Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: oboe on July 08, 2017, 09:30:46 AM

Title: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: oboe on July 08, 2017, 09:30:46 AM
From the hangar, this morning, Saturday 8 Jul 17:

Aircraft Perks
Me262207
B-29133
Me163103
Ar.23459
Tempest41
Mosquito23
F4U-1C21
F4U-421

Vehicle Perks
Tiger II110
JagdPanther33
Tiger It22
Panther G16
JagdPanzer IV/704
Sherman Firefly4
T34/852
M181
M4A3(76)W1

Not a complaint, just an observation and musing.  My question is basically why does it seem to work to have a higher percentage of vehicles perked than aircraft?  There are far more aircraft than vehicles in the game, yet more vehicles are perked.   But I don't see whining on the BB about this.  Why does the community seem to accept lightly perked vehicles?   What if the Spitfire XVI, the Yak-3 and La-7, the FW-190D, the P-47M and P-51D, Tu-2, Ki-67 and B-26 were lightly perked, like the bottom tier of perk vehicles?   

Is it that GVers just don't whine like pilots do?   That GVers don't have "favorite" rides they insist on being free?

Or, could it be the difference in the nature of combat - when you select a perked vehicle and spawn in, you are almost certainly committed to combat, but in a perked A/C you generally have the speed to run away from combat if you choose.   So perking more aircraft might result in more timid air combat, with perked a/c disengaging and running?   But I wonder, would that hold true if the cost was merely 1 or 2 perk points?   And would a slight perk cost be enough to alter the percentage of 190Ds, Yak-3s and Spit XVIs we see in the MA?   

I think I recall the rationale for the perk system as being designed to put a limit on the aircraft that were capable of "breaking" the MA by being so numerous and out-competing & out-performing all other A/C.  I *think* it may have started with the F4u-1C, or maybe the Me262.

So I wonder, does the M-18 Hellcat for example, have the ability to "break" combat in the GV environment?   Is it more of an influence in the GV war than, for example, an Fw190D is in the air war?

I'm not proposing anything, just interested in a discussion.   What do you guys think?  Why does the community seem to tolerate lightly perked vehicles, but not lightly perked A/C?   



   
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 08, 2017, 09:51:49 AM
Perk everything apart from few early war planes  :old:


So seeing a late war plane like the yak 3 or spit 16  is actualy a 'wow, he got this plane' moment in the game.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: The Fugitive on July 08, 2017, 10:04:18 AM
I think the perk price is about balance. By some what limiting but not completely stopping the use of some of the equipment it gives players 1, something to work for, and 2 a bit of variety in what they run into. The Chog is the one that started it. When it first came out it was THE ride of choice. The hog in it self is a great plane, add it the best fire power in the game and its a monster! So everyone used it and that was all you pretty much saw, well those and Ak-AKs 38  :devil

The GVs came later in the development of the game and I think maybe HTC added the same perk prices to hepl control the the balance a bit better. It may be a bit of a nightmare to rebuild the perks system of the older stuff (planes), or it just may not be that high on the list of things to do, but it has been a long time since the last adjustment to the perks on planes. Lusche? You can chime in here, was it a 190 that got changed?

Another thought, it IS Aces High after all and maybe they have less planes perked because they would like to see players in planes. 
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: redcatcherb412 on July 08, 2017, 12:39:56 PM
So I wonder, does the M-18 Hellcat for example, have the ability to "break" combat in the GV environment?

The m18 with its open turret can be taken out by a jeep with a single m2 .50 cal. or a single pass by any aircraft with a few BB rounds on board.

But it's the fastest moving tank in the inventory and sports the 76mm M4 cannon. The M8 is a bit faster but not a tank, just a light armored car, can be taken out as easily as the M18 but sports a peashooter compared to the M18 and is unperked.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Spikes on July 08, 2017, 01:03:41 PM
The idea of light perks on the 5ENY aircraft is interesting. The light perks on GVs I think are kind of a little deterrent to not spam them like crazy, even though many have tons of GV perks.

The beauty of this game is that you can basically fly whatever you want whenever you want. Perking something as iconic as the P-51D might have an adverse affect even if it's minimum is 1 and maximum is 2, just because someone wants to get in and fly it right away. In the same sense, it is easy enough to get 1 or 2 perks to be able to fly a P-51D.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 08, 2017, 01:16:58 PM
the P-51D might have an adverse affect even if it's minimum is 1 and maximum is 2, just because someone wants to get in and fly it right away.

The question is how many people want to fly 'their' plane instantly? 10? 20?

and how many more new players could be potentialy playing with new game mechanics ?


The fun is in all of the planes, not only in one. Playing a cherry picked plane to 'own' other players is not the best and it runs off new players.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Spikes on July 08, 2017, 01:21:16 PM
I mean I don't think you'd attract new players by changing this one particular game mechanic.

I suppose in hindsight it is no different than a game like Warthunder where you have to grind through 7 other planes to get to fly a P51D.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 08, 2017, 01:23:36 PM
I mean I don't think you'd attract new players by changing this one particular game mechanic.

I suppose in hindsight it is no different than a game like Warthunder where you have to grind through 7 other planes to get to fly a P51D.

Changing this one game mechanic changes A LOT actualy, because then everyone is flying a early war plane as opposed to late war planes only and every plane is used.

Thus new players do not get bored so fast constantly fighting vs 1 plane and complaining that they are being owned by vets in  p51 or ta 152 or other yak 3 spit 16 ki84 etc
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Spikes on July 08, 2017, 01:53:16 PM
I suppose it is possible, but the likelihood of vets not flying those planes because they have a perk price of 2 is low, when most have plenty of perks and you can easily break even in said plane.

I see what you're saying, but the low price is basically just to deter constant spamming (ie for breaking a cap). I like to use the T-34-85 but I'm not going to continuously up it to break a spawn camp.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Zoney on July 08, 2017, 02:00:22 PM
The question is how many people want to fly 'their' plane instantly? 10? 20?

So, what's the answer?

and how many more new players could be potentialy playing with new game mechanics ?

I don't know, how many?


The fun is in all of the planes, not only in one.

For whom?  Are you speaking for yourself or for all of us here?

Playing a cherry picked plane to 'own' other players is not the best and it runs off new players.

It does that for sure?  Why can't new players fly those same planes?
  Will there be a difference in the result when a newbie is in a P51 against a veteran in a P51, compared to a newbie in a P40 against  a veteran in a P40?




Changing this one game mechanic changes A LOT actualy, because then everyone is flying a early war plane as opposed to late war planes only and every plane is used.

So, again, you've decided that because this is what you want then everyone else surely must want it, and it's better for everyone and it's better gameplay, and you've based this on what?

Thus new players do not get bored so fast constantly fighting vs 1 plane and complaining that they are being owned by vets in  p51 or ta 152 or other yak 3 spit 16 ki84 etc

Is this your personal complaint, or is this what you observed during your 2 week trial where you figured everything out, made friends with all the new guys which you figured out whom they were, and then solicited their opinion?

You're guessing here nuggy which is just fine, but the tone you set during your guesses is "somehow informed and in touch" with how everything works and how much better your ideas would make the game, based on your vast experience.  You see what I'm getting at nuggy?  Do you recognize why their might be some reluctance on my part to hold your opinions as high value?
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 08, 2017, 02:06:34 PM
You're guessing here nuggy which is just fine

I'm guessing and i'm not guessing. If HTC wanted everyone to fly one plane, he would create one plane,  but Aces High has over 50 planes - fact.

If the top dogs fly the 'one' plane, then naturaly the worse player HAS to take the 'one' plane to be able to compete vs them.

If Aces High has over 50 planes, but everyone is flying one plane to stay competetive vs other players, something is not correct.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Zoney on July 08, 2017, 02:17:17 PM
What is not correct is your statement that "everyone is flying one plane".

Here is last month's Plane stats:


Melee Tour 209 Statistics for all planes/vehicles/boats
Plane Name   Kills   Deaths   Kill/Death Ratio
A-20G   1236   1074   1.15
A6M2   50   104   0.48
A6M3   227   351   0.64
A6M5b   1435   1434   1.00
Ar 234   14   53   0.26
B-17G   1131   2669   0.42
B-24J   820   2131   0.38
B-25C   64   548   0.12
B-25H   351   879   0.40
B-26B   693   2526   0.27
B-29   47   50   0.92
B5N2   18   94   0.19
Bf 109E-4   87   106   0.81
Bf 109F-4   400   494   0.81
Bf 109G-14   900   737   1.22
Bf 109G-2   367   391   0.94
Bf 109G-6   535   588   0.91
Bf 109K-4   1279   1140   1.12
Bf 110C-4b   35   71   0.49
Bf 110G-2   1244   1445   0.86
Boston III   51   200   0.25
Brewster B-239   636   1000   0.64
C-47A   79   1003   0.08
C.202   172   107   1.59
C.205   429   431   0.99
D3A1   10   33   0.29
F4F-4   164   158   1.03
F4U-1   725   570   1.27
F4U-1A   2720   1622   1.68
F4U-1C   885   335   2.63
F4U-1D   1481   1886   0.78
F4U-4   824   282   2.91
F6F-5   2039   2530   0.81
Fi 156   91   1317   0.07
FM2   1059   925   1.14
Fw 190A-5   957   584   1.64
Fw 190A-8   1906   1905   1.00
Fw 190D-9   3898   2483   1.57
Fw 190F-8   289   588   0.49
G4M1 Betty   7   89   0.08
He 111H   20   395   0.05
Hurricane Mk I   45   40   1.10
Hurricane Mk IIC   423   541   0.78
Hurricane Mk IID   102   160   0.63
I-16   110   253   0.43
Il-2   526   724   0.73
Ju 87D-3   51   90   0.56
Ju 87G-2   101   219   0.46
Ju 88   97   864   0.11
Ki-43-II   297   327   0.91
Ki-61-I-Tei   287   237   1.21
Ki-67   102   256   0.40
Ki-84-Ia   3090   2405   1.28
La-5FN   609   549   1.11
La-7   2893   2347   1.23
Lancaster III   1285   5935   0.22
Me 163B   223   43   5.07
Me 262   759   107   7.03
Me 410   559   530   1.05
Mosquito Mk VI   1357   1246   1.09
Mosquito Mk XVI   12   111   0.11
N1K2   2610   2341   1.11
P-38G   247   247   1.00
P-38J   1343   879   1.53
P-38L   2472   2582   0.96
P-39D   26   43   0.59
P-39Q   90   209   0.43
P-40C   33   41   0.79
P-40E   19   38   0.49
P-40F   35   38   0.90
P-40N   177   238   0.74
P-47-D11   459   350   1.31
P-47-D25   429   444   0.96
P-47-D40   1220   1358   0.90
P-47M   2799   1742   1.61
P-47N   438   772   0.57
P-51B   758   654   1.16
P-51D   4396   3963   1.11
SBD-5   27   120   0.22
SdKfz 251   15   48   0.31
Sea Hurricane Mk I   119   137   0.86
SeaFire   915   1042   0.88
Spitfire Mk I   14   61   0.23
Spitfire Mk IX   1233   1319   0.93
Spitfire Mk V   180   291   0.62
Spitfire Mk VIII   1060   1089   0.97
Spitfire Mk XIV   709   751   0.94
Spitfire Mk XVI   4192   3712   1.13
Ta 152H   554   384   1.44
TBM-3   53   357   0.15
Tempest   926   150   6.13
TU-2S   490   1940   0.25
Typhoon IB   862   750   1.15
Yak-3   2908   2261   1.29
Yak-7B   36   83   0.43
Yak-9T   151   280   0.54
Yak-9U   190   207   0.91
Totals   106386   115748   0.92

Which "one" of these plane's is the "one" everyone is flying.  I'm confused it seems.

Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Spikes on July 08, 2017, 02:20:08 PM
I guess I don't understand what you are getting at...perking something doesn't mean nobody is going to fly it anymore, people still fly 262s and Tempests. It just puts a limit on the amount you see based on the price you give it.

If there's an issue with everyone flying the LA7, P51D, 190D, Yak3, etc. then we can attempt to limit it.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 08, 2017, 02:21:20 PM
Quote
Which "one" of these plane's is the "one" everyone is flying.  I'm confused it seems.


Look at the numbers of the 'top' planes like p51d yak3 or spit 16 ki84  in comparison to other planes


spit 16  - 4000

p40 e - 19
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 08, 2017, 02:22:12 PM
It just puts a limit on the amount you see based on the price you give it.

If there's an issue with everyone flying the LA7, P51D, 190D, Yak3, etc. then we can attempt to limit it.

Exactly, the point is to see more different variants of planes, especialy from early war.


By having perks on planes, a players would naturaly progress from lowest plane to top plane,  thus we would see varation of all planes in the arena.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Spikes on July 08, 2017, 02:24:49 PM
I mean the K/D ratios of the "top planes" aren't higher than 1.5 which IMO is good, whereas all of the perk fighters have a K/D of 2.5+ (rightfully so?).
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: atlau on July 08, 2017, 02:27:27 PM
Probably because people who are in perk planes are going to be more risk adverse so as to not lose their perks. Whereas La7s are free.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 08, 2017, 02:27:39 PM
I mean the K/D ratios of the "top planes" aren't higher than 1.5 which IMO is good, whereas all of the perk fighters have a K/D of 2.5+ (rightfully so?).

But you can deduct the general usage of them by that


4000 kills means they were used a lot

p40E 19 kills   means it was pretty much not used at all
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Spikes on July 08, 2017, 02:34:40 PM
I don't think it's really possible to limit people to flying those planes without it being detrimental to the health of the game. Players had the option to fly in Early and Mid war arenas and there was rarely anyone in there but to farm perks to begin with.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Devil 505 on July 08, 2017, 02:46:28 PM
But you can deduct the general usage of them by that


4000 kills means they were used a lot

p40E 19 kills   means it was pretty much not used at all

This is why Lusche uses kills+deaths as his metric to get a better picture of actual usage. Kills/Deaths is then used to judge success.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 08, 2017, 02:47:21 PM
Kills/Deaths is then used to judge success.

Yes but if one plane has 4000 kills and other 19 it also means it was used a lot more.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Spikes on July 08, 2017, 02:52:05 PM
You can't force people to not fly a P51D just like you can't force people to fly a P40E. People like late war stuff, because they're good and fast. Many of these planes have their place in events and are monsters in their own right when matched up against other planes of the same time frame.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: lunatic1 on July 08, 2017, 02:52:13 PM
I'm guessing and i'm not guessing. If HTC wanted everyone to fly one plane, he would create one plane,  but Aces High has over 50 planes - fact.

If the top dogs fly the 'one' plane, then naturaly the worse player HAS to take the 'one' plane to be able to compete vs them.

If Aces High has over 50 planes, but everyone is flying one plane to stay competetive vs other players, something is not correct.

your assuming that it's the plane that wins the fight, a really good pilot say like Rud3boi can consistently get kills in any plane he fly's I would say 70% Pilot AND 30% Plane. and I'm talking about early and mid war  planes, I have shot down late war planes with early and mid war planes, oooh the perkies. you make it sound like we should just stop flying when new players come on, I had to learn the hard way, keep in mind the only flying games I had up until I found AH was on PS2 and PS3
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: lunatic1 on July 08, 2017, 02:53:41 PM
I don't think it's really possible to limit people to flying those planes without it being detrimental to the health of the game. Players had the option to fly in Early and Mid war arenas and there was rarely anyone in there but to farm perks to begin with.

and to work on acheviements
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: lunatic1 on July 08, 2017, 02:56:50 PM
But you can deduct the general usage of them by that


4000 kills means they were used a lot

p40E 19 kills   means it was pretty much not used at all

SO WHAT, perked and unperked, people are going to fly what they want
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Zoney on July 08, 2017, 03:15:39 PM
SO WHAT, perked and unperked, people are going to fly what they want


Ding Ding Ding!!!   Exactly correct.  so the only folks this will effect will be newbies without perks to spend.  That will be an 'adverse" effect by the way.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 08, 2017, 03:19:08 PM
Sure everyone will fly what they want in the end.


but the journey to get there leads everyone through, early --> mid war ---> late war planes,  so there is a bigger variety of planes used.


