Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Vudak on July 21, 2008, 12:54:58 PM
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Lately, I’ve been thinking about what Combat Tour will bring to our community. Personally, I think it will be a grand success that will bring many new players to our game. On the other hand, this will for a time dilute the talent level and overstrain the trainers.
There is a large group of people that try to help people out unofficially, but for a new player, running into one that has the specific talents and teaching style needed is a largely hit or miss affair. I propose that we take some basic steps to organize ourselves to make it easier for all of us to help other players.
The reason for needing this is that not all of us that help are qualified to help in certain areas. For example, if I am working with a guy, and he tells me, “Gee, I’d really like to learn how to energy fight,” I know very well that I am not the guy to teach him. Sure, I can explain the basics, but as far as pushing his limits and such, I just can’t do it. It’s not what I practice every day. It’s something that I need a lot of help in myself.
Unfortunately, as it stands, I don’t always have a great idea of where to send this fellow. Let’s change that. I’d appreciate it if everyone who is willing to help would fill out a simple dossier in this thread, first with your general information:
Call Sign:
BBS Handle:
General Location/Times Available:
Email: (You may omit, or use spaces, etc. to get around spammers)
Preferred Contact Method:
And then with some more specific information:
Online Flight Sim Experience:
Preferred Aircraft:
General Style: (Sure, most of us mix it up, but what best describes you in general?)
Can Teach Topics: (Angles, BnZ, Energy, GV, Level Bombing, Jabo, 1v1, 1v2, etc.)
Teaching Method: (TA? DA? Lecture/Email? MA sorties? Etc.)
Can Teach Skill Level(s): (Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced, Expert)
I think this could really help out the community in a number of ways. It will help the official trainers in that they’ll have a ready list of people they can send their students to for extra practice, it will help guys who can’t meet an official trainer for whatever reason meet up with someone else, it will help those of us looking to push it to the next level find the people that can help us do that, and it will help give new guys a running start in the community as they’ll now know a more experienced person, and have at least one online friend.
If you think this is a useful idea, please sign up. The official trainers are more than welcome (and encouraged) to fill this out as well.
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Call Sign: Vudak
BBS Handle: Vudak
General Location/Times Available: Eastern USA, Evenings
Email: Vudak at yahoo . com
Preferred Contact Method: BBS Private Message
Online Flight Sim Experience: Began flying AW in ’98, AH in ’04.
Preferred Aircraft: F4U Corsair, all models.
General Style: Aggressive Angles Fighter.
Can Teach Topics: Basic to intermediate 1v1, Corsair tips & tricks.
Teaching Method: TA or DA practice with email review.
Can Teach Skill Level(s): Beginner to intermediate. Can generally hold my own vs. advanced, but can’t promise you’ll end up being the student.
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Call Sign: Dichodog
BBS Handle: Dichotomy
General Location/Times Available: Sketchy but willing to do 30 minutes here and there to help a new guy
Email: will PM
Preferred Contact Method: email or pm
And then with some more specific information:
Online Flight Sim Experience: 2 years
Preferred Aircraft: P51D, Spit 8
General Style: Not good at anything
Can Teach Topics: Basics. Turning on engine, setting radio, dot commands, etiquette, very basic flight maneuvers, and willing to fly a target drone for a new guy.
Teaching Method: Take them away from the crowd and be patient
Can Teach Skill Level(s): Beginner
I like this idea Vudak.. I'll start putting in some more time in the TA as time allows. Keep me posted.
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Call Sign: Adonai
BBS Handle: Adonai
General Location/Times Available: Florida, Tampa 1pm - 5pm EST
Email: adonai @ jagdgeschwader7.com
Preferred Contact Method: aim - misconduc or email
And then with some more specific information:
Online Flight Sim Experience: 11 years
Preferred Aircraft: Me109k4
General Style: Furballer
Can Teach Topics: Angles, BnZ, Energy, GV, Level Bombing, Jabo, 1v1, 1v2
Teaching Method: TA and Main arena (wingman)
Can Teach Skill Level(s): Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced
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Call Sign: McWatt
BBS Handle: Yossarian
General Location/Times Available: London, UK (timings will vary A LOT - sometimes almost all day, other times rarely ever)
Email: see PMs, please
Preferred Contact Method: PM and e-mail if possible
And then with some more specific information:
Online Flight Sim Experience: Microsoft FS2000, then FS2004 for a few years, then FSX for a week or two (computer not good enough for it), and now Aces High for maybe a year
Preferred Aircraft: B-25H, Spitfires, T-bolts
General Style: Do whatever I can (within reason) to get a kill or two. Sometimes I get a few kills a night, other times none.
Can Teach Topics: GV, Level Bombing, Jabo, B-25ing, take-offs and landings
Teaching Method: TA, E-mail, MA sorties. And what Dichotomy said, being patient etc.
Can Teach Skill Level(s): Beginner
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Call Sign: ImADot
BBS Handle: ImADot
General Location/Times Available: Central USA, Evenings
Email:
Preferred Contact Method: If you see me online, just holler
Online Flight Sim Experience: AH2 since about March '08
Preferred Aircraft: Early War planes: Hurricane, Zeke, etc.
General Style: TnB with some E-fighting
Can Teach Topics: Basic Flight, basic ACM, level bombing, how to die properly, PATIENCE AND RESPECT
Teaching Method: TA or DA practice, quiet spot in EW Arena.
Can Teach Skill Level(s): Noob to Advanced Beginner
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Vudak, while I applaud your effort I'm not so sure this is actually a good idea. Some that I see signing up are the same people that spend a fair amount of time here in the H&T Forum asking questions themselves. I can also envision specific individuals signing up who might fancy themselves as trainers, but are actually clueless.
Potentially teaching someone improper proceedures or bad habits may actually do more harm than good. Unlearning bad habits is difficult.
The AH trainers have been selected because they fully understand the fundamentals of the game, the complexities of ACM and also have the ability to teach these fundamentals to others.
The resources available; the trainers site, the AH help files, Soda's and DocGonzo's sites, this forum, the Aircraft and Vehicle forum and others provide a wealth of information should someone be inclined to want to learn more about an aspect of the game. More importantly, these resources are reviewed by the community and inaccuracies, ambiguities and outright bad information is quicky caught and rectified. How can you be certain the same applies to "unofficial player/trainers"?
I don't want to rain on your parade but just thought I'd share my hessitation.
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BaldEagl,
I understand your concern (and have thought about some of your points myself), but let's look at it this way:
Anyone who signs up for this thread is already trying to help guys out. Whether or not this thread exists, they're still going to do that. So if they are in fact teaching an innaccuracy, etc., the other guys still need to work to correct the problem.
With this though, the people who end up having to correct the problem at least have a ready list they can run down to see if there's someone that could help out. That person probably has a good idea of which people are going to help, and which people are not. It's basically a referral system.
That said, there's nothing wrong with a beginner saying, "Hey, I'll take some time out of my day to help you understand the basics, but those are my limitations." Our public schools have grades K-12, after all, and if someone can teach a guy even just how to take off, it really helps out.
I guess what I'm trying to say is I understand your concern, but think the benefits outweigh the possible side effects.
I think that so long as people are honest in their dossier, the problem will be minimized.
But as far as, "Some that I see signing up are the same people that spend a fair amount of time here in the H&T Forum asking questions themselves..."
Well, gee, that applies to everyone playing this game :)
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Bald
I've been thinking for a long time that something with some structure to it would be beneficial to AH and the Trainers Corps.
For my part I'd make my limitations known. I don't teach ACM, SA, or maneuvering. I'll teach a guy how to turn his engine on and off, how to get off the ground with and without autotakeoff, give them some basic idea of how to land, how to tune the radio, the basic dot commands, how to set up their offline practices, turn on and off the lead computed gunsight, and such. After getting them off the ground and comfortable in their plane and they have the ability to do these basic things I'd hand em off to the trainers or someone with a higher level of playing skill than I do. This could free up the trainers to work with the intermediate to advanced players more often. Having a list of people willing to help with their known limitations could be a tool for the official trainers as well. Example; Ghost sees me come in and he's got a guy that's on his two week trial and can't figure out how to get his engine started. He can holler at me and say 'dicho playerX needs the basics can you help him I'm doing a training session right now'.
I see what you're saying and I don't want to teach someone how to do it wrong so I'm offering well short of my abilities so I don't stray to grey and hurt someones progress.
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I've been on both sides of this equation. I spent something like a year or 18 months as a trainer here and I've worked with players of varying skill levels both before and afterward. Speaking from 1st hand experience I'll add the following...
1) A players ability to "fly" and his ability to "teach" arent always interrelated. Not every hot stick can actually teach and some guys actually teach better then they fly.
2) There have always been a number of "informal trainers" in the TA (and to a degree in the MA and DA)...some are every bit as good as most of the formal trainers...and some are totally clueless IMO.
3) The only way to learn to be a trainer is to start, its a OJT type of thing.
4) Value is in the eye of the end user, if a guy feels he's getting good solid advice that shows tangible results then its working for him.
Now IMO a cadre of "certified assistant trainers" would go along way in helping to spread the load. Either by "check ride" or prior knowledge folks could gain a "seal of approval" and an invite to a TA squad organized for that purpose. It would serve as an additional resource as well as a potential pool for futute trainers as needed/wanted...
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I'll hold my reservations/thoughts on this thread to myself, and just let it be known that HTC & the Trainer corps have already planned ahead for Combat Tour and also for some other things.....and will leave any other comments/opinions/thoughts to be addressed by the current Head Trainer, Murdr.......
I am sure he will reply, once he gets home and does not have to try and type on his mobile phone ( LOL )
and we always appreciate people wanting to help us help others....... ~SALUTE~
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I'm going to leave it at this, I am of the opinion that networking/organizing the guys that already help out is a good thing.
I am also of the opinion that there is no substitute for an official trainer.
Finally, if Murdr, et al, get together and decide that this is a bad/harmful thing for any reason, I will be ok with looking in this forum and seeing the thread deleted. I won't make an issue of it. This is your forum, trainers, you make the call.
I'm trying to help, not hurt. If you feel like I've opened a can of worms, kindly toss it off the deep end.
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This thread is very well intended. <SALUTE>
Maybe some trainers wil be born of this thread. The down side is that there may be those who make claims of being able to teach at an advanced level when they have no right to make that claim. I believe this was already mentioned.
The fact is, most experienced sticks are already unofficial trainers to one degree or another. Vudak is looking for a way to catalogue them and make their names known to the masses. With this sort of informal training going on already, is this really such a bad idea?
I don't claim to be an ace so when someone asks for a ridealong I let them but always give a disclaimer regarding any level of skill.* :aok
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The fact is, most experienced sticks are already unofficial trainers to one degree or another. Vudak is looking for a way to catalogue them and make their names known to the masses. With this sort of informal training going on already, is this really such a bad idea?
That's exactly what I was getting at, thanks for clarifying, Steve :salute
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i can be found in the TA often...i just dont feel like filling that thing out :D
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come on DB... I'll let you use the purple crayon :D
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Call-sign: Banshee7
BBS Handle: DickBong
General Location/Times Available: CST usally midday or later in the evening, mostly late night
E-mail: ahbanshee7 at yahoo . com
Preferred Contact Method: BBS Private message
Online Flight Sim Experience: AH since March 2007
Preferred Aircraft: P-38 lightning (can fly most all planes to some extent)
General Style: TnB with a mix of E fighting
Can Teach Topics: 1v1 fighting, Jaboing, P-38 tips
Teaching Method: Training Arena with final test being DA
Can Teach Skill Level(s): Beginner to Intermediate. I dont like dealing with complete clueless n00bs and, some say im modest, my skill level isn't good enough for "advanced" sticks
come on DB... I'll let you use the purple crayon :D
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:rofl :rofl :rofl
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To anyone who has doubts about this: I think humble's idea about "check rides" for these unofficial trainers would sort out most potential problems with this. I for one know that so far, I'm pretty much hopeless with any ACM more complex than a barrel roll (I just don't really understand how other things fit together, and my air-to-air gunnery isn't exactly impressive (to put it very mildly). However, I am fairly good at the B-25H's pumpkin-lobber, and am still working on it. In addition to this, I rarely ever foul up any landing in any aircraft, and I usually take-off successfully from a turning CV. Whilst I'm sure many other players can do all of the above and more, I'm more than willing to be very patient with anyone in the TA, or MA who needs help.
I really hope this idea gets the go-ahead. Also, since many of the trainers that I know of live in the USA, for people like me (in London), it can require a late night (although I'm almost always up late anyway) to get in contact with a trainer. If this programme were approved, it would allow players to access unofficial trainers at many more times.
<S>
Yossarian
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The resources available; the trainers site, the AH help files, Soda's and DocGonzo's sites, this forum, the Aircraft and Vehicle forum and others provide a wealth of information should someone be inclined to want to learn more about an aspect of the game. More importantly, these resources are reviewed by the community and inaccuracies, ambiguities and outright bad information is quicky caught and rectified. How can you be certain the same applies to "unofficial player/trainers"?
While these are great places and I am a frequent flyer at all of them . They only give an explanation . Performance oriented training also requires a demonstration then practical application .
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Callsign: BJ229r
step 1:RTFM!
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This thread is very well intended. <SALUTE>
Maybe some trainers wil be born of this thread. The down side is that there may be those who make claims of being able to teach at an advanced level when they have no right to make that claim. I believe this was already mentioned.
The fact is, most experienced sticks are already unofficial trainers to one degree or another. Vudak is looking for a way to catalogue them and make their names known to the masses. With this sort of informal training going on already, is this really such a bad idea?
most excellent reply, Steve....... I had a talk with Vudak expressing to him, with him being my long time good friend, my reservations/thoughts and I believe we both agreed with my thoughts.......which revolved around part of your quote:
The down side is that there may be those who make claims of being able to teach at an advanced level when they have no right to make that claim.
and I too agree with your quote of:
This thread is very well intended. <SALUTE>
Last thing, Vudak, I need to correct you on one thing, Sir! you said:
This is your forum, trainers, you make the call.
No Sir, this is not The Trainers Forum, we do try to keep it all in good content, but this is The Aces High Community Help & Training Forum.it belongs to the Community, it is just where the trainers do most of their posting ;) :salute
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:lol
Call Sign: PERVERT
BBS Handle: PERVERT
General Location/Times Available: 10am sharp by the pool
Preferred Contact Method: carrier pigeon
Online swimming Experience: 7 years
Preferred trunks: speedos
General Style: backstroke and doggy
Can Teach Topics: padding speedos, peeing in pool undetected
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:lol
Call Sign: PERVERT
BBS Handle: PERVERT
General Location/Times Available: 10am sharp by the pool
Preferred Contact Method: carrier pigeon
Online swimming Experience: 7 years
Preferred trunks: speedos
General Style: backstroke and doggy
Can Teach Topics: padding speedos, peeing in pool undetected
sign me up can we meet at the Y.M.C.A ? :rofl :rofl
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Call Sign: Delirium
BBS Handle: Delirium
General Location/Times Available: EST- but I work nights, I can move my time online around as needed
Email: only given to repeat students
Preferred Contact Method: PM via the forums
Online Flight Sim Experience: I was in AirWarrior in 1993 and served as a trainer there, I've been in AH since 2000/2001
Preferred Aircraft: P38J
General Style: Both Boom and Zoom, and Turn and Burn, the P38 has to choose, depending on the target
Can Teach Topics: P38 centric fighting only, no GVs, no Jabo
Teaching Method: An exchange of films to review, TA, and 1v1s
Can Teach Skill Level(s): Intermediate to Advanced
note- I will only teach students serious about learning the P38 over a minimum of 3 sessions. You must have a joystick, fly with stall limiter off, and be at least as mature as I am. A throttle, pedals, and a microphone are a plus but not necessary.
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As TC indicated, HTC and the Trainers have been communicating for awhile about the direction of future plans for training. I think we're ok in that regard.
Something that could really help in the way of disseminating information about BFM, game mechanics, and aircraft, is getting more knowledgable contributors involved in AHWiki (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page). I basically stopped flying for awhile to make time for contributing in the pre-launch setup. We just don't have the extra time as a group to take advantage of its capibilities. Actually, there is even potential to provide the kind of player information that was asked for via the ahwiki user pages.
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As TC indicated, HTC and the Trainers have been communicating for awhile about the direction of future plans for training. I think we're ok in that regard.
Something that could really help in the way of disseminating information about BFM, game mechanics, and aircraft, is getting more knowledgable contributors involved in AHWiki (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page). I basically stopped flying for awhile to make time for contributing in the pre-launch setup. We just don't have the extra time as a group to take advantage of its capibilities. Actually, there is even potential to provide the kind of player information that was asked for via the ahwiki user pages.
I tried contributing to the Wiki when it was first released. I couldn't figure out how to create a page or link it to the right topic and gave up never to try again. I'm not computer illiterate either.
I'm guessing some instructions might be useful if others had the same experience I did.
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I tried contributing to the Wiki when it was first released. I couldn't figure out how to create a page or link it to the right topic and gave up never to try again. I'm not computer illiterate either.
I'm guessing some instructions might be useful if others had the same experience I did.
I sense a new AH2-Wiki Training Wing (to be attached to the Training Corps) will soon be created. :lol
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I tried contributing to the Wiki when it was first released. I couldn't figure out how to create a page or link it to the right topic and gave up never to try again. I'm not computer illiterate either.
I'm guessing some instructions might be useful if others had the same experience I did.
Some help articles exist. See:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Help:Contents
and Wikipedia has some more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Contents
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Call Sign:UberSlet
BBS Handle:UberSlet
General Location/Times Available:Monday-Friday 12 noon-8PM EST
Email: Kebrown@tek2000.net
Preferred Contact Method:Email or BBS message
Online Flight Sim Experience:2 years Aces High
Preferred Aircraft:F4U, Spitfire, P38
General Style: Boom and Zoom, turn and burn
Can Teach Topics: BnZ, GV, Jabo, 1v1
Teaching Method:DA (MA for Jabo)
Can Teach Skill Level(s): Beginner
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Alright
Calsign:Bosc0123
BBS Handle: Bosco123
General Location/Times avalible: Eastern Time mostly 7 to 10PM
Email: Bosco123@embarqmail.com
Preferred contact meathod: PM, BB or Email
Online Flight Sim Experience: 1 year of AH
Prefferd Aircraft: All except KI's
General Style: BnZ, TnB
Can Teach Topics: BnZ 1v1, E fighting
Skill Level: Beginner to Advanced
Preferred Teaching Meathod: DA or TA dosn't matter to me
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OK, some of you are sort of misleading here.
If you say you can teach advanced level, be ready that those with advanced skills will come to you to improve on some aspects.
Adonai, do you think you could show some new tricks in angles fighting to those considered to be at advanced skill level?
Bosco, same for you in E fighting.
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Vudak, while I applaud your effort I'm not so sure this is actually a good idea. Blah Blah Blah...
Always a nay sayer.:(
Took less than an hour for you to find this thread and proceeded to take the opposite side. If the 2nd, 3rd or 4th post could only have been a negative one. You would've been all for it then right..... That is how you work isn't it?
I think it's a great idea and believe a few will stick with their pledge and commit for a bit.
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OK, some of you are sort of misleading here.
If you say you can teach advanced level, be ready that those with advanced skills will come to you to improve on some aspects.
Adonai, do you think you could show some new tricks in angles fighting to those considered to be at advanced skill level?
Bosco, same for you in E fighting.
This is exactly the issue at the heart of the matter. While you have a few people who have understated or attempted to qualify their capabilities very carefully you have others who are probably grossly overestimating their place in the universe. By no means does that mean they are not "good sticks" or potentially qualified to teach certain aspects of ACM etc...but unless your good enough to give some pointers to folks like Greebo, bluekitty, Drex, TC, Delirium and a host of others the word "advanced" shouldnt be in your vocabulary. Even if someone is in fact capable of advanced ACM that doesnt mean they can actually teach it consistantly or correctly.
There are alot of people out there giving golf lessons, not all of them are class A PGA pro's, and not all class A pro's are equally capable. For most people that wont matter...but there are an awful lot of "good pro's" out there that arent Hank Haney, Butch Harmon, Chuck Hogan etc...
There are an awful lot of good sticks, probably hundreds of really good sticks and a couple hundred gifted pilots....then you have a very select few that would earn the "advanced" designation IMO...
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OK, some of you are sort of misleading here.
If you say you can teach advanced level, be ready that those with advanced skills will come to you to improve on some aspects.
Adonai, do you think you could show some new tricks in angles fighting to those considered to be at advanced skill level?
Bosco, same for you in E fighting.
That's why i said beginner to intermediate :D
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You know, I agree 100% with what you're saying Humble, but I have to be an optimist and believe that this is in LARGE part my fault.
I originally suggested four main categories: Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced, Expert.
The guys you listed are all well past advanced in my book.
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Always a nay sayer.:(
Took less than an hour for you to find this thread and proceeded to take the opposite side. If the 2nd, 3rd or 4th post could only have been a negative one. You would've been all for it then right..... That is how you work isn't it?
I think it's a great idea and believe a few will stick with their pledge and commit for a bit.
It's a great idea in a sense, and its a bad idea in another. I count Vudak as a squaddie and a friend and hes a very good stick to boot. Guys like him who are constantly seeking to improve and have a very realistic outlook on both their skill level and the ability to communicate ideas and concepts and absorb and integrate new information are always valuable teaching others. Vudak remends me alot of another hog driver I used to wing with a bit MTNMAN.
Personally I think has he continues to evolve he'd be a fine member of the formal training corps. The flip side is you can have alot of people who are interested in being a trainer based on a sense of self worth. Thats why historically those who actively seek are denied and those who simply grow, learn and contribute are asked...its a roll that will seek you out in time. All of the positive things that Vudak takes for granted and views as universal really arent. They are some of the hardest attributes to find and essential for a good trainer in any disipline of life.
So this is a great idea with a serious potential draw back, which is the reality that the self nomination process creates a difficulty since many who feel qualified either arent at all or have a poor understanding of their actual limitations. So either the formal corp of trainers has to be totally hands off or has to step in and ruffle feathers. The current system allows alot of careful deliberation and selectivity without the need to axtively say NO. Those who are considered and found wanting are simply never contacted....
I've seen this issue from the inside and understand Murders (and TC's) position very clearly. While there is potential merit, the potential harm is actually greater in some ways. It's easier to teach then to unteach. This is from 1st hand experience both as a trainer and as a student of the game. Any semi formal body of partially "sanctioned" auxillary trainers can potentiall create more problems then it solves.
All that being said I'm actually for it since we have a large group of "wanna be's" in the TA all the time, some like Bat, Lengro & Vudak {I just left it with some squaddies but there are many others} are very good and quite helpful. Others couldnt poor piss out of a boot if you get my drift. I went in by chance once looking for Bat a few months ago and was tooling around in an A-20. I spent 30 minutes or so being "taught" by a guy who viewed himself as a "trainer" yet could never even gain my 3-9 line while giving me all kinds of pointers...not even realizing I probably passed up 200 shots and broke off and reset the fight 2 dozen times.
If in fact it's possible and can somehow be done I think some sort of "good housekeeping" seal of approval would be great.
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You know, I agree 100% with what you're saying Humble, but I have to be an optimist and believe that this is in LARGE part my fault.
I originally suggested four main categories: Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced, Expert.
The guys you listed are all well past advanced in my book.
I was typing the longer response while you replied.
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So this is a great idea with a serious potential draw back, which is the reality that the self nomination process creates a difficulty since many who feel qualified either arent at all or have a poor understanding of their actual limitations. So either the formal corp of trainers has to be totally hands off or has to step in and ruffle feathers.
[snip]
I've seen this issue from the inside and understand Murders (and TC's) position very clearly. While there is potential merit, the potential harm is actually greater in some ways. It's easier to teach then to unteach. This is from 1st hand experience both as a trainer and as a student of the game. Any semi formal body of partially "sanctioned" auxillary trainers can potentiall create more problems then it solves.
All that being said I'm actually for it since we have a large group of "wanna be's" in the TA all the time, some like Bat, Lengro & Vudak {I just left it with some squaddies but there are many others} are very good and quite helpful. Others couldnt poor piss out of a boot if you get my drift. I went in by chance once looking for Bat a few months ago and was tooling around in an A-20. I spent 30 minutes or so being "taught" by a guy who viewed himself as a "trainer" yet could never even gain my 3-9 line while giving me all kinds of pointers...not even realizing I probably passed up 200 shots and broke off and reset the fight 2 dozen times.
If in fact it's possible and can somehow be done I think some sort of "good housekeeping" seal of approval would be great.
I think that a check-out ride by an official trainer in each area that an incumbent (please tell me if that's the wrong word) unofficial trainer has said they feel qualified to teach in would solve the overwhelming majority of potential problems with this proposal. Whilst there would undoubtedly be some ruffled feathers, I'd say that if an applicant is offended by being turned down, that just goes to show they wouldn't be 'qualified' to teach in that area.
Whilst I agree that an unqualified unofficial trainer can do a lot of harm, if a vetting process were introduced, I feel that unofficial trainers could do huge amounts of good work for all players. In addition to this, assuming that an unofficial trainer means well and is accepted (if this proposal goes ahead), a short list of guidelines sent to that unofficial trainer about the areas they will teach (written by an actual trainer) would be extremely helpful and eliminate many potential errors.
Personally, I know that I can land successfully almost 100% of the time. Granted, I may not always come down in one piece, but I almost invariably hit the tarmac and get a successful landing (as in tonight I lost engine oil and half a wing of a Hellcat, had an A-20 and a Ki-61 closing in, and was going to overshoot the carrier, however I still dropped enough speed fast enough to land my kills, even though I ripped off the rest of my wings). The reason why I think I should be an unofficial trainer is because I see a lot of new players asking for help with all sorts of things, and I am confident that I know how to land, take-off, and know enough of the game mechanics to be extremely helpful to a confused new player. Whilst other people undoubtedly know far more about these areas than I, I think I still know enough to provide a solid grounding to any new player, which would then help more advanced players to be of even greater use to that person.
<S>
Yossarian
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I volunteered to be a Trainer and was told "thanks for calling". I now only help those who ask for it.
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OK, some of you are sort of misleading here.
If you say you can teach advanced level, be ready that those with advanced skills will come to you to improve on some aspects.
Adonai, do you think you could show some new tricks in angles fighting to those considered to be at advanced skill level?
Bosco, same for you in E fighting.
My whole fighting style is based on E fighting, I know it very well and know how to use it. I can also get down and dirty with a hard TnB also.
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Having read the latest replies, I think my original idea could have used several revisions and a few more nights' sleep. I say this because I'm getting the feeling that some are looking at this as though I was implying we should start a "supplemental" or "unofficial" trainer "program..." Obviously, one can just look at the thread's title, and see that I messed up right there.
I used the phrase, "Unofficial Trainer" on the merit of it being a short way to say "Hey you guys that regularly help out people instead of telling them to wander off - read this please!" That was a big mistake.
Steve did nail it though, the whole idea is just to have a way that those of us who do help out unofficially could know who each other are, for the purposes of being able to refer guys to others that can help them out...
For example, I was in the 475th for about a year. I've winged with some excellent P-38 sticks, and if someone asked me who was a good one, I could go on and on and on. But if someone asked me, "Well who will teach me it?" ... My list is all of a sudden very short. Before this thread, I did not know that Del was willing to do it. Now I do, and can pass on that knowledge without feeling as though I'm imposing something on him.
I did think about the possibility that some people would overestimate or misinterpret their own abilities, but at the same time, I was looking at this as a "Referral Service..." I'm not going to ever refer a guy to a lawyer based on that lawyer's ad... I'm going to refer a guy to a lawyer based on what I've personally seen that lawyer do. I kind of figured the same would apply here.
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As far as there actually being an "official" unofficial trainer role... Well, that kind of defeats the whole spirit of this thing in my eyes, and personally, I know I wouldn't want to be put in that sort of role, for various reasons. The more I think about it, the less I like the idea in general. Just look at what a few kills does to channel 200... A possible "hire" for *any* official role in HTC, even as just something like a student teacher, should always, always, always be a "We'll call you" situation.
The whole idea is to give everyone a list of people they can call. The trainers can, if they want, call in a guy to help demonstrate something. The guys slugging it away helping newbies in the DA can refer them to people who they personally know could help them in things they themselves can't do. The newbies could at least know which people are going to say, "Sure, I have a minute," and not just "RTFM" (or worse).
Basically, it's just the thought of organizing what is already going on - and I still think that's a prudent idea. Not to be a tinfoil hat guy, but when I said that I think Combat Tour will be a grand success, I meant financially for HTC. In terms of average player skill and helper/helpee ratio, it will be a complete and total disaster. You think summer's bad? Just wait ;)
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I volunteered to be a Trainer and was told "thanks for calling". I now only help those who ask for it.
When the TA has 20+ people in there i ALWAYS go there to give the trainers a hand. I might not be much help but theres someone in there that i can always help.
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Always a nay sayer.:(
Took less than an hour for you to find this thread and proceeded to take the opposite side. If the 2nd, 3rd or 4th post could only have been a negative one. You would've been all for it then right..... That is how you work isn't it?
I don't "work" any way but to offer my unbiased opinion. Sometimes it agrees, sometimes it disagrees and I personally don't care whether YOU agree with it or not. It's my opinion and I'm entitled to it.
