eliminate all three countries and the moment you up anyone can kill you.
2. - Eliminate one country and separate the rides be allies vs axis.
3. - Keep all three countries with one EU\USA\Ru, GER\Italy, Japan.
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How do you propose to have no icons in a three country arena?
The work-around has been to have short-range friendly (only) icons. Shouldn't matter what country your enemy is from, so long as he's an enemy.
- oldman
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2) Really, poor eyesight? who cares. Whats next? a box of hearing aides when you order the game?
Don't be a Dick
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Without Icons there are no way to separate the good guys from the bad guys, it only works if you have a fixed plane set were you can tell friend from foe by identifying the plane type. But in MA that would be impossible.
This.
I reguarly play other sims where thereare no icons. It isn't that huge of an issue (except in Battle of Stalingrad due to some engune limitations), but in those games you won't end up fighting the plane you are flying unless you are on a dueling server. Just wont work for the MA environment unless AH goes to a AvA style MA, and I am fairly certain half the playerbase would lose their collective brownstuff over something like that.
AAaaaand that should end this thread.
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What's with the idea that the Allied vs Axis arena is 'no icons' for both sides? IT ISN'T.
The standard in there is friendly icons at 3k with enemy at 0k. It would be unplayable chasing dots all over the map.
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Keep icons, but remove distance indicators from enemies. :aok
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What's with the idea that the Allied vs Axis arena is 'no icons' for both sides? IT ISN'T.
The standard in there is friendly icons at 3k with enemy at 0k. It would be unplayable chasing dots all over the map.
My bad, I thought I remembered it was no icons.
Don't agree with the idea that no icons in an Axis vs. Allies type scenario is "unplayable". Most of the major competitors have no icons and spotting in those is at least as hard as it would be in AH, and I can argue in BoS spotting is much harder.
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I fly in FSO all the time. I am already a member of a squadron.
People get the attitude they deserve. Video games are not made for blind people. If we had to consider every stupid fringe group every time a game got made, none would be made at all. There are already plenty of flight sims that do not use icons, but they dont have some of the other things AH has. It would be nice to remove them to make the combat more realistic. If a persons comp cant handle that, or if they cant see it due to eyesight: who cares.
We already see this attitude with AH3. With people who are utterly flabergasted they they might have to upgrade. I dont care. I dont care what your money situation is, or what you want to spend on comp parts. If you cant upgrade, then you need to accept that you are part of the past and wont be able to play anymore. It is utterly crazy for every possible improvement to the game to be sidelined or disregarded because some 1% group cant handle it for whatever reason.
Pretty much why I don't play anymore and won't let my kids play. A small part of the playerbase is so toxic they drain any enjoyment out of the boards and the game.
It's not the content of the post, it's sociopathic attitude.
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Hmm, there is an option to turn off icons. ALT+I x3.
BONG! Wish Granted!
If you want a no-icon thing for everyone, go to the AvA. Last I was in there, they ran no-icon. Otherwise, no.
With upgrading a machine; I can understand life situations (med bills, car repairs, etc.), but if you have the ability to upgrade and won't for some obscure reason, then it's your fault. Example: You can't come here and cry about not being able to play a game that's been updated beyond your machine's ability when you opted to spend that money on sports tickets/season passes instead.
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For the record, the AVA in AH2 is NOT a NO ICONS ARENA. it is a Friendly icons only arena. it is more realistic.
this goes to plane identification as was stated earlier.
all different icons have been tried in AH2 AVA. no friendly or enemy icons. 3k each friendly and enemy. 6k friendly, 1.5 enemy. all of them. our standard is 3k friendly and No Enemy icons. that doesn't mean its permanent, its just our standard.
now tonight we've had AVA wars-- battle for Europe in AH3 AVA. even with no ENEMY icons, you can see the planes without any problems. plain as day. just no icon.
see link for details--http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,380549.0.html
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,380549.0.html)
if you want to see it in action, come to the AH3 AVA next Saturday night and you'll get to see for yourself.
one guy said it was more challenging, but you could distinctly see the enemy planes. so you can go with whatever your preference is, but
with or without enemy icons, theres no problems seeing any plane in AH3.
for the record, we've thoroughly tested the icons in AH3 before trying it. many people prefer to play with icons. we, in the AVA, try to make it
more realistic. AH3 is the answer to that wish!
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A fine example of a millennial you make.
Really? You had to go there?
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Really? You had to go there?
What? He likely took it as a compliment.
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Keep icons, but remove distance indicators from enemies. :aok
I like it
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For the record, the AVA in AH2 is NOT a NO ICONS ARENA. it is a Friendly icons only arena. it is more realistic.
It is not more realistic. It is less realistic. This has been demonstrated repeatedly.
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It is not more realistic. It is less realistic. This has been demonstrated repeatedly.
Indeed, in the AvA it would be more realistic to remove icons completely.
When I look out of my window into the sky there are no aircraft with icons. I have to look at their shape and decide what they are.
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When I look out of my window into the sky there are no aircraft with icons. I have to look at their shape and decide what they are.
And in real life, you can do that. On a standard computer screen, you don't. At least not at 'realistic real life' distances. Human eyesight is far better then the resolution offered by a screen.
As had been said before, no icons would only realistically simulate a visually impaired pilot. But if you really want to simulate that... ;)
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And in real life, you can do that. On a standard computer screen, you don't. At least not at 'realistic real life' distances. Human eyesight is far better then the resolution offered by a screen.
As had been said before, no icons would only realistically simulate a visually impaired pilot. But if you really want to simulate that... ;)
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I wear glasses, so the simulation is very realistic :D
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I wear glasses, so the simulation is very realistic :D
I wear glasses too. and the only reason I never play in the ava is because I cant tell the difference between airplane and shadow. and most fights i found out happen at very low altitude to take advantage of this. even in the ma an airplane low over the trees is very hard for me to see.
semp
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And in real life, you can do that. On a standard computer screen, you don't. At least not at 'realistic real life' distances. Human eyesight is far better then the resolution offered by a screen.
As had been said before, no icons would only realistically simulate a visually impaired pilot. But if you really want to simulate that... ;)
True, but that is why every sim game I know includes a view zoom function. When paired with no icons this does a passible job of simulating real situations where you need to visually identify an enemy.
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True, but that is why every sim game I know includes a view zoom function. When paired with no icons this does a passible job of simulating real situations where you need to visually identify an enemy.
Right, lol.
If you consider your field of view to be "passable" when looking through a toilet paper roll.
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With out icons how would you know an F6F is friend or foe? :headscratch:
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My eye doctor worked with me to create a set of glasses for playing AH. The prescription is adjusted to the average distance my head is from the monitor instead of being computer readers. Most won't tell you they can do that for 32" or 64" away from your monitor. You have to know to ask and explain in detail what you need them for. They are crap for walking to the bathroom.
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Right, lol.
If you consider your field of view to be "passable" when looking through a toilet paper roll.
Not sure what you mean by that, and thay combination works quite well for the vast majority of other sims, BoS being a possible exception. I'd add all of these sims have a far larger active user base than AH. Doesn't make them right or AH users wrong, but it does open up questions why this difference of opinion exists. I'm not really sure to be honest.
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That is what zoom 75%-100% looks like in the game.
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Keep icons, but remove distance indicators from enemies. :aok
Already tried in Brand X. Was an epic failure.
-1
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I do wonder what effect having FSO range icons (3.0 I think it is) in the MA would have on gameplay.
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I do wonder what effect having FSO range icons (3.0 I think it is) in the MA would have on gameplay.
New players would be getting GGed all over the place me thinks...
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New players would be getting GGed all over the place me thinks...
This...
I actually don't like the short icons in FSO... But it makes it fun when all the sudden a red icon or dozen is diving in on you :x :aok
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This...
I actually don't like the short icons in FSO... But it makes it fun when all the sudden a red icon or dozen is diving in on you :x :aok
Yes, it is called a semi- realistic simulation of an actual combat situation. With icons, much less chance of that happening.
New players would be getting GGed all over the place me thinks...
GGed?
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Yes, it is called a semi- realistic simulation of an actual combat situation. With icons, much less chance of that happening.
GGed?
GG means Good Game or slang for getting whooped. "GG noob"
Flying with icons off is great in the right setting, but it takes much more fighter combat understanding to be good at it.
You have to react a lot more quickly when the icons are off. You also have the ability to be very sneaky. If icons were off in the MA, and it was Axis V allies, you can bet I'd be eating noobs for dinner who didn't see me. Also, judging people's range from Icon distance is very built in. Without icon distance you have to judge your timing a lot more closely. Many players already have no clue about timing even when icons are on. Flying without Icons is much more challenging and takes a very good understanding of flight combat and an even better understanding of Situation Awarness to be good at.
I like the icon distance in the FSO because it limits ganging. Instead of a guy 5K away who sees your fight to come gang. They have to be closer. You also can sometimes get a better jump on unsuspecting opponents, so it makes it more intense. With a 3K range it keeps the fights more compact because people typically need to stay in range to view their opponent.
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Yes, it is called a semi- realistic simulation of an actual combat situation. With icons, much less chance of that happening.
GGed?
So you like FSO too...oh wait.... :rolleyes:
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GGed?
Or GeeG....Good Game instead of Good Fight like we have in Aces High.
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Or GeeG....Good Game instead of Good Fight like we have in Aces High.
:headscratch:
So in your view having No Icons would make AH more gamey?
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GG means Good Game or slang for getting whooped. "GG noob"
Flying with icons off is great in the right setting, but it takes much more fighter combat understanding to be good at it.
