Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: saantana on August 01, 2008, 06:44:36 PM
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Does anyone else find the squad 'Waffen SS' offending?
The Waffen-SS was a group of combat units composed of volunteer troops with particularly strong personal commitments to Nazi ideology and selected on a racial basis, so that people such as Jews or Poles were not allowed within the organisation.
Many Waffen-SS members were responsible for war crimes, and the Schutzstaffel organisation as a whole was held a criminal organization after the war by the post-war German government because there was undeniable evidence that many of its members perpetrated serious war crimes. Although some argue that the evidence in the cases of many Waffen-SS divisions is of individual rather than organisational culpability, this is unacceptable as a defence in a military unit
* Wormhoudt massacre by SS Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, 1940, Belgium
* Le Paradis massacre by SS Totenkopf, 1940, France
* Oradour-sur-Glane massacre by SS Das Reich, 1944, France
* Tulle massacre by SS Das Reich, 1944, France
* Marzabotto massacre by Reichsführer-SS, 1944, Italy
* Malmedy massacre by Kampfgruppe Peiper part of 1st SS Panzer Division, 1944, Belgium
* Ardeatine massacre by two SS Officers, 1944, Italy
* Distomo massacre by 4th SS Polizei Panzergrenadier Division, 1944, Greece
* Sant'Anna di Stazzema massacre SS Reichsführer SS, 1944, Italy
* Ardenne Abbey massacre 12th SS Panzer Division, 1944, France
Note: this is not a complete list of massacres perpetrated by the Waffen SS. There were many other incidents.
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I let you guess as to my opinion...
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I let you guess as to my opinion...
I'm sure ours are pretty similar on this one
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I'm sure ours are pretty similar on this one
yep
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If you are concerned about a squadron's name, take a screenshot of the name off the roster and email it to HTC for them to review and make the final judgement.
ack-ack
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I have a book called Loyalty is my Honor - it is all personal accounts by soldiers of the Waffen SS. Some groups did commit atrocities, but the majority were just awesome combat troops. It is a shame for the majority who did fight properly that the name has been tainted because they really were very good.
Would recommend this book to anyone: http://www.amazon.com/Loyalty-My-Honor-Gordon-Williamson/dp/0760300127
I do not personally find it offensive, but can understand others would.
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If you are concerned about a squadron's name, take a screenshot of the name off the roster and email it to HTC for them to review and make the final judgement.
ack-ack
I guess you are referring to the method I have chosen to post this on the forums.
I was going to do what you suggested after I got some replies, and I posted a question of the form 'does anyone else find it offending' to make sure it isn't just myself.
If it isn't, then it might serve as a reference for any future CO's wishing to name their squad in a similar manner.
Edit: Sorry Furball you posted just before I hit submit.
To answer your post I myself do not find offensive squad names such as any of the JG units or others as such. Waffen SS is quite different however in my opinion. It almost looks like a provocation
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If it's an in-game squadron name, you can bet it'll be gone/changed shortly...
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If it's an in-game squadron name, you can bet it'll be gone/changed shortly...
Check the squadron listing
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Ditto what Furball said.
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Check the squadron listing
by "shortly" I meant, "give it a day or 2."
<mutters about Gen ADHD>
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Ok, I'll bite.
Some groups did commit atrocities, but the majority were just awesome combat troops.
Could you not say that about jihadists in Iraq shooting at [edit]coalition[/edit] troops?
Now, before anyone starts flaming me, that not being my true personal opinion keep in mind.
Edit: I guess I see your point. I still do not however think such a squadron name is ok, just like a squadron named jihad would not be either.
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I don't really see how they are related?
Read the book, read first hand accounts, and then give me your opinion.
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O club?
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I don't really see how they are related?
Read the book, read first hand accounts, and then give me your opinion.
I'll bite again.
I live in a city now where SS troops went from house to house, dragged women, children and men alike and executed them on the streets in the thousands. I do not need to read reference books to form my opinion on those 'awsome' combat troops.
Infact, I'm sure some were pretty decent. However they did believe in an ideology which I do not feel you will protect, and thus regardless whether they were skilled in combat, they should not be honored.
Edit:
But then again that is just my opinion and you are entirely entitled to having yours. I'll email htc and see what they have to say, thank you for your comments everyone.
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Some groups did commit atrocities, but the majority were just awesome combat troops.
Awesome combat troops in the sense that they were well trained, experienced, well equipped and had good morale. They were excellent fighters.
I am not a Nazi sympathiser or indeed not denying that atrocities were committed.
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The SS Totenkopf was the most infamous Waffen SS division in regards to being concentration camp guards.
As Furball said, most of the rest were front line troops and took their place in the Wehrmacht order of battle.
I don't think a squad in AH should be named after them, however.
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We had a squad named waffenSS previously. It is no longer with us. that answers the question.
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If it's the same people who pulled this stunt last year they need to be banned. This is not the place for that stuff.
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Furball I never suggested anything to the contrary. I do not believe anyone on this board or even the CO of the squad is any kind of nazi supporter. I think it must be either a provocation or a young man who simply doesn't know what shudders the two letters SS make on many still living today.
DaveJ we agree on something. I call that progress and I'll have a Zywiec to go with it!
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It is never just black or white, but varying shades of gray.
Someone else could e.g. be offended by British or American bomber squadrons, because of killing civilians - women and children - intentionally. Atrocities happened in wars, usually on both/all sides, even in the recent ones.
Even though I don't approve the Nazis or the SS-organization, I do not condemn every SS-soldier for what some of them did. Then again, I also cannot see any sensible reason to use SS in connection with AH squadron names. After all, the SS units were only ground troops, and AH is a Flight sim ;)
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It is never just black or white, but varying shades of gray.
Someone else could e.g. be offended by British or American bomber squadrons, because of killing civilians - women and children - intentionally. Atrocities happened in wars, usually on both/all sides, even in the recent ones.
Even though I don't approve the Nazis or the SS-organization, I do not condemn every SS-soldier for what some of them did. Then again, I also cannot see any sensible reason to use SS in connection with AH squadron names. After all, the SS units were only ground troops, and AH is a Flight sim ;)
I'm not sure this argument holds.
Dropping bombs from thousands of feet is not the same as shooting people at point blank range, mass execution style.
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I'm not sure this argument holds.
Dropping bombs from thousands of feet is not the same as shooting people at point blank range, mass execution style.
Spot on.
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Yup, true. The bombs usually kill more.
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Yup, true. The bombs usually kill more.
Are you sure about that?
Edit: In overall figures your probably right. However if we were to include concentration camps in which SS played a role, we would come up with similar numbers I believe.
But that is besides the point. I do not believe a pilot dropping bombs on a city holds the same responsibility as a soldier shooting a civilian at point blank range. Not all of those pilots would be able to do the second, however all of those SS members in question would be able to do the first.
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The SS Totenkopf was the most infamous Waffen SS division in regards to being concentration camp guards.
As Furball said, most of the rest were front line troops and took their place in the Wehrmacht order of battle.
I don't think a squad in AH should be named after them, however.
You gents have been victims of revisionist history that has done a fairly effective job of trying to paint the Waffen SS as just another branch of the German military. The 1st SS Liebstandarte were Hitler's bodyguards to start.
Fanatical combat troops and very effective? Yes. loyalty oath to Hitler. Yes. Commit attrocities all over the place? Yes.
It would be an inappropriate squad name in here. What the Waffen SS has to do with an air combat game is beyond me. They were not a squadron at any point.
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Fanatical combat troops and very effective? Yes. loyalty oath to Hitler. Yes. Commit atrocities all over the place? Yes.
Again none of these are just black or white.
- I doubt the old men and young boys in 1945 Berlin were always very fanatical or effective.
- Giving a military oath is a ritual, who can say what each individual truly thinks. Married couples give oaths to each other, but do they all honor them?
- Every unit in every place, eh?
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If you are concerned about a squadron's name, take a screenshot of the name off the roster and email it to HTC for them to review and make the final judgement.
ack-ack
Thats the way to do it. I see a Fuzzy Bunnies in thier future.
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There is little difference between having Waffen SS or the Klu Klux Klan as a squad name
Both are a group of thugs that fought for the losing side of history and have vile deeds associated with their name.
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nm, already been said
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You gents have been victims of revisionist history that has done a fairly effective job of trying to paint the Waffen SS as just another branch of the German military.
It's actually almost neo-revisionist. The Germans did a fine job post-war convincing everyone that, while the other SS might have been bad, the Waffen SS was no different from the Wehrmacht except for their kewl uniforms and better equipment. Typically they used Guderian's reference in his biography as support (loosely translated: "Hey, I thought they were great and upstanding guys, because I don't want anyone to come after me for what they actually did while under my command"). It took scholars until the mid-1970s to disprove what really amounted to a colossal cover-up. Now I guess it's back to square one.
I'm with the guy who said that it's no different from a squad named KKK. In fact, it's far worse.
- oldman
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You gents have been victims of revisionist history that has done a fairly effective job of trying to paint the Waffen SS as just another branch of the German military. The 1st SS Liebstandarte were Hitler's bodyguards to start.
Fanatical combat troops and very effective? Yes. loyalty oath to Hitler. Yes. Commit attrocities all over the place? Yes.
It would be an inappropriate squad name in here. What the Waffen SS has to do with an air combat game is beyond me. They were not a squadron at any point.
I was just stating facts, Corky. I fully realize what alot of the front line SS troops did , which is why I don't support them as an AH squad name.
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There is little difference between having Waffen SS or the Klu Klux Klan as a squad name
Both are a group of thugs that fought for the losing side of history and have vile deeds associated with their name.
Sorry D., the KKK didn't fight at all during the Civil War. They were not a fighting unit. They weren't even formed until after the end of the war. Thugs, of course. However at first, they were something quite different from what they've become. It was when they started to adopt a more radical/evil nature, that their founder, Southern Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest split from the organization and never had another thing to do with it.
I don't approve of their actions either, but to compare them to the SS, is well, wrong.
IMHO
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I really don't care about some squad flying around using Waffen SS as a name for the squad.We have Sky Pimps,Lynch Mobs,Cherry poppers,Fukntz,Pushermen,to name a few,and a lot of cpids that are inflamatory.There are German fighter and jabo squads.Maybe we should ban their squad names as well.This a flight sim,and why anyone would want to be named the Waffen SS is beyond me.
As far as the SS being cruel,there is no doubt they had some problems with fighting fair,but if you think for one minute that the allies didn't commit atrocities,you should think again.War is a very nasty business,and the idea is to make the other guy want to quit!I say let HTC call the shots,and try not to get offended by the different squad names and cpids.
Dobe
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I'm not sure this argument holds.
Dropping bombs from thousands of feet is not the same as shooting people at point blank range, mass execution style.
a dead civilian is a dead civilian, the US and brits knew they were killing civilians in the mass bombing anf firebombing raids just as the waffen SS squads (that participated as such) knew they were killing civilians aswell..
in fact, all told, and if you count the pacific theater, im pretty sure the US killed FAR more civilians than the WaffenSS did..
but the winners write the history books, so it was the SS that were evil.
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I'm not sure this argument holds.
Dropping bombs from thousands of feet is not the same as shooting people at point blank range, mass execution style.
Tell that to the tens of thousands of people killed in the firestorms of Dresden by those bombs.
Look, war is war, and World War II was what it was. This game models the aircraft of World War II, including many German and Japanese planes. I don't see the point in demonizing the German military to the point where people are suggesting that players be banned for naming themselves after units in the German military. We've got JG11, JG7, JG6, and other Luftwaffe unit names and nobody complains, but call it the Waffen SS and suddenly players should be banned? I don't get it, and I don't agree.
By the way, by the end of the war the Waffen SS was conscripting all sorts of people, whether they wanted to be in it or not. My brother's friend's dad was conscripted into the Waffen SS during the last year of the war, and I am not sure he was even German.
I've seen all sorts of really stupid and offensive squad names, involving sexual innuendo and whatnot, and they seem to survive, but the Waffen SS should get players banned?
Ok, I'll agree to this one - no squad should call themselves "The Gleeful Concentration Camp Guards" or anything like that.
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Does anyone else find the squad 'Waffen SS' offending?
I do and don't find Waffen SS offending Saantana. To me waffen SS stands for the "special forces" of the German army, by accounts they
were given the best equipment of the German army, but on the other hands I will not dismiss the atrocities they have commited during World War 2.
However my nickname would fall under the same argument, Adonai stands for "God" in Hebrew which in a religious way offend those who are
Jewish, but in a video game like Aces High I chose the name as my "Callsign" rather then any other meaning. Believe me if "waffen SS" or "Adonai" was offending beyond a point that I believe would offend someone I do believe the name should be changed. However as I said unless the name
is a serious "insult" to a race or what not I don't believe it would be offending.
Believe me I had enough argument's about my callsign "adonai" however the name wasn't chosen to disrespect anyone in religion, it was
given to me by a former squad mate years ago - I thought he said it meant "god of the sky" in Greek, but I learned later it meant "God" in Hebrew.
I am sure the name offends some and only answer I can give them is please do not take a video game name to be insulting unless someone directly reason to find it insulting.
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Just a note to anyone that read my previous post - I am not in any way trying to compare my nickname to what the Waffen SS did during
World War 2. I was simply trying to state the similarities Saantana posted about the name Waffen SS being Offensive as my nickname could be.
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Agree with the revisionist theory. Its fashionable now (as from reading many posts) to try and have a moral equivelancy of Allied bombing to things like the gas chambers or outright murder by the SS, both the military arm, and special police units, and others.
I find them interesting as a student of history, but, and I will quote the author of "Ardennes 1944" James Arnold here:
"There appears to be a degree of misguided glamour attached to SS units, wether due to their elite status or possession of the more exotic armored hardware it is hard to say-events at Malmedy should remind wargamers of their inherent unpleasantness".
And to the question of a squad name? no, it has no place in AH2, imho.
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What next? A Niki squad calling themselve Unit 731?
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There really isn't a point in debating this topic. There has already been a precedence made on this in the past. Email HTC.
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There really isn't a point in debating this topic. There has already been a precedence made on this in the past. Email HTC.
Indeed!
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There really isn't a point in debating this topic. There has already been a precedence made on this in the past. Email HTC.
It's been done.
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I really don't care about some squad flying around using Waffen SS as a name for the squad.We have Sky Pimps,Lynch Mobs,Cherry poppers,Fukntz,Pushermen,to name a few,and a lot of cpids that are inflamatory.There are German fighter and jabo squads.Maybe we should ban their squad names as well.This a flight sim,and why anyone would want to be named the Waffen SS is beyond me.
As far as the SS being cruel,there is no doubt they had some problems with fighting fair,but if you think for one minute that the allies didn't commit atrocities,you should think again.War is a very nasty business,and the idea is to make the other guy want to quit!I say let HTC call the shots,and try not to get offended by the different squad names and cpids.
Dobe
I wish you guys would do two minutes of research beyond Wiki to learn a bit before you post.
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Agree with the revisionist theory. Its fashionable now (as from reading many posts) to try and have a moral equivelancy of Allied bombing to things like the gas chambers or outright murder by the SS, both the military arm, and special police units, and others.
The way I look at it, is any relatives of mine that may have died during an Allied bomber attack on a city during the war were, when it boils down to it, the victims of bad luck and chance.
The relatives of mine that were killed by the Germans (or Russians, take your pick) in Poland were, OTOH, killed by deliberate action.
In my mind there's a pretty big difference between saying, "Bomb this city," and "Shoot this particular family in the head."
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I didn't want to stirr up a heated argument. But I have to make some quotes to address the statements that bombing killed the most civilians. They are simply false and misguided, by a very,very big margin. Please let me correct you.
In World War II, strategic aerial bombardment claimed the lives of over 160,000 Allied airmen in the European theatre,[9] 60,595 British civilians and between 305,000 and 600,000 German civilians, [10][11] while American precision bombing, fire bombing and atomic bombing in Japan killed between 330,000 and 500,000 Japanese civilians
Heres some stats for you. This is civilians only, not counting men in arms.
Taking into account all the victims of Nazi persecution, the death toll rises considerably: estimates generally place the total number of victims at nine to 11 million
This is to address that bombing is similar to SS activity. Many people sideline the eastern front and what was happening in occupied lands, not just in Poland but in the Ukraine, Hungary, Romania and in the occupied Soviet Union. It was there that the Waffen SS commited their most well known war crimes. And that is regardless what kind of 'cool' tanks they were driving. Sorry thats just absurd.
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In my mind there's a pretty big difference between saying, "Bomb this city," and "Shoot this particular family in the head."
Really? What is the difference? The only difference that pops immediately into my mind, as someone pointed out, is that bombs kill a lot more people. Is it ok to kill people when you are too far away to see it happening? Do you think the bomber crews were so stupid that they didn't realize they were killing lots of people?
Why not be just as deeply offended by a squad name that has anything to do with bombs or bombing?
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Personally, I don't think it is/was anyones intention to offend anyone by creating this squad.. Some people just have a fascination with the German military of WWII along with its hardware, soldiers, and actions (valiant, honorable, or otherwise).. However, I agree that the political and religious connotations of having a squad called the Waffen SS is a bit inappropriate, what ever the intention....
Incidentally, we have 3 109 skins with swastikas on them..
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Incidentally, we have 3 109 skins with swastikas on them..
Those are Finnish 109s and their swastika was a different symbol, used before the Nazis came around.
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Really? What is the difference? The only difference that pops immediately into my mind, as someone pointed out, is that bombs kill a lot more people. Is it ok to kill people when you are too far away to see it happening? Do you think the bomber crews were so stupid that they didn't realize they were killing lots of people?
Why not be just as deeply offended by a squad name that has anything to do with bombs or bombing?
There is a big difference walrus.
Read my previous statement.
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Does anyone else find the squad 'Waffen SS' offending?
I absolutely agree with you , but I still find it rather harsh to say I dont like yo. If they like the name let them have it , if they like nazism let um have it. End of story , the way you think is how World War 2 started , everyone hates nazis so they fight them. I think that this game is suppost to be fun and not suppost to take things so seriously
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I didn't want to stirr up a heated argument. But I have to make some quotes to address the statements that bombing killed the most civilians. They are simply false and misguided, by a very,very big margin. Please let me correct you.
