Training Arena etiqette

[WW]

Nash's post from the other thread.
The whole things nothing but a big joke.

---edit-----
hrmph.. another thread just caught my eye. Just found this forum - but yegads - sure is heavy in here huh?

I'll post my thoughts there - cuz it looks like my name's been brought up. <sigh> hehe

But let us not fool ourselves. These are dark and trying times gentlemen. The TA frought with peril, greed, seal clubbin' and just downright pure eeeevil. The strong prosper, the meek perish in glowing balls of engine fire.

wotevah.

Most people get it, some don't, and some refuse to. I'll post my thoughts over there.

It's 5am and I got an appointment with bed.

[humble]

A second comment here, when I stopped in last night (10pm or so PST) there were 5 players logged in..it grew to 12-15 quickly with no trainer present. I stayed off the buffer for a good 5 minutes and saw zero problems reflected on the buffer. I saw zigrat Dukemskt and others helping and commenting. Later NASH showed up and joined the commentary.

I do know this, right now if I wasn't a trainer I wouldn't set foot in the TA. I wouldn't bother with the attitude and BS there. The thought that a large number of the vets are feeling the same way saddens me, it's a better place with them involved.

I'm still wondering how we get combat training without the combat part.

[WW]

I spent another 3 hours with Wiz last night showing him how to loop, roll and bank. He didn't have it all down. Wiz was the "Buddy" who told me Nash was attacking him last week. He said he couldn't get off the field because of it, at that time.

But hey, I think we've got this solved. Nash is right, it's not a training arena. its an FFA. That was the focus our our difference of opinion in the TA. And brand new people have the honour and privledge to come out at FFA central (A1) where they can help to imrove the gunnery skills of people like Nash. (After lineing up on me, he took the time to nose down again to get closer before opening fire. It was quite commical the trouble he went to for the perfect shot)

I think you summed it up in the other thread Hmble, As an FFA it is a place where they can learn fast. Learn that flight games are not for them because they suck at them.

Additionally, the lack of a clear decision about what that room is, just makes more problems. Nash and I would never have had the difference in opinion (and thus wouldn't have started his smartmouth routine) if it was clear that it WAS an FFA or NOT.

I just don't know how you enforce rules of engagement in an FFA. The two ideas seem in complete conflict.

Now, in anticipation of the all to common, "Whining cause he got shot down Whaaa". I could care less if I get shot down. Lets face it, I sat there watching him 'TEE' me up for a good minute or so. I watched the spray of bullets missing all over the place till he finally hit enough to damage the plane. I had been watching him make his approach from 7.6 out. (nothing wrong with my SA). Through the whole thing, I didn't move. Yeah, I hate it so much, I sit there and watch it happen. The fact is, I was expecting it and waiting for it. I call it the TA Rope-a-Dope. Catches the cherry pickers everytime.

I hate the idea of newbies getting bounced by people without the intestinal fortitude to go find a target that at least represnts a small challenge. But no, even after I suggested to Nash, "Didn't you think I might be AFK?" his response was, "I don't care, it's a war in here <G>"

So FFA it is.

[This message has been edited by WW (edited 04-24-2000).]

[WW]

Hmble,
That brings us back to the beginning doesn't it. How newbies can get bounced on the field, jumped when asked not to be, etc, with a trainer in the room.

It's not a training arena. It's an FFA. Kieren mislead me when he told me I should ask before attacking.

So here's a question for you. If FFA is such a wonderful training tool and helps the newbie learn so much faster, why not train right over A1? Why was Av8tr wrong to clear your 6? Hey the newbie needs to learn SA too!
It wouldn't have anything to do with learning ONE thing at a time would it instead of having to deal with it all at once.

Nope, lets face it. As a newbie in AH, my understanding of the words, "Training Arena" on the menu where incorrect. In AH, "Training Arena" means FFA.

I submit Hmble, Your right. I'm wrong. FFA it is.

In which case Easymo shouldn't been penalized either. The man is just doing what everyone else does, and what you yourself support. He's just playing in the FFA. "Free for all" which means, that anything that enters the arena is a target, including instructors and students. regardless of the circumstances. So you can't fault the man for following the rules you have endorsed and promoted. He's not doing anything wrong in the FFA. Nor was Nash, he killed a moving target! Moving streight and not turning at all   (lol) but moving none the less. Nash is also right when he says some people just don't get it. It's an FFA. It's just the sign on the door thats wrong. Us idiots who ask before we attack and like the same in return, What a bunch of fools!

I am by "whining" about it! Why didn't someone just tell me the sign on the door was wrong?


