Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: AAIK on November 15, 2017, 11:32:47 AM
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I was just recollecting fights I have had and I saw some indicators of potential skill of my opponents based on the way they move and figured it would be an interesting topic. :joystick:
- From my view I noticed that the better pilots were more intense and gave of a sort of wavelength or pattern of reflexes that revealed their level of focus and I could measure it against my own capability and then come to a general conclusion how the fight will unravel before it has started.
Has anyone noticed any other behaviours that reveal the potential of opponents in here? :airplane:
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As soon as they do the "instant-reversal-spin-turn" I know I am dead. :O
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Has anyone noticed any other behaviours that reveal the potential of opponents in here?
Most obvious clue: If he HOs you, he's most likely a noob (or just lazy).
Second not-quite-so-obvious clue: If he goes into a slight dive on his way to the merge, he's dangerous.
- oldman (who is otherwise quite clueless)
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As soon as they do a simple lead turn in the vertical I know I am dead. :O
fixed... :noid
if you anticipate it or expect it, then your options suddenly increase :joystick: beyond, "what just happened?" and ending up in tower. :ahand :bhead
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If my opponent goes for an HO on any merge I assume they are completely terrible and that I'm going to win that fight very quickly unless they get a lucky hit while I'm moving to avoid the HO....which is why I give people a lot of crap about HOs...you literally give up the fight by taking the shot....it's too easy to gain an E advantage in the merge after they miss the HO shot. There's only a select few who it works out for because they have very good aim.
Most of the "good" pilots I know who I'm fighting once I see their merge....everyone has tells, mine is probably a reverse scissor I do pretty often where instead of rolling back to the right to turn back right, I roll left through inversion and turn back right.
But the thing which makes me know how good of a stick I'm flying against is timing...
Most of the community turns too early when they are trying to reverse someone...so they don't get the overshoot....some turn way to late....the good sticks force you into a fight even when you start on their six...or at least make you work for a shot.
Or when I'm in a E- situation the good sticks time yo yos and attacks better....a lot of you are too nervous and do these terrible High yo yos which just burn your E while not making me give up any of mine....which leads to you normally diving away and running to your ack.
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Most obvious clue: If he HOs you, he's most likely a noob (or just lazy).
Second not-quite-so-obvious clue: If he goes into a slight dive on his way to the merge, he's dangerous.
- oldman (who is otherwise quite clueless)
The dive into the merge I actually don't agree with anymore...a lot of people dive in hoping to get an angle but often give up too much E in the process....great example watch Skyyr's 1v1 videos...he doesnt dive into merges...but he beat most of the sticks people would have considered good.
Now a pilot like Joachim knows how to do both but his tell is when you get him in a near stall scissor...his nose does some "jigging" which I assume is the game trying to keep up with his rudder input or something but it works because he is for sure the best 1v1 stick I have faced.
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So much variance pilot to pilot but I pick up patterns of flight quickly. I can usually tell who it is by plane and flight style and act accordingly. I never enter into a fight thinking I will lose, otherwise it is already over. I do get my butt kicked on a regular basis but you won't nail me with the same maneuver twice. See you up there. Oink
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how quickly you end up in the tower?
How many nasty PM, cheat accusations you get?
How many youtube/facebook mentions of your questionable ability cant possibly be legit?
If the other guy survives more than 2 or 3 merges then you know he is worth his salt and those guys tend to take a bit more work. :aok
Case in point being a certain KI61 pilot in the latest frame of the scenario. He was prepared to turn in which compared to his colleagues told me he wanted to fight. We enter a diving rolling scissor and I'm thinking there is only one person who can fly that bird so nicely but I'm going to stick with him in these rolls because I know when the KI61 gets slow to stall speed it loses its finesse. Without knowing who I killed I would have bet my house on it being Tongs needless to say the logs confirmed it the next day. Hehe. :salute
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There are no good pilots - only really bad moves by me. :old:
Also, there are no spoons, only dull full forks :old:
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I am skilled in "pile-it"-ing myself into the ground.
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First clue is aircraft selection. LA7, Yak3, Spit16, P-51D, are often sign of a player that either is weak or marginal. When you see that unusual icon C2, P-40, KI61 and some others that you know you’re facing a potential killer.
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If the La7 is flying slow and steady begging you to get closer, it's shane, and the next move may be your last.
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Does blowing up spawing on the runway when there is no one around count? :P
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First clue is aircraft selection. LA7, Yak3, Spit16, P-51D, are often sign of a player that either is weak or marginal. When you see that unusual icon C2, P-40, KI61 and some others that you know you’re facing a potential killer.
This could get you in trouble making too many assumptions based on plane type. See an La7-it might a some one great like a Kappa, a runner like a Hoagi, or a newb that needs the engine and the cannon. I do not know many Yak3 pilots that impress me, but you get the point. See a Spit16 it could be someone scary like Bruv, or someone who will flip-flop and HO on every pass like FLipTH, or a new player that needs the performance envelope the plane provides. Not too many great pony drivers left in game nowadays mostly hit and runners so you may be close to the truth here. There are some players that have mastered planes not listed that are down right scary to deal with. :uhoh So I try to assume the most difficult opponent possible is in each plane until they are not.
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kazaa used to fly the spit 16 all the time, I very rarely use it and IF I do its to load 3 bombs, evade all the Bish vulching the runway, drop as many GVS I can in town then single handedly wrestle any planes that decide to shoot at me.
Spit 5/8/9 is where its at in that regard.
But your right I treat every single plane like its the best ever AI pilot robot that is seconds away from killing me anything else leads to mistakes.
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Mechanic was a GREAT Pony driver. He was a good guy too. Needs to come back.
I know skill when I see it, but can't put a finger on what denotes it. I get beat by everyone, and once in a while, I do something right, but not often.
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I was just recollecting fights I have had and I saw some indicators of potential skill of my opponents based on the way they move and figured it would be an interesting topic. :joystick:
- From my view I noticed that the better pilots were more intense and gave of a sort of wavelength or pattern of reflexes that revealed their level of focus and I could measure it against my own capability and then come to a general conclusion how the fight will unravel before it has started.
Has anyone noticed any other behaviours that reveal the potential of opponents in here? :airplane:
Obviously, whoever is ranked #1 is the best. :bolt:
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some players have an eerie smoothness and always seem to have more energy than you think they should at any given moment.
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Obviously, whoever is ranked #1 is the best. :bolt:
(https://zippy.gfycat.com/GorgeousLoathsomeHarrierhawk.gif)
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Obviously, whoever is ranked #1 is the best. :bolt:
(https://zippy.gfycat.com/GorgeousLoathsomeHarrierhawk.gif)
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For me its how aggressive they are and the timing of their maneuvers. I also look at how they merge and the way they approach me. 95% of the time I have to dodge a HO, so I know they most likely don't have the same timing as me after they miss. I typically roll one way and then the other to get them to miss the HO shot. If a player does that to avoid a HO, hes probably pretty good. If the player avoids the HO, and pulls a very hard emmilman, he probably is pretty decent. Are they getting flaps out quickly? Are they smooth in their rolls? Are they using throttle? These are very fast decisions and things to watch for to tell the relative skill level of the person you are fighting in the MA. The plane also has a big impact on what the player can get away with. I know for example, if i'm in a 109G14 and they are in a yak3, they wont be able to out roll me or out turn me no matter how good they think they are. That being said, I would fight the 109 in a yak3 assuming the player doesnt have the skill as me, as it's a very close fight. I might kill him even tho his 109 should technically out turn me. That's measuring skill and whether you think you have the skill to out turn them or not, even if your plane isn't as good. Planes do matter, so you do have to take that into consideration when fighting the opponent.
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First clue is aircraft selection. LA7, Yak3, Spit16, P-51D, are often sign of a player that either is weak or marginal. When you see that unusual icon C2, P-40, KI61 and some others that you know you’re facing a potential killer.
That is true, and also works for older variants of models. I am always very careful around less popular but very capable planes like 109F/G2, La5, P38G, Spit9. They are usually flown by vetrans.
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The Yak3 can hang on its prop pretty good and doesn't have to worry about running out of WEP. I'd definitely fight a 109 in the vert with that rather than attempting to turn with it.
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everyone hates the HO, but as someone that loves to fly the Jug I will often risk the HO, especially after a water cooled foe, in a bad situation because I know that big engine in front of me can take a lot of punishment.
Todd
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As I see it every red plane at merge is a vet. Not until the second merge can I tell if someone is deadly. I don't ho but many good sticks do.
For me it's easier to tell if I am at a disadvantage which is a lot of my time in the air. If a con above me is timid or trys to E fight without cutting throttle then I can take my time build E and stay safe. The deadly guys will cut throttle drop and not overshoot. Then your fk
With out player numbers like the old days more than likely you will be facing a vet. If it's me then your fk..
More you die the better you get and watch all the film you can. A solid player will have a kill to death of over 4 and kph of higher than 31 That's what I look for in the stats.
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If it's a decent stick in a crutch plane like a spit 16 it's probably FX1
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It's easier for bomber pilots: Is the enemy slowly crawling up your six, or does he takes his time to get into a proper position. :airplane:
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As I see it every red plane at merge is a vet. Not until the second merge can I tell if someone is deadly. I don't ho but many good sticks do.
