Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Scca on July 09, 2008, 01:43:23 PM
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I decided to get in a few sorties this morning. I ran into a all to common situation that honestly confuses me.
The set up...
There was a 109-K4 orbiting the base I took off from, I was in a Spit IX. After several blown BNZ passes, I had equalized the E states, so he decides to run away. Not wanting to waste time, I turned back to engage a P-38. I dispatched him, and low and behold the K4 is back. A few more blown passes, and he's gone again. I take care of a 190, then land.
I re-up from a further back base to get alt on the K4 trying to give him some of his medicine. No K4 to be found, so I start playing with a co-alt spit, and much to my surprise, the K4 is back, he blows a few passes again and extends, I go back to the spit only to have the K4 land a 30 on my wing.
Pickers and runners, please help me understand what is the fascination with this style of game play. Maybe it's a "your $15" thing, but what possible enjoyment can someone get from only engaging cons when they are already engaged and running from a 1v1 when you have an E advantage? To me, 90% of the fun is the fight, not the winner. I am so confused..
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He was scared he might die and not get another cartoon airplane?
That's my only guess :)
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because thats all they can do. and when they pick you off of someones 6, they think they helped there teammate. :lol :lol
makes em feel like a man. :lol :lol
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Although i agree with a lot of what you say sometimes their is a need for it ,Like when i see 5 spits on the deck waiting to gang someone and im in a pony at 13 k im picking all day long (im not turn fighting em).But people that do nothing but pick are just scared skilless dweebs :aok
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Pickers and runners, please help me understand what is the fascination with this style of game play. Maybe it's a "your $15" thing, but what possible enjoyment can someone get from only engaging cons when they are already engaged and running from a 1v1 when you have an E advantage? To me, 90% of the fun is the fight, not the winner. I am so confused..
Hmmm, now I'm confused (not really an unusual state)....
You meet 4 opponents and dispatch 3 of them. The fourth obviously lacks the skill (or will) to give your spit a decent fight and refuses to commit. Hmm, 75% of your opponents fought and lost....and you want to come to the bbs and complain about the 1 guy that wouldn't let you kill him?
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It wasn't that he wouldn't let him kill him, it's the way they go about not wanting to be killed, and then come to kill a pilot, they otherwise couldn't, with a pick.
Really, I think it stems from lack of basic training now days. Newbies who see alt monkeys land kills naturally go with a run90 or pee51.
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Hmmm, now I'm confused (not really an unusual state)....
You meet 4 opponents and dispatch 3 of them. The fourth obviously lacks the skill (or will) to give your spit a decent fight and refuses to commit. Hmm, 75% of your opponents fought and lost....and you want to come to the bbs and complain about the 1 guy that wouldn't let you kill him?
i think its the fact that at first the K4 had the advantage but never stayed and only came back when he was engaged with someone else.
and besides he is not complaining he is "confused" as to why they fly like that when this is only a game and you don't really die.
i personally think its funny when people try to fly AH like its real life, i have allot of respect for Eric Hartman but his flying style has no place in AH, for here you get all the planes you want for 15 bucks a month, this game is about Aerial Combat, im sorry but exclusively picking and running is not Aerial Combat.
but, its your 15 bucks fly the way you like.
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I have a few different thoughts here (I fly the K-4 frequently):
1. This K-4 pilot sounds like he's still learning how to fly it and how to aim the tater. He could easily have out-climbed you instead of the more traditional horizontal extension (not so much if you were in the ufo-like spit16). I see lots of 51 pilots who are in the same situation: they know how to get lots of altitude and fly really fast, but can never convert their energy into a high % gun solution. If it were agent360, pjk, or mondego they probably would have killed you on the first or second pass. :devil
2. It's not just his $15, but also the strengths of his aircraft. Spitfire pilots turn and turn like like a merry-go-round, but we rarely criticize them for it like we criticize a 51 for running. Maybe if you and the other spit pilots promise not to turn so much, we'll promise not to fly so fast. :aok
3. Isn't it boring? Well, yes and no. Some of us get tired of the simple latch-on-his-6-and-don't-let-go-til-he's-dead approach that you probably call a "fight." It's a youthful approach to air-combat, but a limited one that tends to the horizontal, and long tracking shots. Appreciate this point: whereas you have many seconds to saddle up on a bandit and fire in your spitfire, that K-4 pilot has a firing window of about .25 seconds every time he gets to fire the tater. If he misses, that spitfire has already turned around on his 6 to chase him! :lol
and besides he is not complaining he is "confused" as to why they fly like that when this is only a game and you don't really die.
What double-speak. :huh
My final point should be this: hypothetically, that K-4 pilot might have been decent in a Spitfire, but he needs time to learn something different and...more challenging. :D
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It wasn't that he wouldn't let him kill him, it's the way they go about not wanting to be killed, and then come to kill a pilot, they otherwise couldn't, with a pick.
Really, I think it stems from lack of basic training now days. Newbies who see alt monkeys land kills naturally go with a run90 or pee51.
Almost as bad as no0bs who are parrots that repeat things heard like alt monkeys and running pony's :D
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Read what you will into Ana's post.. If you run into him in the game, you won't get any fight out of him.
The K4 in the OP sounds just like him.
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So the K4 did his best to use his plane's advantage to kill you but failed. Then once E states were equal and this favored your plane he didn't "fight your fight" which would have ended in his plane being killed. In the final sequence, you know the k4 is in the area but return to the spit. You either didn't care about getting killed by the k4(which seems doubtful based on the fact that you started this thread) or your SA failed you, allowing the k4 to get a tater gun solution on you. Perhaps you should fly in the "all co-alt spit only arena."
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I have a few different thoughts here (I fly the K-4 frequently):
I see lots of 51 pilots who are in the same situation: they know how to get lots of altitude and fly really fast, but can never convert their energy into a high % gun solution.
There are those 51 pilots who don't need a tone of alt or speed to get a "high % gun solution". 51's just aren't very good planes compared to the other late war rides. They get a bad rap becuase they are misused by many.
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Pickers and runners, please help me understand what is the fascination with this style of game play. Maybe it's a "your $15" thing, but what possible enjoyment can someone get from only engaging cons when they are already engaged and running from a 1v1 when you have an E advantage? To me, 90% of the fun is the fight, not the winner. I am so confused..
It's a waste of brain cells trying to figure out the mind of a timid pilot. I too fail to understand their motivation, why do anything possible to avoid a fight in a dedicated PvP game? There are are a few guys in the MW arena like Senneca and MACZ that will do whatever they can to avoid a fight unless they have overwhelming altitude advantage and even then they are still more likely to run than fight. I personally see it as a waste of money but whatever floats their boat I guess.
ack-ack
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Read what you will into Ana's post.. If you run into him in the game, you won't get any fight out of him.
The K4 in the OP sounds just like him.
moot, are you making stuff up again? I don't think we fly much at the same time, because I can only recall a couple times when we fought in the arenas.
1. You were running away in a 152 and augered as I was chasing. Was kind of confused about that one.
2. You were dancing the funky chicken in the 38 and called me out into the DA when I pointed that out (I declined).
P.S. that you call me "ana" shows that you don't even recognize my in game handle! :lol
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... it's the way they go about not wanting to be killed, and then come to kill a pilot, they otherwise couldn't, with a pick....
So what? You get to jump in another plane, don't ya?
<S>
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I decided to get in a few sorties this morning. I ran into a all to common situation that honestly confuses me.
The set up...
There was a 109-K4 orbiting the base I took off from, I was in a Spit IX. After several blown BNZ passes, I had equalized the E states, so he decides to run away. Not wanting to waste time, I turned back to engage a P-38. I dispatched him, and low and behold the K4 is back. A few more blown passes, and he's gone again. I take care of a 190, then land.
I re-up from a further back base to get alt on the K4 trying to give him some of his medicine. No K4 to be found, so I start playing with a co-alt spit, and much to my surprise, the K4 is back, he blows a few passes again and extends, I go back to the spit only to have the K4 land a 30 on my wing.
Pickers and runners, please help me understand what is the fascination with this style of game play. Maybe it's a "your $15" thing, but what possible enjoyment can someone get from only engaging cons when they are already engaged and running from a 1v1 when you have an E advantage? To me, 90% of the fun is the fight, not the winner. I am so confused..
Was this player a new player or regular? YOU already know the answer to your own question..... If its a noob it comes down to survival. In the context that every one wants to land victories they just dont know a better way of doing it. Its going to take 6 months to a year to learn to acm.. Most are not going to stick around that long.
The only way your going to get better game play is if someone comes up with a better way of doing training....And this is not going to keep players like me who up temps once and a while and shoot anything that moves. Ive thought about "what if two weekers were forced into a training squad" but all your going to get is the guy in the k4 killing you on the first pass instead of taking all that time...
To me the K4 did every thing right for the abilitys he had...He had a fast plane.. He had alt. He had taters...and he MUST of had drop tanks :devil
The only thing you can pick on this guy for is being a noob..and not getting you on the first pass...
Its not like u didnt see him...you did and choose to stay and fight HIS fight the way he dictated...
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There are those 51 pilots who don't need a tone of alt or speed to get a "high % gun solution".
I can name 2, one that I've been up against personally.
51's just aren't very good planes compared to the other late war rides.
The 51 is a great aircraft.
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I can name 2, one that I've been up against personally.The 51 is a great aircraft.
The 51 is a great plane ...let em think all it can do is bnz i like it when i out turn someone and see the shock on their cartoon face that i just got on their 6 :rock
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The 51 is a great aircraft.
The 51 isn't a very good aircraft compared to the other late war rides, especially at typical MA fight alts. The stats bear this out, it is indisputable.
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moot, are you making stuff up again? I don't think we fly much at the same time, because I can only recall a couple times when we fought in the arenas.
1. You were running away in a 152 and augered as I was chasing. Was kind of confused about that one.
2. You were dancing the funky chicken in the 38 and called me out into the DA when I pointed that out (I declined).
P.S. that you call me "ana" shows that you don't even recognize my in game handle! :lol
Making stuff up? I don't think so! Where's the context? The only time I ran in a 152 from your pony was a long time ago, after chasing you for at least a sector and a half, because you couldn't fight on your own. You ran to your two or more friends, and it wasn't the first time in that flight either. So IIRC I saw I was wasting my time expecting a fight and augered. Lot quicker to get myself against someone with balls than doing the same defensive 3:1 flying I'd already been doing 100 times over. I'd chased you for probably 10-15min knowing you were running straight to your friends which I'd already killed once, expecting that maybe you'd grow a set once we were in the middle of nowhere with 3:1 odds... But instead you just did some more crappy and soporiphic bore n snooze.. Sorry, complete waste of time for me.
Funky chicken is something I'll do to tards like you so they see what they look like from the other end.. It's a denial of a quality fight when I know I'm not going to get one. That said, I'll only do it about once out of 50+ fights.
And that's not the only or most recent time I ran into you, "gavagai". Every single time I've run into you, you've done the sorriest flying (mostly running) in the game, worse than the greenest noobs who at least jump on an opportunity to fight when they see one. I have no idea how you haven't gotten kicked out of JG11 along with Syrax, or whatever his name was.
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The 51 isn't a very good aircraft compared to the other late war rides, especially at typical MA fight alts. The stats bear this out, it is indisputable.
Maybe people just are not skilled enough to fly it, because all they fly are spits and zeeks and 109's
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The 51 isn't a very good aircraft compared to the other late war rides. The stats bear this out, it is indisputable.
The P51D is like the Ta152. Even though the stats don't show it as a good ride it is insanely good. I have kept up in turnfights with Spitfire Mk16's in both of these aircraft (below 5k), and done other things that most people will never realize that either of these aircraft can do because the only BnZ with them.
Maybe people just are not skilled enough to fly it, because all they fly are spits and zeeks and 109's
I'm curious as to how the 109 got lumped in with that crowd...
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Maybe people just are not skilled enough to fly it, because all they fly are spits and zeeks and 109's
The stats don't lie. I'm not talking about pilots. :)
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The 51D isn't that bad. I've done a run of duels against 2bighorn, Dedalos, and a few others furballers like them in K4s, and it held its own.. The K4 was only slightly outdoing it.
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The P51D is like the Ta152. Even though the stats don't show it as a good ride it is insanely good. I have kept up in turnfights with Spitfire Mk16's in both of these aircraft (below 5k), and done other things that most people will never realize that either of these aircraft can do because the only BnZ with them.I'm curious as to how the 109 got lumped in with that crowd...
Compared to other late war rides, the 51 isn't very good. Period. The stats bear this out. Out turning a spit 16 cannot be done by a pilot of comparable skill to the 16 unless the speeds approach 400 or there is a disparate amount in the E states. I'm not saying you shouldn't enjoy your ride, I'm just saying it's a fact that the pony is inferior to the other late war rides. Indisputable.
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The 51D isn't that bad. I've done a run of duels against 2bighorn, Dedalos, and a few others furballers like them in K4s, and it held its own.. The K4 was only slightly outdoing it.
You prove my point. I didn't say it was "bad" I said it is inferior. It is.
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speaking of the 51 wth is its enm at 8 if its stats are bad?
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speeking of the 51 wth is its enm at 8 if its stats are bad?
..... compared to other late war rides.
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It carries tons of ordinance, flies forever, and is a pretty good fighter despite what others seem to think.
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I have a few different thoughts here (I fly the K-4 frequently):
1. This K-4 pilot sounds like he's still learning how to fly it and how to aim the tater. He could easily have out-climbed you instead of the more traditional horizontal extension (not so much if you were in the ufo-like spit16). I see lots of 51 pilots who are in the same situation: they know how to get lots of altitude and fly really fast, but can never convert their energy into a high % gun solution. If it were agent360, pjk, or mondego they probably would have killed you on the first or second pass. :devil
2. It's not just his $15, but also the strengths of his aircraft. Spitfire pilots turn and turn like like a merry-go-round, but we rarely criticize them for it like we criticize a 51 for running. Maybe if you and the other spit pilots promise not to turn so much, we'll promise not to fly so fast. :aok
3. Isn't it boring? Well, yes and no. Some of us get tired of the simple latch-on-his-6-and-don't-let-go-til-he's-dead approach that you probably call a "fight." It's a youthful approach to air-combat, but a limited one that tends to the horizontal, and long tracking shots. Appreciate this point: whereas you have many seconds to saddle up on a bandit and fire in your spitfire, that K-4 pilot has a firing window of about .25 seconds every time he gets to fire the tater. If he misses, that spitfire has already turned around on his 6 to chase him! :lol
What double-speak. :huh
My final point should be this: hypothetically, that K-4 pilot might have been decent in a Spitfire, but he needs time to learn something different and...more challenging. :D
You are describing a timid K4 pilot. There are a boatload of 109 drivers out there now, many of em wearing Muppet or BK tags that do amazing things in them because they want to fight and push the G14s and K4s to the limit. I can think of a bunch of 38 drivers who go looking for a fight too and push those big targets as far as they can to learn what they can do, not avoid it.
In the end it's a battle of game play mentality. For many of us, we understand that our time is limited to fly, we know that death is not real here and that our planes have an unlimited supply. We also know that the joy of the game is testing yourself against another human being in a cartoon plane.
There is another group, many who have much more time to fly, who approach it from the idea that 'living' means something and that fighting from only the advantage is the way to go. It's their dime, so go for it, but it's hard for many of us to understand as that's not the challenge for us.
A good example from the other night. Two of us upped to check a large dar bar to the south of the base. We ran into olskool in a 109 and someone else in a Zeke. They were slightly above us and it appeared that both were coming down. Olskool did and got a hit on me. The guy with me ended up lock in with Olskool so I turned to the Zeke as it appeared he was coming down. The second I turned towards him, he zoomed back up. Olskool and the other guy had a knock down drag out and Olskool finally went down. The Zeke left him hanging. Even sadder is the Zeke kept moving towards our base and then dove in trying to vulch only to die to the ack.
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It carries tons of ordinance, flies forever, and is a pretty good fighter
I agree with you 100%. However, compared to other late war rides in the MA, it is inferior.
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Steve the 51D might be a little worse than the other late war rides, but it's still 'very good' compared to them. Not gonna split hairs, but that's all I'm saying. :)
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Making stuff up? I don't think so! Where's the context? The only time I ran in a 152 from your pony was a long time ago, after chasing you for at least a sector and a half, because you couldn't fight on your own.
In my pony?? I haven't flown a pony since... January? I was in a 190 when you were running in the 152. You blew by me head-on and then dove down to engage guys lower than me, and I chased. You augered over the water for some reason.
Moot, the extent to which you are making stuff up is just sad. I don't know why you feel the need to do it. You hardly know me and we've hardly encountered each other in the arena. In fact, when I saw you do the funky chicken in the 38, it was the first time I'd ever fought you in the arenas, at least to my knowledge. I'd seen your name in here a bunch of times, and was very surprised indeed. At least you admit it.
Maybe's there's something about me personally that you don't like, you have a habit of picking on my posts. Whatever, if that's what floats your boat... but my flying you've hardly seen; the same can be said in the other direction.
I have no idea how you haven't gotten kicked out of JG11 along with Syrax, or whatever his name was.
Maybe you should ask them. You might hear something different than what you've made up your mind to believe, as if it's a kind of religious fervor.
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i have fought Moot in his 152, he is a very very good stick, and when you fly against him if you dont learn something than you cant learn.
there are others like him in there perspective planes
Wingzero in his N1k
Coronado in his Zero
Grim in his Hurri
Adonai in his k4
Agent360 also in the K4
FalconWing in his LA
AKdogg in his F4
Shawk in his F4
Lynx in whatever he is flying
Skyrock also in whatever he is flying
and allot of the Army of Muppet's
there are many more but its hard to remember them all
I<<S>> you all
the ones named and unnamed
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....MACZ...
Humm.. that name sound familiar..
Thanks all for the continued comments. It appears that I am not the only one who doesn't quite get the mentality.
I really enjoy most of the fights I get into. Only once in a while, when I don't have the time or patience to play with a pick/runner do I get frustrated.
Had I the time, I would have gone up in my own K4 to see what he was really made of.
I will be on the look out for this player. Esp when I have friends :)
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In my pony?? I haven't flown a pony since... January? I was in a 190 when you were running in the 152. You blew by me head-on and then dove down to engage guys lower than me, and I chased. You augered over the water for some reason.
Moot, the extent to which you are making stuff up is just sad. I don't know why you feel the need to do it. You hardly know me and we've hardly encountered each other in the arena. In fact, when I saw you do the funky chicken in the 38, it was the first time I'd ever fought you in the arenas, at least to my knowledge. I'd seen your name in here a bunch of times, and was very surprised indeed. At least you admit it.
Maybe's there's something about me personally that you don't like, you have a habit of picking on my posts. Whatever, if that's what floats your boat... but my flying you've hardly seen; the same can be said in the other direction.
It happened like I said, and if it wasnt you, it was your mongolian twin Syrax. There'd be no way to tell you two apart without radio text/vox, and maybe plane choice.
The extent to which I make stuff up is nill. I say it exactly as it is. You can't fight for crap and rarely even try. If my HDD wasn't fried I'd dig up at least a couple of films where you fly exactly like I described. One of the best of these is Freez and Agent trying to get a fight out of you a sector away while I'm doing something else, and you running for at least a sector and a half rather than fight. The funny thing for me that makes me so intolerant like you point out, is that your posts read just like all the flying I've seen from you.. rubbish. So when you come in a thread and try to excuse some K4 flying by the Timid Textbook, I'll call it exactly like I see it.
There's a lot of very good examples of 109 flying, e.g. Stang in F4s, the Finns in G2 and G6s, Agent and Messiah and Freez in K4s.. There's also some pretty good average sticks in them.. Then there's the total new guys who have barely any idea what to do, and then there's sticks like you who look like they meant to play Flight Simulator Tourist Edition or something.
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That you put syrax and I together is ironic, I can tell you why but not here. On the other hand, I'll admit in an instant that I ran from a 2vs1 in a 190D-9, :D especially when I could tell that one was agent360. I was having a heck of a time with my new pedals then. We all run sometimes, even you. :aok
See my pm.
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The only reason I'll run is if there's a better fight the way I'm running, and the only reason I'll auger is because AltF4 is a slower way to get back to the tower and find a better fight. The only reason I stick stir is like I said above, a way to flip my finger at tards who're not worth the effort. The only reason I've gotten called out for it for the first time, now, after years of playing, is because it happens that rarely. Anyone will confirm this. The only reason it's you who brought it up, is because that's all you can find to somehow reply to me calling you out for exactly what you are, some guy who plays multiplayer games to run from other players, and pretend his poop doesn't smell like it.
It doesn't matter if you're great buddies with the rest of JG11 and can't stand Syrax yourself.. You're both the same as far as gameplay and fun is concerned.
I think that covers it.
edit - And I'll run the risk of being censored for this... But I say it because it's exactly what I think, aka honesty. I'm not even doing this out of ego like you tried to say in another post. And don't bother with PMs.
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gava those red guys sure think ur plane is prrty ;)
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gava those red guys sure think ur plane is prrty ;)
Actualy I avoid his plane just like I avoid a few other players who never make it worthwhile. Just like I avoid other instances where I know the gameplay is going to be brought as low as possible.. e.g. guys who sink a good furball's CV.
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Hiya Moot.
Not going to get in the middle of this. You are both grown men. Just wanted to clarify the one point that has me scratching my head. "Syrax" is NOT in JG11. He was, for a total of 11 hours, before I removed him. G-man has never given cause for removal from the Gruppe, and frankly I see him as an asset to the squad.