You have to react a lot more quickly when the icons are off. You also have the ability to be very sneaky. If icons were off in the MA, and it was Axis V allies, you can bet I'd be eating noobs for dinner who didn't see me. Also, judging people's range from Icon distance is very built in. Without icon distance you have to judge your timing a lot more closely. Many players already have no clue about timing even when icons are on. Flying without Icons is much more challenging and takes a very good understanding of flight combat and an even better understanding of Situation Awarness to be good at.
I like the icon distance in the FSO because it limits ganging. Instead of a guy 5K away who sees your fight to come gang. They have to be closer. You also can sometimes get a better jump on unsuspecting opponents, so it makes it more intense. With a 3K range it keeps the fights more compact because people typically need to stay in range to view their opponent.
Apologies, but this community has the oddest and most contradictory views of air combat and simulation I have ever come across.
So you like FSO too...oh wait.... :rolleyes:
Yes I liked FSO when I played AH II.
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Not sure what you mean by that, and thay combination works quite well for the vast majority of other sims, BoS being a possible exception. I'd add all of these sims have a far larger active user base than AH. Doesn't make them right or AH users wrong, but it does open up questions why this difference of opinion exists. I'm not really sure to be honest.
It is clunky as hell.
Yes, it is called a semi- realistic simulation of an actual combat situation. With icons, much less chance of that happening.
GGed?
If by "realistic" you mean "horribly unrealistic", sure.
I've played enough no, or limited icons, to know it sucks. I work 70 hours a week. Chasing dots for 10 minutes that are running from a dot only to find that we're both friendlies is not fun.
Favoring ultra-low altitude combat is not realistic.
The number of players who are downed when they aren't in combat maneuvers in a no, or limited icon, environment is not realistic.
This request is about selective realism and nothing more.
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It is clunky as hell.
If by "realistic" you mean "horribly unrealistic", sure.
I've played enough no, or limited icons, to know it sucks. I work 70 hours a week. Chasing dots for 10 minutes that are running from a dot only to find that we're both friendlies is not fun.
Favoring ultra-low altitude combat is not realistic.
I am really not following you. Do you mean you have played enough with no icons in AH, other games or both?
What do you mean by favoring ultra-low altitude combat? Are you saying AH favors this, other games do or both?
The number of players who are downed when they aren't in combat maneuvers in a no, or limited icon, environment is not realistic.
A player downed when they aren't in combat maneuvers is called a "bounce". It is the result of the pilot not seeing an enemy about to attack, also known as failing to maintain SA. Usually ends with the player dying. This is not realistic?
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Apologies, but this community has the oddest and most contradictory views of air combat and simulation I have ever come across.
Yes I liked FSO when I played AH II.
That's the second time you've knocked my post, and I don't even know you.
Do you want to go to the DA, MA, or FSO, or AvA so can I can prove that you literally have no idea what you are talking about? Best fighter rank challenge, best to 5 in the DA, most kills in FSO, Ill literally destroy you in any part of aircombat in AH.
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That's the second time you've knocked my post, and I don't even know you.
Do you want to go to the DA, MA, or FSO, or AvA so I can I can prove that you literally have no idea what you are talking about? You sound like you know everything, but I'll literally destroy you in any part of flying in AH.
:rofl :rofl :rofl I love it... :joystick: :airplane:
He don't play...
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That's the second time you've knocked my post, and I don't even know you.
Do you want to go to the DA, MA, or FSO, or AvA so can I can prove that you literally have no idea what you are talking about? Best fighter rank challenge, best to 5 in the DA, most kills in FSO, Ill literally destroy you in any part of aircombat in AH.
You forget to add the part about how your dad can beat up his dad too. :devil
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That's the second time you've knocked my post, and I don't even know you.
Do you want to go to the DA, MA, or FSO, or AvA so can I can prove that you literally have no idea what you are talking about? Best fighter rank challenge, best to 5 in the DA, most kills in FSO, Ill literally destroy you in any part of aircombat in AH.
Probably, but I did not knock your post or challenge you to the DA or whatever. I challenged this community's view of semi-realistic simulation conditions, and I am trying to understand what prompts this view.
Are you and others saying the AH engine cannot render enough details at a distance to visually identify a contact?
He don't play...
Do we really need to go over this again?
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A player downed when they aren't in combat maneuvers is called a "bounce". It is the result of the pilot not seeing an enemy about to attack, also known as failing to maintain SA. Usually ends with the player dying. This is not realistic?
This is 'realistic', and it happens in AH. Many of my deaths, and quite a lot of my kills, were the result of someone no keeping his SA up.
Are you and others saying the AH engine cannot render enough details at a distance to visually identify a contact?
No.
It's basically about the screens, not the AH engine.
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And again: no icons would make it impossible so separate friend from foe so it's no point of debating it unless we add some other way of identification. Since we want all planes to be available to all players we would need something like a fixed skin that is clearly visible for each country, like red, blue and yellow, one color for each team.
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I would be more than happy to come to your house and every time you get a pilot wound, I hit you with a baseball bat. how is that for playing with full realism.
semp
Semp this comment has officially made my day thank you sir :rofl
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And again: no icons would make it impossible so separate friend from foe so it's no point of debating it unless we add some other way of identification. Since we want all planes to be available to all players we would need something like a fixed skin that is clearly visible for each country, like red, blue and yellow, one color for each team.
I agree with you concerning the MA. We were discussing no icons in the contect of the AvA or similar events, not the MA.
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No.
It's basically about the screens, not the AH engine.
I can visually identify a Spitfire or Hurricane out to 4000m in CLoD, no icons, zoomed in. No zoom I can do so out to about 2500m. These can vary a bit depending on the aspect of the target of course. My monitors are 4 year old Viewsonic 27" LCDs that are nowhere near state of the art.
My point is this appears to be a limitation of the AH engine. If so I can understand the need for icons and the community's views on them. Thank you for clearing that up for me. Next time I am in the beta I will turn icons off to see if similar limitations apply.
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I was referencing the difference of Icons off and on in the GAME. You have to really know how utilize BFM, SA, and ACM to be effective at No icon game play, much moreso than with Icons and distance indicators. There are different tactics you can employ with no icons. I try not to talk about "real life" fighter combat because it is entirely different for thousands of reason. I always relate my experience to the game. If I wanted to talk about real life flying, I'd be in a different forum.
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:headscratch:
So in your view having No Icons would make AH more gamey?
No, I was just using gamer slang....I would like no icons but I know the skill gap would increase even more then it is right now which wouldn't be good for keeping new players around after their 2 week free trial.
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No, I was just using gamer slang....I would like no icons but I know the skill gap would increase even more then it is right now which wouldn't be good for keeping new players around after their 2 week free trial.
I was referencing the difference of Icons off and on in the GAME. You have to really know how utilize BFM, SA, and ACM to be effective at No icon game play, much moreso than with Icons and distance indicators. There are different tactics you can employ with no icons. I try not to talk about "real life" fighter combat because it is entirely different for thousands of reason. I always relate my experience to the game. If I wanted to talk about real life flying, I'd be in a different forum.
OK this makes more sense to me. Thank you both for clearing that up. I agree with your points of view, especially for new players.
Edit - To be fair, I understand visibility is a hard thing to simulate on a PC and some games do it better than others. In my opinion CLoD strikes a good balance between realism and gameplay. DCS less so but still pretty good. BoS is God awful, and that is a known problem I hope the developers fix one day but I won't hold my breath waiting. AH beta hasn't been a problem thus far but I really haven't done any actually testing.
I personally think that AvA and FSO might benefit from no icons, but the reduced icon range probably works just as well. 3K icon range equates to what I can do in most no icons games so it is pretty much a wash.
:salute
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I'm not saying every AvA or special event, but I would probably be more inclined to participate if one or two here and there had friendly icons set to 3k, and enemy icons completely off. It's a nice change of pace from the usual AH.
As for icons in the MA, I wish there were no distance indicators on enemies, and maybe friendlies. It'll make players focus more on the aircraft, rather than the little + or - symbol next to their distance.
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I'm not saying every AvA or special event, but I would probably be more inclined to participate if one or two here and there had friendly icons set to 3k, and enemy icons completely off. It's a nice change of pace from the usual AH.
This seems like a resonable request and very much like War Thunder EC/Sim mode.
As for icons in the MA, I wish there were no distance indicators on enemies, and maybe friendlies. It'll make players focus more on the aircraft, rather than the little + or - symbol next to their distance.
This might be a bit much for the new guys on the block. Then again, I flew AH for several years without paying attention to anything other than the plane type icon.
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I'm not saying every AvA or special event, but I would probably be more inclined to participate if one or two here and there had friendly icons set to 3k, and enemy icons completely off. It's a nice change of pace from the usual AH.
As for icons in the MA, I wish there were no distance indicators on enemies, and maybe friendlies. It'll make players focus more on the aircraft, rather than the little + or - symbol next to their distance.
AvA used to be 3k and none, I think they are back to 3k and 3k to get people to play in there. That voting with their feet thing customers do when they don't like something. I suspect Hitech gives the customers the +- and range numbers so most of his customers will stay near each other let alone get into fights.
Who knows going forward, the new graphics engine seems to visually present the dots outside of 6k better than AH2. Over two years of testing I've watched the dot clarity improve as Hitech tweeked the graphics. Gotta see how dots show up for the average paying customers when AH3 goes live. That was the problem in the AH2 AvA that made players vote with their feet.
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I'm not saying every AvA or special event, but I would probably be more inclined to participate if one or two here and there had friendly icons set to 3k, and enemy icons completely off. It's a nice change of pace from the usual AH.
