Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: SEraider on March 25, 2010, 03:25:36 PM
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I have taken this idea from Jimson on A v A rocks but want to apply it to the MA.
What would happen is HiTech had one night a month (or at least try) no enemy icons, period. The reason why is from 6k out you can tell what is coming to you or in the vecinity. This gives you time to adjust, angles, speed, altitude, ect as the other plane does (could) before engagment. At 18,000 feet out you already know what you are going up against.
I think the dynamics of a fight/furball would change if no icons were on and everybody would find out up close what they are dealing with. I think this could be more realistic and make everybody approach a fight differently.
If I am in a P51 up close versus a spit or A6M, and if I decide to run, the opponent because of close proximity has a chance to shoot me down and make me "fly" my way out of trouble versus, just run.
Yes I know, I can turn icons off, but that is not what I am trying to do here. It's for everybody. :salute
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The issue with it in the MA is that you wouldn't be able to ID a plane enemy or friendly with certainty until it is very close.
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In the MA...... Not until they shoot. Or you shoot and killshoot yourself. The idea has a little bit of merit for AvA, but that is the only place it can work. Unless of course HTC decides to use rolling planesets and lose half the subscribers.
The issue with it in the MA is that you wouldn't be able to ID a plane enemy or friendly with certainty until it is very close.
I sort of remember that as the downfall of some other, lesser, flight-combat sim.
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I am the biggest fan of no icon in the world but using it in an all planes all sides environment is silly.
It is a concept that appeals to a very small percentage of players and rightfully belongs in an arena that is not the main attraction.
AH does it right with plenty of choice in its primary arenas enabling a large enough player base to allow offshoots like the AvA.
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In the MA...... Not until they shoot. Or you shoot and killshoot yourself. The idea has a little bit of merit for AvA, but that is the only place it can work. Unless of course HTC decides to use rolling planesets and lose half the subscribers.
I sort of remember that as the downfall of some other, lesser, flight-combat sim.
If the enemy plane is clearly close enough that it would have an icon if it were a friendly, you can tell it is an enemy.
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I sort of remember that as the downfall of some other, lesser, flight-combat sim.
Nah, that wasn't the downfall of it...it's stuck in the 90s with really stupid flight models for 90% of the aircraft in it...and the terrains stink.
But hey, it's been renamed, repackaged and is available to you for only $20 at your local gamestop.
Raider, though I like the idea it wouldn't work in the MA's...too many people flying on bare minimum settings with 15 inch laptops. The Main Arenas are for the general population and easy mode is default for a reason.
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I have taken this idea from Jimson on A v A rocks but want to apply it to the MA.
What would happen is HiTech had one night a month (or at least try) no enemy icons, period. The reason why is from 6k out you can tell what is coming to you or in the vecinity. This gives you time to adjust, angles, speed, altitude, ect as the other plane does (could) before engagment. At 18,000 feet out you already know what you are going up against.
I think the dynamics of a fight/furball would change if no icons were on and everybody would find out up close what they are dealing with. I think this could be more realistic and make everybody approach a fight differently.
If I am in a P51 up close versus a spit or A6M, and if I decide to run, the opponent because of close proximity has a chance to shoot me down and make me "fly" my way out of trouble versus, just run.
Yes I know, I can turn icons off, but that is not what I am trying to do here. It's for everybody. :salute
Why not just go in the AvA then? :lol
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So not really "no icons" but maybe 1k Icon Range? I wouldn't mind beta testing that idea for a while. :salute
If the enemy plane is clearly close enough that it would have an icon if it were a friendly, you can tell it is an enemy.
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a lot of people have the graphics turned down just to run the game. I think that would put them at a disadvantage to those with super computers.
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It's not system dependent... At 6K you cannot tell who is coming, going, a threat, or anything. At 6K all a plane is, is a "dot" on the screen.
I'm sorry, but the premise is faulty, and the resulting suggestion not applicable.
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I have a great computer and a big monitor, let me know when this will be.
Not so I can attend, but to make sure I don't log in. I have no interest in emulating 1945 Saburo Sakai with a stye in his one good eye.
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My thoughts:
1) Sure, eyesight was very important to RL WW2 pilots, but many (most?) of us are much older than any of them were at the time. Furthermore, most(all?) of our monitors don't have even remotely the same resolution as the vision of a young, healthy pilot. And our planes don't reflect the sun nearly as brightly as real ones. I can see an airliner flying overhead at 20k+ much better than I can make out a 6k+ dot in AH. All that adds up to this: Half or more of my deaths would to people I never saw not because I wasn't looking, but because they were smaller and more innocuous than a mote of dust on the monitor until it was too late to react at all.
There are many challenges I enjoy in this game, but testing my eyesight is not among them.
2) Assuming they'd still show up as red on the map, this would mean a huge increase in the value/tactical effectiveness of porking dar, because it would become the only reliable means of detecting enemies more than 2k out or so. IMHO dar is already too easy to pork and too frequently porked and this would only encourage it, but OTOH making it harder to pork would then give a huge advantage to defenders over what they have now.
3) Because of the above and the absence of ground controllers, clear and thorough communication of tactical info between all the members of a side would become much, much more important. I'm not sure our current radio capabilities could handle that much extra traffic, and it would be much tougher for newer players to learn and much more annoying for the veteran players having to hear the new players learning.
4) Couldn't the same thing be accomplished by having enemy icons at a certain range just be red range numbers, then as you got closer, 2 or 3k maybe, they would say "Ftr" or "Bmr" or "Hvy" (for 4-engine bombers), and only tell the plane type when you were up close - say, inside 1000 yards? That would satisfy the stated purpose - preventing players from having unrealistic knowledge of what they're facing 6k away - but wouldn't make as drastic changes to game balance as those outlined above.
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... using it in an all planes all sides environment is silly.
Dawger is the only one addressing the obvious ...
How would one know if a P-51D is a rook, knight, or bishop?
No icons only works when the planes differ between countries, as in AvA.
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Dawger is the only one addressing the obvious ...
How would one know if a P-51D is a rook, knight, or bishop?
No icons only works when the planes differ between countries, as in AvA.
If I may clarify, friendly Icons on. And maybe the a red country ensign could show.
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My thoughts:
1) Sure, eyesight was very important to RL WW2 pilots, but many (most?) of us are much older than any of them were at the time. Furthermore, most(all?) of our monitors don't have even remotely the same resolution as the vision of a young, healthy pilot. And our planes don't reflect the sun nearly as brightly as real ones. I can see an airliner flying overhead at 20k+ much better than I can make out a 6k+ dot in AH. All that adds up to this: Half or more of my deaths would to people I never saw not because I wasn't looking, but because they were smaller and more innocuous than a mote of dust on the monitor until it was too late to react at all.
There are many challenges I enjoy in this game, but testing my eyesight is not among them.
2) Assuming they'd still show up as red on the map, this would mean a huge increase in the value/tactical effectiveness of porking dar, because it would become the only reliable means of detecting enemies more than 2k out or so. IMHO dar is already too easy to pork and too frequently porked and this would only encourage it, but OTOH making it harder to pork would then give a huge advantage to defenders over what they have now.
3) Because of the above and the absence of ground controllers, clear and thorough communication of tactical info between all the members of a side would become much, much more important. I'm not sure our current radio capabilities could handle that much extra traffic, and it would be much tougher for newer players to learn and much more annoying for the veteran players having to hear the new players learning.
4) Couldn't the same thing be accomplished by having enemy icons at a certain range just be red range numbers, then as you got closer, 2 or 3k maybe, they would say "Ftr" or "Bmr" or "Hvy" (for 4-engine bombers), and only tell the plane type when you were up close - say, inside 1000 yards? That would satisfy the stated purpose - preventing players from having unrealistic knowledge of what they're facing 6k away - but wouldn't make as drastic changes to game balance as those outlined above.
Point well taken, especially #3 and #4. I find no problem with your idea of "Ftr" or "Bmr" or "Hvy" (for 4-engine bombers).
My idea is simply that our collective approach to combat would be different if we had no enemy or limited enemy icons. I think it is a fair offset of the different stregnths of each aircraft.
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Why not just go in the AvA then? :lol
Because the A v A, you are certain to know exactly what you are up against and you have some preparation to engage the enemy if time permits.
In the MA though, you may not know what you are up against until you are close enough, thus changing your approach to combat. But as another suggested in this thread, instead of no enemy icon (yes on friendly), have limited enemy icon as in country, ftr, bmb. Thats it.
I figure it could change things.
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The AvA has friendly icons at 2.1k and in I believe is what they said, So if your inside of 2k and no icon you know it's an enemy. I really enjoy the no icons and having to check your high 6 in fights and losing sight of the enemy for a split second. I landed 6 kills in 109e4 against hurri1's and spit1's the other night and I'm telling ya it's so much fun. Just being engaged 1v1 it's so much different when your performing your maneuvers you basically know where there at and what moves you need to perform next but it's just when your looking up towards the sun and see just the gray outline how realistic it is.
I think 1 night a month or 1 night a week and friendly icons turned on at 2+k distance wouldnt be a bad thing. I think alot of people would enjoy it, just my opinion maybe not I don't know. Either way not a bad idea to change it up alittle.
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This is in response to requests for a totally-no-icons MA:
I see I'm getting no responce to my very direct question from the naysayers... ... conveniently avoiding the question speaks volumes........
Id recommend getting some experience under your belt before you squawk.... Pepole tend to mock what they don't understand.
Try it you'll like it :aok
RaVe
How about a direct response from me.
It's not going to happen.
Is that direct enough?
HiTech
Now, going off of this comment and HiTech's previous posting about how human eyes can see way more than computer monitors, and how HiTech explains that icons fill a gap that technology can't replicate, I'm going to say this answer also applies to "friendly only" icons requests for the MA.
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I can hear it now.. Them dam 262`s you cant see them coming they should be disabled :rofl No icons in the MA is really not a good idea at all..
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with no icons you will need a series of spotters on the ground to let friendlies know from where the enemy is coming. You cant make it a free fire zone if you dont know there are no friendlies in the area. You want more realism, you need more resources. If not be lots of wated time in chasing a group of friendlies because you think they were enemy dots. Spotters is they way that worked before radar
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with no icons you will need a series of spotters on the ground to let friendlies know from where the enemy is coming. You cant make it a free fire zone if you dont know there are no friendlies in the area. You want more realism, you need more resources. If not be lots of wated time in chasing a group of friendlies because you think they were enemy dots. Spotters is they way that worked before radar
There is no change in the dar. There is no change in dots other than if it's a friendly, you would know. On a global scale, there is not much difference anyways.
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I have taken this idea from Jimson on A v A rocks but want to apply it to the MA.
What would happen is HiTech had one night a month (or at least try) no enemy icons, period. The reason why is from 6k out you can tell what is coming to you or in the vecinity. This gives you time to adjust, angles, speed, altitude, ect as the other plane does (could) before engagment. At 18,000 feet out you already know what you are going up against.
I think the dynamics of a fight/furball would change if no icons were on and everybody would find out up close what they are dealing with. I think this could be more realistic and make everybody approach a fight differently.
If I am in a P51 up close versus a spit or A6M, and if I decide to run, the opponent because of close proximity has a chance to shoot me down and make me "fly" my way out of trouble versus, just run.
Yes I know, I can turn icons off, but that is not what I am trying to do here. It's for everybody. :salute
Not for me, thanks! I tried the iconless "Hairshirt Arena" back in WarBirds: pointlessly chasing dots all over the sky. I did not enjoy it, and have no wish to return.
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I think most of you MA pilots can't nutt up to the AvA icon settings... imagine, the nerve of having to ID a unknown bogey...