What goes on in the MA, I don't pretend to know, as I don't fly in the MA, but I can assure you, G-man is a fighter in the AvA, or he would not be in the Sonderstaffel.
<Salute>
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Perhaps you should fly in the "all co-alt spit only arena."
Please point the way...I'm always interested in something new. :rofl
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I am not going to reference to this specific incident as I was not there and there's always three versions to every engagement...His version, the other guy's version and what really happened....but...
Fighter combat aircraft in reality and therefore their approximate respective models in AH were designed specifically to perform in a mutual support capacity. Fighter aircraft were not intended to be employed individually against a single opponent in a hermetically sealed off environment. They were designed to support and mutually assist one another against a multitude of usually dissimilar performing aircraft. This environment is roughly approximated in the MA but with much more diversity, making this fact even more important.
The poorer an aircraft's turning radius the more poorly suited it is to face-off against a single enemy who can outmaneuver it (other factors being equal of course). Obviously, if the poorer turner has a distinct energy or positional advantage he can force the turner into the defensive mode temporarily. But, a decent stick in a very maneuverable plane who has a modicum of SA can generally ruin a guns solution long enough to equalize E states forcing the less maneuverable opponent to retreat or fight at a severe disadvantage. Anyone who has tried to bounce Greebo's F6F can attest to this truth.
The fiction perpetuated in the game that everyone must 1 vs 1 every plane they come across is simply a perverted manifestation of "internet bravado" with no basis in reality and entirely out of context with the design concepts of the planes we fly. The early war rides that turn on a dime and give you change are best suited to the 1 vs 1 as they will almost always be more maneuverable than their opponent. If everyone accepted every 1 vs 1, regardless of the situation and match-up, pretty soon we'd all be flying nothing but Spits, Hurricanes, Zekes and Nikis. We can see by the relative unpopularity of the Early War arena that this mode of gaming does not hold much interest for the vast majority of players.
The faster, less manuverable, later war, rides are interesting because they offer more of a challenge than simply being able to latch onto a guy's six and stay they until he either dies or you get picked. The fact that there are faster planes about that do pick the more maneuverable planes actually facilitates gameplay balance. If there was not this intrinsic liability to the relatively time consumung vulnerability of the "ride the saddle and hammer away" approach it would be practically futile to fly any plane but the top 3-4 flavors of turners. I am sure most will agree there's already sufficient prevalence of Spits, Nikis and Hurricane's in the MA...
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We can see by the relative unpopularity of the Early War arena that this mode of gaming does not hold much interest for the vast majority of players.
Of course the smaller plane set and general lack of late war uber rides has nothing to do with it...... :rolleyes:
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The P51D is like the Ta152. Even though the stats don't show it as a good ride it is insanely good. I have kept up in turnfights with Spitfire Mk16's in both of these aircraft (below 5k), and done other things that most people will never realize that either of these aircraft can do because the only BnZ with them.I'm curious as to how the 109 got lumped in with that crowd...
if you were able to out turn a Spitfire Mk XVI in a P-51D then the Spitfire driver was absolutely clueless and obviously didn't know what they were doing.
It's like when I am able to out turn Zekes, I don't automatically assume I can because the P-38 is a better turn but rather I was able to because the other guy was clueless.
ack-ack
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if you were able to out turn a Spitfire Mk XVI in a P-51D then the Spitfire driver was absolutely clueless and obviously didn't know what they were doing.
It's like when I am able to out turn Zekes, I don't automatically assume I can because the P-38 is a better turn but rather I was able to because the other guy was clueless.
ack-ack
dead on
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So the K4 did his best to use his plane's advantage to kill you but failed. Then once E states were equal and this favored your plane he didn't "fight your fight" which would have ended in his plane being killed. In the final sequence, you know the k4 is in the area but return to the spit. You either didn't care about getting killed by the k4(which seems doubtful based on the fact that you started this thread) or your SA failed you, allowing the k4 to get a tater gun solution on you. Perhaps you should fly in the "all co-alt spit only arena."
:aok very well put :salute
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Hello Folks,
Let's go ahead and wrap this post up with a great big....Yawn.
<Salute>
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if you were able to out turn a Spitfire Mk XVI in a P-51D then the Spitfire driver was absolutely clueless and obviously didn't know what they were doing.
It's like when I am able to out turn Zekes, I don't automatically assume I can because the P-38 is a better turn but rather I was able to because the other guy was clueless.
ack-ack
I never said that the P51 nor the Ta152 could out turn the Spitfire Mk16- but under the right circumstances, particularly with a large enough gap in pilot skill, it's doable. That does say something about the performance of the aircraft, though.
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The faster, less manuverable, later war, rides are interesting because they offer more of a challenge than simply being able to latch onto a guy's six and stay they until he either dies or you get picked. The fact that there are faster planes about that do pick the more maneuverable planes actually facilitates gameplay balance. If there was not this intrinsic liability to the relatively time consumung vulnerability of the "ride the saddle and hammer away" approach it would be practically futile to fly any plane but the top 3-4 flavors of turners. I am sure most will agree there's already sufficient prevalence of Spits, Nikis and Hurricane's in the MA...
Can you clarify this Zaz. Do you believe that the guys flying the LW uber rides are doing it because those birds are MORE of a challenge? If it's a guy fighting down low in a 51 I can see that, but if it's a guy hanging above the fight, coming in at light speed, taking a shot and blowing out at light speed, I'm hard pressed to see it.
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Hehe. Well I'll add my 2 cents since im the biggest cheatfire dw33b, as is always being pointed out to me ;)
In reality when I up my cheatfire and start turning with a 51D I get lazy as I think 'wow 51D turning with me, this guys a noob as usual, no problems here'. Sometimes thought, im both pleasantly and unpleasantly surprised that the other guy actually knows what he's doing, and is giving me a harder time than expected! I then come to my senses, realise hes a good stick and treat him accordingly. I saw Vne1 once turning with skyrock, vne in a 51D and skyrock in an F4U1A. Vne1 made it through 3 or turning scissors before I knocked skyrock off his six. My point is, he kept it up for around 4 turns, which I thought was very skillfull!
I once recall diving on a spit16 me in the same plane, with MEGA E advantage. I chopped throttle on the dive to give myself some time. He pointed his plane down just when I made my shot, I tried to adjust and blew my E as I did it. I was so frustrated I reversed vertically still in chopped throttle, and in a moments notice the sixteen was on my six. 4 to 5 minutes later I was dead. It was JAXXO :rock
Major respect for JAXXO and all the blue knight squad. That incident taught me never to underestimate anything I engage.
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I never said that the P51 nor the Ta152 could out turn the Spitfire Mk16- but under the right circumstances, particularly with a large enough gap in pilot skill, it's doable. That does say something about the performance of the aircraft, though.
It says nothing about plane performance but speaks volumes about pilot abilities.
Using my example of out turning a Zeke in a P-38, how does that say something about plane performance?
ack-ack
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Can you clarify this Zaz. Do you believe that the guys flying the LW uber rides are doing it because those birds are MORE of a challenge? If it's a guy fighting down low in a 51 I can see that, but if it's a guy hanging above the fight, coming in at light speed, taking a shot and blowing out at light speed, I'm hard pressed to see it.
What I am saying is, there is no more straightforward, one-dimensionally simplistic approach to air combat than selecting an enemy and latching onto him in a grab-ass merry-go-round until one of you is dead, either by each other's hand or the hand of another. Also, there are planes that make this mode of play even more easy and straightforward, planes like the Spit, Niki, Zeke, Hurricane etc. To select and succeed with a plane that is not so straightforward, a plane that cannot automatically gain angles against most others simply by virtue of its hardcoded turnrate parameters, is invariably more complex and potentially interesting. A big part of the reason for this is, when you're in a Spit, single-mindedly committed to the turn-fight of ultimate doom, the only decision you really have to make is which enemy you are going to choose to latch onto, everything else is your plane's innate turn-rate combined with your instinct, reflexes and muscle memory. When you fly a relatively poor turner you must continuously make a multitude of decisions in an ongoing effort to not get yourself backed into a corner, over-committed to one enemy, or so divorced from the engagement that you have no opportunity to get a gun solution (ie: those that egress 2 sectors after a high speed pass).
I am by no means advocating a "one pass and haul ass" approach with a poor turner under any and all circumstances. What I am saying is there is often a lot of finesse required to tactically engage, but at the same time, keep at arms length a much more maneuverable plane, refusing to play his game then ultimately bring him down. Sometimes that will definitely mean taking a fleeting high deflection shot then consolidating energy and/or position, sometimes that will absolutely mean quickly looping over and tenaciously boring down on him without hesitation before he can recover his position. Excellent timing and the art of knowing how and especially when to do these things is the difference between success or failure with very little margin for error. If you play too timidly you will not kill effectively or efficiently, play too loose and you get into the turner's game and against a comparably skilled opponent the hardcoded parameters of the aircraft will determine the result 9 out of 10 times (Per AKAK's P38 vs. Zeke example). This is quite a bit more complex than just selecting a plane and fixating on him with an uber-turner until you kill it, die by it, or get picked by a 3rd party.
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I never said that the P51 nor the Ta152 could out turn the Spitfire Mk16- but under the right circumstances, particularly with a large enough gap in pilot skill, it's doable.
Out turning a zeke in a goon is doable "particularly with a large enough gap in pilot skill". :rolleyes:
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^_^ K4 is horrible BnZmer plane! it's better off tnbing imo. I dunno sounds like he's experimenting w/ bnzmnig. When I do BnZ sorties, I usually don't go for the kill unless I know it's 80% chance I will take 1 or 2 down in 1 pass.
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There's a lot more to TnB than latching onto someone's six as easily as you put it Zazen. There's also skill required to effectively E fight any plane. The problem is the 500mph pickers that run out of icon range on the first reversal, while hiding under the "it's my plane's advantage" excuse for not losing their cartoon plane.
Imagine if your favorite fullback run a safety in to not get tackled, just because he can run faster.
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So the K4 did his best to use his plane's advantage to kill you but failed. Then once E states were equal and this favored your plane he didn't "fight your fight" which would have ended in his plane being killed. In the final sequence, you know the k4 is in the area but return to the spit. You either didn't care about getting killed by the k4(which seems doubtful based on the fact that you started this thread) or your SA failed you, allowing the k4 to get a tater gun solution on you. Perhaps you should fly in the "all co-alt spit only arena."
Since clearly your intelect isn't sufficient to comprehend the facts stated, let me simplify the entire point of this thread.
Why play an on-line multi-player sim, when all you do is run away when confronted with the very thing that the simulation was designed for, online air combat? My desire is to understand the mental defect that thinks this style of play is fun.
It's not worth my time to chase a timid player across the map, it's just no fun. I suspect he knew I was a better stick, and chose to wait till one of his "friends" caught my attention using them as a sacrificial lamb to better his personal score. Honestly, when I see a player on the green side doing that, I don't help them.
I think it was zazen who mentioned this was a historical tactic, but also mentioned, they only had one life unlike this game. If this game was to mimic real life, you would pay $15 for each life you loose. Honestly, if it were like that, who would play? How would that game play be? Think about it..
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My desire is to understand the mental defect that thinks this style of play is fun.
Your wording shows it's not your desire to understand someone's different style of playing in any way. It's just a rant in disguise.
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Or he's ranting on what he sees as nonsense, and is asking if anyone would show him what he's missing to make sense of the nonsense.
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Since clearly your intelect isn't sufficient to comprehend the facts stated, let me simplify the entire point of this thread.
Why play an on-line multi-player sim, when all you do is run away when confronted with the very thing that the simulation was designed for, online air combat? My desire is to understand the mental defect that thinks this style of play is fun.
It's not worth my time to chase a timid player across the map, it's just no fun. I suspect he knew I was a better stick, and chose to wait till one of his "friends" caught my attention using them as a sacrificial lamb to better his personal score. Honestly, when I see a player on the green side doing that, I don't help them.
I think it was zazen who mentioned this was a historical tactic, but also mentioned, they only had one life unlike this game. If this game was to mimic real life, you would pay $15 for each life you loose. Honestly, if it were like that, who would play? How would that game play be? Think about it..
join all the other people who made this same thread :rofl Get over it people will fly the way they want..Runnin away is a lot of peoples tactics so they can come back and kill U because maybe u forgot to take ur ridillin for ur ADD..Why should they turn with ur superior spit turny bird plane? SO u can beat em?Maybe they should use there planes strengths and not get lured into ur planes strengths.U no there is a strategy to this game.Its not just turning ur airplane as sharp as it goes in circles all day just hoping urs turns sharper :rofl Get over it! Learn how to fly!!
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The problem is the 500mph pickers that run out of icon range on the first reversal, while hiding under the "it's my plane's advantage" excuse for not losing their cartoon plane.
Imagine if your favorite fullback run a safety in to not get tackled, just because he can run faster.
I am contending that anyone who seriously runs out of icon range after a missed gun pass, never pressing the attack, is so ineffectual as to be tactically insignificant. If that is literally all they can/will do they are virtually no threat and can be all but ignored...If you have even decent SA that should be no problem.
That being said, I have, on countless occasions, found myself ground to a stalemate while pressing the attack with an energy advantage against a turny bird. A good pilot in a very maneuverable plane can often do this to an aggressive pilot in a less maneuverable plane with more E. At that point you have a choice, disengage or get into a knife fight in a telephone booth with a plane that can out-turn you by a factor of 2 to 1. Those not pathelogically pre-occupied with other's perception of their E-Peen would disengage, reset, and re-engage if possible, saluting the turner for a job well-done even if they are ultimately successful in bringing him down.
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Why play an on-line multi-player sim, when all you do is run away when confronted with the very thing that the simulation was designed for, online air combat? My desire is to understand the mental defect that thinks this style of play is fun.
Perhaps the K4 pilot's taste runs to girls and beef, while you prefer boys and sheep for fun; who cares. That does not make his way "mental defect", just different. Obviously he enjoyed his style of play; you seem to be complaining, so you must not have enjoyed your style very much; but perhaps I read too much into your post? :D
You also pointed-out (maybe I'm wrong) that if he got shot down he could re-up another cartoon plane. Question is: after his 'tater gun took your wing, did you get another cartoon plane? :devil+
I suspect he knew I was a better stick, and chose to wait till one of his "friends" caught my attention using them as a sacrificial lamb to better his personal score. Honestly, when I see a player on the green side doing that, I don't help them.
Really?! Even if you don't help the stalker directly, you would assist him indirectly by helping the lamb. Or is it that you are stating that you WILL NOT take ANY action when you see such occuring? My, what a way to play the game. Oh wait, that was judgemental of me; I should remeber that while I like beef & girls, others may prefer boys & sheep. :D
Skadoosh
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I am contending that anyone who seriously runs out of icon range after a missed gun pass, never pressing the attack, is so ineffectual as to be tactically insignificant. If that is literally all they can/will do they are virtually no threat and can be all but ignored...If you have even decent SA that should be no problem.
That being said, I have, on countless occasions, found myself ground to a stalemate while pressing the attack with an energy advantage against a turny bird. A good pilot in a very maneuverable plane can often do this to an aggressive pilot in a less maneuverable plane with more E. At that point you have a choice, disengage or get into a knife fight in a telephone booth with a plane that can out-turn you by a factor of 2 to 1. Those not pathelogically pre-occupied with other's perception of their E-Peen would disengage, reset, and re-engage if possible, saluting the turner for a job well-done even if they are ultimately successful in bringing him down.
It's not tactically ineffective. They've managed a way to guarantee themselves kills without any threat to them, disengaging just because you're his only target and then returning once he has engaged another target, and/or speeding through a furball, while any reds that make any attempt to follow you will naturally be hung out and get picked. This doesn't add anything to the gameplay.
Beyond that, the dweebery can be expanded much more. The ones that only wanna fight when you're getting ganged, when there is no reason to add your bullets into a 3 vs 1. The planes that exclusively run to and setup friendly planes, even if they have the alt advantage. The ones that come dive into a 1on1 to steal kill (I don't know how many times I've bailed early just so the right person gets their kill), and the list goes on.
Now, when a good pilot comes in a 190d and shows how to use every single bit of E and angle you possibly can, you just consent your owning. If you're good enough to beat his E and get a shot, he should consent to his getting owned off his perch.
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First of all, I don't bnz tactics or planes would exist at all online if planes met co-alt in MA, saluted each other, and fought 1v1 to the finish with no outside interlopers. You'd have to be out of your mind to up something like a Mustang or a Dora in this situation.
Being a bnz tard starts to look like an attractive option only after you realize how full the MA is of gang-pick tards and how little chance of finishing a "fair" fight you have.
Further, If one is having a problem with runners, there is a simple solution.
Fly a faster plane.
The reason why people whine about runners instead of going with this simple expedient is that faster planes tend to be either harder to manuever (P-51, Dora, Typh, P47N) than your Spit-N1K-Hurri crowd, cost perk points (F4U-4, Spit14), or both (Tempest, 262). Occasionally, when I've had cranial trauma and think t'n'b fighting will be a good idea in the gang-pick fest that is the MA, I'll take up a Hurri. You don't hear me complaining because everything else will invariably try to run if I latch onto their six. That is because not running in that situation would be S-T-U-P-I-D. Not brave, not (sports)manly, nor worthy of a <salute> and well-met, no, just plain old garden-variety idiotic. Although I find those who run away and come back to harass more than a couple of times, vexing. For Pete's sake, if you have to run twice, stay runned off. You go look for a target with less SA, and I'll go look for one stupid enough to turn with a Hurri.
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Being a bnz tard starts to look like an attractive option only after you realize how full the MA is of gang-pick tards and how little chance of finishing a "fair" fight you have.
Well, the point of BnZ is to make the fight unfair for your opponent, negating you of -any- fair fight anyway.
Occasionally, when I've had cranial trauma and think t'n'b fighting will be a good idea in the gang-pick fest that is the MA, I'll take up a Hurri. You don't hear me complaining because everything else will invariably try to run if I latch onto their six. That is because not running in that situation would be S-T-U-P-I-D. Not brave, not (sports)manly, nor worthy of a <salute> and well-met, no, just plain old garden-variety idiotic.
Idiotic and stupid? Losing my cartoon plane? Having fun? Confused.
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I decided to get in a few sorties this morning. I ran into a all to common situation that honestly confuses me.
The set up...
There was a 109-K4 orbiting the base I took off from, I was in a Spit IX. After several blown BNZ passes, I had equalized the E states, so he decides to run away. Not wanting to waste time, I turned back to engage a P-38. I dispatched him, and low and behold the K4 is back. A few more blown passes, and he's gone again. I take care of a 190, then land.
I re-up from a further back base to get alt on the K4 trying to give him some of his medicine. No K4 to be found, so I start playing with a co-alt spit, and much to my surprise, the K4 is back, he blows a few passes again and extends, I go back to the spit only to have the K4 land a 30 on my wing.
Pickers and runners, please help me understand what is the fascination with this style of game play. Maybe it's a "your $15" thing, but what possible enjoyment can someone get from only engaging cons when they are already engaged and running from a 1v1 when you have an E advantage? To me, 90% of the fun is the fight, not the winner. I am so confused..
Your missing the point as to what makes this game so good. You never know what the other guy is going to do, it may frustrate the hell out of you that they wont fight in a manner you want. Now if the game was a set format that this plane will do this then do that what would be the point it would be very predictable & boring.
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A big part of the reason for this is, when you're in a Spit, single-mindedly committed to the turn-fight of ultimate doom, the only decision you really have to make is which enemy you are going to choose to latch onto, everything else is your plane's innate turn-rate combined with your instinct, reflexes and muscle memory. When you fly a relatively poor turner you must continuously make a multitude of decisions in an ongoing effort to not get yourself backed into a corner, over-committed to one enemy, or so divorced from the engagement that you have no opportunity to get a gun solution (ie: those that egress 2 sectors after a high speed pass).
So, let me get this straight then. In a Spit you don't have to continuously make a multitude of decisions in an ongoing effort to not get yourself backed into a corner, over-committed to one enemy, or so divorced from the engagement that you have no opportunity to get a gun solution? And this is because you're single-mindedly committed to to one and only one con?
Get real.
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Why play an on-line multi-player sim, when all you do is run away when confronted with the very thing that the simulation was designed for, online air combat? My desire is to understand the mental defect that thinks this style of play is fun.
I'll tell you what SCCA. Next time we're both in the MA at the same time I'll up a Spit IX, you up a K-4. We'll pick an out of the way area of the map and do a few one on one's with DA merge rules. Sound like fun?
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Well, the point of BnZ is to make the fight unfair for your opponent, negating you of -any- fair fight anyway.
Idiotic and stupid? Losing my cartoon plane? Having fun? Confused.
When you have a much less maneuverable aircraft facing a better turner, an E advantage is exactly what makes the match-up remotely fair. As Zazen pointed out, a speedster with an E advantage meeting a turner 1v1, both being equal pilots, tends to end in stalemate, advantage to neither. In dogfighting, Pony vrs. a Spit is a total wash in favor of the Spit, EXCEPT for the speed advantage which allows the Pony greater ability to choose when he engages and disengages. Toss out the idea of disengaging and any trade of maneuverability for greater speed is pointless. Forget 190s, forget Mustangs, forget Jugs, etc, no reason to fly them. Heck, if you throw alot of Zeroes into the mix and don't allow bnz/energy tactics, you can pretty much write off Spits and Corsairs as well.