Heres some stats for you. This is civilians only, not counting men in arms.
This is to address that bombing is similar to SS activity. Many people sideline the eastern front and what was happening in occupied lands, not just in Poland but in the Ukraine, Hungary, Romania and in the occupied Soviet Union. It was there that the Waffen SS commited their most well known war crimes. And that is regardless what kind of 'cool' tanks they were driving. Sorry thats just absurd.
Since only a million and a half or so were all that were killed, I guess that's fine. If it were 2 million I would be offended.
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There is a big difference walrus.
Read my previous statement.
Ah yes, I see. It is ok to kill 1 to 2 million humans, but not 11 million.
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Ah yes, I see. It is ok to kill 1 to 2 million humans, but not 11 million.
What are you on about?
In none of my statements did I suggest any of the above are ok. However comparing them as similar is out of line. In doing so you are suggesting a building being hit by an unguided bomb is the same as a families being executed because they are of a different 'race'. That is in my opinion quite delusional.
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a dead civilian is a dead civilian, the US and brits knew they were killing civilians in the mass bombing anf firebombing raids just as the waffen SS squads (that participated as such) knew they were killing civilians aswell..
in fact, all told, and if you count the pacific theater, im pretty sure the US killed FAR more civilians than the WaffenSS did..
but the winners write the history books, so it was the SS that were evil.
You can't even make that comparison. There's a big difference between carpet bombing to bring an opponent to their knees compared to mass genocide of a people. In the first no one is exempt regardless of race, religion, etc. In the second it's a matter of exterminating a particular group of people selectively. The first is war, the second is hate/fear.
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What are you on about?
In none of my statements did I suggest any of the above are ok. However comparing them as similar is out of line. In doing so you are suggesting a building being hit by an unguided bomb is the same as a families being executed because they are of a different 'race'. That is in my opinion quite delusional.
I think that comparing them as similar is right in line, actually. The people dropping the bombs knew quite well that they were killing people. You don't think the bomber crews were so delusional that they thought they were only destroying the buildings, and not the people inside?
So killing people because they are of a different "race" is somehow worse than killing people for other reasons?
I still fail to see how these are so different. Is one "meaner" than the other? Sorry, I just feel that killing people in droves is bad no matter how it is carried out. I think it is silly to be offended by a group because they killed people, and then not be offended by another group because they killed people in a different way.
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You can't even make that comparison. There's a big difference between carpet bombing to bring an opponent to their knees compared to mass genocide of a people. In the first no one is exempt regardless of race, religion, etc. In the second it's a matter of exterminating a particular group of people selectively. The first is war, the second is hate/fear.
Killing people because you hate their race - bad. Killing people because you hate their government - acceptable. Got it.
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This needs not go any further, i studied WW2 and the holocaust in depth, the waffen SS may have been partially a decent combat unit, but it wasn't, no combat unit goes to a town and systematically executes every man women and child, or better yet takes them on a train to relocation and just sprays them down with bullets above a readied mass grave, their actions where systematic and planned, a genocide period.
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This needs not go any further, i studied WW2 and the holocaust in depth, the waffen SS may have been partially a decent combat unit, but it wasn't, no combat unit goes to a town and systematically executes every man women and child, or better yet takes them on a train to relocation and just sprays them down with bullets above a readied mass grave, their actions where systematic and planned, a genocide period.
I agree bro
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What are you on about?
In none of my statements did I suggest any of the above are ok. However comparing them as similar is out of line.
One order of magnitude difference in the numbers does not render the actions dissimilar. Since when do figures have to match precisely for two things to be similar?
In doing so you are suggesting a building being hit by an unguided bomb is the same as a families being executed because they are of a different 'race'. That is in my opinion quite delusional.
Why did that unguided bomb hit that building? Because someone flew a bomber over to the city that building was in, aimed their crosshairs over a populated area filled with such buildings, and pushed a button that dropped a stick of such bombs with the specific intent that these buildings be hit, blown up, and the people inside killed. And why were these people targeted? Because they were Germans.
Look, I deplore what the Waffen SS did in the instances where they committed war crimes. There's simply no question that these were heinous acts. But to allow WWII military unit names as Aces High squadron names, in all cases but the instance where someone calls theirs "Waffen SS", and then call for that player to be banned, is ludicrous.
Should I be banned if I create a squadron called Wehrmacht? That's the military organization that invaded Poland, France, Russia, and many others. And don't tell me no war crimes were committed by members of the Wehrmacht. And how about if I create a squadron called Luftwaffe? Or Kriegsmarine? For heaven's sake, German subs would torpedo ships and then observe survivors clinging to oily wreckage in the frigid water through the periscope, and then submerge and leave them to die. So should I be banned if I name a squad U-bootwaffe? What if I create an account and use the Doenitz? Or what if I call myself VonBraun, do I get banned because his V1 and V2 "Vergeltungswaffen" (which basically means retribution weapons) rained death and terror on London and environs?
As I said in my previous post, the entire subject of World War II is filled with horrible actions and horrible circumstances, and horrible deaths. To indulge in simulation of its combat with German and Japanese weaponry, allow German and Japanese unit names, etc. implies a level of comprehension of and exposure to the evil as well as the interesting (sometimes those overlap), virtuous, or otherwise noteworthy aspects of the subject. I do find it rather stupid that, in this way, we immerse ourselves in World War II and then freak out when someone mentions the Waffen SS.
ps: Should I be banned if I made a squad and called it 23rd ID, because it was elements of the 23rd Infantry Division which committed the My Lai massacre in Vietname?
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Of course it's HTC's game, and they'll do whatever they want, whatever I or anyone else may think about it, so since they've been informed of the name, I reckon the discussion here is moot.
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I was just stating facts, Corky. I fully realize what alot of the front line SS troops did , which is why I don't support them as an AH squad name.
The fact is that you could not be in the "SS" if you were not a Nazi, period. end of story.
It is a shame that some people look at the "SS" as if they were just your avg joe trying to get thru a bad situation as best they could, nothing could be further from the truth, these people were Nazi's, they were concidered by hitler to be the tip of the Nazi spear.
They were cold blooded killers, I am offended as a former soldier thet anyone would could give them a drop of honor, they had none.
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Killing people because you hate their race - bad. Killing people because you hate their government - acceptable. Got it.
so you actually believe that war crimes are foolish and the world should just let them slide? Because if you interevene in the best way you know how, given the technology of the time, and end up killing innocent people, you are in fact just as guilty of war crimes because innocent people died? Forget about the intent, forget about, rape/enslavement/torture/genocide...its all the same?
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The fact is that you could not be in the "SS" if you were not a Nazi, period. end of story.
It is a shame that some people look at the "SS" as if they were just your avg joe trying to get thru a bad situation as best they could, nothing could be further from the truth, these people were Nazi's, they were concidered by hitler to be the tip of the Nazi spear.
They were cold blooded killers, I am offended as a former soldier thet anyone would could give them a drop of honor, they had none.
And I am not disagreeing with you man, I fully support what you said!
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The fact is that you could not be in the "SS" if you were not a Nazi, period. end of story.
And that is not true.
Even the so much despised Wikipedia will help you over that misguided statement:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS#Foreign_volunteers_and_conscripts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Waffen_SS_volunteers
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The Holocaust is kind of a side track in this discussion, since we are talking about Waffen-SS, not about the Algemeine-SS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS#War_crimes
Of cource you may want to argue that they were all the same in SS... and all the Germans were the same, etc... maybe even all blond europeans were the same.
Lastly, about the cold blooded intention. Just for the sake of argument, what is the real difference between Evenheim's example of "unit goes to a town and systematically executes every man women and child" and dropping the A-bomb to Hirosima and Nagasaki, or RAF bombing Hamburg and Dresden?
Both are inhumane terror acts. Both aim to demoralize the enemy so that they would not dare to attack against you anymore. The SS troops did just that. E.g. some partisans or underground resistance had killed couple of their men, thus they killed a whole town from that area.
I still claim that some Waffen-SS men did commit atrocities just as some allied bomber units did commit atrocities. BUT not all of them did!
The biggest difference is the connection Waffen-SS, as an organization, had to the despised Nazi party and to their ideology. Still that does not make every Waffen-SS soldier a Nazi.
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lmao @ the apologists in this thread.
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And that is not true.
Even the so much despised Wikipedia will help you over that misguided statement:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS#Foreign_volunteers_and_conscripts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Waffen_SS_volunteers
Yes this is true. Thousands of Ukranians and Fins were offered the chance to join the SS as the war progressed. I'm not sure what percentage of them were hardcore Nazis, however.
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And that is not true.
Even the so much despised Wikipedia will help you over that misguided statement:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS#Foreign_volunteers_and_conscripts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Waffen_SS_volunteers
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The Holocaust is kind of a side track in this discussion, since we are talking about Waffen-SS, not about the Algemeine-SS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS#War_crimes
Of cource you may want to argue that they were all the same in SS... and all the Germans were the same, etc... maybe even all blond europeans were the same.
Lastly, about the cold blooded intention. Just for the sake of argument, what is the real difference between Evenheim's example of "unit goes to a town and systematically executes every man women and child" and dropping the A-bomb to Hirosima and Nagasaki, or RAF bombing Hamburg and Dresden?
Both are inhumane terror acts. Both aim to demoralize the enemy so that they would not dare to attack against you anymore. The SS troops did just that. E.g. some partisans or underground resistance had killed couple of their men, thus they killed a whole town from that area.
I still claim that some Waffen-SS men did commit atrocities just as some allied bomber units did commit atrocities. BUT not all of them did!
The biggest difference is the connection Waffen-SS, as an organization, had to the despised Nazi party and to their ideology. Still that does not make every Waffen-SS soldier a Nazi.
To even compare a bomber pilot and his crew who dropped bombs to men who could systematically shoot children, women and men alike in the back of the head and then watch them fall into a mass grave is simply, again, dillusional. I think those that say that are simply out of their mind.
Frankly, I'm surprised such opinions reign among players of this game. Some facts that you state do hold merit. For instance, I agree with you that dropping bombs on civilian populations is not acceptable. It is not genocide, however. To compare those men with Waffen SS men who did what I stated above, and using arguments such as the ones you describe above do not hold any merit with me.
They did not just, go to villages and shoot people because those people killed a few of their men. They shot them also because they were a different 'race', 'religion', or nationality. That is the definition of genocide. Not because they were at war with their government. After all, their country was already occupied.
Wars are fought, and innocent people do get caught in the crossfire. That is not genocide. Executing innocent civilians under occupation because of a different race, is genocide. Get your facts and definitions sorted out.
They were not honorable.
They should not be remembered as such.
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So killing people because they are of a different "race" is somehow worse than killing people for other reasons?
Yes, infact I do think it's worst.
To make my point. I think John Smith executed by a member of the Waffen SS because he is jewish, or because he is the Soviet Union, or because he is catholic, whatever, is much worst than executing a prison inmate accused of first degree murder.
Maybe you should have used the term 'murder'. Civilians killed by bombs, were, killed in my opinion. SS men murdered them.
I'm sorry I just had to bite.
I'm not responding to this thread anymore. Thank you all for your opinions and I really didn't think it would turn into such a broad discussion. I have already emailed HTC about it.
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15th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Latvian)
The Division fought on the Pomeranian Wall defences. At Podgaje, 2 February 1945, men of that division performed a war crime on Polish prisoners, burning in a barn 32 soldiers from 4th company, 3rd regiment infantry 1st Division Polish First Army tied up with a barbed wire.
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Does anyone else find the squad 'Waffen SS' offending?
aaww jeeezzess christmas dude!!!!!!
i don't agree with it either, but.......
we all know the ss did horrible stuff. no excuse.
but c'mon?? words only hurt/offend you IF you let them. if you don't let them, they those very same words have 0 meaning.
finally........since we all know HTC will ban the name, this is the wrong place. an email directy to htc would solve your problem much much more efficiently
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I guess you are referring to the method I have chosen to post this on the forums.
I was going to do what you suggested after I got some replies, and I posted a question of the form 'does anyone else find it offending' to make sure it isn't just myself.
If it isn't, then it might serve as a reference for any future CO's wishing to name their squad in a similar manner.
Edit: Sorry Furball you posted just before I hit submit.
To answer your post I myself do not find offensive squad names such as any of the JG units or others as such. Waffen SS is quite different however in my opinion. It almost looks like a provocation
but the problem with your theory here? someone can and probably will find offense in pretty much anything.
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but c'mon?? words only hurt/offend you IF you let them. if you don't let them, they those very same words have 0 meaning.
So it would be okay to set a shop in the middle of New York and name it "Osama", and then "don't be offended!" to angry citizens?
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it is never just black or white, but varying shades of gray.
One of the problems with today's society is the unwillingness of people to "make a stand". Accepting the fact that "it is never just black or white, but varying shades of gray." just adds to the problem. People need to get rid of the "varying shades".....it's either "right OR it's wrong". Remember, "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything" :)
Even though I don't approve the Nazis or the SS-organization, I do not condemn every SS-soldier for what some of them did.
Perhaps "guilty by association" applies here?
Then again, I also cannot see any sensible reason to use SS in connection with AH squadron names. After all, the SS units were only ground troops, and AH is a Flight sim ;)
Exactly!
Someone else could e.g. be offended by British or American bomber squadrons, because of killing civilians - women and children - intentionally. Atrocities happened in wars, usually on both/all sides, even in the recent ones.
War is obscene! :furious
dentin has left the building :salute
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So it would be okay to set a shop in the middle of New York and name it "Osama", and then "don't be offended!" to angry citizens?
waaaay different situation.
this is ingame. a word on a computer screen. it can be very easily avoided.
all in all, it won't matter by monday morning though.
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Those are Finnish 109s and their swastika was a different symbol, used before the Nazis came around.
Oh....Forgive me, I was not aware....
However, I am familiar with the swastikas different connotations and meanings throughout history....
Just didn't know this was one of them... :salute
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Hopefully I can make this post w/o bringing down Corkies wrath about not researching anything before posting.He wasn't specific about any thing I said,so I'm not sure what sat him off.
The SS had conscripts within it's ranks,and not all were Nazi's.Some of the units fought well,others did not.When the war was closing,many of the units defending Berlin were SS of one type or another.The swastika has been around a long time,and the Nazi's don't have a lock on that one.
I still say HTC should decide on what squad names and cpids go over the line of acceptability,and leave the playing of the game to us.
Dobe
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Killing people because you hate their race - bad. Killing people because you hate their government - acceptable. Got it.
The Nazi's sought out and mass exterminated specific citizens of their own and other countries. That had nothing to do with war or combat. They stripped them and re-cycled their clothing, they shaved their heads and used their hair, they pulled their fillings, lined them up, sent them into gas chambers then burned their bodies or dumped them in mass graves.
I find it hard to believe that you can't make a distiction between this and the normal course of war. I suppose you think the recent genocides in Rwanda and Bosnia were OK too. Hey, it's just "war" right?
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Really? What is the difference? The only difference that pops immediately into my mind, as someone pointed out, is that bombs kill a lot more people. Is it ok to kill people when you are too far away to see it happening? Do you think the bomber crews were so stupid that they didn't realize they were killing lots of people?
Why not be just as deeply offended by a squad name that has anything to do with bombs or bombing?
The difference is because bombing in the first half of the 20th Century was very indiscriminate by nature. Sure the crews knew that they might be killing large numbers of civilians, but the job was to bomb a certain target. The difference between bombing from 20k vs gun muzzle against the head and pulling the trigger are very distinct. With one, you will more than likely have survivors, with the second, ........
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The squad name don't bother me a bit. ;)
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Does anyone else find the squad 'Waffen SS' offending?
Nope.
If you are "offended" on the basis that they took part in the Holocaust, you might be confusing the Waffen with the Allgemeine.
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Even though you are not answering anymore, I'll point out the parts you missed.
To compare those men with Waffen SS men who did what I stated above...
They did not just, go to villages and shoot people because those people killed a few of their men. They shot them also because they were a different 'race', 'religion', or nationality.
I suppose you did not get the difference between Waffen-SS and Algemeine-SS.
Combat troops hardly had time to inspect and select people, they more likely shot them all without discrimination in those war crimes that happened.
The systematic genocide was the business of Algemeine-SS and of the concentration camp guards.
That is the definition of genocide. Not because they were at war with their government. After all, their country was already occupied.
There is war also in the back areas... partisans, sabotage, etc. I dont see what difference the occupation makes to the intentionally killed/murdered civilians.
Wars are fought, and innocent people do get caught in the crossfire.
The bombings I mentioned above were not just crossfire. They were intentional operations to wipe out entire cities, and they were directed primarily against the civilian population.
They were not honorable.
They should not be remembered as such.
Hmm.. still one of them was recently (in 2003) buried with honors at the Arlington National Cemetary in USA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauri_T%C3%B6rni
http://modern-war.suite101.com/article.cfm/us_special_forces_legend_larry_thorne
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The Nazi's sought out and mass exterminated specific citizens of their own and other countries. That had nothing to do with war or combat. They stripped them and re-cycled their clothing, they shaved their heads and used their hair, they pulled their fillings, lined them up, sent them into gas chambers then burned their bodies or dumped them in mass graves.
I find it hard to believe that you can't make a distiction between this and the normal course of war. I suppose you think the recent genocides in Rwanda and Bosnia were OK too. Hey, it's just "war" right?
It's ok to kill civilians and wipe out cities if it is part of what baldeagl calls "the normal course of war". Got it. I guess I won't be offended by bombing then.
I never said there was anything ok about genocide or about bombing civilians. You are the one trying to justify mass killings. I'm just trying to understand why one method of killing is more offensive than the other.
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Lastly, about the cold blooded intention. Just for the sake of argument, what is the real difference between Evenheim's example of "unit goes to a town and systematically executes every man women and child" and dropping the A-bomb to Hirosima and Nagasaki, or RAF bombing Hamburg and Dresden?
One is for the sole purpose of exterminating one or more ethnicities considered to be subhumans and the more you kill the better, the other to end the war as soon as possible and prevent more casualties.
If you can't see that, then I don't know...
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With the bombings, it was made to demoralize the civilians to help win the war faster. The murder of their own countrymen probably set them back. As they could have used them to make bullets, planes, ANY thing.
