Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Scotch on January 17, 2009, 07:05:52 PM
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...the "great" landgrab warriors!
Rolling undefended fields like Thunder across the valley.
The true elite Raptors of the Aces High skies.
The il2 just doesn't have enough ammo...
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e286/jdcombs/TANKS.gif)
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Only rivaled by the fearsome NOE on undefended fields!
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e286/jdcombs/NOE1.jpg)
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I told ya the N1K is popular for land grabbing! :lol
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In both cases the other 1/2 are at the town.
These squads have reason to be proud of themselves!
I salute you. :salute
Or in your words... "oink".
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they are only undefended because people ignored them flashing :D
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BOOO NOEs!!! HOORAY BEER!
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That many GVs must have taken an extrordinary amount of time to reach that field!! Wow thats a lot of Gvs!
If somebody didn't spot that comin a mile away thats there own fault!
Plenty of time to rally the troops for defense either way.
Imagine the carnage that would have ensued if either of those attacks were caught in time!!
Fun fun fun!!
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No resistance= perfect mission
Oh, and lame as hell :aok
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In both cases the other 1/2 are at the town.
These squads have reason to be proud of themselves!
I salute you. :salute
Or in your words... "oink".
b
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Or in your words... "oink".
:huh...thought POW were knight?
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if an NOE comes in and the base is totally undefended its purely the fault of the defenders (or lack there of)..
why are NOEs so effective?
well it plays out as such:
somebody types "A23 is flashing" but they themselves don't go there.. figuring someone else will go, they called it out, did their part.
then as it keeps flashing.. those hundred plus people who saw the message that A23 is flashing, ignore it, figuring others will respond, they are buisy.
finally as the mission "hits" someone goes to the tower and says "ALERT NOE! A23" by then the base is capped and the town is getting obliterated.. even then almost nobody upps for the last ditch effort at defense..
probably because they already logged out to come make a post about how lame NOEs are :aok
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POTW is knight. That cannot possibly be POTW. Also, yes, the squad likes taking bases, but more often than not, we have been flying fighter sweeps of late, and some of us are dedicated air to air/furballers. We also switch between landgrabbing and furballing at a moments notice. Don't presume to lump everyone in the squad together. We dont "gang tard" but we WILL clear each others 6 unless called off by the squadmate. Unless you have flown with us, you have no way of knowing our playstyle, and should respect that fact by not spouting off. I respect the muppets for their (generally) decent skills in Air to Air, I love dogfighting you guys, but you should also respect the playstyles of other folks. Sometimes the pigs want to landgrab, sometimes we furball, what is wrong with either? either way we are having fun. If flying into a large group of us is not fun to you, it is simple. Don't do it.
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That many GVs must have taken an extrodinary amount of time to reach that field!! Wow thats a lot of Gvs!
If somebody didn't spot that comin a mile away thats there own fault!
Plenty of time to rally the troops for defense either way.
Imagine the carnage that would have ensued if either of those attacks were caught in time!!
Fun fun fun!!
Gotta agree with this. I would have had a blast spotting all those tanks and then going after them with a B-25 or A-20/IL2.
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POTW is always Knight. Nice try at pointing fingers. No points this round. :rofl
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Somebody is insufficiently disinterested in the outcome of the "war" IMHO. :devil
OTOH, I am beginning to think that DAR indicators should go all the way to the soil. The smash and grab NOE thing is just incessant. You might see some fights at more realistic alts and more realistic mission types if NOEs weren't far and away the easiest way to grab a base.
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if an NOE comes in and the base is totally undefended its purely the fault of the defenders (or lack there of)..
why are NOEs so effective?
well it plays out as such:
somebody types "A23 is flashing" but they themselves don't go there.. figuring someone else will go, they called it out, did their part.
then as it keeps flashing.. those hundred plus people who saw the message that A23 is flashing, ignore it, figuring others will respond, they are buisy.
finally as the mission "hits" someone goes to the tower and says "ALERT NOE! A23" by then the base is capped and the town is getting obliterated.. even then almost nobody upps for the last ditch effort at defense..
probably because they already logged out to come make a post about how lame NOEs are :aok
As I have always said...
If you don't want the bad guys to fight back, ya' might as well play offline and capture fields to your heart content.
THIS game is about combat.
Specifically Aerial Combat.
Why so many people fly around trying to avoid bad guys is beyond me.
Never understood it.
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Somebody is insufficiently disinterested in the outcome of the "war" IMHO. :devil
OTOH, I am beginning to think that DAR indicators should go all the way to the soil. The smash and grab NOE thing is just incessant. You might see some fights at more realistic alts and more realistic mission types if NOEs weren't far and away the easiest way to grab a base.
you wont see realistic attacks so long as you dont see the unrealistic defense.. I.E. mission inbound.. everybody up LA7s and blast right through and past the formation of fighters and bombers and fine and kill the Goon.. sure you might get show down 10 or 11 times in the process, but you just re-up blaze in, die, till someone shoots down or rams the goon(s) and the entire mission is a total bust.
thats a BIG part of why people choose NOE.. it gives you a chance to sneak in the goon before the defenders can launch their kamikaze attacks on it.
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As I have always said...
If you don't want the bad guys to fight back, ya' might as well play offline and capture fields to your heart content.
THIS game is about combat.
Specifically Aerial Combat.
Why so many people fly around trying to avoid bad guys is beyond me.
Never understood it.
NOEs are not about AVOIDING the fight, its about getting a reasonable advantage to give the mission a good chance of success.. if there is 0 resistance, the fault lies with the defenders, there is ample warning.
I guess a written invitation and 20 min warning to the defenders should be made. make sure everyone knows whats comeing and when.. that would be REALLY realistic :lol
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I particularly like the 110's winging with N1K's.
I tell you, the immersion meter must have been pegged.
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POTW is always Knight. Nice try at pointing fingers. No points this round. :rofl
I didn't say POTW were the squads pictured however the attitude is all the same.
Oink!
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When my (insert squad/country here) decides to roll a base; it's fine. If another (insert squad/countryhere) does it, it makes me cry :cry :cry
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e286/jdcombs/TANKS.gif)
Fixed.
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I mean....if you're going to do an NOE raid do it right...like all planes from one country (110s and 190s/38s, 51s, 47/or my personal favorite = Mossies, Typhs, and Spits, with the occassional faithful Boston pilots)
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Fixed.
Seen SkyRock flying a goon lately? :devil But no, it's not fine. It's leading to the detriment of game play.
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He's been demoted to C-47's??? Horrido!
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As I have always said...
If you don't want the bad guys to fight back, ya' might as well play offline and capture fields to your heart content.
THIS game is about combat.
Specifically Aerial Combat.
Why so many people fly around trying to avoid bad guys is beyond me.
Never understood it.
How hard is it to understand?
Some guys like takin bases, some guys don't. So what? Who cares?
From all I've read on these BBs, the guys who don't, always act like they are superior players .
You would think that if it bothered them so much, they would pay a little more attention. (SA)
Pretty funny really.
There are some real opportunities for great fights lost in not upping to defend against an noe attack.
I mean really!! How sneaky can it really be?
1st the town starts flashin, then the base starts flashing!!
How much more of an alarm is needed?
The real question is--Why don't the bad guys up and defend??
If no-one ups to defend a flashing base, it most certainly can't be blamed on the noe attack!
Jeeez, they gave ya enough notice!
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Someone must have upped against 30:1 odds to get those screen shots...
That must've been an awesome furball. What with such even sides and all.
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maybe some people enjoy that type of play
and some like to fight in furballs
am sure Hitech has no issues about it
as long as they pay
they can bomb and take undefended fields to there hearts content
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I think you should have to fight your way to total air and/or ground superiority if you want the base.
What in real-life would be called a "quagmire" is what constitutes a good fight in the AHII main.
So, long live the Zap Brannigan school of strategic command! Which finds its most glorious exposition in AHII at the hands of the Bishops!
"You see, Killbots have a preset killing limit. Knowing their weakness, I sent wave after wave of my own men at them, until they reached their limit and shut down."
(http://www.futurama-madhouse.com.ar/bios/bioZapp.jpg)
EDIT: Big thanks to Scotch for starting a thread which gives me an excuse to quote "Futurama".
you wont see realistic attacks so long as you dont see the unrealistic defense.. I.E. mission inbound.. everybody up LA7s and blast right through and past the formation of fighters and bombers and fine and kill the Goon.. sure you might get show down 10 or 11 times in the process, but you just re-up blaze in, die, till someone shoots down or rams the goon(s) and the entire mission is a total bust.
thats a BIG part of why people choose NOE.. it gives you a chance to sneak in the goon before the defenders can launch their kamikaze attacks on it.
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Somebody is insufficiently disinterested in the outcome of the "war" IMHO. :devil
OTOH, I am beginning to think that DAR indicators should go all the way to the soil. The smash and grab NOE thing is just incessant. You might see some fights at more realistic alts and more realistic mission types if NOEs weren't far and away the easiest way to grab a base.
Yea that's not a bad idea..
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How hard is it to understand? <SNIP>
Oh Puleeeez Boner1...stop boring us with your common sense. :aok
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In both cases the other 1/2 are at the town.
These squads have reason to be proud of themselves!
I salute you. :salute
Or in your words... "oink".
No, your right. My mistake thinking you were pointing fingers. Quitcherbellyachin and play the game the way you see fit.
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Looks like properly executed missions to me that can only be done without foresight, and courage by the bad guys.
Didn't we just go through all this before on oh about 10 threads that covered a 100 pages or more. In the end Rooks were still Rooks, Knights still knights, and Bish still Bish.
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The game I'm interested in playing seems to be disappearing rather quickly as this attitude takes over. I'm gauging just how much by the responses and praises to the 'mishuns' I'm reading here.
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e286/jdcombs/DA.jpg)
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Looks like properly executed missions to me that can only be done without foresight, and courage by the bad guys.
Didn't we just go through all this before on oh about 10 threads that covered a 100 pages or more.
Yep...and you guys still don't have a clue. :frown:
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The game I'm interested in playing seems to be disappearing rather quickly as this attitude takes over. I'm gauging just how much by the responses and praises to the 'mishuns' I'm reading here.
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e286/jdcombs/DA.jpg)
ROFL!
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oh what I would pay to have all those ground pounders all bunched up within 10 feet of each other and drop the Volkswagen from under the stuka right on their heads...that would make my day :devil
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Yep...and you guys still don't have a clue. :frown:
Clue about what? :rofl :rofl That's a rather baiting comment.
Let me just say I'm going to play the game the way I enjoy it. Fly when I want, what I want or can. GV when I want and try to take bases when I want. As far as I can tell the only thing that brings the game to a low level is some of the outrageous stuff seen posted on these boards. Frankly some people will complain even if you hung them with a new rope.
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oh what I would pay to have all those ground pounders all bunched up within 10 feet of each other and drop the Volkswagen from under the stuka right on their heads...that would make my day :devil
:rofl
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What you consistently fail to comprehend is that the kind of stuff going on in game these days relates to great game play like sitting in the corner with your pud in your hand and yelling "THIS IS GREAT SEX!!". In reality, a circle jerk would probably more accurately describe what is going on in that picture. Substituting stealth and numbers for good tactics and balls of steel is what has been happening.
Oh well, the upshot will probably be the death knell for NOE attacks. At this point, that probably isn't a bad idea.
(btw, get out of the corner....you're gonna go BLIND! :lol)
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The game I'm interested in playing seems to be disappearing rather quickly as this attitude takes over. I'm gauging just how much by the responses and praises to the 'mishuns' I'm reading here.
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e286/jdcombs/DA.jpg)
That is so sad. One of the finest exhibits I've seen amongst a pile of evidence that shows how bad the DA has gotten and the general mentality for that matter. Pitiful.
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How hard is it to understand?
Some guys like takin bases, some guys don't. So what? Who cares?
From all I've read on these BBs, the guys who don't, always act like they are superior players .
You would think that if it bothered them so much, they would pay a little more attention. (SA)
Pretty funny really.
There are some real opportunities for great fights lost in not upping to defend against an noe attack.
I mean really!! How sneaky can it really be?
1st the town starts flashin, then the base starts flashing!!
How much more of an alarm is needed?
The real question is--Why don't the bad guys up and defend??
If no-one ups to defend a flashing base, it most certainly can't be blamed on the noe attack!
Jeeez, they gave ya enough notice!
It's quite simple to understand, and understand it I do.
I personally LOVE talking bases.
I do it quite often.
The BIG difference between you and me is when I am heading towards an enemy base and I see a large dar bar pop up I think "WOOT! This is gonna be fun!" whereas you think "Durn, now I gotta look for a diff. base to attack because they are defending this one".
The absolute BEST is when the bad guys slightly outnumber the friendlies. Nothing move satisfying than fighting hard for a base slightly outnumbered and winning. Those captures are made just so much sweeter because of it.
Know what that feels like? I'm betting not. (if you DID you would be promoting THAT style of gameplay)
I logged on last night and saw a huge nme dar bar at a base (a34 IIRC) and they had it fully capped. Field ack was down, VH dead, and 20-30 bad guys swarming all over the field. (a WELL known Bish "base taking" <snicker> squad)
I spawned in a whirble and headed to town with a couple others.
I watched that huge horde get stopped cold by 1/2 to 1/3 it's numbers and they failed to take the field.
Shortly after the same hoard attacked another base. (undefended of course. a33 IIRC)
This same hoard was met with roughly 1/2 to 1/3 it's numbers and again was stopped cold.
Later in another arena myself and roughly 5-6 friendlies encountered 8-10 players from one of those 'famous' bish base taking squads. It was a slaughter. Rusty as heck from not flying for over a month I scored 20+ kills in 4 sorties vs. one death.
Wanna know why?
The vast majority of people that fly around in these huge packs are pretty clueless about how to fight. The REASON they are so inept at fighting is (duh) they fly around in huge hoard's and attack undefended fields. You can't learn how to fight if you are constantly in a pack with a huge number advantage.
As I said last month I challenge these squads that constantly run these noe hoard missions to run those same missions vs. large nme dar bars. You will STILL have the number advantage, and there is no GOOD reason why you can't succeed every time.
This will have a twofold effect.
1) Those clueless noobs will get some great fighting experience and might eventually figure out what they are doing.
2) It would increase the level of gameplay for all involved. (I mean, who doesn't like a good fight after all)
The argument of "the base was flashing, what more do you need" is really quite pathetic.
There are not 20-30 players sitting in the tower just waiting to see towns flashing so they can up and defend.
It's a bull crud cop out for a horrible style of gameplay.
You RUN those types of raids because if you actually have to attack a defended field you are going to fail. And the REASON you are going to fail is your style of gameplay doesn't promote players to actually have to learn to fight.
I "get" why you run them. I always have. I fully understand that learning to fight is HARD and flying around in huge packs attacking undefended fields allows the player involved to skip the whole "practice for a year or two and figure out how to fight" stage. It's a copout. It's for the lazy and uninspired. It's for the players that want to have faux success at something but...
Let us not kid ourselves here.
By doing this you REALLY are not accomplishing anything. Took the base? (there is always another one) Reset the map? (there will be another up in 5min). The "war" is never ending. Nothing is really "won" as far as the "war" is concerned.
Catch those same players in a 1 on 1 and what happens? They die. Quickly. So they go back to the hoard so they can at least feel like they were successfull at the game. The cycle continues and those players will always be easy kills because they never take the time to figure out how to win a fair fight.
What happened to the pride squads used to have flying out to meet the bad guys head on?
I am sad to say those days are almost gone and the game is lessened for it.
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It's quite simple to understand, and understand it I do.
I personally LOVE talking bases.
I do it quite often.
The BIG difference between you and me is when I am heading towards an enemy base and I see a large dar bar pop up I think "WOOT! This is gonna be fun!" whereas you think "Durn, now I gotta look for a diff. base to attack because they are defending this one".
The absolute BEST is when the bad guys slightly outnumber the friendlies. Nothing move satisfying than fighting hard for a base slightly outnumbered and winning.
Know what that feels like? I'm betting not.
problem is, your little scenario right here is 99% of the time pure fiction, you wont get a capture without the element of surprise.. damn sure not against superior numbers, for the exact reason stated before... as soon as the enemy recognize whats going on, they will totally ignore all fighters and bombers and focus their attack on the goon(s)
Your glorified mano e mano BS wont happen, if your lucky you will get a few picks killing LAs that are oblivious to you as they hurtle towards the C47s, but not much more than that..
in then end your massive well planned mission is an absolute an utter failure because within 1 minute of your arrival all your goons are dead from kamikaze attacks. after that if your lucky you might get a cap on the airfield and get a vulch going.. how wonderful and honorable that is... good fights there seeing who cant pop the guy at the runways spawn first, YAY! Or the opposition will simply choose to totally ignore you and stop even trying to take off, knowing full well the spine of your attack is broken and you cant get another goon to town before it starts popping anyway. roll a wirble or 3 to town, your screwed forget it.
meanwhile, in the same amount of time 1/4 the amount of people have taken 3 of your bases while you flail helplessly in your valiant attempt at getting one..
at least you can pat yourself on the back while your waiting on the map to reset.
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Why is it so important to get people playing 'your' way? People that think like you are here already and playing. Find them and give each other what you want. Whining about it makes you look worse. :devil
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problem is, your little scenario right here is 99% of the time pure fiction, you wont get a capture without the element of surprise.. damn sure not against superior numbers, for the exact reason stated before... as soon as the enemy recognize whats going on, they will totally ignore all fighters and bombers and focus their attack on the goon(s)
Your glorified mano e mano BS wont happen, if your lucky you will get a few picks killing LAs that are oblivious to you as they hurtle towards the C47s, but not much more than that..
in then end your massive well planned mission is an absolute an utter failure because within 1 minute of your arrival all your goons are dead from kamikaze attacks. after that if your lucky you might get a cap on the airfield and get a vulch going.. how wonderful and honorable that is... good fights there seeing who cant pop the guy at the runways spawn first, YAY! Or the opposition will simply choose to totally ignore you and stop even trying to take off, knowing full well the spine of your attack is broken and you cant get another goon to town before it starts popping anyway. roll a wirble or 3 to town, your screwed forget it.
meanwhile, in the same amount of time 1/4 the amount of people have taken 3 of your bases while you flail helplessly in your valiant attempt at getting one..
at least you can pat yourself on the back while your waiting on the map to reset.
Maybe you make your plan so that the goonS arrive 15 minutes AFTER the attack, and at 5-7 k altitude. This way, goon hunters are low and ineffective. Can you use SKILL to hold the attack in place long enough for your goon to arrive? Try it, not only does it work, the thrill of holding off the enemy is a pretty good rush. Problem is, can you guys fight as well as you talk? :D
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As I have always said...
If you don't want the bad guys to fight back, ya' might as well play offline and capture fields to your heart content.
THIS game is about combat.
Specifically Aerial Combat.
Why so many people fly around trying to avoid bad guys is beyond me.
Never understood it.
AMEN!
Least amount of effort for the most results. That is the game for too many people. The minute you see one of these and repel the first wave, rather than battle it out, they regroup and try it at another undefended base.
Beginning to think that WW2OL's attrition system was a pretty god idea after all.
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Maybe you make your plan so that the goonS arrive 15 minutes AFTER the attack, and at 5-7 k altitude. This way, goon hunters are low and ineffective. Can you use SKILL to hold the attack in place long enough for your goon to arrive? Try it, not only does it work, the thrill of holding off the enemy is a pretty good rush. Problem is, can you guys fight as well as you talk? :D
15 min AFTER attack town, hangars, VH is popping.. mission fail.
you bring goons in at 5-7 k the troops will get shot, guaranteed.. mission fail.
try to "escort" the goons down from 5-7k.. they will get killed, even if you outnumber the enemy 5 to 1...
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problem is, your little scenario right here is 99% of the time pure fiction, you wont get a capture without the element of surprise.. damn sure not against superior numbers, for the exact reason stated before... as soon as the enemy recognize whats going on, they will totally ignore all fighters and bombers and focus their attack on the goon(s)
Your glorified mano e mano BS wont happen, if your lucky you will get a few picks killing LAs that are oblivious to you as they hurtle towards the C47s, but not much more than that..
in then end your massive well planned mission is an absolute an utter failure because within 1 minute of your arrival all your goons are dead from kamikaze attacks. after that if your lucky you might get a cap on the airfield and get a vulch going.. how wonderful and honorable that is... good fights there seeing who cant pop the guy at the runways spawn first, YAY! Or the opposition will simply choose to totally ignore you and stop even trying to take off, knowing full well the spine of your attack is broken and you cant get another goon to town before it starts popping anyway. roll a wirble or 3 to town, your screwed forget it.
meanwhile, in the same amount of time 1/4 the amount of people have taken 3 of your bases while you flail helplessly in your valiant attempt at getting one..
at least you can pat yourself on the back while your waiting on the map to reset.
That might be YOUR experience, but don't speak for me.
We are in two totally different worlds it seems when it comes to gameplay.
I get those captures. I have the knowledge, skill, and ability to make those captures happen. (and of course it helps if I have the support of some others that also have said ability, skill and knowledge. such as most any pilot in the WidowMakers <excepting NwBie of course> and one of the best goon pilots in the game <Spacer>)
Sure it might take a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th (5th, 6th) effort, but I will get the capture.(most the time) And the capture is all the much sweeter because I/we had to work for it.
It's not the quantity, it's the quality.
Who really gives a flip if I COULD HAVE taken 5 undefended fields. Like I previously said, you might as well fly offline if that is the kind of action you want. Where is the fun in toolsheding some field with little to no bad guys there? (boooooring)
Me? I want to FIGHT for the field. I WANT them to up and defend and defend valliantly.
If you are failing 99% of the time then it SOUNDS like you and yours need to train. Train hard and practice for 6 months and you will see you maybe only fail 75% of the time. Keep at it and practice for another year or so and it might drop to 50%. (see what i'm getting at?)
I GUESS you could cop out and fly the path of least resistence and hoard up and attack NOE. But by doing so when you have to actually fight for the base, you are going to fail.
99% of the time.
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1st the town starts flashin, then the base starts flashing!!
How much more of an alarm is needed?
The real question is--Why don't the bad guys up and defend??
If no-one ups to defend a flashing base, it most certainly can't be blamed on the noe attack!
Jeeez, they gave ya enough notice!
OMG! OMG!!! One of our countries one hundered and two fields just started flashing :rofl Stop the presses!! Stop the presses!!!
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The only light at the end of the tunnel is that at some point or another..large "horde" base taking will eventually get old as these pilots progress. Sad thing is that there are many that will take their place.
I admit to joining forces in the herd, but time after time of landing with a full rack of ammo just got wayyy to boring.
I find the utmost joy when these "mega" hordes of 50 come to take a base and it only takes 2-3 ppl to take them right back
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OMG! OMG!!! One of our countries one hundered and two fields just started flashing :rofl Stop the presses!! Stop the presses!!!
well, if they ignore it, they lose it..
pretty realistic IMO..
so you thinkbefore the knights take a rook base, they should announce on 200.. "attn rooks, we are going to take a base, please clear your schedule for the next 10 min to stop us, sorry for the inconvenience"
fact of the matter is, not that I expect anyone to admit it, is that NOEs succeed largely due to the malaze of the other team.. maybe your climbing to 25k in your lancs, maybe your busy furballing and shooting other engaged planes, maybe your buisy at 15k looking for that magic 1v1 duel that will make your e-noodle feel larger... whatever... fact of the matter is you IGNORE the OBVIOUS signs that a base is under attack.. then get on here and piss, cry and chest thump about.. :rofl .. how the method by which your base was taken was somehow "lame" .. because it was so effective...
NOEs can be defeated, easily.. but like you said.. everyone on this game wants the path of least resistance, in many cases that means ignoring a base under attack because you know you face an uphill battle..
I guess its much harder and not as fun to defend a base against a superior force, than it is to do nothing, and come on here and flog your tear soaked pillow against the keyboard.
