Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Wmaker on August 30, 2014, 06:40:55 AM
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Russian state's aircraft have violated Finnish airspace three times during last week. It is pretty clear now that these violations are hardly accidental. Finnish Air Force has increased its readiness and has placed F/A-18s to Helsinki-Vantaa international airport to have a shorter interception distance to the Gulf of Finland region.
Contrary to the normal practices, Finnish Air Force has published a picture its fighter took of the Antonov An-72 which was responsible of the latest airspace violation which happened last Thursday:
(http://www.puolustusvoimat.fi/wcm/a4b229004543f99692b4be609a8fa5d4/1/440_kuva_28_8_014.JPG?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=a4b229004543f99692b4be609a8fa5d4/1)
Picture: Ilmavoimat / Finnish Air Force
Based on the register, the aircraft belongs to Federal Security Service of the Russian Federation.
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Russian state's aircraft have violated Finnish airspace three times during last week. It is pretty clear now that these violations are hardly accidental. Finnish Air Force has increased its readiness and has placed F/A-18s to Helsinki-Vantaa international airport to have a shorter interception distance to the Gulf of Finland region.
Contrary to the normal practices, Finnish Air Force has published a picture its fighter took of the Antonov An-72 which was responsible of the latest airspace violation which happened last Thursday:
(http://www.puolustusvoimat.fi/wcm/a4b229004543f99692b4be609a8fa5d4/1/440_kuva_28_8_014.JPG?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=a4b229004543f99692b4be609a8fa5d4/1)
Picture: Ilmavoimat / Finnish Air Force
Based on the register, the aircraft belongs to Federal Security Service of the Russian Federation.
Not only that they're flying with a civilian flight plan despite being military planes. Poland just banned the Russian defence chiefs plane from its airspace after they changed the planes status from civilian to military on return flight.
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Warm up the Brewsters!
Kippis!
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z207/Pimpzdog/B-239BuffaloBW-384_zps64abec91.jpg) (http://s191.photobucket.com/user/Pimpzdog/media/B-239BuffaloBW-384_zps64abec91.jpg.html)
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Warm up the Brewsters!
Kippis!
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z207/Pimpzdog/B-239BuffaloBW-384_zps64abec91.jpg) (http://s191.photobucket.com/user/Pimpzdog/media/B-239BuffaloBW-384_zps64abec91.jpg.html)
The idiots demolished them all just when we would have needed them. They would totally pwn anything the russkies have! :airplane:
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What are the Russkies trying to do with that aircraft in the pic? Kill off the Finnish Air Force with an overdose of smurfy?
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What are the Russkies trying to do with that aircraft in the pic? Kill off the Finnish Air Force with an overdose of smurfy?
Test what FiAF response is, times to respond, try to listen radio traffic, etc. The plane looks the way it does because it was designed as a STOL transport. The high speed jet air flow gets deflected downwards to the direction of the airfoil (Coanda effect) increasing lift.
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Putin and the boys are ramping things up.
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That's no simple transport plane. Look at all those antennae sticking out everywhere. That's an ESM bird. When the Ilmavoimat intercepts it the FSB will scoop up all the "trons" in the air to analyze and help them defeat the Finnish radars and communications later. Same mission we're flying in the Barents Sea with our P-3's against the Russians, except our P-3's are military and not spook birds dressed up as civilian transports.
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That's no simple transport plane. Look at all those antennae sticking out everywhere. That's an ESM bird. When the Ilmavoimat intercepts it the FSB will scoop up all the "trons" in the air to analyze and help them defeat the Finnish radars and communications later. Same mission we're flying in the Barents Sea with our P-3's against the Russians, except our P-3's are military and not spook birds dressed up as civilian transports.
My airplane has more antennas than that thing does.
They're Com and Nav antennas. It doesn't even have Wifi.
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That's no simple transport plane. Look at all those antennae sticking out everywhere. That's an ESM bird.
No one said it was, as said it belongs to the Federal Security Service, former KGB.
...it's pretty clear that it is all intentional provoking. As Ripley said it was flying under civilian status and based on our Boarder Guard's investigation it was initially given a flight plan that would clip Finnish air space. It is said that it was "a faulty" flight plan but even Russians aren't that careless...all intentional.
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No one said it was.
The Russians are trying to make it look like a civilian transport.
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My airplane has more antennas than that thing does.
They're Com and Nav antennas. It doesn't even have Wifi.
I agree, the same antennas can be seen on civilian AN-72s. Modern aircraft tend to have all kinds of avionics. ;)
My response to Scherf was more in the lines of "general MO" in these kind of situations. No idea what is actually going on inside that plane. But as I said, it is pretty clear that it didn't fly into Finnish air space accidentally.
Link to a news article in English: http://yle.fi/uutiset/third_russian_airspace_violation_in_a_week_finland_steps_up_air_surveillance/7438235 (http://yle.fi/uutiset/third_russian_airspace_violation_in_a_week_finland_steps_up_air_surveillance/7438235)
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Warm up the Brewsters!
Kippis!
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z207/Pimpzdog/B-239BuffaloBW-384_zps64abec91.jpg) (http://s191.photobucket.com/user/Pimpzdog/media/B-239BuffaloBW-384_zps64abec91.jpg.html)
lol, my thought exactly! :D
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Everyone is daft :rofl
Paraniod
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Everyone is daft :rofl
Paraniod
There's nothing paranoid with intentional border breaches.
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For goodness sake it was Korea three months ago :old:
Who are you not suspicious of?
name one country
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For goodness sake it was Korea three months ago :old:
Who are you not suspicious of?
name one country
Must be nice living in a country the world doesn't care about enough to fight...
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Must be nice living in a country the world doesn't care about enough to fight...
Yes... When was the last time your border was violated by a Mexican military aircraft?
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Yes... When was the last time your border was violated by a Mexican military aircraft?
Drug Cartel airplanes count?
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Drug Cartel airplanes count?
:lol
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Must be nice living in a country the world doesn't care about enough to fight...
Fight what?
Grow up!
Fight the Russians for gods sake, the biggest investers in Russia are the US conglomerates!
Yes alright its the Russians, syrians, Iranians chinese koreans redcoats goerge the III braveheart koreans japanese Mexicans Iraqi bolivia all of south America and tom jones who are the enemy
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For goodness sake it was Korea three months ago :old:
Who are you not suspicious of?
name one country
Personally I never trusted you funny talking, kipper eating, tea slurpers. :P
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Goldman Sachs just sent out a quarterly update to significant stock holders. They note the uncertainty in the financial markets and warn about extreme risk. And they tie this to Russia and the Ukraine. Bottom line, financial markets are completely screwed up, likely to collapse and they want to blame Russia and Putin.
Economics begates war....always.
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Fight what?
Grow up!
Fight the Russians for gods sake, the biggest investers in Russia are the US conglomerates!
Yes alright its the Russians, syrians, Iranians chinese koreans redcoats goerge the III braveheart koreans japanese Mexicans Iraqi bolivia all of south America and tom jones who are the enemy
Just what alternative are you offering? "Bugger the countries, no one is really ever gonna fight, just sing kumbaya and the world will be peachy"? I'm not saying we need to jump to arms at every junction, but there are international treaties and laws that have been written, which are currently being violated. While YOU as an individual see no need to enforce these laws, I certainly think action is warranted. It's not paranoia, it's cause and effect.
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Finland is a rebellious territory of the Russian Empire
:bolt:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Flag-map_of_the_Russian_Empire_%28flag_for_private_use%29.svg/800px-Flag-map_of_the_Russian_Empire_%28flag_for_private_use%29.svg.png)
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Yes... When was the last time your border was violated by a Mexican military aircraft?
July 27, 2014, as a matter of fact. Any more questions?
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2014/06/27/mexican-military-helicopter-flies-into-us-shoots-at-border-patrol-agents-flies-back-n1856443
Fight what?
Grow up!
Fight the Russians for gods sake, the biggest investers in Russia are the US conglomerates!