As for icons in the MA, I wish there were no distance indicators on enemies, and maybe friendlies. It'll make players focus more on the aircraft, rather than the little + or - symbol next to their distance.
you do understand that there's lots of us that cant see airplanes without an icon right? I participate in fso's and I have missed bombers, p38's and just about every single aircraft when they are only 4k.
as for the airplanes it's hard to judge 800 or 600 and that makes a big difference. at least for me.
semp
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you do understand that there's lots of us that cant see airplanes without an icon right? I participate in fso's and I have missed bombers, p38's and just about every single aircraft when they are only 4k.
as for the airplanes it's hard to judge 800 or 600 and that makes a big difference. at least for me.
semp
Notice how you said that distance indicators help you decide timing.
That is exaclty what I was talking about in my first post.
Learning to judge the timing of planes with E and plane type is what separates the good from the FPHs.
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Notice how you said that distance indicators help you decide timing.
That is exaclty what I was talking about in my first post.
Learning to judge the timing of planes with E and plane type is what separates the good from the FPHs.
I am not here to be good or an fph. I am here to pretend to be a fighter pilot and drink a couple with some good friends. take distance away and I might as well leave. and so will lots of others.
semp
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You're going to quit the game just because you have to learn to judge distance by yourself? lol please, be serious man.
That's why I included the maybe friendlies, I don't mind distance on friendlies... that way you can still tell how close they are to an enemy and be able to give them a check in time.
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Hmmm, what if there was an arena option that would keep the +/- for the distance indicator's. You won't see numbers, but you'd at least still have that +/- telling you if your closing or not. :headscratch:
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You're going to quit the game just because you have to learn to judge distance by yourself? lol please, be serious man.
That's why I included the maybe friendlies, I don't mind distance on friendlies... that way you can still tell how close they are to an enemy and be able to give them a check in time.
I couldnt even see the airplanes on the floor in the ava with no icons. much less judge distance. why do you think I never played there even when pigs had squad night there.
semp
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Get a better monitor? Use zoom? I don't know what to tell you, the game doesn't revolve around your individual needs.
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Install the beta and go offline. Fly just out of range of the drones in the circle. The dots are now about 5x darker than they were in AH2 which makes them stand out larger and easier to see. I will bet the new graphics engine is easier for things like dots to be tweeked for everyone to see.
Is this pissing match about AH2 or AH3, and how many of you are systematically testing the beta to determine how much visually in this regard has Hitech changed or updated things?
Wishing Hitech would change the game to your specification for a gamey utopia is fine. Wishing for Hitech to cut his economic throat because you don't like one of his large customer demographics is not going to happen as long as their credit cards clear each month.
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Get a better monitor? Use zoom? I don't know what to tell you, the game doesn't revolve around your individual needs.
you should think about that yourself.
semp
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(http://media1.giphy.com/media/6OWIl75ibpuFO/giphy.gif)
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All you're effectively saying when you say "I want no icons" is, "I want to be invisible to a segment of the population in the arena."
They're an equalizer. They make it so configuring your hardware is not the single most important aspect of playing the game. I would consider that a good thing.
Wiley.
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I have a 27in monitor 1440. a computer that is better than the average ah player. and I still cant see the planes without icons.
when I go target shooting with my handgun, I cant see the gun sights. I have a choice between seeing the sights or seeing the target. I have 20/20 vision on long distance but anything within 3 feet of me I need glasses. and even then playing ah is hard.
semp
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Hey AvA guys, think you can set up the AvA to be the same as the MA, only with no icons (and no perk rides for obvious reasons unless you can somehow restrict them like the MA), and run that for a week? I know it will be a pain, but it should give folks that want no-icon a solid idea of how it would really end up working. Just a thought. :) Oh, and of course make sure kill shooter is on. :D
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(http://media1.giphy.com/media/6OWIl75ibpuFO/giphy.gif)
You're wasting your time replying to semp.. Regardless of the subject matter. As long as AcesHigh stays stuck in 2004 he is happy.
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People need to start understanding that a wish for AH2 gameplay is the same as a wish for AH3....as of now gameplay seems very similar in Beta and a lot of problems from 2 will carry over to 3...I feel like this is should be a known fact....and yes it will have more.(bet the first day playing 3 I'll see an M3 up before anything else to "defend" a field)
I agree with getting rid of the +- indicators....don't see how they would effect the visually impaired because the only time they really help, the plane is as large as the icon itself. If your looking at an icon when a plane is less than 2K away (about the time the plane is pretty large on the screen) than that is probably why you are having problems progressing in Aces High.
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Unless semp has a macular degeneration problem, prescription glasses will make it possible to see the monitor 16-62 inches from his face. As you get into your 40's though, all of the physical functions of your eyeball begin to slow down while the lens becomes less pliable along with loosing clarity. When you get an eye checkup they do a test for cataract which is a determination of how your lens clarity has deteriorated with time. All of this is why some people starting in their late 30's and early 40's with 20\20 start using readers. Glasses or not, this effects your ability to play video games to varying degrees as you age. Also, at any age, spending long hours staring at a fixed focal distance ages your eyes faster while effecting over time your ability to rapidly change focus.
So ask yourself, is this hostility to icons in the MA or, to the MA being full of 40-70 year olds?
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Wasn't there a Cohen movie about this stuff?
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/no%20icons_zps0trmysc1.png)
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Lusche,
A 15in monitor at 36 inches......... Is it monochrome to......
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-1
But
+1 for shortening Icon Range.
Icons at 3k would be a good thing I think. Would also make radar more valuable for guided intercepts.
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The "no icons" falsehood was propogated by an elitist faction of IL2 that proclaimed that anybody flying with icons is cheating, a lesser pilot, holds their manhood cheap compared to those that use "no icons" and so forth.
It's a blatant lie and basically just ego-stroking.
We have had discussions on these very forums before detailing the science of optics, distances and details visible at those distances. We have referenced real life air traffic personnel at airports, commercial, private, and military pilots, we have referenced anecdotal WW2 reports of being able to ID planes at distances using the fuselage codes and all of these details.
What we can see in-game is a joke compared to reality. It's nice, but it's not REALISTIC. The icons make up for a massive loss of detail that would equate to all players in this game playing like legally BLIND pilots in real life. They never would have been able to get pilots licenses at any point with eyesight like this game portrays. There are many reasons for that: including pixel dots, sizes, the need to have a wider FOV for rendering screens and depictions. The icons make up for that.
Removing the icons doesn't help gameplay at all, despite what the AvA crowd tried to push for so long. It hurts gameplay. In every respect from WW1 onwards, BFM have been a part of dogfighting. Before-Fight-Maneuvers. The posturing and positioning you undertake to get an advantage on your opponent BEFORE you're in lethal kill range. It's a massive part of air combat, and with no icons you literally cannot even determine a very rudimentary shape, range, or even orientation and angle of an enemy plane until it's already inside kill range.
No icons leads to unaware picks, simulating legally blind pilots and/or the baby seal clubbing effect. That's the only true reason to ever demand/request it be forced on everyone. The demander/requester wants easier kills for their own benefit.
I think this perfectly explains it. :aok
Edit: I would like them to disappear when an airplane flies through a cloud.
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I think this perfectly explains it. :aok
Edit: I would like them to disappear when an airplane flies through a cloud.
they do if the cloud is thick enough
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It certainly doesn't belong in the "all planes from all countries all the time" arena.
but...
No icons leads to unaware picks, simulating legally blind pilots and/or the baby seal clubbing effect. That's the only true reason to ever demand/request it be forced on everyone. The demander/requester wants easier kills for their own benefit.
This is just BS!!
Some people just like not seeing glowing red icons. They think it's an immersion killer and without them, find it easier to slip into their WW2 fantasy.
You just can't seem to accept that some people just prefer it without ascribing bad motives to them.
AvA used to be 3k and none, I think they are back to 3k and 3k to get people to play in there. That voting with their feet thing customers do when they don't like something.
Not really
There have been times where groups have come in and wanted a specific setting and other times when certain staffers turned them on for their set up. Also one time an update made it impossible to turn icons off.
That was the problem in the AH2 AvA that made players vote with their feet.
No it wasn't. There is no icon setting that ever made any sustained difference in consistant AvA attendance.
There's just not enough players to constantly populate 24/7 arenas other than the main one.
All combinations have been tried numerous times.
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This is just BS!!
Some people just like not seeing glowing red icons. They think it's an immersion killer and without them, find it easier to slip into their WW2 fantasy.
You just can't seem to accept that some people just prefer it without ascribing bad motives to them.
If that were the case, you can do that right now today. The fact is people want other people to not be able to see them coming.
Wiley.
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If that were the case, you can do that right now today. The fact is people want other people to not be able to see them coming.
Which is far more realistic than the neon sign icon. And it leads to more realistic tactics as well.
No icons isn't for everyone, or even for most people, I think everyone agrees on that, but ascribing bad motives to no-icon proponents is low.
- oldman
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Which is far more realistic than the neon sign icon. And it leads to more realistic tactics as well.
No icons isn't for everyone, or even for most people, I think everyone agrees on that, but ascribing bad motives to no-icon proponents is low.
- oldman
We have to have some type of icon in the MA. You cant get rid of them without causing problems.
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If that were the case, you can do that right now today. The fact is people want other people to not be able to see them coming.
Wiley.
There were some who did just that when enemy icons were on in the AvA, but if you are so convinced that those who like a no icon game only do so to have an unfair advantage, they would only want invisible icons for their plane and not a level playing field for all wouldn't they?
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I guess it depends on what form of "non-realistic" you prefer.
Oldman is a pilot, we have other pilots who like no icons, I have 50 something hours not including all the passenger hours I have in small planes.
At the real life distances that icons show up in the MA, I can tell it's a white plane, maybe a high wing. I can't ID make and model.
I have lost sight of planes against the ground and those weren't even camo or drab colors. I picked them up again because of motion.