For me it's easier to tell if I am at a disadvantage which is a lot of my time in the air. If a con above me is timid or trys to E fight without cutting throttle then I can take my time build E and stay safe. The deadly guys will cut throttle drop and not overshoot. Then your fk
With out player numbers like the old days more than likely you will be facing a vet. If it's me then your fk..
More you die the better you get and watch all the film you can. A solid player will have a kill to death of over 4 and kph of higher than 31 That's what I look for in the stats.
K/D > 3 usually means someone timid. There are exceptions but they are rare.
YMMV
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4 kd and over .030 kills per hour you can't be timid. Those two shows the type of player better than all the other stats.
I also feel some players fly low eny planes for a excuse they got beat. So back on the subject I see no red flags just because it's a p40b. On the other hand if I see a 410 one player comes to mind that is active in the game.
Poop
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some sticks are hard to figure out as they only flying in large groups on certain nights chest thumping about there abilities to pick and swarm :bolt: time for a ham and bacon samich
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2 spit pilots in this thread have been beaten in 1v1s by earlier model spits.
I'll let you guess the 2.
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I also feel some players fly low eny planes for a excuse they got beat.
I didn't realize my motives were so transparent!
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The dive into the merge I actually don't agree with anymore...a lot of people dive in hoping to get an angle but often give up too much E in the process....great example watch Skyyr's 1v1 videos...he doesnt dive into merges...but he beat most of the sticks people would have considered good.
The only caveat being he used the Combat Trim 'exploit' which I think none of his opponents did so he ALWAYS had a slight energy advantage in the merge. The P-38 was notably a different animal for his approach.
Also in dissimilar aircraft you might have to match the dive-in to some extent depending on the initial energy state or you're giving away angles in an unwanted lead-turn.
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The only caveat being he used the Combat Trim 'exploit' which I think none of his opponents did so he ALWAYS had a slight energy advantage in the merge. The P-38 was notably a different animal for his approach.
Also in dissimilar aircraft you might have to match the dive-in to some extent depending on the initial energy state or you're giving away angles in an unwanted lead-turn.
I dont use this combat trim exploit and his merge worked against some of the top sticks that are still active in my recent 1v1s....I don't think it's a fluke it's a legit merge tactic....that being said it's easily spotted because you don't dive into the merge.
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I dont use this combat trim exploit and his merge worked against some of the top sticks that are still active in my recent 1v1s....I don't think it's a fluke it's a legit merge tactic....that being said it's easily spotted because you don't dive into the merge.
It will no doubt conserve because you're not going through two entropic conversions! Assuming you can hold the defensive in the top position. I was merely reminding the other factor upon which said player depended :)
How about some nice films to discuss Junky? :banana:
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Combat trim exploit? You mean manually trimming your plane, or is there something nefarious about this? :headscratch:
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I dont duel much, but I will accept any 1on1 that comes along in the MA. The reasons to come low on the merge are twofold:
1. If the other guy does not match my alt it leaves me room to lead turn from below into his belly.
2. I alway value speed more than altitude (up to a limit specific to my plane). For a given total energy, between potential and kinetic, I want my energy in cash thank you very much. :old:
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What Combat trim exploit?
Trimming vs holding stick in AH outputs exactly the same results.
HiTech
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I dont use this combat trim exploit and his merge worked against some of the top sticks that are still active in my recent 1v1s....I don't think it's a fluke it's a legit merge tactic....that being said it's easily spotted because you don't dive into the merge.
There was no exploit...he would come straight at you...and if you didn't turn he would HO you (and he was a got shot)...if you did turn off to avoid he has the advantage because his whole intention was to go up and get higher than you....his way he didn't have to lose any speed what so ever. From there in his 190 or LA he would just continue the same tactic over and over...when he lost that advantage he was gone
The thing he had going for him was he had a real bead on aim....he could finish a fight fast with some great aim... how he did it like others who have spectacular aim is beyond my comprehension sometimes....
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Combat trim exploit? You mean manually trimming your plane, or is there something nefarious about this? :headscratch:
People need something to excuse their suckage. Kind of like the guy who HO's everyone then dies to a HO, then cries on 200...
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There was no exploit...he would come straight at you...and if you didn't turn he would HO you (and he was a got shot)...if you did turn off to avoid he has the advantage because his whole intention was to go up and get higher than you....his way he didn't have to lose any speed what so ever. From there in his 190 or LA he would just continue the same tactic over and over...when he lost that advantage he was gone
The thing he had going for him was he had a real bead on aim....he could finish a fight fast with some great aim... how he did it like others who have spectacular aim is beyond my comprehension sometimes....
I actually went to the DA with him and he didn't HO...but at the time I tried to merge by diving in and every time he was gaining an E advantage....it worked. I agree his aim was what made him able to do certain maneuvers I won't do because if I missed those shots, I would be far out of position.
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HT, at really high speeds, the only way to have full control is to use combat trim. Otherwise you are fighting the nose going up.
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HT, at really high speeds, the only way to have full control is to use combat trim. Otherwise you are fighting the nose going up.
This is not an exploit and available to all players and happens in all planes. They'll either try and go nose high from lift generated by the speed, or they'll compress in. Either way, you need to use trim to help gain control back of the plane. Real planes have trim nobs too!
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What Combat trim exploit?
Trimming vs holding stick in AH outputs exactly the same results.
HiTech
HiTech I have a question...
Let's say you're in an La7, or any semi-very powerful fighter really, and you're climbing straight up. As you reach the height of your climb you want to nose over to the right, against the torque. Would it be possible to do this using just the force of the prop wash on the rudder? Or would the torque overpower the rudder and pull you with it to the left?
I ask this because as it is in game now, the torque will over power the rudder every time and drag you with it to the left, even at idle throttle. Only when you turn the engine off can you use the rudder to nose over against the torque. This doesn't make much sense to me as there wouldn't be any force against the rudder with your engine off.
Skyyr would use this as an exploit, shutting your engine off at stall speed gives you a huge advantage when you want to maneuver opposite the torque. I'm not saying there should be a penalty for shutting your engine off, I'm just curious as to how accurate the slow speed torque modeling is in that regard.
Sorry if I went off topic a bit.
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Krup you dont need to turn the engine off to accomplish that feat. As I remember, greebo, in his f6f used to pull that trick off all the time with the prop still running. Would catch you by suprise every time.
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Yes I know, what I'm saying is that it's extremely easy to do when you shut the engine off and there's no airflow hitting the rudder, that's a bit confusing.
Also not every plane can do it with the engine on, try it in an La7, K4, Yak, or any fighter with a lot of slow speed torque. The F6F isn't one of those.
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HT, at really high speeds, the only way to have full control is to use combat trim. Otherwise you are fighting the nose going up.
You can either use combat trim to get pretty close to in trim, or you can manually trim nose-down too. If memory serves, there are some planes at extreme speed you need to manually trim down or the nose rises. Is that what you're referring to?
Another oddity is a Tempest won't fly straight with combat trim until you hit about 200mph. Below that, it rolls and yaws a bit.
Wiley.
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Well, its kind of like; you want the nose to go down (at around 450+) and it wont snap down unless you pop on the combat trim. Even the regular trim just sluggishly and sparesly makes a difference, it doesnt react as quickly.
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There's two things.
Control speed. While the output is the same, the automatic control is much faster than the human control. Especially on the rudder, CT can reduce drag beyond what the human being can do. A rudder-only CT would be a real advantage.
Real trim tabs. Trimming in the same direction as stick input does not increase the output. On the contrary, depending on how the trimming works in the plane. Normal trim tabs extend at the end of the control surface, and move in the opposite direction. Trimming nose up makes the trim tab go down, which in turn makes the control surface go up (pushing the tail down, and the nose up). As a consequence, trimming into the desired output reduces the effective size of the control surface. Making it easier to move, but also reducing the effective output at maximum deflection.
(anecdotal evidence: At least one real POH advises against trimming nose down for inverted maneuvers to retain the maximum effect.)
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Well, its kind of like; you want the nose to go down (at around 450+) and it wont snap down unless you pop on the combat trim. Even the regular trim just sluggishly and sparesly makes a difference, it doesnt react as quickly.
Ah. The reason for that is because CT uses a table to set the trims, so if your trim is a ways out of whack and you push the CT button, it instantly (more or less?) changes the trims to match the current plane speed. Button-push manual trim does move more slowly.
I pretty much always leave CT on until I get below 200mph. Then I like to turn it off as I find my stall fighting is smoother with it off, it's easier to hold near blackout than with it on.
Wiley.
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I actually went to the DA with him and he didn't HO...but at the time I tried to merge by diving in and every time he was gaining an E advantage....it worked. I agree his aim was what made him able to do certain maneuvers I won't do because if I missed those shots, I would be far out of position.
To be fair I never DA'd him...never had any need to. I only DA with guys I like...If you're a tool in my eyes the DA will never make you a utensil :grin:
I always found if you didn't go down and away he would have got you under the belly or with an acute angle front quarter shot or at least an attempt...or he would have extended and climbed while he watched if / how you went up...many would pull an immelman... he would then just climb fast and higher turn into you and start again. He managed his E well
his low speed handling was no better than anyone else he could just finish well and at the top of climbs he was annoying with that engine off thing hahaha ( mainly because part of my SA is sound when in a fight like that looking around to ensure others aren't inbd...and if the engine goes off I had no idea where he was).... But when I fought with him...I had just as many opportunities to kill him...I just don't have the skill of aim... he did.... give him the shot...no matter how slim and boom.... very much like Grizz with the aim...although I do believe Grizz had better aim...he didn't seem to miss as much
Plane choice is obviously a factor but not an excuse... he wasn't always precise
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Well, its kind of like; you want the nose to go down (at around 450+) and it wont snap down unless you pop on the combat trim. Even the regular trim just sluggishly and sparesly makes a difference, it doesnt react as quickly.