And yes, if you find a Hurri latched onto your long six Co-E in most airplanes, doing anything other than extending is an incredibly stupid waste of your cartoon airplane. What kind of masochist finds getting blown out of the sky, when avoidable, some kind of fun? You would GIVE a kill to some as a reward for flying what is an "easier" aircraft to dogfight, someone who likely only survived because you were having a bad-gunnery day? Seems kind of pointless to me. This is distinct from the situation where a Hurri or Spit is diving on your six with E, where you HAVE to try for an overshoot, and where the high-speeds give you a reasonable chance.
You can extend and come back of course, but having been on the other end of bnz'ing, I actually consider it less annoying if they head over the horizon than try to harass me to death. However, fly as you wish.
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Since clearly your intelect isn't sufficient to comprehend the facts stated, let me simplify the entire point of this thread.
I love irony and you don't disappoint. The irony? You insult my intelligence yet you are not capable of correctly spelling intellect. :D :aok WTG, dolt.
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When you have a much less maneuverable aircraft facing a better turner, an E advantage is exactly what makes the match-up remotely fair. As Zazen pointed out, a speedster with an E advantage meeting a turner 1v1, both being equal pilots, tends to end in stalemate, advantage to neither. In dogfighting, Pony vrs. a Spit is a total wash in favor of the Spit, EXCEPT for the speed advantage which allows the Pony greater ability to choose when he engages and disengages. Toss out the idea of disengaging and any trade of maneuverability for greater speed is pointless. Forget 190s, forget Mustangs, forget Jugs, etc, no reason to fly them. Heck, if you throw alot of Zeroes into the mix and don't allow bnz/energy tactics, you can pretty much write off Spits and Corsairs as well.
And yes, if you find a Hurri latched onto your long six Co-E in most airplanes, doing anything other than extending is an incredibly stupid waste of your cartoon airplane. What kind of masochist finds getting blown out of the sky, when avoidable, some kind of fun? You would GIVE a kill to some as a reward for flying what is an "easier" aircraft to dogfight, someone who likely only survived because you were having a bad-gunnery day? Seems kind of pointless to me. This is distinct from the situation where a Hurri or Spit is diving on your six with E, where you HAVE to try for an overshoot, and where the high-speeds give you a reasonable chance.
You can extend and come back of course, but having been on the other end of bnz'ing, I actually consider it less annoying if they head over the horizon than try to harass me to death. However, fly as you wish.
There is a lot more to flying, both TnB and BnZ, than turning radius and potential energy. Just because you meet a spit co-alt in your Mustang doesn't mean you should automatically make haste to disengage just because he can turn tighter. There are many, many more ways to make use of your greater energy than diving. Just the same as there are many, many ways to shake a hurri, some of which include running, many of which do not.
No one is complaining about using energy tactics or BnZ, because they do offer the chance for the other pilot to fight back. Running away to 'reset' at the first threat is neither, it's just dweebing, which is what the real rant is about. Personally, I believe if you are high on your perch and let another plane equalize e-states, it's your own fault and you should fight your fight and die, learn, re-up and do better next time. Same as if you let a hurri set on your six, it's your own fault, give him a ride. You can still make him earn it. I don't see how you can 'waste' a cartoon plane. Or how it's 'masochist' to lose what doesn't exist or cause any pain/harm/injury.
And besides that, there's always the chance it's a newb that won't hit you anyway, why not give it a shot? You might die? :uhoh
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Almost as bad as no0bs who are parrots that repeat things heard like alt monkeys and running pony's :D
heheheheeee
read Erich Hartmann:
there are three golden rules which can't be discussed if you want to survive. I simply make these for myself by following the descriptions from Erich Hartmann which was the most successfull Combat Pilot in ww2 with 352 confirmed shotdowns.
Here are the simple 3 Rules i followed being in a 109 K4:
- when i didnt have an advantage i never went into a fight, i turned away, Coffeebreak!
- i planned my sorties to have all time the Option to Escape, Altitude, Speed etc. (All time coming in above the Cons let you keep smiling!)
- everytime i show Patiance!!! Never trying to make the Fast kill! I go for 100% Energy Fight. Pure Boom and Zoom is the preffered Attack Method! (I never let myself dragged down for a Low Level Fight)
:aok
Doing so and you might understand the Fun of being an alt monky, coming in a good wing formation with squad mates can be frustrating for opponents, thats the way it is, simply deadly, therefore you trained so long together, BnZ in drag ppl up, Your Wingman can simply 'pick' him out while he is hanging at the Prop. Its Fun! :rock
But when i am in the mood of TnB i take the Seafire and do some carrier oppps :D
Whats wrong with it? :cool:
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As Zazen pointed out, a speedster with an E advantage meeting a turner 1v1, both being equal pilots, tends to end in stalemate, advantage to neither.
I respectfully disagree. I'm not trying to start a different argument but I maintain that a speedster w/ an E advantage is in the driver's seat vs. a comparable skilled turnfighter. I have put several good pilots in the tower with the E advantage. I'm making no claim at being better than them, I think my advantage made the difference. I can remember a fight w/ Levi back in the day when I had his spitty pinned and 1v1. Took me a little while but I finally got him so bled out and on the deck that I got him. Levi is arguably the best spitty pilot in the game, no offense to Slappy and others.
W/ equal skill, the pilot that has the e advantage and takes care to maintain it will win more often, IMHO. Even if he is just flying the very average P51D ;)
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Since clearly your intelect isn't sufficient to comprehend the facts stated, let me simplify the entire point of this thread.
Why play an on-line multi-player sim, when all you do is run away when confronted with the very thing that the simulation was designed for, online air combat? My desire is to understand the mental defect that thinks this style of play is fun.
It's not worth my time to chase a timid player across the map, it's just no fun. I suspect he knew I was a better stick, and chose to wait till one of his "friends" caught my attention using them as a sacrificial lamb to better his personal score. Honestly, when I see a player on the green side doing that, I don't help them.
I think it was zazen who mentioned this was a historical tactic, but also mentioned, they only had one life unlike this game. If this game was to mimic real life, you would pay $15 for each life you loose. Honestly, if it were like that, who would play? How would that game play be? Think about it..
I'm curious. When you're flying something like a 190D-9, or a P-51, there's a Spitfire16 latched onto your 6 1000 yards out, and you're both going 300mph on the deck, do you turn to fight him? Granted you've already made a mistake to get into that situation, but once you're there... Is that how the game is supposed to be played? Make yourself a target because it's the manly thing to do? It's fun to shoot pilots who make mistakes, but it's far more fun to shoot pilots who are difficult and challenging to kill. What you're asking for seems to violate this basic principle of competitive gameplay. Personally, I find it disappointing and boring when my opponents don't try hard not to die.
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Or he's ranting on what he sees as nonsense, and is asking if anyone would show him what he's missing to make sense of the nonsense.
I for one would like to know what motivates these timid players. Could one of you timid players please explain why you play a PvP centric game and refuse to fight?
ack-ack
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I love irony and you don't disappoint. The irony? You insult my intelligence yet you are not capable of correctly spelling intellect. :D :aok WTG, dolt.
You call me a dolt, for a simple spelling error, yet you were unable to understand the simple concept outlined in this thread. Talk about irony, lol. It scares me that you are passing this attitude on to your kids. Your post only proves my theory on your intellect, when you have no intelligent response, comment on grammar, spelling or punctuation. This is typical of your behavior on the boards.
Now, back on topic.
It appears most people agree that the 1PHA players repeatedly running from fights, extending out of icon range, only returning once you are engaged is nonsensical in game that highlights aerial combat. It also appears there is no real reason other than the fear of scratching the paint on your cartoon plane.
Someone said early on, it may have been a player new to the K4, and didn't have sufficient skills to do anything more than gun and run. If that were the case, wouldn't it behoove them to at least attempt to engage even a Spit so as to learn what the abilities of the bird are, learn what works?
Dhyran, your Erich Hartmann reference is fine stuff for a real life pilot. The real "game" in WWII is quite different than AH. The "game" there was to win and live. AH is about playing, and playing isn't running from a fight (at least as I see it).
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moot is spot on :aok
some of the flying that went on during the ava Bofb setup was as described.
Great fights against decent emil flyers thrila, gian, bubi even came down from alt in his 110 to tangle with me. Gavagai seems to have some sort of built in defence mechanism of never engaging unless with numbers. Its smart/cowardly whatever angle you look at it. live on the edge every now and again and you might enjoy it as others have stated.
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I'm curious. When you're flying something like a 190D-9, or a P-51, there's a Spitfire16 latched onto your 6 1000 yards out, and you're both going 300mph on the deck, do you turn to fight him? Granted you've already made a mistake to get into that situation, but once you're there... Is that how the game is supposed to be played? Make yourself a target because it's the manly thing to do? It's fun to shoot pilots who make mistakes, but it's far more fun to shoot pilots who are difficult and challenging to kill. What you're asking for seems to violate this basic principle of competitive gameplay. Personally, I find it disappointing and boring when my opponents don't try hard not to die.
First, I almost never fly a 51 or a 190D-9. To me they encourage the very timid tactics I don't understand. I do sometimes fly a 190A-8, so with that in mind, here is what I would do. In that situation I would attempt a rolling or flat scissors to force an overshoot where I can get guns on him.
If I was in a 190 5k over a Spit, I wouldn't run and gun like this player did. Sure, my first attempt or two would be a BNZ, I wouldn't however extend more than necessary. I would keep pressing the attack not allowing him to reset. The very last thing I would do would be to make a few passes and extend out of the fight, all the time calling for help on range/squad channel, waiting for that help to arrive, then returning to the fight only once I knew the spit was busy (ah-hem) PLAYING THE GAME.
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I'll tell you what SCCA. Next time we're both in the MA at the same time I'll up a Spit IX, you up a K-4. We'll pick an out of the way area of the map and do a few one on one's with DA merge rules. Sound like fun?
I would be happy to do that. You and I have tangled before. I would likely loose, but it will be fun. I am not that good a stick, but I never run from a 1v1 fight. I guess that's why my K/D is so poor. I almost never run from a 2v1 fight either :)
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Your missing the point as to what makes this game so good. You never know what the other guy is going to do, it may frustrate the hell out of you that they wont fight in a manner you want. Now if the game was a set format that this plane will do this then do that what would be the point it would be very predictable & boring.
Respectfully Lyric, you are missing MY point. I don't care if he won't fight my way, I don't understand why he won't fight at all. I am no expert in a K4, but I have seen some fantastic moves in a K4 that still baffle me. It's a great plane, there was no reason to run as far as he did.
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it is not the plane. Just wanted to make that clear out of all this mess. Seen some bad talk about K4s in this pile of rubbish somewhere...
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Hmmm, now I'm confused (not really an unusual state)....
You meet 4 opponents and dispatch 3 of them. The fourth obviously lacks the skill (or will) to give your spit a decent fight and refuses to commit. Hmm, 75% of your opponents fought and lost....and you want to come to the bbs and complain about the 1 guy that wouldn't let you kill him?
ey NB...how ya doin?
i think his point was that the onl time the 109 was willing to engage was when he had serious alt advantagfe, or when he thought that he wasn't looking?
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A big part of the reason for this is, when you're in a Spit, single-mindedly committed to the turn-fight of ultimate doom, the only decision you really have to make is which enemy you are going to choose to latch onto, everything else is your plane's innate turn-rate combined with your instinct, reflexes and muscle memory. When you fly a relatively poor turner you must continuously make a multitude of decisions in an ongoing effort to not get yourself backed into a corner, over-committed to one enemy, or so divorced from the engagement that you have no opportunity to get a gun solution (ie: those that egress 2 sectors after a high speed pass).
I am really surprised that you would paint with such a broad brush about those who fly a Spit or any other "turner".
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Ive learned far more from my defeats then I have from my victories.
And Ive learned a great deal when at a disadvantage. I learned how to fight 2 or 3 fighters at once only by doing it.
I think timidity will really stunt your growth in this game.
Another thing I blame this silly score system for.
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no one plays for score!! they all play for fun! :)
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I am really surprised that you would paint with such a broad brush about those who fly a Spit or any other "turner".
Well, it's true.
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I'm curious. When you're flying something like a 190D-9, or a P-51, there's a Spitfire16 latched onto your 6 1000 yards out, and you're both going 300mph on the deck, do you turn to fight him?
Sure ... why the hell not ? ... because you might die ? ... the horror !!! ... or maybe you just might win and/or learn something to use the next time you are in that situation.
If SkatSr was in the P-51, I would guarantee that he would back into the Spit16 and the chances that the Spit16 would win would be very slim ... and the reason would be that SkatSr has put himself into those situations previously and has the knowledge on how he can beat that opponent. If he was a P-50run pilot, he would not be as deadly as he is in a P-51.
This thread isn't about a BnZ plane trying to TnB with a TnB plane ... it's about timidity. The guy didn't even try to make a fight out of the first encounter ... he had to fly out of icon range and only then return when Scca was already engaged to try and pick him.
Spin it anyway you want ... the guy was a grapefruit.
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Well, it's true.
Davey ... it's best to be thought a fool rather than open one's mouth and remove all doubt.
He has totally minimized what it takes to fly the slower "turners" and be successful in them ... what he has described are those who fly "turners" who aren't the least bit successful in flying them.
It takes just as much skill to fly turners, and be successful, as it does to fly a TnB plane and be successful.
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It takes just as much skill to fly turners, and be successful, as it does to fly a TnB plane and be successful.
I disagree with this completely.
In a good turning A/C , you can avoid most BnZ attacks all day and get them to fight your fight. It doesn't take much of a pilot to yank back on the stick and turn sharp to avoid.
Conversely, it doesn't take much of a pilot to BnZ all day either as they are showing no skill doing that. So I understand your point.
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i cant hit crap BnZing, that is one of the main reasons i went to the turners.
plus it just more fun of a fight IMO.
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In a good turning A/C , you can avoid most BnZ attacks all day and get them to fight your fight. It doesn't take much of a pilot to yank back on the stick and turn sharp to avoid.
Conversly, it doesn't take much of a pilot to come boring in at 400 mph ... take a possible pot shot ... yank back on the stick ... back to alt ... and then rinse and repeat ... much skilz there ... :rolleyes:
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It's nearly impossible is to convince another another person why you make a certain subjective evaluation, and that's essentially what you are demanding of the "nameless K4 pilot" (with a fair dollop of derisiveness thrown in for good measure.)
What "drives" a player to play the game in a certain chosen way is often purely subjective - a confluence of the combination of all the aspects of his/her evaluations of what activities are enjoyable, what their own skill and confidence levels relative to other players might be, and their viewpoint of which aspects of the sim are more important than others. To Scca, the K4 pilot plays the game in a way that Scca considers to be unenjoyable, and relatively pointless. To the K4 player, perhaps what's important is that through patience and perserverance he killed another player without ever putting himself at risk, like a "real pilot" would. Or perhaps he simply needs to sort out what his skill level is, and fears to commit to an engagement that he typically loses. Or perhaps he's trying out a new plane, and unsure of it (and his own) capabilities. Or perhaps... who knows? The possibilities are endless and even if 2 players fly the same sortie exactly the same way, their reasons might be entirely different.
But the truth is you guys know all this, anyway. Mostly, what your doing is simply dinging away at "that style" of game play, under the guise of asking why a player plays that way to begin with.
You don't actually care.
What you really want is for him to stop, so you can kill him instead of him killing you.
<S>
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Conversly, it doesn't take much of a pilot to come boring in at 400 mph ... take a possible pot shot ... yank back on the stick ... back to alt ... and then rinse and repeat ... much skilz there ... :rolleyes:
I said that at the end of my last post Slapshot. There are always 2 sides to the arguement.
When it comes down to the nitty gritty though, it's all about how well each pilot can fly their A/C and win the fight.
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What you really want is for him to stop, so you can kill him instead of him killing you.
Me personally ... I just want the "fight" ... of course I like to win, but if I lose ... oh well ... hopefully I learned something and at least we had a fight, and that is all I am looking for.
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I said that at the end of my last post Slapshot. There are always 2 sides to the arguement.
When it comes down to the nitty gritty though, it's all about how well each pilot can fly their A/C and win the fight.
Hence my remark to Zazen ... he is an excellent debater and I was surprised to see him "paint with a broad brush" ... so the long and short of your statement ... Well, it's true ... after our little discussion ... is wrong.
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I disagree with this completely.
In a good turning A/C , you can avoid most BnZ attacks all day and get them to fight your fight. It doesn't take much of a pilot to yank back on the stick and turn sharp to avoid.
Conversely, it doesn't take much of a pilot to BnZ all day either as they are showing no skill doing that. So I understand your point.
So what your saying then is that this game takes no skill. You just said neither tnb nor bnz take any skill. By extension, nothing in between these can take skill either since they are the two extreme ends of the spectrum.
[EDIT] I see you just edited this post.
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I am really surprised that you would paint with such a broad brush about those who fly a Spit or any other "turner".
I arbitrarily picked a Spit to simplifiy the statement, I could have just as easily picked a Hurricane and I qualified it with .....
"A big part of the reason for this is, when you're in a Spit, single-mindedly committed to the turn-fight of ultimate doom..."
In that statement I specifically refer to the Spit merely as an example and also add the mind-set of the pilot. Certainly there are poeple that fly Spits who are not "single-mindedly committed to turnfights of ultimate doom". I know there are some, because I see them at 25k in Spixteens trying to bounce people...
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Sure ... why the hell not ? ... because you might die ? ... the horror !!! ... or maybe you just might win and/or learn something to use the next time you are in that situation.
If SkatSr was in the P-51, I would guarantee that he would back into the Spit16 and the chances that the Spit16 would win would be very slim ... and the reason would be that SkatSr has put himself into those situations previously and has the knowledge on how he can beat that opponent. If he was a P-50run pilot, he would not be as deadly as he is in a P-51.
This thread isn't about a BnZ plane trying to TnB with a TnB plane ... it's about timidity. The guy didn't even try to make a fight out of the first encounter ... he had to fly out of icon range and only then return when Scca was already engaged to try and pick him.
Spin it anyway you want ... the guy was a grapefruit.
remember ren? i think he'd come out on top in a pony v spit matchup......
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I disagree with this completely.
In a good turning A/C , you can avoid most BnZ attacks all day and get them to fight your fight. It doesn't take much of a pilot to yank back on the stick and turn sharp to avoid.
negative there sir. as he avoids the passes, eventually, the e-states will somewhat equalize. if i can out turn you, i cannot keep up with you, thus you have the option to extend out and reset to your advantage. remember....if it can out turn you, it cannot outrun you. if it can outrun you, it cannot outturn you(for the most part) in slow turners, we must constantly keep our ees open, heads on the swivel, and manage what e we have very carefully. sometimes it doesn;t come back fast enough.
Conversely, it doesn't take much of a pilot to BnZ all day either as they are showing no skill doing that. So I understand your point.again, although i don't like bnz'ers, it is a completely different skill set. remember, they need to be fast enough to regain alt, but not so fast as to overshoot you horribly, or that they black out when they pull back up. they need to assess the situation very quickly to decide if they do or do not have a shot on you. should they follow you into part of that turn, or climb out and reset again? it all takes skill, and knowing your plane and your enemys plane.
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Hmmm, now I'm confused (not really an unusual state)....
You meet 4 opponents and dispatch 3 of them. The fourth obviously lacks the skill (or will) to give your spit a decent fight and refuses to commit. Hmm, 75% of your opponents fought and lost....and you want to come to the bbs and complain about the 1 guy that wouldn't let you kill him?
Yes, but it wasn't 4 at once. And the fact that it was only him down there should've givin the 109 enough spine to fight.
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remember ren? i think he'd come out on top in a pony v spit matchup......
Yes I do remember Ren ... was always fun to fly with and against him.
There is a good handful of P-51 pilots who would turn back into a Spit 16 and come out on top ... only because they have tried many times before and have succeeded and failed, and at each encounter LEARNED something.
Anybody in this game who is an "absolute" killer in their plane of choice ... has died hundreds if not thousands of deaths to become deadly, no matter the situation, in that plane.
I see a lot of post about Agent360 and his abilities in the K4 ... does anybody think that he just woke up one day and became "deadly" ... from what I have read, he has spent countless hours in the DA ... both winning and loosing (and loosing more than winning at the start) and learning to fly the K4 to it's ultimate best. I have yet to run into his K4 but one can only hope.
Had Agent360, or Messiah, or Furball, or Stang, or Killnu been in that K4, this thread never would have been made.
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It takes just as much skill to fly turners, and be successful, as it does to fly a TnB plane and be successful.
Slappy, we've been through this debate before. So, if you reread my posts on this thread you will notice I consciously never made any allusions whatsoever that the purist version of either mode requires less or more skill than another. The reason this argument intrigues me is because if you look at the extreme of each style they are different philosophically and therefore require quite unique skill-sets, not more or less skill respectively, just different skills.
TnBing is a very physical exercise, mostly a function of reflexes and muscle memory where knowledge of your plane's idiosyncrasies and those of your single opponent and how to exploit both are tantamount. I have flown with and against the best sticks over the last 18 years, reviewed a lot of film and fought my share of turn-fights and know, for a fact, once you get latched onto someone it's really pretty simple mentally from that point on. Air combat is a lot like chess, for every move there is an ideal counter-move, identifying and executing it becomes largely instinctive with experience. If you watch a lot of film and good sticks, you will also notice they tend to rely on one specific maneuver that they have honed to a fine edge, they will use this maneuver repeatedly to gain the upper hand or reverse their fortunes, the move will sometimes vary by plane choice but it is always there. It doesn't leave much to the imagination, once you're in tight with someone of comparable skill your options get more and more limited, eventually devolving to the point of a tight, usually flat, turn assuming you've ended up on the deck which is usually the case..