:lol
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I have a great computer and a big monitor, let me know when this will be.
I have a decent computer with a 24" monitor, too, with HiRes graphs and sliders upped from default. Can you tell from these original size screenshots, what planes they are, and are they attacking or running? As you can see, they are from 1,5k. In scenarios having the icon range at 3k I have often tried to rub dots off my monitor thinking they were dust, until they've changed direction or altitude. Not to mention chasing flower/fruit flies hovering over a bunch of dots furballing...
(http://www.telemail.fi/petrin.atk-apu/Icons.bmp)
The left one is the P38, right the 190, screenshots taken offline.
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I have a decent computer with a 24" monitor, too, with HiRes graphs and sliders upped from default. Can you tell from these original size screenshots, what planes they are, and are they attacking or running? As you can see, they are from 1,5k. In scenarios having the icon range at 3k I have often tried to rub dots off my monitor thinking they were dust, until they've changed direction or altitude. Not to mention chasing flower/fruit flies hovering over a bunch of dots furballing...
(http://www.telemail.fi/petrin.atk-apu/Icons.bmp)
The left one is the P38, right the 190, screenshots taken offline.
I suppose you think 1500 yards is close. Walk 1500 yards from your house and let me know if you can still see it.
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Anytime anyone doesn't want icons, hit 'alt I' until they all go away.
Problem solved.
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Anytime anyone doesn't want icons, hit 'alt I' until they all go away.
Problem solved.
No Del, you are missing the point. They don't want to fly with no icons. They want you to fly with no icons :lol They don't want "realism" for themselves. They want realism for you :rofl
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no enemy icons(2.1k friendly icons) seems to work in the AVA. that's fine. its a good place for it. However it wouldn't, or won't work in the MA's because there are too many people learning the game and the no icons would increase the learning curve.
there are also too many people dependant on the icons to be able to switch to no icons. its just not for them. those that like NO enemy icons fly the AVA, those that don't, the MA are a target rich environment. pretty simple.
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no enemy icons(2.1k friendly icons) seems to work in the AVA. that's fine. its a good place for it. However it wouldn't, or won't work in the MA's because there are too many people learning the game and the no icons would increase the learning curve.
there are also too many people dependant on the icons to be able to switch to no icons. its just not for them. those that like NO enemy icons fly the AVA, those that don't, the MA are a target rich environment. pretty simple.
:aok
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I hear guys say this from time to time and while it sounds like a hoot and all. This is a computer game. The icons are there to facilitate a general lack of depth perception and clarity, not to mention the absence of a true third dimension. At 6K in real life an airplane might be distinguishable to one with above average eyesight and aircraft recognition skills. But as our esteemed friend Krusty mentioned, at 6K in this video game, even with a really good computer and monitor, an airplane is just a dot.
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I have a really low performing 15" laptop, but I still had great fun in AvA the other night fighting enemies with no icon. It really makes the realism go up a few notches! And the fun factor also, even if it was alot harder to get any kills because I had to spend so much more time and effort on scanning the skies for other enemies during the fights..
There can be one lurking around u hiding in the terrain, and u don't even know he's there until.. BOOOM! :O
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I have taken this idea from Jimson on A v A rocks but want to apply it to the MA.
What would happen is HiTech had one night a month (or at least try) no enemy icons, period. The reason why is from 6k out you can tell what is coming to you or in the vecinity. This gives you time to adjust, angles, speed, altitude, ect as the other plane does (could) before engagment. At 18,000 feet out you already know what you are going up against.
I think the dynamics of a fight/furball would change if no icons were on and everybody would find out up close what they are dealing with. I think this could be more realistic and make everybody approach a fight differently.
If I am in a P51 up close versus a spit or A6M, and if I decide to run, the opponent because of close proximity has a chance to shoot me down and make me "fly" my way out of trouble versus, just run.
Yes I know, I can turn icons off, but that is not what I am trying to do here. It's for everybody. :salute
Nope. I'd hate it.
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It's just not true that this is about some trying to gain an advantage, no one is advocating turning off icons only for the other side, and no one knows if the opponent has better or worse video equip than they.
Whether the realism is accurate or perceived, it's all about the immersion, which is why I advocate it only for the Axis vs Allies arena.
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It's just not true that this is about some trying to gain an advantage, no one is advocating turning off icons only for the other side, and no one knows if the opponent has better or worse video equip than they.
Whether the realism is accurate or perceived, it's all about the immersion, which is why I advocate it only for the Axis vs Allies arena.
Agreed, but you are talking about your personal immersion experience. You can achieve that by turning off icons, putting a bullet in your head when you get a PW etc. What ever it takes or works for you (you meaning anyone looking for realism and immersion). Why worry about my settings and my immersion experience?
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Agreed, but you are talking about your personal immersion experience. You can achieve that by turning off icons, putting a bullet in your head when you get a PW etc. What ever it takes or works for you (you meaning anyone looking for realism and immersion). Why worry about my settings and my immersion experience?
Well, because you still want somewhat of a level playing field, and to really set the arena apart from the others, I guess.
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I brought this idea up a few years ago even Hitech got involved. So I suggested a seperate arena. I was tired of the cumplusive picker just diving for a red icon and not looking for a fight.
I havent flown in the Ma in weeks. Ive been in the AvA a bunch and ww1.
Couple of things
1. I think the guys that no icons appeals to have a different standard for what they want and are looking for in a fight. So having an arena that we can go to for this makes it work.
2. Forcing all the (..............) in the MA who say stupid things like "turn yours off" is just a waste of time they have no intrest in it. For them AH is pwnage of icons in the MA. They like having 99% noobs to pawn.
3. It will stay fun if its just a few of us keep the flamers out. They dont want it. Let them fly in the sewer pond know as the MA. We need a place to send the carp.
4. It is forcing them to play a way they don't want to. We see it as fun they can't see it and thats ok.
5. IMO I don't think it will work on a large scale anyway.
I do think what happens is we have so much fun in AvA we we try to go back to MA its just icky. Our perspective changes a bit. Just something you can't share with those living on Myopia ave. They will just have to check it out for themselves. I'll just have to shower each time I visit the MA in the future. So far I log after just a few minutes in there. <Tired of the same old stuff. So AvA is great for me.
So its.
Lemmings over the cliff in the DA
Sewer Carp in the Ma
The real pilots in the AvA
:devil :devil :devil :devil :devil :devil :bolt:
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I suppose you think 1500 yards is close. Walk 1500 yards from your house and let me know if you can still see it.
I admit that if I walk 1500 yards from here, I can't see my house. But it is due to terrain structures and objects, not the distance. In the summer while trolling on the nearby lake I can tell the direction of a 5 m (half the length of a tiny Bf 109, no wings) open boat from 5 k. And in the air where there's even less disturbing elements, this study (http://www.cwu.edu/~boersmas/mcm/protected/2000A2.pdf) says that if two planes are heading towards each other, there must be enough space between them to perform evasive maneuvers. We find that 12 s is required; at normal flight speed, this translates to 2.9 km or 1.8 mi.
So clearly, a real life pilot should be able to tell from more than 3000 yards another plane's direction. From that point of view 1500 yards is close.
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This is in response to requests for a totally-no-icons MA:
Krusty, sorry but you're wrong...that thread was for no enemy icons in the WWI arena. I know HiTech did say it wasn't going to happen, in any of the main arenas but...that statement was false.
I hear guys say this from time to time and while it sounds like a hoot and all. This is a computer game. The icons are there to facilitate a general lack of depth perception and clarity, not to mention the absence of a true third dimension. At 6K in real life an airplane might be distinguishable to one with above average eyesight and aircraft recognition skills. But as our esteemed friend Krusty mentioned, at 6K in this video game, even with a really good computer and monitor, an airplane is just a dot.
I see a couple of you guys spouting how the human eye sees blah blah at 6k and so on...you do realize you're talking a different between yards and feet? Just in case you didn't catch it yourselves...from the cockpit 6k in AH is 18000 feet...and even if you have perfect vision, you could not tell the difference between a Spit16 and a P-40 from 18000 feet...doesn't matter if you can see a passenger jet flying at 21,000 feet, if you were honest with yourself you know you couldn't tell if it was a 707, 727 or 767 from 21000 feet away. Next time an airshow is in your area, park your car a mile away (5,280 feet or 1.7k in AH terms) from the airfield, then watch the WWII birds fly around the field and see for yourselves what details are visible...without binoculars.
Still it's not something to that should be forced on the masses in the main arenas even once a month.
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idea=fail.
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You guys fly with icons on in the MA...? lol.. dweebs
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I don't see why they don't just do it, repurpose WWI Dueling Arena 4 or something. Let it fill up for 3 or 4 days as all the current subscribers see something different when they start the game, log in, try it for 15 minutes and go, 'Hey, this really blows.' when they realize it's not for them and head back to the MA. After that has run its course, let the 17 guys in the game who keep asking for it ad nauseum go in and feel awesome about their ability to bounce people from on high 2-3 at a time depending on which timezone they're in and their schedules.
Problem solved! :aok
Wiley.
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let the 17 guys in the game who keep asking for it ad nauseum go in and feel awesome about their ability to bounce people from on high 2-3 at a time depending on which timezone they're in and their schedules.
Problem solved! :aok
Wiley.
Always with the negative vibes, Moriarity, always with the negative vibes!
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Still it's not something that should be forced on the masses in the main arenas even once a month.
+1 Keep it in AvA only.
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Still it's not something to that should be forced on the masses in the main arenas even once a month.
Sums it up. The option for no icons is there. Individual can turn them off or the AvA for now.
If you are going to worry about mine being on and want to force me to fly with them off, I have some things I'd like forced on you too.
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Always with the negative vibes, Moriarity, always with the negative vibes!
But the negativity, bitterness and hatred keep me going...
Honestly it might work here, the dots show up at a decent range, you get a pretty decent sense of them closing. Definitely better than in other games I've seen.
I think this would be an excellent opportunity though with 3 WWI arenas collecting dust to give the idea a try. Definitely AvA only, with limited skins. Also take away the zoom feature. If you're going to do it, do it right.
Then after a week we can move on to the 'Ok, this is why there is nobody in the arena and what HTC needs to change to fix it.' portion of the program.
Wiley.
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Also take away the zoom feature. If you're going to do it, do it right.
A closer representation of normal vission perception is the default gun zoom. But it leaves you with out any perfial vision.
Just thought you'd like to know.
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Hrm... interesting. Is that based on monitor size x at a specific distance from your eye? Basically at default zoom that's 'life size' on that monitor?
Off to do some forum searching...
Wiley.
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The truth is, neither approach is perfectly realistic.
In the balance, you are far less likely to be able to do a successful surprise "bounce" in an arena with icon. However, is causing fights instead of bounces a bad thing?
Note: I kinda of doubt friendly-icons-only would facilitate bounces. You see a large dot, it has no green icon, you know it's a bad guy. Duh.
I have played in no-icon arenas in Il2. It is not a very inspiring experiences. Consists almost entirely of players wandering around, occasionally spotting and picking each other. Friendly fire is a problem, even with the highest zoom and best graphics/monitor combo, very hard to tell some kinds of planes from another. Hoing is a problem, you don't know whether you're coming or going until it's too late.
In an imperfect flight sim world, ICONs are still the best solution IMHO.
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The truth is, neither approach is perfectly realistic.
True...but I'm not sure "perfect realism" is the idea...at least not for the people enjoying the AvA settings...it's just a more immersive experience.
In the balance, you are far less likely to be able to do a successful surprise "bounce" in an arena with icon. However, is causing fights instead of bounces a bad thing?
Note: I kinda of doubt friendly-icons-only would facilitate bounces. You see a large dot, it has no green icon, you know it's a bad guy. Duh.
