Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: uptown on January 07, 2010, 08:04:38 AM
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I've been playing since AH1, flying the P51D most of that time. And I can do fairly well in the mains....most nites :lol I can even go to furball lake in the DA and bag my limit. But in a 1 on 1 co-alt merge, i just don't know how to pull out a win.
I've flown with and against alot of great squads and have improved greatly...atleast i thought. But i got to thinking that squads were making me sloppy in my flying as I could always depend on a squaddie to get my butt out of trouble. So i quit the squad thing and my SA is alot better now.
In a 1 on 1 with dueling rules i can never figure out what I doing wrong. It's always the same thing. I run out of E and the opponent keeps climbing until he drops on my six. I need advice on what I'm doing wrong.
IMO the MA had taught me alot of bad habits and I'm wanting to break those if possible and become a good 1vs1 fighter.
Is there anyone here that as overcome this kind of problem. If so how?
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I am always overly nervous about staying within the rules in the DA dueling situation. So much so in fact, I have had my squaddies say "why did you not take that front quarter shot? You had me..." Honestly, because I do not know what is considered a HO and therefore bad form in the dueling situation. To nice maybe?
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Best if you can get someone who is well versed in acm's, SA, throttle work, angles... and duel them hours upon hours in the DA..... doing good in a 1 vs 1 is much to do about reactionary flying, knowing how to recognize angles, knowing throttle mngmnt and e mngmnt, and being soft on the stick(flying smoothly). Just find someone who is really good at dueling, and duel them as much as possible, when they beat you, try it a little different, be aggressive in going for shots and moves and keep tweaking your approach until you can beat them once, then build from there.
<S>
Mark
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from your post, it sounds like you are going all in, on the 1st or 2nd merge........you also might be behind the curve ( reacting late to what you see your opponent doing, giving him E and angles advantage )
SkyRock has suggested a good approach at getting better and ridding your bad habits.......
one thing to remember, the better you become, you will eventually get to a point where it would be like the following example:
SkyRock vs TC = SkyRock wins 5 to 0 this day
SkyRock vs TC = TC wins 5 to 0 the next day
if you get my meaning....... hope this helps ~S~
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What the SkyBrick said. It comes down to experience. The more you fight the better you will become at calculating angles, speeds, reacting to the other guys movements etc. It is really not that complicated. You look at the other guy and if you can estimate his speed and can estimate where he will be after a few seconds, all you have to do is have your plane pointing there at the right time. Going to the DA for an hour with someone will equal days of MA experience, so you can build experience fast. Other than that, there is no secret to teach. Some basics maybe to save you time but nothing you could not figure out by yourself.
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The first thing i would do is save all of your films. It makes it 10x easier to see what your doing wrong by switching over to your opponents plane. If energy is your problem i would suggest using a dedicated energy merge such as the double Immelman. The Trainers site has good info on the diff merges. http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/acm-merge/acm-merge.htm The merge is the base of the fight. I'd say that 70% of the time the fight is decided on the merge. Hit me up anytime you see me on and i would be glad to go to the TA and show you a few things.
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Glad to see the desire for proper improvement.
May I suggest some reading:
Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering -Robert Shaw
As Suns stated, you will find many people willing to work with you in the DA. Just ask.
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The bottom line is pretty simple. An engagement in the MA is most often different then a "duel". Rarely are planes actually co-alt/co-e and often not the same type or load out. "Dueling" is a pretty specialized undertaking and as already mentioned requires a lot of practice to excel in. We have a tremendous group of trainers and a large collection of excellent sticks who excel in that type of combat. I'd recommend spending some time in the TA with any trainer interested in giving you an overview and initial evaluation as a starting point. The 1st thing is to get a feel for what issues exist and what to work on. Then focus on finding guys to work with in the DA. Don't worry about winning, just focus on having fun and trying stuff. Be patient, don't get frustrated and you'll see a huge improvement in a fairly short time frame. I'm far from an uber dueler but certainly happy to spend some time with you in the TA any weekend if your interested...
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The first thing i would do is save all of your films. It makes it 10x easier to see what your doing wrong by switching over to your opponents plane. If energy is your problem i would suggest using a dedicated energy merge such as the double Immelman. The Trainers site has good info on the diff merges. http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/acm-merge/acm-merge.htm The merge is the base of the fight. I'd say that 70% of the time the fight is decided on the merge. Hit me up anytime you see me on and i would be glad to go to the TA and show you a few things.