This is the purpose of this - to have a wider variety of planes used, and if everyone has to go this way, we will see a lot more planes from different era.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: oboe on July 08, 2017, 03:24:06 PM
Thanks for this data!   I'm not sure how statistically valid this method is, but I tried to show overall use as "Kills + Deaths".  I think I've seen Lusche use that.   The planes that I often see pretty much dominate the top of this list, although I was surprised that the Ki-84 and La-7 both outrank the Yak-3.  I think it'd be interesting to see what a token perk cost would do to usage of the top planes.  Perhaps as Lunatic points out, people will fly what they want.  I know in both vehicles and planes, I'm perk-limited, so I make more conscious choices of what I fly, and there are some planes (like a formation of B-29s) that I just don't have perks for.  I don't mind variety - I enjoy it in fact; I'd get bored stiff in the same plane over and over.  But I don't expect all other players to act like that, although I wouldn't be surprised if all the players would prefer to see more variety in what aircraft they encounter, as long as it doesn't impact their choice to fly what they want....
   Melee Tour 209 Statistics                            
   Aircraft      Kills      Deaths      K/D Ratio      (K+D)/(Total K+D)   
   P-51D      4396      3963      1.11      3.76%   
   Spitfire Mk XVI      4192      3712      1.13      3.56%   
   Lancaster      1285      5935      0.22      3.25%   
   190D-9      3898      2483      1.57      2.87%   
   Ki-84-Ia      3090      2405      1.28      2.47%   
   La-7      2893      2347      1.23      2.36%   
   Yak-3      2908      2261      1.29      2.33%   
   P-38L      2472      2582      0.96      2.28%   
   N1K2      2610      2341      1.11      2.23%   
   F6F-5      2039      2530      0.81      2.06%   
   P-47M      2799      1742      1.61      2.04%   
   F4U-1A      2720      1622      1.68      1.95%   
   190A-8      1906      1905      1      1.72%   
   B-17G      1131      2669      0.42      1.71%   
   F4U-1D      1481      1886      0.78      1.52%   
   B-26B      693      2526      0.27      1.45%   
   B-24J      820      2131      0.38      1.33%   
   A6M5b      1435      1434      1      1.29%   
   110G-2      1244      1445      0.86      1.21%   
   Mosquito Mk VI      1357      1246      1.09      1.17%   
   P-47-D40      1220      1358      0.9      1.16%   
   Spitfire Mk IX      1233      1319      0.93      1.15%   
   TU-2S      490      1940      0.25      1.09%   
   109K-4      1279      1140      1.12      1.09%   
   A-20G      1236      1074      1.15      1.04%   
   P-38J      1343      879      1.53      1.00%   
   Spitfire Mk VIII      1060      1089      0.97      0.97%   
   FM2      1059      925      1.14      0.89%   
   SeaFire      915      1042      0.88      0.88%   
   109G-14      900      737      1.22      0.74%   
   Brewster      636      1000      0.64      0.74%   
   Typhoon      862      750      1.15      0.73%   
   190A-5      957      584      1.64      0.69%   
   Spitfire Mk XIV      709      751      0.94      0.66%   
   P-51B      758      654      1.16      0.64%   
   Fi156      91      1317      0.07      0.63%   
   F4U-1      725      570      1.27      0.58%   
   Il-2      526      724      0.73      0.56%   
   B-25H      351      879      0.4      0.55%   
   F4U-1C      885      335      2.63      0.55%   
   P-47N      438      772      0.57      0.54%   
   La-5FN      609      549      1.11      0.52%   
   109G-6      535      588      0.91      0.51%   
   F4U-4      824      282      2.91      0.50%   
   ME410      559      530      1.05      0.49%   
   C-47A      79      1003      0.08      0.49%   
   Tempest      926      150      6.13      0.48%   
   Hurricane Mk IIC      423      541      0.78      0.43%   
   JU88      97      864      0.11      0.43%   
   TA152H      554      384      1.44      0.42%   
   109F-4      400      494      0.81      0.40%   
   190F-8      289      588      0.49      0.39%   
   P-47-D25      429      444      0.96      0.39%   
   ME262      759      107      7.03      0.39%   
   C.205      429      431      0.99      0.39%   
   P-47-D11      459      350      1.31      0.36%   
   109G-2      367      391      0.94      0.34%   
   Ki-43-II      297      327      0.91      0.28%   
   B-25C      64      548      0.12      0.28%   
   A6M3      227      351      0.64      0.26%   
   Ki-61-I-Tei      287      237      1.21      0.24%   
   P-38G      247      247      1      0.22%   
   Spitfire Mk V      180      291      0.62      0.21%   
   Yak-9T      151      280      0.54      0.19%   
   He 111H      20      395      0.05      0.19%   
   P-40N      177      238      0.74      0.19%   
   TBM-3      53      357      0.15      0.18%   
   Yak-9U      190      207      0.91      0.18%   
   I-16      110      253      0.43      0.16%   
   Ki-67      102      256      0.4      0.16%   
   F4F-4      164      158      1.03      0.14%   
   Ju87G-2      101      219      0.46      0.14%   
   P-39Q      90      209      0.43      0.13%   
   C.202      172      107      1.59      0.13%   
   ME 163B      223      43      5.07      0.12%   
   Hurricane Mk IID      102      160      0.63      0.12%   
   Sea Hurricane Mk I      119      137      0.86      0.12%   
   Boston      51      200      0.25      0.11%   
   109E-2      87      106      0.81      0.09%   
   A6M2      50      104      0.48      0.07%   
   SBD-5      27      120      0.22      0.07%   
   JU87D-3      51      90      0.56      0.06%   
   Mosquito Mk XVI      12      111      0.11      0.06%   
   Yak-7B      36      83      0.43      0.05%   
   B5N2      18      94      0.19      0.05%   
   110C-4b      35      71      0.49      0.05%   
   B-29      47      50      0.92      0.04%   
   G4M1      7      89      0.08      0.04%   
   Hurricane Mk I      45      40      1.1      0.04%   
   Spitfire Mk I      14      61      0.23      0.03%   
   P-40C      33      41      0.79      0.03%   
   P-40F      35      38      0.9      0.03%   
   P-39D      26      43      0.59      0.03%   
   Ar234      14      53      0.26      0.03%   
   SdKfz 251      15      48      0.31      0.03%   
   P-40E      19      38      0.49      0.03%   
   D3A1      10      33      0.29      0.02%   
   Totals      106386      115748      0.92      100.00%   
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Zimme83 on July 08, 2017, 03:27:26 PM
Sure everyone will fly what they want in the end.


but the journey to get there leads everyone through, early --> mid war ---> late war planes,  so there is a bigger variety of planes used.


This is the purpose of this - to have a wider variety of planes used, and if everyone has to go this way, we will see a lot more planes from different era.

So what you want is to force newbies to fly only I-16 and P-40 while the pros can meet them in Tempests and 4-hogs...
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 08, 2017, 03:28:50 PM
So what you want is to force newbies to fly only I-16 and P-40 while the pros can meet them in Tempests and 4-hogs...

lol

Everyone would start the same if this would be changed,   nuke the current perks  :neener:



and if a new player comes 2 years from now,  that's just how life is,  players in games like War Thunder and World of Tanks have to play vs level 5 tanks in level 2
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: oboe on July 08, 2017, 03:40:16 PM
Even if you nuke current perk balances, vets are so much more adept at earning perks it wouldn't be long before we're back to the imbalance.

I had an idea to make it a little easier to earn perks for anyone willing to spend the time- for example, spawning from a hangar and taxiing to the runway rather than spawning directly at the end of the runway could earn a small perk bonus for your sortie.  (It may also lead to more ground-operations type activity at the field, which again might help YouTube video producers make AH films with more varied action).  This particular idea doesn't take anything away from anybody, just adds a little opportunity for those willing to do it.

Still curious how/why the GVers simply accept the light perk cost of some vehicles, but for pilots, even talking about it seems to lead to complaints...

 
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: thrila on July 08, 2017, 03:46:37 PM
I believe there is a lot more variety of planes flown in the MA than there used to be. I don't think variety of aircraft we see in the MA is poor at all.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Devil 505 on July 08, 2017, 03:47:16 PM
and if a new player comes 2 years from now,  that's just how life is,  players in games like War Thunder and World of Tanks have to play vs level 5 tanks in level 2

And those games suck bellybutton because of their grind and pay-to-win tier system. Which is what you are essentially asking for.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Zoney on July 08, 2017, 03:55:04 PM
lol

Everyone would start the same if this would be changed,   nuke the current perks  :neener:



and if a new player comes 2 years from now,  that's just how life is,  players in games like War Thunder and World of Tanks have to play vs level 5 tanks in level 2

Sooooooo.....What you want is for me to lose my perks I have earned so when and if you ever start actually playing you and I will have a level playing field, but, once you've earned your perks and have an advantage over the new guys 2 years from now then you should be able to keep your perks because, "that's just the way it is" in other games.




Wow, just.............wow.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 08, 2017, 04:01:28 PM
Sooooooo.....What you want is for me to lose my perks I have earned so when and if you ever start actually playing you and I will have a level playing field, but, once you've earned your perks and have an advantage over the new guys 2 years from now then you should be able to keep your perks because, "that's just the way it is" in other games.




Wow, just.............wow.

You can keep your perks, i can catch up in time, doesn't bother me to fly a spit 1 vs p51.


But i'm getting constant contradicting opinions here,  one user  says he wants his perks,  and second user then says the opposite.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: thrila on July 08, 2017, 04:04:37 PM
But i'm getting constant contradicting opinions here,  one user  says he wants his perks,  and second user then says the opposite.

Well, what did you expect?
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: waystin2 on July 08, 2017, 04:30:17 PM
lol

Everyone would start the same if this would be changed,   nuke the current perks  :neener:



and if a new player comes 2 years from now,  that's just how life is,  players in games like War Thunder and World of Tanks have to play vs level 5 tanks in level 2
  The horse is beyond dead, the bones are dust, and now you are pounding a hole into the ground where it's carcass used to be.  Skuzzy gave you the opportunity to try your RPS ideas that we all told you have been attempted and failed.  You declined to do so.  (http://gifimage.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/beating-a-dead-horse-gif-5.gif)
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Spikes on July 08, 2017, 04:30:50 PM
That will be an 'adverse" effect by the way.
That was my concern as well, but was hoping with a nominal price of 1 or 2, it is still easily obtainable by everyone but it makes someone think twice before spamming it.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Lusche on July 08, 2017, 05:32:18 PM
In my subjective opinion, the performance differences  between individual tanks (notably armor & penetration) have a somewhat bigger impact on the results then those between the planes.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Zygote404 on July 08, 2017, 07:35:06 PM
The idea of light perks on the 5ENY aircraft is interesting. The light perks on GVs I think are kind of a little deterrent to not spam them like crazy, even though many have tons of GV perks.

The beauty of this game is that you can basically fly whatever you want whenever you want. Perking something as iconic as the P-51D might have an adverse affect even if it's minimum is 1 and maximum is 2, just because someone wants to get in and fly it right away. In the same sense, it is easy enough to get 1 or 2 perks to be able to fly a P-51D.
Not sure if it could be called "beauty" though.  You can up some of the mid war planes or even early war planes but you will be slaughtered very quickly.   Except for a few very good and long term players you cannot really fly them in the MA unless you consider flying them spiraling down in a flaming heap as soon as you meet the average plane in the MA.

Light perking of late war planes would be a good way to balance the MA as currently its almost exclusively Ya3, Spit 16, F4U-1A, KI84, P51D etc etc.  Some of these planes being so rare in WWII (KI84 as an example) very likely no players ever even heard of them before AH1.

The other issue is the disparity between some of the planes - Tiffie Eny 10, TA 152 Eny 10, Yak3 Eny 18... very odd
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Zimme83 on July 08, 2017, 07:57:18 PM
3.500 Ki-84:s were built, if you havent Heard of them you haven't done your homework..
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: hgtonyvi on July 08, 2017, 11:42:55 PM
I think HTC should perk the planes oboe listed. What were they?? P51d,190d, spit16, la7, p47M....I think this will make it more interesting and more intense. What else is there to do with your perks? Spend em!! More variety of planes will be seen in the MA by doing this.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: BowHTR on July 09, 2017, 08:46:25 AM
Not sure if it could be called "beauty" though.  You can up some of the mid war planes or even early war planes but you will be slaughtered very quickly.   Except for a few very good and long term players you cannot really fly them in the MA unless you consider flying them spiraling down in a flaming heap as soon as you meet the average plane in the MA.

Light perking of late war planes would be a good way to balance the MA as currently its almost exclusively Ya3, Spit 16, F4U-1A, KI84, P51D etc etc.  Some of these planes being so rare in WWII (KI84 as an example) very likely no players ever even heard of them before AH1.

The other issue is the disparity between some of the planes - Tiffie Eny 10, TA 152 Eny 10, Yak3 Eny 18... very odd

Used to be perked.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: bozon on July 09, 2017, 11:09:45 AM
So what you want is to force newbies to fly only I-16 and P-40 while the pros can meet them in Tempests and 4-hogs...
Most vets that can afford several tours of nothing but 262 without a single landing do not fly these planes. It's not due to lack of perks.

Those that do (on a regular basis) are real handful.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: bozon on July 09, 2017, 11:15:18 AM
What light perking of some models can achieve is to make 2nd-best variants flown more. The LA5 is one hell of a fighter, but it is a hangar queen because the even better LA7 (and it its rare 3 cannon configuration) is freely available.

P51B - same story. Older F4u, P47D, 190A5, 109G2/6... etc.

Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Zygote404 on July 09, 2017, 12:27:48 PM
Used to be perked.
It was perked but not sure why.  Its not a great fighter at AH alts.   Certainly against the 190D its outclassed, vs the Yak3, Spit 16, F4U1D etc its toast.   This is why you see 190D's and not TA 152's flying around.     
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: atlau on July 09, 2017, 12:29:53 PM
What light perking of some models can achieve is to make 2nd-best variants flown more. The LA5 is one hell of a fighter, but it is a hangar queen because the even better LA7 (and it its rare 3 cannon configuration) is freely available.

P51B - same story. Older F4u, P47D, 190A5, 109G2/6... etc.

That brings us back to the old request to have the 3-gun La7 perked.... which actually isn't a bad idea. Would you advocate making the 6-gun P-51 and the 6-gun P47M perked too?

I do think the ENY/Perks could be tweaked slightly based on usage to create more variety.  I'm sure Snailman has a stat comparing usage/ENY :))
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Zygote404 on July 09, 2017, 01:12:52 PM
What light perking of some models can achieve is to make 2nd-best variants flown more. The LA5 is one hell of a fighter, but it is a hangar queen because the even better LA7 (and it its rare 3 cannon configuration) is freely available.

P51B - same story. Older F4u, P47D, 190A5, 109G2/6... etc.
Yeah its not about forcing people to fly crap planes.  A lightly perked Spit16 doesn't stop people flying Spit 16's it just discourages the "why fly a Spit 9 when I can jump in a 16" or "why fly a Yak9U when I can jump in a Yak 3".  The majority will always jump in the best free plane available.

Both the 9U and Spit 9 are awesome planes - no one loses out.  There are simply more options, Perk, Non-Perk versions.  A larger functional plane set.    Only good for the game.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: lunatic1 on July 10, 2017, 10:40:43 AM
I'm guessing and i'm not guessing. If HTC wanted everyone to fly one plane, he would create one plane,  but Aces High has over 50 planes - fact.

If the top dogs fly the 'one' plane, then naturaly the worse player HAS to take the 'one' plane to be able to compete vs them.

If Aces High has over 50 planes, but everyone is flying one plane to stay competetive vs other players, something is not correct.


that's just it  not every one fly's the same plane, and most planes can be used for certain things. I don't fly the same plane all day every day that would be boring.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Zygote404 on July 11, 2017, 09:09:55 PM
Not everyone flies the same plane but almost everyone flies one of a small set of the best unperked and perked planes.  If you have 50 planes and people are only flying 10 you only have practically 10 planes in the game.

I try to fly terrible planes but often feel required to fly Spits,  although usually 9, not 16, La5, KI 84 etc because any early / mid war can't compete against experienced pilots flying the small late war set that is almost always chosen.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: The Fugitive on July 11, 2017, 09:29:06 PM
It could be due to the lack of GVs. With more planes it would make sense that there would be some disparity.

Not everyone flies the same plane but almost everyone flies one of a small set of the best unperked and perked planes.  If you have 50 planes and people are only flying 10 you only have practically 10 planes in the game.

I try to fly terrible planes but often feel required to fly Spits,  although usually 9, not 16, La5, KI 84 etc because any early / mid war can't compete against experienced pilots flying the small late war set that is almost always chosen.

I wish more players would fly the early/mid war planes. I fly the 47M more often than not, but my favorite is the P47-25, and the 11 is a blast. I hate upping ANY spit as they are all easy mode to me, the same with LA's. Why bother? At least the jugs only have 50's for what it is worth with the 50's we seem to have  :noid but jumping in a dweeb ride is not really an option.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Shuffler on July 12, 2017, 09:59:13 AM
I have over 50000 perks. I just rarely fly anything perked.
I'm in my PJ 99.5% of the time.

If you want to have the most fun, learn to fly a MW plane in LW.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: SlipKnt on July 12, 2017, 10:10:27 AM

If you want to have the most fun, learn to fly a MW plane in LW.

AMEN!!! 
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: lunatic1 on July 12, 2017, 11:00:49 AM
Not sure if it could be called "beauty" though.  You can up some of the mid war planes or even early war planes but you will be slaughtered very quickly.   Except for a few very good and long term players you cannot really fly them in the MA unless you consider flying them spiraling down in a flaming heap as soon as you meet the average plane in the MA.

says who, early and mid war planes do very well here. you can't just rely of just the plane to win, learn your ACM's, the only ACM I know is the Split S and I do well. call for help if your in a bad situation. pilots don't live by planes alone
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: lunatic1 on July 12, 2017, 11:03:26 AM
What light perking of some models can achieve is to make 2nd-best variants flown more. The LA5 is one hell of a fighter, but it is a hangar queen because the even better LA7 (and it its rare 3 cannon configuration) is freely available.