Not really...it's pretty much a wash whether it's a dot your looking at or a dot with an icon hiding it...any dot is cause for suspicion when the enemy icons are missing and the friendly is set to 3k.
In an imperfect flight sim world, ICONs are still the best solution IMHO.
In spite of your experiences in IL2...this is AH and there are some big differences...you should try the AvA when a bunch of us are in there...then give your opinion.
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The point is, they've still got to see the dot, as opposed to a dot with a big red sign below it. It's easier to miss it in the clutter of the screen/with a quick glance. Obviously, if you see the dot, you can keep an eye on it.
Looking for a 'bounce' versus looking for a 'fight' is exactly the delineating line. Some people like to take off and treat it somewhat "like real life". They garner every advantage, fly conservatively, and do everything they can to RTB after killing something, preferably without the guy even seeing them. It's fun for them to fly conservatively and to survive. They pays their 15 bucks, they flies their planes how they want to. I've got no problem with it.
Sometimes I'm in the mood for that kind of gameplay. Most of the time though I fall somewhere in the middle. I climb somewhat so I have E on the guys that are really down in the weeds and I find the biggest bar dar I can, and go 'work the crowd.' I get all kinds of fights then. I get high stuff, co-alt stuff, and low stuff to fight with. That's fun for me, to see if I can survive without stacking the deck too far in my direction. My K/D reflects this choice... ;)
Then there are the nights after a bad day at work when my copilot is Captain Morgan, my navigator is Leeroy Jenkins, and I'm down there in the weeds TnBing and doing 'stupid' things.
The problem with the first set of guys, if you get an arena with 95% of that playstyle, you're just going to wind up with a great, giant bunch of aircraft climbing to infinity and beyond so they can have the advantage before they attack. Two constantly moving of lines aircraft that try to move in, see there are planes with alt and/or speed on them, and reverse... until they all run out of gas.
A supply of people who aren't trying to do the same thing as they are makes it easier for them to get into fights. There tend to be more lower fights, which is why people quite often ask for it to be put into a populated arena 'so people can nut up and fly with their manly man no icon settings.'
Wiley.
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I guess that's why we have vanilla, chocolate, and strawberry.
There does seem to be a market for no/limited icon settings, so having them in one arena that doesn't get much play anymore otherwise seems to be a good balance.
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Anytime anyone doesn't want icons, hit 'alt I' until they all go away.
Problem solved.
That is not what my thread is about Del, please go back and re-read it. Especially my last lines.
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Still it's not something to that should be forced on the masses in the main arenas even once a month.
Fine, I am not saying it to force it on anybody. But I would not mind trying it one time in the special arena one night to see what the differences are in combat dynamics with all aircraft enabled. Some who don't want to try it stay in the MA.
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It's for everybody. :salute
Why?
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Fine, I am not saying it to force it on anybody. But I would not mind trying it one time in the special arena one night to see what the differences are in combat dynamics with all aircraft enabled. Some who don't want to try it stay in the MA.
Done in AvA and select few scenarios. Majority don't like it. Why another experiment?
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The point is, they've still got to see the dot, as opposed to a dot with a big red sign below it. It's easier to miss it in the clutter of the screen/with a quick glance. Obviously, if you see the dot, you can keep an eye on it.
But that is true even with full icons...you can lose sight of one in the clutter at any time, and even with icons on you still have to take the time to find it again...at the ranges involved with an engaged fight, icons don't really make a difference.
Looking for a 'bounce' versus looking for a 'fight' is exactly the delineating line. Some people like to take off and treat it somewhat "like real life". They garner every advantage, fly conservatively, and do everything they can to RTB after killing something, preferably without the guy even seeing them. It's fun for them to fly conservatively and to survive. They pays their 15 bucks, they flies their planes how they want to. I've got no problem with it.
Come on Wiley, that is true regardless of the arena and you know it...having no enemy icons does not make people more prone to "play it safe" in spite of what you might think...it just makes the fight more challenging.
Sometimes I'm in the mood for that kind of gameplay. Most of the time though I fall somewhere in the middle. I climb somewhat so I have E on the guys that are really down in the weeds and I find the biggest bar dar I can, and go 'work the crowd.' I get all kinds of fights then. I get high stuff, co-alt stuff, and low stuff to fight with. That's fun for me, to see if I can survive without stacking the deck too far in my direction. My K/D reflects this choice... ;)
I don't think you're all alone in that boat...that is all I do unless it's squad night.
A supply of people who aren't trying to do the same thing as they are makes it easier for them to get into fights. There tend to be more lower fights, which is why people quite often ask for it to be put into a populated arena 'so people can nut up and fly with their manly man no icon settings.'
Wiley.
You really need to visit the AvA when a bunch of us are in there...you would be surprised at what happens. While I was on last night was not atypical due to the large number of Brewsters flying around and the B239's performance...and I don't agree with the setup but...it was fun none the less. Some of just enjoy a challenge regardless of the inevitable outcome.
Done in AvA and select few scenarios. Majority don't like it. Why another experiment?
Majority? Surely you jest...I see maybe 5 or 6 naysayers out of something like 40 or 50 bbs regulars and somewhere in the neighborhood of 600 active AH players...is the 1% talking for the other 99% now?
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Done in AvA and select few scenarios. Majority don't like it. Why another experiment?
Which scenarios? In special arenas or just A v A? If it is just the A v A, it is limited to known aircraft. Are you sure majority don't like it? Or the majority on just the bbs? Only a small percentage contribute to bbs and most don't like changes as it is. That is a broad statement. Has this idea ever been tried in a broad spectum of aircraft? How could that change combat? That is a worthy experiment (although the development of this thread puts me into a tiny minority). :salute
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But that is true even with full icons...you can lose sight of one in the clutter at any time, and even with icons on you still have to take the time to find it again...at the ranges involved with an engaged fight, icons don't really make a difference.
Sure. The fact that the icon doesn't show unless you can see the airframe also makes them have less of an impact. I'm just saying with a quick six check, it's a lot easier to miss a dot than it is a block of red text.
Come on Wiley, that is true regardless of the arena and you know it...having no enemy icons does not make people more prone to "play it safe" in spite of what you might think...it just makes the fight more challenging.
Yeah, but one of the biggest talking points of the no icon crowd is that it negates the bounce, or the low six sneak. Not saying the no icons causes it, but I think you'd find the vast majority (I'd bet at least 13 of the 17 ;) ) of the no icon crowd has that playstyle, or pretty close to it.
Really, SEraider, I don't think it would change gameplay that much vs the AvA.
Wiley.
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1.) Why are there icons now?
2.) How many times people came up with such a brilliant idea as no icons? Why and what happened to those ideas/proposals?
3.) Why do we have icons now?
4.) If others can't understand what a grand idea that is, why you guys simply don't ask HiTech to change the arena settings.
5.) Why are there icons now?
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Looking for a 'bounce' versus looking for a 'fight' is exactly the delineating line. Some people like to take off and treat it somewhat "like real life". They garner every advantage, fly conservatively, and do everything they can to RTB after killing something, preferably without the guy even seeing them. It's fun for them to fly conservatively and to survive. They pays their 15 bucks, they flies their planes how they want to. I've got no problem with it.
Wiley.
What do you know :lol I was not full of watermelon when I was talking about why people like the no icons and about the quality of the so called "fights" :rofl
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I was not full of watermelon when I was talking...
That was probably the only time :neener:
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1.) Why are there icons now?
2.) How many times people came up with such a brilliant idea as no icons? Why and what happened to those ideas/proposals?
3.) Why do we have icons now?
4.) If others can't understand what a grand idea that is, why you guys simply don't ask HiTech to change the arena settings.
5.) Why are there icons now?
1, 3, and 5 - I don't know why exactly, fill me in. I did not make the game.
2 and 4 - I have no clue how many others before me came up with this "brilliant" idea. Frankly, Skuzzy does not appreciate people calling him for every idea and request, I speculate. That's why the bbs is here. We can write our ideas, he can ignore them 99% of the time and go about his business.
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Yeah, but one of the biggest talking points of the no icon crowd is that it negates the bounce, or the low six sneak. Not saying the no icons causes it, but I think you'd find the vast majority (I'd bet at least 13 of the 17 ;) ) of the no icon crowd has that playstyle, or pretty close to it.
You obviously haven't been in the AvA recently, otherwise you would not have posted such nonsense... :neener:
Neither has Bighorn or Dedalos...but they keep talking like they know what's going on too... :joystick:
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SEraider, do you remember the night in AH? Do you know why we don't have it anymore?
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SEraider, do you remember the night in AH? Do you know why we don't have it anymore?
I don't know what you are talking about.
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I don't know what you are talking about.
The night time. No sun, but moon and stars. The darkness. The evil of realism. And most of what you described in your first post.
Guess what happened?
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You obviously haven't been in the AvA recently, otherwise you would not have posted such nonsense... :neener:
I'll grant you the point that I haven't been in there. When I've noticed the AvA logging in, it's had around 30-50 players in it. 15v15 doesn't really do it for me on a typical evening.
Sure, when one group of that type gets caught low on takeoff by a higher group of the same type, you get low fighting. :neener: The large amount of Brewsters you mentioned tells me the AvA probably gets used for getting familiar with this week's FSO plane by some. That negates the altmonkeying to a certain degree as well.
But in an all planes all the time arena, I feel pretty comfortable saying it would be a good deal of fast aircraft going to ludicrous alt before engaging, only their job of picking is easier due to the lack of a hit-me sticker.
Bighorn- What happened was, he fixes the cable, didn't he?
Wiley.
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Lo and when the night fell across the land, the aces of high fell upon their twinkies and crieth out unto the lord HiTech,
Saying, Lord please let there be light for the darkness maketh us to miss the battle and plow the earth exceedingly with our machines.
And the Lord HiTech sayeth unto the aces of high, I have given thee gamma that thou mayest change as thou wisheth to see that which art not seen.
And the aces of high cried again unto the Lord HiTech, but we cannot maketh the gamma to work as thou promised us in the gospel of readme,
it maketh our eyes to hurt when the sun again riseth upon the land and doth make battle unseemly, and the cry upon the land was great.
Then the Lord HiTech sayeth unto the aces of high, yea tho I have given thee tools with which to do battle upon the night thou crieth unto the heavens greatly that mine ears hurt from the sound, I shall grant thee eternal light that thou shalt not have to tilleth the land with thy machines or misseth one upon the other in battle.
That's what happened Raider.
it's friday and i'm at the office bored... :D
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The night time. No sun, but moon and stars. The darkness. The evil of realism. And most of what you described in your first post.
Guess what happened?
I was not playing yet in those days.
But I hear people saying who did, they missed it. I heard more people say they liked it than not.
There is hardly a correlation between night time flying and no enemy icons. Unless I am missing your point.
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Lo and when the night fell across the land, the aces of high fell upon their twinkies and crieth out unto the lord HiTech,
Saying, Lord please let there be light for the darkness maketh us to miss the battle and plow the earth exceedingly with our machines.
And the Lord HiTech sayeth unto the aces of high, I have given thee gamma that thou mayest change as thou wisheth to see that which art not seen.
And the aces of high cried again unto the Lord HiTech, but we cannot maketh the gamma to work as thou promised us in the gospel of readme,
it maketh our eyes to hurt when the sun again riseth upon the land and doth make battle unseemly, and the cry upon the land was great.
Then the Lord HiTech sayeth unto the aces of high, yea tho I have given thee tools with which to do battle upon the night thou crieth unto the heavens greatly that mine ears hurt from the sound, I shall grant thee eternal light that thou shalt not have to tilleth the land with thy machines or misseth one upon the other in battle.