Yes alright its the Russians, syrians, Iranians chinese koreans redcoats goerge the III braveheart koreans japanese Mexicans Iraqi bolivia all of south America and tom jones who are the enemy
Yep, life is much easier with your head buried in the dirt.
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Fight what?
Grow up!
Fight the Russians for gods sake, the biggest investers in Russia are the US conglomerates!
Yes alright its the Russians, syrians, Iranians chinese koreans redcoats goerge the III braveheart koreans japanese Mexicans Iraqi bolivia all of south America and tom jones who are the enemy
:rofl :rofl :rofl :aok
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Yes... When was the last time your border was violated by a Mexican military aircraft?
Today I would assume.
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Today I would assume.
So are you saying that Mexico has 50 times larger military than the US and you see it as a pressuring force to your country? Or how can you even begin to compare these two incidents? :huh
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You have all been fooled :old:
Canada will spark WWIII :old:
They will cut-off the world supply of maple syrup sparking unrest :old:
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So are you saying that Mexico has 50 times larger military than the US and you see it as a pressuring force to your country? Or how can you even begin to compare these two incidents? :huh
He didn't come up with the comparison. A countryman of yours did.
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Fight what?
Grow up!
Fight the Russians for gods sake, the biggest investers in Russia are the US conglomerates!
Yes alright its the Russians, syrians, Iranians chinese koreans redcoats goerge the III braveheart koreans japanese Mexicans Iraqi bolivia all of south America and tom jones who are the enemy
:rofl :rofl
Especially Tom Jones!
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He didn't come up with the comparison. A countryman of yours did.
Yes, he assumed that no smaller neighbor country would be crazy enough to violate US airspace. But he forgot the Mexicans are nuts :D
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Yes, he assumed that no smaller neighbor country would be crazy enough to violate US airspace. But he forgot the Mexicans are nuts :D
why do you think that? I dont think people from your country are nuts based on all your rants on the forums :rolleyes:.
semp
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why do you think that? I dont think people from your country are nuts based on all your rants on the forums :rolleyes:.
semp
Why do I think that? Mexico city.
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You know that Europe buys its gas from Russia?.
So what happens when it will not sell it to Europe?
The gas companys will use European supplies and charge us 5 times as much blaming the Russians for the problem
Who owns the gas companies?.
Some US conglomerate,
What costs me £5 will now cost me £25
They have made a vast profit without scratching their botts and spending a penny :rofl
It happens every 40 years re jigging the economy, reduce the circulation of money and blame it on world events :rofl
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You know that Europe buys its gas from Russia?.
So what happens when it will not sell it to Europe?
The gas companys will use European supplies and charge us 5 times as much blaming the Russians for the problem
Who owns the gas companies?.
Some US conglomerate,
What costs me £5 will now cost me £25
They have made a vast profit without scratching their botts and spending a penny :rofl
It happens every 40 years re jigging the economy, reduce the circulation of money and blame it on world events :rofl
The price will raise about 25-30%. No worries.
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Why do I think that? Mexico city.
mexico city is a country on its own within mexico. heck we dont even consider them mexicans. and trust me nobody trusts anybody from mexico city.
semp
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July 27, 2014, as a matter of fact. Any more questions?
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2014/06/27/mexican-military-helicopter-flies-into-us-shoots-at-border-patrol-agents-flies-back-n1856443
Yep, life is much easier with your head buried in the dirt.
Today I would assume.
Alright, I stand corrected, I should have investigated the facts before asking. As MrRipley said, I foolishly assumed that no smaller neighbor country would be crazy enough to violate US airspace.
Now that I know better, let me ask this: Do you think that those border violations are made for testing how easy invading and conquering your country might be? And I'm talking about the entire country or at least a state, including the capital. Just saying that things may look different viewed from the other side of the globe. No offence intended.
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mexico city is a country on its own within mexico. heck we dont even consider them mexicans. and trust me nobody trusts anybody from mexico city.
semp
Hmm so they might be lying when they're saying its dangerous and polluted. :ahand
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i am Mexican :old:
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i am Mexican :old:
I am from Oaxaca you should come visit.
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Hmm so they might be lying when they're saying its dangerous and polluted. :ahand
so based on that you say that all mexicans are nuts? ever been to california? we have cities here that are dangerous and polluted.
semp
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so based on that you say that all mexicans are nuts? ever been to california? we have cities here that are dangerous and polluted.
semp
No I say they're nuts because of the way drug cartels rampage the country, the police is corrupted and by the way they seem to do aerial attacks on their neighbors.
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No I say they're nuts because of the way drug cartels rampage the country, the police is corrupted and by the way they seem to do aerial attacks on their neighbors.
which aerial attacks and on which country? and name one country where drug cartels dont rule and the police is not corrupt.
semp
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Finland is a rebellious territory of the Russian Empire
:bolt:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Flag-map_of_the_Russian_Empire_%28flag_for_private_use%29.svg/800px-Flag-map_of_the_Russian_Empire_%28flag_for_private_use%29.svg.png)
I'm living ~15,5 miles from the border. I'm not laughing.
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If Russia invades can I have your Graphics card? :old:
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If Russia invades can I have your Graphics card? :old:
You wont be maiking fun when Congo invades Uganda, they have no pies in Congo so they will come and take yours.
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If Russia invades can I have your Graphics card? :old:
Zack, strap some weight in your ankles and take a long walk off of a short pier.
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which aerial attacks and on which country? and name one country where drug cartels dont rule and the police is not corrupt.
semp
Um, Finland.
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Alright, I stand corrected, I should have investigated the facts before asking. As MrRipley said, I foolishly assumed that Now that I know better, let me ask this: Do you think that those border violations are made for testing how easy invading and conquering your country might be? And I'm talking about the entire country or at least a state, including the capital. Just saying that things may look different viewed from the other side of the globe. No offence intended.
From the perspective of living some sixty odd miles from the border, it's a lack of leadership and will power at the highest level. It is also the attractive lure of millions of potential voters who will never vote against all the freebies they receive.
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Zack, strap some weight in your ankles and take a long walk off of a short pier.
Its an outrage!
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Um, Finland.
they dont sell drugs in finland? really?
semp
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Russia and Mexico want their former territory back. I think the UK will be getting jealous and side with the Mexicans to divide up the US. :bolt:
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We dont want San Fransisco or do we want to put flowers in our hair :old:
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Russia and Mexico want their former territory back. I think the UK will be getting jealous and side with the Mexicans to divide up the US. :bolt:
what about canada?
semp
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Hell, the USA is just a rebellious territory of the British Empire... :uhoh :lol
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Ukraine coast guard ship sinking today , struck by an unknown object ;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dAi6mcvANE
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they dont sell drugs in finland? really?
semp
Drugs are sold everywhere, also here. We don't have drug cartels, though. Drugs here are either imported by some foreign criminals - yes, maybe by the Russian Mafia - or manufactured in a garage by someone hoping to get rich quick. Nothing like in the movies where known criminal bosses live untouchable in their mansions guarded by armed criminals.
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You know that Europe buys its gas from Russia?.
So what happens when it will not sell it to Europe?
The gas companys will use European supplies and charge us 5 times as much blaming the Russians for the problem
Who owns the gas companies?.
Some US conglomerate,
What costs me £5 will now cost me £25
They have made a vast profit without scratching their botts and spending a penny :rofl
It happens every 40 years re jigging the economy, reduce the circulation of money and blame it on world events :rofl
:headscratch: British Petroleum. :headscratch:
Personally, what about sending the Russians Louis Walsh? :old:
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What about BP?
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What about BP?
You know, that company with a Swedish chairperson and American CEO that used to be called British Petroleum so is forever more inherently British.
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You know, that company with a Swedish chairperson and American CEO that used to be called British Petroleum so is forever more inherently British.
Not to mention that they are headquartered in London.....
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So are you saying that Mexico has 50 times larger military than the US and you see it as a pressuring force to your country? Or how can you even begin to compare these two incidents? :huh
Did anyone else come to this conclusion from what I said?