[This message has been edited by WW (edited 04-24-2000).]

[humble]

WW,

I do train right at the spawning base, and I've had no real problems. Our session occurred right at the spawn point without a problem after the initial bounce.

Now, if you auto takeoff and fly up...you'll eventually get bounced. That's what you wanted right..you were trolling for it.

It's obvious that tension's are growing over the FFA aspect of the arena. I think it's a very welcome addition to the TA mix. NASH is certainly in no need of padding his ego, he already resides near the top of the food chain. Last I saw he and Zigrat were going to do some 1 on 1's.

[WW]

Hmble...    
I already said, Your absolutely right.
It's an FFA. Not a training arena. I'm wrong.
Your right! Your Right!

And Yes, I trolled to see if Nash really was the kind who would shoot down a newbie just minding his own business. But again, I had the foolish impression that this kind of activity was not acceptable in the "TA".

Nash is just playing the game like the rest of them. Now I know that. Thanks for clearing that up.

"No problems after the initial bounce" .   LMAO. I love how everyone saying there is no problem talks about those one or two bounces EVERYTIME without fail...LMAO. It's an FFA, thats to be expected...  

I'm not upset or excited, not now that I understand it's an FFA. It's just hilarious how everyone talks about no problems "After" they got bounced. Everyone mentions that unfair bounce, but "I dont see a problem"..LMAO

Biggest forums here are on etiquette. This one grew over my long weekedn and there's no problem   LMAO

There's a big problem.. The name on the door is wrong.  


[This message has been edited by WW (edited 04-24-2000).]

[-ammo-]

 

Originally posted by humble:
WW,


It's obvious that tension's are growing over the FFA aspect of the arena. I think it's a very welcome addition to the TA mix.

A welcome addition?  Now granted it can be fun but I must asume you mean that the new guy (or girl) gets an idea of how to survive in the main Arena. This is where I disagree.
A new pilot would be better armed with  a trainer giving them the proper training on Basic ACM and Energy mangement. Learn the capabilities of their aircraft, Situational Awareness, and effective evasives.

I think that WW has made his point (and beyond--dead horse) but I agree with some of his points. The TA needs a "training atmosphere". It needs a schedule. I dont see a problem with the FFA during off hours of a schedule. And I dont see a problem with pilots goin off to another field and doing their own thing. I think that A1 should be the Main training field--due to the advantages of its altitude. But whatever trainer is on duty or volunteering his time should have total control of the field he has. he should dictate the training.

DISCLAIMER~  This is my Opinion and only my opinion. I am not a trainer.


 

[Nash]

Ok THIS is rediculous. I'm having a very hard time avoiding the temptation to RANT in the biggest way here. WW - I'm sorry, but you must have a couple hundred posts here, probably havan't left the computer all day for clicking refresh and waiting for the next rebuttle, and I think I have a pretty good idea of the kind of person you are. What to do? Should I make poor woe is me, put upon WW feel all rosy and happy inside? Should I say "Oh - I'm sooo sorry, it was a misunderstanding - let's talk this through".. or something. Nuh uh. I've seen yer type, and you get a certain satisfaction by bangin' yer head against a wall. Guys like you aint never really happy unless they're unhappy. That's my observation and I'm stickin' with it.

Now... this whole thing strikes me as just silly.  There are... ok WW, this could get complex so I'll type s l o w l y for you... ready? There are SIXTY FOUR some odd bases in the training arena. That's right! Sixty-four of the damn things! They're EVERYWHERE!   Now... here's where it gets tricky... Only ONE of these bases is what we like to call a FFA (that means Free for All). Ok so far? Good. Now - what happens at the FFA base is, you guessed it, a good 'ol FFA. I suppose I should describe what that is for you. You take off, fly to where the others are fighting, and join in. There are unwritten, but fairly common sense rules to this, of course.

Ya don't vulch.

If yer upping just behind another plane, turn and get seperation before firing.

If ya see a trainer hovering overhead (kieren, humble etc.) answering questions, don't attack them.

Do not whine or complain. Ask questions instead.

When someone asks a question, answer.

Hmm.. that's all I can think of off the top of my head. See? It's fairly loose. Now to address your issues WW. Does one need to ask permission to shoot someone down? "Excuse me Mister P51 - would it be ok for me to fire at you?". Gosh man, do I really need to talk on this? That's ludicrous. There are some 12 guys fur ballin' it and we need to have a discussion before we go guns on eachother?