That's what happened Raider.
it's friday and i'm at the office bored... :D
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
I am hardly productive at the office today too. Which means I am staying late again. :)
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I was not playing yet in those days.
But I hear people saying who did, they missed it. I heard more people say they liked it than not.
There is hardly a correlation between night time flying and no enemy icons. Unless I am missing your point.
BS more people logged.
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But I hear people saying who did, they missed it. I heard more people say they liked it than not.
That's no surprise at all. Because those who are contend with the current setup have no reason to say anything. Those who are missing something are much more likely to voice their opinion.
People with a complaint are much more likely to voice their opinion than those who are happy.
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BS more people logged.
Maybe, I was not there and I heard differently.
That's no surprise at all. Because those who are contend with the current setup have no reason to say anything. Those who are missing something are much more likely to voice their opinion.
People with a complaint are much more likely to voice their opinion than those who are happy.
I guess nobody here can quantify either end of the spectrum then....
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There are a few different type of players here. Some just want to fly and shoot, some are really into the historical aspect and want to max the fantasy of being a WW2 fighter pilot.
Some are in between.
The biggest reason to fly in the Axis versus Allies arena is if you are one of the "historical fantasy" immersion types.
That is why the percieved realism of a no-icon setting is a natural for that arena and no other.
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That was probably the only time :neener:
Like you would remember old one?
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The problem with the first set of guys, if you get an arena with 95% of that playstyle, you're just going to wind up with a great, giant bunch of aircraft climbing to infinity and beyond so they can have the advantage before they attack. Two constantly moving of lines aircraft that try to move in, see there are planes with alt and/or speed on them, and reverse... until they all run out of gas.
Unless they have something to accomplish. A goal that makes the risk worth it.
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You obviously haven't been in the AvA recently, otherwise you would not have posted such nonsense... :neener:
Neither has Bighorn or Dedalos...but they keep talking like they know what's going on too... :joystick:
How could I possibly know what I like and what I have seen during my years here? Impossible. :lol
Did you read the post I responded to? It describes exactly what I am talking about. I bet you if you some search you will find the same guy calling BS on me and how the fights are great.
At list I am honest about it lol
You guys are so desperate to bring people in the AvA you are spamming every thread and forum. This thread was not about the AvA. This forum is not about the AvA. Shooo :D
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Hrm... interesting. Is that based on monitor size x at a specific distance from your eye? Basically at default zoom that's 'life size' on that monitor?
It's based on resolution as well as apparent size. Your eye can see a lot more than even the best monitor and graphics card can show, in terms of detail, depth perception, and light levels.
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It's based on resolution as well as apparent size. Your eye can see a lot more than even the best monitor and graphics card can show, in terms of detail, depth perception, and light levels.
Yup that is why we have zoom, Icons and range.
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1. No icons is a non-realistic difficulty level. You can see far, far more inflight than you can see on a computer monitor. Thank Cod HT has done a lot of flying himself and KNOWS the truth of this. The truth is he's created a damn good system to make up for the inability of monitors to display what the eye could easily see in flight.
2. If you feel the need for a higher difficulty level, he has provided you with a lot of options. You can shrink the size of your personal icons by adjusting font size. You can completely turn them off on your computer. You can choose to play in the AvA when they're doing no icon setups.
3. If you feel the need to increase the difficulty level for OTHER players, pony up the $15 a month for them to play your way.
I get seriously tired of the folks that claim no icons somehow is more "realistic". Most of these people have never flown an airplane. Just one example that you guys might try next time you go on an airliner. Get a window seat. Once you're in cruise odds are you'll be anywhere from the mid 20k up to the mid 30k. When you fly over an interstate, check to see how easy it is to see the cars from 10k yards or so. How easy it is to tell a semi from a car. The vast majority of yas just don't know what you're talking about.
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Here's another Real Life example that I posted a long time ago when this endlessly brought up subject was being discussed.
Well Pei, I can tell you this for a true fact:
At 2 miles both my copilot and I could make out individual windows on other airliners at cruise altitudes. This was over the Atlantic on the NAT tracks, on a clear day with little or no haze, when you've got nothing but time to wonder about stuff.
How do I know it was two miles? First of all, the TCAS transponder system that gives range, altitude and general direction of other participating aircraft.
Secondly, crossing waypoints and giving time reports. We'd cross the same waypoint. I'd just listen to the time they reported and compare our time/distance on the GPS FMS unit.
When you follow a guy for 4 hours, 2 miles in trail (or a bit off to the side; evreybody's GPS and FMS are a tiny bit different usually) and 2000 feet below you have plenty of time to look at him.
Those windows are roughly the size of a kid's notebook paper. Call it 12X10 inches and you'd be close. You could actually count them at 2 miles.
You could see the little American flag on US carriers' tails out past a mile. It's not as big as a Spit roundel.
So yeah, I think you could. Easily.
You guys don't seem to realize that the high, thin, clear air allows much longer distance vision. MUCH longer.
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I hope the HTC will bring the 'CM forced icon type' option same time with the next gen h2h.
Then the 'No Icons' / 'Friendly Icons Only' interested folks can host the rooms for same minded people.
Everybody are happy.
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Here's another Real Life example that I posted a long time ago when this endlessly brought up subject was being discussed.
Your "REAL LIFE" example is demonstrably false. It is actually physically impossible. The resolution of the human eye just isn't anywhere near that good.
But don't let science stand in the way of a good story proving your point.
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Dawger, a lot of real life pilots actually fly AH. A lot of folks that have an interest, passion, fascination with all aspects aviation, and along with that many hundreds, if not thousands of years of accumulated first hand experience.
Many even combat fighter pilots.
They all state, with first hand evidence, that this is so, and you claim "it's not physically possible" -- sorry but you're wrong on this one. Making out individual tail codes is and was an everyday thing for real pilots. In this game you'd be delusional to pretend you can do it outside of close formation.
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Your "REAL LIFE" example is demonstrably false. It is actually physically impossible. The resolution of the human eye just isn't anywhere near that good.
But don't let science stand in the way of a good story proving your point.
What science is that? All you did was present a story (not even a good one lol). Science details please . . . . .waiting lol
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What science is that? All you did was present a story (not even a good one lol). Science details please . . . . .waiting lol
LOL...troll. :lol
I was gonna post a similar response to Toad's b.s. but...I thought I would leave it to someone else. I've been in the cockpit (as a guest) in military aircraft...cargo planes, trainers and helicopter...and I've been a frequent passenger in commercial aircraft and I always book a window seat...not once have I seen or heard a pilot say that he could readily identify another aircraft at 2 miles with his bare eyes, let alone count the windows on a passenger jet. Nor have I been able to look down on a highway from 20,000+ feet up and see anything more than different colored dots moving along the highways...or see a lot of detail on another aircraft more than a mile away. Yes the air at 4 miles up is very clear but if the sun is shining the clear air makes reflections worse...and glare prevents you from seeing as clearly as you would think...it's a good time to be wearing polarized sunglasses.
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Dawger, a lot of real life pilots actually fly AH. A lot of folks that have an interest, passion, fascination with all aspects aviation, and along with that many hundreds, if not thousands of years of accumulated first hand experience.
Many even combat fighter pilots.
They all state, with first hand evidence, that this is so, and you claim "it's not physically possible" -- sorry but you're wrong on this one. Making out individual tail codes is and was an everyday thing for real pilots. In this game you'd be delusional to pretend you can do it outside of close formation.
1. I am a real life pilot with right around 10,000 hours. Just yesterday I flew from Monterey, Ca back home to Houston at 39,000 feet. I have some experience with the real life example Toad presented including out over the North Atlantic. My real world experience tells me it is BS. For the record my last FAA First Class physical my eyesight tested at 20/15 distance and 20/10 near.
2. I have done a ton of research on this particular subject including gathering the opinion of real world fighter pilots both current and former. I have used folks that were very familiar with WWII aircraft and folks that weren't in the course of testing the ability to differentiate aircraft silhouettes at specific scale ranges (scale since I don't have access to life size versions of WWII aircraft unfortunately). I have tested the visibility of tail markings from the largest aircraft in WWII. I have tested the identification range of modern aircraft over known distances using people that were familiar and those who were not. I have reached some pretty good conclusions that I find match the information I have gotten from reliable sources. I was lucky enough to discover some of the distance estimation rules of thumb used by current military pilots and they correspond to what I have found to be true. An example is the engine intake on the F15 used by USAF pilots to estimate distance. There are others. If you look you can find information on the internet regarding these formation flying thumb rules. An example is when you can read the NAVY (or MARINES) on the fuselage of the T34C you are three planes lengths away approximately. Knowing the size of those letters and the length of the aircraft gives one a good idea of the visual acuity of the average military pilot.
3. There is known science regarding human visual acuity. It is easily accessible on the internet. 20/20 vision is a measurement of resolution.That resolution is 1/60 of a degree. Any object that subtends less than that will not be distinct. A 12 inch diameter aircraft window at 12,172 feet does not subtend 1/60 of a degree. In order to do that it would need to be 42 inches in diameter. It simply would not be visible. Even a person with 20/10 distant vision could not resolve 12 inch diameter windows at 2 nautical miles. It is much more likely the brain painted the windows in because they are expected to be there. Your brain does stuff like that.
So the issue is why people keep insisting on using obviously false anecdotal evidence?
Mostly fear of change. The current icon system is demonstrably inaccurate. It does not account for two of the most important components of visual identification, size and aspect angle. The point of my research and others who helped was to present ideas for modification of the icon system so that it would more closely resemble real life while recognizing the limitations of the computer monitor. The research I and others engaged in indicated that the computer monitor did a great job at long distance because airplanes far away in real life are dots. At extremely close range the computer did a very good job. It was the middle ranges from about 2000 feet out to the distance a particular model becomes a color smudge in real life that the computer needs help. The idea was to propose an icon system that accounted for aircraft size and aspect at these middle ranges and did not present more information than would be available in reality while also accounting for the shortcoming of the video system at those middle ranges. We came up with some very good ideas but there is very little interest in the WWII MMOG community in a better icon system so there is very little interest on the part of the game developer (understandably so).
My interest is in an icon system that accounts for the limitations of the computer while preserving as much of the uncertainty of aerial combat that exists in reality, especially in the WWII age. I have given up all hope of this ever being done because it is actively discouraged by the community.
NOTE: I cannot even begin to count the number of times I have typed this exact same information or something very similar over the past 13 years. I am pretty sure this makes me fit Einstein's definition of insanity very closely.
:airplane:
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Yah, Dawger, you're right.
I only have about 20k+ flight hours and I only specifically did that experiment years ago to counter clueless guys like you on this very BBS. I only had the other pilot verify that he could see the same detail that I could see. But I appreciate that you are unable to accept this and feel highly qualified to tell me what two guys actually doing the experiment saw. (Oh..and I defer to Gyrene's vast experience in the air too...after all, he actually sat in the cockpit!)
Here's another REAL LIFE example...call BS on this one if you like too. This one is from the Navy's T-38 Prep Course. Note that you can see DETAIL on the pilot's helmet from about 100 yards. You can clearly read ~8" high numbers from about 165 yards. Try that in AH.
Distance behind Lead can be estimated by noting the amount of detail on Lead's aircraft.
Clearly reading the side number approximates 500 feet; the ability to discern detail on the lead
pilot's helmet will indicate range inside of 300 feet.
http://www.tpub.com/content/aviation2/P-367/P-3670083.htm
Once again, the visual cues available in AH (outside of zoom) are seriously lacking in AH when compared to real life. Sorry you can't accept the truth.
