Author Topic: Question to Finns (Read 25609 times)

Raven_2 · « **Reply #885 on:** March 30, 2005, 06:19:29 AM »

to Seeker

>>The difference is that the West comes clean faster; is more open to checks and balances and is more reactive to the wishes of the populace when the political imperitive changes.

Know why? True democracy means equality and freedom. Your model (liberal democracy) made freedom it main point. In doing so you lost equality.

Soviet propaganda often talked about homeless people at West that cannot get food to fed themself. Was it a lie? Only in scale, there were not 50% (like propaganda said), but "only" 10-15% (today statistics) such people in whole population. That was horror for our people, cause in USSR *every* citizien got food, flat, free health care, free education (both basic and higher) and job (there were no unemploed). Sure, there were not so much choice in goods, but all goods USSR had was avalible for *all* people - in equal. See the point? USSR chose equality. And, yes, lost freedom on that way.

So - we had to half-democracy regime.

What is better: freedom without equality or equality without freedom? I don`t know.

Can balance be achived and true democracy being established? I don`t know.

[EDIT]
"So - we had to half-democracy regime. "
Must be:
"So - we had *two* half-democracy regimes. "

Despair · « **Reply #886 on:** March 30, 2005, 06:40:09 AM »

Nations, Gvmnts, etc: I have always been an individual, tried to get least dependant on the country and gvmnt I live in. Its only me, my family and friends and no 1 else really cares about me and my happiness. So why hate nations? There are morons in every of them. The information your country feeds you is always onesided. No gvmnt can afford to hurt itself with 100% truth. its always distorted. So why bother? Its only facts, i would say that its wrong to bomb a country with atomic bombs when the war has been already won, I say its wrong to sacrifice your soldiers lives for the sake of democrasy/supremacy/whatever, I say its wrong to suiside bomb buldings with airplanes. But its life. And hating other nations doesnt help preventing the above things from happening.

MiloMorai · « **Reply #887 on:** March 30, 2005, 07:41:44 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Raven_2
to MiloMorai

>>How can these 2 make comments about the use of Agent Orange by the USA, who did not know it was toxic, while the Russians, full well knowing the results of doing so > instant death, used chemical weapons in Afganistan?

If you think that your word is enough for me to belive in this fact, you mistaken. Any links?

Will it matter to you Raven if I do. You will only sluff it off as Capitalist propaganda.

Should I mention the dolls, filled with explosives, dropped by the Russians to main and kill Afgan children?

Tell, me Raven why there is long lines in Russian to even get the basics ? Why are the shelves so empty?

If all was available to all, why was there seperate stores. So much for equailty in the old CCCP.

Tell me Raven if the commie system was so good, why are the Americans sending aid to you?

The Americans even subsidize your space program because without that money it would die.

Despair · « **Reply #888 on:** March 30, 2005, 08:25:28 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by MiloMorai
Will it matter to you Raven if I do. You will only sluff it off as Capitalist propaganda.

Should I mention the dolls, filled with explosives, dropped by the Russians to main and kill Afgan children?

Tell, me Raven why there is long lines in Russian to even get the basics ? Why are the shelves so empty?

If all was available to all, why was there seperate stores. So much for equailty in the old CCCP.

Tell me Raven if the commie system was so good, why are the Americans sending aid to you? The Americans even subsidize your space program because without that money it would die.

Another fool who has prolly never been to russia and claims he know something.

Despair · « **Reply #889 on:** March 30, 2005, 08:25:29 AM »

[dblpost

MiloMorai · « **Reply #890 on:** March 30, 2005, 08:53:40 AM »

Good name you have for a commie. I would have that nick if I was a commie.

No I have not been there and have no desire to. I have worked with Russians who decribed the lack of basics, freezing in their apartments after waiting years to get one and have had friends who went there to work because they wanted good work done, besides the fact that the Russians were incapable of doing the work.

Angus · « **Reply #891 on:** March 30, 2005, 09:06:18 AM »

Most of this community has never been in Russia.
Most are non-russian speakers.

I've been to Poland, know many Polish, my friends have been to Russia, I have employed and worked with many eastern-block people.
Sort of boils down to the story that things were not all that good over there in the glorydays. All a myth perhaps?
Well, for some odd reason, people were often trying to get out of there, so wall them. People were trying to pick up foreign radio and music, - so scramble it.
So, when the damn bursted, we have eager eastern europeans all over the place trying to get jobs, trying to start a life elsewhere.
But why?
Because they chose freedom over equality?
What is equality with no freedom?
All worth a thought really.....

