Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hangtime on August 29, 2008, 09:36:01 AM
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My, my my... THIS could be interesting.... Palin, the ass-kicking blood 'n guts Iron Woman Moose Killer Governor of Alaska is McCain's pick for the right seat.
Among her 'credentials' is a furious competitive streak, a decent set of legs and a willingness to spit in the eye of crooked politicians. I approve.
(http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0bYm25wdV4bJZ/610x.jpg)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Palin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Palin)
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I approve of her new wave "adam and the ants" attire.
Prince charming.... Prince Charming....
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I Agree :aok
Oh man, the dems were thinking that they had a boost comin out of their convention...
And Johnny Mac swoops down in his A4 and drops the Palin bomb on em....
BASE CAPTURE DENIED!!! :rofl :rofl :rofl
WTG Johnny Mac
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Good choice for him, I'm glad it wasn't Mitt.
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I had the discussion with my wife last week that his pick would be someone that the majority didn't think of...this was really a great strategic move.
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Smart choice. Almost certain to pull many of the Clinton supporters. Obama's gotta be sweatin' this.
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Smart choice. Almost certain to pull many of the Clinton supporters. Obama's gotta be sweatin' this.
Soccer moms too, since McCain is closer to a democrat than he is a conservative.
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Very happy with this pick. Now the Hillary supporters will definitely second guess voting for the Chosen One.
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thats a big Yatzee! game over McCain wins.
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Man I don't know.....It could be good or bad...they keep saying that Obama doesn't have enough
experience...what about Mrs Palin?
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Man I don't know.....It could be good or bad...they keep saying that Obama doesn't have enough
experience...what about Mrs Palin?
Commander in Chief with little experience leaves a noticeable mark much more than 2nd in command.
Sort of like putting a rookie on the mound to teach a veteran ballplayer, that is, Obama and Biden.
This decision just may sway me to McCain. I was going to write a candidate in this fall, but now I'm second guessing my decision.
I stated before that this country wasn't ready to have a black man or woman as President just yet. (thread search for my reasons) But I definately think they're ready to take baby steps and have a woman as VP. :aok
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Well Obama/Biden, has experience in the passenger seat....
McCain/Palin, has experience in the DRIVERS seat...
Which is better???
Or would Biden be the proverbial, "back seat driver"???
RC
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She's got two years as a governor, which gives her chief executive experience, something not even McCain has. It gives her more experience than Obama, a great deal, if you look at her career.
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with her on the ticket can we say that anyone who doesn't vote for Mccain is only doing so because they hate women?
After all.. osamabama must hate women he didn't pick the billary.
Good pick.
lazs
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Very happy with this pick. Now the Hillary supporters will definitely second guess voting for the Chosen One.
I just hope that wasnt the only reason he picked her. I like the pick though. :aok
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with her on the ticket can we say that anyone who doesn't vote for Mccain is only doing so because they hate women?
After all.. osamabama must hate women he didn't pick the billary.
Good pick.
lazs
lazs, I'm really surprised at your acceptance of her, considering your history of posts regarding women on this board. Do you accept her simply because she's an opponent of the Dems or....?
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She's a lifetime member of the NRA, even lazs can't resist her. ;)
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Man I don't know.....It could be good or bad...they keep saying that Obama doesn't have enough
experience...what about Mrs Palin?
Can anybody on the Dem ticket drop a moose at 700 yards? Fly a Bush Plane? Crew a Commercial Fishing boat in the Bearing Sea? Win a playoff hoops game with a broken ankle? Fire Crooked Politicians outright, kill the bridge to nowhere, send a son to Iraq?
Pretty Feisty Politician.. and wining a beauty contest; well, ain't that politics? ;)
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She's a lifetime member of the NRA, even lazs can't resist her. ;)
:rofl
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Very smart move on McCains part.
not only a women, but a GOOD women politician.
Obama and his team must be pretty unhappy right now.
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I would rather have a conservative.. a person who believed in individual rights who is a woman than any metrosexual liberal socialist male.
I think you are not looking at what I write. Not liking the rioters at katrina or the anointed one does not mean I hate all negros for instance.. I would vote for shellby steele and a few other negros over Mccain anyday..
Same for women. there are women and then there are women. One that agrees with me is ten times more desirable than a metrosexual liberal democrat "male".
The negatives of a group oftimes make it fair to use generalities tho.
I hope that is clear.
lazs
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lol so what will McCain run on row? He can't bash Obama for lack of experience with this pick for VP. She was a city-councilmen and has been governor for only 2 years yet she's ready to run the country if he dies of a heart attack. :rofl
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Obamas team is definitely not unhappy, it's going to be a fun series of debates coming up. I think Palin is a good foil for Biden. Very fun election year, much better than the last several.
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Can anybody on the Dem ticket drop a moose at 700 yards? Fly a Bush Plane? Crew a Commercial Fishing boat in the Bearing Sea? Win a playoff hoops game with a broken ankle? Fire Crooked Politicians outright, kill the bridge to nowhere, send a son to Iraq?
Pretty Feisty Politician.. and wining a beauty contest; well, ain't that politics? ;)
Heh, you must have been reading the same website as I this morning. :aok
Well, that makes my week-end, I'm outta here for 4 days of fishing.
Cya guys!
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lol so what will McCain run on row? He can't bash Obama for lack of experience with this pick for VP. She was a city-councilmen and has been governor for only 2 years yet she's ready to run the country if he dies of a heart attack. :rofl
You sound nervous. You should be. :)
She's got two years as a governor, which gives her chief executive experience, something not even McCain has. It gives her more experience than Obama, a great deal, if you look at her career.
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Heh, you must have been reading the same website as I this morning. :aok
Well, that makes my week-end, I'm outta here for 4 days of fishing.
Cya guys!
Have fun
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MILF
:rock,
Wab
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MILF
:rock,
Wab
:rofl
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lol so what will McCain run on row? He can't bash Obama for lack of experience with this pick for VP. She was a city-councilmen and has been governor for only 2 years yet she's ready to run the country if he dies of a heart attack. :rofl
Obama doesn't even have HER experience or credentials. LOL!
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MILF
:rock,
Wab
I hear that, not too bad... Mmmmm Sarah Barracuda???
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Looking at the comments here...I looks like a very good pick! The implications
are endless!!
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Obama doesn't even have HER experience or credentials. LOL!
Hell I would vote for her over McCain or Obama. She isn't part of the washington system unlike the other two.
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I heard a woman on NPR yesterday.. I wonder what she will say today?
She said that the only people who will vote for Mccain are the prejudiced people.. the ones who still hate "black" people and women.
First thing I thought was.. she was using the color of skin to describe a whole race.. next.. it occured to me that the reverse should be true to.. that anyone who voted for osamabama or billary was doing so because they were voting only for color of gender.
Now.. with this stroke of genius of Mccains pick (something rarely seen these days in the republicans).. I can just picture the confusion this mush head is going through..
Not to worry tho.. the shrill pantsuit wearing feminists will be unleashed by the caring sensitve democrats to attack her as not being "a real woman" or not woman enough. Just as they attack powell and rice for not being "black enough" I guess they need to rob and riot and listen to rap to qualify?
Feminists will hate this woman.. even tho she is everything they wish they could be (except hetro).
lazs
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Good for McCain.
Good for Obama.
I hope all who participate in the O'Club stuff are voters and not merely talkers.
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Man, I hope this works for him.
If it's nowhere close in FL, I'm voting for Bob Barr
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I heard a woman on NPR yesterday.. I wonder what she will say today?
She said that the only people who will vote for Mccain are the prejudiced people.. the ones who still hate "black" people and women.
First thing I thought was.. she was using the color of skin to describe a whole race.. next.. it occured to me that the reverse should be true to.. that anyone who voted for osamabama or billary was doing so because they were voting only for color of gender.
Now.. with this stroke of genius of Mccains pick (something rarely seen these days in the republicans).. I can just picture the confusion this mush head is going through..
Not to worry tho.. the shrill pantsuit wearing feminists will be unleashed by the caring sensitve democrats to attack her as not being "a real woman" or not woman enough. Just as they attack powell and rice for not being "black enough" I guess they need to rob and riot and listen to rap to qualify?
Feminists will hate this woman.. even tho she is everything they wish they could be (except hetro).
lazs
Good post lazs...
You listen to NPR? I know its important to keep tabs on the
oppositions propaganda, but how do you tolerate it?
If I consumed a steady diet of NPR, I would have gone completely postal by now!!!
:salute RC
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lol so what will McCain run on row? He can't bash Obama for lack of experience with this pick for VP. She was a city-councilmen and has been governor for only 2 years yet she's ready to run the country if he dies of a heart attack. :rofl
She was a mayor, not just a city councilwoman. And like I said, she has two years as a chief executive of a state, as well as a mayor. Governors do better in presidential elections than senators. She's an outsider, not a Washington DC insider. She's done a lot more than Obama has.
On the flip side, she's not perfect, and she has not proven herself on the big stage. Yet.
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If I had to pick a Prez from the Messiah, Biden, McC or Palin I'd pick Palin.
From her biography and record she sounds like she has more balls than any of them.
She's an amazing political package. Female, anti-corruption and willing to attack the thieves in her own party, married to an Eskimo, one kid headed for Iraq, latest kid Downs syndrome, athlete, political experience from the community level up to executive branch in Alaska, pro-life, headed Fellowship of Christian Athletes, life NRA member.
Damn, she covers a lot of bases for McC. A lot of the constituencies he needs to rally are going to see a lot to like in Palin.
And <genuflects> Change? The Reps DO have a woman on the ticket.
I'm still voting either Barr or Paul though. :D
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Good for you Toad for voting. I suspect, with no evidence, that some of the most vocal in here will not vote. And they'll keep it mum too.
Hope I'm dead wrong. About the not voting part.
P.S. Watching the show online. Folk waiting for McCain to show up. Traffic delays. "McCain Cheerleaders" on right now. Not lying. That's what the guy said who's doing the talking waiting for John to arrive.
For those who want/need polish, this isn't it. I say polish is overrated. Nonetheless, this is very unpolished. Oh well. Probably good. We're way too much into looks.
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I haven't missed an election since I was able to vote. Don't plan on missing any of them.
With rights come obligations. Voting is one of them.
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I heard a woman on NPR yesterday.. I wonder what she will say today?
She said that the only people who will vote for Mccain are the prejudiced people.. the ones who still hate "black" people and women.
First thing I thought was.. she was using the color of skin to describe a whole race.. next.. it occured to me that the reverse should be true to.. that anyone who voted for osamabama or billary was doing so because they were voting only for color of gender.
Now.. with this stroke of genius of Mccains pick (something rarely seen these days in the republicans).. I can just picture the confusion this mush head is going through..
Not to worry tho.. the shrill pantsuit wearing feminists will be unleashed by the caring sensitve democrats to attack her as not being "a real woman" or not woman enough. Just as they attack powell and rice for not being "black enough" I guess they need to rob and riot and listen to rap to qualify?
Feminists will hate this woman.. even tho she is everything they wish they could be (except hetro).
lazs
The feminist won't like her because she's pro life, they will need no reason other than that. That's a deal sealer for the left wing women, but will of course make the right winger happy. She saves un born babies and shoots guns that's like a righties wet dream. Her husband is a big oil executive so that's another plus for the righties..
To top it off she's under investigation for firing the Commissioner of Public Safety because he reportedly wouldn't fire a State Trooper who was in the middle of a divorce with her sister. So yea she has it all, a prefect Republican..
Pro Life
Likes Guns
Hubby is a BP oil exec
Is being investigated for abuse of power.
:rofl
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If I had to pick a Prez from the Messiah, Biden, McC or Palin I'd pick Palin.
From her biography and record she sounds like she has more balls than any of them.
She's an amazing political package. Female, anti-corruption and willing to attack the thieves in her own party, married to an Eskimo, one kid headed for Iraq, latest kid Downs syndrome, athlete, political experience from the community level up to executive branch in Alaska, pro-life, headed Fellowship of Christian Athletes, life NRA member.
Damn, she covers a lot of bases for McC. A lot of the constituencies he needs to rally are going to see a lot to like in Palin.
And <genuflects> Change? The Reps DO have a woman on the ticket.
I'm still voting either Barr or Paul though. :D
I Hear yah, Toad. Since I live in a 'throwaway' state that will vote Democratic no matter what... I'm voting for Barrr... but if it looks close; I may opt for McCain.. in the near run; he's the right guy to face the Russians, longer term, Palin may run in 2012... damn; wouldn't that frost the Dem's cupcakes to have Palin kick Hillary's bellybutton then? LOL!
Interesting times, indeed!
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Good for you Toad for voting. I suspect, with no evidence, that some of the most vocal in here will not vote. And they'll keep it mum too.
Hope I'm dead wrong. About the not voting part.
I always vote. People who don't vote abdicate their responsibility as a citizen, and should keep their mouths shut.
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Awesome.
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I also vote in every election.. I am glad that the sensitive liberals like crock-it are already attacking the femininity of this woman. She isn't feminist enough.. tooooooo much of an individual and out of the liberal stream.
My state is a throwaway state of the highest magnitude.. it is rare in the extreme that I see any vote that I agree with... I was going to vote libertarian cause... hell.. it is a worthless vote anyway but...
Now.. so far as message goes? not sure but I think a vote for this woman sends a pretty darn good message.
lazs
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I'd hit it
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See Rule #7
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To top it off she's under investigation for firing the Commissioner of Public Safety because he reportedly wouldn't fire a State Trooper who was in the middle of a divorce with her sister. So yea she has it all, a prefect Republican..
Pro Life
Likes Guns
Hubby is a BP oil exec
Is being investigated for abuse of power.
:rofl
if you're gonna focus on the negative try to get more information.
On July 11, 2008, Governor Palin dismissed Walter Monegan as Commissioner of Public Safety and instead offered him a position as executive director of the state Alcoholic Beverage Control Board, which he subsequently turned down. Monegan alleged shortly after his dismissal that it may have been partly due to his reluctance to fire an Alaska State Trooper, Mike Wooten, who had been involved in a divorce and child custody battle with Palin's sister, Molly McCann. In 2006, before Palin was governor, Wooten was briefly suspended for ten days for threatening to kill McCann's (and Palin's) father, tasering his 11-year-old stepson (at the stepson's request), and violating game laws. After a union protest, the suspension was reduced to five days.
Governor Palin asserts that her dismissal of Monegan was unrelated to the fact that he had not fired Wooten, and asserts that Monegan was instead dismissed for not adequately filling state trooper vacancies, and because he "did not turn out to be a team player on budgeting issues." Palin acknowledges that a member of her administration, Frank Bailey, did contact the Department of Public Safety regarding Wooten, but both Palin and Bailey say that happened without her knowledge and was unrelated to her dismissal of Monegan. Bailey was put on leave for two months for acting outside the scope of his authority as the Director of Boards and Commissions.
In response to Palin's statement that she had nothing to hide, in August 2008 the Alaska Legislature hired Steve Branchflower to investigate Palin and her staff for possible abuse of power surrounding the dismissal, though lawmakers acknowledge that "Monegan and other commissioners serve at will, meaning they can be fired by Palin at any time." The investigation is being overseen by Democratic State Senator Hollis French, who says that the Palin administration has been cooperating and thus subpoenas are unnecessary. The Palin administration itself was the first to release an audiotape of Bailey making inquiries about the status of the Wooten investigation.
Wooten and the police union alleged that the governor had improperly released his employment files in his divorce case. However, McCann's attorney released a signed waiver from Wooten demonstrating that Wooten had authorized the release of his files through normal discovery procedures.
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Toad, I think the Dems have smiles miles wide right now. I disagree with you. But, since I've a proven track record at being wrong, it might be a good thing for you!
:)
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Feminists will hate this woman.. even tho she is everything they wish they could be (except hetro).
:lol Spot on.
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I vote because if you don't then you have no right to complain.
BTW she goes icefishing....a women after my own heart...... :rofl
Besides I read an article - in the O'club I think - that she was being considered. I thought it was a good choice back then.... :D
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oops
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if you're gonna focus on the negative try to get more information.
I got the info from the same place you did.. Any "boss" can fire any employee at any time, so I'm not quite sure what your point is? As Gov of the state she is the boss over that position but still accountable to not discriminat against someone for personal reasons. You might be able to get away with that in a private business but govt employess are held accountable for that kinda stuff, hence the reason she is under investigation. ;)
So maybe you should think a little, when telling others to get more info..
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Game over!!!!! Game over!!! :aok
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I got the info from the same place you did.. Any "boss" can fire any employee at any time, so I'm not quite sure what your point is? As Gov of the state she is the boss over that position but still accountable to not discriminat against someone for personal reasons. You might be able to get away with that in a private business but govt employess are held accountable for that kinda stuff, hence the reason she is under investigation. ;)
So maybe you should think a little, when telling others to get more info..
Just come out and say it.. You're at her cause she's republican.. Not because of her policies.
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Just come out and say it.. You're at her cause she's republican.. Not because of her policies.
Partisan politics at its ugliest.
If only more people voted the issues, this country would be better off.
Okay, really, I got to get out of here and catch fish. Damn wife is still not ready! :mad:
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Here's a good example of what going on from the other side of the aisle, http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/29/is-it-sarah-palin/ (http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/29/is-it-sarah-palin/) check out the comments.
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Hubby is a BP oil exec
He was hardly an exec.
"Todd has worked 18 years on the North Slope for BP, where he is now a production operator" (2006)
http://dwb.adn.com/news/politics/story/8334949p-8231037c.html
"Until recently, he earned hourly wages as a production operator in a BP-run facility that separates oil from gas and water. Palin was making between $100,000 and $120,000 a year before he went on leave in December to make more time for his family and avoid potential conflicts of interest. London-based BP is heavily involved in the gas pipeline negotiations with his wife's administration." (2007)
http://dwb.adn.com/news/politics/story/8924080p-8824177c.html
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Here's a good example of what going on from the other side of the aisle,
Great choice by McCain. Biden looks like so much dead weight now.
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Here's a good example of what going on from the other side of the aisle, http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/29/is-it-sarah-palin/ (http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/29/is-it-sarah-palin/) check out the comments.
lol, wow what a link.
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She impressed me with her speech right now
Go McCain!!
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Gotta tell ya....
McCain Hit a home run this time... Smack, right outta the park...
This woman looks good, very photogenic... Smart too!!!
A reporter in Alaska said, "The woods are littered with the bodies
of her political opponents!" sounds pretty tough to me...
Watching her speak, she is smart, well spoken, without being
pompous... And without a doubt, PROUD OF OUR COUNTRY!!!
She married a steel worker, commercial fisherman, and snomobile
racer, instead of a blowhard Harvard Lawyer...
Damn, she has good taste in guys too... Smart chick!!!
I see the Great Northwestern spirit in her.... LIVE FREE!!!
The dems are REAL trouble now!!!
RC
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Watched the whole thing...this women is sharp....lets see what kind of
Dirty laundry they will drudge up about her. This is like a chess match...I'm loving it!!
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This seems like a very smart choice by McCain.
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Here's a good example of what going on from the other side of the aisle, http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/29/is-it-sarah-palin/ (http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/29/is-it-sarah-palin/) check out the comments.
Here comes the slams lololol
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I didn't know that politicians could be that hot girl down the street that could kick your arse in sports :D
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Three months ago I would've written off the GOP's chances of retaining the Whitehouse as out of the question. Now I admit I don't have a friggin' clue which way this thing's gonna go... Obama's got the masses convinced he's the "Change" candidate, yet McCain has the bigot and soccermom vote all but locked up.
Good God, how I wish we could have a competition based on policy rather than personality. The only thing I know for sure at this point is, whichever major party candidate wins, this Constitutional Republic we call the USA loses.
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How do you like her. I think she is great and will be a great vp. Shes also pretty hot too :D(i like to call he0r types cougars)
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Can anybody on the Dem ticket crew a Commercial Fishing boat in the Bearing Sea?
Where is this Bearing Sea? AutoZone?
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is it too late for obama to dump biden and pick hillary? :lol
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She believes in creationism and thinks it should be taught in schools. Enough said, in my book if you are dumb enough to believe in creationism over science you are a complete idiot. She is terrible and will boost Democrat votes.
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She believes in creationism and thinks it should be taught in schools. Enough said, in my book if you are dumb enough to believe in creationism over science you are a complete idiot. She is terrible and will boost Democrat votes.
^ And the digging starts.
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I think she's a risky choice. She has impeccable conservative bonefides which shores up McCain's base, she's a reformer like McCain, as a woman she has demographic appeal, and the unconventional choice reinforces McCain's maverick appeal.
On the other hand, McCain has been making hay with the inexperience tact and that's totally off the table now. She has an ethics scandal brewing, there's no way the Hilliary supporters are going for a prolifer, and from what little I've seen so far, Biden will dunk on her like cdazy in a debate.
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Just listened to her, sounded like a wrestling match with the crowd chanting USA in the background. Was waiting for her to say something about the Iron Sheik.
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She believes in creationism and thinks it should be taught in schools. Enough said, in my book if you are dumb enough to believe in creationism over science you are a complete idiot. She is terrible and will boost Democrat votes.
You EVER hear of freedom of religion? She is allowed to believe whatever she wants, just like you. Just so happens that a majority of the people in this country happen to believe the same thing she does so I don't see how that's going to boost the Democrat vote.
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She believes in creationism and thinks it should be taught in schools. Enough said, in my book if you are dumb enough to believe in creationism over science you are a complete idiot. She is terrible and will boost Democrat votes.
This from the Jonas Brother's thread starter.....
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I'm thinking some of you guys don't know what an "at will" employee is.. they are generally lower ranked managers that can be fired for any of a number of reasons including not getting along with their boss.
majave.. thanks for proving my point.. the feminists and metrosexuals are out in force and already the shrill level is so high only a dog can hear it...
I can't believe what a smart move Mccain made.. anyone who can think like that needs to be pres.
Bsd.. I am sorry that paul didn't make it either but there really is a difference between the other parties and you are so caught up that you are blinded.. one is running toward liberal socialism and one is walking and resisting.. I know it doesn't seem like it at times but that is the way it is.
Try to put aside your bitterness and at least support the lesser of two evils.
lazs
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The VP nomination means squat. Who votes for someone based on who their VP is? Ultimately, whoever the nominee is for president is what matters. The president leads the way, while the VP reiterates the presidents message. Your false hope is going to make it hurt even worse when McCain loses. :aok
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This from the Jonas Brother's thread starter.....
Wow.....great comeback. This thread is about the VP, stay on topic.
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what "scandal" myelo, the state trooper she had nothing to do with?
I'm sure the dems will grasp at that straw as well
LOL
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oh yeah, she deffinatly hot compared to billery :D
this was probly the best choice mcaine could make.
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man oh man.. the liberal socialists on this board sound really really really scared.. The reaction is even better than I could have hoped for!
lazs
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You EVER hear of freedom of religion? She is allowed to believe whatever she wants, just like you. Just so happens that a majority of the people in this country happen to believe the same thing she does so I don't see how that's going to boost the Democrat vote.
I could really care less about what she believes religiously. I am totally for freedom of religion. But when you start teaching creationism in a public school, that is where a line is crossed. Separation from church and state....does that ring a bell?
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Just so happens that a majority of the people in this country happen to believe the same thing she does.
The majority of Americans do not believe in creationism.
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The VP nomination means squat. Who votes for someone based on who their VP is?
ahh .. seems the dems are all worried about the Hillary vote now that she didnt even get the veep pick
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I'm going to back up TwentyFo - Just like I can't vote for a rabid gun-control nut, I can't vote for someone who would actively push for creationism to be taught in schools. Unless they also are a proponent of Flying Spaghetti Monster curriculum.
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2008 is full of history's first :aok
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Just listened to her, sounded like a wrestling match with the crowd chanting USA in the background. Was waiting for her to say something about the Iron Sheik.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/Iron_Shiek_Milwaukee_WI_031008.jpg/450px-Iron_Shiek_Milwaukee_WI_031008.jpg)
Doesn't look like he used to.
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The majority of Americans do not believe in creationism.
Let's quote sources ladies. 48.9% of facts are made up 79% of the time.
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I'm going to back up TwentyFo - Just like I can't vote for a rabid gun-control nut, I can't vote for someone who would actively push for creationism to be taught in schools. Unless they also are a proponent of Flying Spaghetti Monster curriculum.
I'd bet Joe and Obamaman believe in it too .. well depending on who they are speaking to at the moment...
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To be honest from what I read about her most of the things she has done seem to fairly reasonable. However, I am not consciously comfortable for someone who believes that creationism should be taught in public schools. This is the exact same CRAP the idiot we have in the White House believes. Like I've said before, the Republican Party is being high-jacked by the religious right. We have had 8yrs of them in the White House do you really think 4 more years are necessary?
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To be honest from what I read about her most of the things she has done seem to fairly reasonable. However, I am not consciously comfortable for someone who believes that creationism should be taught in public schools. This is the exact same CRAP the idiot we have in the White House believes. Like I've said before, the Republican Party is being high-jacked by the religious right. We have had 8yrs of them in the White House do you really think 4 more years are necessary?
I'm confused...what, exactly, has been the impact of having a President that believes in creationism?
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Who votes for someone based on who their VP is?
When the head of the ticket is 72 years old, it's gotta be a consideration.
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and what is the Dem party being hijacked by?
rather have that taught in schools than tommy has two mommies as an approved lifestyle
I'll stick with the church folk, thanks anyway ..
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She believes in creationism and thinks it should be taught in schools. Enough said, in my book if you are dumb enough to believe in creationism over science you are a complete idiot. She is terrible and will boost Democrat votes.
She won't boost anything. VP's never have.
Here's the inherent problem with both sides:
With Obama, you throw more money at the problem. Creationism, which I fully agree is garbage pseudo-science, can & will still be slipped in at local levels.
With McCain, you get the opportunity for vouchers. If Creationism is brought in, you can move your child to a school that doesn't buy into the BS.
So on that front, McCain's option is superior, in that parent choice and competition between schools has proven more capable than simply dumping more money into it and getting "classroom inputs". See here http://www.reason.com/news/show/118868.html (http://www.reason.com/news/show/118868.html) for the real world results of the different approaches.
and linking Bush to faith based crap in violating of the constitution is pretty funny. It's correct, and there should be nothing faith based that gets government funds... but at the same time I've seen Obama on stage flogging his own personal ideas about faith based initiatives. Such a complete load of crap. :furious
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engine.. I believe that you probly are not looking at this correctly.. she does not advocate that creationism be taught as the only theory of mans origin.
She just wants all the theories (and that is all they are) to be taught. It would not take much to add creationism to the list. Simply say "a large group of people believe in creationism and this is what it is"
I see nothing wrong with that... just as they taught us in school that all oil came from dinosours.. they were wrong but it was no big deal.
What a silly thing to get upset at.. that a "teacher" would have to teach.. would have to lay out all ideas.
lazs
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man oh man.. the liberal socialists on this board sound really really really scared.. The reaction is even better than I could have hoped for!
lazs
ain't that the truth, what will the 18 million women that voted for hillary do now. Oh no, obama dissed hillary and McCain picked a W-O-M-A-N.
democrats= when your worried or in doubt, run in circles scream and shout
obama thought his i am MLK,JFK, and Reagan speech would be the big news today and instead it's all about McCain's VP.
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and what is the Dem party being hijacked by?
rather have that taught in schools than tommy has two mommies as an approved lifestyle
I'll stick with the church folk, thanks anyway ..
Wow....that was a huge stretch. Same rhetoric applies that the "Gays" are the reason for the flooding in Iowa earlier this summer.
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Why do you need a school to teach religion? That's what churches are for. Church is optional, school is mandatory. If you are going to teach religion, then you should teach ALL religions, not just one.
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I am actually kind of excited about Palin......first time in years.
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engine.. I believe that you probly are not looking at this correctly.. she does not advocate that creationism be taught as the only theory of mans origin.
She just wants all the theories (and that is all they are) to be taught. It would not take much to add creationism to the list. Simply say "a large group of people believe in creationism and this is what it is"
I see nothing wrong with that... just as they taught us in school that all oil came from dinosours.. they were wrong but it was no big deal.
What a silly thing to get upset at.. that a "teacher" would have to teach.. would have to lay out all ideas.
lazs
What makes a theory necessary for teaching it at a public school? Creationism is laziness and ignorance. I went to a Catholic school and the only theory I learned about was Evolution. Creationism has little or no fact behind it. The only proof I can think of is a book written by man 1000 years ago.
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I am actually kind of excited about Palin......first time in years.
She really just seems true, almost too true :noid
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Bsd.. I am sorry that paul didn't make it either but there really is a difference between the other parties and you are so caught up that you are blinded.. one is running toward liberal socialism and one is walking and resisting.. I know it doesn't seem like it at times but that is the way it is.
Try to put aside your bitterness and at least support the lesser of two evils.
lazs
I hear ya, Lazs, we've had this discussion. The lesser of two evils is still evil, blah blah blah. I'm going to vote "for" the candidate who most closely represents my views, not "against" anyone. I don't want to sidetrack this thread so I digress, suffice it to say that "walking" towards socialism and "resisting" the left doesn't cut it for me. As Ronald Reagan said (paraphrasing) "there is no left, there is no right. There's only an up (to Liberty) and a down (to Totalitarianism)."
Give me a candidate who honors his oath of office and I'll vote for him (or her). IMHO neither of the major parties' nominees will do so. I cannot, in good conscience, vote for that.
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Here is the quote. All sources that I can find reference this, so I am not sure how reliable it is.
"The volatile issue of teaching creation science in public schools popped up in the Alaska governor's race this week when Republican Sarah Palin said she thinks creationism should be taught alongside evolution in the state's public classrooms.
Palin was answering a question from the moderator near the conclusion of Wednesday night's televised debate on KAKM Channel 7 when she said, 'Teach both. You know, don't be afraid of information. Healthy debate is so important, and it's so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both.' "
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Creationis, Come on Fo is this the best you can do to slam our soon to be VP...Lame
Here ...lets talk about Rev Write and Mrs Obamma hating America....is this much
worse than Creationis??? Wake up
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If you are going to teach religion, then you should teach ALL religions, not just one.
as a Christian who believes very strongly in his faith, i agree with RPM. this country was founded on the principle of freedom of religion. as serious as i take my faith, i also take our constitution seriously. as i think the THEORY of evolution is a bunch of bunk, as some feel the same about my faith, it is our RIGHT as Americans to believe what we will. what i think folks like 20fo misunderstand is, no one that i know of that wants to include creationism in public schools wants it to be exclusive. just included, as the THEORY of evolution is.
now on topic: i don't really know anything about this women, but i do believe McC made a wise strategic choice. i do know i would rather have someone who has at least run a state for 2 yrs, than a noob senator in the white house.
NOT
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Wow....that was a huge stretch. Same rhetoric applies that the "Gays" are the reason for the flooding in Iowa earlier this summer.
no silly .. that and Katrina are the fault of Bush .. even I know that LOL
just saying, its ok for the dems to teach whatever in the "public" school system as long as it furthers their agenda..
as far as that goes, I'm for vouchers as the system stinks and is producing idiots at record levels which is doing nothing but setting the stage for the demise of the greatest country on earth in my lifetime
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Separation from church and state....does that ring a bell?
The bell you hear is ringing in your empty belfry.
If you would bother to do a little research you will find that the 1st Amendment says:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...
It's not "a" it is "an"; it makes a difference.
The Founders had no problem with the concept of God being involved in government and public life. There are a plethora of writings that show this and many actions that highlight it as well.
To start on your journey towards knowledge, consider this:
1789:On March 4, the Senate convened for the first time at New York City's Federal Hall. On April 6, it achieved its first quorum and proceeded to elect a doorkeeper, secretary, and chaplain.
First thing the first Senate did was elect a chaplain. Not much separation there is there?
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The only proof I can think of is a book written by man 1000 years ago.
actually, the new testament of the Bible is 2000 yrs old, and the old testament which is also the Jewish Torah is around 4000+. just FYI
NOT
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I'm enjoying the leftist howls in the media already.
Wonder how she'll do against Biden in the debate?
damn, this is indeed going to be an interesting 67 days.
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I have to hand it to McCain, this was a brilliant move on the heels of the Dem Convention. I have to believe that this woman Vice President thing will get as much or more press today and over the weekend as Obama's speech and the review of the Convention. Brilliant.
<edit>: it will fire up conversations on both sides, Dem and Repub, as well as mainstream 'fair' reporting.
<double edit>: The very unscientific research into this thread and Hangtime's Annointed One shows double the posts here so far
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I'm Just glad she will be over Pelosi and Billery...maybe she can oust them somehow.
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<double edit>: The very unscientific research into this thread and Hangtime's Annointed One shows double the posts here so far
Your numbers are skewed. This board is around 95% conservative right. A thread about their candidate will naturally draw more.
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Creationis, Come on Fo is this the best you can do to slam our soon to be VP...Lame
Here ...lets talk about Rev Write and Mrs Obamma hating America....is this much
worse than Creationis??? Wake up
Thinking creationism should be taught in Public schools says a lot about a persons character. Someone who is lazy and ignores known facts is despicable to me. I bet her response to every question she doesn't know is "Because God made it that way."
Republicans wake up and take your party back. Aren't you tired of the religious right having an agenda to force their religion on you. Don't you hate how much influence Pat Robertson and all the other "Men of God" have on your party. What ever happened to fiscal conservatism? Smaller government? What ever happened to the republican party of Regan and even Bush Sr?
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A risky choice. On the one hand, you can't connect her in any way with Bush or Washington. She's truly a political outsider in that respect. The downsides though potentially outweigh the upsides...
1) She has limited political experience. As the VP is only a heartbeat away from the presidency, her nomination undermines the McCain position that Obama is too inexperienced to become president. If Obama is too inexperienced, what does that make Palin?
2) Gender is not a strong predictor of vote choice. If this was meant to woo female voters, or Clinton-leaning voters in particular, it will probably fail. The strongest predictors of vote choice remain partisan affiliation and strength of partisanship. Bush and Kerry split the female vote almost 50-50 in 2004, which is unsurprising since that's pretty much how the parties split in the electorate. It would be surprising, though I suppose not impossible, if gender were to suddenly become an important factor in this election.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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damn, this is indeed going to be an interesting 67 days.
Yah, I am at least thankful to McC for making this more interesting.
The title bout is nauseating; both suck.
But this pick will at least make the Mortal Kombat fun to watch.
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engine.. I believe that you probly are not looking at this correctly.. she does not advocate that creationism be taught as the only theory of mans origin.
She just wants all the theories (and that is all they are) to be taught. It would not take much to add creationism to the list. Simply say "a large group of people believe in creationism and this is what it is"
I see nothing wrong with that... just as they taught us in school that all oil came from dinosours.. they were wrong but it was no big deal.
What a silly thing to get upset at.. that a "teacher" would have to teach.. would have to lay out all ideas.
lazs
The issue is that the theory of evolution is scientific conjecture based on overwhelmingly observable evidence, whereas creationism... is religious conjecture based off no observable evidence. That's why I can't support "intelligent design" being taught - because it's not a statement of how we came to exist, it's all just bashing things you can go and observe for yourself.
If the social studies teacher wants to discuss it in World Religion class or whatever, that's fine.
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Your numbers are skewed. This board is around 95% conservative right. A thread about their candidate will naturally draw more.
LOL... two failed assumptions there RPM, most of us don't even fit the 'conservative right' mold.... seems to me the majority here is the same as the majority 'out there'... middle of the road citizens with more than a little disdain for political hacks regardless of 'party' affiliation. And none of us are shy about taking a dump in either party's cream of wheat.
;)
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Just come out and say it.. You're at her cause she's republican.. Not because of her policies.
I can't stand any sort of hard core religious conservatives as politicians, they are bad for our freedoms. If they didn't try to push all the BS morale's via politics then they wouldn't be so bad. I'll give her credit for cutting the pork in Alaska while she has been gov and she appears to be doing some good. However she's already involved in a abuse of power scandle.