I did start by saying I applauded the effort. On the surface it's a good idea and I was tempted to add my name but as I thought about that I realized that deeper in there were inevitable issues.
Nothing against you Bosco, you know I like you, but I think you've grossly overestimated your abilities. To think you have something to offer to the likes of Widewing, FX, Steve, SHawk and a host of others in E fighting after only one year of play doesn't seem likely. Very few achieve that level that quickly and this simply points out one of my original reservations.
As to a network of people to refer people to we all know who the good sticks are in their respective rides. You want to learn about F4U's see Saxman, Ki-61's see Karaya, F6F's/FM2's see SlapShot, Yaks see Gixer, A-20's see Humble. You want game basics ask Lusche or The Fugitive. The list goes on and on. That doesn't mean their willing to take the time to teach you but there's no harm in asking. The list of "unofficial trainers" can be culled from this very forum in very short order.
I really don't see a problem with things the way they've worked in the past; a player wants to work on something, posts here and gets a few responses from people available at the same times. Sure, many of the same issues still exist but at least there's no facade that they are meeting with a trainer, official or not.
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if a vetting process were introduced, I feel that unofficial trainers could do huge amounts of good work for all players.
If that is to be the case, I'd like to remove my name from the list. Frankly, if I have to go through that many hoops to take on a single student at a time, I might as well just apply for regular trainer status instead. The reason I'm not interested in regular trainer status is the fact they have to float from student to student and you don't see the progression of the student (ie improvement) on a daily basis. The most rewarding thing is seeing someone's confidence build and telling you, "That move you showed me yesterday really helped me in the MA!" If someone doesn't think I'm qualified to help them learn the P38, then by all means, don't ask me.
I get a lot of PMs asking for help with the P38, if someone is serious about learning it and has flown it for some time, generally I'll help them. Among the reasons I have declined is; inability to listen, being a channel 200 rant monkey, and I don't feel qualified to teach mouse flyers.
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I don't "work" any way but to offer my unbiased opinion. Sometimes it agrees, sometimes it disagrees and I personally don't care whether YOU agree with it or not. It's my opinion and I'm entitled to it.
I did start by saying I applauded the effort. On the surface it's a good idea and I was tempted to add my name but as I thought about that I realized that deeper in there were inevitable issues.
Hey BaldEagl, you're certainly entitled to offer your unbiased opinion and I certainly didn't have any issue with the way you said it <S>.
I will remark that though we all know who the good sticks are in what (well, I don't in a few aircraft), just from my perspective the past four years it has at times felt like a hit or miss situation running into one that is also available at my times, willing to help at my times, etc.
I figured the idea had some good points, you pointed out some bad points. I don't know too many ideas that hit the ground running from the first concept. Most are revised/edited/changed/etc. This could certainly use some. At the same time, it's a tool I'd like to have for myself, in some form, in the future.
<S> and thanks for your thoughts
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If. Among the reasons I have declined is being a channel 200 rant monkey, .
Dang! I had hoped you would teach me the 38... :D
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If that is to be the case, I'd like to remove my name from the list. Frankly, if I have to go through that many hoops to take on a single student at a time, I might as well just apply for regular trainer status instead. The reason I'm not interested in regular trainer status is the fact they have to float from student to student and you don't see the progression of the student (ie improvement) on a daily basis. The most rewarding thing is seeing someone's confidence build and telling you, "That move you showed me yesterday really helped me in the MA!" If someone doesn't think I'm qualified to help them learn the P38, then by all means, don't ask me.
I get a lot of PMs asking for help with the P38, if someone is serious about learning it and has flown it for some time, generally I'll help them. Among the reasons I have declined is; inability to listen, being a channel 200 rant monkey, and I don't feel qualified to teach mouse flyers.
I tend to get a few pms for guys I just killed on how to teach them the 109s and all I do is just point em in the direction of agent because altough we may use the same acm hes a far better and more vocal teacher than I, same goes for bovi,air,tex :)
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Having read the latest replies, I think my original idea could have used several revisions and a few more nights' sleep. I say this because I'm getting the feeling that some are looking at this as though I was implying we should start a "supplemental" or "unofficial" trainer "program..." Obviously, one can just look at the thread's title, and see that I messed up right there.
I used the phrase, "Unofficial Trainer" on the merit of it being a short way to say "Hey you guys that regularly help out people instead of telling them to wander off - read this please!" That was a big mistake.
Steve did nail it though, the whole idea is just to have a way that those of us who do help out unofficially could know who each other are, for the purposes of being able to refer guys to others that can help them out...
For example, I was in the 475th for about a year. I've winged with some excellent P-38 sticks, and if someone asked me who was a good one, I could go on and on and on. But if someone asked me, "Well who will teach me it?" ... My list is all of a sudden very short. Before this thread, I did not know that Del was willing to do it. Now I do, and can pass on that knowledge without feeling as though I'm imposing something on him.
I did think about the possibility that some people would overestimate or misinterpret their own abilities, but at the same time, I was looking at this as a "Referral Service..." I'm not going to ever refer a guy to a lawyer based on that lawyer's ad... I'm going to refer a guy to a lawyer based on what I've personally seen that lawyer do. I kind of figured the same would apply here.
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As far as there actually being an "official" unofficial trainer role... Well, that kind of defeats the whole spirit of this thing in my eyes, and personally, I know I wouldn't want to be put in that sort of role, for various reasons. The more I think about it, the less I like the idea in general. Just look at what a few kills does to channel 200... A possible "hire" for *any* official role in HTC, even as just something like a student teacher, should always, always, always be a "We'll call you" situation.
The whole idea is to give everyone a list of people they can call. The trainers can, if they want, call in a guy to help demonstrate something. The guys slugging it away helping newbies in the DA can refer them to people who they personally know could help them in things they themselves can't do. The newbies could at least know which people are going to say, "Sure, I have a minute," and not just "RTFM" (or worse).
Basically, it's just the thought of organizing what is already going on - and I still think that's a prudent idea. Not to be a tinfoil hat guy, but when I said that I think Combat Tour will be a grand success, I meant financially for HTC. In terms of average player skill and helper/helpee ratio, it will be a complete and total disaster. You think summer's bad? Just wait ;)
Ok want to add one more point in favor of this . Vudak sought me out in the DA and has spent a considerable amount of time helping me . I dont know where he would rank in your system , but let me say this . I started a thread about how to fight F4U v Spits . I got some great answers that in fact helped me . I stopped committing the same old mistakes . Letting them pop me from a zoom climb while I was trying to rope was one in particular . Vudak spent a few hours 1v1'ing me F4U-1a against my beloved Mk. IX . Now guys who regularly beat me need an advantage to do so most of the time <not talking guys like mntman or Vudak> . Now when I see a Corsair my first thought is not " where is my line of retreat" . It is "okay lets remember what we learned and make them fight our fight" . One other slightly funny aspect of Vudaks help is this . I no longer think in my head "dam dam dam please dont let it be a stinkin lousy rotten -1c" it is more like "if I am lucky it isn't one of those -1a's" . The point is this Vudak had to seek me out , I can't be the only fresh meat that wants to improve . A way to help us green peas identify the Vudaks of this community would help greatly . On a more personal side Vudak sorry my dsl router took a giant dump took me a few hours to get a new one . I am way anxious to continue with the 2 other Mks. of spittys we started on the other day . <S> to you all .
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I just wanted to add a few things just because you are a good stick does not make you a good trainer. There is a certain art form to teaching and most people don't have have it. I have trained with both trainers and unofficial trainers and the biggest difference I see is the lack of teaching abilities, The trainers do a great job of getting there point across, showing an example and most important keeping the students attention. I have noticed with the "unofficial trainers" that they are not as good at this, I see people that just read out a printed description of ACM to the guy, That is not training, it reading to someone. Yes they have the knowledge, but they just don't know how to explain/teach it correctly. I have worked with Ren, Rolex, and Murdr at this point and all of them were very good at the teaching part of being a trainer. They speak well, they become engaged with their student, they pick up on the students weaknesses and evolve their lesson plan around them to accommodate. Next, Public Speaking, here is the biggest down fall of most unofficial trainers, They have little to no public speaking skills, they end up just mumbling on nonstop in one long run on sentence.
Someone is going to need to write up the "Unofficial Trainers Official Training Guide".I think if you really go through with the "unofficial trainers" you need them to read some sort of trainers training manual, A guide to teaching ACM if you will. Perhaps the trainers have one they would share.
I do applaud the effort as i see many many aimlessly wondering pilots in the TA, and MA for that matter. I just hope the people involved take the time to learn how to be a trainer, and take the job as seriously as the trainers do and with the same level of dedication.
:salute
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Call Sign: Zylber
General Location/Times Available: depends on the day.
Preferred Contact Method: BBS Private Message
Online Flight Sim Experience: 2 years.
Preferred Aircraft: Bf 109 (any model), Bf 110 G2, Ju 87.
Can Teach Topics: dive-bombing, bomber-intercepting.
Teaching Method: MA observer or wingman
Can Teach Skill Level(s): Beginner.
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So far, the people that I've seen filling in the 'form' for this seem to be pretty much 'OK', as in they don't appear to be the sort of players who would apply for this knowing that they're not qualified to do so.
Whilst I know and accept that this isn't my call, in my opinion this programme should be given a trial run, and then a final decision be made in future as to whether to continue or not. If it is tried out, then I'd recommend using everyone who has applied so far, having the official trainers schedule TA appointments with these people, and ensure that each of us is 'qualified' to teach whatever we've applied to teach. Then, an official trainer could write up a quick list of bullet points for how to teach, and very general things about each topic area, and then everyone who was accepted would then go ahead and try and help new players.
Just my $0.02,
<S>
Yossarian
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I just wanted to add a few things just because you are a good stick does not make you a good trainer. There is a certain art form to teaching and most people don't have have it. I have trained with both trainers and unofficial trainers and the biggest difference I see is the lack of teaching abilities, The trainers do a great job of getting there point across, showing an example and most important keeping the students attention. I have noticed with the "unofficial trainers" that they are not as good at this, I see people that just read out a printed description of ACM to the guy, That is not training, it reading to someone. Yes they have the knowledge, but they just don't know how to explain/teach it correctly. I have worked with Ren, Rolex, and Murdr at this point and all of them were very good at the teaching part of being a trainer. They speak well, they become engaged with their student, they pick up on the students weaknesses and evolve their lesson plan around them to accommodate. Next, Public Speaking, here is the biggest down fall of most unofficial trainers, They have little to no public speaking skills, they end up just mumbling on nonstop in one long run on sentence.
Someone is going to need to write up the "Unofficial Trainers Official Training Guide".I think if you really go through with the "unofficial trainers" you need them to read some sort of trainers training manual, A guide to teaching ACM if you will. Perhaps the trainers have one they would share.
I do applaud the effort as i see many many aimlessly wondering pilots in the TA, and MA for that matter. I just hope the people involved take the time to learn how to be a trainer, and take the job as seriously as the trainers do and with the same level of dedication.
:salute
I think CaptFish should become a trainer.
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So far, the people that I've seen filling in the 'form' for this seem to be pretty much 'OK', as in they don't appear to be the sort of players who would apply for this knowing that they're not qualified to do so.
Whilst I know and accept that this isn't my call, in my opinion this programme should be given a trial run, and then a final decision be made in future as to whether to continue or not. If it is tried out, then I'd recommend using everyone who has applied so far, having the official trainers schedule TA appointments with these people, and ensure that each of us is 'qualified' to teach whatever we've applied to teach. Then, an official trainer could write up a quick list of bullet points for how to teach, and very general things about each topic area, and then everyone who was accepted would then go ahead and try and help new players.
It's not a program and no applications are accepted...
Just see it as yellow pages of sort.
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I think CaptFish should become a trainer.
I will help a Noob anytime, and can often be found in the TA, But I will remain and indepent at this time as I have no time to commit. :salute
Babysitting the squad has me busy :D
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It's not a program and no applications are accepted...
Just see it as yellow pages of sort.
Well, I was speaking hypothetically.
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OK, some of you are sort of misleading here.
If you say you can teach advanced level, be ready that those with advanced skills will come to you to improve on some aspects.
Adonai, do you think you could show some new tricks in angles fighting to those considered to be at advanced skill level?
Bosco, same for you in E fighting.
I believe it is safe to say, 2bighorn is a player that most of the players and possibly most every good quality stick-old vet would listen to and stand with when a judgement call is made. Here he has pointed out the very problem with how some claim to be alot more than they actually are.
Good Examples of People Offering their services and who are being modest or very modest in their capabilities to help Teach:
Good Example #1
Call Sign: Vudak
BBS Handle: Vudak
General Location/Times Available: Eastern USA, Evenings
Email: Vudak at yahoo . com
Preferred Contact Method: BBS Private Message
Online Flight Sim Experience: Began flying AW in ’98, AH in ’04.
Preferred Aircraft: F4U Corsair, all models.
General Style: Aggressive Angles Fighter.
Can Teach Topics: Basic to intermediate 1v1, Corsair tips & tricks.
Teaching Method: TA or DA practice with email review.
Can Teach Skill Level(s): Beginner to intermediate. Can generally hold my own vs. advanced, but can’t promise you’ll end up being the student.
Good Example #2
Call Sign: Delirium
BBS Handle: Delirium
General Location/Times Available: EST- but I work nights, I can move my time online around as needed
Email: only given to repeat students
Preferred Contact Method: PM via the forums
Online Flight Sim Experience: I was in AirWarrior in 1993 and served as a trainer there, I've been in AH since 2000/2001
Preferred Aircraft: P38J
General Style: Both Boom and Zoom, and Turn and Burn, the P38 has to choose, depending on the target
Can Teach Topics: P38 centric fighting only, no GVs, no Jabo
Teaching Method: An exchange of films to review, TA, and 1v1s
Can Teach Skill Level(s): Intermediate to Advanced
note- I will only teach students serious about learning the P38 over a minimum of 3 sessions. You must have a joystick, fly with stall limiter off, and be at least as mature as I am. A throttle, pedals, and a microphone are a plus but not necessary.
Other Good Examples who did not fill out the form, but offered their respected by the community views
2bighorn
humble
Now - The Bad Examples of People Offering their services and who are fivorously exaggerating about their capabilities to help Teach:
Bad Example #1
Call Sign: Adonai
BBS Handle: Adonai
General Location/Times Available: Florida, Tampa 1pm - 5pm EST
Email: adonai @ jagdgeschwader7.com
Preferred Contact Method: aim - misconduc or email
And then with some more specific information:
Online Flight Sim Experience: 11 years
Preferred Aircraft: Me109k4
General Style: Furballer
Can Teach Topics: Angles, BnZ, Energy, GV, Level Bombing, Jabo, 1v1, 1v2
Teaching Method: TA and Main arena (wingman)
Can Teach Skill Level(s): Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced
^ claims 11 years online flight sim experience, claims can teach intermediate & Advanced, yet in reality is looked at as average , middle of the ladder
Bad Example #2
Call Sign: McWatt
BBS Handle: Yossarian
General Location/Times Available: London, UK (timings will vary A LOT - sometimes almost all day, other times rarely ever)
Email: see PMs, please
Preferred Contact Method: PM and e-mail if possible
And then with some more specific information:
Online Flight Sim Experience: Microsoft FS2000, then FS2004 for a few years, then FSX for a week or two (computer not good enough for it), and now Aces High for maybe a year
Preferred Aircraft: B-25H, Spitfires, T-bolts
General Style: Do whatever I can (within reason) to get a kill or two. Sometimes I get a few kills a night, other times none.
Can Teach Topics: GV, Level Bombing, Jabo, B-25ing, take-offs and landings
Teaching Method: TA, E-mail, MA sorties. And what Dichotomy said, being patient etc.
Can Teach Skill Level(s): Beginner
not really a bad offering or claim, but not much background in a multiplayer online WWII combat flight Sim....he is being more truthful than most others though
Bad Example #3
Call-sign: Banshee7
BBS Handle: DickBong
General Location/Times Available: CST usally midday or later in the evening, mostly late night
E-mail: ahbanshee7 at yahoo . com
Preferred Contact Method: BBS Private message
Online Flight Sim Experience: AH since March 2007
Preferred Aircraft: P-38 lightning (can fly most all planes to some extent)
General Style: TnB with a mix of E fighting
Can Teach Topics: 1v1 fighting, Jaboing, P-38 tips
Teaching Method: Training Arena with final test being DA
Can Teach Skill Level(s): Beginner to Intermediate. I dont like dealing with complete clueless n00bs and, some say im modest, my skill level isn't good enough for "advanced" sticks
does not want to help noobs , only been flying lil over a year, and have seen him complain of being ejected from the Training Arena on several occassions from being uncooperative with the Trainers and being disruptive.
I read on this forum awhile ago that the Trainers prefer people to have a minimal 3 years in game, to have a good grasp of the knowledge of all aspects of the game, and to have good reputation with the community.
As Steve said this is a good idea but it does have some flaws which were very apparent to show up in less than 30 replys posted to this thread.
IF anything Vudak, Karaya, 2bighorn, would be considered for whatever Murdr & TC mentioned that the Trainers & HTC have in the plans for the upcoming Combat Tour. for the rest of it, I would just use this as 2bighorn stated, an yellow pages of sorts to find other good quality people who are willing to offer quality help.
the original "Mighty01"
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Now thats a comprehensive 'ouch' lololololololololololol :lol
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^ claims 11 years online flight sim experience, claims can teach intermediate & Advanced, yet in reality is looked at as average , middle of the ladder
the original "Mighty01"
Good post but I think you made a mistake on your evaluation of Adonia. I have not flown with him as a wingman or am really friends with him but have in fact followed in his path of destruction plenty being Rook. I know he can kill in most any plane but more importantly have seen him in the TA on more than one occasion helping noobs. I even asked him a few questions myself that he was able to answer in detail for me and benefited from that advice. He shows a strong interest in sharing what he knows.
I'd also like to point out that he has made plenty of posts in the Help and Training area taking time to post many films for people to watch. I would consider him an advanced player and a patient teacher from my one experience but you would need at least a few months in game and a strong basic knowledge of tactical maneuvers to understand what he is talking about.... Plus sometimes he sounds like he has to much chew in his mouth at times so you'll have to pay extra attention.
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I'm still waiting to hear if the Trainers are going to be involved in this, could one of them chime in?
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I'm still waiting to hear if the Trainers are going to be involved in this, could one of them chime in?
From the CO of the AH2TC :
As TC indicated, HTC and the Trainers have been communicating for awhile about the direction of future plans for training. I think we're ok in that regard.
Something that could really help in the way of disseminating information about BFM, game mechanics, and aircraft, is getting more knowledgable contributors involved in AHWiki (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page). I basically stopped flying for awhile to make time for contributing in the pre-launch setup. We just don't have the extra time as a group to take advantage of its capibilities. Actually, there is even potential to provide the kind of player information that was asked for via the ahwiki user pages.
In complete agreement with assesment of Bad Example #3 100%
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I was curious if the AHTC was going to get involved in Vudak's plan, that's all, Fuzeman.
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It cant be a bad thing if someone offers their free time to help improve and keep addicted another player.
Of course you need the right people and that is the hard part.
I'll help any British player out but i do that already unofficially. They just need to ask and send me loads of cash. :D
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Good intentions, but not the best idea IMO
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I agree that there are a good number of guys here that think a bit to highly of themselves. To quote a movie, "A man has got to know his limitation!" some of these people, while meaning good, can lead noobs either down the wrong path by teaching bad habits, or by teaching so poorly that the noob gets more frustrated and quits.
I think the training should be left to the trainers. Should the pace of new players pick up, I'm sure they already have a player or two in mind to add to their ranks as addition to the training staff.
If some are sought out by the noobs, then by all means help a guy out, or if your smart enough to know your limitations, lead them to a better source. Some have stated that the wiki is tough to figure out. I don't know, as I'm not much of an expert in anything to really be of help so I havn't looked, but I'm sure if you wrote up something on BFM, or ACMs and send it off to Murdr he could appreciate it. While adding to his work load for the wiki, I'm sure it easier for him to edit and post then its is to create, edit and post.
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Murdr already did and he's the boss
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I think the training should be left to the trainers.
If some are sought out by the noobs, then by all means help a guy out
No offense, but don't these statements contradict?
...
During my time in AH, I've received a TON of help and support from many, many people... Honestly, it's far too long to list. The trainers were amongst this group and I thank them. Even so, it was a ratio of 1 to 10.
But, during my time in AH, I've also run into a number of guys who were, ehm... "Colorful" in their declining to help... Now, I never let that get to me... But I wonder how many have?
Look around the Main Arenas... Pay attention to what people say on 200 about the DA... When I see/read some things I really have to wonder if some guys just had a bad experience(s)...
I really don't see the harm in having a yellow page/referral service where people can figure out who at least isn't going to belittle them when they ask for help... But of course opinions will vary.
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I really don't see the harm in having a yellow page/referral service where people can figure out who at least isn't going to belittle them when they ask for help... But of course opinions will vary.
Exactly.
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Anyone that has the desire, knowledge, and ability to offer help and training is an asset to the community. Endorsing who has all of those qualities invites complications.
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Anyone that has the desire, knowledge, and ability to offer help and training is an asset to the community. Endorsing who has all of those qualities invites complications.
Well said. This should end the discussion.
I put my name in, not looking for endorsement but rather so people would know that I'm willing to help when I can and in the areas in which I'm capable of helping. I have not claimed to be anything other than a noob to beginner level helper. I have (and will continue to) offer the basic help like takeoff/landing techniques, basic flight (level, rolls, loops, very basic BFM/ACM, etc.) I do not try to teach anything past my comfort level; if I don't know something I say so and offer suggestions as to where to find the answers.
For those that know me, they know I'm honest in stating my capabilities and show nothing but patience and respect to my fellow fliers. (Ok, you can stop laughing at me now, I'll shut up :D).
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I know what my skill levals are, and now that I have to gloat about myself just to get people to agree with me, here it is.
I won Friday KOTH, with pretty much every senario that comes to hand: Furball, pickers, HOers, gangers (I was a wabbit) 1v1
I usually pick in the MA, but I do get into furballs at least once a day, and I always seeem to land kills, unless there is a huge disadvantage on my part, such as 20v1. I can handle 3v1 but it gets harder past that. I usually fly zekes in the furballs, but I usually fly the F4U1-D, which is a great plane, or a F4U4, which is another great plane. I also fly the 109K-4 for picking and roping inexperience people, even sometimes experoenced people. I am also learning how to use the 30mm or the "tater" as I like to call it.
I know how to reverse a con on my 6 withing maybe a turn or two and have the advantage.
I know how to reverse a HOing con inside 1 turn
I know how to reverse a picking con
I know how to pick and maintain all my E and keep the same alt that I started with.
I know how to TnB with almost any aircraft in the game, except the KI's, but I like the F4U's the most
That will sum up most of what I do. I have not fought Max or Murdr, but I have fought TC in KOTH and we are about even, I might be a little better. If you still don't agree with me, PM me for the DA, I always like the DA, work on my skill a bit.
<S>
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I know what my skill levals are, and now that I have to gloat about myself just to get people to agree with me, here it is.
I won Friday KOTH, with pretty much every senario that comes to hand: Furball, pickers, HOers, gangers (I was a wabbit) 1v1
I usually pick in the MA, but I do get into furballs at least once a day, and I always seeem to land kills, unless there is a huge disadvantage on my part, such as 20v1. I can handle 3v1 but it gets harder past that. I usually fly zekes in the furballs, but I usually fly the F4U1-D, which is a great plane, or a F4U4, which is another great plane. I also fly the 109K-4 for picking and roping inexperience people, even sometimes experoenced people. I am also learning how to use the 30mm or the "tater" as I like to call it.
I know how to reverse a con on my 6 withing maybe a turn or two and have the advantage.
I know how to reverse a HOing con inside 1 turn
I know how to reverse a picking con
I know how to pick and maintain all my E and keep the same alt that I started with.
I know how to TnB with almost any aircraft in the game, except the KI's, but I like the F4U's the most
That will sum up most of what I do. I have not fought Max or Murdr, but I have fought TC in KOTH and we are about even, I might be a little better. If you still don't agree with me, PM me for the DA, I always like the DA, work on my skill a bit.
<S>
You might need a new horn. As much as you toot it... you could be wearing it out.
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I know what my skill levals are, and now that I have to gloat about myself just to get people to agree with me, here it is.
I won Friday KOTH, with pretty much every senario that comes to hand: Furball, pickers, HOers, gangers (I was a wabbit) 1v1
I usually pick in the MA, but I do get into furballs at least once a day, and I always seeem to land kills, unless there is a huge disadvantage on my part, such as 20v1. I can handle 3v1 but it gets harder past that. I usually fly zekes in the furballs, but I usually fly the F4U1-D, which is a great plane, or a F4U4, which is another great plane. I also fly the 109K-4 for picking and roping inexperience people, even sometimes experoenced people. I am also learning how to use the 30mm or the "tater" as I like to call it.
I know how to reverse a con on my 6 withing maybe a turn or two and have the advantage.
I know how to reverse a HOing con inside 1 turn
I know how to reverse a picking con
I know how to pick and maintain all my E and keep the same alt that I started with.
I know how to TnB with almost any aircraft in the game, except the KI's, but I like the F4U's the most
I also can't type very good English.
That will sum up most of what I do. I have not fought Max or Murdr, but I have fought TC in KOTH and we are about even, I might be a little better. If you still don't agree with me, PM me for the DA, I always like the DA, work on my skill a bit.
<S>
;)
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I was curious if the AHTC was going to get involved in Vudak's plan, that's all, Fuzeman.
No problem, just restating what they said if it was missed. I'd be interested in some 38 edjumication for what it's worth.
I know the first thing I have to learn is 'dont type to much in enemy territory' as you found out yesterday :)
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And the thread skirts closer towards the cliff ;)
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Vudka:
Well intentioned and good idea,but wouldn't just offering to help new players and the like accomplish the same thing???? Hang around the TA for more than a few minutes and there's always someone with questions.
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I know what my skill levals are, and now that I have to gloat about myself just to get people to agree with me, here it is.
I won Friday KOTH, with pretty much every senario that comes to hand: Furball, pickers, HOers, gangers (I was a wabbit) 1v1
you are the elite
I usually pick in the MA,
yep, that is the same thing you do in KOTH also, you skirt the rules as much as you possibly can flying near fights and always at alt until most are dead and you are one of the last 2 or 3 left using your teamspeak so you cannot get caught on ingame vox and why is it you see more jokers jokers flying in ktoh these days need that help. no big surprise here that you finally was able to pull off a win without getting caught cheating
but I do get into furballs at least once a day, and I always seeem to land kills, unless there is a huge disadvantage on my part, such as 20v1.
you mean u can handle 3 vs 1 if you have 2 squaddies helping you, and you dominate for sure when you got the 20 to 1 advantage
I can handle 3v1 but it gets harder past that. I usually fly zekes in the furballs, but I usually fly the F4U1-D, which is a great plane, or a F4U4, which is another great plane.
this is so funny reading, it is not worth replying to, you need Vudak to teach you how to fly the F4U or Balsy or SirLoin or TC or AKDogg or Widewing. Then you might be able to get out of the zekes and spitunes and learn how to really fly an F4U and fly it in a E Fighting way and Furballing with it.
I also fly the 109K-4 for picking and roping inexperience people, even sometimes experoenced people. I am also learning how to use the 30mm or the "tater" as I like to call it.
I know how to reverse a con on my 6 withing maybe a turn or two and have the advantage.
I know how to reverse a HOing con inside 1 turn
I know how to reverse a picking con
I know how to pick and maintain all my E and keep the same alt that I started with.
I know how to TnB with almost any aircraft in the game, except the KI's, but I like the F4U's the most.
LOL, I could know how to do all of these also if I just got done reading the same material you just read ( he has a copy of In Pursuit sitting on his toilet, he should be reading Shaw's )
That will sum up most of what I do. I have not fought Max or Murdr, but I have fought TC in KOTH and we are about even, I might be a little better. If you still don't agree with me, PM me for the DA, I always like the DA, work on my skill a bit.
<S>
are you asking me to PM you to set up a DA meeting with you if I do not agree with you? if you are better than Murdr or Max or TC or 2bighorn or AKDogg, then I do not need to DA you, and I will change my name for you must truly be the almighty one. Although I find it hard to believe even 1/8th of your claims except that yes you probally do know how to do all those "I know how" by reading some fictitious book and having wet dreams about the days you wish you could be as good as you say you are
go duel Murdr, go Duel Vudak, go Duel TC......if you can beat each of them then I might give you the time of day to show you what you don't know. although you claim you know it all and can train advanced energy Fighting Tactics........
don't forget to open your parchute on your way back down from your y blue yonder dreamin :noid
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I now declare this thread as officially derailed.