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fact of the matter is, not that I expect anyone to admit it, is that NOEs succeed largely due to the malaze of the other team.. maybe your climbing to 25k in your lancs, maybe your busy furballing and shooting other engaged planes, maybe your buisy at 15k looking for that magic 1v1 duel that will make your e-noodle feel larger... whatever... fact of the matter is you IGNORE the OBVIOUS signs that a base is under attack.. then get on here and piss, cry and chest thump about.. :rofl .. how the method by which your base was taken was somehow "lame" .. because it was so effective...
The ONLY reason the NOE is so effective is that it takes 10-15min to get a defence setup and if the NOE is done right you only need 5-10 for the capture. It's not malaze. You and yours are COUNTING on the nme being occupied elsewhere. (duh) Otherwise you would have to fight for the field and we know what the end result will be if that happens. (at least 99% of the time that is according to you)
I never said a NOE hoard was not effective in capturing a field that is not defended. I AM posing the question why would one want to do it in the first place? Sure the occasion NOE base capture has it's purpose, but it should be the exception not the rule.
I would like you to go back and re-read what I had to say about that stlye of gameplay and what it promotes.
You know what will happen if large squads start doing NOE hoard missions after NOE hoard missions toolshedding undefended fields? We end up with an arena full of skilless noobs pounding their chest about what great base takers they are that die quick if they ever end up in a 1 on 1 fight.
Oh wait...
Never mind that has allready happened.
(and might I add that the group of 8-10 we fought last night and demolished when we had 5-6 was made up of some members of Rolling Thunder. Wouldn't you rather be the 5-6 winning vs. the 8-10? You won't ever figure out how to do that doing NOE raids to undefended fields)
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I understand you're point, and it's vaild IMO, not that it matters coming from me.
But think about how many dogfights were saved from the likes that were tied up doing this, they are in a sandbox right where you need them. Look the other way, welders flash sucks.
There are several ways to look at this, depending on POV.
If there weren't so many bases for them to get lost in a dark corner to do this, it would have be real cool in the middle of that battle, especially with AC too. Equal sides of a battle like that? YA MAN!! A total shame they chose to be off somewhere where it couldn't be appreciated.
Is this event good or bad, I dunno.
>IMO< This is a ripple effect of the arenas just too big, and too many bases, you can't really cover all bases. Me thinks the size is very important. Not that HTC hasn't paid attention to it,....just difference of opinion.
Someone inform me if I tend to seem clueless.
AC and GV Caps on bases. I may have missed whether it was ever implemented in AH or not, I think it was>?
In the other game, caps *were* excellent in keeping battles somewhat more even over the map. If the battles were spread more even, someone would have been there, or close enough, enjoying a great slaughter. Milk running is hard in a slightly cramped map.
>IMO< Unlimited is arcadeish. This is an element that distracts from History and reality for me. It more enables things like this,.. good or bad.
Organize a real solution. It would make it easier for the Cods of the game to make valued changes. They tried this and that, maybe it's proven "that" was better. <shrug> Majority rules from what I understand. Just don't get retarded about it.
How many GVs or AC did a normal base supply at a time in RL? 30 tanks sounds within reason.
How about a FR arena, where all the AC and Map settings were more realistic (no flight aids)? Has any of this been tried before?
If all we do is base things on what the easy-mode peeps want, the game can only move backwards, and I see that motion starting to happen, to be honest. If you can't ignore the easy-mode peeps, give the vets something they can form to their liking. Why does what someone spent $120 on take away from those who have spent $700 or more on subscriptions and time invested? I hate seeing a perfect thing destroyed because there are more game-box types then real simmers. The actions chases more vets out and we have this cycle.
Ok maybe I shouldn't have said that, but I did.
Here's another thought, if they don't give you an something like an FR,...Involve your selves in more events\scenarios. Most of you sound like you'd be better off in events. If there are not enough events,...make one, join the team. Maybe that's where arena vets need to graduate to.
Rule # 2: Arenas are just for practice.
ANimL
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...the "great" landgrab warriors!
Rolling undefended fields like Thunder across the valley.
The true elite Raptors of the Aces High skies.
The il2 just doesn't have enough ammo...
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e286/jdcombs/TANKS.gif)
Oh if only the VH had been up..they would all be dead. :( :pray
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The BIG difference between you and me is when I am heading towards an enemy base and I see a large dar bar pop up I think "WOOT! This is gonna be fun!" whereas you think "Durn, now I gotta look for a diff. base to attack because they are defending this one"
We're probably not as different as you would think.
You're assuming an awful lot about people (including me) you don't even know.
How the hell can you say that I ( and others) don't enjoy some of the same things in this game that you do?
You think you're the only one in this game that likes to fight?
Snap out of it, just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong.
Believe me, theres nothing I like less than flying Noe for a couple sectors to a base, then having no one up to defend.
Theres one word for that ---BORING.
There are guys out there that actually enjoy that type of play--but I think that most will grow out of it in time. (or not)
I'm neither endorsing or denouncing that type of play , to each their own.
I guess it bothers some people more than others.
Personally, I DO pay attention to the map as much as I can.
I have a really good time defending a base. And if I have to stop what I'm doing to do it, so be it! Or not.
Now if ya wanna start talking bout things that irk ME!! Lets talk P-51s!! LoL !
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OMG! OMG!!! One of our countries one hundered and two fields just started flashing :rofl Stop the presses!! Stop the presses!!!
Hey If you don't care about it, then don't bother.
But then, don't complain about it either.
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Just change the nonsense NOE stuff.
would stop these 20m off the deck basepwns. They might be forced to use heavy bombers and fighters,,,,at altitude to attack a target. teh horror :confused:
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You are a better man than I lute. I would not have typed all that knowing that it will fall on deaf ears.
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...the "great" landgrab warriors!
Rolling undefended fields like Thunder across the valley.
The true elite Raptors of the Aces High skies.
The il2 just doesn't have enough ammo...
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e286/jdcombs/TANKS.gif)
Your statement is wrong...this field is not "undefended" the il2 is upping thus providing some defence. :aok
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In all honesty 1Boner I only "sort of" know you and your playing style, and my comment was a tad unfair towards you.
You are right that I can't read your mind or judge your intentions.
I can only go by what I have seen and again in all fairness I can not say that I know what your actions/intentions are every time you up and fly. We very well could be more alike than different and probably are.
So yes a lot of what I am posting here are sweeping generalizations that probably are not 100% accurate. But there is a lot of truth to them.
I have had many members of these NOE hoard bases squads come to me asking for tips, advice and training so my blanket statements do not cover all of the members of these squads.
What I AM trying to point out is an attitude that has become prevalent in the arenas for the past few years.
You have to admit a LOT of this playing style was started with the BOPs years ago before the arena split.
They were the in the forefront of the huge hoard vs. the undefended base style that has become almost the norm now in the MA. Attacking a field that is undefended and moving on when they encountered resistance was the BOP's "reputation". That is not a flame, that is merely the truth of it.
I am neither crying nor whining about it.
I will say I AM saddened by it.
(killnu)
I do hope that some player might read what I post and a light bulb goes off in their heads and they think "hmmm... he might have a point. I WOULD like to be able to kill more than I die and I would like to learn how to fight". That is the first step down a long road with a steep learning curve but the end game is more than worth it. If just one player starts down that path because of my many wall o' texts it was worth the cramped fingers.
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The ONLY reason the NOE is so effective is that it takes 10-15min to get a defence setup and if the NOE is done right you only need 5-10 for the capture. It's not malaze. You and yours are COUNTING on the nme being occupied elsewhere. (duh) Otherwise you would have to fight for the field and we know what the end result will be if that happens. (at least 99% of the time that is according to you)
I never said a NOE hoard was not effective in capturing a field that is not defended. I AM posing the question why would one want to do it in the first place? Sure the occasion NOE base capture has it's purpose, but it should be the exception not the rule.
I would like you to go back and re-read what I had to say about that stlye of gameplay and what it promotes.
You know what will happen if large squads start doing NOE hoard missions after NOE hoard missions toolshedding undefended fields? We end up with an arena full of skilless noobs pounding their chest about what great base takers they are that die quick if they ever end up in a 1 on 1 fight.
Oh wait...
Never mind that has allready happened.
(and might I add that the group of 8-10 we fought last night and demolished when we had 5-6 was made up of some members of Rolling Thunder. Wouldn't you rather be the 5-6 winning vs. the 8-10? You won't ever figure out how to do that doing NOE raids to undefended fields)
You have got to be kidding. Your bragging about all your skill and knowledge, and yet you state it takes 15 minutes to mount a defense.
Fred
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In both cases the other 1/2 are at the town.
These squads have reason to be proud of themselves!
I salute you. :salute
Or in your words... "oink".
Wow that is Rooks and Bish. We dont even fly Rook or Bish....DOH :aok Not very smart are ya!
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You have got to be kidding. Your bragging about all your skill and knowledge, and yet you state it takes 15 minutes to mount a defense.
Fred
Think that one through a bit there bmwgs, it really is a ridiculous statement. You tell me how long it takes to get 10-15 players together to mount a defence. You act like there is always a couple dozen players just sitting in a tower somewhere waiting for an alert call to be put out. Point out to me exactly where I am wrong in my assessment. (i'm not)
Granted, I understand you trying to justify your actions, but please stick with the reality of the situation and that is that you and yours NEED that 10-15min of time it takes to get a defence up or your attack will fail (as your squaddie put it) 99% of the time.
The ONLY reason a NOE attack is successfully is that 10-15min it takes to gather the forces to defend against it.
I'm good but even I can't make defenders appear out of thin air. Most players are in the middle of something else and as we both know the NOE hoard raid is COUNTING on that fact.
(sigh)
as far as "bragging" I would refer you to my sig.
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Wow that is Rooks. We dont even fly Rook....DOH :aok Not very smart are ya!
Keep reading until you realize it's not about highlighting a specific squad, but a detrimental attitude shared by many. POTW wasn't the only squad I made reference to. Though I have some nice screen shots of your horde "mishuns" tonight.
"Oink".
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You included us when you said Oink. :rolleyes:
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Yes, I did. What are you not understanding?
These large squads need to realize what sort of influence they have on game play (and MY $15) when forming up in squads or "wings" (read hordes) and generally pillaging any sort of sport in the fight. Assuming they even allow/seek a fight as a side show to their "map rolling skillz". It's fairly obvious to me what will happen if this trend continues. It's already happening. The spirit of the dogfight is dying.
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Heres a few thoughts from my viewpoint:
First of all I like the big maps. They allow all sorts of different styles of gameplay in the same sandbox. Moreso than the samll maps do.
Second, while I have only ever participated in a couple of NOE missions and I can count the number of organized missions that I've participated in overall in AH on one or two hands I don't really have a huge problem with the inept doing it. There are certain squads that I've defended against successfully single handed and there's no greater sense of gratification that wiping out an entire squad by youself.
Third, I'm a Bish so this isn't isolated to a single country.
My final thought is that yes, this has largley contributed to the deteriation of the game. Not specifically NOE but hoarding in general. I totally understand the allure of safety in numbers. I really do appreciate the newer players who actually attempt to learn to fly and fight. I look forward to occasional great fights against those players. At the same time, I look forward to clubbing the clueless baby seal hoardlings.
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Think that one through a bit there bmwgs, it really is a ridiculous statement. You tell me how long it takes to get 10-15 players together to mount a defence. You act like there is always a couple dozen players just sitting in a tower somewhere waiting for an alert call to be put out. Point out to me exactly where I am wrong in my assessment. (i'm not)
Granted, I understand you trying to justify your actions, but please stick with the reality of the situation and that is that you and yours NEED that 10-15min of time it takes to get a defence up or your attack will fail (as your squaddie put it) 99% of the time.
The ONLY reason a NOE attack is successfully is that 10-15min it takes to gather the forces to defend against it.
I'm good but even I can't make defenders appear out of thin air. Most players are in the middle of something else and as we both know the NOE hoard raid is COUNTING on that fact.
(sigh)
as far as "bragging" I would refer you to my sig.
OK, I gave it some thought. I can't count the times that an alert has gone out on county text and within 2 minutes 20 planes up with as many GV's, assuming the hangers are up. I can't count the number of times that I have seen bases defended in this manner. You might need 15 minutes to get a Typhoon up to 15,000 feet to have an advantage though.
As for your countrymen (chess pieces) not coming to assist when the call goes out, well, not much I can say about that, it also happens to us.
I also like the way you say I have to justify MY ACTIONS. What actions are you referring to? Are you saying that all I do is fly NOE missions? If you are, then it goes to show how little you really know.
With Due Respect :salute
Fred
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But but but folks, We did about 20 missions one day of what I would call In-Your-Face missions and Rooks and Knights both backed down. Several were into areas of 2 full dar bars. I thought wow, this is going to be fun. Guess what, they all towered. Now if we, bish, are such skilless dweebs why did they do that? Oh btw they complained about that. We did this at 15 on the map where 15 is a large base and also a port. Rooks had the cv there and were constantly resupplying the field. They had a high cap of 262s, tempests, and p51s. All the uber planes they could muster. Ghi put up a mission of just 12 p38s. Only 12 mind you. We sunk the cv and took down all the hangers and captured the field in like 10 minutes. Then you want to complain about a few NOEs. If I were you guys I would look within to solve your problems instead of trying to conform everyone to your set of rules here on the forums.
As far as base defense goes I've seen a handful of Bish hold off 2 dar bars of rooks and knights. I bet they do that more than iRookies and Knits combined.
Recently, after leaving Rolling Thunder I thought about going back to Rooks. I thought well they have too many mouths and chest thumpers. I could just squelch them though. But then I was at a base where a handful of Bish were holding off 2 dar bars of rooks. The only thing the Rooks were into was vulching and picking and they weren't doing a good job of that. Every now and then a single rook would take a swipe at town. After being there an hour sitting in a ww I just rolled back to base and went elsewhere. Then I thought what was I thinking and I dropped the whole idea of going rooks.
Back to NOEs, Those are the easiest missions to stop if you are alert. If you're not then that is your fault. I saw where rooks did a bunch of NOEs the other day on the Trinity map. I didn't see one complaint about those here. Didn't matter we had all those bases back a couple of hours later. It seems it's only bad if bish do them. According to the rules trying to be laid out here one Noe is okay, 2 is bad, and 3 is just way wrong. :rofl :rofl
Addendum: What really slays me is that I see people on this thread that don't hardly ever play in the MA's and yet they want to comment on the play. You know they have a furball arena. You can pick in there like you can in here and you can't take bases (I think). Maybe even find a duel if that is what you are into. I learned a week into this game that dueling skills don't do it. You are almost guaranteed to get picked. So nothing has changed and unfortunately we still have the whiners too.
Let me tell you about whiners and this applies to real life as well. They are going to find something to whine about no matter what. If you cater to one problem they will whine about another, if you cater to that they move to the next. They never ever take responsibility for their own destiny or rely on their own problem solving skills. Everything is some one else's fault. When I look back over my life and see the many mistakes I made at least I can say I did them and I was responsible for the solutions. I'm also responsible for my fun. Not Lute, not Scotch, not Nobaddy nor anyone else. Just me! Try real hard to learn that and you will be much happier people.
And I want to thank you all for giving the bish the power over your fun. We'll take good care of it I assure you. Do you think Scotch will have fun if we take this base. Yes. alright lets take it for Scotch. About if we pick nobaddy. Most definitely he will have fun. Alright lets pick him. Yeah!
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Yep and I have a screen shot of you sleeping in your Spixteen Scotch. Whoopee you have a screen shot and want me to play YOUR game. I will do what I like with my money and you will never be able to change that. By the way,did you not see the post by Sol that says we are not just about taking bases or hording? The POTW do it all.
I do seem to remember that some of the bases we took tonight were defended very well. Hats off to the defence for making it harder for us to do what we planned.
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Buzzard, what a great signature line!
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Shhhhhhhh!!!! Don't tell anyone. I stole it :D
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somebody types "A23 is flashing" but they themselves don't go there.. figuring someone else will go, they called it out, did their part.
Happens frequently to me, and guess why? I'm already airborne, deep in enemy airspace, at least 15 mins away from any friendly field to land on. The only thing I can do at that point is to alert my current fellow countrymen.
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If AH is going to continue down this road of mega hordes grinding out bases, I think a few changes should be made
1. Get rid of NOE via dar bar
-It is not a realistic idea to simply say, if you don't want your base taken, defend it. If you have 40 guys attacking from NOE, what possible type of defense can be mounted. Mission guys have long periods of time to form mission..defenders typically have only minutes to up a massive defensive force, before everything on the field is destroyed.
2. Arena alert for missions upping/mass uppings from field
-Goes along with 1., and though mission planners still have unlimited time to plan mission, the defenders now have a smaller window time to mount defense, but at least have a chance to field some troops.
These hordes should have close to 100% success rate...It's really hard to imagine that these missions even fail....
Even a base taking sim needs to have some form of defense...other than suicide bomb'n' bail, pork'n'auger other fields.
Base taking strategy should be more than getting as many people as you can and ramming everyone down the throat of the enemy who doesn't know your there in the first place or enough time to respond.
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Tell you what, for anyone that is concerned about the detriment of game play, and feels that the sprit of dog fighting is fading away. Just take a new player under your wing and teach him/her the ropes of dog fighting, furballing, ect. Instead of saying; use alt+f4 for god mode, invisibility, bomb sight, go to the training arena and so on. The complaints about the land grab part of the game are getting old. If you like the game enough and want it to be played more like you want it to, put something into it other than your $14.95 a month. I for one enjoy the game, and enjoy helping folks out. I just took on a new squad member and he was very appreciative of the hour I spent with him getting him set up properly, teaching him some maneuvers and tactics, and didn't take much effort at all, just a little patience. This is an online game played with people who want to have fun, either DO something about it, quit, or just be quiet. Like I said before, these topics are getting old.
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Like I said before, these topics are getting old.
Amen!!
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Tell you what, for anyone that is concerned about the detriment of game play, and feels that the sprit of dog fighting is fading away. Just take a new player under your wing and teach him/her the ropes of dog fighting, furballing, ect. Instead of saying; use alt+f4 for god mode, invisibility, bomb sight, go to the training arena and so on. The complaints about the land grab part of the game are getting old. If you like the game enough and want it to be played more like you want it to, put something into it other than your $14.95 a month. I for one enjoy the game, and enjoy helping folks out. I just took on a new squad member and he was very appreciative of the hour I spent with him getting him set up properly, teaching him some maneuvers and tactics, and didn't take much effort at all, just a little patience. This is an online game played with people who want to have fun, either DO something about it, quit, or just be quiet. Like I said before, these topics are getting old.
You know, there is nothing wrong voicing your opinion of how a game is. There is no reason you have to be bothered to read the thread. Many guys here do take people under their wing and show them the ropes. At the same time, others are recruiting noobs and instilling the idea of the "horde rules". Many people in this thread don't use the old alt+f4 trick, and of everyone strat guys are just as guilty of this than anyone else...sometimes I think more so. As for the topic getting old, so are the hordes, especially seeing them in the DA for gods sake. I guess if it's your 14.95, you shouldn't care about anyone else's. So you should also respect my 14.95 as you need even less to post on this BB.
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if an NOE comes in and the base is totally undefended its purely the fault of the defenders (or lack there of)..
why are NOEs so effective?
well it plays out as such:
somebody types "A23 is flashing" but they themselves don't go there.. figuring someone else will go, they called it out, did their part.
then as it keeps flashing.. those hundred plus people who saw the message that A23 is flashing, ignore it, figuring others will respond, they are buisy.
finally as the mission "hits" someone goes to the tower and says "ALERT NOE! A23" by then the base is capped and the town is getting obliterated.. even then almost nobody upps for the last ditch effort at defense..
probably because they already logged out to come make a post about how lame NOEs are :aok
qft :aok
NOEs are the easiest attack to defend against after a pure GV assault. up from the attacked base and your co-E within 2min of lifting. up from the next base and you have a high CAP over the field in 5-10mins to nail any reinforcements.
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You can play the way you want to play..its your 15$.
what is interpreted as a "whine" from a majority of the community and mostly all the vets is actually a question of "why arent you trying to challenge yourself?"
If the object of the game is to have fun, there are many aspects to choose from here to have your fun..I say, try them all. What Lute is saying in his threads, I can agree 100%. when you fly in the middle of 100 freindlies, things are going to come to you much easier and you will never learn taking the easy route.
NOEs will never go away and Im glad they wont. We need those landgrabbers in every country or we will get stuck with the same maps over and over. If your squad is based on taking undefended real estate over and over agian to "win the war", I have to say it really wont get you too much respect with the community. How will it if they werent able to get the oppurtunity to fight you?
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Wow nice to find out its my FAULT for not upping from a base when 40 planes are under 5 miles away. And in the GV screen shot im sure the VH went down before that mission started :noid Maybe the AW Sector Full my do something to help this, Also Maybe closing some fields when numbers are low and when more log on open some up. :cool:
Crims
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Would be interesting if HTC could do a tour where no base taking was involved and the focus was put on combat. I think alot of gameplay styles would evolve, and people would savor the fights over the NOE. I join NOE missions once in a while, (I'm always the noob popping dar) :) But hordes are just getting to be too much for me.
I see an NOE mission come in. I up a La-7 to try and start picking them off. I don't even get to the town before I have 20 110s going for the HO shot on me. Now...Do you really think they're trying to fight? No. They're doing a combination of two things. Eliminating opposition alltogeather, and trying like hell to beat the horde to the poor sap upping, in hopes to land two kills and get their name in lights.
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Would be interesting if HTC could do a tour where no base taking was involved and the focus was put on combat. I think alot of gameplay styles would evolve, and people would savor the fights over the NOE. I join NOE missions once in a while, (I'm always the noob popping dar) :) But hordes are just getting to be too much for me.
I see an NOE mission come in. I up a La-7 to start picking them off. I don't even get to the town before I have 20 110s going for the HO shot on me. Now...Do you really think they're trying to fight? No. They're doing a combination of two things. Eliminating opposition alltogeather, and trying like hell to beat the horde to the poor sap upping, in hopes to land two kills and get their name in lights.
Oh, I imagine he will get around to it. The plan is for the very last tour ever to be this way. Even if he doesn't plan it that way, that's the way it will be.
I never carry a bomb, fly a bomber, drive a GV. I could care less who owns what field. However, I do recognize how intensely boring and repetitive pure furball between the two closest fields would be.
Aces High is successful because of broad appeal. Lessen the scope of that appeal and you lessen the success.
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well, if they ignore it, they lose it..
pretty realistic IMO..
Hey If you don't care about it, then don't bother.
But then, don't complain about it either.
Neither being the point I was poking fun at. It's the difference of an 82 sector map vs a 400 sector map. On baltic many contrymen are going to spot any attack on those limited number of fields. On trinity or equinox, not so much.
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I just have to add that I understand the "it's hard to muster a defense" argument but IMHO the Bish are generally very good at it. I was just thinking yesterday that when an alert goes out on Bish country channel you see Bish pouring out of the hangers in defence. This is particularily true of the Bish GV crowd but not exclusive to them. I've watched and helped the Bish put up some incredible base defenses with little or no notice on several occasions over just the past two days and, for the most part, have held onto the fields in question. It makes you proud of your country to be able to do this time after time. <S> Bish.
Where the "hard to muster a defense" situation comes into play is generally when we are outnumbered by one or both sides, but then it's hard to defend everything anyway no matter how it's attacked.
A few observations regarding the differences in the countries; The worst in this area is the Rooks IMHO. If they are distracted elsewhere you can roll half the Rook country with a small handful of guys. Rooks are also more likely than Nits to run hoard missions and roll undefended territory. While the Nits lack the organization to play the land grab game effectively they seem to have displaced the Rooks as the premier furballing country.
Of course these generalizations aren't nessesarily true of every player or squad in a given country.