It's already obvious this women is lying with the firing scandal, so how can she be trusted? She's already released a statement that she admits "someone" from her office made the call to have her sister's ex-husband (a state trooper btw) fired. Yet she denies she had anything to do with it.. LOL that's so very Dick Cheney of her. :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
That is straight up abuse of power and this is who you want to be a heart beat away from being president? She has admitted it was her office that made the call yet she expects us to believe she didn't have anything to do with it? Are you guys so hard up that you will ignore that? You O Club righties wench and moan about Clinton getting a BJ in the WH and the fact he lied about yet it's no big deal Cheney lies about the whole spygate deal and now I guess it's no big deal about this women lying about a abuse of power case.
Oh yea and you right winger drill drill drill guys.. I hate to tell you but she's against drilling in Alaska. She says she thinks it's pristine environment and shouldn't be damaged.
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what i think folks like 20fo misunderstand is, no one that i know of that wants to include creationism in public schools wants it to be exclusive. just included, as the THEORY of evolution is.
Why not teach the theory of the flying spaghetti monster too? I mean if we are going to teach creationist theories along side evolution we might as well include all religions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1Uo5DQTtzc
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2) Gender is not a strong predictor of vote choice. If this was meant to woo female voters, or Clinton-leaning voters in particular, it will probably fail. The strongest predictors of vote choice remain partisan affiliation and strength of partisanship. Bush and Kerry split the female vote almost 50-50 in 2004, which is unsurprising since that's pretty much how the parties split in the electorate. It would be surprising, though I suppose not impossible, if gender were to suddenly become an important factor in this election.
Didn't work for this guy... Different times though... :devil
(http://maremare1225.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/mondale-ferraro.jpg)
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I can't stand any sort of hard core religious conservatives as politicians, they are bad for our freedoms. If they didn't try to push all the BS morale's via politics then they wouldn't be so bad. I'll give her credit for cutting the pork in Alaska while she has been gov and she appears to be doing some good. However she's already involved in a abuse of power scandle.
It's already obvious this women is lying with the firing scandal, so how can she be trusted? She's already released a statement that she admits "someone" from her office made the call to have her sister's ex-husband (a state trooper btw) fired. Yet she denies she had anything to do with it.. LOL that's so very Dick Cheney of her. :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
That is straight up abuse of power and this is who you want to be a heart beat away from being president? She has admitted it was her office that made the call yet she expects us to believe she didn't have anything to do with it? Are you guys so hard up that you will ignore that? You O Club righties wench and moan about Clinton getting a BJ in the WH and the fact he lied about yet it's no big deal Cheney lies about the whole spygate deal and now I guess it's no big deal about this women lying about a abuse of power case.
Oh yea and you right winger drill drill drill guys.. I hate to tell you but she's against drilling in Alaska.
Keep typing. You're getting deeper.
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I can't stand any sort of hard core religious conservatives as politicians, they are bad for our freedoms. If they didn't try to push all the BS morale's via politics then they wouldn't be so bad. I'll give her credit for cutting the pork in Alaska while she has been gov and she appears to be doing some good. However she's already involved in a abuse of power scandle.
It's already obvious this women is lying with the firing scandal, so how can she be trusted? She's already released a statement that she admits "someone" from her office made the call to have her sister's ex-husband (a state trooper btw) fired. Yet she denies she had anything to do with it.. LOL that's so very Dick Cheney of her. :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
That is straight up abuse of power and this is who you want to be a heart beat away from being president? She has admitted it was her office that made the call yet she expects us to believe she didn't have anything to do with it? Are you guys so hard up that you will ignore that? You O Club righties wench and moan about Clinton getting a BJ in the WH and the fact he lied about yet it's no big deal Cheney lies about the whole spygate deal and now I guess it's no big deal about this women lying about a abuse of power case.
Oh yea and you right winger drill drill drill guys.. I hate to tell you but she's against drilling in Alaska.
Unnnnhh.... I'm getting dizzy watching you twirl the facts... would you mind spinning the other direction for a little bit?
Palin on Drilling.. in her own words. Not yours.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ys4HGbiONY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ys4HGbiONY)
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She was probably the best choice McCain could make. If he was fifteen years younger, it wouldn't even be a close. Now, I think we have a race.
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LOL... two failed assumptions there RPM, most of us don't even fit the 'conservative right' mold.... seems to me the majority here is the same as the majority 'out there'... middle of the road citizens with more than a little disdain for political hacks regardless of 'party' affiliation. And none of us are shy about taking a dump in either party's cream of wheat.
;)
lol middle of the road, yea right...Yet there is 5 bash Obama threads a day in here. I'd say the average member in the O club is slanted to the right, at least the vocal ones are.
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Unnnnhh.... I'm getting dizzy watching you twirl the facts... would you mind spinning the other direction for a little bit?
Palin on Drilling.. in her own words. Not yours.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ys4HGbiONY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ys4HGbiONY)
Facts? You want him to handle facts? :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Oh yea and you right winger drill drill drill guys.. I hate to tell you but she's against drilling in Alaska. She says she thinks it's pristine environment and shouldn't be damaged.
provide a quote or source; cause I show different....
http://www.ontheissues.org/Sarah_Palin.htm
Sarah Palin on Energy & Oil
Get ANWR open. (Nov 2006)
I believe in protecting Alaska's environment through fair enforcement of our environmental laws. Having a clean record on environmental regulation is critical to getting ANWR open and maintaining our fisheries mining, timber, and tourism industries. I would also revisit the change in regulations on the Alaska Coastal Zone Management program in which the past administration by eliminating the rights of local districts to write specific local enforceable policies on important issues like subsistence.
Source: Campaign website, www.palinforgovernor.com, "Issues" Nov 7, 2006
Sarah Palin on Environment
Convince the rest of the nation to open ANWR. (Jan 2007)
http://www.ontheissues.org/Governor/Sarah_Palin_Environment.htm
The standard should be no different for industry. Ironically, we're trying to convince the rest of the nation to open ANWR, but we can't even get our own Pt. Thomson, which is right on the edge of ANWR, developed! We are ready for that gas to be tapped so we can fill a natural gas pipeline. I promise to vigorously defend Alaska's rights, as resource owners, to develop and receive appropriate value for our resources.
Source: State of the State Address Jan 17, 2007
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lol middle of the road, yea right...Yet there is 5 bash Obama threads a day in here. I'd say the average member in the O club is slanted to the right, at least the vocal ones are.
And most of them are capable of making their points using facts... not hysterical dead wrong rhetoric. And your inaccurate BS is just not doing a damn thing to improve your candidates standing here... in a place where intelligent discourse is expected and hysterical BS is exposed in seconds.
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If Obama is too inexperienced, what does that make Palin?
His equal. Flip it: if Obama is experienced enough to be our next Prez, so is Palin.
2) It would be surprising, though I suppose not impossible, if gender were to suddenly become an important factor in this election.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Agree. I don't think the betrayed Hillaryites are going to take their revenge by voting Palin. Palin isn't the left's sort of woman.
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and there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth
:aok
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provide a quote or source; cause I show different....
http://www.ontheissues.org/Sarah_Palin.htm
Sarah Palin on Energy & Oil
Get ANWR open. (Nov 2006)
Sarah Palin on Environment
Convince the rest of the nation to open ANWR. (Jan 2007)
http://www.ontheissues.org/Governor/Sarah_Palin_Environment.htm
It was on TV in a news clip.
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and there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth
:aok
Agreed. That's the best part of the pick. We're going down the crapper either way but at least it will be interesting watching the game now.
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What ever happened to the republican party of Regan and even Bush Sr?
They weren't conservative to begin with. They just talked a good game.
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f308/winstonsmith6079/Politics/fiscal_conservatives.jpg)
and before the Republicans freak out, yes, I know the cartoon is not precisely accurate. Clinton had a budget surplus, which was brought on by Bush Sr.'s higher taxes. A budget surplus doesn't do dick about the trade deficit. I just find it funny when Repubs claim fiscal conservation after growing the government to exceptionally high levels.
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And most of them are capable of making their points using facts... not hysterical dead wrong rhetoric. And your inaccurate BS is just not doing a damn thing to improve your candidates standing here... in a place where intelligent discourse is expected and hysterical BS is exposed in seconds.
Only thing that I said with out facts is the oil thing. Sorry it came from a new clip as a quote of hers. If they were misquoting her then that's not my fault.
The fact remains she has admitted to the firing deal coming from her office and she is hardcore on the religious and wanted to push the intelligent design crap in schools.
"Gov. Sarah Palin on Wednesday revealed an audio recording that shows an aide pressuring the Public Safety Department to fire a state trooper embroiled in a custody battle with her sister.
Palin, who has previously said her administration didn’t exert pressure to get rid of trooper Mike Wooten, also disclosed that members of her staff had made about two dozen contacts with public safety officials about the trooper."
Two dozen is 24 calls, in case some haven't passed math yet. That's not a opps my staff called by mistake., silly me.. That is straight up involvement by her office trying to get a State Trooper fired because he was divorcing her sister and in a custody battle.
Then on top of that she fires the guy who refused to fire the State Trooper.
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Almost certain to pull many of the Clinton supporters.
Her very social conservative views will probably prevent Clinton supporters from switching party lines.
ack-ack
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Thinking creationism should be taught in Public schools says a lot about a persons character. Someone who is lazy and ignores known facts is despicable to me. I bet her response to every question she doesn't know is "Because God made it that way."
Republicans wake up and take your party back. Aren't you tired of the religious right having an agenda to force their religion on you. Don't you hate how much influence Pat Robertson and all the other "Men of God" have on your party. What ever happened to fiscal conservatism? Smaller government? What ever happened to the republican party of Regan and even Bush Sr?
Yea they are shoving Religion down our throat ....the other day I had a cop tell me to get to church or he was going
to arrest me. What are you talking about with the "God" thing?...you guys are doing a great job taking god out of everything.
I won't be to long, that it won't be on our dollar. You Liberals beat all.
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His equal. Flip it: if Obama is experienced enough to be our next Prez, so is Palin.
It may be true, but it flies in the face of what McCain has been saying about Obama for weeks now. You can claim that both are inexperienced, or that that both are equally experienced. Either way, it doesn't help the Republicans at all. In that sense, I think it buys McCain nothing.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Why not teach the theory of the flying spaghetti monster too? I mean if we are going to teach creationist theories along side evolution we might as well include all religions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1Uo5DQTtzc
as of yet your responses have been misinformed and immature, please try again.
NOT
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It may be true, but it flies in the face of what McCain has been saying about Obama for weeks now. You can claim that both are inexperienced, or that that both are equally experienced. Either way, it doesn't help the Republicans at all. In that sense, I think it buys McCain nothing.
-- Todd/Leviathn
It buys him bitter Hillary voters.
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For what its worth: Being Governor of the state of Alaska for two years would seem to me to be a lot more demanding than being a senator from Illinois for two years.
Plus the experience gained as governor would be much more in line with the knowledge one would need to perform the job as President.
Final analysis: McCain's VP is still more experienced in government than Obama, even though she is three years younger than he. The argument of Obamas inexperience is as relevant today as it was yesterday, and will be tomorrow.
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My wife, a rabid Hillaryite, was more pissed off than happy about McCain's pick. She felt is was an obvious pander to her constituency, as if they will vote for ANY woman. I think McCain will get little or nothing from the Hillary voters.
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Only thing that I said with out facts is the oil thing. Sorry it came from a new clip as a quote of hers. If they were misquoting her then that's not my fault.
The fact remains she has admitted to the firing deal coming from her office and she is hardcore on the religious and wanted to push the intelligent design crap in schools.
"Gov. Sarah Palin on Wednesday revealed an audio recording that shows an aide pressuring the Public Safety Department to fire a state trooper embroiled in a custody battle with her sister.
Palin, who has previously said her administration didn’t exert pressure to get rid of trooper Mike Wooten, also disclosed that members of her staff had made about two dozen contacts with public safety officials about the trooper."
Two dozen is 24 calls, in case some haven't passed math yet. That's not a opps my staff called by mistake., silly me.. That is straight up involvement by her office trying to get a State Trooper fired because he was divorcing her sister and in a custody battle.
Then on top of that she fires the guy who refused to fire the State Trooper.
From what I can dig up, looks like the Trooper threatened the life of Palins father, tasered her nephew and abused her sister.
The guy is still working. And 2 Commissioners later, he's still working.
If anybody did that to somebody in my family.... well, suffice to say I'd be less than charmed.
I'd say Palin has shown great restraint. She's also the one that revealed the existence of the tape and provided it to the state legislature and she suspended the guy who made the call to the commissioner.
Further, the commissioner's audit on his department came up lacking, she decided he was not operating the department to the standards she required, and offered him a transfer to another position. He refused it.
You may now resume your hysterical wailing.
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crazed loony god hating liberals....you know, they think the constitution guarantees them freedom FROM religion.
Liberals, ignore what they say, but keep your eyes on them.
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For what its worth: Being Governor of the state of Alaska for two years would seem to me to be a lot more demanding than being a senator from Illinois for two years.
Obama was also a two-term state senator from Illinois. However, the notion that being a governor is somehow "more demanding" than being a United States Senator... well, that's baffling. I'd say they both had a great deal of responsibility and probably not a lot of free time.
Plus the experience gained as governor would be much more in line with the knowledge one would need to perform the job as President.
There is no job that best prepares one for being president. There is no job like it in the world. Remember, Carter was a governor. So was Reagan. One of these things is not like the other.
Final analysis: McCain's VP is still more experienced in government than Obama, even though she is three years younger than he. The argument of Obamas inexperience is as relevant today as it was yesterday, and will be tomorrow.
So all those years in the state legislature don't count for him then? Hm.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Her very social conservative views will probably prevent Clinton supporters from switching party lines.
ack-ack
Myself I don't mind conservative views in regard to govt.. In other words like the Republican party used to be before Regan. The problem is they still try to preach like they are conservative when they aren't anything close to it. Hence the reason I always bash the current crop of Republicans because they pretty much suck and the only conservatism they have is towards Religion and their so called morals. That's exactly what is screwing up this country, the entire Republican party has been hi-jacked by the religious right and big business.
If Republicans actually stood for less govt less taxes like they used to, then I'd support them like I used to. The problem is they are worse than the Democrats because the current crop of Republican have no control on spending. It's just freaking crazy how much these guys have been spending and how fast they have put this country in serious long term trouble. No way can that party be trusted at this point.
I will never support a Republican until they get their act together and that don't look like it will be anytime soon.
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Wait until the ClintonTM machine attacks her :noid
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See Rule #2
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she like guns and bibles, you know, just like all the people obama made fun of.
and she only owns one house.
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Wait until the ClintonTM machine attacks her :noid
If she does and is successful, she won't get another shot in 2012. So... don't hold your breath.
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I think it buys McCain nothing.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Agreed; he has lost his "inexperienced" avenue of attack. He'll have to switch to a just as qualified defensive approach now.
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My wife, a rabid Hillaryite, was more pissed off than happy about McCain's pick. She felt is was an obvious pander to her constituency, as if they will vote for ANY woman. I think McCain will get little or nothing from the Hillary voters.
I don't think McC is going to gain liberal women voters. There is absolutely nothing he could do that would help with them.
OTOH, I think this pick will help with moderate women. He could have lost a lot of them to The Messiah but McC made a good move here to make the Pub ticket more attractive to the non-foamers.
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wait a min, the republican ticket has the more experienced person running for president, the democratic ticket has the less experienced person running for president.
now what was your argument again?
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The problem is they are worse than the Democrats because the current crop of Republican have no control on spending.
Have you totaled up the cost of all the stuff The Obamessiah promised last night in Denver?
Didn't think so.
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The republican VP pick has more real government exp than the Democratic Pres pick in this case.
Two years as governor is easily worth six years of senatorship.
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Two years as governor is easily worth six years of senatorship.
As I have been neither a governor nor a senator, I must yield to your expertise in this regard. What state did you govern?
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Wow, this thread has taken off even faster than the one Boroda started! :rock
I think McCain just hit a Grand Slam with this pick.
She wants to drill in ANWR and offshore, wants to fire a State Trooper that has violated laws by threatening the life of her relatives and abused another. (The trooper should be fired and charges filed.) Is hard core against corruption. Fired an at will employee for not performing his job up to standards....I think this pick by McCain was pure genius.
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The race is McCain versus Obama and that will be the major focus.
But this is an intriguing choice on McCain's part. Sara Palin is a fresh face - most people don't know much about her yet. She seems to have the conservative credentials, she seems to be open and honest with no baggage. What little I saw suggests that she could really grow on people in the weeks to come. She's easy on the eyes and a charming speaker. I understand she's a hunter, and a down to earth person. Against abortion and a good mother. Hmmmm.
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See Rule #4
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As I have been neither a governor nor a senator, I must yield to your expertise in this regard. What state did you govern?
a senator votes on laws, a governor runs a state. Poor liberals, grabbing at straws.
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I'm sick and tired of people on BOTH sides of the political fence doing nothing but piss and moan about the other party, and that goes for the boards here, too. The whopping majority of the political posts here are one big anti-Liberal or Conservative flame fest. Conservatives, it's pot calling the kettle black when you start poking at the liberals railing against Palin in this thread. You're no less guilty of the Party-line bashing, or need I bring up the constant "Osamabama he has an Arab-sounding name so let's associate him with a terrorist" remarks?
My vote is probably going to go to the first candidate who completely shuns the negative campaign strategy, says NOTHING about the other guy's politics or religious/moral/personal politcal background, and focuses 100% of his campaign effort on what HE will do and what HE will bring to the office. I don't even know if I'd care what his position IS. At this point I just want to see someone who can campaign without resulting to flinging poop like the rest of the political Howler monkeys in the running.
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Guess you'll be writing in Ron Paul then.
He's the only one that meets your criteria.
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i guess saxman will vote for obama because obama is for change
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crazed loony god hating liberals....you know, they think the constitution guarantees them freedom FROM religion.
Liberals, ignore what they say, but keep your eyes on them.
Actually yes - that is true - we have no right to force ones religous beliefs down the throat of others
Finally... a thumper with a clue....
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From what I can dig up, looks like the Trooper threatened the life of Palins father, tasered her nephew and abused her sister.
The guy is still working. And 2 Commissioners later, he's still working.
If anybody did that to somebody in my family.... well, suffice to say I'd be less than charmed.
I'd say Palin has shown great restraint. She's also the one that revealed the existence of the tape and provided it to the state legislature and she suspended the guy who made the call to the commissioner.
Further, the commissioner's audit on his department came up lacking, she decided he was not operating the department to the standards she required, and offered him a transfer to another position. He refused it.
You may now resume your hysterical wailing.
Hang, Crockett already knew that, or so he told me when I posted a couple of pages back...
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Well if McCain dies in office at least there will be some experience in the office. Im not sure Im ready for a woman but it sure beats the White House going purple haze on us.
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Obama's speech was full of generic democratic party sound bites. Almost nothing new, that hadn't already been stated by Clinton, Gore, Kerry, and others: "We're going to take our country back! We're going to solve the housing/fuel/environmental/social security problems by soaking the rich, gutting the military, and passing middle class tax cuts.
Palin is a great pick for McCain. If nothing else, it will shore up his support among conservatives, and throw the Obama campaign a curve that will yield them nothing but a foul ball.
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As I have been neither a governor nor a senator, I must yield to your expertise in this regard. What state did you govern?
What do you """imagine""" an executive of a state would have in common with an executive of a nation? as compared to a senator who does two things...orates and pushes a voting button. Think about it and tell what qualifies you to even have an opinion?
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My wife, a rabid Hillaryite, was more pissed off than happy about McCain's pick. She felt is was an obvious pander to her constituency, as if they will vote for ANY woman. I think McCain will get little or nothing from the Hillary voters.
well we wouldn't expect anythng less from you or your's :rofl :rofl
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As I have been neither a governor nor a senator, I must yield to your expertise in this regard. What state did you govern?
good point :aok only we ask you the same ? :huh
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I like the idea that she is an outsider. McCain has lost a bit of his image in that respect and this will strengthen it.
If McCain win this thing, I'd like to see him clean house in the Executive branch. (Maybe keep Condi on :D )
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a senator votes on laws, a governor runs a state. Poor liberals, grabbing at straws.
Really? That's all a senator does?
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In the early 80's I worked with a guy who was very religious, nothing wrong with that.. I am too...
But, he was a member of a very conservative, southern states tied church - I apologize not remembering the name of it...wasn't very large...
What baffled my mind about this guy, who was a very nice affable kind of guy...was that he totally and irrevocably believed that the Holocaust never happened, that "liberal" forces made it up, we had a "discussion" for about an hour on the subject... he quoted scripture like Moses...all to support his beliefs... I still remember sitting their with my mouth saying -huh?...and my mind thinking which is the fastest way out of here if this guy goes critical mass?...
Just curious... are there a lot of people on this board that think the same way?
Some responses here just remind me of his thought processes.
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My kind of woman.
(http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd336/makarov9/PalinM4_2.jpg)
(http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd336/makarov9/PalinM4.jpg)
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a senator votes on laws, a governor runs a state. Poor liberals, grabbing at straws.
Then you as a jod fearing Ah mer eh cun should be protesting all the trips to Iraq and other places around the world... they are nosing into other peoples business without your support.
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Really? That's all a senator does?
Oh yeah, they run for re-election too.
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The republican VP pick has more real government exp than the Democratic Pres pick in this case.
Two years as governor is easily worth six years of senatorship.
Nonsense.
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What do you """imagine""" an executive of a state would have in common with an executive of a nation? as compared to a senator who does two things...orates and pushes a voting button. Think about it and tell what qualifies you to even have an opinion?
The fact that you've said this tells me you are ignorant of what legislators actually do. This renders the rest of what you've stated moot.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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My wife, a rabid Hillaryite, was more pissed off than happy about McCain's pick. She felt is was an obvious pander to her constituency, as if they will vote for ANY woman. I think McCain will get little or nothing from the Hillary voters.
Still, a lot smarter pick than Joe Biden :lol
Biden is an idiot.
Bidens approval rating is like 9% in the senate, and Palin's approval rating is like 90% as governer.
Edit: I was watching CNN, NBC, Fox and so forth. And all had it as front headlines except NBC, they didn't even mention it slightly till about 45 min into their show... :rofl
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Is beer a religion?
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Some responses here just remind me of his thought processes.
That response sounds like the guy you are discussing.
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Hey, in the movie Air force One, wasn't Harrison Ford an ex fighter pilot and the VP was a female? :noid
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Hey, in the movie Air force One, wasn't Harrison Ford an ex fighter pilot and the VP was a female? :noid
disconnect.
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Excellent, excellent move. McC just trumped every single finger waggle that Obama could have tossed in the path.
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She's a good choice. She has run her campaigns on cleaning up government and has been big on ethics. She does not have skeletons in her closet or a huge basket of dirty laundry. Considering that most Americans are fed up with government corruption and lack of ethics this should be a big selling point. If the media is ever willing to look past the fact that she's a woman I think America is going to find a rare trustworthy and ethical politician. Her approval rating in Alaska is through the roof. She has stated that she doesn't want the job of VP if its all about doing nothing; she's used to running a state for a living. The fact that she's a VPILF probably won't hurt things either.
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She's a good choice. She has run her campaigns on cleaning up government and has been big on ethics. She does not have skeletons in her closet or a huge basket of dirty laundry. Considering that most Americans are fed up with government corruption and lack of ethics this should be a big selling point. If the media is ever willing to look past the fact that she's a woman I think America is going to find a rare trustworthy and ethical politician. Her approval rating in Alaska is through the roof. She has stated that she doesn't want the job of VP if its all about doing nothing; she's used to running a state for a living. The fact that she's a VPILF probably won't hurt things either.
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OK,
I guess I didn't coin VPILF:
http://www.vpilf.com/
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OK,
I guess I didn't coin VPILF:
http://www.vpilf.com/
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Everyone at work was talking about this today. 99% seemed pretty happy and optimistic about it. Yea Biden will probably do well in debates especially on international relations and military topics, but she appears to be a true conservative from a commoner's background, not a corporate shill or country club republican.
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Everyone at work was talking about this today. 99% seemed pretty happy and optimistic about it. Yea Biden will probably do well in debates especially on international relations and military topics, but she appears to be a true conservative from a commoner's background, not a corporate shill or country club republican.
Like I've stated before. Biden and Obama will get raped by the NRA. McCain would have had to work pretty hard to lose this one.
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Then you as a jod fearing Ah mer eh cun
yeah, i have a gun and a bible.
learn to spell American.
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My wife, a rabid Hillaryite, was more pissed off than happy about McCain's pick. She felt is was an obvious pander to her constituency, as if they will vote for ANY woman. I think McCain will get little or nothing from the Hillary voters.
I think the choice will attract more undecideds, moderates, and conservatives who didn't think they had a reasonable choice, than hillary supporters. She's a true conservative republican and that *should* matter to voters more than the candidate's gender. No disrespect towards your wife intended, but if she gets hung up on a VP candidate's gender then she's just proving that she doesn't really care about the issues and is just looking for an excuse to vote against the old white guy.
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For what its worth: Being Governor of the state of Alaska for two years would seem to me to be a lot more demanding than being a senator from Illinois for two years.
Plus the experience gained as governor would be much more in line with the knowledge one would need to perform the job as President.
Final analysis: McCain's VP is still more experienced in government than Obama, even though she is three years younger than he. The argument of Obamas inexperience is as relevant today as it was yesterday, and will be tomorrow.
Alaska only has 700k people. Smaller budget, unique problems to be sure, but still a small constituency. Governor/Senator=wash.
I think its a despirate bold move. But I don't think it will work.
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OK,
I guess I didn't coin VPILF:
http://www.vpilf.com/
That's ok eskimo... i had the same thought too :aok
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grr not eskimo. :lol
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Alaska only has 700k people. Smaller budget, unique problems to be sure, but still a small constituency. Governor/Senator=wash.
I think its a despirate bold move. But I don't think it will work.
Actually, since Obama has been running for President nearly since he became a Senator, while Palin has been at home in Alaska minding the store, I'd say her experience trumps his, by a long shot. She was also a mayor of a small town before that.
It's not necessarily the size of the constituency, but rather how well you represent them and how hard you work for them.
Oh, and Obama's whirlwind "See, Europe and the Middle East LOVE Me" tour does NOT count towards foreign policy experience.
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The fact that you've said this tells me you are ignorant of what legislators actually do. This renders the rest of what you've stated moot.
-- Todd/Leviathn
another class act :huh
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Nonsense.
hell of an argument there. you must leave now.
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The lady has more "executive" experience than all three of the other contenders (all senators) combined.
Hell, how can obama even be considered as performing his duties in the senate for the people of Illinois when all he has done
is campaign for president the past year and a half? He be getting paid by all of us to be a senator. obama has a pathetic resume and even less experience.
At least McCain and Biden have played the game long enough to be able to slouch off the job for a year at a time. obama is just hurten and looking childish in all this.
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Actually yes - that is true -
Wrong answer thumpy.
Freedom "OF" religion. To choose of your own FREEWILL!
Back to school for you.
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Hell... the lady has more executive experience than Lincoln, Kennedy, and Truman when they were elected president.
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"Oboma"- call hillary see if she is still mad :pray :pray
"dnc"- don't do it man :devil
"Oboma"- but ,but, McCain did it :cry crap now what are we gonna do :uhoh
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did i mention that i really like her as V.P.? :aok
cause i wasn't sure :huh
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[snip]
Hell, how can obama even be considered as performing his duties in the senate for the people of Illinois when all he has done
is campaign for president the past year and a half? He be getting paid by all of us to be a senator. obama has a pathetic resume and even less experience.
[snip]
I fail to see how you can consider attending Columbia University, then Harvard Law School, then being President of the Harvard Law Review as being "a pathetic resume".
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I fail to see how you can consider attending Columbia University, then Harvard Law School, then being President of the Harvard Law Review as being "a pathetic resume".
oh I get it, the liberal elitism of academia trumps genuine executive experience.......
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I fail to see how you can consider attending Columbia University, then Harvard Law School, then being President of the Harvard Law Review as being "a pathetic resume".
He did nothing to get where he is maybe...
IIRC, one of the contraversys about him is that the guy who got him started had bombed a whole bunch of stuff in the '70s and what not...
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Hell... the lady has more executive experience than Lincoln, Kennedy, and Truman when they were elected president.
You know....I get your point, but when placed in historical context it would still be a true statement :O
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I fail to see how you can consider attending Columbia University, then Harvard Law School, then being President of the Harvard Law Review as being "a pathetic resume".
I'm not impressed by those credentials for a candidate for the US President.
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I fail to see how you can consider attending Columbia University, then Harvard Law School, then being President of the Harvard Law Review as being "a pathetic resume".
have you been to columbia , :huh or harvard law. :huh or ever seen the harvard law review :uhoh
yes as a dem you might think this qualifies you for something but as an american :D not so much :confused:
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Excellent, excellent move. McC just trumped every single finger waggle that Obama could have tossed in the path.
One of Mom's fellow Alaskan hotties is gonna be VP! :aok
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Her very social conservative views will probably prevent Clinton supporters from switching party lines.
ack-ack
Yeah, that's what I fear. Lieberman would have been a much better choice IMO.
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Bad idea. A Republican and a Democrat actually agreeing to run on the same ticket would be sure a sign the end of the world is upon us.
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I fail to see how you can consider attending Columbia University, then Harvard Law School, then being President of the Harvard Law Review as being "a pathetic resume".
I think that's great. That is if he's trying to make partner at some scum of the earth law firm.
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another class act
How's that cognitive dissonance working out for you these days?
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Yeah, that's what I fear. Lieberman would have been a much better choice IMO.
I think this move will pick up more votes overall than a Lieberman veep would have
it would have been interesting watching the dems try to undermine one of their own though :)
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I'm sick and tired of people on BOTH sides of the political fence doing nothing but piss and moan about the other party, and that goes for the boards here, too. The whopping majority of the political posts here are one big anti-Liberal or Conservative flame fest. Conservatives, it's pot calling the kettle black when you start poking at the liberals railing against Palin in this thread. You're no less guilty of the Party-line bashing, or need I bring up the constant "Osamabama he has an Arab-sounding name so let's associate him with a terrorist" remarks?
My vote is probably going to go to the first candidate who completely shuns the negative campaign strategy, says NOTHING about the other guy's politics or religious/moral/personal politcal background, and focuses 100% of his campaign effort on what HE will do and what HE will bring to the office. I don't even know if I'd care what his position IS. At this point I just want to see someone who can campaign without resulting to flinging poop like the rest of the political Howler monkeys in the running.
Well put!
DAMN WELL PUT!
<S>
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Man, NBC is just getting owned by everyone in this one. First thing they say about her (Dont remember what it was) really made people mad. And apparently, someone apparently said something really bad about her new child who is mentally handi-capped.... Is it really THAT big of a deal? :huh
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Her very social conservative views will probably prevent Clinton supporters from switching party lines.
ack-ack
I dont know alot about her..yet. But I will soon enough.
But if she has very conservative views
Then what you say is true.
May end up turning off alot of independents as well.
Its the independents who are going to decide this election.
Independents tend to be more middle of the road.
And like myself are tired of the base right and left.
As my father in law would say.
"They're all friggen nuts"
Personally I dont see why he had to pick a base line conservative.
Its not like the base is going to start voting Democrat.
The base is going to vote Republican no matter who he picked for VP.
Because in the end. For all their moaning and groaning. Thats what they always do. "Goo team" :rolleyes:
Same thing for Obama. The base isnt going to vote Republican.
The one who wins this election is going to be the one who does a better job courting the middle of the road moderate independents.
Not the one who appeased the party base the best.
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Bad idea. A Republican and a Democrat actually agreeing to run on the same ticket would be sure a sign the end of the world is upon us.
Lieberman isn't a Democrat. He lost the party's nomination.
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Dred what you just wrote makes a ton of sense and by that reasoning Palin IS the perfect choice to bring in that independant middle of the road voter.
Think about it like this. I'm an independant middle of the road voter and I think this woman is awsome. She isn't a career politician, she's a working mom with a real life who saw how bad things were screwed up in her home state so she ran for office, won, and promptly started getting rid of all the crooked state officials that were causing all the problems, even people within her own party. How many of us middle of the road indepandants haven't had the desire to do the exact same thing she has done for the exact same reason?
I believe she is going to appeal to a big majority of that independant middle of the road crowd because of who she is, how she lives her life, and because for the first time we actually have a choice to put someone "just like us" in the white house as the XO that actually stands a chance of making it.
I wish she was running by herself for President. I'd vote for her just because she IS just a regular person who has had a bunch of different jobs, and has actually WORKED for a living along with her husband, just like the rest of us working stiffs. I think she just clinched it for McCain once people get to know her and realize they can put someone that can really relate to the average American into the second highest office in the Nation.
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I fail to see how you can consider attending Columbia University, then Harvard Law School, then being President of the Harvard Law Review as being "a pathetic resume".
Wow, he's a well educated LAWYER :rolleyes:. Hell, LAWYERS, and their infestation of the government, are what is WRONG with government.
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The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
(2 Henry VI, 4.2.59)
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The majority of Americans do not believe in creationism.
Christian 217,872,000 76.5 % (of US Population)
Non-religious 37,593,600 13.2 % (of US Population)
agnostic 1,424,000 0.5 % (of US Population)
atheists 1,139,200 0.4 % (of US Population)
*Reference 2000 US Census http://www.adherents.com/adh_dem.html
The thought that the majority of this country falls in the lower three categories above is ridiculous. This country was founded on Christian teachings and values. You have the right to believe anything you wish, even the spaghetti monster. I agree that all religions should be taught ABOUT in schools. Provide the kids with ALL the options out there, let them embark on knowledge instead of growing up just hating people who have made a decision to live their life believing in something.
It confuses me that the Obama-nation representatives here would judge the GOP Veep choice by the fact she wants to give kids the knowledge to decide themselves.
It is quite funny to watch all the feathers ruffle tho. Like a bunch of ninny pigeons in Central Park...... :lol
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She isn't a career politician, she's a working mom with a real life who saw how bad things were screwed up in her home state so she ran for office, won, and promptly started getting rid of all the crooked state officials that were causing all the problems, even people within her own party.
Yup. This 'politician' just doesn't smell like one. Nice legs and allow me to point out she has a nice.. unnnh.. I digress.
Off the sexist path, she's just about as far off the beaten path of 'politics as usual' as you can get.. she's fearless, destroys corporate interests and corrupt politicians just as adeptly as she changes diapers. Imagine.. a representative of the people that's actually.... people. A Governor that forced a multi-national corporation that was bilking the state got called to task, forced to honor it's contract, and passed the proceeds along to the citizens of the state.. unheard of.
Damn, I have hope... could it be; is it possible, WE can find more people like her that want to serve this nation, instead of themselves? They gotta be out there... Alaskans found one. She's been doing her job; and she's gonna be showing Washington how to do theirs.
Kudo's Alaskans.. nice job... and thanks for electing this 'hockey mom'. Maybe we'll learn by the example; if nothing else.
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As an outsider I think its a clever choice.
It shows McCain a far more "modern" leader than Obama, because despite all his chanting about change - Obama went safe and choose a 60+ white democratic stalwart. McCain has also moved away from the traditional white men only republican ticket which also further defuses Obama's change message, has given the real anger felt by Hillary hardliners an alternative (its still a big leap), from early reports here she's a traditional conservative, a fast and proven administrator, and with 5 kids (with one in the Army etc etc) only helps McCain in the traditional conservative electorates. Her "inexperience" is a slight problem because McCain really can't capitalise further on Obama's - but I would see it as bonus because being younger than Obama she can counter anything Obama/Biden can throw at McCains age, and the lines about being out of touch.
Obama did make a mistake not taking Hillary onboard, and I personally thought a McCain/Powell ticket would've been a slamdunk - but I do think it was a very good move by McCain, and maybe will make him president?
Tronsky
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I'll put it this way. For instance, if John McCain croaked (died) while in office do you think she is qualified or even able to lead this country? She is a governor of Alaska, which coincidentally has more reindeer than people(I stole that line, but oh well). She is on her first term as governor of Alaska. At least Obama actually made it to Washington and represented one of the most populated states in the union. She is not by a longshot a qualified candidate.