Wait are you saying you can change trim...then snap back to combat trim to give better maneuvering? Like you can maneuver quicker then someone who uses trim or just uses combat trim?
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There's two things.
CT can reduce drag beyond what the human being can do.
It can not. Trim in AH has no drag effect. Using trim in a real plane can both increase or decrease drag depending on both the system (not all planes have trim tabs some like 109 have movable stab) and the position of the tab.
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Real trim tabs. Trimming in the same direction as stick input does not increase the output.
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It does not in ah either, but if you are limited by the force of stick pull, then trimming does effectively increase output.
HiTech
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To be fair I never DA'd him...
I did. For one reason or another, I never had any trouble with him, personally. He won all of the matches we flew, using different planes, including my favorite 202. I've never met anyone who had a greater mastery of energy management. And, of course, he never saw a HO that he didn't like.
- oldman
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First clue is aircraft selection. LA7, Yak3, Spit16, P-51D, are often sign of a player that either is weak or marginal. When you see that unusual icon C2, P-40, KI61 and some others that you know you’re facing a potential killer.
Or it is BigR in a Mustang in which case you'll need six friends to help kill him.
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everyone hates the HO, but as someone that loves to fly the Jug I will often risk the HO, especially after a water cooled foe, in a bad situation because I know that big engine in front of me can take a lot of punishment.
Todd
I like to do the HO feint. Then they get distracted wondering why I didn't actually shoot which puts me inside their OODA loop. :D
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First clue is aircraft selection. LA7, Yak3, Spit16, P-51D, are often sign of a player that either is weak or marginal.
You could add the P-47M to that list.
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You could add the P-47M to that list.
Only if MA most fights took place @ 25k or more.
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Only if MA most fights took place @ 25k or more.
Meh, it's a beast at all alts
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Meh, it's a beast at all alts
Well you’re going to have to educate me then. I obviously have no clue what the 47M is capable of. I clearly never fly Jugs and am not any kind of authority on the subject at all.
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Well you’re going to have to educate me then. I obviously have no clue what the 47M is capable of. I clearly never fly Jugs and am not any kind of authority on the subject at all.
....from the jug man who regularly kicks my butt when he's flying a jug..... :bolt:
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I obviously have no clue what the 47M is capable of. I clearly never fly Jugs and am not any kind of authority on the subject at all.
Yeah, me neither.
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Well you’re going to have to educate me then.
Here, learn on this. When you say you automatically think someone who flys a late-war monster like (Yak, Pony, Spixteen, LA) has no skill/marginal skill, it's kinda funny to me because you yourself fly a late-war monster in the P-47M all the time. If you don't think the P-47M is uber like the others, maybe you should spend some time in the others to familiarize yourself with them. I think you'll find they're not so different.
Also, would you say Fess is 'marginal'? I know he flys a P-51D alot.
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Actually lilmak does fly other models (god help me I’m defending lilmak lol). We had a great fight the other night on furball island. Lilmak was in a d11 and I was in a 202. One of the best fights I have had in a long while. No HOs, no running, nothing cheap. I wish it would have went to the end but a countryman picked lilmak in a cannon bird.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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By “others“ I mean the other late war uber rides
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What Combat trim exploit?
He whose name must not be mentioned believed he could gain more alt in the zoom:-
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,357126.0.html
Trimming vs holding stick in AH outputs exactly the same results.
I think the gist of it was that nose-high CT on tried to pull the plane into a gentle loop and countering that with slight forward pressure cost more drag.
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Here, learn on this. When you say you automatically think someone who flys a late-war monster like (Yak, Pony, Spixteen, LA) has no skill/marginal skill, it's kinda funny to me because you yourself fly a late-war monster in the P-47M all the time. If you don't think the P-47M is uber like the others, maybe you should spend some time in the others to familiarize yourself with them. I think you'll find they're not so different.
Also, would you say Fess is 'marginal'? I know he flys a P-51D alot.
I know I would OWN any Jug in an LA/Spit/Yak and the 51 can run at will. Fess isn’t your typical 51 pilot. He will do other than pick.
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The P47M is a great plane, but I wouldn't put it in the "elite" category. It's very weak in the defense down low n slow. Very difficult for the P47 to accelerate quickly. It's not a good plane for base defense. It's a big plane, and can't easily escape if it gets lower than the fight. I'd much rather see P47Ms flying around than 190Ds, which typically get 2000 more kills a month than the P47M with the same K/D. The P51 is a better plane all around. The thing that makes American planes a little more challenging is the patience of getting alt and maintaining E, and the 50 cals that don't down planes very quickly. In 1v1s there are many better planes. All the 5 eny planes besides a Temp could beat it in a 1v1 pretty easily. Id say it really does take a person who knows what they are doing to fly a P47 well. Many get picked and ganged pretty quickly. So I wouldn't call it an elite plane by any means. Just a solid plane overall for the MA if you know what you are doing.
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I disagree. I would put the Jug M right in with them. It’s surviveability and lethality are close enough to being on par and the differences are negligible. Not speaking for everyone but I, personally, find the Jug M just as easy to kill and stay alive in as a Pony. Maybe not as surviveable, but definitely more lethal. Again, the difference is negligible. IMO
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All planes can be easy if you fly them a certain way...some planes easier then others...the Brewster in my eyes is almost as easy as the Spit 16 but most would disagree. Yak 3 and LA7 are very close in how easy they are. P47 is very close to the P51...but both of them are harder then the F4Us
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He whose name must not be mentioned believed he could gain more alt in the zoom:-
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,357126.0.html
I think the gist of it was that nose-high CT on tried to pull the plane into a gentle loop and countering that with slight forward pressure cost more drag.
And that assumption is incorrect.
HiTech
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And that assumption is incorrect.
After your question I quickly tried to do an experiment but I could find no retention advantage in either mode. I apologise for propagating unverified claims from what turn out to be disreputable sources. :cheers:
All planes can be easy if you fly them a certain way...
Well said. I guess people's definition of fighting varies a lot. If you keep a P-47M relatively (to everything else) high and fast then it's a beast, but if you get co-e and start manoeuvring it's generally disadvantaged. If I see an opponent doing then that's a good tell the player has some skill. Some move that big old bird pretty admirably.
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Here, learn on this. When you say you automatically think someone who flys a late-war monster like (Yak, Pony, Spixteen, LA) has no skill/marginal skill, it's kinda funny to me because you yourself fly a late-war monster in the P-47M all the time. If you don't think the P-47M is uber like the others, maybe you should spend some time in the others to familiarize yourself with them. I think you'll find they're not so different.
Also, would you say Fess is 'marginal'? I know he flys a P-51D alot.
Burn. :ahand
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I know I would OWN any Jug in an LA/Spit/Yak and the 51 can run at will. Fess isn’t your typical 51 pilot. He will do other than pick.
This comment is typical of anyone who dies to a Mustang. The presumption contained within is not accurate.
(Fess is excellent, not disputing that.)
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This comment is typical of anyone who dies to a Mustang. The presumption contained within is not accurate.
(Fess is excellent, not disputing that.)
no any pony that decides to fight, notice the FIGHT word, not the come in with three other ponies and dive at 500 mph until you loose e retiton and then run back to the base. join Fess one night when he is on and watch him throw that thing around, it will remind of you of what youre exwife use to do to you, and the best part.....no 6 yo allowed
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While there are a few hot sticks that fly the best fighters, the typical La7, P51 and spit pilots that you run into are below average, and thank god for that. If all vetrans stuck to the few best fighters it would be very difficult to do well in older models.
One ace in an La7 I can deal with. A whole squadron of vetran players in La7s will close the MA. Nothing prevent some squadrons from flying 262s nearly all of the time for many tours - they don't, because this will #### up the game.
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Nothing prevent some squadrons from flying 262s nearly all of the time for many tours
Perk price does :old:
You can really tear quickly through tens of thousands of perks when you are really doing this for ' many tours.' I once did a Me 262 tour like that, and it did cost me around 4000 perks.
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It can not. Trim in AH has no drag effect. Using trim in a real plane can both increase or decrease drag depending on both the system (not all planes have trim tabs some like 109 have movable stab) and the position of the tab.
It's not the trim, its the plane flying clean. CT is pretty quick to put the rudder where it belongs. The same is true for the auto-pilots. Out-climbing them manually is basically impossible, as perfect as they work.
Real trim tabs. Trimming in the same direction as stick input does not increase the output.
It does not in ah either, but if you are limited by the force of stick pull, then trimming does effectively increase output.
Testcase: P38 (not much rudder to worry about for the test), inverted, slow'ish (100-120 mph), level flight with full stick foward deflection. Trimming (while maintaining full stick foward) moves the nose up/down. Trimming nose down pushes the invered nose up, and vice versa.
Is it really stick force limited at that slow speed? Is there any way to see what its limited to?
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I think it really takes a show of skill to fly planes that simply cannot run away from any other plane in the MA. Flying the fastest planes never teaches defensive maneuvers and counter evasive tactics. Sure, E fighting and BnZ does take skill in its own regard, but it limits those abilities of being able to fight when enemies are above you. Flying mid war or slower aircraft in MA generally requires a bit more undertsanding of the game and SA, and will also help you become a better pilot overall.