Here's another old thread about visual cues with examples and answers taken from a UPT T-38 Formation Flying Techniques guide.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,25522.15.html
See if you can answer these two questions or read the thread and find the answers:
Question 1: You are flying #2 in "Trail" position (60 degree cone aft) at what distance are the numbers on the vertical stablizer "easily visible but not readable"?
All answer distances are in FEET.
A. 250'
B. 500'
C. 750'
D. 1000'
E. 1250'
Question 2: Still flying as #2 in Trail, at what distance do the "burner cans" (exhaust nozzles) assume a "black figure 8" shape rather than just a black blob or oval? All answer distances are in FEET.
A. 250'
B. 500'
C. 750'
D. 1000'
E. 1250'
Now these are for pilots with 20/20 vision.
The tail numbers are 10" numbers.
(http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/t-38/images/T-38Talon_6.jpg)
An view of the burner cans:
(http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/t-38-taxi-s.jpg)
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Yah, Dawger, you're right.
I only have about 20k+ flight hours and I only specifically did that experiment years ago to counter clueless guys like you on this very BBS. I only had the other pilot verify that he could see the same detail that I could see. But I appreciate that you are unable to accept this and feel highly qualified to tell me what two guys actually doing the experiment saw. (Oh..and I defer to Gyrene's vast experience in the air too...after all, he actually sat in the cockpit!)
Here's another REAL LIFE example...call BS on this one if you like too. This one is from the Navy's T-38 Prep Course. Note that you can see DETAIL on the pilot's helmet from about 100 yards. You can clearly read ~8" high numbers from about 165 yards. Try that in AH.
http://www.tpub.com/content/aviation2/P-367/P-3670083.htm
Once again, the visual cues available in AH (outside of zoom) are seriously lacking in AH when compared to real life. Sorry you can't accept the truth.
Here's another old thread about visual cues with examples and answers taken from a UPT T-38 Formation Flying Techniques guide.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,25522.15.html
See if you can answer these two questions or read the thread and find the answers:
Question 1: You are flying #2 in "Trail" position (60 degree cone aft) at what distance are the numbers on the vertical stablizer "easily visible but not readable"?
All answer distances are in FEET.
A. 250'
B. 500'
C. 750'
D. 1000'
E. 1250'
Question 2: Still flying as #2 in Trail, at what distance do the "burner cans" (exhaust nozzles) assume a "black figure 8" shape rather than just a black blob or oval? All answer distances are in FEET.
A. 250'
B. 500'
C. 750'
D. 1000'
E. 1250'
Now these are for pilots with 20/20 vision.
The tail numbers are 10" numbers.
(http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/t-38/images/T-38Talon_6.jpg)
An view of the burner cans:
(http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/t-38-taxi-s.jpg)
I notice you went from clearly seeing 12 inch diameter windows at 12,172 feet to 10 inch letters at 1250 feet.
According to the math 20/20 vision would allow you to see the black letters against the white background at about 1432 feet (They would appear as a dark gray rectangle at this distance) so i would assume 1250 would be the correct answer. This is the same math that says you can't see 12 inch diameter windows at 2 nautical miles.
A more exact answer is only achievable with precise measurement of the width of the numbers and the white space between them as this is determinative in vision resolution. Somewhat less than 1432 feet is the best answer I can give without that information.
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Also, I am well aware of the inability of the computer to resolve text and graphics painted on aircraft. I do not posit that no icons is realistic in all respects. If you carefully read my post you would see I am interested in a new icon system that accounts for the limitations of the computer while preserving the uncertainty of the real world.
The real world examples you posted are an excellent source to develop such a thing.
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I think most of you MA pilots can't nutt up to the AvA icon settings... imagine, the nerve of having to ID a unknown bogey...
:lol
I don't know why some of you try to turn this into a testosterone competition. Perhaps you're unsure of your logic?
Try to remain civil and rational. Bluster and sarcasm will NEVER convince me.
Thanks! :salute
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Toad, you could have 50k hours as an astronaut, it won't make it possible to count the windows on a passenger jet from a 5, 6 or 7 o'clock position when trailing 12,000+ feet behind and 2,000 feet lower...and that is what I call b.s. At best, you may have been able to discern a few aft windows as tiny dark dots on the fuselage if it was all white or had a light colored stripe painted horizontally along the fuselage where the windows are...but then you could have been looking at identity markings.
Then you come back with those "tests"...using much shorter distances for examples of what can be seen...next thing you're going to tell me is you can see a pilot flipping you the finger from 2 miles, just like you can clearly tell the difference between a volkswagen beetle and a dodge caravan from 4 miles up. And you need to get the sizes of the numbers on the tails correct, are they 8 inches or 12 inches?
You could see the little American flag on US carriers' tails out past a mile. It's not as big as a Spit roundel.
And just for the record, you obviously don't know the actual size or location of U.S. Navy ship flags...the flag does not fly from the stern, it's on the super structure and the standard is longer than the roundel on a Spitfire.
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I notice you went from clearly seeing 12 inch diameter windows at 12,172 feet to 10 inch letters at 1250 feet.
No, I went from seeing windows to clearly reading numbers. I am not surprised you don't understand the difference.
The answers to both questions is the same; 1000 feet. No go try to read the numbers on the P-51 tail in AH at 1000 feet or 300 yards or so. If you can see them at all.
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First of all, I realize this thread is not about AvA. I also realize that no-icons isn't realistic, yet neither is glowing red letters.
In the AvA, enemy icons are currently turned off and friendly icons are set at 2000.
This seems to be provide the ability of being able to see who the friendlies are (simulation of being able to see specific tail markings/ identifiers.)
There is no need to identify specific enemy aircraft. Only that they are enemy, which you can do, as no icon=enemy
This seems to be a good balance of creating a more immersive, realistic (appearing) environment by adding some uncertainty at longer ranges etc.
I would not advocate this set-up for anything beyond AvA, but it is quite fun in there.
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Once again, the visual cues available in AH (outside of zoom) are seriously lacking in AH when compared to real life.
Toad, this is the only thing you have said that nobody is arguing about...and if you had taken the time to read through the responses you would have seen that everyone acknowledges that. HiTech did post somewhere on the forum about what the zoom fuction was meant to do...something to the effect of making up for a lack of visual acuity in standard view.
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And just for the record, you obviously don't know the actual size or location of U.S. Navy ship flags...the flag does not fly from the stern, it's on the super structure and the standard is longer than the roundel on a Spitfire.
Thanks for the perfect example of cluelessness.
The American flag refrenced in the example is the one required to be on every international "flag carrier" aircraft. "Flag carriers" display the state flag of the country of their registry.
There's no need to argue over this. Those in doubt can easily see the truth for themselves at any airshow featureing WW2 planes. The airshow season is pretty much upon us.
When I get back tonight, I'll post an easy way to show yourself just how much detail the naked eye can see at distance and then you can relate it to what you see in AH.
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HiTech did post somewhere on the forum about what the zoom fuction was meant to do...something to the effect of making up for a lack of visual acuity in standard view.
Yeah, with a near total loss of peripheral vision at the zoom that begins to equate to Mark I eyeball.
He's also coverd the icon issue. You can change the color to blend in to the point of invisibility. You can change the size to a tiny 12 font. You can eliminate icons on your computer. You can have only friendly icons on your computer. You can do lots of things to icons on your computer.
The one thing you can't do on your computer? You can't get anywhere near close to real life visual cues with normal peripheral vision. Period.
Since visual cues (aspect, closure, etc.) are the key to any guns acm....HT came up with a great compromise.
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First of all, I realize this thread is not about AvA. I also realize that no-icons isn't realistic, yet neither is glowing red letters.
Options -> preferences -> GUI -> select 'Enemy' on the top drop down list -> use RGB sliders to adjust color
or
use ALT plus I keys to toggle icon mode. There are 'Friendly only icons' and 'Icons off' modes for immersion fans like you.
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Thanks for the perfect example of cluelessness.
The American flag refrenced in the example is the one required to be on every international "flag carrier" aircraft. "Flag carriers" display the state flag of the country of their registry.
International flag carrier? I hope you mean "flag ship"...U.S. Navy carriers do not fly the national flag on the stern, flag ship or not...it is on the starboard side of the superstructure.
Yeah, with a near total loss of peripheral vision at the zoom that begins to equate to Mark I eyeball.
The one thing you can't do on your computer? You can't get anywhere near close to real life visual cues with normal peripheral vision. Period.
Since visual cues (aspect, closure, etc.) are the key to any guns acm....HT came up with a great compromise.
Very true, but I can see more detail at distances that are important than you want to believe...18,000 feet is not important...3000 is...and I use zoom to varying degrees...
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International flag carrier? I hope you mean "flag ship"...U.S. Navy carriers do not fly the national flag on the stern, flag ship or not...it is on the starboard side of the superstructure.
international "flag carrier" aircraft
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You could see the little American flag on US carriers' tails out past a mile. It's not as big as a Spit roundel.
Didn't realize that translated to airplanes...my mistake.
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use ALT plus I keys to toggle icon mode. There are 'Friendly only icons' and 'Icons off' modes for immersion fans like you.
Two quick points:
- Jimson made it plain he doesn't think no-icons is for the MA. You needn't worry that he's trying to force something on you.
- Turning icons off only for yourself doesn't really address the immersion issue. Unless your opponent also is faced with the same handicap, you've simply unbalanced the competition in his favor.
- oldman
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There is no need to identify specific enemy aircraft. Only that they are enemy, which you can do, as no icon=enemy
This seems to be a good balance of creating a more immersive, realistic (appearing) environment by adding some uncertainty at longer ranges etc.
if you can not identify the enemy aircraft, specifically, and think there is no need to.. then I guess you are not interested in fighting or knowing which way to fight your unidentified enemy aircraft.......... you are only interested in either "picking the enemy off" without fear of a fight or you are running from a potential fight.......
that is how I decipher your:
There is no need to identify specific enemy aircraft.
true immersion feeling indeed :aok
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- Turning icons off only for yourself doesn't really address the immersion issue. Unless your opponent also is faced with the same handicap, you've simply unbalanced the competition in his favor.
But that's what they're doing. They're not competitive under normal settings. Then they want change the settings because they believe it will benefit them more than others. Cherry pickers dream...
We can talk in about 6 months to a year. We'll see if you'll still have setups with no icons in AvA. My bet is you won't, unless you want to have 4 guys max at peak times.
I think HTC (when it comes to icons) achieved the best compromise between gameplay, immersion, realism and computer/display technology.
Those who want considerable change must have an agenda of some kind, or they didn't put much thoughts into that one.
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For all the posts about 8" and 12" letters, tails, weenies, or flags, the fact still remains that without the icons, there is no way to discern between a rook P51, a Bish P51, and a Knight P51 (except that the rook P51 will be diving in from 47,000 feet and losing it's ceramic heat shields along the way :D )
The reason AvA works is you all leave a particular location and head to enemy territory where you will encounter ENEMY. Then you can distinguish friendly from foe in the ensuing battle because you are respectively flying planes from one country or another. As I understand it a US P51 does not encounter or engage a "German" P51. You either fly Allied Aircraft or Axis Aircraft and you shoot down whichever one your aren't. :salute
I would dare say (admittedly without any scientific proof or Rasmusen Polling) "no icons" would interest fewer players than "full icons". And, removing said icons would be more detrimental to the player base than leaving them. However, that having been said, if your 'cup-of-tea' is to play without icons than you already have that option in the AvA arena. If you are only concerned with those who share a like mind for the "no icons" and are not looking to change the player base (as I read in one post above), then the solution is right in front of you. Go to the AvA and all those who WANT to play without ICONS can do so in that arena. If in fact, that arena never gets more than a few persons, then that should answer your original post.... people are not 'generally' interested in flying with "no icons". If that arena does fill up with like minded players, then you also have an answer and have the solution you were asking for.