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Christian 217,872,000 76.5 % (of US Population)
Non-religious 37,593,600 13.2 % (of US Population)
agnostic 1,424,000 0.5 % (of US Population)
atheists 1,139,200 0.4 % (of US Population)
*Reference 2000 US Census http://www.adherents.com/adh_dem.html
The thought that the majority of this country falls in the lower three categories above is ridiculous. This country was founded on Christian teachings and values. You have the right to believe anything you wish, even the spaghetti monster. I agree that all religions should be taught ABOUT in schools. Provide the kids with ALL the options out there, let them embark on knowledge instead of growing up just hating people who have made a decision to live their life believing in something.
It confuses me that the Obama-nation representatives here would judge the GOP Veep choice by the fact she wants to give kids the knowledge to decide themselves.
It is quite funny to watch all the feathers ruffle tho. Like a bunch of ninny pigeons in Central Park...... :lol
Repo... the concept that all, or even a sizable portion of the 'christians' in this country (as defined by the census) reject evolution and believe in 'creationism' is ludicrous. And you sure won't find 76% of the US population in church come sunday.
Next 'christian' you see, show him a fossil and ask him if he thinks evolution is horsecrap.
Being a 'Christian' is about morals and values... not '7th day, he had a beer'.
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I'll put it this way. For instance, if John McCain croaked (died) while in office do you think she is qualified or even able to lead this country? She is a governor of Alaska, which coincidentally has more reindeer than people(I stole that line, but oh well). She is on her first term as governor of Alaska. At least Obama actually made it to Washington and represented one of the most populated states in the union. She is not by a longshot a qualified candidate.
Ok.. Obama had 2 years in the senate.. how many republican and democrat crooks has he rubbed shoulders with, identified, revealed, exposed? How many of their heads are now mounted on his wall? How many corporations has he called to task? How many ethics bills has he introduced? Just how wide a swath has he cut in the halls of the corrupt?
Care to ask that question regarding the Govenor of Alaska?
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I'll put it this way. For instance, if John McCain croaked (died) while in office do you think she is qualified or even able to lead this country? She is a governor of Alaska, which coincidentally has more reindeer than people(I stole that line, but oh well). She is on her first term as governor of Alaska. At least Obama actually made it to Washington and represented one of the most populated states in the union. She is not by a longshot a qualified candidate.
What has Obama, or for that matter Biden, actually run as a chief executive? Obama wasn't even a senator for 150 days before he took the rest of his term off to run for President. Palin, on the other hand, served a full term as a mayor, and is into her THIRD YEAR (took oath of office in 2006, it is now 2008) as governor of a state, and she HAS NOT been gone from Alaska for most all of 2006, 2007, and 2008, like Obama has been gone from the Senate. Further, she's held REAL jobs, she has a SOLID voting record, and her stated positions match her voting record.
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Being a 'Christian' is about morals and values... not '7th day, he rested'.
Actually it would be about both. ;) (I fixed your statement so it would be about both. :D )
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Actually it would be about both. ;) (I fixed your statement so it would be about both. :D )
:aok Thanks. Not a subject I'm an expert on.
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I'll put it this way. For instance, if John McCain croaked (died) while in office do you think she is qualified or even able to lead this country? She is a governor of Alaska, which coincidentally has more reindeer than people(I stole that line, but oh well). She is on her first term as governor of Alaska. At least Obama actually made it to Washington and represented one of the most populated states in the union. She is not by a longshot a qualified candidate.
atleast she has led. As a Mayor and a Governer, she has more skill than Obama. You dont lead in the Senate. And she has an approval rating of 90+%
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Repo... the concept that all, or even a sizable portion of the 'christians' in this country (as defined by the census) reject evolution and believe in 'creationism' is ludicrous. And you sure won't find 76% of the US population in church come sunday.
Next 'christian' you see, show him a fossil and ask him if he thinks evolution is horsecrap.
Being a 'Christian' is about morals and values... not '7th day, he had a beer'.
Belief can be a powerful thing though, Hangtime...If you think about women in Iraq triggering dynamite vests in marketplaces' in Iraq, especially...Or even here in the U.S., you have groups' like the Amish, who prefer to live their lives' using 18th century technology, simply because of their beliefs...And for that matter, you can point at other Christian groups, like the Branch Davidians, or certain groups of the Mormon sect, that still preach polygamy, and other values that more mainstream christian groups are appalled by.
BTW, beware of statistics. They are only a certain percentage correct a certain percentage of the time... :lol
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Belief can be a powerful thing though, Hangtime...If you think about women in Iraq triggering dynamite vests in marketplaces' in Iraq, especially...Or even here in the U.S., you have groups' like the Amish, who prefer to live their lives' using 18th century technology, simply because of their beliefs...And for that matter, you can point at other Christian groups, like the Branch Davidians, or certain groups of the Mormon sect, that still preach polygamy, and other values that more mainstream christian groups are appalled by.
BTW, beware of statistics. They are only a certain percentage correct a certain percentage of the time... :lol
Yes, but idiots never listen to the Majority and they think its vital to listen to the minority.
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At least Obama actually made it to Washington and represented one of the most populated states in the union.
What does this matter? How long was he there before he started campaigning for President?
Palin actually has run something, and for a lot longer than Obama has actually been in Washington doing something.
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What does this matter? How long was he there before he started campaigning for President?
Obama's time in the Senate, before beginning his campaign, was one hundred forty seven days. I think the term is The Audacity of Hype.
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I'll put it this way. For instance, if John McCain croaked (died) while in office do you think she is qualified or even able to lead this country? She is a governor of Alaska, which coincidentally has more reindeer than people(I stole that line, but oh well). She is on her first term as governor of Alaska. At least Obama actually made it to Washington and represented one of the most populated states in the union. She is not by a longshot a qualified candidate.
He made it to DC but hardly did anything.
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Christian 217,872,000 76.5 % (of US Population)
Non-religious 37,593,600 13.2 % (of US Population)
agnostic 1,424,000 0.5 % (of US Population)
atheists 1,139,200 0.4 % (of US Population)
*Reference 2000 US Census http://www.adherents.com/adh_dem.html
The thought that the majority of this country falls in the lower three categories above is ridiculous. This country was founded on Christian teachings and values. You have the right to believe anything you wish, even the spaghetti monster. I agree that all religions should be taught ABOUT in schools. Provide the kids with ALL the options out there, let them embark on knowledge instead of growing up just hating people who have made a decision to live their life believing in something.
It confuses me that the Obama-nation representatives here would judge the GOP Veep choice by the fact she wants to give kids the knowledge to decide themselves.
It is quite funny to watch all the feathers ruffle tho. Like a bunch of ninny pigeons in Central Park...... :lol
Actually most of the Christans I know do not beleive in Creationism in the same way pure creationists interpret it
But rather a hybred of creation and evolution combined.
Which makes a hell of alot more sense then pure creationism.
Unless of course you can show me someone who was born as a burning bush. LMAO
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Agreed, Dred.
I firmly believe in evolution. There's too much evidence, some of it even testable in some degrees (look at how selective breeding of livestock has changed in "only" a thousand years. Modern chickens are something like, 20-30 times more productive than the best egg-layers of medieval times) that life is changing and developing, even among humans. The fossil record is so incomplete we may never find the definitive "missing link," but there's enough supporting evidence to know that it IS out there somewhere.
But that DOESN'T necessarily rule out the possibility of God getting the ball rolling by putting the mechanisms that allow evolution to HAPPEN in place.
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Has Obama or Biden EVER held a real working job? I mean they both live in mansions with staff taking care of their every need, yet they spout off that they represent the regular working people of this country. Now the Democrats are taking shots at Palin saying she doesn't have the "experiance" to lead this country if McCain died in office.
Personally I would trust her over everyone else to run this country based on everything I've read about her. She's one hell of allot more qualified than Obama could even hope to be. A Mayor and a Govenor have allot more responsiblity on their shoulders to lead a community or a state than a Senator would EVER have and Obama's 140 some odd days in office before he started running is a freaking joke.
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A buddy of mine said....
"She impresses the heck out of me. And lately, I've not been one easily impressed by much of anyone."
Amen to that! Have been feeling very much the same way. Really liked her acceptance speach as well.
Check out this photo of her mom and dad watching. I like the wall!
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a202/TurkeyHunter65/Palin_Sarah37.jpg)
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Wrong answer thumpy.
Freedom "OF" religion. To choose of your own FREEWILL!
Back to school for you.
LOL
wrong
what does freedom of religion mean exactly to you?
If you believe it- it must be right - so now I need to make sure all schoolchildren believe it too? Is that your stance?
Wrong country and wrong political belief...sounds more like communism -- now go wash your hands
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Agreed, Dred.
I firmly believe in evolution. There's too much evidence, some of it even testable in some degrees (look at how selective breeding of livestock has changed in "only" a thousand years. Modern chickens are something like, 20-30 times more productive than the best egg-layers of medieval times) that life is changing and developing, even among humans. The fossil record is so incomplete we may never find the definitive "missing link," but there's enough supporting evidence to know that it IS out there somewhere.
But that DOESN'T necessarily rule out the possibility of God getting the ball rolling by putting the mechanisms that allow evolution to HAPPEN in place.
Applause
Actually I think that this was exactly Carl Sagan's point also
Just don't shove it down my throat - if there are pearly gates to deal with..its my concern-no one elses..
Its ok to discuss your beliefs with me and my children...just don't force feed it to my children in school because that is what you want...
(You - does not refer to Saxman - just a metaphorical -you-)
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Dred what you just wrote makes a ton of sense and by that reasoning Palin IS the perfect choice to bring in that independant middle of the road voter.
Think about it like this. I'm an independant middle of the road voter and I think this woman is awsome. She isn't a career politician, she's a working mom with a real life who saw how bad things were screwed up in her home state so she ran for office, won, and promptly started getting rid of all the crooked state officials that were causing all the problems, even people within her own party. How many of us middle of the road indepandants haven't had the desire to do the exact same thing she has done for the exact same reason?
I believe she is going to appeal to a big majority of that independant middle of the road crowd because of who she is, how she lives her life, and because for the first time we actually have a choice to put someone "just like us" in the white house as the XO that actually stands a chance of making it.
I wish she was running by herself for President. I'd vote for her just because she IS just a regular person who has had a bunch of different jobs, and has actually WORKED for a living along with her husband, just like the rest of us working stiffs. I think she just clinched it for McCain once people get to know her and realize they can put someone that can really relate to the average American into the second highest office in the Nation.
You may just get your wish anyway if McCain wins. As I predict the geezer kicks the bucket before the end of his first term.
One of the problems I have with Mccain for me is I can in no way shape or form relate to him.
Not a single thing in his life can I relate to. Other then his father being in the service at the time of his birth. Born a military brat. Went to largely high end private schools, Military acadamy (where he graduated at the bottom of his class) I can respect his stint in the armed forces. but that was a long long time ago.
Wait. there is one thing we have in common. We both know what its like to have guns stuck in our faces on several occasions by unsavory people and not knowing if we would be alive 30 seconds from then.
But outside of that
Has had several wives before finally settling on a money bag.
He's never known what its like to be out of work, Refused work because of race or presumed nationality.
He has nothing in common with the common man. And more specifically...ME.
::edit:: forgot to finish with what I indended to say.
for his sake I hope she is as you discribe. One of us.
Her downside would be if her views are too conservative.
If so. then regardless of how much like us she is. He might as well have picked someone from Washington.
Im as tired of the right wing as I am from the left.
I want someone "Like us" who is more middle of the road and actually makes and has common sense.
Hard to see that happening from someone with very conservative or liberal views who has shared the same experiences as the common person.
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Agreed, Dred.
But that DOESN'T necessarily rule out the possibility of God getting the ball rolling by putting the mechanisms that allow evolution to HAPPEN in place.
We tend to know and refer to them as scientific laws
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LOL... two failed assumptions there RPM, most of us don't even fit the 'conservative right' mold.... seems to me the majority here is the same as the majority 'out there'... middle of the road citizens with more than a little disdain for political hacks regardless of 'party' affiliation. And none of us are shy about taking a dump in either party's cream of wheat.
;)
Hang, if you think this board is anywhere near middle of the road, your nuts. I'm about as middle of the road as it comes and I'm considered one of the far left. The imbalance is normal considering this is a war sim. There is a fair amount of Libertarians here tho.
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Has Obama or Biden EVER held a real working job? I mean they both live in mansions with staff taking care of their every need, yet they spout off that they represent the regular working people of this country. Now the Democrats are taking shots at Palin saying she doesn't have the "experiance" to lead this country if McCain died in office.
a) At least Obama only has one house, compared to McCain's SEVEN
b) Yes, Obama did work in a law firm before he went into politics
c) I may be wrong here, but I honestly do not think that Palin has the necessary foreign policy experience to lead this country. I'm not disputing what she has done during her time in office, because I don't know enough about it to argue that case.
What has Obama, or for that matter Biden, actually run as a chief executive? Obama wasn't even a senator for 150 days before he took the rest of his term off to run for President. Palin, on the other hand, served a full term as a mayor, and is into her THIRD YEAR (took oath of office in 2006, it is now 2008) as governor of a state, and she HAS NOT been gone from Alaska for most all of 2006, 2007, and 2008, like Obama has been gone from the Senate. Further, she's held REAL jobs, she has a SOLID voting record, and her stated positions match her voting record.
Obama was President of the Harvard Law Review magazine, which is very impressive. Also, what you just said about her (near?) constant presence in Alaska highlights that she really doesn't seem qualified in Foreign policy enough to lead this country.
<S>
Yossarian
P.S. rpm, well said
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I'll put it this way. For instance, if John McCain croaked (died) while in office do you think she is qualified or even able to lead this country? She is a governor of Alaska, which coincidentally has more reindeer than people(I stole that line, but oh well). She is on her first term as governor of Alaska. At least Obama actually made it to Washington and represented one of the most populated states in the union. She is not by a longshot a qualified candidate.
twenty - by your definition of what makes a qualified canditate then George Washington wasnt qualified to be president, neither was Jefferson, Adams, Taylor, or Grant... probably a few others
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c) I may be wrong here, but I honestly do not think that Palin has the necessary foreign policy experience to lead this country. I'm not disputing what she has done during her time in office, because I don't know enough about it to argue that case.
What makes Palin less qualified than Obama?
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did i mention that i really like her as V.P.? :aok
cause i wasn't sure :huh
I'm pretty sure no one cares.
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for his sake I hope she is as you discribe. One of us.
Her downside would be if her views are too conservative.
If so. then regardless of how much like us she is. He might as well have picked someone from Washington.
Im as tired of the right wing as I am from the left.
I want someone "Like us" who is more middle of the road and actually makes and has common sense.
Hard to see that happening from someone with very conservative or liberal views who has shared the same experiences as the common person.
If all she does is clean the place up a bit, she'll be the most remarkable chief executive OR VP in history. We all share one common value... corrupt politicians have to go and corporate looting of american citizens must stop.
It's the best possible place to start...
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Actually most of the Christans I know do not beleive in Creationism in the same way pure creationists interpret it
But rather a hybred of creation and evolution combined.
Which makes a hell of alot more sense then pure creationism.
Unless of course you can show me someone who was born as a burning bush. LMAO
That just cracks me up. I am a Christian and I don't know a single Christian that believes as you just stated. Not one. Christianity is based on the Bible, how one can call oneself a Christian and then disbelieve all or parts of the Book the entire faith is based on is beyond my comprehension. :)
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That just cracks me up. I am a Christian and I don't know a single Christian that believes as you just stated. Not one. Christianity is based on the Bible, how one can call oneself a Christian and then disbelieve all or parts of the Book the entire faith is based on is beyond my comprehension. :)
Agreed!
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That just cracks me up. I am a Christian and I don't know a single Christian that believes as you just stated. Not one. Christianity is based on the Bible, how one can call oneself a Christian and then disbelieve all or parts of the Book the entire faith is based on is beyond my comprehension. :)
Elfie, when the towlies round us up and start us on diggin the pits they'll bury us in, they won't discriminate between your version of Christianity or mine. ;)
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That just cracks me up. I am a Christian and I don't know a single Christian that believes as you just stated. Not one. Christianity is based on the Bible, how one can call oneself a Christian and then disbelieve all or parts of the Book the entire faith is based on is beyond my comprehension. :)
One can be a bible literalist or one can believe that the bible is written to pass broad concepts to a scientifically illiterate people.
For instance one could believe that Adam from a bucket of dirt is tantamount to the first life form being spontaneously produced from the primordial ooze. That producing Eve from Adam's rib is a literary device that describes cellular division.
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That just cracks me up. I am a Christian and I don't know a single Christian that believes as you just stated. Not one. Christianity is based on the Bible, how one can call oneself a Christian and then disbelieve all or parts of the Book the entire faith is based on is beyond my comprehension. :)
Its not that they disbelieve in creation.
They just do not agree with the same interpretation that pure creationists have.
Most I know agree we were created in gods spiritual image. Not the physical one.
If you want to go by the bible.
The only time god physically appeared to anyone was to Moses. Where he appeared as a burning bush.
I dont know about you. but I've never personally seen a person that looked like a burning bush unless they set themselves on fire.
It is only mans arrogance that has us believe we look alike in the physical sense.
And Jesus was not God.
He was the son of God.
If he were God. He sure liked to talk to himself alot.
Evolution is really nothing more then adaptation over a long period of time.
Happens to animals all the time. They adapt to their environment and surroundings.
Just as we have adapted
You can see it in people from around the world in differing climates.
Its pretty safe to say that the proverbial Adam,Eve and perhaps for some of you Lilith, didnt look Chinese, Japanese, Arabic,Native American,European,Eskimo,black,Jewish etc,etc,etc
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And Jesus was not God.
He was the son of God.
If he were God. He sure liked to talk to himself alot.
The Holy Trinity is made up of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
It is three yet it is one.
Three facets of one being perhaps...
But back to the thread.
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I'm about as middle of the road as it comes and I'm considered one of the far left.
You are nowhere near the middle of the road I travel down in life. Most of the people I come across in life can best be described as fiscal conservatives and social moderates.
From what I gather you are neither. I may be wrong...this bbs is a terrible place to truly measure folks, however, here I gather your a good person.
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Elfie, when the towlies round us up and start us on diggin the pits they'll bury us in, they won't discriminate between your version of Christianity or mine. ;)
Very true, they will hate us all equally. ;)
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The only time god physically appeared to anyone was to Moses. Where he appeared as a burning bush.
That would be incorrect as well. ;)
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That would be incorrect as well. ;)
Ok enlighten me
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Further, she's held REAL jobs, she has a SOLID voting record, and her stated positions match her voting record.
Too bad her running mate has none of those qualities, which is what really counts.
VP choice matters little, and in this case, did nothing to "court the middle" (Independents, such as myself). All McBush has done is shore up his base, (all you ultra-conservatives will be in the voter booth with your pants down thinking of Palin with an AR-15, hunting moose with only boots on) which, honestly, does nothing to win this election for him. This is the biggest political gamble in modern history. Most women are not going to vote for the repub ticket simply because there's a woman on it, and that is what McBush was counting on.
All that McBush succeeded in doing was making everyone go ...."Who?". Two days, and she's a non-issue in this ADD ridden country.
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One can be a bible literalist or one can believe that the bible is written to pass broad concepts to a scientifically illiterate people.
For instance one could believe that Adam from a bucket of dirt is tantamount to the first life form being spontaneously produced from the primordial ooze. That producing Eve from Adam's rib is a literary device that describes cellular division.
Not to Hijack, Holden, but that implies that Someone with an extremely advanced knowledge for that time period wrote those passages' of the bible, for a lot of biological science did not get that far until the 19th century...
I do agree with the bible passing concepts, though. The ten commandments, all of the passages within the different books of the bible, are actually a framework for most succesful societies, and is the basis for many nation's laws and social mores.
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The Holy Trinity is made up of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
It is three yet it is one.
Three facets of one being perhaps...
But back to the thread.
Depends on which Christain religeon.
Not all Believe God and Jesus were one and the same.
Course its all a matter of faith which is right.
And believing strongly in something doesn't automatically mean its the right belief.
And with so many different beliefs. Who is to say which is the right one?
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Hang, if you think this board is anywhere near middle of the road, your nuts. I'm about as middle of the road as it comes and I'm considered one of the far left. The imbalance is normal considering this is a war sim. There is a fair amount of Libertarians here tho.
No kidding RPM. I'm flamed every second post. I'm a registered Independent, firmly support the 2nd ammendment......and still members of this board call me a liberal consistantly.
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Quote from: Captain Virgil Hilts on Yesterday at 09:45:18 PM
Further, she's held REAL jobs, she has a SOLID voting record, and her stated positions match her voting record.
Too bad her running mate has none of those qualities, which is what really counts.
-The military is not a real job?- did you really want to say that?
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Not to Hijack, Holden, but that implies that Someone with an extremely advanced knowledge for that time period wrote those passages' of the bible, for a lot of biological science did not get that far until the 19th century...
The believer would then counter, "I would think that God has extremely advanced biological knowledge and since the bible is the word of God, this implication is understandable."
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Too bad her running mate has none of those qualities, which is what really counts.
VP choice matters little, and in this case, did nothing to "court the middle" (Independents, such as myself). All McBush has done is shore up his base, (all you ultra-conservatives will be in the voter booth with your pants down thinking of Palin with an AR-15, hunting moose with only boots on) which, honestly, does nothing to win this election for him. This is the biggest political gamble in modern history. Most women are not going to vote for the repub ticket simply because there's a woman on it, and that is what McBush was counting on.
All that McBush succeeded in doing was making everyone go ...."Who?". Two days, and she's a non-issue in this ADD ridden country.
I woulda pointed out that in the race for the Democratic primary, gender lost out to race.
Besides, McCain choosing a woman to run as VP tends' to show a more-liberal-than-might-be-tolerated McCain; If a woman was such a hot ticket in the Election, Hillary Clinton would have won the DNC nomination, not Obama. And she won't change who/what McCain is, and that is what is possibly the most disliked GOP candidate of the entire 2008 election. The GOP could have put people up there that were better suited than anything they offered this time, IMO.
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For instance one could believe that Adam from a bucket of dirt is tantamount to the first life form being spontaneously produced from the primordial ooze. That producing Eve from Adam's rib is a literary device that describes cellular division.
Genesis chapter 1, the story of Creation. Hardly sounds like Adam was the first primordial ooze:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Gen 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth put forth grass, herbs yielding seed, and fruit-trees bearing fruit after their kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, herbs yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit, wherein is the seed thereof, after their kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:13 And there was evening and there was morning, a third day.
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years:
Gen 1:15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made the two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Gen 1:21 And God created the great sea-monsters, and every living creature that moveth, wherewith the waters swarmed, after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.
Gen 1:23 And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.
Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind, cattle, and creeping things, and beasts of the earth after their kind: and it was so.
Gen 1:25 And God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creepeth upon the ground after its kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them: and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for food:
Gen 1:30 and to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the heavens, and to everything that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for food: and it was so.
Gen 1:31 And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.
More specific on the creation of Man from chapter 2:
Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
And the creation of woman from chapter 2 as well:
Gen 2:18 And Jehovah God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a help meet for him.
Gen 2:19 And out of the ground Jehovah God formed every beast of the field, and every bird of the heavens; and brought them unto the man to see what he would call them: and whatsoever the man called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
Gen 2:20 And the man gave names to all cattle, and to the birds of the heavens, and to every beast of the field; but for man there was not found a help meet for him.
Gen 2:21 And Jehovah God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof:
Gen 2:22 and the rib, which Jehovah God had taken from the man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
Gen 2:23 And the man said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Gen 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Adam and Eve also had children, the most famous of which are Cain and Able. Doesn't sound like celluar division to me. ;)
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Figures this thread would devolve into a bible class. You freaks just can't do a thing unless it's in that book of yours. :rolleyes:
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I'm not going to continue to participate in the hijack of this thread, my apologies for my participation thus far. :salute
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Adam and Eve also had children, the most famous of which are Cain and Able. Doesn't sound like celluar division to me. ;)
So I'll put you down in the Jerry Fawell/Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker/Oral Roberts literal camp then?
As for her being a good pick, I hadn't heard of her before this morning. Tough to tell.
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The believer would then counter, "I would think that God has extremely advanced biological knowledge and since the bible is the word of God, this implication is understandable."
A scientist approach to that argument might be, "Why then, could he have not imparted that knowledge to us, to help us grow food, to help us heal our sick? Why not, if he loves us so? Especially, if he made us capable of learning these feats ourselves, anyway?"
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So I'll put you down in the Jerry Fawell/Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker/Oral Roberts literal camp then?
I would not associate myself or my beliefs with any of those except perhaps Jerry Falwell. Mr. Falwell taught the principles of the Bible and lived his life accordingly without making a mockery of them. I cannot say the same for the others you mentioned.
I won't respond to further posts like this in this thread.
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I woulda pointed out that in the race for the Democratic primary, gender lost out to race.
Besides, McCain choosing a woman to run as VP tends' to show a more-liberal-than-might-be-tolerated McCain; If a woman was such a hot ticket in the Election, Hillary Clinton would have won the DNC nomination, not Obama. And she won't change who/what McCain is, and that is what is possibly the most disliked GOP candidate of the entire 2008 election. The GOP could have put people up there that were better suited than anything they offered this time, IMO.
Agreed. He may actually be doing more damage than helping his chances, overall.
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You do realize that with a few adjustments in order Genesis more or less follows the scientifically accepted progression of the creation of the earth and appearance of humanity, right?
Bible:
Let there be Light
Creation of the Heavens
Creation of Earth
Creation of the Seas
Creation of plant life
Creation of the Sun and Moon
Creation of sea life and birds
Creation of terrestrial life
Creation of Man
Science
Big Bang (what do you think a tremendous explosion generates? LIGHT! And lots of it!)
Creation of the Universe (heavens)
Formation of stars (including our sun)
Formation of the Earth and other planets/terrestrial bodies
Formation of the Moon
Appearance of water on earth (MAY have occurred before the formation of the Moon)
Development and evolution of life (sea, land and air)
Appearance of man
As for the naming of things, yeah, man pretty much took care of that, because it's not like God left a field guide lying around for us to find.
The thought that science and religion are incapable of co-existence in one coherent concept is flawed. Science has more than proven much of the how. But what it CAN'T fully answer or explain is the WHY the system developed in such a manner that it works the way it does.
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A scientist approach to that argument might be, "Why then, could he have not imparted that knowledge to us, to help us grow food, to help us heal our sick? Why not, if he loves us so? Especially, if he made us capable of learning these feats ourselves, anyway?"
He has. We just havent evolved to that point yet ;)
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Agreed. He may actually be doing more damage than helping his chances, overall.
I don't know how many democrat votes' he can win over (Here, i'm talking about the disenfranchised Clinton supporters) due to having a woman VP. Many people (sadly) still vote along party lines, and to them, a republican is a republican. Even with Obama's choice of Biden (did he offer it to Clinton, and if he did, did she turn him down?) for a running mate, Obama's not going to lose any voters from the Democrat side of the isle, IMO. He might pick some up, with a(n) older white male seeming to anchor his presidency, to many, keeping it from being too liberal.
Don't get me wrong, this won't win very many republican supporters' away from McCain, even with a woman VP. I think that this election, you might see a strong showing for independents.
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I don't know how many democrat votes' he can win over (Here, i'm talking about the disenfranchised Clinton supporters) due to having a woman VP. Many people (sadly) still vote along party lines, and to them, a republican is a republican. Even with Obama's choice of Biden (did he offer it to Clinton, and if he did, did she turn him down?) for a running mate, Obama's not going to lose any voters from the Democrat side of the isle, IMO. He might pick some up, with a(n) older white male seeming to anchor his presidency, to many, keeping it from being too liberal.
Don't get me wrong, this won't win very many republican supporters' away from McCain, even with a woman VP. I think that this election, you might see a strong showing for independents.
Independents will decide this election, for sure.
I truly don't think Obama offered the position to Clinton. Earlier in the campaign, I think it was a sure thing. The Clintons, in going for the throat, made that an impossibility. Bill, more than Hillary, IMO, made her blacklisted on the ticket to Obama.
I will say this, Biden and Palin debating will not be a thing which will help McCain's cause. He's seriously in the grips of dementia if he thinks she will carry such a debate. Her learning curve on foreing policy and economics is incredibly steep.
In the end, the VP choice only really affects McCain. (he's 72 today...) I don't think he's gaining any support with his choice, only making those who were voting for him anyway, feel just a little more "comfortable".
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Genesis chapter 1, the story of Creation. Hardly sounds like Adam was the first primordial ooze:
More specific on the creation of Man from chapter 2:
And the creation of woman from chapter 2 as well:
Adam and Eve also had children, the most famous of which are Cain and Able. Doesn't sound like celluar division to me. ;)
Elfie
who actually wrote the bible?
I know -it was the hand of god --centuries later guiding the hands--in the old testament.....ok
now
we get to the king james version....at which time ...king james was god...if the monks wanted to eat....and uuuhhh ...stick around for awhile...
You ever play post office as a kid?
story starts on one end...travels around...and suddenly...the same exact story that the first person whispered in the ear of the second...is reiterated....
or.... perhaps some things were changed through misunderstanding, or personal preference or lack of linguistic interpretation....
perhaps...maybe....some things were embellished to scare the crap out of people so that they would behave in a society....or old beliefs ...old...very old ...tribal stories and beliefs were changed as centuries went on ..to become...
The Word of the Lord
genesis story...
A nice story to help provide faith in the just abilities of mankind...there is a promise of fullfillment if you follow some basic rules
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Aww, c'mon. This ain't rocket science.. it's a no brainer. She's hot, shoots, favorite dish is moose pie and corrupt politicians. McCain only had to meet her once (yesterday) and that's all it took to seal the deal.
<slim pickens voice>
"darlin, I'm gonna make you vice president. Then your gonna keep them pesky crooked politicians and lobbyists busy tryin to keep their bent dicks attached while I take care of a little unfinished business with the rooski's and their new buddies in stan-land."
</slim pickens voice>
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Independents will decide this election, for sure.
I truly don't think Obama offered the position to Clinton. Earlier in the campaign, I think it was a sure thing. The Clintons, in going for the throat, made that an impossibility. Bill, more than Hillary, IMO, made her blacklisted on the ticket to Obama.
I will say this, Biden and Palin debating will not be a thing which will help McCain's cause. He's seriously in the grips of dementia if he thinks she will carry such a debate. Her learning curve on foreing policy and economics is incredibly steep.
In the end, the VP choice only really affects McCain. (he's 72 today...) I don't think he's gaining any support with his choice, only making those who were voting for him anyway, feel just a little more "comfortable".
Depends on the debate format.. and what questions are tendered. The media seems to reacting very negatively to her.. whotta surprise. ;)
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Aww, c'mon. This ain't rocket science.. it's a no brainer. She's hot, shoots, favorite dish is moose pie and corrupt politicians. McCain only had to meet her once (yesterday) and that's all it took to seal the deal.
<slim pickens voice>
"darlin, I'm gonna make you vice president. Then your gonna keep them pesky crooked politicians and lobbyists busy tryin to keep their bent dicks attached while I take care of a little unfinished business with the rooski's and their new buddies in stan-land."
</slim pickens voice>
lol what is it with McCain and his little beauty queens, anyway?
I stand by my first statement.... other than being a surprise, she does nothing to the GOP ticket that he couldn't get elsewhere.
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corrupt politicians.
If she can help clean up Washington I'm all for it. The fact that she is easy on the eyes and shoots automatic weapons is not unattractive. ;)
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I will say this, Biden and Palin debating will not be a thing which will help McCain's cause. He's seriously in the grips of dementia if he thinks she will carry such a debate. Her learning curve on foreing policy and economics is incredibly steep.
I don't know about Palin, but Biden is prone to saying stupid things. If he says a stupid thing during a debate, in this day of out of context quotes on you tube, and she just appears intellegent, she could walk away with a debate win.
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Depends on the debate format.. and what questions are tendered. The media seems to reacting very negatively to her.. whotta surprise. ;)
I haven't seen anything overtly negative about her. Just surprise.
You're right....if the debate has questions on PTA conferences, sinking a jumpshot in high school basketball, or "How does it feel coming in second in a beauty pageant?" ...then she's got it locked up.
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I don't know about Palin, but Biden is prone to saying stupid things. If he says a stupid thing during a debate, in this day of out of context quotes on you tube, and she just appears intellegent, she could walk away with a debate win.
If she debates and seems intellegent.... Biden, will therefore look intelligent.
C'mon Holden, Mr. Nitpick. You're usually much better.
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If she can help clean up Washington I'm all for it. The fact that she is easy on the eyes and shoots automatic weapons is not unattractive. ;)
The last two of which are qualities which officials should be elected on. :huh
This isn't high school.
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If she can help clean up Washington I'm all for it. The fact that she is easy on the eyes and shoots automatic weapons is not unattractive. ;)
AND she can drop a moose at 700 yards, run a marathon, roll a spliff, fly a float plane, dines on lawyer flesh, likes drillin...
how the hell can anyone NOT vote for her?
Truth be told, if she had all the same qualifications and looked like rosanne we'd still have no idea she was alive.
;)
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If she debates and seems intellegent.... Biden, will therefore look intelligent.
C'mon Holden, Mr. Nitpick. You're usually much better.
2 pts off for spelling, 6 pts in favor of substance net positive 4 pts my favor
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The last two of which are qualities which officials should be elected on. :huh
This isn't high school.
The only quality I mentioned that she shouldn't be elected on is her good looks. The fact that she shoots automatic weapons means she supports the 2nd Amendment (she also hunts, which also indicates she supports the 2nd) which to me is an important issue.
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The only quality I mentioned that she shouldn't be elected on is her good looks. The fact that she shoots automatic weapons means she supports the 2nd Amendment (she also hunts, which also indicates she supports the 2nd) which to me is an important issue.
Oh yea... did I mention; she's an NRA Lifetime member.
hehehehhe... cripes, it's all most too good.
Whadaya wanna bet she turns out to be a fembot?
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I haven't seen anything overtly negative about her. Just surprise.
You're right....if the debate has questions on PTA conferences, sinking a jumpshot in high school basketball, or "How does it feel coming in second in a beauty pageant?" ...then she's got it locked up.
If sayng change the most times qualifies as substance, the lefties, not the middle of the roaders, have it sewn up.
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2 pts off for spelling, 6 pts in favor of substance net positive 4 pts my favor
LOL. :aok
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Oh yea... did I mention; she's an NRA Lifetime member.
hehehehhe... cripes, it's all most too good.
Like I said before, McCain hit a Grand Slam with this pick imo. :rock
PS....I purposely didn't quote the rest of your post because I refuse to let you ruin this in any way for me right now. :D
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Like I said before, McCain hit a Grand Slam with this pick imo. :rock
I think the democrats are pissed, always a good sign.
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I think the democrats are pissed, always a good sign.
Normally I would say that about both the Republicans and Democrats simply because both parties are so screwed up. I'm making an exception for her. ;)
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I was going to vote the anti messiah vote anyway, this just makes it pure fun :) plus it gives the wife and daughter vote so much more flesh to chew on......
Voting Barak/biden just became a whole lot more controversial and problematic. Here is a WOMAN that actually has values
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t81j_Aup4fo
Her acceptance speech on youtube.
What is not to like about this woman? She is for cutting wasteful spending, cutting property taxes, fights corruption and holds the corrupt accountable, stopped the bridge to nowhere, life member of the NRA.
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Ok.. Obama had 2 years in the senate.. how many republican and democrat crooks has he rubbed shoulders with, identified, revealed, exposed? How many of their heads are now mounted on his wall? How many corporations has he called to task? How many ethics bills has he introduced? Just how wide a swath has he cut in the halls of the corrupt?
Care to ask that question regarding the Govenor of Alaska?
No clue where you guys keep coming up with Obama not having enough experience I guess it's another Fox news thing. Obama has a very long history on the state level and has 12 years of political experience, which was twice as much as what George Bush had when he was elected to office and pretty much right in the same ballpark as most other US presidents with the exception of Bush Sr. Quite ironic that it is Bush Jr who has had the least amount of experience before taking office.