P51B - same story. Older F4u, P47D, 190A5, 109G2/6... etc.
I don't know where your flying Bozon but the LA-5 is no hanger queen.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: lunatic1 on July 12, 2017, 11:08:18 AM
What light perking of some models can achieve is to make 2nd-best variants flown more. The LA5 is one hell of a fighter, but it is a hangar queen because the even better LA7 (and it its rare 3 cannon configuration) is freely available.

P51B - same story. Older F4u, P47D, 190A5, 109G2/6... etc.

just read the rest of your post--wow man, are you a gv'er? all the planes you have listed here are flown everyday, and by more than 1 person.
all of these planes are 2nd line favorites to most pilots. just wow, where have you been?
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: lunatic1 on July 12, 2017, 11:16:46 AM
Yeah its not about forcing people to fly crap planes.  A lightly perked Spit16 doesn't stop people flying Spit 16's it just discourages the "why fly a Spit 9 when I can jump in a 16" or "why fly a Yak9U when I can jump in a Yak 3".  The majority will always jump in the best free plane available.

Both the 9U and Spit 9 are awesome planes - no one loses out.  There are simply more options, Perk, Non-Perk versions.  A larger functional plane set.    Only good for the game.
A spit9 is every bit as good as a Spit 16 only 2 real differences Spit 16 is faster and carries 2 20mm and 2 .50 cal Spit 9 2-20mm and 4 .303 both same cannon ammo load 240 rds per cannon but Spit 16 can carry 3 bombs

only 2 planes that may need to be perked is Yak-3 and P47-M-perk them the same as the other perked planes- except of course the 262 and 163
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Vinkman on July 12, 2017, 01:20:11 PM
In my subjective opinion, the performance differences  between individual tanks (notably armor & penetration) have a somewhat bigger impact on the results then those between the planes.

I nver feel comfortable disagreeing with Lusche butI think tanks are all two similar in that 2 hits will kill any tank. It's not like a TigerII can take 40 hits from other tanks. Perk tanks out in the field can be killed quite easily by free tanks, and very easily by bomb tards.

There a good chance your 262 is in no danger from anything [including GVs] in the arena if you fly it properly. It's 4 30mm cannons are nothing short of devastating and it carries something like 450 rounds of ammo [the awesome K4 carries 65 rounds in 1 gun by comparison]. 

A TigerII is no match for a bomb dropping aircraft. It's also very vulnerable to other tanks. A good shot in an un-perked tank can kill a TigerII with two or even 1 hit. So the tank's superiority in on-paper specs doesn't translate into easy dominance in the arena. That's why more TigerIIs are found sitting on the tarmac where they can land at the first sign of damage without losing their perks. If perk tanks required large numbers of perks, they would become too rare, because the risk/reward is too small.  :salute

Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 13, 2017, 01:13:09 AM
Quote
because any early / mid war can't compete against experienced pilots flying the small late war set that is almost always chosen

true
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: save on July 13, 2017, 02:20:51 AM
Some planes are flown because of ENY restriction, some because old hand's like their odd  plane, and some because the challenge of flying a high-ENY plane VS the uber-planes.

I do not agree with Bozon on the La-5 and Fw190A5 hangar queen issue, what they cannot do is to force the enemy to fight due  slower max speed - the faster enemy can choose to fight or not.

If you normally fly the A8, the A5 feels cheating good, if you don't want to molest bombers that is, and the A5 K/D confirms that.

The only way to solve the disparity is to perk the pilot.

For Bozon, this means - No Hispano's in his Mossie, and only one engine working  :D


just read the rest of your post--wow man, are you a gv'er? all the planes you have listed here are flown everyday, and by more than 1 person.
all of these planes are 2nd line favorites to most pilots. just wow, where have you been?
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: save on July 13, 2017, 02:27:18 AM
TA-152 flight model have been updated over the years, it used to be one of the best plane we had.

Flying the TA152 @ 35k you know why it was perked for so long


It was perked but not sure why.  Its not a great fighter at AH alts.   Certainly against the 190D its outclassed, vs the Yak3, Spit 16, F4U1D etc its toast.   This is why you see 190D's and not TA 152's flying around.   
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: bozon on July 13, 2017, 03:03:21 AM
just read the rest of your post--wow man, are you a gv'er? all the planes you have listed here are flown everyday, and by more than 1 person.
all of these planes are 2nd line favorites to most pilots. just wow, where have you been?
Hangar queen does not mean P39D or P40C level queeness. Players go crazy when P51D and La7 get ENY locked. The prefer to logout while the P51B and La5 are just sitting there. 109G14 and G2 are superb, yet it is pretty much safe to assume that every 109 you meet is a K4. The only reason that G14 sometimes makes an appearance is that someone really likes 109s but cant handle the tatter gun.

If you see an La5 it is safe to assume that it is flown by a vetran and I know to fear them more than any La7. The La5 by the way  is ENY 30, which is crazy and makes it the best perk farmer by a great margin, but it is still a rare plane in the arena.

I do not agree with Bozon
How dare you!  :furious

Quote
For Bozon, this means - No Hispano's in his Mossie, and only one engine working  :D
It is a conspiracy so your 190a8 will almost be able to keep up with me in a climb  :noid
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Vinkman on July 13, 2017, 07:19:39 AM
... it is pretty much safe to assume that every 109 you meet is a K4. The only reason that G14 sometimes makes an appearance is that someone really likes 109s but can't handle the tatter gun.

Lusche do you have the numbers?  I'd might wager that most 109s are not the K4 by pilot.  Most are G models with the 20mm. I see a lot of G6s out there. and quite a few Fs, with the occasional E model. 
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: save on July 13, 2017, 08:45:37 AM
All LD pilots know the A8 stall speed is 350mph, and over 360mph it does accelerated stall instead.

Mossie otoh always seem to leave some wood to grow when they fly close to 400mph with one or 2 or more engines.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Lusche on July 13, 2017, 09:03:22 AM
Lusche do you have the numbers?  I'd might wager that most 109s are not the K4 by pilot.  Most are G models with the 20mm. I see a lot of G6s out there. and quite a few Fs, with the occasional E model.


1st quarter 2017, Bf 109 air-to-air kills+deaths:

109E         377 = 1.4%
109F       2799 = 10.7%
109G-2   2669 = 10.2%
109G-6   3211 = 12.3%
109G-14 5627 = 21.5%
109K     11470 = 43.9%
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: atlau on July 13, 2017, 09:59:16 AM
Total g = k4? Interesting
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Zoney on July 13, 2017, 10:40:51 AM
It was perked but not sure why.  Its not a great fighter at AH alts.   Certainly against the 190D its outclassed, vs the Yak3, Spit 16, F4U1D etc its toast.   This is why you see 190D's and not TA 152's flying around.   

No, that's not why.

The TA152 is much harder to master.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Vinkman on July 13, 2017, 10:55:09 AM

1st quarter 2017, Bf 109 air-to-air kills+deaths:

109E         377 = 1.4%
109F       2799 = 10.7%
109G-2   2669 = 10.2%
109G-6   3211 = 12.3%
109G-14 5627 = 21.5%
109K     11470 = 43.9%

Thanks Lusche. As we say here in Detroit....You the man!  :salute
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 13, 2017, 12:37:39 PM
See, that is the proof that no matter what other 'claim' to be, the truth is only one.

Late war planes are used the most, because they are 'the best', and if people use 'the best' plane, other have to fly a late war plane also so they have a chance.


Total number of 109 g2 + g6 + g14 = k4


109E early war plane 377 1,4%   lol



Making planes cost perks will solve this, because then everyone has to go through  early --> mid --> late planes.

And if someone say ' oh vets will be killing newbs in spit 1 with a 262', yes but the number of late war planes will be much lower than it is currently, you will not be seeing them constantly.

Make the planes cost perks by their performance and how much people use them.

The most used planes should cost the most, because it means they tend to be 'the best'.


example:

109E         377 = 1.4%     = 0 points
109F       2799 = 10.7%    =  10
109G-2   2669 = 10.2%      =   18
109G-6   3211 = 12.3%       =    26
109G-14 5627 = 21.5%        =  46
109K     11470 = 43.9%          =  100


etc
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Zoney on July 13, 2017, 12:58:29 PM

Making planes cost perks will solve this, because then everyone has to go through  early --> mid --> late planes

There is nothing to solve. 
You fly what you want and I will fly what I want. 
You have reasons to fly what you want and I have reasons to fly what I want.

This is the "Melee" arena we are talking about.

If you want to match up with like planes then you should:

1.) Open an account
2.) Find a squad that will let you join them
3.) Fly in FSO's or other special events like the 12 hour BOB coming up next
     month

Once you have flown in these Events, i think you will find as most of us do, that your suggestions on how the Melee arena is run is simply without merit in my opinion..


Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 13, 2017, 01:00:46 PM
You fly what you want and I will fly what I want. 


You are making me fly a late war plane, because if you are in a late war plane,  then I have to take a late war plane also or otherwise i don't have a chance.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Vinkman on July 13, 2017, 01:02:52 PM
See, that is the proof that no matter what other 'claim' to be, the truth is only one.

Late war planes are used the most, because they are 'the best', and if people use 'the best' plane, other have to fly a late war plane also so they have a chance.


Total number of 109 g2 + g6 + g14 = k4


109E early war plane 377 1,4%   lol



Making planes cost perks will solve this, because then everyone has to go through  early --> mid --> late planes.

And if someone say ' oh vets will be killing newbs in spit 1 with a 262', yes but the number of late war planes will be much lower than it is currently, you will not be seeing them constantly.

Make the planes cost perks by their performance and how much people use them.

The most used planes should cost the most, because it means they tend to be 'the best'.


example:

109E         377 = 1.4%     = 0 points
109F       2799 = 10.7%    =  10
109G-2   2669 = 10.2%      =   18
109G-6   3211 = 12.3%       =    26
109G-14 5627 = 21.5%        =  46
109K     11470 = 43.9%          =  100


etc


Why is it better if people use older less capable planes?  Why would you want to force that?   
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: DmonSlyr on July 13, 2017, 01:03:29 PM
I too, wish that more late war planes were perked initially. It would really keep a lot of boring game play from occurring. Most of the late war planes are the reason why running and ganging has become so prevalent in an un-fun way. You take the time to fly to a base in a more challenging plane, then you got like 5 LA7s/yak3s rolling to get insta 6K alt with 350 speed, to catch any and everything that has approached after it dives. Too many 190Ds flying around 15k running away from any sort of loss advantage. P51Ds do the same thing, but the 50s do really feel weak. More people in midwar planes will create better furballs and more actionable fights. That's the bottom line. 
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 13, 2017, 01:04:24 PM
Why is it better if people use older less capable planes?  Why would you want to force that?


Bigger variety for gameplay.

bigger variety = people less bored

people bored less = more people play
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: BowHTR on July 13, 2017, 01:12:56 PM
You are making me fly a late war plane, because if you are in a late war plane,  then I have to take a late war plane also or otherwise i don't have a chance.

 :rofl
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: TWCAxew on July 13, 2017, 01:28:26 PM
This used to be called the Late War Arena  :huh

Lightly perked planes would be fun (1-2)perkies or the gun packages but not 100 perks for a k4 this will mean people will be force to play days upon days to fly a certain plane an than lose it in 10 minutes. I already see the rage quits
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Lazerr on July 13, 2017, 01:39:02 PM
I would say perk the planes by the number of kills they earn monthly, to help even the usage of the planeset a little.  Maybe change it quarterly?

The perk value on these handful of planes should remain under 10 IMO.

P51/jug at 5 points,  ufos like yak3s spit16s and la7s at ten.

Keep in mind that number would fluctuate with ENY.

Take a look at the list.. its a little out of whack.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 13, 2017, 02:54:37 PM
Take a look at the list.. its a little out of whack.

Especialy the p40's   0,03%
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Zygote404 on July 13, 2017, 07:41:55 PM
No, that's not why.

The TA152 is much harder to master.
No its a huge target, it takes 15 minutes to accelerate to full speed at its best alt of 45k.  It weighs a ton.  Its not as fast as D9. 

It's a high alt plane in a low alt arena.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Mongoose on July 13, 2017, 09:01:23 PM
Making planes cost perks will solve this, because then everyone has to go through  early --> mid --> late planes.

I was asked by a friend to try out another game, so we could play together.  I took a look and decided not to play that other game precisely because they use an advancement system like you suggest. 

The purpose of the perk system is to limit certain airplanes because of their capabilities, not because of their popularity.  The game is not broken.  Stop trying to fix it.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: atlau on July 13, 2017, 09:05:57 PM
Most people choose planes bases on their capabilities. How many people loved the La7 before they played AH?
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Zimme83 on July 13, 2017, 09:33:18 PM
Problem is that people do not want to use the less capable planes because that would make it harder for them to kill other players, and they dont want to learn how to do either.

People simply wants to have the fish in the smallest pond and shoot them with the biggest gun available, and any attempt to restrict them from doing it will make them go bananas..
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 14, 2017, 01:45:19 AM
Quote
The purpose of the perk system is to limit certain airplanes because of their capabilities, not because of their popularity

Exactly, and late war planes are more capable than early war planes.
You just confirmed this yourself.


Them being more capable, leads them to being more popular.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: TWCAxew on July 14, 2017, 05:45:05 AM
But nuggie why not subscribe and fly with us tonight in FSO. I don't think you have ever seen that side of the game. I really think you should before pushing things like these on the MA (Late War Arena). Or come join us at the Hardest Day event (battle of britain).

I don't think the MA needs a massive perk overhaul, like i stated before i think it would be fun for certain gun packages but that's it(1-3 max). I also don't think it will level the playing field for newer players or lesser players. On the contrary.. i think it will harm there experience. When i started playing 8 years ago i had to fight all these (in my opinion back then) elite guys. And getting 1 or 2 perks took me weeks i know the struggle nuggie. Now i consider myself pretty good, some of my opponents will probably not agree haha. What i am trying to say here to get where i am it takes months if not years. And this system will only make it harder for newer players because i will still fly a 262 if i feel like it or a pony because i am capable if farming perks fast. New players are not. It will frustrated them. Even when i fly a crap plane i will smack them down just like thrilla did to me the other day in his hurri 1 while i was flying a tempest.

I like your ideas nuggie but dont force them trough. If HT thinks its a good idea he will do it if not he wont.

The offer still stands for FSO and the Hardest day. :salute

DutchVII
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Vinkman on July 14, 2017, 07:43:26 AM

Bigger variety for gameplay.

bigger variety = people less bored

people bored less = more people play

Sorry, but none of these are valid conclusions.  :salute

Hey how about if when you go to McDonalds or Taco bell, the guy at the counter tells you what you're having instead of letting you choose so that he can increase the variety of what's eaten?

Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: atlau on July 14, 2017, 10:15:57 AM
Sorry, but none of these are valid conclusions.  :salute

Hey how about if when you go to McDonalds or Taco bell, the guy at the counter tells you what you're having instead of letting you choose so that he can increase the variety of what's eaten?

They cant force you to eat anything but they can adjust the price
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: popeye on July 14, 2017, 11:20:35 AM
They cant force you to eat anything but they can adjust the price

Or, they can refuse to sell you the Supreme Burger until you have eaten six Mini Burgers without throwing up.   :D
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 15, 2017, 01:43:20 AM
Hey how about if when you go to McDonalds or Taco bell, the guy at the counter tells you what you're having instead of letting you choose so that he can increase the variety of what's eaten?

They do that.

When you buy a burger meal they always ask you do you want an XL or XXL sized everything? and you pay more for it.

Currently AH gives you XXL everything, I know most of guys here are Americans and Americans love their XXL everything (no offense guys!), but XXL everything is not good for long term health  :D

That is why player base is shrinking, the effect of XXL everything is taking its toll.


Sometimes having less is more, having people play from 'the start' gives a sense of progression, it makes new players learn the game from the ropes in planes which are dogfighters and dogfighting is what new players always do.

A new player in a p51 or p47 will do even worse than in a spit 1 or a6m2 because he will be doing hard and tight turns in them, if a new player has a choice of picking a p51 or a spit 1, he will always be going for p51 because in his mind it is 'the better' plane or the 'iconic' plane.


Having all planes available at all times for everyone is actualy hurting the game, and i'm not talking about it from a perspective of a few players who are currently playing and defending it.
I'm talking from a perspective of hundreds of players who are not playing.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Ack-Ack on July 15, 2017, 02:21:05 AM
Exactly, and late war planes are more capable than early war planes.
You just confirmed this yourself.


Them being more capable, leads them to being more popular.

Planes and vehicles are perked on whether or not they unbalance the game play. 
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 15, 2017, 02:42:48 AM
Planes and vehicles are perked on whether or not they unbalance the game play.

So why only a handfull of planes cost points to fly them?
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Ack-Ack on July 15, 2017, 03:25:10 AM
So why only a handfull of planes cost points to fly them?

Because only a handful of planes left unperked would unbalance the game play.