A brief explanation of my quip is there has been multiple incursions by the Mexican military on both the ground and in the air that go unchecked. A Mexican military helicopter fired on Border patrol agents a week or so ago. They were kind enough to land and apologize however. So nothing on our southern border would surprise me at this point.
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Did anyone else come to this conclusion from what I said?
A brief explanation of my quip is there has been multiple incursions by the Mexican military on both the ground and in the air that go unchecked. A Mexican military helicopter fired on Border patrol agents a week or so ago. They were kind enough to land and apologize however. So nothing on our southern border would surprise me at this point.
Yeah well the Russian activity is state mandated and malicious. No accidents there.
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Not to mention that they are headquartered in London.....
An the point of this is?. :old:
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Yeah well the Russian activity is state mandated and malicious. No accidents there.
It may be unusual for you guys living in a neutral country, but it is business as usual for us NATO guys. Here in Norway we average about 400 interceptions a year of Russian aircraft. And most of them are not unarmed transports.
(http://www.fofo.no/filestore/BLACKJACKogF-160707_09.jpg)
(http://www.aftenposten.no/migration_catalog/article5682009.ece/BINARY/w980/RUSSISKE+FLY+-sx5e1979+tittel.jpg)
(http://www.aftenposten.no/migration_catalog/article5902943.ece/BINARY/w980/BRITAIN-RUSSIA-BOMBERS+-jagerflytittel.jpg)
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Yeah well the Russian activity is state mandated and malicious. No accidents there.
Did I say it wasn't? And what makes you think the Mexican incursions aren't?
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It may be unusual for you guys living in a neutral country, but it is business as usual for us NATO guys. Here in Norway we average about 400 interceptions a year of Russian aircraft. And most of them are not unarmed transports.
(http://www.fofo.no/filestore/BLACKJACKogF-160707_09.jpg)
(http://www.aftenposten.no/migration_catalog/article5682009.ece/BINARY/w980/RUSSISKE+FLY+-sx5e1979+tittel.jpg)
(http://www.aftenposten.no/migration_catalog/article5902943.ece/BINARY/w980/BRITAIN-RUSSIA-BOMBERS+-jagerflytittel.jpg)
Russians do not violate NATO airspace like they do on countries which not in NATO. NATO scrambles fighters to recognize Russian military aircraft when they are flying close to the airspace border.
Completely and totally apples to oranges.
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they dont sell drugs in finland? really?
semp
The drug cartels don't rule here, really.
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Did I say it wasn't? And what makes you think the Mexican incursions aren't?
I don't know about your country but in my society landing and apologising indicates some sort of accidental activity. :cool:
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Russians do not violate NATO airspace like they do on countries which not in NATO. NATO scrambles fighters to recognize Russian military aircraft when they are flying close to the airspace border.
Completely and totally apples to oranges.
When and if we are late they don't stop at the border. They fly up and down our coast just outside the border, but if they think they can get away with it they make a dash for a city or airbase. Tromsø, Andøya and Bodø are typical "targets". In the '90s we were terribly late one day and a Russian bomber managed to overfly Tromsø before being intercepted. That was not a good day to be the chief of the RNoAF...
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When and if we are late they don't stop at the border. They fly up and down our coast just outside the border, but if they think they can get away with it they make a dash for a city or airbase. Tromsø, Andøya and Bodø are typical "targets". In the '90s we were terribly late one day and a Russian bomber managed to overfly Tromsø before being intercepted. That was not a good day to be the chief of the RNoAF...
Well, when you get your F-35s you can repay the visit :D
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Well, when you get your F-35s you can repay the visit :D
Then they could test if SAMs find the F35 or not. Russians shoot first, ask questions later.
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I don't know about your country but in my society landing and apologising indicates some sort of accidental activity. :cool:
Maybe apologies work in your country when you fire on law enforcement of another country on their side of the border. Come to think of it, we just pretend nothings wrong so I guess it really doesn't matter. The apology was a nice touch though. Usually they just shoot and return to Mexico after covering another cartel run.
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Then they could test if SAMs find the F35 or not. Russians shoot first, ask questions later.
That hasn't been true since the fall of the Soviet Union.
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The Russians fly down our coast and sometimes far enough to be intercepted by Danish or British fighters...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCoxCVWiLYE
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That hasn't been true since the fall of the Soviet Union.
Are you sure? Putler is doing his best to return the 'old glory' of the dark ages. And the population in Russia are just loving it.
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I didn't say it couldn't become true again in the future.
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I live in a so called 'neutral' country and no one dares violate our airspace otherwise we would send one of these after them:
(http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/v/t1.0-0/c147.0.665.373/s320x320/1233606_699161206778172_1614055786_n.jpg?oh=d72575693e85b2ff08eb27c6d71f773c&oe=54636CDF&__gda__=1416109017_30f9d1f832d9ea6b56dfa50d0073a843)
They would flee in terror!
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No country on this planet is an island :old:
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No country on this planet is an island :old:
Japan.
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Japan.
(http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k526/rwrk2/facepalm.gif)
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Are you sure? Putler is doing his best to return the 'old glory' of the dark ages. And the population in Russia are just loving it.
Bit like Europe with its right wing nationalist political parties :)
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I don't know about your country but in my society landing and apologising indicates some sort of accidental activity. :cool:
Or it might have been because they were caught in the act had a tinge of guilt.
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When and if we are late they don't stop at the border. They fly up and down our coast just outside the border, but if they think they can get away with it they make a dash for a city or airbase. Tromsø, Andøya and Bodø are typical "targets". In the '90s we were terribly late one day and a Russian bomber managed to overfly Tromsø before being intercepted. That was not a good day to be the chief of the RNoAF...
When talking about the recent times, the above is true about as much as RNoAF doing 400 intercepts a year...
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During the Cold War we had scrambles on average twice a day against Soviet aircraft. Now we're down to half that, but most are just flying down our coast just outside our border. In 1012 there were 71 interceptions of Russian aircraft attempting to breach our airspace and had to be diverted.None made it though. Around 2000 things were very quiet, but after 2006 Russian activity in the Norwegian Sea increased significantly.
And that makes me wonder what was your air force doing? Don't you guys intercept and ID all unknown and foreign military aircraft close to your border? Where was the Ilmavoimat when this An-72 breached your airspace?
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Heh... Just now two F-16s took off, afterburners lit, and headed out to sea. I live a few hundred meters from the airbase here in Bodø. :airplane: :airplane:
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During the Cold War we had scrambles on average twice a day against Soviet aircraft. Now we're down to half that, but most are just flying down our coast just outside our border. In 1012 there were 71 interceptions of Russian aircraft attempting to breach our airspace and had to be diverted.None made it though. Around 2000 things were very quiet, but after 2006 Russian activity in the Norwegian Sea increased significantly.
I don't see any reason to believe a word you are saying here except that the activity picked up after mid-2000s, the numbers you are stating are so ridiculous.
"Russian strategic bombers had 10 missions to the northwest during 2010, compared with 12 such missions in both 2009 and 2008.
In all, Norwegian F-16 fighter jets were scrambled 36 times from Bodø airbase in Northern Norway last year to identify Russian military aircrafts. In all 37 such Russian aircrafts were identified on missions outside Norwegian airspace in the north last year, shows the figures given to BarentsObserver by the Norwegian Joint Headquarters.
- There is a decline in the number of identified aircraft, but the number of scramble is about the same, says Lieutenant Colonel John Espen Lien, spokesman with the Joint Headquarters. - We have also seen that the number of aircraft on the so-called western flights (west of 30 degrees East) is lower than last year. This is due to several factors - both the change in the patterns of the missions, but also change in the base structure in Russia, explains Lien."
http://barentsobserver.com/en/sections/security/less-russian-military-aircrafts-vicinity-norwegian-airspace (http://barentsobserver.com/en/sections/security/less-russian-military-aircrafts-vicinity-norwegian-airspace)
And that makes me wonder what was your air force doing?
As unfortunate as it is, I must admit that I don't own an air force.