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I just fly.
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no any pony that decides to fight, notice the FIGHT word, not the come in with three other ponies and dive at 500 mph until you loose e retiton and then run back to the base. join Fess one night when he is on and watch him throw that thing around, it will remind of you of what youre exwife use to do to you, and the best part.....no 6 yo allowed
I flew with Fess for years.
I'm well aware of his capabilities.
He is the best there is at thinking out a fight. He doesn't succeed on pure dogfighting ability. It's much more than that.
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While there are a few hot sticks that fly the best fighters, the typical La7, P51 and spit pilots that you run into are below average, and thank god for that. If all vetrans stuck to the few best fighters it would be very difficult to do well in older models.
One ace in an La7 I can deal with. A whole squadron of vetran players in La7s will close the MA. Nothing prevent some squadrons from flying 262s nearly all of the time for many tours - they don't, because this will #### up the game.
The Mustang has to create angles to win and if there are multiple cons on you, esp. with alt, you will die.
I can bend a Mustang with anyone. But then I'm low and slow with people piling in on top. I do not have the gunnery or the knowledge of angle creation to survive that situation. Few do.
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The thing he had going for him was he had a real bead on aim....he could finish a fight fast with some great aim... how he did it like others who have spectacular aim is beyond my comprehension sometimes....
This.
He had good ACM but this is what he truly excelled at
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This.
He had good ACM but this is what he truly excelled at
I wish I could figure out the aim thing. I get terrible nose bounce.
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Aiming really has a lot to do with how good your Joystick/Rudder pedals are, aside from that setting up a good curve near the center of your joystick and learning how to properly lead a deflection shot are very important too.
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Aiming really has a lot to do with how good your Joystick/Rudder pedals are, aside from that setting up a good curve near the center of your joystick and learning how to properly lead a deflection shot are very important too.
I may have to hit you up for pointers on that. I'm using the default settings for controls and my stick is ancient (MS SW).
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How I assess skill,1 does the player fly smooth,2 which way does he turn( turn nose down/nose up or just does a flat turn),then 3 does the player keep his lift vector aimed at me.
Just the other night I was working with a player,within a couple minutes I knew he was skilled and had to switch planes to compete,granted he was in a Ki43 but usually it doesnt matter what the other player flies.In this case I had to hop into a zero just to keep up with the turn ability of the 43.
Being smooth is the real tell,most fly and are very abrupt in their maneuvers,this burns energy and often causes accelerated stalls. An old friend used to tell me"smooth is fast,fast is good"!
A plane is a plane,2 wings and a prop,what you fly doesnt matter,how you fly does!
YMMV!
:salute
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I may have to hit you up for pointers on that.
Ditto. Krup, it'd be cool if you pulled up that thread Grizz wrote up on shooting/accuracy, and put your own methods and tips into it. Same goes for Jo, Bruv, Junky, Perd, all the other really good ACM/Shooters. Or, just start a new one, but as much as ACM/BFM/E/etc, accurate and consistent shooting is a critical part of being a potential FPH IMO.
Krupinski, you use the Warthog stick IIRC - have you done anything with it, so far as pulling it apart and doing any of the grease/tuning stuff that is out there? I'd be real interested to see your in game stick settings for it.
Regarding Skyyr, despite his personality...quirks...he was absolutely one of the top pilots in the game in my opinion while he was here. It's regrettable what he did too, as every game needs a villain, and he played that part to perfection. Junky mentioned something earlier about a lot of guys getting too freaked out in the rope part of the E fight, and pulling too hard, too soon, etc. Skyyr helped me out with that a couple times in the DA as it's something I was doing (and still do) too frequently. I fly the Ki43 mostly, and it's at least as much a crutch as any Spit/Brew, even worse if you ask me, as just some hard pulls and good SA can inflate your numbers well beyond your actual skill - at least it does for me. Makes for developing bad habits, especially when I fly the K4, which is probably about 40% of my time when I'm playing
So many subtle little things you need to be good at, and when you run into someone that IS actually good at all of them, it exposes your weaknesses pretty quickly.
Regarding the P51 posts - BigR is one of the best P51 pilots I've seen, flew some DA with him a couple years back, really great at teaching it too.
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Ditto. Krup, it'd be cool if you pulled up that thread Grizz wrote up on shooting/accuracy, and put your own methods and tips into it. Same goes for Jo, Bruv, Junky, Perd, all the other really good ACM/Shooters. Or, just start a new one, but as much as ACM/BFM/E/etc, accurate and consistent shooting is a critical part of being a potential FPH IMO.
Krupinski, you use the Warthog stick IIRC - have you done anything with it, so far as pulling it apart and doing any of the grease/tuning stuff that is out there? I'd be real interested to see your in game stick settings for it.
Regarding Skyyr, despite his personality...quirks...he was absolutely one of the top pilots in the game in my opinion while he was here. It's regrettable what he did too, as every game needs a villain, and he played that part to perfection. Junky mentioned something earlier about a lot of guys getting too freaked out in the rope part of the E fight, and pulling too hard, too soon, etc. Skyyr helped me out with that a couple times in the DA as it's something I was doing (and still do) too frequently. I fly the Ki43 mostly, and it's at least as much a crutch as any Spit/Brew, even worse if you ask me, as just some hard pulls and good SA can inflate your numbers well beyond your actual skill - at least it does for me. Makes for developing bad habits, especially when I fly the K4, which is probably about 40% of my time when I'm playing
So many subtle little things you need to be good at, and when you run into someone that IS actually good at all of them, it exposes your weaknesses pretty quickly.
Regarding the P51 posts - BigR is one of the best P51 pilots I've seen, flew some DA with him a couple years back, really great at teaching it too.
While I think skyyr was excellent in the E game, and was decent in 1v1s because of his merge. He hid behind very fast planes in the MA: 190D, La7, and was weak defensively in the MA and 1v1. He could not land many kills in midwar planes and would get picked a lot even in faster planes. He flew a lot of sorties in very fast planes with a rather low K/D. To me skyyr did prove why the 190D is such a nuisance. Flying the fastest planes in the game does give you a nice advantage in the MA.
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While I think skyyr was excellent in the E game, and was decent in 1v1s because of his merge. He hid behind very fast planes in the MA: 190D, La7, and was weak defensively in the MA and 1v1. He could not land many kills in midwar planes and would get picked a lot even in faster planes. He flew a lot of sorties in very fast planes with a rather low K/D. To me skyyr did prove why the 190D is such a nuisance. Flying the fastest planes in the game does give you a nice advantage in the MA.
In fairness you should reveal the score when you DA'ed him...
His low K/D was primarily due to the fact he was not afraid to engage, regardless of the odds. He would take on a horde by himself all the time.
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In fairness you should reveal the score when you DA'ed him...
His low K/D was primarily due to the fact he was not afraid to engage, regardless of the odds. He would take on a horde by himself all the time.
Yeah, he only scored when he could out rope on the merge...I didn't say he was bad 1v1, but still had much to learn in the slow fight.
Skyyr was not very patient and that was the main reason he died a lot flying the fastest planes in the game. He had a hard time flying midwar planes in the MA because he had a hard time escaping the fight if he couldn't extend away.
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Yeah, he only scored when he could out rope on the merge...I didn't say he was bad 1v1, but still had much to learn in the slow fight.
Skyyr was not very patient and that was the main reason he died a lot flying the fastest planes in the game. He had a hard time flying midwar planes in the MA because he had a hard time escaping the fight if he couldn't extend away.
When it is 5:1 you need a fast plane to survive. That's how I manage. I can't create angles like BigR and don't have the gunnery of most here, so I survive by hoarding energy and knowing when to bug.
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I have terrible aim any of my success comes from winning the fight.
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I think it really takes a show of skill to fly planes that simply cannot run away from any other plane in the MA. Flying the fastest planes never teaches defensive maneuvers and counter evasive tactics. Sure, E fighting and BnZ does take skill in its own regard, but it limits those abilities of being able to fight when enemies are above you. Flying mid war or slower aircraft in MA generally requires a bit more undertsanding of the game and SA, and will also help you become a better pilot overall.
Yes but the problem with flying the slower planes is you cant catch the faster planes that run away.
Its why I stopped flying the 109f
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I wish I could figure out the aim thing. I get terrible nose bounce.
I have the same issues. there were LOTS of times I should have had kills on Skyyr and many others but but my aim. This becomes a problem when fighting the better top tier players because you eitehr often dont get a second chance. or the shot you get is one where either you make the shot and win. Or miss the shot and end up at a disadvantage in which case you die. Skyyr used to make the shots on the latter.
I think my single largest issue was stick spiking. Now its either the age of my PC. AND/or some kind of weird lag because shots while Im not an uber shot I normally used to make as a matter of routine my rounds now often miss even at a dead 6 at 400 out. Im even having problems hitting stationary field ack now rounds seem to be hitting short
Either that or HTC somehow changed the trajectory or dummied down the D9s 20 mil
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While I think skyyr was excellent in the E game, and was decent in 1v1s because of his merge. He hid behind very fast planes in the MA: 190D, La7, and was weak defensively in the MA and 1v1. He could not land many kills in midwar planes and would get picked a lot even in faster planes. He flew a lot of sorties in very fast planes with a rather low K/D. To me skyyr did prove why the 190D is such a nuisance. Flying the fastest planes in the game does give you a nice advantage in the MA.