The problem with this is in MA and in real life for the TnB combatants is, when two equally skilled pilots in very maneuverable planes are involved, it can be rather time consuming, in a multiple plane environment every second you spend on one foe is another saddling up on your 6 or taking a highspeed gun pass. That is the ultimate source of these diametrically opposed factions.
When flying a poor turner the entire premise of your flight philosophy will be to keep your options as open as possible at all times, affording yourself multiple choice decisions to make at every critical juncture of the engagement. In a very real sense, once you've flown yourself into the predicament of having only one decision or course of action you've failed in this regard. So, in essence, the successfull TnB'ers goal is to narrow the fight down to a point of only one option, turn with me or die trying. Conversely, the poor turner's goal is to keep as many options open as possible, using decision making at precisely the correct moment in time and space as the deciding factor, not the turn-rate of his aircraft...So, one method doesn't necessarily require more skill than another but strictly TnB'ing is, without a doubt, less complex, outcomes are based more so on physical attributes of the plane and pilot not so much the mental acuity of sound decision making.
In my opinion, a TnBer whining about a poorer turning plane using speed to engage and disengage at will is as rediculous as a poor turner whining that a Hurricane used a hard turn to avoid getting shot down by him.
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Yes I do remember Ren ... was always fun to fly with and against him.
There is a good handful of P-51 pilots who would turn back into a Spit 16 and come out on top ... only because they have tried many times before and have succeeded and failed, and at each encounter LEARNED something.
Anybody in this game who is an "absolute" killer in their plane of choice ... has died hundreds if not thousands of deaths to become deadly, no matter the situation, in that plane.
I see a lot of post about Agent360 and his abilities in the K4 ... does anybody think that he just woke up one day and became "deadly" ... from what I have read, he has spent countless hours in the DA ... both winning and loosing (and loosing more than winning at the start) and learning to fly the K4 to it's ultimate best. I have yet to run into his K4 but one can only hope.
Had Agent360, or Messiah, or Furball, or Stang, or Killnu been in that K4, this thread never would have been made.
+1
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You call me a dolt, for a simple spelling error, yet you were unable to understand the simple concept outlined in this thread.
Sure I do. You didn't like the way the other guy flew, your SA was overwhelmed by trying to track 2 targets and you got picked. So you came to the BBS and, with your diaper full of goo, cried like one of my two year olds because someone isn't playing the game the way you think they should. The game is designed for all types of flying styles, even timid ones. Nobody put you in charge of how people should fly.
Your attitude makes this quite clear to me(I'm an expert in this): you need some cream for your diaper rash and a nap. Go get your mommy and have her put you in your crib, then maybe we can talk after your nap. :aok
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In my opinion, a TnBer whining about a poorer turning plane using speed to engage and disengage at will is as rediculous as a poor turner whining that a Hurricane used a hard turn to avoid getting shot down by him.
Zazen, there is a distinct difference between using a planes strengths and leaving the fight returning only after the con is otherwise engaged. I wouldn't expect a K4 to voluntarily turn with Spit IX, but running miles away to save your hide is ludicrous.
I will say again, using your team mates as bait to better your score deplorable.
(BTW Zazen, you spelled ridiculous wrong, Steve will be along shortly to call you a dolt, I am okay with it)
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Zazen, there is a distinct difference between using a planes strengths and leaving the fight returning only after the con is otherwise engaged. I wouldn't expect a K4 to voluntarily turn with Spit IX, but running miles away to save your hide is ludicrous.
I will say again, using your team mates as bait to better your score deplorable.
(BTW Zazen, you spelled ridiculous wrong, Steve will be along shortly to call you a dolt, I am okay with it)
Zazen you dolt! :lol
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Zazen, there is a distinct difference between using a planes strengths and leaving the fight returning only after the con is otherwise engaged. I wouldn't expect a K4 to voluntarily turn with Spit IX, but running miles away to save your hide is ludicrous.
If you've put him in a position where you've negated his energy advantage to the point you've forced him to disengage you've scored a victory of sorts. Part of the frustration for the slow turner is that, often, that moral victory of stalemating a faster opponent is not consummated by a kill. Forcing a poor turner to the point where his only viable decisions are to disengage or fight a turner's fight is a victory. The whole premise of flying a poor turner, what I coin an initiative fighter, is to always have as many options as possible. As a TnB'er your goal is to reduce those options as much as possible, hopefully to the point where he can no longer disengage, leaving no option but to turn with you. You can't realistically expect a poorer turner to continue to fight on your terms, where you have all the advantages, if he has an option to do otherwise
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Sure I do. You didn't like the way the other guy flew, your SA was overwhelmed by trying to track 2 targets and you got picked. So you came to the BBS and, with your diaper full of goo, cried like one of my two year olds because someone isn't playing the game the way you think they should. The game is designed for all types of flying styles, even timid ones. Nobody put you in charge of how people should fly.
Your attitude makes this quite clear to me(I'm an expert in this): you need some cream for your diaper rash and a nap. Go get your mommy and have her put you in your crib, then maybe we can talk after your nap. :aok
Beyond story labeled "The set up" lets review the question I asked
Pickers and runners, please help me understand what is the fascination with this style of game play. Maybe it's a "your $15" thing, but what possible enjoyment can someone get from only engaging cons when they are already engaged and running from a 1v1 when you have an E advantage? To me, 90% of the fun is the fight, not the winner. I am so confused..
Didn't say I was in charge of anything and don't see any crying there. I am not arguing the fact that this game is anything you want it to be. I want to know what motivates timid players to play as I described in the "set up". That's all. I am sorry you are having such a hard time understanding what was asked. It was a simple question, I am not complaining at all, I am just on a fact finding mission for which I thank all who have added to the thread, including you. Your perspective has helped me understand the mind of a timid player.
Steve, perhaps you should... actually, never mind, with so little to stop it's passage, it would have gone in one of your ears and out the other. I will reserve my thoughts on your cranial deficiencies.
.squelch Steve
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Spin it anyway you want ... the guy was a grapefruit.
Quoted for truth..
You don't actually care.
What you really want is for him to stop, so you can kill him instead of him killing you.
No... Some players do almost nothing but fly that timid way, and it boggles the mind of other players. Hence the puzzlement to the point of starting a thread asking for others' help in making sense of it.I for one would like to know what motivates these timid players. Could one of you timid players please explain why you play a PvP centric game and refuse to fight?
Anaxagoras is the guy you want to ask this to.
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n/t
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If you've put him in a position where you've negated his energy advantage to the point you've forced him to disengage you've scored a victory of sorts. Part of the frustration for the slow turner is that, often, that moral victory of stalemating a faster opponent is not consummated by a kill. Forcing a poor turner to the point where his only viable decisions are to disengage or fight a turner's fight is a victory. The whole premise of flying a poor turner, what I coin an initiative fighter, is to always have as many options as possible. As a TnB'er your goal is to reduce those options as much as possible, hopefully to the point where he can't disengage andh as no choice but to turn with you. You can't realistically expect a poorer turner to continue to fight on your terms, where you have all the advantages, if he has an option to do otherwise
Your absolutely correct ... but that was not the point of the thread.
The K4 made no attempt to fight when presented with the 1 v 1 ... had he engaged and then disengaged, if put into a non-winning position, to reset the fight ... then I don't think Scca would have created this thread ... whether he lost or won.
It was the fact that the K4 made a couple (or one) pass, probably hoping to get lucky ... extended beyond icon range and only returned, and enter the fight with any fervor, because Scca was already engaged.
Personally ... I do and don't understand this mentality.
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I am not arguing the fact that this game is anything you want it to be.
Why play an on-line multi-player sim, when all you do is run away when confronted with the very thing that the simulation was designed for, online air combat? My desire is to understand the mental defect that thinks this style of play is fun.
You should keep track of whay you type. You've already posted that a person who doesn't fly a way you approve of had a mental defect. TRy to keep you blabbering straight. Maybe after your nap, you'll be thinking more clearly. :aok
.squelch Steve
Translation: I can't have a discussion with differing viewpoints than mine without insulting the other person. When it turns out that the other person is more clever than I, I run home with my tail between my legs instead of calming down and being rational. Surrender.
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It was the fact that the K4 made a couple (or one) pass, probably hoping to get lucky ... extended beyond icon range and only returned,
His first post doesn't make any mention of extending out of icon range.
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Your absolutely correct ... but that was not the point of the thread.
The K4 made no attempt to fight when presented with the 1 v 1 ... had he engaged and then disengaged, if put into a non-winning position, to reset the fight ... then I don't think Scca would have created this thread ... whether he lost or won.
It was the fact that the K4 made a couple (or one) pass, probably hoping to get lucky ... extended beyond icon range and only returned, and enter the fight with any fervor, because Scca was already engaged.
Personally ... I do and don't understand this mentality.
Well said. I think SlapShot gets it. Not only the question, but shares the confusion I have.
p.s. The quote from Guppy in your sig is very relevant to this discussion.
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I would be happy to do that. You and I have tangled before. I would likely loose, but it will be fun.
By the way, if you are again going to take shots at a person's intellect, you should learn the difference between "loose" and "lose". I accept your surrender. :aok
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The K4 made no attempt to fight when presented with the 1 v 1 ... had he engaged and then disengaged, if put into a non-winning position, to reset the fight ... then I don't think Scca would have created this thread ... whether he lost or won.
I am not going to try to make excuses for the mystery 109 pilot as we have only Scca's subjective version of events to go on. But, I will say that if it played out as he says the 109 pilot is a prime example of someone not flying aggressively enough to make him effective/dangerous. It sounds to me like he spent 15-20 minutes to eventually get 1 kill. He succeeded in leaving himself choices, but failed to effectively use those decisions to maintain then reattain the initiative and exploit it in a timely manner. The arena is full of these relatively harmless types, you can tell who they are because they only get 2-3 kills/Hr. There is always a delicate balance in flying a poor turner of being aggressive enough to kill efficiently and so loose you quickly run out of options and get killed. It takes a lot of experience to learn to ride that razor's edge to maximum effectiveness. It sounds to me like the 109 driver was inexperienced and/or insecure with his ability/plane.
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Steve, I doubt you'd "approve" of me if I picked you off every single time you'd just started a really good 1:1. Nevermind if I bragged about it after the fact.... "Haha Steve, you got PWND!".
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Steve,
I can't quite fathom why you are taking the picker and runner side.
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He isn't. But he is painting SCCA as some guy whose SA failed him.. And that's not SCCA's point. SCCA's point is that the K4 earned a SHALLOW victory. A victory that's no more worth bragging about than a vulch. A kill that SCCA's trying to make sense of given that the game allows us to die over and over, effectively removing "death" from the equation and hence making the game absolutely about what we can do regardless of "death". The game allows us to bet everything on what we know we are capable of doing, regardless of the risk of dying before we can do it. The game is meant to bring out the best out of us, not the worst. SCCA's query is about making sense of players who can't recognize that opportunity.
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Steve, I doubt you'd "approve" of me if I picked you off every single time you'd just started a really good 1:1. Nevermind if I bragged about it after the fact.... "Haha Steve, you got PWND!".
Heheh, that didn't happen to Scca, but you are right.
I'm not condoning what the k4 allegedly did. I think smack talk on 200 is perfectly appropriate but started a pointless thread on the bbs merely seems like whining to me. That's been my point all along.
Back to the k4... who knows what he was thinking? Maybe he's a spit hater and didn't want to give the spit a chance. Maybe Scca picked him in he previous fight and he's looking for some similar payback. Maybe Scca vulched him 6 times straight the day before. I'm not approving of the k4's actions.... it just seems like a whiner thread to me. The OP couldn't track the second con and got picked, he didn't like it.
We all get picked now and then, even rant about it on 200 from time to time. Can you imagine how many pointless threads we'd have on the bbs if someone came her to whine every time they got picked?
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He isn't. But he is painting SCCA as some guy whose SA failed him.. And that's not SCCA's point. SCCA's point is that the K4 earned a SHALLOW victory. A victory that's no more worth bragging about than a vulch.
Well, Scca's point is that he feels this style of play is not what the game was designed for, and that it is somehow inferior to how he plays. This is where I became interested.
Pickers and runners, please help me understand what is the fascination with this style of game play. Maybe it's a "your $15" thing, but what possible enjoyment can someone get from only engaging cons when they are already engaged and running from a 1v1 when you have an E advantage? To me, 90% of the fun is the fight, not the winner. I am so confused..
My desire is to understand the mental defect that thinks this style of play is fun.
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No... Some players do almost nothing but fly that timid way, and it boggles the mind of other players. Hence the puzzlement to the point of starting a thread asking for others' help in making sense of it.
SCCA's query is about making sense of players who can't recognize that opportunity.
I can't honestly believe that the "puzzlement" you are referring to is anything but disingenuous given the snubs when referring to the players who play that way, including the one from SCCA who started the thread.
ink - because thats all they can do. and when they pick you off of someones 6, they think they helped there teammate. Hehe! Hehe! makes em feel like a man.
Sunka ... people that do nothing but pick are just scared skilless dweebs
olskool2 ...it's the way they go about not wanting to be killed, and then come to kill a pilot, they otherwise couldn't, with a pick.
Scca ... My desire is to understand the mental defect that thinks this style of play is fun.
In my opinion, Scca inadvertently discloses the point of the entire thread when he says "Only once in a while, when I don't have the time or patience to play with a pick/runner do I get frustrated."
Lusche opined earlier that this thread is really a disguised rant, and I tend to agree. Just because some (or maybe even most) pilots in AH are into instant gratification, why is it so "disturbing" that a player - who may have had any number of reasons for doing so - took another route to enjoyment (assuming of course that he enjoyed his flying)?
<S>
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Fly anyway you want, have fun.
That said, I don't have much in the way of respect for the guy who takes little risk to get scalps.
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moot is spot on :aok
some of the flying that went on during the ava Bofb setup was as described.
Great fights against decent emil flyers thrila, gian, bubi even came down from alt in his 110 to tangle with me. Gavagai seems to have some sort of built in defence mechanism of never engaging unless with numbers. Its smart/cowardly whatever angle you look at it. live on the edge every now and again and you might enjoy it as others have stated.
Pffft Bruv. You were simply sore because I flew my airplane's strengths and didn't get low and slow with you like those "brave" pilots. As for flying with friendlies, you were one of the best examples of that in the BoB ava. You would act all puffed up and manly as soon as you had 2-3 friends to chase me with.
I certainly enjoyed shooting you down because you whined about it on 200. :D
----------------I can't honestly believe that the "puzzlement" you are referring to is anything but disingenuous given the snubs when referring to the players who play that way, including the one from SCCA who started the thread.
ink - because thats all they can do. and when they pick you off of someones 6, they think they helped there teammate. Hehe! Hehe! makes em feel like a man.
Sunka ... people that do nothing but pick are just scared skilless dweebs
olskool2 ...it's the way they go about not wanting to be killed, and then come to kill a pilot, they otherwise couldn't, with a pick.
Scca ... My desire is to understand the mental defect that thinks this style of play is fun.
In my opinion, Scca inadvertently discloses the point of the entire thread when he says
Lusche opined earlier that this thread is really a disguised rant, and I tend to agree. Just because some (or maybe even most) pilots in AH are into instant gratification, why is it so "disturbing" that a player - who may have had any number of reasons for doing so - took another route to enjoyment (assuming of course that he enjoyed his flying)?
<S>
Well put ghastly. The one point I'd add is that this thread is full of invective and informal fallacies like slanting and ad hominem. What people here call "timid" is usually "temperance." Aristotle talked about being in the middle of two extremes as the ideal of the virtuous man. In our case, we have three T's :D: timidity, temperance and temerity. The vitriolic ones here want everyone to fly dissimilar aircraft in the same way, which would be a kind of temerity.
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I can't honestly believe that the "puzzlement" you are referring to is anything but disingenuous given the snubs when referring to the players who play that way, including the one from SCCA who started the thread.
ink - because thats all they can do. and when they pick you off of someones 6, they think they helped there teammate. Hehe! Hehe! makes em feel like a man.
Sunka ... people that do nothing but pick are just scared skilless dweebs
olskool2 ...it's the way they go about not wanting to be killed, and then come to kill a pilot, they otherwise couldn't, with a pick.
Scca ... My desire is to understand the mental defect that thinks this style of play is fun.
In my opinion, Scca inadvertently discloses the point of the entire thread when he says
Lusche opined earlier that this thread is really a disguised rant, and I tend to agree. Just because some (or maybe even most) pilots in AH are into instant gratification, why is it so "disturbing" that a player - who may have had any number of reasons for doing so - took another route to enjoyment (assuming of course that he enjoyed his flying)?
<S>
Another that gets it.
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Fly to live -> Staid Simulation
Fly to fight (cartoon planes and lives are cheap) -> Gamey Game
This post -> me just being a muckrake. :devil
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Well, Scca's point is that he feels this style of play is not what the game was designed for, and that it is somehow inferior to how he plays. This is where I became interested.
Yes, in actuality, as I have mentioned, fighter aircraft and therefore their equivalent models in AH were specifically designed to mutually assist one another. Ironically, in direct opposition to gamer's tendency toward "internet bravado", fighter planes and the tactics developed to be used by them were, almost without exception, conceived to be employed in mutual support and close coordination with 1 or more friendlies. Virtually the entire span of tactical fighter dogma is predicated upon more than two participating aircraft operating in such a way as to ensure that an enemy fighter engaging one foe must, in turn, present himself as a target to another. The mythology of the 1 vs 1 duel, where there is no risk of rendering yourself vulnerable to a 3rd party attack, is a contrivance of complete gaming fiction. Fighter combat and aircraft from their inception to the present have always been about operating in a mutually supportive way.
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I can't honestly believe that the "puzzlement" you are referring to is anything but disingenuous given the snubs when referring to the players who play that way, including the one from SCCA who started the thread.
ink - because thats all they can do. and when they pick you off of someones 6, they think they helped there teammate. Hehe! Hehe! makes em feel like a man.
Sunka ... people that do nothing but pick are just scared skilless dweebs
olskool2 ...it's the way they go about not wanting to be killed, and then come to kill a pilot, they otherwise couldn't, with a pick.
Scca ... My desire is to understand the mental defect that thinks this style of play is fun.
Lusche opined earlier that this thread is really a disguised rant, and I tend to agree. Just because some (or maybe even most) pilots in AH are into instant gratification, why is it so "disturbing" that a player - who may have had any number of reasons for doing so - took another route to enjoyment (assuming of course that he enjoyed his flying)?
<S>
Actually, I do really desire to know the answer, but don't think I am going to get a real one here. What I have assembled so far from these pages of posts is it boils down to personal preference, and I may never understand it. It all comes down to the "it's my $15" theory I think.
Each gains enjoyment in their own way. The mental defect comment was a little strong maybe, wish I could take that one back, but it seems by the comments I am not the only one who thinks that way.
Thanks again for all the thoughts posted here.
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Scca, what would count as a real answer? If you really want to go psychological, temperament theory might give you something to work with.
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Scca, what would count as a real answer? If you really want to go psychological, temperament theory might give you something to work with.
The closest to a real answer so far has been Zazen I think. Though this isn't real life, perhaps people desire get into the game so much that they think they are in real combat (you know, the leather helmet, fan behind monitor crowd). To them, it's not about the fight, but the landing, and I am cool with that.
Some day I hope to understand, because in understanding we learn.
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Wow, was that your evil twin yesterday? You seem like a new man with a positive attitude! :aok
For my part, I fly however I can kill as expediently as possible, and that depends on the aircraft I'm in. Every now and then, I fly a 109F in the arena (it's been a while) for base defense, and the way I fly it would probably win the approval of my detractors. It goes without saying that I die a lot more that way... :lol
To them, it's not about the fight, but the landing, and I am cool with that.
You do realize that there's a whole cadre of virtual pilots here that think landing is unmanly too, right? :P
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I can't honestly believe that the "puzzlement" you are referring to is anything but disingenuous given the snubs when referring to the players who play that way, including the one from SCCA who started the thread.
ink - because thats all they can do. and when they pick you off of someones 6, they think they helped there teammate. Hehe! Hehe! makes em feel like a man.
Sunka ... people that do nothing but pick are just scared skilless dweebs
olskool2 ...it's the way they go about not wanting to be killed, and then come to kill a pilot, they otherwise couldn't, with a pick.
Scca ... My desire is to understand the mental defect that thinks this style of play is fun.
In my opinion, Scca inadvertently discloses the point of the entire thread when he says
Lusche opined earlier that this thread is really a disguised rant, and I tend to agree. Just because some (or maybe even most) pilots in AH are into instant gratification, why is it so "disturbing" that a player - who may have had any number of reasons for doing so - took another route to enjoyment (assuming of course that he enjoyed his flying)?