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One is for the sole purpose of exterminating one or more ethnicities considered to be subhumans and the more you kill the better, the other to end the war as soon as possible and prevent more casualties.
If you can't see that, then I don't know...
Bighorn, we are talking about Waffen-SS and their war crimes here, not Algemeine-SS and the genocide.
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If I can't have a Confederate flag (which has been kidnapped by skinhead punks and the KKK) without being called a racist, then there can't be a Waffen SS squad (haven't read whole thread, anyone point out where they executed Allied prisoners during Battle of the Bulge?)
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Hopefully I can make this post w/o bringing down Corkies wrath about not researching anything before posting.He wasn't specific about any thing I said,so I'm not sure what sat him off.
The SS had conscripts within it's ranks,and not all were Nazi's.Some of the units fought well,others did not.When the war was closing,many of the units defending Berlin were SS of one type or another.The swastika has been around a long time,and the Nazi's don't have a lock on that one.
I still say HTC should decide on what squad names and cpids go over the line of acceptability,and leave the playing of the game to us.
Dobe
That there were conscripts in 1944-45 Waffen SS units, has nothing to do with the formation, ideology and mission of the SS. The post war revisionism that has tried to seperate the Waffen SS from the Allgemeine SS has clearly worked.
Liebstandarte, Totenkopf, HitlerJungend, etc were all in black before becoming Waffen SS divisions.
There is no seperation. Just cause they had 'cool' stuff and ended up in something other then black, doesn't change what the SS which includes the Waffen SS was all about.
I spent a lot of years fascinated by the Waffen SS and the more research I did, and the more I read, opened my eyes to what it was all about. We're not talking just Malmedy in 44. Go back to France 1940 and what the Leibstandarte troops did to POWS there. Check up on the Canadians in Normandy that were massacred by Hitler Jungend. Spend a little time checking out the atrocities on the Eastern front. Were talking far beyond the bounds of war which are horrific as is.
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anyone point out where they executed Allied prisoners during Battle of the Bulge?
Bill O'Reily
:noid
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Bighorn, we are talking about Waffen-SS and their war crimes here, not Algemeine-SS and the genocide.
Read the "Valhalla's Warriors: A History of the Waffen-SS on the Eastern Front 1941-1945". Nothing new in it, but nevertheless, well researched book.
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Spend a little time checking out the atrocities on the Eastern front.
Enough atrocities in that area alone to let someone know how the SS worked. 9,000,000 :( comes to mind
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Read the "Valhalla's Warriors: A History of the Waffen-SS on the Eastern Front 1941-1945". Nothing new in it, but nevertheless, well researched book.
Would it prove to me that every Waffen-SS man and unit was evil and commited war crimes? I doubt it.
That is all I am saying. People should not generalize issues due to individual events.
It is always easier to put everything under one title... all Americans are this and all **** are that.
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Would it prove to me that every Waffen-SS man and unit was evil and commited war crimes? I doubt it.
That is all I am saying. People should not generalize issues due to individual events.
It is always easier to put everything under one title... all Americans are this and all **** are that.
Speaking of generalizing. What the SS stood for and the tactics it employed in a campaign to murder and terrorize countries does not eliminate those who were in the SS that did not actively participate.
The question was is naming a squad "Waffen SS" appropriate. The answer seems clear in my mind. No because of what it represents. There is no way to talk around that and try and justify it.
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Would it prove to me that every Waffen-SS man and unit was evil and commited war crimes? I doubt it.
That is all I am saying. People should not generalize issues due to individual events.
Not every individual, no, but as organization yes, furthermore, atrocities committed by Waffen SS, especially on eastern front, by all means were not isolated incidents.
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Speaking of generalizing. What the SS stood for and the tactics it employed in a campaign to murder and terrorize countries does not eliminate those who were in the SS that did not actively participate.
The question was is naming a squad "Waffen SS" appropriate. The answer seems clear in my mind. No because of what it represents. There is no way to talk around that and try and justify it.
I think most of us here agree that it is not a good name for a squadron. I would not really object too much though, if some GV oriented group used some carefully selected SS name.
I could e.g. see myself playing some ground war GAME in SS Freiwilligen-Battalion Nordost or SS-Division Wiking without any remorse.
It is funny how many refuse to compare or even discuss the allied atrocities, or generalizing on their organizations in this context. Had Allies lost the war (which fortunately they did not), I bet the list of war crimes might look quite different. It must be difficult to think that even one's own country has done evil deeds.
No bite on Larry Thorne yet... anyone?? ;)
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I think most of us here agree that it is not a good name for a squadron. I would not really object too much though, if some GV oriented group used some carefully selected SS name.
I could e.g. see myself playing some ground war GAME in SS Freiwilligen-Battalion Nordost or SS-Division Wiking without any remorse.
It is funny how many refuse to compare or even discuss the allied atrocities, or generalizing on their organizations in this context. Had Allies lost the war (which fortunately they did not), I bet the list of war crimes might look quite different. It must be difficult to think that even one's own country has done evil deeds.
wow
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I am offended whenever anyone gets offended and decides to go on the offensive against individuals.
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It is funny how many refuse to compare or even discuss the allied atrocities
Because they cannot be compared. Atrocities committed by the allies were rather few and they were not part of allied ideology of the race supremacy.
It's kinda like comparison between 1st degree murderer and a guy who killed in self defense. In both cases somebody lost life, so in your opinion both should be equally guilty?
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Because they cannot be compared. Atrocities committed by the allies were rather few and they were not part of allied ideology of the race supremacy.
It's kinda like comparison between 1st degree murderer and a guy who killed in self defense. In both cases somebody lost life, so in your opinion both should be equally guilty?
Forget it BH, he just won't open his eyes. Might as well be talking to the wall.
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:lol You just stole my words yanksfan.
A-bombs, Hamburg and Dresden bombings were not premeditated acts of terror. They were simply righteous self defence :) Now I get it. That's what those kids get for supporting (or was it suffering from) their rotten governments.
I was only hoping to open some self-righteous eyes. Tough nut to crack obviously.
How can you guys bare an ex-SS-soldier as one of your celebrated US special forces hero? :rofl
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Because they cannot be compared. Atrocities committed by the allies were rather few and they were not part of allied ideology of the race supremacy.
It's kinda like comparison between 1st degree murderer and a guy who killed in self defense. In both cases somebody lost life, so in your opinion both should be equally guilty?
Actually, he has a vaild point re: the Allied fire bombing of the Axis cities. We DID target civilians. Heck, we killed FAR more Japanese from firebombing their cities than from the Atom bombs. We can justify it in hindsight because of all the nasty things the Germans did, but the blood of millions of civilians are on the Allied hands.
(disclaimer: Sometimes you have to go all out and do "total war" tactics and WWII was indeed one of those times)
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Even though you are not answering anymore, I'll point out the parts you missed.
I suppose you did not get the difference between Waffen-SS and Algemeine-SS.
Combat troops hardly had time to inspect and select people, they more likely shot them all without discrimination in those war crimes that happened.
The systematic genocide was the business of Algemeine-SS and of the concentration camp guards.
There is war also in the back areas... partisans, sabotage, etc. I dont see what difference the occupation makes to the intentionally killed/murdered civilians.
The bombings I mentioned above were not just crossfire. They were intentional operations to wipe out entire cities, and they were directed primarily against the civilian population.
Hmm.. still one of them was recently (in 2003) buried with honors at the Arlington National Cemetary in USA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauri_T%C3%B6rni
http://modern-war.suite101.com/article.cfm/us_special_forces_legend_larry_thorne
Wow.
After the war, at the Nuremberg Trials the Waffen-SS was condemned as a criminal organisation due to their political connections to the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP), and involvement in war crimes and The Holocaust, this is all except conscripts sworn in after 1943, who were exempted from the judgment on the basis of involuntary servitude. Therefore Waffen-SS veterans were denied many of the rights afforded to other German combat veterans who had served in the Heer, Luftwaffe or Kriegsmarine.[5] Waffen-SS soldiers were held in separate, more rigorous confinement by the Western Allies and were punished severely by the Soviet Union. As well, many Waffen-SS men recruited from German-occupied countries in Europe were punished by their home countries.
Many Waffen-SS members were responsible for war crimes, and the Schutzstaffel organisation as a whole was held a criminal organization after the war by the post-war German government because there was undeniable evidence that many of its members perpetrated serious war crimes. Although some argue that the evidence in the cases of many Waffen-SS divisions is of individual rather than organisational culpability, this is unacceptable as a defence in a military unit.[who?] While formations such as Dirlewanger and Kaminski Brigades, though many others were involved - either in large-scale massacres or smaller scale atrocities such as the Houtman affair.
The Wormhoudt massacre (or Wormhout massacre) was an atrocity against soldiers hors de combat in World War II that occurred on Tuesday 28 May 1940 when the German Infantry Regiment Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler under the command of Sepp Dietrich, and allegedly specifically the 2nd Battalion commanded by Hauptsturmführer Wilhelm Mohnke, killed approximately 80 British prisoners of war (POWs). The murdered men were soldiers from the 2nd Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment, the Cheshire Regiment, and Royal Artillery as well as French soldiers in charge of a military depot in a nearby farm.
The Le Paradis massacre was a war crime committed by members of the 14th Company, SS Division Totenkopf, under the command of Hauptsturmführer Fritz Knöchlein. It took place on 27 May 1940, during the Battle of France, at a time when the British Expeditionary Force (BEF) was attempting to retreat through the Pas-de-Calais region during the Allied evacuation from Dunkirk.
Soldiers of the 2nd Battalion, the Royal Norfolk Regiment, had become isolated from their regiment. They occupied and defended a farmhouse against an attack by Waffen-SS forces in the village of Le Paradis. After running out of ammunition, the defenders surrendered to the German troops. The Germans led them across the road to a wall, and machine-gunned them. Ninety-seven British troops died. Two survived, with injuries, and hid until they were captured by German forces several days later.
Oradour-sur-Glane (Occitan: Orador de Glana) is a town and commune in the Haute-Vienne département of central-western France.
This village was destroyed on 10 June 1944, when 642 of its inhabitants were murdered by a German Waffen-SS company.
During the Second World War, the 2nd SS Division Das Reich division of the Waffen SS perpetrated a massacre of civilians in Tulle. On 9 June 1944 a large number of male civilians were rounded up by the SS. Of these, 97 were randomly selected and then hanged from lamposts and balconies in the town. Additionally, another 321 captives were sent to forced labour camps in Germany.
The Marzabotto massacre was a World War II mass murder that took place in the territory around the small village of Marzabotto in the mountainous area south of Bologna. It was the worst massacre of civilians committed in Italy during the war by Germany.
In reprisal of the local support given to the partisans and the resistance movement, between September 29 and October 5, 1944, soldiers of the 16th SS Panzergrenadier Division Reichsführer-SS, led by SS-Sturmbannführer Walter Reder, systematically killed hundreds of people in Marzabotto and in the adjacent Grizzana Morandi and Monzuno, in the area of the massif of Monte Sole, part of the Apennine range, in the province of Bologna.
Some confusion regarding the number of victims arose during the years: some sources report up to 1,830 victims, others estimate 955 people killed.
The Malmedy massacre refers to a war crime in which about 90 unarmed American prisoners of war were executed by their German captors. The massacre was committed on December 17, 1944 by Kampfgruppe Peiper (part of the 1st SS Panzer Division), a German combat unit, during the Battle of the Bulge.
This massacre, as well as others committed by the same unit the same day and on the following days, was the subject of a trial during the Dachau Trials of 1946.
The Fosse Ardeatine massacre (Italian: Eccidio delle Fosse Ardeatine) was a mass execution carried out in Rome on 24 March 1944 by Nazi German occupation troops during the Second World War as a reprisal for a partisan attack conducted on the previous day in central Rome.
In fact, by error, a total of three hundred thirty-five Italian hostages were taken, composed of civilians (including Jews from the local community) who were casually picked up on the city streets, Italian prisoners of war (up to General rank), previously captured partisans and some inmates from Roman prisons. The massacre was perpetrated without prior public notice in what was then a little-frequented rural suburb of the city, inside the tunnels of the disused quarries of pozzolana, near Via Ardeatina (Italian: Cave Ardeatine).
On 24 March, led by SS officers Erich Priebke and Karl Hass, the victims were transported to the Ardeatine caves and then, in groups of five, were put to death inside the caves.
The Distomo massacre (Greek: Η σφαγή τού Διστόμου; German: Massaker von Distomo or Distomo-Massaker) was a Nazi war crime perpetrated by members of the Waffen-SS in the village of Distomo, Greece, during the Axis occupation of Greece during World War II.
On June 10, 1944, over two hours, Waffen-SS troops of the 4th SS Polizei Panzergrenadier Division went door to door and massacred Greek civilians, reportedly in revenge for a partisan attack. A total of 218 men, women and children were killed.[1] According to survivors, SS forces "bayoneted babies in their cribs, stabbed pregnant women, and beheaded the village priest."[2]
Sant'Anna di Stazzema massacre was a World War II atrocity in the village of Sant'Anna di Stazzema, Italy.
On August 12, 1944, retreating SS-men of the II Battallion of SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 35 of 16th SS Panzergrenadier Division Reichsführer-SS, commanded by SS-Hauptsturmführer Anton Galler, rounded up 560 villagers and refugees — mostly women, children and older men — shot them and then burned their bodies.
Ardenne Abbey, or "l'Abbaye d'Ardenne", is the site of a Premonstratensian monastery in Saint-Germain-la-Blanche-Herbe, near Caen, France containing a chapel built in 1121 and other medieval buildings.
In June 1944, during the Battle of Normandy, Ardenne Abbey was the location of the headquarters of SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment 25, commanded by SS-Standartenführer Kurt Meyer. On June 7, eighteen captured Canadian soldiers of The North Nova Scotia Highlanders and the 27th Canadian Armoured Regiment (the Sherbrooke Fusiliers) were taken to the abbey and killed by the Hitler Youth 12th SS Panzer Division. The remains of the soldiers were moved to the Bény-sur-Mer Canadian War Cemetery, along with those of other soldiers killed in the early stages of the Battle of Normandy.
I sir do not believe I missed anything. Indeed, I think it is you who is confused, following the apologist line of argument.
These quotes do not include the eastern front.
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You have made several statements, which I will address one by one.
1-I suppose you did not get the difference between Waffen-SS and Algemeine-SS.
Yes I did, and still do. I believe it is you who are confused.
2-Combat troops hardly had time to inspect and select people, they more likely shot them all without discrimination in those war crimes that happened.
False. Actually, I find this statement most disturbing. Indeed I think you crossed the line and that statement is just bad taste.
3-The systematic genocide was the business of Algemeine-SS and of the concentration camp guards.
False. The units you mention took part, yes. But Waffen SS units were involved in systematic genocide and war crimes also.
4-There is war also in the back areas... partisans, sabotage, etc. I dont see what difference the occupation makes to the intentionally killed/murdered civilians.
The unability to comprehend the difference is your problem, not mine.
5-The bombings I mentioned above were not just crossfire. They were intentional operations to wipe out entire cities, and they were directed primarily against the civilian population.
True. However, again, saying the attrocities mentioned above can be compared to this is simply dillusional. I have tried to explain to you several times why this is the case.
You are entitled to your opinion. However do not state false information and accusations that I do not 'understand', or somehow 'do not comprehend' where I differ from your line of thinking.
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The organinational name of the "SS", regardless of the precurser, denotes nothing but evil. A great war was fought, and many of our forefathers, fathers, uncles, mothers, sisters, brothers and aunts died as a result.
Just the term "SS" brings up such dark thoughts and ideas of the great suffering of many, many innocent peoples who were murdered because of their birth or their faith, that it is almost unbearable to think of it without great emotion.
To me, it is no different than using as a squadron name that of of "alkida" "binladan" or any other unit designation which denotes the current name of of some extremist organization which looks to destory any people because of their beliefs, country of origin, or belief that "all men are crated equal", and that they have the "right to pursue freedom, life and happiness, equality and prosperity".
Let not their life be sacraficed in vain. :salute
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:lol You just stole my words yanksfan.
A-bombs, Hamburg and Dresden bombings were not premeditated acts of terror. They were simply righteous self defence :) Now I get it. That's what those kids get for supporting (or was it suffering from) their rotten governments.
I was only hoping to open some self-righteous eyes. Tough nut to crack obviously.
How can you guys bare an ex-SS-soldier as one of your celebrated US special forces hero? :rofl
Just out of curiousity, who started it? Who used area bombing as a weapon of terror in Guernica, and Holland not to mention London, Conventry etc.
Last I saw it was an Allied leader who took Hitler at his word and believed in "peace in our time".
Seems to me that old Dolf and company got it back in spades for what they started. I don't recall the Allies looking for 'living room", or trying to exterminate a race. Total war is what it is. That doesn't include genocide etc.
That you defend the Waffen SS at all is kind of a scary thing to see. You keep wanting to make this about individual soldiers. It isn't. It's about an organization that stood for evil
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Just out of curiousity, who started it? Who used area bombing as a weapon of terror in Guernica, and Holland not to mention London, Conventry etc.
Last I saw it was an Allied leader who took Hitler at his word and believed in "peace in our time".
Seems to me that old Dolf and company got it back in spades for what they started. I don't recall the Allies looking for 'living room", or trying to exterminate a race. Total war is what it is. That doesn't include genocide etc.
That you defend the Waffen SS at all is kind of a scary thing to see. You keep wanting to make this about individual soldiers. It isn't. It's about an organization that stood for evil
Didn't the Japanese drop plague infected rice on Chinese Cities?
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If I can't have a Confederate flag (which has been kidnapped by skinhead punks and the KKK) without being called a racist, then there can't be a Waffen SS squad (haven't read whole thread, anyone point out where they executed Allied prisoners during Battle of the Bulge?)
Malmedy.
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I once was enamoured with the Waffen SS .As a young boy I admired their fighting ability . Then my dad got me a book called Mischling 5th degree . A story about a child who didn't consider herself a jew having a distant ancestor who was jewish . Then he explained to me my mothers maiden name <Asher> . I realised that I would have been funnel smoke in Hitlers Germany . Kind of modified my attitude to say the least . He then got me a book about Mordecai Tal and gave me a new hero to admire .