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that is the same thing you do in KOTH also, you skirt the rules as much as you possibly can flying near fights and always at alt until most are dead and you are one of the last 2 or 3 left using your teamspeak so you cannot get caught on ingame vox and why is it you see more jokers jokers flying in ktoh these days need that help. no big surprise here that you finally was able to pull off a win without getting caught cheating
so you are saying that, because my squaddies are, that they are going to help me win KOTH? do you even know how to spell KOTH? I send in every film that I won, and there was no such cheating that was involved. I love people who make aligations that cannot back them up.
you mean u can handle 3 vs 1 if you have 2 squaddies helping you, and you dominate for sure when you got the 20 to 1 advantagethis is so funny reading, it is not worth replying to, you need Vudak to teach you how to fly the F4U or Balsy or SirLoin or TC or AKDogg or Widewing. Then you might be able to get out of the zekes and spitunes and learn how to really fly an F4U and fly it in a E Fighting way and Furballing with it
wow, Sirloin is my squaddie and he can tell you that I can beat him almost everytime we DA, he even tells me tat I'm one of the best sticks in the game. and I never have squaddies helping me when its 3v1. next aligation
LOL, I could know how to do all of these also if I just got done reading the same material you just read ( he has a copy of In Pursuit sitting on his toilet, he should be reading Shaw's )
LOL now you are going to accuse me of reading somthing that I have never read, how could you say somthing like that, unless you were sitting next to me in the toilet?
are you asking me to PM you to set up a DA meeting with you if I do not agree with you? if you are better than Murdr or Max or TC or 2bighorn or AKDogg, then I do not need to DA you, and I will change my name for you must truly be the almighty one. Although I find it hard to believe even 1/8th of your claims except that yes you probally do know how to do all those "I know how" by reading some fictitious book and having wet dreams about the days you wish you could be as good as you say you are
I would pwn you any day
go duel Murdr, go Duel Vudak, go Duel TC......if you can beat each of them then I might give you the time of day to show you what you don't know. although you claim you know it all and can train advanced energy Fighting Tactics........
again I have fought TC and he has be me, I havebeat him
don't forget to open your parchute on your way back down from your y blue yonder dreamin :noid
see, you have no idea what you are talking about, next time, come in with a little more evidence before you open your mouth. oh and you cain't say that because I am in a squad that has a few squeekers in the squad, dosen't mean that i'm a noob that has no skill. :aok
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No offense, but don't these statements contradict?
...
Not at all, I believe that training should be left to the trainers. On the other hand should someone ask me how to fly a 38, I'm going to help and give them a couple tips I know work. I will end my "lesson" with "but you should look up Murdr, Del, or Ack-Ack to really learn the 38. I know my limits, I know what I can teach....and it ain't much :D
Training should be left to the trainers, but I like to help out where I can, and I think as a community we should work to helping each other.
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I know what my skill levals are, and now that I have to gloat about myself just to get people to agree with me, here it is.
I won Friday KOTH, with pretty much every senario that comes to hand: Furball, pickers, HOers, gangers (I was a wabbit) 1v1
I usually pick in the MA, but I do get into furballs at least once a day, and I always seeem to land kills, unless there is a huge disadvantage on my part, such as 20v1. I can handle 3v1 but it gets harder past that. I usually fly zekes in the furballs, but I usually fly the F4U1-D, which is a great plane, or a F4U4, which is another great plane. I also fly the 109K-4 for picking and roping inexperience people, even sometimes experoenced people. I am also learning how to use the 30mm or the "tater" as I like to call it.
I know how to reverse a con on my 6 withing maybe a turn or two and have the advantage.
I know how to reverse a HOing con inside 1 turn
I know how to reverse a picking con
I know how to pick and maintain all my E and keep the same alt that I started with.
I know how to TnB with almost any aircraft in the game, except the KI's, but I like the F4U's the most
That will sum up most of what I do. I have not fought Max or Murdr, but I have fought TC in KOTH and we are about even, I might be a little better. If you still don't agree with me, PM me for the DA, I always like the DA, work on my skill a bit.
<S>
:rofl
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Bosco... No offense... But why does it matter so much to you? :huh
Also, I wonder what else besides dogfighting you're teaching guys...
Fugitive - I agree on the disclaimer and advice 100%
Lusche - You must be psychic :D
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Training administration and organization should be left to the trainers,
Fixed....At least I think I'm correctly translating Fugi to English.
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Bosco... No offense... But why does it matter so much to you? :huh
Also, I wonder what else besides dogfighting you're teaching guys...
Fugitive - I agree on the disclaimer and advice 100%
Lusche - You must be psychic :D
I just felt offended by that post that he made.
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Vudka:
Well intentioned and good idea,but wouldn't just offering to help new players and the like accomplish the same thing???? Hang around the TA for more than a few minutes and there's always someone with questions.
My thoughts exactly...
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I needed this thread, after a long painful day at work ................... no sleep last night hardly............from an infected tooth that has had the side of my face swollen up the size of a grapefruit....it hurts to be laughing so hard :rofl but they tell me laughter is the best medicine, right?
heya Bosco00 I will go to the DA and see what you got to offer in the 1 vs 1 category.........all for fun though, not for some glory seeking "I pwn you any day" challenge.... I could give 2 chits if you can beat me or I can beat you..........what I do care about is "Good Proper Atitude" & "Good Proper Etiquette".......can you teach these?
maybe Mighty01's intentions was to bait your persona and see if the real side showed itself?
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Bosco... No offense... But why does it matter so much to you? :huh
Also, I wonder what else besides dogfighting you're teaching guys...
Fugitive - I agree on the disclaimer and advice 100%
Lusche - You must be psychic :D
Vudak
It's a great idea, and really only a "formalization" of what actually occurs. The underlying problem/issue would be in the validation process. As of now its a buyer beware "potluck". Anytime I'm in the TA there are a number of informal "trainers"...some exceptional and others of more questionable merit. None however are "validated"...I completed understand the issues Murdr faces here. It is a no win situation for him.
Without getting into the pissing wars let me try and highlight a very real issue speaking as a former official trainer.
It's fine to be a skilled player in a good plane, and even a skilled player in a "pet ride". You can learn to maximize the relative effectiveness of a specific plane remarkably well. Now lets go beyond that and look at how you take fundemental BFM and string them togeather into more complex ACM that are not only not plane dependent but to a large degree not situationally dependent and can with a reasonable degree of certainty achieve a specified result repeatedly against an above average main arena pilot.
Now once you can actually "manufacture" such ACM blocks you need to be able to not only articulate and teach the theory/concepts from scratch but you need to be able to get inside the other guys head and address the areas where his/her understanding breaks down. There are alot of very good sticks that are still very plane/situation dependent, in effect they are good pilots who understand and exploit both situational advantage and plane strength....in that context they are fairly formidable. Does that translate to being a good trainer...I'm not sure.
I see no need to get into the adonia/bosco debate. My own thoughts are that both are clearly good sticks with great potential over time. As far as temperment and suitability for training...IMO adonia is much closer then bosco as of now. I think both should be applauded for their willingness to share, learn and teach.
I am far from an "uber" stick but i'm good in almost anything. While I'm not a killing machine in anything I'll give a good fight in anything with a gun in the front. So what does a trainer really do? IMO a trainers primary role is to give you the knowledge & confidence such that you can encounter any "average main arena pilot" in any plane with a pilots gunsight in an inferior position and win a one on one a majority of the time. I was able, and still can teach that to anybody with reasonable basic aircraft handling in 90 days (one or two 30 min sessions a week).
Thats the standard (IMO) that every formal trainer here meets (again just 1 guys opinion). This is a film clip I put up way back thats on our squad site. IMO (and again it is just my opinion) it highlights everything and anything about being a "trainer capable" pilot. If you can duplicate this, understand it and teach anyone else to do it repeatedly with success then your at a point where the basic knowledge is there.
http://www.71sqn.co.uk/Films/P40vN1ki.ahf (http://www.71sqn.co.uk/Films/P40vN1ki.ahf)
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I
heya Bosco00 I will go to the DA and see what you got to offer in the 1 vs 1 category.........all for fun though, not for some glory seeking "I pwn you any day" challenge.... I could give 2 chits if you can beat me or I can beat you..........what I do care about is "Good Proper Atitude" & "Good Proper Etiquette".......can you teach these?
Frankly, I have never heard of the guy although I realize he may be flying under a different cpid. You are truly blessed though Bosco123, to be able to beat some really good sticks after playing for only a year or so. A real prodigy. What is your cpid? No doubt, with your extreme gift, you've waxed me big time in the MA and I'll recognize your name.
Also, can you post some films of winning 3v1's? A great learning tool this would be.
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maybe Mighty01's intentions was to bait your persona and see if the real side showed itself?
agreed
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Can we just kill this now and put away the rulers?
Vudak had, what I thought, was a really good idea and one I would have been happy to embrace. Unfortunately, due to logistics, the idea can not, at this time, be utilized to its full potential.
If you really WANT to help go into the TA and teach a noob the very very basics and leave the advanced training to the trainer.
Pretty simple really. If you got some help when you first moused into a cartoon airplane pay it forward, and let your flying, driving, character, or all of the above, speak for itself.
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Some of you took this great idea and turned it into a pissing contest.
Bravo, bravo... that's just what AH needs, channel 200 to invade here. :(
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My god what is with this crowd :O, Vudak has a great idea, it's not like he is talking about training people who are going to have to live or die by what they are taught. You don't have to be a full blown trainer to teach someone the basics, and if someone is ready for some advanced instruction they will be at the point where they could call BS on someone who didn't know enough to teach at that level.
Vudak I would love a little instruction from you in the Hogs, that is what I fly, I have been playing for a little over a year and would like to increase my ability, if you are willing let me know. :salute
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I think the official AH trainers are to be praised for their efforts, but Vudak's idea is legit as well. I find that any 1-1 with feedback is valuable (wish I could find more of it in this game). If your partner advises "bad habits", I think that will become evident when you try them out, and you will eventually discard them. If not, it's just a game, not life-and-death.
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Vudak, you deserve a heartfelt :salute for your desire to help others learn the game, and for attempting to set up a system that could have helped accomplish that.
Don't feel like you're to blame for the direction this thread took, and don't let it sour your interest in helping others. This obviously didn't work out as you'd intended, but that's ok. I for one still appreciate the effort. It's nice to see in contrast to many of the other threads and posts we've all seen...
MtnMan
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mtnman I totally agree
Vudak is a goodstrong guy in my book.
:salute Vudak
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This obviously didn't work out as you'd intended, but that's ok.
MtnMan
Who's to say? Some people willing to help noobies posted their names.. maybe a noob will come across this thread and pick up a couple of names to get help from. *shrug*
I'd love to help but I don't know that I'm qualified to teach ACM. I am hesitant to declare a skill level for myself. I've always felt that's for others to judge. I take ride alongs and get smilar comments about how I always seem to be in the right position and know what's going on around me. I don't remember anyone ever telling me I was stellar at ACM. lol
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I'd love to help but I don't know that I'm qualified to teach ACM. I am hesitant to declare a skill level for myself. I've always felt that's for others to judge. I take ride alongs and get smilar comments about how I always seem to be in the right position and know what's going on around me. I don't remember anyone ever telling me I was stellar at ACM. lol
I feel the same way about myself Steve. I'm happy to help those who come my way, but I know there are plenty that are beyond my level and ability to help. I just do what I can...
As for Vudaks thread not working out as planned, I was specifically referring to the issues near the end, not the list of folks offering to help. I may not have been clear enough.
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I'd edit my first post if I could, to remove my name. After reading all the crap being flung here, I really don't care to associate myself with a number of you uber-dinks. Your egos are incredible and it's evident to me that all some of you care about is self-gratification. I could care less what any of you think of me, good or bad. I have a high enough self-esteem to take criticism the same as praise, and do not need your validation for my existence.
All that said, I will still show up in the TA when I need to just fly around a bit and perhaps try a new ride or practice some techniques. I will still offer my opinions and what basic knowledge I feel comfortable and qualified to give. It doesn't take much to help someone enough to have the little light bulb turn on over their head and shed some bit of frustration they had with the game.
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I don't flim a lot in the MA's, I'll take a look to see what I have steve.
<S>
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I don't flim a lot in the MA's, I'll take a look to see what I have steve.
<S>
Dude you stated earlier that you sent your videos in to prove that you didn't need help from your squadies, I am sure those videos will suffice. :aok
Now I am also sure that you can stop tuting your horn and take this argument somewhere else, we are all convince that you are instant death in your cartoon plane even though you don't post with your in game handle so your claims can be check. You are our insperation for self improvement. :pray
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<S> Vudak I appreciate u getting ppl to post that are willing to help out. Now I have a list of ppl I can go to before I go to the trainers. The reason I don't want to go to the trainers first is b/c I fell I need to learn the basics of acm, all I do now is fly by the seat of my pants which has gotten me to a decent lvl now it is time to step up with help which I will be able to get from your list. Again <S>
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Frankly, I have never heard of the guy although I realize he may be flying under a different cpid.
F4uJunky
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F4uJunky
No, I think it's Bosc0123
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F4uJunky
Heheh. Actually I ran into a guy named bosc0123 yesterday.
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Heheh. Actually I ran into a guy named bosc0123 yesterday.
And?
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F4uJunky
Ah, I dueled him (and his friend TonyJoey) just recently. He's pretty good, but still bellow of what I consider 'advanced'.
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Now I have a list of ppl I can go to before I go to the trainers. The reason I don't want to go to the trainers first is b/c I fell I need to learn the basics of acm,
why would you think you need to learn the basics of ACM or even the basics of BFM before you met up with any Trainer? That is why the Trainers are here..to teach these things....................not that other people in this thread are capable as well teaching these things
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Ah, I dueled him (and his friend TonyJoey) just recently. He's pretty good, but still bellow of what I consider 'advanced'.
Wrong guy unless it's a shade. His cpid is bosc0123
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Ah, I dueled him (and his friend TonyJoey) just recently. He's pretty good, but still bellow of what I consider 'advanced'.
What's your name now? And what happened to Barbossa?
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And?
I didn't fight him,we were on the same team. You can look up his numbers if you like.
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No, I think it's Bosc0123
Bosc0123 did not win a Friday KOTH ... but F4uJunky did
Round by round results:
1 ) F4uJunky in a Bf 109G-14
2 ) RikiTiki in a F4U-1
3 ) F4uJunky in a Spitfire Mk.IX (Wabbit)
4 ) TonyJoey in a Boston 3
5 ) BearKats in a P-40E
6 ) TonyJoey in a D3A1 (Wabbit)
7 ) RikiTiki in a La-5FN (Wabbit)
8 ) Yenny in a Spitfire Mk. IX
9 ) Bosc00 in a Fw 190D-9
10) F4uJunky wins in a C.202
There is a Bosc0123 and F4Junky in Jokers Jokers listed on the squad page.
Looking for F4Junky for this tour ... ERROR: Player F4Junky did not fly in Late War Tour 102
F4uJunky started playing in Tour 101 with just 4 1/2 hours for that Tour, but for Tour 102 he already has 74 hours.
So F4Junky disappeared about the same time F4uJunky appeared.
Soooo ... it just might be he has 2 CPIDs.
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And what happened to Barbossa?
He's in Davy Jones’s Locker.
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Bosc0123 did not win a Friday KOTH ... but F4uJunky did
Round by round results:
1 ) F4uJunky in a Bf 109G-14
2 ) RikiTiki in a F4U-1
3 ) F4uJunky in a Spitfire Mk.IX (Wabbit)
4 ) TonyJoey in a Boston 3
5 ) BearKats in a P-40E
6 ) TonyJoey in a D3A1 (Wabbit)
7 ) RikiTiki in a La-5FN (Wabbit)
8 ) Yenny in a Spitfire Mk. IX
9 ) Bosc00 in a Fw 190D-9
10) F4uJunky wins in a C.202
There is a Bosc0123 and F4Junky in Jokers Jokers listed on the squad page.
Looking for F4Junky for this tour ... ERROR: Player F4Junky did not fly in Late War Tour 102
F4uJunky started playing in Tour 101 with just 4 1/2 hours for that Tour, but for Tour 102 he already has 74 hours.
So F4Junky disappeared about the same time F4uJunky appeared.
Soooo ... it just might be he has 2 CPIDs.
I think F4uJunky is CMustard.
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Yup he's Cmustard now...
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Roflmao If Bosco toots his own horn in here any more its gonna crap out and he will need to by a new one. As far as I'm concerned Cmustard/F4Ujunky TonyJoey and Bosco all fly the same timid BnZ style that they call "E" fighting. Each one of them are dog meat on the deck in an actual turn fight.
On a different note, winning KOTH means jack snot lol all it shows for some one of Mustards or Boscos skill level is that they know how to skirt the edges of the fight and manipulate the rules. The logs from the last Friday KOTH aren't posted yet but Im willing to bet I had more kills then both Bosco and Cmustard had because I was actually fighting and hunting the cocky squeakers down instead of trying to win, I even missed I think 2 or 3 rounds of the event. I do feel bad for Fuze though, Friday KOTH has turned into a baby sitting job instead of a hosting job.
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Bosco123 is telling us before it is posted officially in the KOTH forums that he is the winner of last Fridays KOTH. that has to be the only KOTH I can think of him winning.
Is TonyJoey a Bosco123 anklehumper? I heard through the Grapevine that TonyJoey was possibly a up and coming good stick that might make some of the older vet flyers proud. I hope he does not go down the wrong road here.
Bosco123, it looks like TC offered you a chance to let him take you in to the Dueling Arena and give you your "Check Ride" to see if you could teach anything. That is what I get by reading it.
You say you will "PAWN" me , I would be intrigued to see if you can stand behind your claims of teaching energy Fighting and your claim of "PAWNING" me.
If you beat me, I will change my username to "KickedByBosco" if I beat you you have to change your name to "Mighty01's Number1 anklehumper" you go the cahauna's Bro?
I fyou teach me anything, I promise to come here and tell all without shame. If I teach you some things, you promise to do the same.
oh look, Husky01 has showed up, the one who taught Bosco123 how to do KOTH
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oh look, Husky01 has showed up, the one who taught Bosco123 how to do KOTH
Wow? Did you even read my post?
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why would you think you need to learn the basics of ACM or even the basics of BFM before you met up with any Trainer? That is why the Trainers are here..to teach these things....................not that other people in this thread are capable as well teaching these things
Because I never wanted to waste the trainer's time by having to teach me the basics. I fell that time could be better used. <S> all trainers
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I think F4uJunky is CMustard.
That's a possibility too ... CMustard's PNG coincides with the creation of F4uJunky.
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Callsign: batfinkv
BBS Handle: mechanic
General Location/Times: random, often GMT night time.
Email: N/A
Preferred contact meathod: Private message here or in game, please dont be shy, just shout me any time. Either i have time to help or i dont.
Online Flight Sim Experience: flying AH since 2003.
Prefferd Aircraft: N/A
General Style: shoot them down before they shoot me
Can Teach Topics: Everything fighter
Skill Level: Begginer to Expert
Preferred Teaching Meathod: whatever suits you, TA/DA is best for hands on approach.
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Hey, back on track, thanks Battfink. :aok
Hopefully them other guys will take there bull else where.
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For the record I'm always willing to help someone out although I'm probably not much of a teacher. Been flying since '96 and I don't lose too many 1 on 1's regardless of plane match-up but I'm not one of the elite.
About all I'll offer is that we can go to the DA, you can record and if I beat you you can watch the film to see how it happened.
PM me in the MA as I've tried scheduling these things before and I never seem to remember or something comes up or...
I do like to 1 on 1 in the DA just for fun though so maybe this would be a way to get me there more often. In fact, if any of you elite guys want to DA with me I'd appreciate that as well. Maybe I'd pick up a few things.
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Dude you stated earlier that you sent your videos in to prove that you didn't need help from your squadies, I am sure those videos will suffice. :aok
No from KOTH, I don't send my MA films to fuzeman :aok
<S>
BK, your going to tell me somthing that I do, when that all you do in KOTH, I had to try and beat you picking me in the Yak9-U that we had. Course I got lucky and you ran out of feul.
Sorry guys, I am nothing like TonyJoey or Cmustard, I like Tony, but me and him are just about equal, and I thought that someone said somthing that those two are "Advanced".
BldEagle, that one is from last month, if you read the topic it says "June KOTH results" I won July KOTH.
Like I said I didn't want to Gloat at all, and I knew that this would turn up in my face just like the it is now. Too late to change it now, shoulda never posted it. I just wanted to help people, Like I always have done.
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Bighorn domin and batfink taught me how to fly nuff said
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BldEagle, that one is from last month, if you read the topic it says "June KOTH results" I won July KOTH.
You must have me mixed up with someone else. I never said anything about KOTH.
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Roflmao If Bosco toots his own horn in here any more its gonna crap out and he will need to by a new one. As far as I'm concerned Cmustard/F4Ujunky TonyJoey and Bosco all fly the same timid BnZ style that they call "E" fighting. Each one of them are dog meat on the deck in an actual turn fight.
On a different note, winning KOTH means jack snot lol all it shows for some one of Mustards or Boscos skill level is that they know how to skirt the edges of the fight and manipulate the rules. The logs from the last Friday KOTH aren't posted yet but Im willing to bet I had more kills then both Bosco and Cmustard had because I was actually fighting and hunting the cocky squeakers down instead of trying to win, I even missed I think 2 or 3 rounds of the event. I do feel bad for Fuze though, Friday KOTH has turned into a baby sitting job instead of a hosting job.
lol You've fought me twice..in KOTH and you already assume how I fly, and you know what assumpions make out of you...and me for that matter. :lol :salute Would love to have a 1v1 with ya as I think it would be a fun fight.
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Bosco123 is telling us before it is posted officially in the KOTH forums that he is the winner of last Fridays KOTH. that has to be the only KOTH I can think of him winning.
Is TonyJoey a Bosco123 anklehumper? I heard through the Grapevine that TonyJoey was possibly a up and coming good stick that might make some of the older vet flyers proud. I hope he does not go down the wrong road here.
Bosco123, it looks like TC offered you a chance to let him take you in to the Dueling Arena and give you your "Check Ride" to see if you could teach anything. That is what I get by reading it.
You say you will "PAWN" me , I would be intrigued to see if you can stand behind your claims of teaching energy Fighting and your claim of "PAWNING" me.
If you beat me, I will change my username to "KickedByBosco" if I beat you you have to change your name to "Mighty01's Number1 anklehumper" you go the cahauna's Bro?
I fyou teach me anything, I promise to come here and tell all without shame. If I teach you some things, you promise to do the same.
oh look, Husky01 has showed up, the one who taught Bosco123 how to do KOTH
Again someone assuming something just because I like flying with a certain person. I even wear a badge saying "I am humble" :D ;). Please don't stereotype me because I befriend a certain person and like to wing up together. :salute
And a Huge :salute to batfink and TC as I have had some of the longest and most fun fights ever against them. I don't consider myself advanced as I have been mopped all over the floor by some truly "advanced" sticks, but I almost always will give them a good fight, and improve from every fight. :salute
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Anyway...
Call Sign: TonyJoey
BBS Handle: TonyJoey
General Location/Times Available: Late Nights Central Time, with adjustable times
Email: N/A except to students
Preferred Contact Method: BBS PM
Online Flight Sim Experience: 1 1/2 years AH, 1/2 year of other sims.
Preferred Aircraft: P47 (all variants, but mainly D40), and most other American Aircraft
General Style: Mix of TnB and E fighting depending on situation
Can Teach Topics: 1v1, merges, P47 and P38 tips
Teaching Method: TA, with final test DA
Can Teach Skill Level(s): Beginner-Intermediate
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salute back at you joey always enjoy our fights. Oh and i think you can definitely put that as 'begginer to advanced'. Intemediate for me would be able to do a clean rolling scissors and learning to handle the planes below stall speed. Advanced is being able to link what you have learned into one fluid fighting style that defines you. Expert is learning other people's styles to beef up your own.
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As far as I'm concerned Cmustard/F4Ujunky TonyJoey and Bosco all fly the same timid BnZ style that they call "E" fighting. Each one of them are dog meat on the deck in an actual turn fight.
Maybe, but Tonyjoey is much different that cmouseturd. I am not real sure of his flying skills but Tonyjoey rode along with me on a flight and I found the kid to be pleasant and enjoyable to be around. He tagged along as a wing for a couple of flights after that and I experienced more of the same.
Husky, I'd fly with 10 TonyJoeys before I'd fly w/ one cmouseturd, even if mouseturd was the kingpoop of AHII.
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Husky, I'd fly with 10 TonyJoeys before I'd fly w/ one cmouseturd, even if mouseturd was the kingpoop of AHII.
Completely agree 100% with you.
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And a Huge :salute to batfink and TC as I have had some of the longest and most fun fights ever against them. I don't consider myself advanced as I have been mopped all over the floor by some truly "advanced" sticks, but I almost always will give them a good fight, and improve from every fight. :salute
Always a pleasure to cartoon plane fight against you TonyJoey.....~SALUTE~...........I was not sure the first time we ran into each other in koth....I was assuming it was a new shade account, :lol then we fought and I was very satisfied and happy to have found another player who fights for the fight and not for the name in lights....... I think fuzeman told me or maybe AKDogg that you was a youngster ( in your teens perhaps ) if this is so....then the future looks a little bit brighter for Aces High ........
heya batfink, I don't mean to hijack this thread, but someone asked for that film to be hosted again in the following thread, sir.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,211375.50.html
if you don't mind ....if you get it hosted, Thank You in advance, bat
~SALUTE~
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I'm 99% sure I uploaded July FriKOTH log as I have top killers on my paper to list when results are posted.
Bosc0123 did win July FriKOTH and BearKats did have the most kills of anyone in that KOTH with 11.
Although I don't frequent the TA as much as usual, when I'm there and not pointing out the rules to the clueless, I'm most willing to help anyone who asks. By no means am I elite or way above average but I have my days and with the Trainer experience I find helping people a habit I can't seem to break. Mostly its easy stuff, such as telling them certain commands and where to find the printable list of them, showing a manual takeoff or a landing or two.
I remember this idea coming up way back when Schatzi was still flying and just before she was invited to be an official Trainer. Just how to make them semiofficial was tough regarding what powers they should have etc. Believe me without full Trainer privileges, training at times can be tough and frustrating in there when you come across a band of malcontents who try to break every rule in the book and cause problems. Just pointing out the rules to some folk make you a BIG target for their abuse.
I'm sure Murdr shudders at times when he sees another email from me :)
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As TC indicated, HTC and the Trainers have been communicating for awhile about the direction of future plans for training. I think we're ok in that regard.
Something that could really help in the way of disseminating information about BFM, game mechanics, and aircraft, is getting more knowledgeable contributors involved in AHWiki (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page). I basically stopped flying for awhile to make time for contributing in the pre-launch setup. We just don't have the extra time as a group to take advantage of its capibilities. Actually, there is even potential to provide the kind of player information that was asked for via the ahwiki user pages.
I was trainer for a very long time both formally and informally. I'm not sure I'd have the patience for it anymore in my old age. But, I do enjoy doing writeups, especially for the intermediate to advanced level. Several of my "guides" are floating around out there. If there's a need for one on a particular topic I'm probably going to be up for it...I've always given blanket permission to HTC to use my stuff however they please as my contribution to the community.
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I have too much self-respect to get into pissing matches. As Steve said a few pages ago, this was a good idea and it was ruined by some egotistical "I'm better than some of you because I won KOTH or what else allows some folks to sleep at night.) Bosco123, before you post or reply, I'm not just talking about yourself, you're just one of the examples. KOTH doesn't mean a damn thing in this game.
I've always said that this Community fractured around the Summer of 2005. I'm correct and it is a damn shame that some cannot even enter an intellectual discussion on equal terms. One always has "to be the sierra hotel stick". It is so cookie cutter lately. The ONLY time I'll get sarcastic if someone "wants the B-29, another duplicate ride added, help us lower ENY that we wanted in the first place, but now all we do is post threads whining about it", type crap you see polluting the BBS.
I'm blunt, to the point and can get so precise in a discussion, that some cannot handle it. I have no horn to toot because I despise hypocrisy and/or someone who is morally bankrupt.
I could name "sticks" that would be above Advanced above 97% of those who play this game and some who posted in this thread, wouldn't even come close to them. Even relative "unknowns" like Vati66, Duedel (who is still the best I've ever seen in a 109 of any type), Ripsnort, MiG, and many others could hand everyone their arse before they even realized what happened. The only one I've seen on in the last year is MiG. The others stay locked in my memory as some of the best fights I've ever had in over 6 years of playing this game.
For those wondering about F4uJunky, he IS CMustard and should never have even come up in this thread.
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KOTH doesn't mean a damn thing in this game.
Of the same opinion myself, think years ago (pre 2003) KOTH was something but it seems to of fallen to the wayside. About as meaningful as having a low score and your name in the news page.
<S>...-Gixer
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Guys & Gals
KOTH serves it's purpose, and it is meaningful....the KOTH organizers are striving to keep making it better for everyone. As with any other event that the Volunter staff bring forward for the AH Community........ they all have their ups and downs.......no event is ever going to run perfect everytime without any hicups....
KOTH builds good practice habits of
Fuel & Energy Management, Gunnery, Situational Awareness, ACM, among other things. If you don't like KOTH or you do not participate in KOTH on a regular basis, then you seriously have no right to SLAM it or throw it under the rug persay........
There has always been great fights to be had in KOTH and it helps the newer flyers learn more valuable flying habits, that translate into better opponents to fight against in other arenas....
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Guys & Gals
KOTH serves it's purpose, and it is meaningful....the KOTH organizers are striving to keep making it better for everyone. As with any other event that the Volunter staff bring forward for the AH Community........ they all have their ups and downs.......no event is ever going to run perfect everytime without any hicups....