George W. Bush: At time of his election in 2000, total of 6 years experience in government, all state.
George Bush Sr: At time of his election as VP in 1980 had 25 years experience in government, both state and federal.
Ronald Reagan: At time of his election in 1980, total of 8 years experience in government, all state.
Jimmy Carter: At time of his election in 1976, total of 10 years experience in government, all state.
John F. Kennedy: At time of his election in 1960, total of 12 years experience in government, all federal.
Richard Nixon: At time of his election in 1968, total of 12 years experience in government, all federal.
Barack Obama: Total of 12 years experience in government, both state and federal.
Bill Clinton: At time of his election in 1992, total of 14 years experience in government, all state.
Franklin Delano Roosevelt: At time of his election in 1932, total of 14 years experience in government, both state and federal.
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I guess it's another Fox news thing.
give the conservatives one singular news source against the 5 entrenched communists news sourses and you obama MBLA lovers jump off the scale!
Eff off comes to mind :O
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Ok... I'll ask the question again. This time using your numbers.
Obama has 12 years in the state and federal government.. how many republican and democrat crooks has he rubbed shoulders with, identified, revealed, exposed? How many of their heads are now mounted on his wall? How many corporations has he called to task? How many ethics bills has he introduced? Just how wide a swath has he cut in the halls of the corrupt?
Care to ask that question regarding the Governor of Alaska?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t81j_Aup4fo
Her acceptance speech on youtube.
What is not to like about this woman? She is for cutting wasteful spending, cutting property taxes, fights corruption and holds the corrupt accountable, stopped the bridge to nowhere, life member of the NRA.
I give her props on the fighting corruption stuff there are very few of those type of politicians around and we need many more that are willing to do it. The kicker for me with her is the fact she heavy on the Religious stuff and panders to the Religious Right. That is a deal ender right there regardless of anything else she has done. I could care less if she is religious but she needs to keep it out of the office, something that she isn't going to do.
"Separation of Church & State" it's not just a catchy phrase it's part of our constitution.
As a side note looks like there is already another internet rumor floating around about her in regards to her family. I'm not going to say what it is, because IMO if it's true it should be a family matter, but if it turns out to be true she will be dead in the eyes of the Religious Right.
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give the conservatives one singular news source against the 5 entrenched communists news sourses and you obama MBLA lovers jump off the scale!
Eff off comes to mind :O
I don't care if it's a news source that caters to the Right or the Left.. it's when they are working behind the scenes to make the news how they want to promote it.. Well that's when they become nothing more than propaganda. No other news station do you see all the ancors and various talk show hosts all useing the same planted "catch phrases" like you see on Fox News.
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I give her props on the fighting corruption stuff there are very few of those type of politicians around and we need many more that are willing to do it. The kicker for me with her is the fact she heavy on the Religious stuff and panders to the Religious Right. That is a deal ender right there regardless of anything else she has done. I could care less if she is religious but she needs to keep it out of the office, something that she isn't going to do.
"Separation of Church & State" it's not just a catchy phrase it's part of our constitution.
As a side note looks like there is already another internet rumor floating around about her in regards to her family. I'm not going to say what it is, because IMO if it's true it should be a family matter, but if it turns out to be true she will be dead in the eyes of the Religious Right.
Yah gotta come clean. Go ahead spill it.. if your shy, post the link. We can take it. Show us whatcha got!
I double-dog dare yah. ;)
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No clue where you guys keep coming up with Obama not having enough experience I guess it's another Fox news thing.
It'd be nice if people stopped blaming Fox News for being successful.
You lost the biggest example available there crockett.
Experience - as measured by years in office as Vice President, Governor, Senator, Member of the House of Representatives, Cabinet Officer, General, and/or Member of a State Legislature - appears to have no impact on how great a President turns out to be. The consensus choice for greatest President (Lincoln) was arguably the least experienced man to take the office, while the man with the most experience (Buchanan) was one of the worst Presidents ever.
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Ok... I'll ask the question again. This time using your numbers.
Obama has 12 years in the state and federal government.. how many republican and democrat crooks has he rubbed shoulders with, identified, revealed, exposed? How many of their heads are now mounted on his wall? How many corporations has he called to task? How many ethics bills has he introduced? Just how wide a swath has he cut in the halls of the corrupt?
Care to ask that question regarding the Governor of Alaska?
lol oh so first it's he doesn't have "enough" experience now it's his experience means he has rubbed shoulders with dirty people.. :rofl If that is your whole argument what can you say about McCain? How many dirty crooks has he rubbed shoulders with in his decades of politics.
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lol oh so first it's he doesn't have "enough" experience now it's his experience means he has rubbed shoulders with dirty people.. :rofl If that is your whole argument what can you say about McCain? How many dirty crooks has he rubbed shoulders with in his decades of politics.
bzzzzrt.. we're talkin 'bout the bimbo, not the bozo.
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Yah gotta come clean. Go ahead spill it.. if your shy, post the link. We can take it. Show us whatcha got!
I double-dog dare yah. ;)
Na, it's all rumors at this point and if true it's a family matter IMO. If it ends up being true it will be in the news, so no use of posting about it. If it has legs it will run as they say.
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Na, it's all rumors at this point and if true it's a family matter IMO. If it ends up being true it will be in the news, so no use of posting about it. If it has legs it will run as they say.
Then you shouldn't have brought it up to begin with. ;)
Since you did....
http://www.mahalo.com/Sarah_Palin_Pregnancy_Rumors
When Sarah Palin announced her pregnancy in early-March of 2008, the news came as a surprise to not only the media but to those she worked closely with.1 The secretiveness of the pregnancy and the observations that Palin did not appear to be pregnant in the months prior to her announcement led to rumors that she was covering up for her 16-year-old-daughter Bristol's pregnancy.2
Fast Facts
1. Governor Sarah Palin announced to the media that she was pregnant on March 5, 20081
2. Close staff members learned a few days before the public announcement3
3. Palin was seven months pregnant
4. Said the baby was due in mid-May1
5. Trig Palin was born one month after the announcement on April 18, 2008
Bristol Palin Pregnancy Cover-up Rumors
Shortly after Sarah Palin announced her pregnancy, rumors that she was covering-up for her 16-year-old daughter Bristol's pregnancy, found their way on to the Internet. A message board thread on Reddit featured a post by a user called "Jibegod" who claimed rumors were circulating in Alaska because Bristol reportedly was out of school because she had mono. The writer also contributes the rumor to the observation that Sarah Palin did not appear to be pregnant in photographs. The person who wrote the post said that his speculation was "based mostly upon hearsay."2 The rumors were still being spread into July of 2008. A comment on AndrewHalcro.com referred to rumors on the Anchorage Daily News Blog that were posted in mid-July.4
While trying to do some checking to see if Bristol had in fact been pregnant, I came across 3 youtube vids all of which tried to install software when I clicked to play them, and they were immediately blocked by my security software as *attack sites*. In addition, I could not shut down Firefox or close that tab because every time I tried, the same software tried to install again. I had to shut down Firefox via the task manager in order to navigate away.
With that in mind, along with the bold part, I am going with bogus news on this one for now.
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na I came across that link of the fake tube site as well. That's not where the news came from, guys like that have script that automatically set up pages on popular searches to get installs.
As I said though, it's all rumors at this point but there are a few pictures that make you go humm..
These are both family pictures taken early during the pregnancy would have been early stages.
(http://media.adn.com/smedia/2008/03/09/01/815-3504039.highlight.prod_affiliate.7.jpg)
(http://tizona.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/sarah_palin_02.jpg)
This was a picture taken reportedly either before or after the pregnancy (no date given for the picture).. Notice a difference with the oldest daughter and no tum tum?
(http://bp2.blogger.com/_iCsTjVP3Dng/RpPeNa-YLnI/AAAAAAAAAD0/7ruxEMWgBAM/s400/palin.jpg)
In the same time periods Sarah Palin showed no signs of being pregnant and even her staff had no idea reportedly 7 months into it.
http://www.adn.com/front/story/336402.html
There is also reports that the daughter was out of school for a few months during this time period, but again as I say it's all rumors and no way to prove any of it. If it's true it will undoubtedly come out. If it's a hoax then it will likely just make it's rounds on the net.
My personal opinion is it would likely be pretty hard to fake it, so I think it's likely a hoax which is why I wasn't posting what it was. However the pictures do make you go humm specially when looking at pics of her at the same time periods.
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I like the squirming being done by the 'I love Obama' crowd. :D
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In that last picture it's hard to tell if the oldest daughters stomach is the same as the other pics simply because it's taken from further away and how she is holding her arms.
My first wife didn't *show* very much at all until about the start of her 8th month of pregnancy. By the time she hit the end of that 8th month she had really ballooned out. :uhoh
Until I see something more credible I'm going to stick with the bogus news category.
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In that last picture it's hard to tell if the oldest daughters stomach is the same as the other pics simply because it's taken from further away and how she is holding her arms.
My first wife didn't *show* very much at all until about the start of her 8th month of pregnancy. By the time she hit the end of that 8th month she had really ballooned out. :uhoh
Until I see something more credible I'm going to stick with the bogus news category.
Yea that's the same way I'm looking at it, right now it's just all blogosphere rumor mill stuff, which is why I wasn't gonna post about it. I figured the rumor mill was starting and it would be very hard for anyone to find the info of they were interested.
As a side note, this is a video about the Trooper Firing issue..Seems like she has contradicted her self even on video with this deal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UojMnCgqVA
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"Separation of Church & State" it's not just a catchy phrase it's part of our constitution.
"Separation of Church & State" is just a catchy phrase and it is not found in Constitution.
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I thought it was an insult to women voters. Simply because it looks like a cheap political trick to get women votes that would/might of gone to Hillary. Problem is McCain she's too pretty! Women hate to see the pretty girl do well.
<S....-Gixer
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Even if the pregnancy thing were true....so what?
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"Separation of Church & State" is just a catchy phrase and it is not found in Constitution.
umm ok it's in the 1st amendment, if you want to be that picky.
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Even if the pregnancy thing were true....so what?
If this is true there are two very different sides of the same coin. I would say if she wasn't so big on the Pro Life & no pre marriage sex stuff then it likely wouldn't be a big deal. However she is, so this could be a very big deal if it turns out to be true.
On one side you could say, it was her family's decision to do what they thought was best for their family in a private matter. This is a reasonable line of thinking.
On the flip side this women is running on family values, pro life, no sex before marriage and all the goody two shoes stuff. One could assume that having her daughter at the age of 16 get pregnant unmarried, might be bad for her political career. This would mean she could have hiding the fact that her family fell into the same trap she is running against and preaching to others about and hiding it for possible political gain. This line of thinking is also reasonable and would mean her credibility is blown in a Bill Clintonish style.
Both lines of thinking are reasonable IMO.
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Both lines of thinking are reasonable IMO.
They are only reasonable if an unsubstantiated rumor is true. The only 'proof' is that somebody typed it in a blog. Hardly worth even mentioning let alone speculating about.
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umm ok it's in the 1st amendment, if you want to be that picky.
Really?
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
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As a side note, this is a video about the Trooper Firing issue..Seems like she has contradicted her self even on video with this deal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UojMnCgqVA
At this point in time it looks like a he said/she said deal.
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Really?
Yes really.. that was the basis for separation of church and state.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state
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From your own link.....
The phrase separation of church and state is generally traced to a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to the Danbury Baptists, in which he referred to the First Amendment to the United States Constitution as creating a "wall of separation" between church and state. The phrase was then quoted by the United States Supreme Court first in 1878, and then in a series of cases starting in 1947. This led to increased popular and political discussion of the concept.
Under the United States Constitution, the treatment of religion by the government is broken into two clauses: the establishment clause and the free exercise clause. While both are discussed in the context of the separation of church and state, it is more often discussed in regard to whether certain state actions would amount to an impermissible government establishment of religion.
Notice it doesn't say that separation of church and state is actually in the Constitution. Notice the part in bold, that is what the first part of the 1st Amendment is about, a government established religion such as the Church of England.
Unlike the 2nd Amendment, (where there are many private and public documents supporting an individual right) there is only the one document from Jefferson to support the Separation of Church and State interpretation. One document isn't enough imo.
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From your own link.....
Notice it doesn't say that separation of church and state is actually in the Constitution. Notice the part in bold, that is what the first part of the 1st Amendment is about, a government established religion such as the Church of England.
Unlike the 2nd Amendment, (where there are many private and public documents supporting an individual right) there is only the one document from Jefferson to support the Separation of Church and State interpretation. One document isn't enough imo.
It's more than enough for me...I don't care if people want to praise jesus or buda or space aliens in a volcano. However they just need to keep it out of the govt. This country was founded on freedom of religion and the ability to practice the religion of your choice. It wasn't founded to have the popular religion of the day mixed into the govt. You can not have freedom of religion for all people if you decide one religious belief is better or more important than another one.
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I call BS on the pregnancy "scandal." The child has Down's Syndrome, which is a condition that is almost exclusively afflicted upon the chidren of women who give birth after they pass the age of 35.
You're really reaching on this one Crockett.
By the way, the citizens of the United States have always voted their religious convictions, or lack thereof, during the nation's elections. The complaining about it, however, is almost solely confined to the last two decades. People will vote their convictions, which are shaped by family influences, friends, education, and religious training. Good luck trying to separate them from any of those.
Trying to get people to leave their religious beliefs behind when they go to the polls is like urinating into the wind; it's just gonna come back on ya.
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One document does not establish intent by the founders. If there were multiple documents then I would agree with you.
The use of the Jefferson letter by the SC just might be the first time the SC legislated from the bench, although I'm sure Toad can and will correct me if I am wrong on that account. :D
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The child has Down's Syndrome
Seriously? :(
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Obama's speech was full of generic democratic party sound bites. Almost nothing new, that hadn't already been stated by Clinton, Gore, Kerry, and others: "We're going to take our country back!
Did you listen to the whole thing?
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I call BS on the pregnancy "scandal." The child has Down's Syndrome, which is a condition that is almost exclusively afflicted upon the chidren of women who give birth after they pass the age of 35.
That isn't entirely accurate.....women over 35 are just more likely to have a baby with down syndrome.
http://www.marchofdimes.com/professionals/14332_1214.asp?gclid=CKWqk7PFtZUCFRs-awod5nruRA
Does the risk of Down syndrome increase with the mother's age? Yes. The risk of Down syndrome increases from about 1 in 1,250 at age 25, to 1 in 1,000 at age 30, 1 in 400 at age 35, 1 in 100 at age 40 and 1 in 30 at age 45 (6). Women over age 35 have been traditionally considered most likely to have a baby with Down syndrome. However, about 80 percent of babies with Down syndrome are born to women who are under age 35, as younger women have far more babies (2).
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"Separation of Church & State" it's not just a catchy phrase it's part of our constitution.
Not the one that's in the National Archives. Maybe there's another tucked in a drawer someplace.
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Hap, I listened to every single, utterly predictable word. I heard nothing that I hadn't already heard a hundred times from almost every member of the far left. The things he has promised to do are just repackaged versions of the promises made by previous democratic contenders.
If you look at his voting record (Here...I'll loan ya my magnifying glass.) it simply reinforces that image of him as an ultra liberal. An ultra liberal will always find it tough to get elected, simply because the extremism of their views do not play will in Peoria. He cannot claim to be a moderate or a maverick who will cross the aisle to shake hands with and craft deals with the Republicans because he has no record of doing so.
McCain, on the other hand, DOES have the reputation of being a maverick. That's one reason why his pick of Palin as his VP running mate has been such a coup.....it shores up his support amongst conservatives who have been miffed at him for abandoning conservative principles upon occasion to work with democrats on bills he deemed too important to allow to languish.
Elfie...no offense, because none is intended...but I think you're splitting hairs on my statement about Down's Syndrome. There is, indeed, a small chance that Palin's daughter gave birth to a child with Down's Syndrome. But the reality is that it is FAR more likely that the facts are what they appear to be....that the child was born to the Governor and not her daughter.
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Yes really.. that was the basis for separation of church and state.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state
Quoting "wiki". :rolleyes: It's like dragging out that blog crap.
There is NO clause creating "separation of church and state". There IS a clause that forbids ESTABLISHING a religion. It means you cannot have a STATE RELIGION. It was written to prevent there being a "Church of the U.S.A., because they knew how bad a problem the "Church of England" was.
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No kidding RPM. I'm flamed every second post. I'm a registered Independent, firmly support the 2nd ammendment......and still members of this board call me a liberal consistantly.
All the MSNBC journalists are registered Independents also ;), but seriously, you tend to say a LOT of things that someone from my side of the fence would ascribe to a liberal. <That aside, I believe you were spot-on about Brad13 :aok>
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Elfie...no offense, because none is intended...but I think you're splitting hairs on my statement about Down's Syndrome. There is, indeed, a small chance that Palin's daughter gave birth to a child with Down's Syndrome. But the reality is that it is FAR more likely that the facts are what they appear to be....that the child was born to the Governor and not her daughter.
No offense taken. I agree with that bolded part, I'm also thinking I may have misinterpreted your original intent. :)
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:aok
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Just heard, Palin vetoed three HUNDRED spending proposals last year....that's about 299 more than Bush in 7 years
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Just heard, Palin vetoed three HUNDRED spending proposals last year....that's about 299 more than Bush in 7 years
Palin is all for cutting wasteful spending......I just wish my wife was more like her. :cry
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Elfie, considering Sarah Palin is 44, her chances of having a child with Down's Syndrome are, by your numbers, somewhere between 1 in 100 for the age of 40, and 1 in 30 at the age of 45.
In this day and age, a child being born to a young girl, outside of marriage, is nothing uncommon at all. While certainly in direct contrast to a "family values" plank in a political platform, it isn't sufficient to end political aspirations, for the parent of the child giving birth or even the child giving birth. Two or three decades ago, maybe. It would be so difficult to do a really good job of faking it, it wouldn't be worth the risk. But then, sometimes people get really stupid, even if they are really smart. It's not beyond the realm of possibility for the rumor to be true. However, it is just as likely that early testing revealed the Down's Syndrome, and since it is not uncommon for Down's Syndrome babies to be miscarried, it is very likely that the Governor's pregnancy was kept VERY quiet.
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One document does not establish intent by the founders. If there were multiple documents then I would agree with you.
The use of the Jefferson letter by the SC just might be the first time the SC legislated from the bench, although I'm sure Toad can and will correct me if I am wrong on that account. :D
Considering it was Thomas Jefferson who wrote the letter in question about the intent of the 1st Amendment, well I'll take his word on it. I'll also take James Madison's word on it because he wrote much of the 1st amendment and is considered the father of our constitution. He had pretty much the same view as TJ..
“The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries.” James Maddision 1803
That's two.. how many more you need?
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Elfie, considering Sarah Palin is 44, her chances of having a child with Down's Syndrome are, by your numbers, somewhere between 1 in 100 for the age of 40, and 1 in 30 at the age of 45.
Actually those figures are from the March of Dimes, I figure they know a bit more about it than I do. :D
I agree with the rest of your post. To add to that, it really makes no sense to me to have a mother fake a pregnancy to protect her daughter especially a mother in the public eye as much as a governor is. There is just to much risk of exposure involved.
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What's VPLIF mean?
Here's my take the day after the Palin announcement as if I were working for either campaign.
If I worked for the Dem's, I'd be overjoyed because those in charge of the Repub ticket lost the "not enough experience" argument against my guy. I'd hammer away on Bush = McCain. Republicans = big brother imposing their rules about abortion and marriage. I'd hammer away at Repubs being reckless war mongers (see Pat Buchanan's latest essay on his website). I'd hammer away that the Repubs have ruined your kids future with how they have run the war on terror. Gazillions down the drain. They will tax the middle and lower classes into docile submission while enriching the upper and uber classes. They need someone to sell them their large order of fries and Wal Mart products. I'd watch hurricane season. If FEMA is able look like its on-top of stuff this time, I'll accuse them of malfeasance during Katrina. I'd hammer away on the new world order where worker are slaves and war becomes a way of doing business with neo-cons running the show. I'd hammer away on the American Republic (take a Buchanan argument) because it's there for the taking.
If I worked for the Repubs, I'd not be overjoyed. I would want the no experience argument. So now, I'll hammer, hammer, hammer, 24/7 on TV all the Rev Wright anti-white racist and anti-American thing nonstop. I'd hammer away on abortion and gay marriage. I'd hammer away on guns. It'll be character, character, character. I'd get Exxon to spend some of their billions on my ads, nonstop. (Can Exxon do that?) I'd make an Obama/Biden presidency look like taking money out of your pocket, ending your lifestyle and giving it to them: the homosexuals, immigrants, and women. I'd make McCain and Palin look like the Pop and Mom of America. (sidelight: a woman in the white house if Repubs win this time??) I'd paint the Dems as anti God and guns. I'd make them appear to value things that abhors a majority of Americans.
I think that's what the next two months will look like.
The winner will be?? I've said no way Dems win with Obama on the ticket because American won't elect a black man. I don't think McCain helped himself. At least at this juncture.
2 months is a long time. If a good portion of the public falls in love with Palin, and McCain convinces a good portion of American that he won't follow Bush's spending and conduct the war on terror better (don't know how based on what he has said), Repubs win. Oh, if Osama Bin Laden is found and executed, Repubs win.
I did not think this race would be as close as the last two. Now, barring Bin Laden's execution, it will be just as close as the last two, I'm guessing.
For Dems to win, here's what needs to happen: gas $5.00 a gallon. Another housing debacle or worsening of the present mess. A big company like GM declares bankruptcy and pensions are gone. All the debates go their way in an outlandish fashion. Real gaffes by McCain and Palin. McCain becomes ill.
As always, happy to eat crow publicly when the facts prove me wrong.
Hap
PS I don't buy the "experience argument" in its usual form as we have seen it over the past few elections. If Palin comes out big time as no no nonsense Mom who is capable of getting folks to follow her lead were she President, Repubs win. Especially if during the next two months she blows some Dems out of the water in a aggressive and charming manner.
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"Separation of Church & State" it's not just a catchy phrase it's part of our constitution.
Do you even know where that phrase comes from?
Again, tell me why the first act of the first US Senate was to appoint a chaplain. Then tell me how that shows "separation of Church & State" in our constitution.
BTW, that phrase is not in our Constitution.
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Considering it was Thomas Jefferson who wrote the letter in question about the intent of the 1st Amendment, well I'll take his word on it. I'll also take James Madison's word on it because he wrote much of the 1st amendment and is considered the father of our constitution. He had pretty much the same view as TJ..
“The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries.” James Maddision 1803
That's two.. how many more you need?
The total separation of church and state as you interpret it was never intended by the founders. If it was, why did the first Congress appoint a chaplain as one of their first actions? That certainly isn't consistent with a total separation of church and state as you see it.
In many cases countries in Europe had official churches whether it was the Catholic Church or the Church of England, those churches interfered with the secular government in undesireable ways. That is what the founders wanted to prevent here. They never intended that children couldn't pray in school, or use school facilities for after school Bible studies with like minded students.
We can find dozens of private and public documents to support an individual right for the 2nd Amendment, 2 sources is still a pretty weak argument in comparison.
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oops
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I fail to see ...
That's not surprising.
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Considering it was Thomas Jefferson who wrote the letter in question about the intent of the 1st Amendment, well I'll take his word on it. I'll also take James Madison's word on it because he wrote much of the 1st amendment and is considered the father of our constitution. He had pretty much the same view as TJ..
“The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries.” James Maddision 1803
That's two.. how many more you need?
Again, the Constitution forbids the establishment of a state religion, it does not forbid the government from doing anything else. As an example, how many times is GOD referred to in the founding documents? We know that they were referring to GOD in the Judeao/Christian meaning because throughout the history of the founding of this nation, the Judeao/Christian religion was very obviously practiced by the vast majority of those responsible for the founding documents. No doubt that some of the founding members were for even more separation of religion from government than others were. And Jefferson as well as Madison may have been among them. That does NOT mean that the Constitution agrees with their level of separation. Further, the continued and constant references to GOD, as well as the use of Judeao/Christian values in the founding documents, leaves little doubt that there was no intent to remove GOD or religion from government completely.
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umm ok it's in the 1st amendment, if you want to be that picky.
The phrase is from Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists.
Google it up, it's not that long.
Cliff's Notes version is that Jefferson thought that religious rights are inalienable and that the federal government had no right to legislate on religious matters in any way.
It in no way offers a view from Jefferson that the Constitution would prevent the Senate from hiring a chaplain to (gasp!) offer a prayer at the opening of a Senate session. (/gasp!)
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Do you even know where that phrase comes from?
Again, tell me why the first act of the first US Senate was to appoint a chaplain. Then tell me how that shows "separation of Church & State" in our constitution.
BTW, that phrase is not in our Constitution.
But he and others DESPERATELY WANT it to be. And since they believe the Constitution to be a "living document", :rolleyes: their desires actually make it so. The fact that you can show him it is not in the Constitution does not matter.
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Crockett, the Founding Fathers were all well schooled in the state-sponsored religious atrocities of the Middle Ages and the Protestant Reformation: the Inquisition; the Hussite Wars; the persecution of Scottish Lutherans; the massacres of French Huguenots; the imprisonment of English Separatists and Puritans; and the Thirty Years War in Germany.
The concept of "separation of Church and State", while not stated directly in the First Amendment, was implicit in its intent. However, it is a modern day fallacy that the Founding Fathers intended for the electorate to leave their religious convictions at home on election day. Modern opponents of religious activism have tried to paint these men as being some type of new age "deists" who were somehow outside the mainstream religious beliefs of the rest of the nation. Those opponents are mistaken....the Founding Fathers were solidly in the contemporary Christian camp, and their writings and letters leave no doubt about that.
They realised that religious tenets provide a moral compass for the citizen. Without that compass, the ship-of-state would be adrift, and at the mercy of every ideological fad and dangerous political tide that the world can produce.
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But he and others DESPERATELY WANT it to be. And since they believe the Constitution to be a "living document", :rolleyes: their desires actually make it so. The fact that you can show him it is not in the Constitution does not matter.
Well, there's that old line that applies: To a conservative, seeing is believing. To a liberal, believing is seeing.
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The letter to the Danbury Baptists from Jefferson. Notice the last sentence, Jefferson himself was not without religious beliefs as he indicates he himself will pray for the protection and blessing of the common father and creator of man.
Gentlemen
The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.
Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.
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The closing statements from TJ's 1st and 2nd inaugural addresses:
1st: "And may that Infinite Power which rules the destinies of the universe lead our councils to what is best, and give them a favorable issue for your peace and prosperity."
2nd: "I shall need, too, the favor of that Being in whose hands we are, who led our fathers, as Israel of old, from their native land and planted them in a country flowing with all the necessaries and comforts of life; who has covered our infancy with His providence and our riper years with His wisdom and power, and to whose goodness I ask you to join in supplications with me that He will so enlighten the minds of your servants, guide their councils, and prosper their measures that whatsoever they do shall result in your good, and shall secure to you the peace, friendship, and approbation of all nations."
(GASP!) He invoked a Higher Being in his inaugural addresses! Didn't TJ realize that there has to be separation between Church and State? You can't mention a Higher Being when you discuss leadership of the nation! Holy CHIT! He asked a Higher Being to guide their councils! That's... that's... that's like a prayer! Quick, call the ACLU!!! We have to sue Jefferson!(/GASP!)
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it is a modern day fallacy that the Founding Fathers intended for the electorate to leave their religious convictions at home on election day.
Another modern day fallacy is that the founders intended for there to be no interaction between the church and state at all. I used the examples of children praying in school and school facilities being used for Bible studies with like minded individuals earlier in the thread.
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lol what is it with McCain and his little beauty queens, anyway?
snip
Good taste in trim! :)
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You're spot on Elfie. They realized that it would be impossible to separate voters from their religious convictions in any case.
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Something for the pilots to note She's also very pro GA.
The Aero publications have been very quick to pick up on it.
McCain has made a smart move there.
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You're spot on Elfie. They realized that it would be impossible to separate voters from their religious convictions in any case.
I would expand upon that Shuckins and say that it is impossible to separate voters from their convictions regardless of religious beliefs or not.
The most ridiculous argument made in these political threads is when people think that I (or any other person with religious beliefs) should leave those convictions outside the voting booth while those same people making that argument insist on voting according to their own convictions.
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As an outsider I think its a clever choice.
It shows McCain a far more "modern" leader than Obama, because despite all his chanting about change - Obama went safe and choose a 60+ white democratic stalwart. McCain has also moved away from the traditional white men only republican ticket which also further defuses Obama's change message, has given the real anger felt by Hillary hardliners an alternative (its still a big leap), from early reports here she's a traditional conservative, a fast and proven administrator, and with 5 kids (with one in the Army etc etc) only helps McCain in the traditional conservative electorates. Her "inexperience" is a slight problem because McCain really can't capitalise further on Obama's - but I would see it as bonus because being younger than Obama she can counter anything Obama/Biden can throw at McCains age, and the lines about being out of touch.
Obama did make a mistake not taking Hillary onboard, and I personally thought a McCain/Powell ticket would've been a slamdunk - but I do think it was a very good move by McCain, and maybe will make him president?
Tronsky
What the Vice President choices REALLY show us, is how far whacked the democratic party is. As crazy and as power hungry as Hillary Clinton is, she would have known at least to pick a more moderate democrat. Specifically someone who got a decent NRA rating. It never occurred to Obama and those left wing whackjobs that the only chance they had of winning, especially with Obama having one of the worst NRA ratings, was to pick someone who didn't.
McCain doesn't have a perfect NRA rating, but still good. With Palin under his belt (bad metaphor?), all he has to do now is even remotely lean on the NRA.
McCain will crush obama. It will be hilarious.
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She's also very pro GA.
Forgive my ignorance on this, but what is *GA*? :D
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Forgive my ignorance on this, but what is *GA*? :D
General Aviation - private planes and pilots.
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General Aviation. You know those pesky little planes that every other politician seems convinced will rain a hail of death down on our heads yet provide the building blocks for every aviator that lives and breathes?
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General Aviation - private planes and pilots.
Well that doesn't surprise me at all then considering the State of Alaska has the highest number of private pilots per capita and also boasts the worlds largest float plane airport at Lake Hood (?) in Anchorage.
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McCain will crush obama.
I tend to agree and I think it was each candidates choice of running mates that has determined this.
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http://www.gopconvention2008.com/default.aspx
That's the link for the Repub Nat'l Convention. After work, I watched the Dems. Will do the same with Repubs.
Nothing on the site about Palin. That's a mistake. I bet they fix it before the day is out.
Service, Reform, Prosperity, and Peace are the topics for the four nights.
They've got Cheney and Bush scheduled to speak and Laura Bush along with others on the 1st night.
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What's VPLIF mean?
heh.....check your pm's.
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To get back on topic, sort of, is anyone else, besides myself, getting the impression that Obama's campaign staff of groupies has seriously underestimated the old white-maned lion that is opposing him?
I mean, they've been pretty smug about the election outcome, believing they've got it sewed up because of the "economy" and "the war" and "Bush hatred" and what-not.
And YET...McCain just sits there with that cheesy smirk on his face, and butt-effs them with moves like this. And these moves are so well oiled that they don't seem to realize that it's happening.
When this is all over with in November, I think they're going to be surprised how many throats he's cut.
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To get back on topic, sort of, is anyone else, besides myself, getting the impression that Obama's campaign staff of groupies has seriously underestimated the old white-maned lion that is opposing him?
I mean, they've been pretty smug about the election outcome, believing they've got it sewed up because of the "economy" and "the war" and "Bush hatred" and what-not.
And YET...McCain just sits there with that cheesy smirk on his face, and butt-effs them with moves like this. And these moves are so well oiled that they don't seem to realize that it's happening.
When this is all over with in November, I think they're going to be surprised how many throats he's cut.
I can't say that I disagree with any of that.....especially the part about the dems being surprised..... :lol
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To get back on topic, sort of, is anyone else, besides myself, getting the impression that Obama's campaign staff of groupies has seriously underestimated the old white-maned lion that is opposing him?
I mean, they've been pretty smug about the election outcome, believing they've got it sewed up because of the "economy" and "the war" and "Bush hatred" and what-not.
And YET...McCain just sits there with that cheesy smirk on his face, and butt-effs them with moves like this. And these moves are so well oiled that they don't seem to realize that it's happening.
When this is all over with in November, I think they're going to be surprised how many throats he's cut.
I totally agree with what you've said.
I thought McCain's commercial that came out the day of Obama's speech was classy (the one where he congratulated Obama). Looking back I like it even more because you gotta think that McCain knew what he was about to do the next day and what impact it would have.
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Democrates are a bunch of blow hards. They say change change change but yet they keep talking
about the same ol same ol.
The Republicans, with their VP choice have shown change already.
Palin has an 80% approval rate in Alaska.Unheard of in any state.
This women will bring change. I love her stance on corruption, something that is ramp id
in our government. I just hope she doesn't change once she gets in.
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Palin has an 80% approval rate in Alaska.Unheard of in any state.
I've seen 85% online and claims of up to 90% on this bbs.
This women will bring change. I love her stance on corruption, something that is ramp id
in our government. I just hope she doesn't change once she gets in.
She hasn't changed yet, let's just hope that Washington politics don't change her. I suspect they wont, but you never know.
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It is not that McCain, or his campaign, are doing such a great job, they aren't, they're just sort of being low key. It's that the Democrats are doing such a poor job. They are convinced that the same approach that lost the last election will win this one.
Honestly, given that we were supposedly at peace, and enjoying economic prosperity, and given that Gore was the VP of a supposedly popular administration under those circumstances, he should have CRUSHED Bush, it should never have been close enough for Florida to have been an issue. That it WAS that close means they lost. And it means they did a terrible job. Their loss in 2000 was even bigger than Bush's loss to Clinton, they did a worse job than Bush did, and I thought that would have been near impossible. And they have not done much, if any, better since. The key to that is their assumption that EVERYONE truly HATES Bush AND the Republican party, and it doesn't matter how bad a candidate the Democrats put up, or how bad a campaign they run, they are preordained to win. That is why they are so surprised and angry when they lose, and so consumed by the false belief that they were robbed. Their continuing shift to the left will likely leave them further and further away.
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Democrates are a bunch of blow hards. They say change change change but yet they keep talking
about the same ol same ol.
Kaw, from where you sit, what beefs do Democrats have with the way things are? What do you see them to be?
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Virgil, I agree with a lot of what you say...except for the part about McCain not running a very strong campaign. I think keeping his campaign low-key is actually a very savvy thing to do. He realizes that if he gives the liberal dems calling the shots for Obama enough rope, they'll hang themselves.
McCain also realizes that not ALL Americans hate Bush and the Republican Party. I think he also realizes that the voters will catch on to the fact that the fourth branch of the government, the press, is doing everything within its power to promote Obama....and that the people will see through that in the end.
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I think he also realizes that the voters will catch on to the fact that the fourth branch of the government, the press, is doing everything within its power to promote Obama....and that the people will see through that in the end.
I would guess that most reasonable people do already. It's pretty ridiculous how the press has tried to promote one candidate over the other during the last few campaigns. The press should be helping us by showing each candidate in as impartial a way as possible.
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The problem is...the Dems cry and complain about the way things are..yet they have the
majority in the Senate...They have a chance to "Change" things right now...but yet they Don't.
I heard, and I don't know how true it is, the Obama pretty much voted ,on issues,
close to the same way McCain did.
And you have one of the leaders of the Democratic party, Nancy Pelosi
who Brags shes Catholic...then says she does'nt know when life begins,
When the Catholic church teaches Life begins at conception.
We are in a real energy crunch...Pelosi's stance....No drilling in America
this is one of the Democratic leaders,,,and real two face lieing witch.
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FYI, j
Just a bit of trivia, my brush with fame:
I used to call Wasilla, Alaska home (where Palin was mayor). She was just on city council when I left the state, and I didn't know of her. When we go home to visit my parents in Alaska, we stay at their home in Wasilla. I have a brother whose married with children who also lives there.