From the HTC website.
Quote
The perk system is a way for HTC to introduce some interesting but otherwise unbalancing planes on a limited basis but the benefits go deeper than that. Perk planes (and vehicles) would be things like Me 262s, Ta 152s, Tempests, B-29s, Ar 234s, Tiger IIs, etc. These are interesting rides but would be very unbalancing if they were available on an unlimited basis. So there won't be unlimited availability but they'll be available as bonuses or perks.

http://www.hitechcreations.com/features/perk-points
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: TWCAxew on July 15, 2017, 03:32:16 AM
you totally ignored me nugget....

the ma is just a small part of AH...

again come join us in the special events.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Vinkman on July 15, 2017, 05:30:15 AM
They do that.

When you buy a burger meal they always ask you do you want an XL or XXL sized everything? and you pay more for it.

Currently AH gives you XXL everything, I know most of guys here are Americans and Americans love their XXL everything (no offense guys!), but XXL everything is not good for long term health  :D

That is why player base is shrinking, the effect of XXL everything is taking its toll.


Sometimes having less is more, having people play from 'the start' gives a sense of progression, it makes new players learn the game from the ropes in planes which are dogfighters and dogfighting is what new players always do.

A new player in a p51 or p47 will do even worse than in a spit 1 or a6m2 because he will be doing hard and tight turns in them, if a new player has a choice of picking a p51 or a spit 1, he will always be going for p51 because in his mind it is 'the better' plane or the 'iconic' plane.


Having all planes available at all times for everyone is actualy hurting the game, and i'm not talking about it from a perspective of a few players who are currently playing and defending it.
I'm talking from a perspective of hundreds of players who are not playing.

I'd tried to help but you just don't get it.  :salute
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: bozon on July 15, 2017, 07:38:40 AM
So why only a handfull of planes cost points to fly them?
Just a correction for the record since this is a common misconception. Flying planes does not cost you any perks - it costs perks to die in one.
You do however must own enough perks to deposit them before takeoff as a down payment in case you die.

Also, another clarification - when talking about perked late war fighters (that are not currently perked) or perked ordnance, or perked bomber drones, we are talking about single digit perk tags, and more in the scale of 1-3 perks. This does not really prevent anyone from rolling a 2 perk points fighter for several sorties, but occasionally, a sortie in a higher ENY plane will be needed in order to accumulate a few points.

JABO also gives perk points btw. It will probably be wise to give some second rank attack planes a high OBJ value (besides ENY) to make them attractive perk farmers in the attack role.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Zygote404 on July 15, 2017, 09:27:38 PM
They do that.

When you buy a burger meal they always ask you do you want an XL or XXL sized everything? and you pay more for it.

Currently AH gives you XXL everything, I know most of guys here are Americans and Americans love their XXL everything (no offense guys!), but XXL everything is not good for long term health  :D

That is why player base is shrinking, the effect of XXL everything is taking its toll.


Sometimes having less is more, having people play from 'the start' gives a sense of progression, it makes new players learn the game from the ropes in planes which are dogfighters and dogfighting is what new players always do.

A new player in a p51 or p47 will do even worse than in a spit 1 or a6m2 because he will be doing hard and tight turns in them, if a new player has a choice of picking a p51 or a spit 1, he will always be going for p51 because in his mind it is 'the better' plane or the 'iconic' plane.


Having all planes available at all times for everyone is actualy hurting the game, and i'm not talking about it from a perspective of a few players who are currently playing and defending it.
I'm talking from a perspective of hundreds of players who are not playing.
Good post.

And its not about restricting P51s or Spits Or Yaks, its about opening up the OTHER P51's, Spits and Yaks to be viable rides and opponents. 

And given everyone will be in the same position the net position is equal but with more variety.

Will vets be slaughtering newbs because they have a million perks? Vets can slaughter newbs irrespective of plane they're flying.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 16, 2017, 01:56:53 AM
you totally ignored me nugget....

the ma is just a small part of AH...

again come join us in the special events.

I did not, but it's not so easy to reply to everyone, especialy when i'm 'the target' even though other people are also advocating for those ideas lol !


The 'MA' is no longer the 'late war' arena because there is no early war and mid war arena, so it cannot be called late war arena also.  It can be called the 'main arena' because it's always where the biggest number of players play, and if a new player would come he would instantly go there, because there are always the biggest numbers, and what is in that arena would be an indicative for him of what is Aces High.

I know there are different arenas and different ways to play, but a new player comes for the massive multiplayer aspect of AH, and he sees the most people playing there so he goes there. So the ' main arena'  is what makes or brakes Aces High for the new player.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Vinkman on July 17, 2017, 07:54:46 AM
Good post.

And its not about restricting P51s or Spits Or Yaks, its about opening up the OTHER P51's, Spits and Yaks to be viable rides and opponents. 

And given everyone will be in the same position the net position is equal but with more variety.

Will vets be slaughtering newbs because they have a million perks? Vets can slaughter newbs irrespective of plane they're flying.

the differential match ups make fighting interesting. NOT everyone being in the same plane.  But by all means keep thinking you know what choices people should be making and pass rules that restrict their choices to fit your perception of how things work.  Hey wait...are you Nancy Pelosi?
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 17, 2017, 08:13:52 AM
But by all means keep thinking you know what choices people should be making

We are not telling what choices to make, we draw conclusions from the choices people make.

And the conclusion is that people with 'the choice'  fly late war planes in majority.


P-51D         4396

Spitfire Mk XVI         4192

190D-9         3898

Ki-84-Ia         3090




109E-2         87

Spitfire Mk V         180
 
I-16         110

P-39Q         90

P-40E         19


Facts do not lie, numbers do not lie, if you argue about what I posted, you basicaly argue against the current reality of Aces High.


Quote
the differential match ups make fighting interesting. NOT everyone being in the same plane.

Yes and we want a lot of variety........ what you are saying is happening now, everyone being in the same 3-4 late war planes.



With perks for planes the numbers would shift.

We would see roughly

50%  early war
30%  mid war
20%  late war

Which would make everything much more interesting, compared to current 90% late war planes.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: The Fugitive on July 17, 2017, 09:28:35 AM
We are not telling what choices to make, we draw conclusions from the choices people make.

And the conclusion is that people with 'the choice'  fly late war planes in majority.


P-51D         4396

Spitfire Mk XVI         4192

190D-9         3898

Ki-84-Ia         3090




109E-2         87

Spitfire Mk V         180
 
I-16         110

P-39Q         90

P-40E         19


Facts do not lie, numbers do not lie, if you argue about what I posted, you basicaly argue against the current reality of Aces High.


Yes and we want a lot of variety........ what you are saying is happening now, everyone being in the same 3-4 late war planes.



With perks for planes the numbers would shift.

We would see roughly

50%  early war
30%  mid war
20%  late war

Which would make everything much more interesting, compared to current 90% late war planes.


.....and that is called "forcing people into other planes".

If players WANT to fly other planes they CAN as it stands now. The numbers show that most don"t want to fly other planes.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Vinkman on July 17, 2017, 09:44:41 AM
We are not telling what choices to make...

Except you will by updating the perk system....

With perks for planes the numbers would shift.

which will force them to choose different planes....

Which would make everything much more interesting, compared to current 90% late war planes.

Which will be better, because you think so. 


You can keep trying to use different words, but you keep saying the same thing. You think forcing people out the planes they want to fly and into planes they are currently choosing not to fly is better.   

Your facts show that 4377 more people want to fly P51s than P40s. But your system would move 2200 people into P40s against their wishes. And you're convinced that will be better for the game and make everyone happy.   You are Nancy Pelosi aren't you?
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 17, 2017, 10:00:12 AM

Your facts show that 4377 more people want to fly P51s than P40s. But your system would move 2200 people into P40s against their wishes. And you're convinced that will be better for the game and make everyone happy.   You are Nancy Pelosi aren't you?

4377 in p51

vs

3000 Spit 1     

1000  spit 9 

377  p51



I know I would enjoy the game more with the 2nd option.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: lunatic1 on July 17, 2017, 10:13:07 AM
When you buy a burger meal they always ask you do you want an XL or XXL sized everything? and you pay more for it.

Currently AH gives you XXL everything, I know most of guys here are Americans and Americans love their XXL everything (no offense guys!), but XXL everything is not good for long term health.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
we pay for XXL because we ask for XXL.. if I go to Dairy Queen I don't want a hunger buster, I want and will pay for the Belt Buster w/cheese. they are not trying to force me to buy the belt or hunger buster it's what I choose.


That is why player base is shrinking, the effect of XXL everything is taking its toll...

You need to make up your mind as to what is causing the player base to shrink..
in almost every past post you have made a claim of what is making player base shrink, each and everyone  different..

you know you yourself could right now be making the player base shrink if it truly was--people come in here and read these post, they might get the idea this game ain't worth playing because you keep putting down the game as it is.
                                 

but I think this thread got hijacked by Nugetx---they is talking about disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: waystin2 on July 17, 2017, 11:15:30 AM
4377 in p51

vs

3000 Spit 1     

1000  spit 9 

377  p51



I know I would enjoy the game more with the 2nd option.
Too bad you already used your free two weeks huh? :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Vinkman on July 17, 2017, 11:36:52 AM
4377 in p51

vs

3000 Spit 1     

1000  spit 9 

377  p51



I know I would enjoy the game more with the 2nd option.

If you were the guy in the P51.  :rofl
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 17, 2017, 11:47:20 AM
I will quote Bustr here

Quote
What are we defending here or, keeping from happening? Hitech does jump on ideas he likes in the Wish List with a personal response as we have seen over the years. And then like the Steam announcement, he has blind sided the community over the years out of the blue. Are we fighting with nugetx to shoot down his ideas or, to keep Hitech from changing the game where we don't want it to go?
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Vinkman on July 17, 2017, 01:13:30 PM
I will quote Bustr here

 -1 I don't like his idea, because it will make more people unhappy, and does not improve game play.

The debate is that he can't explain why forcing people to fly old planes makes the game better. He just keeps repeating that's better. But why is having 20% of the folks in la7s and Mustangs killing the 50% in P-39s and P-40s "better" ?  think about this nonsense. Vet pilots who rack up lots of kills, hence lots of Perk points, will now have an even greater advantage as 80% of the Melee arena pilots will be forced into mid and early war planes.   And this is better game play?  :headscratch: 

There are really only 4  super planes in the game. 262, arodo, B-29, and ME-163. They are heavily perked. Like the TigerII is.


As a category there is no shortage of diversity in the late war planes set, or in their use. So his claim there is a problem that needs to be fixed is "Fake News". There is no problem, hence his idea is not a solution to it. In short, there is no reason that having a uniform distribution of plane use, or a left shifted one, as he proposes, is better for anything.


 
Vinkman  :salute




Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Lazerr on July 17, 2017, 01:19:57 PM
Well lets unperk the chog then  :D
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 17, 2017, 01:21:58 PM
I don't want to force new players into early war plane.

The change to the perk system I'd be interested in trying out is a very light perking of just a few more planes - the same way its done with GVs. - like Oboe said

List of planes for possible light perking:

Spitfire Mk XVI
Ki-84-Ia
La-7
Yak-3
P-38L
P-51D
N1K2
P-47M
F4U-1A
190D-9
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Skuzzy on July 17, 2017, 01:50:10 PM
Trade one set of popular planes for another set is all that it will accomplish.

No matter what you do there is going to be a top ten popular plane set.  Perk this set, and the next set will rise to the top.  What do you do then?  Perk them too?

Arbitrarily perking rides serves no positive purpose.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: SlipKnt on July 17, 2017, 02:26:36 PM


Arbitrarily perking rides serves no positive purpose.


Any chance you could "unperk" the 262???    :pray :devil

Thought I'd ask!
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 17, 2017, 02:34:42 PM


No matter what you do there is going to be a top ten popular plane set.  Perk this set, and the next set will rise to the top.  What do you do then?  Perk them too?



(http://i.imgur.com/rcynKSv.jpg)
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Skuzzy on July 17, 2017, 02:40:43 PM

(http://i.imgur.com/rcynKSv.jpg)

Not going to happen no matter how many times you post this image in how many threads.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 17, 2017, 02:41:30 PM
lol ok :P
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: puller on July 17, 2017, 03:05:51 PM
4377 in p51

vs

3000 Spit 1     

1000  spit 9 

377  p51



I know I would enjoy the game more with the 2nd option.

YOU DONT EVEN PLAY...WTH!!!!!  It will not make it more enjoyable for you because you do not play....WOW...I am in the freaking twilight zone  :bhead
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 17, 2017, 03:06:47 PM
I've posted a few times already that I am waiting for AH on steam.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: puller on July 17, 2017, 03:12:43 PM
I've posted a few times already that I am waiting for AH on steam.


WOW...dude...you already have an account...you can play...for free...it doesn't matter about steam dude...you've already got the game...just because you don't want to pay for it...is why you are not in the Melee arena now...don't try to beat around the bush...you can already play for free...you don't...excuses are lacking from you now...
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 17, 2017, 03:15:20 PM
I can't play in the arena where all of the players play, with Steam i will be able to.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: caldera on July 17, 2017, 03:19:11 PM

(http://i.imgur.com/rcynKSv.jpg)

Looks like you had a random drawing to determine placement in your pyramid.  Some of those are bombers.  And the Spit8 and perked Corsairs in the third tier... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Ack-Ack on July 17, 2017, 03:27:28 PM
We are not telling what choices to make, we draw conclusions from the choices people make.

And the conclusion is that people with 'the choice'  fly late war planes in majority.




No, you are trying to tell people what to fly and when to fly it.  That's been the crux of your wish the entire time, you want people to play how you want them to play and fly what you think they should fly.

None of those late war planes have a negative effect on game play, no reason to perk them.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Ack-Ack on July 17, 2017, 03:29:55 PM
I don't want to force new players into early war plane.

The change to the perk system I'd be interested in trying out is a very light perking of just a few more planes - the same way its done with GVs. - like Oboe said

List of planes for possible light perking:

Spitfire Mk XVI
Ki-84-Ia
La-7
Yak-3
P-38L
P-51D
N1K2
P-47M
F4U-1A
190D-9

LOL!  the P-38L need to be perked?  How does the Lightning unbalance the game play? 
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Mano on July 17, 2017, 03:40:33 PM
Save up your perks, then you can fly any plane you like.  I have been saving vehicle perks for a few years and I can use any gv I like anytime.  I just prefer to use the non perked rides because I enjoy the faster rides and they are great for attacking other bases. If I lose a Tiger II defending a base.....no big deal. I still have tons of perks. I suggest you do the same. If you lose one Me-262 you will still have tons of perks to play with.

<S>

Good luck
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: SlipKnt on July 17, 2017, 04:20:06 PM
LOL!  the P-38L need to be perked?  How does the Lightning unbalance the game play?

I think the P38 should be perked in the hands of Ack-Ack, Shuffler, and Lazer...  Just a request.  Should I put that on the wish list though?  HAHAHAHA

 :rock
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Vinkman on July 17, 2017, 04:46:59 PM

(http://i.imgur.com/rcynKSv.jpg)

the right hand axis is juck thought. % Fun to fight?   It's only ten percent fun to fight a Tempest?  :rofl
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: lunatic1 on July 17, 2017, 06:53:26 PM
We are not telling what choices to make, we draw conclusions from the choices people make.

And the conclusion is that people with 'the choice'  fly late war planes in majority.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SO WHAT!! that's our business not yours.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: lunatic1 on July 17, 2017, 06:56:44 PM

WOW...dude...you already have an account...you can play...for free...it doesn't matter about steam dude...you've already got the game...just because you don't want to pay for it...is why you are not in the Melee arena now...don't try to beat around the bush...you can already play for free...you don't...excuses are lacking from you now...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
he has already burned his Free 2 week trial, so now if he want's to play in the Melee arena, he has to pay.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: lunatic1 on July 17, 2017, 07:00:28 PM
I think the P38 should be perked in the hands of Ack-Ack, Shuffler, and Lazer...  Just a request.  Should I put that on the wish list though?  HAHAHAHA

 :rock

lol
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Chris79 on July 17, 2017, 07:08:43 PM
Think of it like this, you use EZ mode AC to unlock more fun AC. The higher the ENY of a particular plane the more rewarding it becomes to land kills. Example, landing 4 kills in Lgay mehh, land 4 kills in a 110c is fun.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: puller on July 17, 2017, 07:10:44 PM
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
he has already burned his Free 2 week trial, so now if he want's to play in the Melee arena, he has to pay.

Free arenas and customs
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: DmonSlyr on July 17, 2017, 07:59:04 PM
No, you are trying to tell people what to fly and when to fly it.  That's been the crux of your wish the entire time, you want people to play how you want them to play and fly what you think they should fly.

None of those late war planes have a negative effect on game play, no reason to perk them.

It all comes down to that arguement by many of you guys. But not in this case.  some cases, yes, he wants to change the game in many ways, which I certainly don't want. But in this case, I think he is right about the overall idea of making more late war planes perked. I think some late war planes do unbalance the game play and make the game not as fun. For example, if you were in an arena with only jets, the fight would be a lot slower. There wouldn't be as many close quarter furballs and everything would be spread out in the sky. This is not as intense in most cases. With WW2 planes, the fights are close quarters and more actionable or intense. The WW1 arena is like a furball on steroids, which is exciting! So when you look at specific planes in the WW2 genre that were built closest to the end of the war, they will be very fast, and very agile, thus drawing out the fights and making them slower (ie, run away, dive away, fly at 25K, always go 360 or faster and scurry away at any lost advantage) this drives players nuts. They don't want to fly in these types of planes, but they have to escape the hoards of La7s, Yak3s and 190Ds who chase them down every time. It gets old. You see an arena filled with late war monster planes with people who are too affraid to get down and dirty, so they fly the fastest planes at the highest alt and pick all day.