<S>
Agree to disagree I guess. SCCA isn't just ranting. He's ranting about something that makes no sense, and like I said he's asking for someone to fill the missing part in his puzzle, to make sense out of it. I think it's disingenuous to pretend there's enjoyment in being an absolute timid pick tard, to pretend that that enjoyment's on par with the enjoyment of the fight for all it (the fight) is worth. The same way some pretend there is enjoyment out of sinking a CV with a great furball attached to it rather than some other CV in the middle of nowhere. Those guys are after the gratification of having an effect on others' fun, even if that gratification is the result of nothing more than pushing "B" from 10kft above the furball, with no more effort to show for it than calibrating the F6 bombsight. This is the same state of mind that makes internet hackers get their rocks off by screwing with the whole world with their "denial of service" attacks on random websites.
Those guys are after nothing else than boinking with others' fun, at the expense of AIR COMBAT. The game would be better off without them.
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Well, Scca's point is that he feels this style of play is not what the game was designed for, and that it is somehow inferior to how he plays. This is where I became interested.
It is inferior. Picking and running is the shallowest form of gameplay there is. That's pretty much the general consensus around the AH community.
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Wow, was that your evil twin yesterday? You seem like a new man with a positive attitude! :aok
For my part, I fly however I can kill as expediently as possible, and that depends on the aircraft I'm in. Every now and then, I fly a 109F in the arena (it's been a while) for base defense, and the way I fly it would probably win the approval of my detractors. It goes without saying that I die a lot more that way... :lol
You do realize that there's a whole cadre of virtual pilots here that think landing is unmanly too, right? :P
I may not agree with the style of play I am asking about, nor do I understand it, but do agree that it's their right to do so. One day I will run into this guy and when I do, I will get in a K4, and see what he is really made of. I have to do it this way as I am sure he hasn't big enough swingers to DA me co E/alt. He may be better, but judging from the scores page, I better do it before summer vacation is over and his account is closed.
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The closest to a real answer so far has been Zazen I think. Though this isn't real life, perhaps people desire get into the game so much that they think they are in real combat (you know, the leather helmet, fan behind monitor crowd). To them, it's not about the fight, but the landing, and I am cool with that.
Some day I hope to understand, because in understanding we learn.
I think you've almost got it. But, it's not about the landing or not about the fight. It's about working the entire engagement not just a single enemy you've arbitrarily chosen to engage. It's about making all the right decisions at all the right times to kill as efficiently as possible while at the same time retaining the initiative.
For example...A TnB'er might think, "I am going to kill plane X", then engage him then sequentially engage another depending on the outcome. An initiative fighter might instead look at the entire engagement, sector or area attempting to work out how to play with potentially all of the enemy non-sequentially for maximum effectiveness while not getting limited to the point where he has to turn with one particular plane or die. Think of it as looking at the entire forest vs. just looking at just one tree. Sure, we could subjectively say some of the initiative fighter's kills are not as qualitatively "pure" in the chivalrous sense, some will be, some won't. The fun is in playing the big picture, working the initiative into opportunities to kill and getting away with it.
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It is inferior. Picking and running is the shallowest form of gameplay there is. That's pretty much the general consensus around the AH community.
Well, perhaps anyone who feels this way should also look for the "all co-alt turn fighters arena" too then. :aok
I think they varying styles in the MA makes it more interesting. If everyone flew the same way, bordom whould ensue. IMHO
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One day I will run into this guy and when I do, I will get in a K4, and see what he is really made of.
if your going to expose the community to your self adulating whinery about runners and pickers at least make it interesting, this stuff isn't even worthy of comic books.
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I think you've almost got it. But, it's not about the landing or not about the fight. It's about working the entire engagement not just a single enemy. It's about making all the right decisions at all the right times to kill as efficiently as possible while at the same time retaining the initiative.
For example...A TnB'er might think, "I am going to kill plane X", then engage him. An initiative fighter might instead look at the entire engagement, sector or area attempting to work out how to play with potentially all of the enemy and friendlies for maximum effectiveness while not getting limited to the point where he has to turn with plane X or die. Think of it as looking at the entire forest vs. just looking at one tree. Sure, we could subjectively say some of the initiative fighter's kills are not as "pure" in the chivalrous sense, some will be, some won't. The fun is in playing the big picture, working the initiative into opportunities to kill and getting away with it.
Great insight, thanks.
I just made an odd connection. Three of the main players on the pro-picker side are in the same squad. Maybe the connection isn't all that odd after all (birds of a feather).
<S> guys
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Agree to disagree I guess. SCCA isn't just ranting. He's ranting about something that makes no sense, and like I said he's asking for someone to fill the missing part in his puzzle, to make sense out of it. I think it's disingenuous to pretend there's enjoyment in being an absolute timid pick tard, to pretend that that enjoyment's on par with the enjoyment of the fight for all it (the fight) is worth. The same way some pretend there is enjoyment out of sinking a CV with a great furball attached to it rather than some other CV in the middle of nowhere. Those guys are after the gratification of having an effect on others' fun, even if that gratification is the result of nothing more than pushing "B" from 10kft above the furball, with no more effort to show for it than calibrating the F6 bombsight. This is the same state of mind that makes internet hackers get their rocks off by screwing with the whole world with their "denial of service" attacks on random websites.
Those guys are after nothing else than boinking with others' fun, at the expense of AIR COMBAT. The game would be better off without them.
Moot,
The enjoyment is in the reaction. I'm very rarely put in the role of picker but its an inevitability. Now normally I'm flying in the 8-12k band in an A-20 or a P-39D so "pick" is a relative term. However invariably when balancing my offensive opportunities vs my defensive liabilities I'm confronted with both a higher con and a lower one. Normally the higher con is unengaged and often the lower con (normally cons) is at least broadly engaged/involved. As a general rule I'll initially orient to the higher con...the moment he refuses my offer of neg E engagement with an immelman I'll split S to the lower fight. My basic statement reasoning is i'm not gonna sit in the high traffic alt playing with a B&Z picktard open to either a drive bt mugging or a guy who zoomed the fight underneath and can easily follow me up from the deck.
Now the simple reality is that very often (but not always) I'm going to orient on a target below and score some hits as I swoop on down. A week or two ago I dropped on the same 38 driver every time by chance....of course I was a "picktard" for picking off a "1 on 1". Now whats funny is each time I watched the 38 drop on a lower con...so he was in fact picked of a bounce not a "fair fight". But beyond that in the TT enviornment invariably you start as a picker and end as a pickee as new planes force the existing ones to defend.
Now the simple reality is I got such a chuckle out of the 1st time and his comments I had to look for a 38 the second time...and the 3rd and so on. Of course eventually I ran into a guy who could A) actually fly the 38 & B) had some decent SA and he promptly avoided me and eventually got me to co-e (at which point the A-20 is a 38 pinata)....
So I think the reality is that the habitual picker lives for the reaction to the kill, not the fight itself.
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Well, perhaps anyone who feels this way should also look for the "all co-alt turn fighters arena" too then. :aok
I think they varying styles in the MA makes it more interesting. If everyone flew the same way, bordom whould ensue. IMHO
Nothing wrong with a bit of BnZ. Everyone does it.
What gets me are the Doras and Ponies that go in for 1 BnZ pass and extend for a sector. What also irks me are the players, like Scca said, who wait until an enemy is engaged with someone else in order to get an easy pick. That to me is pansy, timid, and "cowardly" flying if I've ever seen it.
I've no problem with being shot down 1 v 1 by a good stick in a fair fight. It teaches me what I did wrong and what I could have done better. The main reason I get worked up alot is because of getting picked while in a great 1 v 1 fight, but go figure, thats the MA for you right there.
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Great insight, thanks.
I just made an odd connection. Three of the main players on the pro-picker side are in the same squad. Maybe the connection isn't all that odd after all (birds of a feather).
<S> guys
There you go again, right after you were showing signs of progress. For myself, I'm not pro picker. I believe in choice and also the right of a person to fly a plane how they choose. That said, I also believe in poking fun at them on 200. I don't believe in pontificating on how my chosen style of play is somehow superior to another's.
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What gets me are the Doras and Ponies that go in for 1 BnZ pass and extend for a sector.
FWIW, I don't see the point in this either.
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Well said. I think SlapShot gets it. Not only the question, but shares the confusion I have.
p.s. The quote from Guppy in your sig is very relevant to this discussion.
Please note that some that are defending the timid 109 you encountered are the same type of flyer the 109 is.
ack-ack
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What gets me are the Doras and Ponies that go in for 1 BnZ pass and extend for a sector. What also irks me are the players, like Scca said, who wait until an enemy is engaged with someone else in order to get an easy pick. That to me is pansy, timid, and "cowardly" flying if I've ever seen it.
Firstly, anyone who habitually takes one highspeed pass and extends for a sector is going to be so grossly ineffective they are a non-factor. They are the ones who get 2-3 kills an hour instead of 10+. Sure, if you're one of the unlucky 2-3 they managed to shoot the tailfeathers off of that hour it's annoying. But, be assured that their total lack of aggressive spirit is rendering them all but useless in the big scheme of things.
Secondly, as I've said a couple of times now. This sacred cow of the hermetically sealed 1 vs. 1 is a pure contrivance of gaming. Fighters and fighter tactics were specifically designed and employed to mutually support. If there was no intrinsic vulnerability to the tunnel vision that is the 1 vs 1 to the exclusion of all else we'd all be flying Zekes <insert your favorite turner here>. What makes fighter combat really interesting is exactly the fact that everytime you engage a bandit you render yourself vulnerable to attack. The longer it takes you to kill the more your energy state degrades and the more vulnerable you become. The fact that you cannot fly offensively and defensively at the same time is the ultimate "checks and balances" system of air combat, that's why wingmen are crucial to successful fighter tactics, one can fly offensively while the other worries about defense (clearing his six/cherry picking). If everyone was able to individually fly 100% offensively all the time with no fear of being attacked when attacking another the game would devolve into 300 1 vs 1 Zeke duels very quickly with very little variety, teamwork or tactics.
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I think it's disingenuous to pretend there's enjoyment in being an absolute timid pick tard, to pretend that that enjoyment's on par with the enjoyment of the fight for all it (the fight) is worth. The same way some pretend there is enjoyment out of sinking a CV with a great furball attached to it rather than some other CV in the middle of nowhere. Those guys are after the gratification of having an effect on others' fun, even if that gratification is the result of nothing more than pushing "B" from 10kft above the furball, with no more effort to show for it than calibrating the F6 bombsight.
Moot, what's disingenuous about accepting the fact that others might enjoy something that you do not, even if you don't really understand it? How do you know that everyone who does so is only pretending to enjoy it? Perhaps for some the enjoyment of landing a kill (or no kills) is more enjoyable than killing a dozen planes in a sortie if they are going to get killed in the process? Or perhaps for some, the joy of the fight itself doesn't outweigh whatever they perceive as negative in getting killed?
With respect to the CV, if there is a battle over it, how often is it near enough to somewhere to make it a reasonable target having nothing to do with how many players are flying to/from it? How do you know that maybe even that someone with an eye for strategy doesn't feel that the resources tied up defending against it couldn't be better used elsewhere, and so it should be taken out?
The point I'm making is that there are a lot of reasons why someone might choose to play a certain way - and often times I'm fairly sure that many of them probably don't as much sense to anyone else as the player who chooses might believe. But you appear to assume that if someone doesn't value the same things you do when it comes to game play, then the obvious prime motivation in playing differently than you would is solely to vex you, and I rather doubt that that is the case. If you feel that way, I sure can't stop you or argue you out of it - and I'm pretty sure that you won't be able to explain it so that I can understand it! ;)
<S>
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This sacred cow of the hermetically sealed 1 vs. 1 is a contrivance of gaming. If there was no intrinsic vulnerability to the tunnel vision that is the 1 vs 1 to the exclusion of all else we'd all be flying Zekes <insert your favorite turner here>. What makes fighter combat really interesting is exactly the fact that everytime you engage a bandit you render yourself vulnerable to attack. The longer it takes you to kill the more your energy state degrades and the more vulnerable you become. The fact that you cannot fly offensively and defensively at the same time is the ultimate "checks and balances" system of air combat, that's why wingmen are crucial to successful fighter tactics, one can fly offensively while the other worries about defense. If everyone was able to individually fly 100% offensively all the time with no fear of being attacked when attacking another the game would devolve into 300 1 vs 1 Zeke duels very quickly with no variety, teamwork or tactics.
This is excellent thinking. Made this retarded thread worth reading through to get to.
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Yes I do remember Ren ... was always fun to fly with and against him.
There is a good handful of P-51 pilots who would turn back into a Spit 16 and come out on top ... only because they have tried many times before and have succeeded and failed, and at each encounter LEARNED something.
Anybody in this game who is an "absolute" killer in their plane of choice ... has died hundreds if not thousands of deaths to become deadly, no matter the situation, in that plane.
I see a lot of post about Agent360 and his abilities in the K4 ... does anybody think that he just woke up one day and became "deadly" ... from what I have read, he has spent countless hours in the DA ... both winning and loosing (and loosing more than winning at the start) and learning to fly the K4 to it's ultimate best. I have yet to run into his K4 but one can only hope.
Had Agent360, or Messiah, or Furball, or Stang, or Killnu been in that K4, this thread never would have been made.
But skank sucks.... :D
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It is inferior. Picking and running is the shallowest form of gameplay there is. That's pretty much the general consensus around the AH community.
I agree. It's equivalent to picking a fist fight with someone, walking away, only to return when your friend gets involved and hitting your opponent in the head with a hammer when their back it turned.
Sure, on paper it's a win, but there are few people that would say you really won the fight.
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I think you've almost got it. But, it's not about the landing or not about the fight. It's about working the entire engagement not just a single enemy you've arbitrarily chosen to engage. It's about making all the right decisions at all the right times to kill as efficiently as possible while at the same time retaining the initiative.
For example...A TnB'er might think, "I am going to kill plane X", then engage him then sequentially engage another depending on the outcome. An initiative fighter might instead look at the entire engagement, sector or area attempting to work out how to play with potentially all of the enemy non-sequentially for maximum effectiveness while not getting limited to the point where he has to turn with one particular plane or die. Think of it as looking at the entire forest vs. just looking at just one tree. Sure, we could subjectively say some of the initiative fighter's kills are not as qualitatively "pure" in the chivalrous sense, some will be, some won't. The fun is in playing the big picture, working the initiative into opportunities to kill and getting away with it.
Beautifully explained ... under just those circumstances.
I consider myself a dyed in the wool TnBer ... but under the right circumstances, I will turn into a BnZer (I do know how to BnZ).
If I am flying in an F6F and encounter multiples, and if they are below me, I will scan them and mentally pick an order in which to attack them so as maximize my advantage. I will not pick the 1st guy and then start a TnB session with him. If I can't get him on the 1st pass, it's up I go, re-evaluate and then back in again. I will continue this until all are dead or I made a mistake in judgment and died as a result ... because I really don't care if I die ... I am there for the challenge and it is the taking on of the challenge that is the reward for me ... not getting wheels on the runway.
Now, on the other hand, if I am flying along in an F6F and I see a lone 190/109/whatever, I will turn to engage and let the chips fall where they may and could only hope for a palm sweating, heart pumping fight ... win or lose.
Never ... and I repeat ... never will I turn tail thinking ... zOMG there is a 109 and he just may hand me my arse so I better bug out and maybe come back and whack him while one of my countrymen has him all tied up.
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Firstly, anyone who habitually takes one highspeed pass and extends for a sector is going to be so grossly ineffective they are a non-factor. They are the ones who get 2-3 kills an hour instead of 10+. Sure, if you're one of the unlucky 2-3 they managed to shoot the tailfeathers off of that hour it's annoying. But, be assured that their total lack of aggressive spirit is rendering them all but useless in the big scheme of things.
Secondly, as I've said a couple of times now. This sacred cow of the hermetically sealed 1 vs. 1 is a pure contrivance of gaming. Fighters and fighter tactics were specifically designed and employed to mutually support. If there was no intrinsic vulnerability to the tunnel vision that is the 1 vs 1 to the exclusion of all else we'd all be flying Zekes <insert your favorite turner here>. What makes fighter combat really interesting is exactly the fact that everytime you engage a bandit you render yourself vulnerable to attack. The longer it takes you to kill the more your energy state degrades and the more vulnerable you become. The fact that you cannot fly offensively and defensively at the same time is the ultimate "checks and balances" system of air combat, that's why wingmen are crucial to successful fighter tactics, one can fly offensively while the other worries about defense (clearing his six/cherry picking). If everyone was able to individually fly 100% offensively all the time with no fear of being attacked when attacking another the game would devolve into 300 1 vs 1 Zeke duels very quickly with very little variety, teamwork or tactics.
Great post! :aok
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I agree. It's equivalent to picking a fist fight with someone, walking away, only to return when your friend gets involved and hitting your opponent in the head with a hammer when their back it turned.
Sure, on paper it's a win, but there are few people that would say you really won the fight.
There's nothing "fair" about this. Unless you're Co-alt, Co-E, same load-out, in the exact same plane with no other cons intervening it's already "unfair" in some regard. There are so many variables that true "fairness" is virtually unattainable. The closest we can come to fair is each flying our respective planes in a manner conducive to exploiting it's strengths while minimizing its weaknesses while at the same time exploiting the weaknesses of the opponent, whoever can do that better will almost always win.
The funny thing is, if you really want to know the most fair way to fight, it's the HO.The HO is the most democratic form of engagement, a coin flip in almost every situation. So, if you want "fairness" in the MA we'd all have to fly Co-alt, Co-E, Spits with 50% gas at 2k and HO each other all day, won't that be fun...;) I personally prefer the current setup of complete "unfairness" with an almost infinite variety of adaptive styles, tactics and situations.
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There's nothing "fair" about this. Unless you're Co-alt, Co-E, same load-out, in the exact same plane with no other cons intervening it's already "unfair" in some regard. There are so many variables that true "fairness" is virtually unattainable. The closest we can come to fair is each flying our respective planes in a manner conducive to exploiting it's strengths while minimizing its weaknesses while at the same time exploiting the weaknesses of the opponent, whoever can do that better will almost always win.
The funny thing is, if you really want to know the most fair way to fight, it's the HO.The HO is the most democratic form of engagement, a coin flip in almost every situation. So, if you want "fairness" in the MA we'd all have to fly Co-alt, Co-E, Spits with 50% gas at 2k and HO each other all day, won't that be fun...;) I personally prefer the current setup of complete "unfairness" with an almost infinite variety of adaptive styles, tactics and situations.
Fair ? ... we weren't debating the fairness of it all ... we were debating sack or sack-less-ness ... :confused:
Hey ... who let you out of the insane asylum anyways ? ... you, for all intents and purposes, vanished into thin air, and it now appears that you are back with a vengeance ... I like it.
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There's nothing "fair" about this. Unless you're Co-alt, Co-E, same load-out, in the exact same plane with no other cons intervening it's already "unfair" in some regard. There are so many variables that true "fairness" is virtually unattainable. The closest we can come to fair is each flying our respective planes in a manner conducive to exploiting it's strengths while minimizing its weaknesses while at the same time exploiting the weaknesses of the opponent, whoever can do that better will almost always win.
The funny thing is, if you really want to know the most fair way to fight, it's the HO.The HO is the most democratic form of engagement, a coin flip in almost every situation. So, if you want "fairness" in the MA we'd all have to fly Co-alt, Co-E, Spits with 50% gas at 2k and HO each other all day, won't that be fun...;) I personally prefer the current setup of complete "unfairness" with an almost infinite variety of adaptive styles, tactics and situations.
Never asked for a fair fight, just a fight, don't be confused.
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Never ... and I repeat ... never will I turn tail thinking ... zOMG there is a 109 and he just may hand me my arse so I better bug out and maybe come back and whack him while one of my countrymen has him all tied up.
I hear ya, but I am trying to avoid judging the motive of the 109 from the OP. My take on the post is a lot of time elapsed. The 109 did initially press the attack until his energy state eroded to Co-E vs. a better turner, so give him some marks there. He then disengaged and reengaged later as the 2nd in, whether he knew it was the same Spit or was just being opportunistic against "a Spit" who he found later on a wingman we can only assume, Spits aren't exactly uncommon. As I said earlier, a pilot confident in himself and his ride would have at least continued to track the opponent during the reset phase and reengaged at his earliest possible convenience. I know, when it comes to being the 2nd in, I have no problems with it whether it's me doing it or having it done to. This is especially true against the *cough* "hyper-modelled" rides like the Hurricane, Niki, La7, Spit etc.
I like to use Greebo as an example because he's done it to me more than any other in recent memory. I have come at him with an energy advantage and we've ground to a stalemate repeatedly, I can't get a shot on him and he can't saddle me up. On a couple of occasions, without saying anything we've mutually agreed to go our separate ways. Ten minutes later we both land a pelt pouch full of scalps, but not each other's. Sometime's if you're committed to fighting only your fight and the other guy is too, there's an impasse. It's not an overly common occurrence, but it happens, when it does I just salute the other guy and go about my business. If you read some anecdotal accounts especially from WWI where 1 vs 1's were not such uncommon unfortunate accidents, this happened a lot. Two planes, with dissimilar performance would reach a stalemate and eventually salute each other, go home or seek their prey elsewhere.
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I hear ya, but I am trying to avoid judging the motive of the 109 from the OP. My take on the post is a lot of time elapsed. The 109 did initially press the attack until his energy state eroded to Co-E vs. a better turner, so give him some marks there. He then disengaged and reengaged later as the 2nd in, whether he knew it was the same Spit or was just being opportunistic against "a Spit" who he found later on a wingman we can only assume, Spits aren't exactly uncommon. As I said earlier, a pilot confident in himself and his ride would have at least continued to track the opponent during the reset phase and reengaged at his earliest possible convenience. I know, when it comes to being the 2nd in, I have no problems with it whether it's me doing it or having it done to. This is especially true against the *cough* "hyper-modelled" rides like the Hurricane, Niki, La7, Spit etc.