This is going to go bad fast lol. I clicked on the link.
"Now let's take a look at some things in general we would like to try to do during a merge:
Avoid the opponents guns:
A well placed head on shot can quickly end the fight. However, a missed head on attempt by your opponent can be used against them. If you are maneuvering into your post merge turn while your opponent is trying to line up a shot, you've just gained an angles advantage by starting your turn before them.
Not true. This assumes that the guy going for the HO is clueless. Given equal skills, the guy going for the HO has the advantage. He is forcing you to turn and he can see where you are turning too. He will get position advantage and get a chance to put some BBs in you. I have some films from testing this with BigHorn somewhere. Not sure I can find them but we can always try it.
Enter the merge point with your lift vector pointed toward your next turn: (comments)
The sooner you have your lift vector oriented for your next turn, the sooner you can start your turn. However, this is trumped by 1. Your opponents position may force you to avoid their guns before you can orient your lift vector.
Look above. You are telling your opponent that you are about to turn right or left. He can use that information against you.
Try to get your opponent to pass through your lift vector at the merge:
This allows you to turn into them, rather than around to them. This also can allow you to start turning before the merge point. This is trumped by 1. and 2. It's not worth attempting if it will commit your lift vector into a turn that you don't want to make, or if you're exposing yourself to guns in the process."
Not sure how you could force me to do that. Once I see you trying to turn before me, I hit the breaks and let you turn right in front of me for a nice 6 shot. Half the fights I win are because the bad guy turned too early and just gave me their 6.
Improvise! Don;t fly following a script. Going for the standard imel at the merge is just death. Think bout it. If two guys follow the script and go for an imel at the merge, they will end up head on right after it. Who is going to win the HO?
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The thing that amazes me about duels is how important an equal load-out can be. I don't duel often, but the last time I did with sunbatt (lots of fun) we weren't very strict with reupping after one of us was shot down. Being just ~100 lbs lighter made for a decisive advantage because we were roughly on par in flying skill (both flying the same aircraft).
In the main arena, you rarely have an idea about what your opponent's fuel and load-out status might be. However, I am far more inclined to look for a 1vs1 fight in the arena when my fuel state is optimal, i.e. not too much and not too little. Be careful about engaging in a knock-down fight if your aircraft is not at an optimal weight.
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All very good info and suggestions.
It all boils down to "quality" stick time.
While I'm not a top stick I'd be glad to assist you in the DA. IF you see me on and want to work together, just pm me. We can do any plane you want to work on or any combination of planes. It should give you some film to rifle through in any case. <S>
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Improvise! Don;t fly following a script. Going for the standard imel at the merge is just death. Think bout it. If two guys follow the script and go for an imel at the merge, they will end up head on right after it. Who is going to win the HO?
Dedalos, you lost me on this "Script" thing..... where has anyone suggested flying a scripted fight on this thread or even on that ACM-Merge link from the Trainers website?
I agree one should not take different maneuvers and fly 1 or 2 trick pony shows...... or even fly maneuvers they have learned in a "scripted" fashion.......
about flying with optimal fuel/ammo weight? I would always instruct my students to practice/Train with 75% or 50% fuel loads..... so they would have that extra edge of knowledge when and if they had to mix it up like right after taking off....
~S~
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Couple of things ive found over the years. When I started I only flew the 190d and the Typh. Bnz'd only didnt know howto turn fight. Don't know how many times I went to the Da only to get shot down the first or second merge. No fight no learning. A few guys are willing to help. This is the problem. Most of the ones that are willing to help dont have a clue on how to verbalize a 3D picture of what to do to get better, it is lots of overgeneralizations. Like read a book on ACM.
Ive been to the TA twice only to get I fly by the seat of my pants I dont know what you are talking about I cant explain it. That was from trainers.
Srry I havent taken the time to try all the trainers. I know from some of his posts Murdr and Badboy can explain properly.
Sometimes I have a problem understanding what they are telling me. So it helps to become an Autodidact.
So you have to teach yourself. USE the film viewer it is your friend don't just watch the film once watch it 20 times from both cons views as well as the outside view. The most important reason for teaching yourself is no fight is static. YOU have to have the ability to TEACH yourself or at least recongnize what is going on on the "fly". The trainer wont be there for you other fights.
