Author Topic: 190 Series Vs. P38 Series (Read 8020 times)

killnu · « **Reply #165 on:** December 26, 2007, 01:32:59 AM »

if only the planes performance numbers were all that mattered...

Tac · « **Reply #166 on:** December 26, 2007, 01:42:19 AM »

"Get on top without being shot, force the 38 to drop his nose first"

That in itself is a problem for most 190 pilots. Unless you have a very good E advantage (50mph is not a good advantage) over the 38, going into the vertical and hoping the 38 drops his nose first will end up with a kill for the 38.

counter-rotating props you see... that nose stays pointed up with no control issues even to stall point (40mph). The 190 starts shaking and twisting at around 120mph. If both planes are flying upwards and the 38 is behind you at a lower speed that just means that your 190 cannot outrun the hail of 50 cal being sent your way. You cannot outzoom a bullet.

Guppy35 · « **Reply #167 on:** December 26, 2007, 01:53:24 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by killnu
if only the planes performance numbers were all that mattered...

We're not picking on 109Ks

And you used to be a 38 dweeb too back in the day!

Fianna · « **Reply #168 on:** December 26, 2007, 02:07:33 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by 33Vortex
I'd win the 1st one, maybe the 2nd (don't know how good a stick you are, or what luck you may carry with you ) but I would probably (edit) not win the 3rd.

Sweet!! Is 33vortex your in game ID?

33Vortex · « **Reply #169 on:** December 26, 2007, 04:41:47 AM »

Yes, I'm on Euro time, CET (GMT+1). You?

killnu · « **Reply #170 on:** December 26, 2007, 10:53:36 AM »

I know Dan. Just adding a touch of reality...it is not all the plane...as everyone knows....

Quote

Must have been a 38G if it was augering

...I wasnt talking about 80th 38L's...just 38L's in general.

There is but a small portion of good fighting 38 sticks out of all the 38's lerking around...and 80th has most of them.

Fianna · « **Reply #171 on:** December 26, 2007, 01:24:34 PM »

GMT-8

SIG220 · « **Reply #172 on:** December 28, 2007, 02:54:54 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by oboe
Here's the actual data from the last tour, late war MA. Interesting numbers I think. I wouldn't draw a strong conclusion from this. If I saw all the data from all the tours ever, I'd still probably lean towards thinking its pilot over plane.

Fw 190A-5 has 13 Kills of P-38G
P-38G has 9 Kills of Fw 190A-5

Fw 190A-5 has 41 Kills of P-38J
P-38J has 44 Kills of Fw 190A-5

Fw 190A-5 has 97 Kills of P-38L
P-38L has 55 Kills of Fw 190A-5

Fw 190A-8 has 27 Kills of P-38G
P-38G has 25 Kills of Fw 190A-8

Fw 190A-8 has 89 Kills of P-38J
P-38J has 95 Kills of Fw 190A-8

Fw 190A-8 has 230 Kills of P-38L
P-38L has 169 Kills of Fw 190A-8

Fw 190F-8 has 28 Kills of P-38L
P-38L has 32 Kills of Fw 190F-8

Fw 190F-8 has 1 Kills of P-38G
P-38G has 7 Kills of Fw 190F-8

Fw 190F-8 has 8 Kills of P-38J
P-38J has 18 Kills of Fw 190F-8

Fw 190D-9 has 32 Kills of P-38G
P-38G has 13 Kills of Fw 190D-9

Fw 190D-9 has 101 Kills of P-38J
P-38J has 112 Kills of Fw 190D-9

Fw 190D-9 has 299 Kills of P-38L
P-38L has 162 Kills of Fw 190D-9

OK, I am confused by these stats here.

I thought that the P38L was the newer and better P38 model?

But if that is true, how is it that the stats of the P38J here are so much better than the L model?

Is it simply that more people are using the L version as a ground attack plane?

If anyone has an explanation for this, I would like to hear it.

SIG 220

SIG220 · « **Reply #173 on:** December 28, 2007, 02:57:11 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Guppy35
Probably best to use the 38J for the comparison as the 38G drivers like myself tend to be down low and slow and a tad suicidal in our flying and the 38L drivers outside of a few use it as the ground pounder.

The best 38 drivers bar a couple of the L guys are in the 38J for the most part.

But exactly why is this?

Why would one want to choose to fly the J model over the L?

I would really be interested to know the reason for this. I have only experimented a little with the L so far, myself.

SIG 220

Urchin · « **Reply #174 on:** December 28, 2007, 07:05:26 AM »

The only difference ordinance wise between the L and the J we have is that the L uses the later 'tree' style 5" rockets, and the J uses 3.5" rocket tubes.

The tubes stay on after being fired, and have a much larger drag penalty than the tree.

Charge · « **Reply #175 on:** December 28, 2007, 07:12:00 AM »

"D9 is much more survivable as it requires a lot less thinking and skill from the pilot during a fight."