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Tell you what, for anyone that is concerned about the detriment of game play, and feels that the sprit of dog fighting is fading away. Just take a new player under your wing and teach him/her the ropes of dog fighting, furballing, ect. Instead of saying; use alt+f4 for god mode, invisibility, bomb sight, go to the training arena and so on. The complaints about the land grab part of the game are getting old. If you like the game enough and want it to be played more like you want it to, put something into it other than your $14.95 a month. I for one enjoy the game, and enjoy helping folks out. I just took on a new squad member and he was very appreciative of the hour I spent with him getting him set up properly, teaching him some maneuvers and tactics, and didn't take much effort at all, just a little patience. This is an online game played with people who want to have fun, either DO something about it, quit, or just be quiet.
Agreed.
You can play the way you want to play..its your 15$.
what is interpreted as a "whine" from a majority of the community and mostly all the vets is actually a question of "why arent you trying to challenge yourself?" - where 'challenge' is defined as something that the veteran might find challenging, NOT as something your average, not-too-skilled player would find challenging.
If the object of the game is to have fun, there are many aspects to choose from here to have your fun..I say, try them all. What Lute is saying in his threads, I can agree 100%. when you fly in the middle of 100 freindlies, things are going to come to you much easier and you will never learn taking the easy route.
NOEs will never go away and Im glad they wont. We need those landgrabbers in every country or we will get stuck with the same maps over and over. If your squad is based on taking undefended real estate over and over agian to "win the war", I have to say it really wont get you too much respect with the community. How will it if they werent able to get the oppurtunity to fight you?
Basically, I think there is something innately satisfying in seeing the text come up in the buffer saying you've captured a base.
I like to fulfill the objectives of a mission that I'm on, which very often may be to capture a base. The essential condition for a successful base capture is simple, and is as follows:
- To allow 10 troops to successfully enter the maproom, with all town objects having been destroyed.
Of course, in addition to that there are multiple other factors which come into play, one of which is that in order to maximise the probability that 10 troops make it to the maproom, you should ideally prevent enemies from approaching those troops. Seeing as most planes in the game can reach 200mph shortly after takeoff, they can cover the distance between the airfield and town in very little time. Unless you have some good sticks involved in your mission, they (the enemy) may be able to reach the town, and kill your troop-carrier/troops. However, the easiest way to ensure that they do not kill your C-47/M-3 etc is to ensure that they never get the chance to leave their airfield, which is where NOE missions (which of course are designed NOT to allow the enemy to launch many aircraft) are so advantageous.
If you ONLY have the flashing base as an indication of an approaching NOE, for all you know it could be a bailed pilot, GV, single enemy landed somewhere nearby. Unless you actually go out and hunt around for a bit, you may not know of the NOE until it has essentially reached the town, by which point it is almost too late (as defending fighters will not have time to gain enough speed and/or altitude to fight, before being swamped by attacking 110s).
I completely understand how, for a seasoned and experienced player, something like this could very quickly be very boring (if he/she were an attacker; as a defender getting vulched is frustrating for anyone), because many of these 'veterans' are so good at the game that those things which challenge a new player (i.e. shooting down ANY enemy by ANY means possible) essentially become repetitive, and so they move on to things which they find harder - such as shooting down an enemy NOT on the first merge, WITHOUT head-ons, USING complicated ACMs.
However, what I don't understand is how (or why) these seasoned, long-time players then FORGET that what's easy for them may be difficult for a new player, and then go on to criticise these less-capable sticks, and then dispute the way in which they play the game. This seems to be accompanied by the long-timers lamenting the 'good old days' when players used to try to fight well, rather than capture bases (another argument I have a problem with).
Presumably, such long time players, a few years back were not very good. In fact, they probably HOed, hoarded etc just like many of today's new players do. However, in time their skills improved, meaning that HOing, taking undefended bases and hoarding became far less challenging, FAR easier, and altogether less appealing to them.
In other words, yesterday's (meaning several years ago) n00bs and HOtards are today's experienced and capable sticks, possible even trainers.
And this is where I come back to the original post that I quoted: in conclusion, this process of n00bs turning into capable pilots could be accelerated if today's veterans would help today's n00bs, and as a consequence, improve gameplay.
Sorry for making that so absurdly long, but I really do think it is relevant, and correct.
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If your squad is based on taking undefended real estate over and over agian to "win the war", I have to say it really wont get you too much respect with the community. How will it if they werent able to get the oppurtunity to fight you?
Like sneaking the rear-corner bases across 150 miles of water in Trinity? :rofl
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NOEs are not about AVOIDING the fight, its about getting a reasonable advantage to give the mission a good chance of success.. if there is 0 resistance, the fault lies with the defenders, there is ample warning.
The so called reasonable advantage is because you avoid the fight. Zero resistance means most were busy in FIGHTS so you get a milkrun out of the deal.
I guess a written invitation and 20 min warning to the defenders should be made. make sure everyone knows whats comeing and when.. that would be REALLY realistic :lol
Nothing realistic about this GAME. The GAME is about the fight. NOE just avoids that as it's basic premise.
Nothing wrong with NOE missions. I can't see how anyone could have fun with them unless your just base takers. If you want a real fight NOE is not the way to go about it.
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Can anyone recall how we took 121 a few weeks back? probably not!!
Ask anyone in our squad about a particular night months ago when we were bish and it was Lynchmob Vs the A8s. The setup was perfect and memorable. Fortunatly, it was both squad night and we were evenly matched. We were on defense and they were trying to take the base and that fight lasted for HOURS. Constant shifting in advantage for both sides and a combination of luck. ( at one point we were forced to man feild guns for defense). It was taken by them but it was the most fun I have had in this game in forever. Salutes kept swarming between both squads and those fights will last a long time in someones memory.
Bases come and go..theres always a new map, a new base and Ive given up the win the war mentality when those bases you fought so hard to grab that only get toolshedded late at night.
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Face it. When a big map comes up after a re-set you already know which bases are the most likely candidates for an NOE run. The only surprise is when.
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15 min AFTER attack town, hangars, VH is popping.. mission fail. Only if you don't have back up, and if the timing is right, they can't drive a GV all the way to the town before your goon gets there anyway.
you bring goons in at 5-7 k the troops will get shot, guaranteed.. mission fail.Only if they are not defended. When attacking the base, if your attack is strong enough with SKILLED players the fight will be low and over the field, not the town. A couple of mid alt fighter to dive on those pesky LAs will run them down long before they can get to the troops.
try to "escort" the goons down from 5-7k.. they will get killed, even if you outnumber the enemy 5 to 1... Do you know how fast a goon can dive? Probably not, yours never get over 300 feet. A goon can dive as fast as a pony and will not rip the wings off. If you dive a mile from town, side slip at the bottom of the dive just over the town, you can do a tight loop dropping troops. This way they land in pairs and get on the ground a bit faster. Then its up to your cover fighters to keep the troops safe.
Granted, doing things this way is not easier, nor is it a "guarantied" type plan. It is more challenging, more satisfying to win the capture due to the fact you had to earn it. All in all more fun for everyone don't you think? Be honest with yourself, how much fun is it to be one of 30-40 guys to roll a base ( you might be lucky to get a couple buildings down), or be one of 5-6 guys trying to vulch the one or two defenders that try to get up.
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Ask anyone in our squad about a particular night months ago when we were bish and it was Lynchmob Vs the A8s. The setup was perfect and memorable. Fortunatly, it was both squad night and we were evenly matched. We were on defense and they were trying to take the base and that fight lasted for HOURS. Constant shifting in advantage for both sides and a combination of luck. ( at one point we were forced to man feild guns for defense). It was taken by them but it was the most fun I have had in this game in forever. Salutes kept swarming between both squads and those fights will last a long time in someones memory.
but... but...
You COULD have taken 10 undefended fields in the time it took to defend 121! How dare you actually FIGHT IT OUT with the nme as opposed to slink away and find some field with no bad guys at it.
Shame on you!
(edit: sounds like it was a blast! I love those types of battles. win loose or draw all involved have a great time. good stuff :aok )
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Well lets start with everyone re-reading animls post in the "why they are leaving thread". Probably the best post I have read in a while.
Then a few comments:
1. The MA HAS become a squad based arena since the introduction of large maps and Numbers...undeniable...I always have 14-15 guys in the nighttime hours to call to help defend a noe or gv assault. AND IT IS FUN!!! Thats the benefit in being in a squad that WORKS TOGETHER! If Scotch insists on being in a squad that only fields 1-2 players at a time...then he may need to a) change squads or b) not oppose missions if it causes him to lose sleep.
2. In both those screenshots Scotch posted for the planes and gvs shown to be available then eny was low. So it begs the question where the other members of that country were....perhaps vulching/ganging another base??? Nice to post isolated screenshots...by my count there were an equal number of countrymen not caring enough to up...and please...how does a gv assault that large reach a base without anyone investigating???? embarrassing really...
3. Who gives a crap really??? I mean besides wmlute, fugitive and a handful of others who always jump in these threads to tell others how to have fun??? Again, if HTC would put a few out of their misery...these threads would end.
4. There are 900+ folks on in the prime hours...my crazy guess is they are having fun...the maps have hundreds of bases...can these incessant posters really not find anyone on dar to "have fun" with??? Is their only fun controlling everyone's gameplay??? Why should a furballer even give a crap if a few bases drop??? Seriously...gut check guys...quit griefing others and find a way to have fun or leave...
5. If there WAS this huge number of guys who only want "the art of dogfighting" to exist why is the AvA unpopulated?? In AW these "more serious" guys played in Full Realism. They had their own community... Of course they constantly reminded the Relaxed Realism players how they took the game much more seriously then the rest of us (stalls, yank n bank etc) But at least they formed their own community within the community and found a way to have fun.
If you really hate noe's then here are a few tips for the "slower" folks:
1. A base is flashing without a dar showing......hmmmmmm
2. The enemy in flight is high but dar bars showing dont add up.....hmmmm
3. An noe occurred about 5 minutes ago......hmmmm
4. There are enemy squads on that like running noe's....hmmmm
5. There are a lot of guys on roster in a squad known for base taking.....hmmm
Too be fair I will help the NOE guys who dont like being "picked" by half these posters:
here are situations to AVOID...run an NOE instead.....
1. There is a 15k niki with wingmen/escorts hovering off your base and Wmlute is on.
2. There is a 15k tempest hanging above the furball and Zazen is pontificating.
3. Your base ack is down and vh is ded and F4U-1c's and 190D9's are hovering 5k over the runway (WoT)
4. There are 2 tempests or 262s B-N-Zing the furball (AoM)
To NOT be completely negative about furballers...SAPP walk the walk...when i am furballing with them I know its all about dogfighting and having fun..IMHO CorkyJr et al were the only furballers who actually furball...I'm sorry he is gone....That IS a loss <S>
Seriously...have the pontificators here ever considered that their behavior discourages what most would consider "furballing" and perhaps lead to the behaviors they object to? And Scotch...trying to vulch my out of gas tempest landing after chasing me back to base really lets me know how much "honor" and "old guard" you really are...
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Agreed.
Basically, I think there is something innately satisfying in seeing the text come up in the buffer saying you've captured a base.
I like to fulfill the objectives of a mission that I'm on, which very often may be to capture a base. The essential condition for a successful base capture is simple, and is as follows:
- To allow 10 troops to successfully enter the maproom, with all town objects having been destroyed.
Of course, in addition to that there are multiple other factors which come into play, one of which is that in order to maximise the probability that 10 troops make it to the maproom, you should ideally prevent enemies from approaching those troops. Seeing as most planes in the game can reach 200mph shortly after takeoff, they can cover the distance between the airfield and town in very little time. Unless you have some good sticks involved in your mission, they (the enemy) may be able to reach the town, and kill your troop-carrier/troops. However, the easiest way to ensure that they do not kill your C-47/M-3 etc is to ensure that they never get the chance to leave their airfield, which is where NOE missions (which of course are designed NOT to allow the enemy to launch many aircraft) are so advantageous.
If you ONLY have the flashing base as an indication of an approaching NOE, for all you know it could be a bailed pilot, GV, single enemy landed somewhere nearby. Unless you actually go out and hunt around for a bit, you may not know of the NOE until it has essentially reached the town, by which point it is almost too late (as defending fighters will not have time to gain enough speed and/or altitude to fight, before being swamped by attacking 110s).
I completely understand how, for a seasoned and experienced player, something like this could very quickly be very boring (if he/she were an attacker; as a defender getting vulched is frustrating for anyone), because many of these 'veterans' are so good at the game that those things which challenge a new player (i.e. shooting down ANY enemy by ANY means possible) essentially become repetitive, and so they move on to things which they find harder - such as shooting down an enemy NOT on the first merge, WITHOUT head-ons, USING complicated ACMs.
However, what I don't understand is how (or why) these seasoned, long-time players then FORGET that what's easy for them may be difficult for a new player, and then go on to criticise these less-capable sticks, and then dispute the way in which they play the game. This seems to be accompanied by the long-timers lamenting the 'good old days' when players used to try to fight well, rather than capture bases (another argument I have a problem with).
Presumably, such long time players, a few years back were not very good. In fact, they probably HOed, hoarded etc just like many of today's new players do. However, in time their skills improved, meaning that HOing, taking undefended bases and hoarding became far less challenging, FAR easier, and altogether less appealing to them.
In other words, yesterday's (meaning several years ago) n00bs and HOtards are today's experienced and capable sticks, possible even trainers.
And this is where I come back to the original post that I quoted: in conclusion, this process of n00bs turning into capable pilots could be accelerated if today's veterans would help today's n00bs, and as a consequence, improve gameplay.
Sorry for making that so absurdly long, but I really do think it is relevant, and correct.
I completly agree with you 100%. but you have to agree that a great percentage of these people dont have the attention span and their only form of gratification is seeing that "feild 23 was captured by the <insert country here>. Problem with that is when your put in that "Shell" for a prolonged period of time, the learning curve becomes that much harder.
I find myself in situations with some good sticks that I dont stand a chance. I get pounced on before I can even get a shot. NO, its not fun. As time progresses, I can see that the more I practice at it..the better I become. I dont want to seek instant gratification all the time..as it stands now..Im awful in fighters, but persistance shows that soon, I can give "vets" a run for their money as long as I keep the attitude to better myself.
as far as the "alt f4" monkeys..well your always going to get them. Personally in my experiences here with the "long timers" has always been a positive one when they are in green.
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That is what makes this game so fun or frustrating (depending on you) is that you cannot control the game. This game is changing everyday and you pretty much have to keep up or get left behind. I like all the scenarios like dogfighting or taking bases or gving or bombing. That's why the game has attracted so many people. :salute to the basetakers or the dogfighters or the ground vehicle guys out there. You are what make this game fun. :salute
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if an NOE comes in and the base is totally undefended its purely the fault of the defenders (or lack there of)..
why are NOEs so effective?
well it plays out as such:
somebody types "A23 is flashing" but they themselves don't go there.. figuring someone else will go, they called it out, did their part.
then as it keeps flashing.. those hundred plus people who saw the message that A23 is flashing, ignore it, figuring others will respond, they are buisy.
finally as the mission "hits" someone goes to the tower and says "ALERT NOE! A23" by then the base is capped and the town is getting obliterated.. even then almost nobody upps for the last ditch effort at defense..
probably because they already logged out to come make a post about how lame NOEs are :aok
If the intent were to fight, the horde would attack a busy, active base. The mere fact that a remote base is targeted is obviously due to not wanting a fight. Any attempt at justifying it any other way is pure baloney.
Next, how many people sit in the tower scanning bases in the rear for possible attack? Very few if any. There are many reasons why a town or base may flash. Most of the time, it's a single GV for a formation of bombers milkrunning.
Finally, when it becomes apparent that it's an NOE horde, there is little time to get airborne. It takes time to get the word out, get enough players to land, auger or otherwise get to the base under attack. Then, even if they do get airborne, the horde is already on the town. So, the defenders start with small numbers and a huge E disadvantage.
The fact is that the majority of players in AH2 at this time have zero ACM skills. They don't have the desire to learn, because learning takes effort and effort is to be avoided at all cost. So, they fly in gangs where the risk of getting singled out is minimal. Yet, many still die; testament to their uber skill set....
There are some things that can offset the increasing mindset of horde mongering.
1) Put several manned, hardened, 88mm or 90mm flak guns on each base. Reach out to the town and pop some 110s. Makes porking a lightly defended base extremely risky.
2) Increased lethality of existing field ack (it's largely ineffective now). Reduce the effectiveness of field porking, if they can't survive more than one pass through the ack.
3) Harden the ammo bunkers. Current bunkers are no more difficult to kill than a barracks. Bunkers are bunkers, they should be hard to kill.
4) Reduce radar height from 500 feet to 200 feet AGL. This will result in more unwanted pop-up darbars and increase the likelihood that dweebs will auger. Offers a better chance to detect an NOE early in the mission.
5) Eliminate perk points for killing structures in attack mode. No perk rewards for killing buildings with 110s, Nikis and the like.
6) Remove shooting structures from Attack hit percentage. Only hits on aircraft or vehicles count towards hit percentage. This will impact score only slightly, but it's something at least.
7) Perk bombs over 500 lbs or 250 kilos in attack mode. If it were to cost 4 perks to suicide bomb... There will be less of it.
8) For all fighters not currently perked, add a 5 point perk to all fighters with an ENY of 8 or less. This will get some of the horde gang into lesser fighters.
9) Heavy bombers (B-17, B-24 and Lancaster) cannot drop bombs unless the player is on the bomb sight. This would stop the dive-bombing heavy bombers.
10) No bomber (bomb sight or otherwise) can drop bombs from F3 view. This would eliminate some of the more gamey behavior.
My regards,
Widewing
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Stop with all that nice talk rip! I don't get the whole noe horde thing either but it is their $15.
I think Lute and the others are right though. There would be a lot more good fights if the player base would at least try.
It sucks getting waxed all the time but eventually you get better. I have helped gang bases long ago and it got incredibly boring.
It is so much more fun fighting for a base than noe swarming it.
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Snip
My regards,
Widewing
Very good post WW, 100% true to the bone
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It seems to me that the fundamental underlying question is what is the purpose of difference points of view concerning gameplay. By this I don't mean "fun" because that is the universal answer by all groups, but more to the point how is that fun defined.
In my little corner of the world base capture isn't really about taking the real estate at all. The base and territory are there to funnel players towards each other so they occupy the same space on the map and thus create player to player conflict. I have no idea if this philosophy is in line with what the folks at HTC are after or not.
To me the discord is that when the absolute goal is the real estate then the most effective methods for achieving that goal almost require tactics and methods that remove as much player verse player conflict as possible. Any spirited defense will slow the rate per time of base captures, if the real estate is the goal then the best thing to do when defense is encountered is to move the point of attack.
Generally speaking I think it's safe to say that most would consider me a furballer, or an ACM junkie (although a poor one at that). In most cases the strategic state of The War don't concern me as much as logging on for a few hours and trying to find a good fight or two. The reason for this is because after playing this game for I don't know how long (10 years since AH1 beta?) there is one part of gameplay that still offers a challenge and something to learn (and judging by the number of times I get whooped on a daily basis I'll be playing for some time to come). I think I've looked at this situation from a fairly neutral point of view but I am approaching the situation from the side of the furballers.
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8) For all fighters not currently perked, add a 5 point perk to all fighters with an ENY of 8 or less. This will get some of the horde gang into lesser fighters.
I can only imagine the epic whines. :O
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It seems to me that the fundamental underlying question is what is the purpose of difference points of view concerning gameplay. By this I don't mean "fun" because that is the universal answer by all groups, but more to the point how is that fun defined.
In my little corner of the world base capture isn't really about taking the real estate at all. The base and territory are there to funnel players towards each other so they occupy the same space on the map and thus create player to player conflict. I have no idea if this philosophy is in line with what the folks at HTC are after or not.
To me the discord is that when the absolute goal is the real estate then the most effective methods for achieving that goal almost require tactics and methods that remove as much player verse player conflict as possible. Any spirited defense will slow the rate per time of base captures, if the real estate is the goal then the best thing to do when defense is encountered is to move the point of attack.
This may help lend some insight.
Some play the game to fulfill the actual parameters that it was designed for, which is to overcome and conquer bases, and eventually the country, thus winning the war/game.
This is a false assumption...
The game was designed to have fun at different types of combat. Conquering bases is just a means to promote combat and hence fun. But by no means is it more or less justified than going out and just mixing it up.
HiTech
and at the same time...
FALCONWING: Please do not confuse my post as bop bashing. I have never stated the Bops wanted to always be on the country side with numbers. Nore do I belive game play like the Bops "win the war" stratagy is a bad thing. Nor do I belive coradinating tatics as a bad thing.
This is exatly the same as I view the laz type game play, I do not belive wanting to just find the closest fight is a bad thing either.
I allso do not belive country or squad loaylty is a bad thing.
All have there place In AH.
But problems arise when any of the above are taken to excess.
For instance lets look at what I view as Laz's ideal arena taken to exess.
Air starts 5k off deck. No bombers,no scoring , artifical box aound the play field, that if you run you are blown up. All planes turning style planes, with no planes faster than others.
This would create one fast paced, continues quick action furball. But what are the side effects.
1. New players would burn out fairly quickly.
2. Will to live dimisish greatly.
3. You never get that successfull feeling of beating the odds, and living to tell the tail.
4. You have very little time to socialize with other players.
So while some furballers would say, hey thats all good stuff, I belive AH would be dead long ago if thats all it was.
It is my belief that creating an "Air force" like the Bop's is a also form of exess.
So I don't view your post as "suspicion".
I do view it as you put
1. Loyalty to "Air Force".
2. Loyalty to "Country"
3. Creating a Sudo realy Air Force, with simalar rules.
4. Creating one of the larger Air Forces in AH.
Above the need for ah's over all game play.
And your post while not stating the above resones I see it as an attempt to try put your rules above AH's game play. I also do not think that you are trying to do this dilibertaly (I.E. I do not believe you think My way or AH be damed)
I view you more like,
These would be your thoughts.
"I see problems like Imbalance , lower arena limits,less friendly arenas then of old. But I think that we can change other things to still let me implemnt my "Air force" pryorities.
What I believe you do not see , is simply you have taken it to exess.
HiTech
My interpretation is that one "style" of gameplay is as valid as another, until they are taken to the extreme and start harming overall gameplay.
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Thats the reason the Lynchmob left the bish the whole 60 person horde mentality goin after undefended bases was embarrasing and we didnt want any part of that.We prefer a good fight. what takes them 50+ guys to do we can do with 4 or 5 guys and a few planes undefended bases are easy no skill involved in takeing one of them.
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If the intent were to fight, the horde would attack a busy, active base. The mere fact that a remote base is targeted is obviously due to not wanting a fight. Any attempt at justifying it any other way is pure baloney.
Next, how many people sit in the tower scanning bases in the rear for possible attack? Very few if any. There are many reasons why a town or base may flash. Most of the time, it's a single GV for a formation of bombers milkrunning.
Finally, when it becomes apparent that it's an NOE horde, there is little time to get airborne. It takes time to get the word out, get enough players to land, auger or otherwise get to the base under attack. Then, even if they do get airborne, the horde is already on the town. So, the defenders start with small numbers and a huge E disadvantage.
The fact is that the majority of players in AH2 at this time have zero ACM skills. They don't have the desire to learn, because learning takes effort and effort is to be avoided at all cost. So, they fly in gangs where the risk of getting singled out is minimal. Yet, many still die; testament to their uber skill set....
There are some things that can offset the increasing mindset of horde mongering.
1) Put several manned, hardened, 88mm or 90mm flak guns on each base. Reach out to the town and pop some 110s. Makes porking a lightly defended base extremely risky.
2) Increased lethality of existing field ack (it's largely ineffective now). Reduce the effectiveness of field porking, if they can't survive more than one pass through the ack.
3) Harden the ammo bunkers. Current bunkers are no more difficult to kill than a barracks. Bunkers are bunkers, they should be hard to kill.
4) Reduce radar height from 500 feet to 200 feet AGL. This will result in more unwanted pop-up darbars and increase the likelihood that dweebs will auger. Offers a better chance to detect an NOE early in the mission.
