Author Topic: Collision model SUX (Read 5155 times)

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #45 on:** June 04, 2003, 12:02:02 AM »

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Originally posted by OIO
Swoop: because you get yourself an even bigger problem: People shooting through friendly planes.

IMO, a better solution would be to make the pilot BLACK OUT for like 5 seconds if he shoots a friendly plane with more than X bullets..where X is a number of bullets hitting a plane.. X can be like 50 or so, enough to not penalize an accidental killshoot (idiot cutting in front of you and your d200 target), but enough to penalize someone spraying blindly in a furball or purposely going after friendly planes.

I know a few hated it but I liked the PNG (Persona Non Grata) system from AW. If you shot more than two friendlies in a 24 hour period when you returned to base and get a new plane, you couldn't take off with any ammo. And if you killed more than two friendlies an additional 24 hours was tacked on to each kill after the 2nd one. So you were basically regulated to Gooney duty if you wanted to fly while PNG. And it worked great in AW Classic but later on in AW2 and AW3, so many spray and pray shooters whined about PNG and it was removed. Too bad, it worked but HiTech I don't think liked it.

Ack-Ack

Rude · « **Reply #46 on:** June 04, 2003, 08:38:40 AM »

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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
I disagree.

I think killshooter/killbomber is the worst.

Golly...I actually agree with Sandman:)

moot · « **Reply #47 on:** June 04, 2003, 11:43:31 AM »

just put a fraction coeff to KS lethality.

dracon · « **Reply #48 on:** June 04, 2003, 03:36:57 PM »

Killshooter?? I've seen it done both ways in WarBirds. I think you have to have "Killshooter On".

Collisions: Both planes destroyed. Both have to ride 'em or bail.

Radar: Get rid of it! Or decrease it. I think it kills the True Fighter Sortie concept (chance of discovery). Blinking field distances need to be decreased. Blinking fields give the game away.

My $.02,

Sandman · « **Reply #49 on:** June 04, 2003, 09:47:03 PM »

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Originally posted by Rude
Golly...I actually agree with Sandman:)

I'll be okay. Just take deep breaths, don't make any sudden movements and find something to hold on to until the dizzyness passes.

Karnak · « **Reply #50 on:** June 04, 2003, 11:59:59 PM »

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Originally posted by SixxGunn
KillShooter- If I could change it I would leave it just the way it is except no damage is transfered to shooter. Bullets wouldnt pass through allowing the someone behind to shoot thru plane to get a kill.
Griefers would be doing nothing but wasting ammo-would get real boring after awhile.

The problem with this, and the reason it unacceptable to the point I would cancel my account, is that it grossly changes WWII air combat tactics if you can shoot through friendlies (sure, some of the rounds are stopped by the friendly aircraft, but most get through to have a chance at the enemy). In reality you simply did not pull the trigger if you thought there was a chance that you'd shoot a friend and if you did and hit your friend an aircraft on your side might be eliminated from the fight.

Even with no ammo an aircraft changes the dynamics of a fight simply by providing one more target and one more potential threat (the enemy doesn't know you're out of ammo) that needs to be tracked.

As it stands killshooter best matches all of the required criteria:

1) It gives pilots serious pause in shooting past friendlies.
2) It can fully eliminate an aircraft from combat due to friendly fire.
3) It stops greifers dead in their tracks.

It fails on two points:

1) The shooter not the shootee is affected. (Due to greifers I see no solution to this)
2) It does not penalize those who willfully and in full knowlege of their invulnerability cut into the path of somebody elses fire.

If somebody can come up with a solution that better fits those criteria more power to them.

Karnak · « **Reply #51 on:** June 05, 2003, 12:06:06 AM »

I wonder how it would work if both the shootee and shooter were affected? Maybe something like this?

It succeeds on two points:

1) It gives pilots serious pause in shooting past friendlies.
2) It penalizes those who willfully cut into the path of somebody elses fire.

It might or might not succeed on one point:

1) It seriously hampers griefers, but does not stop the dedicated griefer.

It fails on one point:

1) It can fully eliminate two aircraft from combat.

fats · « **Reply #52 on:** June 05, 2003, 02:45:56 AM »

--- Grizzly: ---
But I wonder about slow connects vs broadband. If a person has a slow modem, doesn't he stand a better chance to survive collisions because he will likely get his updates later?
--- end ---

No. he will still die ( meaning collide ) just the same. You should remember it's the FE in question that determines wether someone has been involved in a collision.

The fact that some FE has detected a collisions bears no meaning wether another FE detects one. So a person doesn't become involved in a collision without his FE detecting one and that isn't affected by ping times.

Big ping time combined from player A's and B's pings to the host, but note it doesn't matter who has higher or lower ping, means there exists bigger discrepancy what each player sees as their reality. The discrepancy is not constant, one pair of players have a combined ping of 200ms and other have 500ms, Switch pairs and it might be 20ms and 680ms or something else. The point is this is what makes colliding on purpose a roll of dice, you can't know the offset your plane appears on the other FE hence aiming it to someone becomes rather difficult.