I like to use Greebo as an example because he's done it to me more than any other in recent memory. I have come at him with an energy advantage and we've ground to a stalemate repeatedly, I can't get a shot on him and he can't saddle me up. On a couple of occasions, without saying anything we've mutually agreed to go our separate ways. Ten minutes later we both land a pelt pouch full of scalps, but not each other's. Sometime's if you're committed to fighting only your fight and the other guy is too, there's an impasse. It's not an overly common occurrence, but it happens, when it does I just salute the other guy and go about my business. If you read some anecdotal accounts especially from WWI where 1 vs 1's were not such uncommon unfortunate accidents, this happened a lot. Two planes, with dissimilar performance would reach a stalemate and eventually salute each other, go home or seek their prey elsewhere.
VERY TRUE
i believe i heard a story about that, maybe on dogfights, that two pilots tangled but no one won, then the German escorted the American side by side home or as far as he could any way.
any one know who, what, when, and where?
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Never asked for a fair fight, just a fight, don't be confused.
He pressed the attack initially until it was Co-E, then exercised his option as the faster plane to egress, that was a fight to a stalemate. You couldn't force him to turn with you and he couldn't translate his initial energy advantage into a killing blow on you.
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VERY TRUE
i believe i heard a story about that, maybe on dogfights, that two pilots tangled but no one won, then the German escorted the American side by side home or as far as he could any way.
any one know who, what, when, and where?
If I remember correctly, it was a P-47 pilot who put up a hell of a fight, against multiples I believe, and finally duked it out with this one German pilot in a real drag down fight. The P-47 got hit bad and decide to bug out ... meanwhile the German did try to take him out from the rear, but the P-47 just kept on going ... so, for whatever reason, I think the German decided that he should live that day and ceased firing and escorted him part way across the channel.
Zaz ... I have done the same with some pilots too and I have also broken off the attack on certain pilots so as not to kill them, because the fight was over and I knew and liked the guy I was fighting, or I knew the guy and he had done the same to me.
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I hear ya, but I am trying to avoid judging the motive of the 109 from the OP. My take on the post is a lot of time elapsed. The 109 did initially press the attack until his energy state eroded to Co-E vs. a better turner, so give him some marks there. He then disengaged and reengaged later as the 2nd in, whether he knew it was the same Spit or was just being opportunistic against "a Spit" who he found later on a wingman we can only assume, Spits aren't exactly uncommon. As I said earlier, a pilot confident in himself and his ride would have at least continued to track the opponent during the reset phase and reengaged at his earliest possible convenience. I know, when it comes to being the 2nd in, I have no problems with it whether it's me doing it or having it done to. This is especially true against the *cough* "hyper-modelled" rides like the Hurricane, Niki, La7, Spit etc.
I like to use Greebo as an example because he's done it to me more than any other in recent memory. I have come at him with an energy advantage and we've ground to a stalemate repeatedly, I can't get a shot on him and he can't saddle me up. On a couple of occasions, without saying anything we've mutually agreed to go our separate ways. Ten minutes later we both land a pelt pouch full of scalps, but not each other's. Sometime's if you're committed to fighting only your fight and the other guy is too, there's an impasse. It's not an overly common occurrence, but it happens, when it does I just salute the other guy and go about my business. If you read some anecdotal accounts especially from WWI where 1 vs 1's were not such uncommon unfortunate accidents, this happened a lot. Two planes, with dissimilar performance would reach a stalemate and eventually salute each other, go home or seek their prey elsewhere.
Nope, it was just me and him initially. There were other birds in the area, but not really close. After the first few passes, I did give chase for a few until he left icon range. I don't remember how long I did chase him hoping he would turn and fight, time is a hard one to judge when in the heat of battle.
Zazen, we will never agree on this. Pickers are the minority, and always will be. If weren't, then the game would fade away. Who wants to fly around chasing cons never actually engaging? If everyone played that way, no one would ever get close enough to bear guns on anyone. May as well play MS flight simulator.
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Somebody did an Il-2 video of this fight called, "Not my time to die". It's been posted in the film and screenshots part of this website and it is pretty good actually.
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If I remember correctly, it was a P-47 pilot who put up a hell of a fight, against multiples I believe, and finally duked it out with this one German pilot in a real drag down fight. The P-47 got hit bad and decide to bug out ... meanwhile the German did try to take him out from the rear, but the P-47 just kept on going ... so, for whatever reason, I think the German decided that he should live that day and ceased firing and escorted him part way across the channel...
that sounds like the one i was thinking of.
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Nope, it was just me and him initially. There were other birds in the area, but not really close. After the first few passes, I did give chase for a few until he left icon range. I don't remember how long I did chase him hoping he would turn and fight, time is a hard one to judge when in the heat of battle.
If you want to be reengaged don't chase, travel perpendicular in preparation for a re-merge. It's a tall order to ask a less maneuverable plane with minimal E advantage to dump the E required to turn 180 degrees and merge with you, while you sacrafice no E. By travelling perpendicular to his flightpath you are offering to split the difference in energy cost to re-merge, making it a more tantalizing, therefore likely, proposition.
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Zazen, we will never agree on this. Pickers are the minority, and always will be. If weren't, then the game would fade away. Who wants to fly around chasing cons never actually engaging? If everyone played that way, no one would ever get close enough to bear guns on anyone. May as well play MS flight simulator.
For the sake of the debate we have been speaking in terms of absolutes. In reality, there are very few "purists" as that kind of rigidity tends to not be rewarded by results in air combat. Most fly like Slappy does in his F6F example earlier adapting toward either end of the spectrum as the situation dictates. Whether you liked the outcome or not, getting BnZ'd to Co-E then later cherry-picked, IS being engaged. It's what faster planes have been doing to slower turny planes since WWI and continue to do in AH. It is the big reason slow planes that turn great quickly became obsolete and planes evolved to be faster not tighter turning.
An equalizing factor in all of this is energy. Had he mistimed his egress you could have gotten an energy advantage on him and forced him to turn with you during the initial engagement. Had you had more relative E initially, you could have forced him to turn with you from the outset. Had you not pursued him in pure trailing fashion he may have opted to reengage you sooner without the friendly bait fish. He engaged you with an energy advantage that resulted in a stalemate, then later, we're presuming consciously, reengaged you at a numerical disadvantage and was successfull in bringing you down. Obviously, he could have managed his initiative afforded by the faster ride more effectively and efficiently, no argument there. But, you could have done more to seduce him into fighting more intimately as well.
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If I remember correctly
Not quite Slap but close. The P47s were bounced by the 190s. After a hard chase the Fw190 ran out of ammo. The kraut pulled up alongside the desperately damaged but still functioning P47 and looked at the pilot hunkered down and shook his head in disbelief before peeling off. He would have killed that P47 if he could have, he did in fact try to.
Had nothing at all to do with chivalry, those fairy tales are for dead men.
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There was the other time...
a 109 escorted a severely wounded B17...
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There was the other time...
a 109 escorted a severely wounded B17...
one time an american pilot actually stopped in the middle of a dog fight and urinated onto the canopy of the german plane, which immediately went into a dive and never recovered....
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Not quite Slap but close. The P47s were bounced by the 190s. After a hard chase the Fw190 ran out of ammo. The kraut pulled up alongside the desperately damaged but still functioning P47 and looked at the pilot hunkered down and shook his head in disbelief before peeling off. He would have killed that P47 if he could have, he did in fact try to.
Had nothing at all to do with chivalry, those fairy tales are for dead men.
im pretty sure the German escorted him most of the way home, could be wrong though.
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Zazen, you're correct on everything, but either way, there is no excuse for outright running from a 1 on 1 you would have got bested in (which was the true rant of the whole thread). Especially if you came in with marked advantages versus the other pilot. That's just breaking an otherwise good fight down to horsepower instead of skill.
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I for one would like to know what motivates these timid players. Could one of you timid players please explain why you play a PvP centric game and refuse to fight?
This is an attempt at humor....right???? :D
The same thing that motivates the horde monkeys....win at all costs.
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ey NB...how ya doin?
i think his point was that the onl time the 109 was willing to engage was when he had serious alt advantagfe, or when he thought that he wasn't looking?
I'm doin' good, Cappy. Working on Con stuff...life is good. :)
I understand what he said. My point was when you get 75% of the folks you meet to fight the way you want...why bother to come here and complain about the 25% that refused to do so? I've been doing this a loooong time and that type of player has been around forever.
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This is an attempt at humor....right???? :D
The same thing that motivates the horde monkeys....win at all costs.
Geeesh ... if we actually WON something tangible ... and winZ teh W@rZ perks don't count ... I could maybe understand.
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I disagree with this completely.
In a good turning A/C , you can avoid most BnZ attacks all day and get them to fight your fight. It doesn't take much of a pilot to yank back on the stick and turn sharp to avoid.
Conversely, it doesn't take much of a pilot to BnZ all day either as they are showing no skill doing that. So I understand your point.
DaveJ...the instructions are on the heel of the boot..... :rolleyes:
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I'm doin' good, Cappy. Working on Con stuff...life is good. :)
I understand what he said. My point was when you get 75% of the folks you meet to fight the way you want...why bother to come here and complain about the 25% that refused to do so? I've been doing this a loooong time and that type of player has been around forever.
NB has been around so long ... he was the one that invented pixel dirt.
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DaveJ...the instructions are on the heel of the boot..... :rolleyes:
:rofl
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im pretty sure the German escorted him most of the way home, could be wrong though.
he looked the plane over, gave a <S> and broke off. Yeager was right, it wasn't any sort of 'honor' that kept the Luftwaffe pilot from shooting down the P-47, it was the lack of ammo.
ack-ack
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Your absolutely correct ... but that was not the point of the thread.
The K4 made no attempt to fight when presented with the 1 v 1 ... had he engaged and then disengaged, if put into a non-winning position, to reset the fight ... then I don't think Scca would have created this thread ... whether he lost or won.
It was the fact that the K4 made a couple (or one) pass, probably hoping to get lucky ... extended beyond icon range and only returned, and enter the fight with any fervor, because Scca was already engaged.
Personally ... I do and don't understand this mentality.
Slappy...
Heck, I've seen guys that run at the first sign of a co-alt dot!!! What I have a problem with is what Scca thought he would accomplish with this thread...is he really that new?? I really don't understand why anyone that has been around for more than a couple of camps would post what he posted. The kind of player he posted about is not new (though the player himself might be), this "style" of play has been around for ever. So...really, why bother?
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Not quite Slap but close. The P47s were bounced by the 190s. After a hard chase the Fw190 ran out of ammo. The kraut pulled up alongside the desperately damaged but still functioning P47 and looked at the pilot hunkered down and shook his head in disbelief before peeling off. He would have killed that P47 if he could have, he did in fact try to.
Had nothing at all to do with chivalry, those fairy tales are for dead men.
Thanks for setting the story straight ... now that you mentioned it, I now remember that the German did indeed shoot all his ammo and I guess fly next to the P-47 in amazement and wondered if the pilot was actually still alive.
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If I remember correctly, it was a P-47 pilot who put up a hell of a fight, against multiples I believe, and finally duked it out with this one German pilot in a real drag down fight. The P-47 got hit bad and decide to bug out ... meanwhile the German did try to take him out from the rear, but the P-47 just kept on going ... so, for whatever reason, I think the German decided that he should live that day and ceased firing and escorted him part way across the channel.
Zaz ... I have done the same with some pilots too and I have also broken off the attack on certain pilots so as not to kill them, because the fight was over and I knew and liked the guy I was fighting, or I knew the guy and he had done the same to me.
P-47 pilot was Robert Johnson and the 190 driver was a well known ace as well....
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he looked the plane over, gave a <S> and broke off. Yeager was right, it wasn't any sort of 'honor' that kept the Luftwaffe pilot from shooting down the P-47, it was the lack of ammo.
ack-ack
well damm it all im just gonna HO every one from now on, you guys pissin in my cornflakes :P
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Slappy...
Heck, I've seen guys that run at the first sign of a co-alt dot!!! What I have a problem with is what Scca thought he would accomplish with this thread...is he really that new?? I really don't understand why anyone that has been around for more than a couple of camps would post what he posted. The kind of player he posted about is not new (though the player himself might be), this "style" of play has been around for ever. So...really, why bother?
True ... but nothing like a good healthy exchange ... I don't think that anyone really got out of hand during the discussion.
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DaveJ...the instructions are on the heel of the boot..... :rolleyes:
I usually do a rolling scissors to get out of pickers. Which IIRC is where you roll and go up, then nose down really hard? (Hard to explain..) :aok
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one time an american pilot actually stopped in the middle of a dog fight and urinated onto the canopy of the german plane, which immediately went into a dive and never recovered....
It's actually a true story.
(http://www.waltsrchanger.com/B-17F_Ye_Olde_Pub_in_front___Bf_109_In_back_as_escort.jpg)
Story:
Charlie Brown was a B-17 Flying Fortress pilot with the 379th Bomber Group at Kimbolton , En gland . His B-17 was called 'Ye Old Pub' and was in a terrible state, having been hit by flak and fighters. The compass was damaged and they were flying deeper over enemy territory instead of heading home to Kimbolton.
After flying over an enemy airfield, a German pilot named Franz Steigler was ordered to take off and shoot down the B-17. When he got near the B-17, he could not believe his eyes. In his words, he 'had never seen a plane in such a bad state'. The tail and rear section was severely damaged, and the tail gunner wounded. The top gunner was all over the top of the fuselage. The nose was smashed and there were holes everywhere.
Despite having ammunition, Franz flew to the side of the B-17 and looked at Charlie Brown, the pilot. Brown was scared and struggling to control his damaged and blood-stained plane.
Aware that they had no idea where they were going, Franz waved at Charlie to turn 1 80 degrees. Franz escorted and guided the stricken plane to and slightly over the North Sea towards England He then saluted Charlie Brown and turned away, back to Europe.
When Franz landed he told the C/O that the plane had been shot down over the sea, and never told the truth to anybody. Charlie Brown and the remains of his crew told all at their briefing, but were ordered never to talk about it.
More than 40 years later, Charlie Brown wanted to find the Luftwaffe pilot who saved the crew. After years of research, Franz was found. He had never talked about the inci dent, not even at post-war reunions.
They met in th e USA at a 379th. Bomber Group reunion, together with 25 people who are alive now - all because Franz never fired his guns that day.
The reason Franz Steigler kept it a secret is if he had told his CO what he'd done, he would have been executed by firing squad.
ack-ack
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Geeesh ... if we actually WON something tangible ... and winZ teh W@rZ perks don't count ... I could maybe understand.
I know Slap....funny isn't it?!?!
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NB has been around so long ... he was the one that invented pixel dirt.
No, I didn't. But, I have met him. :D
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well damm it all im just gonna HO every one from now on, you guys pissin in my cornflakes :P
Here ya go ink ...
"Early in the morning forty-eight Thunderbolts took off from the advanced base at Manston. Having previously been criticized for going off on his own, this morning Johnson resolved to stay in formation. The three squadrons of the 56th Fighter Group were all up: the 61st (Johnson's), 62nd, and 63rd. Before the mission, Johnson felt the cold fear that he always felt, and which he was able to channel into higher alertness. They flew up, over the Channel, into France, and soon spotted sixteen Fw-190s. Before Johnson could communicate or coordinate with his flight, he was hit. 20mm cannon shells ripped through his plane, smashing the canopy, punching holes in the plane, and inspiring in Johnson an overwhelming urge to bail out. More explosions smashed the plane, and Johnson's frantic "Mayday!" calls drew no response. Fire began to envelope the cockpit.
The Thunderbolt spun crazily out of his control and the twisted and jammed canopy frame resisted his repeated, superhuman, full-body efforts to open it. As he struggled vainly with the canopy, the engine fire miraculously went out, but he could hardly see, as oil spewed back from the battered engine. He tried to squeeze out through the broken glass of the canopy, but the opening was just too small for both him and his chute. Trapped inside the P-47, he next decided to try to crash-land and evade. He turned the plane south, toward Spain - the recommended evasion route. After struggling with hypoxia and hallucinations(?), his thoughts came back into focus and he realized that the aircraft was still flying fairly well. He headed back for England, counting on his high altitude to help him make a long, partially-powered glide back home.
The instrument panel was shattered. The wind constantly blew more oil and hydraulic fluid into his cut up face and eyes. He had neglected to wear his goggles that morning, and any attempt to rub his eyes burned worse than ever. He and his plane were horribly shot up, but incredibly he was still alive. He made for the Channel, desperate to escape the heavily defended enemy territory.
Swiveling constantly, he froze in horror as he spotted a plane approaching him, an Fw-190, beautifully painted in blue with a yellow cowling. Johnson was totally helpless, and just had to wait for the German to get him in his sights and open up. The German closed in, taking his time with the crippled American fighter. Johnson hunched down behind his armor-plated seat, to await the inevitable. The German opened up, spraying the plane with 30-caliber machine gun fire, not missing, just pouring lead into the battered Thunderbolt. Johnson kicked his rudder left and right, slowing his plane to a crawl, and fired back as the German sped out in front of him.
The Focke-Wulf easily avoided the gunfire from the half-blinded Johnson, and circled back, this time pulling level with him. The pilot examined the shattered Thunderbolt all over, looking it up and down, and shook his head in mystification. He banked, pulled up behind Johnson again, and opened up with another burst. Somehow the rugged Republic-built aircraft stayed in the air. The German pulled alongside again, as they approached the southern coast of the Channel. Still flying, Johnson realized how fortunate it was that the German found him after his heavy 20mm cannons were empty.
As they went out over the Channel, the German get behind and opened up again, but the P-47 kept flying. Then he pulled up alongside, rocked his wings in salute, and flew off, before they reached the English coast. Johnson had survived the incredible, point-blank machine gun fire, but still had to land the plane. He contacted Mayday Control by radio, who instructed him to climb if he can. The battered plane climbed, and after more communication, headed for his base at Manston. Landing was touch and go, as he had no idea if the landing gear would work. The wheels dropped down and locked and he landed safely."
"Johnsonn's opponent that day was the Luftwaffe Ace Egon Mayer: his rank was Oberstleutnant (Lt.Col). "
"After the injured Johnson had landed his plane at the Manston emergency strip, he surveyed the damage it had taken, and later described the result in his autobiography, Thunderbolt!:
There are twenty-one gaping holes and jagged tears in the metal from exploding 20mm cannon shells. I'm still standing in one place when my count of bullet holes reaches past a hundred; there's no use even trying to add them all. The Thunderbolt is literally a sieve, holes through the wings, fuselage and tail. Every square foot, it seems is covered with holes. There are five holes in the propeller. Three 20mm cannon shells burst against the armor plate, a scant inch away from my head. Five cannon shell holes in the right wing; four in the left wing. Two cannnon shells blasted away the lower half of my rudder. One shell exploded in the cockpit, next to my left hand; this is the blast that ripped away the flap handle. More holes appeared along the fuselage and in the tail. Behind the cockpit, the metal is twisted and curled; this had jammed the canopy, trapping me inside.
The airplane had done her best. Needless to say, she would never fly again."
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I usually do a rolling scissors to get out of pickers. Which IIRC is where you roll and go up, then nose down really hard? (Hard to explain..) :aok
EMERGENCY!!!!
This man needs a clue rake.....NOW!!! :rofl
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Here ya go ink ...
"Early in the morning forty-eight Thunderbolts took off from the advanced base at Manston. Having previously been criticized for going off on his own, this morning Johnson resolved to stay in formation. The three squadrons of the 56th Fighter Group were all up: the 61st (Johnson's), 62nd, and 63rd. Before the mission, Johnson felt the cold fear that he always felt, and which he was able to channel into higher alertness. They flew up, over the Channel, into France, and soon spotted sixteen Fw-190s. Before Johnson could communicate or coordinate with his flight, he was hit. 20mm cannon shells ripped through his plane, smashing the canopy, punching holes in the plane, and inspiring in Johnson an overwhelming urge to bail out. More explosions smashed the plane, and Johnson's frantic "Mayday!" calls drew no response. Fire began to envelope the cockpit.
The Thunderbolt spun crazily out of his control and the twisted and jammed canopy frame resisted his repeated, superhuman, full-body efforts to open it. As he struggled vainly with the canopy, the engine fire miraculously went out, but he could hardly see, as oil spewed back from the battered engine. He tried to squeeze out through the broken glass of the canopy, but the opening was just too small for both him and his chute. Trapped inside the P-47, he next decided to try to crash-land and evade. He turned the plane south, toward Spain - the recommended evasion route. After struggling with hypoxia and hallucinations(?), his thoughts came back into focus and he realized that the aircraft was still flying fairly well. He headed back for England, counting on his high altitude to help him make a long, partially-powered glide back home.
The instrument panel was shattered. The wind constantly blew more oil and hydraulic fluid into his cut up face and eyes. He had neglected to wear his goggles that morning, and any attempt to rub his eyes burned worse than ever. He and his plane were horribly shot up, but incredibly he was still alive. He made for the Channel, desperate to escape the heavily defended enemy territory.