Same thing in the game, albiet at closer distances.
It's just a different setting that some people enjoy.
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I remember WW2OL only had circles and they would turn red or green once you got close enough to them, "red" being enemy. It worked better I think and the pilot had to make his own decision if he was close enough to shoot. It was pretty easy actually. I would prefer this to the current icon system. Range distances is just over kill and clogs up the view.
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If that were the case, you can do that right now today. The fact is people want other people to not be able to see them coming.
Wiley.
The only thing that is clear from this thread is what YOUR motives are. Its pretty clear that you and bustr think this is some kind of conspiracy to hurt older players. Which is completely asinine.
I made this request because I think it will make the game more realistic, which is my ONLY motive. Removing the icons over a certain range, say 1-2km for IFF and ID reasons, is completely reasonable.
IT will alter how the game plays, and IMO, in a good way. YES, you should be less likely to see a bandit coming in to bounce you. This is one of the many reasons the bulk of ww2 air combat was a bounce. The current condition in the MA makes it comically easy for people to maintain SA.
What you dont seem to get is that removing the 6k icons would ALSO improve the lot of people who have the sole interest in this game in "furballing." If you like to dogfight, you will ALSO be much harder to spot by stalking energy fighters.
The real problem of the Icons at 6km is the overabundance of SA. Everyone knows who is where and how far just be merely glancing out of their canopy. This HURTS fighting in general, by turning the combat into a doom conveyor belt. The fight is often times dictated more by which fighters showed up last to the fight rather than by tactics etc. While this would indeed be a factor IRL, the icons make this TOO much of a factor.
So if you are a TnB'r, it will mean you have a lesser chance to have your fight interrupted (unrealistically) by the 9000 other planes in the game that spotting you without any effort at all. If you are a BnZ'r, the same is true.
Note, I am not saying we dont need icons. the LOD even within 2km is not as good as IRL. You need somehting to compensate for contrast and resolution of a computer monitor vs the far superior capabilities of the human eye.
BUT the AH dot system (excluding the massive AH3 dot thing) is actually pretty good. Spotting planes dots within 6k is easy. With some effort, you can spot them out to 17k if you are looking hard enough. You can even spot planes on the deck from 20k if you know what you are doing.
LASTLY, cut the crap regarding my or anyone else's motives to wanting this feature. One of the reasons I play this game is BECAUSE of the older average age of this community. NOT in spite of it. Generally I find the AH community more inclined to teamwork and mature behavior. This is excluding the adolescent rubbish that happens on the 200 between fully grown men.
The only person who has an ulterior motive here is you. Since it has been pretty directly stated that you and others want the icons to aid health conditions or your lack of spotting procedure, or because you cant be bothered to learn how to scan routinely, realism be damned.
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Since it has been pretty directly stated that you and others want the icons to aid health conditions or your lack of spotting procedure, or because you cant be bothered to learn how to scan routinely, realism be damned.
Your presentation up to this was reasonable, once here you run into your prejudice about what outcomes should really rule this game versus Hitech keeping subscriptions. In this sandbox world Hitech has never forced anyone to be as dedicated as yourself for the fun they pay him to provide. This is why there is an AvA and Special Events arenas. If your more stringent realism were the norm that would keep subscriptions and grow them from Hitech's experience, then the MA would have been your utopia 15 years ago until today.
Being such a "realism" junky, why aren't you hip deep in DCS and even bothering with us apostates? You debate as being intelligent enough to know Hitech has chosen to present his game this way to allow the most fun for the largest number. If he was going to bow to your self appointed superior position, he would have dedicated AHIII's fidelity to your refined sensibilities. I guess by your scale he has chosen to make it just as pedestrian as AH2, and is the chief apostate and bottle washer for the average customer position of not being bothered to learn your standards versus paying for mindless fun.
Some time back players wanted DCS competitive realism with engine management. Hitech's take on it reflects many of the devices he has chosen to make the game less realistic with from your point of view.
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I reject your premiss that it would be more appealing to pilots.
I have come to learn that real pilots tend to branch into 2 categories.
1. System management pilots.
This group of pilots love to have the latest avionics, like to fly cross country. But have never been upside down in an airplane.
2. Stick and rudder pilots.
These pilots love to fly doing nothing but looking out the window. They are interested in perfection of flying not of managing the aircraft. These are the type of pilots who love aerobatics, and also would be interested in learning ACM.
Obviously these are generalizations and there is some cross over. But I am always surprised at the number of pilots who have never been up side down and fall into the first category.
The point of this is that the same thing tends to happen in a flight sim, Aces High is aimed at the stick and rudder guys. It is a very detailed simulation in what it tries to accomplish. That being, giving you the same feel as the real plane. But navigation and engine start procedures are not something that it aims to simulate.These type of items would detract instead of add to normal game play.
HiTech
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Here is an interesting exchange about realism and icons from past.
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Hiya HiTech, welcome to the thread. Care to enlighten us if we'll be seeing any more optional "realism features" like I suggested above? Or perhaps a modified icon system?
I still think it's a shame that the blind bounce has gone the way of the dodo bird in AH. With the widespread use of voice communications in AH, is it really neccessary to retain the current neon icons? Between the icons, the check six feature, the voice comms and the direct six view... chances of bouncing a foe unseen is next to impossible in this day and age.
****
No chance banana. And the myth you create that icons prevent sudden bounces is incorect. People still foreget to look back.
HiTech
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A more recent answer about icons in general.
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You are making many false statements and many wrong assumptions.
1. No icons does not mean more realism.
It would make some thing more, a lot of other things less realistic.
2. No icons does not make the game more difficult.
The difficulty in the game lies in killing some one while they are trying to kill you. It is the other person that creates the difficulty. Turning icons off doesn't change that fact, it merely shifts some of the difficulty to a different skill. So then the question becomes is it more fun using that skill then the way the game is currently set up?
Unintended consequences. What is the net effect, I.E. if it changes the way everyone flies, how will that net effect everyone enjoyment. (similar to the principle if you make living more important it cause everyone to spend a lot more time running and chasing vs fighting)
3. We already have an arena where players try to set it up with things such as you are suggesting.
4. You believe time played has an effect on the validity of your wish.
I mostly see the validity of wishes for "More Realism" is inversely proportional to the length of time played.
HiTech
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Search would have answered many of your arguments......
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My concern and which HiTech has been addressing on this particular thread is what might be done, if anything, about visual distance. IF you could see as far as the normal individual in a cockpit of a plane could see in real life it would open up more possibilities as I mentioned above
Hence why we have zoom, and Icons, it is to give you the functionality you have in real life. But there is absolutly no way to duplicate real eyeballs in real space on a monitor with out adding information in a different manner than you have in real lift. Hence why we have the items like icons,ranges, and zoom to duplicate the fuctionality you have in real life.
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Hitech has a lot invested in his reasons for icons....
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I look at XXXXXX's icons, and can not guess what they meen. There for lots of other people would have the very same problem.
You might want to discuss what you wish out of icon system, not how to implement it first.
Item to discuss first,
Do you wish range info. If so how detailed.
Is there enof closure rate info giveng with the range info, if not do we wish to give closure rate info.
Next think about how it will effect game play. Will it change fighting style, if it does is the way it effects it a good thing?
Also think about how well a new person to AH will understand the info. Simple thing like what range should I shoot at become a problem.
If no range information is given is it just harder or is it more realisitic.
Whats the next thing that has to be written that people will be asking for. I would guess the next thing people would be asking for is a range estimator circles.
The one thing I have been considering is adding a + or - on the range once inside of 1k.
HiTech
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The grand daddy of them all...............
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Tac: Flip side sarcasim.
All planes should require 10 min warm up and preflight, All fields should be spaced at least 1:00 hour flying time arpart, no airfield was ever that close together, all auto pilots should be removed because most planes didn't have them, and you should have a relife tube so you can't leave your chair, oh yah need to get rid of the channel 100 because in WWII no one ever talked to the enemy, an if you die you should never be able to play the game again.
Sarcasm off:
I realy do get sick of the realism argument because people who use it only wan't there special nit pick on realism but want to protray realism as the only goal worth going after. To that I say bull pucky, Realism is a game issue just like every other topic such as, fun,socail issues, technical issues , balencing getting new players into the game vs provideing a challeng for older players,balancing the difference in all peoples equipment some people have 25" monitors running at 1600x1200 others run 17" at 800x600 now tell me no icons is even close to fair between those 2 different systems.
HiTech
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Your presentation up to this was reasonable, once here you run into your prejudice about what outcomes should really rule this game versus Hitech keeping subscriptions. In this sandbox world Hitech has never forced anyone to be as dedicated as yourself for the fun they pay him to provide. This is why there is an AvA and Special Events arenas. If your more stringent realism were the norm that would keep subscriptions and grow them from Hitech's experience, then the MA would have been your utopia 15 years ago until today.
Being such a "realism" junky, why aren't you hip deep in DCS and even bothering with us apostates? You debate as being intelligent enough to know Hitech has chosen to present his game this way to allow the most fun for the largest number. If he was going to bow to your self appointed superior position, he would have dedicated AHIII's fidelity to your refined sensibilities. I guess by your scale he has chosen to make it just as pedestrian as AH2, and is the chief apostate and bottle washer for the average customer position of not being bothered to learn your standards versus paying for mindless fun.
Some time back players wanted DCS competitive realism with engine management. Hitech's take on it reflects many of the devices he has chosen to make the game less realistic with from your point of view.
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I reject your premiss that it would be more appealing to pilots.
I have come to learn that real pilots tend to branch into 2 categories.
1. System management pilots.
This group of pilots love to have the latest avionics, like to fly cross country. But have never been upside down in an airplane.