With less of these planes, you will see more furballs, more people actually fighting, lower alt fights, faster furballs, and more balanced fights overall. If people like me always flew 190Ds and LA7s, it would unbalance the game. People like skyyr got 1/3 the kills of AH in the damn planes.. Maybe if the plane was perked, people wouldn't choose it as much, and therefore would make fights quicker by putting them in planes they can't simple run in.. and make the gameplay dull.

And if you have 12,000 perks, and fly a 190D or p51D, are you really going to B and complain and quit the game about having to spend 5 perks? Gimme a break.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Petey on July 17, 2017, 08:48:14 PM
perk the Stuka..... wait wrong thread  :devil
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Zygote404 on July 18, 2017, 12:12:14 AM
It all comes down to that arguement by many of you guys. But not in this case.  some cases, yes, he wants to change the game in many ways, which I certainly don't want. But in this case, I think he is right about the overall idea of making more late war planes perked. I think some late war planes do unbalance the game play and make the game not as fun. For example, if you were in an arena with only jets, the fight would be a lot slower. There wouldn't be as many close quarter furballs and everything would be spread out in the sky. This is not as intense in most cases. With WW2 planes, the fights are close quarters and more actionable or intense. The WW1 arena is like a furball on steroids, which is exciting! So when you look at specific planes in the WW2 genre that were built closest to the end of the war, they will be very fast, and very agile, thus drawing out the fights and making them slower (ie, run away, dive away, fly at 25K, always go 360 or faster and scurry away at any lost advantage) this drives players nuts. They don't want to fly in these types of planes, but they have to escape the hoards of La7s, Yak3s and 190Ds who chase them down every time. It gets old. You see an arena filled with late war monster planes with people who are too affraid to get down and dirty, so they fly the fastest planes at the highest alt and pick all day.

With less of these planes, you will see more furballs, more people actually fighting, lower alt fights, faster furballs, and more balanced fights overall. If people like me always flew 190Ds and LA7s, it would unbalance the game. People like skyyr got 1/3 the kills of AH in the damn planes.. Maybe if the plane was perked, people wouldn't choose it as much, and therefore would make fights quicker by putting them in planes they can't simple run in.. and make the gameplay dull.

And if you have 12,000 perks, and fly a 190D or p51D, are you really going to B and complain and quit the game about having to spend 5 perks? Gimme a break.
I agree with this but I'd add that its also the overall multi-ability of late war planes that cause problems.  Take the Yak3.  If you fly a Spit 9 you make a trade off on speed in exchange for E holding and turn rate.  If you fly a Yak3 however you can turn with a Spit 9, climb with a Spit 9, accelerate with a Spit 9, dive with a Spit 9 and its trade off is that its much slower than a Spit 9? NO.  Its way way faster up to 20k.   

Both planes are free so why would you fly a Spit 9?  Also note that the Yak3 is only 2 ENY less at 18 than the Spit 9 at 20? Doesn't make much sense.

Compare the Yak3 with the Yak9U, Yak9T etc and you'll see the same thing.   

Even worse than that is the Ki84 and the Ta152. 

KI vs TA at normal AH alts
Speed (slight advantage TA)
Climb (medium advantage KI)
Turn (huge advantage KI)
Acceleration (huge advantage KI)
Turn Radius (huge advantage KI)
Lethality (huge advantage TA)

Makes no sense at all.   At the very least a rethink of the ENY values need to be considered.  I can up a KI and get kills easily just flying around at low alt pouncing on stuff farming perks with my 20 eny rating or up a TA, take 10 minutes grabbing alt and then work very hard to get kills with my 10 eny rating.   
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: bozon on July 18, 2017, 03:51:50 AM
Relative ENY values are next to meaningless, since there is very little to spend perk points on. The more things that get a perk tag, the more important ENY becomes.

I happen to fly mostly high ENY planes, but that makes 0 difference to me. The points just keep piling up faster than they would have had I flew the best fighters.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Lusche on July 18, 2017, 05:14:34 AM
Relative ENY values are next to meaningless, since there is very little to spend perk points on.

I never had a problem draining my fighter perks...  :noid
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Zygote404 on July 18, 2017, 05:27:32 AM
Relative ENY values are next to meaningless, since there is very little to spend perk points on. The more things that get a perk tag, the more important ENY becomes.

I happen to fly mostly high ENY planes, but that makes 0 difference to me. The points just keep piling up faster than they would have had I flew the best fighters.
But when numbers are skewed in someone's favour, they can still up some of the best planes because the ENY values are out of whack.

Much rather fight 3 tiffies (10) than 3 KI or Yak3 (18).
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Lusche on July 18, 2017, 05:48:24 AM
Makes no sense at all.   At the very least a rethink of the ENY values need to be considered.  I can up a KI and get kills easily just flying around at low alt pouncing on stuff farming perks with my 20 eny rating or up a TA, take 10 minutes grabbing alt and then work very hard to get kills with my 10 eny rating.   

I had flown both quite a lot in my time. And just for 'getting a lot of kills' without any secondary consideration I would always have chosen the TA. Devastating armament & ample firing time made getting lots of kills more easy for me than in the Ki-84.

That's how different personal experience can be :)
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 18, 2017, 07:56:53 AM
It all comes down to that arguement by many of you guys. But not in this case.  some cases, yes, he wants to change the game in many ways, which I certainly don't want. But in this case, I think he is right about the overall idea of making more late war planes perked. I think some late war planes do unbalance the game play and make the game not as fun. For example, if you were in an arena with only jets, the fight would be a lot slower. There wouldn't be as many close quarter furballs and everything would be spread out in the sky. This is not as intense in most cases. With WW2 planes, the fights are close quarters and more actionable or intense. The WW1 arena is like a furball on steroids, which is exciting! So when you look at specific planes in the WW2 genre that were built closest to the end of the war, they will be very fast, and very agile, thus drawing out the fights and making them slower (ie, run away, dive away, fly at 25K, always go 360 or faster and scurry away at any lost advantage) this drives players nuts. They don't want to fly in these types of planes, but they have to escape the hoards of La7s, Yak3s and 190Ds who chase them down every time. It gets old. You see an arena filled with late war monster planes with people who are too affraid to get down and dirty, so they fly the fastest planes at the highest alt and pick all day.

With less of these planes, you will see more furballs, more people actually fighting, lower alt fights, faster furballs, and more balanced fights overall. If people like me always flew 190Ds and LA7s, it would unbalance the game. People like skyyr got 1/3 the kills of AH in the damn planes.. Maybe if the plane was perked, people wouldn't choose it as much, and therefore would make fights quicker by putting them in planes they can't simple run in.. and make the gameplay dull.

And if you have 12,000 perks, and fly a 190D or p51D, are you really going to B and complain and quit the game about having to spend 5 perks? Gimme a break.

Voice of reason is always like a breath of fresh air.

Post like this should be stickied and quoted on every occasion.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: waystin2 on July 18, 2017, 10:07:20 AM
Voice of reason is always like a breath of fresh air.

Post like this should be stickied and quoted on every occasion.
If you flew in the game you would know that the player you are glorifying is usually found in the same faster higher end planes... :rolleyes: Sticky this.  :aok
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: DmonSlyr on July 18, 2017, 10:51:57 AM
If you flew in the game you would know that the player you are glorifying is usually found in the same faster higher end planes... :rolleyes: Sticky this.  :aok


FALSE

Last tour, My most kills were in the P51B

I get a lot of kills in the P47D25 and 109G2, Tour 207 and 208 were all mostly G2 kills.

The F4Us certainly arent the fastest planes, although I do fly the 4hog and Chog and temp to fight the hoard, use the Chog to jabo from CV.

The 109G14 is still a 25 eny plane

I dont fly 190Ds or La7s, rarely the fly the P51D for chits

So, you better check yo self before you accuse me of flying "Faster high end planes all the time"

You don't want me to actually do that.


Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: waystin2 on July 18, 2017, 11:07:56 AM

FALSE

Last tour, My most kills were in the P51B

And that ain't speed?  :uhoh  Ok  You got me there.   :aok
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Vinkman on July 18, 2017, 01:22:28 PM
But when numbers are skewed in someone's favour, they can still up some of the best planes because the ENY values are out of whack.

Much rather fight 3 tiffies (10) than 3 KI or Yak3 (18).

ugh
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Vinkman on July 18, 2017, 01:30:51 PM
...

Yak3 vs Spit9....Both planes are free so why would you fly a Spit 9?   


Because the Yak3 does not easily beat a Spit9 in a 1v1.  Get a yak3 and I will meet you in the Match Play arena and I will show you.   :salute

Most planes are not way better than other planes. They have advantages and dis-advantages that make huge differences in the results they get in the Melee arena, not to mention that all pilots do not, and can not take advantage of the differences in most of these planes. The SPit has twice the guns of the yak3. Try shooting down a formation of B-17s in a Yak3.  :aok

In my experience the best pilots in the game do not fly the uber rides. Perking the uber rides will put the lesser pilots at an even greater disadvantage than today.

...But that's really what you guys are after isn't?  All this talk of fairness is a thinly veiled whine that sucky pilots are besting you in their uber rides so HiTech should changes the rules so you can "Pwn" these pretenders.  Come on admit it.  :)
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: oboe on July 18, 2017, 02:03:47 PM
The original question of this thread was about why there are lightly perked vehicles, but no lightly perked aircraft.  Why is that?  It seems to work for vehicles, so what's the rational behind it, and why isn't it used for aircraft?

Lusche took at stab at an answer here, but the thread mostly evolved into pros and cons of light perking some late-War fighters.

In my subjective opinion, the performance differences  between individual tanks (notably armor & penetration) have a somewhat bigger impact on the results then those between the planes.

And actually I think Vinkman just said the same thing from the opposite point of view, when he stated:
Quote
Most planes are not way better than other planes.

It might also be the case that perking aircraft came first; just a few aircraft were perked--but at medium and high costs.  When vehicles came along, HTC experimented successfully with light perking of some of the units.  But perhaps they felt it wouldn't be right to go back now and lightly perk some fighters...dunno.

I think someone else mentioned along the way that tanks are also more vulnerable (being hunted by both GVs and aircraft) so they wouldn't support as high a perk cost as aircraft?   Although, the Tiger II seems roughly in the same neighborhood of cost as the Me262...
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Mister Fork on July 18, 2017, 03:31:29 PM
Because the Yak3 does not easily beat a Spit9 in a 1v1.  Get a yak3 and I will meet you in the Match Play arena and I will show you.   :salute

Most planes are not way better than other planes. They have advantages and dis-advantages that make huge differences in the results they get in the Melee arena, not to mention that all pilots do not, and can not take advantage of the differences in most of these planes. The SPit has twice the guns of the yak3. Try shooting down a formation of B-17s in a Yak3.  :aok

In my experience the best pilots in the game do not fly the uber rides. Perking the uber rides will put the lesser pilots at an even greater disadvantage than today.

...But that's really what you guys are after isn't?  All this talk of fairness is a thinly veiled whine that sucky pilots are besting you in their uber rides so HiTech should changes the rules so you can "Pwn" these pretenders.  Come on admit it.  :)

When someone comes at me in my ride in an early war aircraft (i.e. P-40, Buffalo, Spit I), two things happen:

1. They spin on their tail and fight like a trapped raccoon in a corner, or;
2. They go down in flames wondering what hit them. 

In the MA, I'm finding that most are seasoned veterans and because they're in a EW/MW aircraft, it doesn't mean they're easy bait. Usually, I find that I've been baited.

(http://img.memecdn.com/evil-raccoon_o_984912.jpg)
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Zygote404 on July 18, 2017, 04:01:45 PM
Because the Yak3 does not easily beat a Spit9 in a 1v1.  Get a yak3 and I will meet you in the Match Play arena and I will show you.   :salute

Most planes are not way better than other planes. They have advantages and dis-advantages that make huge differences in the results they get in the Melee arena, not to mention that all pilots do not, and can not take advantage of the differences in most of these planes. The SPit has twice the guns of the yak3. Try shooting down a formation of B-17s in a Yak3.  :aok

In my experience the best pilots in the game do not fly the uber rides. Perking the uber rides will put the lesser pilots at an even greater disadvantage than today.

...But that's really what you guys are after isn't?  All this talk of fairness is a thinly veiled whine that sucky pilots are besting you in their uber rides so HiTech should changes the rules so you can "Pwn" these pretenders.  Come on admit it.  :)
Guns don't mean anything if you can't put your guns on the target due to AoA or range.  The Yak3 can dictate rang on a Spit 9 for as long as it wants.  It can extend, climb and gain an E advantage all day long and the Spit will not touch it.   

As for your last paragraph no not really.  Been playing a month and I'm 30/30 kill / deaths in the TA 152 which is all I fly now and there are a couple of decent pilots in that count too.   Yesterday I fought 2 tiffies low level turn fighting TA which is mostly what I do in it unless I'm slashing through a furball.

Certainly not the best pilot however I think your point was to devalue what was said by using ad hominem which is a very poor way of arguing as its very transparent and shallow.

The argument as least from me was that having the very best of the planes perked would be beneficial and encourage people to try the other planes which are not too terrible, pretty sure there was nothing about being killed a lot and tissues, snot and stuff.     
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: lunatic1 on July 18, 2017, 06:05:33 PM
Guns don't mean anything if you can't put your guns on the target due to AoA or range.  The Yak3 can dictate rang on a Spit 9 for as long as it wants.  It can extend, climb and gain an E advantage all day long and the Spit will not touch it.   

As for your last paragraph no not really.  Been playing a month and I'm 30/30 kill / deaths in the TA 152 which is all I fly now and there are a couple of decent pilots in that count too.   Yesterday I fought 2 tiffies low level turn fighting TA which is mostly what I do in it unless I'm slashing through a furball.

Certainly not the best pilot however I think your point was to devalue what was said by using ad hominem which is a very poor way of arguing as its very transparent and shallow.

The argument as least from me was that having the very best of the planes perked would be beneficial and encourage people to try the other planes which are not too terrible, pretty sure there was nothing about being killed a lot and tissues, snot and stuff.     

well hell I guess I didna kill 2 yak 3's with a spit 9 last tour-I wonder what it was nope yep it was a spit9 I used.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: lunatic1 on July 18, 2017, 06:07:52 PM
Free arenas and customs

but when you check this or his other post esp when HiTech tells him which to use he won't
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: lunatic1 on July 18, 2017, 06:13:53 PM
The original question of this thread was about why there are lightly perked vehicles, but no lightly perked aircraft.  Why is that?  It seems to work for vehicles, so what's the rational behind it, and why isn't it used for aircraft?

Lusche took at stab at an answer here, but the thread mostly evolved into pros and cons of light perking some late-War fighters.

And actually I think Vinkman just said the same thing from the opposite point of view, when he stated:
It might also be the case that perking aircraft came first; just a few aircraft were perked--but at medium and high costs.  When vehicles came along, HTC experimented successfully with light perking of some of the units.  But perhaps they felt it wouldn't be right to go back now and lightly perk some fighters...dunno.

I think someone else mentioned along the way that tanks are also more vulnerable (being hunted by both GVs and aircraft) so they wouldn't support as high a perk cost as aircraft?   Although, the Tiger II seems roughly in the same neighborhood of cost as the Me262...

I took out a TigerII this morning to kill a Hanger camper, today JUL 18 it was 156 perks I don't think that was lightly perked.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Zygote404 on July 18, 2017, 06:41:03 PM
well hell I guess I didna kill 2 yak 3's with a spit 9 last tour-I wonder what it was nope yep it was a spit9 I used.
Another straw man response - there was no statement that said a spit 9 can't kill a yak-3. 

I'm sure you could kill a yak-3 piloted by me in your spit 9.  I'm sure I could kill a yak3 sitting on rearming pad with a spit 9.  Today I had a turn fight with with a guy named OBX in a TA-152 and he augered his Ki84 into the ground, does that mean a TA-152 can outturn a KI84? No.  It can't.

The fact is this - all things being Equal, a Spit 9 will not kill a Yak3.     

Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Ack-Ack on July 18, 2017, 07:09:01 PM
Another straw man response - there was no statement that said a spit 9 can't kill a yak-3. 

I'm sure you could kill a yak-3 piloted by me in your spit 9.  I'm sure I could kill a yak3 sitting on rearming pad with a spit 9.  Today I had a turn fight with with a guy named OBX in a TA-152 and he augered his Ki84 into the ground, does that mean a TA-152 can outturn a KI84? No.  It can't.

The fact is this - all things being Equal, a Spit 9 will not kill a Yak3.   