Swiveling constantly, he froze in horror as he spotted a plane approaching him, an Fw-190, beautifully painted in blue with a yellow cowling. Johnson was totally helpless, and just had to wait for the German to get him in his sights and open up. The German closed in, taking his time with the crippled American fighter. Johnson hunched down behind his armor-plated seat, to await the inevitable. The German opened up, spraying the plane with 30-caliber machine gun fire, not missing, just pouring lead into the battered Thunderbolt. Johnson kicked his rudder left and right, slowing his plane to a crawl, and fired back as the German sped out in front of him.
The Focke-Wulf easily avoided the gunfire from the half-blinded Johnson, and circled back, this time pulling level with him. The pilot examined the shattered Thunderbolt all over, looking it up and down, and shook his head in mystification. He banked, pulled up behind Johnson again, and opened up with another burst. Somehow the rugged Republic-built aircraft stayed in the air. The German pulled alongside again, as they approached the southern coast of the Channel. Still flying, Johnson realized how fortunate it was that the German found him after his heavy 20mm cannons were empty.
As they went out over the Channel, the German get behind and opened up again, but the P-47 kept flying. Then he pulled up alongside, rocked his wings in salute, and flew off, before they reached the English coast. Johnson had survived the incredible, point-blank machine gun fire, but still had to land the plane. He contacted Mayday Control by radio, who instructed him to climb if he can. The battered plane climbed, and after more communication, headed for his base at Manston. Landing was touch and go, as he had no idea if the landing gear would work. The wheels dropped down and locked and he landed safely."
"Johnsonn's opponent that day was the Luftwaffe Ace Egon Mayer: his rank was Oberstleutnant (Lt.Col). "
"After the injured Johnson had landed his plane at the Manston emergency strip, he surveyed the damage it had taken, and later described the result in his autobiography, Thunderbolt!:
There are twenty-one gaping holes and jagged tears in the metal from exploding 20mm cannon shells. I'm still standing in one place when my count of bullet holes reaches past a hundred; there's no use even trying to add them all. The Thunderbolt is literally a sieve, holes through the wings, fuselage and tail. Every square foot, it seems is covered with holes. There are five holes in the propeller. Three 20mm cannon shells burst against the armor plate, a scant inch away from my head. Five cannon shell holes in the right wing; four in the left wing. Two cannnon shells blasted away the lower half of my rudder. One shell exploded in the cockpit, next to my left hand; this is the blast that ripped away the flap handle. More holes appeared along the fuselage and in the tail. Behind the cockpit, the metal is twisted and curled; this had jammed the canopy, trapping me inside.
The airplane had done her best. Needless to say, she would never fly again."
Holy crap,
as i was reading this i got goosebumps on my goosebumps, seriously.
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Holy crap,
as i was reading this i got goosebumps on my goosebumps, seriously.
It surely wasn't his day to die ... he later went on to score 27 kills ... God had other plans for him.
If that German pilot ever knew whom he hadn't killed, he surely lived to regret it. Bob Johnson would go on to score 27 aerial victories in his time with the 56th Ftr. Grp., one of the top scoring groups in the ETO, under its great leader, Col. Hub Zemke. The top two aces of the 8th AF, Johnson and Gabby Gabreski, both flew P-47s with "Zemke's Wolfpack."
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It surely wasn't his day to die ... he later went on to score 27 kills ... God had other plans for him.
If that German pilot ever knew whom he hadn't killed, he surely lived to regret it. Bob Johnson would go on to score 27 aerial victories in his time with the 56th Ftr. Grp., one of the top scoring groups in the ETO, under its great leader, Col. Hub Zemke. The top two aces of the 8th AF, Johnson and Gabby Gabreski, both flew P-47s with "Zemke's Wolfpack."
its funny i was gonna say in my last post "and some people say God does not exist"
i just did not want to start another God bashing rant.
thax for showing me that BTW
<S>
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its funny i was gonna say in my last post "and some people say God does not exist"
i just did not want to start another God bashing rant.
thax for showing me that BTW
<S>
:aok
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Slappy...
Heck, I've seen guys that run at the first sign of a co-alt dot!!! What I have a problem with is what Scca thought he would accomplish with this thread...is he really that new?? I really don't understand why anyone that has been around for more than a couple of camps would post what he posted. The kind of player he posted about is not new (though the player himself might be), this "style" of play has been around for ever. So...really, why bother?
Sorry to bother you NoBaddy, feel free to remove your subscription to this thread and move on. Thank you for sharing your opinion.
FWIW, I am fairly new, only a year and 8 months into the game. My current game name is 613Scca these days BTW.
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It surely wasn't his day to die ... he later went on to score 27 kills ... God had other plans for him.
If that German pilot ever knew whom he hadn't killed, he surely lived to regret it. Bob Johnson would go on to score 27 aerial victories in his time with the 56th Ftr. Grp., one of the top scoring groups in the ETO, under its great leader, Col. Hub Zemke. The top two aces of the 8th AF, Johnson and Gabby Gabreski, both flew P-47s with "Zemke's Wolfpack."
It's amazing how he survived the 20mm round that hit his armor plate just inches from his head and the 20mm hit in his cockpit. It definitely wasn't his day to die.
ack-ack
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Sorry to bother you NoBaddy, feel free to remove your subscription to this thread and move on. Thank you for sharing your opinion.
FWIW, I am fairly new, only a year and 8 months into the game. My current game name is 613Scca these days BTW.
Hmmm, more confusion. I wasn't being flippant. I do not understand how anyone can play this game for 18+ months and start a thread like this one. Unless it is a rant thread and merely an attempt to vent.
BTW, thanks for thanking me for my "opinion"...but, I didn't give an opinion. Have a nice day. :)
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Hey ... who let you out of the insane asylum anyways ? ... you, for all intents and purposes, vanished into thin air, and it now appears that you are back with a vengeance ... I like it.
Yea, I was in a bad car accident and had to have major neck surgery. I wasn't able to play for several months. It's still painful and uncomfortable to play, but it's getting better.
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Welcome back Z. :salute
Glad you are recovering.
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Back in 1997 (ish) on AOL AirWarrior RR Europe, I recall a certain "well known" pilot in a Dora picking people left and right. Myself and Sin upped and got a bit of alt on 'em, and chased them all over the place. They ran to the ack at Assasin, we deacked it, so they then ran to the ack at the base to the East of it (can't quite remember the name), again, we chased and deacked it.
Said player did finally land as we deacked the last base, more 'cause we "let" them than anything, but the fact still remains they ran all over the map and wouldn't fight the two of us. Me and Sin sure did have fun taunting them on channel for not fighting it out.
Can anybody guess said players name?
Hint: Cuba
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Yea, I was in a bad car accident and had to have major neck surgery. I wasn't able to play for several months. It's still painful and uncomfortable to play, but it's getting better.
WOW ... sorry to hear than, and glad your back on the mend.
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Pickers and runners, please help me understand what is the fascination with this style of game play. Maybe it's a "your $15" thing, but what possible enjoyment can someone get from only engaging cons when they are already engaged and running from a 1v1 when you have an E advantage? To me, 90% of the fun is the fight, not the winner. I am so confused..
I hate pickers and runners, I am usually successfull at chasing them down like the slimy dogs they are and destroy their ego before they can land and have their name in lights.
I will not show them any respect or mercy, even if they are landing, dives for ack, the only way I will go away is seeing them go down in flames.
My friend, thats SATISFACTION!!! :lol :lol :lol
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I don't get all this separate talk of Energy fighters and TnB. A good stick should use both during a fight, switching seamlessly to do so.
edit: If someone does only one of those, purely turns horizontally; or just gets alt, dives, zooms back up, and repeats. They are severely limiting themselves.
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Yea, I was in a bad car accident and had to have major neck surgery. I wasn't able to play for several months. It's still painful and uncomfortable to play, but it's getting better.
damm Zazan13 taht sux, but its good you are still with us :salute
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Ghastly, it doesn't matter if SCCA or anyone else snubs or doesn't. All I'm saying is that it makes no sense to him or others. As for "my" type of play.. I don't play any one type. I might be mainly into furballing and more or less tactical combat, but I've done all of them. The one I do think makes no sense, except in an anti-gameplay sense, is e.g. porking CVs for no tactical or strategic gain and only because it boinks with others' fun... Sure, it "makes sense". That's beside the point, though. It's a lot like lawyers defending murderers and rapists (not to equate porkers in the game to those obviously), saying they have a pertinent and defendable technical point... It's really beside the real point.
Sure, it "makes sense" if I were to fly in the most timid and treacherous way.. I could (and have) fly only taking advantage of all the easiest vulnerabilities in others' flying, I could fly in the horde and "win" by brute size, etc. It's all pretty shallow, though. I can read that perspective and understand it easily, but the real question is how those guys persist playing so cheaply and for such shallow victories, when it should be obvious even for the most dim witted that there's a lot more fun and satisfaction in winning a fight with more rather than less peril. How do they insist on being a big fish in a small pond? What is it that makes some players act just like the K4 in the OP, not occasionaly (myself I'll fly like that when I'm starting to doze off) but every time? It's hard to believe they just don't have the balls because it's all pixels. So yeah, it will make a lot of people incredulous. I don't see how that's hard to understand.
I can relate to the guys who play the game just to oogle at the pretty planes or pretend they're Bong or Hartmann or Sakai or whoever, but it's a lot like seeing guys in power ranger suits raving about how thrilling it is to act out some fantasy. I can relate to it, but it doesn't make sense.
And Humble, I dunno what you're trying to say. Or at least, it sounds like you're talking about something else. I'm not saying tactics biased toward the higher speed end of the spectrum are what's wrong. Just like Mensa says.
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G
I can relate to the guys who play the game just to oogle at the pretty planes or pretend they're Bong or Hartmann or Sakai or whoever, but it's a lot like seeing guys in power ranger suits raving about how thrilling it is to act out some fantasy. I can relate to it, but it doesn't make sense.
Really? I can't see any reason to play this game OTHER than the "pretend I'm a WWII pilot for abit" aspect. I'd make the comparison to those guys who dress up like Civil War soldiers, march about and fire blanks at each other.
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No, that's not what I'm saying. But if it were, you could very well take up pixel dogfighting the same way people take up chess without pretending they're Deep Blue or Kasparov, or learn fencing without going effeminate or necessarily pretending to be one of the Musketeers.
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Please forgive the fact that I decided to skip the last 14 pages of posts and just decided to state my opinion on this matter of pickers/runners.
First off, I've been playing a little over two years on and off (combined of probably about a year or so).. I'm fairly experienced with being picked off or the attempt of a pick and then running.. It is not a tactic that I like to use, nor do I enjoy flying most of the plane-set that is categorized as being most able at picking..
I spent a significant amount of time in the day for the past 2 months just to get some more practice in without having to fly 10 minutes or more to find a fight (and probably get picked off while I'm AFK during climb out). So, here's my reasoning for the existence of pickers and runners: They like to see that low number and high k/d ratio next to their name(possibly for lack of true accomplishments in actual life :p).. Yes.....I said it..
Most of those pickers who just happen to have the tables turned on them will complain to no end on the almighty channel 200 while quickly going through your score on the roster and going to hitech's website to do an investigation of what plane you have gotten the most kills in (if it's an LA7, Spit16, etc. be prepared for more whining than a 6 month old infant how needs a diaper change) and shouting it out loud on 200 for everyone to see what a "dweeb" you are and that you really didn't work for that kill, but just got lucky.. I'm sure you've all seen the comments posted by certain individuals with regards to one's rank, score, and K/D ration or something similar.. Yes, one may have a low K/D ratio.. Maybe landing isn't truly important to them but the thrill of the fight is.. Can't tell you how many times I've flown against decent sticks who say to me "Good Fight!!". Yeah, I may get beat in the end a majority of the time, but I pushed my skills and my plane to the limit as best as I know how and even learned a little in each fight (filming all of them as well).. I believe this is more "respectable" than running away or picking (you learn virtually nothing from this type of playing)..
I will give one more instance of my DA experience and then I will not bore you anymore. As I said, for the last 2 months, I spent 99% of my time in the DA. There were two players in particular who flew nothing but Tempests every time they were on.. Personally, I was picked off by them dozens of times each evening.. I happened to switch countries just to follow them around to see what they did.. They took off in the opposite direction of the fight, climbed to 15K (sometimes higher), came in way above the fight, and dove in and picked off people who were RTB or damaged or fighting another plane.. This was the ONLY tactic they used. So, I figured I will beat them at their own game in a lesser plane and see what they think about that.. I upped a Jug D40, climbed to 21K from 10K base away from the main DA area, spotted my prey (obviously they never felt the need to look up so they never saw me), dove in, shot one up, climbed out.. The other guy dove to the deck.. I dove down after him, caught up to him (at the speed he was going he could not even maneuver) and picked him as well.. I cannot begin to elaborate on the tirade that happened afterwards. I was called every name in the book.. Afterwards, I challenged both to a 1v1 duel. Neither took me up on the offer.. They need to keep the score up! No sense taking a chance at someone damaging their score! :lol
I'm not trying to give myself props or anything, just explaining that these guys (and most like them) are quite hippocratic in their philosophy.
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Back in 1997 (ish) on AOL AirWarrior RR Europe, I recall a certain "well known" pilot in a Dora picking people left and right. Myself and Sin upped and got a bit of alt on 'em, and chased them all over the place. They ran to the ack at Assasin, we deacked it, so they then ran to the ack at the base to the East of it (can't quite remember the name), again, we chased and deacked it.
Said player did finally land as we deacked the last base, more 'cause we "let" them than anything, but the fact still remains they ran all over the map and wouldn't fight the two of us. Me and Sin sure did have fun taunting them on channel for not fighting it out.
Can anybody guess said players name?
Hint: Cuba
Hmm, you go from "pilot" to "them" and "they". You might be confused about specifics...since "Assassin" was an A-land field and "he" didn't fly in A-land (at least, not with that handle) and he almost always fought outnumbered. :)
Btw, I do remember fighting you guys often in a Dorka.....invariably outnumbered. I also remember folks grabbing their Spits and getting above my Dorka then trying rag me for not staying to turn fight them and their friends....could this be one of those instances? :D
BTW, your hint is weak...since his handle had nothing to do with "Cuba". :rofl :salute
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Moot, the snubs only matter because they give the impression that the person who's saying "explain it to me" has already made up his/her mind that the person who's actions they are questioning is a low-life of some sort and that whatever the answer is, it's moot. ;)
Assuming sincerity in the request, I don't think SCCA (and others) are ever going to get the answer that they are looking for, because most of them have done all the things at one time or another that the person in the K4 was doing, and they didn't find (as much) enjoyment in it (as they get doing something else) - and so what they are really asking is not what the K4 pilot's reasons are, but rather how he could value things so much differently than they do. And barring having some sort of epiphany on their part when the K4 pilot put's forth his reasoning (which would require them to see or experience something they haven't before, which is improbable at best) what you're left with is simply a difference in subjective valuation.
In the end, it's going to be no different than trying to explain why your favorite sitcom is so funny to someone who doesn't see it as funny at all.
<S>
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Impression doesn't matter. When you walk into a different country, you don't just take impressions for granted; it's what the other guy's actualy thinking that matters. Nor is it valid to say that some guy is wrong in trusting his instincts when he says that "as far as he can tell" something doesn't make sense.
"what they are really asking is not what the K4 pilot's reasons are, but rather how he could value things so much differently than they do" << One and the same.
The sitcom analogy doesn't work because you can make sense of the seeming absence of funny to someone else and likely give them a wider range of known funnnies.
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"what they are really asking is not what the K4 pilot's reasons are, but rather how he could value things so much differently than they do" << One and the same.
No, they are completely different things - but apparently it's time to agree to disagree, because you see them as one and the same and I do not.
I'll leave you with one more example, however, as I sign off the thread: I own a BMW motorbike, I have a couple of brother in law who ride Harley's, and my son in law owns a Honda sports bike. We can each explain why we prefer our own ride over theirs until we're blue in the face, and we each hear and understand the words coming out of each other's mouths when we explain which factors are more important to each of us in our choices, but the bottom line is that we each VALUE those factors differently. The only guys who really understand why the other guy rides the bike he does are the two guys who both ride Harley's - and even they disagree on how important certain things are.
<S>
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The reason for the K4 doing what he did was because he values the satisfaction of flying as he does for the same reason someone else will value the satifaction he gets from another sort of flying.
The reason you laugh at one sitcom is the same as that for which someone else laughs at another different sitcom. Which doesn't exclude the possibility for you or him to understand each others' sitcoms, EVEN IF in the end they recognize that they value the sitcoms or bikes or ACM preferences differently. It's disingenuous to see that someone's "stuck on stupid" (as un-PC as it is to say) in the way he flies, but pretend that he conveniently (for the sake of some argument on a forum) is one of the few players who aren't merely clueless about how to properly fly the plane, but is purposedly flying like a coward because it's the most fun thing to do.
That said, I really doubt you could call the sort of super timid tactics "fun", if Aces High suddenly had nothing but that sort of gameplay, because it's the one sort of gameplay that most deminishes the amount of AIR COMBAT that actualy happens.
And yeah, we're going to agree to disagree if in your opinion there's no way to really understand why a Harley guy rides Harleys unless one rides a Harley himself.
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Yea, I was in a bad car accident and had to have major neck surgery. I wasn't able to play for several months. It's still painful and uncomfortable to play, but it's getting better.
sheesh sorry to here zazen, on all fronts, really a terrible thing to have to go through. I happen to work alot with people who have these types of injuries (mostly on the repair side) and sincerely hope everything is going ok and things continue to improve for you. <S>
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That said, I really doubt you could call the sort of super timid tactics "fun", if Aces High suddenly had nothing but that sort of gameplay, because it's the one sort of gameplay that most deminishes the amount of AIR COMBAT that actualy happens.
Referring to what I said earlier, and how I think about this game, what would a real fighter pilot, in this case a Luftwaffe flyer in a 109 K-4, do?
Would he disengage at first sight of a lone Spitfire? No. He would give it a go. Granted, sustained turn, for a variety of reasons, is more important in sim dogfighting than R/L, but it is still entirely possible that the Spitfire pilot will make a terrible mistake, giving the K-4 driver a kill.
Now, if he gives it the ol' college try and finds the Spit locked onto his long six, with bugging likely his only surviable option, would he run for it? I think he would, and I do not feel ashamed making the same strategic choice.
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Referring to what I said earlier, and how I think about this game, what would a real fighter pilot, in this case a Luftwaffe flyer in a 109 K-4, do?
Given an infinite amount of lives and no harm worse than some pixels saying "you were shot down" with an immediate trip back to his home tower? I think you know the answer..
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One time I was really bored, so I took the La-7 up and hunted down all high profile pilots bnzming my base. It was sweet! but then they hope on 200 and cry at me for flying La-7, and all i did was lol back!
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2000 called and it wants its smack back.
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Some people try to turnfight and die miserably trying. Why? Because they still have much to learn.
Some people try to E fight but don't know how to get the angle, speed and aim right, so they run. Why? Because they still have much to learn.
Some people get confused about other player's (pilots) behaviour, and complain about it. Why? Are they intimidated by the fact that someone got away from them, that someone had the audacity turn down a fight with them? Perhaps they themselves are part of the "still have much to learn" crowd?
Some people realize that other players (pilots) do not fully understand the nature of ACM and how things work up there. These people shake their heads at the less knowledgeable knowing that some will eventually come to understand while some others never will so they think it's best not to engage in a discussion about it. Those who will come to understand are the ones who want to understand... while the ones who never will understand are the ones with too big egos to develop a greater understanding of ACM, and possibly even other aspects of life.
It's just that, some people get it, some people don't. Beats me why some people refuse to understand it but... as far as I can tell, it's generally speaking just a matter of bad attitude and point-finger-and-laugh behaviour. Which is all quite silly (http://hem.bredband.net/turnik/icons/icon_baby.gif) if you ask me.
Go tell a real WW2 fighter pilot that he's a chicken for "running" from a fight, and you'd get a boot so far up your a** that you'd need to go to the dentist for oral surgery.
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Given an infinite amount of lives and no harm worse than some pixels saying "you were shot down" with an immediate trip back to his home tower? I think you know the answer..
And absolutely no harm comes to anyone by someone else trying to fly realistically. You probably understand I'm not advocating absolute timidity here moot...however, I see no good in the opposite extreme.
Let me tell you another aspect of "flying to live". I have limped home smoking, shot up wrecks with a PW after delivering eggs. I could bail and come back with more eggs much quicker. But I am consistent in my trying to survive each and every sortie. I find it silly that so much jabo/attack is carried out under circumstances where air superiority has rendered survival almost impossible, but the very suicidal nature of the method renders defense nigh impossible. In the case of buffs/jabos, not flying realistically is the hated "bomb and bail" method. But in fighters, trying to RTB each and every time is arch dweebery. Wierd...
You can believe me on this or not, but I don't get mad when people bug under reasonable circumstances. I sometimes find it a little silly when they DON'T
Today, farting around in the MA, I shot down five Fw-190s. Twice it was an individual coming in high while I was in an A-20 hunting GVs and trying to get me, 3 times were on Spitfire hops. All of them, after expending their E and ending up in front, made the mistake of doing something other than extending from a plane with superior maneuverabilty. I don't mind getting the kills, but at the same time, it kind of makes me shake my head. There was no need for them to "prove" anything to me by what amounts to letting me have very easy kills because their airframe absolutely cannot compete with mine in that particular corner of the envelope.
