It's Like the Hydra

[AKIron]

Originally posted by Tigeress
Vietnam was an example of history repeating itself... and not heeded.

Since we are republic, a nation founded upon a constitution and law, we can't just kill all the dissenters that caused us to ultimately fail in Vietnam. We also can't afford to let those of the same mindset cause us to fail in the Middle East now. I'd almost rather see it come to a civil war in this country than give in to them this time around.

[Tigeress]

Originally posted by AKIron
Since we are republic, a nation founded upon a constitution and law, we can't just kill all the dissenters that caused us to ultimately fail in Vietnam. We also can't afford to let those of the same mindset cause us to fail in the Middle East now. I'd almost rather see it come to a civil war in this country than give in to them this time around.

I don't think "dissenters" caused the failure of the US in Vietnam anymore than they caused the "Failure of the French" there.

There will always be dissention on everything and that is probably not such a bad thing. Need to look at all angles even if some points of view are in lala land.

My Dad served in Vietnam... dissention was stuff other families did... not us.

TIGERESS

[Tigeress]

Lessons of History

French Indochina War

TIGERESS

[AKIron]

Originally posted by Tigeress
I don't think "dissenters" cause the failure of the US in Vietnam anymore than they caused the "Failure of the French" there.

There will always be dissention on everything and that is probably not such a bad thing. Need to look at all angles even if some points of view are in lala land.

My Dad served in Vietnam... dissention was stuff other families did... not us.

TIGERESS

I wasn't advocating killing the dissenters but they did in fact cause us to lose Vietnam to the commies. Dissent is protected by the constitution and I would have it no other way. I might be willing to fight even to the death however those whose position of dissent would ultimately destroy our country. Not for dissenting but for their position.

Communism had a serious setback with the fall of the USSR but is alive and well in China and may bury us yet, if the middle eastern terrorists don't first that is.

[john9001]

Originally posted by Tigeress
I don't think "dissenters" cause the failure of the US in Vietnam anymore than they caused the "Failure of the French" there.

the north vietnamese said the dissenters in the USA helped their cause, it helped their morale and let them know that even tho they were losing the war if they just hung on for a little wile longer the americans would run away. They would show the news reels of the protests in the streets of america to their people.

that's not a opinion, that's fact, and that's what al qaeda is counting on.

[Tigeress]

Originally posted by AKIron
I wasn't advocating killing the dissenters but they did in fact cause us to lose Vietnam to the commies. Dissent is protected by the constitution and I would have it no other way. I might be willing to fight even to the death however those whose position of dissent would ultimately destroy our country. Not for dissenting but for their position.

Communism had a serious setback with the fall of the USSR but is alive and well in China and may bury us yet, if the middle eastern terrorists don't first that is.

Respectfully, I submit that failure to achieve stated goals gave rise to the dissent. Chicken and Egg thang...

TIGERESS

[Tigeress]

Originally posted by john9001
the north vietnamese said the dissenters in the USA helped their cause, it helped their morale and let them know that even tho they were losing the war if they just hung on for a little wile longer the americans would run away. They would show the news reels of the protests in the streets of america to their people.

that's not a opinion, that's fact, and that's what al qaeda is counting on.

I believe that. I also believe "Hanoi Jane" help galvinize resolve to stay the course.

We lost; they won. I hate that.

In business... ISO9000, we have a saying...

Say what you do; Do what you say.

We went there to defeat communism expansion. We failed. period.

I am afraid any time the USA get floundered neck deep in a quagmire the dissenters are going to play pile on.

Don't get floundered.

TIGERESS

[AKIron]

The anti-war activists didn't just encourage the enemy. They prevented us from doing what was necessary to win in Vietnam. Bush's biggest mistake imo was in believing we had the necessary resolve to see a war against the Islamofacists through.

[john9001]

Originally posted by Tigeress
I believe that. I also believe "Hanoi Jane" help galvinize resolve to stay the course.

We lost; they won. I hate that.

TIGERESS

you need to reread history.

nixion forced them to sign the paris peace accords where they withdrew from the south and ceased fighting......then

nixion resigns

democratic congress cuts off ALL military aid to the south.

after two years the north invades the south and ford refuses to send US troops back in.

the south falls.


you call it a loss, i call it betrayal.