While he did occasionally fly the D-9 he mostly flew the 152. Then the La7 as his primary rides. Not the D-9
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Either that or HTC somehow changed the trajectory or dummied down the D9s 20 mil
Are you flying with the new default forward view, looking down? The view of the gun sight is slightly skewed compared to the old default view where it was centered.
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While he did occasionally fly the D-9 he mostly flew the 152. Then the La7 as his primary rides. Not the D-9
As StarFox he flew the 152 but as Skyyr he was nothing but the Dora or LA7 for the most part.
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Some veteran squad's have 20-30k perkies per person . Pipz had close to 50k ...
Flying 262 in squad formations would, like Bozon said, ruin the MA.
At east half of LD fly EN16+ planes as standard.
Perk price does :old:
You can really tear quickly through tens of thousands of perks when you are really doing this for ' many tours.' I once did a Me 262 tour like that, and it did cost me around 4000 perks.
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Some veteran squad's have 20-30k perkies per person . Pipz had close to 50k ...
If someone has 50k of perks, something tells me he ain't interested in flying jets in the first place. ;)
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While he did occasionally fly the D-9 he mostly flew the 152. Then the La7 as his primary rides. Not the D-9
When I flew with him he (we) flew the Dora a lot. Maybe he transitioned to the 152 over time. :headscratch:
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When I flew with him he (we) flew the Dora a lot. Maybe he transitioned to the 152 over time. :headscratch:
Or, linked his new shade to another ride in order to fool the masses. Didn't work out very well :old:
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If someone has 50k of perks, something tells me he ain't interested in flying jets in the first place. ;)
True. As Save said, we tend to fly med-to-high ENY planes. I roll jets only to hunt other jets. Usually they run away as soon as they get the word that another jet is on the prawl. I end up strafing tanks and wirbles and dying. I dont recall the last time I landed a jet. With around 24k of perk points I dont give a damn. If I were to fly it regularly, I'd try to RTB occasinally.
The point of the 262 argument was that a bunch of above average players in dominant fighters can ruin the game of anyone not willing to match their uber rides.
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Usually they run away as soon as they get the word that another jet is on the prawl..
Because we do not have those thousands of perks to shrug it off. :old: Each time I die in a 262, I'm more or less back to zero. Ten years ago, it was far easier to get those perks, so I could afford using the jet to pork ammo bunkers :D
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Or, linked his new shade to another ride in order to fool the masses. Didn't work out very well :old:
"Oh gosh darn it" :rofl :rofl :rofl
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As StarFox he flew the 152 but as Skyyr he was nothing but the Dora or LA7 for the most part.
Skyyr and I had a running war with one another for quite some time. I mostly saw him. that is 90% of the time in a 152. Not the dora
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Are you flying with the new default forward view, looking down? The view of the gun sight is slightly skewed compared to the old default view where it was centered.
I forget what I have the forward view set at. I remember I hated the new default view so I changed the settings, Doesnt seem skewed as the rounds go where the pipper is. But they fall way short of what they used to. 400 and under used to be damn near like point blank range for me. Now even at ranges less then that Ill miss as often as I get hits
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I forget what I have the forward view set at. I remember I hated the new default view so I changed the settings, Doesnt seem skewed as the rounds go where the pipper is. But they fall way short of what they used to. 400 and under used to be damn near like point blank range for me. Now even at ranges less then that Ill miss as often as I get hits
FWIW, my gunnery took a nosedive in AH3 from AH2. Psychosomatic probably but...
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Skyyr and I had a running war with one another for quite some time. I mostly saw him. that is 90% of the time in a 152. Not the dora
Well he must of just liked posting videos with 90% doras...
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When it is 5:1 you need a fast plane to survive. That's how I manage. I can't create angles like BigR and don't have the gunnery of most here, so I survive by hoarding energy and knowing when to bug.
There are different situations for different planes. If you only fly one plane (there's nothing wrong with that), you will die more often in situations when you should not have not have picked that plane.
Situation 1
You and/or a couple of wing men fly super fast planes into a big hoard of 20 enemies agaisnt the odds, who are attacking your base. Yes this is the time to fly a 190D, P51D, Temp, 262, TA152. You want to be high and fast and quick to scatter them out. Roll from a back base. You want to be able to allow friendlies at the base you are defending to be able to roll and break the cap. Quick shot kills and Diving away is extremely important, and most planes won't catch you. This is how you bust up a big hoard. Flying planes such as a Ki84 or 109 in this case would not be sufficient as you would get ganged and picked rather quickly not being able to dive away.
Also the best planes for hunting bombers.
Situation 2
There is a furball on the map but your side is pushing them back. You need a plane that is a good mid alt fighter but has some gas to reach their base and can maneuver. These planes include 109s, f4us, Niks, P38, Ki61, c205, Fm2, F6F, 190A5, P51 and P47, a wide variety as you can see. These planes are good at high and low alts, can generally dive well, can maneuver better than most in desperate situations, and are generally quick. You don't necessarily need a super BnZer like above, because you will end up getting caught low and cannot maneuver like a mid alt fighter. BnZers in this case will spend more time missing shots and rolling off, and running away from Turners, than getting kills. Defensive planes, next situation, don't dive well and have poor gas range. They work but normally end up getting too mixed up with the lower cons and get ganged, hard to escape the fight in defensive planes.
Situation 3
So you see a furball at your base and your team is holding ground and you have a chance to roll! You need a plane that is quick and agile to get right into the fight. This is when you roll a Ki84 (especially agaisnt CV planes), spits, La7-5, Yak, A6M, Ki43, Hurricane, sometimes K4, ect. These planes can lift up quickly, gain speed quickly, can dip dodge and duck very quickly from the fighters dropping on them. The key in these planes is to be quick with quick shots before the higher ones drop in. You can easily maneuver around them and get the overshoot if they try to turn with you. These turny stall planes will get the pickers to lose their steam trying to line up shots on you. This is how to sucker the higher ones down. Rolling a P51, TA152, P47, P38, 190D, Temp, would be a very poor choice in this kind of situation. If this is the only plane you know how to fly. You are going to have a hard time and die more often than not. You aren't going to have a good time, just like in the other situations.
By chosing a plane that is more suitable for situation. You will probably have more fun, get more kills, and learn the game better.
All I am saying is that if you only chose to fly one plane, and you fly it in situations that are not suitable for the plane type. You will have a higher rate of deaths overall and get a lower K/S and K/D most of the time.
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If you only fly one plane (there's nothing wrong with that)
And all you know is the Ki84.
:headscratch:
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Aiming really has a lot to do with how good your Joystick/Rudder pedals are, aside from that setting up a good curve near the center of your joystick and learning how to properly lead a deflection shot are very important too.
I play with a 20$ stick. Good aim. I disagree. It’s all about geometry when it comes to aiming :)
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I play with a 20$ stick. Good aim. I disagree. It’s all about geometry when it comes to aiming :)
Hard to have good geometry with your nose bouncing like a bronco.
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Interesting stuff, V.
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Hard to have good geometry with your nose bouncing like a bronco.
Default settings work fine. I use them. If you are bouncing like a bronco you either have awful hand eye coordination or you need a new stick.
After re reading Krups post I only disagree with the “how good your stick and pedals are”. His other points are great.
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Default settings work fine. I use them. If you are bouncing like a bronco you either have awful hand eye coordination or you need a new stick.
After re reading Krups post I only disagree with the “how good your stick and pedals are”. His other points are great.
My stick is 12+ years old.
The way these planes respond to control movements is not akin to real life on MY end. Whether that is a stick problem or a setting I cannot say, but it causes me problems I do not have in other games. I am not a control yanker nor ham fisted so I'm convinced my stick is either tired or doesn't like my settings.
IRL: 10,000+ hours, expert marksmanship, and thirty years of martial arts I'd say my hand-eye coordination is fine. (Not "bragging" just addressing the implication.)
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No, I disagree... your aim may be good, or you may think it's good because you're used to what you're working with.
I guarantee if you upgraded your equipment, or bought rudder pedals and took the time to get used to them.. you would 100% without a doubt see an improvement.
How could you know if you've never tried better equipment?
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No, I disagree... your aim may be good, or you may think it's good because you're used to what you're working with.
I guarantee if you upgraded your equipment, or bought rudder pedals and took the time to get used to them.. you would 100% without a doubt see an improvement.
I think I need to take this advice. I have no clue what to get though...
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Nothing wrong with a Sidewinder (apart from the rattly buttons) assuming it's in proper working order which you might not notice if there has been a slow degradation. I use a Sidewinder for the core of my uber joystick project.
There's some USB software that can show you the raw data from the axes. Give it a health check. To bad we're so far apart, I'd rebuild it for you for a Texas Steak dinner :)
Two of the absolutely top division sticks I've ran into used cack controllers and one a Sidewinder and swore by it.
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see below
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I think I need to take this advice. I have no clue what to get though...
I've been using a set of CH Pro Peds since 2003 with no issues whatsoever.
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P.S. There's a potentially nasty pschological loop you can get into with shooting without knowing. It is known in competition archery. I devised a simple AH test. :old:
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Nothing wrong with a Sidewinder (apart from the rattly buttons) assuming it's in proper working order which you might not notice if there has been a slow degradation. I use a Sidewinder for the core of my uber joystick project.