KOTH builds good practice habits of
Fuel & Energy Management, Gunnery, Situational Awareness, ACM, among other things. If you don't like KOTH or you do not participate in KOTH on a regular basis, then you seriously have no right to SLAM it or throw it under the rug persay........
There has always been great fights to be had in KOTH and it helps the newer flyers learn more valuable flying habits, that translate into better opponents to fight against in other arenas....
TC, nothing against KOTH, or any other event that is put on by the volunteers who work so hard to ADD to an already great game, I think what K might be trying to say is in the old days the players of this game were more honorable. When you entered KOTH it was to see who was "King of The Hill", not see see who could bend the rules to there advantage. It was pilot against pilot in like planes to see who came out on top, as it should be, no "gaming the game" crap.
The same holds true in the MA's. The old days were full of people having fun. Land grabbers attacking and taking bases with full blown defenses, furballs erupting and going on for hours because the win the war types didn't bust them up, they just moved on to another area to win the war. Honor amongst enemies.
These days its too much about getting your name in lights, being at the top of the score board no matter how you got there, gaming the game, just no honor in it any more. Maybe its the influx of the kids with there "win at all costs" attitudes. To many of them spend half their time on the computer looking for cheat codes in the games they play, always looking for the quickest way to the top, instead of investing the time to actually get get good at the game. In the old days, the top of the leader board WAS the leaders. They didn't "work" their scores to get to the top, it just happened because the score reflected how they really played, NOT those that spend hours milking their scores to look good.
I know who the good sticks are, and I don't have to look at the scoreboard to see it. I know who the best in the buffs are, and GVs, but you don't always see them at the top because they aren't out there padding their scores. Their out there playing the game, those are the guys and gals that I respect.
Ya Bosco won KOTH this month, but I think if you put him, Mtman, vudac, and TC in a free for all in the hogs, he'd be hard pressed to win 1 out of 10. KOTH is still a great event, and for those who like that style of event I'm sure its a blast, you guys run well set up events, I have to give you that. But I don't think being the KOTH champ means the same as it use to.
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TC, nothing against KOTH, or any other event that is put on by the volunteers who work so hard to ADD to an already great game, I think what K might be trying to say is in the old days the players of this game were more honorable. When you entered KOTH it was to see who was "King of The Hill", not see see who could bend the rules to there advantage. It was pilot against pilot in like planes to see who came out on top, as it should be, no "gaming the game" crap.
The same holds true in the MA's. The old days were full of people having fun. Land grabbers attacking and taking bases with full blown defenses, furballs erupting and going on for hours because the win the war types didn't bust them up, they just moved on to another area to win the war. Honor amongst enemies.
These days its too much about getting your name in lights, being at the top of the score board no matter how you got there, gaming the game, just no honor in it any more. Maybe its the influx of the kids with there "win at all costs" attitudes. To many of them spend half their time on the computer looking for cheat codes in the games they play, always looking for the quickest way to the top, instead of investing the time to actually get get good at the game. In the old days, the top of the leader board WAS the leaders. They didn't "work" their scores to get to the top, it just happened because the score reflected how they really played, NOT those that spend hours milking their scores to look good.
I know who the good sticks are, and I don't have to look at the scoreboard to see it. I know who the best in the buffs are, and GVs, but you don't always see them at the top because they aren't out there padding their scores. Their out there playing the game, those are the guys and gals that I respect.
Ya Bosco won KOTH this month, but I think if you put him, Mtman, vudac, and TC in a free for all in the hogs, he'd be hard pressed to win 1 out of 10. KOTH is still a great event, and for those who like that style of event I'm sure its a blast, you guys run well set up events, I have to give you that. But I don't think being the KOTH champ means the same as it use to.
fluff'n A right.
As for the bold text above? It echoes MANY players sentiments.
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But I don't think being the KOTH champ means the same as it use to.
I would agree to a point...you make very valid points , so did Karaya........
the old days, it was all about the fight, yes we allwant to win.but more importantly we all wanted honest straight up give it all you got GOOD fights....... today some are more for I got to win at all cost type atitude, and stretch the rules as far as they can to skirt , cut throttle flying clear across the map to get to the last 2 or 3 people fighting.....just to arrive as one of the last 2 guys fighting dies and they come in with major alt & E to someone who is drained completely of both.......
if everyone would just go back to the atitude of"Wanting that palm sweating profusely type fights" and forget about the name in lights, then yes it would be even better....
but there is still hope, and there is alot of us who still show up looking for those fights, and those fights are still there in KOTH, to be had......
things never remain the same , and if you do not at least accept the change( wrong word ) acknowledge that things change....then you get left behind..we all have experienced this, wether it be oldtimers wanting/missing the days of AW DOS, or WB(1), or even AH(original 99/2000/2001 era )
The KOTH CM's know things have dropped a bit, but they make every effort to improve it, to try and bring back guys like wetrat, BigMax, Wldthing, Stang, etc...( very long list of old timers who show up hardly anymore )
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I would agree to a point...you make very valid points , so did Karaya........
the old days, it was all about the fight, yes we allwant to win.but more importantly we all wanted honest straight up give it all you got GOOD fights....... today some are more for I got to win at all cost type atitude, and stretch the rules as far as they can to skirt , cut throttle flying clear across the map to get to the last 2 or 3 people fighting.....just to arrive as one of the last 2 guys fighting dies and they come in with major alt & E to someone who is drained completely of both.......
if everyone would just go back to the atitude of"Wanting that palm sweating profusely type fights" and forget about the name in lights, then yes it would be even better....
but there is still hope, and there is alot of us who still show up looking for those fights, and those fights are still there in KOTH, to be had......
things never remain the same , and if you do not at least accept the change( wrong word ) acknowledge that things change....then you get left behind..we all have experienced this, wether it be oldtimers wanting/missing the days of AW DOS, or WB(1), or even AH(original 99/2000/2001 era )
The KOTH CM's know things have dropped a bit, but they make every effort to improve it, to try and bring back guys like wetrat, BigMax, Wldthing, Stang, etc...( very long list of old timers who show up hardly anymore )
TequilaChaser (and all 'old-timers'), I may not be the best judge of such things, because I'm only 16, but it seems that it's very easy to fall into the 'trap' of nostalgia. I've done that in another game that I play, which has a completely different style, and whilst I accept that the new graphics are better than the old ones of that game, I still miss the way it used to be. In addition to this, next year at school there are a lot of new people joining my year group. I know that this means we're all going to have to begin behaving far more sensibly and maturely than we do now, and I and many others will miss all the pissing-around etc, however we're still looking at the positive side of things.
So basically, why don't you just try to 'embrace' Aces High the way it is, rather than attempt to change it.
I for one love it right now :D If someone HOs me, I either attempt to lob a 75mm through their windscreen, or I get killed. Either way it's fun :D :D :aok
<S>
Yossarian
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So basically, why don't you just try to 'embrace' Aces High the way it is, rather than attempt to change it.
Did you even read and comprehend what I wrote?
I for one love it right now :D If someone HOs me, I either attempt to lob a 75mm through their windscreen, or I get killed. Either way it's fun :D :D :aok
that last part speaks volumes of todays players verses players that want the fight more than some cheap 1/2 attempted Joust....
nothing more to say....except hopefully you will learn to want more than to lob a 75 mm into someones windscreen ( HO shot ) and get fun out of it.....
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So basically, why don't you just try to 'embrace' Aces High the way it is, rather than attempt to change it.
I for one love it right now :D If someone HOs me, I either attempt to lob a 75mm through their windscreen, or I get killed. Either way it's fun :D :D :aok
<S>
Yossarian
Not all change is good.
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Did you even read and comprehend what I wrote?
that last part speaks volumes of todays players verses players that want the fight more than some cheap 1/2 attempted Joust....
nothing more to say....except hopefully you will learn to want more than to lob a 75 mm into someones windscreen ( HO shot ) and get fun out of it.....
Yes I did read it, however I'll reread it now. Ok, done. Basically, what I was trying to say is that I understand why and what you're missing (I think), however I think the nostalgia is being taken too far and too seriously. Why? Because rather than accepting that changes happen (as you said), a vocal minority of players appear to be attempting to change the way the game works (or at least want to change the way it works) in order to accommodate the way it used to be.
However, I don't think, and I hope that the game won't be changed in such a way. You can still find good fights if you look hard enough. And if you're so determined to find them, I'd expect that you'd also be willing to take the time to look for them. I'm certain that if you arrange to meet at a certain corner of a map, or if the 'old-timers' designate a certain corner of a certain arena to having their 'good fights', you will get them. However, us n00bs are still happy to do what is necessary to win.
RE my HOing comment: I sort of meant that as a [bad] joke, but not entirely. It all depends on what sort of mood, and plane I'm in. AFAIK, B-25s aren't really built for barrel rolls, which sort of limits my options when confronted with a player determined to HO. Please note that I will not initiate a HO, however I will accept one if I feel like it. In a fighter though, I'm far happier with a tail chase, however if I feel my opponent is going to HO me, and I don't feel up to avoiding it, I'll do my best to get a guns solution on him as well. Also, I far prefer Immelmans and loops to TnB.
Anyway, back on topic: Steve, I agree that not all change is good, but I don't think this change is bad. Sure, it may be bad from your perspective, and from that of many other 'old-timers', but I still feel that this particular change is sort of neutral. Although it is annoying for some people, for increasing numbers of people this game is just great fun, and I mean really really great fun. It isn't a 'community' for many of these people as it is for you.
I hope this makes at least some sense, and at least partially conveys my points.
<S>
Yossarian
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Yes I did read it, however I'll reread it now. Ok, done. Basically, what I was trying to say is that I understand why and what you're missing (I think), however I think the nostalgia is being taken too far and too seriously. Why? Because rather than accepting that changes happen (as you said), a vocal minority of players appear to be attempting to change the way the game works (or at least want to change the way it works) in order to accommodate the way it used to be.
However, I don't think, and I hope that the game won't be changed in such a way. You can still find good fights if you look hard enough. And if you're so determined to find them, I'd expect that you'd also be willing to take the time to look for them. I'm certain that if you arrange to meet at a certain corner of a map, or if the 'old-timers' designate a certain corner of a certain arena to having their 'good fights', you will get them. However, us n00bs are still happy to do what is necessary to win.
RE my HOing comment: I sort of meant that as a [bad] joke, but not entirely. It all depends on what sort of mood, and plane I'm in. AFAIK, B-25s aren't really built for barrel rolls, which sort of limits my options when confronted with a player determined to HO. Please note that I will not initiate a HO, however I will accept one if I feel like it. In a fighter though, I'm far happier with a tail chase, however if I feel my opponent is going to HO me, and I don't feel up to avoiding it, I'll do my best to get a guns solution on him as well. Also, I far prefer Immelmans and loops to TnB.
Anyway, back on topic: Steve, I agree that not all change is good, but I don't think this change is bad. Sure, it may be bad from your perspective, and from that of many other 'old-timers', but I still feel that this particular change is sort of neutral. Although it is annoying for some people, for increasing numbers of people this game is just great fun, and I mean really really great fun. It isn't a 'community' for many of these people as it is for you.
I hope this makes at least some sense, and at least partially conveys my points.
<S>
Yossarian
The reason us "old timers" complain about the changes is pretty simple. You having never experienced it might have a hard time understanding, so lets try this...
Your in your 25 crusing along, and spot another 25 low to your 10 oclock heading in the opposite direction. Which do you think would be more fun, you dive in hard, going for the HO and get the kill because you got off your "pumpkin" before he did, OR you start a slow climb to the left keeping an eye on him as you slip onto his 6 and dive in, he breaks at the last minute and the fight is on. 5 minutes later your low on the deck, one engine smoking and dead, fuel leaking from your left main, and your left aileron is missing, but the other guy is a smoking heap as you rtb.
In the "old days" 98% of the time people choose option 2, today 80% of the time they choose option 1. Thats why we miss the old days. Fights for bases lasted 45 minutes to an hour, Tank battles were rolling fights. Would you rather get blown up at a spawn by a camper, or spawn and have to find the fight in the countryside? Change is good, and inevitable, but what the game play has changed to isn't better, just a very pale version of what the game play use to be.
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The reason us "old timers" complain about the changes is pretty simple. You having never experienced it might have a hard time understanding, so lets try this...
Your in your 25 crusing along, and spot another 25 low to your 10 oclock heading in the opposite direction. Which do you think would be more fun, you dive in hard, going for the HO and get the kill because you got off your "pumpkin" before he did, OR you start a slow climb to the left keeping an eye on him as you slip onto his 6 and dive in, he breaks at the last minute and the fight is on. 5 minutes later your low on the deck, one engine smoking and dead, fuel leaking from your left main, and your left aileron is missing, but the other guy is a smoking heap as you rtb.
In the "old days" 98% of the time people choose option 2, today 80% of the time they choose option 1. Thats why we miss the old days. Fights for bases lasted 45 minutes to an hour, Tank battles were rolling fights. Would you rather get blown up at a spawn by a camper, or spawn and have to find the fight in the countryside? Change is good, and inevitable, but what the game play has changed to isn't better, just a very pale version of what the game play use to be.
Yep.
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So basically, why don't you just try to 'embrace' Aces High the way it is, rather than attempt to change it.
I for one love it right now
Yossarian
I can explain this...
Anyone who started playing 3 years ago or less only really knows the incarnation of the game we have right now, they have no real basis for comparison. It hasn't changed very much at all since then. But, actually that's extremely unusual for this genre. The game is in constant flux, the whole genre has been since the beginning. Those of us that have been playing 4-20 Years can objectively evaluate those constant changes retrospectively. Some are good changes, some are not. Some are programmatic, some are player based. Some are beyond our control, some are not.
So, especially the changes that are within our control and player based, we (the community) have some direct influence over. We have the potential to transform the bad changes and reinforce the good. Part of the way we do that is right here on these forums. We transmit our community culture to you in the hopes of endowing you with the same sense of personal responsibility for the integrity of the game that we have. If we can successfully do that, your behavior will change over time to reflect that same deep respect for the game and the community. In time you too will likewise communicate that sense of personal responsibility to the next generation and so on.
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Steve, I agree that not all change is good, but I don't think this change is bad.
Yossarian
How the heck would you know? You weren't around for the days of dogfighting. You have absolutely NOTHING to base your opinion on. Nothing.
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The reason us "old timers" complain about the changes is pretty simple. You having never experienced it might have a hard time understanding, so lets try this...
Your in your 25 crusing along, and spot another 25 low to your 10 oclock heading in the opposite direction. Which do you think would be more fun, you dive in hard, going for the HO and get the kill because you got off your "pumpkin" before he did, OR you start a slow climb to the left keeping an eye on him as you slip onto his 6 and dive in, he breaks at the last minute and the fight is on. 5 minutes later your low on the deck, one engine smoking and dead, fuel leaking from your left main, and your left aileron is missing, but the other guy is a smoking heap as you rtb.
In the "old days" 98% of the time people choose option 2, today 80% of the time they choose option 1. Thats why we miss the old days. Fights for bases lasted 45 minutes to an hour, Tank battles were rolling fights. Would you rather get blown up at a spawn by a camper, or spawn and have to find the fight in the countryside? Change is good, and inevitable, but what the game play has changed to isn't better, just a very pale version of what the game play use to be.
I find this post interesting. I have been on Aces High for about a year, but I am by far one of the older players in age. When I started playing AH I read all the website material (many times) and I went to the TA and practiced what I read. I then found out about the forums and read them on a daily basis.
I see a little two face action going on, because I hear about all this honor, but I have been HO-ed and Spawn Camped by the biggest names in the game. I don't mean the top guns by score, I mean the ones who are really the better sticks. So here on the forums I hear all about this honor code, but tomorrow one of these big named guys will see my lowly Spit 9 and them in their 51 or 38 and the HO will be on. Of course they will call it a deflection shot, but if I was to do it I would be blasted on 200 or PMed for HOing.
I don't complain on 200, and I don't whine. I just up another plane and go back for more. I find the game fun and I try to keep that perspective.
There is no doubt that the game has changed over the years. That is life in general. If I had my way we will still be living in the 1960's, but that's not going to happen, so I try to go with the flow as I enter my Golden Years.
Just some thoughts on the subject, not wishing to offend anyone.
Fred
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How the heck would you know? You weren't around for the days of dogfighting. You have absolutely NOTHING to base your opinion on. Nothing.
with respect steve, if a player spends a good amount of time in a decent crowd furballing the DA dohnut then they can get a hint of what a decent dogfight shuld be like. There is a fair bit of fresh talent that does not often hit the MA, a trip to the DA can be humbling but you wont find a better test of your moves than a good 1 on 1 with a stranger or friend. That said i like to think 5 years ago i was a little part of the old style game and youre right it is much altered.
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I find this post interesting. I have been on Aces High for about a year, but I am by far one of the older players in age. When I started playing AH I read all the website material (many times) and I went to the TA and practiced what I read. I then found out about the forums and read them on a daily basis.
I see a little two face action going on, because I hear about all this honor, but I have been HO-ed and Spawn Camped by the biggest names in the game. I don't mean the top guns by score, I mean the ones who are really the better sticks. So here on the forums I hear all about this honor code, but tomorrow one of these big named guys will see my lowly Spit 9 and them in their 51 or 38 and the HO will be on. Of course they will call it a deflection shot, but if I was to do it I would be blasted on 200 or PMed for HOing.
I don't complain on 200, and I don't whine. I just up another plane and go back for more. I find the game fun and I try to keep that perspective.
There is no doubt that the game has changed over the years. That is life in general. If I had my way we will still be living in the 1960's, but that's not going to happen, so I try to go with the flow as I enter my Golden Years.
Just some thoughts on the subject, not wishing to offend anyone.
Fred
Interesting perspective Fred, thank you for your insights. What you are witnessing is really just human nature. The self-myth a person has in their own mind is always, without exception, different from how they appear to others and behave. When the gap between a person's self-perception and how they actually behave reaches a certain degree if divergence. We call that self-delusion in Psychology. At the other end, there's people who are actually rather self-aware so they do not diverge much from how others see them or how they behave. We call this actualization in Psychology. I say this because all human beings are somewhere between these extremes on the spectrum of self-awareness.
The Game, the Forums, the articles and most importantly your own personal objective experiences combine to form what you know of the game and the community. From that perspective you discover people you've met on the forums act in a contrary way in-game. It is just a manifestation of divergence. Now if that same person came on the forums and spoke of the issue you experienced with their divergent behavior you'd probably wonder if you were talking to the same person. People communicate idealistic thoughts with a different part of their brain in the Freudian sense than they would use to pilot a combat aircraft. Depending on how diverent or self-delusional he is. The part of the brain with all the idealism and morality was taking a nap when he HO'd you.
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I find this post interesting. I have been on Aces High for about a year, but I am by far one of the older players in age. When I started playing AH I read all the website material (many times) and I went to the TA and practiced what I read. I then found out about the forums and read them on a daily basis.
I see a little two face action going on, because I hear about all this honor, but I have been HO-ed and Spawn Camped by the biggest names in the game. I don't mean the top guns by score, I mean the ones who are really the better sticks. So here on the forums I hear all about this honor code, but tomorrow one of these big named guys will see my lowly Spit 9 and them in their 51 or 38 and the HO will be on. Of course they will call it a deflection shot, but if I was to do it I would be blasted on 200 or PMed for HOing.
I don't complain on 200, and I don't whine. I just up another plane and go back for more. I find the game fun and I try to keep that perspective.
There is no doubt that the game has changed over the years. That is life in general. If I had my way we will still be living in the 1960's, but that's not going to happen, so I try to go with the flow as I enter my Golden Years.
Just some thoughts on the subject, not wishing to offend anyone.
Fred
First lets clarify "old timer" here. Old timer in this thread is someone whos been playing flight sim type games for over 5 years. In the old days "K" was a pimp faced kid ! :D
Though I think the number of good sticks who do HO, or spawn camp is low, I think its just the evolution of the game that has forced them into it. I very rarely fire in the first pass, unless its a nik la or spit and they turn toward me deliberately looking for the HO. But thats the way I fly. At times its very frustrating, but I still look fight that fight.
I'm not posting this stuff "whining" about how it was better in the old days, I'm posting that it was better as an example to hopefully spread this idea back into the community. Those that have never seen this would be surprized at how much more fun they could be having.
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The part of the brain with all the idealism and morality was taking a nap when he HO'd you.
Or it was a true high deflection shot that any "vet" will take, once the fight is "on" if the situation warrants it. In the LW, unless you are fighting a guy in a very sparsely populated area, the more time it takes you to eliminate a threat, only makes you and easier target as time passes.
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Zazen13, I like your last sentence so much, I decided to make it my SIG line. With two modifications of course. :salute
Fred
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Zazen13, I like your last sentence so much, I decided to make it my SIG line. With two modifications of course. :salute
Fred
Haha! Happy to be of service. :salute
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Now - The Bad Examples of People Offering their services and who are fivorously exaggerating about their capabilities to help Teach:
Bad Example #1
^ claims 11 years online flight sim experience, claims can teach intermediate & Advanced, yet in reality is looked at as average , middle of the ladder
the original "Mighty01"
[/quote]
And how do you know my flying experience? Can you please back up this claim as I can.
First squad: 1st G.U.N.S "Richthofens (www.1stguns.de) flying Janes Fighters Anthology 1997 - 2001
Switched to Falcon 4.0 during 99-2004, took year off due to military service been flying aces high since 2005
So yes 10 years Actively flying online sims with a squadron in multiplayer/online mode.
Please use better judgement rather then make "claims" otherwise, You could of simply asked where my proof was.
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I tried to prove a point on the fact that I did win KOTH, woo! woo! who gives a dam. I was just trying to prove more than what you guys think of me, degrading my flying ability, thinking that I'm some squeeker noob that has no skill. You all think that I'm a liar, and couldn't teach Beginner skill. You all think that I'm stuck up on KOTH, when I only Mentioned it as one of my few things that I have to say. You people can't see past that, and I'm tired of it. For all you know, I could be one of the best sticks in the game, but I know that I'm not.
I know I can't fight people like Levi or Dogg, just because they are the "Expert" level. They can teach things WAY past what I can do, but I know that I know some things that can help anybody, weather their "Beginners" or they are "Advanced/ Experts" ( even though they know just about everything.)
YOU guys blew this WAY out of proportion. Its not my fault that you guys can't see past KOTH. Again I only MENTIONED KOTH as one of my perceived skill that I have attained of this fun year. we have a whole bunch of people that can walk the walk. Yes, we do have a few people that can walk and talk.
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toot, toot!!!
:rofl
Yeah, the whole world is out to get you. :noid
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First lets clarify "old timer" here. Old timer in this thread is someone whos been playing flight sim type games for over 5 years. In the old days "K" was a pimp faced kid ! :D
Though I think the number of good sticks who do HO, or spawn camp is low, I think its just the evolution of the game that has forced them into it. I very rarely fire in the first pass, unless its a nik la or spit and they turn toward me deliberately looking for the HO. But thats the way I fly. At times its very frustrating, but I still look fight that fight.
I'm not posting this stuff "whining" about how it was better in the old days, I'm posting that it was better as an example to hopefully spread this idea back into the community. Those that have never seen this would be surprized at how much more fun they could be having.
speaking of hoes i will sometimes be looking for a deflection front end shot and the guy comes around faster than i thought he wouldm, sometimes i avoid but then sometimes ill also take the shot anyway.
i like ending fights fast so yes i will take any shot i can get especialy a front 1/4 shot sometimes it turns into a ho before i realize it. but i do not fly around at top speed hoing anthing that gets in front of me most of the planes i fly cant stand up to a decent ho shot.
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:rofl
Yeah, the whole world is out to get you. :noid
Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. but its terrible to see some of these "good hornorable sticks" make nast comments like this.
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:rofl
Yeah, the whole world is out to get you. :noid
Gee... I thought they were out to get me!!! whew.... dodged another 1. :noid
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Gee... I thought they were out to get me!!! whew.... dodged another 1. :noid
nope I'm still out to get you :D
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I could be one of the best sticks in the game, but I know that I'm not.
I don't know you bosco and I haven't run into you but once this tour, according to the kill stats. The stats say you were in a k4, me in my pony. I don't remember the encounter to be honest.
Anyway, you claimed to be able to teach advanced and that caused me to raise an eyebrow, so to speak. I've looked at your stat sheet and while score doesn't mean everything, it does mean some things. Many of the best furballers aren't ranked particularly high but you can take snippets of their stats to see their success. Let's take Levi for instance: you'll never see him with a huge K/D really, but he'll have a pretty good hit % and a really good K/T. His K/S will be at least 2.0 or better.
Then I take a look at your numbers from this tour and they are much different. your K/D of 1.33 is ... OK but not what many would consider advanced.
Your K/S is .86 again not what many would consider advanced. Your K/T of 8.21 really isn't bad but not spectacular. Your hit% of 5.35 is pretty low.
I really don't mean to offend you but taken as a whole, these numbers don't paint a picture of an advanced pilot. I'm not saying you aren't one, I am saying it seems unlikely. I hope you can see why people might be skeptical.
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I don't know you bosco and I haven't run into you but once this tour, according to the kill stats. The stats say you were in a k4, me in my pony. I don't remember the encounter to be honest.
Anyway, you claimed to be able to teach advanced and that caused me to raise an eyebrow, so to speak. I've looked at your stat sheet and while score doesn't mean everything, it does mean some things. Many of the best furballers aren't ranked particularly high but you can take snippets of their stats to see their success. Let's take Levi for instance: you'll never see him with a huge K/D really, but he'll have a pretty good hit % and a really good K/T. His K/S will be at least 2.0 or better.
Then I take a look at your numbers from this tour and they are much different. your K/D of 1.33 is ... OK but not what many would consider advanced.
Your K/S is .86 again not what many would consider advanced. Your K/T of 8.21 really isn't bad but not spectacular. Your hit% of 5.35 is pretty low.
I really don't mean to offend you but taken as a whole, these numbers don't paint a picture of an advanced pilot. I'm not saying you aren't one, I am saying it seems unlikely. I hope you can see why people might be skeptical.
I feel your efforts are in vain.
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I'll just say this - those that need help most frequently usually don't even know this board exists. If you really want to help, go to the TA and find the guy who takes off with the sweeping left turn and tell him about pulling the stick back and right rudder. Then, show him where auto-takeoff is.
Tell him how to change his radio from Help to Country. Make sure he knows how to pick a different plane and explain a little bit about load-out, fuel burn rates, etc. Make sure he knows where the BBS is, the trainer's site, the Wiki. Explain that the trainers are volunteers and there isn't always one in the TA but that there is usually someone that can help with at least the basics.
Most importantly, make sure he knows that this game is a heck of a lot of fun but it takes some time to learn. Spending just a few minutes doing these simple things can make the difference between a new member of the community and someone who takes a look around and then leaves.
Regards,
Hammer
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I don't know you bosco and I haven't run into you but once this tour, according to the kill stats. The stats say you were in a k4, me in my pony. I don't remember the encounter to be honest.
Anyway, you claimed to be able to teach advanced and that caused me to raise an eyebrow, so to speak. I've looked at your stat sheet and while score doesn't mean everything, it does mean some things. Many of the best furballers aren't ranked particularly high but you can take snippets of their stats to see their success. Let's take Levi for instance: you'll never see him with a huge K/D really, but he'll have a pretty good hit % and a really good K/T. His K/S will be at least 2.0 or better.
Then I take a look at your numbers from this tour and they are much different. your K/D of 1.33 is ... OK but not what many would consider advanced.
Your K/S is .86 again not what many would consider advanced. Your K/T of 8.21 really isn't bad but not spectacular. Your hit% of 5.35 is pretty low.
I really don't mean to offend you but taken as a whole, these numbers don't paint a picture of an advanced pilot. I'm not saying you aren't one, I am saying it seems unlikely. I hope you can see why people might be skeptical.
Truley you worded it the nicest way that I could see and I feel that deserves some respect.
I know my K/D and my hit% is low, I've never been a "Super Shot" and above that, I've been flying planes that I just don't fly all the time. Take the K4 for example, I've only been flying that for about a week, tring to understand how to get a shot with a tater. 262, I cain't hit fish out of a barrel in that thing, and its killing my score. course you saw my score today, and I just pushed it up a little, but still not all to bad.
I never worry about my score, I'm not a milk runner, and I'm not totally great with snapshots, but I do get my few in here and there. my problem is, I lead too much and a lot of times it throws me off, just the way I do things.
Again I give you a lot of respect, l a lot of people on this topic have been snippy about "My skill" <S> Steve
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I'm glad no one looks at my stats...i'd be embarrassed
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Truley you worded it the nicest way that I could see and I feel that deserves some respect.
I know my K/D and my hit% is low, I've never been a "Super Shot" and above that, I've been flying planes that I just don't fly all the time. Take the K4 for example, I've only been flying that for about a week, tring to understand how to get a shot with a tater. 262, I cain't hit fish out of a barrel in that thing, and its killing my score. course you saw my score today, and I just pushed it up a little, but still not all to bad.
I never worry about my score, I'm not a milk runner, and I'm not totally great with snapshots, but I do get my few in here and there. my problem is, I lead too much and a lot of times it throws me off, just the way I do things.