This is what I found a way to conserve just a couple percent more E. just a couple percent better flap control and so on. Even 1% better in five areas can mean at least 5% inprovement and most of the time with the better sitcks that is all it takes to make a fight out of it.
What Strokes told me helped me the most of anyone who tried to help me on the DA merge. I see exacly what you are doing here is how to fix it. The next fight was completly different. For me it was Start making your turns for Energy before you need to. I was simple turning to late. By seconds is all. Start to picture the fight in 3D in your head and project where the fight is going. Turn into where the fight will be. Not where it is.
Im not talking about lead merge.
So here are a few of the big ones in the DA
The rules cheat you sometimes. Hey co merge on the deck until icon range. The guy merges under you every time out climbs you and dominates the fight from there. Then they say oh you have to fight to merge under the other guy. Later on review of the film you find them climb out on the way to the fight only to dive down before icon range to the deck getting tons of E. Where you have been flyin deck level to the fight the whole time.
NOt everyone does this the point is it cheats you of learning.
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Another important factor is hardware.
If you've got a killer rig and you're going up against someone that doesn't you've got a good advantage too.
Your computer, the connection, your stick setup (HOTAS lots o' buttons), track IR, rudder pedals, etc... all that stuff makes a huge difference too.
Everything that makes it easier for you to control the game that your opponent doesn't have will help.
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Another important factor is hardware.
If you've got a killer rig and you're going up against someone that doesn't you've got a good advantage too.
Your computer, the connection, your stick setup (HOTAS lots o' buttons), track IR, rudder pedals, etc... all that stuff makes a huge difference too.
Everything that makes it easier for you to control the game that your opponent doesn't have will help.
I never thought about this angle. So all pilots are not equal in skills, and potentially never could be due to the hardware they have a available or utilize.
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Dedalos, you lost me on this "Script" thing..... where has anyone suggested flying a scripted fight on this thread or even on that ACM-Merge link from the Trainers website?
I agree one should not take different maneuvers and fly 1 or 2 trick pony shows...... or even fly maneuvers they have learned in a "scripted" fashion.......
about flying with optimal fuel/ammo weight? I would always instruct my students to practice/Train with 75% or 50% fuel loads..... so they would have that extra edge of knowledge when and if they had to mix it up like right after taking off....
~S~
Ahhh, I did not meant it that way. A script would be anything that you are planing to do before you see what the other guy is doing. For example, coming into a merge and going for an imel no matter what the other guy is doing. Thats what I mean by script. Making up your mind before a you see what the bad guy is doing. That is why it is very hard to tell anyone how to merge or fight. It depends on what the bad guy is doing, what plane he is in, etc. In a DA it is simpler since you only have to worry about what he is doing but in the MA it is more complicated. I wont merge the same way against a zero and a p51. It depends on my fuel load, my alt, my speed, what I think their speed is, are they lead turning, going for the HO etc. So, and this is for the people asking how, it is very hard (if not impossible) to tell you how to merge or what you are doing wrong sunless you define all the variables.
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The thing that amazes me about duels is how important an equal load-out can be. I don't duel often, but the last time I did with sunbatt (lots of fun) we weren't very strict with reupping after one of us was shot down. Being just ~100 lbs lighter made for a decisive advantage because we were roughly on par in flying skill (both flying the same aircraft).
In the main arena, you rarely have an idea about what your opponent's fuel and load-out status might be. However, I am far more inclined to look for a 1vs1 fight in the arena when my fuel state is optimal, i.e. not too much and not too little. Be careful about engaging in a knock-down fight if your aircraft is not at an optimal weight.
Honestly, I think you are wrong about how close your skills were. 100lbs will not make any difference
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Honestly, I think you are wrong about how close your skills were. 100lbs will not make any difference
I agree. It's better to stay up so you can get more fights in. As long as the other guy has equal E it's a fair fight. I lose just as many fights 100 lbs lighter than i do heaver.
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Quite a bad habit I was doing, was always lead turning and being inpatient for the shot to come, I now Lag turn alot more and the guns solution comes.