[Tigeress]

Originally posted by john9001
you need to reread history.

nixion forced them to sign the paris peace accords where they withdrew from the south and ceased fighting......then

nixion resigns

democratic congress cuts off ALL military aid to the south.

after two years the north invades the south and ford refuses to send US troops back in.

the south falls.


you call it a loss, i call it betrayal.

Betrayal is a loss.

Screwing around with a "police action"... you can fly here but not there...

Ok now you can bomb Hanoi... ok, stop now... lets let them rebuild again.

There were serious blunders... on the left and the right.
Nixon did himself in... to the detriment of the country.
No one made him break the law... in my view he let us down and in doing so gave control to the lefties.

Politically I sit in the middle with a bit more right leanings than left.

So don't expect me to take sides. Left or Right... plenty of blame to go round that both political parties deserve.

I am Pro-USA, all the way.

If what we are doing in the middle east was really working...
I doubt anyone would listen to the cut-n-runners.
Now... the righties will give up and let the lefties have a go and they will also fail, no doubt. Then everybody can blame everybody and it just goes round and round.

No one seems to have a solution.

This is solvable or else we may as well start saying our six prayers a day and start fasting during Ramadan which is coming up on the 17th of November for a month.  And I will go shopping for a stylish burka.


Oh, and no more pron and beer for you guys... ever.

Get the job done.

TIGERESS

[john9001]

Originally posted by Tigeress
Nixon did himself in... to the detriment of the country.
No one made him break the law... in my view he let us down and in doing so gave control to the lefties.

actually according to the white house tapes nixon knew nothing about the break in and wanted to ' tell all', it was his advisor john dean that convinced nixon to "stonewall", of course when dean was called before congress he sung like a birdy and blamed it all on nixon.

i read the transcript of the white house tapes.

[Tigeress]

Originally posted by john9001
actually according to the white house tapes nixon knew nothing about the break in and wanted to ' tell all', it was his advisor john dean that convinced nixon to "stonewall", of course when dean was called before congress he sung like a birdy and blamed it all on nixon.

i read the transcript of the white house tapes.

I am aware of that John.

Picking the right people for cabinet positions is an important job and every President is reminded to do so with care. For like Judas they can bite you. Classic act of betrayal… and it was a loss for the whole country.

The Buck Stops with the president... good or bad.

I fondly remember Reagan displaying that sign on his oval office desk.


The blame game is for loosers, imho.
Winners have no need of it.

Figure out the SOLUTION.

THEN... get the job done.

TIGERESS

[FrodeMk3]

Originally posted by Tigeress
I am aware of that John.

Picking the right people for cabinet positions is an important job and every President is reminded to do so with care. For like Judas they can bite you. Classic act of betrayal… and it was a loss for the whole country.

The Buck Stops with the president... good or bad.

I fondly remember Reagan displaying that sign on his oval office desk.


The blame game is for loosers, imho.
Winners have no need of it.

Figure out the SOLUTION.

THEN... get the job done.

TIGERESS

Inasmuch as this is true, Tigress...It was Harry S. Truman who put that on the oval-office desk in the first place. It's been there ever since. But not all who've passed through that office have paid heed to it.

[Tigeress]

Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Inasmuch as this is true, Tigress...It was Harry S. Truman who put that on the oval-office desk in the first place. It's been there ever since. But not all who've passed through that office have paid heed to it.

I wasn't aware of Harry first doing that, thanks for that, Frode.

Two things I remember vividly about Reagan's desk.

That Sign, which he often pointed out and which I believe he took seriously... and the ever full bowl of jelly beans to share with his visitors.

I loved him deeply.

Also, in my view he got the job done.

TIGERESS

edit: cool website on the sign and Harry. :http://www.trumanlibrary.org/buckstop.htm

for those who are not American: "The buck stops here" is a phrase that was popularized by U.S. President Harry S. Truman.

It refers to "passing the buck," i.e., handing responsibility to someone else, and the fact that the president has to make the decisions and accept the ultimate responsibility for those decisions.

referenced: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_buck_stops_here

[Arlo]

Originally posted by AKIron
The plan lazs is to simply make everything the republicans do appear as a mistake or failure. Then the democrats can take over and take care of everything.

Appear? *chuckle* And it's the Bush administration not the Republican party. Even some Republicans are figuring that out.

Get over partisan groupthink. It's been proven possible.