Duels. "Please don't shoot me and so-and-so, we are dueling". Yah? Well this is where that 64 base thing comes in. Why in the world do two people need to duel at THE ONE, SINGLE, ONLY, FFA BASE? Go elsewhere - it's a couple clicks away and you will NOT be disturbed. I fly with plane-type icons on, not names. This is to see what kinda plane's I'm engaged with. Now - do I really need to cycle the icons to name and back again, then cross reference these names on a pad of paper I keep beside my computer of those requesting immunity as they are dueling? Bah. Please - go elswhere. This is not a dueling field, it is not a training field, it is a FFA field. Comprende?

Which brings us to the Training part. Ya really gotta hand it to the trainers WW, they're no fools. See - what happens when they are training someone? They move... here it is again... TO ONE OF THE SIXTY-THREE BASES THAT ARE NOT BEING USED AS A FFA BASE. These trainers are fantastic, helpful, level-headed. Go ahead and ask for help - they'll be there inna heartbeat. The "training" element in the "training arena" is most certainly there. I see a session or two going on all the time. They are not being disturbed because...here we go again... THEY ARE NOT TRAINING PEOPLE AT A FFA BASE  

Man, I *hate* gettin' worked up like this. It's sunny out, I got the day off, and here I am spending a half hour, bordering on fuming mad, because of one guy who's taken aim at me. Ignorance gets my goad like nuthin' else. The Traing Arena has been so much fun, and obviously there are misunderstandings - but christ... Lighten' up WW. Yer makin' the place out to be some kinda horribly failed experiment. SAVE THE TA! SAVE THE TA! Feh... It's actually quite an enjoyable place... but something tells me you'll never really be happy - and you quite like it that way, don't ya?  

[av8r]

You said it Nash!
I agree 100%.

And, I WILL CONTINUE TO ENJOY flyin in the TA and I WILL NOT let this stupid and pointless "discussion" ruin my fun.

Weather it's helpin out with teaching a newbie, or doin "for fun" duels with the trainers when they are "off duty", or goin h2h with the likes of Nash, Citabria, and several other GREAT GUYS who hang out in there with me, or even...(Heaven forbid!)...
partaking in a FreeForAll at F1, I'll be having a good time and releiving some of my REAL LIFE STRESS.  

So I'll prolly be there tonight as usual, and if WW is in there, and if he POLITELY asks not to be repeatedly kilt by me...well..I just MIGHT let him fly unmolested, depending of course upon his INEVITABLE response to this, and every other post in this thread.  
heheh.

Av8r
"keep the stress in RL where it belongs"

[WW]

Sorry to hear Reading is not you strong suite. If it where you might have noticed that YOU nave been noted for breaking one of the rules you noted. but heck, you don't care anyway.

As for Icons, I had no idea one could switch it to a plane type. I'm a Newbie moron! And moveing to new fields, cool. Your at the hanger telling all the newbies how to do that RIGHT MORON!

And Av8tr is right in there ready to get his vengence on this newbie by harrassing same. And all these folks are buddies with Hmble. Sounds like a cool click to me which I guess also reflects well on the first items in this discussion.

Actually Nash, since your not the real thinkin type, allow me to spell it out for you.
If you tick off the newbies, they don't come back. Hence, no players, hense no one to play with, hence HTC looses a fist full of cash and no AH.

Sorry Nash, more of that readin stuff and big words too!

[This message has been edited by WW (edited 04-24-2000).]

[WW]

Hell screw it,
I'm not gonna bother with this place anymore. It's dead anyway, just hasn't fallen over yet.

I'm cancelling my count. Thanks Nash, Av8tr and the head of the pack, Hmble for that one.

[humble]

If i was being polite I'd say I'm sorry to see you leave...however I feel like answering this one personally.


Don't let the door hit you in the Ass.

I now revert to my politically correct form.

[Nash]

"Sorry to hear Reading is not you strong suite."

I get by. Is grammer yours?

"If it where you might have noticed that YOU nave been noted for breaking one of the rules you noted."

Nope - I haven't. I'd like you to bring in this Wiz person you keep talking about... and have him decribe this alleged incident. Forgive me for forgetting what exactly it is I'm being accused of.

"but heck, you don't care anyway."

As a matter of fact I do. I *enjoy* my time in the TA. I want to *continue* to enjoy my time in the TA. It's a great atmosphere. Why do ya feel the need to stink it up so bad?

"As for Icons, I had no idea one could switch it to a plane type. I'm a Newbie moron!"

Er... that was *supposed* to be funny right? Actually, yes - alt-I toggles 'tween names/plane type/off. I'm a moron for not knowing that you didn't read the readily available and extensive help files included with this sim? So I'm supposed to be flying around trying to read yer mind, lookin' for gaping holes in yer knowledge on accounta the fact that you were too lazy to help yourself?