Again I give you a lot of respect, l a lot of people on this topic have been snippy about "My skill" <S> Steve
Let me comment on this. There's many ways to pork K/D, K/T and K/S. Strafe some M3s in fighter mode. Launch out to counter a possible NOE and find just one enemy, or worse, he changes course or bails. Auger your plane to rush to a hot spot. The list can be endless. I gauge pilots by how they do 1v1 against me. All scores can be manipulated and mean diddly squat to me.
My regards,
Widewing
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I acually did get to fight you last night Widewing, only for a few minutes though. You were playing with new sounds, so I don't know how good you were last night, probably not good at all. The one person that opend my eye was Texture, I took up a F4U1-D and began fighting him. To my suprise, no matter what I did, I could not get on his 6, no matter what I did, he had me the whole time.
I plan to go again tonight to work with him some more.
<S>
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I'm not sure that is entirely accurate WW...
I think MA and DA are actually different skills that don't overlap perfectly.
I mean, anyone worth his salt in the MA must be able to show a little in the DA. But IMO the chess-game 1v1 aspect of AHII is very different than the multi-bandit madness of the MA. I am a little above average at the former, below average at the latter anytime the fight gets much beyond 3v3, simply because I am not a multi-tasker and have trouble fighting one opponent intelligently while splitting my attention in multiple directions.
For the record, I'm not trying to be a snob here and look down on someone who is good in furballs in the MA primarily because they have great SA, can look around and instantly tell who doesn't have great SA, and has great gunnery on any fleeting gun solution, has a good grasp of teamwork, etc. On the contrary, these are skills in and of themselves and some of them are arguably intellectually more challenging than ACM, which afterall is ultimately mostly managing your energy and figuring out what spot to fly your plane to.
I gauge pilots by how they do 1v1 against me. All scores can be manipulated and mean diddly squat to me.
My regards,
Widewing
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Thats because texture is very good, aren't you texture. :) (Texture may also be one of the most modest guys in the game.)
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Texture is a good man but an old one at that, sheesh no idea how he still flies ;)
texture made me the noob I am today :cry
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I'm not sure that is entirely accurate WW...
I think MA and DA are actually different skills that don't overlap perfectly.
They don't overlap very much at all actually.
Success in the DA, in the ubiquitously common format of 1 vs 1 Co-Alt, Co-E, same plane/loadout, is to air combat as drawing a circle is to being an artist. I have participated in thousands of duels and filmed thousands more over the years. The single most important factor is the merge. Those who are very successful duelists have perfected a particular merge method to the fine point of a spear. They tweak it depending on the plane or the opponent, but it's almost always the same basic move. Ninety percent of duels are over in one or two turns following the merge, the percentage is higher than that if the participants have decent aim or one has a particularly weak merge move or blows it entirely. Duels almost always devolve into pure angles fighting if they last beyond a few turns. Once the angles advantage is assured the shots are generally close-in and fairly low deflection, affording time to hammer away indiscriminately with ammunition that need not be conserved.
Here's some examples that distinguish a duelling engagement from a MA flight.
There is no SA required.
There is no consideration needed for the careful balancing of the maximization of the strengths of one aircraft vs. the weaknesses of another.
There is very little consideration for E management required.
There is no need for cooperative tactics and communication.
There is no consideration required for ammunition conservation making good aim relatively unimportant as you can hose spray around and hope for lucky hits.
There is no consideration required for the adjustment of your flying to properly compensate for the state of your changing fuel-load.
There is no consideration for the exploitation of an initial energy advantage or negating an intial energy disadvantage.
Dueling is a wonderful way to master a Co-Alt/Co-E merge move and get familiar with "riding the edge" of a particular aircraft, but that's about it. That's not to say those are not valuable skills, but they represent only a minuscule fraction of the vast and varied skill-sets required in the highly variable and dynamic MA environment. So, the DA and the MA actually have very little in common. I know many who are geniuses in the DA, but are frustrated and abysmally ineffective MA flyers because the other skills the MA requires are grossly lacking. Conversely, I know people who's comprehensive diversity of skills makes them MA Mozart's, but they never completely mastered a Co-Alt/Co-E merge to razor-sharp perfection so are relatively weak duelists.
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I disagree on few points (marked in red)
There is no SA required.
SA is required. Very much so. Albeit not all SA elements are required in a duel
There is no careful balancing of the maximization of the strengths of one aircraft vs. the weaknesses of another.
You can duel in diff aircraft. Many do
There is very little consideration for E management.
It is exactly opposite.
There is no need for cooperative tactics and communication.
True only in 1vs1 duel
There is no consideration required for ammunition conservation making good aim relatively unimportant as you can spray to your heart's content and hope for lucky hits.
Spraying will kill you quickly in a well matched duel. Good aim is essential
There is no consideration required to the adjustment of your flying to compensate for the state of your fuel-load.
True
There is no consideration for the exploitation of an initial energy advantage or negating an intial energy disadvantage.
Not as often as in MA, but it does happen in a duel
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I disagree on few points (marked in red)
The post I was replying to was specifically talking about duelling 1 vs 1. Anything beyond a 1 vs 1 is what I call a "set-match", and is really not a duel in the classic sense. The more you expand from the traditional 1 vs 1 in terms of plurality of participants, variations of altitude and aircraft the more you are emulating the MA obviously. The more the 'set-match' is setup to emulate the MA the less it is a duel and therefore the more skills from the MA skill-set apply to it.
For example, if duelling in dissimilar planes (which is the exception) you can strike off the list the part about maximizing and minimizing relative strengths/weaknesses of aircraft.
I didn't say there is no consideration for E management when duelling. I said the more turns the duel goes the more it progressively devolves into angles then ultimately stall-fighting. Once you get to the point of a stall-fight all residual vestiges of E management as a consideration are gone for all practical purposes.
I fail to see how planes equipped with enough ammunition to drop 5-10 planes in the MA do not make spray and praying at every possible fleeting crossing shot opportunity a practical thing to do when duelling 1 vs 1. In the vast majority of the duels I've done or filmed, people take shots they would not ever think of wasting the ammunition on if the same fight were happening in the MA. But, since they have a practically infinite ammoload when applied against a single aircraft it's logical to hose around a fair bit on those poor crossing shots in the hopes of knocking off a control surface.
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Spraying will kill you quickly in a well matched duel. Good aim is essential
Aww hogwash. Since it's 1v1 you can hold the trigger down any time you think you might have a gun solution on your enemy. Since there will be no other combat in the flight, there's no need to conserve ammo.
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I didn't say there is no consideration for E management when duelling. I said the more turns the duel goes the more it progressively devolves into angles then ultimately stall-fighting. Once you get to the point of a stall-fight all residual vestiges of E management as a consideration are gone for all practical purposes.
I think the slower you are the more important E management becomes. This is equally valid for MA an DA. It is easy to manage E when you have loads of it. It gets trickier when you have almost none.
I fail to see how planes equipped with enough ammunition to drop 5-10 planes in the MA do not make spray and praying at every possible fleeting crossing shot opportunity a practical thing to do when duelling. In the vast majority of the duels I've done or filmed, people take shots they would not ever think of wasting the ammunition on if the same fight were happening in the MA. But, since they have a practically infinite ammoload when applied against a single aircraft it's logical to hose around a fair bit on those poor crossing shots in the hopes of knocking off a control surface.
Simply because shooting (taking extra lead to aim) will spoil your angles and if you miss, you'll most likely be shot in the next turn. From my personal experience, I take shots in MA I'd never take in a duel.
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Aww hogwash. Since it's 1v1 you can hold the trigger down any time you think you might have a gun solution on your enemy. Since there will be no other combat in the flight, there's no need to conserve ammo.
Try it
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I think the slower you are the more important E management becomes. This is equally valid for MA an DA. It is easy to manage E when you have loads of it. It gets trickier when you have almost none.
Simply because shooting (taking extra lead to aim) will spoil your angles and if you miss, you'll most likely be shot in the next turn. From my personal experience, I take shots in MA I'd never take in a duel.
I disagree with you. The less relative E you have the more important angles become as your options to use E to maneuver radically in order to create angles decrease progressively to the point where E can't be converted to angles at all and you are now stallfighting. The lower your E state the less you have to lose, relatively speaking, by sacraficing Energy for an angle even if it means eroding your E state further toward a pure stallfight where there is no excess energy to manage at all.
As far as the shooting thing goes, what you may do and what almost every other person I've ever seen duel does are apparently completely different. I've even had people comment after a duel that they specifically hosed around with their MG's to attempt to force a mistake or plink off a control surface while, in the process, dumping their excess ammunition to lighten their plane.
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I disagree with you. The less relative E you have the more important angles become as your options to use E to maneuver create angles decrease progressively to the point where E can't be converted to angles at all and you are now stallfighting. The lower your E state the less you have to lose, relatively speaking, by sacraficing Energy for an angle even if it means eroding your E state further toward a pure stallfight where there is no excess energy to manage at all.
We'll have to agree on disagreeing.
As far as the shooting thing goes, what you may do and what almost every other person I've ever seen duel does are apparently completely different. I've even had people comment after a duel that they specifically hosed around with their MG's to attempt to force a mistake or plink off a control surface while dumping the excess ammunition to lighten their plane.
Spraying is always sign of desperation, either in DA or in MA. If a guy is spraying in DA he'll do the same in MA.
Maybe some are unloading ammo in DA before merge, but I have rarely seen a decent stick spraying in a duel.
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We'll have to agree on disagreeing.
Spraying is always sign of desperation, either in DA or in MA. If a guy is spraying in DA he'll do the same in MA.
Maybe some are unloading ammo in DA before merge, but I have rarely seen a decent stick spraying in a duel.
We can agree to disagree...;)
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I think the slower you are the more important E management becomes. This is equally valid for MA an DA. It is easy to manage E when you have loads of it. It gets trickier when you have almost none.
Simply because shooting (taking extra lead to aim) will spoil your angles and if you miss, you'll most likely be shot in the next turn. From my personal experience, I take shots in MA I'd never take in a duel.
I agree with both points... Just to add a few thoughts...
Point #1 - Energy still matters very much so in an angles fight, as certain angles simply cannot be obtained with it, or without it. It's just that it's not so apparent as a typical MA fight where one party often starts with a noticeable advantage.
Successfully judging a person's energy state pre-merge is a *huge* part of dueling. Whereas you might see people just using a few basic moves, Zazen, you can bet your butt they're deliberately coming in at different speeds for the same maneuver. A good dueler needs to mix it up and be unpredictable... If they can't do that, they'll be beat the same way over and over again.
Energy goes both ways... And dispite popular thought, having a surplus is not *always* a good thing, by any means. It is at times, sure.
Point #2 - I think most guys who've spent a lot of time dueling will admit that a good portion of the times they were killed was right after they blew a shot they thought they had. Dueling's one of the best ways to learn there are some shots even more dangerous to oneself than a HO :)
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Aww hogwash. Since it's 1v1 you can hold the trigger down any time you think you might have a gun solution on your enemy. Since there will be no other combat in the flight, there's no need to conserve ammo.
Exactly...
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Exactly...
Yep, there's no need to conserve ammo, but every time you spray you're wasting time and you'll be late into the next maneuver and that's the last thing you want in a duel (or in any fight for that matter).
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Successfully judging a person's energy state pre-merge is a *huge* part of dueling. Whereas you might see people just using a few basic moves, Zazen, you can bet your butt they're deliberately coming in at different speeds for the same maneuver. A good dueler needs to mix it up and be unpredictable... If they can't do that, they'll be beat the same way over and over again.
No doubt there, Vudak. But, whether the relative pre-merge energy is potential (alt) or actual (speed) is largely semantics assuming they both adhered to the 5k hard-cap. Naturally, the merge move will be modified accordingly to compensate for the apparent degree the opponent has retained their potential E or converted it into speed. But, progressively, as a duel wears on and E is exhausted as it is converted to angles there's a point it becomes a pure stallfight, then there is no E to manage, you no longer have the E needed to create angles alone. The closer E states are the greater the importance of angles. The opposite is true, the greater the energy disparity the less important angles are as they are easily created. So, Co-Alt/Co-E fights begin biased toward angles fighting vs. E fighting intrinsically, the lower the E states the more true this becomes as options to convert energy to a positional advantage are restricted in an ever-tightening noose.
Think of this another way, this is a very typical MA example.. A less maneuverable plane can temporarily outmaneuver a more maneuverable plane if he has sufficient energy to convert to angles for a shot. The closer their relative E states the more the angles fighter will be able to counter the angles created by his opponent through energy conversion. Once their E states are identical, assuming there's very little separation, the energy fighter can no longer create an angle sufficient to outmaneuver the angles fighter, if he tries he will A) Give up shot; B) Put himself at an energy disadvantage vs. a more maneuverable plane, which is all but certain death.
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Yep, there's no need to conserve ammo, but every time you spray you're wasting time and you'll be late into the next maneuver and that's the last thing you want in a duel (or in any fight for that matter).
Ahhh, I see where you're not understanding. Why do you think shooting and maneuvering are mutually exclusive? Do you stop pulling your stick when you press the trigger?
The kind of spraying I'm talking about are fleeting crossing shots, where you are completely out-of-plane with your opponent as he crosses in front of you, it's the complete opposite of an in-plane tracking shot. This happens when you are both maneuvering aggressively, especially after a nose to nose merge. These are the kind of shots that people will take in a duel more often and with greater gusto, ammunition wise, than they typically would in the MA. They'll throw a hose up there in anticipation of the enemy crossing in front of him. When it's done it looks more like you're throwing up a stream that he runs into rather than you "hitting him" directly with a shot.
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In regards to the shooting, I think I see what you're saying, Zazen, but I have to say that it hasn't been my experience in the DA... People pretty much shoot at me when I expect them to, and if they don't, they're either being polite or have a good reason not to.
I don't run into many situations where a guy is using a firehose or just laying on throughout a turn hoping to catch me...
As far as fleeting cross shots... I might not be completely understanding you there, but I'm assuming you're talking about 90* or thereabouts deflections, split second chances... Not only will I fire each time in the MA for those shots, but often they're the only ones available to me when I'm knife fighting a better turning plane... They are the shot I am looking for. If I was able to hit them more often I'd be much more successful :)
I think you're talking about one of the things that could happen moreso than one of the things that usually does.
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I think I posted the answer to that, in reply to bighorn, while you were writing, read the most recent post above...
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But, progressively, as a duel wears on and E is exhausted as it is converted to angles there's a point it becomes a pure stallfight, then there is no E to manage, you no longer have the E needed to create angles alone. The closer E states are the greater the importance of angles.
a) to gain angles you need to maneuver
b) to maneuver you need E
c) If you ever stuck in prolonged rolling scissors you'll understand importance of managing E at or near stall speeds.
d) stall fighting is common in all arenas
Why do you think shooting and maneuvering are mutually exclusive?
They aren't. I'm just saying one leads to another.
Do you stop pulling your stick when you press the trigger?
You unload stick pressure a bit at high Gs, otherwise rounds will be spread over too large area. Takes some time as well for a solid kill burst (depends on armament).
The kind of spraying I'm talking about are fleeting crossing shots, where you are completely out of plane with your opponent as he crosses in front of you.
You don't want to pass in front of the bandit in any fight. And reverse is true, if opponent is passing in front of you, he usually dies. Either you aim or you spray. DA is no different in that regard.
These are the kind of shots that people will take in a duel more often and with greater gusto, ammunition wise, they they would in the MA. They'll throw a hose up there in anticipation of the enemy about to cross in front of him.
Instead of answering myself, I'll quote Vudak: "I think most guys who've spent a lot of time dueling will admit that a good portion of the times they were killed was right after they blew a shot they thought they had. Dueling's one of the best ways to learn there are some shots even more dangerous to oneself than a HO".
When it's done it looks more like you're throwing up a stream that he runs into than you "hitting him" with a shot.
That's what we call deflection shooting.
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No I read that one, it's just that it hasn't been my experience... I haven't run into many firehose guys in the DA. I can hear/see when they're shooting and it is generally short bursts.
Actually my latest post was in response to your last one specifically, so if I'm completely misunderstanding it, do tell :D
(I've got an hour left at work and the day is slow, I'm game for some edumacation :) )
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a
You unload stick pressure a bit at high Gs, otherwise rounds will be spread over too large area. Takes some time as well for a solid kill burst (depends on armament).
You don't want to pass in front of the bandit in any fight. And reverse is true, if opponent is passing in front of you, he usually dies. Either you aim or you spray. DA is no different in that regard.
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You release pressure on the stick when you shoot? I have never done that, if you do that you will under-lead, assuming you were at the correct lead to begin with. The only time I could see doing that would be if your are in pure lead pursuit and have to relax the stick to let the bandit "catch-up" to the deflection angle. Is that what you mean?
I have been in about 9,872,638 fights and filmed about 23,789,203 fights I wasn't directly involved in. In almost every one of those fights that were the result of a nose to nose merge there were susequent mini re-merges at an oblique angle resulting in at least one out-of-plane crossing shot opportunity prior to the fight either being decided or devolving into mostly in-plane maneuvering and tracking shots.
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As far as fleeting cross shots... I might not be completely understanding you there, but I'm assuming you're talking about 90* or thereabouts deflections, split second chances... Not only will I fire each time in the MA for those shots, but often they're the only ones available to me when I'm knife fighting a better turning plane... They are the shot I am looking for. If I was able to hit them more often I'd be much more successful :)
That's exactly what I'm talking about...
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Yep, there's no need to conserve ammo, but every time you spray you're wasting time and you'll be late into the next maneuver and that's the last thing you want in a duel (or in any fight for that matter).
Certainly the shooter runs that risk. OTOH the shooter is more likely to take low % shots in the DA than the MA because he only has one fight to consider. I've been in the DA, I know this to be fact. I'm not saying they would hold teh trigger down the whole fight, but they are more likely to take shots in the DA that they might let go in the MA. Again, they have only one enemy plane to consider.
I'm not sayin the DA doesn't require skill but the MA requires a wider range of skills applied to a much more vast scenario. For instance ,can anyone reasonably argue that SA plays as large a role in the DA that it does in the MA?
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You unload stick pressure a bit at high Gs, otherwise rounds will be spread over too large area.
I don't, and never have done this.
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I'm not saying they would hold teh trigger down the whole fight, but they are more likely to take shots in the DA that they might let go in the MA. Again, they have only one enemy plane to consider.
I find the opposite to be true, for much the same reasons. In the MA, I'm usually not fighting one guy at a time... If I have the slightest chance of hitting one of them, I'm taking it...
In the DA I only have one guy to worry about and through bad results I've had drilled into my head that pressing for a certain shot at a certain time will wind up badly for me... In the MA, that's often not true due to quality of opponent and number of opponents, etc.
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You release pressure on the stick when you shoot? I have never done that, if you do that you will under-lead, assuming you were at the correct lead to begin with.
When I have angle and lead for a shot I stretch lead a bit, then release pressure. It assures tighter grouping and with that more chances to cause damage. But I'm not good shot by any means so I may be wrong on that one.
The only time I could see doing that would be if your are in pure lead pursuit and have to relax the stick to let the bandit "catch-up" to the deflection angle. Is that what you mean?
In this case I'd release pressure as well, so yes...
I have been in about 9,872,638 fights and filmed about 23,789,203 fights I wasn't directly involved in. In almost every one of those fights that was the result of a nose to nose merge there were susequent mini re-merges at an oblique angle resulting in at least one crossing shot opportunity prior the fight either being decided or devolving into mostly in-plane maneuvering and tracking shots.
I'm not that experienced, but whenever I fight one of your squaddies and if I give them crossing shot I die. IIRC, none of them is/was spraying when taking those shots.
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When I have angle and lead for a shot I stretch lead a bit, then release pressure. It assures tighter grouping and with that more chances to cause damage.
Interesting. do you have any data to support this? Assuming you are pulling the correct amount of lead, I would think this would just serve to make some of your rounds miss.
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For instance ,can anyone reasonably argue that SA plays as large a role in the DA that it does in the MA?
Nobody is arguing that. I'm just saying that there is more overlap between DA and MA than Zazen says (he claims there is none).
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Interesting. do you have any data to support this?
Apart from 'Kills Hit Percentage', none really.
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Both sides have good points, but, the MA is a little diffrent from the DA. Like ZaZen said, you don't even have to worry about so much ammo in the DA becasue you only fight one person. I go to the DA alot, and from experience I waste a lot of ammo, just tring to kill the other person. MA though, I try and and get a decent shot, before I take a shot. Unless I'm 1v1 with someone in the MA, I'm not looking to waste ammo in the MA, wereas, I use a lot of ammo in the DA.
This whole argument seems to be looking at "Snapshots". one side says take the shot, the other says don't take the shot. I agree with ZaZen on this one, I have never had a problem manuvering and taking the shot at the same time. You can never expect a clean shot in the DA, because he is tring to out manuver you; you are tring to out manuver him. If you get the shot, take it.
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Nobody is arguing that. I'm just saying that there is more overlap between DA and MA than Zazen says (he claims there is none).
Please don't twist what I said...I did not say there is no overlap whatsoever...I said 1 vs 1s duels are great for learning to ride the edge of a plane and merging. Both of those skills are applicable to the MA.
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I'm not that experienced, but whenever I fight one of your squaddies and if I give them crossing shot I die. IIRC, none of them is/was spraying when taking those shots.
My squaddies are not representative of the average. The Muppets are comprised of some of the best fighter jocks that are currently in the game, most especially in terms of gunnery. For your average fighter pilot that type of shot is probably a 10-15% shot.
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Please don't twist what I said...I did not say there is no overlap whatsoever...I said 1 vs 1s duels are great for learning to ride the edge of a plane and merging. Both of those skills are applicable to the MA.
To quote your answer to WW
They don't overlap very much at all actually.
My squaddies are not representative of the average. The Muppets are comprised of some of the best fighter jocks that are currently in the game, most especially in terms of gunnery. For your average fighter pilot that type of shot is probably a 10-15% shot.
Why do you think they got so good at gunnery? Because they were spraying and praying, or they actually tried and trained to aim? Many of them did and still do practice in DA.
You can learn which shots are worth taking in any arena. DA won't make you spray more than any other arena.
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Why do you think they got so good at gunnery? Because they were spraying and praying, or they actually tried and trained to aim? Many of them did and still do practice in DA.
You can learn which shots are worth taking in any arena. DA won't make you spray more than any other arena.
Shooting a stream up for a crossing shots doesn't mean not aiming, it means using ammunition liberally to take relatively low percentage shots (for most people who don't have 20 years of gunnery experience). While the DA doesn't "make" people shoot at bad shots in this fashion exactly, it doesn't penalize them for doing it either. The MA does. If you squirt your hose at all those bad shots in the MA you'd rarely get more than 1 kill and you would run out of ammunition pretty quickly unless you are endowed with superhuman aiming abilities. In the DA, you are there for only 1 kill so your ammoload is for all practical purposes, infinite. In the MA your ammoload and how judiciously you use it, assuming you do not die, is the single biggest limiting factor that determines how successful your hop is in terms of killing.
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Saying something, "...Doesn't overlap much..", is not the same as saying they have absolutely nothing in common...just FYI.
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Spraying at crossing shots doesn't mean not aiming, it means using ammunition to take relatively low percentage shots (for most people who don't have 20 years of gunenry experience). While the DA doesn't "make" people shoot at bad shots in this fashion exactly, it doesn't penalize them for doing it either. The MA does, if you squirt your hose at all those bad shots in the MA you'd rarely get more than 1 kill and you would run out of ammunition pretty quickly. In the DA, you are there for only 1 kill so your ammoload is for all practical purposes, infinite. In the MA your ammoload and how judiciously you use it, assuming you do not die, is the single biggest limiting factor that determines how successful your hop is in terms of killing.
And again, ammo is not of concern in DA but you still don't take low percentage shots at any opportunity for another reason (time and angles).
And yes, you do get penalized in DA if you miss. In most cases you'll die in the next turn.
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Saying something, "...Doesn't overlap much..", is not the same as saying they have absolutely nothing in common...just FYI.
But you didn't say that. You said "overlap very much at all". Besides, you have to see it in context with the rest of your post.
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And yes, you do get penalized in DA if you miss. In most cases you'll die in the next turn.
How does missing a shot cause you to lose your angle and die exactly? I don't get this connection you keep making between shooting and positional maneuvering. They are two totally separate things, one has nothing to do with the other. One would presume if you had a crossing shot your flightpath relative to the bandit would be close to perpendicular, 90 degrees is even money in terms and angular advantage. You might want to film your next few duels and let someone else watch them, I strongly suspect you are doing something fundamentally wrong...
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But you didn't say that. You said "overlap very much at all". Besides, you have to see it in context with the rest of your post.
Holy cow dude :O, that's still not the same thing as saying, "Has absolutely nothing in common",...Are you intentionally being anal retentive or do you just like arguing?
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I suspect you are doing something fundamentally wrong...
Most likely, and I'll let it be at that, since we are way off topic anyways.
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Geez, wheres the bomber lovin? :lol
Need to help the next generation along. :)
Call Sign:blkmgc
BBS Handle:same
General Location/Times Available:EST primetime
Email:
Preferred Contact Method:Register at our forums and post questions in the general area (link in sig), or PM me here.
And then with some more specific information:
Online Flight Sim Experience:10+ years
Preferred Aircraft:Medium and Heavy bombers
General Style: Hight alt heavy, or medium and low alt light bombers
Can Teach Topics: Formation flight, bombing precision, defensive and evasive tactics, gunnery ,comms ect
Teaching Method: MA mainly, or one on one if needed in the TA. Can provide a group to train for formations
Can Teach Skill Level(s): Beginner to Expert
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I deliberately set up 3v1 duels for the sole purpose of improving SA of MA regulars. We have these in the TA, with very specific rules for what constitutes a death (any hit to cockpit glass). I usually take 75% fuel as I may fly 5 or 6 of these consecutively. When I finally run low on gas, I usually have ammo remaining. Every pilot gets a shot at being the lone ranger, but I always go first to give the three an opportunity to work as a team, while I try to demonstrate how to assess threats and eliminate them in order.
3v1 requires top notch SA. It requires very good E management skills. It requires death laser gun accuracy. You cannot afford to miss any shots.
Some players show marked improvement over the course of the evening, while others become hopelessly disoriented.
Generally, a superior dueler will be successful in the MA if he recognizes that one must expand his SA to a far large volume of air space. 3v1 duels help them adjust to that.
My regards,
Widewing
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I deliberately set up 3v1 duels for the sole purpose of improving SA of MA regulars. We have these in the TA, with very specific rules for what constitutes a death (any hit to cockpit glass). I usually take 75% fuel as I may fly 5 or 6 of these consecutively. When I finally run low on gas, I usually have ammo remaining. Every pilot gets a shot at being the lone ranger, but I always go first to give the three an opportunity to work as a team, while I try to demonstrate how to assess threats and eliminate them in order.
3v1 requires top notch SA. It requires very good E management skills. It requires death laser gun accuracy. You cannot afford to miss any shots.
Some players show marked improvement over the course of the evening, while others become hopelessly disoriented.
Generally, a superior dueler will be successful in the MA if he recognizes that one must expand his SA to a far large volume of air space. 3v1 duels help them adjust to that.
My regards,
Widewing
Sounds like a great training tool. IMHO
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I must confess- I'm one of those that believes in releasing stick pressure when I shoot. Due to that, rather than flying a true arc as I fire in a turn, my flight path would probably look more like I was flying the outer edge of a stop-sign. I'll fly the arch while in pursuit, and then as I prepare to fire I pull a bit of extra lead, let off on the stick, and fire where I think his cockpit will be when my rounds get there. Right after I fire, I assess whether my guess was correct or not, and then repeat with any needed modifications to my aim-point.
I believe I read somewhere eons ago that "unloading" G's was preferable to firing while pulling G's. I tried it, and swear by it now. Although it sounds like the "stop-sign" flightpath is goofy, in reality it generally only takes one or two short bursts to finish the fight. Part of that may be because I get close and fire at convergence... Probably a good practice, but I actually do it because if I don't, I'll miss, hehe! I've found I can hit big, close targets easier than long range itty-bitty ones.
Due to my shooting style, I've found that firing and missing will cost me time and angles, just as Bighorn mentions. So, I just don't fire until I think I surely can't miss.
Also (I believe) due to my unloading G's and firing a short burst, I find it the norm that my rounds will all land in a tight group on my target. For example, if I hit the cockpit, the cockpit will be covered with sprites, but that's about it- very few sprites show up anywhere else.
My shooting style changes not a bit in the DA. But, I don't do so hot in the DA either. Part (most) of that is because I have a bad attitude regarding the DA. I have it in my head that the DA is boring, so I'm bored with fighting/dueling there. I'm normally bored in the DA by the time I get my gear up, and I find my fights lack "spunk" as a result. I really just don't care if I win or not, and for me anyway, I have to care or I won't do well. It's my fault entirely- it's all in my head, but...
For me to get exited about fighting, I need the wild randomness of the MA environment. That's a weakness of mine, I know I'd benefit from some DA time. I just can't bring myself to log in there and take it seriously.