While visiting my parents in 2006 I saw Palin at the Wasilla 4th of July parade. I remember seeing her and thinking to myself, "The young mayor of little po-dunk Wasilla is going up against former US Senator and current governor Frank Murkowski, yea right. Good luck... and gee, she's pretty." My father and brother are pretty involved in the Republican Party. My dad knows Murkowski well and my brother was fervently opposed to Murkowski and very much wanted him out. I didn't realize that my brother's opinion was shared by the majority of Alaskans.
Now she's on the big ticket; amazing. Even if the Republicans don't win, she could stand a chance to be the Republican presidential nominee in 2012; as long as she keeps up her record and stays out of scandals.
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Don't know if it's because I changed jobs at the start of July and I've been really busy with that work or because I haven't had time as a result of that to partake of the wordy discourse here of late and therefore I'm going through AH Bulletin Board withdrawl or what but DAY-UM I am ENJOYING this thread!
Sho-nuff! :D
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http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=94113125#94100439
Links to NPR about Palin. Worth a listen. I like what I hear. Especially the part about putting the governor's private jet up for sale on Ebay.
Kaw, you told me about "the problem" as you see it. I asked you what you thought the beef the democrats have as you see it. If you don't want to answer, cool. No problem.
I agree with what you say about Pelosi. I didn't know they have a majority in the senate. Thought they had a majority in the house. Thanks for letting me know about the senate.
As to "no drilling in America," folks drilling all over the place where I live. Lots of oil, gas, and coal stuff going on. Tons.
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I've been to Wasilla a few times while I was stationed at Elemendorf in the mid 80's eskimo. That's not the same as living there though. ;)
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I see what your saying...I don't know the answer to your question. All I know
is their key Word is "Change". What are they going to change? How are they going to do it? They along with
Republicians have changed the country for the worse.
Two things I think should be on the top on the list is getting our jobs back and energy.
Solve those two problems and the country will be in better place.
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Two things I think should be on the top on the list is getting our jobs back and energy.
Solve those two problems and the country will be in better place.
I would have to agree that those are two major issues facing this country.
As to "no drilling in America,"
I think that was a reference to the no offshore drilling and keeping ANWR closed to drilling. I am in favor of both btw, lets get that oil to market asap and also the oil in the Dakotas as well. Also step up oil exploration and step up alternative renewable energy research and development. The sooner we can eliminate our dependence on foreign oil the better off we will be.
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Agreed...They talk about the transfer of weath with respect to oil.
Billions and billions of our dollars are going overseas..we need to
keep it here!!
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Those that say there is no difference between a part time political hack.. a senator.. who spends his entire time running for next times election and gathering a war chest and trying to ignore the 20% approval rating of his ilk and it's part time job making useless laws and...
A full time governor.. I think you are not thinking it through. If I were to look at a resume for pres.. If I were to write the job description... it would look like the job description for governor.. It would seem to me that the logical step from governor would be.. POTUS.
I am heartened.. In this throwaway state... I see a lot of enraptured osamabinbiden voters.. my last ex and her almost a man husband for instance... they wept at the osama speech.. the next day it was like shooting guns in the room while they nursed a hangover when I asked em about Palin.
They were livid. They HATE this woman. they hate her for all the reasons that they love osambinbiden...
Because they are mush heads who are told what to like and what to hate.
I asked them to name one thing about the messiah that they liked.. they said he would bring us all together.. I asked em if they thought I (and my ilk) would be at the campfire singing kooom byeee ahh with em... they looked confused.
I said try again.. they said.. well.. he will make it so that the rich pay all the taxes and there will be no taxes on anyone who makes less than 180k (the exact figure that they make).
At this point I gave up.
lazs
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lol Laz....I beleve it ...I don't know where the democratic mindset comes from.
I think on of the problems is "here say" its hard to get the real facts.
I think we all fall in this catagory sometimes. I just want to know the facts.
But yet when you ask a politicain a yes or no question..you never here just a yes or no.
They have a way of skirting aroung the issue, and then we never really know what the
answer is.
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Those that say there is no difference between a part time political hack, a senator, who spends time running for the next election, gathering a war chest, and ignoring his ilk's 20% job approval versus a full time governor, you are not thinking it through.
If I were to look at a resume for pres, to write the job description, it would look like the job description for governor. It would seem to me that the logical step from governor would be POTUS.
I am heartened. In this throwaway state, I see a lot of enraptured osamabinbiden voters. My last ex and her almost a man husband for instance. They wept at the osama speech. The next day it was like shooting guns in the room while they nursed a hangover when I asked em about Palin.
They were livid. They HATE this woman. They hate her for all the reasons that they love osambinbiden because they are mush heads who are told what to like and what to hate.
I asked them to name one thing about the messiah that they liked. They said he would bring us all together. I asked em if they thought I (and my ilk) would be at the campfire singing kooom byeee ahh with em. They looked confused.
I said try again. They said, "well, he will make it so that the rich pay all the taxes and there will be no taxes on anyone who makes less than 180k (the exact figure that they make).
At this point I gave up.
lazs
There. Now I can read it. :)
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Billions and billions of our dollars go overseas. We need to keep it here!!
I agree. And I have some qualifications though. If the gazillion gets divvied up at the top, so all of you get an extra 15K boost per year, I say "no."
In 2007, the top 50 hedge-fund managers were paid 50 billon dollars. That's 1 billion each. That's 20 million a week. Did I get the decimal point right? Too many zeroes for me to calculate accurately. I run out of fingers and toes.
I say "no" to Joe Schmoe's 20 million a week even if he lets dribble my way and yours 15K to 50K a year.
That's insane. And to anyone who says, "it's not the money, it's the principle," I say, "you're fibbing."
There needs to be profit for continued investment to ensure a company's profitability. Not for paying out bazillions in gross pay.
Just think what gas and paper towels would cost if things were not insane.
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anyone not thinking this was a brilliant (and rare) strategy by the republicans and Mccain is simply living in a daze.
The speed and intensity of this thread... proves it.. every liberal socialist on this board is fuming.
This board has no "middle of the road" voters.. it has conservatives... individualists (and libertarians) and total weenie liberal socialists.
the first couple are pretty up front and honest and.. a few of the liberal weenies are upfront and honest but.. by far the most dishonest are the total liberal weenies on this board who pretend to not be.. the dreds and the morays the ones who claim to be middle of the road but would fit in fine in a san francisco save the illegal aliens parade.
They try to sound like the voice of moderation and reason but.. only if you agree with them.
Others.. say that the fighting upsets their stomach.. tough.. I want my guy to fight and dig up the dirt.. I want him to drag the liberals kicking and screaming into the light.
Why would I vote for one over the other if there were no issues that they felt the other guy was wrong on.
That does not mean I want to hear about this or that guys taking copier paper home or firing someone out of spite or not getting along..
Nope... I want em to fight tooth and nail on the important stuff. If everyone one candidate knows and loves is a commie.. I want that out in the open. If the guy says he believes in the second amendment but votes to make all types of concealed carry and semi auto firearms illegal.. I want him drug out kicking and screaming into the light. I want to know what the difference is between someone hunting all her life and someone taking a picture holding the wrong end of a shotgun in october.
I think it is really telling how much this VP choice is being slammed.. overtly or covertly by the liberals here and how it won't let this record breaking thread die.
They are scared witless... er... more witless.
lazs
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hap.. you couldn't read it till you quoted it?
Hell.. far as I am concerned.. you can go and tell everyone you said it.
lazs
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hap.. you couldn't read it till you quoted it?
Hell.. far as I am concerned.. you can go and tell everyone you said it.
lazs
I had trouble making sense of it Lazs. I wasn't intending to anger you or bother you in any way.
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anyone not thinking this was a brilliant (and rare) strategy by the republicans and Mccain is simply living in a daze.
The speed and intensity of this thread... proves it.. every liberal socialist on this board is fuming.
This board has no "middle of the road" voters.. it has conservatives... individualists (and libertarians) and total weenie liberal socialists.
the first couple are pretty up front and honest and.. a few of the liberal weenies are upfront and honest but.. by far the most dishonest are the total liberal weenies on this board who pretend to not be.. the dreds and the morays the ones who claim to be middle of the road but would fit in fine in a san francisco save the illegal aliens parade.
They try to sound like the voice of moderation and reason but.. only if you agree with them.
Others.. say that the fighting upsets their stomach.. tough.. I want my guy to fight and dig up the dirt.. I want him to drag the liberals kicking and screaming into the light.
Why would I vote for one over the other if there were no issues that they felt the other guy was wrong on.
That does not mean I want to hear about this or that guys taking copier paper home or firing someone out of spite or not getting along..
Nope... I want em to fight tooth and nail on the important stuff. If everyone one candidate knows and loves is a commie.. I want that out in the open. If the guy says he believes in the second amendment but votes to make all types of concealed carry and semi auto firearms illegal.. I want him drug out kicking and screaming into the light. I want to know what the difference is between someone hunting all her life and someone taking a picture holding the wrong end of a shotgun in october.
I think it is really telling how much this VP choice is being slammed.. overtly or covertly by the liberals here and how it won't let this record breaking thread die.
They are scared witless... er... more witless.
lazs
Sometimes it scares me how much I agree with you, you have said pretty much exactly what I have been thinking. The libbies are scared chitless. They are now trying to make out that Palin was a bad choice, when in reality she was a great choice, a fresh voice who has climbed the ladder while strongly opposing corruption in both camps. She isn't afraid of confrontation, or guns like the girlymen of the democratic party.
I was pretty confident McCain would win the election, I am even more so now.
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There really is no job that prepares one best for being president. If you look at the presidents since Roosevelt, you'll find...
1) Franklin Roosevelt: State Senator, Governor of New York
2) Harry Truman: U.S. Senator, VP
3) Dwight Eisenhower: No political experience
4) John Kennedy: U.S. Representative, U.S. Senator
5) Lyndon Johnson: U.S. Representative, U.S. Senator, VP
6) Richard Nixon: U.S. Representative, U.S. Senator, VP
7) Gerald Ford: U.S. Representative, VP
8 ) Jimmy Carter: State Senator, Governor of Georgia
9) Ronald Reagan: Governor of California
10) George H.W. Bush: U.S. Representative, VP
11) Bill Clinton: Governor of Arkansas
12) George W. Bush: Governor of Texas
So does being Governor "best qualify" one for being president? I see a real mixed bag in there in terms of successful and unsuccessful presidents, and their prior political experience is all over the place.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I just talked to dad about her; he knows her very well. Look at this picture and note the white bar pin that she's wearing with the star on it:
(http://media.adn.com/smedia/2008/08/29/13/764MCCain_Veepstakes_Palin.sff.standalone.prod_affiliate.7.jpg)
It represents having a child in the service during a war; a throw back to WWII. My dad is involved with the VA, has been promoting these and gave her the pin she regularly wears (and a few spares).
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Wonder what Palin will do for the talent portion of the contest. She'll obviously win the swimsuit; I bet Biden goes with a one-piece.
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Wow, it's gonna be hard to stay up to speed in this thread-everybody on Eastern and Central time has a 2-3 hour head start on me!
Anyway, reading the news this morning, this was one of the top stories on Yahoo:
Heidi Przybyla
Sat Aug 30, 12:01 AM ET
Aug. 30 (Bloomberg) -- John McCain's decision to pass up conventional candidates and pick little-known, first-term Alaska Governor Sarah Palin for the Republican ticket may appeal to undecided voters McCain needs to win. It also may blunt McCain's charges that Democrat Barack Obama isn't experienced enough for the White House.
ADVERTISEMENT
Palin, 44, who wasn't high on conventional-wisdom rankings of potential vice presidential candidates, may soothe social conservatives in her own party and may appeal to some disappointed Hillary Clinton backers. She's younger than Obama, who is 47, and has served less than half of her first term as governor.
``It's either a grand-slam home run or it'll turn out to be a bust,'' said Stu Rothenberg, editor of the Rothenberg Political Report in Washington. The answer will be clear over the next few days, he said.
Palin opposes abortion rights and supports gun ownership, two core Republican issues. She also has no ties to George W. Bush, an advantage as McCain seeks to distance himself from the unpopular president.
Palin, who has a background in energy policy, was elected governor in 2006 by challenging Alaska's Republican leadership and vowing to clean up a government corruption scandal.
``As governor, I've stood up to the old politics as usual, to the special interests, to the lobbyists, the big oil companies, and the good-old-boy network,'' she said at a rally yesterday in Dayton, Ohio, where she was introduced by McCain.
``She's exactly who this country needs to help me fight the same old Washington politics,'' McCain said.
`Off the Table'
Former Senator Tom Daschle, a South Dakota Democrat and leading Obama advocate, said McCain's selection will make it more difficult for the Arizona senator to fault Obama for a lack of experience.
``It takes the whole experience issue off the table,'' Daschle said.
The next few days will be a critical test for Palin as the media and critics dig through her record, said Fordham University political scientist Costas Panagopoulos.
``Palin will face intense scrutiny by the media and by voters who need assurance that she is ready to assume the presidency at a moment's notice, if necessary,'' Panagopoulos said.
McCain's choice was applauded by social conservatives.
``We have a pro-life, pro-family ticket,'' said Roberta Combs, president of the Christian Coalition of America. ``It's going to galvanize conservative evangelicals across the country.''
Skittish About McCain
Abortion foes have been skittish about McCain, who supports stem-cell research and has said he wants to broaden the party's plank on abortion to include exceptions in cases of rape and when the life of the mother is at risk.
Palin is a member of Feminists for Life, a group that works to make health-care and child-care resources available to ``pregnant or parenting students,'' according to the group's Web site.
``All the conservatives are happy, yet she kind of offers a working-class Republican ethos, which we wouldn't have gotten with Mitt Romney,'' said Douglas Brinkley, a presidential historian at Rice University in Houston.
McCain's selection of Palin is also aimed at wooing female supporters of Clinton, some of whom have been reluctant to line up behind Obama after a protracted primary battle.
Palin is the second woman to be chosen as a major-party nominee for vice president. The first, then-Representative Geraldine Ferraro of New York, was nominated by the Democrats in 1984.
`Glass Ceiling'
``Many Hillary Clinton supporters are desperate to break the glass ceiling for women,'' said Brinkley.
Arizona Governor Janet Napolitano, a Democrat, said McCain shouldn't assume women will vote Republican just because a female is on the ticket.
``The burden of proof, if anything, is a little bit higher, so I think there is a little miscalculation on that assumption,'' Napolitano said in an interview on Bloomberg Television's ``Conversations with Judy Woodruff.''
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi highlighted Palin's anti-abortion stance.
``She shares John McCain's commitment to overturning Roe v. Wade and continuing George Bush's failed economic policies,'' Pelosi said in a statement.
Energy industry groups lauded Palin's selection, saying it reopened the possibility the U.S. could begin allowing drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.
Record Prices
McCain has said he opposes opening the refuge to drilling, although new emphasis has been placed on domestic oil production as prices reached records this summer. Oil hit a record $147.27 on July 11.
Palin, a former beauty queen, high school basketball star and television sportscaster, began her political career in the 1990s as a city councilwoman and then mayor in her home town of Wasilla. The town's estimated population in 2007 was 9,780, according to the U.S. Census Bureau.
Considered a rising political star by state Republican leaders, she was appointed in 2003 to the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission, a significant body in the energy-rich state.
Her biggest test may be proving her intellect, said Michael O'Hanlon, a foreign policy expert at Washington's Brookings Institution.
``Since we all know there's nothing there in terms of national security, does she have the intellectual ability to get up to speed quickly?'' he said. ``We're going to have to get a feel for how smart she is.''
To contact the reporters this story: Heidi Przybyla in Denver at hprzybyla@bloomberg.net .
http://news.yahoo.com/s/bloomberg/20080830/pl_bloomberg/aulhaumcz6l0 (http://news.yahoo.com/s/bloomberg/20080830/pl_bloomberg/aulhaumcz6l0)
There's plusses, and minuses, to McCains' choice as a running mate. As Daschle pointed out, McCain may have just blotted out his experience advantage-Palin's got even less than Obama. However, She may win over Clinton supporters, who will vote a woman into office, simply to break that "glass ceiling" that was mentioned in the article...Although, Clinton was running for the presidency itself; Vice-presidency doesn't have quite the same impact. Hard to call that one. Also, She might shut down drilling for oil in places' like the arctic National wildlife refuge, as she has had a conservationist stance. This could also stretch to offshore drilling in other places, although that hasn't been proven.
I'm thinking one thing that I really don't like about this selection. It was so completely out of left field, in terms of who she is, and what her background is, that if she goes to D.C. she will be encountering all kinds' of lobying hell that she never saw in Alaska; Only having to deal with the Oil companies' is one thing. Facing the full brunt of everything there will be in Washington, All the Major corporations, All of the special interest groups, all the religions, etc. etc., might be pretty tough if she has to assume the Presidency (McCain doesn't have to die to relinquish office, remember. If he falls' ill, becomes' debilitated, or succumbs' to old age, She will suddenly have to jump in Mid-term.)
Anyway, read the article, and check the rest of the news to see what pops up.
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Well, well, well.
Talk about your rabbit out of the hat moment.
Get Some!
Moose. It`s not just for breakfast anymore. :aok
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if she goes to D.C. she will be encountering all kinds' of lobying hell that she never saw in Alaska; Only having to deal with the Oil companies' is one thing. Facing the full brunt of everything there will be in Washington, All the Major corporations, All of the special interest groups, all the religions, etc. etc., might be pretty tough if she has to assume the Presidency (McCain doesn't have to die to relinquish office, remember. If he falls' ill, becomes' debilitated, or succumbs' to old age, She will suddenly have to jump in Mid-term.)
Frode, I'm of a mind now that we could stick an O'Clubber as President and not be too worse off. I know I sound ludicrous.
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You are nowhere near the middle of the road I travel down in life. Most of the people I come across in life can best be described as fiscal conservatives and social moderates.
From what I gather you are neither. I may be wrong...this bbs is a terrible place to truly measure folks, however, here I gather your a good person.
Yeager, you gather wrong. Fiscal conservative, social moderate pretty much sums up my POV.
The only tree I ever hugged was pieces of one I was loading into the back of my truck to bring home and burn.
My only concern about Palin is her serious lack of foreign affairs experience.
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Here's a Palin problem: But what does she know about Iranian nukes, health care or the future of entitlement programs? And that's just a few of the 20 or so national issues on which she will be expected to show basic competence. The McCain camp will have to either let her wing it based on a few briefing memos (highly risky) or prevent her from taking questions from reporters (a confession that she's unprepared). Either way, she's going to belly-flop at a time when McCain can least afford it.
And one more: She is a far-right conservative who supported Pat Buchanan over George W. Bush in 2000. She thinks global warming is a hoax and backs the teaching of creationism in public schools. Women are not likely to be impressed by her opposition to abortion even in the case of rape and incest.
I don't care if she looks stupid. One can learn to look smart. Quickly too. What I care is what she does.
I expect McCain to finish his term if America elects him. But I'm viewing Palin as a possible President. 2 months to access the scene.
I like Buchanan over Bush big time.
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Yea that's the same way I'm looking at it, right now it's just all blogosphere rumor mill stuff, which is why I wasn't gonna post about it. I figured the rumor mill was starting and it would be very hard for anyone to find the info of they were interested.
As a side note, this is a video about the Trooper Firing issue..Seems like she has contradicted her self even on video with this deal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UojMnCgqVA
Who. gives. a. mask. ??
blogosphere rumor mill stuff
You said it.
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My only concern about Palin is her serious lack of foreign affairs experience.
Her's is just as good as Obama's is.
So, Obama has Biden to back him up....what if Biden kicks the bucket?
Obama would be in the same position Palin would be should McCain kick the bucket.
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I don't care if it's a news source that caters to the Right or the Left.. it's when they are working behind the scenes to make the news how they want to promote it.. Well that's when they become nothing more than propaganda. No other news station do you see all the ancors and various talk show hosts all useing the same planted "catch phrases" like you see on Fox News.
Yes, but when this was announced, NBC didn't even run it for over an hour. And for the past 5 days, they had been running over the Convention and Obamas' pick...
American media is awful, all of it. But Fox News is the best out of em all.
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My wife, a rabid Hillaryite, was more pissed off than happy about McCain's pick. She felt is was an obvious pander to her constituency, as if they will vote for ANY woman. I think McCain will get little or nothing from the Hillary voters.
Some people WILL vote for any woman. Just as some people will vote for any black. Or some people will vote for anybody who is anti-conservative.
:D
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Yeager, you gather wrong. Fiscal conservative, social moderate pretty much sums up my POV.
The only tree I ever hugged was pieces of one I was loading into the back of my truck to bring home and burn.
My only concern about Palin is her serious lack of foreign affairs experience.
Ok then, your a fiscal conservative, social moderate type kinda guy. I'll remember that :)
Yeah its a concern of mine as well, but when your kid is up at bat you root for em and have faith in em. I would prefer to give this youngster a chance. Kid obama
is on the other team. Besides, she seems bright enough, and stern enough to become a powerful force if the need arises. Getting elected to governor takes some
work. She can do it. hey bata bata bata
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We still have plenty to learn about all of the candidates. The choices have been narrowed down(GOP Convention pending), now time to start examining them. Bring on the debates. That's where the cream rises.
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No matter how you slice it or parse it, this is beginning to shape up into an interesting race.
It isn't going to be the walkover that Obama's supporters expected. That is good...it will keep them humble.
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We still have plenty to learn about all of the candidates. The choices have been narrowed down(GOP Convention pending), now time to start examining them. Bring on the debates. That's where the cream rises.
What cream? The closest thing we MAY have to cream is going to be Palin, depending on how she pans out. The rest we already know are politics as usual.
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Unca Joe Biden is a character.. he has a sharp, predatory rostrum style, has made plenty of hay over the years by 'shooting from the lip'. From what little I've seen of Palin in the 'talking head' shows she's no vacant headed twit when it comes engaging an adversary in that venue. 'Unca Joe's' old school condescending attitude and over confidence vs the 'Barracuda'... oh, my.
I predict the VP debate(s) will be very, very entertaining.
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hmmm todd.. seems that by your own list.. some executive experience is involved.. a lot of your senators ended up as VP (sorta assistant POTUS) before they got a shot at POTUS.
Ike was running a whole war. He was an executive not a part time politician. I imagine that in lincolns day the senators worked a little harder and were held in higher regard than the dismal showing they have today.
I am never thrilled to see someone who went from school to school to lawyer to senator to pres.
lazs
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What cream? The closest thing we MAY have to cream is going to be Palin, depending on how she pans out. The rest we already know are politics as usual.
true dat... :mad:
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Unca Joe Biden is a character.. he has a sharp, predatory rostrum style, has made plenty of hay over the years by 'shooting from the lip'. From what little I've seen of Palin in the 'talking head' shows she's no vacant headed twit when it comes engaging an adversary in that venue. 'Unca Joe's' old school condescending attitude and over confidence vs the 'Barracuda'... oh, my.
I predict the VP debate(s) will be very, very entertaining.
Unca Joe will also in a bit of a trick box --- he has to be careful how he goes about trashing Palin so as not to make women angry. He has to be careful about seeming to be "talking down" or being the chauvinistic pig. He may not have the discipline to pass up the obvious female jokes :D
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Well, my point with that list is that a lot of the presidents there have similar experience. However, not all of those presidents were what I would call successful, and some of them were downright pathetic. Others were very successful. Those with executive experience fall along the entire range from unsuccessful to successful, just as those who do not. So if executive experience is any indicator of success, I don't really see it.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t81j_Aup4fo
Her acceptance speech on youtube.
What is not to like about this woman? She is for cutting wasteful spending, cutting property taxes, fights corruption and holds the corrupt accountable, stopped the bridge to nowhere, life member of the NRA.
Pretty funny. She was for the so called "bridge to nowhere" before she was against it.
McCain luvs his flip floppers.
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What cream? The closest thing we MAY have to cream is going to be Palin, depending on how she pans out. The rest we already know are politics as usual.
I agree, but dont you think Biden is a decent fella? Obama and McCain I believe are both decent people, I just dont trust either party to have my concerns anywhere near what they intend to do once elected.
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Pretty funny. She was for the so called "bridge to nowhere" before she was against it.
McCain luvs his flip floppers.
Hmmm... rather than digging thru the hyper left screaming in the blogs that's popped in the last two days I managed to find a 1 year old story on CNN.
A lot less hysteria and a pragmatic attitude is apparent:
Just last month, presidential candidate Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona, said pet projects could have played a role in a Minnesota bridge collapse that killed 13 people earlier this year.
"Maybe if we had done it right, maybe some of that money would have gone to inspect those bridges and other bridges around the country," McCain told a group of people in a town-hall style meeting in Ankeny, Iowa.
"Maybe the 200,000 people who cross that bridge every day would have been safer than spending $233 million of your tax dollars on a bridge in Alaska to an island with 50 people on it."
On Friday, Leo von Scheben, commissioner of the state Department of Transportation, said the bridge money could be used to build roads in Alaska.
"There is no question we desperately need to construct new roads in this state, including in southeast Alaska, where skyrocketing costs for the Alaska Marine Highway System present an impediment to the state's budget and the region's economy," von Scheben said in a statement.
The governor urged Alaskans not to dwell on the bridge.
"Much of the public's attitude toward Alaska bridges is based on inaccurate portrayals of the projects here," Palin said. "But we need to focus on what we can do, rather than fight over what has happened." [/b]
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/22/alaska.bridge.ap/ (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/22/alaska.bridge.ap/)
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I agree, but dont you think Biden is a decent fella? Obama and McCain I believe are both decent people, I just dont trust either party to have my concerns anywhere near what they intend to do once elected.
They're politicians, puppets of the corporate machines. 1 step removed.. a small step... from child molesters, looters and rapists.
We need cleaners.. whistle blowers, champions of ethics in Washington. Now. Only one I've seen in the current field is Palin.. Her chances of survival in the den of thieves is small; but it's something.
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It's goin, goin, gone! :aok McC just knocked it out of the park.
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What a bold, risky move. The main risk is that it requires educating the public, which is always a challenge.
But...
1. She has just as much experience as Obama. A negative for McCain since this removes that message somewhat from the campaign, but then she is VP instead of the Presidential candidate.
2. Change is not lip service for her. Obama did NOTHING of worth in the IL Senate except take credit for other peoples' bills handed to him by his mentor Emil Jones so he could look good. Jones saw the potential early on and set out to make a star. Of all the states that could use change, reform, an end to business as usual IL is probably at the top of the list or close to it. Obama was a Cook County party hack who has not deviated from the interests of the political machine, including endorsing candidates that are practically laughingstocks like Todd Stroger and Dorothy Tillman because that was required. Palin has not only forced real change in her state, she has done it within her own party. Obama looks like the empty suit he is, by comparison. This is really the interesting angle. The compare and contrast to what Obama says and what she actually has done is great.
3. She has some strong social conservative credentials. A negative to some extent, but... she does not appear to be a zealot on the issues and McCain certainly cancels her out with the ticket as a whole. Great for the base, perhaps no worse in general given she is a VP and not out of touch with many on those issues. The atmosphere is electric on the firearm boards. Also, little different from any number of other senior Republicans who still manage to get elected nationally or at the state level.
4. She has the gunowner/hunter vote locked up. Naturally shooting a M-4 on an Army range or posing proudly with the caribou she dropped. I would imagine most of the males in states like Wisconsin will vote for the ticket based on the caribou photo alone and secretly wish she were their wife. The women hunters, will likely wish their husbands were more like her :)
5. The elites in the Democratic party and the media will deride her lack of an Ivy League education, her humble roots, etc. But, they will do so at their peril. She appears formidable. She is admirable. She gives off a Harry Truman vibe. She is a proven reformer. And when people from both parties point to the mess that is Washington she is a full blown outsider. Obama may be a celebrity in the Hollywood mold, but she has the potential to be a celebrity in the "hell of a woman" mold who you would like to have a beer with.
6. Probably wont attract too many Hillery voters but when push comes to shove, they would vote for Obama anyway.
But, it all comes out to educating the public. And, let's assume most people are still voting for the president and not VP in Nov., one would imagine.
Charon
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Yeager, you gather wrong. Fiscal conservative, social moderate pretty much sums up my POV.
So you like to spend other peoples money but not your own? Maybe Yeager is right?
My only concern about Palin is her serious lack of foreign affairs experience.
Her lack of foreign policy experience? She is the VP. Obama wants to be President and has no foreign policy experience. You are not worried about him but you are of hers? I admire your selective rationality.
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I don't think this woman is a bad pick it is a strategic move & some what risky for Senator MC Cain it could back fire. When it is all said & done from what I have seen here in the USA most people are not going to the poles to vote for a Vice President it is for the top job President. After the debates of the respective VP's are over either of them will matter not.
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Pretty funny. She was for the so called "bridge to nowhere" before she was against it.
McCain luvs his flip floppers.
You remind me of a dog I used to know. Damned thing kept trying to bury his bone beneath the kitchen tile floor....dog just kept digging and digging but nothing ever came of it.
Keep digging though, keeps you out of trouble :aok
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There really is no job that prepares one best for being president.
Dang, you is smart!
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I agree. And I have some qualifications though. If the gazillion gets divvied up at the top, so all of you get an extra 15K boost per year, I say "no."
In 2007, the top 50 hedge-fund managers were paid 50 billon dollars. That's 1 billion each. That's 20 million a week. Did I get the decimal point right? Too many zeroes for me to calculate accurately. I run out of fingers and toes.
so your proposal is to put a cap on what amount of money people can make? Or even better, take most of what certain people make and give it to the masses not smart enough or hard working enough to make their own fortunes.
?
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Also, She might shut down drilling for oil in places' like the arctic National wildlife refuge, as she has had a conservationist stance. This could also stretch to offshore drilling in other places, although that hasn't been proven.
Actually Frode, just the opposite is true, she is for drilling in ANWR (and apparently so are most of Alaskans). If I irrc that drilling policy also extends to offshore as well.
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I don't think this woman is a bad pick it is a strategic move & some what risky for Senator MC Cain it could back fire. When it is all said & done from what I have seen here in the USA most people are not going to the poles to vote for a Vice President it is for the top job President. After the debates of the respective VP's are over either of them will matter not.
considering one just turned 72 and the other is black, their veep choices have never meant more ...
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Dang, you is smart!
Thanks for a further positive contribution to this thread! :aok
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There really is no job that prepares one best for being president.
Vice President????????????
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Vice President????????????
:) :aok
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'Foreign policy experience' It has been pointed out several times that she has none. On the other hand, Palin as an outsider is viewed as a positive. Question: HOW can one have 'foreign policy experience', without being a Washington insider? :confused:
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Re: Experience
Obama built and runs an organization that beat the Clintons in the primaries. This says a lot about his executive capabilities.
Palin is a popular governor in a state with so much surplus cash from high oil profits that she can propose giving it away. http://www.adn.com/front/story/442702.html
Palin might be very capable, but how many states have too much cash? It makes governing a state, especially one with a population the size of a large city, much easier.
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The State of Alaska gives cash back to every resident each year from oil profits. An additional payment to help out with high energy costs when oil profits are at their highest is not surprising.
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Considering it was Thomas Jefferson who wrote the letter in question about the intent of the 1st Amendment, well I'll take his word on it.
Thomas Jefferson wasnt even in the country at the time the first amendment was written.
He was in France.
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Thomas Jefferson wasnt even in the country at the time the first amendment was written.
He was in France.
He's not talking about Jefferson writing the 1st Amendment, but rather he is desperately trying to use the letter as evidence of intention. Not that it matters, since the phrase or clause he's trying to invoke is not in the Constitution OR the Bill of Rights, or, for that matter, in any of the subsequent amendments. But he won't let that stop him.
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This thread needs a nap.
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I heard she after she became she laid off the cook at mansion and sold the govenors plane.
I think that shows just how shes gonna be working in Washington. Get rid of the pork and wastfull spending.
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Obama built and runs an organization that beat the Clintons in the primaries. This says a lot about his executive capabilities.
Actually, when you think of the shredding machine that the Clintons are capable of becoming, that is an accomplishment. I assume that there was some outstanding counter-dirty-work required to be in play there which Obama was sly enough to not reveal to the public. Would be an interesting story to hear about.
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Actually, when you think of the shredding machine that the Clintons are capable of becoming, that is an accomplishment. I assume that there was some outstanding counter-dirty-work required to be in play there which Obama was sly enough to not reveal to the public. Would be an interesting story to hear about.
Give it 4 years.
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Give it 4 years.
Why? The Clinterds couldn't get it done this time, what makes you think they will be any more successful next go around?
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Vice President????????????
Would you consider the following presidents to all have been successful, wise presidents based on their experience as VP?
Truman, Johnson, Nixon, Bush Sr.?
Would you consider them superior to everyone else listed?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I heard she after she became she laid off the cook at mansion and sold the govenors plane.
I think that shows just how shes gonna be working in Washington. Get rid of the pork and wastfull spending.
I think the security detail went the way of the wind also.
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Thanks for a further positive contribution to this thread! :aok
you catch on fast :aok
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This thread needs a nap.
Oh, to live on Sugar Mountain
With the barkers and the colored balloons,
You can't be twenty on Sugar Mountain
Though you're thinking that
you're leaving there too soon,
You're leaving there too soon.
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A risky choice. On the one hand, you can't connect her in any way with Bush or Washington. She's truly a political outsider in that respect. The downsides though potentially outweigh the upsides...
1) She has limited political experience. As the VP is only a heartbeat away from the presidency, her nomination undermines the McCain position that Obama is too inexperienced to become president. If Obama is too inexperienced, what does that make Palin?
2) Gender is not a strong predictor of vote choice. If this was meant to woo female voters, or Clinton-leaning voters in particular, it will probably fail. The strongest predictors of vote choice remain partisan affiliation and strength of partisanship. Bush and Kerry split the female vote almost 50-50 in 2004, which is unsurprising since that's pretty much how the parties split in the electorate. It would be surprising, though I suppose not impossible, if gender were to suddenly become an important factor in this election.
-- Todd/Leviathn
As i recall "BUSH" was supposed to be an outsider as well.
You will not see many clinton supporters voteing republican, not many want another 4 years like the last 8.
As far as Palin goes, grasping for straws comes to mind. Did I hear she is under investigation in alaska, something about ordering her x-brother inlaw fired from his state trooper job. didn't catch the whole story, might be nothing, I'm sure we'll hear about it weather it's true or not.
If Obama looses this election it will be for same reason as Kerry, young people talk a good story, but won't be botherd to go vote.
I guess we'll have to wait and see.
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Might as well educate yourselves about the Trooper Thing. Lots of speculation and misinformation out there.
Long-Standing Feud in Alaska Embroils Palin
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/30/AR2008083002366.html
...The trouble between Wooten and the governor's sister broke into the open after an alleged incident in February 2005. Palin told an internal affairs investigator that she overheard on a speakerphone Wooten arguing with her sister and threatening to kill their father. Fearful for her family members' lives, Palin said she drove to her sister's house and watched the argument through a window.
"Wooten's words were, 'I will kill him. He'll eat a [expletive] lead bullet, I'll shoot him,' if our father got the attorney to help Molly," Palin said in an e-mail she wrote in August 2005 to the chief of the state police. "I heard this death threat, my 16-year-old son heard it (Track Palin), Molly heard it, as did their small children. Wooten spoke with his Trooper gun on his hip in an extremely intimidating fashion, leaving no doubt he is serious about taking someone's life who disagrees with him."...
...On March 1, 2006, Grimes sustained the allegations, saying, "The record clearly indicates a serious and concentrated pattern of unacceptable and at times, illegal activity occurring over a lengthy period, which establishes a course of conduct totally at odds with the ethics of our profession." Wooten was suspended for five days....
IF that is true, the Trooper SHOULD have been fired immediately.
Now, if you at least read that whole article, you have something to discuss.
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'Foreign policy experience' It has been pointed out several times that she has none. On the other hand, Palin as an outsider is viewed as a positive. Question: HOW can one have 'foreign policy experience', without being a Washington insider? :confused:
You could have it thru the military, or buisness. You don't nessessarily have to be an insider to have experience.