5) Eliminate perk points for killing structures in attack mode. No perk rewards for killing buildings with 110s, Nikis and the like.
6) Remove shooting structures from Attack hit percentage. Only hits on aircraft or vehicles count towards hit percentage. This will impact score only slightly, but it's something at least.
7) Perk bombs over 500 lbs or 250 kilos in attack mode. If it were to cost 4 perks to suicide bomb... There will be less of it.
8) For all fighters not currently perked, add a 5 point perk to all fighters with an ENY of 8 or less. This will get some of the horde gang into lesser fighters.
9) Heavy bombers (B-17, B-24 and Lancaster) cannot drop bombs unless the player is on the bomb sight. This would stop the dive-bombing heavy bombers.
10) No bomber (bomb sight or otherwise) can drop bombs from F3 view. This would eliminate some of the more gamey behavior.
My regards,
Widewing
:aok
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Thanks for digging that up Murdr.
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I had forgotten that HiTech gave his opinion that the BOP's did indeed take that "style" of gameplay to its extreme to the detriment of the game. (thanks Murdr)
I would postulate that these other squads, which are doing exactly what the BOP's did, are also taking that "style" of gameplay to its extreme to the detriment of the game. (I would add that the BOP's style was less "extreme" than what we are experiencing today with certain squads)
Which begs the question are those that run these squads who are engaging in this type of behavior willing to take the steps required to help improve the overall gameplay, or are they going to continue being detriments to this beloved game.
(I would also add that the BOP's style of gameplay has indeed changed from back then, and I in no way shape or form lump them in with the squads I have been discussing in this thread)
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That was now 3 years ago Murdr and BoPs operations then were vastly different then we are now...When HTC implemented the 40% capture rule to reset and split the arenas...the need for a very large BoP force went away...
I personally think it was a brilliant move on his part and have complimented him on it since....back in 2005 ganging one country was a common scenario(for those of you not here then..there were no uncapturable bases and maps were often small)...BopS growth to a 90+ man squad back then was in reaction to having to have a means to fight your way out of a ganging box...we were very good at regaining real estate and allowing bish room to breathe...because of this we were a popular bish squad to join...
Over the last year or two i would say we are less a base capture squad...except on squad night..and more a defense or furballing squad...we enjoy cv fights and routinely do fiter sweeps...of course we still NOE at times but proportionally less. We also don't advertise our missions and do them from within whoever is on...thus our numbers have shrunk..at least in terms of active members...we don't openly recruit...
If you see how many captures I have versus back then I suspect it is much less...i just dont capture like i used to...I don't see the need personally...it is very hard to "win the war" and unless the bish are being overrun i prefer to furball/defend with quick short action fights....
In many ways our numbers are perfect now...we always have enough on to "do" something but not too many to clog up the vox ch etc.
All this doesn't change my original point which is that most who call themselves "furballers" and point fingers at th3 Hord3 are actually mediocre pilots (when placed in the MA vs DA) who want a reputation as being l33t...the current environment doesn't support how they want to fly...for many picking, roping etc and it upsets them...true furballers who don't mind dying can always find a fight...and YES, all of you reading this going "i know he doesn't mean me"...yes i probaby mean you...
See, i have no problem accepting who/what i am...If I am the secret C.O. of a secret air force.... :aok If i lead NOEs to give us something to do while we joke around and have fun.... :aok If i fly la7s because they let me do what i need to do most easily.... :aok As long as I am having fun I'll be in the game...when that stops I'll look forward to the next thing that gives me the same comradery and fun :salute Right now though it seems I'm still having fun and somehow these others are not...odd
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4) Reduce radar height from 500 feet to 200 feet AGL. This will result in more unwanted pop-up darbars and increase the likelihood that dweebs will auger. Offers a better chance to detect an NOE early in the mission.
Why not just reduce it to the soil and be done?
For all fighters not currently perked, add a 5 point perk to all fighters with an ENY of 8 or less. This will get some of the horde gang into lesser fighters.
I don't much want my P-47N or Ta-152 perked. I don't think it would be *just* to perk the N1K. More to the point, and less personally, I don't see the point in perking the very same fighters the defenders are likely to up to defend...players are more likely to leave them in the hangar for such "suicide defenses" than they are offensively.
Otherwise, good ideas.
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My interpretation is that one "style" of gameplay is as valid as another, until they are taken to the extreme and start harming overall gameplay.
Your interpretation is correct imho....
I'm sure folks will miss that HTC felt Laz's pure furballing world was excessive as well...my point remains that how do 30 guys running an noe in an arena with 300-450 in it ruin gameplay for these l33ts? If anything it diversifies it....
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Your interpretation is correct imho....
I'm sure folks will miss that HTC felt Laz's pure furballing world was excessive as well...my point remains that how do 30 guys running an noe in an arena with 300-450 in it ruin gameplay for these l33ts? If anything it diversifies it....
I didn't miss it.
I agree with HiTechs assessment and always have.
Find me one post where I have ever said that base taking is "wrong" and shouldn't be done.
If I had to lump myself in any one "group" it would be a landgrabber over a furballer, but I enjoy both styles and when the two can be combined I am the most pleased.
What I don't "get" is how HiTech can put down in black and white what your squad did was "extreme" and "detrimental" to the game and you can not see how this current crop of people are doing exactly what the BOPs did?!?!
Is 30 people running constant NOE's at undefended bases in a 300 person arena somehow differnet than 80 in an 800 person arena like what you and yours were doing?
Explain THAT one to me.
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I'm sure folks will miss that HTC felt Laz's pure furballing world was excessive as well...
They shouldn't. I pulled those two quotes specifically to show it applies both ways.
There is a fundamental difference between the two though. Furballers do not enforce their style of gameplay in a pratical manner on others. They just "talk". Landgrabbers not only affect the prospects of a furball friendly environment, but at times specifically go out of their way to shut down furballs with the attitude that they are entitled to force players to contribute to the "war effort" instead of furballing.
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They shouldn't. I pulled those two quotes specifically to show it applies both ways.
There is a fundamental difference between the two though. Furballers do not enforce their style of gameplay in a pratical manner on others. They just "talk". Landgrabbers not only affect the prospects of a furball friendly environment, but at times specifically go out of their way to shut down furballs with the attitude that they are entitled to force players to contribute to the "war effort" instead of furballing.
IE..taking tanktown bases and insisting to your fellow countrymen that resourses are "waisted" and not going to "much more productive war winning" base taking.
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maybe u guys should be looking at the defenders.
the amount of times i find one of these missions 25miles out, yet 5minutes later im still the only defender.... i find a good defence is much more fun than almost anything.
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There are some things that can offset the increasing mindset of horde mongering.
1) .......
10) .......
My regards,
Widewing
11) remove the perk reward for resets.
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11) remove the perk reward for resets.
I Personally agrre with this statement. I don't understand why they ever implemented this. All it does is rewards EVERYone from the war-winning country. :huh
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I Personally agrre with this statement. I don't understand why they ever implemented this. All it does is rewards EVERYone from the war-winning country. :huh
Actually, believe it or not....there was a time when "winning the war" was not a priority. Go figure. :rolleyes:
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The only good thing that comes out of "winning the war" is a new map. But with the large maps theres rarely ever a "reset" due to the winning of the war. Which leaves those "win t3h w4r!!!" type of players to continue trying to win a war that really can't be won :D
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They will do that anyway. It's the "dead horse" they refuse to walk away from.
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True. What if the war never really could be won? What would happen then?
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What if the war never really could be won?
That is what we have currently.
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That is what we have currently.
We won in blue saturday morning.
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True. What if the war never really could be won? What would happen then?
we would have to keep paying 14.95?
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We won in blue saturday morning.
odd, I coulda sworn I was on last night and the war was still going on...
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odd, I coulda sworn I was on last night and the war was still going on...
It was the green stamp arena that we won.
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All I got to add is :rofl at hitech's spelling before spellcheck..
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[Randomthought]Seems like the LWAs are becoming the type of place that lead to the original split of the MA. Perhaps a LW Red or Yellow is in the works. [/Randomthought]
Please don't take away the NOE Hordelettes -- I need the easy kills. :cry
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maybe u guys should be looking at the defenders.
the amount of times i find one of these missions 25miles out, yet 5minutes later im still the only defender.... i find a good defence is much more fun than almost anything.
I agree with Overlag. We have all seen it, how many times have you all upped to defend a flashing base to find your the only defender until it is almost hopeless to defend then 10 friendlies suddenly spawn at the last minute to help.
Or in many cases try to spawn too late so when you get killed for the last time you find 15 guys in the tower whinging about losing the base.
If people leave defense of a base untill the last minute don't be surprised if you lose it regardless of whether it is a 5 aircraft noe or 50 aircraft. The time to defend is when it first starts flashing so you can intercept well out from the base and have enough advantage to have better than 1:1 loss factor. A 110 on the deck is pretty much at a disadvantage from any fighter with some alt, even crap pilots like me in a zero can take out a 110 if I have E.
Also that far out if you do get shot down you can re-up before the raiders are in vulching distance and have a second go, he may have 2 sectors to fly to reach the same point.
Admittedly some guys are busy elsewhere but on a busy night there must be more than 1 guy available for defence.
If you wait till they are taking out the airbase then tough titty, you lose the base mostly through your countries indifference, not because of the enemies overwhelming numbers. On a 1:1 ratio defenders are at an advantage as they can respawn and be in attack range a lot faster than the aggressors, CV's on the doorstep excepted.
If you don't defend the base then don't whinge about losing it. If you are a lone defender then whinge to your countrymen. If you are on one of the big maps, honestly who cares, I've never seen one of these reset by base captures, I think most of the time HTC reset it themselves because they are as sick of the same map day after day as we are.
On another subject. Why does the word for a female canine in my post keep changing to puppy??????, whinge substituted for female canine. Is this the thought police or just firefox's spellchecker
<S>
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First one is most likely Rolling Dweeblets and second is probably one of Limbo0's missions.
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You know its funny....
Some guys would look at those screens and say: "Wow! What game is that, are those all real people? No AI? OMG look at all those tanks and planes! I have to try this game"
There is a reason we play online here, real people to fight. If that means that when I choose to put myself infront of an offensive manned by 20+ players that I get slaughtered, so be it. It also means when i am flying with a little more advantage than an IL2 at a vulched airfield there are plenty of targets to shoot or tanks to bomb, and real people looking to kill me.
AH2 has about one of the best ratios of price/player base/arena size of any game out there now. Logging in to the MA is like joining an organism of its own, where we become white blood cells forming the greater being. Its not about 1on1, or the individual's existance, it is only about the entity of the MA itself which none of us controls personally.
We can either accept that the MA is not the place to get the 1on1 fix, log in and kick some tail, have a laugh with our friends then log off and forget about it.....or we can keep arguing about it here....wasting precious seconds that could be spent shaping the MA pro-actively.
Constantly pointing out the negative aspects of life is a really childish trait. We all fall for it now and then, but we learn not to do it all the time. We keep out negative thoughts locked away for the right time, when it can actualy mean soemthing. No social groups like a negative and sceptical group member. Its that simple. It doesnt matter how true what we whine about is, all we do is detract from the fun of the group as a whole. Not to mention jepordise the future of the environment the group as a whole thrives in.
not aimed at anyone just a general negative and sceptical opinion from me to you.
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oh what I would pay to have all those ground pounders all bunched up within 10 feet of each other and drop the Volkswagen from under the stuka right on their heads...that would make my day :devil
Off Topic...
Coors slacking... only 1 smiley......
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Admittedly some guys are busy elsewhere but on a busy night there must be more than 1 guy available for defence.
Here's a thought. Next time you up one of your valiant 1 person defenses...check the roster and see how many of your countrymen are NOT in flight. Then note how many other fields are under attack. I've seen guys beg for help before....and there simply be no one to help. But then, I prefer to fly on a low number side.
BTW, there is a text parser in the BBS software. Use prohibited words and it will substitute more appropriate ones for you.
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Has anyone actually won the virtual "war" in AH...ever? I always have a base to up from...always.
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BTW, there is a text ptomator in the BBS software. Use prohibited words and it will substitute more appropriate ones for you.
just look what it done to my sig
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The reason people don't investigate a flashing base is that it means one of two things. Most likely a single enemy unit got within the radius to activate the flashing and you get to fly around looking for it, probably unsuccessfully, or you run into a horde and are outnumbered by 30 to 1. Sure, in the second case you can report it, but it is usually too late to up fighters and have enough E to engage with reasonable success so the defenders end up in GVs.
For those of us who like to do air-to-air combat the flashing base is pretty much a lose-lose scenario, so we ignore it.
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BTW, there is a text ptomator in the BBS software.
lol yes there is :D
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I think the point some are trying to make in here ( well maybe just mine) is not trying to gain sympathy for the defenders, but wondering why these guys on the offensive that have 30-40 need to use EVERY tactic possible to AVOID contact? The only fight you get when you fly in with 40 freindlies is with the guy in green. This may constitute "fun" once in a while, but Ive been logged on where its just constant sortie after sortie where these guys just pile drive real estate. doesnt it get boring?
Whats even better is once the tactic gets challenged in any sort of way...they disapear and its rinse and repeat and behold..theres another base flashing.
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BTW, there is a text ptomator in the BBS software. Use prohibited words and it will substitute more appropriate ones for you.
Now that's funny!! :rofl Guess they don't like folks taking about parsing text :)
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I've read through many BBS postings which seem to have a common theme...furballers vs toolshedders...and this thread seems to qualify even though veiled in the, "Win the War" , war, found in various other threads, and disguised under the NOE cloth.
Some posts ask for more hardening of the CVs and Ammo Bunkers, and of adding more Barracks to Air Fields and more lethal base ack to discourage single fighter-bombers and formation bombers from taking out the Air Base Targets, and the CVs, all of which purportedly ruins good fights. Many posts encourage eliminating score altogether, and others propose raising Perk levels on various aircraft to encourage the use of lesser ENY aircraft, which, according to some posts will encourage new folks to learn good BFM and ACM.
I agree (sarcasm mode on)! Let's do this! Let's make it harder to capture bases so that it takes more people, and more firepower, and more ordnance to capture a base, undefended, or not. Let's encourage the growth of, " The Horde " , about which many Posters seem to be in angst. Let's keep calling each other "furballers", "toolshedders", "win-the-war-types", "GVers"! Let's continue to fracture the Community under whatever name we can derogatorily manufacture that drives us further apart from each other! Yes, let's do this! I agree! Or, perhaps, we may try a different road (sarcasm mode off)...one less derogatory...one that leads us as a Community to single, united term...Combatants.
An Idea: make Perks harder to attain! Make it worth an individual's effort to learn BFM and ACM in a figher, or fighter-bomber, make it worth the effort of an individual to learn a more complicated method of bombing; give less recognition to winning the war and base capture and GV spawn camping. It used to be that everyone online in a Country during a reset of a map won by that Country would receive 25 perk points in all categories. Is this still true? If so, let's cut that amount to 5 perk points per category. And, let's perk the Bomber Formations so that it takes, let's say, 5 perk points for each additional bomber (5 for 1, 10 for 2) to a maximum of a 3 Bomber Formation (total 10 for the formation...loadout?). Now, let's say that to attain Bomber perks you must fly milkruns against Strat Targets and the greater your altitude and accuracy, the more perks you attain and should you choose to fly against airfields, you attain a significanly lower amount of perk points until you have enough to fly a 3 Bomber Formation. And, let's give the Bomber pilots a choice of difficulty in their bombsight. Let's say that the "easy mode" is our current method of calibrating our bombsight and earns significantly fewer perks than the past more complicated method of calibrating the bombsight. Let's also say that the higher the altitude of release, the greater the perk points. We can do similar things in fighters and fighter/bombers, and GVs.
Just to carry this idea a bit further, let's award liberal perk points to those who've asked for, and received, training from our Trainers in the category in which the player asked to be trained (this could become a quick road to the Perk Gold Mine).
I almost forgot about CVs! Let's triple the Fleet size, keep Ack the same (for present), but lower hardness to 500 lbs for Destroyers, 1000 pounds for a Cruiser, and 3000 pounds for a CV. But! The CV cannot aquire damage until all of the rest of the Fleet is sunk. However, a Fleet this size cannot cruise closer than 35 miles to a base, or port (perhaps this may allow PT Boats to carry Troops?).
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.....
My regards,
Widewing
I agree with all of this Widewing. Good ideas :aok
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Oh come on guys. You all know the thrill of an NOE missun is avoiding the trees on the way there. I have nothing but respect for those highly skilled pilits. :salute
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Oh come on guys. You all know the thrill of an NOE missun is avoiding the trees on the way there. I have nothing but respect for those highly skilled pilits. :salute
I'm sure that you hold Punkstangs, pickers and campers etc. with their dubious "skills" in the same high esteem.
I would venture to say that they are all doing their best to avoid a fight.
And trees. :salute
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I'm sure that you hold Punkstangs, pickers and campers etc. with their dubious "skills" in the same high esteem.
I would venture to say that they are all doing their best to avoid a fight.
And trees. :salute
OH PULEEZ!!(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-rolleyes008.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org)
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I'm sure that you hold Punkstangs, pickers and campers etc. with their dubious "skills" in the same high esteem.
I would venture to say that they are all doing their best to avoid a fight.
And trees. :salute
I always meet the trees when i pick :huh
I say perk the trees!!! They climb waaaay to fast and can outmaneuver any plane.
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Hello Scotch,
I understand your frustrations with NOE hordes that avoid fights. I must tell you that I take exception to your use of the Pigs as an example of poor game play. The Pigs never, I repeat never, try to avoid fights. We fly right into those very same hordes that you describe to fight them whenever we can. NOE missions are the exception, not the rule for us. Even though we have 50+ affiliated members, it is a very rare night indeed to have more than 15 folks on at any time. So it would be physically impossible to put together one of these "super horde don't want to fight NOE missions" of 30-40 planes you have described and pictured. I ask that you not trash talk my squad, as it is not something I would do to yours.
<Salute>
Way
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Hello Scotch,
I understand your frustrations with NOE hordes that avoid fights. I must tell you that I take exception to your use of the Pigs as an example of poor game play. The Pigs never, I repeat never, try to avoid fights. We fly right into those very same hordes that you describe to fight them whenever we can. NOE missions are the exception, not the rule for us. Even though we have 50+ affiliated members, it is a very rare night indeed to have more than 15 folks on at any time. So it would be physically impossible to put together one of these "super horde don't want to fight NOE missions" of 30-40 planes you have described and pictured. I ask that you not trash talk my squad, as it is not something I would do to yours.
<Salute>
Way
I dont really believe that he refered to POTW as a squad synonimous to the overkill missions. I cant imagine the community putting you in that category ( Ive never seen in the text buffers " NOE 34..its them pesky POTW guys").
IMO..theres nothing wrong with NOE missions..its the ones that have 30+ in them that boggles my mind. With that many #s..why and I mean WHY try to avoid contact at all cost? Second..if you really want that piece of real estate..the mission goes awry..KEEP fighting for it..dont shy away and off to some other base with absolutley no uppers. is it excessive?..YES..these attacks go on all night
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I dont really believe that he refered to POTW as a squad synonimous to the overkill missions. I cant imagine the community putting you in that category ( Ive never seen in the text buffers " NOE 34..its them pesky POTW guys").
IMO..theres nothing wrong with NOE missions..its the ones that have 30+ in them that boggles my mind. With that many #s..why and I mean WHY try to avoid contact at all cost? Second..if you really want that piece of real estate..the mission goes awry..KEEP fighting for it..dont shy away and off to some other base with absolutley no uppers. is it excessive?..YES..these attacks go on all night
I appreciate you answering oTRALFZo. He mentioned no squad by name, but he did mention our signature salute "Oink" at least twice. I just want to make sure I felt he was not inferring that the POTW were the type of squad that he was griping about. Please let me know if I am missing something. Here are the quotes:
In both cases the other 1/2 are at the town.
These squads have reason to be proud of themselves!
I salute you. :salute
Or in your words... "oink".
I didn't say POTW were the squads pictured however the attitude is all the same.
Oink!
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Hey Scotch Suck it that is bishops. you jealous deal with it. OINK :rock
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I am not sure, as I am at work and did not take the time to read in detail EVERY post that was made here.. but... here is the story on POTW from my perspective.
1. POTW is a large squad. Thus, we tend to have quite a bit larger numbers on than some squads at times.
2. POTW likes a variety of things. ANy given night you will find us
A. Furballing
B. Flying fighter sweeps
C. Running heavy bombers with escorts to facilitate base taking
D. Running the occasional NOE Raid.
Since the NOE is the crux of the matter here, i will give my viewpoint. Keep in mind this is MY viewpoint and not necissarily EVERYONES. However, we have the 3rd wing, which is a dedicated a2a wing. Granted, you cant tell which ones of us are 3rd wing but its pretty easy to tell.. we dont hang those smurfy green things of four wings!
NOE, we will perform an NOE suprise attack. Not a lot fo the time, but at times we will do so, generally speaking we try to find a base that has some strategic importance in directing the course of the "WAR"
If someone ups and disrupts our NOE, we dont pack up and go somewhere else.. we will fight. We will continue to up and come in to attack the base.
In MY opinoin I enjoy acm/furballs much more than either of the other 2, but in a squad that does all of these things, Just as they sometimes fly MY type of flight, I too sometimes do thiers. Each "style" is fun in its own regard. (although i always do A2A no matter which "style" we are doing at the time). The massive NOE raid is the least enjoyable for me, since usually there is not a decent fight. I try to get us going in fighter sweeps and/or historical style mass bombing raids (with escorts) aince I find both of these MUCH more enjoyable. But, as I said.. with a squad of such varied interests as POTW, each of us has to take a turn at doing something we dont care for, to appease those who do like that style.
Sol
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I don't much want my P-47N or Ta-152 perked.
You and I both know the 152 doesn't deserve its 5 ENY. It's more like a 10-15 ENY ride.
On the other hand, I've convinced myself that the 47N is worth its 5 ENY. The ability to stay aloft long enough to use everyone one of those 3400 50 cal rounds, firing at a rate of 106.25 rounds per second, combined with the 2nd best roll rate at 400mph, not to mention an ordinance capacity comparable to a medium bomber, makes it a formidable aircraft. Sure, it's not suited to the luftberry tactics favored in the main arena, but no one forces you to fly that way. :aok
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A few of the really nice aspects of Aces High is that the inventors & programmers built the aspect of strategic game play into the sim. If you are a strategic thinker...you can actually "see" the battlefield as a chess game..."see" vulnerable targets, "see" where the enemy is fixated and using good military tactics and strategies...organize people into efficient teams and destroy strategic targets and take strategic areas. That is just one of the many aspects of the game.
Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest used to call it "git up the skeer" (use the element of surprise--show up in the enemy's rear unexpectedly)..."hit 'em on the ennn" (use a strategic flanking maneuver) and "bring on the big" (bring overwhelming forces to bear on a strategic point). He didn't invent these tactics---they were around thousands of years before his day---but they all still exist here in Aces High. We were given the nice gift of using strategy.
This is a nice plus--as opposed to some box-game-sim, where it's you furballing the AI's...or if you get on-line it's you furballing the other furballers. It gets really boring after awhile, but most box-game-sims do.
Those people who cannot think strategically absolutely, positively HATE anyone who can....and it even gets personal. (No ESP here, but hide behind a bush and watch).
Folks....put away the pitch-forks and just open your eyes for a second....
If you absolutely, positively HATE anyone or anything that isn't a furballer...don't hang out in the main arena! You will never be happy there.
If all you enjoy doing is furballing---I suggest wholeheartedly that you go where you will be the happiest....the DUELING ARENA.
No toolshedders....no taking bases....no hoarding.....no bombing. You can get all "the best fights" and 1v1's you can ever ask for...it will be just like heaven for you.
If you expect strategic players to go hide in a dark garage simply because you don't like how they play--you are sadly mistaken. All 3 countries do the same things to each other. It's pretty hypocritical to say someone from the other country is "lame" or "gamey" for how they attack your country---when people on your country are doing the same thing to them.