MtnMan
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It's pretty common for 1v1s between good stick these days to degrade into a rolling scissors type fight. Under those conditions, blowing a shot usually means leaving yourself open for a shot in the next series. That is because you often had to change your pursuit angle to gain the shot, and it naturally creates a fligh path overshoot that your opponent might convert into a wingline overshoot. (ie. I see exactly what Bighorn is saying in that regard)
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It's pretty common for 1v1s between good stick these days to degrade into a rolling scissors type fight. Under those conditions, blowing a shot usually means leaving yourself open for a shot in the next series. That is because you often had to change your pursuit angle to gain the shot, and it naturally creates a fligh path overshoot that your opponent might convert into a wingline overshoot. (ie. I see exactly what Bighorn is saying in that regard)
So, you're saying switching from lag pursuit to lead opens the door for him to beat you around the next corner. I'm in that scissoring situation all the time, as my favorite ride rolls like a honey coated fat lady uphill, everyone wants to scissor me. I can see that happening and it does now and then, but I don't think it's as cut and dry as, "If I miss this one shot I'm definitely dead...". At least I've never seen that, you can still "catchup" if you are prepared to be quick on the reverse if you miss.
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I must confess- I'm one of those that believes in releasing stick pressure when I shoot. Due to that, rather than flying a true arc as I fire in a turn, my flight path would probably look more like I was flying the outer edge of a stop-sign. I'll fly the arch while in pursuit, and then as I prepare to fire I pull a bit of extra lead, let off on the stick, and fire where I think his cockpit will be when my rounds get there. Right after I fire, I assess whether my guess was correct or not, and then repeat with any needed modifications to my aim-point.
I believe I read somewhere eons ago that "unloading" G's was preferable to firing while pulling G's. I tried it, and swear by it now. Although it sounds like the "stop-sign" flightpath is goofy, in reality it generally only takes one or two short bursts to finish the fight. Part of that may be because I get close and fire at convergence... Probably a good practice, but I actually do it because if I don't, I'll miss, hehe! I've found I can hit big, close targets easier than long range itty-bitty ones.
Due to my shooting style, I've found that firing and missing will cost me time and angles, just as Bighorn mentions. So, I just don't fire until I think I surely can't miss.
Also (I believe) due to my unloading G's and firing a short burst, I find it the norm that my rounds will all land in a tight group on my target. For example, if I hit the cockpit, the cockpit will be covered with sprites, but that's about it- very few sprites show up anywhere else.
My shooting style changes not a bit in the DA. But, I don't do so hot in the DA either. Part (most) of that is because I have a bad attitude regarding the DA. I have it in my head that the DA is boring, so I'm bored with fighting/dueling there. I'm normally bored in the DA by the time I get my gear up, and I find my fights lack "spunk" as a result. I really just don't care if I win or not, and for me anyway, I have to care or I won't do well. It's my fault entirely- it's all in my head, but...
For me to get exited about fighting, I need the wild randomness of the MA environment. That's a weakness of mine, I know I'd benefit from some DA time. I just can't bring myself to log in there and take it seriously.
MtnMan
Interesting, if anything I tend to use lag pursuit and pull a bit heavier on the shot so if he's looking in his rear view he thinks he's safe until it's too late...The only time I like lead pursuit is if I'm trying to work off his E advantage, so I pull a lead angle he has to at least match, preferably beat or give me a shot. This means I either get a shot or he has to blow E to pull more G's or change the vector of his turn to "catchup" or change the angle to out-of-plane which is only a temporary cure.
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I deliberately set up 3v1 duels for the sole purpose of improving SA of MA regulars. We have these in the TA, with very specific rules for what constitutes a death (any hit to cockpit glass). I usually take 75% fuel as I may fly 5 or 6 of these consecutively. When I finally run low on gas, I usually have ammo remaining. Every pilot gets a shot at being the lone ranger, but I always go first to give the three an opportunity to work as a team, while I try to demonstrate how to assess threats and eliminate them in order.
3v1 requires top notch SA. It requires very good E management skills. It requires death laser gun accuracy. You cannot afford to miss any shots.
Some players show marked improvement over the course of the evening, while others become hopelessly disoriented.
Generally, a superior dueler will be successful in the MA if he recognizes that one must expand his SA to a far large volume of air space. 3v1 duels help them adjust to that.
My regards,
Widewing
wow i could use about 3 months of those
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wow i could use about 3 months of those
Yea, sounds like fun! :)
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So, you're saying switching from lag pursuit to lead opens the door for him to beat you around the next corner. I'm in that scissoring situation all the time, as my favorite ride rolls like a honey coated fat lady uphill, everyone wants to scissor me. I can see that happening and it does now and then, but I don't think it's as cut and dry as, "If I miss this one shot I'm definitely dead...". At least I've never seen that, you can still "catchup" if you are prepared to be quick on the reverse if you miss.
Well, it's very rare that anything is "cut and dry" in life, so chalk that up to my exaggerating...
Anyway, it's the same concept as a simple barrel roll guns defense... If he goes for the shot and misses, he's in trouble. Sure, it might be possible to play "catch up," but catching up takes much more work (and often luck) than keeping yourself out of that situation in the first place. If you're dueling someone much better than you, catching up is a huge hill to climb.
Basically, the angle required for a shot is often different from the angle required to keep yourself in a good position to counter your opponent's next move, should you miss the shot.
I am wondering if part of the reason for our different takes on this has much to do with your being a much better shot than me. What I see as a low % "If I miss, I'm in deep trouble" shot, you probably see as an "I'm not going to miss, fight's over" situation :)
I'm shooting 5-6%... Out of all my weaknesses, it's probably my biggest.
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I deliberately set up 3v1 duels for the sole purpose of improving SA of MA regulars.
Hey, I'd like to try that sometime.
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Well, it's very rare that anything is "cut and dry" in life, so chalk that up to my exaggerating...
I am wondering if part of the reason for our different takes on this has much to do with your being a much better shot than me. What I see as a low % "If I miss, I'm in deep trouble" shot, you probably see as an "I'm not going to miss, fight's over" situation :)
I'm shooting 5-6%... Out of all my weaknesses, it's probably my biggest.
Yea, I was not understanding what bighorn was doing when he kept correlating missing to instant death...He doesn't know what the maneuvers are called or how to describe them, so we were both getting frustrated. I hope Murdr nailed it, because I can visualize that and can sort of see what he means now.
Yea, I'll be honest, I fly only nose-low deflection view rich planes to make the most of my aim. To not do so feels kind of like Samantha in "Bewitched" not using her nose wiggling magic, it's the silly squandering of a gift. I would fly a steaming, maggot riddled turd with wings if it had a great nose-low deflection view and a decent gun. As a result of that plane/pilot dynamic I rarely miss any shot unless I'm plinking away a few rounds at a time toward a butter churning stirrer in a small plane. I'll sometimes just get a glancing blow, but even at atrocious angles for a fleeting millisecond I'm usually golden. I'm always taking crazy shots just to see if I can add them to my mental aiming computer's repetoire. I even spent a few months practicing killing at high deflection while inverted, that was a real mind-twister.
Ironically, that actually tends to bite me in the arse because I will assume I'm going to immediately kill plane X so already start thinking about plane Y I want to kill next, but then plane X does something completely unexpected, it's usually newer players who are incredibly hard to predict because they don't do the most logical thing like a veteran would. Now I've pulled my pants down for plane Y AND plane X is still on the loose. Had I humbly anticipated the possibility of not destroying plane X perfunctorily I would still have separation from plane Y or may have elected to switch targets the second I went no-joy on plane X before over-comitting to him and compromising my position. It just never occurs to me that I may miss a shot.
But, yea it's hard for me to relate my experiences because of my unusual aim the same way I sometimes fail to understand a complex series of maneuvers I've never or rarely had to perform as they are related to me by someone who is a vastly superior flyer to me. I've never been a great flyer, but I've never really had to be either to be very efficient at killing. I guess if I had to pick being good at one or the other I would rather be good at gunnery. Gunnery is purely offensive in nature, flying is actually primarily defensive in nature. I'd rather be better at shooting people down than maneuvering to avoid being shot down. Which has always been what's happened my entire air combat sim career.
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wow i could use about 3 months of those
Well, I'm going to schedule the next 3v1 event for middle August. I'll post it here about a week prior. We try to get a solid mix of vets and newer players, with a few ringers thrown in. Murdr, Rolex, TC, Hammer and Ghosth have all participated. We also invite whole squads. Saxman has brought his gang in at least twice. We will have some good pilots in the next one, TonyJoey wants to participate and we can count on several other MA vets.
It's a great chance to fight off a mob without consequence or status being at stake. 3v1 fights are tough to win, but the insight gained is very useful in the various arenas.
We finish the event by dividing the pilots into two groups for a big furball.
Rules are simple. Fly any non-perked fighter. Any hit to the cockpit glass is considered a kill shot. If you are part of the 3, any such hit requires that you turn on air show smoke (indicating that you are out of the fight) and disengage. You must fly out beyond icon range, whereupon you turn off the smoke and return to the fight. This provides visual reward for kills and allows the lone pilot to progress through the enemy, if he can. This event depends on the honor system, and with very rare exception, no one fudges or blatantly cheats. Augers will occur, but you may immediately re-up and rejoin the fight.
We've had as many as 30 participants in the past, meaning there were at least 7 groups fighting at any time. After about 15 minutes (when ammo is running low), we rotate one pilot from each group to another and take off again for another round. In the course of two hours, everyone will have had an opportunity to fight each pilot either as part of the 3 pilot team, or as the "lone ranger". Everyone should run film.
So, watch this forum for the event notice.
My regards,
Widewing
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Sign me up WideWing, sounds fun.
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I believe I read somewhere eons ago that "unloading" G's was preferable to firing while pulling G's. I tried it, and swear by it now. Although it sounds like the "stop-sign" flightpath is goofy, in reality it generally only takes one or two short bursts to finish the fight. Part of that may be because I get close and fire at convergence... Probably a good practice, but I actually do it because if I don't, I'll miss, hehe! I've found I can hit big, close targets easier than long range itty-bitty ones.
Honestly, I believe that unloading before shooting was done to lessen the risk of the guns jamming due to the flexing of the ammunition pathing during high G loads.
I, of course, could be wrong. But if I'm not, then unloading isn't really important in AH2, since gun jams aren't modeled. That said, I expect that you have taught yourself to get a better angle and consequently you get a longer burst on target.
The effect of unloading may improve your gunnery, but perhaps not for the reasons you may think.
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Honestly, I believe that unloading before shooting was done to lessen the risk of the guns jamming due to the flexing of the ammunition pathing during high G loads.
I, of course, could be wrong. But if I'm not, then unloading isn't really important in AH2, since gun jams aren't modeled. That said, I expect that you have taught yourself to get a better angle and consequently you get a longer burst on target.
The effect of unloading may improve your gunnery, but perhaps not for the reasons you may think.
Yea , I read that too. One of the Earlier Spit versions had a real problem with that. I think sometimes to fix it they even had to do a negative G push as it had to be unstuck.
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I disagree on few points (marked in red)
Quote from: Zazen13 on Yesterday at 12:32:32 PM
There is no SA required.
SA is required. Very much so. Albeit not all SA elements are required in a duel
There is no careful balancing of the maximization of the strengths of one aircraft vs. the weaknesses of another.
You can duel in diff aircraft. Many do
There is very little consideration for E management.
It is exactly opposite.
There is no need for cooperative tactics and communication.
True only in 1vs1 duel
There is no consideration required for ammunition conservation making good aim relatively unimportant as you can spray to your heart's content and hope for lucky hits.
Spraying will kill you quickly in a well matched duel. Good aim is essential
There is no consideration required to the adjustment of your flying to compensate for the state of your fuel-load.
True
There is no consideration for the exploitation of an initial energy advantage or negating an intial energy disadvantage.
Not as often as in MA, but it does happen in a duel
Stole the words right out of my mouth...
I disagree with you. The less relative E you have the more important angles become as your options to use E to maneuver radically in order to create angles decrease progressively to the point where E can't be converted to angles at all and you are now stallfighting. The lower your E state the less you have to lose, relatively speaking, by sacraficing Energy for an angle even if it means eroding your E state further toward a pure stallfight where there is no excess energy to manage at all.
Quite the opposite. Infact, the less E you have, the more important it becomes to manage what you have left in order to covert that into "angles," position, and the kill shot. Think of it this way, without managing your E carefully, you won't have enough power to pull over the top on a rolling scissors and you'll end up stalled or floating right into your opponents gun sights. Or, you may not be able to cut inside your opponents turn, or make him (or her) overshoot. As you can see, the possibilities are almost endless...
Also, see below.
I agree with both points... Just to add a few thoughts...
Point #1 - Energy still matters very much so in an angles fight, as certain angles simply cannot be obtained with it, or without it. It's just that it's not so apparent as a typical MA fight where one party often starts with a noticeable advantage.
Successfully judging a person's energy state pre-merge is a *huge* part of dueling. Whereas you might see people just using a few basic moves, Zazen, you can bet your butt they're deliberately coming in at different speeds for the same maneuver. A good dueler needs to mix it up and be unpredictable... If they can't do that, they'll be beat the same way over and over again.
Energy goes both ways... And dispite popular thought, having a surplus is not *always* a good thing, by any means. It is at times, sure.
You might want to film your next few duels and let someone else watch them, I strongly suspect you are doing something fundamentally wrong...
:rofl :rofl If he's doing something wrong, the rest of us might as well not even try.
donkey
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Interesting, if anything I tend to use lag pursuit and pull a bit heavier on the shot so if he's looking in his rear view he thinks he's safe until it's too late...The only time I like lead pursuit is if I'm trying to work off his E advantage, so I pull a lead angle he has to at least match, preferably beat or give me a shot. This means I either get a shot or he has to blow E to pull more G's or change the vector of his turn to "catchup" or change the angle to out-of-plane which is only a temporary cure.
Yea, I do the same thing, more or less. I'll switch between different pursuit modes depending on my needs during a fight, but lag is probably my most common. I just pull lead for the shot.
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Honestly, I believe that unloading before shooting was done to lessen the risk of the guns jamming due to the flexing of the ammunition pathing during high G loads.
I, of course, could be wrong. But if I'm not, then unloading isn't really important in AH2, since gun jams aren't modeled. That said, I expect that you have taught yourself to get a better angle and consequently you get a longer burst on target.
The effect of unloading may improve your gunnery, but perhaps not for the reasons you may think.
That could be... Like I said, I don't really remember- it's been a long time since I gave much thought to it.
I generally don't need a very long burst on target though, unless it's on a bomber. My bursts are short 1/4 - 1/2 second spurts. And on buffs I'm more likely to fire while pulling a bit, since I'm looking at a "fire-hose" scenario, where I'm trying to land all my hits from a 1-2 second burst.
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Quite the opposite. Infact, the less E you have, the more important it becomes to manage what you have left in order to covert that into "angles," position, and the kill shot. Think of it this way, without managing your E carefully, you won't have enough power to pull over the top on a rolling scissors and you'll end up stalled or floating right into your opponents gun sights. Or, you may not be able to cut inside your opponents turn, or make him (or her) overshoot. As you can see, the possibilities are almost endless...
I totally get where you're coming from and don't necessarily disagree with you. But, that is not what I meant really. What I mean is the less relative E you have compared to your opponent, the more you are angles fighting, the more you angles fight, the more the fight will devolve into stallfighting eventually, it's the nature of air combat. During this process as relative E states erode, your options (and his) to use E to create angles diminish gradually to the point where it's almost non-existant. That is not to say you don't have to think about E management at all by any means, you will just have fewer and fewer ways available to have effective E management make a substantial impact on the angle or your position relative to the foe, especially since you started out Co-E/Co-Alt and can each theoretically neutralize or counter any move by virtue of E/Option parity..
It is to say that E management becomes much less a process unto itself, for its own sake, to create angles and more simply a secondary consideration while attempting to get an advantageous angle and keep it relative to your opponent. This is especially true the closer the fight gets toward a stallfight. There is a critical point of no return where the angle you have right before you both become E bankrupt and begin stallfighting that your relative angular position will be almost "cast in stone". From that point forward neither of you will have the relative E to change it much, if it all. This is the "riding the edge" phase. Generally, whoever rides the edge of the stall best will be able to change the angle enough for a shot and win, this involves almost no E management whatsoever as you don't have any E to manage. So, from the beginning to that point, E management, as a means to its own end, becomes less and less important than the angles and your position relative the your opponent in a progressive way..
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Ok, so this thread has been hijacked something like three or four times now. There was a flame-war about people's self-perceptions of their combat skills; there has been discussion on dueling tactics vs main arena tactics; there has been discussion on gunnery tactics; geez, what am I missing? After 200+ posts I kinda lost track of where the thread went. There has been good discussion on gunnery, such as "to unload G's or not" and another topic that I can't remember because it got lost in the pile.
My question is this: Why can't people start a new thread once things stray so far from the original topic? If I want to come back in the future to read some jewel of info about gunnery that is buried in this thread, I doubt very much that I'd remember that it's 3/4 the way through a thread on "Unofficial" people helping others in the Training Arena.
:(
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Ok, so this thread has been hijacked something like three or four times now. There was a flame-war about people's self-perceptions of their combat skills; there has been discussion on dueling tactics vs main arena tactics; there has been discussion on gunnery tactics; geez, what am I missing? After 200+ posts I kinda lost track of where the thread went. There has been good discussion on gunnery, such as "to unload G's or not" and another topic that I can't remember because it got lost in the pile.
My question is this: Why can't people start a new thread once things stray so far from the original topic? If I want to come back in the future to read some jewel of info about gunnery that is buried in this thread, I doubt very much that I'd remember that it's 3/4 the way through a thread on "Unofficial" people helping others in the Training Arena.
:(
That's just how BBS's go, unfortunately I responded to someones banter and they probably didn't even read it because of all the garbage posted after.
It would be nice if someones going to hijax to simply create a new post, but you cant teach squeakers new tricks.
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It would be nice if someones going to hijax to simply create a new post, but you cant teach squeakers new tricks.
Yup, that's nothing new...I've given up reading many posts because of that...now this one is on my mental ignore list too.
<Salute> Squeakers :furious
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That's just how BBS's go, unfortunately I responded to someones banter and they probably didn't even read it because of all the garbage posted after.
It would be nice if someones going to hijax to simply create a new post, but you cant teach squeakers new tricks.
Umm lighten up please..The original premise of this thread had petered out anyway, first of all. Secondly, all worthwhile discussions go off on tangents. Just because a thread has 3 or 4 tangents throughout does not mean each of those tangents needs or is deserving of another thread of its own. This thread was originally just a bunch of people posting their credentials to be mentors. Just reading that kind of "Phone-book-esque" type information is a lot less interesting than what has been discussed after everyone who cared had already posted their "curriculum vitae"
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Umm lighten up please..The original premise of this thread had petered out anyway first of all. Secondly, all worthwhile discussions go off on tangents. Just because a thread has 3 or 4 tangents throughout does not mean each of those tangents needs or is deserving of another thread of its own. This thread was originally just a bunch of people posting their credentials to be mentors. Just reading that kind of "Phone-book-esque" type information is a lot less interesting than what has been discussed after everyone who cared had already posted their "curriculum vitae"
Amen to that.
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I totally get where you're coming from and don't necessarily disagree with you. But, that is not what I meant really. What I mean is the less relative E you have compared to your opponent, the more you are angles fighting, the more you angles fight, the more the fight will devolve into stallfighting eventually, it's the nature of air combat. During this process as relative E states erode, your options (and his) to use E to create angles diminish gradually to the point where it's almost non-existant. That is not to say you don't have to think about E management at all by any means, you will just have fewer and fewer ways available to have effective E management make a substantial impact on the angle or your position relative to the foe, especially since you started out Co-E/Co-Alt and can each theoretically neutralize or counter any move by virtue of E/Option parity..
It is to say that E management becomes much less a process unto itself, for its own sake, to create angles and more simply a secondary consideration while attempting to get an advantageous angle and keep it relative to your opponent. This is especially true the closer the fight gets toward a stallfight. There is a critical point of no return where the angle you have right before you both become E bankrupt and begin stallfighting that your relative angular position will be almost "cast in stone". From that point forward neither of you will have the relative E to change it much, if it all. This is the "riding the edge" phase. Generally, whoever rides the edge of the stall best will be able to change the angle enough for a shot and win, this involves almost no E management whatsoever as you don't have any E to manage. So, from the beginning to that point, E management, as a means to its own end, becomes less and less important than the angles and your position relative the your opponent in a progressive way..
I also see where you're coming from, and respect your opinion, but it just doesn't work out that way for me. Can we both agree that angles fighting has a element of E fighting, and vice versa, that in a way they are really interconnected more then some people give credit for, which could be why we differ on this subject, even though both parties arguments seem right/acceptable?
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I also see where you're coming from, and respect your opinion, but it just doesn't work out that way for me. Can we both agree that angles fighting has a element of E fighting, and vice versa, that in a way they are really interconnected more then some people give credit for, which could be why we differ on this subject, even though both parties arguments seem right/acceptable?
Ok, I think I can distill this. E/Angles fighting aren't mutually exclusive, but they can be somewhat inversely proportional in terms of consideration during the life cycle of an isolated encounter.
Does that sound about right?
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Does that sound about right?
Not unless you define what each of the terms (E fighting and angles fighting) mean to you.
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Not unless you define what each of the terms (E fighting and angles fighting) mean to you.
I don't think I could ever hope to explain it to you satisfactorily. There is something missing in our ability to understand one another. I think our perspectives are so incredibly divergent it's like you are speaking Chinese and I am speaking German. I've actually never had this problem before in many years of these types of discourses. I can always "get into" the other guy's skin and visualize what he is describing, even if I've never had the direct experience myself. With you I cannot for some reason, it's an enigma.
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Ok, I think I can distill this. E/Angles fighting aren't mutually exclusive, but they can be somewhat inversely proportional in terms of consideration during the life cycle of an isolated encounter.
Does that sound about right?
lol Zaz, what the hell does that actualy mean?? :P sometimes ya can use too many words to describe something simple. Are you saying they are both part of dogfighting and practicing one exclusively is foolhardy? no flame here sir you know you have my respect, i honestly have no clue what you are saying :D
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lol Zaz, what the hell does that actualy mean?? :P sometimes ya can use too many words to describe something simple. Are you saying they are both part of dogfighting and practicing one exclusively is foolhardy? no flame here sir you know you have my respect, i honestly have no clue what you are saying :D
You got it, that was as concise as I could make it. I've always been of the mind that using 1 perfect word to describe something is better than 5 imperfect ones, even if the 1 word has 7 syllables.
Just add that once you're stallfighting, full flaps, riding the horn like a disgruntled camel jockey, E fighting/management ceases to exist and angles are all that matters because you have no E other than the bare minimum to keep your plane from pancaking.
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and angles are all that matters
Isn't that valid for just about any fight? How else can you shoot other guy?
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Just add that once you're stallfighting, full flaps, riding the horn like a disgruntled camel jockey, E fighting/management ceases to exist and angles are all that matters because you have no E other than the bare minimum to keep your plane from pancaking.
Well... now that may be pushing it. You will always have to manage your E (in order to gain angles), especially in this situation. If both pilots are "stallfighting, full flaps, riding the horn like a disgruntled camel jockey... and have "no E other then the bare minimum to keep [their] plane from pancaking," and assuming the same plane for each pilot, then no angles would be gained, and E management would then become exponentially more important.
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Isn't that valid for just about any fight? How else can you shoot other guy?
Bighorn, I am at a complete loss at how to explain abstract concepts to you. Nothing I tell you makes any sense to you and nothing you tell me makes any sense to me. So, rather than waste both our time typing and getting frustrated I'm not going to even try...
PS: Truncating quotes for effect so you can more easily take what I say out of context doesn't help either.
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Well... now that may be pushing it. You will always have to manage your E (in order to gain angles), especially in this situation. If both pilots are "stallfighting, full flaps, riding the horn like a disgruntled camel jockey... and have "no E other then the bare minimum to keep [their] plane from pancaking," and assuming the same plane for each pilot, then no angles would be gained, and E management would then become exponentially more important.
You are right no angle will be gained if they both are stallfighting perfectly. That's why stallfights often last so long and are bushwhacked so much in the MA. Stallfights boil down to who makes a mistake and "fails" to "ride the edge" as effectively as the other. Once someone "gets off the edge" the other is going to get lead and it's over. I filmed a stallfight I had once. It lasted over 17 mins just from the point we both became E bankrupt (it felt like an hour). I finally made a mistake, lost the edge and pancaked. We never got a shot on each other the entire time. Had I not messed up it could have possibly lasted 3 hours or more. Neither of us had the E to do anything other than hang onto the edge for dear life.
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Bighorn, I am at a complete loss at how to explain abstract concepts to you. Nothing I tell you makes any sense to you and nothing you tell me makes any sense to me. So, rather than waste both our time typing and getting frustrated I'm not going to even try...
PS: Truncating quotes for effect so you can more easily take what I say out of context doesn't help either.
OK here's the full quote, and before you become frustrated, let me tell you that I do not distinguish between E and angles fighting.
In every fight I use BFMs and manage E. I convert E into angles as needed. How much and how quickly, depends on the situation. If the fight deteriorates down to stall speeds and I ran out of E, I'll have to regain some back or I'll die. Hence E management in stall fight.
That's how I see it.
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. If the fight deteriorates down to stall speeds and I ran out of E, I'll have to regain some back or I'll die. Hence E management in stall fight.
You have a nasty fatalistic streak, try not to be so pessimistic. Why would you automatically die if you run out of E and your opponent is also out of E? You would just be stallfighting at that point and equally matched...Do you have the stall limiter on?
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You have a nasty fatalistic streak, try not to be so pessimistic. Why would you automatically die if you run out of E and your opponent is also out of E? You would just be stallfighting at that point and equally matched...Do you have stall limiter on?
Firstly because it's about kill or be killed (that what air combat is about, or so I was told) and secondly it's smart not to count on other's guy mistake.
As for the stall limiter, I'll have to check that one.
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Firstly because it's about kill or be killed (that what air combat is about, or so I was told) and secondly it's smart not to count on other's guy mistake.
As for the stall limiter, I'll have to check that one.
I think it defaults to on and that could be the source of your despair in that regard.
I find at least the majority of my fights are decided purely by exploiting the mistakes of my opponent (as opposed to just a great shot or simply outflying him). Air combat is a check and balances system, for every move there is an ideal counter-move. Unless someone makes a mistake at some point no one would ever get killed theoretically. Sometimes your only choice is to wait for the other guy to make a mistake because he is really good at perfectly countering every pro-active thing you try to do. Or, as in my stallfighting example, you have both run out of Energy, therefore options, to be proactive, in which case the loser is absolutely always the first one to make a mistake.
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I'll throw my name into the hat.
Call Sign: SubwayCH
BBS Handle: SubwayCH
General Location/Times Available: Usually available past 10 o'clock most nights (until probably late August, then school kicks back in)
Email: Pm me for it please.
Preferred Contact Method: Private message on BBS/Email.
Online Flight Sim Experience: Started at tour 75, which is around 2 years or so. I"m only 13 years old, so if your looking for a more mature trainer, look at some of the other posts in this thread. All of them can be a great help.
Preferred Aircraft: Yak-9U/Yak-9T/FM2/F4F are my main ones. I can really teach anything though. Yak-9U is my true specialty, so if your looking for help in this, I could help you.
General Style: TnB (Turn and Burn). I like having fights up close and personal.
Can Teach Topics: TnB, Landing (something I can say i"m very good at).
Teaching Method: DA/TA mainly.
Can Teach Skill Level(s): Beginner's.
Hope this is a help to 1st time players.
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This lively discussions brings out some very good information. I find myself agreeing and disagreeing frequently, but i think most of this comes down to style. Some people put their right leg into the pants first, others their left.
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This lively discussions brings out some very good information. I find myself agreeing and disagreeing frequently, but i think most of this comes down to style. Some people put their right leg into the pants first, others their left.
Nicely put. The fun is encouraging another to explain his perspective to the point you can visualize it and play it out a lot like Einstein did with his thought experiments. Nothing is more powerful than looking through another's eyes to expand your conceptual horizons. If more people in the world did this maybe we wouldn't be so hellbent and determiend to kill each other.
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You are right no angle will be gained if they both are stallfighting perfectly. That's why stallfights often last so long and are bushwhacked so much in the MA. Stallfights boil down to who makes a mistake and "fails" to "ride the edge" as effectively as the other. Once someone "gets off the edge" the other is going to get lead and it's over. I filmed a stallfight I had once. It lasted over 17 mins just from the point we both became E bankrupt (it felt like an hour). I finally made a mistake, lost the edge and pancaked. We never got a shot on each other the entire time. Had I not messed up it could have possibly lasted 3 hours or more. Neither of us had the E to do anything other than hang onto the edge for dear life.
Then maybe you're approaching dueling in the wrong fashion. Where you believe you must expend E in order to gain angles and then hold those angles in a maximum E diminished state (once "all" of your E has been used up), bighorn and I (correct me if I'm assuming wrong bh) come into a duel believing that managing E and angles are just as important as the other, and in bh's words, "convert E into angles as needed, and vice versa . How much and how quickly, depends on the situation.
Bold being my own words.