There's some USB software that can show you the raw data from the axes. Give it a health check. To bad we're so far apart, I'd rebuild it for you for a Texas Steak dinner :)
Two of the absolutely top division sticks I've ran into used cack controllers and one a Sidewinder and swore by it.
I'm seriously considering your offer.
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P.S. There's a potentially nasty pschological loop you can get into with shooting without knowing. It is known in competition archery. I devised a simple AH test. :old:
I used to be quite a bowman in my teens, lol. Funny you mention that.
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Whatever you do, do NOT get a twisty stick. Having worked with people in the TA, I can instantly tell if a twisty stick is used due to additional energy loss.
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Whatever you do, do NOT get a twisty stick. Having worked with people in the TA, I can instantly tell if a twisty stick is used due to additional energy loss.
Guilty.
Guilty.
Guilty.
Guilty.
:joystick:
Perhaps I should buy a rudder pedal set first... I'll still have that annoying nose bounce.
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Whatever you do, do NOT get a twisty stick. Having worked with people in the TA, I can instantly tell if a twisty stick is used due to additional energy loss.
It really makes that much of a difference? I've had both foot pedals and a twisty stick, and while I'm certainly not a top gun because of my gunnery, my scaled twisty stick produces the same effect as the foot pedals I had.
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It really makes that much of a difference? I've had both foot pedals and a twisty stick, and while I'm certainly not a top gun because of my gunnery, my scaled twisty stick produces the same effect as the foot pedals I had.
Some are better than others with a twisty but most people get better results with pedals than a twisty.
Wiley.
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I think I need to take this advice. I have no clue what to get though...
Well, if you have the money and you're serious about flight simming this is the way to go.
https://www.amazon.com/Thrustmaster-Hotas-Warthog-Flight-Stick/dp/B00371R8P4
http://mfg.simundza.com/products
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Whatever you do, do NOT get a twisty stick. Having worked with people in the TA, I can instantly tell if a twisty stick is used due to additional energy loss.
I have always used a twisty and feel that my gunnery is ok. Back in the day when I flew 70/80 hours a month my gunnery was really good.
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Well, if you have the money and you're serious about flight simming this is the way to go.
https://www.amazon.com/Thrustmaster-Hotas-Warthog-Flight-Stick/dp/B00371R8P4
http://mfg.simundza.com/products
Hardcore
I will have to ponder this. Thanks for the suggestion. :salute
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I used pedals in AW3, but something was lost in the transition to AH (or more likely wasn't as easily done as it is now) and I went i went with the MS FFB2 twisty, putting the pedals aside.
For years in AH I've used the twisty - my gunnery has always been on the mediocre side. I've always dealt with a nose bounce/wobbly nose for fine adjustments and I've had years of messing with scaling settings etc.
NOW.... I have a MS FFB2 again and the twisty function failed... "forcing" me to get some pedals (the latest TM pedals) and I'm getting used to them again. I immediately noticed a much better ability to rudder kick some crossing shots, but am still dealing with over controlling them at times. This will abate as I get used to them. The setup in game was seamless at this point.
I'll join the bandwagon saying pedals can make a difference. Maybe this lack is why some pilots prefer jousting in fast planes.
Rudder input, whether twisty or pedals (no idea if keyboarding it is even practical) goes a long way in making flying, fighting and shooting somewhat hopefully "easier."
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Whatever you do, do NOT get a twisty stick. Having worked with people in the TA, I can instantly tell if a twisty stick is used due to additional energy loss.
Same issue I have using mouse and keyboard. I actually prefer fighting from below because of it, and trying to force overshoots in the MA.
Anyone that is good at the game can typically merge with me in the DA.. rope me, cut throttle and kill me.
I find I slap the nose of the plane around too much using the a,s,d keys for rudder, and bleed E like crazy.
Ive really been thinking about getting a top notch setup to see the difference.
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I regret opening this can of worms, but I have consistently seen a negative effect from twisty sticks, particularly with the inexperienced AH pilot.
Could someone learn to use a twisty stick effectively? Yes, but even in the MA you can see the accidental yawing activity which bleeds speed with occasional departing activity.
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I used pedals in AW3, but something was lost in the transition to AH (or more likely wasn't as easily done as it is now) and I went i went with the MS FFB2 twisty, putting the pedals aside.
For years in AH I've used the twisty - my gunnery has always been on the mediocre side. I've always dealt with a nose bounce/wobbly nose for fine adjustments and I've had years of messing with scaling settings etc.
NOW.... I have a MS FFB2 again and the twisty function failed... "forcing" me to get some pedals (the latest TM pedals) and I'm getting used to them again. I immediately noticed a much better ability to rudder kick some crossing shots, but am still dealing with over controlling them at times. This will abate as I get used to them. The setup in game was seamless at this point.
I'll join the bandwagon saying pedals can make a difference. Maybe this lack is why some pilots prefer jousting in fast planes.
Rudder input, whether twisty or pedals (no idea if keyboarding it is even practical) goes a long way in making flying, fighting and shooting somewhat hopefully "easier."
Sorry to say but the latest TM pedals are garbage, I give it a month before you're over them... Mine broke in less time.
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For years in AH I've used the twisty - my gunnery has always been on the mediocre side. I've always dealt with a nose bounce/wobbly nose for fine adjustments and I've had years of messing with scaling settings etc.
:bhead
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You can lock off the twisty on a Sidewinder. I made a tutorial once. It's relatively easy.
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:headscratch:
Well it's easy to take what I said out of context. Only flying one plane would limit your skill and experience in the game, and probably get you less kills and more deaths if you fly it in situations where the plane is at a weakness. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I am just saying that it limits your understanding in the MA to only fly one plane.
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I have a twisty stick, but I have it disabled. I tend to be a bit inebriated when flying and tend to lean on my stick a bit which isn't very good if it kicks your rudder out.
I fly a combo Joystick & A/S/D for my rudder. I only use very minute rudder adjustments though unless trying to bleed a ton of E. Usually one or two quick taps, then back to S to get my angles right.
I'm not the best gunner, but it works for me. :joystick:
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:bhead
and fwiw, the pedals aren't making the wobbles go away... maybe lessened, but it's hard for me to tell just yet in that regard.
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Switching from Twisty to peddles was one of the best decisions ever. I tend to fly sideways with a twisty. The peddles allow for much better plane control while aiming and doing other subconscious things.
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Well it's easy to take what I said out of context. Only flying one plane would limit your skill and experience in the game, and probably get you less kills and more deaths if you fly it in situations where the plane is at a weakness.
Not true. Just another one of your blanket statements without any facts to support it.
Not that there is anything wrong with that. I am just saying that it limits your understanding in the MA to only fly one plane.
Again, not true and yet another blanket statement by you without any supporting evidence.
From all of your posts, one would get the false assumption that you're the only one that understands the dynamics of the game.
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and fwiw, the pedals aren't making the wobbles go away... maybe lessened, but it's hard for me to tell just yet in that regard.
Thanks, man. My nose bounce definitely won't be helped by pedals, but inadvertent stick twist would be eliminated. That might be worth it. I'm guessing pedals offer much better fidelity in any event.
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Well it's easy to take what I said out of context.
I know, I was deliberately doing so to see how you'd react. You're not such a bad lad Violator :salute
Thanks, man. My nose bounce definitely won't be helped by pedals, but inadvertent stick twist would be eliminated. That might be worth it. I'm guessing pedals offer much better fidelity in any event.
Perhaps it's a plan-forward to start with pedals and lock off your Sidewinder's twisty?
I removed the centrespring from my CH pedals. At one point I had a superflux LED on my wall driven by a Hall Effect sensor to find the centre, but it's not needed really.
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Flying one ride or another doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things because ACM applies to them all the same...some just do things better then others. Flying a Spit 16, ect ect ect will make it easier to beat most of the other planes in the set but the ACM doesn't change.
People think when I say "Any ride, doesnt matter what it is" is me being cocky but nope the plane choice normally doesn't matter in most cases...pilots have to be pretty similar in skill level for the plane of choice to make a difference.
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if I kill them: they are pretty good
If they kill me: they are really good
:banana:
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I got rid of nose bounce by scaling the first few bars of my elevator scaling down to almost nothing, same with my rudders. What I discovered when I tweaked it was if you need to do that, ramp up your scaling to full as soon as possible, otherwise you get bad behavior at the other end. I had my scaling badly messed up for years which explained why I had so much trouble riding the edge of stall at low speed. Since I changed it it's gotten much better for me, but I haven't put in the time to get really smooth with it yet.
As far as plane choice, for me it makes it a lot easier to understand other planes' capabilities by flying them versus flying against them. YMMV.
Wiley.
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Not true. Just another one of your blanket statements without any facts to support it.
Again, not true and yet another blanket statement by you without any supporting evidence.
From all of your posts, one would get the false assumption that you're the only one that understands the dynamics of the game.
It is mostly true. If it wasn't, they would have made all the planes exactly the same. Planes were designed for the type of combat they would endure.
You should know that rolling a P38 from a defensive standpoint will be a lot more challenging than rolling a Ki84... It's pretty much common sense. A newb will have a much easier time defending in a Ki84 than a P38.
I'm just trying to point out that flying the fastest planes in the game is not always your best pick because certain situations aren't ideal for those kinds of planes.
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Planes were designed for the type of combat they would endure.
There were also different philosophies regarding air combat. More so at the start of WW2.