Where was the Ilmavoimat when this An-72 breached your airspace?
Who do you think took that pic I linked to this thread? :lol
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I don't see any reason to believe a word you are saying here except that the activity picked up after mid-2000s, the numbers you are stating are so ridiculous.
Well, Foxtrot Uniform to you too I guess. What do I know, I just live here. :)
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Test what FiAF response is, times to respond, try to listen radio traffic, etc. The plane looks the way it does because it was designed as a STOL transport. The high speed jet air flow gets deflected downwards to the direction of the airfoil (Coanda effect) increasing lift.
Yes, an innovation they implemented soon after the US design competition for what is now the C-17... That was, recall, both the YC-14 (Boeing) and YC-15 (MD). Both employed Coanda effect, though differently. What you see currently on the C-17 is similar to the YC-15 layout while the YC-14 had similar mounts to the Antonov. Coincidence..? Maybe.
Also, I uspect this thread will get locked. Recall, "war is state policy by other means"... and is inherently political. When you look at a globe, the countries are dfiferentiated by politcal borders, most of which were established by violent means, in direct contradiction of the silly bromide, "violence never solves anything".
I am therefore IN and am awesome like a dancing banana for predicting the ensuing LOCK. :banana:
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And that makes me wonder what was your air force doing? Don't you guys intercept and ID all unknown and foreign military aircraft close to your border? Where was the Ilmavoimat when this An-72 breached your airspace?
Due to cost saving reasons they weren't doing anything untill the press started asking questions. Now Helsinki is like the hornets nest (pun intended) and the propaganda machine is trying to convince people there's nothing to worry about. Yeah right.
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Well, Foxtrot Uniform to you too I guess. What do I know, I just live here. :)
:huh ??
I get an FU for rather believing Norwegian armed forces' spokesman instead of a neighbor of one of the Norwegian air force's bases?? Especially when there's such a huge difference compared to the numbers you initially posted? I mean, do you understand how ridiculous that figure of 400 sounded?
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Funny thing. Two more F-16s took off 10 minutes ago with full AB. They're only allowed to do that on scramble sorties due to noise regulations. That's the second scramble of the day with at least four sorties.
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There goes two more. Busy day here.
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Your article claimed 37 intercepts in the Barents region in 2011. That may very well be the case, but that is only a small part of the RNoAF's area of control. We even cover Iceland these days since they've become a Norwegian protectorate. In addition to the approx. 400 scrambles in Norway the RNoAF flew 615 missions over Libya between 24 Mars and 31 July 2011. And our P-3s flew 122 missions "against" the Russians, monitoring their activities and testing their response times. The game hasn't changed much since the Cold War...
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There goes the fourth pair. I don't think they have many aircraft left on standby now; must be real busy on the ground over there.
We've been doing ground exercises near the Russian border the last few days. Maybe the Russians are responding...
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Ah... NATO ground exercise Noble Ledger (15-24 september) started today with 13 000 NATO troops arriving. No wonder the Russians are nosing around...
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Bit like Europe with its right wing nationalist political parties :)
Everyone gets armbands
and 3d glasses
Zack is in the back room
Taking those night classes
I thought you were a BNP member... or at least Ben is.
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Heh... Just remember reading an article that we peed-off the Indians last year with our "snooping" around their carrier off the Russian coast.
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/ins-vikramaditya-was-spied-upon-by-nato-aircraft-and-ship-last-year/1/325335.html
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Airspace violations are nothing new.
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Everyone gets armbands
and 3d glasses
Zack is in the back room
Taking those night classes
I thought you were a BNP member... or at least Ben is.
Yes Ben was very right wing but being a Border Colly/Poodle cross meant he could never be trully Britsh, Poodles are French you see :cry
The PM has anounced £3.5 billion contract to build tanks and is going to advise NATO to increase its spending on arms by 28%, funny that :)
I wonder if it dollors or Euros :rofl
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Yes Ben was very right wing but being a Border Colly/Poodle cross meant he could never be trully Britsh, Poodles are French you see :cry
The PM has anounced £3.5 billion contract to build tanks and is going to advise NATO to increase its spending on arms by 28%, funny that :)
I wonder if it dollors or Euros :rofl
So, you mean to tell me that, in today's Britain, you can't be truly right wing if you're not fully British? I guess that makes sense. Therein likely lies their problems at the polls.
As for Border Collies, my very first doggy was a BC. He was a clever dog. His main problem was a tendency to herd anything - including small children - into a neat little pack my means of nipping at their ankles. THis nearly landed him in hot water after he put a small bruise on the ankle of a neighbor's child. This wouldn't have been a problem, necessarily, but for the fact that this neighbor child's father was a TRIAL LAWYER, who shortly warned my father that lawsuits and the putting down of our beloved BC would follow should anything of this type happen EVER AGAIN. Of course, we did the only logical thing, PNG'ing that kid away from any proximity with our beloved pooch ever again.
Later, we'd replace dear old Tuxedo with a set of much larger (and much fiercer) malemutes. With them, the danger was never an innocent nip. Of course, dead animals would turn up in the yard from time to time, some of which they'd happily play tug-of-war with.
In any case, a good BNP dog would be something like that (or any of the other big fierce breeds - perhaps they could try Joe Stalin's black Russian Terriers), just to keep things in line, if you follow. Sufficiently trained, such beasts could be very useful. Ours were never so orderly. If Ben were, perhaps, to "butch it up" a bit, he might get his membership card (despite the issue with Bona Fides), is all I'm saying. He could closet his poodle side, change his hair, keep his "extracurricular activities" out of the public eye. just talk with him. I mean; he's getting on a bit. Why does he still feel such a need to be so flamboyant about things?
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political dogs and Russia starting WW3 all in one thread. Awesome.
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This 11 missing airliners from Tripoli International could be a real threat not the Russians; its believed the jihadist from Libya are cooperating with ISIS;
new ISIS Airline offering cheap one way flights to Western destination?! :pray
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/09/04/libya-missing-planes-sept-11/15059169/
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This 11 missing airliners from Tripoli International could be a real threat not the Russians; its believed the jihadist from Libya are cooperating with ISIS;
new ISIS Airline offering cheap one way flights to Western destination?! :pray
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/09/04/libya-missing-planes-sept-11/15059169/
That looks bad.
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political dogs and Russia starting WW3 all in one thread. Awesome.
The Russians are bit confused why people are complaing, the US and Europe have been having military engagments all over the world "Iraq" and "Afganistan" are a pretty recent examples.
Its an outrage, its not if the Ukraine is near Russia or has any links to them :old:
The Ukranians are a very liberal people, from what i have read, during WWII.
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Russia helped liberate Finland in the 1800's sort of. :bolt:
Helsinki still has a Russian throne there. Seen on the history channel so it must be true. :D
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Yeah, Ukrainian "liberals" were front and center in Vlasov's army. Hitler was a vegan, after all. What a mistake... that Yalta and Potsdam business, after all. Stalingrad = the death of Western Civ...
I don't know... I can see both sides of this one. I mean, the ukraine has been under the boot for quite some time. If the boys want another go rolling in the sweat of "the enemy", I guess they're going to have it. NATO isn't going to intervene, especially given that no European has fired a gun in a military engagement since the last time they were "pacified" (with a couple of minor exceptions in LePen's IndoChina or in the Falklands) and given that the US is overestended and functionally broke. That's the Realpolitik of the matter.
As for the "right" and "wrong" of it, I can think of nothing less relevant. I mean, how many divisions do those two categories possess?
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This 11 missing airliners from Tripoli International could be a real threat not the Russians; its believed the jihadist from Libya are cooperating with ISIS;
new ISIS Airline offering cheap one way flights to Western destination?! :pray
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/09/04/libya-missing-planes-sept-11/15059169/
They are starting an airline. Why assume the worst? Perhaps ISIS just want cheap flights to vacation resorts. Even a hard line fundamentalist nutjob needs a vacation sometimes. Chopping heads is hard labor and ISIS members have difficulties with getting on normal flights. Try to find the best in people - not everyone is a terrorist... all the time.