It's rather silly comparing the Spitfire Mk IX to the Yak-3.  The Spitfire Mk IX we have in game is an early version of that type and its best performance is at medium to high altitudes in this game and at lower altitudes easily beaten by the Yak-3's superior low altitude performance.  Compare the Spitfire Mk XVI vs. the Yak-3 and things tend to equal up a bit between the two.

ack-ack
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Zygote404 on July 18, 2017, 08:05:42 PM
It's rather silly comparing the Spitfire Mk IX to the Yak-3.  The Spitfire Mk IX we have in game is an early version of that type and its best performance is at medium to high altitudes in this game and at lower altitudes easily beaten by the Yak-3's superior low altitude performance.  Compare the Spitfire Mk XVI vs. the Yak-3 and things tend to equal up a bit between the two.

ack-ack
We really have to compare the planes based on where they operate in the game, not their theoretically performance at altitudes they never operate at. 

I mean technically my TA does 480mph with WEP but I need to climb to 44,000 feet and wait 15 minutes for it to accelerate to that speed, clearly a pointless exercise.


   
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Vinkman on July 18, 2017, 09:41:36 PM
The Yak3 can dictate rang on a Spit 9 for as long as it wants...all day long and the Spit will not touch it.   

Again meet me in the match play arena and I will show you that is not true.

Quote
As for your last paragraph...I think your point was to devalue what was said by using ad hominem which is a very poor way of arguing as its very transparent and shallow.
     

My last paragraph was sarcasm and humor. Hence the smiley face.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: DmonSlyr on July 19, 2017, 04:59:17 PM
Again meet me in the match play arena and I will show you that is not true.

My last paragraph was sarcasm and humor. Hence the smiley face.

Vinkman, skill level does not represent the level of the plane. Each plane can be flown to a full envelope, some planes have different envelopes and perform those envelopes better than others. That's just a fact, that's the whole reason why planes got faster and faster and faster over time. Speed is king in real air combat. Agility is king in AH. This makes the Yak3 so much better than the spit based on performance. A smart pilot would not get in a stall fight yak3 vs Spit9, but in a fair 1v1, you fail to realize that the yak could simply and easily out rope the spit on the merge, every time, the spit would be in the defense the entire fight. Whether or not the spit pilot has more skill vs the yak3 pilot is not based on the pure performance of the plane. I'm sure players could run circles on me with a P40 agaisnt their spit16. Doesn't mean I wont give them a hard time, but they should have the advantage the entire time, it should be a no contest.

The MA is far different that 1v1. The MA requires a lot more indepth SA and a lot more indepth understanding of how each plane performs. A yak3 in the MA is far superior in every way compared to the spit9. They were built long before. What we are trying to say is, The fights overall would be more fun, and more close combat if everyone flew in midwar planes most of the time. A small perk on late war planes would achieve this. An ecosystem is good with sharks, but not too many. Right now, there is just too many yak3, 190Ds, and P51Ds, to run away and pick when the advantage comes, this creates poor slow game play because the fights are more drawn out. 

Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: waystin2 on July 19, 2017, 05:17:22 PM
I think they should perk planes based on usage/impact in game using real statistics not subjective opinions.  I see no planes that are not currently perked that deserve a perk at this time.  However, there are some planes that are due for some ENY adjustments based on usage/impact in game.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: bustr on July 19, 2017, 05:37:29 PM
You would create a new pecking order of aircraft use based on a player's tolerance for risk. The same people who are risk averse in the late war aircraft will not suddenly become fire breathing risk takers extraordinaire. Forced to settle with lesser rides they would once again determine what rides give them the best chances to run away at will and stick with those.

The risk averse in life outnumber risk takers and are the norm. When you have 100 players in the MA where the norm for risk takers is 10-12% of the population. Even as shown in WW2 with that percentage, there are more in the 10-12% who will tend towards a conservative approach(risk tolerance again) versus fly into 50 109's and attack them to defend their bombers. When we had 300 players in the MA, the chances of running into a top tier risk taker was high and made it look like more existed than there was. The risk takers made the DA look crowded because they naturally found each other and competed taking risks which was their form of fun.

Because of our low numbers it's obvious the majority of customers are risk averse and their choice of things to do and methods to accomplish them reflect this. It's insultingly obvious to the risk takers(constantly complaining in the forums about it) who are generally intolerant to understanding what makes the risk averse not want to fight. And bores them because they cannot always get at the few other risk takers for fights. While the risk averse just run away when things start getting good for the risk takers. Forcing everyone into lesser aircraft for their own good to have fun, will just make them runaway from you slower while you chase them slower. 

Funny thing with the risk averse you used to see in the DA furball lake and still in the WWI arena. When it's obvious they are fighting against players in their general skill level and risk tolerance. They stay around, fight and take risks. They start loosing interest as the number of risk takers goes up. Guess they don't like being cannon fodder after they were having so much fun.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: DmonSlyr on July 19, 2017, 05:46:35 PM
You would create a new pecking order of aircraft use based on a player's tolerance for risk. The same people who are risk averse in the late war aircraft will not suddenly become fire breathing risk takers extraordinaire. Forced to settle with lesser rides they would once again determine what rides give them the best chances to run away at will and stick with those.

The risk averse in life outnumber risk takers and are the norm. When you have 100 players in the MA where the norm for risk takers is 10-12% of the population. Even as shown in WW2 with that percentage, there are more in the 10-12% who will tend towards a conservative approach(risk tolerance again) versus fly into 50 109's and attack them to defend their bombers. When we had 300 players in the MA, the chances of running into a top tier risk taker was high and made it look like more existed than there was. The risk takers made the DA look crowded because they naturally found each other and competed taking risks which was their form of fun.

Because of our low numbers it's obvious the majority of customers are risk averse and their choice of things to do and methods to accomplish them reflect this. It's insultingly obvious to the risk takers(constantly complaining in the forums about it) who are generally intolerant to understanding what makes the risk averse not want to fight. And bores them because they cannot always get at the few other risk takers for fights. While the risk averse just run away when things start getting good for the risk takers. Forcing everyone into lesser aircraft for their own good to have fun, will just make them runaway from you slower while you chase them slower. 

Funny thing with the risk averse you used to see in the DA furball lake and still in the WWI arena. When it's obvious they are fighting against players in their general skill level and risk tolerance. They stay around, fight and take risks. They start loosing interest as the number of risk takers goes up. Guess they don't like being cannon fodder after they were having so much fun.

100% why the #s are down is because bases are too far away, and people are tired of running 190Ds, hoards of 190Ds, P51Ds, LA7s running them down after take off, and Yak3s with their 5K alt per minute zoom climb (along with spit8, and spit16). If people aren't taking these planes to the full envelope, than they don't understand how good these planes are. Apparently it's hard for yall to grasp this very specific reason on why the #s have died. It is that simple.

Secondly, the Midwar planes do not run away as fast. The speeds are more relative for all planes, and most midwar planes turn well, thus giving people more of a reason to turn and fight.

Slower planes generally create better furballs. Shorter base distance create less time to get to the furball, and more time to actually fight. That is the big picture. This will bring the #s.

 

Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Zoney on July 19, 2017, 06:28:28 PM
100% why the #s are down is because bases are too far away, and people are tired of running 190Ds, hoards of 190Ds, P51Ds, LA7s running them down after take off, and Yak3s with their 5K alt per minute zoom climb (along with spit8, and spit16). If people aren't taking these planes to the full envelope, than they don't understand how good these planes are. Apparently it's hard for yall to grasp this very specific reason on why the #s have died. It is that simple.

Secondly, the Midwar planes do not run away as fast. The speeds are more relative for all planes, and most midwar planes turn well, thus giving people more of a reason to turn and fight.

Slower planes generally create better furballs. Shorter base distance create less time to get to the furball, and more time to actually fight. That is the big picture. This will bring the #s.

Thank you for sharing your guess as to why numbers are down, again.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Lusche on July 19, 2017, 07:15:47 PM
Slower planes generally create better furballs. Shorter base distance create less time to get to the furball, and more time to actually fight. That is the big picture. This will bring the #s.

You are projecting your own narrow gameplay preferences on everyone  else. What if many or even most weren't actually looking for 'better furballs'? How do you actually know why people left? Or better, why AH just didn't recruit enough new players, because players do leave games, even great and fun ones, all the time. What is your data base for a whopping '100%' knowledge?

Interestingly enough, we DID have such places for better furballs, the early EW & MW arenas and WWI. After the split about everyone was in EW & MW arenas first. And yet they left to return to LW. WWI was nothing but a close range furball for a month. Then players just went back to LW, never to be seen again for the most part.
If everybody just wanted the best and quickest furballs, why did they leve those places?

On the other hand, AH had all that, the hordes (even more extreme ones than today), the landgrabbing, the utter dominance of a very few 'endgame' fighters. Yet AH's number kept growing for years.

I think your view is much biased and very simplistic. It's as if I would claim "100%, the numbers are down because the central strats are gone" (which is actually my personal pet peeve).

Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Zimme83 on July 19, 2017, 08:08:25 PM
The removal of the center strats was a huge misstake imo too, after that strat runs is more about noe and JABOs, if they arent too far away to hit. Bring back the central strats. Some of us do want to do the hour long bomber missions, but there has to be a target Worth the effort..
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Zygote404 on July 19, 2017, 08:10:47 PM
You are projecting your own narrow gameplay preferences on everyone  else. What if many or even most weren't actually looking for 'better furballs'? How do you actually know why people left? Or better, why AH just didn't recruit enough new players, because players do leave games, even great and fun ones, all the time. What is your data base for a whopping '100%' knowledge?

Interestingly enough, we DID have such places for better furballs, the early EW & MW arenas and WWI. After the split about everyone was in EW & MW arenas first. And yet they left to return to LW. WWI was nothing but a close range furball for a month. Then players just went back to LW, never to be seen again for the most part.
If everybody just wanted the best and quickest furballs, why did they leve those places?

On the other hand, AH had all that, the hordes (even more extreme ones than today), the landgrabbing, the utter dominance of a very few 'endgame' fighters. Yet AH's number kept growing for years.

I think your view is much biased and very simplistic. It's as if I would claim "100%, the numbers are down because the central strats are gone" (which is actually my personal pet peeve).
I can tell you why I am thinking of leaving.

#1: I'm an Aussie and when I log on there are usually 20 players on.  There is usually a number of teams of GV base takers one manning or two manning bases ever few minutes.  There is usually no one to fight.

#2 I love fast hard hitting planes, Mossie, Tiffie.  My favourite plane is the Typhoon.  I don't fly it because it is so outmatched by a few planes that are very common.   The La7 and now Yak3 being the most deadly.

# I feel almost forced to fly planes I don't like to fly (Spit, LA, Yak, F4U) to compete.

Whether I'm an example of why the average player who starts and quits is quitting is up for debate but these are some things that might be fixed pretty easily:

Planes

Why are most people going for the 5 or 6 specific planes they are?
Can something be done to reduce the number of these planes so more planes are represented in game?
Will perking these planes work?
Can something else be done other than perking?  Carrot rather than stick?
Is the lack of diversity even the reason people are not staying?
Can something be done about AH reality vs WW2 reality (scaling of performance AH vs RL)?

Time Zones
Why are there some many GV base takers in downtime rather than in planes?
Is it because of the nerfed GV icons? Towns too easy to take down with just GV's and no air support?
Is the lack of players on non-prime time hours related to a lack of people in planes because they're in GV's taking bases?  Is the lack of players in non-prime time hours reducing player numbers in non-prime time hours? (does a guy subscribe, find no one to fight in planes, so unsubscribes?). 
Can something be done to alleviate that? Etc Etc.   
Can bases be buffed in non-prime time hours? Etc ETc.

 

Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Lusche on July 19, 2017, 08:47:37 PM

Planes

Why are most people going for the 5 or 6 specific planes they are?

Human nature. AH is a game, and in almost all games players tend to optmimize their choices. You can see similar stuff in AH just like, for example, in Eve online or Elite Dangerous

Can something be done to reduce the number of these planes so more planes are represented in game?
I somewhat doubt it. There will always be a top choice for a certain job, and severe regulations might frustrate many players even more.
Also I believe the AH plane usage is actually quite diverse, but I'm sure we could debate about this for a long time ;)

Will perking these planes work?
To some extend, certainly. But as noted above, you might annoy a lot more people than you might make happy.

Can something else be done other than perking?  Carrot rather than stick?
Honestly, I do not think so.

Is the lack of diversity even the reason people are not staying?
There is no 'The Reason' inasmuch theres a single simple, clear gameplay reason. At times, AH even had strongly rising numbers despite having not more diversity at all. Then back in early 2008 the number stopped out and went donward without any negative change in plane diversity, furball density, base distance


Can something be done about AH reality vs WW2 reality (scaling of performance AH vs RL)?
You mean nerfing a certain plane because it's too powerful? That's not a can, that's a supetanke full of worms you would open with that  :uhoh


Time Zones
Why are there some many GV base takers in downtime rather than in planes?

Because when about nobody is on, it's the best time to sneak a base ;)

Is the lack of players on non-prime time hours related to a lack of people in planes because they're in GV's taking bases?

The old problem: Correlation or causality?
I can say for myself: One of the reasons I primarily went bombers in my last years of regular playing was the lack of battles in my timezone - no point to fly a fighter. So it was a result of sinking numbers.
Of course such things are rarely entirely unidirectional.

  Is the lack of players in non-prime time hours reducing player numbers in non-prime time hours? (does a guy subscribe, find no one to fight in planes, so unsubscribes?). 

I could imagine that, but only HTC has that data.

 
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Lusche on July 19, 2017, 08:50:42 PM
A word on plane diversity:

In 2008, the top 5 fighters had 34% of all A2A kills and deaths. Today, it's down to 26%. The top 10 fighters had 51% of all A2A kills+deaths, today it's 44%.
If you look at just the top 3 fighters, it's even more obvious: In 2008 they had 25%, today only 18%.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Ack-Ack on July 19, 2017, 11:08:24 PM
A yak3 in the MA is far superior in every way compared to the spit9. They were built long before. What we are trying to say is, The fights overall would be more fun, and more close combat if everyone flew in midwar planes most of the time.

Again, you're doing nothing more than trying to dictate what other people fly to suit your needs, not everyone else's.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Zygote404 on July 19, 2017, 11:44:37 PM
Again, you're doing nothing more than trying to dictate what other people fly to suit your needs, not everyone else's.
You could also say that insisting the planes dominating the MA stay as they are that those insisting they stay as they are are trying to dictate what everyone flys to suit their needs.

You can say that because if they stay as they are then everyone has to fly comparable planes or be very outmatched.  Comparable planes of course mean those small set of planes that are currently dominating in the MA.

Real choice would come about by adding a small perk cost to the problematic planes so that players could comfortable choose 1) to fly one of the capable non-perked planes 2) to pay a small perk cost to fly one of the excellent late war models.  That's more choice than fly La7, Yak3, D9, Spit XVI, N1K or die.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: lunatic1 on July 20, 2017, 12:44:44 AM
You could also say that insisting the planes dominating the MA stay as they are that those insisting they stay as they are are trying to dictate what everyone flys to suit their needs.

You can say that because if they stay as they are then everyone has to fly comparable planes or be very outmatched.  Comparable planes of course mean those small set of planes that are currently dominating in the MA.

Real choice would come about by adding a small perk cost to the problematic planes so that players could comfortable choose 1) to fly one of the capable non-perked planes 2) to pay a small perk cost to fly one of the excellent late war models.  That's more choice than fly La7, Yak3, D9, Spit XVI, N1K or die.

so your saying that if a person has to pay for a plane it will make him feel better? in what world do you think that will work.
I would like it to be my choice if I want to pay for a plane.

if your having problems with the late war planes I suggest you practice and get better, than trying to get us to play this game your way.
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You could also say that insisting the planes dominating the MA stay as they are that those insisting they stay as they are are trying to dictate what everyone flys to suit their needs.

no because those planes were already here/there when you started, and there is no logical reason to change them.and your wanting this to change for you.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: lunatic1 on July 20, 2017, 12:48:50 AM
#1: I'm an Aussie and when I log on there are usually 20 players on

so when are you mostly on? the reason I ask because I saw you on tonight wed night during US. primetime with at least 140 people on and you landing kills several times.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Zygote404 on July 20, 2017, 04:00:32 AM
so your saying that if a person has to pay for a plane it will make him feel better? in what world do you think that will work.
I would like it to be my choice if I want to pay for a plane.

if your having problems with the late war planes I suggest you practice and get better, than trying to get us to play this game your way.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You could also say that insisting the planes dominating the MA stay as they are that those insisting they stay as they are are trying to dictate what everyone flys to suit their needs.

no because those planes were already here/there when you started, and there is no logical reason to change them.and your wanting this to change for you.
Here we go back to the ad hominem "you're having trouble killing late war planes therefore whining about it".  No I'm not having trouble with them.  The most kills on me have been from CHog's and Ship Gunners - I haven't mentioned those at all have I?

This is not about me its about more variety in the MA, the same way we'd see hardly any of some of the models we see all the time if the perked planes were unperked.  Just the reverse.


#1: I'm an Aussie and when I log on there are usually 20 players on

so when are you mostly on? the reason I ask because I saw you on tonight wed night during US. primetime with at least 140 people on and you landing kills several times.
Depends what shift I'm doing but usually now till about 10pm Aussie time.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: The Fugitive on July 20, 2017, 07:57:22 AM
Here we go back to the ad hominem "you're having trouble killing late war planes therefore whining about it".  No I'm not having trouble with them.  The most kills on me have been from CHog's and Ship Gunners - I haven't mentioned those at all have I?