Hey, I'm just trying to help you find a happier place in the game...you should play however makes you happy. It's your $15 bucks.
ROX
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Hurray for relativism..
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I dont really believe that he refered to POTW as a squad synonimous to the overkill missions. I cant imagine the community putting you in that category ( Ive never seen in the text buffers " NOE 34..its them pesky POTW guys").
IMO..theres nothing wrong with NOE missions..its the ones that have 30+ in them that boggles my mind. With that many #s..why and I mean WHY try to avoid contact at all cost? Second..if you really want that piece of real estate..the mission goes awry..KEEP fighting for it..dont shy away and off to some other base with absolutley no uppers. is it excessive?..YES..these attacks go on all night
POTW is definitely not a squad that should be associated with the so called "horde" mentalility.
Tral is completely correct in criticizing the mission planners that can only take bases using 30+ NOE planes. How much fun is capturing an undefended base with 30 players? No one gets any kills, hell some probably don't even get to drop their bombs. If the mission fails they don't stick with the objective, they simply give up and go to another base. These non-confrontational tactics have created a culture of players who reflect those tactics.
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Repost just for Rox...
The game was designed to have fun at different types of combat. Conquering bases is just a means to promote combat and hence fun. But by no means is it more or less justified than going out and just mixing it up.
HiTech
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No point in restating my argument, I've all but given up on the future of the fight within AH. Frankly, the fight on the forums are generally more intense than the ones in the virtual skies of AH.
Here is what I posted before...
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,255480.0.html
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Snip
Crazy talk. :noid
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Repost just for Rox...
Oh snap!
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does anyone need me to post countless films from the good encounters and friendly people i meet in the arenas month in month out? I just cant understand how some people are not having fun. Its like they spend half the time doing most of the things they complain about then the rest complaining when it comes back on them.
I never even had a computer for Airwarrior or Warbirds, but since i joined AH1 the MA gameplay has basically stayed the same...and it is fun, if you look from the right angles. I think its not the game that changes so much as the people who play it. All it would take is a shift back to making thing fun for yourself because....wow...we are flying hundreds of cartoon warbirds in packed arenas vs real people over a network that most of us never imagined possible 20 years ago. Jesus, this game is fun, but i geuss you can make anything suck if you say it does enough times.
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When I started this thread my intentions were clearly to bring to light what I believe is the negative mentality shifting what Aces High is really about down to the core. My problem is not with NOE missions or base captures per se. The real issue my screen shots show is what others are calling the Mega-horde or air force building mentality and how it is influencing the player base and future of the game.
In order for any game, which is what this is, to be fun, the player has to feel that they have some glimmer of hope to win. Originally the combat flight sim was about the pilot vs pilot fight. Capturing the few neutral bases around a pond was just a way to either stir up or get closer to a fight. But the game itself was about air combat. Sharpening your skills and testing them out against your opponent. You had a chance to be better than the other guy if you dedicated yourself. The other guy would usually help you out on your road to "Ace-dom". It all came down to the heart pumping, sweaty palm fights. Whether it be 1v1, 2v1, 2v2, or squad vs squad. Each person went in knowing they might win or lose, but it was balanced. No one brought the gun to the knife fight. It was all you vs him/her.
At some point this drive to improve your skills whether be it in pure dogfighting, bombing, or strategic mission planning started going the way of the dodo bird and these large squads began showing up. I'm not saying anything new here. We all know this as fact.
The fact is that the majority of players in AH2 at this time have zero ACM skills. They don't have the desire to learn, because learning takes effort and effort is to be avoided at all cost. So, they fly in gangs where the risk of getting singled out is minimal. Yet, many still die; testament to their uber skill set....
The reason people don't investigate a flashing base is that it means one of two things....or you run into a horde and are outnumbered by 30 to 1. Sure, in the second case you can report it, but it is usually too late to up fighters and have enough E to engage with reasonable success so the defenders end up in GVs.
For those of us who like to do air-to-air combat the flashing base is pretty much a lose-lose scenario, so we ignore it.
1. The MA HAS become a squad based arena since the introduction of large maps and Numbers...undeniable...I always have 14-15 guys in the nighttime hours to call to help defend a noe or gv assault. AND IT IS FUN!!! Thats the benefit in being in a squad that WORKS TOGETHER! If Scotch insists on being in a squad that only fields 1-2 players at a time...then he may need to a) change squads or b) not oppose missions if it causes him to lose sleep.
The concern I share with many other people is the effect this is having on game play. The great cod himself has stated that taking things to such extreme unbalances is detrimental to Aces High. That was three years ago. As these hordes grow the only way a player feels he can compete is by joining a mega horde of his own. Horde creates horde creates horde. Three years ago it was just the BoPs "air force". Look at the squad roster today. Look at the dar bars on your map.
The need and desire to sharpen your skills becomes obsolete. You and your "wingmen", all 30 of them, rule the skies and the ground unopposed. The horde with only 20 people? They can't possibly fight against those odds. "Those guys are too good for us." So they've gone to the other side of the map. Horde successful. They have better chances against 3 pilots and a #s guy in a manned ack. Thus essentially removing the glimmer of hope from 3 determined pilots as they get clobbered into oblivion over and over again until the hangars are bombed out. The #'s dude in the manned ack? He's still shooting at the 3 friendlies... :lol
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Those 3 pilots?
One of them is a long time vet. He remembers what things used to be like, even if slightly glamorized. He grows tired of the ever growing horde mentality. He's a well respected member of the community. Maybe he used to volunteer his time and train new guys the fight, or run scenarios. People were interested and he was ecstatic to help. But now the #'s guy, still stuck in the manned ack, is more interested in joining the horde. "They have numbers!" "They rule the skies!" "I want to win too!"
Pilot #1's influence over the player base can't compete. His game has disappeared. He decides to delete his account and face wife ack instead. :uhoh
Pilot #2 thinks he knows what's going on. He decides to say something about it. Maybe people will be reasonable and listen. "Everyone is here because they love the game! So lets work together!" He comes to the bbs and makes a few posts offering his concerns and making his suggestions. The only response he gets is "Quit whinning!!!" "It's my $15, I'll do what I want!!!"
Disheartened he decides to only fly in events. Hopefully pilot #1 stays around long enough to run some good ones otherwise pilot #2 quits.
Pilot #3 is on the last day of his two week trial. He's a little undecided about taking the plunge so he logs on and takes off. About 5minutes into his first flight he runs into an enemy plane. "Cool! Lets go mr!!!" He attacks the guy we'll call "Falconweeeng".
"Falconweeeng" is one of those pilots usually in a horde, so when he's caught off guard by Pilot #3 he doesn't quite know what to do. So he re-ups and brings his horde of 20 over to take the base away from pilots 1,2,3, and #s dude. After being pounded out of the sky and pm'd insults, pilot #3 decides he can get better game play out of solitaire. He decides not to join.
Eventually 3 of our 4 beloved pilots quit, while the #s dude, this time in a 5" cv gun has risen through the ranks and leads a horde squad of his own now! His horde rules whatever sector they are in, and Pilots A,B, and C "can either deal with it or quit!!!"
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Little side story aside. That is the concern I share with others. The simmer is being chased out by the xboxer.
The game is no longer about Air combat but point and click seal clubbing.
So maybe after reading this thread someone says "hey, these guys might be on to something...how can we change things?"
Here in lies the dilemma. There is nothing wrong with the game itself. The FE is fine. It's the player attitude within it. And unfortunately making things like base capture more difficult will only cause the hordes to get larger. Because as we've stated, they already lack the skills to compete without their overwhelming numbers.
So then how do we address this issue?
Is it too late? Quite possibly. But after investing so many dollars and hours into a hobby, some people would like to try.
Being realistic there is almost no chance that even 100 like minded vets grouped together can stop this digression on their own. They know this. They have a forum to discuss it. Pages upon pages have been written. Finally they're starting to give up and quit.
1) The AH Training Academy needs to get setup. At this point only something specifically sponsored by HiTech Creations is going to have enough draw to influence a large enough amount of players to have any effect. It is my hope that when this is finally setup and running players are again inspired to learn, and question, and fight...for the sport of it. HTC needs to help facilitate this. The volunteers are great, but just that, volunteers doing it in their spare time.
2) The CO's and leaders of these Mega horde squads need to concede that their overwhelming odds may actually be damaging the game when the game designer himself says so. Stop rolling across the map and killing every potential fight before it happens. Take your squads into the DA or the TA. Enter the squad vs squad duels. Hone your skills and challenge yourself in the dogfight.
3) I realize that this third one is probably going to ruffle some feathers and if not done carefully can be just as negative, but the community needs to start policing itself again. It used to be, before the hordes took over, that if someone did do something like lead a hording NOE dweeb fest, they were spited, mocked, and scolded until they learned better.
That became increasingly harder in the anonymity of large servers and large hordes. This garbage game play needs to be looked down on again by the whole community. If that means naming names, and calling people out for it so be it.
Grief them and disrupt their horde "misshunzzz" until the servers are healthy again. All in good spirit and within the codes of conduct of course. While individually some of their pilots are the nicest guys in the world, the squads themselves take on a different light. It's nothing personal and I'm sorry if I single you out. But that's how it is.
At the same time I will continue to fight the fight and help anyone that is interested in learning or doing so.
I've been a trainer before (AWARKya). I've done that. I do that. I'm in the DA all the time helping guys out. Where are you?
Those of you who have flown the closing flights around the pond before the plug is pulled know what it's like to see something you put so much time and effort into go down the tubes. Those of you who've seen your favorite sport get turned into the NBA on ice know too. I already deleted my account and quit once. I don't want to do so again soon. That's my motivation.
Hey Scotch Suck it that is bishops. you jealous deal with it. OINK :rock
(http://www.dasmuppets.com/roster/members/animal_roster_names.gif)
Army of Muppets owns you.
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I think some of the posters hit on the right idea. Some of these 1337 pile-its should be trying to help those they shoot down instead of running home to land their kills and thump their chest on 200. Maybe answer a noobs question honestly instead of telling them to hit Alt-F4. I may not be a great cartoon pilot but I do know some ACM. I will help anyone that asks. If you want more people to fight the way you do then teach them how. When you shoot someone down and realize they may be new,offer to help. It should be pretty obvious to the 1337 pilots who needs help.
If you teach them to fight to the end they may never get frustrated with the learning curve and never fall to the horde monster.
Now you may ask why I joined the POTW. I joined them because my squad disbanded shortly after I joined them. I flew with them because it was fun. The POTW was on one night doing the furball thing while I was around so I got on their vox and realized they were a bunch of fun to fly with. Joined them and it has been a blast doing all kinds of combat missions with them. ALL kinds of missions not just the horde base take.
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my .02 cents in this is simple.
people want to play a losers game employing losers strategies, then fight back.
NOE's dont last if someone posts on 200 where it is and where it is heading. adding a little specific information on the assault is also helpful (i.e. what squad is running the mission, number of planes in the air, plane types and load outs ect)
what? what was that? did some one just scream SPY! how lowly?! how dweebish?!! well that is exactly how i feel about scumbags destroying the fighting spirit of this game by swarming bases by booming in at 50 feet with 20, 30 or more players.
im a firm believer in giving your enemy the fight they deserve, not the fight they wished you would.
you want some one to roll over and play dead the go back to easy mode atari. i hear pong is making a come back.
i am a proud member of a squad that allows country jumping so i will without a doubt dedicate my time to divulging any and every NOE mission i spot on 200. im not a sneaky hide who you are type of spy, im gonna do it so that the entire world can watch.
if you dont like getting your NOE horde missions busted up by waiting enemy fighters, i guess your gonna have to gain some alt. which makes my job easier, once you show up on dar everyone will know your coming well in advance. then you will have to fight to take the base because others will be prepared. but then i guess you also have to learn some acm to defend yourself, or youll just keep getting torn up by the 51 dweebs that are waiting 10,000 feet over your head.
consider yourselves warned.
Scotch bro, just as a foot note to this. i am in full agreement with your issues here.
but, i wish to say that from personal experience i do not believe that the B.O.P.s are the issue here. now can i guarantee this.....no....but..
now i cannot speak on all of the squad nights over the last 2 years since i left the BOP's, but i can speak of what i know.
i flew with them for a few months and in that time the number of NOE gang bang raids were very limited. on our squad nights we may have done one and on rare occasions two of these missions. usually we spent our time gang defending any particular soft spot on the map. some were at multiple bases being defended simultaneously while others where running bombing missions.
there was normally never more than 10 (maybe 15) BOP's at any one place at any time. to many people took away from the ability of everyone to have a good time. too much tripping over each other. the most BOP's i had ever seen in one place at one time was 27, and they were defending against a horde of over 50 (that was an awsome night and the fight for that one base went on for 3 hours)
the idea behind the squad night (as it was explained to me) was to bring everyone together and then split people into groups. give them multiple tasks and allow them to disperse and play the game. we would jump from group to group or break out onto our own, doing many different types of things in one night. it was to maximize the fun and experience for each member.
yes they did like to capture bases and take real estate, but it was never in the fashion of the things i see going on in the MA today. these squad nights were one night a week and lasted normally for 4 hours or so. this is not the constant bombardment of the map by the hordes that we are seeing today.
i do see the problem with massive squads and their constant hording and mass invasions. i agree with you. i just wanted to add my .02 about the BOP's because i think they are the tiniest part of the problem not the epitome of it.
FLOTSOM
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I agree with Scotch, there is nothing wrong with the game, its peoples attitudes that are bringing the game play down into the gutters.
There is nothing wrong with a squad, even big ones. Big ones must realize that just with their shear numbers they can dominate an area. Knowing this they can adjust the squad ops to make it fun for everyone, not just their squad mates. Use those numbers to attack a number of bases at once, fight a two front war. This is a game and your women and children won't be killed because you fight on two fronts. :) Sure its a bit harder to accomplish your goals of wining the war, but think of how much satisfaction you'll get doing it.
Getting people to honestly look at what they are doing is going to be the hard part. I had a guy tell me how honorable he was, how honest. After he called me out for HOing him I showed him the film which proved I didn't HO him yet he still believes he's being honest and honorable. :rolleyes: Whats honest or honarable about lieing? The quake mentality has moved in and is whats going to be left. Just another shootem up.
"LEEEEERRRRROOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!"
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Jenkins.
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Jenkins.
+1
<S>Scotch :aok
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Obviously there are different philosophies on game play. This is to you hoarders out there, NOE'ers, and land grabbers alike: If you want to bulldoze over undefended bases and then get the wtgz from your ignorant countrymen, then so be it. It's a big map, you can steamroll as many undefended bases as your heart pleases, it's your $15. But seriously, there's nothing that pisses me off more than when we are having a good fight (late at night in particular) and someone sneaks a base that we are fighting at. You are ruining the game by doing this. One day you're going to realize that all that base taking time invested amounted to jack squat because if you do end up winning the war (zomg!), the map resets. You'll never remember the bases you took, you'll remember the good fights you had and the people you met.
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Obviously there are different philosophies on game play. This is to you hoarders out there, NOE'ers, and land grabbers alike: If you want to bulldoze over undefended bases and then get the wtgz from your ignorant countrymen, then so be it. It's a big map, you can steamroll as many undefended bases as your heart pleases, it's your $15. But seriously, there's nothing that pisses me off more than when we are having a good fight (late at night in particular) and someone sneaks a base that we are fighting at. You are ruining the game by doing this. One day you're going to realize that all that base taking time invested amounted to jack squat because if you do end up winning the war (zomg!), the map resets. You'll never remember the bases you took, you'll remember the good fights you had and the people you met.
I remember taking 10. :D
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I remember taking 10. :D
Which 10? What date? Do you remember the AI you fought? How about the fights you didn't have??
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snip
Me likes what this guy is doing\saying. Even if I don't totally agree with every single issue 100%. Not only presenting problems in a civil, cognitive, easy listening manner in detail, but also suggesting some solutions. Not just aimless sniveling.
He gets it.
The biggest problems can be corrected by the community\vets, as long as they don't just sit there and watch it go by.
<S> Scotch
Animl
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want!!!"
Pilot #3 is on the last day of his two week trial. He's a little undecided about taking the plunge so he logs on and takes off. About 5minutes into his first flight he runs into an enemy plane. "Cool! Lets go mr!!!" He attacks the guy we'll call "Falconweeeng".
"Falconweeeng" is one of those pilots usually in a horde, so when he's caught off guard by Pilot #3 he doesn't quite know what to do. So he re-ups and brings his horde of 20 over to take the base away from pilots 1,2,3, and #s dude. After being pounded out of the sky and pm'd insults, pilot #3 decides he can get better game play out of solitaire. He decides not to join.
Wow! You really know me well! For a guy with a fiter k/d of 1.6 and a attack k/d of 0.6 you should spend a little time in the TA before you talk smack...I think the 2 weeker would have a better chance of killing you however. :devil According to your squaddie zazen since your attack and fiter score sucks he wouldn't even respect you enough to be civil to you.
Try this scenario:
Our 2 weeker ups out of an airbase....a pair of tempests are lurking over the base...as soon as he clears the field ack they take passes at him until he gets nailed...."kappa killed you" "fester killed you" pops up over and over again...he ups a distant base to try and get some alt and by the time he arrives they are gone. WTG's all around when they land their kills...
Okay...a base is flashing! CV off the coast...our 2 weeker ups a fiter and bam "shawk has killed you" he keeps getting vulched over and over again by different members of the non-NOE squadron. Fine...he ups a nearby base but by the time he arrives it is too late and they have landed on the cv.
Crap...okay he goes to a busier field and ups a spit16 and heds out where he sees an enemy f4u-1d doing scissors with a friendly...the friendly calls for help and he zooms in and picks the f4u off him. Suddenly ch 200 is lighting up:
Skyrock: you wuss..your a coward for jumping in
Skyrock: YOU spixteen dweeb moron...I own you!!!
I could go on and on...half the l33t so-called furballers are pickers and are more likely to insult when they die then wtg or <S> (No Mark I am not calling you a picker...but you could be nicer on ch 200)
Maybe you should look in the mirror Scotch and ask yourself what REALLY drives folks to want to be in a mob and not focus on fiter skills...is it truly the land grabbing squads OR is it the l33t furballers who are quick to insult and use their experience to make the newbie miserable instead of looking for "fair" fights and putting themselves into harms way?
Now all that being said..how everyone chooses to fly is their own 14.95...Noone i used as an example above is doing anything unethical or wrong. I like shawk and his boys. I personally could care less...but lets stop pretending that the basetaking squads are worse. They thrive because THEY DO TAKE GUYS UNDER THEIR WING AND HELP THEM OUT!!! Your podium perched "furballers" like to pontificate but do nothing to advance the game. I have no idea who you are and I've been in aw/ah since 1996...and I truly won't miss you when your gone again. It WILL happen because you will never care enough about this game and its development to actually spend the time to do anything but pontificate. Talk is cheap and yours seems particularly worthless...
Here is a tip you will likely dismiss....The way to change things is not by insulting but by leading...Thats what worked for BoPs and many other successful and longlived squads. And BTW BoPs came long after MAW and other squads...we didnt invent the megasquad...most active squads have multiple wings and did back then as well...
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The biggest problems can be corrected by the community\vets, as long as they don't just sit there and watch it go by.
Animl...
A few years ago I might have agreed. Way to many of the newer players simply don't want to "get it" and why should they? The game rewards them for what they do...why change? In their myopic view, everything is fine.
I believe it will take fundamental changes to the game to alter this behavior. Heck, HT has made a number of changes in recent years to try and "make it better" (this, in part, is why we have split arenas).
What is more sad than anything else is the guys with the "it's my $15 and I will do what I want!" attitudes.
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I have no idea who you are and I've been in aw/ah since 1996...and I truly won't miss you when your gone again. It WILL happen because you will never care enough about this game and its development to actually spend the time to do anything but pontificate. Talk is cheap and yours seems particularly worthless...
Here is a tip you will likely dismiss....The way to change things is not by insulting but by leading...Thats what worked for BoPs and many other successful and longlived squads. And BTW BoPs came long after MAW and other squads...we didnt invent the megasquad...most active squads have multiple wings and did back then as well...
Geez, I've been in AW/AH since 1990 and only know you from what you post here. Does that invalidate your opinions?
BTW, I do know who "invented" the mega squad. :D
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Animl...
A few years ago I might have agreed. Way to many of the newer players simply don't want to "get it" and why should they? The game rewards them for what they do...why change? In their myopic view, everything is fine.
I believe it will take fundamental changes to the game to alter this behavior. Heck, HT has made a number of changes in recent years to try and "make it better" (this, in part, is why we have split arenas).
What is more sad than anything else is the guys with the "it's my $15 and I will do what I want!" attitudes.
No offense NB but according to your stats..when you play the game you don't GV, Buff or capture. How can you call somebody else myopic when you only play one aspect (fiter)??? If thats not a "its my $15 and I'll do what i want attitude" im not sure what is...
Animal's post in the other thread is still the best one I have read...if there really is a large group of vets who want furballing...form and train appropriate squads and have at it.
I have never seen a buff pilot insult a furballer because they havent learned all the tricks behind buffing...but furballers sure seem comfortable suggesting that anyone who hasn't entered a "ACM training" Dojo are newbs who "just dont get it"....
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Wow! You really know me well! For a guy with a fiter k/d of 1.6 and a attack k/d of 0.6 you should spend a little time in the TA before you talk smack...I think the 2 weeker would have a better chance of killing you however. :devil According to your squaddie zazen since your attack and fiter score sucks he wouldn't even respect you enough to be civil to you.
Score doesn't take into account which missions you are choosing to fly. Scotch is always flying against stacked odds and doesn't give a hoot if his cartoon plane gets shot down. Pretty sure he's notorious for taking a knife to a gun fight and still baggin "1.6" per sortie which is pretty impressive. You're ignorant for trying to justify skill or lack thereof by looking at a scorecard.
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Falconwing, with all due respect it doesn't matter if Scotch is evil incarnate. At least three quarters of the missions in the game either replace tactics with brute force in numbers, or never really show much air combat (totaly die anytime there's proper furballers on the target base, or just shut down/deny the fight via porking), or both. I'm not pointing fingers. I'm just saying you can't substitute a big mission roster for real air combat. Real air combat has some ACM substance to it, not just clobbering inanimate objects or steamrolling some furball with twice the numbers.
And the bit about furballers not coming down from their podium to put themselves in harm's way... It's almost become the norm for furballers (that I've talked to or whose posts I've read) to admit they fly almost exclusively on defense. Because most of the players they find in the game simply run away within two moves unless you bait them with enough sandbagging. That's not the way it should be. And yet those players once in the big multi-wing squads keep doing it.. which you'd think wouldn't happen if they were correctly taken under the squad's wing. If all they do is provide their virtual bodies to the mass-attack clan, they really aren't getting any help at all. On the contrary, the evidence points to them stagnating.
I have never seen a buff pilot insult a furballer because they havent learned all the tricks behind buffing...but furballers sure seem comfortable suggesting that anyone who hasn't entered a "ACM training" Dojo are newbs who "just dont get it"....
This is rubbish. Plenty of guys in bombers and jabos will do as much retarded whining or scoffing at someone pointing out that they're killing a great furball by dropping hangars no one asked to be dropped.
Scotch's K/D.. You have to be kidding, right? Scotch could pull off a score in the top ten/twenty anytime. That's not what floats his boat tho; try fighting him on your own, that's what he's interested in. Stats don't mean jack.