"Air Islam"?
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Nato had nothing to do with the Falklands :old:
The US is functionally broke?
Gibberish :rofl
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Nato had nothing to do with the Falklands :old:
The US is functionally broke?
Gibberish :rofl
Yes, I'm aware that the Falklands was purely a UK effort. I'm surprised you didn't want to clarify the same distinction with French IndoChina... then again, I'm not. Nobody was conflating NATO with the Falklands. The point stands. To the vast majority of those in the Eu, marching and shooting is just so passe.
As for the last, Zack, you should know better. In accounting, it'd be under the category "unfunded liabilities"... look into it - then match it against the nation's estimated wealth. You can do simple math, right? Think of it like a pie. The crust to be filled demands a full colon, but what if you've only eaten three chimis instead of the six required to brew a golden blatz? Well, you could go the "currency inflation" route and dilute your chimis by slugging down a half gallon of water, but that would make each slice of pie quite runny and doesn't really fool anyone.
BTW, that's not to say there isn't vast private wealth in the US - but much of it isn't liquid and, at the scale of confiscation implied by that to which I refer above, much of it wouldn't even be marketable, if you follow. Don't confuse the two.
Other than that, I'll say no more.
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NATO isn't going to intervene, especially given that no European has fired a gun in a military engagement since the last time they were "pacified" (with a couple of minor exceptions in LePen's IndoChina or in the Falklands) and given that the US is overestended and functionally broke.
I mean yeah as long as you ignore all of the war and genocide that has happened in Europe since WWII
Then again I could also ignore the wars that the United States was involved in and say that no American has fired a gun in a military engagement since WWII either I suppose
(https://aipetcher.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/jna-troops-in-slovenia.jpg)
Maybe this one's more familiar...
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_MpnA9si4GMs/TT2J3TJY9PI/AAAAAAAAIbU/Vv5muU27EYI/s1600/bosnia.jpg)
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... no European has fired a gun in a military engagement since the last time they were "pacified" (with a couple of minor exceptions in LePen's IndoChina or in the Falklands) ...
:huh
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If you want IMF loans you have to be willing to to the line :rofl
Oh by the way the Ukrainians are thinking about coming to an arrangment with the nasty Russians :)
Have the North Koreans invaded yet?. :rofl
PJ is ovisously Canadian and also a dog fetler :rofl
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I mean yeah as long as you ignore all of the war and genocide that has happened in Europe since WWII
Then again I could also ignore the wars that the United States was involved in and say that no American has fired a gun in a military engagement since WWII either I suppose
(https://aipetcher.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/jna-troops-in-slovenia.jpg)
Maybe this one's more familiar...
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_MpnA9si4GMs/TT2J3TJY9PI/AAAAAAAAIbU/Vv5muU27EYI/s1600/bosnia.jpg)
The former Yugoslavia and uk involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan? Surely you jest. Yeah, there were small contingents of many nations involved in the latter -even Dutch and Germans... And yes, there was Uk and French involvement in suez back in the 50's. however, any comparison of these small-scale events and the far more involved affairs that occurred in Europe prior to 1945 is silly from a scale standpoint.
Just run the numbers. You tell me counts of Europeans involved in any of these laughable ( unless you're there as an individual) events... 30000 or so Uk personnel involved in Iraq? With no civilian involvement and hardly any awareness..? Yeah, how does that compare? What? 200 Dutch and 6 F-16s or so? How does that compare to a full invasion and occupation? "Genocide" in Yugoslavia? Let's see, was there even a common market uniform involved in perpetrating that?
No sense of scale... By this definition, the us invasion of Grenada or Panama was D-Day part II. :rolleyes:
To be fair: yes, it is obviously an exaggeration to say "no Euro has fired...etc.", and I even gave some exceptions when I said it. But, please -to compare the prewar and postwar bellicosity of Europe is to compare a continent roiled by mass invasion, war, and violence to.a relatively pacific place -and that point is indisputable on any comparison that comprehends relative scale.
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If you want IMF loans you have to be willing to to the line :rofl
Oh by the way the Ukrainians are thinking about coming to an arrangment with the nasty Russians :)
Have the North Koreans invaded yet?. :rofl
PJ is ovisously Canadian and also a dog fetler :rofl
So who do you think writes those loans? ... And them turns around and finances daily operations by writing treasuries and selling it like cheap wallpaper to any sucker that'll buy 'em? Oh, I forgot, the IMF has its own GDP..., being an highly productive and vibrant marketer of goods and services :D
As for the Ukies, wouldn't you "see sense" too? "I got my mind right, boss". The arrangement is the same that anyone makes when their nuts are in a vise.
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...however, any comparison of these small-scale events and the far more involved affairs that occurred in Europe prior to 1945 is silly from a scale standpoint.
Please enlighten me as to what military action the US has taken since 1945 that can compare to WWII in Europe without it being "silly from a scale standpoint".
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Iraq and Vietnam both.... Neither were as pervasive to the civilians but both are on similar scales, certainly, in terms of metrics like tonnage of bombs, even geographical scale. While the numbers of men in uniform are fractional, consider that, increasingly, the us logistic train is contracted privately. In 1945, most of that train was uniformed but noncombatant.
Also, let's remember why I made the point in the first place -(it wasn't to somehow call the eu a bunch of sissies, which seems to be how people are trying to twist it) and contradict me here if you disagree: neither the US nor Europe is going to got to the wall for the Ukraine... Ie, none of us "Westerners" ( wir Sind alle...) are up for that.
That's where we got off onto this digression. Disagree? How many Norwegians are willing to die for old Mother Uke ( rhymes with puke).
Yeah, me neither... And Vlad knows it.
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Really? Bombing some pajamas clad rice farmers in the jungle is comparable to WWII in Europe. Really?!
That's the definition of "silly" right there.
And yes, if Russia actually commits to a large scale invasion of Ukraine, Europe cannot stand idly by. If Kuwait was unacceptable, if South Korea was unacceptable, so would Ukraine. However, Russia is not going to conquer the Ukraine. At most Putin will try for a land bridge to the Crimean peninsula, but even that is a stretch. Russia will annex the rebel territories, or they will become mini-satellite-states to Moscow. Either way Putin gets the oil and gas there. Putin doesn't need to hold a vast territory like Ukraine with a hostile population. Nobody wants that.
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Really? Bombing some pajamas clad rice farmers in the jungle is comparable to WWII in Europe. Really?!
That's the definition of "silly" right there.
And yes, if Russia actually commits to a large scale invasion of Ukraine, Europe cannot stand idly by. If Kuwait was unacceptable, if South Korea was unacceptable, so would Ukraine. However, Russia is not going to conquer the Ukraine. At most Putin will try for a land bridge to the Crimean peninsula, but even that is a stretch. Russia will annex the rebel territories, or they will become mini-satellite-states to Moscow. Either way Putin gets the oil and gas there. Putin doesn't need to hold a vast territory like Ukraine with a hostile population. Nobody wants that.
GScholz, Apparently you are unaware that there were literally hundreds of thousands of American soldiers on the ground in Vietnam - from 1965 (the escalation of in-country military personnel resulted in approximately HALF A MILLION US Servicemen stationed in Vietnam) until 1973, there was a large number of US ground combatants there. More tonnage was dropped on N. Vietnam than was dropped on Europe in WWII. N. Vietnamese air defenses were quire advanced. 58,000 US servicement died there - approx 20% of our us deaths in WWII. That is NOT an order of magnitude difference. The duration of the conflict was, dependent on definition, arguably about 13 years.
There was a lot more to it than merely dropping a few bombs on some rice paddies. Try 4 million total civilian casualties... and 2 million military casualties. These are big numbers - especially given that there were only 2 primary combatants.
As for Russia invading the ukraine, it already happened and Europe did stand idly by. The Crimea is the throat of the Ukraine and Putin already seized it. Europe and the us did nothing and will continue to do nothing. Otherwise, yes, I agree, the plan will be to annex the "rebel" territories. Taking the rest is unnecessary.