This is not about me its about more variety in the MA, the same way we'd see hardly any of some of the models we see all the time if the perked planes were unperked.  Just the reverse.

Depends what shift I'm doing but usually now till about 10pm Aussie time.

what is your in game name?

I think m your biggest problem is the lack of numbers. if there were 5 times the player on at your time you would have less trouble finding fights. the givers wouldn't be an issue as you would be busy fighting more A2A.

that is the main reason I'm hoping HTC hooks up with Steam, just to get the numbers back up.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Zygote404 on July 20, 2017, 08:35:38 AM
Zigote, was Zygote but some assho took that name... me be back in 2000
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Skuzzy on July 20, 2017, 09:21:12 AM
Zigote, was Zygote but some assho took that name... me be back in 2000

Actually, "zygote" is available now, if you want it.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Zygote404 on July 20, 2017, 09:52:42 AM
Actually, "zygote" is available now, if you want it.
Sweet, thanks Skuzzy :)
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: DmonSlyr on July 20, 2017, 10:35:57 AM
You are projecting your own narrow gameplay preferences on everyone  else. What if many or even most weren't actually looking for 'better furballs'? How do you actually know why people left? Or better, why AH just didn't recruit enough new players, because players do leave games, even great and fun ones, all the time. What is your data base for a whopping '100%' knowledge?

Interestingly enough, we DID have such places for better furballs, the early EW & MW arenas and WWI. After the split about everyone was in EW & MW arenas first. And yet they left to return to LW. WWI was nothing but a close range furball for a month. Then players just went back to LW, never to be seen again for the most part.
If everybody just wanted the best and quickest furballs, why did they leve those places?

On the other hand, AH had all that, the hordes (even more extreme ones than today), the landgrabbing, the utter dominance of a very few 'endgame' fighters. Yet AH's number kept growing for years.

I think your view is much biased and very simplistic. It's as if I would claim "100%, the numbers are down because the central strats are gone" (which is actually my personal pet peeve).

 Your idea does seem rational at first. But you fail to acknowledge base distance and time per fight. IF the early and midwar arenas were on a smog 8 size map, it would have exponentially got more popular over time. Instead, there was about 4 fish in a giant pond of 82 bases that take 20 minutes to get to. NOT FUN FOR 5 PEOPLE. Best to start with very small map and grow as the #s increase.

Now, we are running into the same problems in the late war arena.

People do want furballs and action. Just look at your own stats of how many people choose fighters over other game types. What does that tell you? And why have so many known furballers left the game? It is too slow.

Why is it, when there's a huge group in the WW1, post get made about how exciting it is, but you cant take into consideration that quicker game play provides more fun for most people?

Do I need to start posting pictures of the map to show why fights are stalling in many places? Will that prove why there is such a lack of action?

I actually agree with your strat premise. I think that should be looked at. But realistically, most people join this game because of fighter combat, and the lack of acknowledging that, and not working on making it more actionable as the #s decrease, is the reason why #s have not regained momentum.

I disagree that light perking a few planes would make players mad. They have 34,000 perks... They could fly any plane till their heart is content, but you don't see everyone flying Tempest for a good reason. This would generally get more players in other planes besides the easiest BnZ planes in the game. The idea is to make the fights more balanced and there for more fun.

You tell me how exciting it is to see 1-2 cons or a small tiny dar, you roll off the base for about 10 minutes looking for them, only to find them at 18K in 190Ds. You wonder why people don't think that's exciting anymore?

The whole risk adverse thing is more relative to the time it takes per fight, rather than who they are fighting with.

For example. The fights in the DA that took 5 minutes to get some kills, was a lot more fun for newer players than taking 30 minutes searching for 2 190Ds at 18K and getting BnZed, then they run away at loss advantage. Lets all just roll Temps and have a pow wow shall we? The DA failed because the layout was boring, the water took too long to fix, and combining the DA with a furball arena is too big. That simple.


People do not want to spend more than 15 minutes looking for action. That is the biggest problem with the base distance and size of the current maps. Actually the map size doesn't even matter as much (with more than 60 players), but it is the base distance that makes or breaks fights in most cases. 

That is the reality. It is not biased. It is like Philosophy, I have been in the game for a long time, know 95% of the planes to the top level of performance, and fly with many top level players. I am not just throwing things out there. These are the real problems, with easy solutions, that do nothing to change the game. They are parts of the game that can be adjusted, very simple. 

You and Fugi can keep saying we need more #s to make the game play better. That is true, but doing nothing to address why the original players got tired of the game, is only going to create a bigger leak of players leaving when they all show up initially. The hole in the bucket needs to be filled. If players cannot find action within a 15 minute span of time, they just quit, and as the #s get lower, while the maps stay the same, bases stay the same distance, only makes it worse and worse.

Hear me now but understand me later.



Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: bustr on July 20, 2017, 11:32:36 AM

This is not about me its about more variety in the MA


Bingo, much of the root of everyone's problems right now with low numbers trying to get at the "gestalt" of the issue and how they perceive it.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 20, 2017, 01:07:09 PM
Quote
These are the real problems, with easy solutions, that do nothing to change the game. They are parts of the game that can be adjusted, very simple.

First perk the planes

then add the ground war to main arena

and you have eternal gameplay  :rock


Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Vinkman on July 20, 2017, 01:17:27 PM
Vinkman, skill level does not represent the level of the plane. Each plane can be flown to a full envelope, some planes have different envelopes and perform those envelopes better than others. That's just a fact, that's the whole reason why planes got faster and faster and faster over time. Speed is king in real air combat. Agility is king in AH. This makes the Yak3 so much better than the spit based on performance. A smart pilot would not get in a stall fight yak3 vs Spit9, but in a fair 1v1, you fail to realize that the yak could simply and easily out rope the spit on the merge, every time, the spit would be in the defense the entire fight. Whether or not the spit pilot has more skill vs the yak3 pilot is not based on the pure performance of the plane. I'm sure players could run circles on me with a P40 agaisnt their spit16. Doesn't mean I wont give them a hard time, but they should have the advantage the entire time, it should be a no contest.

The MA is far different that 1v1. The MA requires a lot more in depth SA and a lot more in depth understanding of how each plane performs. A yak3 in the MA is far superior in every way compared to the spit9. They were built long before. What we are trying to say is, The fights overall would be more fun, and more close combat if everyone flew in midwar planes most of the time. A small perk on late war planes would achieve this. An ecosystem is good with sharks, but not too many. Right now, there is just too many yak3, 190Ds, and P51Ds, to run away and pick when the advantage comes, this creates poor slow game play because the fights are more drawn out.

That's all fine. But the yak has a weak gun package, and is not more agile than a spitfire. The tak is Slower than a dora, K4, La7 and mustang so it cannot engage and disengage at will in the MA. In short, it does not dominate the MA such that it needs to be perked to create balance.

Plane disparity creates fighting fairness. Your assumption is the best pilots fly the best planes. That is completely the opposite of my 10 years experience in the MA. Unless you think LilMak is gaming the system by stall fighting a jug.  HAve you never heard the time "Noob Ride" in all your years in the MA?  Because noobs need the better planes. Perking them will only create more fighting unbalance.  :salute

It's the wrong solution to a non-problem.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Hungry on July 20, 2017, 01:26:24 PM
Just curious,

Why are players in the World of Warship thread more than wiling to work up to the better ships there but think its sacrilegious here? I bet Nugs would know, lol
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: DmonSlyr on July 20, 2017, 01:53:24 PM
Just curious,

Why are players in the World of Warship thread more than wiling to work up to the better ships there but think its sacrilegious here? I bet Nugs would know, lol


Its called the liberal mentality where poor hopeless noobs don't have a real chance because of the big bad long time players who understand the game.

Better just release the Temps so they have a chance.... Running away is obviously more beneficial to noobs than getting them to actually fight.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Hungry on July 20, 2017, 02:02:41 PM

Its called the liberal mentality where poor hopeless noobs don't have a real chance because of the big bad long time players who understand the game.

Better just release the Temps so they have a chance.... Running away is obviously more beneficial to noobs than getting them to actually fight.

I don't get it, I've played those games, sticking your neck out time after time and fighting for your life when your new is half the fun to getting better at least in those games, I guess not this one.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 20, 2017, 02:06:09 PM
Just curious,

Why are players in the World of Warship thread more than wiling to work up to the better ships there but think its sacrilegious here? I bet Nugs would know, lol

Sense of progression which can be found in role-playing games, where the character archetype gets stronger and stronger as he progresses through the game. It is the sense of journey, adventure, odyssey which you are hero of.

In case of world of warship getting a 'better' ship without the story, just grinding to be 'stronger'.

It is the same as people go to the gym, they grind their muscles at the gym.

Imagine if everyone had arnold schwarzenneger muscles and no one would have to work for those muscles, they would mean nothing and it would mean nothing to be a 'strong man'.

That is why serving everything on platter is bad - no work - no fun - means nothing.


I would be more happy to fly that p51 if first I would have to fly that spit 1 and then p40, because then I would know I accomplished something in the world of Aces High, meaning I must be a ok pilot, not only using a few learned gimmicks of a specific plane to 'own' others. What is the fun in that?

New players come to AH, they take instantly p51 and get destroyed by vets in p51 and they have no incentive to get better, because they already have 'the best' plane so they don't have anything to strive for to get better, and they quit.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: waystin2 on July 20, 2017, 03:06:21 PM


New players come to AH, they take instantly p51 and get destroyed by vets in p51 and they have no incentive to get better, because they already have 'the best' plane so they don't have anything to strive for to get better, and they quit.
Do you have evidence to back this statement up?  Sounds pretty subjective, especially come from a two week free trialer.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Ack-Ack on July 20, 2017, 03:09:46 PM
Do you have evidence to back this statement up?  Sounds pretty subjective, especially come from a two week free trialer.

Of course he doesn't, just like Violator doesn't have any evidence to back up his statements either.  Both are making wishes for their own desire, not for the game.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: waystin2 on July 20, 2017, 03:13:35 PM
Of course he doesn't, just like Violator doesn't have any evidence to back up his statements either.  Both are making wishes for their own desire, not for the game.
:aok
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 20, 2017, 03:17:22 PM
Of course he doesn't, just like Violator doesn't have any evidence to back up his statements either.  Both are making wishes for their own desire, not for the game.

Evidence are the people itself - we are the evidence.

New players coming and giving hints, old players giving hints. Online game is the players, that is the evidence.

Low playerbase, that is the evidence.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Skuzzy on July 20, 2017, 03:25:26 PM
Evidence are the people itself - we are the evidence.

New players coming and giving hints, old players giving hints. Online game is the players, that is the evidence.

Low playerbase, that is the evidence.

Yeah, that is not evidence.  At least not evidence that what you suggest would be the remedy.

Nothing you have suggested would do what you think it would do, but I think the horse is quite dead now, so I am not going to belabor it.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: mikeWe9a on July 20, 2017, 05:17:28 PM
Sense of progression which can be found in role-playing games, where the character archetype gets stronger and stronger as he progresses through the game. It is the sense of journey, adventure, odyssey which you are hero of.

In case of world of warship getting a 'better' ship without the story, just grinding to be 'stronger'.

It is the same as people go to the gym, they grind their muscles at the gym.

Imagine if everyone had arnold schwarzenneger muscles and no one would have to work for those muscles, they would mean nothing and it would mean nothing to be a 'strong man'.

That is why serving everything on platter is bad - no work - no fun - means nothing.


I would be more happy to fly that p51 if first I would have to fly that spit 1 and then p40, because then I would know I accomplished something in the world of Aces High, meaning I must be a ok pilot, not only using a few learned gimmicks of a specific plane to 'own' others. What is the fun in that?

New players come to AH, they take instantly p51 and get destroyed by vets in p51 and they have no incentive to get better, because they already have 'the best' plane so they don't have anything to strive for to get better, and they quit.

That can never work in a single persistent world.  Your new players, stuck with low performance aircraft, would be stuck fighting more experienced players in higher performance aircraft.  In WoW/WoT/WT, lower performance vehicles/vessels are paired against other lower performance vehicles to a significant extent.  With a huge number of independent and totally unrelated battles going on with relatively few people in each, this can be done.  You simply cannot do it in a single persistent arena, because there is no mechanism at all to match performance between players.

Mike
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: TequilaChaser on July 20, 2017, 06:30:38 PM
Sense of progression which can be found in role-playing games, where the character archetype gets stronger and stronger as he progresses through the game. It is the sense of journey, adventure, odyssey which you are hero of.

In case of world of warship getting a 'better' ship without the story, just grinding to be 'stronger'.


So your memory "outed" you, drawing from HiTech's past idea he was working on for AH's New Combat Theatre

😂 keep em'coming, troobll...... 😂

TC
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: TequilaChaser on July 20, 2017, 06:37:21 PM
As for being unfair while flying Typhoons because of La7's etc.....

Learn / Train / Practice..... Coach had nearly 10,000 or more kills flying the Tiffy in AH, against all those badarse late war fighters.....

Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: DmonSlyr on July 20, 2017, 09:01:48 PM
The 190D and P51D are the planes that help the new guys the most. The yak3 has stolen the vibe from the La7 and spit16, but you still see em. The Ki84 and nik are planes that are good for beginners.

The reason why the 190 is so prevelant is because of the base distance. It's a fast plane that can get to base quickly, it can dive fast, has great acceleration, has cannons, and can out run almost any plane. When you have an arena that is filled with theses types of fast BnZ planes (because it takes so long to get there and they don't want to die quickly.) It makes the game play slower because now every one has to fly at 20K in speed demons to catch someone.) The P51D and 190D if flown right, are the top nastiest planes besides the Temp and maybe F4U4. The difference is that the BnZ planes cannot turn, and therefore most new people just "zoom" away. Having less BnZ planes in the game, but quicker time to get to fights, will bring much better overall fights and more action to the game overall.

A small perk cost isn't going to hurt any of these macho men with their 20K perks in their 190Ds. Might be nice to actually have more things to spend perks on.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Zygote404 on July 20, 2017, 09:02:08 PM
As for being unfair while flying Typhoons because of La7's etc.....

Learn / Train / Practice..... Coach had nearly 10,000 or more kills flying the Tiffy in AH, against all those badarse late war fighters.....
Its not about unfairness.  War is inherently unfair and the game is based on WW2.

I flew Tiffies for years in AH and the LA7 was and is death unless the guys stupid.  I have no problem with that.

When the CHog was dominating in numbers and kills it was perked.  There are still CHogs but as you know we now often see a variety of hogs its not automatic Hog = CHog like it used to be.

Be nice to likewise see more La5, Spit 9, Yak 9U and the rest of the mid tier planeset too
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: lunatic1 on July 20, 2017, 11:56:06 PM
Its not about unfairness.  War is inherently unfair and the game is based on WW2.

I flew Tiffies for years in AH and the LA7 was and is death unless the guys stupid.  I have no problem with that.

When the CHog was dominating in numbers and kills it was perked.  There are still CHogs but as you know we now often see a variety of hogs its not automatic Hog = CHog like it used to be.

Be nice to likewise see more La5, Spit 9, Yak 9U and the rest of the mid tier planeset too
this game is not based on WWII. it's a flight sim using WWII assets.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: lunatic1 on July 20, 2017, 11:57:32 PM
Be nice to likewise see more La5, Spit 9, Yak 9U and the rest of the mid tier planeset too

people will fly what they want, that's the beauty of this game.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Zygote404 on July 21, 2017, 01:46:09 AM
Be nice to likewise see more La5, Spit 9, Yak 9U and the rest of the mid tier planeset too

people will fly what they want, that's the beauty of this game.
Sorry but the game is most definitely based on WWII.   Every virtual asset in game is from the period of WWII 1939 - 1945.   

People can not fly what they want in Aces High.  There are a number of planes that are perked and an ENY system that restricts people from flying the majority of the super planes if numbers are skewed in their favour. 

Having said that doing away with the current ENY system I would be in favour of.   It must suck as a Bish spending 50%+ of time flying 20 ENY or higher planes.

A better system would be to move ENY to town and field objects and off planes altogether, have 3 times the numbers, must use 3 times the bombs on the objects.  Perk the latest war models.

Now you might say that's forcing people not to fly those planes, or forcing them to pay to fly those planes, or whatever but I would disagree.  Its giving them a choice, fly a Spit 9 (an awesome plane), or fly a Spit XVI (an even more awesome plane as a reward for killing people in the Spit 9 and gaining perks).  It should be trivial to get enough perks to fly another Spit XVI just by flying the Spit XVI given its capabilities).  If you can't get 3 - 6 perks in a Spit XVI before you die its probably not a good idea for you to be flying one.   It was very common in WWII for great and good pilots to be given the best planes while the newbies got the trash until they proved themselves.

I hardly fly Spit, LA, or N1K, Yak3 but when I have I have found its somewhat like setting the game from Normal mode to Easy.   In fact its so easy I generally become very complacent, stop worrying about SA, E and I find myself getting into stupid situations I'd usually avoid and get shot down :)
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: bozon on July 21, 2017, 01:56:50 AM
people will fly what they want, that's the beauty of this game.
No they dont. If they could, they'd fly the chog tempest and 262s. These planes do not offer any real advatage if everyone flies them. They were considered "unbalancing" to the game because they made other planes go the way of the p40C and the B5N. La7 for example is just a tad less problematic then the big perked rides. 190D 109k and P51D even less so. If they do deserve a perk tag for the sake of shifting the models population towards earlier in the war, it is a very light perk tag. It is a spectrum, not a boolean worthy/not worthy of a perk tag.