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I'm pretty sure no one cares.
LOL! :lol
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The obvious skeleton in the closet is that as McC's veep she has as much foreign policy experience as The Obamessiah and he's the top of that ticket.
Well, he might have a tiny edge because he just got back from the National Lampoon's Political European Vacation.
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Actually, when you think of the shredding machine that the Clintons are capable of becoming, that is an accomplishment. I assume that there was some outstanding counter-dirty-work required to be in play there which Obama was sly enough to not reveal to the public. Would be an interesting story to hear about.
Well certainly the Clintons have no Monopoly on under-handed tactics, and I'm sure some die hard Hillary supporters could point to a few thrown at her from Obama. Of course the master is Rove. I'm still amazed at how he torpedoed McCain during the primary in 2000: illegitimate child, Post-traumatic stress disorder, etc.. and we all know where that led us. Still, for the most part, I think both the McCain and Obama campaigns have been relatively above board this cycle.
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Might as well educate yourselves about the Trooper Thing. Lots of speculation and misinformation out there.
Long-Standing Feud in Alaska Embroils Palin
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/30/AR2008083002366.html
IF that is true, the Trooper SHOULD have been fired immediately.
Now, if you at least read that whole article, you have something to discuss.
Good article, make sure you read all 3 pages, sounds like abuse of power to settle old scores to me. should be interesting in oct when the final report comes out.
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(http://www.montypython.art.pl/obrazki/palin2.jpg)
(http://www.alaskareport.com/images/sarah-palin2.jpg)
Hmmm...
Oh yeah it's by marriage...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6a/Todd_Palin.jpg/225px-Todd_Palin.jpg)
I suppose there might be a resemblance.
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Good article, make sure you read all 3 pages, sounds like abuse of power to settle old scores to me. should be interesting in oct when the final report comes out.
If true, sounds like a trooper that should have been fired immediately to me. Death threats while in uniform while wearing the service sidearm? Yah, right. His boss should have canned him tout de suite.
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If true, sounds like a trooper that should have been fired immediately to me. Death threats while in uniform while wearing the service sidearm? Yah, right. His boss should have canned him tout de suite.
I probably would have waited until he was unarmed before I fired him.
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On March 1, 2006, Grimes sustained the allegations, saying, "The record clearly indicates a serious and concentrated pattern of unacceptable and at times, illegal activity occurring over a lengthy period, which establishes a course of conduct totally at odds with the ethics of our profession." Wooten was suspended for five days.
This certainly leads one to believe that the trooper should have been fired and not just suspended for 5 days.
If the death threats are true, then he should have been fired immediately and charges filed against him.
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Actually Frode, just the opposite is true, she is for drilling in ANWR (and apparently so are most of Alaskans). If I irrc that drilling policy also extends to offshore as well.
I did a little reading up on her Elfie; you're right. She put forth the AGIA, which is being used to determine the company that get's the North Slope gasline. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Palin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Palin)
http://www.usatoday.com/money/topstories/2008-07-23-4104671767_x.htm (http://www.usatoday.com/money/topstories/2008-07-23-4104671767_x.htm)
JUNEAU, Alaska — The Alaska State House of Representatives has approved a state license for a Canadian company to pursue a natural gas pipeline project that could unlock 4.5 billion cubic feet of North Slope gas reserves daily.
The House backed the plan on a 24-16 vote Tuesday. A reconsideration vote is planned Wednesday, but that's usually a formality. If approved then, the bill will go to the state Senate, which must approve or reject it before Aug. 2.
Lawmakers in Alaska's House voted to support Gov. Sarah Palin's proposal to award TransCanada Corp. an exclusive license to pursue federal certification for the 1,715-mile pipeline estimated to cost between $26 billion and $30 billion.
TransCanada Vice President Tony Palmer wasn't ready to celebrate just yet, nor would he make any predictions on how the Senate's vote will play out.
"I'm always uncertain until I see the votes," Palmer said. "I had no expectations as to how the votes would go until I saw the buttons pressed."
FIND MORE STORIES IN: United States Senate | Legislature | Arctic | ConocoPhillips | Exxon Mobil Corp | North Slope | Gov. Frank Murkowski | Gov. Sarah Palin | Denali | Alaska Gasline Inducement Act | TransCanada Corp | Anchorage Republican | Anchorage Democrat
The license doesn't guarantee pipeline construction. It simply calls for TransCanada to embark on a costly process of pursuing a federal certificate, but also with up to $500 million in state seed money.
There's the rub, said Rep. Mike Hawker, an Anchorage Republican who spoke out against the Alaska Gasline Inducement Act, or AGIA, license before casting a dissenting vote.
"We have to make it very clear is that this AGIA license is not a commitment to do anything other than process a whole lot of paper," Hawker said. "There is no commitment to move a shovel full of dirt toward a pipeline project."
Rep. Les Gara, an Anchorage Democrat, backed Palin's endorsement of TransCanada with the same understanding as Hawker, but with a different outlook.
"I think this is going to put the state on a stable footing," Gara said. "There is no clear path to a gas line. This is the clearest path to a gas line that protects the state's interest. That's all it is."
Even if the Senate concurs, it will still be at least another 10 years before any market sees Arctic gas. And there is still a competing pipeline moving forward without the state's startup money.
That project is a joint venture between North Slope oil producers and gas leaseholders ConocoPhillips and BP PLC, who believed Palin's AGIA format was too restrictive.
In the end, Majority Leader Ralph Samuels said the it's not the government's role to pick a winner. The Anchorage Republican was the lone dissenting vote when the law as passed last year, but had more support this year.
"The government is ill equipped to pick a winner in the marketplace," Samuels said. "We've simply blessed a winner in AGIA here."
House Rules Chairman John Coghill, a North Pole Republican, disagreed before voting yes.
"We are not picking a winner here, because there is not gas going to market," Samuels said. "What we are picking here is somebody who will work with us under certain conditions.
"It gets us lined up with a pipeline builder who not only who knows how to do it, but we get to know how they do it both in cost and timeline."
The vote takes the state another step away from a contract unsuccessfully pushed by former Gov. Frank Murkowski.
He settled in principle with BP, Exxon Mobil Corp. and ConocoPhillips on fiscal terms -- taxes and royalties -- for producing the North Slope gas.
The deal would have frozen oil taxes for 30 years and gas taxes for up to 45 years for the three major oil companies, but it did not guarantee a pipeline would get built.
The Legislature would not vote on it because many lawmakers believed it was too much of a giveaway to the energy industry, about $10 billion over the lifetime of the deal.
This Legislature, however, acted under AGIA, a year-old law that established bid requirements for those interested in building a pipeline.
It was also a law had BP, ConocoPhillips and Exxon Mobil balking and refusing to submit plan under those guidelines last at the Nov. 30, 2007 deadline.
TransCanada's was one of five applications that applied and the only one deemed compliant under the AGIA guidelines. Meanwhile BP and ConocoPhillips weighed in three months ago their a pipeline project called Denali.
And the two companies have already filed paperwork for preliminary federal permitting and $40 million worth of field work is under way.
But Denali's 12- to 15-page plan is routinely criticized as sorely lacking details compared to TransCanada's itemized offering found in thick three-ring binders.
Some lawmakers believed turning back TransCanada would have left Alaska only with the Denali plan and would set the state back several years.
"I don't want to go back to where I was with the oil companies completely running the show," said Rep. Mike Kelly, a Republican.
"I do not wish to go return to a one-option scenario that has been sold to us with a power-point presentation," he said. "If we turn this down that would be a serious, serious mistake."
What I wanna know is, what happens' to that pipeline if she leaves the Alaskan govornor's office before it's all straightened out? She might wish that she had not left before everything was completed.
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I've met Sarah Palin in person, she's a nice lady :)
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Actually Frode, just the opposite is true, she is for drilling in ANWR (and apparently so are most of Alaskans). If I irrc that drilling policy also extends to offshore as well.
Actually there are areas she's totally aginst drilling. That post I made before about her stating she didn't support drilling was true. However it was a limited area, some bay (I forget the name). She head butted with Bush over because of the fishing industry which is where the quote I had came from. So that quote I posted before was true it's just wasn't her entire view on the subject which is where I got mislead.
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Thomas Jefferson wasnt even in the country at the time the first amendment was written.
He was in France.
TJ wrote the letter while he was President explaining to the church about what he believed that 1st amendment meant in regard to separation of church and state. I never said he wrote the 1st amendment. Madison most likely actually wrote the that part of the 1st and he had pretty much the same views as Jefferson on that subject.
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The marriage of presidential elections and reality TV shows has been consumated.
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the first couple are pretty up front and honest and.. a few of the liberal weenies are upfront and honest but.. by far the most dishonest are the total liberal weenies on this board who pretend to not be.. the dreds and the morays the ones who claim to be middle of the road but would fit in fine in a san francisco save the illegal aliens parade.
lazs
LMAO Laz You are clueless as to what I am.
But I like what you say because it proves that Im middle of the road.
Liberals I know IRL tell me Im a right winger.
And the very epitome of right wing..you. Call me a liberal.
LMAO
That tells me I probably have it right.
I AM a voice of moderation. because I see that neither side has all the answers. Neither side is right , nor wrong all the time. And I see that each side is made up of total whack jobs who will disagree with the other side simply because it was from the other side. Doesnt matter if it was a good idea or not. the other side had it therefore it must be bad.
And I also see that each side if left to rule unchecked would run amuck and grind us into the ground under their own brand of oppression and ideology.
Laz be honest with yourself.
Admit to what everyone else already knows.
Politically you care about one thing and one thing only above all others.
Guns.
Everything else is just fluff
And just for the record in case you forget.
Im the one that condones Shooting Illegal aliens.
Oh and I also voted for Bush..twice. Funny how I wasnt labeled a Liberal back then huh.
But I guess because I agreed with you. I was a voice of reason.
Im with you on the second. but its not the entire picture.
And the entire picture is what I vote on.
Im sorry guns as much as I support private ownership of them haven't entered the same near godlike status in my life.
Im more concerned with "promoting the general welfare" of the country. the entire picture.
Not one or two issues. That as I have said before Probably arent going to change anyway.
The Republicans in spite of having the presidency and control of both houses for several years STILL wasnt able to overturn Roe V
Wade.
Im more concerned with promoting the general welfare of the entire country. Not just one or two segments. And not on one or two issues
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Women with guns :aok
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/linda-hamilton-terminator.jpg)
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Actually there are areas she's totally aginst drilling. That post I made before about her stating she didn't support drilling was true. However it was a limited area, some bay (I forget the name). She head butted with Bush over because of the fishing industry which is where the quote I had came from. So that quote I posted before was true it's just wasn't her entire view on the subject which is where I got mislead.
I'm not finding anything on that. All the information I've found so far indicates a favorable attitude towards drilling in ANWR and offshore with no mention of areas she considers off limits to drilling.
Fishing is a huge industry in Alaska, virtually all the coastal areas have some sort of fishery, whether it's salmon runs, cod or halibut fishing. Then there is the offshore crabbing industry. The fishing industry would be a concern in most areas of Alaskan waters.
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But I like what you say because it proves that Im middle of the road.
I AM a voice of moderation.
While I am not passing judgement on you, I don't follow what your post, and to be honest rarely read it, I would like to say that your comments above are the same felt by just about everyone. If you ask a right wing or left winger, they would say the same about themselves.
It is my experience that the far left think they are centrists.
I honestly don't know about you, but I am a right winger, I admit it and am proud of it.
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you catch on fast :aok
Tell me, Yeager. Who am I gonna vote for in the next election?
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Simple fact...
Sarah Palin is the only one of the Four, who has actually been in an ELECTED DRIVERS SEAT....
McCain, and Biden, have many years in .gov service yes, but YAPPING IN COMMITTEE...
Obama, has neither!!!
RC
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Here's a bit on Troopergate from the Anchorage Daily News (I still read it quite often). From an interview with Pailn yesterday:
"Q. Is Troopergate going to hurt your candidacy?
A. No, not when you consider ... I did not pressure commissioner Monegan to hire or fire anybody. And commissioner Monegan confirmed that again today. As he had been confirming all along but I think that had been ignored.
And so, no I'm not worried about that. "
http://www.adn.com/sarahpalin/story/511512.html
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Would you consider the following presidents to all have been successful, wise presidents based on their experience as VP?
Truman, Johnson, Nixon, Bush Sr.?
Would you consider them superior to everyone else listed?
-- Todd/Leviathn
T least they had experience when they did become President. Something Obama won't have if hes elected.
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todd.. I am still not getting it. from your own list the only one that didn't have executive experience was Ike and he ran an entire war... whole countries.
JFK was shot before anyone knew anything about him other than his dad bought the election. Some VP's made bad presidents tho.
I failed to find a good one that had no life experience and two years as a senator that stood out tho.
lazs
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And.. If she ran the country like she runs Alaska then I could not be more pleased.
course.. if you want a two year senator who is in bed with chicago politics and corruption instead..
lazs
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Women with guns :aok
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/linda-hamilton-terminator.jpg)
:aok
They should have just ended the series with that one.
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dred.. I will be charitable and say that maybe you do think you are centrist... as has been pointed out... leftists think that they are centrist.. I rarely see an individualist or libertarian like myself who would call himself centrist.
I have seen your "well reasoned" replies for years.... if you are a called a right winger by your friends then.. new jersey (or your part of it) is even more far gone than I thought. Like someone in san francisco being called "right wing" it doesn't take much.
Guns? it is the second amendment after all and.. the one that actually can protect the others but... If you were to be honest.. and have actually read, as you claim, what I have written then you would see that I am an individualist.. for individual freedom.. NOT, like you socialism or.. as you call it.. the "general welfare"
Please tell me how being concerned about the "general welfare" and individual rights can go to together or.. how "the general welfare" and socialism are different?
I am being charitable when I say that you believe that you are centrist.. that you really don't know how far left you are... otherwise I would have to look at your pretend "fair and balanced" posts and conclude that you are no more honest than most lefties.
Your fair and balanced reasoning is like listening to NPR when they have a "discussion" ... "are the republicans truly evil or just really stupid bad people?" "we will hear nancy pelosi on the truly evil and in defense of the republicans only being stupid and bad we will have jesse jackson."
That is what I see in your posts for "joisey"
lazs
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what I have written then you would see that I am an individualist.. for individual freedom.. NOT, like you socialism or.. as you call it.. the "general welfare"
Please tell me how being concerned about the "general welfare" and individual rights can go to together or.. how "the general welfare" and socialism are different?
Lazs,
Why is individualism superior?
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it is not superior.. it is the only way. first you allow individual freedom so long as it does not harm others... then as individuals we can help each other.
not.. well.. say you lived out in the sticks in the old west with no real law. say that your neighbors.. all 10 or so of em from miles away all came over one day and said.. "we are going to build a church and a school for the general welfare and you need to pay for your share and work on it with us"
You say.. "well.. I am not religious and think it is not a good thing.. I home school and think that is superior.. I don't like the way you have organized the school." I think I will pass.
They say.. if you don't then we will come back with badges and guns and take your livestock and possesions and sell them to pay your fair share of the general good"
You say.."if you try I will resist" they say.... "if you resist, we will have to kill you or.. if you survive we will build a jail to put you in."
I probly give more to charity than most of the socialists on this board. maybe not.. I bet I do tho. I don't want you or anyone else telling me who and when and how much tho.
That is why individualism is superior to socialism.
Individualism is the natural order..it is our birthright.. anything else is forced.
This country was founded on those principles but has strayed.. democracy has trumped individual rights.. the wolves are voting that the sheep be dinner.
Not all individual rights are ones that I agree with or would exercise but.. I would defend them in word and deed.
Palin is more like that.. more of constitututionalist and individualist than any politician I have seen in the running in a long time save some libertarians who never have a shot.
In short.. I am no threat to the socialists.. I don't tell them what to do.. they are a threat to me.. I don't want to interfere in their life but they are never happy until they control every aspect of mine.
lazs
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T least they had experience when they did become President. Something Obama won't have if hes elected.
Lincoln had no executive experience when he was elected, and almost no legislative experience on top of that. Of those I listed, Eisenhower had plenty of executive experience in the military, but no political experience of which to speak. On the other hand, Jimmy Carter had plenty of executive experience. Johnson had both extensive political experience (as a Representative, Senator, Senate Majority Leader) as well as executive experience (VP). How would you place him relative to others on the list?
Even VP experience doesn't necessarily prepare one for the presidency. I would argue, for example, that Bush Sr. was so intent on showing he was not Reagan that he initially organized his White House in an extremely poor, inefficient way. He apparently had learned nothing about how to run an efficient White House under Reagan (who in his first term had managed to create one of the most well-organized, efficient organizations to date). Clinton, a governor, had one of the worst transitions to power in modern times. George W. Bush, also a governor, had one of the best.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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first you allow individual freedom so long as it does not harm others... then as individuals we can help each other.
I probly give more to charity than most of the socialists on this board. maybe not.. I bet I do tho. I don't want you or anyone else telling me who and when and how much tho.
Individualism is the natural order..it is our birthright.. anything else is forced.
This country was founded on those principles but has strayed.. democracy has trumped individual rights
Not all individual rights are ones that I agree with or would exercise but.. I would defend them in word and deed.
Palin is more like that.. more of constitututionalist and individualist than any politician I have seen in the running in a long time save some libertarians who never have a shot.
In short.. I am no threat to the socialists.. I don't tell them what to do.. they are a threat to me.. I don't want to interfere in their life but they are never happy until they control every aspect of mine.
lazs[/quote]
Thanks! Will get back. Would love to talk about natural law. You done any study of it or have some notions to trade back and forth?
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As has been pointed out on this BBS, Lincoln, although revered by many, trampled the Constitution far more than just about any other President. I'm not sure I'd sure use him as an example of a good President.
If tEh EeVEEee11 Boosh had treated the Constitution the way Lincoln did, the chart of liberal heart attacks would have gone vertical.
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ya know hap.. that idea of repeating back everything someone says so that you seem/have a grasp of what they said?
It works for speech but is pretty much a non issue for print. you can just go back and read.
I would be glad to discuss any of my views with you.. start a thread... ask a question.
lazs
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yep... I would not use lincoln as an example of how someone who knew nothing and ran nothing was a good pres.
In my opinion.. lincoln did more harm to the country than any other president in history. He wasn't so much a bad pres.... a bad executive... as he was one who destroyed what the country was about.
carter and lbj and fdr were governors and they were classic bad presidents but.. they were extreme socialists too... they let that interfere.. change.. the job.. just as osamabinbiden wants to change what a POTUS should do.
It would seem that your list just proves that liberals can do harm no matter what their background.
Palin is not a liberal. I would 1,000 times rather live under her rule in Alaska than even visit the craphole that is chicago.
Alaska... Chicago... you be the judge.
lazs
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todd.. I am still not getting it. from your own list the only one that didn't have executive experience was Ike and he ran an entire war... whole countries.
JFK was shot before anyone knew anything about him other than his dad bought the election. Some VP's made bad presidents tho.
I failed to find a good one that had no life experience and two years as a senator that stood out tho.
lazs
JFK ...you are kidding right?
Does the Cuba missile crisis mean anything to you?
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The marriage of presidential elections and reality TV shows has been consumated.
...In the back of my mind, it leads' me to think that as well. I'm afraid myself that they are just using this woman as an election stunt. What i've been wondering about is what this does to her political career if McCain loses? Where can she go from there?
Also, I'm wondering how she will handle being under really close scrutiny...This won't be like politics back home. I'm sure, even now, there are people digging into her background as deep as they can go to find something they can use against her. I wonder how she will fare in fending those off?
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Here's a bit on Troopergate from the Anchorage Daily News (I still read it quite often). From an interview with Pailn yesterday:
"Q. Is Troopergate going to hurt your candidacy?
A. No, not when you consider ... I did not pressure commissioner Monegan to hire or fire anybody. And commissioner Monegan confirmed that again today. As he had been confirming all along but I think that had been ignored.
And so, no I'm not worried about that. "
http://www.adn.com/sarahpalin/story/511512.html
She should be. If there's anywhere for some snoop to get his crowbar in, they will pry.
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I AM a voice of moderation. because I see that neither side has all the answers. Neither side is right , nor wrong all the time. -
All due respect Dred, it sounds like you are confused - or talking apples and oranges. If your decisions are based on principle, it doesn't matter what "side" others may assign to you. You make decisions either towards socialism or away from it. Towards liberty or away from it. Towards the original consitution or away from it.
Rather than Democrats and Republicans (composed of people), its better to think in terms of liberalism and conservatism (ideologies) Then, it is easy to know where you will make your stand.
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lazs,
The simple truth is you can't have total equality and total liberty at the same time. It doesn't work.
Defending individual rights mean squat if I use my individual rights trample on yours. The government must take responsibility to ensure that everyone has the opportunity equal to EXERCISE their individual rights. Pure individualism DOES NOT ALLOW this because of simple human nature. Human beings NATURALLY are going to look out for one person or group: Themselves and their own families and to hell with anyone else's rights. We're a greedy and selfish species and you see this happening the world over from the beginning of recorded history right down to today. To use your own example of the West, that's EXACTLY what was happening out there. Miners, the railroads, free range ranchers, cattle barons, sheep herders, and small and large farmers were all at war with each other because each wanted the land for THEIR purpose and dammed if they were going to share it with anyone else.
It IS the protection of general welfare and the common good to ensure that ALL citizens are allowed the equal opportunity to exercise those rights. That's where socialism comes in, because left to itself society would naturally degenerate into the chaos of "survival of the fittest" and you'll see men like JP Morgan and the Rockefellers again who have a stranglehold on the national economy.
The problem is when the protection of the general welfare and common good goes TOO far and the need for the rights or contributions of the individual are ignored.
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I've met Sarah Palin in person, she's a nice lady :)
(http://bp2.blogger.com/_uExTzMIDd1Y/R2O5nKq9_tI/AAAAAAAAATE/At2bb_K_3ao/s400/Sarah-Palin-Vogue.jpg)
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JFK ...you are kidding right?
Does the Cuba missile crisis mean anything to you?
yes, it means that JFK failed to follow up on the bay of pigs and that brought the missiles to Cuba.
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yes, it means that JFK failed to follow up on the bay of pigs and that brought the missiles to Cuba.
Understand the context of the quote before you jackboot your response
... And on that note - you think the Bay of Pigs was a good idea?
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The right, when they see anyone saying anything that is to the left of what they believe, is pointed to and labeled a left winger or liberal.
The Left, when they see anyone saying anything to the right of them is pointed to and labeled a right winger.
The centrists and moderates are the ones that get pointed at by both sides.
Centrists and moderates see there is both good and bad from each side. And may seemingly lean left or right depending on the issue at hand.
THAT is me.
Laz, New Joisey is a Democratic state. Has been for a while.
New York is about as baseline liberal as you can get.
Lotta New Yawkas living in New Joisey these days.
San Franciscans arent left wing.
They are beyond it and should have a category all to themselves. Even the baseline Librals here think San Fransico is out there in the great beyond weird.
so that is a rather poor analogy
"I am being charitable when I say that you believe that you are centrist.. that you really don't know how far left you are... otherwise I would have to look at your pretend "fair and balanced" posts and conclude that you are no more honest than most lefties.
" "
I too have watched your posts for years
The same could be said about you Laz. You may have been an individualist once. But I dont think you have yet realized how far right you have become
"
Your fair and balanced reasoning is like listening to NPR when they have a "discussion" ... "are the republicans truly evil or just really stupid bad people?" "we will hear nancy pelosi on the truly evil and in defense of the republicans only being stupid and bad we will have jesse jackson.
The absurdidty of this statement only tells me that the only things that stick out in your mind are the posts of mine you do not agree with.
I've typed out alot of words in the last 8 years defending republican positions.
Certainly moreso then I have the left.
But as seems to be a typical movement on your part. I, as well as several others here Im sure have noticed
The moment someone speaks out against the right. or your positions in general. They are labeled by you a "liberal weenie". or an "Obamamama" supporter.
As though resorting to the tactics of a 10 year old might somehow change their minds.
If you were truely the "individualist" you claim to be. We should be seeing as many rants about right "wing nutjobs" as we do "Left wing weenies"
But we dont.
Oh sure there may be one here and there. but not everyone agrees with their lover all the time.
By and large. the vast majority of your posts reaffirm your commitment to the right and condemn the left.
I encourage you to go through your posts and prove me wrong.
I encourage ANYONE to go through Laz's posts and prove to me how much of an "individualist" he is.
"Promoting the general Welfare" is in the Constitution as well as the second. but Im sure you know that already.
PURPOSE AND EFFECT OF THE PREAMBLE
Although the preamble is not a source of power for any department of the Federal Government, 1 the Supreme Court has often referred to it as evidence of the origin, scope, and purpose of the Constitution. 2 ''Its true office,'' wrote Joseph Story in his COMMENTARIES, ''is to expound the nature and extent and application of the powers actually conferred by the Constitution, and not substantively to create them. For example, the preamble declares one object to be, 'to provide for the common defense.' No one can doubt that this does not enlarge the powers of Congress to pass any measures which they deem useful for the common defence. But suppose the terms of a given power admit of two constructions, the one more restrictive, the other more liberal, and each of them is consistent with the words, but is, and ought to be, governed by the intent of the power; if one could promote and the other defeat the common defence, ought not the former, upon the soundest principles of interpretation, to be adopted?'' 3
1 Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11, 22 (1905).
2 E.g., the Court has read the preamble as bearing witness to the fact that the Constitution emanated from the people and was not the act of sovereign and independent States, McCulloch v. Maryland, 17 U.S. (4 Wheat.) 316, 403 (1819) Chisholm v. Georgia, 2 U.S. (2 Dall.) 419, 471 (1793); Martin v. Hunter's Lessee, 14 U.S. (1 Wheat.) 304, 324 (1816), and that it was made for, and is binding only in, the United States of America. Downes v. Bidwell, 182 U.S. 244, 251 (1901); In re Ross, 140 U.S. 453, 464 (1891).
3 1 J. Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States (Boston: 1833), 462. For a lengthy exegesis of the preamble phrase by phrase, see M. Adler & W. Gorman, The American Testament (New York: 1975), 63-118.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/preamble/
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Understand the context of the quote before you jackboot your response
... And on that note - you think the Bay of Pigs was a good idea?
It was a good idea, right up to the point where JFK decided to WITHOLD the US air support he had already guaranteed he would send during the invasion.
Of course you are happy and pleased no doubt that Cuba has had such a wonderful era under the tutelage of the great one, the messiah, Fidel.
Im also betting you were a grand supporter of Janet Reno and her wonderful decision to return Elian Gonzalez to Cuba after his mother lost her life trying to
free him from a life of communism there.
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It was a good idea, right up to the point where JFK decided to WITHOLD the US air support he had already guaranteed he would send during the invasion.
Of course you are happy and pleased no doubt that Cuba has had such a wonderful era under the tutelage of the great one, the messiah, Fidel.
Im also betting you were a grand supporter of Janet Reno and her wonderful decision to return Elian Gonzalez to Cuba after his mother lost her life trying to
free him from a life of communism there.
Wow - you sure make some major assumptions...
Also....this still does not show how your response to the original post relates to anything...get off the coffee, you are a little high strung..
Why do you assume I think that Fidel was a messiah?...your words... But, the bay of pigs was a cluster*** from the beginning..and the promise of military involvement ...where do you find that fact?..or is it a story you were told and you believe?...
As for Elian Gonzalez.... last thing I read about him was that he was quite content.....he is with his father..who had every right to demand that his child be returned to him...How it was handled unfortunately was very poorly done...but was the legal and right thing to do...maybe he didn't want to end up thinking that it was wrong to live in Cuba...just because you do...maybe he wanted to live with his father...not some loony aunt who used the media ...or do fathers rights not fit into your picture of the perfect world?
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All due respect Dred, it sounds like you are confused - or talking apples and oranges. If your decisions are based on principle, it doesn't matter what "side" others may assign to you. You make decisions either towards socialism or away from it. Towards liberty or away from it. Towards the original consitution or away from it.
Rather than Democrats and Republicans (composed of people), its better to think in terms of liberalism and conservatism (ideologies) Then, it is easy to know where you will make your stand.
I am all for the original Constitution . But just because some of my views may seem to be left doesnt mean I am for socialism.
Example. I am for some social programs yes.
I am for tossing someone a rope so they can help climb out of a hole.
but your going to have to do the climbing yourself.
I'm for giving someone a pick and shovel. but you have to find and dig the goldmine yourself.
Im for giving people training to do better rather then saying "heh, sucks to be you"
Im for helping people help themselves. Not giving them all they want.
Long term it is in everyone's benefit.
By just giving out welfare, or ignoring the situation. You only feed the problem and make it worse.
I would hope we would have learned some lessons from things like the French revolution.
If you think we should cut out welfare. Fine Im all for it.
But if your going to cut out welfare. Cut out welfare for everyone. Rich and poor alike.
I am against welfare for already ridiculously wealthy corporations as well.
I am also against giving out welfare to states. Which these days amounts to little more then federal blackmail and bribary of states.
If the Gov is going to be int he business of handing out money to companies. It should be to the small companies. not the already large and hugely successful ones. Which little by little are squeezing the smaller upcoming businesses out of existence.
.
Thats not socialism. Thats investment into capitolism
We are as a country only going to be as strong as our weakest link.
It is only common sense that we try to strengthen those weak links with things like training.
Im not talking handouts. Im talking something that has to be worked for.
Toss em a rope. but they have to do the climbing themselves.
I agree that if we were to follow the left we would head towards socialism
But if we only follow the right. We are headed towards feudalism.
Neither one is liberty
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In other words, as I said it:
The government's responsibility is NOT to MAKE everyone equal, but to ensure everyone has the equal OPPORTUNITY.
What you make FROM that opportunity is YOUR job, not the government's.
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Might as well educate yourselves about the Trooper Thing. Lots of speculation and misinformation out there.
Long-Standing Feud in Alaska Embroils Palin
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/30/AR2008083002366.html
IF that is true, the Trooper SHOULD have been fired immediately.
Now, if you at least read that whole article, you have something to discuss.
Toad -
That article definately gives me the impression she was trying to get the guy fired. Whether he deserved it or not, I don't know. But even looking at "her side of the story" it seems as though they were doing their best to get the guy fired from his job.
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saxman... please give me an example of where mean old human nature would prevent individualism with a good and fair court system from working.
lazs
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But, the bay of pigs was a cluster*** from the beginning..and the promise of military involvement ...where do you find that fact?..or is it a story you were told and you believe?...
John F. Kennedy Presidential Library and Museum
JFK in History: The Bay of Pigs
http://www.jfklibrary.org/Historical+Resources/JFK+in+History/JFK+and+the+Bay+of+Pigs.htm
What Went Wrong
The first major error occurred on April 15, 1961, when eight B-26 bombers left Nicaragua to bomb Cuban airfields. The operation failed to destroy the entire arsenal of planes, leaving most of Castro's air force intact. The CIA had used obsolete World War II B-26 bombers, and painted them to look like Cuban air force planes. As news broke of the attack and American complicity became apparent after photos of the repainted planes became public, President Kennedy cancelled the second air strike.
On April 17, the Cuban-exile invasion force, or Brigade 2506, landed at beaches along the Bay of Pigs and immediately came under heavy fire. The planes left unharmed in the earlier air attack strafed the invaders, sank two escort ships, and destroyed half of the exile's air support. Bad weather hampered the ground force, which had to work with soggy equipment and low stores of ammunition.
During the next 24 hours, Castro had 20,000 troops advancing on the beach and the Cuban Air Force continued to control the skies. As the situation grew increasingly grim, President Kennedy authorized an “air-umbrella” at dawn on April 19, which called for six unmarked American fighter planes to help defend the Brigade's B-26 aircraft flying from Nicaragua. But the B-26s arrived an hour late (most likely due to time zone confusion) and were shot down by the Cubans. The invasion was crushed later that day. Some exiles escaped to the sea, while the rest were killed or rounded up and imprisoned by Castro’s forces. Almost 1200 Brigade members had surrendered and more than 100 had been killed.
There's where you find that fact. The second strike could easily have made ALL the difference. Without any aircraft, Castro would have been on the wrong side of the air superiority issue.
Not enough proof?
Time Magazine: Bay of Pigs Revisited Friday, Feb. 01, 1963
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,829744-1,00.html
Targets of Opportunity. Whether or not the invaders were promised U.S. air cover, they were indeed promised air cover of a sort. It was to be provided by some 20 obsolescent B26. bombers, resurrected from U.S. Air Force storage by the CIA. The pilots were mostly Cuban exiles, but some were U.S. citizens (at least one U.S. pilot was killed during the invasion attempt). The bombers took off from a CIA-managed base at Puerto Cabezas, Nicaragua.
The basic mission of this semi-clandestine bomber force was to destroy Castro's planes on the ground before the invasion was launched. That task, the invasion planners decided, would take three days of repeated strikes at "targets of opportunity." After that, the bombers were supposed to provide close support for the invaders as they moved over the beaches. But shortly before the invasion got under way, White House orders went out limiting the B-26 force to two pre-invasion strikes. The first ineffectual sortie, two days before Dday, set off rumblings at the United Nations, so Kennedy called off the second strike, scheduled for the morning of the invasion. After the invaders scrambled ashore, Kennedy ordered the second strike reinstated, but it was too little and way too late.
Apparently YOU are the one believing what "you were told to believe".
History; don't be afraid of it, it's your friend.
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Urchin, I'm sure we have not heard the last of it. A little more digging and detail won't hurt.
If the guy made a death threat on your father and you later became gov, would you try to get him fired?
I admit I'm not a perfect person and I probably would try to get him fired.
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we can all agree in equality of opportunity. That has nothing to do with extorting good from a person who has earned them and giving to someone who hasn't.
I give freely but I resent you telling me what is for "the common good".
Providing for the common good to me means that the government provides the means of addressing grievences in a fair and just court system. That is all the government you need.. that and a wing of the court to enforce it.
I am not an anarchist but close to it.. the minimum government is the best.
I hear saxman and dred tell me about the common good and how just and fair and inevitable and necessary it is yet.. when you read their posts you see nothing but a slippery slope and more government than any of the founders ever invisioned... in fact... more government than any early 1900's sci fi writer ever dreamed of.
Nope.. you simply can not allow... no matter what.. the majority.. a democracy.. to vote away individual rights under any guise.. especially that of "the common good"
There is no ill that a limited government with stong defense of individual rights and a just court system could not fix.
There is no ill that a strong government that is pure democracy can not make worse.
dred.. I would love to see examples of where I have gone straight republican when they were trampling individual rights...
Perhaps it is my stance on legalizing all drugs? Maybe defending unborn citizens? perhaps it is my thinking on concealed carry and the right to defend yourself? Maybe my views on all victimless crime? The patriot act?
Nope.. I can make the right wing conservatives as angry as I make you liberals.
If I were a liberal tho.. I would not pretend to be a centrist.
lazs
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Interesting discussion developing...
Laz.. You need 200 acres up the back of a valley. Call it 'Coventry'. Load up a wagon, head on in and live that 'individual' life; while you still have a chance. You won't have that opportunity for long... bear in mind, a bunch socialist weenies will be trying to snoop and trespass, so keep yer powder dry. When they drag you back out and stick you in the slammer for whatever BS transgression they can pin on yah, I suspect you'll need a liberal weenie lawyer.
Dred.. You and I will be raging against the machine till they stick us in the ground. It's nice to have principals, but like everything else, it's got a price. Unless we're standing guard mount at laz's wall, If we want to keep our jobs, plates on our cars, gas in the tank and food on the table, we're gonna have to accept the fascist coupon book and shop wallmart, fasten our seatbelts & stop for the red lights on the way home.
IMHO.. it's now down to being all about the cheese. How much 'they' got; who makes it, what kind, where I can get some, how much it's gonna cost me. For the last 40 years, the price has been going up... as with everything else cheese related. This once promising land of 'freedom and equality' has devolved into a facsist 'have and have not' society. Those that got the cheese, those that don't. That's the choice... accept the covenant, get your cheese... defy it, no cheese.