So, the point of this post is simply that what you want is already there! Just go with it. If you don't get interest, then there isn't much interest in the original post and it would be wrong to force the vast majority of players to 'have to play' (your way) with no icons.
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Lawman, it's no enemy icons...not no icons period. No big deal, other people have made the same mistake in reading...just making sure you understand the context.
And with no enemy icons in the MAs it would not matter rook, bish, knits...if it doesn't have a green identifier on it, try to shoot it down. At least that's what the OP proposed initially have happen on at least 1 server, not including the AvA.
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No, I went from seeing windows to clearly reading numbers. I am not surprised you don't understand the difference.
The answers to both questions is the same; 1000 feet. No go try to read the numbers on the P-51 tail in AH at 1000 feet or 300 yards or so. If you can see them at all.
Question 1: You are flying #2 in "Trail" position (60 degree cone aft) at what distance are the numbers on the vertical stablizer "easily visible but not readable"?
All answer distances are in FEET.
A. 250'
B. 500'
C. 750'
D. 1000'
E. 1250'
I think maybe you should read what you post clearly before replying about it.
The math indicates 10 inch numbers would be visible but not readable at 1432 feet. The distance they are readable would be considerably shorter. The math also indicates 12 inch windows would not be visibly discernible at 12,152 feet from any clock position.
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if you can not identify the enemy aircraft, specifically, and think there is no need to.. then I guess you are not interested in fighting or knowing which way to fight your unidentified enemy aircraft.......... you are only interested in either "picking the enemy off" without fear of a fight or you are running from a potential fight.......
that is how I decipher your:
true immersion feeling indeed :aok
Sorry, let me clarify, I didn't mean the enemy aircraft type. only the specific aircraft.
In the AvA there are usually only a couple of different types, and so far I have been able to discern that fairly well.
But that's what they're doing. They're not competitive under normal settings. Then they want change the settings because they believe it will benefit them more than others. Cherry pickers dream...
You are wrong, no matter how many times you infer this. It's not about advantage, I just happen to think it is fun and more immersive.
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According to the math ....This is the same math that says you can't see 12 inch diameter windows at 2 nautical miles.
This is where you're wrong.
You're trying to base what a human eye can see on mathematics. It may be nice for cameras with glass-based optics, or digital zooms, or a number of other things, but it's not the same as with human eyesight, which is analog.
The math and science is all academic when it boils down to the simple fact that the majority of folks in the know have already answered your question.
P.S. Gyrene has no clue what he's talking about.
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In the AvA there are usually only a couple of different types, and so far I have been able to discern that fairly well.
At what distance?
Make a simple test. Take note at what distance you can actually recognize the type of the aircraft (ie spit or 109). Yeah, less than 1k.
In real life, even with my less than perfect vision, I can see the type at 6,000 to 8,000 ft at least, which is more than twice of distance in AH.
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P.S. Gyrene has no clue what he's talking about.
I'm guessing you base your authoritative narration on time spent playing AW and AH, or some such nonsense? All that tells me is you don't get out of the house enough to actually observe the real world.
The only thing you have been absolutely correct on in regards to me is the advice to turn tracers off...it's a little better in that I don't rely on the "walking the rounds in" but, by using the default gun sights...it's not as easy to judge proper firing angle outside of 300yds.
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Those who want considerable change must have an agenda of some kind, or they didn't put much thoughts into that one.
In all fairness, I had this in mind for some time with considerable thought on the change on dynamics of a fight, without the knowledge of this request ever being made on the BBS before this. Yes, the agenda was to try it in special events at least but I wanted to discuss it. I don't think that is so bad is it?
Two quick points:
- Turning icons off only for yourself doesn't really address the immersion issue. Unless your opponent also is faced with the same handicap, you've simply unbalanced the competition in his favor.
- oldman
This thread was not about personal choice of icons nor abour forcing an idea onto people here. Just a discussion and I think Oldmans quote is perfect.
At least it is not a B-29 request or discussion.... :aok
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At what distance?
Make a simple test. Take note at what distance you can actually recognize the type of the aircraft (ie spit or 109). Yeah, less than 1k.
In real life, even with my less than perfect vision, I can see the type at 6,000 to 8,000 ft at least, which is more than twice of distance in AH.
I certainly wouldn't dispute that. For me personally, the fun and excitement the set-up adds (once again, for me personally) outweighs having to get much closer in range to make the ID than one would in real life.
For me it's a feel thing, I can realize that in reality, it is not more realistic than an icon on setting, it just feels that way. (to me)
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The issue with it in the MA is that you wouldn't be able to ID a plane enemy or friendly with certainty until it is very close.
Sure you can.... one side gets the brewster.... one the c47 and the other side gets jeeps. :D
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In all fairness, I had this in mind for some time with considerable thought on the change on dynamics of a fight, without the knowledge of this request ever being made on the BBS before this. Yes, the agenda was to try it in special events at least but I wanted to discuss it. I don't think that is so bad is it?
I wasn't talking about you. You should have figured that one out. You still go in my black book though for starting that thread.
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I wasn't talking about you. You should have figured that one out. You still go in my black book though for starting that thread.
Oh I see, how can I repay you then? Did you want to shoot me up in the DA then? :D
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But that's what they're doing. They're not competitive under normal settings. Then they want change the settings because they believe it will benefit them more than others. Cherry pickers dream...
You know this because you have flown against Jimson and Gyrene and me and others who enjoy the no icons settings, and have found us not competitive? Or do you just surmise that there must be some ulterior and nefarious motive to support such a change?
You're absolutely correct, the AvA is a great testing arena for this and we'll see how it works out in the long run. Perhaps we'll even see you in there.
- oldman
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Make a simple test. Take note at what distance you can actually recognize the type of the aircraft (ie spit or 109). Yeah, less than 1k.
Just out of curiosity, what type of settings are you running? I can easily differentiate between Spitfires and 109's past 3k-4k.
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Without maximum zoom angle while holding your zoomed view on a fixed target? I cry foul.
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Without maximum zoom angle while holding your zoomed view on a fixed target? I cry foul.
I think Motherland is using a little better settings than I am and he is much better versed in plane identification than me but using about 3/4 zoom I can clearly determine a plane type between 2k and 3k yards.
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Try doing it without zoom.
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Try doing it without zoom.
Do I look that dumb?.. :confused: ...don't answer that. :lol
Seriously Krusty, think of standard view as not being focused on anything in general, leaned back just taking in the overall view...then toggling zoom would be the act of focusing on a distant object and the more zoom you use, the more you're straining your eyes to make out details...something of that nature. Not sure if you noticed but the zoom function in the airplanes is a little different than zoom in tanks and bomb sights...it's doesn't magnify an object like bombsights and tank gunsights.
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...then toggling zoom would be the act of focusing on a distant object and the more zoom you use, the more you're straining your eyes to make out details...something of that nature. Not sure if you noticed but the zoom function in the airplanes is a little different than zoom in tanks and bomb sights...it's doesn't magnify an object like bombsights and tank gunsights.
Pretend as much as you like, but focusing on the distant object is nothing like zooming in. Your biggest reason for no icons is immersion. How's the zoom fitting into that?
Lets face it.
Human field of view is about 60 degrees (+ extra 40 or so for peripheral vision) horizontal and well over 100 vertical.
What do you get at max zoom?
Does Zoom give you an extra resolution or is it the same as with no zoom? Resolution of human sight is equivalent of about 300-400 megapixels. How many pixel you get out of all your screen?
How about dynamic range?
You fail on realism and immersion differs from player to player. Besides, you got what you want in AvA, knock yourself out...
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Bighorn...if I had as much knowledge as you...I wouldn't post anything to do with reality...go back to pretending you're an ace pilot.
First and foremost...I don't use full zoom...I personaly use only as much as I need to get a positive friend or foe id on an aircraft beyond the friendly icon range, that equates to about 1/2 which leaves a good deal of peripheral vision...the only other time I use any zoom is with the gunsight and that never goes over 3/4.
Secondly, the number of rendered pixels is dependent on the video settings of the game...and is limited to the rendering limits of the graphics engine...and using the zoom function in a plane does obviously give better resolution since it is magnifying the object to some degree...not as much as a bombsight, tank gunsight or ship gunsight.
I'm betting your next comment will be along the lines of "I've been playing AH since blah blah blah"...which only puts you in the category of needs to get out of the house more, not scientific aerospace doctor of human physiology expert and flight sim programmer.
Fact is we can sit here all month and beat this subject like a bad apple...in the end it all boils down to most are happy with all arcade mode and some want whatever little more they can get regardless of others opinions.
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Aaaaand we come full circle to the immature name-calling, the elitist "I'm better than you all" and the false claims that icons represent arcade gameplay.
Yes, the circle is complete... Every post the same few folks devolve it around and around.
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Aaaaand we come full circle to the immature name-calling, the elitist "I'm better than you all" and the false claims that icons represent arcade gameplay.
Yes, the circle is complete... Every post the same few folks devolve it around and around.
No, I will stoop to "My ideas are better than yours." :neener:
Circle can't be complete without that. :D
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...go back to pretending you're an ace pilot.
When I play AH I play a game. You're the one who needs to turn off icons in order to feel more "real", so who's really pretending here?
good deal of peripheral vision...
With single monitor there's no peripheral vision in AH, period. Especially not if you zoom in.
Secondly, the number of rendered pixels is dependent on the video settings of the game...and is limited to the rendering limits of the graphics engine...and using the zoom function in a plane does obviously give better resolution since it is magnifying the object to some degree...not as much as a bombsight, tank gunsight or ship gunsight.
Lets say you got really good dual/triple monitor set, each with 2560 x 1600 resolution and graphic card capable to run all three at max.
That's roughly 12MP vs 300MP in favor of human eye (for comparison TripleHead2Go gives you about 5MP max).
Why would you further cripple your virtual reality with no icons?
I'm betting
Don't, you'd lose big time.
in the end it all boils down to most are happy with all arcade mode and some want whatever little more they can get regardless of others opinions.
Again, who's pretending to be a WWII pilot?
One way or another, if you don't care about opinion of others, don't try to justify yours.
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Actually bighorn, my time spent playing flight sims hasn't turned me into an expert in human physiology...unlike yourself. If there is no "peripheral vision" in AH, then why would HTC bother with having a customizable field of view setting?
Awww what the hell...I can tell you have never given it more than 5 minutes with the same level of objectivity that you give the standard settings...so until you do...just stay in your world where you are an expert.
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Gyrene, HTC gives you peripheral vision with the unzoomed view angle. By zooming in at any level, you totally remove this.
The zoom in AH does NOT replicate binocular vision, it's a supplimental view mode to help simulate what you normally would see in "unzoomed mode" -- you'd probably see all the details in max zoom without ever having to "zoom in" in the first place.
Adding an arbitrary and clunky step of maxing out a zoom to make out details at distances is forced difficulty, and still does not simulate what the eyes SEES, just some of the details it might pick out. It's not the same. It certainly isn't instantaneous like vision.
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Gyrene, HTC gives you peripheral vision with the unzoomed view angle. By zooming in at any level, you totally remove this.
I've noticed the field of view narrows incrementally as zoom level is increased...leaving zoom engaged but pulling back all the way increases the FOV to a little less than default.
The zoom in AH does NOT replicate binocular vision, it's a supplimental view mode to help simulate what you normally would see in "unzoomed mode" -- you'd probably see all the details in max zoom without ever having to "zoom in" in the first place.
Yes I agree Krusty. At a range of 3000 yards in real life you would see a lot more detail than AH renders even in zoom mode...but not at the level some have tried to make out.