Meanwhile, your stance appears a bit self-confused. If you agree that the Crimea and those states likely to be "annexed" (Czechoslovakia, anyone?) are those of value and if you accept that the assimilation of those into Russia is more or less a done deal, then what, exactly, is unpalateable to Europe? As I state, you, us, the rest of the common market have already written this thing off. Why maintain this farcical stance that somehow there is the possibility of something being perpetrated by Russia in the ukraine that would actually shake Europe and/or NATO into action?
Remember my reference to Stalingrad? Leaving aside the whole political package that rides with Time's Man of the last Century, I'm going to be entirely heretical to the Western orthodoxy here: the West, longer term, reaped real benefit from having an industrial/powerful state between it and the resurgent East. The drawbacks of the vacuum left in the absence of such a state is not only becoming painfully apparent now but will make itself felt to greater extent later.
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Surely you jest. Yeah, there were small contingents of many nations involved in the latter -even With no civilian involvement and hardly any awareness..? Yeah, how does that compare? What? 200 Dutch and 6 F-16s or so? How does that compare to a full invasion and occupation? "Genocide" in Yugoslavia? Let's see, was there even a common market uniform involved in perpetrating that?
continent roiled by mass invasion, war, and violence to.a relatively pacific place -and that point is indisputable on any comparison that comprehends relative scale.
"hardly any awareness"
:rofl
Your ignorance doesn't count for 'hardly any awareness'. The UK, for example, deployed about a third as many troops in Iraq initially as the United States, which is a pretty significant figure for a country about a third the size of the US population wise. I don't know why one should think that their population isn't constantly embroiled in debate (and highly 'aware') over this... unless you're talking about awareness in the United States, which, if things only count if there's an awareness of them in the US, then nothing ever in the history of Western Civilization has happened.
"was there a common market uniform involved in perpetrating that"
I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean. Are you downplaying the genocide because it wasn't committed by a single centralized government? "It's only genocide if it's politically convenient for it to be genocide"- I'll keep that in mind.
The breakup of Yugoslavia was a large conflict (was it WWII? no. somehow very few wars compare in size or scope to what was by a ridiculous margin the largest and bloodiest conflict in all of human history) which had double the casualties that the invasion of Afghanistan did and similar figures to Iraq depending on the estimates. The only reason it seems insignificant to you is because the US played a minor role, and that role is not well publicized because we got diddlyed up
(I don't think Europe will do anything about Russia though, just to clarify)
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PJ_Godzilla, so in other words nowhere near the figures for WWII except for tonnage dropped, which is a function of technological advancement, not superiority of numbers. Comparing it to ALL of WWII in Europe is even more ridiculous considering that Germany alone had one hundred times more military deaths than your US figure for the VN war. More soldiers, tanks, planes and other vehicles were committed to single battles on the Eastern Front that the US fielded during the entire VN war! The Soviets alone lost 83,000 tanks and 146,000 aircraft! You simply can't have even an inkling of the scale of WWII in Europe if you think ANY other conflict in all of history compares to it!
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"hardly any awareness"
:rofl
Your ignorance doesn't count for 'hardly any awareness'. The UK, for example, deployed about a third as many troops in Iraq initially as the United States, which is a pretty significant figure for a country about a third the size of the US population wise. I don't know why one should think that their population isn't constantly embroiled in debate (and highly 'aware') over this... unless you're talking about awareness in the United States, which, if things only count if there's an awareness of them in the US, then nothing ever in the history of Western Civilization has happened.
"was there a common market uniform involved in perpetrating that"
I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean. Are you downplaying the genocide because it wasn't committed by a single centralized government? "It's only genocide if it's politically convenient for it to be genocide"- I'll keep that in mind.
The breakup of Yugoslavia was a large conflict (was it WWII? no. somehow very few wars compare in size or scope to what was by a ridiculous margin the largest and bloodiest conflict in all of human history) which had double the casualties that the invasion of Afghanistan did and similar figures to Iraq depending on the estimates. The only reason it seems insignificant to you is because the US played a minor role, and that role is not well publicized because we got diddlyed up
(I don't think Europe will do anything about Russia though, just to clarify)
Okay, then we've reached the same bottom line. The rest strikes me as near agreement separated by a common language.
As for the "awareness" issue, I give the British public no more or less credit than the US public. understand, there are about 40% of the population in either nation that actually bothers to read the news. But, the point was, compare the "awareness" level of either public regarding the proportional involvement of their troops in Iraq (about 3:1 - actually sounds reasonable, though I think it's actually more like 5:1 - we should recheck those ) to the "awareness" level of either public in WWII. Do you disagree that survivors of the London Blitz were more aware of what the war meant to them than would be bystanders? THAT's what I meant.
As for the Yugoslav issue, no, I DON'T disregard genocide. THe point here is that we're talking about European State policy. Much of the Yugoslav "action" was perpetrated by something that blurs the line between state policy and the policies of loosley organized groups with murderous agendas. Those states that stepped in to quell the violence were conducting something that more resembled a police action, albeit a fairly bloody one. I don't think US ground personnel were even involved, though I'm painfully aware that Uk troops were there on the ground. In this sense, too, Yugoslavia differs from the Iraq war. understand, what we would be talking about in conflict with Russia is much more like the second round of the Iraq war than it would be like Yugoslavia.
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PJ_Godzilla, so in other words nowhere near the figures for WWII except for tonnage dropped, which is a function of technological advancement, not superiority of numbers. Comparing it to ALL of WWII in Europe is even more ridiculous considering that Germany alone had one hundred times more military deaths than your US figure for the VN war. More soldiers, tanks, planes and other vehicles were committed to single battles on the Eastern Front that the US fielded during the entire VN war! The Soviets alone lost 83,000 tanks and 146,000 aircraft! You simply can't have even an inkling of the scale of WWII in Europe if you think ANY other conflict in all of history compares to it!
That's why I compared it to Us casualties. Understand, casualties are also a function of technological advancement. As, IIRC, the author of Frontsoldaten said, over time he learned that the German maxim, "sweat saves blood" had been replaced with the American bromide, "equipment saves men". So, 58000 US casualties is about 1/6th of US WWII casualties, like for like. As I state, there were only two combatants, here, save for a few small contingents of, for example, ROKs and Australians. So, it is entirley plausible to state that, for the Us military, Vietnam was of similar scale to WWII - ie, not separated by orders of magnitude. No, I will NOT argue that Vietnam, scalewise in total, approaches WWII, but I will argue that it does from the perspective of US military involvement (albeit at a fraction - but a significant one).
However, your focus on this point is a little unnexcessary anyway, since it only served a broader argument - one which you seem to have vacated to argue about this "angels on the head of a pin" item.
Are you somehow disagreeing that Nato and/or some coalition of Eu states are actually going to take on Russia? Are you arguing that modern Europe has the appetite for war that old Europe did?
THat's the forest. Why are you so focused on the one tree - which is entirely plausible in terms of military experience (from the perspective of the war machine itself - where it counts) anyway? Hell, I could use the scale argument regarding Germany the other way anyhow to buttress my point earlier about the pacification of Europe: all the guys who had the burning desire to live the dream (of taking that panzer ride out on the steppes) are long since dead or 'reeducated".
Understand, this isn't about you or Motherland or me. But postwar Europe isn't that same as prewar Europe - and even if you choose to disagree with my argument about the level of recent activity by respective Western militaries, I don't think you can successfully argue that anyone in Europe in their right mind wants a war with Russia or would support one, given a choice. Prewar, it seems to have been entirely plausible. Why do I say that? Because it happened. As for the US, it's also not going to happen, and for only slightly different reasons, some of which are shared.
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If so then the UK should also only be compared to its sole contributions in WWII which make the Falklands and Iraq just as "comparable" as your example. To say nothing of my country's postwar involvements...