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bet this makes 15 pages before either skuzzy locks it, or htc boots the squad name.
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I suppose you did not get the difference between Waffen-SS and Algemeine-SS.
Do you ?
"In 1942, for administrative reasons, the guard and administrative staff of all the concentration camps became full members of the Waffen-SS. In addition, to oversee the large administrative burden of an extensive labor camp system, the concentration camps were placed under the command of the SS-Wirtschafts-Verwaltungshauptamt (WVHA). Oswald Pohl commanded the WVHA, while Richard Glücks served as the Inspector of Concentration Camps.
By 1944, with the concentration camps fully integrated with the Waffen-SS and under the control of the WVHA, a standard practice developed to rotate SS members in and out of the camps, based on manpower needs and also to give assignments to wounded Waffen-SS officers and soldiers who could no longer serve in front-line combat duties. This rotation of personnel is the main argument that nearly the entire SS knew of the concentration camps, and what actions were committed within, making the entire organization liable for war crimes and crimes against humanity"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzstaffel#Concentration_camp_service (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzstaffel#Concentration_camp_service)
There is a good book, "The Waffen SS: Hitler's Elite Guard at War, 1939-45" by George H. Stein, (translated in Finnish also, "Waffen-SS, Hitlerin eliittikaarti sodassa 1939-1945")
Elite warriors, brutal murderers - deserving of both titles
"The author presents a clear and concise (without simply rehashing particular atrocities covered in depth elsewhere) description of crimes that can be connected to the Waffen SS, whether directly or indirectly. While crimes can clearly be attributed to battle formations, both combatant- and non-combatant-related, it is also clear from Stein's presentation that a majority of Waffen SS units were not likely involved in such events. This is not to say that Stein presents an apologist view, quite to the contrary - he presents an honest assessment of guilt - the Waffen SS was guilty but it is unfair to claim all units were simply butchers. Yet equally unfair would be a claim that the Waffen SS was simply an army free of guilt. When it comes to connections between the Waffen SS and the holocaust the story is one mostly of semantics. As Stein points out it is beyond doubt that the SS represented the system by which Hitler attempted (and nearly succeeded) to murder all of the European jews and other "Untermensch" (subhumans). It is also clear that many of the units involved were, at least on paper, part of the Waffen SS. Moreover, much of the concentration camp staff turn over was between the camps and the front lines. Yet it is not at all clear that fighting units of the Waffen SS were directly involved in these acts. Thus it becomes an issue of semantics because it depends upon how one defines "Waffen SS". Again this is not to say that Stein presents an apologist view or one of strict and total condemnation. In fact Stein presents a picture in which the facts are presented and the reader is free to define the culprits for themselves. "
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I have read Hilberg's The Destruction of the European Jews among other books, and consider myself pretty knowledgeable about the Einsatzgruppen and other forces of genocide in Hitler's Germany. That said, there's no doubt in my mind that the Nazis get special treatment among perpetrators of crimes against humanity. They get the most press coverage, the most films made about them, the most books written...the list goes on. Let's not forget that the Soviets were great imitators of the Nazis, and yet we allow the displaying of their hammer and sickle on squad insignia as nonchalantly as college students wearing Che t-shirts, even though it is the symbol equivalent of the swastika.
I don't think the name "Waffen SS" is appropriate for a squad in AH, but I'd be fine with a name like "Satan's Minions" or something comparable. :devil
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Its funny because I rarely read general discussion anymore.
Everytime I come here half of the page is covered in complaints about stupid things.
If you have a problem with something (I.E A squad name, Someones handle) dont bring it public,
Just mail HTC about it.
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I think that comparing them as similar is right in line, actually. The people dropping the bombs knew quite well that they were killing people. You don't think the bomber crews were so delusional that they thought they were only destroying the buildings, and not the people inside?
So killing people because they are of a different "race" is somehow worse than killing people for other reasons?
I still fail to see how these are so different. Is one "meaner" than the other? Sorry, I just feel that killing people in droves is bad no matter how it is carried out. I think it is silly to be offended by a group because they killed people, and then not be offended by another group because they killed people in a different way.
Man do you even consider what motivated the guys dropping the bombs versus what the guys putting pistols to peoples heads in this ?
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And that is not true.
Even the so much despised Wikipedia will help you over that misguided statement:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS#Foreign_volunteers_and_conscripts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Waffen_SS_volunteers
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The Holocaust is kind of a side track in this discussion, since we are talking about Waffen-SS, not about the Algemeine-SS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS#War_crimes
Of cource you may want to argue that they were all the same in SS... and all the Germans were the same, etc... maybe even all blond europeans were the same.
Lastly, about the cold blooded intention. Just for the sake of argument, what is the real difference between Evenheim's example of "unit goes to a town and systematically executes every man women and child" and dropping the A-bomb to Hirosima and Nagasaki, or RAF bombing Hamburg and Dresden?
Both are inhumane terror acts. Both aim to demoralize the enemy so that they would not dare to attack against you anymore. The SS troops did just that. E.g. some partisans or underground resistance had killed couple of their men, thus they killed a whole town from that area.
I still claim that some Waffen-SS men did commit atrocities just as some allied bomber units did commit atrocities. BUT not all of them did!
The biggest difference is the connection Waffen-SS, as an organization, had to the despised Nazi party and to their ideology. Still that does not make every Waffen-SS soldier a Nazi.
Hiroshima nagasaki dresden were about ending the war the SS was about ending whole peoples because of hate . pretty big difference to me .
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Its funny because I rarely read general discussion anymore.
Everytime I come here half of the page is covered in complaints about stupid things.
If you have a problem with something (I.E A squad name, Someones handle) dont bring it public,
Just mail HTC about it.
Everytime I come here half of the page is covered in complaints about stupid things.
They might be stupid to some, including yourself. If that is the case, you do not need to participate. To me it wasn't stupid at all. And the email to HTC has already been sent, if you had read the earlier posts.
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Saw a squad long ago "Einsatzgruppen SS". Was promptly removed.
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and...like mentioned...Blut und ehre had to be changed (which i do agree with) so Waffen SS should be dealt with to
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So no one is going to answer my question? We didn't use biological warfare against civilians during WW2, the Japanese did, we didn't play catch using bayonets on babies like the japanese did. I recall the Germans wiping out a whole town because ONE person helped out the British and then left. We didn't do that, there's still a HUGE difference between what we did, and they did.
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So no one is going to answer my question? We didn't use biological warfare against civilians during WW2, the Japanese did, we didn't play catch using bayonets on babies like the japanese did. I recall the Germans wiping out a whole town because ONE person helped out the British and then left. We didn't do that, there's still a HUGE difference between what we did, and they did.
we did fire bomb civillians, some estimate one million died in one night, all civillians. 15.8 square miles were burned. 1.5 million people lived in that area. I do not believe this was necessary.
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I severly doubt 1 million civilians were killed in 1 night. The worst I know of was something like 250,000. If we invaded Japan, we would have had to kill EVERY single person there. You've seen the videos of the civilians jumping off of cliffs, the crazy banzai charges. We'd have to kil 95% of the population in Japan. The Firebombing raids to scare them was needed.
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we did fire bomb civillians, some estimate one million died in one night, all civillians. 15.8 square miles were burned. 1.5 million people lived in that area. I do not believe this was necessary.
Show me your source. I think you tripped there.
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I severly doubt 1 million civilians were killed in 1 night. The worst I know of was something like 250,000. If we invaded Japan, we would have had to kill EVERY single person there. You've seen the videos of the civilians jumping off of cliffs, the crazy banzai charges. We'd have to kil 95% of the population in Japan. The Firebombing raids to scare them was needed.
I do not think killing innocent civilians is at all needed in any war.
It is unacceptable regardless.
However there are different scenarios as to ways in which this was not done, and the reasons behind that is what we are debating.
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I do not think killing innocent civilians is at all needed in any war.
It is unacceptable regardless.
However there are different scenarios as to ways in which this was not done, and the reasons behind that is what we are debating.
That viewpoint was why the Vietnam war meandered on for a decade, and the exponentially larger WW2 was over in 4 years. If you lived in Hanoi, you'd scarcely have noticed for the first 8=odd years that there WAS a war. In ww2 we bombed the crap out of everything--if there was a factory that built something important within a town of 500,000, we flattened said town with waves of Lancs by night and B17's/B24's by day until said factory was poofers. War can't be an an antiseptic event. (Anyone remember thing lobbing missiles into an empty factory at 3am, to minimize civilian casualties, so Clinton could 'make a point'?)
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It does not bother me if someone has or wanted to make a Waffen SS squad for the game.
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It does not bother me if someone has or wanted to make a Waffen SS squad for the game.
Likely squeakers, at any rate
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I severly doubt 1 million civilians were killed in 1 night. The worst I know of was something like 250,000. If we invaded Japan, we would have had to kill EVERY single person there. You've seen the videos of the civilians jumping off of cliffs, the crazy banzai charges. We'd have to kil 95% of the population in Japan. The Firebombing raids to scare them was needed.
Killing innocent people to scare others? This sounds familiar.
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Show me your source.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Selden March 10th, 1945
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Man, Pearl Harbor get's bombed, Hitler declares war on the United States, and we're as bad as the SS. :rolleyes:
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The people in this game are getting a bit too PC.
Perhaps I should start a squad called:
Cartoon Meanies
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we did fire bomb civillians, some estimate one million died in one night, all civillians. 15.8 square miles were burned. 1.5 million people lived in that area. I do not believe this was necessary.
Mark, I believe you are referring to the March 9–10 Tokyo Fire Raid. Approx. 16 sq. miles were torched with 100,000 deaths and around 250,000 homes destroyed. 25% of Tokyo was destroyed overnight.
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Everytime I come here half of the page is covered in complaints about stupid things.
They might be stupid to some, including yourself. If that is the case, you do not need to participate. To me it wasn't stupid at all. And the email to HTC has already been sent, if you had read the earlier posts.
Yes I have been reading earlier posts, from page one.
But why do you feel the need to make tis pucblic all it takes is one email, not a 10 page thread.
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this is rediculous. I am glad you guys have nothing else to worry about other than a computer game squadron name.
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this is rediculous. I am glad you guys have nothing else to worry about other than a computer game squadron name.
Valid point. Far better to argue whether the F6F was really 8 mph faster than people say it was.
- oldman
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Mark, I believe you are referring to the March 9–10 Tokyo Fire Raid. Approx. 16 sq. miles were torched with 100,000 deaths and around 250,000 homes destroyed. 25% of Tokyo was destroyed overnight.
yes, that is it. 100,000 deaths I believe is an underestimate. 1.5 million people lived within those 16 sq miles. Nonetheless, it was not a good thing to do.
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Its amazing how "sensitive" people are. Appears the liberal agenda is working well. As I see it. Someone who is "sensitive" got offended cause someone has a name associated with the SS and now said "sensitive" person is going to act like a hillbilly and paint their grievance all over the watertower. So what. If you want to be associated with scum, why should we stop them? Makes it rather easy to spot when their name clearly advertises their position.
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(with much thanks to the book Flyboys)
"In the summer of 1945, the army air force issued an astonishing document. It was a map of Japan with the cities listed that General LeMay had scorched. It detailed the percentage of each city burned and compared each city in size to an American city.
Here's a sampling:
Kawasaki 35% = Portland
Shimizu 42% = San Jose
Hiratsuka 46% = Battle Creek
Toyohashi 67% = Tulsa
Hammatsu 60% = Hartford
Kofu 78% = South Bend
Hitachi 72% = Little Rock
Tokyo 40% = New York
Yokohama 57% = Cleveland
Chiba 41% = Savannah
Nagoya 40% = Los Angeles
Gifu 69% = Des Moins
Takahatsu 67% = Knoxville
Himeji 49% = Peoria
Kobe 55% = Baltimore
Osaka 35% = Chicago
Shimonoseki 37% =San Diego
Moji 24% = Spokane
Nagaoka 55% = Madison
The percenteges refer not to area bombed or area damaged but to area obliterated, gone, burned, turned to ash. This wasn't artillery damage in which one wall crumbled and the family huddled in another room. These percentages referred to wastelands - flat, desolate ash deserts."
Bear in mind that this was before the Aug. drop of the first atomic bomb on Hiroshima, and we continued to fire bomb Japan. We ended up destroying @ 20% of the housing in Japan and close to 15,000,000 Japanese civilians were rendered homeless.
I look at the above damage %'s and try to imagine what we did in Japan. We ended up destroying 51% of Tokyo and I try to imagine over half of New York City being burned to ash. 57% of Cleveland gone. I am staggered by those percenteges.
Granted, we DID drop leaflets and warn the Japanese civilians, but I know that I wouldn't want to be the person that authorized those air raids over Japan.
(this wiki article shows the % destroyed of all the various cities in Japan from our bombing)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_II#United_States_strategic_bombing_of_Japan
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I actually find it quite distasteful to equate, in anyway, what was done to the Jews to the bombings of civilians by the allies.
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I actually find it quite distasteful to equate, in anyway, what was done to the Jews to the bombings of civilians by the allies.
Well, you dont have to like the equation. Fact remain, someone made a choice and people died as a result of it.
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Well, you dont have to like the equation. Fact remain, someone made a choice and people died as a result of it.
Well, I think that the motivations should be part of the equation. I don't believe that the commanders who ordered bombing civilian areas were "evil" people. I believe that they were attempting to end a bloody war as quickly as possible. On the other side of that, what was done to the Jews by the Nazis is difficult to view as anything other then "evil".
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Guys,
Some things have more impact on people than others.
War is an evil, cruel business, ask anyone who's ever been involved in war and they'll tell you straight up.
This planet has extreme diversity - cultural, political, idealogical, and religious. In a perfect world, everyone would play nice and we'd all hold everyone else's ideals, culture, politics, and religion with equal regard. Unfortunately, that's not the case, and we start wars to solve those differences, be it 'good wars' or 'bad wars'. I will let you look back on history and determine which were good and which were bad.
In each of those wars, there are winners, losers, and countless who suffer in one way, shape, or form. In times of war, people, including civilians, die. People dying in POW or concentration camps suffer the same fate as people who die in fire raids, from roadside bombs, or any other variety of senseless killing that we, as humans, do. That's not to say that any one is worse than any other - they are all equally terrible. But the end result, sadly, is that people die, both combatants and civilians, innocent and guilty.
We can look back on history and cite hundreds of examples of the lingering feelings people have towards their opponents...at one time, we hated the British, the Germans, the Italians, the Japanese, and now they're allies. At one time the Russians hated the Japanese, the French hated the British, the Spanish hated the French AND the English. And now, we get along, for the most part.
There is a fine line between being a military historian/enthusiast and being a war-monger, especially in the eyes of individuals who do not hold the same interests as you.
As a student of military history, I am fascinated by the equipment, the technology, and the art of war, but I abhor killing and violence. Yes, they tend to go hand-in-hand, but the beauty of being a historian is that you study the past in an effort to educate the present, to preserve the future.
This is game...no one gets killed, maimed, or scarred emotionally like actual soldiers and civilians do in time of war. When we auger in with one wing shot off, we respawn and start over...our next of kin doesn't get a telegram or a visit from an Army chaplain.
During times of war, every country can be accused of doing something that's unjust, be it an atomic bomb, fire bombing, killing civilans, genocide, or any number of things that we as a culture have deemed outside of the rules of gentlemanly combat.
Glorifying those people that perpetrated those crimes does no one any good, in fact, it brings a negative light onto all of us, even those of us who simply like to fly virtual airplanes and be armchair generals.
I hope that people will read this and understand that I'm not trying to be political, the moral majority, or anything like that. I'm hoping that people will read this and understand that everything we do, either as a nation or a single individual, has an effect on someone, somewhere. It could be an all-out war fought by nations, or it could be acting like a complete arse here on the forum and insulting someone, that causes someone else to be hurt, offended, or belittled.
This is HTC's show. They make the rules, we only rent space here. It's not a democracy, it's an autonomy, and its there's and there's alone.
Being obnoxious, arrogant, or just plain ignorant, serves no one. Making enemies doesn't make you a better person, neither does being a troll, or feeding the trolls. Everyone is a tough-guy when he's behind a keyboard and anonymous. But one of these days, we're going to hear about a squeeker-troll somewhere ticking off the wrong person, and it's going to be all over the news. Think about it...imagine what could happen if you get the wrong person mad at you.
Ok, I'm off my soap-box. Hope I didn't tick anyone off. Chances are I did...
Jeff
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Well, I think that the motivations should be part of the equation. I don't believe that the commanders who ordered bombing civilian areas were "evil" people. I believe that they were attempting to end a bloody war as quickly as possible. On the other side of that, what was done to the Jews by the Nazis is difficult to view as anything other then "evil".
Philosophical Question? What is worse. The bad man who kills people or the good man who unintentionally kills "innocent" people in a bid to defeat the bad man?
The pathway to hell is paved in good intentions.
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The pathway to hell is paved in good intentions.
AMEN :salute
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Well, I think that the motivations should be part of the equation. I don't believe that the commanders who ordered bombing civilian areas were "evil" people. I believe that they were attempting to end a bloody war as quickly as possible. On the other side of that, what was done to the Jews by the Nazis is difficult to view as anything other then "evil".
Ever read Eichmann in Jerusalem by Hannah Arendt?
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Philosophical Question? What is worse. The bad man who kills people or the good man who unintentionally kills "innocent" people in a bid to defeat the bad man?
The pathway to hell is paved in good intentions.
The good man was not unintentionally killing innocent people to defeat the bad man. It was quite intentional.
On the other side of that, what was done to the Jews by the Nazis is difficult to view as anything other then "evil".
Of course it is from your POV. And to a good portion of the German population of the time, that viewpoint is probably vice-versa.
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(with much thanks to the book Flyboys)
"In the summer of 1945, the army air force issued an astonishing document. It was a map of Japan with the cities listed that General LeMay had scorched. It detailed the percentage of each city burned and compared each city in size to an American city.