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From my little bit of experience...the difference between MA and DA dueling/fighting is the kill factor...in the DA you and your opponent are there to increase skill, have a bit of fun without interference, the list goes on....in the MA the majority of the fights and fighters are looking to kill hard and fast to get as many scalps as possible before too many other cons arrive or to get name in lights....on occasion (for me and the time I can fly it is quite a lot) you will come across somebody..or perhaps a winging pair who are for the fight...sure we are all looking for the success of a fight but sometimes when you have a good fight win or lose it is always a win in the mind due to the shear quality of the fight. sorry I digress.....so in the MA you find people are pulling hard looking to get around,on top, advantage instantly. Also as has been said by waystin....the not knowing if a particular shot is too head on or not...DA rules ????
Somebody said here about hardware quality......I personally do not fully agree with this as if you are able to get a constant FR of atleast 30 you are at no greater advantage wether you use a mouse or the latest CH products...it more comes down to stick time (as has also been said) I can and do get my butt whipped by people who use a mouse and $20 sticks.
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Dueling is pretty silly, in my estimation.
Most fights did not begin at co-alt with "fair and even" speeds and conditions. Air combat (even 1-vs.-1) is not a joust, or an effeminate Elizabethan "affair of honor" with antique pistols and "seconds" standing by with the oak boxes they came in.
You started the fight based on any number of other mission variables. Sometimes you started with an advantage, sometimes not. You just played the hand you were dealt and survived by your skill and your SA and sometimes by your technological superiority.
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Now, that said, if you're going to duel, it is all about knowing your capabilities vs. the enemy's and exploiting it. If you find you just can't get angles or you're always being quickly out-manevered, my guess is you're pulling way too hard on the stick right after the merge and bleeding energy, while your opponent is tightly abiding by his corner speeds and getting more out of his E than you are. That, and he may simply have better-honed situational awareness skills than you.
Never underestimate the power of a simply keeping (or storing) energy against an aggressive dueling opponent who will try to solve the issue immediately. Just after the (guns off) merge, go into a straight ahead, but gradual pitchback maneuver and watch as best you can what your opponent is doing back there as you climb out. If he turns hard or dives, you should be getting an alt advantage that should win you the fight by itself. If he climbs along with you, then it truly becomes an energy duel. (of course, if you're dueling in dissimilar planes, and the enemy's plane climbs a LOT better than yours, the above isn't likely to work, since his climb advantage might nullify your pitchback even if he does waste some energy in turning)
Once you have a decent alt advantage and some horizontal separation, then turn back (gradually, not in one blackout-inducing 6-G turn :rolleyes: ) watching your enemy the whole time. Try to get him to go nose up to come after you. If he does that, you can go nose up, too, draining both of you of energy, and eventually, he's got to drop his nose before you do, and at that point you can drop down on him and either gun his brains out, or do a feint to get him to blow even more energy in break turns or barrel rolls.
If you don't have any climb advantage, and the pitchback won't help, you might try to simply dodge your opponent until he makes a critical mistake. Just loiter about and watch him, and dodge gun passes with break turns, dives or whatever you need to survive. The goal is to get him to commit to a gun pass where he dives well below you.... you pull up into this, dodge the pass, and you then have an alt advantage to turn the tables.
If opponent's very patient, or a veteran boom-and-zoomer, then you won't win with this strategy. Eventually, he'll force you to trade alt for speed needed to dodge his attacks... and he'll get you sooner or later... unless you can force that one mistake.
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Dueling is pretty silly, in my estimation.
Most fights did not begin at co-alt with "fair and even" speeds and conditions. Air combat (even 1-vs.-1) is not a joust, or an effeminate Elizabethan "affair of honor" with antique pistols and "seconds" standing by with the oak boxes they came in.
You started the fight based on any number of other mission variables. Sometimes you started with an advantage, sometimes not. You just played the hand you were dealt and survived by your skill and your SA and sometimes by your technological superiority.
This is a game, a competition. It pays to increase your skill level dogfighting. In the MAs no matter what you do, B&Z, run, pork, or JABO, at some time or another your going to be the one at a disadvantage. If your the one that prepared for that scenario then you will still have an some advantage. One that the other guy won't realize till probably too late.
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Another important factor is hardware.
If you've got a killer rig and you're going up against someone that doesn't you've got a good advantage too.
Your computer, the connection, your stick setup (HOTAS lots o' buttons), track IR, rudder pedals, etc... all that stuff makes a huge difference too.
Everything that makes it easier for you to control the game that your opponent doesn't have will help.
I have a slightly different take on this, the computer and controls are important, but it is significantly more important that you get the best out of the system you have.