I still think you have the wrong impression of Europe; it is a heavily armed place. Only in naval power does the USA out match the EU25 nations, and that's not counting all the non-EU NATO countries. More combat aircraft, tanks and personnel in active service, and a LOT more trained reservists. Europe/NATO is more than a match for Russia conventionally, the only issue is the will to use it. I think Europe and indeed the rest of the world will not stand idly by if Russia conquers the Ukraine. However, Russia won't conquer Ukraine; Russia will only annex or help "liberate" the contested areas in eastern Ukraine, and the legality of that is debatable since self determination is a major human right. The majority of the people in Crimea wanted Crimea to re-join Russia. The majority of the people in the contested areas in eastern Ukraine want to separate from Ukraine. These people are predominantly of Russian ethnicity. Is it wrong for Russia to support these people?
Tell you what... Here the other day I read in VG online (a national newspaper here) an article on how the Russians were supplying the Ukrainian separatists with weapons and supplies. Right next to that article was another (more positively worded) article of how Norwegian C-130s were part of the NATO effort of supplying the Kurdish rebels/separatists in northern Iraq with arms and supplies. I found that ironic.
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If so then the UK should also only be compared to its sole contributions in WWII which make the Falklands and Iraq just as "comparable" as your example. To say nothing of my country's postwar involvements...
I still think you have the wrong impression of Europe; it is a heavily armed place. Only in naval power does the USA out match the EU25 nations, and that's not counting all the non-EU NATO countries. More combat aircraft, tanks and personnel in active service, and a LOT more trained reservists. Europe/NATO is more than a match for Russia conventionally, the only issue is the will to use it. I think Europe and indeed the rest of the world will not stand idly by if Russia conquers the Ukraine. However, Russia won't conquer Ukraine; Russia will only annex or help "liberate" the contested areas in eastern Ukraine, and the legality of that is debatable since self determination is a major human right. The majority of the people in Crimea wanted Crimea to re-join Russia. The majority of the people in the contested areas in eastern Ukraine want to separate from Ukraine. These people are predominantly of Russian ethnicity. Is it wrong for Russia to support these people?
Tell you what... Here the other day I read in VG online (a national newspaper here) an article on how the Russians were supplying the Ukrainian separatists with weapons and supplies. Right next to that article was another (more positively worded) article of how Norwegian C-130s were part of the NATO effort of supplying the Kurdish rebels/separatists in northern Iraq with arms and supplies. I found that ironic.
Honestly, Scholz, I want to believe that your version of Europe is the truer version. And you're trading dialog with a guy who loves to read Jane's publications, so I'm entirely aware of the technical capability and raw capacity of the European war machine. That's not what I doubt.
What I doubt is the political will to use any of it - and I have similar doubts about the US. It'd be one thing if survival were on the line, but this last will probably be more determined by demography (which is destiny) and this too does not bode well (say no more).
as for your argument about the British, yes, they're exceptional. They also are a bit of a pariah, having not accepted the same level of commonization, as is, I note, Norway (whose economic fundamentals are, I think, exceptional - well worth investment via etf, for example)
BTW, I find your example form the press quite telling. The Russians fully understand that they must not wake Europe up by doing anything outright barbaric. But, regardless, they will have their way - while we're off doing the Greek equivalent of invading Syracuse (see, eg, Alcibiades - thwe parallel to the modern west is stunning).
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This is "how many angels on a pin head" discussions :rofl
Vietnam was just as important as WWII
The Commies knew how far the West was willing to go :)
The Ukraine problem has already been sorted, this gibberish on the TV is for you lot, so you stock up on beans and tin foil hats :rofl
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This is "how many angels on a pin head" discussions :rofl
Vietnam was just as important as WWII
The Commies knew how far the West was willing to go :)
The Ukraine problem has already been sorted, this gibberish on the TV is for you lot, so you stock up on beans and tin foil hats :rofl
Now THAT'S funny. Why? Because while I'm rolling over to go back to my "sleeping West" posture, I figured you'd already have the Merlin warming up out on the tarmac... but not for the 'kraine which, as you rightfully note, is a fait accompli, but instead to firebomb my house for my artful defense on the utility of Time's Man of the Last Century who, despite what some might have you believe, was an entirely ordinary autocrat viewed against the long-term sweep of history (albeit one who still served a couple of useful purposes).
I like a bit of gibberish as a garnish. It's very good with poultry or a nice meat pie. In fact, at Thanksgiving, we usually get a Turkey with gibberish.
To which Zack replied, "go eat an American Hot Dog :old:"
"Then enjoy some <eeeeech> baseball :old:"
"perhaps then you can watch some Honey-boo-boo reruns on your American cable TV. Her mother is the epitome of the ideal colonist, is she not? :old:"
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If it were not for Churchill, Adolf one ball would have been a god :old:
And America would have been a third world country
He was half colonial as well :confused:
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If it were not for Churchill, Adolf one ball would have been a god :old:
And America would have been a third world country
He was half colonial as well :confused:
He was a one-nut?
That explains why he waited so long to tie the knot with Eva... he was "saving up".
Who was half-colonial? Surely you don't mean ... Winnie... for his time there in the land of Boerdom (it made for good reading)? Or perhaps you're thinking of his affinity for Nascar, Taco Bell, and portly women...?
Old one-nut was a Vegan (that usually means no fun and a bad date - can't eat pork, for example- , at least w/r the women I've known) and a good sprinter. How do I know this? Let's just say he was good at finishing a race. I also note that, like Batman, he could enter a convenience store without... ah, never mind...
With apologies to all and sundry. I'm no fan of one-nut. I'm just saying, what you've got left is sort of vacuum-y, demonstrating , once again, that there's an opportunity cost to everything.
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:rofl
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Zack was tickled. I am gratified and can die a happy man.
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But, see here, Zack, I've got one more issue with you.
It's about that tower of Babel just to your south. Last I was there, some rather cornholish entity had decorated a place of honor with a big blue chicken. This will never do, of course. I told one Barry Clarke thatI was personally offended. After all, I said, HMS Victory took real damage and the Duke himself was killed, his dying words uttered... "no... more... pie...". A place to commemorate such a thing is no place to stand a chicken.
Barry sort of took this in stride. He too didn't "like it" but he too was foreign to the place since he lives closer to Dunton, I want to say somewhere on the coast. He changed the subject, apparently finding the whole thing distasteful and instead told me a story about a relativ ewho had landed his damged Yak-9T on the beach some time during the big show there in late '40. Of course, he was court-martialed for not bailing, the shortage of pilots being so dire that they were instructed to dump crippled aircraft. The prosecutor reconsidered when he realized that punishment would also take the pilot out of the fray.
You need to hold these bluudy sootherners more accountable.
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Yes indeed kiss me hardy :old:
Bruv is one of those southern softies who call a sausage a savaloy :cry
I would venture south but would not know what to say when i got their as they are talk gibberish and eat whelks mussels and jellied eels, handsum!
I'll ave you butler!
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Honestly, Scholz, I want to believe that your version of Europe is the truer version. And you're trading dialog with a guy who loves to read Jane's publications, so I'm entirely aware of the technical capability and raw capacity of the European war machine. That's not what I doubt.
What I doubt is the political will to use any of it - and I have similar doubts about the US. It'd be one thing if survival were on the line, but this last will probably be more determined by demography (which is destiny) and this too does not bode well (say no more).
as for your argument about the British, yes, they're exceptional. They also are a bit of a pariah, having not accepted the same level of commonization, as is, I note, Norway (whose economic fundamentals are, I think, exceptional - well worth investment via etf, for example)
BTW, I find your example form the press quite telling. The Russians fully understand that they must not wake Europe up by doing anything outright barbaric. But, regardless, they will have their way - while we're off doing the Greek equivalent of invading Syracuse (see, eg, Alcibiades - thwe parallel to the modern west is stunning).