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Wow! You really know me well! For a guy with a fiter k/d of 1.6 and a attack k/d of 0.6 you should spend a little time in the TA before you talk smack...I think the 2 weeker would have a better chance of killing you however. :devil According to your squaddie zazen since your attack and fiter score sucks he wouldn't even respect you enough to be civil to you.Try this scenario:Our 2 weeker ups out of an airbase....a pair of tempests are lurking over the base...as soon as he clears the field ack they take passes at him until he gets nailed...."kappa killed you" "fester killed you" pops up over and over again...he ups a distant base to try and get some alt and by the time he arrives they are gone. WTG's all around when they land their kills...Okay...a base is flashing! CV off the coast...our 2 weeker ups a fiter and bam "shawk has killed you" he keeps getting vulched over and over again by different members of the non-NOE squadron. Fine...he ups a nearby base but by the time he arrives it is too late and they have landed on the cv.Crap...okay he goes to a busier field and ups a spit16 and heds out where he sees an enemy f4u-1d doing scissors with a friendly...the friendly calls for help and he zooms in and picks the f4u off him. Suddenly ch 200 is lighting up:Skyrock: you wuss..your a coward for jumping inSkyrock: YOU spixteen dweeb moron...I own you!!!I could go on and on...half the l33t so-called furballers are pickers and are more likely to insult when they die then wtg or <S> (No Mark I am not calling you a picker...but you could be nicer on ch 200)Maybe you should look in the mirror Scotch and ask yourself what REALLY drives folks to want to be in a mob and not focus on fiter skills...is it truly the land grabbing squads OR is it the l33t furballers who are quick to insult and use their experience to make the newbie miserable instead of looking for "fair" fights and putting themselves into harms way?Now all that being said..how everyone chooses to fly is their own 14.95...Noone i used as an example above is doing anything unethical or wrong. I like shawk and his boys. I personally could care less...but lets stop pretending that the basetaking squads are worse. They thrive because THEY DO TAKE GUYS UNDER THEIR WING AND HELP THEM OUT!!! Your podium perched "furballers" like to pontificate but do nothing to advance the game. I have no idea who you are and I've been in aw/ah since 1996...and I truly won't miss you when your gone again. It WILL happen because you will never care enough about this game and its development to actually spend the time to do anything but pontificate. Talk is cheap and yours seems particularly worthless...Here is a tip you will likely dismiss....The way to change things is not by insulting but by leading...Thats what worked for BoPs and many other successful and longlived squads. And BTW BoPs came long after MAW and other squads...we didnt invent the megasquad...most active squads have multiple wings and did back then as well...
most of these guys you mentioned know better than to attack noobs on 200. Skyrock can be quite the charicter on 200, but Ive only witnessed him really go after guys that have been around the game a while. Also what to have in mind is that you will get much more respect when you show that you truley try to get good at what you do..no matter how many times you get shot down. You are never always going to reverse that guy..or probably ever coming out of that 2v1 firing one shot before your in the tower, but the effort has to be put. That always comes to a win/win situation if you work at it hard enough.
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Ive been in the bops going on 4 years noq and ive never heard falcnwng call over vox "so and so shot me down...all bops up with me and lets slap him silly" learn before you talk scotch.
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Scotch 9, Falconwing 3. I'm not nessesarily a furballer either.
I had a 3 wing 60+ person squad in AW in '96/'97. We were lucky to get 20 people on for squad night so you actually do need some numbers if you're going to try to get something meaningful going on a squad night. Back in those days you also needed numbers though because if your bombers didn't have gunners they were'nt gunned.
Another part of the deal now is that a lot of the squads are so young that they have all the time in the world to play and getting bunches of them online together isn't as big a deal.
I had a bit of a revelation tonight playing in the orange arena on the pinwheel map. As soon as a country takes too many bases then they suddenly can't defend them all. Then they get attacked and lose some and the circle jerk continues. The base capture guys are, in reality, doing nothing but chasing their tails. As an example, I took one base single handedly tonight and then defended it against an NOE single handedly. I had fun doing both but defending was more fun. Sooner or later this will get boring for them and they will either quit or learn to fight.
As to the vets taking people under their wings and teaching them the finer aspects of the fight well, some of us don't have the time or just want to play during the time that we do have. There are plenty of options available to anyone that wants to learn so don't lump this on the vets as being their fault.
While I agree that the hoards have gotten out of hand I totally understand them. There's still fun to be had in the arenas regardless of them.
If an NOE hoard sneaks your base while you're busy having fun furballing in a different sector of the map, really, what real harm have they done? By tomorrow that base will be yours again and so will a few of theirs.
It might not sound like I'm one of the learn to fight guys but in fact I am. What I don't like is everyone ganging on a single con. If people didn't do that one thing it would go a long way to relieving this issue. Overall I'm just beginning to think that there's far too much attention being placed on this. If we all just went into the arenas and looked at the map we'd all find what we're looking for. I think we really can all co-exist and we can all have fun doing it.
My advice: Pick your locations if you have to but just get out there and fight and have fun. Who cares what's going on on the other side of the map? And while your having fun be cordial to your opponents. Being nice to people never hurt anyone.
Sorry, random thoughts.
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Falconwing, with all due respect it doesn't matter if Scotch is evil incarnate. At least three quarters of the missions in the game either replace tactics with brute force in numbers, or never really show much air combat (totaly die anytime there's proper furballers on the target base, or just shut down/deny the fight via porking), or both. I'm not pointing fingers. I'm just saying you can't substitute a big mission roster for real air combat. Real air combat has some ACM substance to it, not just clobbering inanimate objects or steamrolling some furball with twice the numbers.
And the bit about furballers not coming down from their podium to put themselves in harm's way... It's almost become the norm for furballers (that I've talked to or whose posts I've read) to admit they fly almost exclusively on defense. Because most of the players they find in the game simply run away within two moves unless you bait them with enough sandbagging. That's not the way it should be. And yet those players once in the big multi-wing squads keep doing it.. which you'd think wouldn't happen if they were correctly taken under the squad's wing. If all they do is provide their virtual bodies to the mass-attack clan, they really aren't getting any help at all. On the contrary, the evidence points to them stagnating. This is rubbish. Plenty of guys in bombers and jabos will do as much retarded whining or scoffing at someone pointing out that they're killing a great furball by dropping hangars no one asked to be dropped.
Scotch's K/D.. You have to be kidding, right? Scotch could pull off a score in the top ten/twenty anytime. That's not what floats his boat tho; try fighting him on your own, that's what he's interested in. Stats don't mean jack.
I'm sorry Moot but I call bullcrap....very few of the self-annointed furballers put themselves in harms way...many of those I have mentioned are the first to run when a co-alt bogey shows up...to suggest otherwise is foolish...
and for Grizz....I only mention his stats because his own squaddie (Zazen) would not deem him worthy of respect according to a previous post...I was using it as an example of the pompous attitude exhibited by the folks who want to tell others how to play the game...If Zazen didnt know scotch he wouldn't talk to him...This is much more the attitude that causes folks to abandon ACM and stay with what IS fun for them...
My point is that IF furballing and ACM was the ultimate fun then only masochists would abandon it to gv, buff, jabo and capture fields. Perhaps people who like the social context of the game find the other aspects of the game more conducive to playing for hours instead of a few sorties. Crazy to think that most players could care less about who spent more time learning a cartoon airplane, throttle control and track-IR BUT instead pursue what gives them pleasure. If they were truly only part of large squads because they sucked at ACM and they really didn't like the pther aspects of the game...you would think they wouldn't spend $180/year and find another game to play.
As demonstrated earlier in this post...furballers can't even police their own arena (the DA). Maybe they should figure that out before they demand that squad C.O.'s dictate gameplay in the MA's.
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For a guy with a fiter k/d of 1.6 and a attack k/d of 0.6 you should spend a little time in the TA before you talk smack...I think the 2 weeker would have a better chance of killing you however.
Scotch isn't a score monkey, I'd put money on him in a 1v1 any day of the week. Rank and ability are rarely, if ever, combined.
Besides, making baseless attacks like that diminishes your argument, whatever your argument may be.
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Scotch 9, Falconwing 3. I'm not nessesarily a furballer either.
I had a 3 wing 60+ person squad in AW in '96/'97. We were lucky to get 20 people on for squad night so you actually do need some numbers if you're going to try to get something meaningful going on a squad night. Back in those days you also needed numbers though because if your bombers didn't have gunners they were'nt gunned.
Another part of the deal now is that a lot of the squads are so young that they have all the time in the world to play and getting bunches of them online together isn't as big a deal.
I had a bit of a revelation tonight playing in the orange arena on the pinwheel map. As soon as a country takes too many bases then they suddenly can't defend them all. Then they get attacked and lose some and the circle jerk continues. The base capture guys are, in reality, doing nothing but chasing their tails. As an example, I took one base single handedly tonight and then defended it against an NOE single handedly. I had fun doing both but defending was more fun. Sooner or later this will get boring for them and they will either quit or learn to fight.
As to the vets taking people under their wings and teaching them the finer aspects of the fight well, some of us don't have the time or just want to play during the time that we do have. There are plenty of options available to anyone that wants to learn so don't lump this on the vets as being their fault.
While I agree that the hoards have gotten out of hand I totally understand them. There's still fun to be had in the arenas regardless of them.
If an NOE hoard sneaks your base while you're busy having fun furballing in a different sector of the map, really, what real harm have they done? By tomorrow that base will be yours again and so will a few of theirs.
It might not sound like I'm one of the learn to fight guys but in fact I am. What I don't like is everyone ganging on a single con. If people didn't do that one thing it would go a long way to relieving this issue. Overall I'm just beginning to think that there's far too much attention being placed on this. If we all just went into the arenas and looked at the map we'd all find what we're looking for. I think we really can all co-exist and we can all have fun doing it.
My advice: Pick your locations if you have to but just get out there and fight and have fun. Who cares what's going on on the other side of the map? And while your having fun be cordial to your opponents. Being nice to people never hurt anyone.
Sorry, random thoughts.
The problem is most players just don't have the right stuff for learning proper acm. So they take shortcuts and horde or pork, or do the extremely timid pick/run/BNZ routine.
I did some 1:1 tutoring this weekend while trying to get used to new controls, and one thing it reminded me of that I'd realized a long time ago is that most players just lose patience when they realize how much drilling and discipline it takes to really be competitive. It's one thing to understand the concepts and know the right answer, and another to execute it correctly. Unfortunately even the theoretical step seems to totaly escape most players.
Idealy, the one best solution would be massive training. Just like in reality. Some way or other that'd effectively pour all there is in a book like Shaw's straight into their head. Then, and only then, would missions really be what they ought to be... Planners could actualy do some proper tactics, rather than the one-element missions we nearly always see.
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Scotch isn't a score monkey, I'd put money on him in a 1v1 any day of the week. Rank and ability are rarely, if ever, combined.
Besides, making baseless attacks like that diminishes your argument, whatever your argument may be.
Since I don't know the guy and haven't encountered him except once that I remember...that is all I have to go on...Take off your glasses Del...he was the one who suggested that I couldn't handle a two weeker and would target him with my minions to drive him from the game. He shouldn't dish out what he can't take...
I do believe that to an extent acm is reflected in stats...if you can't kill more then you are killed then you have poor judgement, skill or both. I defend, dont grab up, jabo, get vulched, attack toen acks and still have a k/d > 2 in attack. I'll never be called an alt-monkey and rarely vulch... Now does that mean I can beat Scotch in the DA? Dunno...since all he does is fly fiters i would hope he would be good at that...but i can control throttle and flaps and play lead turn games in the DA as well as any...i would be happy to see how that turns out... :cool:
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I'm sorry Moot but I call bullcrap....very few of the self-annointed furballers put themselves in harms way...many of those I have mentioned are the first to run when a co-alt bogey shows up...to suggest otherwise is foolish...
Uh.. no. I don't know how you ever got that impression. I was practicing with Bighorn a while back and he brought up a few points and all I could say was.. Dang, you're right.. all I do is fly defensively. I don't attack anymore, because they just run away. That was the truth and pretty much all the furball-oriented players I've talked to echoed it.
and for Grizz....I only mention his stats because his own squaddie (Zazen) would not deem him worthy of respect according to a previous post...I was using it as an example of the pompous attitude exhibited by the folks who want to tell others how to play the game...If Zazen didnt know scotch he wouldn't talk to him...This is much more the attitude that causes folks to abandon ACM and stay with what IS fun for them...
Your argument breaks down on the last point. What does one guy coming off as pompous have to do with the inarguable fact that ACM is the key to ability to survive and furball (whether for its own sake or during a mission, assuming the mission is seeing combat against players able to defend themselves and not just denial of hangars or porking desert base), which is what's fun.. Otherwise why play a multiplayer game at all? This is completely independent of whether Zazen comes off one way or another in whatever he says. If that is the reason given for not sticking to learning ACM, the player has some other issues.
My point is that IF furballing and ACM was the ultimate fun then only masochists would abandon it to gv, buff, jabo and capture fields. Perhaps people who like the social context of the game find the other aspects of the game more conducive to playing for hours instead of a few sorties. Crazy to think that most players could care less about who spent more time learning a cartoon airplane, throttle control and track-IR BUT instead pursue what gives them pleasure. If they were truly only part of large squads because they sucked at ACM and they really didn't like the pther aspects of the game...you would think they wouldn't spend $180/year and find another game to play.
No.. ACM is just one manifestation of combat. Combat is a martial art. It's not just one tactic, or strategy. It's not just one goal or way of doing things, it's a purpose: defeating the enemy. In AH, we don't have a war, we have a game taking the general mechanics of a specific part of WWII (air combat, plus some scraps of ground combat) that best adapt into a game. When you GV or Buff or Jabo, etc, you are recognizing the "enemy" or "problem" and coming up with whatever solution fits it. Like crafting a key you don't have for an unknown lock. The problem is that the game is no fun when you repeatedly come up with the same big sledgehammer tactic for any given lock. Furballing rich in ACM is so much higher on the fun pyramid than one-element insta-missions because it's more varied and gives the player more tools to pick that lock with. More ingredients for whatever they want to cook up.
It's the same with every other part of AH. In GVs, it would be absolutely boring to simply have a totaly square column of GVs coming right from the spawn and capturing the base, with no peril, no challenge, no unknowns, just one big steamroll. It might as well be AI.
I didn't say you had to suck at ACM to go for big squads.. But the overall trend is definitely that the big squads don't breed the best sticks in terms of acm. They're attractive mainly because they more or less guarantee the safety (in numbers) those players couldn't gain on their own by properly climbing the acm/sa/gunnery/timing learning curve on their own. That's a general trend, not an absolute rule. I'm not trying to be condescending.. It's just what's been obvious since I started the game. And it's pretty similar to some dynamics that you find in reality, with people's way of life.
As demonstrated earlier in this post...furballers can't even police their own arena (the DA). Maybe they should figure that out before they demand that squad C.O.'s dictate gameplay in the MA's.
Pigeon holing. e.g... The blue knights or muppets have nothing to do with e.g. the TAaerofighter squad or the mass of tempest/25k A6M/timid griefers. Nothing.
But yes... As the leader of such large squads that you yourself admit accepts so many in its ranks, so indescriminately, you do have some responsibility for what all those green players turn into. It would be responsible to have them learn proper ACM, etc. Whether you then lead them on to furballing or base taking or whatever, is totaly up to you and not anyone else's call. But at least make whatever you do do justice to what AH is supposed to be about. Air Combat. Not Air Porking or Air Drones.
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Animl...
A few years ago I might have agreed. Way to many of the newer players simply don't want to "get it" and why should they? The game rewards them for what they do...why change? In their myopic view, everything is fine.
I believe it will take fundamental changes to the game to alter this behavior. Heck, HT has made a number of changes in recent years to try and "make it better" (this, in part, is why we have split arenas).
What is more sad than anything else is the guys with the "it's my $15 and I will do what I want!" attitudes.
I agree 100%. It's going to take a combination...IMO. I think MAYBE some environment tweaking and reverting back closer to reality, and the attitude of the vets of this game being more vocal.
I'm sure HTC is willing accommodate the masses if they knew what the magic answer was. I also think the initial plan of this game\sim maybe needs a reminder too. The game as a whole is great to me.
IMO,..we\they\everyone needs to quit pointing at who is who did what when where. I say this with no fowl intentions,...It's irrelevant. We don't need to know names and places, that distracts from the core of the subject and gets lost in what got us here in the first place.
I think people just stating a clear point and repliers saying yes I agree or no I don't and why is going to get more done faster. And that's the response I was hoping for in Scotch's last post <snork!> Ya I know. If there is something you don't agree with submit a tweak to it, build on it. Get serious for a change. The goal is to get a group message out, impliment it and cause a reaction. We can piece 2 and 2 who's who together between the arena and here. It's one of those "you know who you are" things.
Look at it like the shape of the USA. It's going to take smart delicate hands (no matter who it is) to get it back on track. And you'll get a whole lot more done with sugar then salt. If they really think it's too late they best hang the egos at the door and get something done.
If someone is willing to decompress and start doing things that help the sim and community, then they are ok in my book. Not that it matters to anyone.
> What is more sad than anything else is the guys with the "it's my $15 and I will do what I want!" attitudes.
Ya that's just great <eye roll>, what about the other guy's $15? IMO,..Taunting someone is one thing, stepping on their face is another. If their response is "screw them" they prolly don't deserve a listen in the first place. Everyone pays $15, that makes it a moot point (no pun intended).
I hear ya.
<S>
Animl
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BaldEagl I am only addressing the following paragraph from your post.
"As to the vets taking people under their wings and teaching them the finer aspects of the fight well, some of us don't have the time or just want to play during the time that we do have. There are plenty of options available to anyone that wants to learn so don't lump this on the vets as being their fault."
In other threads I have stated that I just don't understand what the issue is concerning how the game is played. I then read how all the vets state how little the new players know about ACM and other such things. Then I read that the only way that the new players can learn is learn from the community which I would interpret as being taught by the players that know (vets).
I then run across a post concerning how the vets just don't have the time or whatever to teach the new folks. I hope you don't mean that the new players have to solely depend on the Aces High Training Staff for their information. As much help that they are, they are still few in numbers, and there is no way they can staff the TA to provide this training around the clock for new players.
Right when I think I understand, I get confused again. The old timers want the new guys to learn, but they do not want to take the responsibility to help teach them.
I'm not speaking about all, because I have had some assistance from some of the "old pros". Just recently I was honored to work one on one with Delirum. It was a learning experience, and I'm still trying to put in practice what I learned, that is when I can keep an "old vet" from picking me when I'm in a one on one. :)
So I ask this question respectfully. If the "vets" don't have time and/or desire to help teach, then who should the new players turn to?
Another confusing moment
Fred
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BaldEagl I am only addressing the following paragraph from your post.
"As to the vets taking people under their wings and teaching them the finer aspects of the fight well, some of us don't have the time or just want to play during the time that we do have. There are plenty of options available to anyone that wants to learn so don't lump this on the vets as being their fault."
In other threads I have stated that I just don't understand what the issue is concerning how the game is played. I then read how all the vets state how little the new players know about ACM and other such things. Then I read that the only way that the new players can learn is learn from the community which I would interpret as being taught by the players that know (vets).
I then run across a post concerning how the vets just don't have the time or whatever to teach the new folks. I hope you don't mean that the new players have to solely depend on the Aces High Training Staff for their information. As much help that they are, they are still few in numbers, and there is no way they can staff the TA to provide this training around the clock for new players.
Right when I think I understand, I get confused again. The old timers want the new guys to learn, but they do not want to take the responsibility to help teach them.
I'm not speaking about all, because I have had some assistance from some of the "old pros". Just recently I was honored to work one on one with Delirum. It was a learning experience, and I'm still trying to put in practice what I learned, that is when I can keep an "old vet" from picking me when I'm in a one on one. :)
So I ask this question respectfully. If the "vets" don't have time and/or desire to help teach, then who should the new players turn to?
Another confusing moment
Fred
Name one good stick who refuses to help out a new guy. You can't do it.
The problem lies with the fact that ACM is not an easy skill to learn, it takes countless times being sent to the tower. Why take 6 months (at least) to learn too have 1/2 of at clue what your doing, when you can shoot at town buildings to give you instant gratification.
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Name one good stick who refuses to help out a new guy. You can't do it.
The problem lies with the fact that ACM is not an easy skill to learn, it takes countless times being sent to the tower. Why take 6 months (at least) to learn too have 1/2 of at clue what your doing, when you can shoot at town buildings to give you instant gratification.
I think you need to reread my post. I think you may be the one confused this time.
Fred
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I'm not speaking about all, because I have had some assistance from some of the "old pros". Just recently I was honored to work one on one with Delirum.
I'm not really old (34 years young), nor am I a pro, but regardless it was my pleasure to help you.
Seeing your flying change right before my eyes was great stuff. You became much more aggressive and confident, I hope the time makes your time on AH all the better. If the joy of being in AH increases, it will definitely make me smile as well.
I've said it before, but I'll say it again (and this isn't aimed at Bmwgs.
I don't care what anyone does in AH (furballing, GVing, or even base taking), just be good at what you do and don't use the horde as a substitute for skill.
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This will probably be the only time that I directly address Falcon in the rest of this thread, because my intent is not a flame war. According to some, such as Falcon is implying, your opinion only matters if you've been around a long time and if people know you, never mind the actual message. 2 years as Scotch on the bbs isn't long enough so I'll post under this account instead. Hopefully this one is old enough for the date droppers. :pray
Your podium perched "furballers" like to pontificate but do nothing to advance the game. I have no idea who you are and I've been in aw/ah since 1996...and I truly won't miss you when your gone again. It WILL happen because you will never care enough about this game and its development to actually spend the time to do anything but pontificate. Talk is cheap and yours seems particularly worthless
Wow! You really know me well! For a guy with a fiter k/d of 1.6 and a attack k/d of 0.6 you should spend a little time in the TA before you talk smack...I think the 2 weeker would have a better chance of killing you however. :devil According to your squaddie zazen since your attack and fiter score sucks he wouldn't even respect you enough to be civil to you.
Here is a tip you will likely dismiss....The way to change things is not by insulting but by leading.
I don't remember you from Air Warrior either, however I came into contact with many many people and can't remember all of them from over 10 years ago. I do know you from here. But while you were scoring it up in the Romper Room back in AW, I was volunteering 2 hours a day every Sunday morning leading classes of 2-5 as an AWAR Trainer under Rodan and Infidel/NB on AOL AW3. In addition I uploaded numerous films and fuel charts to their archives as well as created a website with ACM write ups of my own. I also led a squad and spent a large amount of time transitioning pilots from RR to FR. I then transfered to Gamestorm when the newer training area was opening up, right before total demise.
Here in Aces High I regularly help out anyone who asks and sometimes people who don't. As I mentioned before I am constantly in the DA working with people. I also will answer the occasional question on the Help forums. Funny I have not seen you post there much at all. I cannot think of one 'furballer' that will not or has not gone out of their way to actually help some one. After all, a furballer needs another skilled furballer to have a good fight. The more the better. Your claims that this 'elitist' group is too high on their horse holds no water for that simple fact. They need other skilled fighters to fly against. And they absolutely hate the horde mentality stealing away good pilots to sucky-dom.
I'd wager to guess that a search of the name SkyRock will yield many results of a player saying that once he took them to the DA, he was the most helpful person they had ever encountered.
I realize my k/d stats might not be good enough for the likes of you. I have the bad habbit of lawn darting when I see a sheep on terra firma. :D I could point to the tour when I tried for score and finished 3rd behind Shawk and Rod? But that's fairly insignificant imo. I'm okay with that. But if you ever get the nerve, I always love the good fight.
I have, and will continue to put in my share of work towards the progression of this game. Which is what spawned the creation of this thread in the first place. If you re-read my posts, you will see that I have no problem with the gv'er or land grabber. They can drive PT boats if they want. The issue I bring up is Hording as a crutch rather than working to master whatever function of the game you find the most enjoyable. And specifically what these hordes are doing to the games future.
Now the rest of your quotes I will respond to by posting one simple film. People can take from it what they want. They should read the below quotes from you before watching it though.
It's funny that it took another Muppet to actually come in and kill me. The 38,spit, 51, f4f etc were all very cute and I understand that 13minutes of 'extending' must be taxing on the fuel tank. :salute He caught me looking at Sheeps Quarterly in the beginning. It was the May '99 issue. ;)
And Scotch...trying to vulch my out of gas tempest landing after chasing me back to base really lets me know how much "honor" and "old guard" you really are...