Here's a sampling:
Kawasaki 35% = Portland
Shimizu 42% = San Jose
Hiratsuka 46% = Battle Creek
Toyohashi 67% = Tulsa
Hammatsu 60% = Hartford
Kofu 78% = South Bend
Hitachi 72% = Little Rock
Tokyo 40% = New York
Yokohama 57% = Cleveland
Chiba 41% = Savannah
Nagoya 40% = Los Angeles
Gifu 69% = Des Moins
Takahatsu 67% = Knoxville
Himeji 49% = Peoria
Kobe 55% = Baltimore
Osaka 35% = Chicago
Shimonoseki 37% =San Diego
Moji 24% = Spokane
Nagaoka 55% = Madison
The percenteges refer not to area bombed or area damaged but to area obliterated, gone, burned, turned to ash. This wasn't artillery damage in which one wall crumbled and the family huddled in another room. These percentages referred to wastelands - flat, desolate ash deserts."
Bear in mind that this was before the Aug. drop of the first atomic bomb on Hiroshima, and we continued to fire bomb Japan. We ended up destroying @ 20% of the housing in Japan and close to 15,000,000 Japanese civilians were rendered homeless.
I look at the above damage %'s and try to imagine what we did in Japan. We ended up destroying 51% of Tokyo and I try to imagine over half of New York City being burned to ash. 57% of Cleveland gone. I am staggered by those percenteges.
Granted, we DID drop leaflets and warn the Japanese civilians, but I know that I wouldn't want to be the person that authorized those air raids over Japan.
(this wiki article shows the % destroyed of all the various cities in Japan from our bombing)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_II#United_States_strategic_bombing_of_Japan
The Japanese leadership is at fault for these figures. They put the events in motion the moment the first bomb fell on Pearl Harbor.
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The Japanese leadership is at fault for these figures. They put the events in motion the moment the first bomb fell on Pearl Harbor.
And the Japanese citizens, who, do to the fact that Japan was a monarchy had absolutely no push in the matter, should have payed for it?
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And the Japanese citizens, who, do to the fact that Japan was a monarchy had absolutely no push in the matter, should have payed for it?
Interesting point. So, we either had to surrender, or land a group of crack commandos to assassinate the Emperor and his henchmen.
- oldman
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Well, I think that the motivations should be part of the equation. I don't believe that the commanders who ordered bombing civilian areas were "evil" people. I believe that they were attempting to end a bloody war as quickly as possible. On the other side of that, what was done to the Jews by the Nazis is difficult to view as anything other then "evil".
LeMay was an evil puke.
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Interesting point. So, we either had to surrender, or land a group of crack commandos to assassinate the Emperor and his henchmen.
- oldman
I never condemned the actions taken against the Empire of Japan to defeat it. However, I think the stance that we 'punished' it by killing innocent civilians is... wrong.
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(with much thanks to the book Flyboys)
"In the summer of 1945, the army air force issued an astonishing document. It was a map of Japan with the cities listed that General LeMay had scorched. It detailed the percentage of each city burned and compared each city in size to an American city.
Here's a sampling:
Kawasaki 35% = Portland
Shimizu 42% = San Jose
Hiratsuka 46% = Battle Creek
Toyohashi 67% = Tulsa
Hammatsu 60% = Hartford
Kofu 78% = South Bend
Hitachi 72% = Little Rock
Tokyo 40% = New York
Yokohama 57% = Cleveland
Chiba 41% = Savannah
Nagoya 40% = Los Angeles
Gifu 69% = Des Moins
Takahatsu 67% = Knoxville
Himeji 49% = Peoria
Kobe 55% = Baltimore
Osaka 35% = Chicago
Shimonoseki 37% =San Diego
Moji 24% = Spokane
Nagaoka 55% = Madison
The percenteges refer not to area bombed or area damaged but to area obliterated, gone, burned, turned to ash. This wasn't artillery damage in which one wall crumbled and the family huddled in another room. These percentages referred to wastelands - flat, desolate ash deserts."
Bear in mind that this was before the Aug. drop of the first atomic bomb on Hiroshima, and we continued to fire bomb Japan. We ended up destroying @ 20% of the housing in Japan and close to 15,000,000 Japanese civilians were rendered homeless.
I look at the above damage %'s and try to imagine what we did in Japan. We ended up destroying 51% of Tokyo and I try to imagine over half of New York City being burned to ash. 57% of Cleveland gone. I am staggered by those percenteges.
Granted, we DID drop leaflets and warn the Japanese civilians, but I know that I wouldn't want to be the person that authorized those air raids over Japan.
(this wiki article shows the % destroyed of all the various cities in Japan from our bombing)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_II#United_States_strategic_bombing_of_Japan
Actually, there were several cities that were untouched. This was deliberate, so that the US would know how much a city would be affected by an Atomic bomb.
"Last Great Victory" goes into more detail than Flyboys did. Much more and it chronicles every day from V-E Day to V-J Day and is a damn good read.
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Well, you dont have to like the equation. Fact remain, someone made a choice and people died as a result of it.
and as much as i would never want to have to make such a choice, it was probablyt he only sensible choice back then...given the technology available.......
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The Japanese leadership is at fault for these figures. They put the events in motion the moment the first bomb fell on Pearl Harbor.
:aok
wow! someone actually realizes that?
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And the Japanese citizens, who, do to the fact that Japan was a monarchy had absolutely no push in the matter, should have payed for it?
You should perhaps ask that question to the millions of Americans who were thrust into a war they did not want by the japs.
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You should perhaps ask that question to the millions of Americans who were thrust into a war they did not want by the japs.
Jap monarchy, I think is what he was saying. I wonder what the japanese people were told before the start of the war.
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I never condemned the actions taken against the Empire of Japan to defeat it. However, I think the stance that we 'punished' it by killing innocent civilians is... wrong.
I think attacking a Naval port without a declaration is war is wrong.
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not every german was a nazi.... remember that
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I never condemned the actions taken against the Empire of Japan to defeat it. However, I think the stance that we 'punished' it by killing innocent civilians is... wrong.
Agreed. The notion of laying waste after you've already won is a bad one. But that isn't what we did, of course.
- oldman
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I think attacking a Naval port without a declaration is war is wrong.
Two wrongs don't make a right. What mattered once engaged in war was to secure a satisfactory outcome. With Nazi Germany pwned, and Japan reduced to defending its own land, it was just a matter of finding the quickest way to end the war. My 2 yens.
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I think attacking a Naval port without a declaration is war is wrong.
It is a shame that our legislature has abnegated the same responsibility.
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Two wrongs don't make a right. What mattered once engaged in war was to secure a satisfactory outcome. With Nazi Germany pwned, and Japan reduced to defending its own land, it was just a matter of finding the quickest way to end the war. My 2 yens.
Yep, and time ment lives. The quick way was life saving....turned out like that.
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It is a shame that our legislature has abnegated the same responsibility.
Realy?
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When was the last time that congress voted to officially declare war? WWII. I had to check to make sure we didn't declare war for the korean war, and we didn't. Lots and lots of congressional authorizations, but it's a way for congress to cover its bellybutton so that when %#*! goes wrong they can blame someone else.
What can I say, it's written in the constitution that congress has the power to declare war. This goes along with our signing up for all sorts of treaties that we break time and time again. We ought not to sign them unless we plan to honor them. Intentionally bombing civilians is a great example of this.
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When was the last time that congress voted to officially declare war? WWII. I had to check to make sure we didn't declare war for the korean war, and we didn't. Lots and lots of congressional authorizations, but it's a way for congress to cover its bellybutton so that when %#*! goes wrong they can blame someone else.
What can I say, it's written in the constitution that congress has the power to declare war. This goes along with our signing up for all sorts of treaties that we break time and time again. We ought not to sign them unless we plan to honor them. Intentionally bombing civilians is a great example of this.
I wasnt aware you can declare war on a faction or guerilla force.... which has been the situation since korea... and im not sure if your congress voted to, but Bush 2 did declare war on iraq, as he did on terrorism(broad umbrella statement but still liable as a declaration).
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I wasnt aware you can declare war on a faction or guerilla force.... which has been the situation since korea... and im not sure if your congress voted to, but Bush 2 did declare war on iraq, as he did on terrorism(broad umbrella statement but still liable as a declaration).
Bush declaring war is not a declaration of war because the constitution does not give him that institutional power.
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I let you guess as to my opinion...
I hold the same opinion... If WaffenSS is OK, then would KKKnights be acceptable also?
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When was the last time that congress voted to officially declare war? WWII. I had to check to make sure we didn't declare war for the korean war, and we didn't. Lots and lots of congressional authorizations, but it's a way for congress to cover its bellybutton so that when %#*! goes wrong they can blame someone else.
What can I say, it's written in the constitution that congress has the power to declare war. This goes along with our signing up for all sorts of treaties that we break time and time again. We ought not to sign them unless we plan to honor them. Intentionally bombing civilians is a great example of this.
True, but congress did authorize the use of military force. Kinda like saying " If you don't smarten up, we'll come and do it for you.". Not like we didn't warn em. But I'm sure you can find more fault with this country. :aok
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The Japanese leadership is at fault for these figures. They put the events in motion the moment the first bomb fell on Pearl Harbor.
Very true statement.
Solution to ALL conflicts/wars....remove the politicians from BOTH/ALL sides..your choice of methods. :D
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Off subject: As a veteran of war, I can tell the readers that there is no horror that compares to visiting a battlefield 4-6 hours after the shooting has ceased, or living through a firefight or Artillery barrage. With that said, it amazes me that so many people want to blame the United States for all of the damage done to German and Japanese cities during the strategic bombing campaigns of WW2. Please bear in mind that the United States was perfectly content to sit out WW2 as a neutral. Japan Attacked (then declared war 15 minutes later), and Germany declared war on the United States the next day. It was the Axis powers that first started bombing cities, not the allies.
I disagree with the concept of area bombing that was practiced by RAF Bomber Command and the USAAF in the Pacific, because (with 20/20 hindsight) that tactic was ineffective at significantly reducing the output of war materials. Additionally the argument that area bombing would demoralize the populace was simply incorrect and instead had the opposite effect. Also, the number of civilian casualties from area bombing was, in my view, unacceptable.
Back to the WaffenSS. There were WaffenSS military units that fought with honor and did not partake in war crimes, but the vast majority of the organization stains the record of these few... When blaming the German people for bringing the Nazi Party to power it is helpful to remember that the NSDAP never won a majority of seats in the Riechstag! Also in the Presidential Election runoff in 1932 almost 2/3 of the German electorate voted against Hitler. Hitler's seized power and outlawed his political opposition once he was appointed Reich's Chancellor in a coalition Government. Contrast this with the US that elected Roosevelt that same year and with the UK which selects it's prime Minister from the Majority Party in free elections. In Japan and the USSR the opposite was in effect with a dictatorial monarchy and a socialist dictatorship respectively.
My Conclusion is that the Allies were the good guys! There were horrors committed by all warring parties, but only in the axis countries (and the USSR) were the enslavement and destruction of entire populations and/or races condoned and even welcomed at a government level.
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I disagree with the concept of area bombing that was practiced by RAF Bomber Command and the USAAF in the Pacific, because (with 20/20 hindsight) that tactic was ineffective at significantly reducing the output of war materials. Additionally the argument that area bombing would demoralize the populace was simply incorrect and instead had the opposite effect. Also, the number of civilian casualties from area bombing was, in my view, unacceptable.
Well people forget that bombing then isn't like bombing now. Any bombing done from alt was area bombing. And yes..yes fire bombing is a whole 'nother thing.
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*sigh*
Yeah, the SS were not a nice bunch, but the Soviets had units that commited far more attrocities and yet people tend to forget (or never know) them. Oh, and remember our allies the Nationalist Chinese (heck, even the Red Chinese)??? Yeah, do some research. Both of those make the SS look like child's play.
If a group of guys were to use the "SS" in their name, oh well. Move on to other more important things and stop WANTING ti be insulted. Friggin whiners.
Oh, and dont belittle the professionalism these soldiers displayed on the battlefield. The lot of them were awesome. They were far more diciplined and porfessional than most of the allied troop units. Leave their political association aside and take a moment to see what they accomplished. Disclaimer: I'm not defending the atrocities they committed.
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Well people forget that bombing then isn't like bombing now. Any bombing done from alt was area bombing. And yes..yes fire bombing is a whole 'nother thing.
The US 8th Air Force at least ATTEMPTED to make daylight precision bombing work. Most targets were vital military targets. It is true that bombing accuracy was no where near the level today's munitions offer. That's why it took a wing of B-17s to do what ONE JDAM equipped F-15E could do in terms of destroying a specific target. I lived in Fulda Germany in the early 90s and saw a museum exhibit about the bombing of Fulda. It has a large marshalling yard and a tire plant near the center of town. It was bombed twice by the USAAF in late 1944. there was some bomb damage in the center of town (I counted 10-12 500lb. bomb craters in the inner city based on the photographs in the exhibit) but not nearly the level it would have been if the RAF had done an area bombing raid at night. Overall the post war US Strategic Bombing survey gives positive but mixed (usually due to wind/weather) results to the bombing accuracy of the 8th Air Force efforts over Europe.
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True, but congress did authorize the use of military force. Kinda like saying " If you don't smarten up, we'll come and do it for you.". Not like we didn't warn em. But I'm sure you can find more fault with this country. :aok
Defending and upholding the constitution is the highest duty of elected office.
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*sigh*
Both of those make the SS look like child's play.
Stupid squeakers
Child play:
The Holocaust took the lives of between 5.1 to 6.0 million Jews, 130,000 to 500,000 Gypsies, 150,000 to 200,000 handicapped persons, 2.6 to 3 million Soviet prisoners of war, 1.8 to 1.9 million Poles, 4.5 to 8.2 million Soviet civilians and 160,000 Germans.
That's what SS was about and what Waffen SS was fighting for.
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*sigh*
some irrelevant text here
Yeah, do some research :huh
Friggin whiners. :O
Both of those make the SS look like child's play. :rolleyes:
The lot of them were awesome. + Disclaimer: I'm not defending the atrocities they committed. :rolleyes:
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as a sidenote its still in game as of last night.
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*sigh*
Yeah, the SS were not a nice bunch, but the Soviets had units that commited far more attrocities and yet people tend to forget (or never know) them. Oh, and remember our allies the Nationalist Chinese (heck, even the Red Chinese)??? Yeah, do some research. Both of those make the SS look like child's play.
If a group of guys were to use the "SS" in their name, oh well. Move on to other more important things and stop WANTING ti be insulted. Friggin whiners.
Oh, and dont belittle the professionalism these soldiers displayed on the battlefield. The lot of them were awesome. They were far more diciplined and porfessional than most of the allied troop units. Leave their political association aside and take a moment to see what they accomplished. Disclaimer: I'm not defending the atrocities they committed.
You base this on what? Fanaticism and professionalism are two different things. This thread made me take "Soldiers of Destruction" of the shelf. It's the history of the Totenkopf Division 1933-45. A very complete history and doesn't pull any punches. Just read through the part where 100 men of the British 2nd Royal Norfolk held up Totenkopf during the Battle of France 1940. After being overrun by superior firepower and numbers the survivors surrendered. They were promptly pushed in to a wall farm yard, put against the wall and machine gunned while 100s of Totenkopf soldiers watch. Those soldiers then went through the bodies bayoneting them to make sure they were dead. 2 of the 100 survived under the bodies somehow and were picked up by following Whermacht soldiers who kept them alive to be POWs.
That they looked 'kewl' and had 'kewl' stuff, doesn't change what they were, and trust me I went through that stage where I thought they were 'kewl'. I built lots of 1/35th German armor and equipment back when I was in high school, and remember trying to get the neato SS camoflage tunics and helmet covers just right, etc etc.
Seperate the two things though. Fanatical devotion to Hitler, under a direct line of authority from Hitler to Himmler on down, never changed throughout the war. They weren't just regular soldiers of the German Army.
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You base this on what? Fanaticism and professionalism are two different things. This thread made me take "Soldiers of Destruction" of the shelf. It's the history of the Totenkopf Division 1933-45. A very complete history and doesn't pull any punches. Just read through the part where 100 men of the British 2nd Royal Norfolk held up Totenkopf during the Battle of France 1940. After being overrun by superior firepower and numbers the survivors surrendered. They were promptly pushed in to a wall farm yard, put against the wall and machine gunned while 100s of Totenkopf soldiers watch. Those soldiers then went through the bodies bayoneting them to make sure they were dead. 2 of the 100 survived under the bodies somehow and were picked up by following Whermacht soldiers who kept them alive to be POWs.
That they looked 'kewl' and had 'kewl' stuff, doesn't change what they were, and trust me I went through that stage where I thought they were 'kewl'. I built lots of 1/35th German armor and equipment back when I was in high school, and remember trying to get the neato SS camoflage tunics and helmet covers just right, etc etc.
Seperate the two things though. Fanatical devotion to Hitler, under a direct line of authority from Hitler to Himmler on down, never changed throughout the war. They weren't just regular soldiers of the German Army.
Great post.
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perate the two things though. Fanatical devotion to Hitler, under a direct line of authority from Hitler to Himmler on down, never changed throughout the war. They weren't just regular soldiers of the German Army.
They were never "regular soldiers of the German army". In fact the story of the SS is quite a strange one. Even still there are many inaccuracies recorded by history.
I understand Evenhaims reaction when the SS are mentioned. At this time I feel I must remind all that the seeds of anti semitism were spread thruout Europe at the time of the war. In many occupied countries the Germans hardly even needed to prod the conqured Govt.'s to hunt their own Jews down for "special treatment". How do you feel about nameing a AH squadron a French name? Well the French Vichy Govt., and Police, hunted down and robbed French Jews with a particular zeal. How about the Swiss? The Swiss Govt. could be called the bankers of the Final Solution because they were all to willing to launder the wealth stolen from Europes jews.
Norway, the Baltics, the Vatican and Catholic church, Romania, Hungary, Croaitia, Serbia, the Ukraine. There is so much Jewish and Roma blood on so many European hands it is childish to only blame the SS for the Holocaust.
Are there any squads named after the German army? Well the German army fought a ruthless racial war of extermination on the eastern front. From the beginning they were told by Hitler they were fighting against Jewish Bolshivism, were to be utterly ruthless, and in turn they responded with great zeal. They turned over Jews and other "inferiors" to the Einsatzgruppen by the Tens of thousands, had no mercy for Russian POWs, and even participated in ghetto liquidations. In fact it could be said that some German army units had more genocidal blood on their hands then many SS combat units. Besides, after July 1944, the army and other armed forces took the same personal oath to Hitler that the SS did.