Not much wiggle room for 'principals'.... I agree, they are precious, but abstract ideals in a reality of cheese leave the rats with the supply lines pretty much in the drivers seat.
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While I am not passing judgement on you, I don't follow what your post, and to be honest rarely read it, I would like to say that your comments above are the same felt by just about everyone. If you ask a right wing or left winger, they would say the same about themselves.
It is my experience that the far left think they are centrists.
I honestly don't know about you, but I am a right winger, I admit it and am proud of it.
Good for you! Really. Thats not even meant sarcastically.
I applaud you for your admission.
I outside of a particular thread I may be involved in dont go out of my way to follow anyones postings either.
But know this. As far as Im concerned each thread is what it is. Unless there are other threads similar to it. Anything I say begins and ends in that thread.
Example.
Laz and I may beat and bloody each other in this thread in disagreement.
But I will also gladly stand shoulder to shoulder with him in agreement in another thread.
Same goes for anyone else.
Believe it or not I actually like Laz and respect him for his outspokenness on a variety of issues. That I will agree and not agree with.
Actually I cant think of too many here I dont like.
But that doesnt mean I wont square off and banter with anyone. Its just one of the things I enjoy doing here.
Just dont take anything I say too personally. I dont.
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Laz tell me
Exactly which individual right have I condoned voting away?
And I called on you to prove me wrong.
Dont try flipping it.
Call me a liberal if you like. doesnt matter. My views are both liberal and conservative and inbetween based on the subject at hand.
Your views fall almost exclusively conservative as is evidenced by your constant accusing people of being liberal who do not agree with you.
what I want from my government is the same thing I want from everyone else.
If you wont or cant help. At least get the hell out of the way and leave me the hell alone.
Dont help the big guy if your not going to help the little guy too.
Example
Let the large scale widget companies pay for their own exploration and R&D.
In the end it will only hurt their actual profits short term.
And they still cant charge more for widgets then demand can afford to pay.
If my government is going to help. Then help everyone. just just the conglomerates.
And if everyone should be left to do for themselves. then let everyone do for themselves. Including the conglomerates.
Level the playing field one way or the other but level the playing field.
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Interesting discussion developing...
Laz.. You need 200 acres up the back of a valley. Call it 'Coventry'. Load up a wagon, head on in and live that 'individual' life; while you still have a chance. You won't have that opportunity for long... bear in mind, a bunch socialist weenies will be trying to snoop and trespass, so keep yer powder dry. When they drag you back out and stick you in the slammer for whatever BS transgression they can pin on yah, I suspect you'll need a liberal weenie lawyer.
Dred.. You and I will be raging against the machine till they stick us in the ground. It's nice to have principals, but like everything else, it's got a price. Unless we're standing guard mount at laz's wall, If we want to keep our jobs, plates on our cars, gas in the tank and food on the table, we're gonna have to accept the fascist coupon book and shop wallmart, fasten our seatbelts & stop for the red lights on the way home.
IMHO.. it's now down to being all about the cheese. How much 'they' got; who makes it, what kind, where I can get some, how much it's gonna cost me. For the last 40 years, the price has been going up... as with everything else cheese related. This once promising land of 'freedom and equality' has devolved into a facsist 'have and have not' society. Those that got the cheese, those that don't. That's the choice... accept the covenant, get your cheese... defy it, no cheese.
Not much wiggle room for 'principals'.... I agree, they are precious, but abstract ideals in a reality of cheese leave the rats with the supply lines pretty much in the drivers seat.
So, in other words, No matter how noble a concept that you believe you live under, no matter what kind of words you use in any constitution or form of gov't. you live under...you are still at the mercy of the few who do hold any sort of power, Economically or politically.
It's too bad that any gov't., no matter what it's laws, or idealogy, or bill of rights, even our own, is in truth only as good as the people that implement it. If you think about it, Communism in Russia was killed by corruption of it's ideals, by the individuals that were in positions of power, more than any one thing. But corruption has also killed monarchy's, and yes, even democratically based representative or parliamentary gov'ts. Such as Nicauragua under Somoza, Or Cuba under Batista.
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Oh, I'm not passing judgment on her. I think almost everyone would try to get him fired. If he did what they SAY he did, I'm not sure why he wasn't fired, if they had proof of it.
Of course, he and his wife were in the process of a divorce at the time. From what I've seen, most divorces aren't exactly amicable, and even 'close' families tend to split among bloodlines. I know my family absolutely hates my sisters ex-husband, and tend to ascribe all sorts of diabolical behavior to him. I'm not exactly close to my sister, so I tend to be somewhat more objective on view these claims with a somewhat cynical eye. By 'these claims', I mean any claim made about the behavior of an ex-spouse, even by people I'm not related to.
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I hear saxman and dred tell me about the common good and how just and fair and inevitable and necessary it is yet.. when you read their posts you see nothing but a slippery slope and more government than any of the founders ever invisioned... in fact... more government than any early 1900's sci fi writer ever dreamed of.
Tell me lazs, did you even read the entirety of my post, or did you stop at the first thing you disagreed with to rail about me promoting extreme-left socialist big-government nannying?
I'll repost the key point of my statement that you disregarded, just to make sure you see it this time.
The problem is when the protection of the general welfare and common good goes TOO far and the need for the rights or contributions of the individual are ignored.
It's too bad that any gov't., no matter what it's laws, or idealogy, or bill of rights, even our own, is in truth only as good as the people that implement it. If you think about it, Communism in Russia was killed by corruption of it's ideals, by the individuals that were in positions of power, more than any one thing. But corruption has also killed monarchy's, and yes, even democratically based representative or parliamentary gov'ts. Such as Nicauragua under Somoza, Or Cuba under Batista.
:aok
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So, in other words, No matter how noble a concept that you believe you live under, no matter what kind of words you use in any constitution or form of gov't. you live under...you are still at the mercy of the few who do hold any sort of power, Economically or politically.
It's too bad that any gov't., no matter what it's laws, or idealogy, or bill of rights, even our own, is in truth only as good as the people that implement it. If you think about it, Communism in Russia was killed by corruption of it's ideals, by the individuals that were in positions of power, more than any one thing. But corruption has also killed monarchy's, and yes, even democratically based representative or parliamentary gov'ts. Such as Nicauragua under Somoza, Or Cuba under Batista.
Pretty much.
*sigh*
It's exceedingly apparent the choices we're actually allowed to make are on the lines of 'giant sweetheart or crap sandwich'.
Unless of course, you haul yer bellybutton up to Laz's valley and declare open season on sweetheart bags and turd hero's.
;)
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But if we only follow the right. We are headed towards feudalism. - Dred
By "the right" do you mean "those who are very conservative"?
If so, could you expound on how following only conservatism, or conservative principles, would lead us to feudalism?
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All in all.... if in a mud wrestling match. I belive Sarah P. would take out Michele O. and even Nancy P.
Man that would be hot.
Never mind.
Mac
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http://65.74.2.234/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article4641030.ece%23cid=OTC-RSS%26attr=797093
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What's the link to? I got a password protected access denied popup.
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By "the right" do you mean "those who are very conservative"?
If so, could you expound on how following only conservatism, or conservative principles, would lead us to feudalism?
No, he means diehard republicans, not conservatives. We don't have very many conservatives on these boards, at least not very many vocal ones.
Fuedalism can be viewed as the ultimate form of 'haves vs have-nots' government. The US has been growing steadily more unequal since the 70s (in the socioeconomic sense, the PC crap is just there to distract the lower class from that). What is the solution to this problem? IS it a problem? I think it would be hijacking the thread to take it in this direction, so I'll leave it at that.
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As for Elian Gonzalez.... last thing I read about him was that he was quite content.....
just as I assumed, lol
you are a communist sympathizer.
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Tell me, Yeager. Who am I gonna vote for in the next election?
You just gotta be one of them liberal democrats. Otherwise you would have been ejaculating posts claiming the choice of Palin was the most brilliant political move since the beginning of time even though you never heard of her until now.
The only other possibility is you're objectively assessing the situation and .... and .... no, that's just too crazy.
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My brother sent it and it goes directly to Times Online .co.uk article on Palin with an interesting photo. I just checked it and went right to article. It is a U.K. site
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Tell me, Yeager. Who am I gonna vote for in the next election?
I'll bypass myelos ejaculatory dribblings and tell you that you are voting for the person who best represents your views and whom you think is the most qualified to lead.
At least if your worth the salt on your balls that's what you'll do,
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My brother sent it and it goes directly to Times Online .co.uk article on Palin with an interesting photo. I just checked it and went right to article. It is a U.K. site
Here's the link I think you were trying to post:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article4641030.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article4641030.ece)
I like this one, too:
http://timesonline.typepad.com/uselections/2008/08/sarah-palin-in.html (http://timesonline.typepad.com/uselections/2008/08/sarah-palin-in.html)
On capital punishment: "If the (Alaskan state) legislature passed a death penalty law, I would sign it. We have a right to know that someone who rapes and murders a child or kills an innocent person in a drive by shooting will never be able to do that again."
Talk doesn't get any straighter than that!
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Understand the context of the quote before you jackboot your response
... And on that note - you think the Bay of Pigs was a good idea?
The greatest thing that ever happened for JFK's career was when he got shot.
The bay of pigs WAS a good idea. But JFK specifically gave the order that doomed it to failure. Besides the renigging of US air support at the last moment, he cut the size of the Cuban Invasion Force by 50% a couple of weeks out. He pretty much told half of the cubans training to attack cuba, that they would not be outfitted with weapons, gear and vehicles. Those two things, doomed the attack to failure. Even though many American war planes upped with paint over the american flag to help those on the beach, which did include many CIA advisers, just left out to flap in the wind.
Then you take a look at the Cuban Missile Crisis. Our great savior JFK was literally minutes away from preemptively nuking Russia.
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Tell me lazs, did you even read the entirety of my post, or did you stop at the first thing you disagreed with to rail about me promoting extreme-left socialist big-government nannying?
Ahhh, You noticed that too eh? LOL
;)
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Pretty much.
*sigh*
It's exceedingly apparent the choices we're actually allowed to make are on the lines of 'giant sweetheart or crap sandwich'.
Unless of course, you haul yer bellybutton up to Laz's valley and declare open season on sweetheart bags and turd hero's.
;)
One problem, and I believe the worst one, Hangtime-Is that we, as a people, will not, cannot, won't...agree on who or whom the "sweetheartbag's" or "turd heroes" are. As a people, we are so divided along all kinds of lines. Economically, religously, culturally...And those that have large amounts of money or influence simply have to take advantage of that to stay in power. There are people, even on this very board, that idolize such those that have been successful in business and industry, no matter how or whom they took advantage of to get to where they are. Politicians...Nobody can agree on what actually makes this country great. Is it our willingness to go forth and attack terrorists' in their nations of origin? Or are we instead subjagating and killing people that happened to be citizens of a nation that had a terrorist cell working within it?
This, I'm afraid, is the case we find in the world today...The era where up is down, left is right, black is white, and wrong is right.
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This, I'm afraid, is the case we find in the world today...The era where up is down, left is right, black is white, and wrong is right.
,, and we've lost track of any kind of commonality... we can't even find 'core issues' we can agree upon as a nation. We've effectively 'balkainized' (sp) ourselves.
'divide & conquer'.. the corporations and their political smoke screens have been very effective. We've lost our identity as a nation, a 'people'.. we can't even agree on whats for dinner, let alone who's coming to it.
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,, and we've lost track of any kind of commonality... we can't even find 'core issues' we can agree upon as a nation. We've effectively 'balkainized' (sp) ourselves.
'divide & conquer'.. the corporations and their political smoke screens have been very effective. We've lost our identity as a nation, a 'people'.. we can't even agree on whats for dinner, let alone who's coming to it.
It makes me wonder if we are headed to that kind of world that was portrayed in the movie "Rollerball"-the original one, with James Caan.
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LOL.. gawd, I hope not.
Best we can hope for now is a republican in the WH to blunt the effect of having a democratic house and senate. Can't believe the best we can hope for is the turd hero. Hobson's Choice... damned if we do, damned sooner if we don't.
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the american planes with painted over markings were ordered not to shoot, only to do flybys to scare away the cuban AF, it did not work. Also american ships off shore were ordered to stay over the horizon.
i have no proof, but i would guess McNamara and his wiz kids had a hand in that based on what he did later in Nam.
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Or are we instead subjagating and killing people that happened to be citizens of a nation that had a terrorist cell working within it?
what nation is the US subjugating?
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what nation is the US subjugating?
This was put in the context of Point of View; One's man's actions' of rightousness can be another man's empirical aspirations.
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lazs,
The simple truth is you can't have total equality and total liberty at the same time. It doesn't work.
Defending individual rights mean squat if I use my individual rights trample on yours. The government must take responsibility to ensure that everyone has the opportunity equal to EXERCISE their individual rights. Pure individualism DOES NOT ALLOW this because of simple human nature. Human beings NATURALLY are going to look out for one person or group: Themselves and their own families and to hell with anyone else's rights. We're a greedy and selfish species and you see this happening the world over from the beginning of recorded history right down to today. To use your own example of the West, that's EXACTLY what was happening out there. Miners, the railroads, free range ranchers, cattle barons, sheep herders, and small and large farmers were all at war with each other because each wanted the land for THEIR purpose and dammed if they were going to share it with anyone else.
It IS the protection of general welfare and the common good to ensure that ALL citizens are allowed the equal opportunity to exercise those rights. That's where socialism comes in, because left to itself society would naturally degenerate into the chaos of "survival of the fittest" and you'll see men like JP Morgan and the Rockefellers again who have a stranglehold on the national economy.
The problem is when the protection of the general welfare and common good goes TOO far and the need for the rights or contributions of the individual are ignored.
Sax, I agree. Our natures bar us from being good citizens. Unless citizen be defined away to where it becomes meaningless.
About the "exercise" of rights, I'm not sure because I don't know how you mean it. Some folks are quite tied into "mine" when it comes to rights. Others look at rights as from the angle of what we owe rather than what we get.
We've got the "me, mine" down pat. The biggest wins: liar, voice, charisma, violence. That is without some bar to curb those things.
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My kind of woman.
(http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd336/makarov9/PalinM4_2.jpg)
(http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd336/makarov9/PalinM4.jpg)
Absolutely. She is definitely a breath of fresh air in regards to women in politics.
An NRA member, hunter, fisherman or fisherwoman as the case may be ;), does not go for corrupt politicians , a fur wearer and not a friggin sobbing in your Cheerios tree hugger.
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Of course Robert STRANGE McNamara had a hand in the goat-rope that became the Bay of Pigs.
http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/secdef_histories/bios/mcnamara.htm
The disastrous failure of the Bay of Pigs invasion, carried through by the Kennedy administration based on planning begun under Eisenhower, proved a great embarrassment. When McNamara left office in 1968, he told reporters that his principal regret was his recommendation to Kennedy to proceed with the Bay of Pigs operation, something that "could have been recognized as an error at the time."
Bobbie Strange is probably the moron that cut the air support.
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No, he means diehard republicans, not conservatives. We don't have very many conservatives on these boards, at least not very many vocal ones.
Fuedalism can be viewed as the ultimate form of 'haves vs have-nots' government. The US has been growing steadily more unequal since the 70s (in the socioeconomic sense, the PC crap is just there to distract the lower class from that). What is the solution to this problem? IS it a problem?
It can easily become one
Eventually the have nots revolt.
Often with ugly consequences
Just ask Marie Antoinette LOL
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i believe in sharing, i think John Edwards should give me one million of the $60 million dollars he got from suing insurance companies, it's only fair.
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i believe in sharing, i think John Edwards should give me one million of the $60 million dollars he got from suing insurance companies, it's only fair.
But...give it to what?
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No, he means diehard republicans, not conservatives. We don't have very many conservatives on these boards, at least not very many vocal ones.
Fuedalism can be viewed as the ultimate form of 'haves vs have-nots' government. The US has been growing steadily more unequal since the 70s (in the socioeconomic sense, the PC crap is just there to distract the lower class from that). What is the solution to this problem? IS it a problem?
It can easily become one
Eventually the have nots revolt.
Often with ugly consequences
Just ask Marie Antoinette LOL
If our population is tending towards a class society, I'm sure of one thing: GOVERNMENT cannot fix it! (remember Gov't? - the ones who openly discriminate based only on the color of people's skin?)
The pure factual truth is, there are many countries in the modern world today that are class societies divided among the haves and have-nots, the super-rich and the desperately poor. America is not one of them.
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Speaking of Mrs. Palin (I like old fashioned handles) from a Catholic blog who is quite happy. He found a description from another blog he thought great: it's like NASCAR meets Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
http://cacciaguida.blogspot.com/2008_08_01_archive.html#3951712743235914618
Folks know I'm against drugs. There's a great line than some of our Mary Janers may dig.
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All in all.... if in a mud wrestling match. I belive Sarah P. would take out Michele O. and even Nancy P.
Man that would be hot.
Never mind.
Mac
I bet Nancy P. was a hottie in her day :aok
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The greatest thing that ever happened for JFK's career was when he got shot.
Probably not. Now for his legacy, you may have a point.
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Lincoln had no executive experience when he was elected, and almost no legislative experience on top of that. Of those I listed, Eisenhower had plenty of executive experience in the military, but no political experience of which to speak.
I think that Eisenhower holding together the allied generals, FDR and Churchill into a cohesive unit was probably one of the greatest shows of political aptitude in the history of mankind.
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what do you mean, in her day? I'd tussle with her right now. I'd be drilling alright. :aok
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(http://www.montypython.art.pl/obrazki/palin2.jpg)
Nobody cares that the VP nominee's husband may be related to sombody from the silly party?
Well, there's the first result and the Silly Party has held Leicester. What do you make of that, Norman?
Norman: Well, this is largely as I predicted, except that the Silly Party won. I think this is largely due to the number of votes cast. Gerald?
Gerald: Well there's a swing here to the Silly Party...but how big a swing I'm not going to tell you.
George: Well, if I may...I think the interesting thing here is the big swing to the Silly Party and of course the very large swing back to the Sensible Party...and a tendency to wobble up and down in the middle because the screw's loose.
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The funny thing is...If Palin has so much appeal, why didn't they run her for the Presidency rather than VP...?
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I would have taken it. Unfortunately for the Republicans, she was one of the only conservatives in the race.
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,, and we've lost track of any kind of commonality... we can't even find 'core issues' we can agree upon as a nation. We've effectively 'balkainized' (sp) ourselves.
'divide & conquer'.. the corporations and their political smoke screens have been very effective. We've lost our identity as a nation, a 'people'.. we can't even agree on whats for dinner, let alone who's coming to it.
I'll tell you a secret. Not many people know it.
WE'VE NEVER BEEN UNITED.
USA and the colonies that preceeded it has always been divided, from the very first moment that man's foot touched our shores. That especially includes the "One with nature" indians.
There hasn't ever been a moment throughout all of our history where we've come together as one nation. Ever. EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER.
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The funny thing is...If Palin has so much appeal, why didn't they run her for the Presidency rather than VP...?
Wait 4 years.
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:aok
-BigBOBCH
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I'll tell you a secret. Not many people know it.
WE'VE NEVER BEEN UNITED.
USA and the colonies that preceeded it has always been divided, from the very first moment that man's foot touched our shores. That especially includes the "One with nature" indians.
There hasn't ever been a moment throughout all of our history where we've come together as one nation. Ever. EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER.
(http://www.moonbattery.com/9-11.jpg)
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Amen :salute
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I'll add to that Hang and say we came together as a nation, one people, on December 7th, 1941.
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what do you mean, in her day? I'd tussle with her right now. I'd be drilling alright. :aok
Lol me too :rofl
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My brother sent it and it goes directly to Times Online .co.uk article on Palin with an interesting photo. I just checked it and went right to article. It is a U.K. site
I'm getting the exact same error Texasmom is getting. I'm using Firefox and it is asking for a username/password.
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I'm getting the exact same error Texasmom is getting. I'm using Firefox and it is asking for a username/password.
Here's the link I think you were trying to post:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article4641030.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article4641030.ece)
I like this one, too:
http://timesonline.typepad.com/uselections/2008/08/sarah-palin-in.html (http://timesonline.typepad.com/uselections/2008/08/sarah-palin-in.html)
Talk doesn't get any straighter than that!
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Oh, I'm not passing judgment on her. I think almost everyone would try to get him fired. If he did what they SAY he did, I'm not sure why he wasn't fired, if they had proof of it.
The trooper was suspended for 5 days. :rolleyes:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/30/AR2008083002366.html
On March 1, 2006, Grimes sustained the allegations, saying, "The record clearly indicates a serious and concentrated pattern of unacceptable and at times, illegal activity occurring over a lengthy period, which establishes a course of conduct totally at odds with the ethics of our profession." Wooten was suspended for five days.
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I should have read the rest of page 6 Donzo before I made that post. :D
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I'll add to that Hang and say we came together as a nation, one people, on December 7th, 1941.
There's been other moments, too. But, with that observation crops up an oddity.. a quirk we have I guess. Any number of crimes can be committed against the citizens of this nation abroad.. children can be kidnapped, raped, abused, sold into slavery... our citizens abroad snatched off the streets, decapitated on video. Our soldiers, fallen in combat, dragged thru the streets... even our warships, like the USS Liberty attacked with many lives lost.. we'll absorb that. It seems that any number of atrocities may be committed against our people, the symbols of our nation when abroad..
But if someone... any foreign entity; should have the temerity to attack our Nations citizens on this sovereign soil, there's gonna be hell to pay.
Use caution with this link... language. Funny.. but considering the source, telling.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVqFTNzNV04 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVqFTNzNV04)
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<<During the next 24 hours, Castro had 20,000 troops advancing on the beach and the Cuban Air Force continued to control the skies. As the situation grew increasingly grim, President Kennedy authorized an “air-umbrella” at dawn on April 19, which called for six unmarked American fighter planes to help defend the Brigade's B-26 aircraft flying from Nicaragua. But the B-26s arrived an hour late (most likely due to time zone confusion) and were shot down by the Cubans. The invasion was crushed later that day. Some exiles escaped to the sea, while the rest were killed or rounded up and imprisoned by Castro’s forces. Almost 1200 Brigade members had surrendered and more than 100 had been killed.>>
You read that or just jump for joy when you saw the first line?
Like I said - back off from the coffee
And maybe go back and read the first post....carefully and slowly...and understand the context... then post... without the coffee...or coke or whatever
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(http://www.moonbattery.com/9-11.jpg)
There's people who think that the CIA actually hit the WTC buildings with a cruise missile fired from a F-117.
Hell, there's people on this board who to this day, profess that the building didn't come down from the airliners, but from controlled demolition.
My example would have been Dec. 7th, 1941; But there are people convinced that FDR let the attack happen so that he had an excuse to go to war with Japan...There's always someone dissenting, somewhere.
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There's been other moments, too. But, with that observation crops up an oddity.. a quirk we have I guess. Any number of crimes can be committed against the citizens of this nation abroad.. children can be kidnapped, raped, abused, sold into slavery... our citizens abroad snatched off the streets, decapitated on video. Our soldiers, fallen in combat, dragged thru the streets... even our warships, like the USS Liberty attacked with many lives lost.. we'll absorb that. It seems that any number of atrocities may be committed against our people, the symbols of our nation when abroad..
But if someone... any foreign entity; should have the temerity to attack our Nations citizens on this sovereign soil, there's gonna be hell to pay.
Kinda funny how that works isn't it?
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That link was pretty funny too, a lot to truth to it, but still funny.
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(http://www.eliboat.com/wp-content/lunar_landing.jpg)
Oh wait, people think THAT was staged, too.
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There's people who think that the CIA actually hit the WTC buildings with a cruise missile fired from a F-117.
Hell, there's people on this board who to this day, profess that the building didn't come down from the airliners, but from controlled demolition.
My example would have been Dec. 7th, 1941; But there are people convinced that FDR let the attack happen so that he had an excuse to go to war with Japan...There's always someone dissenting, somewhere.
You beat me to it. There's a great scene in the movie "Best Days of Our Lives" where a guy starts telling a disabled sailor what a shame it was he had to sacrifice his hands to Roosevelt for no good reason.
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Don't worry I'm sure McCain can whip her into shape in no time... :lol
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3137/2811837282_039f668192.jpg?v=0)
Btw it's being reported she fired the chief of police while she was mayor of Wasilla (Population 9000), because he didn't support her running for governor. If true she's got quite the history with abuse of power, she should fit in well with the current crop of Republicans. I think I'm now quite sure that her year & a half as Governor along with her mayor ship of Wasilla has adequately prepared her for the oval office if McCain happens to have a heart attack.
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/129/319098225_e3fb99541f.jpg?v=0)
:rofl I wonder if the city hall doubles as the town laundromat during the off hours.
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shoot the poor girl down crokkey, its not as if you right to sell porn is in danger :aok
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Btw it's being reported she fired the chief of police while she was mayor of Wasilla (Population 9000), because he didn't support her running for governor.
Have a link for that besides some left wing blog?
The only information I could find on this story came from a blog:
http://hatthief.blogspot.com/2008/08/vetting-sarah-palin-irl-stambaugh-walt.html
Apparently a Judge ruled Palin had the authority to terminate the Wasilla police chief for any or no reason at all based on Alaska state law.
his ruling was that Alaska state law allows mayors to fire the chief of police for whatever reason he or she wanted.
But Singleton said that under state law, police chiefs serve at the behest of the mayor unless otherwise specified by city ordinance. Stein, the former mayor, had worked out an agreement with Stambaugh forbidding termination without cause, but the city council never voted on it, Singleton ruled.
Apparently this is yet another NON issue brought to light by our illustrious Crock Pot. ;)
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Btw it's being reported she fired the chief of police while she was mayor of Wasilla (Population 9000), because he didn't support her running for governor.
Actually, I heard it that she caught the chief tuggin the 'ol totem in the one-hole crapper they got in that shack they call a town hall.
There's unsubstantiated rumors corckett's porn may have been involved.
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Actually, I heard it that she caught the chief tuggin the 'ol totem in the one-hole crapper they got in that shack they call a town hall.
There's unsubstantiated rumors corckett's porn may have been involved.
:lol
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Apparently a Judge ruled Palin had the authority to terminate the Wasilla police chief for any or no reason at all based on Alaska state law.
Having authority to fire someone doesn't mean she didn't misuse her power while doing it, it just means she was cleared on the firing. Remember OJ according to our criminal court system was found not guilty, yet he was guilty in a civil court. The important thing is this is now two cases where the person being fired has reported it was because of personal disagreements with her.
If it was just one case then maybe you could blow it off, however two totally separate cases start to show a trend. However I'm quite sure you guys will blow it off as well, as long as it's your "appointed one" nothing can be wrong.. :lol
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Having authority to fire someone doesn't mean she didn't misuse her power while doing it, it just means she was cleared on the firing. Remember OJ according to our criminal court system was found not guilty, yet he was guilty in a civil court. The important thing is this is now two cases where the person being fired has reported it was because of personal disagreements with her.
If it was just one case then maybe you could blow it off, however two totally separate cases start to show a trend. However I'm quite sure you guys will blow it off as well. As long as it's your "appointed one" nothing can be wrong.. :lol
What.. a citizen, elected to office to challenge entrenched authority and abuses of power fires a town clown cop?
Cripes, yer a liberal; you oughta love this stuff!
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Having authority to fire someone doesn't mean she didn't misuse her power while doing it,
She had the authority (as does EVERY mayor in Alaska) to fire someone for picking their nose improperly and then ingesting it if she so chose. She (and EVERY other mayor in the state of Alaska) can fire city employees for whatever reason they like, or no reason at all. Having the authority to do so negates any possible abuse of power issue.
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What.. a citizen, elected to office to challenge entrenched authority and abuses of power fires a town clown cop?
Cripes, yer a liberal; you oughta love this stuff!
He would if she were a democrat. ;)
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She had the authority (as does EVERY mayor in Alaska) to fire someone for picking their nose improperly and then ingesting it if she so chose. She (and EVERY other mayor in the state of Alaska) can fire city employees for whatever reason they like, or no reason at all. Having the authority to do so negates any possible abuse of power issue.
I'll say it again.. this time read slooowly. Having authority to do something and using it responsibly, is not the same as having the authority and abusing it. Remember the second case is still under investigation, so she has yet to be cleared on it.
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shoot the poor girl down crokkey, its not as if you right to sell porn is in danger :aok
So crockett,
What do you have that invovles 3 girls, more than 20 guys a midget on a bike and 3lb of canned Tuna?
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I'll say it again.. this time read slooowly. Having authority to do something and using it responsibly, is not the same as having the authority and abusing it. Remember the second case is still under investigation, so she has yet to be cleared on it.
The 'second case'. LOL... gawd I'm lovin watching the show. We're gonna find out next that the state trooper ex-brother in law knocked up palin's daughter and her dad was in the witness protection program.
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The only definitions of the word abuse that applies to this situation:
1. To use wrongly or improperly; misuse:
1. Improper use or handling; misuse: abuse of authority; drug abuse.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/abuse
In this case, she had the authority to fire anyone, at any time, for any (or no) reason at all. That is not an improper use of her power. She was well within her stated power as Mayor to fire him for whatever reason she chose. No different than Bush or Clinton firing federal prosecutors, they can do so at any time and for whatever reason they chose.
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Check your PM's Hang. :D
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So crockett,
What do you have that invovles 3 girls, more than 20 guys a midget on a bike and 3lb of canned Tuna?
Oh I'm big on the midget transsexuals.. j/k
I will say though, if her and McCain get elected it will be good for biz. There is a unknown model in the industry that is a splitting image of this women. I think they were going to name her Sarah Ballin and are planning to start filming soon. :lol
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I gotta get a copy of that!
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The trooper was suspended for 5 days. :rolleyes:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/30/AR2008083002366.html
Like I said. If he did what they SAY he did, I'm not sure why he wasn't fired. I can probably say it in Spanish too, but if something else is your native tongue let me know and I'll go use the Google translator.
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I gotta get a copy of that!
Well just so you don't think I'm full of it.. ;)
(http://www.wargamerx.com/temp/20.jpg)
Granted she's younger but isn't that just the splitting image or at least close enough for hand grenades..
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1398/542389855_811a187e7b.jpg)
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Is she new to the Biz? I'm only asking because I think I saw someone who looked just like that in one of the many many movies in our collection.
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Is she new to the Biz? I'm only asking because I think I saw someone who looked just like that in one of the many many movies in our collection.
Not new just not a big name.
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Righto... I'll post an SS to be sure it's the same one later :D
Definitely has talent from what we've seen ;)
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(http://thismight.be/offensive/uploads/2008/08/29/image/242482_I%27ve%20seen%20these%20guys%20before.jpg)
Cylons!
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Sounds like there wasn't enough evidence to catch him for what he's reported to have said, only for aggressive speech or action or whatever the charge is.
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"The little-known vice presidential candidate faces accusations of firing public safety commissioner Walt Monegan in what amounts to a messy Palin family drama dating to her pre-gubernatorial days. Monegan had refused to fire a state trooper who had gone through a messy divorce from Palin's sister.
The accuser is blogger and rental car executive Andrew Halcro, a Republican-turned-Independent who lost to Palin in the 2006 governor's race.
The accused is Palin, the rising Republican star with a clean-hands reputation who has the most to lose.
The man in the middle is former commissioner, Monegan, who says Palin never told him to fire the trooper, but he felt pressure to do so from members of her administration.
Then there's trooper Mike Wooten, who used a Taser on his stepson, Palin's nephew Payton. Wooten has been reprimanded for violating nearly a dozen laws and departmental policies since December 2001."
http://www.nj.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/base/politics-17/1220258348127630.xml&storylist=topstories
Didnt need to read any farther then that.
This second incident is a non issue. Even if Palin didnt pressure Monegan to fire him.
Monegan should have not only fired him. But pressed charges.
Entire story is a non issue for me for this election
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One small time recidivist crooked cop gets half the penalty he ought to have got, all within the allowed range of her gubernatorial powers, and that's supposed to outweigh all the corruption busting she's done? Is that supposed to be some power mongering red flag? Does someone have something in their eyes?
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I'm staying out of the debate on her credentials and what she's done in the past or may do in the future--I don't know much about her as an individual or a politician--but there seems to be a gross misunderstanding on the nature of legal authority. One can still abuse or misuse power, or wield it unethically and inappropriately and still remain within the limits of the law. The law just says you CAN do something. Morality and ethics determine if doing it is RIGHT.
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saxman screamed in red...
"The problem is when the protection of the general welfare and common good goes TOO far and the need for the rights or contributions of the individual are ignored."
It means no more in huge red letters than it meant in tiny little font.. it is an osamabama liberal socialist politician soundbite.
It is meaningless.. It says nothing.. what is "too far" for you is much different than what is too far for me or anyone else. What are the "rights or contributions of the individuals" to you? who frigging knows? you seem to think any tax.. any fee and any law are fine.
You and dred both do the same thing.. make speeches that sound good but are meaningless.
We don't need taxes to promote the general welfare except to fund the court and it's enforcement and to protect the borders.
To me.. what you and dred and your pretend centrist ideas have spawned is the reality of today....
Lets say that there is a donut shop and a lowes home supply place in the same strip mall... now, say there are three cop cars at the donut shop parked and... ah.. discussing important police stuff.. 50 yards away in plain sight is 30 illegals all milling around and a pickup stops and negotiations begin...
Now.. the cops ignore this... but say..at the same time I ride by on my motorcycle and am not wearing a helmet... or drive by in a roadster with no seatbelt on...
What do you think is going to happen? obviously.. since I am endangering the entire free world and "the common good" at least on of the police cars will rip on out of the lot with lights blazing and at least one other for "backup" since it is obvious that anyone such as myself who is willing to endanger the free world and urinates on "the common good" is dangerous and.. well.. a source of income and will certainly help with that old quota thing...
Now you tell me what is wrong with that picture.
lazs
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Didnt need to read any farther then that.
This second incident is a non issue. Even if Palin didnt pressure Monegan to fire him.
Monegan should have not only fired him. But pressed charges.
Entire story is a non issue for me for this election
At this point it's a he said she said.. Yet you want to knock me for bringing up the info because it doesn't fit what you want to hear. Then you turn around and side with one side because it's what you want to hear.
If it was such and open and shut case, then why is it currently still under investigation?
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but back to Palin...
It is obvious that old Mccain did it again.. sat back and waited and then sprung.. look at this thread... look at the osamabinbiden threads... this one is a record breaker.. the binbiden one is a yawner.
Her appointment was a masterstroke.. a woman who is conservative to prove that republicans and conservatives and libertarians are honest about gender and race.. we will vote for a woman or a minority but...
not based on the color of their skin or gender.. we will base it on their politics and ideas...
To not vote for some shrill, socialist lesbo or the most liberal senator ever.. does not make you a bigot or a misogenist.
Plus... Who do you want to see hugging and french kissing in the news for the next few months.. Mccain and Palin or the osamabinbiden fruitcakes?
Plus.. when the obligatory pics in october of the osamabinbiden duo come out with them holding the wrong end of a shotgun and wearing safari vests with the tags still on em....
Palin will have one of a dead moose to show and Mccain will have one of him and the staff of the NRA.
NRA gives the osamabinbiden duo a solid "F" rating...
lazs
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saxman screamed in red...
"The problem is when the protection of the general welfare and common good goes TOO far and the need for the rights or contributions of the individual are ignored."
It means no more in huge red letters than it meant in tiny little font.. it is an osamabama liberal socialist politician soundbite.
It is meaningless.. It says nothing.. what is "too far" for you is much different than what is too far for me or anyone else. What are the "rights or contributions of the individuals" to you? who frigging knows? you seem to think any tax.. any fee and any law are fine.
You and dred both do the same thing.. make speeches that sound good but are meaningless.
We don't need taxes to promote the general welfare except to fund the court and it's enforcement and to protect the borders.
To me.. what you and dred and your pretend centrist ideas have spawned is the reality of today....