Our 2 weeker ups out of an airbase....a pair of tempests are lurking over the base...as soon as he clears the field ack they take passes at him until he gets nailed...."kappa killed you" "fester killed you" pops up over and over again...he ups a distant base to try and get some alt and by the time he arrives they are gone. WTG's all around when they land their kills...
Ive been in the bops going on 4 years noq and ive never heard falcnwng call over vox "so and so shot me down...all bops up with me and lets slap him silly" learn before you talk scotch.
Since I don't know the guy and haven't encountered him except once that I remember...that is all I have to go on...Take off your glasses Del...he was the one who suggested that I couldn't handle a two weeker and would target him with my minions to drive him from the game. He shouldn't dish out what he can't take...
I do believe that to an extent acm is reflected in stats...if you can't kill more then you are killed then you have poor judgement, skill or both. I defend, dont grab up, jabo, get vulched, attack toen acks and still have a k/d > 2 in attack. I'll never be called an alt-monkey and rarely vulch... Now does that mean I can beat Scotch in the DA? Dunno...since all he does is fly fiters i would hope he would be good at that...but i can control throttle and flaps and play lead turn games in the DA as well as any...i would be happy to see how that turns out... :cool:
Falconwng vs Scotch
http://www.speedyshare.com/499252370.html
Anyways.. :salute
Scotch
also once known as:
Thias, Kyatoru, AWARKya, BHKya, #3106, #1657
in:
AOL AW2, Mac AW (AOL/GS) AOL/GS AW3, WB's, AH Beta, AH2.
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<S> everyone else.
I'll respond later. Time to fly!
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Which 10? What date? Do you remember the AI you fought? How about the fights you didn't have??
I don't remember the fights I didn't have. :rofl :rofl
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That's some great flying Falc. :aok
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:lol
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(http://www.google.com/url?source=imgres&ct=img&q=http://mr11.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/zerg_rush.jpg&usg=AFQjCNFbeDNRkvVg4jJ_-cijRgRMpLnCzg)
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I'm not really old (34 years young), nor am I a pro, but regardless it was my pleasure to help you.
Seeing your flying change right before my eyes was great stuff. You became much more aggressive and confident, I hope the time makes your time on AH all the better. If the joy of being in AH increases, it will definitely make me smile as well.
I've said it before, but I'll say it again (and this isn't aimed at Bmwgs.
I don't care what anyone does in AH (furballing, GVing, or even base taking), just be good at what you do and don't use the horde as a substitute for skill.
<snork!>
:cool:
Animl
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lol
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:lol Is dive to own field ack ACM?
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Anyone think that removing the mission tab might solve anything?
I think it would solve the problems of if you want to run missions, your squad has to work together. Although I do think people would work around this, I think it would reduce the glamorizing of joining a 30 man smack and grab mission. Especially to the new guy
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Anyone think that removing the mission tab might solve anything?
I think it would solve the problems of if you want to run missions, your squad has to work together. Although I do think people would work around this, I think it would reduce the glamorizing of joining a 30 man smack and grab mission. Especially to the new guy
Don't think it would have much of an effect. They could just coordinate the same without the mission feature...then again, it might be a more painfull process to get a large group together in same planes. I don't really think the mission tab is the issue, it's more of how it is used. I don't think there is really anything wrong with missions themselves. Maybe adding more tools to alert the opponent that a large horde is inbound. Then again, the real issue is the idea that the end always justifies the means. Skip over the journey part as much as possible.
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This is the one encounter I have with you to date but lets put it into perspective...this happened within the last week so I remember it well. I was actually looking to post this so its awesome you did...
I logged on and viper215 asked for help to help take a knit base from a cv. I upped a f4u-1c and flew to the base where we provided cover for a goon to sneak in. Scotch was Bish at this point. At one point I see him with a spit grabbing up behind him closing fast so I vox "omw scotch" and nail the spit. I say "your clear" and the response is "I was roping him" ....hmm sounds a little annoyed so i check my roster and see he is AoM. Tec is in the area too. Ok i get it...but he never called me off. Doesn't know me but instead of saying "thanks" or something pleasant i'm made to feel like i stole a kill during a base take (no vulching). OK lesson learned...
We take the base thanks to tcfkas sneaking a goon in and i up a tempest to defend the CV. The knit darbar is growing so i figure they will go for the cv. I go afk and come back 1 sector off the knit base...my squaddies are fighting in between the bases so i figure i'll handle the higher planes and make them dive. I see a 109 grabbing away from the furball so i make a few passes and boom it is dead. Oh snap..its Scotch...he has switched countries...didn't think helping him would be so offensive but ok.
I go back to help my squaddies and later see a 109 grabbing away again...I'm slower now and don't want to get jumped so i head over to try and make him lose alt/e. I know I can't turnfight him and he can hammerhead me a lot better in the 109g then i can in the tempest. Well he is target fixated...follows me everywhere. Im getting low fuel so I head back to base...at least I'll get him away from the fight...he is locked out 1000 by my views...so my game changes....no kill for him :t He can slow better then me so the old..."cut throttle and he will fly right by technique not likely to work". He is in a better turner so that probably won't work....
Well he ignores many good fights and follows me into the field....I run out of fuel over the field and have to try and ditch...the bish around me let me know he is coming and sure enough as I am touching down he is trying to vulch me landing (let me know which training class that is please). I slide to a halt and land successfully...tower views show him getting destroyed by the ack...
Now i could have vulched him taking off...I could have been gamey...but he actually sees flying a tempest according to the situation as something worth posting...I could have taunted him or pm'd him...but to him this is a bad encounter...he gets ganged in the end because he chose to follow me for so long and so far into enemy cons....He had the numbers back at his base...Again I'm not impressed :salute
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That's some great flying Falc. :aok
I have to give Scotch the nod in that fight. Although he has an over developed sense of vengeance. I mean he went after a tempest with a 109. I'm not sure which 109 though. He had to dodge an f4F, p38, p51 etc all the while. But Scotch, you sure missed a great shot on that p51. Fedj was practically stalled in front of you. Too much target fixation there.
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This is the one encounter I have with you to date but lets put it into perspective...this happened within the last week so I remember it well. I was actually looking to post this so its awesome you did...
I logged on and viper215 asked for help to help take a knit base from a cv. I upped a f4u-1c and flew to the base where we provided cover for a goon to sneak in. Scotch was Bish at this point. At one point I see him with a spit grabbing up behind him closing fast so I vox "omw scotch" and nail the spit. I say "your clear" and the resonse is "I was roping him" ....hmm sounds a little annoyed so i check my roster and see he is AoM. Tec is in the area too. Ok i get it...but he never called me off. Doesn't know me but instead of saying "thanks" or something pleasant i'm made to feel like i stole a kill during a base take (no vulching). OK lesson learned...
We take the base thanks to tcfkas sneaking a goon in and i up a tempest to defend the CV. The knit darbar is growing so i figure they will go for the cv. I go afk and come back 1 sector off the knit base...my squaddies are fighting in between the bases so i figure i'll handle the higher planes and make them dive. I see a 109 grabbing away from the furball so i make a few passes and boom it is dead. Oh snap..its Scotch...he has switched countries...didn't think helping him would be so offensive but ok.
I go back to help my squaddies and later see a 109 grabbing away again...I'm slower now and don't want to get jumped so i head over to try and make him lose alt/e. I know I can't turnfight him and he can hammerhead me a lot better in the 109g then i can in the tempest. Well he is target fixated...follows me everywhere. Im getting low fuel so I head back to base...at least I'll get him away from the fight...he is locked out 1000 by my views...so my game changes....no kill for him :t He can slow better then me so the old..."cut throttle and he will fly right by technique not likely to work". He is in a better turner so that probably won't work....
Well he ignores many good fights and follows me into the field....I run out of fuel over the field and have to try and ditch...the bish around me let me know he is coming and sure enough as I am touching down he is trying to vulch me landing (let me know which training class that is please). I slide to a halt and land successfully...tower views show him getting destroyed by the ack...
Now i could have vulched him taking off...I could have been gamey...but he actually sees flying a tempest according to the situation as something worth posting...I could have taunted him or pm'd him...but to him this is a bad encounter...he gets ganged in the end because he chose to follow me for so long and so far into enemy cons....He had the numbers back at his base...Again I'm not impressed :salute
Wow bro, you run to your ack and reverse him, nothing in this game is lamer than that. nuthin.
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Wow bro, you run to your ack and reverse him, nothing in this game is lamer than that. nuthin.
2 sides to every story. Sure could use that film as a training tool for some folks (Not going to mention any names). It shows what to do and what not to do. Scotch had ample opportunity to leave. I don't think it's gamey to fly through field ack or town ack etc if that helps your cause. If someone wants you that bad shame on them. Still though I admire scotch for going after a higher tempest and take note he gave keystone a check 6 when Keystone would have been good bait. Notice too that keystone landed 3 kills because of scotch.
I think I know why Scotch hates land grabbing now though. His own ack killed him. :rofl :rofl :rofl
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2 sides to every story. Sure could use that film as a training tool for some folks (Not going to mention any names). It shows what to do and what not to do. Scotch had ample opportunity to leave. I don't think it's gamey to fly through field ack or town ack etc if that helps your cause. If someone wants you that bad shame on them. Still though I admire scotch for going after a higher tempest and take note he gave keystone a check 6 when Keystone would have been good bait. Notice too that keystone landed 3 kills because of scotch.
I think I know why Scotch ates land grabbing now though. His own ack killed him. :rofl :rofl :rofl
LOL what 2 sides falcon diddnt want to loose his perks so he ran to his ack, it's as simple as that. I
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I think everyone is getting to picky here....its the furballers fault.... its the landgrabbers fault....there is no need to pick on anyones way to play the game, however the problem we have is most are NOT playing the game. The game is combat (murdr will be along with the quote from HT soon :D ) Hiding from the fight inside the horde, or under dar is the problem. The game is all about combat so why do so many hide from combat? If you don't want to be in combat why are you playing the game? Maybe you suck at combat, well learn to fight! It was pointed out that it is the responsibility of the vets to teach.... what a load of crap! The only responsibility anyone has in this game is to fight, period. On the other hand I have NEVER heard of a vet not helping someone who asked. The are a ton of resources here to learn to fight whether its in a fighter, a buff, or a GV.
Too many people want the easy way tho, so they hide in a crowd, or sneak undefended base in NOEs and run at the first sign of resistance. If a player comes to play this game they should want to fight, that should be enough incentive to learn to do it. Todays players are too busy looking at the scoreboard trying to climb to the top and "win the game". The score board doesn't show that though, it shows a board easily manipulated.
It seems like a pretty easy solution, learn to fight ! Nobody really dies, because its a game, and the game is combat! Learn to use your panzer to pick off that M8 as its racing across the countyside in a flanking move. Learn to level a town in a pass or two of buff groups. Learn to fight 3 vs 1 in fighters. Thats what this game is about. Learn to use the equipment and tactics to promote fights, and use strategy to win those fights.
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Wow, and to think this all started when scotch accused POTW as being horders and base takers. Hey im all for the dogfight, i say we fix it to where you cant take bases any more to promote dogfighting just like Combat Flight Simulator did.... oh wait that game doesnt exist anymore. Simply because there was only one thing you could do and that was dogfight. Doing the same thing over and over gets boring after a while which i think makes this game thrive. For those of you that dislike the gameplay of others and quit, then there will only be someone to take your place. Because there are so many things different things to do. I dont care for the people that talk crap on 200 like they have the little man syndrome. That irritates me to no end but it wont stop me from playing. Just enjoy the things you do. thats what is important ,after all it is only a game. :salute
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LOL what 2 sides falcon diddnt want to loose his perks so he ran to his ack, it's as simple as that. I
You can have all 5000+ of my fiter perks if you value them that much :rofl :lol
No...i freely admit that when i saw how trgt fixated the tool was and given our previous encounter that i decided he was not going to get a kill on me...he flew well enough to lock 1k behind me and didnt give me many options...so base ack it was....
The fact he flew by many fights to reach me and missed easy shots on others is just funny...but the fact he decided he was going to vulch me landing is pathetic...I'm shocked he decided to post this film but I'm happy he did. I'm glad the AoM embraces that as nothing to be suprised at...i personally was suprised...
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It makes me laugh that people think running to there ack is valid tactic. The fact that you think that was your only option is Even funnier to me. Maby if you stayed and fought, instead of getting outta dodge at the first sighn of trouble, you would know what to do in that situation. you had options, and your never gonna find out what they are by ack running.
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Wow, I've been accused of taking the game way too seriously but some of you have real issues. I could honestly care less how Falconwng or Scotch flies. My only thought is what can I learn from this film if anything. Like I said it's a great training film for some folks. Personally I have no problem with Falconwng using ack, Isn't that why it's there? Haven't we all vulched. Now mostly I avoid vulching with ack up. I've done it in the pass on a limited basis though.
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It makes me laugh that people think running to there ack is valid tactic.
I saw an episode of "Dogfights" where a German did it...but I guess you can chalk it up to it being one of them dirty Nazis... :devil
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It makes me laugh that people think running to there ack is valid tactic.
of course it is, if you find it a problem either kill em quicker or engage further from their ack so they cant run to it. I engaged some B24s yesterday in a spit VIII, managed a kill on the 2nd pass and went back for more. the 24s headed straight to their nearest friendly base and due to some well timed turns, accurate gunning and use of a shallow dive managed to take only non-critical damage. I kept attacking into the edge of ack range then broke off. a bit annoying that 2 of em made it home but drfritz got a salute for it rather than a whine about ack running. I should have made my first passes count and nailed him before he got to his ack...
edit: if its an ack running fighter, well you may not have killed him but you have neutralised his threat. thats a tactical win.
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BaldEagl I am only addressing the following paragraph from your post.
"As to the vets taking people under their wings and teaching them the finer aspects of the fight well, some of us don't have the time or just want to play during the time that we do have. There are plenty of options available to anyone that wants to learn so don't lump this on the vets as being their fault."
In other threads I have stated that I just don't understand what the issue is concerning how the game is played. I then read how all the vets state how little the new players know about ACM and other such things. Then I read that the only way that the new players can learn is learn from the community which I would interpret as being taught by the players that know (vets).
I then run across a post concerning how the vets just don't have the time or whatever to teach the new folks. I hope you don't mean that the new players have to solely depend on the Aces High Training Staff for their information. As much help that they are, they are still few in numbers, and there is no way they can staff the TA to provide this training around the clock for new players.
Right when I think I understand, I get confused again. The old timers want the new guys to learn, but they do not want to take the responsibility to help teach them.
I'm not speaking about all, because I have had some assistance from some of the "old pros". Just recently I was honored to work one on one with Delirum. It was a learning experience, and I'm still trying to put in practice what I learned, that is when I can keep an "old vet" from picking me when I'm in a one on one. :)
So I ask this question respectfully. If the "vets" don't have time and/or desire to help teach, then who should the new players turn to?
Another confusing moment
Fred
There's no need to be confused. There are more than the trainers availble. There's the trainers web-site, the Help and Training forum, the Aircraft and Vehicle forum and numerous outside resources. And who do you think the primary contributors are to these? You guessed right... the vets.
Did I forget to mention those that ARE willing to go to the DA or TA with a newer player? Did I forget those that are in squads and can take the time to impart knowledge as they fly their missions? When my squad had more than the two people we have in it now there was a guy, already a pretty good stick, that was always on squad channel asking me about plane match-ups; can this outrun that? Can that out-turn this? I was gald to help because it wasn't something extracuricular that I had to do. I could do it while continuing on with my flight.
I suppose I'd be willing to help people but no one ever asks. At some point the new player has to have some initiative of their own to want to learn and if they do there's plenty of knowledge already available.
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edit: if its an ack running fighter, well you may not have killed him but you have neutralised his threat. thats a tactical win.
Then you can move on to the others that need killin!
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15 min AFTER attack town, hangars, VH is popping.. mission fail.
you bring goons in at 5-7 k the troops will get shot, guaranteed.. mission fail.
try to "escort" the goons down from 5-7k.. they will get killed, even if you outnumber the enemy 5 to 1...
so many things wrong with this statement. town doesn't pop in 15, only hangars. he never said drop the troops at 5-7, no one would do that. and if you can't protect a goon with 5 planes i think something other than common sense is lacking big time.
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I'm glad the AoM embraces that as nothing to be suprised at...i personally was suprised...
If in fact you were running from a fight, then a vulch on landing is quite appropriate. :devil
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Didn't watch any film. If I am looking for a fight and do not see anyone that can give me a decent go, I move to another area.
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Seems to me Falconwing only had two options...Run or die. He knew it was Scotch, what was he going to do, turn and fight and win? LMAO.
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Ah, what the heck, I rarely chime in on these discussions, but here's my two cents worth:
NOE missions have been around for ages. Back in the day, we Assassins would do them on a pretty routine basis if we couldn't find decent fights anywhere, or to make the opposing countries focus on more than just one place (interpreted, they were hording, but we didn't call it that back then).
We didn't need, nor did we have online at any one time, more than 7-8 guys to take a base down. Zigrat was pretty good at figuring out and planning our "mishuns" and we took the aircraft need to 1) take down the town; 2) provide a small CAP as needed; and 3) get the goon(s) in safely.
There was no need for massive amounts of players in the missions. It was all about planning the thing out beforehand and then executing it.
Personally, that is what I find both amusing and offensive about the huge amounts of enemies I see assaulting a base. The attackers, due to the general lack of response from defenders, or a delayed one if you will, end up milling around overhead, then when a defender ups from the base, the race is on to see who can get the kill. Looks like the fish in "Finding Nemo", you can almost hear the attackers screaming "mine! mine! No! He's mine!!!"
The other day, I think it was Saturday, a couple Muppets and myself helped break up a raid on our base, then we took the fight to the attackers' base......and what did we find there? The attackers, now on the defensive, were like that school of fish in "Nemo"....hovering close together, not daring to come fight....point your nose at them, and they, en masse, turned and ran back to their base and the safety of the ack. Amusing....especially considering that I am a less than average stick, lose as many as I win, blow E, overshoot, miss shots all the time cause my aim sucks, etc........but I do follow what I read once about a fighter pilot (even a cartoon one) being AGGRESSIVE....I attack, I press the issue, even if I die, for that is much preferred to staying high and safe and watching rather than engaging/fighting.
Last night, the bish were attacking from A77 to A80 (I believe that was the base we got swarmed at). For over three hours, they stayed overhead, took the acks down almost from the onset, then setup a vulchfest. I played their game a bit, got shot down 3 or 4 times, then I decided to take the game to them.....took a YAK and launched due S, stayed on the deck.....first time, I made it all the way to 77 and harassed 4 or 5 cons just for fun before being shot down, tried it again, made it about 2 minutes S before a 109 came screamin down at me and I broke too hard and she snaprolled into the ground (remember, I said I am a less than average pilot in AH), went again, and made it back down to 77, engaged 4 cons, shot down 2, then headed back N to help at our base. Stupidly, I wasted my E and got into a turning fight and Banshee nailed me in his trusty ole P-40E (<S> sir!). Mind you, and this was the puzzling part for me......I never saw even ONE goon or M3 the entire time I was defending the base or running harassment sorties!!
All in all, a frustrating start, but I turned it into a fun time (for myself at least), with the exception of the stinking Wirbelwind who parked off the end of the runway and started firing at uppers.....IMHO, once a GV opens fire, his icon should pop up and stay lit up til he dies......and not the BS 1.5K, all the way to 6.0K range...GVer's can ID a plane from his icon LONG before he even spots them, which is total nonsense to me. I signed up to Aces High back in 1999 to fight aircraft, not get sniped by players who I can't even see until I am within their kill zone. Utter nonsense IMHO.
(Deep breath, rant mode OFF)
Falconwing, it wasn't base ack that got Scotch, it was me....I didn't know he had changed sides and I took the shot when it presented itself....then found I had committed Muppetcide!! :( :huh :uhoh :furious
I don't see a solution to the problem....I know everyone pays their subscription to play the game the way they see fit and the way they enjoy, but if you and your squad wanna do the horde thing, please, PLEASE, DON'T get on 200 whining about someone HOing you....when you vastly outnumber someone, do you expect them to try and saddle up (preferred ACM most of the time IMO) so your horde can swarm them? From personal ingame experience, it's better to get your licks in, take a few of your enemies with you when you are outnumbered.....and that means pretty much anything goes. I'm not into naming names of the guilty, but one very vocal leader of a horde was on 200 yesterday morning complaining that someone had HO'd him......given the fact that I have never see the accuser flying lone wolf, solo, he is always surrounded by a swarm of his countrymen, I'd say "don't fly with the horde and they won't resort to last ditch HO's". (not referring to you, Falconwing....someone else, a squad CO who loves to horde then run home and land those kills)
I know this was a ramble, but there was a LOT to cover from the things I've read in this thread.
<S>!
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Falconwing are you going to just ignore my reply to your post?
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You can have all 5000+ of my fiter perks if you value them that much :rofl :lol
No...i freely admit that when i saw how trgt fixated the tool was and given our previous encounter that i decided he was not going to get a kill on me...he flew well enough to lock 1k behind me and didnt give me many options...so base ack it was....
The fact he flew by many fights to reach me and missed easy shots on others is just funny...but the fact he decided he was going to vulch me landing is pathetic...I'm shocked he decided to post this film but I'm happy he did. I'm glad the AoM embraces that as nothing to be suprised at...i personally was suprised...
common falcon, I seem to remember an event several months ago involving a 38 landing and a certain la7, passing everyone else up at a field to vulch me (think pw at the time)...though killed by ack in the attempt... From the film, it seemed as initally you where rtb, until you saw him move on the spit, at which point you grabbed for alt advantage and turned...guessing you were hoping to kill him while involved with the spit...then trying to rope the 109 for the spit, didn't work, so then back to diving for ack, then try to shoot him when engaged with the pony.
Really not a whole lot to see, though good move from scotch the pony towards the end, it is a good film if you want to see how to fly very timidly and run. must have been a boring sortie though, less than 2 kills on a tank of gas (hate those). You see this type of gameplay so often, it's hard to imagine why anyone wouldn't want to hunt down someone who appears to be there just to pick and run...not knowing your fuel state ammo load etc...it appears that is what was happening. It is an example of someone who just wants to fight, vs. someone who doesn't seem to really want to take the chance of losing. I'm sure scotch new what he was getting into, I don't think he was noob target fixated, he just wanted your scalp.
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He's only running till I see "bingo" on 200. Then he's RTB.
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Runs from the co-e fight (actually he had the e advantage to start), turns only when he will have the advantage, doesn't get his way and so runs to hide in the ack, again turns to take a shot when Scotch is engaged with the pony, runs back to ack.
Barf.
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Barf.
:rofl
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The film of Falconweenie is the perfect example of the "hoarde aces". They fly high and pic already engaged targets and when confronted with a 1vs1, run until they get to friendlys. Once around friendlys they use them for bait knowing full well that they will pick up the chase giving thenm a chance to ....well pick a already engaged target. If that doesn't work they'll fly to their ack hoping the ack will do what they haven't got the skill to do on their own. This is where you'll see the "hoarde aces" acms. He'll then and only then use ever trick in his very thin book to keep the bad guy in the ack until it finally finishes him off.
It's a sad and discusting display that happens all to often. Scotch was doing everything in his power to get a 1vs1 fight, and falconweenie did all he could to avoid it. These are the kind of tactics that the hordes use and for that reason alone, they'll never be good on their own merits. They simply can not function on their own.
Falconweenie, I deem you a skilless, more concerned about the cowardly kill then a honest fight.
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Moot I'll try to respond tonight...there is justso much to respond too :devil
So lets get this right fellahs...