2. Stick and rudder pilots.
These pilots love to fly doing nothing but looking out the window. They are interested in perfection of flying not of managing the aircraft. These are the type of pilots who love aerobatics, and also would be interested in learning ACM.
Obviously these are generalizations and there is some cross over. But I am always surprised at the number of pilots who have never been up side down and fall into the first category.
The point of this is that the same thing tends to happen in a flight sim, Aces High is aimed at the stick and rudder guys. It is a very detailed simulation in what it tries to accomplish. That being, giving you the same feel as the real plane. But navigation and engine start procedures are not something that it aims to simulate.These type of items would detract instead of add to normal game play.
HiTech
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Here is an interesting exchange about realism and icons from past.
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Hiya HiTech, welcome to the thread. Care to enlighten us if we'll be seeing any more optional "realism features" like I suggested above? Or perhaps a modified icon system?
I still think it's a shame that the blind bounce has gone the way of the dodo bird in AH. With the widespread use of voice communications in AH, is it really neccessary to retain the current neon icons? Between the icons, the check six feature, the voice comms and the direct six view... chances of bouncing a foe unseen is next to impossible in this day and age.
****
No chance banana. And the myth you create that icons prevent sudden bounces is incorect. People still foreget to look back.
HiTech
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A more recent answer about icons in general.
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You are making many false statements and many wrong assumptions.
1. No icons does not mean more realism.
It would make some thing more, a lot of other things less realistic.
2. No icons does not make the game more difficult.
The difficulty in the game lies in killing some one while they are trying to kill you. It is the other person that creates the difficulty. Turning icons off doesn't change that fact, it merely shifts some of the difficulty to a different skill. So then the question becomes is it more fun using that skill then the way the game is currently set up?
Unintended consequences. What is the net effect, I.E. if it changes the way everyone flies, how will that net effect everyone enjoyment. (similar to the principle if you make living more important it cause everyone to spend a lot more time running and chasing vs fighting)
3. We already have an arena where players try to set it up with things such as you are suggesting.
4. You believe time played has an effect on the validity of your wish.
I mostly see the validity of wishes for "More Realism" is inversely proportional to the length of time played.
HiTech
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Search would have answered many of your arguments......
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Hence why we have zoom, and Icons, it is to give you the functionality you have in real life. But there is absolutly no way to duplicate real eyeballs in real space on a monitor with out adding information in a different manner than you have in real lift. Hence why we have the items like icons,ranges, and zoom to duplicate the fuctionality you have in real life.
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Hitech has a lot invested in his reasons for icons....
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I look at XXXXXX's icons, and can not guess what they meen. There for lots of other people would have the very same problem.
You might want to discuss what you wish out of icon system, not how to implement it first.
Item to discuss first,
Do you wish range info. If so how detailed.
Is there enof closure rate info giveng with the range info, if not do we wish to give closure rate info.
Next think about how it will effect game play. Will it change fighting style, if it does is the way it effects it a good thing?
Also think about how well a new person to AH will understand the info. Simple thing like what range should I shoot at become a problem.
If no range information is given is it just harder or is it more realisitic.
Whats the next thing that has to be written that people will be asking for. I would guess the next thing people would be asking for is a range estimator circles.
The one thing I have been considering is adding a + or - on the range once inside of 1k.
HiTech
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The grand daddy of them all...............
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Tac: Flip side sarcasim.
All planes should require 10 min warm up and preflight, All fields should be spaced at least 1:00 hour flying time arpart, no airfield was ever that close together, all auto pilots should be removed because most planes didn't have them, and you should have a relife tube so you can't leave your chair, oh yah need to get rid of the channel 100 because in WWII no one ever talked to the enemy, an if you die you should never be able to play the game again.
Sarcasm off:
I realy do get sick of the realism argument because people who use it only wan't there special nit pick on realism but want to protray realism as the only goal worth going after. To that I say bull pucky, Realism is a game issue just like every other topic such as, fun,socail issues, technical issues , balencing getting new players into the game vs provideing a challeng for older players,balancing the difference in all peoples equipment some people have 25" monitors running at 1600x1200 others run 17" at 800x600 now tell me no icons is even close to fair between those 2 different systems.
HiTech
Yeah the reverse sarcasm argument is rather silly imo. There is realism that affects combat and realism that does not. Icons affect combat. Making me wait 10min to start or letting me have auto pilot to trim the plane for a climb I could also manually do does not change the fighting.
The realism factors that matter are the ones the proportionally alter the metrics by which an aircraft is measured. I agree with HiTech entirely that certain things are needed to bring the game closer to IRL, such as zooming. But just like in those examples, mechanics such as those need to be introduced to IMPROVE realism and compensate for computer issues. Not for the lols of it. Its unreasonable to think that a person cannot make arguments in favor of realism. This in in fact the self-professed reason HiTech allows for Zoom, and in certain conditions even icons. It is also the reason he has even modeled the game as a sim at all, and not some arcade game like War Thunder. It is also the reason we have scaled fuel consumption, so that long range planes can have reletive usefulness without needing 6 hour missions. It is also the reason we have stalling.....or compression....or flight modeling in general.
So yes. The realism argument is perfectly valid.
If all you wanted was gameplay, there really isnt much a reason to bother making a sim. HiTech has done a excellent job with the modeling in this game. Seems to me the most consistent thing to do would be have icons or lack of icons to match.
I also dont care about anyone's accessibility to the game if that interferes with realism. I dont care if you cant afford a better monitor or gpu or whatever. Trying to make the game for those people is an exercise in futility, and will solve nothing while reducing realism.
And lastly on DCS: That game is garbage. I dont care about being able to move knobs and do complex starts. Those things are nice, but I care more about relative aircraft performance. This is something AH does a far better job of. DCS's flight models are all over the place when it comes to their matching historical documentation. And DCS's vision system is ridiculous in the extreme. You easily lose planes outside of a mile even against the background of the sky. To that end, Ill take HiTech's Icons over the extreme lunacy of ED's vision system.
IMO Aces High does the best job for flight sims in general. I only want to see it get better, and I think removing the icons will do precisely that.
And lastly Bustr: I dont want NO icons. I want less Icons. My original post stated at 1000m or less, but I have since then refined this to as far out to 2km. This is because I AGREE with HiTech completely with many of the points you quoted above. Removing the icons entirely would make some things less realistic, others more. And example would be contrast, since IRL you can see colors much more defined. Withing 2km it makes sense to have something ti compensate for that. There are other reasons as well. What I am mainly against is how far out the icons are. IMO its excessive. It doesn't completely hinder the blind bounce but it does excessively alter it. And more importantly, the long range icons increase long range SA too much. A mere glace out your window tells you how many enemies and friendlies there are, if they are getting closer, and what type of plane. This allows for macro planning to a ludicrous scale. It also turns fights into meat grinders where there is a constant flow a new planes into fights at a unrealistic pace.
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Which is far more realistic than the neon sign icon. And it leads to more realistic tactics as well.
No icons isn't for everyone, or even for most people, I think everyone agrees on that, but ascribing bad motives to no-icon proponents is low.
- oldman
Jimson stated some people don't like the icon to preserve their immersion. I pointed out he can do that today. If he already has the power to control his immersion breaking icon the only reason to push for it to be an arena setting is so that it will affect other peoples' game play as well. Make sense?
Wiley.
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There were some who did just that when enemy icons were on in the AvA, but if you are so convinced that those who like a no icon game only do so to have an unfair advantage, they would only want invisible icons for their plane and not a level playing field for all wouldn't they?
It's one of two things. Either they feel that their settings/setup/eyesight allows them to see well enough that it's not a disadvantage to them, or they have come to the conclusion that the disadvantage they put themselves at is fun, as long as other people have the same disadvantage.
Wiley.
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It's one of two things. Either they feel that their settings/setup/eyesight allows them to see well enough that it's not a disadvantage to them, or they have come to the conclusion that the disadvantage they put themselves at is fun, as long as other people have the same disadvantage.
Wiley.
I'll take the second one then.
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The only thing that is clear from this thread is what YOUR motives are. Its pretty clear that you and bustr think this is some kind of conspiracy to hurt older players. Which is completely asinine.
No, it's not a conspiracy against older players. It is a quest to make eyesight, hardware choice, and monitor and video configuration the single most important aspect of the game. It may not be a motivation, but it will be a side effect of whatever motivations you do have.
I made this request because I think it will make the game more realistic, which is my ONLY motive. Removing the icons over a certain range, say 1-2km for IFF and ID reasons, is completely reasonable.
Realistic for the guy with an HTC Vive, or realistic for the guy playing on a 17 inch 720p monitor? Or is it realistic for the guy playing on a 4k monitor where his dots disappear at range?
IT will alter how the game plays, and IMO, in a good way. YES, you should be less likely to see a bandit coming in to bounce you. This is one of the many reasons the bulk of ww2 air combat was a bounce. The current condition in the MA makes it comically easy for people to maintain SA.
What you dont seem to get is that removing the 6k icons would ALSO improve the lot of people who have the sole interest in this game in "furballing." If you like to dogfight, you will ALSO be much harder to spot by stalking energy fighters.
I have been playing low icon scenarios for around 9 years. I understand how they work just fine thanks.
The real problem of the Icons at 6km is the overabundance of SA. Everyone knows who is where and how far just be merely glancing out of their canopy. This HURTS fighting in general, by turning the combat into a doom conveyor belt. The fight is often times dictated more by which fighters showed up last to the fight rather than by tactics etc. While this would indeed be a factor IRL, the icons make this TOO much of a factor.
So if you are a TnB'r, it will mean you have a lesser chance to have your fight interrupted (unrealistically) by the 9000 other planes in the game that spotting you without any effort at all. If you are a BnZ'r, the same is true.