I can agree to that... But just to make something very clear, while Europe has become a very peaceful place that doesn't mean the European nations are not willing to use military force when necessary. Even outside Europe. My country is very small with a total population half the size of New York. Yet this tiny country has been involved in more than 40 military operations since WWII, mostly under the UN or NATO banner. We have more than 120,000 registered veterans from the last 10-20 years of conflicts, mostly from the wars in Afghanistan and the Balkans... That's about 3% of our entire population; about one in every 25 Norwegians currently living is a war veteran. I'm one of them.
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I'm one of them.
Aah so that's why you're always angry. PTSD? :devil
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Me angry? Never! How can anyone look at my avatar and think I'm angry? ;)
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Me angry? Never! How can anyone look at my avatar and think I'm angry? ;)
That person is very glad from outside but has hidden anger inside as is reflected by his actions in the movie.
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Well yeah... After all he's an actor. They're all conflicted and mad...
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Well yeah... After all he's an actor. They're all conflicted and mad...
I was talking about his character in the movie. The actor himself seems very cool. Speaks what, 7 languages fluently?
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I know. I was being sarcastic. ;)
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I can agree to that... But just to make something very clear, while Europe has become a very peaceful place that doesn't mean the European nations are not willing to use military force when necessary. Even outside Europe. My country is very small with a total population half the size of New York. Yet this tiny country has been involved in more than 40 military operations since WWII, mostly under the UN or NATO banner. We have more than 120,000 registered veterans from the last 10-20 years of conflicts, mostly from the wars in Afghanistan and the Balkans... That's about 3% of our entire population; about one in every 25 Norwegians currently living is a war veteran. I'm one of them.
As I say, Scholz, having spent a significant amount of my time there on the continent in 10 different nations, I sincerely hope that Europe will take any measures necessary to preserve European culture and autonomy; a thing I think worth saving. As for your service, you have my once-removed gratitude. I'm skeptical, still, that a Norwegian vet is representative of the body politic in a place like France or Italy.
Anecdotally, one of the things I loved about Iceland was how exceptional I think it is that, for example, some woman (who wasn't thinking) can leave her purse on a bus and come back two hours later to find it exactly where she left it... Vikings...
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Iceland?
Rudest and most bad mannered people i have ever met :old:
Considering their main output is steam and fish its very strange :old:
Plane chartered by US military has been forced down for being in Iranian air, ITS WAR!
Or is it :rofl
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Iceland?
Rudest and most bad mannered people i have ever met :old:
Considering their main output is steam and fish its very strange :old:
Plane chartered by US military has been forced down for being in Iranian air, ITS WAR!
Or is it :rofl
Surely, zack, you must've done something to tick them off... Perhaps you exhibited an emotion.
I knew an Icelander who loved his wife so much that he almost told her.
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Surely, zack, you must've done something to tick them off... Perhaps you exhibited an emotion.
I knew an Icelander who loved his wife so much that he almost told her.
:rofl
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As I say, Scholz, having spent a significant amount of my time there on the continent in 10 different nations, I sincerely hope that Europe will take any measures necessary to preserve European culture and autonomy; a thing I think worth saving. As for your service, you have my once-removed gratitude. I'm skeptical, still, that a Norwegian vet is representative of the body politic in a place like France or Italy.
Anecdotally, one of the things I loved about Iceland was how exceptional I think it is that, for example, some woman (who wasn't thinking) can leave her purse on a bus and come back two hours later to find it exactly where she left it... Vikings...
Yeah well the French have a horrible government at the moment (IMHO), however they do still have 36,000 troops on various foreign operations, mostly in Africa. Cozy places like Mali, the Ivory Coast and the Central African Republic where they're fighting Al-Qaeda groups and other factions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMl-O_aP43s
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Yeah well the French have a horrible government at the moment (IMHO), however they do still have 36,000 troops on various foreign operations, mostly in Africa. Cozy places like Mali, the Ivory Coast and the Central African Republic where they're fighting Al-Qaeda groups and other factions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMl-O_aP43s
Agreed on the French government ( also IMHO). Perhaps part of the reason I discount them is their break with NATO and their general history w/r all things military ( with that one notable exception). They have sizable forces and serious nuclear capability, but why do I always assume that, were there to be a conventional existential threat to Europe, they'd shun involvement, much less coordination..? I always assume they're compromised internally but that's perhaps incorrect. It was certainly evident during their involvement in IndoChina but the game is a little different now.
As a side note, why is it that all former French colonies seem to be, uh, " troubled"? Yet you look at former British colonies and, with a few exceptions, they're actually pretty good places. I have my own theory, and it has to do with differing models of justice - but that's a topic for a thread sure to be locked.
This one probably should've been too, except everybody involved here is adult enough not be stupid about our interactions.
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The French are.. well... French. They did not so much withdraw from the military part of NATO as keep one foot in and the other out. They were not bound by any treaty to help other NATO members, but chose to do so when they think it is right for them. They've participated in many if not most NATO missions including the one I was in, in the Balkans. Since 2009 France has rejoined all the NATO organizations except from nuclear deterrent, where they remain independent.
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The French are.. well... French. They did not so much withdraw from the military part of NATO as keep one foot in and the other out. They were not bound by any treaty to help other NATO members, but chose to do so when they think it is right for them. They've participated in many if not most NATO missions including the one I was in, in the Balkans. Since 2009 France has rejoined all the NATO organizations except from nuclear deterrent, where they remain independent.
Unbound... Yes. And when it's right for them is when they come out on the winning side without too much loss of blood and treasure. Perhaps they'd some reason to be cautious of cast-in-stone alliance commitments -and this would be understandable.
The internal compromise in IndoChina and w/r the Soviets I think had more to do with their labor unions -there were tales of weapons deliberately misbuilt...
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The US dismantled the European colonies after the senconf war and it all went to poo :old:
Then they dismantle or the moody regimes that they backed and now we have a bigger pile of poo :rofl
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My nation has been flying over nations via planes and satellites before most of your parents were born. (and they never ever ever asked permission nor has anything they saw or found been declassified)
Don't even get me started on the secret spy satellites with rail guns, nukes & lasers. Way too syfy for the norm, such crazy talk.
Shut up, were winning. :rock
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_A-12
Government had a entire fleet, as well as fleet of top secret pilots to fly them and no one knew shyte! Good day to you sir's. :cheers:
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I met someone who as supplying parts for a nuclear cannon to Saddam Hussines lot :rofl
It was all over the papers years ago, he was the most odious person you could meet :)
He had a stainless steel boat that was bigger than a house :rofl
All his money had been locked by the governement, he said it did not matter because he would get it back when the government needed him again :rofl
The funnisest part of it is its true :)
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I met someone who as supplying parts for a nuclear cannon to Saddam Hussines lot :rofl
It was all over the papers years ago, he was the most odious person you could meet :)
He had a stainless steel boat that was bigger than a house :rofl
All his money had been locked by the governement, he said it did not matter because he would get it back when the government needed him again :rofl
The funnisest part of it is its true :)
I hope he didn't try to take his stainless steel boat in saltwater. Chloride stress corrosion cracking and such.....
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Chloride is in the sea?
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Actually, zack, in your way, you're on to something with your point about colonies. Consider Portuguese efforts to maintain theirs... Guess who funded their opposition?
As for the chloride, it's that silly Na-Cl ionization thing...
A-12? A quaint old bird, courtesy of Kelly Johnson, another former UM aero guy. Thing was, it was indeed a tough intercept.
Not sure who "we" is...
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Actually, zack, in your way, you're on to something with your point about colonies. Consider Portuguese efforts to maintain theirs... Guess who funded their opposition?
As for the chloride, it's that silly Na-Cl ionization thing...
A-12? A quaint old bird, courtesy of Kelly Johnson, another former UM aero guy. Thing was, it was indeed a tough intercept.
Not sure who "we" is...
That's why ships and boats have zinc plating attached.
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It had big blocks on the hull that looked like lead :)
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That's why ships and boats have zinc plating attached.
Yep, the sacrificial anode... It's also why we galvanize autos.
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Well yeah... After all he's an actor. They're all conflicted and mad...
bs that isnt an actor that is you in your avatar. you posted a picture of yourself already, remember :).
semp