Regarding defensive / offensive plane choice - to generalize there's really three large circles on the Venn diagram: TnB, BnZ and energy fighting. Some aircraft sit firmly in one only and others more in the intersections of one or more of those sets. The position therein of your and your opponent's plane and the starting point of the fight makes for an interesting and suggestive line graph. Some of those relationships make for a much easier fight than others.
Some people also fly stupid for fun or the challenge. :D
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I know, I was deliberately doing so to see how you'd react. You're not such a bad lad Violator :salute
Perhaps it's a plan-forward to start with pedals and lock off your Sidewinder's twisty?
I removed the centrespring from my CH pedals. At one point I had a superflux LED on my wall driven by a Hall Effect sensor to find the centre, but it's not needed really.
Yeah. Maybe start with pedals. Have you rebuild my SW.
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Whatever you do, do NOT get a twisty stick. Having worked with people in the TA, I can instantly tell if a twisty stick is used due to additional energy loss.
I use a twist and have all my career. I’d bet my house with it.
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Sorry to say but the latest TM pedals are garbage, I give it a month before you're over them... Mine broke in less time.
No joke, mine were broken inside of 6 months.
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I got rid of nose bounce by scaling the first few bars of my elevator scaling down to almost nothing, same with my rudders. What I discovered when I tweaked it was if you need to do that, ramp up your scaling to full as soon as possible, otherwise you get bad behavior at the other end. I had my scaling badly messed up for years which explained why I had so much trouble riding the edge of stall at low speed. Since I changed it it's gotten much better for me, but I haven't put in the time to get really smooth with it yet.
As far as plane choice, for me it makes it a lot easier to understand other planes' capabilities by flying them versus flying against them. YMMV.
Wiley.
Could you post a screen shot of how you have your stick and rudders scaled? Id be interested in giving it a shot, as I tend to spray a lot over correcting while shooting.
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I'd like to see that screenie as well. Are you using CH gear Wiley?
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Here you go. My rig is an unmodified X52 from before they were bought by Madcatz with Saitek pedals from the same time.
(https://i.imgur.com/JyRssnE.jpg)
The drawn in line is more or less how it was set up before. Bluntly put I don't think I could have messed it up more if I'd tried. With the old setup, the last half inch or so of movement on the stick moved the elevator about half its deflection. The low end worked fine for getting rid of nose bounce though.
With the new setting, it got rid of the nose bounce and allows me to pull as finely as I like for gunnery. One caveat I'll give is I have a lot of dead zone because the spring's so weak on the x52 it doesn't sit exactly in the center, but sags just slightly forward at rest.
The logic is, it's fairly insensitive at the low end to allow for gunnery adjustment but ramps up more quickly than I had it before so I can ride the blackout tunnel much better than on the old setting. I haven't played with it too much I believe there's likely room to ramp it up more quickly, but the one crack I took at ramping up sooner added in nose bounce again and I haven't gotten around to fine tuning it. My rudders look very similar to this curve for the same reason.
edit: Your hardware may not react the same as mine so you might have to adjust the curve a bit, but the logic should still apply. I upped the damping from previously as well, which might've helped too.
Wiley.
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There were also different philosophies regarding air combat. More so at the start of WW2.
Regarding defensive / offensive plane choice - to generalize there's really three large circles on the Venn diagram: TnB, BnZ and energy fighting. Some aircraft sit firmly in one only and others more in the intersections of one or more of those sets. The position therein of your and your opponent's plane and the starting point of the fight makes for an interesting and suggestive line graph. Some of those relationships make for a much easier fight than others.
Some people also fly stupid for fun or the challenge. :D
I agree with your statements. What I was trying to get to was the 3 main situations that the 3 main fighter categories of planes fit in. Energy fighters against the odds(big hoard) , BnZ/TnB/mid alt fighters for base attack and furballs that are long distance, and TnB for defensive fighting to defend your base. Using planes in their strength situation typically leads to a more successful sortie.
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I agree with your statements. What I was trying to get to was the 3 main situations that the 3 main fighter categories of planes fit in. Energy fighters against the odds(big hoard) , BnZ/TnB/mid alt fighters for base attack and furballs that are long distance, and TnB for defensive fighting to defend your base. Using planes in their strength situation typically leads to a more successful sortie.
I think different pilots can get different results though. For me, using something that accelerates/climbs well and has good top speed can give me better results than a more TnB style plane. The faster the plane accelerates/climbs, the less time I need to spend trying to survive the vulch and the sooner I can start pressing them.
Wiley.
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Could you post a screen shot of how you have your stick and rudders scaled? Id be interested in giving it a shot, as I tend to spray a lot over correcting while shooting.
The scaling pattern that Wiley showed is the same one I use for my rudder scaling (although I use no damping -- see below). It is also good for elevator on the X52, as I had the same issues: the X52 felt very "tall and loose" and does flop around more than some others and makes centering more difficult.
With the "tighter" sticks I have used, like a CH or newer Logitech Xtreme 3D (a cheap but effective stick until it wears out), I recommend elevator scaling a little closer to default to keep the input a little more "linear", since stiffer sticks are easier to control and center.
As far as damping goes, remember that damping slows your input, it doesn't "scale" it. As you increase damping, you are effectively creating a delay between when you move the stick and when the game responds. This is why you don't want any scaling or damping on your X-axis (roll) because that just slows your roll rate. Unless you are really throwing your stick around too much and getting the "do not move your controls so rapidly" pop-up, my recommendation is to use little to NO damping -- the lowest possible setting you can get away with. Instead, rely on scaling for smoothness.
As far as rudder sway is concerned, when adjusting aim with your rudder ("shooting with your feet" as I call it), you will usually get some yaw sway back and forth when you release or recenter your rudder. When using rudder to aim, it is best to rudder into your shot, hold there while you shoot and THEN release rudder. If you try to rudder into the shot and release it before or during firing, you will get the yaw wobble and your shot will spray left and right.
You can try practicing this and getting a feel for it by firing at the outer rings of the .target practice target. The .target will give you visual feedback via your bullet dispersion pattern and allow you to see if it varies most horizontally ("yaw sway") or vertically ("nose bounce").
My two cents...
<S>
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Thanks Wiley. Mine is set along the line that is drawn on that picture. I'll try adjusting it to look more like the sliders are set, moving the curve back in the picture.
I use a t16000 right now, but hoping to fix my X55 (replacing the plastic post on the hat switch with a steel one). While the T16000 works well the X55 is a taller stick and seemed to fit my big old meat hooks better.
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Good stuff. Thanks everyone. :salute
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I scale mine with the first slider up about 1/5 of the way up and then a progressive curve from there...I do however only have 1 bar height adjustments for the first four sliders . I have done this for both the x and y axis of the stick... for me this eliminates my heavy hand issue as I have to make a pronounced movement (so to speak...it is just a little joystick afterall) and this also helped my nose bounce....I set my deadband to just below the first slidea. .and dampening I between that..... I also use the T16000...best cheap stick ever....I actually like it better than the X52 stick when it was working.
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The stick scale I use which I made to help eliminate the nose bounce used to be available on the trainer's site for download. Not sure if it still is.
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I was just recollecting fights I have had and I saw some indicators of potential skill of my opponents based on the way they move and figured it would be an interesting topic. :joystick:
- From my view I noticed that the better pilots were more intense and gave of a sort of wavelength or pattern of reflexes that revealed their level of focus and I could measure it against my own capability and then come to a general conclusion how the fight will unravel before it has started.
Has anyone noticed any other behaviours that reveal the potential of opponents in here? :airplane:
If you rage quit and pm angry messages after you have been owned usual indicates your skill .
If your in a Spit 14 you are 9 times out of 10 to know nothing about the rides to pick.
If your in the Brewster your 9 times out of 10 to be from Finland.
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i flew with twisty stick for 6 years and peddles for 3 years. to me peddles was a waste of money wont buy another set and here is why. The only thing i gained with rudder peddles was holding energy slightly better not alot maybe 3 knots on a good day. with the twisty stick i had much more control over my plane and my aim was way better. i did try scaling in every way i could with rudders to try and get to where i was with a twisty and i could not do it. I started with a twisty stick and used it for to long to switch over to rudder peddles thats what i chalk it up to. each person is different obviously so my opinion is useless to most and i respect that. <<S>>
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I had better aim with twisty stick(X52)....I can't hit crap flying now. (Think it also has something to do with the FOV and looking over the top of the cowling which I did non stop for shooting in AH2 but now its off.)
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Well, if you have the money and you're serious about flight simming this is the way to go.
https://www.amazon.com/Thrustmaster-Hotas-Warthog-Flight-Stick/dp/B00371R8P4
http://mfg.simundza.com/products
ouch
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Well, if you have the money and you're serious about flight simming this is the way to go.
https://www.amazon.com/Thrustmaster-Hotas-Warthog-Flight-Stick/dp/B00371R8P4
http://mfg.simundza.com/products
Is that the flight gear you use Krup? I like the baseplate of the throttle.
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If you buy that throttle you can land seven kills in a P38 can’t you.
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Is that the flight gear you use Krup? I like the baseplate of the throttle.
Yeah I just don't have the pedals, I bought a nice monitor recently so I'm stuck with my modified CH's for now.
They're next on the list tho, more than worth it from what some friends have told me.
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I own a Thrustmaster Warthog and I do not recommend it- I rank it below the CH Fighterstick.