Once this becomes the norm, it will be the new norm, just like now when we do not have hords of tempest and 262 fans stomping their feet and demand they be unperked or they quit. A P51 fan can fly a B and a 190 fan can fly A5/8 and 109 fan can fly  g14 and La fan can fly La5 for a sortie or two, then get back in his 1 perk ride.

It is a viable idea, but the transition is a risk that HT does not like. It will never happen.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: BowHTR on July 21, 2017, 07:20:53 AM
Sorry but the game is most definitely based on WWII.   Every virtual asset in game is from the period of WWII 1939 - 1945. 1

People can not fly what they want in Aces High.  There are a number of planes that are perked and an ENY system that restricts people from flying the majority of the super planes if numbers are skewed in their favour. 

Having said that doing away with the current ENY system I would be in favour of.   It must suck as a Bish spending 50%+ of time flying 20 ENY or higher planes. 2

A better system would be to move ENY to town and field objects and off planes altogether, have 3 times the numbers, must use 3 times the bombs on the objects.  Perk the latest war models. 3

Now you might say that's forcing people not to fly those planes, or forcing them to pay to fly those planes, or whatever but I would disagree.  Its giving them a choice, fly a Spit 9 (an awesome plane), or fly a Spit XVI (an even more awesome plane as a reward for killing people in the Spit 9 and gaining perks).  It should be trivial to get enough perks to fly another Spit XVI just by flying the Spit XVI given its capabilities).  If you can't get 3 - 6 perks in a Spit XVI before you die its probably not a good idea for you to be flying one.   It was very common in WWII for great and good pilots to be given the best planes while the newbies got the trash until they proved themselves.

I hardly fly Spit, LA, or N1K, Yak3 but when I have I have found its somewhat like setting the game from Normal mode to Easy. 4  In fact its so easy I generally become very complacent, stop worrying about SA, E and I find myself getting into stupid situations I'd usually avoid and get shot down :)

1: *cough* WWI *cough*  :D

2: The most fun planes are in the ~20 ENY area  :aok

3: I could get behind this! Talked about this the past few days with a squaddie.

4: 5 ENY planes are easy mode. That's why people flock to them.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 21, 2017, 07:51:16 AM
You simply cannot do it in a single persistent arena, because there is no mechanism at all to match performance between players.

Mike

Elo rating

(http://www.bkgm.com/faq/gif/rating-curve.gif)


and then base ENY on player rating
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: TWCAxew on July 21, 2017, 07:58:37 AM
Elo rating


and then base ENY on player rating

/unsubscribe
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: BowHTR on July 21, 2017, 08:19:26 AM
Elo rating

(http://www.bkgm.com/faq/gif/rating-curve.gif)


and then base ENY on player rating

So you want everyone to start in high ENY planes, over time working their way to earn lower ENY planes, and now once you get good, your forced back into higher ENY planes because of your skill.

 :rofl Good luck.

The Melee Arena is a sandbox. Everyone has equal opportunity to do what they want. Quit trying to change that.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on July 21, 2017, 08:27:50 AM
So you want everyone to start in high ENY planes, over time working their way to earn lower ENY planes, and now once you get good, your forced back into higher ENY planes because of your skill.

Everyone starts in high eny, over time, if someone is very good, he gets lower eny for his planes or the worse player gets higher eny, so worse players have a chance also.

Quote
Everyone has equal opportunity to do what they want. Quit trying to change that.

Exactly, but not everyones skill is equal, there are worse and better players. Worse players get killed by better players.

Worse players then get frustrated and leave.  Those who are left today pick planes and fights, if a new player would start today he would be at total disadvantage on every side.



Perking planes and having a rating system, gives a much more fair chance for new players.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: BowHTR on July 21, 2017, 08:36:43 AM
Everyone starts in high eny, over time, if someone is very good, he gets lower eny for his planes or the worse player gets higher eny, so worse players have a chance also.

Exactly, but not everyones skill is equal, there are worse and better players. Worse players get killed by better players.

Worse players then get frustrated and leave.  Those who are left today pick planes and fights, if a new player would start today he would be at total disadvantage on every side.



Perking planes and having a rating system, gives a much more fair chance for new players.

Your system still puts new players in higher ENY planes compared to the better/average players in the lower eny planes. They would still die in their high ENY planes. New players are ALWAYS going to have a disadvantage, because they are new to the game. If they want to be good at the game, they need to spend time doing that.

Your wanting a system that is like War Thunder. That isn't going to happen.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Skuzzy on July 21, 2017, 08:54:56 AM
<snip>
Your wanting a system that is like War Thunder. That isn't going to happen.

Quoted for truth.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: mikeWe9a on July 21, 2017, 10:20:00 AM
Elo rating

(http://www.bkgm.com/faq/gif/rating-curve.gif)


and then base ENY on player rating

So, are you going to limit more experienced players to lower performance planes to make it more fair?  Or are you suggesting that somehow it will be more fun for a new, inexperienced players to go up in a Brewster Buffalo against more experienced players flying FW-190D9, ME-262, and late model Spitfires?  Because while limiting the experienced players to low performance players may be more "fair," I'm pretty sure that those experienced players aren't going to go for it, and absolutely NO ONE will find it more enjoyable to limit the new players to low performance rides and drop them in the main arena surrounded by higher performance aircraft operated by more experienced people.

This discussion reminds me of some of the old days of usenet, when you couldn't tell whether someone was trolling for amusement, or just felt that their profound ignorance was a strength when debating technical topics.

Mike
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Wiley on July 21, 2017, 10:39:10 AM
Elo rating

(http://www.bkgm.com/faq/gif/rating-curve.gif)


and then base ENY on player rating

Forgetting about whatever else you're on about today, Elo rating only works for a 2 party contest like chess, or football on a by-team basis.  The Melee arena has nothing to do with a two party fight.  Therefore, Elo rating would be completely worthless for defining skill in this game.

This discussion reminds me of some of the old days of usenet, when you couldn't tell whether someone was trolling for amusement, or just felt that their profound ignorance was a strength when debating technical topics.

Mike

Why not both?

Wiley.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Zoney on July 21, 2017, 10:42:05 AM
"Never argue with a fool because they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Skuzzy on July 21, 2017, 10:45:22 AM
I am still trying to figure out why you guys are still posting about this, when we have clearly stated none of this is going to happen.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: DmonSlyr on July 21, 2017, 10:57:23 AM
I am still trying to figure out why you guys are still posting about this, when we have clearly stated none of this is going to happen.

Still think the old perk for the TA-152, should have been replaced for the 190D. The 190D is just a pick demon that does nothing but aggravate other players, then they simply hit X and zoom away at any fear of trouble. Less of these planes would make a better fighting atmosphere.

If you look at the stats from this tour and last, you can see that the 190D has by far the second most kills under the P51D, and the highest K/D for un perked planes. It gets almost 2000 more kills a month than most other planes. The 190D can simply dive and run, and people flying don't turn, that's why it has such a better K/D than the P51D, yak, La7, and spit16. It's becoming a nuisance, and I do think it has an effect on the excitment level of the fights.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: puller on July 21, 2017, 11:05:40 AM
When I started playing in '05 I got destroyed...constantly...

But I liked the game...so I kept playing...and practicing...trying to get better...I wanted to play this game...so I tried...and learned...and have been constantly destroyed in this game for what...12 years now...

Here the point nug...there is nothing fair about this game...its a war game...you played for 2 weeks...YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE GAME...

If you want to play the game, how about you actually try to play it...play it the way it is designed now...THEN, think about changes you might like...

It really seems every time I play I figure out something new or do something I haven't done before or have done it before and forgotten about it :old:

Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: waystin2 on July 21, 2017, 11:10:32 AM
Still think the old perk for the TA-152, should have been replaced for the 190D. The 190D is just a pick demon that does nothing but aggravate other players, then they simply hit X and zoom away at any fear of trouble. Less of these planes would make a better fighting atmosphere.

If you look at the stats from this tour and last, you can see that the 190D has by far the second most kills under the P51D, and the highest K/D for un perked planes. It gets almost 2000 more kills a month than most other planes. The 190D can simply dive and run, and people flying don't turn, that's why it has such a better K/D than the P51D, yak, La7, and spit16. It's becoming a nuisance, and I do think it has an effect on the excitment level of the fights.

It's starting to sound like a whine.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: DmonSlyr on July 21, 2017, 11:14:36 AM
It's starting to sound like a whine.

You asked for proof and I gave one part of it.
Don't make me fly a 190D all next tour.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: waystin2 on July 21, 2017, 11:25:13 AM
You asked for proof and I gave one part of it.
Don't make me fly a 190D all next tour.
I do not care what you fly.  Have at it.  You are close to the truth though but a little off.  It's an ENY thing not Perks. The 190D-9 is long overdue for an ENY adjustment to a lower number.  The Yak-3 is probably also on the list for an adjustment to a lower ENY as well.  We'll see what happens....
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: bustr on July 21, 2017, 11:31:02 AM
Seems like at some point nuget will rail about participation trophy's to boost the self esteem of the disadvantaged newbies to keep them in the game. His perk system only incentivizes those with the least abilities. It screws all those who have achieved anything over the years expecting to operate in a pure merit based system because they earned their level of skill the hard way.

Nuget seems not to respect the achievers in any game from the ideas he is presenting.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: puller on July 21, 2017, 12:11:00 PM
You asked for proof and I gave one part of it.
Don't make me fly a 190D all next tour.

Do it  :rock

Its almost the first of the month too  :aok
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Ack-Ack on July 21, 2017, 12:44:44 PM
Still think the old perk for the TA-152, should have been replaced for the 190D. The 190D is just a pick demon that does nothing but aggravate other players, then they simply hit X and zoom away at any fear of trouble. Less of these planes would make a better fighting atmosphere.

If you look at the stats from this tour and last, you can see that the 190D has by far the second most kills under the P51D, and the highest K/D for un perked planes. It gets almost 2000 more kills a month than most other planes. The 190D can simply dive and run, and people flying don't turn, that's why it has such a better K/D than the P51D, yak, La7, and spit16. It's becoming a nuisance, and I do think it has an effect on the excitment level of the fights.

Again, you want the plane perked because the player in the Dora isn't fighting the way you want him to.  You'll never improve the game, nor attract players by trying to change how they fly and fight.


You asked for proof and I gave one part of it.
Don't make me fly a 190D all next tour.
According to the AH stats page, the Spitfire XVI has the 2nd most kills behind the P-51D for the last few tours that I've checked.  So your "proof" has been like your other "proofs", non-existent.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: lunatic1 on July 21, 2017, 01:08:03 PM
Quoted for truth.

well please sir lock it, it's getting redundant or already has.  PLEASE  enough is enough
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: DmonSlyr on July 21, 2017, 02:41:45 PM
Again, you want the plane perked because the player in the Dora isn't fighting the way you want him to.  You'll never improve the game, nor attract players by trying to change how they fly and fight.

According to the AH stats page, the Spitfire XVI has the 2nd most kills behind the P-51D for the last few tours that I've checked.  So your "proof" has been like your other "proofs", non-existent.

Notice the K/D difference. That reason is specifically correlated to the BnZ boring style of game play that plane promotes. It's  slightly less as good as a Temp. You might as well not even have a perk system. The noobs should just be allowed to fly Temps and 262s whenever they want so that they don't quit because hot shots get to fly one.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Ack-Ack on July 21, 2017, 04:17:34 PM
Notice the K/D difference. That reason is specifically correlated to the BnZ boring style of game play that plane promotes. It's  slightly less as good as a Temp. You might as well not even have a perk system. The noobs should just be allowed to fly Temps and 262s whenever they want so that they don't quit because hot shots get to fly one.

Unlike the Dora, the Tempest and Me 262 would cause a rather large game unbalance if unperked.

Your first sentence again just proves that your only intent is to try and make others fly how you want them to and not really a change to improve the game for everyone else.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: DmonSlyr on July 21, 2017, 08:13:11 PM
Unlike the Dora, the Tempest and Me 262 would cause a rather large game unbalance if unperked.

Your first sentence again just proves that your only intent is to try and make others fly how you want them to and not really a change to improve the game for everyone else.

Akak, I think you need to recheck the #s. The 190D got close to 1000 more kills last tour than the F4u1A, and the P47M, which have similar K/D ratios. The 190D has twice the kills of the F4U1C and U4 combined. It gets more than 5x the kills of the Temp and the 262, they have better K/Ds because typically better pilots fly them, and people fly them safer.  So it has one of the highest K/D of any non perked plane with a 1000 more kills a tour than the next best K/D non perked plane with a relative amount of kills. (Some planes have better K/D but only <500 kills.) Those are not considered to he "unbalancers" look at the Hurr1 yikes!  But the 190D has 1000 kills more than the P47M and they have similar K/Ds. That should tell you that the 190D does "unbalance" the fights. 
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: JimmyC on July 21, 2017, 08:41:32 PM
When I started playing in '05 I got destroyed...constantly...

But I liked the game...so I kept playing...and practicing...trying to get better...I wanted to play this game...so I tried...and learned...and have been constantly destroyed in this game for what...12 years now...

Here the point nug...there is nothing fair about this game...its a war game...you played for 2 weeks...YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE GAME...

If you want to play the game, how about you actually try to play it...play it the way it is designed now...THEN, think about changes you might like...

It really seems every time I play I figure out something new or do something I haven't done before or have done it before and forgotten about it :old:

This..

and nuglet if you like to grind so much get on grinder...
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: Zygote404 on July 21, 2017, 11:34:31 PM
Akak, I think you need to recheck the #s. The 190D got close to 1000 more kills last tour than the F4u1A, and the P47M, which have similar K/D ratios. The 190D has twice the kills of the F4U1C and U4 combined. It gets more than 5x the kills of the Temp and the 262, they have better K/Ds because typically better pilots fly them, and people fly them safer.  So it has one of the highest K/D of any non perked plane with a 1000 more kills a tour than the next best K/D non perked plane with a relative amount of kills. (Some planes have better K/D but only <500 kills.) Those are not considered to he "unbalancers" look at the Hurr1 yikes!  But the 190D has 1000 kills more than the P47M and they have similar K/Ds. That should tell you that the 190D does "unbalance" the fights.
I've found the TA a good counter to the 190D.   Interestingly while the majority use the D there are plenty of other types.  Likely because unlike the Spit XVI, LA7, Yak 3 and P51D the 190D doesnt do everything better than the earlier types.

While I understand Skuzzy saying why are we still talking about this it'll never happen I think given this is general discussion it doesn't hurt to discuss it and irrespective of whether you act on customer feedback its still extremely valuable to listen to it and take note of the points it raises.

While it'd be nice if all our customers expressed only positive views of products the most valuable feedback will always be the negative.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: bozon on July 22, 2017, 07:38:43 AM
Unlike the Dora, the Tempest and Me 262 would cause a rather large game unbalance if unperked.
They dont unbalance the game in the usual sense - if they are free then everyone can fly them and no one has the advantage. The perk system actually breaks this symmetry because not all players can afford them.

What unperking them would do, and we learned this from the CHog, is to force everyone to fly them. So free planes sometimes end up limiting plane choice - not by preventing players from choosing a less advanced plane, but by strongly discoraging them.

What is good for the chog and tempest can be good for the La7 and others, at a much reduced cost.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on August 06, 2017, 10:22:36 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/P2xtrQj.jpg)






Look the top 10 planes are late war energy fighters.


The p51d with 18k kills and 14k deaths is used most of them all....
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: The Fugitive on August 06, 2017, 11:20:57 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/P2xtrQj.jpg)






Look the top 10 planes are late war energy fighters.


The p51d with 18k kills and 14k deaths is used most of them all....

Yes it is, and that is what those players are paying their $15 to fly.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: atlau on August 06, 2017, 11:50:04 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/P2xtrQj.jpg)


Interesting stats and like all stats misleading. The f4u4 looks to be be than the f4u1c and the 190a8 is equal to the k4. The ah3 environment appears to favor firepower over balance.




Look the top 10 planes are late war energy fighters.


The p51d with 18k kills and 14k deaths is used most of them all....
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: DmonSlyr on August 06, 2017, 11:49:34 PM
They dont unbalance the game in the usual sense - if they are free then everyone can fly them and no one has the advantage. The perk system actually breaks this symmetry because not all players can afford them.

What unperking them would do, and we learned this from the CHog, is to force everyone to fly them. So free planes sometimes end up limiting plane choice - not by preventing players from choosing a less advanced plane, but by strongly discoraging them.

What is good for the chog and tempest can be good for the La7 and others, at a much reduced cost.


This is the correct answer. Less of the planes would equal better game play. We all know that some people will still fly them. less is more.
Title: Re: Why the disparity between aircraft and vehicle perks?
Post by: nugetx on August 18, 2017, 04:52:23 AM

This is the correct answer. Less of the planes would equal better game play. We all know that some people will still fly them. less is more.

 :rock