Its just simplistic to single out the SS. There was just to much guilt to go around.
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How do you feel about nameing a AH squadron a French name? Well the French Vichy Govt., and Police, hunted down and robbed French Jews with a particular zeal.
How many Escadrille manned concentration camps were there exactly?
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They were never "regular soldiers of the German army". In fact the story of the SS is quite a strange one. Even still there are many inaccuracies recorded by history.
I understand Evenhaims reaction when the SS are mentioned. At this time I feel I must remind all that the seeds of anti semitism were spread thruout Europe at the time of the war. In many occupied countries the Germans hardly even needed to prod the conqured Govt.'s to hunt their own Jews down for "special treatment". How do you feel about nameing a AH squadron a French name? Well the French Vichy Govt., and Police, hunted down and robbed French Jews with a particular zeal. How about the Swiss? The Swiss Govt. could be called the bankers of the Final Solution because they were all to willing to launder the wealth stolen from Europes jews.
Norway, the Baltics, the Vatican and Catholic church, Romania, Hungary, Croaitia, Serbia, the Ukraine. There is so much Jewish and Roma blood on so many European hands it is childish to only blame the SS for the Holocaust.
Are there any squads named after the German army? Well the German army fought a ruthless racial war of extermination on the eastern front. From the beginning they were told by Hitler they were fighting against Jewish Bolshivism, were to be utterly ruthless, and in turn they responded with great zeal. They turned over Jews and other "inferiors" to the Einsatzgruppen by the Tens of thousands, had no mercy for Russian POWs, and even participated in ghetto liquidations. In fact it could be said that some German army units had more genocidal blood on their hands then many SS combat units. Besides, after July 1944, the army and other armed forces took the same personal oath to Hitler that the SS did.
Its just simplistic to single out the SS. There was just to much guilt to go around.
Once I actually read some scholarly history books on the subject, it became clear to me that the eastern front invasion was more about liquidating jews than actually accomplishing military objectives, even if a lot of the wehrmacht and other regular military didn't realize it. Like you say, other countries were eager to participate in the liquidation, especially Romania: their secret police engaged in murdering rampages that even horrified the Nazis.
As for shooting prisoners, you guys are getting all pc here. Shooting prisoners was commonplace in WW1, and there's a good argument that half the reason German soldiers started surrendering in 1918 was that the Brits had finally stopped shooting surrendering soldiers. Deplorable as it is, shooting prisoners has nothing to do with political affiliation, and far more to do with the psychology of warfare and the willingness of officers to look the other way.
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Well people forget that bombing then isn't like bombing now. Any bombing done from alt was area bombing. And yes..yes fire bombing is a whole 'nother thing.
Same pig with new lipstick.
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How many Escadrille manned concentration camps were there exactly?
They didnt have the Jews long enough to setup concentration camps. They were turned over to the Nazis right away for "resettlement" in the east.
Course it was par for the course. The French have a long history of genocide. Either taking part or supporting it. In 1945 they slaughtered tens of thousands of Algerians and a few years later did the same in Madagascar. Cameron and Senegal were other African colonies harshly repressed by French colonial forces after WW-ll. And for the cherry on the cake type "France and Rwanda genocide" into a search engine and see what pops up.
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Some of you are so blinded by populist media reports and Time-Life picture books on WWII that you have failed to take even a peek at what the Soviets and Chinese did. I didnt say that the SS were innocent and I certainly did NOT defend them, I said what they did was far less than others comparatively but due to the attention given to the Nazis as THEE evil in the world a blind eye was turned towards the rest of the nation states that committed far worse (at least numerically, isnt it all about the numbers?) atrocities. Keep in mind that it was the Nazi party leaders that handed down those policies and not imply battlefield justice.
Do some legit research on what the Soviets did in Ukraine and its own political prisoners, find the actual numbers of how many were slaughtered and compare. Do some legit research on what the Nationalist Chinese did to the peasants who supported the Red Chinese (and visa-versa) and find some raw numbers on how many were killed, the numbers are stagering. The 6 million dead Jews and an estimated 2 million+ dead gypsies, commies, political prisoners, handicapped, gays, partisans, non German civilians (via the Germans), etc., do not equal the 21+ million dead Chinese, Ukrainians, and other noncombatants (granted, the Ukrainians were slaughtered just prior to German-Soviet WWII hostilities but it fits within the time frame of "The Final Solution") via the Soviets and Chinese. Horrific, yes. All the way around. Were atrocities singular to the SS? No, not hardly. Keep in mind that it just wasnt the SS that carried out the will of the Nazi party leaders, the Wehrmacht did it fair share of raping, pillaging, and killing of noncombatants. The worst, at least by ratio of troop to death of noncombatant were the Siberians. They killed everything in their way, even Russian civilians.
Bah... but dont listen to me. I dont have a degree in WWII or anything. I didnt spend hours and hours and years and years of reading academic sources and writing research papers for graduate classes and lecturing to undergrads on almost every aspect of WWII (from the individual infantry weapons used, to squad tactics, to campaigns, to world politics, and even our very own aircraft in AH2). I dont have over 3 dozen testimonies from interviews conducted by me of WWII vets from 6 different countries (US, Canada, UK, Germany, Poland, and Egypt). I have no idea what I am speaking about. I guess I need to read up on some more Time-Life picture books. Am I an expert? Nah, I'll stop short of saying so. But I will say my knowledge base if far greater than most here.
Yeah, I may have come across a bit harsh by calling some of contributors of this thread "friggin whiners" for being "offended" by a unit calling themselves "SS", but I get a bit frustrated when so many times the big picture is not known by those quick on the draw to condemn. The picture is far bigger than most of us realize. ;)
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You base this on what? Fanaticism and professionalism are two different things. This thread made me take "Soldiers of Destruction" of the shelf. It's the history of the Totenkopf Division 1933-45. A very complete history and doesn't pull any punches. Just read through the part where 100 men of the British 2nd Royal Norfolk held up Totenkopf during the Battle of France 1940. After being overrun by superior firepower and numbers the survivors surrendered. They were promptly pushed in to a wall farm yard, put against the wall and machine gunned while 100s of Totenkopf soldiers watch. Those soldiers then went through the bodies bayoneting them to make sure they were dead. 2 of the 100 survived under the bodies somehow and were picked up by following Whermacht soldiers who kept them alive to be POWs.
That they looked 'kewl' and had 'kewl' stuff, doesn't change what they were, and trust me I went through that stage where I thought they were 'kewl'. I built lots of 1/35th German armor and equipment back when I was in high school, and remember trying to get the neato SS camoflage tunics and helmet covers just right, etc etc.
Seperate the two things though. Fanatical devotion to Hitler, under a direct line of authority from Hitler to Himmler on down, never changed throughout the war. They weren't just regular soldiers of the German Army.
"Kewl"? I didnt make one mention of their uniforms or patches. I certainly dont own or desire to own one bit of "SS" material. The only 3 items I own with any Nazi symbols are a k98 rifle, a P38, and some 8mm Mauser ammo. That is it. I have absolutely have no more admiration of SS uniforms than I do British paras, Scottish infantry, ANZAC, or any other unit. I'm not quite sure why you gathered that impression. Oh... and btw, I never did get into the model craze. ;)
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Bah... but dont listen to me. I dont have a degree in WWII or anything. I didnt spend hours and hours and years and years of reading academic sources and writing research papers for graduate classes and lecturing to undergrads on almost every aspect of WWII (from the individual infantry weapons used, to squad tactics, to campaigns, to world politics, and even our very own aircraft in AH2). I dont have over 3 dozen testimonies from interviews conducted by me of WWII vets from 6 different countries (US, Canada, UK, Germany, Poland, and Egypt). I have no idea what I am speaking about. I guess I need to read up on some more Time-Life picture books. Am I an expert? Nah, I'll stop short of saying so. But I will say my knowledge base if far greater than most here.
Yeah, I may have come across a bit harsh by calling some of contributors of this thread "friggin whiners" for being "offended" by a unit calling themselves "SS", but I get a bit frustrated when so many times the big picture is not known by those quick on the draw to condemn. The picture is far bigger than most of us realize. ;)
I'm guessing that this "friggen whiner" has spent as much time as yourself if not more on WW2, the vets and everything else. So lets not throw knowledge base or lack thereof into the discussion.
As for the "kewl" comment, it wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. it was an acknowledgement of the fascination that the German military can have and saying that 30 some years ago I was thinking the Waffen SS etc was pretty 'kewl'. I spent a lot of time on the Leibstandarte in particular but didn't stop there. The more I learned, the less 'kewl' they got.
The issue was whether a Waffen SS name for a squad here is appropriate. It isn't in my opinion. No one is saying that JG 54 or JG 11 or any of the luftwaffe squad names are out of line. There is an aviation connection after all. But trying to lump the Waffen SS into the 'just another military unit' line doesn't work for me.
Keep in mind that the SS/Waffen SS was the will of the Nazi leaders, and built to project their power and to maintain their control both within Germany and outside of it. Hitler to Himmler and the Cronies who got the Division commands like Theodore Eicke and Sepp Dietrich. That was the chain of command. And it stayed that way. SS units operated independently of other German military commands deliberately for a reason.
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Hitler had his "Mr.Nice guy" moments too. Watch the footage where he's out with Eva
and the kids. Anyone need a reference book?...anyone?........hello?(cricket chirps)
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Bah... but dont listen to me. I dont have a degree in WWII or anything. I didnt spend hours and hours and years and years of reading academic sources and writing research papers for graduate classes and lecturing to undergrads on almost every aspect of WWII (from the individual infantry weapons used, to squad tactics, to campaigns, to world politics, and even our very own aircraft in AH2). I dont have over 3 dozen testimonies from interviews conducted by me of WWII vets from 6 different countries (US, Canada, UK, Germany, Poland, and Egypt). I have no idea what I am speaking about. I guess I need to read up on some more Time-Life picture books. Am I an expert? Nah, I'll stop short of saying so.
...well...based on what you write, I guess I believe this....
- oldman
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Hitler had his "Mr.Nice guy" moments too. Watch the footage where he's out with Eva
and the kids. Anyone need a reference book?...anyone?........hello?(cricket chirps)
Here is one on that subject:
pages 11-19 in "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William L. Shirer, last edited in 1990, and published by Simon and Schuster. In those pages it spells out in sketchy details the highs and lows of Hitler's relations with other people, namely family and friends. He had his moments it sounds like. Certainly not the best source, but one I had close at hand. ;)
Oh great... perhaps I shouldnt have done that. Now I'll be called a Hitler lover, too. :uhoh
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... Oh great... perhaps I shouldnt have done that. Now I'll be called a Hitler lover, too. :uhoh
Apologist would be the better.
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*sigh*
Yeah, the SS were not a nice bunch, but the Soviets had units that committed far more attrocities and yet people tend to forget (or never know) them. Oh, and remember our allies the Nationalist Chinese (heck, even the Red Chinese)??? Yeah, do some research. Both of those make the SS look like child's play.
If a group of guys were to use the "SS" in their name, oh well. Move on to other more important things and stop WANTING ti be insulted. Friggin whiners.
Oh, and dont belittle the professionalism these soldiers displayed on the battlefield. The lot of them were awesome. They were far more diciplined and porfessional than most of the allied troop units. Leave their political association aside and take a moment to see what they accomplished. Disclaimer: I'm not defending the atrocities they committed.
This thread started by asking is "waffen ss" ok to use as an AH squad name, The answer is "NO" it's not ok, period.
Soviet, Chinese units were not in the question, but ok, name those units we should keep an eye out for ,if someone trys to sneek the names in we'll jump off that bridge when we get to it.
These were not professional soldiers, they were killers ,trained to kill, yes, soldiers, NO! You say look at what they accomplished, mass murder is what they accomplished, the fact that others were guilty of the same or even worse is no excuse for the crimes these killers committed.
The war the NAZI's took into the soviet union was a war of "EXTERMINATION" the idea was that Germany needed territory to expand, "EMPTY territory" The "ss" Waffen or otherwise was designed to insure the war of extermination was carried out without question. Regular army troops were not trusted to follow these orders to the letter. That's why the ss had a separate chain of command all the way and directly back to Hitler.
You say you are not defending their crimes, you can't defend any part of them, and you can't overlook or justify their actions by saying that's not the worst of what happend during the time period.
By defending them you are infact part of the problem with how some would have the ss remembered as a bunch of regular army troops caught up in something larger then themselves and therefor are innocent, NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH!
"I was only following orders" is unacceptable.
Stop propagating the myth that these were innocent troops following orders! It's an outright lie!
And if your going to defend them don't put a disclaimer in there. If your in for a penny your in for a pound!
Nazi's and their idea's should be stomped out when ever they raise their ignorant heads.
Don
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thought this might be appropriate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QSLuHVD1M0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QSLuHVD1M0)
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I found this appropiate. http://80thfsheadhunters.com/Files/Stephen%20Lynch%20-%20The%20Craig%20Machine%20-%20Little%20Tiny%20Moustache%20-%2009.wma (http://80thfsheadhunters.com/Files/Stephen%20Lynch%20-%20The%20Craig%20Machine%20-%20Little%20Tiny%20Moustache%20-%2009.wma)
Not safe for work.
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You are blathering nonsense and show a complete ignorance of actual history.
If you think the Waffen SS combat units were not "professional soldiers" then you shouldnt even be talking to the grownups here.
This thread started by asking is "waffen ss" ok to use as an AH squad name, The answer is "NO" it's not ok, period.
Soviet, Chinese units were not in the question, but ok, name those units we should keep an eye out for ,if someone trys to sneek the names in we'll jump off that bridge when we get to it.
These were not professional soldiers, they were killers ,trained to kill, yes, soldiers, NO! You say look at what they accomplished, mass murder is what they accomplished, the fact that others were guilty of the same or even worse is no excuse for the crimes these killers committed.
The war the NAZI's took into the soviet union was a war of "EXTERMINATION" the idea was that Germany needed territory to expand, "EMPTY territory" The "ss" Waffen or otherwise was designed to insure the war of extermination was carried out without question. Regular army troops were not trusted to follow these orders to the letter. That's why the ss had a separate chain of command all the way and directly back to Hitler.
You say you are not defending their crimes, you can't defend any part of them, and you can't overlook or justify their actions by saying that's not the worst of what happend during the time period.
By defending them you are infact part of the problem with how some would have the ss remembered as a bunch of regular army troops caught up in something larger then themselves and therefor are innocent, NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH!
"I was only following orders" is unacceptable.
Stop propagating the myth that these were innocent troops following orders! It's an outright lie!
And if your going to defend them don't put a disclaimer in there. If your in for a penny your in for a pound!
Nazi's and their idea's should be stomped out when ever they raise their ignorant heads.
Don
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Unfortunately, this is how many view them (with apologies to fans of the show):
<Cue Dukes Of Hazzard Tune>
Just good old Waffen-SS, never meanin' no harm...
Beats all you never saw, been in trouble with the law
Since the day they was formed.
Straightenin' the front, flattenin' the slavs...
Someday the Allies might get 'em but the Nuremberg prosecutors never will.
Makin' their way, the only way they know how...
That's just a little bit more than international law will allow.
Just good ol' Waffen-SS, wouldn't change if they could,
Fightin' the sub-human bolshevik jews like modern-day Robin Hoods...
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You are blathering nonsense and show a complete ignorance of actual history.
If you think the Waffen SS combat units were not "professional soldiers" then you shouldnt even be talking to the grownups here.
Soldiers, real soldiers, have a sense of duty, HONOR, and country. Soldiers do not go to battle with the full intent of making war on civilians, in this thread A few people have refferd to the ss as "Soldiers" they were not!
They were killers with no moral compass, calling them soldiers is an insult to every person who has ever been a soldier. I do not doubt there skill in combat, they were well trained and for a time well equipped. This does not make them soldiers. The term soldier is reserved for those with honor, the ss had none and anyone coming to their defence is a fool.
I would never give such a brutal lawless low class band of thug killers such an honorable designation.
Maybe you would have had to have served your country in uniform to know what I am talking about, in any case if you did serve you missed something and I really don't care what you think anyway. I can't imagine what runs thru your mind to come to the defence of such a brutal racist organization as the ss.
And if you still don't get it, maybe you should ask some of the grown ups to explain it to you.
Now run along richie
PS: I refer you to Estes post above, very insightful :rofl
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Soldiers of every nation commited sickening atrocities in that war, including US soldiers.
Im not defending the SS, most of all the concentration camp scum that was integrated into them as Himmler ammassed more power. Had it been up to me we would have hanged every German involved in The Final Solution.
At the same time there were many SS combat units that commited no more atrocities then any other German army unit. And they most certainly were professional, disciplined, and highly skilled soldiers. So run along to a Library and read about what actually happened in the war instead of making a fool of yourself pretending you know it here.
Soldiers, real soldiers, have a sence of duty, HONOR, and country. Soldiers do not go to battle with the full intent of making war on civileans, in this thread A few peolpe have refferd to the ss as "Soldiers" they were not!
They were killers with no moral compass, calling them soldiers is an insult to every person who has ever been a soldier. I do not dout there skill in combat, they were well trained and for a time well equipped. This does not make them soldiers. The term soldier is reserved for those with honor, the ss had none and anyone coming to their defence is a fool.
I would never give such a brutal lawless low class band of thug killers such an honorable designation.
Maybe you would have had to have served your country in uniform to know what I am talking about, in any case if you did serve you missed something and I really don't care what you think anyway. I can't imagine what runs thru your mind to come to the defence of such a brutal racest organiztion as the ss.
And if you still don't get it, maybe you should ask some of the grown ups to explain it to you.
Now run along richie
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You are blathering nonsense and show a complete ignorance of actual history.
If you think the Waffen SS combat units were not "professional soldiers" then you shouldnt even be talking to the grownups here.
Fantical is a far more accurate description then professional. And please don't insult those of us with a history background with the notion of complete ignorance. I'd suggest you do some serious research on the Waffen SS before you make that statement.
I'll put my collection on their history up against yours if you'd like and it's not off the web.