A fun addition to AH filmviewer would be the ability view two films synchronized in the same scene. This could be used to view the 2 realities of an 1-on-1 fight from an external vantage point. Personally I just can't figure out how to sync them properly at the start but I guess there would be a way. This sort of visual demonstration should help it to explain to people how big difference there actually exists and why collisions have to be the way they are not, so they maintain consistant results.

// ville
p.s. due to the nature how the filmviewer stores enemy plane positions a collision that happened might appear been a near miss on the film viewer.

Don · « **Reply #53 on:** June 05, 2003, 08:42:03 AM »

>>it grossly changes WWII air combat tactics if you can shoot through friendlies (sure, some of the rounds are stopped by the friendly aircraft, but most get through to have a chance at the enemy). In reality you simply did not pull the trigger if you thought there was a chance that you'd shoot a friend and if you did and hit your friend an aircraft on your side might be eliminated from the fight.<<

What is ironic about this argument is the fact that, arena flying/fights and tactics,don't resemble WWII tactics/actions/attitudes at all.
Take Head Ons for example. While a head on approach was used, it wasn't the first thing they used, because it was dangerious due to the rate of closure. Yet, in AH the head on is used by far too many players, and use of acm seems a distant thing of the past.
Shooting at an nme a/c did not involve (from what I have read) conga lines of guys breaking their necks to get a kill or to steal a kill; it does occur in the MA all the time.
So in AH we have a certain way the game is played, which includes all of the things that did not occur in WWII, and have a profound affect on the way the game is played. As a result, we have a high rate of collisions, and deaths due to killshooter. Whether one flies that way or not, in the AH-MA environment these things are gonna happen because a large majority of pilits fly in ways that increase the incidence of these things ocurring.
Unless a miraculous change occurs and dweebdom is forever expelled from the game, we are gonna have these things. Therefore, the collisoin model is gonna happen, and sometimes to the innocent, and killshooter needs to be in effect, because guys will fly into your bullet stream...pffft!

Re: Killshooter

>>1) The shooter not the shootee is affected. (Due to greifers I see no solution to this)
2) It does not penalize those who willfully and in full knowlege of their invulnerability cut into the path of somebody elses fire. <<

I agree, the above are the primary weaknesses to what we have now

And I wonder what was in the minds of the HTC staff when they implemented KS.

Karnak · « **Reply #54 on:** June 11, 2003, 09:45:39 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Don
Re: Killshooter

>>1) The shooter not the shootee is affected. (Due to greifers I see no solution to this)
2) It does not penalize those who willfully and in full knowlege of their invulnerability cut into the path of somebody elses fire. <<

I agree, the above are the primary weaknesses to what we have now And I wonder what was in the minds of the HTC staff when they implemented KS.

They were probably thinking that it is the best solution from among all the imperfect solutions available.

If you have a better one, let's hear it.

Steve · « **Reply #55 on:** June 11, 2003, 09:47:07 PM »

Solution: Have the bullets that hit friendly planes be duds.

Why is this so unreasonable? If your bullets hit friendly buildings they don't do damage.. so it's doable.

Shane · « **Reply #56 on:** June 11, 2003, 09:50:07 PM »

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Originally posted by Steve
Solution: Have the bullets that hit friendly planes be duds.

Why is this so unreasonable? If your bullets hit friendly buildings they don't do damage.. so it's doable.

still encourages spraying in the conga line.

have it affect *both* shooter and shootee.

Steve · « **Reply #57 on:** June 11, 2003, 10:31:08 PM »

I understand that Shane... but what's the big deal about that?
I don't find myself in many conga lines, and I doubt you do.

Besides, what would you or I care if someone was "conga spraying" behind us. We're closer, and probably better shots.

Shane · « **Reply #58 on:** June 12, 2003, 01:09:25 PM »

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Originally posted by Steve
I understand that Shane... but what's the big deal about that?
I don't find myself in many conga lines, and I doubt you do.

Besides, what would you or I care if someone was "conga spraying" behind us. We're closer, and probably better shots.

i'm in the lead of quite a few at times...

the curse of being willing to mix it up...

and that's the point exactly about killshooter affecting *both*... someone better pull off or hold off...

i worry less about killshooter than you would, i'm sure.

whels · « **Reply #59 on:** June 12, 2003, 01:16:51 PM »

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Originally posted by Karnak
They were probably thinking that it is the best solution from among all the imperfect solutions available.

If you have a better one, let's hear it.

how about this for KS.

Zero's both Shooter and Shootee's ammo counters. as it is right now only 1 of the 2 parties at fualt get penalized. destruction
of ur plane is not fair when the other pilot just as much at fualt as u are, gets off with 0 penalty.

Whels