1.) Do everything to maximize the performance of the system you have. As Hitech, Pyro, and Skuzzy said repeatedly at the CON, the game will perform best when the frame rate is the same as the screen refresh rate. Do what ever it takes to get that, i.e. low your screen resolution, lower the detail, turn the "fluf" off, kill background apps and processes. An interesting point was illustrated by a guy who had a "Killer Rig" and was getting 300 FPS in the game, Hitech said that's just as bad as a low frame rate. The point is this, if your system isn't in sync with the refresh rate of your monitor you are missing stuff.
2.) Familiarity with your gear is better than constantly getting new stuff. That's another benefit of going to the CON, trying other systems and seeing how people set up their gear. What's interesting about that is watching how a great "stick" in the game (who usually beats me) struggled trying to use a top of the line CH setup. He just wanted to go back to his old MS sidewinder with 3 buttons.
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This is going to go bad fast lol.
Well of course it's going to go bad fast. The primary factor being your utter lack of perspective. Bighorn? Really? What part of the following words do you not understand?
Basic ACM and Merge Tactics
"..things in general we would like to try to do during a merge"
Avoid the opponents guns
Wow, yea, that's a dumb general idea to consider.
Look above. You are telling your opponent that you are about to turn right or left. He can use that information against you.
Or you could actually thoroughly follow the material and you would have found the following:
"Enter the merge point with your lift vector pointed toward your next turn-"
"merge point being the key phrase. If you think about it, most pilots lose visual on each other just before the merge point. This can be due to position or G effects. What this means is that there is assumed to be a brief moment while passing through the merge point where your opponent can't see you. This gives you the opportunity to approach the merge with your lift vector pointed one way, and than adjust it to your initial turn while crossing the merge point out of sight of the opponent."
Murdr
"While this is good in terms of thinking in advance, setting up to win, etc. Its also a danger, in that a good opponant will take the clue and set you up.
As such you need to be aware of exactly when you start that move. And the dangers of 'telegraphing' a move, same as a fighter telegraphing a punch by dropping his shoulder. As a matter of fact I'll often go into a merge with wings banked left 'faking' a left oblique immelman, when I'm actually planning something quite different. As he loses sight I'll snap into where I'm really headed. If you time this right this can actually work in your favor, as he's looking over there (10:00 high) while I'm over here (2:00 high). At the very least I am not where he THOUGHT I was going to be.
Think slippery, plan in advance, but give nothing away that you don't have to. Be prepared to scrap everything at a moments notice if the last plan didn't work."
Ghosth
Do you understand that hundreds of people discover AH monthly with not even a basic concept of fighting and maneuvering in 3D? Do you understand that players who have not spent years or decades dueling need some sort of starting point of understanding what is happening when they jump in the main arenas and get endlessly slaughtered. Do you understand that when you put a wall of text up on a web page (no matter the quality of the information), the average person is going to bulk at reading it? Do you realize how many subscribers give up in the first three months because they are not armed with the basic knowledge to make the game enjoyable?
Open your eyes and ask yourself if that material in any way an attempt at teaching the savvy player how do duel, or is it more aimed at a general audience to point them in a general direction so they can start making progress in an average MA engagment rather than quit in frustration?
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I don't see how flying with a squad would make you develop bad SA habits unless you look at a squad purely for watching your 6 and not returning the favor. If anything flying with wingmen should help your SA habits since you not only have to look out for yourself but for atleast 1 other wingy.
As for ACM dueling religeously helps as well as taking the tnb types down on the deck below a furball. A pony actually could handle itself fairly well on the deck and is a good way of learning stall tactics and evasives.
But IMO in the grand scheme of things the most important of any of these is gunnery. You can have all the best ACM's in the world but they wouldnt mean a dam if you cant aim. Someone with good gunnery and bad ACM always has a "punchers" chance.
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Uptown I think dueling is about getting possistion to kill as quickly as possable, Dueling is "training" for MA, if you can learn to Merge and get a kill that first gun solution, without him having a gun solution.
hit me up if you see me online we can go to TA and just practice merging.
INK
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Uptown:
There is a thing called TMI :D
After reading some of the crap here, :O let's be practical. Get into the DA or TA with guys I'll PM you about that do a good job explaining things.
When you hear talk of angles, throttle, pitch, ect.... you can feel a little lost until you just do it. Forget of what you know and think you know and just let it flow and keep it simple.