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Soldiers of every nation commited sickening atrocities in that war, including US soldiers.
Im not defending the SS, most of all the concentration camp scum that was integrated into them as Himmler ammassed more power. Had it been up to me we would have hanged every German involved in The Final Solution.
At the same time there were many SS combat units that commited no more atrocities then any other German army unit. And they most certainly were professional, disciplined, and highly skilled soldiers.
Again do some more research please before you go making those kind of statements. Start with Sepp Deitrich and Theodore Eicke and their stories since they were the CO's of the first two SS combat divisions and then we'll go from there. Then tell me about what professional men they were.
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This thread started by asking is "waffen ss" ok to use as an AH squad name, The answer is "NO" it's not ok, period.
Soviet, Chinese units were not in the question, but ok, name those units we should keep an eye out for ,if someone trys to sneek the names in we'll jump off that bridge when we get to it.
These were not professional soldiers, they were killers ,trained to kill, yes, soldiers, NO! You say look at what they accomplished, mass murder is what they accomplished, the fact that others were guilty of the same or even worse is no excuse for the crimes these killers committed.
The war the NAZI's took into the soviet union was a war of "EXTERMINATION" the idea was that Germany needed territory to expand, "EMPTY territory" The "ss" Waffen or otherwise was designed to insure the war of extermination was carried out without question. Regular army troops were not trusted to follow these orders to the letter. That's why the ss had a separate chain of command all the way and directly back to Hitler.
You say you are not defending their crimes, you can't defend any part of them, and you can't overlook or justify their actions by saying that's not the worst of what happend during the time period.
By defending them you are infact part of the problem with how some would have the ss remembered as a bunch of regular army troops caught up in something larger then themselves and therefor are innocent, NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH!
"I was only following orders" is unacceptable.
Stop propagating the myth that these were innocent troops following orders! It's an outright lie!
And if your going to defend them don't put a disclaimer in there. If your in for a penny your in for a pound!
Nazi's and their idea's should be stomped out when ever they raise their ignorant heads.
Don
Your response is exactly as I would expect from one who has read but one angle (and a very narrow one at that) from the Time-Life picture books about WWII. Even your "extermination" claim for Germany expanding into eastern Europe is wrong. Also, I didnt defend them at all. Never have. Read and re-read my posts. Both of them. I simply make a claim that for people to soil their drawers over a unit naming themselves the "SS" is narrow when the bigger picture is not known. I wouldnt want to be in a unit named after an SS unit, but to each his own.
Also, the fact that you have blurted out responses to statements not made and answers to questions that no one asked tells me my hunch is correct. I highly suggest you read what facism is all about before condeming it. You have just stated that "Nazi's and their ideas should be stomped out always etc etc", but I challenge you to read into things and just see how many of "their" ideas are in use by major democratic powers today. The 40hr work week? Employee benefits? Paid holidays? Taxation policies? Social policies? Read into it. Keep in mind that when the Nazi's formed their party, exterminating the Jews wasnt on their list of priorities, that came to be due to Hitler's obsession not the party's. Read the entire history of the Nazis and the "brownshirts" and learn how they came to be what you know of them today. Their history is far deeper than the attrocities of '43-'45 (no, not a bright one but one different than most know. The source I menioned in my earlier thread is a good general starting point).
santaana: I am hardly an apologist for Hitler and his cronies or the Nazis. I am merely one to know the bigger picture and wince when a populist (and often very incomplete) view is puked up.
Back to the original subject... I dont think it should be an issue to have an "SS" as a unit name. After all, it could mean "Super Sport". I see them next to the Chevrolet symbol quite often. ;)
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Soldiers of every nation commited sickening atrocities in that war, including US soldiers.
Im not defending the SS, most of all the concentration camp scum that was integrated into them as Himmler ammassed more power. Had it been up to me we would have hanged every German involved in The Final Solution.
At the same time there were many SS combat units that commited no more atrocities then any other German army unit. And they most certainly were professional, disciplined, and highly skilled soldiers. So run along to a Library and read about what actually happened in the war instead of making a fool of yourself pretending you know it here.
You just don't get it, the nazi's premeditated the slaughter of millions,(non combatants) they created and used the ss to this end.
It's sad that you would give them any honor at all. I hope one day your eyes will open and your admiration of these maniacs will end.
have a great evening.
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Your response is exactly as I would expect from one who has read but one angle (and a very narrow one at that) from the Time-Life picture books about WWII. Even your "extermination" claim for Germany expanding into eastern Europe is wrong. Also, I didnt defend them at all. Never have. Read and re-read my posts. Both of them. I simply make a claim that for people to soil their drawers over a unit naming themselves the "SS" is narrow when the bigger picture is not known. I wouldnt want to be in a unit named after an SS unit, but to each his own.
Also, the fact that you have blurted out responses to statements not made and answers to questions that no one asked tells me my hunch is correct. I highly suggest you read what facism is all about before condeming it. You have just stated that "Nazi's and their ideas should be stomped out always etc etc", but I challenge you to read into things and just see how many of "their" ideas are in use by major democratic powers today. The 40hr work week? Employee benefits? Paid holidays? Taxation policies? Social policies? Read into it. Keep in mind that when the Nazi's formed their party, exterminating the Jews wasnt on their list of priorities, that came to be due to Hitler's obsession not the party's. Read the entire history of the Nazis and the "brownshirts" and learn how they came to be what you know of them today. Their history is far deeper than the attrocities of '43-'45 (no, not a bright one but one different than most know. The source I menioned in my earlier thread is a good general starting point).
santaana: I am hardly an apologist for Hitler and his cronies or the Nazis. I am merely one to know the bigger picture and wince when a populist (and often very incomplete) view is puked up.
Back to the original subject... I dont think it should be an issue to have an "SS" as a unit name. After all, it could mean "Super Sport". I see them next to the Chevrolet symbol quite often. ;)
Your an Idiot
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<INsert popcorn smiley here>
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You just don't get it, the nazi's premeditated the slaughter of millions,(non combatants) they created and used the ss to this end.
It's sad that you would give them any honor at all. I hope one day your eyes will open and your admiration of these maniacs will end.
have a great evening.
Oh man and this kid is calling others "idiots"? You sound like your about 13yo.
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Oh man and this kid is calling others "idiots"? You sound like your about 13yo.
Let me know when you get that research done will ya? Theodore Eicke, Sepp Deitrich. Then come back and talk about it.
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Oh man and this kid is calling others "idiots"? You sound like your about 13yo.
You'll have to excuse rich, he falls back on "You sound like your about 13yo." whenever someone disagrees with him.
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You'll have to excuse rich, he falls back on "You sound like your about 13yo." whenever someone disagrees with him.
:rofl
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Oh man and this kid is calling others "idiots"? You sound like your about 13yo.
richie, I thought I told you to run along little fella.
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LOL... so this is still going on :rofl
Let me know when you get that research done will ya? Theodore Eicke, Sepp Deitrich. Then come back and talk about it.
So, Eicke and Dietrich will prove us that every Waffe-SS unit was full of evil nazis and they all commited war crimes and took part in genocide?
Next you will tell us to read Hitler's writings to prove that all Austrian were megalomaniac racists?
I don't doubt your sources or that you have read and studied them. I even agree on what they say. What I find lacking is how you set your argumentation based on the available info.
It is the hypocrisy in some posts here along the lines "they did it because they all were evil, but all our guys were good and heroes because they did only what was necessary" that bothers me. Surely they (the "good guys")may have done what they saw necessary, but the acts remain in some cases equally evil (note, in only some, because nazis are also known of cases of inhumane torture). For the dead civilians it did not make a difference whether they died from bullets at nazis' execution line or from allied bomb blasts. Even good men can do evil things. Admiting that allows one to evaluate the history more objectively.
E.g. yanksfan preeches quite subjectively about honorable soldiers. Is it only about "who started it"? Is it evil only to do something first and perfectly honorable to do it back? e.g. http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScrapbook/DachauLiberation/SoldiersKilled.html
How should one consider the whole organization behind this act if it is always about the organization and the acts of individual units cannot be separated?
No-one still knows about this Waffen-SS man called Larry Thorne. No honor eh? :noid
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I submit 14 pages of proof to the theory that history is doomed to repeat itself.
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I submit 14 pages of proof to the theory that history is doomed to repeat itself.
You may have a point there.
Kinda scary.
- oldman
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You'll have to excuse rich, he falls back on "You sound like your about 13yo." whenever someone disagrees with him.
There goes Bronk, humping the ankle again.
I usually think I'm talking to a 13yo when they start screeching nonsense and accusing me of saying things I never did.
Like this goof who says I admire the SS. Where in hell did I ever say I admire the SS ?
Regarding atrocities by all sides during the war, here http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres_axis.html#Germany
Since you morons are incapable of using a search engine yourselves, reading yourselves, or doing research
http://secondvortex.blogspot.com/2008/02/massacres-and-atrocities-wwii-germany.html
yourselves.http://www.rense.com/general39/allied.htm
I only included a few cause I know your attention spans are short. That, and Bronk is starting to get my ankle sticky.
Here, educate yourselves about the Waffen SS. I would send you books but they dont have many pictures so you probably wouldn't be interested.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS I include this cause its easy to read.
http://militaryhistory.suite101.com/article.cfm/hitler_s_foreign_legion__waffen_ss This is actually a accurate description of the Polyglot of different types, and units, that wore the SS runes.
Heres one of the better sights for adults who wish to study actual history without screeching like hysterical feminine hygiene implements.
http://www.dasreich.ca/
Oops, gotta go. The little Bronk Chihuahua is breathing fast.
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And you still haven't responded to my post.
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LOL... so this is still going on :rofl
So, Eicke and Dietrich will prove us that every Waffe-SS unit was full of evil nazis and they all commited war crimes and took part in genocide?
Next you will tell us to read Hitler's writings to prove that all Austrian were megalomaniac racists?
I don't doubt your sources or that you have read and studied them. I even agree on what they say. What I find lacking is how you set your argumentation based on the available info.
It is the hypocrisy in some posts here along the lines "they did it because they all were evil, but all our guys were good and heroes because they did only what was necessary" that bothers me. Surely they (the "good guys")may have done what they saw necessary, but the acts remain in some cases equally evil (note, in only some, because nazis are also known of cases of inhumane torture). For the dead civilians it did not make a difference whether they died from bullets at nazis' execution line or from allied bomb blasts. Even good men can do evil things. Admiting that allows one to evaluate the history more objectively.
E.g. yanksfan preeches quite subjectively about honorable soldiers. Is it only about "who started it"? Is it evil only to do something first and perfectly honorable to do it back? e.g. http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScrapbook/DachauLiberation/SoldiersKilled.html
How should one consider the whole organization behind this act if it is always about the organization and the acts of individual units cannot be separated?
No-one still knows about this Waffen-SS man called Larry Thorne. No honor eh? :noid
You gents want to keep dragging other events into this. The question was is a Waffen SS name appropriate here. As said before my opinion is no, and I've stated my reasons. I use Deitrich and Eicke as examples of the leadership of those Waffen SS units since they commanded the 1st and the 2nd SS divisions. Read about who they were, and what they instilled in their men as well as their impact on the formation of the Waffen SS and it's operation as essentially Hitler's private army seperate from the regular army under a different set of laws governing the behavior of it's soldiers, something demanded by Himmler after the Whermacht wanted to charge Waffen SS men with the murder of 50 Jews in Poland, under military law at the beginning of the war. The list goes on and on. It was an ideological, political and fanatical military arm of the Nazi Party.
Does that mean every SS man was a war criminal? No. That doesn't make the Waffen SS an appropriate squad name for a flight sim however.
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I agree. This squad name should not be in the game. The men that made up the SS, swore an oath, not to their country or their comrades, but to Hitler. That has been mentioned before. Don't allow it.
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Does that mean every SS man was a war criminal? No. That doesn't make the Waffen SS an appropriate squad name for a flight sim however.
I'll buy that :aok
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If you find that offensive go play another game,this game is supposed to be accurate. Why ignore what really happened. Some people agree with that stuff to you know.
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If you find that offensive go play another game,this game is supposed to be accurate. Why ignore what really happened. Some people agree with that stuff to you know.
Ok then. I'll ask you: how many fighter squadrons the Waffen SS operated?
In any order, this is a stupid thing to debate. If you don't like it...... make a game to hunt down this particular squadron every time you are on, and every time you kill them, tell them why.
After all, as hitech says, "this game is all about pissin the other guy off."
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If you find that offensive go play another game,this game is supposed to be accurate. Why ignore what really happened. Some people agree with that stuff to you know.
:lol that was a pretty dumb post..
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If you find that offensive go play another game,this game is supposed to be accurate. Why ignore what really happened. Some people agree with that stuff to you know.
Notice the lack of swastikas on the vertical stabilizers of German aircraft the next time you play :aok
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I agree. This squad name should not be in the game. The men that made up the SS, swore an oath, not to their country or their comrades, but to Hitler. That has been mentioned before. Don't allow it.
Everyone in the German armed forces and civil service swore a personal oath to Hitler beginning in 1934.
Heres the service oath the armed forces had to swear to I swear by God this sacred oath that I shall render unconditional obedience to Adolf Hitler, the Führer of the German Reich and people, supreme commander of the armed forces, and that I shall at all times be ready, as a brave soldier, to give my life for this oath.
Civil service I swear: I will be faithful and obedient to Adolf Hitler, Führer of the German Reich and people, to observe the law, and to conscientiously fulfill my official duties, so help me God.
Here was the SS oath I swear to you
Adolf Hitler,
as leader and
chancellor of the nation
loyalty and bravery.
I vow to you
and to the
representatives appointed
by you obedience
unto death,
so help me God.
Can someone tell me the difference?
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Rich, you need to pay attention better. You are reading selectively and avoiding that which you can't respond to.
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If you find that offensive go play another game,this game is supposed to be accurate. Why ignore what really happened. Some people agree with that stuff to you know.
Wow.
- oldman
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Rich, you need to pay attention better. You are reading selectively and avoiding that which you can't respond to.
Now what are you babbling about? If its this Again do some more research please before you go making those kind of statements. Start with Sepp Deitrich and Theodore Eicke and their stories since they were the CO's of the first two SS combat divisions and then we'll go from there. Then tell me about what professional men they were.
I answered it about 6 times already in this thread.
Here, I'll help you Soldiers of every nation commited sickening atrocities in that war
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Now what are you babbling about? If its this I answered it about 6 times already in this thread.
Here, I'll help you
And what did you learn about those two men, Dietrich and Eicke?
I don't want some web link. What did YOU learn?
You keep bouncing around but never answering.
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Everyone in the German armed forces and civil service swore a personal oath to Hitler beginning in 1934.
Heres the service oath the armed forces had to swear to
Civil service Here was the SS oathCan someone tell me the difference?
I've so far ignored this post, and jumping in now to make a small point is probably a mistake but I thought I'd answer this question really quick.
There is one glaring omission in the SS oath you posted, "law". The Wehrmacht was historically and traditionally a non-political entity, swearing an oath to Hitler directly was controversial at the time, yet I still see that they swear to uphold the law, something the that is missing in the SS oath.
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Waffen SS is just too provoking to be allowed in the game.I actually had a chance to meet two former SS soldiers in my life.My cousin married a lad whose father was in the SS.He seemed pleasant enough,and thats about all I can recall about him.The other SS experience wasn't pleasant at all.A former Estonian SS soldier,flipped out and was running people off the road,during a high speed pursuit.I was in law enforcement at that time,and as it turned out,we managed to get him stopped,and in the insuing fight,he was shot in the back.I was told by the deputies that had to guard him while he was in the hospital,that he was a real extrahunk,and he constantly praised the Reich,SS and Hitler.
IronDog
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And what did you learn about those two men, Dietrich and Eicke?
I don't want some web link. What did YOU learn?
You keep bouncing around but never answering.
I cant stand it when people dance around with somthing to say and then pretend they dont want to say it cause they are so smart, and the other guy should have to figure out what they have to say.
Especially those that think I said somthing I never said. And I never said I admired the SS, nor did I ever say the name should be included in the game. All I did was recite actual history. Regarding the final solution, had anyone actually read my posts, the only thing I said was , "were it up to me we would have hanged every German involved".
But when I do it I say directly what I mean and dont ask people "what did you learn" without first saying what I meant.
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I cant stand it when people dance around with somthing to say and then pretend they dont want to say it cause they are so smart, and the other guy should have to figure out what they have to say.
pot kettle
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pot kettle
Ankle humping poochie. :lol
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The Waffen SS were National Socialists first and Soldiers second.Being good at your job does not ennoble you.
National socialist politics was in their blood-literally!If they didn't always commit atrocities,that's because they were not always fighting non-Aryans.
I personally think the idea Abhorrent.
If you had lost relatives to these people,your views may be different.
Anyway what do I know.
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Ankle humping poochie. :lol
Don't you have a toolshed to to try and beat? I know it's a stretch for you but i think you can do it. :aok
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Don't you have a toolshed to to try and beat? I know it's a stretch for you but i think you can do it. :aok
Do you ever actually add to a thread or do you only hump ankles?
This last hump I'd have to speak Chinese to understand. Boy I sure wish AH would activate forum ignore again.
At least for the ankle humpers. You know?
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I cant stand it when people dance around with somthing to say and then pretend they dont want to say it cause they are so smart, and the
See this is another of rich's bag of 1337 trick. Claim they are doing what he is doing.
Rich your like a Pavlov dog.
I ring the bell and you drool. Get a napkin you've embarrassing yourself.
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An aside...about "ankle humping." I don't think that word means what you think it means!
Dogs ankle hump humans they like, but as a dominance behavior. Around here people use the phrase they way WC Fields used "Go away kid, you bother me." Around here its mostly used to describe those who oppose you and butt into your conversation, although sometimes folks come close to the actual meaning when they describe fanboys jumping in where they're not wanted.
In short, Rich, there are absolutely NO ankle humpers involved in this conversation.
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The Waffen SS were National Socialists first and Soldiers second.
Anyway what do I know.
When you know that you don't know, why don't you read or even google a bit before you make such ignorant claims ;)
I repeat... many Waffen-SS men were not nazies! Do not generalize.
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The waffen SS was fundamentally a Nazi organization.That organization subscribed to Nazi ideology.I repeat abhorrent,like national Socialism itself.