Adding an arbitrary and clunky step of maxing out a zoom to make out details at distances is forced difficulty, and still does not simulate what the eyes SEES, just some of the details it might pick out. It's not the same. It certainly isn't instantaneous like vision.
Again, agreed.
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Actually bighorn, my time spent playing flight sims hasn't turned me into an expert in human physiology...unlike yourself.
another ad hominem argument... not necessary really...
If there is no "peripheral vision" in AH, then why would HTC bother with having a customizable field of view setting?
Definitely not to simulate peripheral vision, but to make up for different monitor sizes/resolutions, multiple monitor setups, etc.
If peripheral vision would be simulated, edges would be blurred out. Since we hardly have anything near the human field of view, there' s no point in that.
Awww what the hell...I can tell you have never given it more than 5 minutes with the same level of objectivity that you give the standard settings...so until you do...just stay in your world where you are an expert.
No, that's you. You're dead set on "no icons" better/more real/whatever.
Do you really think if no icons would be so much better that we'd have them? Hell, I'm sure HiTech would get rid of 'em pretty soon.
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I've been very happy with icon size 10, forest green for enemy and sky blue for friendly. Nice compromise. I like Dawger's approach of figuring out exactly what cues are missing from the icons and trying to introduce them. Perhaps a pale, translucent circle around a con, with a dot indicating the heading and a thin grayscale border indicating closing rate. It seems clear the icons are most useful at medium ranges and should probably vanish or become simplified at longer and shorter ranges.
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Since we've strayed, I'll repeat my position on no icons.
No icons is an artificial difficulty level. I have no problem with people that feel some need to artificially increase the difficulty level. They have many options on their own computer to do that. They can also play in places like the AvA where this setup is featured from time to time.
Where I do have a problem with no icons is with the "no icons is more realistic" baloney. It isn't. It's not the problem of AH, it's the problem of available technology. You simply can't get realistic visual cues from the computers and monitors we are all using.
Secondly, I have a problem with the HT should set up all the arenas with no icons because I'm sure once people play my way they'll learn to love it proponents. You have places to play that feature no icons. No need to force your idea of perfection on the rest of the player base.
Lastly a note on peripheral vision; I'll quote something I posted in the previous link on visual cues:
Toad:
Test Questions on visual "Realism"
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2001, 05:19:00 PM » Quote
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Daff, there's no doubt FOV is important.
In fact, isn't the "zoom" in AH a variable FOV? At least that's what I thought we were doing. When we zoom in, we are narrowing the FOV, gaining detail and sizing more accurately.
I'm quite sure you could go to 1000' in AH and zoom in enough to distinguish numbers as numbers (corresponding to the T-38 example). But you'd give up almost all of a human's normal peripheral vision in doing that.
It would be quite interesting to see at what FOV that occurs. There's some good data on the web about human FOV and Peripheral vision.
Peripheral is REAL important in a game like this. Here's a clip of why I think so:
"The peripheral retinal system is sometimes called the "where" retina. It is involved with the subconscious control of human navigation. It is an old visual system, having evolved long before central visual processing. The evolution of the retina is played out as you go from the extreme edge of the retina (the oldest system in evolution) to the retinal "center", the fovea, where central processing occurs.
The extreme far edges of the retina are purely reflexive. When an object moves on the far retinal edge an immediate reflex swings the eyes in a direction which aligns the moving object with the fovea. Closer in, the peripheral retinal tissue can "see" movement, but there is no object recognition. When movement stops, the object becomes invisible. Closer in still, the medial peripheral retina monitors optical flow, the velocity of objects moving across the retinal surface. It is this optical flow that is the basis for the subconscious human navigation system, the "where is it" system."
Our problem is when we alter the FOV in the various games, we lose most of the peripheral vision.
I really don't think there's going to be a good solution until we either get half dome projection monitors or really, REALLY good VR goggles.
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Now, who's right about visual cues and detail?
First, I doubt anyone disagrees that visual cues are the basis for all guns ACM. Without them, there can be no ACM.
So, how do YOU decide who's right?
Real simple. Go down to you local airport and LOOK at airplanes in the air. You can find the length of any runway on the internet. If you park down at the end of a 5000 foot runway and watch planes making their turn to final at the other end; you can be assured you are seeing aircraft at a little over a mile away. I think you'll be surprised at how much detail you can see even on a little Cessna 172. I think you will find aspect, closure, etc., etc., will be far, far better than AH.
Even better, go to an airshow featuring WW2 planes. These will usually be done in accurate recreations of paint job and insignia. They also tend to take place at larger airports. These airports will usually have Runway Distance Markers that show distance from the marker to the end of the runway in thousands of feet.
They look like this, which shows 3000 feet to the end of the runway.
(http://www.biasairfield.com/archive/303/drawing_RDML.jpg)
So get to the show early and park your carcass abeam an RDM near midfield. Then watch the aircraft as they turn in on the runway enterline. You'll have a fairly accurate idea of a known distance and you can observe the detail or lack of same on actual WW2 aircraft with accurate markings.
Then you'll know who to believe.
I conducted the aforementioned experiment out over the North Atlantic in the upper 30ks. I KNOW what I saw. I KNOW what the other pilot(s) saw; I conducted this experiment more than once. My specific goal was to see just when things were observable. It was easy to start out 4-5 miles back and off to one side, add a couple of percent of power and slowly creep in on the guy ahead and above. I stand by my comments.
Take yourself down to an airport and see for yourself.
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Now, who's right about visual cues and detail?
First, I doubt anyone disagrees that visual cues are the basis for all guns ACM. Without them, there can be no ACM.
So, how do YOU decide who's right?
Real simple. Go down to you local airport and LOOK at airplanes in the air. You can find the length of any runway on the internet. If you park down at the end of a 5000 foot runway and watch planes making their turn to final at the other end; you can be assured you are seeing aircraft at a little over a mile away. I think you'll be surprised at how much detail you can see even on a little Cessna 172. I think you will find aspect, closure, etc., etc., will be far, far better than AH.
Even better, go to an airshow featuring WW2 planes. These will usually be done in accurate recreations of paint job and insignia. They also tend to take place at larger airports. These airports will usually have Runway Distance Markers that show distance from the marker to the end of the runway in thousands of feet.
They look like this, which shows 3000 feet to the end of the runway.
(http://www.biasairfield.com/archive/303/drawing_RDML.jpg)
So get to the show early and park your carcass abeam an RDM near midfield. Then watch the aircraft as they turn in on the runway enterline. You'll have a fairly accurate idea of a known distance and you can observe the detail or lack of same on actual WW2 aircraft with accurate markings.
Then you'll know who to believe.
I conducted the aforementioned experiment out over the North Atlantic in the upper 30ks. I KNOW what I saw. I KNOW what the other pilot(s) saw; I conducted this experiment more than once. My specific goal was to see just when things were observable. It was easy to start out 4-5 miles back and off to one side, add a couple of percent of power and slowly creep in on the guy ahead and above. I stand by my comments.
Take yourself down to an airport and see for yourself.
So you are going to just ignore the fact that you posted proof of the mathematical equation of human visual acuity I posted inadvertently and continue to insist that humans can somehow defy the math?
Or do you admit your original premise of 12 inch diameter windows visible at 12,152 feet was not true since 10 inch letter are visible but not readable at 1250 feet?
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Yes.
I'm going to go with repeated and witnessed actual personal experience.
You might try it sometime.
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Or do you admit your original premise of 12 inch diameter windows visible at 12,152 feet was not true since 10 inch letter are visible but not readable at 1250 feet?
BTW, you might see if you can figure out how a 10 inch letter or number that might be 2 inches wide is different from a 10" x 12" solid piece of plexiglass set against a white painted aluminum skin.
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This thread needs to die.
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So you are going to just ignore the fact that you posted proof of the mathematical equation of human visual acuity I posted inadvertently and continue to insist that humans can somehow defy the math?
Or do you admit your original premise of 12 inch diameter windows visible at 12,152 feet was not true since 10 inch letter are visible but not readable at 1250 feet?
hey dawger,
come into the AVA, we got a blast there last night :rock
<S> to jimson and crew, good Fun guys!
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BTW, you might see if you can figure out how a 10 inch letter or number that might be 2 inches wide is different from a 10" x 12" solid piece of plexiglass set against a white painted aluminum skin.
There is established science that the human eye resolution is 1/60 of a degree. You posted an Air Force reference that confirms this to be so in everyday practice in the visibility but not readability of a 10 inch by 50 inch block of letters and you still insist that there is no possibility you were mistaken?
I do not doubt that you believe you saw windows at 2 miles but where is your confirmation they were actually there and not just put there by a brain that expects them there? I have seen this phenomenon occur man times to myself and others with crossing traffic. We play a game with crossing traffic. Maybe you should try it. Name the airline and aircraft model of approaching crossing traffic at 10, 5 and 1 mile. It is amazing the number of times the initial guess is completely wrong. And it is also amazing that those windows you think are there turn out to be imaginary when a freighter goes whipping past with nary a window in sight.
This is why this is such a futile argument. An individual can post something that disproves his own assertion and still claim the anecdote to have been correct in the face of overwhelming empirical data.
The USAF says (In a reference posted by Toad) 10 inch high letters, black on a white background, are visible but not readable at 1250 feet. Toad asserts clear 12 inch circles on any background are clearly discernible at ten times that distance.
It is not believable on its face and there are established scientific standards that make the claim to be able to see passenger windows at 2 miles totally ridiculous.
Yet Toad continues to insist that he saw them. I believe he did see them. And the little imaginary green men sitting in the seats.
I knew this was pointless when I started but to have a guy disprove his own anecdote and still hold to its veracity is something new so at least I got the humor out of seeing that happen.
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Let me sum up the thread for you.
Seasoned players (Toad, Bighorn, etc) with years of experience in the game are making good points and back them up with data.
Nubes, "Mommy, they won't agree with me!!!" :cry
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hey dawger,
come into the AVA, we got a blast there last night :rock
<S> to jimson and crew, good Fun guys!
Had a lot of fun with Loose Duece in the arena.
Yeah they mostly kicked my tail, but I got a kill or two it was lotsa fun.
Salute LD and all others who played, hope to see you all again.
jimson
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You clearly don't understand the visible, not readable statement.
It doesn't say you can't see the numbers until 1250 feet (actually it says they are readable at 1000 feet but I understand your problem).
It says you can't read the numbers until 1000 feet. This is because a 3 looks a lot like an 8 until you get that close.
It never, ever says how far away you can see the black of the numbers against the white background. It doesn't say how far away you can see the USAF insignia. All it says it that basically, you can't tell a 3 from an 8 until about 1000 feet. You can keep trying to make it say more than that but it doesn't.
To the point, try that in AH. Use normal view and see how close you have to get to actually read the serial numbers on the art work. The old P-51 default skin had serial numbers under the horizontal stabilizer. See how close you have to get to read them.
Second. So, you play a game guessing what type/company an airliner is at 10 miles, 5 miles and 1 mile? Tell me, what does a bomber at 10 miles look like in AH? 5 miles? Again, you make my case for me. The game is seriously deficient in visual cues due to the limitations of the technology.
In that example you inadvertently touch upon a truth you have so far ignored. Have you ever heard the comment made by people out in the mountains that things look so close but are acutally far away? The clarity of the air has a lot do to with how far you can see. I submit that at 35k over the North Atlantic on a clear day you can see farther than you can in the Los Angeles basin at ground level.
You can natter on all you like but the fact is a person with good eyesight CAN distinguish the windows on a large Boeing or Airbus at 2 miles as verified by TCAS and corroborated by GPS/Position Reports. After you've actually tried that, get back to me.