Despair · « **Reply #892 on:** March 30, 2005, 09:34:32 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by MiloMorai
Good name you have for a commie. I would have that nick if I was a commie.

No I have not been there and have no desire to. I have worked with Russians who decribed the lack of basics, freezing in their apartments after waiting years to get one and have had friends who went there to work because they wanted good work done, besides the fact that the Russians were incapable of doing the work.

I am not a commie and I have never been, and I dont live in Russia, but I had a chance to spend there 16 years. Also I had a chance to live in US and Japan for abt the same time. Travelled to quite a few european countries and all I can say is that ppl are basically all the same everywhere. I would say that Americans are the selfest and greediest of all of them that value money above everything else. So what? Dose it make them all bad? Or do i hate em because they are like that? No, I just dont care. Each and everyone of them was an individual. So i cannot generalise it. At least I have an experience to say something like that because its my own experience and not some article in a newspaper.
As for lines for basics, lol, go visit moscow for example, you might find out that your american job aint paying u enough money to live in Moscow.

Siaf__csf · « **Reply #893 on:** March 30, 2005, 10:11:41 AM »

You got that partly correct Despair. No money in the world would get me move to Moscow.

Boroda · « **Reply #894 on:** March 30, 2005, 11:08:22 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Raven_2
Soviet propaganda often talked about homeless people at West that cannot get food to fed themself. Was it a lie? Only in scale, there were not 50% (like propaganda said), but "only" 10-15% (today statistics) such people in whole population. That was horror for our people, cause in USSR *every* citizien got food, flat, free health care, free education (both basic and higher) and job (there were no unemploed).

I was stunned when I saw a bum sleeping in the street in NYC in 1989. It was a revelation for me that homeless people are real and indeed live in the streets. I also was surprised by the smell

It's quite different when you see it yourself and not on TV.

If we only knew that in a few years we'll have such people in the streets too...

Skydancer · « **Reply #895 on:** March 30, 2005, 11:24:59 AM »

"I am not a commie and I have never been, and I dont live in Russia, but I had a chance to spend there 16 years. Also I had a chance to live in US and Japan for abt the same time. Travelled to quite a few european countries and all I can say is that ppl are basically all the same everywhere. I would say that Americans are the selfest and greediest of all of them that value money above everything else. So what? Dose it make them all bad? Or do i hate em because they are like that? No, I just dont care. Each and everyone of them was an individual. So i cannot generalise it. At least I have an experience to say something like that because its my own experience and not some article in a newspaper."

Agreed, for the most part Though i wouldn't say americans are the only ones who

"are the selfest and greediest of all of them that value money above everything else." I've plenty of fellow countrymen who fit that description.

Go meet people before you lable them.

I know and have worked in the US, people are as you say individuals.

Most importantly criticizing a Govt or policy does not make you a "hater" of the people of that country. Contrary to what some people in here might think.

Boroda · « **Reply #896 on:** March 30, 2005, 11:38:49 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Toad
You mean AFTER he shot two missiles at it and failed to murder them in the air?

He didn't force anyone to land. Your fighters lost him and he landed on a lake. The fighter transmissions with control were recorded.

Toad, the one who shot off it's wingtip was one Su-15, then another shot a wingtip again ("target divided" and this wreck looked like a bomb or cruise missile, so a BVR missile was shot at it). Then a third Su flown by Keferov found the Boeing again (first pair RTBed because they were low on fuel) and forced it to land at the lake. 707 was making attempts to leave Soviet airspace (so they knew where they are).

Quote

Originally posted by Toad
That's probably what the pre-printed confession they were forced to sign said. You're familiar with "confessions" in the USSR, no doubt?

They made confessions, there was a trial and they were released as a sign of good will from Soviet side. There must have been an ICAO investigation too.

Quote

Originally posted by Toad
The Finns recorded the KAL on 121.5, International VHF Emergency. No answers, no transmissions at all from the Soviet forces. Those lying Finns, eh?

UberFinns recorded no transmittions from Soviet side?!

Toad, you are so funny in believing nonsence someone feeds you!

Anyway, was it possible for Finns to record Soviet ground control transmittions? I doubt it. Koreans were at 9000m, so both Soviet and Finnish side could communicate with them w/o hearing each other. I am not a specialist.