"And moveing to new fields, cool. Your at the hanger telling all the newbies how to do that
RIGHT MORON!"

Heh. "All newbies please form a line here - we are going to explore the fabulous new world of changing fields". Ya know what? Yer just.... ah nevermind. Anyways, no. Newbies, unlike yerself, are really quite easy to distinguish. How so, you may ask. Because they usually aren't so full of piss that they actually ask questions of people. They are polite. They are there because they need help. Trainers descend on these guys like flies, and next thing ya know - they are back the next day with 1000x the knowledge you managed to dig up in the one and a half weeks of attitude.

"And Av8tr is right in there ready to get his vengence on this newbie by harrassing same. And all these folks are buddies with Hmble. Sounds like a cool click to me which I guess
also reflects well on the first items in this discussion."

Yer just mumbling at this point - did u have one? Sorry, I seemed to have missed it... I have an excuse though. I am a MORON.  

"Actually Nash, since your not the real thinkin type, allow me to spell it out for you."

That would be just dandy WW, please, I think at this point I really *do* need you to spell it out for me.

"If you tick off the newbies, they don't come back. Hence, no players, hense no one to play with, hence HTC looses a fist full of cash and no AH."

Hmm... this reminds me of a few places I've worked at. There'd be the odd person or two who would take any opportunity to complain, point fingers, and generally just cast a pall over an otherwise great place to be a part of. That wasn't exactly good for business. Messes with the moral. Turns the place into a drag.

Sure - "ticking off the newbies" isn't a good thing. When it comes to my personal conduct, my conscience is completely clear. I'll dispute your claims to the contrary and I will *continue* to dispute them. When it comes to other people's conduct, I have to be honest with ya man... I must be wearing blinders cuz I just aint *seeing* these horrible acts of which you speak.

It's unfortunate though. How easy it could have been for your experience to be so much different than it appears it now is. Man, when I was a newbie, it was probably the best period of time in my whole flight-sim uhm... career (insert more appropriate word here). You probably aren't gonna listen to this advice, but here it is anyways.

Try to cease alla this nonsense. Come at this thing again with a fresh set of eyes, a fresh set of ears. Try to renew your passion for what brought you to Aces High in the first place. Marvel at the masters, annoy them with your questions. Share the things you're learning with people at the same level as you. Make a mental note to improve on your weaknesses. Relish a well executed manuever that would have been impossible only a week before. Set goals, and meet them. Ask, ask, ask. Read. Ask again.

Ask any old hats 'round here what the most rewarding time has been, and they'll tell you it's when they were newbies. The sad thing is... ya can never go back. I *miss* being a newbie. Please, WW, stop this garbage and relish this time.

"Sorry Nash, more of that readin stuff and big words too!"

Enough. Please.

Nash

[Nash]

Hmm.. too late. In that case - what hmble said  

[humble]

WW,

>>I don't know what you guys call it, but the term unrelenting does come to mind. especially when a trainer is helping the process<<

>>Later today, when I came on, I noticed you where being more proactive and asking folks not to hit A1.<<

>>Now later, after my first post last night, I went up in the TA again (When I got shot down in the hanger by Ace02) I did take off from A1 with film rolling (No attack!) Hmble asked someone to leave A1 alone. I circled to land at A1 (No Attack!) I took off again (No Attack!) I circled and landed again (No Attack!) and their where dots all around. This was a first for me and even though I did get nailed later in a hanger, I was VERY VERY surprised. In the extreme. WTG hmble.<<

>>Anyway, I didn't think you where a bad guy, our lesson together was a good one which added more confusion later. The joke I wasn't privy too said, "bad guy" (I didn't know it was a joke or that you told him to stop) but the training said, "Good guy". A few other situations suggested "Bad guy" so colour me confused until you started explaining things a bit.<<

>>Again, thanks for the comments Hmble, it's appreciated. And yeah, the truth is probably somewhere in between, but keep in mind your days in AWIII newbie arena. To the newbie in AH, the truth is considerably worse.<<

>>And Av8tr is right in there ready to get his vengence on this newbie by harrassing same. And all these folks are buddies with Hmble.<<

WW, are you a drug user by chance?

I do have a "real life", I've found AH to be a blast and jumped on the offer to help out. I'm one of many who are trying to help. I never met av8tr or any of the other TA regulars (with exception of JASE) till 2 months ago. I've done my best to treat you with respect and explain my actions. You are only interested in spreading falsehoods and creating problems...what a sad life you must lead.