No, the real problem of no 6k icons is, some guys can see the dot at that distance, some guys can't. This gives the guys that can see them an advantage over the guy that can't. Eyesight and hardware setup should not be the difference between visible enemy and invisible enemy.
Note, I am not saying we dont need icons. the LOD even within 2km is not as good as IRL. You need somehting to compensate for contrast and resolution of a computer monitor vs the far superior capabilities of the human eye.
BUT the AH dot system (excluding the massive AH3 dot thing) is actually pretty good. Spotting planes dots within 6k is easy. With some effort, you can spot them out to 17k if you are looking hard enough. You can even spot planes on the deck from 20k if you know what you are doing.
LASTLY, cut the crap regarding my or anyone else's motives to wanting this feature. One of the reasons I play this game is BECAUSE of the older average age of this community. NOT in spite of it. Generally I find the AH community more inclined to teamwork and mature behavior. This is excluding the adolescent rubbish that happens on the 200 between fully grown men.
The only person who has an ulterior motive here is you. Since it has been pretty directly stated that you and others want the icons to aid health conditions or your lack of spotting procedure, or because you cant be bothered to learn how to scan routinely, realism be damned.
Oh, ok. I thought what I was stating was that I don't believe your hardware and eyesight should be the determining factor between visible enemy and invisible enemy.
EDIT: One other thing, how does it achieve this "realism" if not by making the plane out of icon range less visible to the enemy? In other words, if you're saying it's not that you don't want the enemy to see you, then how is it that the icon not being there affects gameplay?
Wiley.
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I'll take the second one then.
In that case, it's not about your immersion, it's about the other guy not having an advantage over you. Long as you admit it and don't use immersion as a talking point on why no icons is awesome, it makes your case stronger.
Wiley.
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In that case, it's not about your immersion, it's about the other guy not having an advantage over you. Long as you admit it and don't use immersion as a talking point on why no icons is awesome, it makes your case stronger.
Wiley.
It's still about immersion with a level playing field.
Anyway, in the last version of the beta I DL'd, turning enemy icons off didn't work, so if that holds, I'm sure the AvA will fill up every night LOL.
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There will be icons.
Period.
You can argue all you want about immersion, it's the same lame "holier than thou" argument that has gone on infinitum.
If you don't like it, turn your Icons off, immerse yourself in unrealistic visibility all you want.
If you "just don't care" about those that need them to see, well I guess that's just the kind of person you are, it says a lot.
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There will be icons.
Period.
You can argue all you want about immersion, it's the same lame "holier than thou" argument that has gone on infinitum.
If you don't like it, turn your Icons off, immerse yourself in unrealistic visibility all you want.
If you "just don't care" about those that need them to see, well I guess that's just the kind of person you are, it says a lot.
'
It says a alot more about someone when they think the game should be tailored to their personal problems.
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There will be icons.
Period.
You can argue all you want about immersion, it's the same lame "holier than thou" argument that has gone on infinitum.
If you don't like it, turn your Icons off, immerse yourself in unrealistic visibility all you want.
If you "just don't care" about those that need them to see, well I guess that's just the kind of person you are, it says a lot.
There should always be icons in the any plane for any side arena. For side specific arenas, I sort of wish the icons could be set in reverse, to disappear within 800 yards or something.
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Shift8,
Convince Hitech he will make more money changing AHIII into your game utopia. Otherwise you are telling paying customers if you could, you would throw them out of the game no matter that they are paying their bill to satisfy your distaste for how the game is presented.
Fighting with us is lame, you still have not convinced Hitech your desire for how the game should be presented is superior to how he is choosing to present it. If you don't like his presentation, go play DCS.
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Tac: Flip side sarcasim.
All planes should require 10 min warm up and preflight, All fields should be spaced at least 1:00 hour flying time arpart, no airfield was ever that close together, all auto pilots should be removed because most planes didn't have them, and you should have a relife tube so you can't leave your chair, oh yah need to get rid of the channel 100 because in WWII no one ever talked to the enemy, an if you die you should never be able to play the game again.
Sarcasm off:
I realy do get sick of the realism argument because people who use it only wan't there special nit pick on realism but want to protray realism as the only goal worth going after. To that I say bull pucky, Realism is a game issue just like every other topic such as, fun,socail issues, technical issues , balencing getting new players into the game vs provideing a challeng for older players,balancing the difference in all peoples equipment some people have 25" monitors running at 1600x1200 others run 17" at 800x600 now tell me no icons is even close to fair between those 2 different systems.
HiTech
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It's still about immersion with a level playing field.
Anyway, in the last version of the beta I DL'd, turning enemy icons off didn't work, so if that holds, I'm sure the AvA will fill up every night LOL.
So at the end of the day it really is about weakening your opponent. Why is it so hard to own that?
Wiley.
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No, it's not a conspiracy against older players. It is a quest to make eyesight, hardware choice, and monitor and video configuration the single most important aspect of the game. It may not be a motivation, but it will be a side effect of whatever motivations you do have.
Realistic for the guy with an HTC Vive, or realistic for the guy playing on a 17 inch 720p monitor? Or is it realistic for the guy playing on a 4k monitor where his dots disappear at range?
I have been playing low icon scenarios for around 9 years. I understand how they work just fine thanks.
No, the real problem of no 6k icons is, some guys can see the dot at that distance, some guys can't. This gives the guys that can see them an advantage over the guy that can't. Eyesight and hardware setup should not be the difference between visible enemy and invisible enemy.
Oh, ok. I thought what I was stating was that I don't believe your hardware and eyesight should be the determining factor between visible enemy and invisible enemy.
EDIT: One other thing, how does it achieve this "realism" if not by making the plane out of icon range less visible to the enemy? In other words, if you're saying it's not that you don't want the enemy to see you, then how is it that the icon not being there affects gameplay?
Wiley.
I am not on a quest to make certain hardware a major factor in the game. This has nothing to do with what I want. Configuring the game to work properly with many types of resolution and screen is something hitech can do without icon. Other games have done it. It has to do with how the game recognizes resolution and adjusts things proportional to it.
For example Wiley, I would not mind having perhaps icons out to 3k like in FSO. And then having the new mega icons out to 6k, and then after that the small dots. There is more than one way to solve this issue. Reducing the icon ranges is perhaps only part.
Also we have people playing this game with and withou track ir, different controls and joysticks, etc. You can only accommodate this so much. After a certain point you start to impact the game negatively to accommodate various fringes too much. This is an exercise in futility.
Some people will always have advantages over others Wiley. For every guy that cant see the tiny dots, there is also the dude with arthritis that cant fly the plane on the edge of the stall. There is also the guy that just cant process the data you give him etc. Spotting is a skill, just like anything else....
Ok, so you understand how the game works. It didnt seem like from the way you and others were arguing. If we are in agreement on how this would affect realism and tactics, then consider my words to be clarification for the sake of the audience.
On your last point: It is not the range at which you see the enemy that is wrong. 6km is well within human visual range. Icons also help compensate for monitor contrast issues, which no monitor on this earth currently overcomes. To that end, I have no issues with them. They also allow for IFF etc. The issue is that with the icons out to such a long range, it gives players unreasonable tactical SA.
1) instant knowledge of enemy numbers, disposition, closure, and aircraft type. And the Number of friends you have.
2) It does those things at ranges further than you could usually do them IRL.
3) This allows for unrealistic offensive and defensive decision making.
4)It means that ongoing fights are much easier to find, and the tactical decision to interfere made with too much knowledge.
I see no reason why we cant try to accommodate both groups here. We could have shorter range icons, and bigger dots out to 6k or something. That way we solve the over SA issues, and alleviate any strain some might have with spotting at perfectly reasonable ranges.
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Shift8,
Convince Hitech he will make more money changing AHIII into your game utopia. Otherwise you are telling paying customers if you could, you would throw them out of the game no matter that they are paying their bill to satisfy your distaste for how the game is presented.
Fighting with us is lame, you still have not convinced Hitech your desire for how the game should be presented is superior to how he is choosing to present it. If you don't like his presentation, go play DCS.
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Tac: Flip side sarcasim.
All planes should require 10 min warm up and preflight, All fields should be spaced at least 1:00 hour flying time arpart, no airfield was ever that close together, all auto pilots should be removed because most planes didn't have them, and you should have a relife tube so you can't leave your chair, oh yah need to get rid of the channel 100 because in WWII no one ever talked to the enemy, an if you die you should never be able to play the game again.
Sarcasm off:
I realy do get sick of the realism argument because people who use it only wan't there special nit pick on realism but want to protray realism as the only goal worth going after. To that I say bull pucky, Realism is a game issue just like every other topic such as, fun,socail issues, technical issues , balencing getting new players into the game vs provideing a challeng for older players,balancing the difference in all peoples equipment some people have 25" monitors running at 1600x1200 others run 17" at 800x600 now tell me no icons is even close to fair between those 2 different systems.
HiTech
By your own logic, you fighting with me is lame. Do us a favor and stop.
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So at the end of the day it really is about weakening your opponent. Why is it so hard to own that?
Wiley.
Wiley, I fail to see how he is trying to weaken his opponent if he is to subjected to the same changes.
You dont even know how well he or I or anyone sees. For all you know, he is legally blind.
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I am not on a quest to make certain hardware a major factor in the game. This has nothing to do with what I want. Configuring the game to work properly with many types of resolution and screen is something hitech can do without icon. Other games have done it. It has to do with how the game recognizes resolution and adjusts things proportional to it.
It is a side effect of your desire though. Some people can't see dots at 6k. You apparently can. This gives you an edge.