I doubt HTC would risk the controversy of such a Squad in Aces high.that I do know.
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My point is,the fact that many later recruits of the waffen SS were not Nazis does not change the colour of the organization itself.
By the way,I do not need to google about the Nazis or the Waffen SS my father fought in WWII,and had the unpleasnt honour of participating in the liberation of Bergan Belson.Until 1946 he had a job Photographing German Prisoners of war,many of them high ranking Genrals,both Wehrmacht and Waffen SS.
He also met Soviet troops in 1945 - I have a picture of him with them somewhere -and their feelings for the waffen SS were very clear.
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I cant stand it when people dance around with somthing to say and then pretend they dont want to say it cause they are so smart, and the other guy should have to figure out what they have to say.
Especially those that think I said somthing I never said. And I never said I admired the SS, nor did I ever say the name should be included in the game. All I did was recite actual history. Regarding the final solution, had anyone actually read my posts, the only thing I said was , "were it up to me we would have hanged every German involved".
But when I do it I say directly what I mean and dont ask people "what did you learn" without first saying what I meant.
OK rich, let me dumb it down for you. The question was whether a Waffen SS name was appropriate for AH. I said no because of what the Waffen SS was during WW2, Hitler's private army lead by men who were fanatically devoted to Hitler both in ideology and their fanaticism. This was instilled in their Waffen SS units which were organized seperately, did not operate under normal German military law, and were renowned for their atrocities in whatever theater of the war they fought in.
Does it make every SS man a war criminal? No. Does it make them just ordinary soldiers like the Whermacht? No. My suggestion for you to research the histoy of Sepp Deitrich and Theodore Eicke was because they were the Division Commanders of the First two SS Combat divisions. They set the tone, and their history is full of murder, concentration camp attrocities, racial superiority etc.
Again anything representing that in a flight sim is inappropriate to me.
If that's not clear enough for you, I don't know what else to tell you. Frankly I'm tired of trying to explain it to you as clearly you don't get it.
In that regards I'm done with it. In the end it's HTC's decision anyway.
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I'm no longer seeing a squad by that name in the squad listings. Either it's C/O decided to change it on his own or HTC sent him an e-mail.
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Arguing is moot actions have been taken by htc apperntly, let it die please.
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thank goodness this is all over...I was having such a hard time sleeping at night... :rolleyes:
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From the Jewish "virtual Library"http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Dietrich.html Or, let me guess teacher. They have some reason to protect he memory of Sepp Dietrich. :D Though an SS soldier to the core, Sepp Dietrich did not hold extremist views and his loyalty to his troops remained paramount. He protected them against SS Chief Heinrich Himmler whom he frequently referred to with barely concealed contempt as "the Reichsheini." He also personally protested to Hitler twice about the shooting of Jews.
Your not "dumbing" nothing down. Apparently I finally got you to say what was on your mind without giving a homework assignment. I know the atrocities these two, and other, members of the SS committed. I never said they didn't, you cant seem to understand that can you?
And actually before you give out homework assignments you should get your own ducks in a row. Before Malmedy Sepp Dietrich had also a brilliant career as a combat soldier in both world wars. Even his Malmedy complicity was disputed and he personally complained to Hitler several times about the treatment of Jews. Tho I suppose the Jews here have some reason for saying so.http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Dietrich.html Maybe you should study history your ownself before you start giving out homework assignments.
I'm glad your done with it. Cause you have a really poor grasp of history, and to make it worse, you actually think you know what your talking about. Tho I must say your timezones in front of these two Intellectuals. For the purposes of the thread I'll call them twittle dee and twittle dum.
First, twittle dee
See this is another of rich's bag of 1337 trick. Claim they are doing what he is doing.
Rich your like a Pavlov dog.
I ring the bell and you drool. Get a napkin you've embarrassing yourself.
Then, twittle dum. :lol An aside...about "ankle humping." I don't think that word means what you think it means!
Dogs ankle hump humans they like, but as a dominance behavior. Around here people use the phrase they way WC Fields used "Go away kid, you bother me." Around here its mostly used to describe those who oppose you and butt into your conversation, although sometimes folks come close to the actual meaning when they describe fanboys jumping in where they're not wanted.
In short, Rich, there are absolutely NO ankle humpers involved in this conversation.
OK rich, let me dumb it down for you. The question was whether a Waffen SS name was appropriate for AH. I said no because of what the Waffen SS was during WW2, Hitler's private army lead by men who were fanatically devoted to Hitler both in ideology and their fanaticism. This was instilled in their Waffen SS units which were organized seperately, did not operate under normal German military law, and were renowned for their atrocities in whatever theater of the war they fought in.
Does it make every SS man a war criminal? No. Does it make them just ordinary soldiers like the Whermacht? No. My suggestion for you to research the histoy of Sepp Deitrich and Sepp Deitrich was because they were the Division Commanders of the First two SS Combat divisions. They set the tone, and their history is full of murder, concentration camp attrocities, racial superiority etc.
Again anything representing that in a flight sim is inappropriate to me.
If that's not clear enough for you, I don't know what else to tell you. Frankly I'm tired of trying to explain it to you as clearly you don't get it.
In that regards I'm done with it. In the end it's HTC's decision anyway.
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How to make friends and influence people. :noid
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How to make friends and influence people. :noid
Make your first name, Bald! :aok
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This is turning nasty,please somebody pull the plug.INand out.
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From the ...blah blah blah...too much to quote the whole thing.
Then, twittle dum. :lol
You sir are rude and of a dubious nature.
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Well I'm glad I have raised the issue as I see a somewhat civil discussion arose out of it. I send my special greetings to those who have stood up and shared their own views.
Althought I do not agree with the opposing side arguments I respect your views. I do hope they will change over time however.
Any organization that has the blood of innocent civilians killed in a deliberate and monster like fashion should be condemned and treated as the cowards they are. This does not just encompass the SS, but other organizations such as the Soviet secret services, the KKK's in the states, or the jihadists in the modern muslim world.
Those that sided that the SS were proffesional soldiers, I do ask you to reverse the question upon yourselves and imagine if the name was 'Osama bin Laden' or 'Jihad against Wester Civilization in general'. How would you respond to views that those jihadists that can saw off innocent peoples heads infront of cameras are 'proffesional soldiers'? Would you side with them, and if not, does that not cripple your arguments? I think it does.
All of these extremist organizations share one common trait. They are not disgusted by the killing of the innocent in a personal and monster like fashion. Women, children, little girls and boys.
Dropping bombs on orders and face to face execution are two very different things. It takes two very different people to commit these acts. The justice system makes that distinction. I hope you do as well.
Again thank you for participating.
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Boy, am I sure glad that we, as Americans are so innocent and above reproach.
I see a lot of bashing the SS, the Muslims, the Soviets, etc. Ever wonder how a Native American felt?
No mention of any of that here :noid
Thought I'd toss that out there, just to add my worthless .02
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Wow! Another American Indian vs US Army comparison to Nazi Germany post!
It seems to me that many would like to compare the USA to Nazi Germany via American Hisory. If so, please show me where in American History that MILLIONS of American Indians were rounded up, placed in cattle cars and transported to a place of genocide. Please, please, show me where the "reservations" were built, in advance, for the sole purpose of exterminating American Indians by the MILLIONS in a short, 8 year period of time!
Americans are not above reproach...we've made mistakes, and admitted to them.
Isn't IGNORANCE bliss?
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I just thought I'd stir the pot, congrats, you took the bait, I guess I made a good cast. :aok
I guess though, just to satisfy you (maybe even to evoke, yet again, another response) it wasn't pre-planned for the natives of this country, so that makes it that much more insignificant, and less "evil"?
When lives are lost and humans are slaughtered wholesale, I would think that it would be bad regardless of the numbers.
(that was my 2nd cast)
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I have one thing to say i have half of my family that lives in Austria. My second cousin was drafted in to the Waffen SS. He was basically like the home guard in austria. My grandfather explained to me as this there were two different SS groups you had your shock troops and you had your basic scum of the earth nazi SS. Its not like my cousin had a choice they lined you up in the village and said you, you, and you your drafted if you said no they shot you on the spot. IIRC had two other cousins one was captured in italy by the British and one was killed on the Russian front and he was part of the SS also but was a tank gunner. But to have it in a game i must agree that it is in bad taste to name a squad that the bad of the SS far out weighs the good IMHO.
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Of course it's in bad taste.
There are plenty of tasteless things in this and many other games.
To have a 17 page thread about one tasteless thing is very amusing.
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Can't believe it got to 17 pages lol.
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I have a book called Loyalty is my Honor - it is all personal accounts by soldiers of the Waffen SS. Some groups did commit atrocities, but the majority were just awesome combat troops. It is a shame for the majority who did fight properly that the name has been tainted because they really were very good.
Would recommend this book to anyone: http://www.amazon.com/Loyalty-My-Honor-Gordon-Williamson/dp/0760300127
I do not personally find it offensive, but can understand others would.
i have that book as well and i all so have a book call the black order it gos on how and what the ss where did you know there was 2 ss one was called allgemeine ss and the waffen ss the allgemeine where the ones who done the orders to kill all jews and ran the show and the waffen ss where the soldiers who took orders yes the waffen did some warcrimes like the members of the Direwangers Brigade who where drunks and thiefs who raped killed and robbed but most of the waffen ss where highly trained good soldiers who took the rap for warcrimes they never done
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We didn't kill millions (we really don't have a good count of how many died from the diseases early explorers exposed them to) but we sure do have something to be very ashamed of.
http://www.cherokeebyblood.com/trailtears.htm (http://www.cherokeebyblood.com/trailtears.htm)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears)
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Vonmessa all loss of life is bad, but when it is planned imo it is much worse, in the hand of the perpetrator.
My last post in this thread
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I can't believe this thread has reached 11 pages dealing with a 'no-brainer' issue. It's offensive, period. It was a military unit that supported and swore allegiance to Hitler. Why this has to be debated is rather moronic.
ack-ack
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(Playing devils advocate)
If we're into banning squads that committed unreasonable war actions, do we start banning Allied bomber squads that carpet bombed CITIES that targeted people directly with incendiaries? This included the targeting of civilians of Tokyo and Dresden. In war, we often cannot say what is right and wrong because we always look through rose coloured lenses. Had the Allies lost the war, I'm sure history would paint us as evil doers too, especially the commanders and squadrons that partook in some of our own questionable tactics. But we won. Dresden was a murder of over 40,000 civilians, Tokyo over 100,000. But this is different.
The difference is the nature of the SS - they were uncharacteristically brutal hence our knee-jerk reaction to the Waffen SS squad. It was a known evil assassin squad in WWII. To recreate it now is accepting them into our gaming family. That is not acceptable.
:salute
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(Playing devils advocate)
(slaps Fork with a fish)
You have bottles to clean and changing tables to set up. Let this thread die.
- oldman
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Frickn "AvA" people :rolleyes:
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Vonmessa all loss of life is bad, but when it is planned imo it is much worse, in the hand of the perpetrator.
My last post in this thread
When that many lives are lost, it is ALWAYS planned, as well as, atrocious. How well planned makes no difference. Once at that point, I don't think there really is a distinction of more or less wrong.
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When that many lives are lost, it is ALWAYS planned, as well as, atrocious. How well planned makes no difference. Once at that point, I don't think there really is a distinction of more or less wrong.
Dude, I really think everyone on all sides have said more then enough now, time to let this end.
Don
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<crickets>
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Dude, I really think everyone on all sides have said more then enough now, time to let this end.
Don
Wait, I haven't had a chance to post my dissertation in this thread yet!
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Almost 2 weeks and 18 pages and you haven't put your 2 cents in?
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It's a long reply... I'm about 1/3rd of the way done. Keep this thread going another 4 weeks, please.
Here, I'll help out:
Pilot A: The Waffen SS did some truly atrocious things. I think it's in poor taste to allow a squad named after them.
Pilot B: The Americans bought Manhattan from the Indians for only 24 beads! Therefore the Waffen weren't really so bad after all! My internal morality compass is working just fine!
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Engine!!! Yay!
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Your an Idiot
That is your contribution to discussion? You dont have to agree, but calling one names because you cant come up with anything other than a populist view is idiotic in its own right. Stop and open a book (a non-picture book) once in a while and look at things from the acedemic side of things (which means to put your personal opinions aside) instead of a populist side. You might learn something.
You have bene warped by the rubber stamped view of the media's world in which you live in. Stop and think about that. **
**kudos to Dr. Patrick McKinley for that quote.
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Are you sure about that?
Edit: In overall figures your probably right. However if we were to include concentration camps in which SS played a role, we would come up with similar numbers I believe.
But that is besides the point. I do not believe a pilot dropping bombs on a city holds the same responsibility as a soldier shooting a civilian at point blank range. Not all of those pilots would be able to do the second, however all of those SS members in question would be able to do the first.
You know when we fire bombed Tokyo in one night we killed a estimated 100 thousand people mostly civilians. This was before we dropped the two nukes. Now granted the pilots didn't hold guns to any one's heads and pull a trigger but they damn sure knew what they were doing.
Remember those judged for war crimes are always the losers. The ones who win never get judged. Granted I know the Germans did more than their far share of war crimes, but then again so did every country. The US killed hundreds of thousands with bomber raids. The nazi's had death camps and so on. The Japanese killed many captured soldiers as well as many civilians in China among other places. ect..ect.. all side commited crimes in one form or another but only the losers get judged for them.
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Well, I guess it is offensive in some ways, to some ppl...
To others not....
There are other squad names that make reference to
SS units, Totenkopf, etc...
If ya get rid of one, ya gotta get rid of the rest too...
Fair is Fair!!!
RC
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I can't believe this thread has reached 11 pages dealing with a 'no-brainer' issue. It's offensive, period. It was a military unit that supported and swore allegiance to Hitler. Why this has to be debated is rather moronic.
ack-ack
Put me on the list that finds anyone who forms or joins such a squad as suspect. BTW I ran one of the largest German themed squads in AW. We never allowed any swastikas or any racial rhetoric. We liked the Jadgwaffe history, organisation aspects and aircraft. There were some who wouldn't join our squad because it was a German squad. I understood. Anything world war two and German often gets painted by the same brush. An SS squad is offensive. Even to a Luftwaffe fan like myself. (actually a fan of all aircombat)There is a big difference between the Wehrmacht and the SS.
I have a lot of books on the SS and while they may have fought hard they are branded by the actions of their ideology. Kind of like the rebel flag. No one said anything while it was used for racial hatred but now its a Southern pride issue? I would not put the SS in the same class as the Commando's or Ranger's. Ya they all fought hard and died hard. But the SS still had racial hatred as their mantra.
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I can't believe this thread has reached 11 pages dealing with a 'no-brainer' issue. It's offensive, period. It was a military unit that supported and swore allegiance to Hitler. Why this has to be debated is rather moronic.
ack-ack
There are opinions, there are facts, and there are truths. Those of us who can look at history objectively and leave behind the personal opinions have an advantage over those who can not. No one will argue against the wrongs the SS did. However, one must not stop with the SS if they want to go the PC route for reasons I've already stated. The regulating of historical unit names will need to stretch far wider than anyone wants to allow.
Like so much of the PC rhetoric in todays world, something is only offensive if you choose it to be and that is what the debate is all about.
The SS soldiers were not as good as they were because they were "fanatics" and had hearts as black as the swastika itself, but rather due to their absolute professionalism and proficiency with battlefield tactics, weapons of war, and a knowledge of their enemy.
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Loon your not going to have an objective, historical discussion here. :lol If one thing has been established its that.
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The SS soldiers were not as good as they were because they were "fanatics" and had hearts as black as the swastika itself, but rather due to their absolute professionalism and proficiency with battlefield tactics, weapons of war, and a knowledge of their enemy.
Thats the point at which you seem to cross the line.
If I stated that about Jihadists who slaughter journalists etc, would you agree with me? Would that be an okey line of argument?
Answer that please.
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The SS soldiers were not as good as they were because they were "fanatics" and had hearts as black as the swastika itself, but rather due to their absolute professionalism and proficiency with battlefield tactics, weapons of war, and a knowledge of their enemy.
Hey, I have something new to contribute to this thread. :P
The men chosen for the Einsatzgruppen, or mobile-killing-units in the East, were selected precisely because they were the most accomplished, well behaved and mild-mannered of regular society, e.g. lawyers, dentists, etc. In theory, anyone who showed clear enjoyment at the work of extermination was not thought fit for the job. Excesses were punished as much as omissions. More broadly, the reticent were selected over the bloodthirsty because they are easier for a totalitarian government to control.
Thats the point at which you seem to cross the line.
If I stated that about Jihadists who slaughter journalists etc, would you agree with me? Would that be an okey line of argument?
Answer that please.
Don't call them "Jihadists." That's the Muslim equivalent to "Freedom-Fighter," or something else with a very, very positive connotation. :uhoh
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Don't call them "Jihadists." That's the Muslim equivalent to "Freedom-Fighter," or something else with a very, very positive connotation. :uhoh
I can call them terrorists if you want. The only reason I didn't is because I did not want to possibly offend anyone.
I think a comparison is applicable. They too are 'well trained' (in terrorist camps), share a fanatical sense of duty (how else would you explain blowing yourself up with a explosive belt?) and can be termed as 'elite'.
This line of argument would P. a lot of people off. Including myself.
It all depends what side of the coin your sitting at.
In my general view if the name SS pisses a lot of people off, change it. Then if someone voices outrage at another squad name, let it be known. I never said this is strictly reserved for SS. I said that this name in particular is not acceptable, especially since it had nothing to do with the LW.
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This reminds me of when what's his name lost his TV gig for saying the 9/11 terrorists were not cowards, because cowards would never have been able to pull it off. Technically, what he said was absolutely true. Wahabi extremists are successful at what they do because try train intensively for it, know their enemy better than the enemy knows them, and approach their task as professionals. Like the Einsatzgruppen, they tend to come from professional backgrounds and upper-middle-class families.
This line of argument would P. a lot of people off. Including myself.
It all depends what side of the coin your sitting at.
Whether or not it pisses people off has nothing to do with the truth of an argument or statement. I'm sitting on the same side of the coin as you, aren't I?