If there were no disengaging, top speed would be a useless trait, offensively and defensively. Sustained turn rate primarily and climb rate secondarily would be the end-all be-all, and the variety of planes that had anything going for them would be sharply curtailed. I've played a game that mimicked conditions similar to that, its called CFS3 online mode...spawn you at 200mph and 5K in the middle of the other tail-chasers, shoot whatever crosses in front of your sights until you yourself are inevitiably shot down. You and everyone else will be doing this in a Spit 99% of the time, because unlike AHII, Spit truly WAS a UFO in CFS, and the typical conditions were made for Spit only dominance. Maybe to some AH players this would be heaven, to me it was a mindless, unrealistic, hellish perversion of the stories of air combat I'd read since I was a boy.
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Alright, I give up. You guys so inclined can fly like the pixels really were hooked up to your nervous system, and you had an acute phobia of so much as risking to be pixel-shot at. It's really not my loss.
I'm not advocating absolute timidity here..however, I see no good in the opposite extreme.
Implying I advocated the latter? I didn't. I've played all the different ways the game allows, including toolshedding - I used to close bases with Lancasters back in the days when the bombsight had no calibration... You just steered the bombsight from 30k and perfectly landed your FH salvos in a single pass... I've done the single La7 NOE picking people off on the front and rear lines, etc, etc. I really am pointing at only one specific sort of gameplay.
But in fighters, trying to RTB each and every time is arch dweebery. Wierd...
Whoa there.. The only thing I really denounce is players who run AS SOON as they detect the tiniest risk of their being in danger, and won't even engage you unless you're already fighting 1:1 (and that means an even-odds furball where the pilots decide the fight, not strictly one-on-one coalt co-e etc). Legit RTBs are nothing like what I'm saying. I'm talking about the same sort of limpwristed crap as soccer players do, trying to get a edge by pretending to have been fouled to get a time-out, when the slo mo camera shows they faked it.
it kind of makes me shake my head. There was no need for them to "prove" anything to me by what amounts to letting me have very easy kills because their airframe absolutely cannot compete with mine in that particular corner of the envelope.
Wrong.. I don't see why they had to have been trying to have any particular impression on you.. They may as well have been trying to come out on top of a hard challenge just as they had planned. You don't win those without trying.
As for "absolutely cannot compete".. I'm gonna brag here, but I've pulled off "absolutely impossible" stuff 152 vs top tier sticks flying n1k's and spits etc, many times. I shake my head when some guy obviously doesn't stand a chance at coming out on top, but it's never because of the plane. It's always because he's not doing it right.
Maybe to some AH players this would be heaven, to me it was a mindless, unrealistic, hellish perversion of the stories of air combat I'd read since I was a boy.
Now we're off topic, but running with your example: 1) Stories of Air Combat are what events are for, 2) that's what H2H was.. The best furballing setup, which incidently was a lot like what you describe, was HtHide's FFA maps. It was 1 sector large, with 40k walls all around, and two air spawns... And 8 players furballing <15sec away under those spawns, non-stop. Guess what I and a few others flew into those spit/zeke/hurri/n1k furballs? It wasn't spits/zekes/hurris/n1k's, and believe it or not, we didn't run for miles anytime the opposition pointed at us, we didn't pick the furball, we went right for it and it was a lot more fun for everyone than the bore n snooze record breaking "extensions" that some players do in the MAs. We fought all out and if we made a mistake, we paid for it and replaned. If we earned a win for one fight out of 10,000, the other guy conceded and burned into the ground and reupped for fight #10,001. He didn't run or flip flop epilepticaly or bail before taking a killshot. He took his mistake in stride and tried to fight out of it. There were some runners but they were weeded out, or lightened up and joined the fight, or got ejected by the host. Litteraly eight or nine times out of ten, a really tardly picker would get ejected by the other players as soon as the host was back from afk.
We had more Air Combat in a few nights than most people now do in a whole tour. In fact, H2H FFAers in those rooms were better than 80%+ of the MA sticks, as soon as the fight turned to knife fighting. The only advantage MA sticks had was a better sense of pick and herd dynamics in a furball.
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Go tell a real WW2 fighter pilot that he's a chicken for "running" from a fight, and you'd get a boot so far up your a** that you'd need to go to the dentist for oral surgery.
That's his point I believe. We're not real WW2 fighter pilots. We don't die and we get new planes. Why not test yourself and your cartoon bird out and see if you can find the edge of the envelope instead of just staying where you feel 'safe'. There is no risk in dying, but there is the potential for learning something more about how to 'fly' if you take the 'risk' in fighting.
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Ask yourself this, if the WW2 pilots could have flown without no risk, fully able to test their planes out to the limit an endless numbers of times (they never had as much chance to learn as much ACM as we possibly can, one mistake and you're dead is pretty steep learning curve), and had all day 30 minutes hops to practice with, would they still take the strategical route out?
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Guppy and moot have the right attitude here. You can bnz all you want, and run when there is any chance of a co E enemy and I think many new players find bnz very appealing (they are sick of being killed repeatedly). What I dont understand is how this style of playing wouldn't get old over time. I dont play for score at all, I constantly fly in outnumbered just to see how long I can last. I also occasionally fly D3a's in LWA's just to add some spice to the night. I get kills and I get killed a lot, but i have a blast doing it.
If you are playing for score think about this. You want to be on top of the board at the end of the month, or you want to be seen as one of the "good" players. Yes you may be "good" at the "game" but this does not make a you a good cartoon fighter pilot. The players often refered to as "good" frequently have poor scores.
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What I dont understand is how this style of playing wouldn't get old over time.
Alot of the planes I grew up liking, their strengths are high top speed and dive speed, and good zoom climb. Playing them to their strengths involves those wicked bnz tactics. My callsign is BnZ for no other reason than that particular phrase came up alot when I was reading about fighter tactics, especially tactics used by the Americans. I didn't know it was the name of Satan when I signed up for this game :D
I've DAed enough in Spitfires, for instace, to think I'm sort of a decent stick in them. Considering how much my gunner tends to suck, I could probably up the number of my kills by flying tnb style. But for me, it is honestly fun to slash through the red at insane speed like some kind of berserker while flying a hot-rod brick, snapping off shots, zoom up, do it again.
Heh...sometimes I like to keep upping tanks to a camped-spawn to, seeing if I can whack one or two "shooting from the hip" as quick as possible before they bag me.
Come to think of it, maybe I'm the one with a wierd idea of fun... :noid
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I fly mindless circle-jerk all day cause I'm a cartoon piwot and it is just a game, I don't care about my results (i never buy the orange or green properties in monopoly either), and just like every other circle-jerk cartoon pilot, I rock the most. If I chase you away once I should be immune. HiTech, can we have force fields so I can feed my ADHD craze without having to check my six because I think I really do care and ...oops, sorry, I'm just whining that everyone doesn't play like me.
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It sounds to me like the K-4 pilot either;
A. Was a n00b or
B. Didn't understand his plane.
In either case I can understand his actions.
If he was experienced and knew the K-4 and the Spit IX he could have dominated you.
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Wow scca 15 pages... the most iv ever gotten out of a post is like... 5 :cry
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That's his point I believe. We're not real WW2 fighter pilots. We don't die and we get new planes. Why not test yourself and your cartoon bird out and see if you can find the edge of the envelope instead of just staying where you feel 'safe'. There is no risk in dying, but there is the potential for learning something more about how to 'fly' if you take the 'risk' in fighting.
Let me get this straight, was this aimed at me or or the AH community in general? I agree with what you said but if you're aiming that at me then you don't know how I fly.
Apart from that. One thing to keep in mind is how a/c performance can hinder the effective use of an a/c in certain situations and certain parts of the envelope. Some a/c are better suited for certain purposes. (of course you all know this, just pointing it out) The FW190 series is quite obviously designed as a E fighter, it does not turn well compared to most (if not all) other a/c. I'm not saying that it can't be done, because it's up to the pilot ultimately, but given equal skill of both pilots it becomes a matter of performance comparison in which case the 190 get the short stick more often than not.
My point is, if someone is "running" from your viewpoint, it's probably only because he'd rather not get shot down by you. So what? Can you blame him for that? I think not. This whole blaming game is getting old real fast, and it's been going on forever. The debate is pointless, as people will always have different opinions about it. The smart people of this community are the ones who stay out of the pointless debate.
Let me tell you that I've met plenty of "runners" in this game and I don't mind one bit at all. Why? It's part of the game because it's up to you to decide how to play it. So if someone "run" from you, only to come back when you're engaged with someone else and kill you, sorry to break it to you and it may be hard to face but it's your own bloody fault. You can view it as "weak" or "less skilled" but it won't matter, because he lived, you died. Poor SA has been the bane of many a pilot. If you're out there alone, you need eyes in your neck and there is no such thing as a one-man-airforce.
All this debate is pointless and most of it can be filed under the "whining" category.
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I run in my 190 if them lame spitfire keep chasin me in circle. I'll just make big arse circle and still kill stuff and still out running the spitfire! I just won't fight it so I won't reward them people that fly nubbie plane =) and it sure feels good to see him chase me in big circle and still gets nothing.
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So, here's my reasoning for the existence of pickers and runners: They like to see that low number and high k/d ratio next to their name(possibly for lack of true accomplishments in actual life )..
Ya know, I think I found my answer.. This is the first thing that has made sense..
<S> Anodizer
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There are more people out there who fly the Spit XVI and don't know how to make the most of it, than there are people who fly a FW190 not knowing how to make the most of it. The difference being that the spit pilot die more often than the 190 because the 190 run away while the spit keep turning 'til he die. Thus the 190 stick get flamed for making it out of the fight alive.
The Spit XVI is one of the most popular a/c in the game. Most fly it like it was a hotted Spit I which is completely wrong. The Spit XVI is also a great E fighter which can turn much like a spit (pardon the pun). Yet I see people use E tactics in the XVI about as much as I see them furball on the deck in the 262.
Makes sense? Not really. My point is that not many see the a/c for what they are and use them to their fullest. Popular opinion is not always right. Think for yourself.
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One time I was really bored, so I took the La-7 up and hunted down all high profile pilots bnzming my base. It was sweet! but then they hope on 200 and cry at me for flying La-7, and all i did was lol back!
Translation ...
Look at me ... look at me ... I R l337.
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Today, farting around in the MA, I shot down five Fw-190s. Twice it was an individual coming in high while I was in an A-20 hunting GVs and trying to get me, 3 times were on Spitfire hops. All of them, after expending their E and ending up in front, made the mistake of doing something other than extending from a plane with superior maneuverabilty. I don't mind getting the kills, but at the same time, it kind of makes me shake my head. There was no need for them to "prove" anything to me by what amounts to letting me have very easy kills because their airframe absolutely cannot compete with mine in that particular corner of the envelope.
If there were no disengaging, top speed would be a useless trait, offensively and defensively. Sustained turn rate primarily and climb rate secondarily would be the end-all be-all, and the variety of planes that had anything going for them would be sharply curtailed. I've played a game that mimicked conditions similar to that, its called CFS3 online mode...spawn you at 200mph and 5K in the middle of the other tail-chasers, shoot whatever crosses in front of your sights until you yourself are inevitiably shot down. You and everyone else will be doing this in a Spit 99% of the time, because unlike AHII, Spit truly WAS a UFO in CFS, and the typical conditions were made for Spit only dominance. Maybe to some AH players this would be heaven, to me it was a mindless, unrealistic, hellish perversion of the stories of air combat I'd read since I was a boy.
Beautiful illustration and explanation, I couldn't have said it better myself ;)
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Beautiful illustration and explanation, I couldn't have said it better myself ;)
Zaz:
And back when I was playing CFS3 for awhile, myself, and maybe two other people would sometimes host games that were 4 on 4, realistic settings on ammo, fuel, flight model, etc, American and German prop jobs only (which in CFS3 pretty much were equals), spawning at high altitude with enough seperation to get a little speed up. These games were never as popular as the "arcade Spitfires" style games, and often enough you couldn't fill the roster, or people would come in, try their hand at flying a P-51 or Fw-190, and decide it was not for them.
Taste is inarguable I suppose.
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My point is, if someone is "running" from your viewpoint, it's probably only because he'd rather not get shot down by you. So what? Can you blame him for that? I think not. This whole blaming game is getting old real fast, and it's been going on forever. The debate is pointless, as people will always have different opinions about it. The smart people of this community are the ones who stay out of the pointless debate.
Disengaging in a poor turner from a slower plane to avoid being killed is absolutely no different than performing a sharp turn in a maneuverable plane to avoid being shot down by a plane that cannot turn that tightly.
Let's be honest here, anyone who takes up a Hurricane <insert favorite turny bird here>, myself included, solemnly preys to heaven and God that everyone we come across will attempt to turn with us and will not disengage under any circumstances. If someone does not choose to turn but instead disengages and/or BnZ's us, we shake our fist in anger and contempt then curse him as a coward...I have killed far better sticks than myself with a Hurricane, not because I flew better or they flew worse, but because they attempted to knife fight me with a plane that could not possibly contravene the hardcoded program data that is the flight parameters of the aircraft and compete in that area. Conversely, I have flown a poor turner and found myself in a knife fight with people who clearly do not have anywhere near my skill but were in a more maneuverable plane, so I get my bellybutton handed to me. Not because the guy flew better or I flew poorly, but because I put myself in a position where I was at the cold-hearted mercy of the hardcoded plane parameters which dictate I will absolutely be out-turned, no doubt about it.
The reverse can be said for a poor turner. When flying one of these birds I prey everyone I come across will attempt to run from me. If a Spit tries to run from a P51, 90% of the time he's dead, even if he attempts a break-turn at the last second. It is just as ridiculous to see a Zeke trying to run from an La7 as it is to see a Fw190 try to turnfight with a Hurricane.
Honestly, I sigh, take the kill and shake my head in bewilderment when I see people fly whatever plane they are in totally out of context. I guess in some perverse, "stick your wiener in a meatgrinder kind of way", they are "pushing" the envelope. But, 99% of the time they are just making themselves much easier to dispatch than they otherwise would be if they flew in a manner conducive to the hardcoded parameters of plane they selected in the hanger, nothing more, nothing less. I don't care how good you are or think you are, a P51 will always out-run a Zeke and a Zeke will always out-turn a P51.
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UGH ... I don't think that anybody was promoting pure stupidity when it comes to fighting.
For example ...
I will take my FM2 and aggressively attack an A6M5, knowing full well that if I don't get the upper hand in under 2-3 turns (horizontal or vertical) I am in deep doo doo ... especially if the Zeke stick knows what he is doing.
If things don't go right ... I will exit stage left ... and hopefully extend enough for me to reset the fight. Sometimes it works for me and sometimes is doesn't.
The point of the original post was ... I see a Zeke and say to myself ... There is a strong possibility that I will lose this fight, so I will extend way beyond the confrontational limits (keeping my self "safe" for fear of dying) ... and then re-enter into the scene when the Zeke is now engaged with someone else ... and then popping him.
FM2 vs Zeke ... I pretty much come out on the winning end of these fights, but I wouldn't be anywhere near as successful, if I always ran from encounters that I believed that I had no chance of winning. I died a lot in the beginning, but by learning from the experiences (the weaknesses of the opposing plane and the strengths of my plane), I can take on Zekes with confidence. I don't always win, but every time I lose ... I learn something new to take back to the next encounter.
In this game, it is only thru confrontation does one really learn ... and the amount learned is in direct correlation to the amounts and differing confrontations experienced.
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If things don't go right ... I will exit stage left ... and hopefully extend enough for me to reset the fight. Sometimes it works for me and sometimes is doesn't.
The point of the original post was ... I see a Zeke and say to myself ... There is a strong possibility that I will lose this fight, so I will extend way beyond the confrontational limits (keeping my self "safe" for fear of dying) ... and then re-enter into the scene when the Zeke is now engaged with someone else ... and then popping him.
Yea Slappy, myself and some others have agreed that judging by the OP'ers version of events the 109 in question was inexperienced and/or insecure with himself and/or his plane. I fully acknowledge the difference between keeping a turny bird at arms length and throwing in the towel completely. Although it definitely sucked, from a sportsmanship standpoint, that he returned later and took him out 2 vs 1, it is completely legitimate from a tactics point-of-view, especially if the Spit had an advantage on his countrymen. If his countryman were getting beaten by the OP's Spit or he was hollering on range for help, I can't blame the 109 a bit for clearing him, most of us would do the same. We're also assuming he knew it was the same Spit and was not off engaged with a hitherto unknown party during the interim.
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Yea Slappy, myself and some others have agreed that judging by the OP'ers version of events the 109 in question was inexperienced and/or insecure with himself and/or his plane. I fully acknowledge the difference between keeping a turny bird at arms length and throwing in the towel completely. Although it definitely sucked, from a sportsmanship standpoint, that he returned later and took him out 2 vs 1, it is completely legitimate from a tactics point-of-view, especially if the Spit had an advantage on his countrymen. If his countryman were getting beaten by the OP's Spit or he was hollering on range for help, I can't blame the 109 a bit for clearing him, most of us would do the same. We're also assuming he knew it was the same Spit and was not off engaged with a hitherto unknown party during the interim.
True ... whether his accounting of what actually transpired is true or not ... the picture painted is very much true throughout the arenas.
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I will take my FM2 and aggressively attack an A6M5, knowing full well that if I don't get the upper hand in under 2-3 turns (horizontal or vertical) I am in deep doo doo ... especially if the Zeke stick knows what he is doing.
The closer together two planes are on the maneuverability* spectrum the more reasonable it is to turn-fight, this goes for fast planes and slow planes. As in your example, the Fm2 and the Zeke are in the top 5 turners, superior flying skill or gunnery can often make the difference with that little of a disparity in relative performance, especially before the fight devolves to the purely horizontal. The same can be said of a turn-fight between a P51 and a P47 for example..
*Maneuverability as I conceive it is a net amalgam of turn-rate and roll-rate.
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Zaz:
And back when I was playing CFS3 for awhile, myself, and maybe two other people would sometimes host games that were 4 on 4, realistic settings on ammo, fuel, flight model, etc, American and German prop jobs only (which in CFS3 pretty much were equals), spawning at high altitude with enough seperation to get a little speed up. These games were never as popular as the "arcade Spitfires" style games, and often enough you couldn't fill the roster, or people would come in, try their hand at flying a P-51 or Fw-190, and decide it was not for them.
Taste is inarguable I suppose.
It's far more straightforward to yank n' bank for the "saddle" and hammer away in a tight turner than to exercise the precise timing, gunnery and finesse required to maneuver yourself into a position to score high deflection snap shots, usually out of plane, in a poor turner...That's why the vast majority of new players to the genre start off TnB'ing before some eventually migrate to the energy fighting methodology. Both potentially require alot of skill but, TnB'ing is simply the most direct and intuitive approach to air combat.
Energy fighting is, in a lot of ways, very counter-intuitive and in-direct. For example, to maximally exploit your energy in a poor turner you must often turn away from your opponent to gain separation, not with or toward him, doing so very gradually and smoothly to keep your G loading down. Then, at the precisely correct time, turn back toward the space where you predicted he would be before you began the maneuver.
Contrary to pure TnB'ing, when energy fighting you almost never want to turn your aircraft as tightly as possible, operating at the extreme edge of your flight envelope is an energy siphon. The energy fighting approach is very subtle and nuanced, often not as direct or straightforward as pure TnB'ing tends to be. It's not a complex endeavor to turn a Hurricane as tightly as it can to get around on another plane. Doing anything to its outermost extreme without the need for moderation is as straightforward as you can get, subtle moderation to exactly the correct degree is far more complex.
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Only read the last few pages, so I'll put my 2 cents in...winning one or two actual FIGHTS, where the outcome was in doubt more than a few times, then managing to land, is ever more gratifying than getting home with 5-6 picks/vulches. If there's no danger of actually dying, it's not unlike playing Quake with cheat-codes all turned on
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It's far more straightforward to yank n' bank for the "saddle" and hammer away in a tight turner than to exercise the precise timing, gunnery and finesse required to maneuver yourself into a position to score high deflection snap shots, usually out of plane, in a poor turner...That's why the vast majority of new players to the genre start off TnB'ing before some eventually migrate to the energy fighting methodology. Both potentially require alot of skill but, TnB'ing is simply the most direct and intuitive approach to air combat.
Energy fighting is, in a lot of ways, very counter-intuitive and in-direct. For example, to maximally exploit your energy in a poor turner you must often turn away from your opponent to gain separation, not with or toward him, doing so very gradually and smoothly to keep your G loading down. Then, at the precisely correct time, turn back toward the space where you predicted he would be before you began the maneuver.
Contrary to pure TnB'ing, when energy fighting you almost never want to turn your aircraft as tightly as possible, operating at the extreme edge of your flight envelope is an energy siphon. The energy fighting approach is very subtle and nuanced, often not as direct or straightforward as pure TnB'ing tends to be. It's not a complex endeavor to turn a Hurricane as tightly as it can to get around on another plane. Doing anything to its outermost extreme without the need for moderation is as straightforward as you can get, subtle moderation to exactly the correct degree is far more complex.
Ausgezeichnet! :aok
Here's one guy who understand what E-fighting and angle-fighting is all about. Few people on these boards recognize the skill needed to carry out precise BnZ maneuvering. I wish I was able to express myself better in english, I mean I'm not bad but could be a lot better because the precise wording and variations just aren't there. :(
:salute