If I go lag pursuit and build some E, while the other guy pulls back as hard as he can on his stick while "riding the edge without any E," sure he'll gain some angles, but he won't have the E to then follow me up, becuase the only E he has is enough to keep him from pancaking. Managing E in an angles fight is just as important (if not more so then) just orienting your lift vector on your opponent and then pulling back.
donkey
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Sorry, but I just don't feel like writing anything up right now, so I'll pull a topical quote...
Ok, let me give you a couple examples. Lets start with a duel scenario. I attempt to get the best advantage I can possibly get at the merge, either with vertical separation, a lead turn, or both. Let's say I got some form of advantage at the initial merge. I enter the turn at 6+ Gs, then ease off on the stick to view the opponent. So now at this point, 1/3rd into the first turn, I see that I have positional advantage (I'll complete a reversal first, or inside the opponent, or both). Right here is an E vs angles choice. One could, continue the best possible turn and go for a shot. Or, what I normally do, is ease my turn just enough to maintain a slight positional advantage at the next merge. I just saved E. Second merge, second turn, I have the same situation owing to the fact, that I allowed myself to maintain a slight advantage going into that merge. Same scenario after the merge, and I do the same...Just turn tight enough to maintain a slight positional advantage. I just saved a little more E.
If we started with the exact same E, by the third mege I have an E advantage, and with that, I have more maneuver options than the other guy. Odds are there will not be a fourth merge, because no matter what the other plane does, I have more options, and can likely convert that into chasing his tail on his side of the circle.
--snip--
Any of the better sticks can switch seamlessly between angles and E fighting, and even mislead the bogie into thinking they are doing one when actually the goal is the other.
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Then maybe you're approaching dueling in the wrong fashion. Where you believe you must expend E in order to gain angles and then hold those angles in a maximum E diminished state (once "all" of your E has been used up), bighorn and I (correct me if I'm assuming wrong bh) come into a duel believing that managing E and angles are just as important as the other, and in bh's words, "
Bold being my own words.
Did you read my earlier post up the thread a bit?
They start off 50/50 in importance, but the closer you get to stallfighting the more important angles become because the angle you are at when you both go E bankrupt is "cast in stone". Only a flagrant mistake can change it from that point on...If you run out of E while you are in a bad position you're going to have a really hard time making that angle up stallfighting. He's going to have to make a huge mistake or a lot of little ones. Conversely, if when you run out of E you're angle is good and you're just a tug away from a lead shot, you're going to pop his arse the first second he falls off the edge.
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Did you read my earlier post up the thread a bit?
They start off 50/50 in importance, but the closer you get to stallfighting the more important angles become because the angle you are at when you both go E bankrupt is "cast in stone". Only a flagrant mistake can change it from that point on...If you run out of E while you are in a bad position you're going to have a really hard time making that angle up stallfighting. He's going to have to make a huge mistake or a lot of little ones. Conversely, if when you run out of E you're angle is good and you're just a tug away from a lead shot, you're going to pop his arse the first second he falls off the edge.
I'll have to look for it, I don't have much time right now, and I'd like to respond so as to give you time to think about your reply...
The closer you get to stall fighting, the more important E fighting actually becomes, or else, as you said, the two duelers would fly around endlessly trying in vain to gain angles. The more E you manage (and in most cases save up), the more options you have over your opponent, and as he approaches having just enough E to stall fight/ keep from pancaking, the bigger this advantage that you hold becomes.
donkey
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:furious I just said that!
:)
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:furious I just said that!
:)
My bad, I didn't see you post it while I was thinking of my response.
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I'll have to look for it, I don't have much time right now, and I'd like to respond so as to give you time to think about your reply...
The closer you get to stall fighting, the more important E fighting actually becomes, or else, as you said, the two duelers would fly around endlessly trying in vain to gain angles. The more E you manage (and in most cases save up), the more options you have over your opponent, and as he approaches having just enough E to stall fight/ keep from pancaking, the bigger this advantage that you hold becomes.
donkey
Ahh, I see where we are misunderstanding one another. I am simply extrapolating the Co-E/Co-Alt initial relative E state all the way down to the point of the stallfight for the purpose of illustration. Only by keeping that a constant can you really compare. The assumption is the pilots are evenly matched therefore none is able to obtain a substantial energy advantage on the other so they reach the E bankrupt state together. Once there the effort of one to "get off" the angle and create some E results in the other doing the same or gaining positional angular advantage while the other tries to create E relative to the him.
But, I see where you are coming from. If two pilots duel and there is a significant skill disparity or one blows the merge, then definitely once the other uses the skill/merge advantage to change the engagement at it's core from Co-E/Co-Alt to some other state of relative E disparity, maintaining and/or not allowing the underdog the chance to negate that advantage would be very important. More important than angles because anytime you please you could use that excess relative E to create an angle almost at will. That's why I used the term relative E states in my initial posts, so long as the relative E differential net sum is zero and neither can manipulate it otherwise angles are the equal or greater consideration especially so as E drops in unison and option/opportunities to create it unilaterally decline proportionately.
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Ahh, I see where we are misunderstanding one another. I am simply extrapolating the Co-E/Co-Alt initial relative E state all the way down to the point of the stallfight for the purpose of illustration. Only by keeping that a constant can you really compare. The assumption is the pilots are evenly matched therefore none is able to obtain a substantial energy advantage on the other so they reach the E bankrupt state together. Once there the effort of one to "get off" the angle and create some E results in the other doing the same or gaining positional angular advantage while the other tries to create E relative to the him.
So you're saying that the two pilots will go 'round and 'round in a bankrupt E state until one person goes over the edge and pancakes, because whatever pilot A does to gain an advantage in anyway, pilot B will match that?
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So you're saying that two politicians will go 'round and 'round in an intellectually and ethically bankrupt state until one person goes over the edge and pancakes, because whatever politician A does to gain an advantage in anyway, politician B will match that?
Fixed.
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So you're saying that the two pilots will go 'round and 'round in a bankrupt E state until one person goes over the edge and pancakes, because whatever pilot A does to gain an advantage in anyway, pilot B will match that?
As in my 17 minute stallfight example yes, that can very well happen. If both, in an E bankrupt state, ride the edge perfectly in the exact same plane/load they will absolutely by definition remain in a stalemate indefinitely. From there only two things can break the stalemate. Either one plane "gets off the edge", meaning he tries to not ride it as hard either attempting to dredge up a bit of E or for a fear of pancaking then gives up angular advantage/lead for a shot to the one that is still riding it fully. Or, one of the pilots "loses the edge" stalls out and pancakes.
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Zazen, if you're in true stalemate then by definition your heading angle is either 180 or 0 and aspect angle of 90 degrees. At stall speed it would take more than a few turns to gain angles for a shot.
Practical example of E management in stall fight would be stinky lufbery. You could stick to max turn possible and hope you ride the edge better and catch up, or loosen up a bit, gain speed and right before being shot go into high yoyo, which other guy couldn't follow up.
There are more examples (think of rolling scissors).
In any case it comes down to the same choice Murdr described earlier. It's up to the pilot and situation (here comes SA) when he'd go for E or angles advantage. It is in no way speed dependent and not only it is possible to manage E at stall speeds, it is very important to do so.
It is nearly impossible to describe difference between E and angles fight with pure ACM terminology anyways, hence I really don't categorize them as such. It comes more down to how you approach that particular fight you're in, i.e. aggressiveness and resulting risk.
And as Murdr mentioned, good pilots will constantly adapt/change depending on how the fight is progressing. They're not "style dependant".
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Zazen, if you're in true stalemate then by definition your heading angle is either 180 or 0 and aspect angle of 90 degrees. At stall speed it would take more than a few turns to gain angles for a shot.
Why? A stallfight stalemate could occur if I am just 1 degree shy of getting lead on someone for a shot. We could go 5 million turns, if neither make a mistake I will never "catch-up" the one degree I need to pop him...
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Why? A stallfight stalemate could occur if I am just 1 degree shy of getting lead on someone for a shot. We could go 5 million turns, if neither make a mistake I will never "catch-up" the one degree I need to pop him...
If you're only 1 degree shy, you have significant angles advantage and even if E states are the same, you have many options on how to utilize that angles advantage and/or convert some into E advantage.
It is by no means a stalemate.
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If you're only 1 degree shy, you have significant angles advantage and even if E states are the same, you have many options on how to utilize that angles advantage and/or convert some into E advantage.
It is by no means a stalemate.
Umm, ever hear the saying, "Miss by an inch, miss by a mile"? Wether you are 1 degree away from pulling lead or 180 degrees, the result is the same. The only difference is catching up 1 degree only requires he make a tiny mistake, catching up 180 degrees requires he make a proportionately larger mistake or a succession of smaller ones that add up.
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In theory i agree with that zazen, but in practice the situation is close to impossible. There is no way that two pilots can continue to fly exactly the same for 5 million turns thus creating your stalemate, it just will not happen. It would be unlikely that two pilots, even of equal skill level, could manage to replicate each others moves precisely beyond 5 turns.
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In theory i agree with that zazen, but in practice the situation is close to impossible. There is no way that two pilots can continue to fly exactly the same for 5 million turns thus creating your stalemate, it just will not happen. It would be unlikely that two pilots, even of equal skill level, could manage to replicate each others moves precisely beyond 5 turns.
I did it for 17 minutes once, as I described earlier. I've had it happen many times for over 5 minutes. I never thought to count the number of complete 360 revolutions we had in the 17 minute one, but it had to be 75 or more I would guess...Part of the reason I pancaked was my arm was sore as hell... :lol
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Umm, ever hear the saying, "Miss by an inch, miss by a mile"? Wether you are 1 degree away from pulling lead or 180 degrees, the result is the same. The only difference is catching up 1 degree only requires he make a tiny mistake, catching up 180 degrees requires he make a proportionately larger mistake or a succession of smaller ones that add up.
Switch from 2D to 3D. Making mistakes (or not) is only one part of equation. E management which you claim is not needed is part of it as well. So are ACM and SA, gunnery, stick control smoothness, creativity, aggressiveness and so on.
It's a skill set if you want to call it that way and applies to all fights in all arenas. How much of each and relation among them varies though.
As Batfink says there are not two AH pilots to be completely matched in all categories. Therefore, most of the times one always wins.
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Switch from 2D to 3D.
We're talking stallfights on the deck, those are almost 100% in the horizontal.
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I did it for 17 minutes once, as I described earlier. I've had it happen many times for over 5 minutes. I never thought to count the number of complete 360 revolutions we had in the 17 minute one, but it had to be 75 or more I would guess...Part of the reason I pancaked was my arm was sore as hell... :lol
two possible reasons why.
1: you both flew exactly the same turns with the same throttle, control input and turn radius through out the 17 mins. This opponent and you had a very rare and wonderfull fight becuase you are almost completely alike in style and aircraft.
2: that you both let the plane type determine the edge rather than individual style or risk commanding a quicker conclusion.
either way a long fight closely matched can be some of the best fun.
edit: a 3rd option i can see:
think of it like tennis. a very close match on deuce can swing advantage one way or the other for an extended time if both players score alternate points. You can win an inch and next turn lose an inch repeatedly. This is more likely than both parties flying exactly the same.
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We're talking stallfights on the deck, those are almost 100% in the horizontal.
That's where you are very wrong.
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two possible reasons why.
1: you both flew exactly the same turns with the same throttle, control input and turn radius through out the 17 mins. This opponent and you had a very rare and wonderfull fight becuase you are almost completely alike in style and aircraft.
2: that you both let the plane type determine the edge rather than individual style or risk commanding a quicker conclusion.
either way a long fight closely matched can be some of the best fun.
edit: a 3rd option i can see:
think of it like tennis. a very close match on deuce can swing advantage one way or the other for an extended time if both players score alternate points. You can win an inch and next turn lose an inch repeatedly. This is more likely than both parties flying exactly the same.
It's probably a combination of all three to varying degrees in most situations. That's why most duels don't last more than 2-3 turns unless the pilots are equally skilled. If either one exploits the merge, the other blows the merge or there is a large skill disparity that could all result in an immediate E/Angle advantage. The only way that scenario could possibly result in anything vaguely resembling a stallfight is if the one with more E blows it or has the most incredibly atrocious gunnery imaginable.
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That's where you are very wrong.
Ok..Have a nice day! :huh
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Ok..Have a nice day! :huh
2bighorn is right. The usual winner of a flaps-out stall fights is the guy who best manages his E and converts it into the vertical more effectively. E-management at 130 mph is far more critical than it is at 400 mph. Conserving E is literally an art form. Easy on the controls, don't load the airframe needlessly, flaps management, throttle management, careful use of rudder and so on are all key elements. Getting too far behind the power curve usually means death by guns or an auger.
I've fought long, arduous duels where speeds hovered around 150 mph or less and there wasn't a single horizontal turn to be seen. Your better duelists will not be doing much maneuvering horizontal.
My regards,
Widewing
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he is right Zaz im sorry. Stall fights on the deck are about the furthest thing away from keeping it horizontal imaginable.
A well flown stall fight would look abstract from the side profile, something like this or something much different, but nothing purely horizontal about it.
something like this:
(http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/stallfight.JPG)
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he is right Zaz im sorry. Stall fights on the deck are about the furthest thing away from keeping it horizontal imaginable.
A well flown stall fight would look abstract from the side profile, something like this or something much different, but nothing purely horizontal about it.
something like this:
(http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/stallfight.JPG)
That pic looks like a combo of vertical/rolling scissors fight to me. I wouldn't consider a fight a stallfight just because at the top of a scissor you are at/close to stall speed. A stall fight is when you are both turning as tightly as possible "riding the edge" practically all the time, not just at the peaks and valleys of a sequence of moves, that's more angles fighting which would necessarily have some E fighting component.
And to Widewing. I consider rudder authority, throttle control, loading etc all part of "riding the edge". I suppose we could pick apart those components and consider them separate aspects, but it's just part of "flying on the edge". Any true stallfight I've ever seen the noses are so heavy from E deprivation that neither plane can pull its nose up more than a few degrees off the horizon making it almost purely horizontal. I guess we just have a different idea of what a real stallfight is.
It's almost like you are treating Angles fight and Stall fight as if they are synonymous. I just leafed through Shaw's, they don't sound or look synonymous to me...
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perhaps then terminology should best be applied from our community alone, because unless i am mistaken most people would consider a stall fight an advanced form of rolling scissors where the loops are divded with induced stall turns.
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perhaps then terminology should best be applied from our community alone, because unless i am mistaken most people would consider a stall fight and advanced form of rolling scissors where the loops are divded with induced stall turns.
That's Angles fighting. Do you own a copy of Shaw's? it defines them...
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no i never studied dogfighting outside of the arena here. i can see why you would call that stall fighting and you are correct, it is riding the edge of the stall whilst maintaining the most effective flat turn to within a few degrees. Im sure the correct term for that specific type of stalemate or slow win is a luftberry.
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no i never studied dogfighting outside of the arena here. i can see why you would call that stall fighting and you are correct, it is riding the edge of the stall whilst maintaining the most effective flat turn to within a few degrees. Im sure the correct term for that specific type of stalemate or slow win is a luftberry.
Yea that's it, you got it. Angles fighting is the expenditure of energy to create an angle even if it means a net loss of energy. Energy fighting is the sacrifice of angle to create/equalize/negate an energy advantage. So, your rolling/vertical scissors example is really a microcosm of both E fighting and Angles fighting depending on which phase of it you look at in isolation. It's definitely no where near stall fighting.
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Zazen, I was just looking into the book. I really can't find where Shaw defines stall fighting as flat horizontal turns. Could you help me with page reference?
While we are at it I have found reference to unloading the Gs when taking the shots. Chapter "Fighter Weapons" page 19 (second paragraph, quotations not counted).
Meanwhile you can read about how community defined stall fighting (from AW days):
http://www.netaces.org/stall-1/stall-1.htm
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Meanwhile you can read about how community defined stall fighting (from AW days):
http://www.netaces.org/stall-1/stall-1.htm
To me, that's how I've always defined stall fighting.
As for stall fighting being a purely horizontal technique, an example of a stall fighting manuever that can be used in a P-38 is the oft mentioned 'Cloverleaf'. Those are a series of vertical stall turns the P-38 performs, not horizontal.
ack-ack
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Your all right to some degree. Zazen is discussing the fight that degenerates into a horizontal lufbery where neither plane can gain a quick advantage. I've been in plenty of these and some have gone on so long I was getting bored (5-10 minutes isn't unusual). In this fight, the first guy to auger or the first guy to try to break out of it dies.
I've also been in plenty of stall fights with vertical and rolling elements. These are much more fun but also very difficult to gain an angular advantage due to the low energy states. Even in the downward portions you may not gain E as you're continually trading it to gain angles. The most difficult parts of these fights is getting enough E on the upswing to avoid a stall at the top. In these fights, if not lost by angles, the loser usually stalls over the top or doesn't have enough room to pull up at the bottom. In either case it results in an auger.
The common element in both these fights is that you're riding the edge of stability in your plane the entire time and that is, in my opinion, the definition of a stall fight.
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Yea that's it, you got it. Angles fighting is the expenditure of energy to create an angle even if it means a net loss of energy. Energy fighting is the sacrifice of angle to create/equalize/negate an energy advantage. So, your rolling/vertical scissors example is really a microcosm of both E fighting and Angles fighting depending on which phase of it you look at in isolation. It's definitely no where near stall fighting.
Sure my diagram does not show every aspect of stall fighting, on the same note the flat turn style of turn fighting is using even less components of dogfighting as a whole and still being classed as a form of stall fighting. What my diagram does show is a far btter use of a stall in a fight, using the stall to tighten turns far past the possible angle of a flat horizontal turn. This is just as much more of an advanced vision of what the stall can do for angles fighting then a flat turn. Bighorn once explained to me that there is no such thing as being an 'E fighter' or 'Turn fighter' etc...every turn we make is some combination of many aspect of flight in general, indeed wise words. Just like when Slapshot told me that some people are plane dependant while others worry about who is flying it not what is being flown. Stall fighting in the horizontal plane is a near suicide move vs someone using vertical and horizontal elements.
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Meanwhile you can read about how community defined stall fighting (from AW days):
http://www.netaces.org/stall-1/stall-1.htm
Read the first paragraph where he gives his definition. That's an incredibly loose definition of stall fighing, "Stallfighting is any fight where you are turning close to each other" (paraphrased). That could mean almost anything you could possibly imagine... I've read that before, he mentions everything under the sun, it's just as much about E/Angles fighting as anything else. He only actually mentions the word stalling once in the entire dialogue...For example of how loose that is, I'll go a turn or three after I bounce someone where I chop throttle and am in tight so he can't recover position or escape, by Shaky's loosy-goosy definition I'm "stallfighting", but I'm no where close to stallspeed, neither is the guy I'm killing...I'm angles fighting, exchanging my energy for angles resulting in a net loss of E. Referring to any maneuver sequence that includes a tight turn as a stallfight makes the term meaningless.
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Your all right to some degree. Zazen is discussing the fight that degenerates into a horizontal lufbery where neither plane can gain a quick advantage. I've been in plenty of these and some have gone on so long I was getting bored (5-10 minutes isn't unusual). In this fight, the first guy to auger or the first guy to try to break out of it dies.
Yes, that's a pure stallfight. You can't get E because if you try your goose is cooked.
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To me, that's how I've always defined stall fighting.
As for stall fighting being a purely horizontal technique, an example of a stall fighting manuever that can be used in a P-38 is the oft mentioned 'Cloverleaf'. Those are a series of vertical stall turns the P-38 performs, not horizontal.
ack-ack
Yea, I always loved watching +mir do that in AW. The 38's incredible maneuvering flaps allow it to get it's nose up even at crazy slow speeds. You can't do that in any other plane that I can think of.
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but I'm no where close to stallspeed, neither is the guy I'm killing...
Maybe that's why we run in circles. Stall fighting is not defined with speed alone, but also AoA, etc. If you want you can ride stall at just about any speed where you're not limited by pilot (blackout/redout)
I'm angles fighting, exchanging my energy for angles resulting in a net loss of E. Referring to any maneuver sequence that includes a tight turn as a stallfight makes the term meaningless.
Perhaps. To me is just another term. We can define it as angles fighting, perhaps a subset of angles fighting or we can create new definition as you did it for yourself. That doesn't mean it will be accepted by community at large.
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Maybe that's why we run in circles. Stall fighting is not defined with speed alone, but also AoA, etc. If you want you can ride stall at just about any speed where you're not limited by pilot (blackout/redout)
Perhaps. To me is just another term. We can define it as angles fighting, perhaps a subset of angles fighting or we can create new definition as you did it for yourself. That doesn't mean it will be accepted by community at large.
We're just talking semantics here. What you call Stallfighting I call Angles Fighting. You can call it a Fat Lady's Fart for all care so long as we realize that we're talking about two essentially different things. Batfink figured that out a few posts ago. If the only qualification you have for Stallfighting is that one or both planes have to at some point in a sequence of maneuvers get at or near stall speed then when I rope someone, stalling him out then looping over the top, throwing flaps out and stalling over myself with gravity assist to blow him away, I'm Stallfighting. That's just plain silly...
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Batfink figured that out a few posts ago.
He also figured that it already has a name. Lufbery. And to be blunt only beginners or those who don't have a clue about stall fighting would consider lufbery as the only form of stall fighting.
If the only qualification you have for Stallfighting is that one or both planes have to at some point in a sequence of maneuvers get at or near stall speed then when I rope someone, stalling him out and loop over the top, throw flaps out and stall over myself with gravity assist to blow him away, I'm Stallfighting.
At that point and for that short moment yes.
That's just plain silly..
No, what's silly is you trying to categorize and over analyze just about everything.
E fighting and angles fighting, as defined, both have same elements, both use same BFMs, have same goals. The difference is in approach. One gives more weight to certain aspects than other and vice versa.
Take a look at the top and well rounded pilots, like Murdr, TC, Batfink, WW, Akak (to name just a few taking part in this thread).
For example TC and Murdr would gravitate towards E fighting, but when circumstances are right they'd switch to angles pursuit in a heart bit.
Bat is more of an angles fighter, yet he would take every E advantage and use it well if given opportunity. Same for WW and Akak.
You can sort anything into your boxes as you wish, but on the end, you're just limiting yourself.
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E fighting and angles fighting, as defined, both have same elements, both use same BFMs, have same goals. The difference is in approach. One gives more weight to certain aspects than other and vice versa.
Woohoo! You finally got it! Congratulations! It was like mining for diamonds in mud but you finally got there! :rock
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Finally? We are repeating like parrots through 10+ pages.
Don't forget, putting certain aspect behind of another due to tactics does not decrease its importance (hint: E).
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Oh, by the way did you check the stall limiter thing, was it still on by default?
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Oh, by the way did you check the stall limiter thing, was it still on by default?
No, it was off. I guess it has more to do with my approach. But nothing what little bit of practice couldn't fix, eh?
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No, it was off. I guess it has more to do with my approach. But nothing what little bit of practice couldn't fix, eh?
You should let people look at your films, that helped me a alot in the past. It's hard to be objective about your own stuff, other people can watch it and see things you would never even notice or think twice about. It's kind of like trying to proof-read your own essays, someone else doing it is always better.
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You should let people look at your films, that helped me a alot in the past. It's hard to be objective about your own stuff, other people can watch it and see things you would never even notice or think twice about. It's kind of like trying to proof-read your own essays, someone else doing it is always better.
Absolutely right, I made the mistake of asking in game for "help" on flying a Me-109 and before reading the BBS on who actually flown it "regular" I got some kid who flew it for 2 weeks and sent me a bunch of films on how "he" flew it and I never won a fight 1 on 1 in the main arena. However after a few months flying the me-109 I regularly post films to ask people how I flew reguardless if they flew a 109 or not and I get what I am looking for, the answer to the common question "How Can I improve myself". Zazen's answer is correct - you will hear from some whose tactics agree and others who say "I would never do that" just remember you are asking a question that can be answered in a variety of ways - just take the information in and use it the best you can :aok
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You should let people look at your films, that helped me a alot in the past. It's hard to be objective about your own stuff, other people can watch it and see things you would never even notice or think twice about. It's kind of like trying to proof-read your own essays, someone else doing it is always better.
At the risk of sounding like an ankle humper, I'll just say this about bighorn due to all of the hard work he's put in over the years at making himself the top notch pilot he is...
There's a very, very small number of people who could actually offer suggestions on how he could improve (no I'm not one of them, calm down people). Why fix what's broken?
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At the risk of sounding like an ankle humper, I'll just say this about bighorn due to all of the hard work he's put in over the years at making himself the top notch pilot he is...
There's a very, very small number of people who could actually offer suggestions on how he could improve (no I'm not one of them, calm down people). Why fix what's broken?
I'm just speaking for anyone generally. I have no clue who Bighorn is in the game, when he didn't even know if he had the stall limiter on/off I assumed he was fairly new. Everyone could improve probably though, so saying he's too good for someone to help improve is probably incorrect. Letting someone else watch your films is a great way to do that. I remember the first time I did that. I am right handed and intuitively knew turning left, into my body, would be easier, but never really thought much about it. Someone watched some of my films once and showed me that anytime I turned right I would pull off the angle, then over-compensate too much, increase the loading and burn E unnecessarily...Had someone not brought that to my conscious attention I never would have thought twice about it or been able to correct it.
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Absolutely right, I made the mistake of asking in game for "help" on flying a Me-109 and before reading the BBS on who actually flown it "regular" I got some kid who flew it for 2 weeks and sent me a bunch of films on how "he" flew it and I never won a fight 1 on 1 in the main arena. However after a few months flying the me-109 I regularly post films to ask people how I flew reguardless if they flew a 109 or not and I get what I am looking for, the answer to the common question "How Can I improve myself". Zazen's answer is correct - you will hear from some whose tactics agree and others who say "I would never do that" just remember you are asking a question that can be answered in a variety of ways - just take the information in and use it the best you can :aok
Exactly there are practically as many perspectives as there are people. The irony is the most valuable perspectives I ever get are from new players. Unlike those that have been playing forever they don't "label" things or compartmentalize experience as much as we do, they don't have a preset concept of anything really. So, their observations, perspective and reactions to things are in a way more pure and therefore insightful.
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I have no clue who Bighorn is in the game
2Bighorn = Barbossa
I'd put him in the top ten furballers in AH.
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2Bighorn = Barbossa
Still doesn't help me...Never heard of him..He a shade with a former name? He could be Levi's new CPID for all I know, although he doesn't write like Levi...
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Just go to the DA with him. He's been around a long time but normally keeps quiet.
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Just go to the DA with him. He's been around a long time but normally keeps quiet.
Is he ONLY in the DA? I tried to find him in the last tour in any arena, there's no one named Barbossa on there...Is that the correct in-game spelling?
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He may be just taking a break. I'm sure he'll contact you when he reads these last few posts.
P.S. Yes, the only time I've ever seen him is in the DA.
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Did he change his name back to Barbossa? Last time I saw him he was "Texture".
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Still doesn't help me...Never heard of him..He a shade with a former name? He could be Levi's new CPID for all I know, although he doesn't write like Levi...
He is not Leviathn.
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He is not Leviathn.
that he isnt, his ingame name is texture but he takes frequent breaks and changes names alot, hes good people and if you make an arrongment with him hell be there.
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Still doesn't help me...Never heard of him..He a shade with a former name? He could be Levi's new CPID for all I know, although he doesn't write like Levi...
ROFL, Zaz, .......2bighorn/barbossa/texture and many many other names has been around awhile, and he most frequents only the TA and DA..........
I was gonna comment on the stall Limiter thing.I just figured he was pulling your chain for a bit there.......to be honest I thought both of you was pulling each other's chains for about 2 or 3 pages of this thread.....
the reason you 2 probably never run across each other is the simple fact you both fly in different arenas and the TA and DA does not have no score keeping / stats posted like the other arenas ( EA / MA / LWA / AvsA )
Barbossa/2bighorn has taught and helped many an AH flyer in past 3 or 4 years.....
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I thought I heard you talking about 2Bighorn/Barbosa at KOTH the other night TC, and that wasn't his in game name. Thought I overheard you saying that its Jackspar0 or somthing in that name, unless I'm mistaken.
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I thought I heard you talking about 2Bighorn/Barbosa at KOTH the other night TC, and that wasn't his in game name. Thought I overheard you saying that its Jackspar0 or somthing in that name, unless I'm mistaken.
yep your mistaken.I was telling Dogg "That is Captian Jack Sparrow, to you, Savy? "
I do not recall 2bighorn attending any koth's in past couple year or year or 2
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to be honest I thought both of you was pulling each other's chains for about 2 or 3 pages of this thread.....
Yeah TC. That was what I was thinking, since Zazen took part in 2 DFC nights and we even fought each other.
I do not recall 2bighorn attending any koth's in past couple year or year or 2
Correct. I think last time I flew few rounds was in May 2006.
But to stay on topic (well, third or fourth in this thread), yes, films and film viewer are one of the best learning tools. If ever, HTC adds control indicators it'll be nearly perfect.
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I’m coming into this thread a little late, unfortunately, and I’d like to clarify some of the confusion in terminology that I’ve noticed.
But, progressively, as a duel wears on and E is exhausted as it is converted to angles there's a point it becomes a pure stallfight, then there is no E to manage, you no longer have the E needed to create angles alone.