First sortie on film...Scotch gets target fixated on a p38 and doesnt see me behind him til too late...he tries a weak maneuver and i cut throttle and wiing over and finish him....pathetic really
Second sortie...Scotch ups and again grabs alt...great furball going on all around but he wants that bad tempest. He flies by multiple enemy planes and insists on following the tempest home. A spit from my base tries a bounce...i turn around because the spit pilot starts griping at me about how he helped me and im leaving him alone...so i turn back around and make one pass to free him up...the 109 locks in on me again so i drag him back to base...he insists on flying in the base ack...doesn't get a kill and dies trying to vulch me landing...
2 sorties...no kills...2 deaths....
But the reason his k/d sucks is because he picks really tuff fights....hmmm :eek:
I think it is a perfect representation of the elite so-called furball crowd....I didn't ho, horde, noe, ram or pick him...but I am a poor pilot..... :confused:
No the truth is that unless they can kill you on their terms then there is something wrong with you. Again i am amused that this the film being shown....I am sure there are much worse films of me out there...I can only hope there are better ones of him...
And don't lump BKs and AoM together....the BKs are a truer furballing squad then AoM has ever been...Stang, Jaxxo Hubs et al are part of what once made this community more interesting for ACM.
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Anyone think that removing the mission tab might solve anything?
I think it would solve the problems of if you want to run missions, your squad has to work together. Although I do think people would work around this, I think it would reduce the glamorizing of joining a 30 man smack and grab mission. Especially to the new guy
+1
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Been playing AH since Jan 2002. I've seen no significant changes in how folks play the game during that time. I realize some will disagree and imply the game is going to hell but I see 400 to 600 people playing each night that seem to still be enjoying themselves, or maybe they are all masochists?
Is it possible that part of the problem lies within? Is there a even a remote chance of some level of burnout... but of course not and how dare I even suggest such a thing! Yet if in fact it's the "other players" who are ruining the game then I think you'd be well served to ask yourself "can I change the behavior of 400 other individuals?" Good luck with that.
Some of the complaining in here reminds me of a gal I dated years ago. She didn't like my car, my clothes, my furniture, my hair, my friends, my apartment... Finally I "put her out of her misery" and released her back into the wild. Now I figure she's making some other poor b@st@rd miserable.
Is AH perfect? Well that is in the eye of the beholder, but she looks damn good to me. I'm still having a blast and if I ever get to the stage where I'm not having fun I'll pack it in and move on to something else.
I can only imagine how the creators of this game must react inwardly to all the complaints. It's admirable for them to give everyone a forum to provide feedback, but at what point does it stop being constructive and start becoming destructive? I give them a lot of credit for their tolerance, especially for the topics that are repeated ad nauseam. If I had to deal with one more collision model sucks, or HO's suck, or eny sucks, or gameplay sucks, or arena caps suck thread... well my advice would eventually be, "don't go away mad, just go away."
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Then you can move on to the others that need killin!
exactly :aok
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I think it is a perfect representation of the elite so-called furball crowd....I didn't ho, horde, noe, ram or pick him...but I am a poor pilot..... :confused:
No the truth is that unless they can kill you on their terms then there is something wrong with you. Again i am amused that this the film being shown....I am sure there are much worse films of me out there...I can only hope there are better ones of him...
And don't lump BKs and AoM together....the BKs are a truer furballing squad then AoM has ever been...Stang, Jaxxo Hubs et al are part of what once made this community more interesting for ACM.
Well you just admitted to picking him when he was fighting a P38.
"furballer's terms"...it's pretty simple, Fight. Don't try to rope and pick 6 times in a row before running for the hills. Now I know what you are thinking..."I am going to fly to my plane's strength". Well if you are continuously flying b&zing planes you are choosing to fight like that, don't blame the plane for your passiveness and lack of skill. (and I doubt you are skill less, Just saying in general)
You keep clumping together the terms 'furballing' and 'acm' as if they are the same thing which they aren't. Furballing is a style of flying just like B&Z. You don't have to be a great stick who has mastered acm to furball although it does help obviously. ACM is not Furballing. ACM is controlling your plane and knowing how to defend yourself. Similar to real life and martial arts. You can learn the arts and become able to defend yourself if someone tries to punk you in a bar, or you can have your cronies just jump him from behind and hit the guy across the head with a beer bottle and then kick him while he's on the ground. That's what the horde is, a bunch of frat boys jumping people, beating them to a pulp, and then doin keg stands and lookin up girl's skirts. Party on dude!
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You can't judge a pilot by one sortie.
Lord knows he (Falconwing) and I have had our fair share of run ins and disputes in the past.
And the Lord also knows he and I have vastly different opinions on many things pertaining to AcesHigh.
But I also know the guy to be honorable and he is a fairly decent stick.
I for one have drug my fair share of target fixated pilots through ack over the years and I am also pretty sure every poster in this thread has done the same.
The film has two sides actually. One CAN view it as Falcn. running to ack and refusing to fight, and one can also view it as Scotch making several poor decisions and dying because of them.
Sure I would rather have seen Falc. duke it out with Scotch. I think that would have been a decent fight actually. Scotch is a good 109 stick and I am sure Falcn. knows how to handle a Tempest. But the reality of it is Falcn. probably was getting low on gas and ammo and there is nothing wrong with his wanting to land.
If I choose to follow an enemy back their base, fly around in their ack and surrounding myself with nme's, I really can't blame my opponent because I made that choice and died dumb because of it.
I won't judge either Scotch's or Falcn's. flying by this one film. (you can't really) I have fought both fair and square in the LW's and both pilots know how to fight. I have had film over the years of most all the "elite" sticks running to ack, ho'n, and/or just plain flying like dweebs in general. Just as I have had film of them showing amazing skill and doing some pretty incredible stuff with their planes.
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<snip>
Good post
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Some of the complaining in here reminds me of a gal I dated years ago. She didn't like my car, my clothes, my furniture, my hair, my friends, my apartment...
You dated my ex-wife? :huh
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Don't try to rope and pick 6 times in a row before running for the hills.
The rope-a-dope is now frowned upon, too? :lol That's like playing poker without the check-raise.
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You dated my ex-wife? :huh
Well at least I didn't marry her! ;)
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Some of the stuff going on in this thread is an exact example of what is part of making the game environment go down hill. You know who you are. Grow up.
Animl <walks away shaking head>
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But Scotch, you sure missed a great shot on that p51. Fedj was practically stalled in front of you. Too much target fixation there.
It wasn't fixation. I knew where everyone was at that point. Where I should have put in right rudder to keep my nose steady on his path, I shot a burst while crossing to get back down on falconweenie. The 30mm rounds went to either side of the 51 because of that drop. It would've been a good kill though but that flight was really just about getting falconweenie out of the sky since he wouldn't fight (well, I guess he tried with Nitefox, Canucka, and Keystone...sorta). :aok :rofl
My point in that? He liked to cast stones about how others fly, buzzing a furball etc, when that's exactly what he's doing. The difference between him and Kappa or Fester. Even if they were in jets they would've turned around and fought me. Not run away looking for another pick, multiple wingmen, and field ack. They took the time to learn how to fight outside of the horde and how to use both advantage and disadvantage. :pray
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Well at least I didn't marry her! ;)
Ouch!! :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Been playing AH since Jan 2002...
Myself from February 2002, but I respectfully disagree with you.
Starting the JB's we thought we were noble warriors of the skies, and flew with a "code". It was all well and good, I left because of some personal reasons, and got sick of the LW only rule we had.
From there I moved on to lone wolf flying until I was invited into the Muppets. I don't fly as often as I did for numerous reasons, but one of them is gameplay. I am no great stick but I have learned a lot about AH being in the Muppets. There really is a difference in mentality, and sense of gameplay.
I wholeheartedly agree with Scotch that mass misshuns and giant squads are killing AH. There used to be a time when fighting, be it land, sea, and air all happened at once, a good balance, and the fight for a base could last hours (think A45 area on Baltic). Even on the big maps back in the single MA there were fights like that.
Over the past few years it has progressively gone downhill, and I fear it is picking up speed. The statements of new players not wanting to learn really seems true to me.
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Wow, and to think this all started when scotch accused POTW as being horders and base takers. Hey im all for the dogfight, i say we fix it to where you cant take bases any more to promote dogfighting just like Combat Flight Simulator did.... oh wait that game doesnt exist anymore. Simply because there was only one thing you could do and that was dogfight. Doing the same thing over and over gets boring after a while which i think makes this game thrive. For those of you that dislike the gameplay of others and quit, then there will only be someone to take your place. Because there are so many things different things to do. I dont care for the people that talk crap on 200 like they have the little man syndrome. That irritates me to no end but it wont stop me from playing. Just enjoy the things you do. thats what is important ,after all it is only a game. :salute
While eddieK needs a flippin WALL-O-TEXT (sorry, didn't bother to actually read it), rip summs it up pretty well. :aok
ROX
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Neither of you are addressing the actual issue that was presented. Base taking by itself is fine. It's the horde mission that's now used to take said base.
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....the BKs are a truer furballing squad then AoM has ever been.
:rofl
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Mark! where have you been? I needed you a week or two ago
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The rope-a-dope is now frowned upon, too? :lol That's like playing poker without the check-raise.
No, that's perfectly fine but if it doesn't work the first 3 times, the pilot should probably try something else... but most the time that's the only weapon in his ars3nal hence is in the B&zer to begin with. There's nothin more annoying and dweeby than a pony diving 10k to shoot me, dodge, repeat, dodge, repeat, dodge, repeat, dodge, fire, maybe clip his wing as he flies by, "zomg i dont have enough E to continue this charade" and he runs away. Ya know what I mean?
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No, that's perfectly fine but if it doesn't work the first 3 times, the pilot should probably try something else... but most the time that's the only weapon in his tomatonal hence is in the B&zer to begin with. There's nothin more annoying and dweeby than a pony diving 10k to shoot me, dodge, repeat, dodge, repeat, dodge, repeat, dodge, fire, maybe clip his wing as he flies by, "zomg i dont have enough E to continue this charade" and he runs away. Ya know what I mean?
I know exactly what ya mean. Had it happen to me last night...And i clipped his wing with my .50s and he ran away
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We had some good fights last night. :aok
Or was that Banshee5?
What's the deal?
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that was probably my imposter Banshee5...dont recall fighting you
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No offense NB but according to your stats..when you play the game you don't GV, Buff or capture. How can you call somebody else myopic when you only play one aspect (fiter)??? If thats not a "its my $15 and I'll do what i want attitude" im not sure what is...
Animal's post in the other thread is still the best one I have read...if there really is a large group of vets who want furballing...form and train appropriate squads and have at it.
I have never seen a buff pilot insult a furballer because they havent learned all the tricks behind buffing...but furballers sure seem comfortable suggesting that anyone who hasn't entered a "ACM training" Dojo are newbs who "just dont get it"....
...and just how far back did you look? Been there...done that...not sure, but I think I even finished ranked in the top 25 a couple of times (my to my embarrassment :D). SRI bud, I started doing this stuff almost 20 years ago. I was a trainer in AW for about 5 years and head trainer for about 4 of them. Yah, I had to teach people to play ALL aspects of that game.
I quit caring about "score" in early 1991 (bailed on a squaddie to protect my score...said never again). I cared about score when I started here, simply because knowing how the scoring system works makes it easier to predict what people are likely to do in a given situation. So, if you bother to look back at the first 6 to 8 months I played, I did it all. There is a reason why I don't GV much now a days. Unfortunately, the new graphics with AH2 create problems for me due to color blindness. As for bombing, I find it to have all of the excitement of concrete set. I don't "rag" people that only bomb or GV. I DO "rag" those that only bomb or GV in an effort to "win the war" while avoiding combat as much as possible.
Come to think of it...why on earth should I bomb? Bombing is only slightly less difficult than driving a school bus (imagine tryin' to lay those eggs with 50 screamin' kids in the back of the bus!!). :D
Seriously, there are very few "bomber pilots" in AH that I respect. They are the guys that not only advertise their intentions....they dare you to come get them. They understand what makes the game work........COMBAT. That is what no one on the capture monkey side of this seems to be willing to examine. The game is designed to create situations where combat will occur. Back in da Olden Days, NOE's were entertaining...in large, because they were relatively rare. Since the demise of the "Rooks Outnumber Everyone" days, NOE's seem to be the method of choice. There in, they defeat the purpose of the game....COMBAT.
Personally, "The Race to Reset" tripe is the worst thing about AH. Since I was here prior to the demise of AW....I can say, with all honesty, it wasn't this way until AW's door closed.
BTW Falc...it isn't my intention to insult anyone either.........unless they deserve it. :) :salute
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Neither of you are addressing the actual issue that was presented. Base taking by itself is fine. It's the horde mission that's now used to take said base.
Scotch---you know we love ya :salute, so please take this in the kind spirit in which it is presented:
A) How long does it take to take a base with 4 or 8 or even 12 to 18 guys milling around a medium base, there's no centralized organization mind you, before 20 guys show up to oppose you...how long does it take to take that base? If they are lucky, it might take 4 to 6 hours.
B) How long does it take to take a base with those same 12-18 guys who are extremely organized, each person knowing exactly what to do and being able to quote it back to you with a second's notice--who all hit the base at the same time...how long does it take them to take that base? Between 4 and 6 minutes if they did it right, and many still get to land kills.
I think the problem you are talking about is in the last few months, a couple of sides have taken to launching 50 to 60 guys to take a base in one operation---3 or 4 full red darbars decending on a base. When they need that many, there's an operational/training problem. If you can't take a base within 10 minutes with 18 guys, it's time to hang it up and go play Slingo. I never had that many people---ever.
About 10 months ago, I had 24 guys once to take a zone base..never have had that many after that. The average was mostly about 18 per mission.
I don't know what to tell you about the 50-60 man raids. When a side has 50 to 100 extra guys advantage, I guess all the left-over guys get bored.
There seems to be absolutely no effort whatsoever to stop the gross numbers imbalances. Good luck with that.
Scotch, If there are those who call you a "furballer" for how you want to play...tell 'em of bug off---it's YOUR $15 bucks.
ROX
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You got to know when to HO'em, know when to rope'em,
Know when to pick away and when to run.
You don't count your perks sittin' on the runway,
There'll be time enough for countin' sitting in a ack gun.
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You got to know when to HO'em, know when to rope'em,
Know when to pick away and when to run.
You don't count your perks sittin' on the runway,
There'll be time enough for countin' sitting in a ack gun.
:lol nice :aok
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You got to know when to HO'em, know when to rope'em,
Know when to pick away and when to run.
You don't count your perks sittin' on the runway,
There'll be time enough for countin' sitting in a ack gun.
LMAO
Sig material. :aok
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Alright, I watched the film. Fwiw, to the right the Tempest out-turns the 109K, both in rate and radius. It's funny that the entire premise of how he flew was a belief in the opposite. :lol
No, that's perfectly fine but if it doesn't work the first 3 times, the pilot should probably try something else... but most the time that's the only weapon in his ars3nal hence is in the B&zer to begin with. There's nothin more annoying and dweeby than a pony diving 10k to shoot me, dodge, repeat, dodge, repeat, dodge, repeat, dodge, fire, maybe clip his wing as he flies by, "zomg i dont have enough E to continue this charade" and he runs away. Ya know what I mean?
Oh, of course, that is annoying... but it doesn't exactly sound like a true rope-a-dope. In other words, you're not falling for it. :aok
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Oh, of course, that is annoying... but it doesn't exactly sound like a true rope-a-dope. In other words, you're not falling for it. :aok
Exactly. If a plane comes in above me with more E, I fully expect him to try to rope me, maybe even twice, but when that doesn't work, the jig is up. That's why in my OP that you commented on I said multiple rope attempts (like 6) or B&z passes are dweeby. The extent of the dweebness increases exponentially with the number of B&Z passes at the same plane. :aok
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TOMATONAL
the language filter has gone to far
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Well at least I didn't marry her! ;)
I did say ex. ;)
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Well I have said my piece and it is likely time for this thread to die...
Thanks to WmLute and others who said kind words :salute
I'll continue having fun and somehow manage too find this game highly entertaining along with 900+ folks each night...hope all other posters here can find a way as well :P
I still think Animl had it right in his long post in "why they are leaving". Unless YOU are willing to lead by your actions...then you have noone to blame but yourself. The very fact that people get so worked up over 5 of 150 bases being taken by NOEs on a given night suggests some intrinsic value to a base. Imagine if you just ignored them and acted like it wasn't such a good OR bad thing...maybe people would lose interest... Imagine if you created fiter squads that didn't pick or alt/e fight but instead mixed it up in low alt furballs...were courteous on ch 200...didn't insult other styles of play on the BBS...maybe those alternatives would seem more attractive... :salute
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Scotch---you know we love ya :salute, so please take this in the kind spirit in which it is presented:
Despite previous words. :salute :salute
I think the problem you are talking about is in the last few months, a couple of sides have taken to launching 50 to 60 guys to take a base in one operation---3 or 4 full red darbars decending on a base. When they need that many, there's an operational/training problem. If you can't take a base within 10 minutes with 18 guys, it's time to hang it up and go play Slingo.
Exactly what we're talking about! :aok
Overwhelmingly excessive force and the damages it causes. Whether it be in base taking or dog piling on some poor SAPP in a 38.
There seems to be absolutely no effort whatsoever to stop the gross numbers imbalances. Good luck with that.
One step at a time?
Hopefully something comes to light from this. It's obviously a problem that most people can agree on.
Scotch, If there are those who call you a "furballer" for how you want to play...tell 'em of bug off---it's YOUR $15 bucks.
:t :t :t they can call me whatever they want. i just kill them. :devil
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Well I have said my piece and it is likely time for this thread to die...
Thanks to WmLute and others who said kind words :salute
I'll continue having fun and somehow manage too find this game highly entertaining along with 900+ folks each night...hope all other posters here can find a way as well :P
I still think Animl had it right in his long post in "why they are leaving". Unless YOU are willing to lead by your actions...then you have noone to blame but yourself. The very fact that people get so worked up over 5 of 150 bases being taken by NOEs on a given night suggests some intrinsic value to a base. Imagine if you just ignored them and acted like it wasn't such a good OR bad thing...maybe people would lose interest... Imagine if you created fiter squads that didn't pick or alt/e fight but instead mixed it up in low alt furballs...were courteous on ch 200...didn't insult other styles of play on the BBS...maybe those alternatives would seem more attractive... :salute
You truley stick to your convictions which should be highly respected :aok
Its not about 5 out of 150 bases that get taken NOE style the point these guys are trying to make. Sure it can be fun flying with 20 other folks..but today its 5 out of 150..next week its 10 and so on and so on...
Its like a bad infection that wont heal itself unless someone can bring the light on these people that this game can be fun in so many other ways besides being in a cloud of green guys.
Its a big reason the squad decided to adopt another chess peice because in our other one...it was just too much with 30-40 going to one spot on the map every 5 minutes. You will find alot more people will follow suit once they see the light. :salute
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The reason we Bish get no resistance from Rooks when we do NOE raids is that they are all at 20k+ alt.
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I don't really know what all the drama is about. All I know is that half the time I don't even make it to the field......stupid trees. Most of our BoP missions aren't NoE grabs, but bombing or fighter sweeps. The only NoE's that come to mind as of late only had perhaps 8 folks total. A few lancs for town and a few fighters for clean-up and goon protection. I love the furball like pretty much every one of my squaddies, but I don't get so wrapped around the axle about it that "it's the only way the game should be played" (I think pretty much the entire squad would agree with me).
So until we are either forced to play 1 way or someone pays my bill, I will continue to enjoy the wide variety of gameplay which is offered here.
I will agree that at a certain point a huge assed NoE is bad, but palcing a number on it isn't the answer, It all depends on several different factors on how big is too big. Kinda like when your out drinkin with your buds..go ugly/big early.
I am by no means a furball or acm expert, I learn stuff every flight win or lose. I just know that I truly enjoy flying with all the BoPs, and on sq night (Mondays7-9 PM Eastern) we have a blast. Folks should join us on either Monday Sq night or gay Fridays...it's truly a blast, mostly B.S.'n and jokin or smack talking to each other. We don't take ourselves as seriously as some here and I think thats the difference. You have to be able to take a step back and look at the big picture that this is a fairly large multi player game and there a several different types of folks who are gonna play it there own way.
so to quote Rodney King..." Can't we all just get along"
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so to quote Rodney King..." Can't we all just get along"
To paraphrase the LAPD......
(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-violent014.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org)
havaniceday... :D
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I think we are getting along!
Two in-game forces have explained their positions, made their point, and came to a reasonable understanding.
You have to :salute Falconwing and :salute Scotch for staying on topic and doing it without any parties getting PNG'ed. :aok
When you have folks being honest in their positions---things like that CAN happen. Hat's off to both! :salute
ROX
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Boy, two of my fav's posted, <S> Falc and Widewing!! Read all of page 1 and pooped out.
Fellowship, friendship, and passing the time are reason AH still lures me.
The "point" of the game that existed when I started is gone. That was when AW folded. Whenever that was.
It is a very different game now because when the aim of playing changed, the game changed. It can be said when the game changed the aim of playing changed too. Both are so.
Wildly successful, but different.
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In regards to Scotch's post. Pigs do not look for undefended property to take! 9 times out of 10 the Pigs look for strategic points to gain a foothold on a area to either defend or to facilitate the ongoing advancement for Knight's domination of the map. By some chance you are not there to defend it all I got to say is too bad. I find it typical of a Muppet to cry! I mean really that's all I really see on channel 200 is a Muppet crying excluding Agent360 and Steve who I have a high regard for. But for the rest I find you to be nothing more than 13 your old cheetos eating fat kids that cry when something doesn't go there way! Oh pour baby!!! I mean really Scotch post something more meaningful or something more constructive other than the typical Muppet 200 channel crying that we all see!!!!
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Read the thread. Understand what it's about.
Post something meaningful of your own. You contributed nothing.
:cry :cry :cry
I refer you to page 11.
btw: You're wrong on all accounts. :devil
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Only thing the pigs do good is pat each others backs on country channel when they land their two kill sorties. Wish skuzzy would put an end to it or make the squelch list bigger. Its pathetic, annoying, and the main reason why I don't like going nit.
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I fly with the pigs but thoroughly enjoy when the Muppets are on our side OR whoopin my arse. All of them have been quite kind to me.....teaching me cool stuff if I ask, and they always check6 in fights :) I respect their collective abilities and the pursuit of a nasty endless furbie.
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Is that kosher?
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But for the rest I find you to be nothing more than 13 your old cheetos eating fat kids that cry when something doesn't go there way!
Wow. This sounds like something a 13 year old cheetos eating fat kid would say.
The interwebs make them so brave in their anonymity to spout off.
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No resistance= perfect mission
Oh, and lame as hell :aok
Exactly. Those are the worst man.
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Scotch,
Been a while since fester let me play with you guys........ :)
If HiTech would make RADAR indestructable except by hitting the HQ and show all cons from sea level to the stratosphere, it would reign in some of this bad game play. I bet the Muppets would be like ferrets in a gerbil farm........... :t
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new thread
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The planes will darken the sun
Good we shall wirble in the shade :rock
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Time to lock this thread? :furious :noid
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Wonder what Titanic Tuesday would be like if DAR could only go down by killing the HQ and everyone can see every green and red dot on the whole map from sea level up? You might get many more small fights all over the place instead of the hiding in hoards. Human nature would reason if everyone can see all dots on the map everywhere, a fight with a single dot is safer than with a hoard of dots after the anonymity NOE and squad hoards have given players. This might even change the nature of missions to sending boxes of high alt bombers with escorts to carpet a field first, then GV and JABBO to clean up and capture after.
Updating DAR so everyone can see all dots everywhere at all times would probably impact game play with stutters. But maybe it wouldn't..... If I were a newbie and most of the time only saw the red dar bar in a sector rather then all the dots and their locations, I'd stick with flying with the hoard so I would have a chance to land and see my name with kills next to it.
Scotch get HiTech to change the carrot and the newbies will change with it.
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(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e286/jdcombs/TANKS.gif)
Autotakeoff enabled? Have you no dignity?