For example Wiley, I would not mind having perhaps icons out to 3k like in FSO. And then having the new mega icons out to 6k, and then after that the small dots. There is more than one way to solve this issue. Reducing the icon ranges is perhaps only part.
Also we have people playing this game with and withou track ir, different controls and joysticks, etc. You can only accommodate this so much. After a certain point you start to impact the game negatively to accommodate various fringes too much. This is an exercise in futility.
None of those things are the difference between visible enemy, and invisible enemy. Without icons, it is possible to be looking right at something and not be able to discern it, where another guy would. That's not good gameplay.
Some people will always have advantages over others Wiley. For every guy that cant see the tiny dots, there is also the dude with arthritis that cant fly the plane on the edge of the stall. There is also the guy that just cant process the data you give him etc. Spotting is a skill, just like anything else....
And it's dependent most heavily on your hardware setup and configuration, secondarily on your eyesight.
Ok, so you understand how the game works. It didnt seem like from the way you and others were arguing. If we are in agreement on how this would affect realism and tactics, then consider my words to be clarification for the sake of the audience.
On your last point: It is not the range at which you see the enemy that is wrong. 6km is well within human visual range. Icons also help compensate for monitor contrast issues, which no monitor on this earth currently overcomes. To that end, I have no issues with them. They also allow for IFF etc. The issue is that with the icons out to such a long range, it gives players unreasonable tactical SA.
1) instant knowledge of enemy numbers, disposition, closure, and aircraft type. And the Number of friends you have.
2) It does those things at ranges further than you could usually do them IRL.
3) This allows for unrealistic offensive and defensive decision making.
4)It means that ongoing fights are much easier to find, and the tactical decision to interfere made with too much knowledge.
I see no reason why we cant try to accommodate both groups here. We could have shorter range icons, and bigger dots out to 6k or something. That way we solve the over SA issues, and alleviate any strain some might have with spotting at perfectly reasonable ranges.
I'm in moderate agreement about the amount of data available at range. Type is a bit excessive at 6k. Number of engines might make more sense. Everybody should know there's something there at 6k though.
I'm not sure what accomodating both groups would look like. Personally I like the "giant dot in AH3" you apparently don't like. I'd like to see that from whatever range we see it at now until icon range, at least with fighters. Bombers are easy enough to see when they start to render, but most fighters vanish to me between 6k and big dot range.
Wiley.
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Wiley, I fail to see how he is trying to weaken his opponent if he is to subjected to the same changes.
You dont even know how well he or I or anyone sees. For all you know, he is legally blind.
Because his "level playing field" means in a situation he'd be able to be seen in the current system, he has less chance of being seen. It's not enough for him to make enemies less visible to him, he has to make himself less visible to them.
Wiley.
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Shift8,
You are refusing to fight with the only person that matters. And he has held true to how he presents this game since I've been here going on about 15 years. Fight against his statement below, it is the only fight that matters because it is why the game has not been changed to your liking. You don't even fake trying to show how Hitech will benefit from what you want and maintain the most important part of his business in the face of unintended consequences. "Maintaining and improving his revenue stream" while pissing off a majority of paying customers in the MA. The closest you come to it is identifying he is a programmer, and it would be just a part of what he does, so he can just do it.
In the end you are the only person fighting anything here, and it's posted below from Hitech in answer to another person asking for what you want. This while fighting with the forum instead of fighting with the creator of the game over how he chooses to present the game. You want the game changed, fight with Hitech. You could have simply wished for no Icons and walked away knowing he probably is not interested.
-----------------------------------------
Tac: Flip side sarcasim.
All planes should require 10 min warm up and preflight, All fields should be spaced at least 1:00 hour flying time arpart, no airfield was ever that close together, all auto pilots should be removed because most planes didn't have them, and you should have a relife tube so you can't leave your chair, oh yah need to get rid of the channel 100 because in WWII no one ever talked to the enemy, an if you die you should never be able to play the game again.
Sarcasm off:
I realy do get sick of the realism argument because people who use it only wan't there special nit pick on realism but want to protray realism as the only goal worth going after. To that I say bull pucky, Realism is a game issue just like every other topic such as, fun,socail issues, technical issues , balencing getting new players into the game vs provideing a challeng for older players,balancing the difference in all peoples equipment some people have 25" monitors running at 1600x1200 others run 17" at 800x600 now tell me no icons is even close to fair between those 2 different systems.
HiTech
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Shift8,
You are refusing to fight with the only person that matters. And he has held true to how he presents this game since I've been here going on about 15 years. Fight against his statement below, it is the only fight that matters because it is why the game has not been changed to your liking. You don't even fake trying to show how Hitech will benefit from what you want and maintain the most important part of his business in the face of unintended consequences. "Maintaining and improving his revenue stream" while pissing off a majority of paying customers in the MA. The closest you come to it is identifying he is a programmer, and it would be just a part of what he does, so he can just do it.
In the end you are the only person fighting anything here, and it's posted below from Hitech in answer to another person asking for what you want. This while fighting with the forum instead of fighting with the creator of the game over how he chooses to present the game. You want the game changed, fight with Hitech. You could have simply wished for no Icons and walked away knowing he probably is not interested.
-----------------------------------------
Tac: Flip side sarcasim.
All planes should require 10 min warm up and preflight, All fields should be spaced at least 1:00 hour flying time arpart, no airfield was ever that close together, all auto pilots should be removed because most planes didn't have them, and you should have a relife tube so you can't leave your chair, oh yah need to get rid of the channel 100 because in WWII no one ever talked to the enemy, an if you die you should never be able to play the game again.
Sarcasm off:
I realy do get sick of the realism argument because people who use it only wan't there special nit pick on realism but want to protray realism as the only goal worth going after. To that I say bull pucky, Realism is a game issue just like every other topic such as, fun,socail issues, technical issues , balencing getting new players into the game vs provideing a challeng for older players,balancing the difference in all peoples equipment some people have 25" monitors running at 1600x1200 others run 17" at 800x600 now tell me no icons is even close to fair between those 2 different systems.
HiTech
I already responded to that statement Buster. Clearly you didnt read it. You can keep posting that statement all you want. you really ought to get HiTech to pay you, for all the apologizing you do for the company.
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So at the end of the day it really is about weakening your opponent. Why is it so hard to own that?
Wiley.
It shouldn't be so hard to understand that no one has an undue advantage if the settings are the same for all.
Talking to you is a waste of time. You are determined to believe what you want to believe, so go ahead with that.
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It is a side effect of your desire though. Some people can't see dots at 6k. You apparently can. This gives you an edge.
None of those things are the difference between visible enemy, and invisible enemy. Without icons, it is possible to be looking right at something and not be able to discern it, where another guy would. That's not good gameplay.
And it's dependent most heavily on your hardware setup and configuration, secondarily on your eyesight.
I'm in moderate agreement about the amount of data available at range. Type is a bit excessive at 6k. Number of engines might make more sense. Everybody should know there's something there at 6k though.
I'm not sure what accomodating both groups would look like. Personally I like the "giant dot in AH3" you apparently don't like. I'd like to see that from whatever range we see it at now until icon range, at least with fighters. Bombers are easy enough to see when they start to render, but most fighters vanish to me between 6k and big dot range.
Wiley.
It doesnt matter if I can see the dots not. If someone else cant, that is a personal problem they should deal with. The game should not be altered to accommodate every oddity under the sun. Should we make the planes easier to turn because someone has arthritis? Etc. Same goes with my suggest for the large dot over 3k. If you look right at a dot and dont see it, that is a skill issue. That person needs to learn how to scan.
Also this whole conversation about hardware setup is nearly pointless. If a person is still playing on a 720p screen and expect HiTech to make game changes for that, that is crazy. We have people playing this game who think everything should remain in the stone age just for their specific situation. HiTech should only make adjustments to accommodate the average hardware of the day. Right now that is 1080p or above. I mean where do you think this should stop? Do you think they should accommodate someone playing on a 480p CRT? What about people who have bad joysticks? Etc ETc.
The eyesight issue is also silly in my estimation. Like all other games, this game should be designed for people who have normal vision. Not specially tailored to fit every person with bad eyesight, arthritis, ADD, neck cramps, back problems, or whatever ailment a person might have.
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It shouldn't be so hard to understand that no one has an undue advantage if the settings are the same for all.
Talking to you is a waste of time. You are determined to believe what you want to believe, so go ahead with that.
He was kind enough to discuss it with you even though as reality would have it, your idea is not a choice HiTech has made. It isn't just him that feels that way, the vast majority knows it too and has seen your argument so many many many times they are not bothering to talk about it.
You know custom arenas were available for you and those that want no icons to set up and play in. I just don't seem to be able to recall threads where you and those few that agree with you were inviting others to come play that way in anything like a regular basis.
You seem sincere and I certainly would not want to fault you for that sir. If I may, those of us that have been here awhile know what we have here and enjoy it more or less as is. I hope you can come to enjoy it also <S>.
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It doesnt matter if I can see the dots not. If someone else cant, that is a personal problem they should deal with. The game should not be altered to accommodate every oddity under the sun. Should we make the planes easier to turn because someone has arthritis? Etc. Same goes with my suggest for the large dot over 3k. If you look right at a dot and dont see it, that is a skill issue. That person needs to learn how to scan.
Or they should just stop being colorblind.
Also this whole conversation about hardware setup is nearly pointless. If a person is still playing on a 720p screen and expect HiTech to make game changes for that, that is crazy. We have people playing this game who think everything should remain in the stone age just for their specific situation. HiTech should only make adjustments to accommodate the average hardware of the day. Right now that is 1080p or above. I mean where do you think this should stop? Do you think they should accommodate someone playing on a 480p CRT? What about people who have bad joysticks? Etc ETc.