In my opinion there is a gap in the market for a decent stick. I have thought of buying a VKB stick but I do not consider the 'KG12' handle/grip adequate.
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If you buy that throttle you can land seven kills in a P38 can’t you.
If I had that throttle, I'd shoot down seven P38's. :airplane:
Coogan
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I own a Thrustmaster Warthog and I do not recommend it- I rank it below the CH Fighterstick.
In my opinion there is a gap in the market for a decent stick. I have thought of buying a VKB stick but I do not consider the 'KG12' handle/grip adequate.
I had a CH stick before, and I'd take my Warthog over it any day. I'm sure Joach1m would tell you the same thing... it's just a matter of preference I guess.
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I had a CH stick before, and I'd take my Warthog over it any day. I'm sure Joach1m would tell you the same thing... it's just a matter of preference I guess.
I don't particularly rate the CH fighterstick either. :D
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thrila is alive!!!! :banana: :airplane:
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I had a CH stick before, and I'd take my Warthog over it any day. I'm sure Joach1m would tell you the same thing... it's just a matter of preference I guess.
Agree as well- Hotas/Stick wise over time my preference will change. CH was great for me for a long, long time, in AH for playing a lot of hours as it's very, very light and easy to move. Once you get used to the Warthog however, IMO it's more precise and accurate. Then you go to the Virpil T50 and gimbals like it and the VKB Gunfighter has/will have (hopefully), and it's an even higher degree of precision. Blade posted some stuff in Hardware doing stick tests with his VKB Black Mamba, it was pretty impressive, and the T50 is about the same for me. I'm pretty certain the Gunfighter from VKB will be similar or better.
One issue a few may have with the TM Warthog or perhaps read about is the sticktion thing, but it shouldn't put anyone off of buying one. The "fix" for this is extremely simple, and once you break down the WH base and apply some of the various remedies and regrease/etc, it's excellent. This is only if it's even required in the first place, I have 3 TM Warthogs and 2 Cougars, and only 1 of them, my first Warthog, has run into the sticktion issue, and it was pretty mild prior to going through the Youtube/sim forums treatments.
TM is still working on the new F18 HOTAS, should be pretty cool, and I hope they build in some forward/backward compatibility with the WH sticks/base. VKB is working on an F14 MCG grip for the Gunfighter to go along with the Russian type stick currently offered as of Dec 1.
Lots of options for sticks/Hotas/pedals out there. Anyone looking for custom pedals shouldn't overlook the VKB pedals either, they are substantially less $ than the MFG (I have both and the 109 Slaws), and are all metal construction. Much different type of motion, many including me find it more precise than the CH/MFG/Slaw type of movement, but this is personal pref obviously.
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In my opinion there is a gap in the market for a decent stick.
What sort of features would you be looking for Thrila?
Strange that this discussion about reading skill has centred on equipment. Even though there is a glaring elephant in the room.
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Controllers and their setup can help translate the pilots thoughts into actions but they must have that thought in the first place. I can buy the same golf clubs as Tiger Woods but that does not mean I would be able to play like him.
With regards to skill, we all know who the good pilots are in the MA. It is usually noticeable immediately after the merge and certainly by the time the 2nd turn is initiated. Within the MA there are so many variables in play that whilst it is easy to identify a good skill level it is very hard to benchmark that skill against yourself.
For instance, I have always had very good fights with Flippz, my 51 against his Yak3. I have usually had an E advantage and I work hard to be aggressive but always strive to keep that E advantage because my plane simply cannot compete in an outright turning duel with the Yak. I know he is a good pilot, can I beat him 1 on 1, same plane, co alt, co E? I have no idea. So, I can read his skill level I just cannot benchmark it against my own very easily.
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I'll add another,
if half a thread about reading skill is discussing one player in particular then you have skill.
Guess he would have got a big kick out of this one. Hopefully he managed to read all the posts lauding his abilities through some proxy VPN, :devil
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Thrilla hearts Ewoks.
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Controllers and their setup can help translate the pilots thoughts into actions but they must have that thought in the first place. I can buy the same golf clubs as Tiger Woods but that does not mean I would be able to play like him.
With regards to skill, we all know who the good pilots are in the MA. It is usually noticeable immediately after the merge and certainly by the time the 2nd turn is initiated. Within the MA there are so many variables in play that whilst it is easy to identify a good skill level it is very hard to benchmark that skill against yourself.
For instance, I have always had very good fights with Flippz, my 51 against his Yak3. I have usually had an E advantage and I work hard to be aggressive but always strive to keep that E advantage because my plane simply cannot compete in an outright turning duel with the Yak. I know he is a good pilot, can I beat him 1 on 1, same plane, co alt, co E? I have no idea. So, I can read his skill level I just cannot benchmark it against my own very easily.
This sums it up very well.
:salute
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I'll add another,
if half a thread about reading skill is discussing one player in particular then you have skill.
Guess he would have got a big kick out of this one. Hopefully he managed to read all the posts lauding his abilities through some proxy VPN, :devil
Burn. :rofl So true. :salute
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Controllers and their setup can help translate the pilots thoughts into actions but they must have that thought in the first place. I can buy the same golf clubs as Tiger Woods but that does not mean I would be able to play like him.
With regards to skill, we all know who the good pilots are in the MA. It is usually noticeable immediately after the merge and certainly by the time the 2nd turn is initiated. Within the MA there are so many variables in play that whilst it is easy to identify a good skill level it is very hard to benchmark that skill against yourself.
For instance, I have always had very good fights with Flippz, my 51 against his Yak3. I have usually had an E advantage and I work hard to be aggressive but always strive to keep that E advantage because my plane simply cannot compete in an outright turning duel with the Yak. I know he is a good pilot, can I beat him 1 on 1, same plane, co alt, co E? I have no idea. So, I can read his skill level I just cannot benchmark it against my own very easily.
You can beat Flippz 1v1 easily. Either you are giving him too much credit, not giving yourself enough or a combination of both.
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As Gman mentioned, my problem with the Thrustmaster is the 'stiction'- the inability to make small, precise movements because the joystick sticks. This leads to over applying pressure to move the stick; causing jerky movements. The stick I own is unusable for making small movements.
I paid a lot of money for the stick and spent another £100 trying to fix and alleviate it's faults. I've bought grease, sand paper, springs, a stick extension and a table mount. Since when is it acceptable to expect a customer to take apart a stick to modify it (straight of the box) in order to make it work? I will never recommend this stick to anyone.
I also do not like the resistance force of the stick, nor the force required for buttons- I started to develop RSI from using them 8-way thumb. This combined with the stiction led me to go back to the CH fighterstick.
CH has it's own problems- poor quality control (I've had 2 whose bases weren't even level, I returned one and glued a bit of card to the corner of the other to make it level), spiking will develop, poor resolution, and generally an old and dated design.
What sort of features would you be looking for Thrila?
Stick: A stick's throw should be light enough to move using the thumb and index finger. It should have a some resistance- but not an excessive amount. Resistance between CH and thrustmaster- adjustable resistance would be better. The ability to attach stick to a height adjustable table mount should be considered as should the ability to extend the stick length (would not be a deal breaker for me). I shouldn't have to mention that a stick should be smooth and precise
Buttons/hats/switches: 8-way hat, and at least two 4-way hats, a trigger, a button in reach of my index finger and another for my index finger.
Throttle: A slide throttle (also not a deal braker for me).
Thrilla hearts Ewoks.
By the way ever since Ep.I I have been in love with Gungans. Liam Neeson certainly feels the same way.
(http://cdn-static.denofgeek.com/sites/denofgeek/files/styles/insert_main_wide_image/public/2015/11/binks-3.png)
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I will consider buying a VKB base and attaching the Warthog stick when that becomes an option.
I have also own MSG crosswind pedals which I rate highly, and CH pedals which do the job.
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Is there any stick with... how to describe... with a centering force function that is differentiable at the center? In less mathematical terms, where the centering force difference of a tiny push and pull doesn't differ much from the difference of a tiny push/pull and a slightly harder push/pull?
Sometimes it seems to be better to fly out-of-trim to do tiny corrections by purely pushing/pulling, instead of flying fully trimmed and doing tiny corrections by a mixture of pushing and pulling. Easier to hit in a high-G turn, than dead-6 with a fully trimmed plane.
Obviously, the consequence of a stick like that would be that it doesn't center as nicely as normal sticks. And if it has some nice mass (a stick with inertia feels better than a stick with resistance/friction), it will tip over when left alone. At least if its just sitting on the desk, and has no counter weight below the desk.
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As Gman mentioned, my problem with the Thrustmaster is the 'stiction'-
Don't really remember experiencing stiction with the Sidewinder - it should have it but it's not perceivable. Still using my CH stick. What I don't like about that is the centring 'flappers', so you also don't get what ccvi mentions around the neutral point. I removed the centring mechanism of my CH pedals because I decided twisty sticks might have an advantage here.
Since when is it acceptable to expect a customer to take apart a stick to modify it (straight of the box) in order to make it work?
Is a very good point and a bit of a poor show.
Is there any stick with... how to describe... with a centering force function that is differentiable at the center?
Not yet. :)
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If in the middle of your fight they say they just got back from the bathroom............ :uhoh
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If in the middle of your fight they say they just got back from the bathroom............ :uhoh
I once got a kill while AFK. The system message said that the other guy collided with me. I assure you that no skill was involved - neither mine nor the other player's.... :D