Lastly, dear readers, again I'll say there's no reason to believe either Dawger or me. Just go on down to your local airport after you've confirmed its runway length. Sit at one end and watch the airplanes at the other end. Then go back and compare what you saw to what you see in AH. You will inescapably come to the conclusion that current PC technology cannot provide the viusal cues necessary for guns ACM. You will understand that all this "no icons" blather is an artificial difficulty level. Nothing wrong with that but the word "realistic" doesn't apply to "no icons".
As I said, if you like no icons, good for you. You can quickly set up your own computer to display that way or you can play the various arenas/scenarios that offer that option.
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Let me sum up the thread for you.
Seasoned players (Toad, Bighorn, etc) with years of experience in the game are making good points and back them up with data.
Nubes, "Mommy, they won't agree with me!!!" :cry
LMAO...if you say so mommy.
At least you're just voicing an opinion...Bighorn is simply clueless...and Toad is stuck somewhere in scientific conjecture...what all of you seem to conveniently miss is every time someone says, yes there are limitations that we all agree exist...it's a virtual world and it's been modeled as well as the graphics engine HTC uses and our personal computers can handle...there are simulator systems that are far more advanced but most of use can't afford them.
I'm willing to bet if we all used 42 inch monitors, there would be less discussion of "the human eye can blah blah blah" and more of "well I tried it and I just don't like it"...i
It's a hobby, not a life...and no matter how long you have been playing it, we're all just gamers living out illusions of glory in a fantasy world.
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...and Toad is stuck somewhere in scientific conjecture...
Actually, I'm stuck in real world actual experience with witnesses who saw the same things I did. The guy with the slide rule is Dawger. Hope that helps.
I'm willing to bet if we all used 42 inch monitors, there would be less discussion of "the human eye can blah blah blah" and more of "well I tried it and I just don't like it"...
Probably not. I've flown in some of the most expensive six axis motions simulators available as of 7 years ago and their multi-screen visuals were, for the most part no better than AH for detail. In some respects they were not as good. Maybe an Imax 3D dome would get us closer but they're still kinda expensive.
It's a hobby, not a life...and no matter how long you have been playing it, we're all just gamers living out illusions of glory in a fantasy world.
I've got no problems with "no icons" as an artificial difficulty level. What made me jump into this thread was the stupid "realism" claims; that's simply bogus. As I've said repeatedly, a trip to your local airport will quickly show anyone the truth about 'no icons realism'.
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I've got no problems with "no icons" as an artificial difficulty level. What made me jump into this thread was the stupid "realism" claims; that's simply bogus. As I've said repeatedly, a trip to your local airport will quickly show anyone the truth about 'no icons realism'.
Ok, now I understand...maybe the key words used should have been "realistically immersive" since that is all we're talking about...another level of immersion into the false reality of aerial combat...it's not really that difficult...and obviously using a larger monitor is a little better but, there are a couple of guys using laptops and they kick butt.
I've been to air shows...and air national guard bases...more often after I started playing AH...sitting 1/2 to 1 mile off the end of the runway (according to the odometer) you get all kinds of views on various aircraft...you're not seeing a lot of detail on a WWII fighter from a mile away, much less 2 miles...colors, reflections off bare metal and glass and depending on the angle, the insignia on the bottom of the wings are the size of postage stamps.
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And how do WW2 aircraft look in AH at a mile? Seeing any insignia on the wing? Thanks for making my point again.
As for immersive, the biggest joke on here is a guy crying that unless the other guy plays his way, it's not immersive.
Each and every one of us immerse ourselves into the game in our own way. PC quality, Monitors, controls, sound, fake cockpits, scenarios, choice of arenas, dressing up in LW leather, whatever.
Here's a shocker: if you're depending on someone else to provide your immersion, you're bound to fail.
I'll give you an example. Right now my machine in WW1, with everything turned down, will give 90 frames on the way to a furball. Once in the furball, it drops to the teens. Now, with everything turned down, I lose some immersion. When the frames go to 18, it REALLY drops my immersion.
That's all my problem, however, not someone else's. When my old gaming machine mobo melted, I never built a new gaming machine. So, it's my fault. Now that we have WW1 and more of what I originally played AH for, I think I will build a new machine that provides much more immersion for myself.
Same with icons. Do they ruin your immersion? Easy fix: Alt/I and turn them off on your computer.
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you guys are in such violent agreement you cant SEE toejamakemushrooms.
VERTY few in this or any thread can stay on a topic. Then move to the next. Without resolving a premise.
The problem with the icon debate is you guys need to frame the debate then stick to the point before moving on to other arguments.
There is so much implied claims supposition pre supposition and sloppy generalizations. It just makes me Yawn.
Or you guys take others words, quote only part, then "Reframe the debate"
I think the quote feature should be removed.
No matter what is in the game it can be used to improve game play for others or deminish it. It is the personal choice on how you play the game.
This thread is a perfect example........ The same way I see the quote feature being abused on the bbs. The same player will abuse the use of icons, or the the lack thereof.
Just my thoughts.
Play the game in a way the raised the level of play for everyone! It will go much further then trying to resovle the icon debate at this level.
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And how do WW2 aircraft look in AH at a mile? Seeing any insignia on the wing? Thanks for making my point again.
I'm going to throw zoom at you on that one...with the icon reading 2.5k using 3/4 zoom the insignia can be seen...obviously graphics settings determines how well it's rendered.
As for immersive, the biggest joke on here is a guy crying that unless the other guy plays his way, it's not immersive.
Here's a shocker: if you're depending on someone else to provide your immersion, you're bound to fail.
You do realize that the same argument is made on a daily basis about people who don't dogfight the way someone else thinks they should...and romper room names get tossed out because some jerk has a false sense of superiority just because he can stir his joystick faster than the other one? But I don't see 10 pages of people saying that kind of behavior is as unacceptable as the ideas posed on this thread. There is a whole lot of fail going on daily and more people are likely to jump on the bandwagon than say anything against it.
I'll give you an example. Right now my machine in WW1, with everything turned down, will give 90 frames on the way to a furball. Once in the furball, it drops to the teens. Now, with everything turned down, I lose some immersion. When the frames go to 18, it REALLY drops my immersion.
You have a settings problem...no way should your system be showing 90fps with vsync turned on...unless the monitor is a 120Hz or 240Hz and your video card is capable of rendering above standard monitor refresh rates. If you're game resolution is not set the same as your monitor resolution, you will get some bizarre and unstable frame rates.
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you guys are in such violent agreement you cant SEE soupakemushrooms.
VERTY few in this or any thread can stay on a topic. Then move to the next. Without resolving a premise.
The problem with the icon debate is you guys need to frame the debate then stick to the point before moving on to other arguments.
There is so much implied claims supposition pre supposition and sloppy generalizations. It just makes me Yawn.
Or you guys take others words, quote only part, then "Reframe the debate"
I think the quote feature should be removed.
No matter what is in the game it can be used to improve game play for others or deminish it. It is the personal choice on how you play the game.
This thread is a perfect example........ The same way I see the quote feature being abused on the bbs. The same player will abuse the use of icons, or the the lack thereof.
Just my thoughts.
Play the game in a way the raised the level of play for everyone! It will go much further then trying to resovle the icon debate at this level.
That being said, I think it was Oldman who was the only one who understood what I was really trying to say about how combat dynamics would be different with this idead. But somehow, this part of my original discussion was almost entirely missed. So what can I do...
Some, understandably see this as raising the difficulty of play. I dissagree. It just cuts out the premeditative nature of angles of veterans over newer pilots, hence, evening the odds for all players. I understand the argument of the naked eye versus limitations of computer graphics. Heck, i'd be happy with enemy ID's at 800-1,000 yards out or less just to try it one night in the special arenas.
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I'm going to throw zoom at you on that one...with the icon reading 2.5k using 3/4 zoom the insignia can be seen...obviously graphics settings determines how well it's rendered.
Zoom....there's goes peripheral vision. As noted in a quote above, peripheral is what gives us location. Location a key factor of ACM.
You do realize that the same argument is made on a daily basis about people who don't dogfight the way someone else thinks they should...and romper room names get tossed out because some jerk has a false sense of superiority just because he can stir his joystick faster than the other one? But I don't see 10 pages of people saying that kind of behavior is as unacceptable as the ideas posed on this thread.
The no icon superiority people are play my way guys. Should be obvious. No 10 page threads? Maybe those guys have finally figured out that you can't (and shouldn't try) make the other guy play your way?
Were you around back when the HT finally gave some players their long sought A v A arena? Go back and read the threads about that. Pretty entertaining, especially the claims made and the actual resulting history of the A v A arena.
You have a settings problem...no way should your system be showing 90fps with vsync turned on...unless the monitor is a 120Hz or 240Hz and your video card is capable of rendering above standard monitor refresh rates. If you're game resolution is not set the same as your monitor resolution, you will get some bizarre and unstable frame rates.
I'm always willing to learn. I will PM you with my settings and I'd appreciate any advice.
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That being said, I think it was Oldman who was the only one who understood what I was really trying to say about how combat dynamics would be different with this idead. But somehow, this part of my original discussion was almost entirely missed. So what can I do...
Not really. OM saw the opportunity to promote the AvA. Pretty match every thread now turns into the AvA is good, go there. No one promoting this is being honest really. If anyone wants to have a more realistic experience, they can remove icons for them selves. However, they are asking for my icons to be removed.
They are also not honest on what type of game play they are looking for. They want to make it harder to see them, and easier to pick to pick an run. No one has been able to describe how it will result to better ACM or fights. How can you fight someone you did not see coming? :lol
We got to the point now where Bighorn and Toad are considered clueless for not agreeing with a couple of two weekers. Really? It is a game, but like everything else, experience counts. I would take their 10 year based opinion over a guys whose only hope for a kill is to not been seen any time.
Bottom line is, if anyone wants icons off, go ahead and do it. No one is stopping you. Just leave my icons alone please.
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There is a difference in promoting Ava with no icons and promoting and arena where everyone has to.
The Ava which im am in favor, is different than a LW MA doing it.
You can come to the ava if you want to if you dont stay where you are.
There are a lot of implied claims in here so im not sure i can sort them all out. Here are my thoughts.
I believe that AvA with no icons is a better experience as far as immersion goes.. but it would only work on the smaller level with guys of like mind and attitude.
The guys that think the the MA is the better experience so be it.
Here are a few things I think make it better.
1. Two opposing plane sets. NOT 51 v 51 or la v la
2. With no icons you have to work better with friendlies. YOU cant just go after a red Icon.
3. Specifically I disagree with Dedalos about the pick and run. I havent seen it with no Icons. I do see it in the Ma with icons you can lock a read icon and bnz it to death. With different plane sets and no red icon SA has to be much better that MA.
The only thing that could improve the No icon approach is better graphics, visablility, etc. So you can make out the planes better as it would be in real life.
4.The only Half Icon thing where you turn your icons off doesnt work because there is a whole mentality that Icons promote that have nothing to do with being able to see a plane. The icon gives you info you cant get until you are in fighting distance. And i believe it changes the overall experience.
The icon lets you know is a bandit befor you could know that in real life imo. At 5k could you tell the difference in real life. That is what three miles.
People look for the icon in the game not the plane. You have too based on the way it is set up.
Del says how can you fight someone you cant see. that is the point you have to have better SA because you can see them with no icon you just have to improve your SA. You start by looking for the plane not the icon.
Not sure it will improve ACM you either have that or you don't It does improve SA and you are way more careful to look for all the bad guys, and to make sure you not saddling up on the six of a friendly.
The icons do solve some problems however it does handicap also.