Nope. But what I am saying is, depending what hardware you have affects how easy it is to see dots. Regardless of how good or bad the hardware is, certain configurations are easier to see dots with than others. You guys automatically assume when I'm talking about hardware, I'm saying the better your hardware is, the easier it is to see dots. That's not what I'm saying at all. In fact, a guy running on a 640 x 480 CRT can probably see dots a helluva lot easier than a guy running on a 4k screen. My point is, regardless of what hardware you're running, it should not be the difference between visible enemy and invisible enemy.
You know what's a really excellent way to make people equally visible regardless of your hardware? Icons.
The eyesight issue is also silly in my estimation. Like all other games, this game should be designed for people who have normal vision. Not specially tailored to fit every person with bad eyesight, arthritis, ADD, neck cramps, back problems, or whatever ailment a person might have.
Yeah. Screw those guys. :aok
Wiley.
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It shouldn't be so hard to understand that no one has an undue advantage if the settings are the same for all.
Talking to you is a waste of time. You are determined to believe what you want to believe, so go ahead with that.
Except that varying hardware affects what can/can't be seen. But you don't want to admit that that's a factor for some reason. I don't understand why you guys won't accept the downsides of your choice, and just pretend they don't exist. However you insist on throwing up words like "immersion" and "realism" to attempt to gain support.
Wiley.
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He was kind enough to discuss it with you even though as reality would have it, your idea is not a choice HiTech has made. It isn't just him that feels that way, the vast majority knows it too and has seen your argument so many many many times they are not bothering to talk about it.
You know custom arenas were available for you and those that want no icons to set up and play in. I just don't seem to be able to recall threads where you and those few that agree with you were inviting others to come play that way in anything like a regular basis.
You seem sincere and I certainly would not want to fault you for that sir. If I may, those of us that have been here awhile know what we have here and enjoy it more or less as is. I hope you can come to enjoy it also <S>.
You seem to misunderstand. I have never advocated a no icon game in the MA.
I am only defending those that enjoy a NO ENEMY icon game in the AvA, from the unfair accusations that they are only seeking an advantage over other players, that's all.
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It doesnt matter if I can see the dots not. If someone else cant, that is a personal problem they should deal with. The game should not be altered to accommodate every oddity under the sun.
Sir it is you that is suggesting the game should be altered. HiTech set it up as you see it and play it now, with ICONS. I hope you can continue to enjoy it as it is.
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Except that varying hardware affects what can/can't be seen. But you don't want to admit that that's a factor for some reason. I don't understand why you guys won't accept the downsides of your choice, and just pretend they don't exist. However you insist on throwing up words like "immersion" and "realism" to attempt to gain support.
Wiley.
Again, I am not advocating expansion of the use of no icons.
I have never supported it's use in the MA.
i am defending those that enjoy that type of game from false characterizations.
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You seem to be confused. I have never advocated a no icon game in the MA.
I am only defending those that enjoy a NO ENEMY icon game in the AvA, from the unfair accusations that they are only seeking an advantage over other players, that's all.
I apologize for my confusion. I was talking about no Icons in any arena actually. The exception would be custom arenas that are the choice of the few who want them. If they were popular and continuing, I am pretty sure a permanent arena would be set up to accommodate them.
I know you don't think the no ICONS in the AVA is not the reason it was empty, but that is the reason I did not play in it. There is nothing I would like more than to have an Axis VS Allied arena a viable setting. As you may know, I am a member of JG11, we only fly Axis aircraft in the MA. I never relish going up against other axis aircraft in the MA. I want to fight the Allied's in my Luftwaffe birds, every time.
Lastly sir, <S>, I truly appreciate you trying to make the AVA work as you are a staff member. I appreciate your efforts and respect you greatly for that.
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Jimson, where exactly in "Southern Arizona" do you live. I'm in Phoenix, I'd love to giggle about the game over a couple of beers.
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It shouldn't be so hard to understand that no one has an undue advantage if the settings are the same for all.
Talking to you is a waste of time. You are determined to believe what you want to believe, so go ahead with that.
actually there's a disadvantage for me. when the pigs used to go to the ava during squad night a few years ago, I couldnt play. I couldnt tell the difference between a plane and the shadow. I got 20/20 vision but anything a foot away from me is a blur. I have same problem in fso and scenarios. I just follow the people untill the icons appear then I can see the planes.
and just for your info, I have a 27in monitor at 1440, 970 vc with a 2500k cpu. I play ah3 with everything on and 1 notch of em. but if there's a plane flying at treetop level or just above the waves, I cant hit it for crap.
semp
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Zoney
I'm down Tucson way, but if either of us ever get up or down each others way we'll have that beer.
I'm sure you know the history of the AvA. It has struggled for a long while to gain successful attendance, long before I became involved.
Several years ago at the suggestion of NrRaven, jaeger turned the enemy icons off. This turned out to be the most successful period in the AvA in recent times and it started all the contention too, but for a couple of years we had some good times.
We built a core group of no enemy icon fans. After awhile it wore off and we tried several time to turn them back on and it seemed we lost more regulars than we gained. For a while an update made it impossible to turn them off.
Most recently it's been a struggle no matter what the icon settings were.
I don't know if you were with JG11 a few years ago when we were running a weekly 8th vs LW set up in there.
We had enemy icons on for that, so we were never totally inflexible.
I have been on an extended break from the game for a while so I'm not sure what settings the guys currently run but I am planning on returning.
I have always wanted to try a Combat Tour lite sort of RPG game employing the staged mission system. I'll do it with any icon settings. Icons on or off aren't a deal breaker to me.
I kind of like the idea of an icon system where they would become visible further out like they currently do, but would disappear under 1000 yards distance or less.
That would provide some of the things I like about it without some of the things others don't
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Again, I am not advocating expansion of the use of no icons.
I have never supported it's use in the MA.
i am defending those that enjoy that type of game from false characterizations.
You keep saying "level playing field" then ignoring the fact that different hardware can render things around you invisible. I fail to see the false characterization.
Wiley.
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You keep saying "level playing field" then ignoring the fact that different hardware can render things around you invisible. I fail to see the false characterization.
Wiley.
I can't help you if you refuse to believe that "gaming the game" isn't the reason why a lot of us like no enemy icons.
You don't know what sort of hardware any of us have. For all you know, you see the dots better than we do.
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I can't help you if you refuse to believe that "gaming the game" isn't the reason why a lot of us like no enemy icons.
You don't know what sort of hardware any of us have. For all you know, you see the dots better than we do.
And that is exactly my point. I do not care what you see. It does not matter what we personally see.
What does matter is the game's single most important feature, the ability to see and identify other aircraft, should not be most dependent on your hardware and eyesight to be effective. That is flat out bad design.
Wiley.
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And that is exactly my point. I do not care what you see. It does not matter what we personally see.
What does matter is the game's single most important feature, the ability to see and identify other aircraft, should not be most dependent on your hardware and eyesight to be effective. That is flat out bad design.
Wiley.
So what do you want? never to have no icons in the main arena? I agree.
Is that enough or do you want every arena to be forced to run icons at all times?
If you have some strange need for me to "see the light" and agree with you, I guess you will have to be disappointed.
Cheers.
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So what do you want? never to have no icons in the main arena? I agree.
Is that enough or do you want every arena to be forced to run icons at all times?
If you have some strange need for me to "see the light" and agree with you, I guess you will have to be disappointed.
Cheers.
What I want is for you guys to own up to the fact that you want to hobble your opponents. You keep saying "oh no no no. Immersion... Realism". That is how bad ideas gain traction is people seeing stuff like that without seeing the downside.
Your post I responded to in the first place was you saying you didn't want to hobble your opponents you just wanted immersion. As I pointed out, your goal is actually to have your opponents less able to see you so you can bounce them and whatever else. I just do not see why you guys have such a problem with saying that.
And then in the next breath when people start talking about how to set up your rig to see dots easier, well that's kind of like advocating for night flying with your finger on the gamma adjustment slider. It is kind of hard not to look at it as trying to gain advantage.
Simply put, in much the same way you do not like it when people point out the above, I do not like it when you guys attempt to claim it is not about giving yourselves less aware opponents.
Wiley.
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You can just go on not liking it then because that is not the case.
Move on dude.
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You can just go on not liking it then because that is not the case.
Move on dude.
Just answer this simple question- How is it exactly that no icons changes your opponent's behavior if not by making him less able to see the other aircraft around him?
Wiley.
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Just answer this simple question- How is it exactly that no icons changes your opponent's behavior if not by making him less able to see the other aircraft around him?
Wiley.
As much as the settings allow, it changes it for everyone. I only see through my eyes, so I don't know what everyone else sees.
For me, it's more satisfying to ID a plane model by sight, not billboard. I think it makes the game look cooler.
Equipment advantages occur throughout this game. I don't know who has a giant monitor and I don't know who has custom rudder pedals and the top of the line hotas.
This game isn't like IL2/Hyperlobby. I can't create a custom arena without a lot of limitations.
We never had two AvA's to offer, one icon, one no icon, so we took a little used arena and gave it a different twist. We found at the time, there was a market for it.
If what you say about the game play is accurate, it is a byproduct, not the main impetus.
At least for me it is, and you are not qualified to determine what my motives are.
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If what you say about the game play is accurate, it is a byproduct, not the main impetus.
It is a byproduct, but it's a major, fundamental gamechanging consequence for other players. That's all I was ever saying. With your immersion, comes this consequence.
By Shift8's posts, he thinks he has the "scanning" skill for it not to affect him/give him an edge. He is option 1 of the two I mentioned, you happen to be the 2.
Wiley.
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you happen to be the 2.
Wiley.
Fair enough