Lets say that there is a donut shop and a lowes home supply place in the same strip mall... now, say there are three cop cars at the donut shop parked and... ah.. discussing important police stuff.. 50 yards away in plain sight is 30 illegals all milling around and a pickup stops and negotiations begin...
Now.. the cops ignore this... but say..at the same time I ride by on my motorcycle and am not wearing a helmet... or drive by in a roadster with no seatbelt on...
What do you think is going to happen? obviously.. since I am endangering the entire free world and "the common good" at least on of the police cars will rip on out of the lot with lights blazing and at least one other for "backup" since it is obvious that anyone such as myself who is willing to endanger the free world and urinates on "the common good" is dangerous and.. well.. a source of income and will certainly help with that old quota thing...
Now you tell me what is wrong with that picture.
lazs
Laz's definition of a "Liberal Weenie" = anyone that he doesnt agree with.
Laz. Your anything but an "individualist" your a right winger. Pure and simple. the only one that doesnt see it..is you.
Which is why anyone who you do not agree with seems like a "libral" to you.
You completely ignore what people say and only pick out what you want and then and I dare say completely fabricate positions for people they dont even take completely forgetting what they may have said over and over again.
In my case specifically. You repeatedly claim I have positions on things I have repeatedly said over the years I do not.
Big differences between your speeches and mine. Is at least my speeches sound good.
But at least I do not put words into your mouth that you have not said.
I am Pro gun ownership.
anti seat belt and helmet law. Or ANY law designed to protect us from ourselves
Anti illegal immigrant (I dont see how my opinion of shooting illegals can be viewed as be pro illegals. but you go right ahead and keep putting your spin on it)
I never said anything about raising taxes to promote the general welfare either. Yet another item you pulled out of your arse.
The thing that really cracks me up.Is at 2:00 im going to a picnic at someones house whose wife is a card carrying bonifide libral. And Im going to get into the same exact kind of arguments Im having here only from the other side. Just like I always do.
And Im going to be labeled by her a right winger. Just like she always does.
Laz the more you talk about me. The more I realize you dont have a clue about me.
Actually at this point the way you keep spinning peoples words around Im not so sure you have a clue at all anymore
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dred.. you are correct.. your speeches are flowery.. I am correct tho in that they are like a politicians.. sound good but are meaningless.
This is all getting off the Palin issue so I will say.. I will (as usual) just refute your liberal posts in other threads.. or.. you can start a new one and I will be glad to debate you.
I am sorry that you think I don't have a clue and am a right winger... I don't know a lot of right wingers who want to legalize drugs and end the "war on drugs" for instance.
Oh.. go ahead and tell the liberal you will be arguing with (can't imagine what she is like) that I consider you a socialist.. at least I can do that for you.
lazs
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In my opinion, the angst of the democratic left over the selection of Palin stems from elitist, sanctimonious snobbery: "How dare they select a woman! We're the only ones who are supposed to do that! They're just doing it to embarass Obama and attract Hillary's angry supporters! Typical Republicans....they picked the wrong kind of woman as well!"
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and Hangtime.. hard to keep track of this thread the way it moves but...
I am going to do pretty much as you say.. I am going to move out a ways on some land with my own well and septic and maybe power. It is a cowards way out but.. I ain't getting any younger.
My thinking is that the socialists will be too busy picking over the bones of the metrosexual blue voters to get around to me out in the sticks for 20 years or so if I don't make too much noise..
By then I will be dead or won't care... I will probly be out of ammo and not care that my hot rods are banned.
course.. if we get a lot more politicians in like Palin... things may swing to the good before I die.. never can tell... leave it to you guys to battle the nanny state and it's army of blue voting metrosexuals.
lazs
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What's wrong with this picture is that once again you're leveling your own vision of reality on me and what I believe, and instead proving you don't have a CLUE what's going on in my head, politically or otherwise.
I believe and agree that the Second Amendment protects the rights of the individual to keep and bear arms, but that letting John Q. Public run around with full-automatics or never knowing if some seemingly well-adjusted individual could be packing until he has a REALLY bad day and just snaps is a BAD and frightening thing.
I'm sick and tired of parents groups controlling what's in the media because it may be offensive to .5% of the population. When a movie like Blazing Saddles couldn't be made in today's climate because minority groups have such thin skin now something is SERIOUSLY wrong. I have the right to call someone black, or Chinese, or crippled without it being meant as an insult or degrading. I have the right to USE insulting terms in a tongue-in-cheek manner that's just in fun or satire without it being taken seriously and that the PC Police should back the hell off.
I believe that immigrants to this country should learn to understand and exist in American culture and know English, but that they have EVERY right to not be forced--by law or fear of whack-job supremacists--to abandon their own. A Muslim woman in America has as much right to wear a burqa in public as I do to dress in a way appropriate to MY culture.
It is meaningless.. It says nothing.. what is "too far" for you is much different than what is too far for me or anyone else.
It says EVERYTHING. And if you STILL can't see that now, then you're so far wrapped up in your own little world and your own beliefs that you're blind and deaf to what anyone else is saying and have no place attacking or criticizing me for mine in the FIRST place.
What are the "rights or contributions of the individuals" to you?
Individual thought. Individual expression. That I have the right to write or paint the most disgustingly offensive work of literature or art imaginable without fear of legal reprisal. That I have the right to restrain MYSELF of my OWN ethical volition. That I have the right to contribute MY voice, however controversial it is, to the public discourse without fear of ridicule or attack, or government retribution. That I can be what I want and WHO I want, WITH THE RESPONSIBILITY THAT GOES WITH IT.
And I live my life with the understanding that some things I CAN'T do because the government must look out for the public safety and guarantee that everyone has the same chance that I do. I can't run around firing guns into the air. I can't drive 50 in a 25. I have to acknowledge and respect the fact that while I have the right to be what I want to be and to become the BEST that I can be my neighbor does too, and I can't exclude him because I'm white and he's black, I'm a man or she's a woman, I was born here, or he's an immigrant. The government PROTECTS that equal opportunity and I have to accept that.
I live my life with the understanding that I can't deny you YOUR right to your narrow world-view, but the MOMENT you target me, claim you KNOW me, think you can LABEL me, I will NOT stand by quietly.
So go back to your mountain stronghold and keep thinking you have reality all neatly wrapped up with its big pretty ribbon on top, and that the whole world revolves according to your perception of it.
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Looks like the rumors were half true about the daughter being pregnant. The new born baby appears to really be Sarah's Palins but it also appears the 17 y.o daughter is knocked up. So that explains the eRumors and pictures that started popping up yesterday.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26496189/
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I believe and agree that the Second Amendment protects the rights of the individual to keep and bear arms, but that letting John Q. Public run around with full-automatics or never knowing if some seemingly well-adjusted individual could be packing until he has a REALLY bad day and just snaps is a BAD and frightening thing.
Please stop ignoring the blatant facts. You do not support the Second Amendment. The average citizen isn't armed with full-auto weapons. In most cases they could have them if they wanted them, but just can't afford them.
The "seemingly well-adjusted individual" who carries concealed has not gone berserk and opened fire. The overwhelming majority of the states allow concealed carry now by virtue of "shall-issue" laws, and yet there has been an almost complete absence of attacks or shootings by licensed carriers in violation of the laws. But please, don't do any research, do not allow the facts and reality cloud your opinions or perceptions. There have been many many cases of concealed carry individuals defending life and limb with their weapons, many cases involving the presence of a person defending themselves without having to fire a shot. You guess maybe they weren't having a bad enough day?
You are more likely to be struck by lightning than shot at by a licensed concealed carrying individual, but again, don't let that interfere with any irrational fear you may have.
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There is nothing in the text of the Second Amendment that even SUGGESTS that one MUST support Conceal and Carry as well.
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(http://www.moonbattery.com/9-11.jpg)
Isn't it funny how time makes a lot of people forget how it was?
We weren't united after 9/11. Even then people believed the government was behind it.
We weren't united after 12/7. Even then people believed the government was behind it / caused it.
There has not been one single moment throughout all of the US's history that we have been united. And it is downright childish to think otherwise.
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There is nothing in the text of the Second Amendment that even SUGGESTS that one MUST support Conceal and Carry as well.
I don't care if you support it, but I do find it naive to try and insinuate that it would be typical for licensed carriers to pull out a gun and start shooting when they are having a bad day. Hasn't happened, doesn't happen, typically only suggested by anti-gun lobbiest who use scare tactics contrary to reality to create fear.
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Isn't it funny how time makes a lot of people forget how it was?
We weren't united after 9/11. Even then people believed the government was behind it.
We weren't united after 12/7. Even then people believed the government was behind it / caused it.
There has not been one single moment throughout all of the US's history that we have been united. And it is downright childish to think otherwise.
I think you forget Pearl Harbor. Isn't it funny how time makes a lot of people forget how it was?
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I think you forget Pearl Harbor. Isn't it funny how time makes a lot of people forget how it was?
You are aware that Pearl Harbor was attacked December 7th, right? And december 7th, when written in numbers and slashes, is 12/7.
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What's wrong with this picture is that once again you're leveling your own vision of reality on me and what I believe, and instead proving you don't have a CLUE what's going on in my head, politically or otherwise.
I believe and agree that the Second Amendment protects the rights of the individual to keep and bear arms, but that letting John Q. Public run around with full-automatics or never knowing if some seemingly well-adjusted individual could be packing until he has a REALLY bad day and just snaps is a BAD and frightening thing.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/Fotografiya-pulemyota640x500.jpg)
you want world peace? take the guns away from the polititions!
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You are aware that Pearl Harbor was attacked December 7th, right? And december 7th, when written in numbers and slashes, is 12/7.
:rofl Beat me to it.
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yep sandie.. again.. Like I told dred.. I will be glad to debate any of your views (as I have in the past) in another thread but.. your idea of gun control is just more socialism.. you are saying that POTENTIAL is enough for you to ban "for the common good".
The truth of course is much different than your hand wringing.. The dentist down the street from me ordered a semi auto 20 mm cannon when I was a kid.. you could get em for about $100 thousands were sold.. no problems.
really... I have no problem with anyone expressing themselves with whatever they think their culture is.. But.. if a bank says no coming in the bank wearing a mask of any sort.. that is the banks business for instance.. it is not a burka..it is a mask in that case. If a business wants to let people smoke.. it is their choice.. the only obligation they have is to simply put out a notice saying that people smoke so... anyone so weak that they shoulda died at birth anyway should not enter.
I don't owe you an education or health care.
lazs
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Isn't it funny how time makes a lot of people forget how it was?
We weren't united after 9/11. Even then people believed the government was behind it.
We weren't united after 12/7. Even then people believed the government was behind it / caused it.
There has not been one single moment throughout all of the US's history that we have been united. And it is downright childish to think otherwise.
Ok.. in your world there would be two times...
'83 when Conners lost the Cup to the Aussies
'87 when Conners took it back in 4 straight.
neener, neener, neener.
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crock-it.. this seems soooooo phony of you.. if some shrill liberal left winger lesbo had gotten pregnant out of wedlock or... better yet.. decided to kill the brat.. you would be wetting yourself over her courage.
lazs
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Ok.. in your world there would be two times...
'83 when Conners lost the Cup to the Aussies
'87 when Conners took it back in 4 straight.
neener, neener, neener.
He cheated it back.
Depending on my mood (whether or not I really want the cup back at the time) I'd give you this point.
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Depending on my mood (whether or not I really want the cup back at the time) I'd give you this point.
LOL.. this concludes today's lesson on perspective.
:aok
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crock-it.. this seems soooooo phony of you.. if some shrill liberal left winger lesbo had gotten pregnant out of wedlock or... better yet.. decided to kill the brat.. you would be wetting yourself over her courage.
lazs
Lard you know as well as I do that if Chelsy Clinton had gotten pregnant unmarried and under 18 the Republicans would have been screaming bloody murder. They would have been yelling and screaming about family values and the whole nine yards. This whole thing just shows how much of hypocrites people like Palin are. They preach their family values and all that stuff claiming their way is better yet they end up in the same shoes and everyone else.
I am however amazed you managed to make a post with out claiming something was socialist. However you did get the liberal whine in so I guess it's always one or the other.. :lol
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Lard you know as well as I do that if Chelsy Clinton had gotten pregnant unmarried and under 18 the Republicans would have been screaming bloody murder. They would have been yelling and screaming about family values and the whole nine yards. This whole thing just show how big of hypocrite people like Palin are. They preach their family values and all that stuff claiming their way is better yet they end up in the same shoes and everyone else.
I am however amazed you managed to make a post with out claiming something was socialist. However you did get the liberal whine in so I guess it's always one or the other.. :lol
If Chelsy had gotten pregnant the public would never have known.
Kids make mistakes, every last one of them. Some mistakes are more costly than others. Character is developed when you deal with your mistakes.
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LOL.. this concludes today's lesson on perspective.
:aok
More so than you realize. If I want America to win back the cup, then I believe that we can work together.
But our Cup record since Dennis Connor shows that it's not possible.
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Like I said. If he did what they SAY he did, I'm not sure why he wasn't fired. I can probably say it in Spanish too, but if something else is your native tongue let me know and I'll go use the Google translator.
I think you misunderstood my post Urchin. I agree, he should have been fired and not merely suspended for 5 days. I was just pointing out that the only consequences he faced was the 5 day suspension. :)
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Lard you know as well as I do that if Chelsy Clinton had gotten pregnant unmarried and under 18 the Republicans would have been screaming bloody murder.
AKIron is right, we would have never known about it. And frankly, it is non of our business. To gloat over someone elses mistake is pretty sad though.
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At this point it's a he said she said.. Yet you want to knock me for bringing up the info because it doesn't fit what you want to hear. Then you turn around and side with one side because it's what you want to hear.
If it was such and open and shut case, then why is it currently still under investigation?
You forgot to quote this part:
Then there's trooper Mike Wooten, who used a Taser on his stepson, Palin's nephew Payton. Wooten has been reprimanded for violating nearly a dozen laws and departmental policies since December 2001."
It's pretty obvious that he wasn't reprimanded and suspended for 5 days over a he said/she said issue.
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There is nothing in the text of the Second Amendment that even SUGGESTS that one MUST support Conceal and Carry as well.
There's absolutely nothing in the 2nd regarding Open or Concealed carry at all.
What is says is: "...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Doesn't say "keep and bear arms openly" or "keep and bear arms concealed". Says "keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed".
I think such an individualist as yourself, a man that strongly supports individual liberty would understand that.
YMMWP.
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You read that or just jump for joy when you saw the first line?
Your first post on the Bay of Pigs had this:
But, the bay of pigs was a cluster*** from the beginning..and the promise of military involvement ...where do you find that fact?..or is it a story you were told and you believe?...
It's clear you were just talking out your bellybutton or that you really don't have any knowledge of the history of the operation. Possibly both, I guess.
Your idea that Yeager got his history from "a story you were told and you believe?..." is easily refuted.
You were given quotes from the JFK library showing that Kennedy cancelled a promised airstrike. That is undeniably a promise of military involvement that was broken.
You were given a link to a Time article written shortly after Bay of Pigs that points out that the Bay of Pigs invaders were actually promised three days of airstrikes which Kennedy cut to two and then cancelled the second one. So, that's an even larger promise of military involvement which was not kept.
You should just cut your losses and apologize to Yeager.
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If Chelsy had gotten pregnant the public would never have known.
Never have known, or wouldn't have believed it? That family isn't known for making truthful public statements about extra-marital sex...
"My daughter... did not have sexual relations... with *that* man (points at painting of Thomas Jefferson). *She* (points at 65 year old female reporter) is not pregnant." See how that works? It even works under oath apparently.
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Breaking News
Private lawyer hired to represent Palin in Monegan inquiry
Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin -- Republican John McCain's pick for vice president -- now has a private lawyer representing her office in the investigation into the firing of her public safety commissioner.
http://www.adn.com/palin/story/512842.html
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Breaking News
Private lawyer hired to represent Palin in Monegan inquiry
Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin -- Republican John McCain's pick for vice president -- now has a private lawyer representing her office in the investigation into the firing of her public safety commissioner.
http://www.adn.com/palin/story/512842.html
At this point, I think that was probably prudent.
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At this point, I think that was probably prudent.
Considering that the democrats will do their damndest to discredit her, yes, legal representation is a good idea. They will likely try to make it equal to Bill Clinton's sexual harrassment and lying under oath case.
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Considering that the democrats will do their damndest to discredit her, yes, legal representation is a good idea. They will likely try to make it equal to Bill Clinton's sexual harrassment and lying under oath case.
Heck if Crockett is any indication in the other thread it is worse than Clinton's sexual harrassment and lying under oath.
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The demodorks and libbies would do well to remember Obama was born to an unmarried 18 year old. Palins daughter already has plans to be married. I like her way better.
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The demodorks and libbies would do well to remember Obama was born to an unmarried 18 year old. Palins daughter already has plans to be married. I like her way better.
I don't think Obama had much of a choice there. Palin's daughter had a choice, his mother has had choices, but the still unborn child didn't have a say on any of their choices.
From Wikipedia about Obama: "His parents met while attending the University of Hawaii at Manoa, where his father was a foreign student.[2] They separated when he was two years old and later divorced.[3] Obama's father returned to Kenya and saw him only once more before dying in an automobile accident in 1982."
It doesn't tell when Obama's parents were married, but apparently they too had plans to be married and the plan was carried out, albeit short lived. For his background Obama has had a great success in life without the kickstart of well established parents. Not to forget he's of the "wrong colour" too. A man with a strong will to pursue his dreams. I can only wish the same would apply to many others of the "wrong colour". Not to forget, McCain is also a man to respect.
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Not to forget he's of the "wrong colour" too.
Jeeze man, cant a brother get a break!
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Your first post on the Bay of Pigs had this:
It's clear you were just talking out your bellybutton or that you really don't have any knowledge of the history of the operation. Possibly both, I guess.
Your idea that Yeager got his history from "a story you were told and you believe?..." is easily refuted.
You were given quotes from the JFK library showing that Kennedy cancelled a promised airstrike. That is undeniably a promise of military involvement that was broken.
You were given a link to a Time article written shortly after Bay of Pigs that points out that the Bay of Pigs invaders were actually promised three days of airstrikes which Kennedy cut to two and then cancelled the second one. So, that's an even larger promise of military involvement which was not kept.
You should just cut your losses and apologize to Yeager.
Wow Taod... how about going back to the original post...read them in order...pay attention to the convenient cut and paste of points to ignore and points to fart about...see how many blowhards can jump in and cut and paste to their convenience...ignore the fact that the original post had nothing to do to what the clown pulled out and responded to...then throw your bozo points in too
cuz its a circus ...
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Hey man, you posted it as a challenge to Yeager. Your challenge showed a clear lack of knowledge and had the added insult to Yeager that he merely believed a story he was told.
What he believed and what you apparently never did enough research to discover, is that there was a promise of military involvement that Kennedy failed to keep.
Be upset if you like but facts are facts and you were just totally wrong on this and got called on it.
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Hey man, you posted it as a challenge to Yeager. Your challenge showed a clear lack of knowledge and had the added insult to Yeager that he merely believed a story he was told.
What he believed and what you apparently never did enough research to discover, is that there was a promise of military involvement that Kennedy failed to keep.
Be upset if you like but facts are facts and you were just totally wrong on this and got called on it.
Again taod...you still haven't read the original post and the followups have you - you just waded in to throw your crap into the toilet...wade in from the beginning...you have no clue until you do the actual research....perhaps when i read the first response ,,,,which by the way had nothing to do with the original post,,,oh you dont know that do you?...you just waded in to throw in your opinion withouit having a clue...figures....perhaps i misread it... perhaps when i read that there were additional planes sent...which wasnt first put in caps and bold...but were in there....like i said it was a cluster****... but had nothing to do with the ORIGINAL post...that would be something you are clueless about...
"Be upset if you like but facts are facts and you were just totally wrong on this and got called on it." ,,,get this wasn't called on anything...there was additional forces sent in...that was my point
be nice if you had something to contribute...but sadly...you don't
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Again taod...you still haven't read the original post and the followups have you - you just waded in to throw your crap into the toilet...wade in from the beginning...you have no clue until you do the actual research....perhaps when i read the first response ,,,,which by the way had nothing to do with the original post,,,oh you dont know that do you?...you just waded in to throw in your opinion withouit having a clue...figures....perhaps i misread it... perhaps when i read that there were additional planes sent...which wasnt first put in caps and bold...but were in there....like i said it was a cluster****... but had nothing to do with the ORIGINAL post...that would be something you are clueless about...
"Be upset if you like but facts are facts and you were just totally wrong on this and got called on it." ,,,get this wasn't called on anything...there was additional forces sent in...that was my point
be nice if you had something to contribute...but sadly...you don't
Live with much angst? :huh
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lol
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Considering that the democrats will do their damndest to discredit her, yes, legal representation is a good idea. They will likely try to make it equal to Bill Clinton's sexual harrassment and lying under oath case.
sounds like she is self destructing all on her own :rofl
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sounds like she is self destructing all on her own :rofl
Really.....how is she self destructing? Troopergate has been an ongoing deal since before she became McCain's running mate, it just made national news for the rest of us is all. Her daughter being pregnant is a family matter and shouldn't have even been made public. Her firing of the police chief of Wasilla is a non issue since the judicial system in Alaska said she was well within her legal authority as Mayor to fire him, or anyone else that worked for the city.
What am I missing?
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sounds like she is self destructing all on her own :rofl
Sounds like wishful thinking, delusional but considering she is likely to close the deal for McCain, understandable.
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Live with much angst? :huh
nah, just like to type
also read something before i respond...and not selectively cut and paste
but...not a habit on this board so you deal with it...lol
how about you?
live with much of anything?
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live with much of anything?
Just my wife and daughters. Oh, and the cat that seems to think I am the greatest thing since canned fish. (Dunno what I did to deserve that. :D )
and not selectively cut and paste
I do that all the time simply because I want to respond to certain parts of a post. ;)
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sounds like she is self destructing all on her own :rofl
She looks to be doing great :D
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there was additional forces sent in...that was my point
lol what in hell are you talking about :aok
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lol what in hell are you talking about :aok
lol
never mind...you aren't going to go back and read either....your just going to select one thing and go off on it..and totally ignore everything else.......
i feel dumber already after doing this head bashing for 2 days...
dealing with sheeple is frustrating
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I tend to peruse quickly through the intense stuff, my attention suffers much past the 5th or 6th line....
I like the authors who get to the point quickly, with wit and confidence.
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Really.....how is she self destructing? Troopergate has been an ongoing deal since before she became McCain's running mate, it just made national news for the rest of us is all. Her daughter being pregnant is a family matter and shouldn't have even been made public. Her firing of the police chief of Wasilla is a non issue since the judicial system in Alaska said she was well within her legal authority as Mayor to fire him, or anyone else that worked for the city.
What am I missing?
Your missing the entire point, she has been the VP choice for what, less then a week and this has gone right to defending her with very little effort put into attacking her. Wait til the real deal starts and all you hear is about this woman and her issues.
wait til the real political slime machine gets cranked up, this was a bad choice for VP. Either they didn't look to deeply into her or they just weren't thinking what was going to happen. either way they are going to spend alot of time dealing with this, and being asked questions, and disproving accusations true or not ,it's going to kill them.
That's what I mean by self destructing, and if you can't see that, i think you are missing something.
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Your missing the entire point, she has been the VP choice for what, less then a week and this has gone right to defending her with very little effort put into attacking her. Wait til the real deal starts and all you hear is about this woman and her issues.
Every bit of this stuff is minor, non of it is even close to deal killing.
It's actually a pretty sad attempt at smearing her really. As soon as she was named as McCain's running mate it was inevitable that every little thing that could be considered negative about her would start to surface.
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NwBie, can you recap for me bud?
The rhumatiz in ma clckin finger is actin` up. :devil
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Your missing the entire point, she has been the VP choice for what, less then a week and this has gone right to defending her with very little effort put into attacking her. Wait til the real deal starts and all you hear is about this woman and her issues.
wait til the real political slime machine gets cranked up, this was a bad choice for VP. Either they didn't look to deeply into her or they just weren't thinking what was going to happen. either way they are going to spend alot of time dealing with this, and being asked questions, and disproving accusations true or not ,it's going to kill them.
That's what I mean by self destructing, and if you can't see that, i think you are missing something.
Ya know, in less than a week, I've learned more about her than I've learned about Barack in 2 years....wonder why that is....
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Your missing the entire point, she has been the VP choice for what, less then a week and this has gone right to defending her with very little effort put into attacking her. Wait til the real deal starts and all you hear is about this woman and her issues.
wait til the real political slime machine gets cranked up, this was a bad choice for VP. Either they didn't look to deeply into her or they just weren't thinking what was going to happen. either way they are going to spend alot of time dealing with this, and being asked questions, and disproving accusations true or not ,it's going to kill them.
That's what I mean by self destructing, and if you can't see that, i think you are missing something.
you are new too this so I'll "splain" it too you,, she is a "republican" , she needs to have things for the media too look at in a bad light! if she didn't they would start making this crap up, or telling you how dumb she is!
this way she has nothing too hide, it's all there on the table, you just have too decide if it is relevant?
Ya know, in less than a week, I've learned more about her than I've learned about Barack in 2 years....wonder why that is....
exactly! :aok
why are the media not comparing this to the fact the oboma was born to an 18 year old unwed mother/polygamist father? :huh
why are they not talking about oboma's brother who lives in poverty, while he talks about helping family first
sitting in his million dollar mansion? :o
why are they not focusing on the fact that Mrs Palin has a son about to go to Iraq? :salute
why do they not tell you that John McCain has too son's that either have been or are serving? :salute :salute
why do they not tell you that the McCains buy and sell investment property for profit instead of gluttony as oboma would have you believe? :O
funniest thing i have seen in a while was last night on T.V.. (poor poor Katie down on bourbon st.) :cry
the RNC gave up its broadcast time to the networks for fundraising for the hurricane! :pray
ABC, tried to go out and find republicans that were going to parties sponsered by big oil :rofl
i bet that really helped out the displaced poeple of N.O. :frown:
i didn't see NBC doing any major hit peices on Mrs Palin but they did talk about the pregnancy. ;)
CBS in its wisdom did a hit piece on Mrs. Palin! :furious
a good 15 minutes or more dedicated to talking trash about this woman and her daughter :furious
even tho oboma asked them , and all of you to leave this thing alone? :P
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Ya know, in less than a week, I've learned more about her than I've learned about Barack in 2 years....wonder why that is....
:rofl :rofl :rofl Bj229 I always but always enjoy your concise and true points. :salute
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CBS in its wisdom did a hit piece on Mrs. Palin! :furious
a good 15 minutes or more dedicated to talking trash about this woman and her daughter :furious
even tho oboma asked them , and all of you to leave this thing alone? :P
[/b][/i]
[/quote]
That just tells me the hit the Democrats took when she was chosen. :aok
BTW, any one have an urge to go caribou hunting?
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the reason we have learned more about her in a week than we ever knew about osamabama and.. for that matter... biden.. is because..
They are old news.. one has burned out his rock star status and the other is a buffoon that is pretty boring.
The angst of the left is palpable.
newbie.. where have I seen your tactics before? you know.. the one where you lose a debate so you just declare everyone else to dumb to get it?
lazs
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Ya know, in less than a week, I've learned more about her than I've learned about Barack in 2 years....wonder why that is....
Probably because you don't care for him and didn't bother.
For the record, I'm not a democrat or a Republican.
I don't care for either McCain or Obama.
The problem with this country is our locked in two party system that kills any attempt at a third party or any independent running for major office. The two party system insures that nothing will change and kills independent thought outside the goals of the two party's. The federal government has become the monster that can not be fed. The most important goal of both party's is to put as many of their people into the government as possible by whatever means they can. The federal government was meant to act as a sort of "UN" a means of coordinating mutual defence and providing a single voice to the world at large, it was meant to serve the states not overpower them.
The only point i was making in regards to Palin is that she was a poor choice in that the only thing she really brings to the table is that she is female. The baggage that she brings with her news worthy or not will follow McCain thru to the end and beyond should he win. If anything it makes me question his judgement.
In Obamas case, Republicans have alot of nerve crying foul over coverage of Palins issues in as much as they have tryed to paint him as everything from a Muslim to a Marxist. Both party's are quick to leave debate behind in favor of insults half truths and personal attacks.
The fact of the matter is alot of Americans are tired of voting against someone rather then for someone. Picking the lesser of two evils is no way to run a nation.
Now you can draw whatever conclusions you have about me or my views and let your insults fly (this comment not directed at "bj") People of both party's need to stop following like sheep and start asking solid relevant questions as to how their candidates plan on running our country and not allow such nonsense as these personal smear campains to continue.
just my 9 cents, keep the change.
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The problem with this country is our locked in two party system that kills any attempt at a third party or any independent running for major office. The two party system insures that nothing will change and kills independent thought outside the goals of the two party's. The federal government has become the monster that can not be fed. The most important goal of both party's is to put as many of their people into the government as possible by whatever means they can.
:salute
I think she brings more to the table than any of the other 3 'tards combined. She is pro 2nd amendment, is tough on corruption (even within her own party) and has the guts to stand up to corporations. She believes public office is about serving the people and not serving your own self interests. She is also a whole lot better looking than all of the rest of them combined. :D
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Yanks, the BBS are no place for the truth! :aok
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the liberal media is in full attack mode, now they are saying she should stay at home and take care of the kids. They are afraid, very afraid.
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Lard you know as well as I do that if Chelsy Clinton had gotten pregnant unmarried and under 18 the Republicans would have been screaming bloody murder. They would have been yelling and screaming about family values and the whole nine yards. This whole thing just shows how much of hypocrites people like Palin are. They preach their family values and all that stuff claiming their way is better yet they end up in the same shoes and everyone else.
I am however amazed you managed to make a post with out claiming something was socialist. However you did get the liberal whine in so I guess it's always one or the other.. :lol
Had Chelsy gotten pregnant ... it wouldn't have even registered as a blip on the radar screen in light of Bill's indiscretions in the Oval Office with Monica and the "cigar" ... along with the follow on investigation where Bill said ... "ummm, I didn't have sex with her ... she had sex with me". What a tool.
You should really look up the definition of "hypocrite" ...
a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
The actions of Palin's daughter (or any of their kids) DOES NOT make them hypocrites. Palin has HER beliefs and there is nothing showing that she doesn't live them or live up to them.
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I don't think Obama had much of a choice there. Palin's daughter had a choice, his mother has had choices, but the still unborn child didn't have a say on any of their choices.
Good thing Obama's mother didn't think a child was a "punishment". Well, good for him I guess.
:aok
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NwBie, can you recap for me bud?
The rhumatiz in ma clckin finger is actin` up. :devil
<SLAP>
Howz the family?
all well I hope... hugs to da granpups
:)
Newbs
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the reason we have learned more about her in a week than we ever knew about osamabama and.. for that matter... biden.. is because..
They are old news.. one has burned out his rock star status and the other is a buffoon that is pretty boring.
The angst of the left is palpable.
newbie.. where have I seen your tactics before? you know.. the one where you lose a debate so you just declare everyone else to dumb to get it?
lazs
Ummmmmm........... in one of your posts?
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If you can rewrite your last post to me in English, I'll reply.
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Had Chelsy gotten pregnant ... it wouldn't have even registered as a blip on the radar screen in light of Bill's indiscretions in the Oval Office with Monica and the "cigar" ... along with the follow on investigation where Bill said ... "ummm, I didn't have sex with her ... she had sex with me". What a tool.
You should really look up the definition of "hypocrite" ...
a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
The actions of Palin's daughter (or any of their kids) DOES NOT make them hypocrites. Palin has HER beliefs and there is nothing showing that she doesn't live them or live up to them.
How about Jesse Jackson being an advisor to Bill during his "troubles"
then a while later it is exposed about his own little daliance
Now that was funny :)
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the liberal media is in full attack mode, now they are saying she should stay at home and take care of the kids. They are afraid, very afraid.
I suppose you watch the news "fair and balanced" in the "no spin zone"
Not saying that there are no liberals in media but there are just as many conservatives, if you say that there are not, then that tells me that conservative views are not as popular, in as much as media news coverage is a reflection of the views of the majority of viewers, otherwise their media outlets would fall by the wayside.
People need to listen to the information that is out there and form opinions of their own, ask questions and don't except nonsense and double talk for answers. Those that continue to report half truths and outright BS need to be held accountable.
The subject of this thread was "IS Sarah Palin a Good VP pick?
For the reasons I have mentioned, my answer is NO she is not and McCain and the GOP win or loose will come to regret the choice, and the nation will have to suffer thru all the negative crap that will come from it rather then have a true debate about the future of this nation.
Again it comes down to Republicans and Democrats, the two party system is ruining our nation and selling out the American dream.
Every presidential election is billed as "the most important election in our history" , THIS election will decide or at least set us down a path that there is no turning from,ie... Economic, Energy policy, social security, Defence, American infrastructure, the Deficit, Education, Healthcare the list is too long to go thru and all are in or near crisis, never b4 have so many issues been so important to get right and there are two viable choices.
liberal Democrats and conservative Republicans, the left and the right, combined make up about 20% of the nations population, this 20% or so are all you can hear from, the 80% are trapped in the middle without a calm and common voice. this is the end result of the two party power house's that have taken control of our nation. And will in the end fail us all.
I don't think either party is up to the task. And both will sell us out in favor of keeping their party in power over any other concern.
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How about Jesse Jackson being an advisor to Bill during his "troubles"
then a while later it is exposed about his own little daliance
Now that was funny :)
Yup ... he really sealed the deal with me when he first ran. It was the "thing" then for all the candidates to fess up on the use of drugs back in their youthful days.
Bill pipes up ... "I tried marijuana ... but I didn't inhale" ... ummm, then you didn't really try it and anyone who did try it ... INHALED !!!
That told me ... that he was a lying scum bag ... which he later proved without a doubt.
Sorry for the digression ...
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Yup ... he really sealed the deal with me when he first ran. It was the "thing" then for all the candidates to fess up on the use of drugs back in their youthful days.
Bill pipes up ... "I tried marijuana ... but I didn't inhale" ... ummm, then you didn't really try it and anyone who did try it ... INHALED !!!
That told me ... that he was a lying scum bag ... which he later proved without a doubt.
Sorry for the digression ...
funniest thing i thought of was, who is he trying to kid, i mean the pot smokers were luaghing there heads off :rofl
going wow i wander if that will work, and it did :rofl
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LOL, As far as Bill Clinton goes aside from whatever your opinion of him may be.
Anyone that can argue the meaning of the word "IS" , and bring the meaning into dout, I don't wanna debate!
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I suppose you watch the news "fair and balanced" in the "no spin zone"
Nope.. I actually get most of my news off CNN... I flip around; BBC, Fox, MSNBC. Gotta check 'em all.. the real story is in there somewhere.
The subject of this thread was "IS Sarah Palin a Good VP pick?
Well... that's where we started. It's been an interesting run.
For the reasons I have mentioned, my answer is NO she is not and McCain and the GOP win or loose will come to regret the choice, and the nation will have to suffer thru all the negative crap that will come from it rather then have a true debate about the future of this nation.
Disagree... but that's the fun of the debate.
Every presidential election is billed as "the most important election in our history" , THIS election will decide or at least set us down a path that there is no turning from,ie... Economic, Energy policy, social security, Defence, American infrastructure, the Deficit, Education, Healthcare the list is too long to go thru and all are in or near crisis, never b4 have so many issues been so important to get right and there are two viable choices.
Two viable choices... and if we hand over the presidency and the next two supreme court appointments to the liberals with an effective majority in the senate & in the house, we'll see the country in the crapper even sooner. That's not change I can believe in... or want.
I don't think either party is up to the task. And both will sell us out in favor of keeping their party in power over any other concern.
Sure... at least there's some debate. Your proposing what... an autocracy? Theocracy? Corporatism? What? Third party... there's a lot more than three of 'em.
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.... and after watching her speech... I'd have to say the answer to the question; is yup. She's the one.
"You Go, Barracuda!"
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.... and after watching her speech... I'd have to say the answer to the question; is yup. She's the one.
"You Go, Barracuda!"
yep :aok enough said!