I'm not sure I follow you. Less thinking and skill? By that statement alone I could state that all dedicated 38 pilots are more or less morons. Would I be right? I'd probably be as wrong as you are with your statement.

"The mistake that d9 pilots are seen doing over...and over... and over again is entering a turn fight against a plane that is a much better turner than the D9 is. The D9 allows these mistakes to be corrected simply by diving with WEP on or climbing away after some separation is gained with WEP on."

Entering a turn fight is not a mistake in a 190. Letting him win it is. I do it frequently because it is FUN and surprisingly I have even won a few, even against 38s. If the going gets tough you may be able to reverse and get away in time. Go too slow and you will be bagged. Sounds easy?

"This WEP however, does not make the D9 'better' than the P38. The 38 is a plane of versatility, a bag of many tricks and capabilities... where the dora has but the WEP trick and no more."

D9 also has pretty good armament and good roll rate. It also should have much better airframe G tolerance and thus high speed maneuverability but this is not modelled. How unfortunate.

"1400 rounds even at that long range the hits snapped his wing out."

Yeah, you could test with .target command which of these guns is most far reaching: MG131, MG151/20, .50Cal or Hisso.

You really managed to snap his wing off from 1.1k with a concentrated hail of .50s? Why not, the .50 probably had the tightest bullet pattern long range and the 190s probably had the weakest wings of all WW2 fighters...

-C+

Urchin · « **Reply #176 on:** December 28, 2007, 07:41:59 AM »

I've tested that in the past. IIRC .50s dissapear around 1.4k shooting forward, 1.7k shooting back.

Can't remember the other values.

Bronk · « **Reply #177 on:** December 28, 2007, 07:53:59 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Urchin
The only difference ordinance wise between the L and the J we have is that the L uses the later 'tree' style 5" rockets, and the J uses 3.5" rocket tubes.

The tubes stay on after being fired, and have a much larger drag penalty than the tree.

Nope, the 38 l has boosted ailerons and dive recovery flaps. And yes the roll response is a bit different.

Raptor · « **Reply #178 on:** December 28, 2007, 04:22:29 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by SIG220
OK, I am confused by these stats here.

I thought that the P38L was the newer and better P38 model?

But if that is true, how is it that the stats of the P38J here are so much better than the L model?

Is it simply that more people are using the L version as a ground attack plane?

If anyone has an explanation for this, I would like to hear it.

P38J has 6 rockets
P38L has 10 Rockets
P38L has Dive flaps

P38L carries more ord and is more survivable in those newbish suicidal dives if they know how to use dive flaps.

Tac · « **Reply #179 on:** December 28, 2007, 08:09:16 PM »

---I'm not sure I follow you. Less thinking and skill? By that statement alone I could state that all dedicated 38 pilots are more or less morons. Would I be right? I'd probably be as wrong as you are with your statement.

Take a relatively new player who only has flown spits or n1ks or some other newbie ride and put them in a P-38 and he will be dead pretty quick. It takes a good amount of time and practice to be proficcient in the plane for ACM. Put them in a 190d9, show them where the WEP button is...

and you got a 'decent' 190 pilot.

Hence yes, it takes a lot less skill and thinking to fly the 190d9. This is not to say there are GOOD pilots flying the 190D9, just that overall the plane is just far, far FAR more forgiving and easy fight in than the P-38.

"The mistake that d9 pilots are seen doing over...and over... and over again is entering a turn fight against a plane that is a much better turner than the D9 is. The D9 allows these mistakes to be corrected simply by diving with WEP on or climbing away after some separation is gained with WEP on."

Entering a turn fight is not a mistake in a 190. Letting him win it is. I do it frequently because it is FUN and surprisingly I have even won a few, even against 38s. If the going gets tough you may be able to reverse and get away in time. Go too slow and you will be bagged. Sounds easy?

You just reinforced my point. Dont know why you seem to be arguing it. A p-38 does not have that option a 190d9 has it practically all the time. Hence it IS a mistake on their behalf to turn with better turning planes.. if they mess up the shot they think they going for the WEP will be there to save them.

"This WEP however, does not make the D9 'better' than the P38. The 38 is a plane of versatility, a bag of many tricks and capabilities... where the dora has but the WEP trick and no more."

D9 also has pretty good armament and good roll rate. It also should have much better airframe G tolerance and thus high speed maneuverability but this is not modelled. How unfortunate.

Irrelevant when compared to the WEP.

"1400 rounds even at that long range the hits snapped his wing out."

Yeah, you could test with .target command which of these guns is most far reaching: MG131, MG151/20, .50Cal or Hisso.

You really managed to snap his wing off from 1.1k with a concentrated hail of .50s? Why not, the .50 probably had the tightest bullet pattern long range and the 190s probably had the weakest wings of all WW2 fighters...

Which... is exactly my point again. The 38's guns are capable of long range 'sniping' and have a copious ammo load. That one factor alone, above all other airplanes in the set, allowed me to win that fight. Score 1 for the 38's bag'o'tricks.