Firstly, the terminology you are using in this quote is misleading. When you say “there's a point it becomes a pure stallfight, then there is no E to manage” there are two issues with that statement, the first is that there is never “no E to manage” and I’ll explain that later, the second is your interpretation of the term a “pure stallfight”. The reason is that any manoeuvring close to the edge of an accelerated stall can be referred to as stall fighting, it is a fairly explicit term, if you are riding the edge of the stall, regardless of your speed or energy state, you are stall fighting. So, stall fighting can begin soon after an aircraft’s speed falls below corner velocity when the pilot can hold it on the edge of the stall without blacking out, and continue until the aircraft is at ground level and at the lowest speed at which it can sustain a level turn.
Any true stallfight I've ever seen the noses are so heavy from E deprivation that neither plane can pull its nose up more than a few degrees off the horizon making it almost purely horizontal.
Again, it is possible to stall fight once an aircraft gets below corner velocity, and for most aircraft that still means relatively high speed and high energy. However, even when some aircraft are much slower than that, at the low energy end of a "true stallfight" where they should be maintaining their best sustained turn, they often still have enough energy to pull into the vertical and either loop (generally not tactically sound) or at least execute a high yo-yo, a maneuver that can clinch that type of fight. You seem to be applying the term "true stallfight" to an aircraft on the back of the power curve, at a speed below the best sustained turn rate, a place good pilots avoid like the plague. It isn’t angles fighting, because turn rate is seriously degraded and it isn’t energy fighting. Once you are on the back of the power curve, you are already beyond the fairly wide region in the envelope where stall fighting is possible.
It's almost like you are treating Angles fight and Stall fight as if they are synonymous. I just leafed through Shaw's, they don't sound or look synonymous to me...
I’m not sure how it is possible to conclude that a stall fight “don’t sound or look synonymous” with angles fighting in Shaw's book, particularly when he doesn't refer to stall fighting? Do you know why he doesn’t?
It can be said that anyone stall fighting is, at least during the time that they are riding the stall, in an angles fight, because in order to be on the edge of the stall and thus stall fighting, they will actually be maximising their turn rate at the cost of high negative Ps and energy depletion… Thus angles fighting. One alternative would be to ease back from the stall, turn at a slightly lower rate, and use less energy, and therefore, at least for as long as that situation persists, be energy fighting. However, it isn’t that simple, it is also possible for both aircraft in an engagement to be stall fighting, while one is flying an angles fight, the other an energy fight. Even though they are both staying on the edge of the stall the whole time, it is possible for one pilot to make decisive energy gains. This is an often misunderstood truth that causes some confusion with pilots who don’t understand how to manage their energy in a stall fight.
Hope that helps.
Badboy
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. It isn’t angles fighting, because turn rate is seriously degraded and it isn’t energy fighting. Once you are on the back of the power curve, you are already beyond the fairly wide region in the envelope where stall fighting is possible.
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Hope that helps.
Badboy
That's exactly what I am talking about, that's stallfighting in the pure sense of it. Fighting at or near the corner speed is angles fighting because you still have the option, however imprudent, to convert E to angles and back again, even if it means getting below your corner speed. In my opinion, if you call any fight where at some point you're at or near stall speed or ideal corner speed a stallfight, you're practically involving absolutely anything other than flying straight and level or a pure high-speed pass. As in my Rope a Dope example. If you call me roping someone who stalls out and I either stall out at the top or close to it and pop him a stallfight, that's incredibly misleading. I would consider that energy fighting even though at one point we were in tight and one or both of as stalled or at least wallowed well below the corner speed. To put it another way a Pony's ideal corner speed is about ~275-300? You're telling my if I turn it to shoot at a plane at or below that speed I am stallfighting? 150 mph above stall speed? If that's the case I am ALWAYS stallfighting...;)
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ROFL, Zaz, .......2bighorn/barbossa/texture and many many other names has been around awhile, and he most frequents only the TA and DA..........
Well that explains a lot...He got into this because of my post saying 1 vs 1 Co-Alt Co-E duels exercise only a partial portion of the skill-set needed to be successful in the MA. If he only every flies in the DA I could see how that might get him a bit defensive...Hehe
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ROFL, Zaz, .......2bighorn/barbossa/texture and many many other names has been around awhile, and he most frequents only the TA and DA..........
I was gonna comment on the stall Limiter thing.I just figured he was pulling your chain for a bit there.......to be honest I thought both of you was pulling each other's chains for about 2 or 3 pages of this thread.....
the reason you 2 probably never run across each other is the simple fact you both fly in different arenas and the TA and DA does not have no score keeping / stats posted like the other arenas ( EA / MA / LWA / AvsA )
Barbossa/2bighorn has taught and helped many an AH flyer in past 3 or 4 years.....
Well that explains a lot...He got into this because of my post saying 1 vs 1 Co-Alt Co-E duels exercise only a partial portion of the skill-sets needed to be really successful in the chaotic furballs of the MA. If he only every flies in the DA I could see how that might get him a bit defensive...Hehe
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Yeah TC. That was what I was thinking, since Zazen took part in 2 DFC nights and we even fought each other.
Really? What was your name then? It's none of my business but out of curiosity why do you change your name so much?
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That's exactly what I am talking about, that's stallfighting in the pure sense of it.
No, that's not what Badboy is saying. At that point all what you do is stalling. Stall fighting is more than that.
Well that explains a lot...He got into this because of my post saying 1 vs 1 Co-Alt Co-E duels exercise only a partial portion of the skill-set needed to be successful in the MA. If he only every flies in the DA I could see how that might get him a bit defensive...Hehe
I do venture in other arenas as well. I just prefer some over the others. I wasn't defensive either. I was pointing out your false statements.
If you want us to disapprove, you need valid arguments and/or you prove it in practice.
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I was gonna comment on the stall Limiter thing.I just figured he was pulling your chain for a bit there.......to be honest I thought both of you was pulling each other's chains for about 2 or 3 pages of this thread.....
Actually, I haven't been pulling anyone's chain. I'm really, honestly interested in other's opinions and perspectives on these issues. I'm just a naturally curious person. The more viewpoints I can integrate into my thinking the more interesting and multifaceted air combat inwardly becomes to me.
I do however think it's more than a bit cheesy to misrepresent yourself as something your not in order to attempt to bait then argue using quotes truncated for the maximum effect of taking things out of context...;)
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No, that's not what Badboy is saying. At that point all what you do is stalling. Stall fighting is more than that.
I do venture in other arenas as well. I just prefer some over the others. I wasn't defensive either. I was pointing out your false statements.
If you want us to disapprove, you need valid arguments and/or you prove it in practice.
You're right, it is more than that, it's not stallfighting, it's angles and/or E fighting in some combination. In your examples, you can be stallfighting and E fighting and Angles fighting during the same single maneuver. That's no different than looking at a severed leg and saying, "That's not a LEG! that's some muscle cells, some tendons, a lot of skin cells, cartilage, bone etc. How can you possibly call that a leg!"...
The point being, not only are the definitions you have so broad they could mean almost anything, but you're then applying them to snapshots of a single 1 second phase of a maneuver and saying because of this single second phase this is an XXXX fight. My perspective is that of methodology. Of course every E fight has some angles or stallfighting components to it, it has to. If it didn't you'd never get an angle for a shot and kill the guy, the same is true of any technique. But, it doesn't change the fact that I was really just practicing the E fighting methodology and the other stuff was just incidental to that. Just in the same way as picking apart the components of a leg in isolation doesn't make the leg any less of a leg...Just because a leg has a bone in it, doesn't mean it's just a bone, it's still a leg...
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I do however think it's more than a bit cheesy to misrepresent yourself as something your not in order to attempt to bait
What did you expect me to do after you've said I must be doing something fundamentally wrong, or after your stall limiter comment?
My flying wasn't up for discussion, nor was yours. Our skills (or lack of it) won't change the fundamentals of air combat.
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I'm just speaking for anyone generally. I have no clue who Bighorn is in the game, when he didn't even know if he had the stall limiter on/off I assumed he was fairly new. Everyone could improve probably though, so saying he's too good for someone to help improve is probably incorrect. Letting someone else watch your films is a great way to do that. I remember the first time I did that. I am right handed and intuitively knew turning left, into my body, would be easier, but never really thought much about it. Someone watched some of my films once and showed me that anytime I turned right I would pull off the angle, then over-compensate too much, increase the loading and burn E unnecessarily...Had someone not brought that to my conscious attention I never would have thought twice about it or been able to correct it.
Show me where I said that he was "too good for someone to help improve" him. Please don't put words in my mouth. What I said was that there is a very small number of people who could actually offer suggestions to bighorn that would actually improve his game.
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What did you expect me to do after you've said I must be doing something fundamentally wrong, or after your stall limiter comment?
My flying wasn't up for discussion, nor was yours. Our skills (or lack of it) won't change the fundamentals of air combat.
Umm, you need to go back and read dude. I only said that after you said everytime you missed a shot or stallfought you immediately died...Then when I asked why that is you really didn't seem to know exactly, so I suggested maybe you're doing something wrong if missing a shot or getting slow with someone equated to instant death for you and have someone look at some of your films for advice. I had no clue you were a permanent name switching DA King trying to bait me. I actually still have no clue who you are, nor do I really care. I was actually thinking you were a new player and was for the life of me trying to figure out why in the world missing a shot or getting into a stallfight would automatically equate to instant death...I had run out of ideas to help you with this conundrum so offered what little advice I had left. I was just trying to help what I assumed was a relatively new player by your comments to that point and the fact I didn't recognize your name...Had I known you're just someone getting their rocks off by playing the "stooge", I would have just told you to kiss my hairy, white arse and have been done with you right then and there, which is exactly what I am doing right here... ;)
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Show me where I said that he was "too good for someone to help improve" him. Please don't put words in my mouth. What I said was that there is a very small number of people who could actually offer suggestions to bighorn that would actually improve his game.
Wow Donkey, chill buddy, since you are being anal retentive and splitting hairs here, let's have an English lesson. What I said was, "Everyone could improve probably though, so saying he's too good for someone to help improve is probably incorrect. I did not say he's too good for ANYONE to help improve, I said SOMEONE. Which means it doesn't take a better stick than you to look at a film and see something you may have missed. In my left turn/right turn example, the person who watched that film and noticed that mistake was not nearly as good as I am (I know, hard to believe anyone sucks worse than me, but it's true). That is why I said SOMEONE not anyone. You were implying that only a person better than this Bighorn dude could possibly look at a film and have some possibly helpful insights, stating there are very, very few people who could...That's just pure crap right there...I film people constantly, I always see people far better than me making mistakes and usually the same easily corrected mistakes over and over and over..
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Umm, you need to go back and read dude. I only said that after you said anytime you miss a shot or stallfight you immediately died...Then when I asked why that is you really didn't seem to know, so I suggested maybe you're doing something wrong if missing a shot or getting slow with someone equated to instant death for you and have someone look at some of your films for advice. I had no clue you were a permanent name switching DA King trying to bait me. I actually still have no clue who you are nor do I really care. I was actually thinking you were a new player and was for the life of me trying to figure out why in the world missing a shot or getting into a stallfight would equate to instant death...I was just trying to help what I assumed was a new player by your comments to that point and the fact I didn't recognize your name...
You can back pedal as much as you want. It doesn't matter who I am, what I do, or where and how I fly.
It all started with your reply to Widewing and your statements.
I'll list them here to refresh your memory:
Here's some examples that distinguish a duelling engagement from a MA flight.
There is no SA required.
There is no consideration needed for the careful balancing of the maximization of the strengths of one aircraft vs. the weaknesses of another.
There is very little consideration for E management required.
There is no need for cooperative tactics and communication.
There is no consideration required for ammunition conservation making good aim relatively unimportant as you can hose spray around and hope for lucky hits.
There is no consideration required for the adjustment of your flying to properly compensate for the state of your changing fuel-load.
There is no consideration for the exploitation of an initial energy advantage or negating an intial energy disadvantage.
I replied to those. Since your ego won't allow you being wrong, you went as far as redefining what widely accepted terminology means.
You even said I'm anal retentive for which I apologized to you in PM.
There really is no point arguing with you. The only reason why I discussed topic for so long is the fact that this is 'Help and Training' forum and I didn't want new players not familiar with air combat get wrong ideas.
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It doesn't matter who I am, what I do, or where and how I fly.
Have fun, thank you for playing Aces High! :aok
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That's exactly what I am talking about, that's stallfighting in the pure sense of it.
That may be what you are talking about but as I previously explained, you are stall fighting when ever you are riding the edge of the envelope close to the stall, there is no "pure sense of it" you either are or you aren't. You seem to be trying to confine the term to an extreme point on what is a fairly wide region of the envelope. That could be why there is so many crossed wires in this thread.
Fighting at or near the corner speed is angles fighting because you still have the option, however imprudent, to convert E to angles and back again, even if it means getting below your corner speed.
Nope, fighting at or near corner speed could just as easily be angles or energy fighting, it has little to do with what speed you are at, however the decision to do one or the other would depend on a lot of factors including relative speed.
In my opinion, if you call any fight where at some point you're at or near stall speed or ideal corner speed a stallfight, you're practically involving absolutely anything other than flying straight and level or a pure high-speed pass.
Nope, and firstly the actual speed is irrelevant, and the quote above sounds as though you think that if you aren't on the edge of the stall, and thus stall fighting, then you must be "flying straight and level or a pure high-speed pass" but you are missing the huge region of the envelope in between. For instance, in a particular aircraft it may be that at 195mph it stalls at 5g, if you are flying close to 5g at that speed you are stall fighting, if you level off and fly at 1g you are flying straight and level, but what happens if you are at 195mph and fly at only 4g? You aren't stall fighting, and you aren't flying straight and level, there is a large region of the envelope in between you can't simply ignore it.
To put it another way a Pony's ideal corner speed is about ~275-300? You're telling my if I turn it to shoot at a plane at or below that speed I am stallfighting? 150 mph above stall speed? If that's the case I am ALWAYS stallfighting...;).
Ok, I can see two further misunderstandings in that quote. The last time I checked the corner velocity of the P-51D, clean, with 25% fuel at sea level was 256mph, now if you turn your aircraft to shoot at another, and if you are "at or below that speed" makes no difference to whether you are stall fighting or not. If you are below corner speed, you do have the option to stall fight, if you are above corner speed you don't. Whether you are stall fighting or not at that point depends on how much G you pull. If you are at corner speed and you pull close to 6g you will be stall fighting, but you could be at that same speed and choose to pull less than 6g, and you wouldn't be stall fighting.
The second misunderstanding is the fact that you seem to refer to the corner velocity as being above stall speed, "150 mph above stall speed?" it isn't, corner velocity is also at the stall speed, the 6g stall speed. It is possible to stall the aircraft at all speeds between corner velocity all the way down, that doesn't mean that if you are flying at those speeds you are automatically stall fighting, you are only stall fighting if you pull enough G to get close to the stall (the edge of the envelope) at that speed. What ever speed you are at, if you pull less G than that required to reach the edge of the envelope, you are not stall fighting.
Hope that helps.
Badboy
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The second misunderstanding is the fact that you seem to refer to the corner velocity as being above stall speed, "150 mph above stall speed?" it isn't, corner velocity is also at the stall speed, the 6g stall speed. It is possible to stall the aircraft at all speeds between corner velocity all the way down, that doesn't mean that if you are flying at those speeds you are automatically stall fighting, you are only stall fighting if you pull enough G to get close to the stall (the edge of the envelope) at that speed. What ever speed you are at, if you pull less G than that required to reach the edge of the envelope, you are not stall fighting.
Hope that helps.
Badboy
Ok, let me get this straight, if I blow through at 500 mph and pull 6 G's to come back around for another pass I am stallfighting according to your definition?
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yep your mistaken.I was telling Dogg "That is Captian Jack Sparrow, to you, Savy? "
I do not recall 2bighorn attending any koth's in past couple year or year or 2
hehehe, I was wrong. I do know who Barbosa is now though, been fighting him for a couple of days now. <S>
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Ok, let me get this straight, if I blow through at 500 mph and pull 6 G's to come back around for another pass I am stallfighting according to your definition?
If you do that, you are neither on the stall line (lift limit line in the figure below) or pulling a sustainable turn in terms of energy loss.
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/Corner.jpg)
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If you do that, you are neither on the stall line (lift limit line in the figure below) or pulling a sustainable turn in terms of energy loss.
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/Corner.jpg)
Ok, in that diagram if am going 300 in a Spit and pull 6G's to come around on someone after a pass you would consider that stallfighting?
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Ok, in that diagram if am going 300 in a Spit and pull 6G's to come around on someone after a pass you would consider that stallfighting?
You still would not be sustaing maneuvers on the stall/lift limit line.
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You still would not be sustaing maneuvers on the stall/lift limit line.
Ahh, I see the line you're talking about...So, what you're saying is anytime someone rides that curve at some point in an engagement you consider them to be stall fighting? Even if the maneuver along that line is simply performed in the course of exploiting an advantage gained largely by a fundamentally different methodology, E fighting for example? If that's true then there are no such things as stallfighters, angles fighters or E fighters because there cannot be air combat without at least some use of at least two of the three techniques at some point. Does that sound right?
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Ok, let me get this straight, if I blow through at 500 mph and pull 6 G's to come back around for another pass I am stallfighting according to your definition?
Nope, I think you must have misunderstood something I said previously, because at 500mph you would be well above corner velocity and as I explained earlier, you can't stall fight above corner velocity, only below it. That's because if you are above your corner velocity you will either reach the structural limit or black out before you reach the stall, so you simply can't stall fight above corner velocity, you just can't reach that edge of the envelope.
Badboy
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Ok, in that diagram if am going 300 in a Spit and pull 6G's to come around on someone after a pass you would consider that stallfighting?
Nope, again because you would be well above corner velocity and unable to reach the stall.
Badboy
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Nope, I think you must have misunderstood something I said previously, because at 500mph you would be well above corner velocity and as I explained earlier, you can't stall fight above corner velocity, only below it. That's because if you are above your corner velocity you will either reach the structural limit or black out before you reach the stall, so you simply can't stall fight above corner velocity, you just can't reach that edge of the envelope.
Badboy
Yea, I wrote that with the assumption of decelerating through the maneuver to whatever that corner velocity is for a particular plane, I don't have the charts myself so was hard to describe the question...Murd posted one though that illustrates that.
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Nope, again because you would be well above corner velocity and unable to reach the stall.
Badboy
Yea, I see the curve you're describing now.
But, my problem with that is, virtually any fight that goes more than one turn so long as it reaches that velocity on the curve is stallfighting. But, It is also has to be E fighting or angles fighting before it gets to that point. By those definitions that dissect an engagement in slide-show fashion, like in my leg example, you remove the distinction between pilot styles, plane types and fights in general. You could no longer say something like, "I was E fighting a Fw190 in my P51D" or "I had a great stallfight in my Spit with a 109". Because, it's impossible to just E fight, or just Stallfight by those definitions..
My perspective is if the fight is predominantly an Energy fight you were E fighting, even if at some points you did in fact get to the corner velocity/stall/lift line point. The same with your example where you were stallfighting but performed some maneuvers to regain some E. Just because you eased off the turn and got some E doesn't make that E fighting. It's just a means to an end when it comes to the methodology, because there has to be at least a small technique overlap as relative E states get wider or you get further away from the ideal corner velocity.
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Ahh, I see the line you're talking about...So, what you're saying is anytime someone rides that curve at some point in an engagement you consider them to be stall fighting?
Ok, you should be looking at the line that defines the left hand side of the envelope, the lift limit or stall line and only between the points defined as the best sustained turn speed and corner velocity. Fly close to that line between those points and yes, you are considered to be stall fighting.
Even if the maneuver along that line is simply performed in the course of exploiting an advantage gained largely by a fundamentally different methodology, E fighting for example?
That is totally irrelevant, you could be angles or energy fighting at the time, and it is often appropriate to stall fight while doing both.
If that's true then there are no such things as stallfighters, angles fighters or E fighters because there cannot be air combat without at least some use of at least two of the three techniques at some point.
Sorry, I can't quite make sense out of that last quote, but I think I can see where the confusion is coming from, in that quote you mention stall fighters, angle fighters and energy fighters as though they each represent a distinct tactical approach, but they don't, you have given stall fighting a status it doesn't deserve. If you check your copy of Shaw, you will see that he only describes two basic approaches: the "angles" fight and the "energy" fight, you will notice that he doesn't ever refer to stall fighting.
Badboy
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Good, I was hoping a graph might help distinguish between being G-limited (not able to reach stall conditions), and stall limited.
So, what you're saying is anytime someone rides that curve at some point in an engagement you consider them to be stall fighting?
For the duration that they ride the lift limit curve, yes. As soon as they stop riding the curve for whatever reason, they are no longer stall fighting.
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But, my problem with that is, virtually any fight that goes more than one turn so long as it reaches that velocity on the curve is stallfighting. But, It is also has to be E fighting or angles fighting before it gets to that point. By those definitions that dissect an engagement in slide-show fashion, like in my leg example, you remove the distinction between pilot styles, plane types and fights in general. You could no longer say something like, "I was E fighting a Fw190 in my P51D" or "I had a great stallfight in my Spit with a 109". Because, it's impossible to just E fight, or just Stallfight by those definitions..
Nope, the distinction is still there. You would still say that you were energy or angles fighting, stall fighting is something you might do as part of either approach, it just depends on the other factors.
My perspective is if the fight is predominantly an Energy fight you were E fighting, even if at some points you did in fact get to the corner velocity/stall/lift line point.
Correct! Remember that energy fighting is the tactical approach to the engagement, stall fighting is just something you may or may not do in the course of it.
The same with your example where you were stallfighting but performed some maneuvers to regain some E. Just because you eased off the turn and got some E doesn't make that E fighting.
You don't always need to ease off on the stick to be energy fighting, you can be energy fighting while riding the stall the whole time. Energy fighting can simply mean that you only use maneuvers that provide energy retention relative to the maneuvers being used by your opponent, so that while you may be energy fighting and your opponent may be angles fighting, you may both also be stall fighting... they aren't mutually exclusive.
Hope that helps.
Badboy
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When someone tries to describe an engagment as "I was in a 5 minute stall fight", they are trying to convey the conditions of where in the envelope the fight took place. If both planes were constantly riding the edge of stall either turning a luftberry for 5 minutes, or in a slow speed rolling scissors fight for 5 minutes, that description makes sense. Obviously that description wouldn't make sense if one plane was riding the edge of stall for 30 seconds out of a 5 minute engagment.
But at heart it is a condition that one may be in during the course of a fight, which people then attempt to use as a way to describe the fight.
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basic approaches: the "angles" fight and the "energy" fight, you will notice that he doesn't ever refer to stall fighting.
Badboy
Ok, this will help. You can angles fight without stallfighting, angles fighting is exchanging energy for angles even if it results in the net loss of relative E. It wouldn't seem to me stallfighting would be a requirement of that. You wouldn't necessarily have to get to to the ideal curve to angles fight, although it would be better to do so obviously. So, they can, at least in theory, be two different things?...So, I could angles fight without stallfighting and in theory if I never gave up angle to gain relative E on my opponent I wouldn't be E fighting either?
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When someone tries to describe an engagment as "I was in a 5 minute stall fight", they are trying to convey the conditions of where in the envelope the fight took place. If both planes were constantly riding the edge of stall either turning a luftberry for 5 minutes, or in a slow speed rolling scissors fight for 5 minutes, that description makes sense. Obviously that description wouldn't make sense if one plane was riding the edge of stall for 30 seconds out of a 5 minute engagment.
But at heart it is a condition that one may be in during the course of a fight, which people then attempt to use as a way to describe the fight.
Ok, that's what I'm talking about. If I'm in a Pony and I'm E fighting, but once in a while I burn E to get to my corner speed to get tight with a bandit to keep him from escaping or giving him enough time to improve his position I'm technically stallfighting once I get there. But, in actuality it's really just the use of E fighting which is exchanging angles for relative energy in reverse (angles fighting). For a moment during that reversal of technique it is indeed angles fighting, but then stallfighting as I approach and reach my ideal corner speed to come around on him for the killing blow. But really, it's all part of the E fighting methodology, in practice in can't be pure, but is the overall technique...
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You don't always need to ease off on the stick to be energy fighting, you can be energy fighting while riding the stall the whole time. Energy fighting can simply mean that you only use maneuvers that provide energy retention relative to the maneuvers being used by your opponent, so that while you may be energy fighting and your opponent may be angles fighting, you may both also be stall fighting... they aren't mutually exclusive.
Hope that helps.
Badboy
Can you give me an example of this, a diagram or a reference page in Shaw's that gives an example? I want to reconcile the theory of this with the actual practice...Murdr used a scissors fight example but can you think of another example that would fit this description?
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Can you give me an example of this, a diagram or a reference page in Shaw's that gives an example? I want to reconcile the theory of this with the actual practice...Murdr used a scissors fight example but can you think of another example that would fit this description?
Sure... Consider two similar aircraft, let's say Spitfires, both same altitude, same speed (some speed below corner velocity) and neutral positions. You will picture them in a nose to tail turn on opposite sides of the circle, everything at this point is equal.
However, one of the pilots has the mindset of an angles fighter, let's call him Pilot A, the other pilot has the mindset of an energy fighter, let's call him Pilot B. Now, Pilot A wants to gain angles and he knows that he can maximise his turn rate by flying at corner velocity so he initiates a low yo-yo and maintains sufficient aft stick to stay on the edge of the stall. As he descends into the low yo-yo his speed increases and so does his turn rate, he is gaining angles. So far so good.
Now let's look at Pilot B's response. He can see Pilot A initiate a low yo-yo and recognises that Pilot A is attempting to gain an angular advantage, so his response is to enter a shallow spiral climb in order to gain a little altitude and make it more difficult for Pilot A to get a shot as he exits at the top of his low yo-yo. He also pulls sufficient aft stick to remain at the edge of the stall, because he knows that he will also need to maximise his turn rate in the spiral climb and make it more difficult for Pilot A to get that shot. At the end of the maneuver sequence, Pilot A may have come very close to getting a shot, but for the sake of argument, let's say he didn't quite get his nose into position.
Now let's consider their relative energy situation. During this fight Pilot A increased his speed in the low yo-yo and pulled more G, both of which increased drag and cost energy. Also because his speed increased, he also lost thrust and that cost energy too. Pilot B maintained a maximum sustained turn at a lower speed and lower G therefore less drag and more thrust so he will have gained energy relative to pilot A. There will now be a significant energy difference between the two fighters. The fight is a long way from being over, but we can stop here because the point below can now be made
During that evolution, both aircraft were stall fighting the entire time. However, one had the intention of sacrificing energy for angles and flew his aircraft accordingly, and the other had the intention of sacrificing angles for energy and he also flew accordingly. One was the angles fighter, the other was the energy fighter and they were both stall fighting the whole time.
Hope that explanation helps to clarify it for you.
Badboy
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some good debating / discussion going on....Badboy could you or Murdr make a pdf of this thread...cutting out the un-needed portions?
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Sure... Consider two similar aircraft, let's say Spitfires, both same altitude, same speed (some speed below corner velocity) and neutral positions. You will picture them in a nose to tail turn on opposite sides of the circle, everything at this point is equal.
However, one of the pilots has the mindset of an angles fighter, let's call him Pilot A, the other pilot has the mindset of an energy fighter, let's call him Pilot B. Now, Pilot A wants to gain angles and he knows that he can maximise his turn rate by flying at corner velocity so he initiates a low yo-yo and maintains sufficient aft stick to stay on the edge of the stall. As he descends into the low yo-yo his speed increases and so does his turn rate, he is gaining angles. So far so good.
Now let's look at Pilot B's response. He can see Pilot A initiate a low yo-yo and recognises that Pilot A is attempting to gain an angular advantage, so his response is to enter a shallow spiral climb in order to gain a little altitude and make it more difficult for Pilot A to get a shot as he exits at the top of his low yo-yo. He also pulls sufficient aft stick to remain at the edge of the stall, because he knows that he will also need to maximise his turn rate in the spiral climb and make it more difficult for Pilot A to get that shot. At the end of the maneuver sequence, Pilot A may have come very close to getting a shot, but for the sake of argument, let's say he didn't quite get his nose into position.
Now let's consider their relative energy situation. During this fight Pilot A increased his speed in the low yo-yo and pulled more G, both of which increased drag and cost energy. Also because his speed increased, he also lost thrust and that cost energy too. Pilot B maintained a maximum sustained turn at a lower speed and lower G therefore less drag and more thrust so he will have gained energy relative to pilot A. There will now be a significant energy difference between the two fighters. The fight is a long way from being over, but we can stop here because the point below can now be made
During that evolution, both aircraft were stall fighting the entire time. However, one had the intention of sacrificing energy for angles and flew his aircraft accordingly, and the other had the intention of sacrificing angles for energy and he also flew accordingly. One was the angles fighter, the other was the energy fighter and they were both stall fighting the whole time.
Hope that explanation helps to clarify it for you.
Badboy
Yea, that was great ty. It actually sounds alot like a little engagement Murdr and I had like a year ago. He was A and I was B. I tried to do just that after 3-4 rounds of it. I kept making runs on him to watch how he did his pretty overshoot move. Eventually I couldn't get enough separation and got popped with a very nice shot from d800.