Quote

Originally posted by Toad
Scared to shoot? Because it took you forever to intercept KAL 007? You were scared by your own incompetence.

Actually, I'm suprised they didn't murder him. They could have done it with wake turbulence most likely.

I told you about a chain of command, that's probably why you are still alive after flying into Soviet airspace. They were able to intercept KAL007 over Kamchatka, but they thought it was a weekly American RC-135 excercise and didn't bother because usually they ran away before interceptors could get them. BTW, it could be a good idea to make a missile ambush for that RC-135, but noone bothered.

Quote

Originally posted by Toad
I mapped the radars so they could develop the best ingress routes.

Fortunately, you Soviets didn't advance beyond your captured countries in Eastern Europe and try to enslave more of Europe, so there was no war.

Soviets didn't plan to "conquer" Europe. Even your declassified plans show that we could, but US side admits that there is no such desire and political will.

Quote

Originally posted by Toad
Our SIOP was always reactive in nature. It was "IF the Soviets do this... we will do this." Your side would have had to start it; and then we would have had to finish it for you.

Reactive?! They were planning exact dates for an attack on USSR! Go find something about Drop Shot and later plans. The attack was not connected with Soviet side starting a war.

This plans are declassified long time ago and must be availible for public. No doubt your modern propaganda simply doesn't mention them.

Quote

Originally posted by Toad
And don't pretend you didn't have ICBM's of the Strategic Rocket Forces targeted on US cities as well. And what of your missile carrying submarine forces when you got those in the 1960s? What were they aimed at?

Check the dates please. When Khruschev's "missile bluff" took place - it resulted in American 24/7 combat patrol, with B-52s loaded with H-bombs ready to invade USSR and burn it's cities in terrorist purposes. At the same time USSR didn't have more then a few ICBMS, didn't have missile sub fleet, didn't have strategic aviation in serious numbers. We were unable even to retaliate. Instead of making plans of aggression - USSR developed aircraft and missile defence.

Quote

Originally posted by Toad
BTW, MAD must have worked.. we're all still here in "keyboard combat" rather than actual combat. Success.

Agreed. You see, sometimes I agree with you

Joke: Stalin talking to Churchill on the phone: "No... No... No! No. Yes. No! No..." After he hangs up - secretary asks him: "Comrade Stalin, did you really agree with him on something!?" - "He only asked if I can hear him"....

Krusher · « **Reply #897 on:** March 30, 2005, 01:42:55 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Boroda
I was stunned when I saw a bum sleeping in the street in NYC in 1989. It was a revelation for me that homeless people are real and indeed live in the streets. I also was surprised by the smell It's quite different when you see it yourself and not on TV.

If we only knew that in a few years we'll have such people in the streets too...

His 10 to 15 percent number is wayyyyyy off.

It "may" be more along the lines of 2 percent depending on the source. That being said, I worked with the homeless back in the 80's and you would be surprised how many people made it a lifestyle choice. That dosnt mean we dont have too many homeless, but just not 30 million like he was suggesting.

Siaf__csf · « **Reply #898 on:** March 30, 2005, 02:09:46 PM »

http://www.time.com/time/europe/eu/daily/0,13716,419083,00.html

Quote

"We already have shelters, and Governor Vladimir Yakovlev signed an order to open night shelters for the homeless in every district two months ago," he said. "Using these resources would make better sense than taking these people out of the city - like the old-fashioned way when such things happened during the 1980 Olympic Games in Moscow."

So Boroda thinks they didn't have homeless people because KGB shipped them out of the city. Maybe they were given a new home from a gulag with a healthy enviroment of forced labour, who knows.

http://www.sptimesrussia.com/archive/times/682/news/n_3852.htm

Zakhal · « **Reply #899 on:** March 30, 2005, 02:31:30 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Angus
Most of this community has never been in Russia.
Most are non-russian speakers.

I've been to Poland, know many Polish, my friends have been to Russia, I have employed and worked with many eastern-block people.
Sort of boils down to the story that things were not all that good over there in the glorydays. All a myth perhaps?
Well, for some odd reason, people were often trying to get out of there, so wall them. People were trying to pick up foreign radio and music, - so scramble it.
So, when the damn bursted, we have eager eastern europeans all over the place trying to get jobs, trying to start a life elsewhere.
But why?
Because they chose freedom over equality?
What is equality with no freedom?
All worth a thought really.....

Equality as in equally opressed?