After a little time, you will be versed in the dark arts of Dueling..... :devil Look for my PM.
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ACM?
I thought we were just seagulls...........
(http://www.solarnavigator.net/films_movies_actors/cartoons/cartoon_images/finding_nemo_seagulls_sydney_harbour.jpg)
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Well of course it's going to go bad fast. The primary factor being your utter lack of perspective. Bighorn? Really? What part of the following words do you not understand?Wow, yea, that's a dumb general idea to consider.
Or you could actually thoroughly follow the material and you would have found the following:
Do you understand that hundreds of people discover AH monthly with not even a basic concept of fighting and maneuvering in 3D? Do you understand that players who have not spent years or decades dueling need some sort of starting point of understanding what is happening when they jump in the main arenas and get endlessly slaughtered. Do you understand that when you put a wall of text up on a web page (no matter the quality of the information), the average person is going to bulk at reading it? Do you realize how many subscribers give up in the first three months because they are not armed with the basic knowledge to make the game enjoyable?
Open your eyes and ask yourself if that material in any way an attempt at teaching the savvy player how do duel, or is it more aimed at a general audience to point them in a general direction so they can start making progress in an average MA engagment rather than quit in frustration?
And here they come ladies and gentleman :lol Yes, Bighorn. Whats the question there? That is the only one that decided to try it with me. Did I misspell his name or something?
I agree with what you said about new players. So, lets arm them with something that will get them killed in one turn wondering what happened. I too was new and was armed with the "basic" ACM skills I read and guess what. I died so fast I did not know what hit me. Even worse, I could not figure why I died since I followed the fighting instructions. So yeah, lets arm them with something that will get them killed anyway. You have chosen to take this personally. I am honestly trying to help. If you don;t agree, thats fine, but I think a new guy following those directions will get even more frustrated since he will die anyway.
Now, open your eyes also and see that the link was posted as help to someone that is not new by any means. My response was in that context.
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Another important factor is hardware.
If you've got a killer rig and you're going up against someone that doesn't you've got a good advantage too.
Your computer, the connection, your stick setup (HOTAS lots o' buttons), track IR, rudder pedals, etc... all that stuff makes a huge difference too.
Everything that makes it easier for you to control the game that your opponent doesn't have will help.
I fly with a mouse and keyboard. For years I flew on dial up on a machine that could get ok FR but nothing spectacular and was overall considered a low end machine. I have never felt like I was at a disadvantage for this, and could outfly 90% of people I came across (DA or MA). Now I have a better machine running high res, high speed internet (still use mouse and keyboard) and can outfly most people out there (although I can tell I am not as good as I once was, mainly due to the fact that I don't play as much).
Your assumption is false
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This is a game, a competition. It pays to increase your skill level dogfighting. In the MAs no matter what you do, B&Z, run, pork, or JABO, at some time or another your going to be the one at a disadvantage. If your the one that prepared for that scenario then you will still have an some advantage. One that the other guy won't realize till probably too late.
Agreed, partially. I say dueling is stupid because, if you "build your skill" only under such artificial, stilted conditions, you won't learn to be flexible enough to deal with the other situations in the arenas or in events.
There are any number of expert duelists who win most of these 1-on-1s at "twenty paces" but are helpless in any situation BUT a co-alt merge where their favorite trick always works for them. They either whine about their "unfair" disadvantage (which they can never reverse because all their fights start "fair") or they whine that they were outnumbered, or say the guy(s) who shot him down only won because of their initial advantage. Well, duh. Maybe the other guys are smarter about setting themselves up with alt or position before they ever spotted you, and had the engagement in the bag from the get go. Or maybe the whiner is dumb enough to attack a pack of planes, rather than waiting for help, or for a situation that he has a good chance to win.
None of these scenarios involve a co-alt, headon merge with no firing HO on first pass. Neither did real life, for the most part. I did read an interesting story of two guys who actually had a duel, with "seconds", during the Spanish Civil War (with the haughty Luftwaffe pilot coming off second best and lucky to get out of there only "wounded" but with his arse still attached); but these were rare.
There's more to winning a fight sometimes than rudder and stick input. Situational awareness can win you a fight before there's a fight... AND can get you out of it when you'd otherwise get yourself killed. So, IMO, SA is 10x more important than a few pet dueling moves.
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what i see missing here, unless i missed it, is fighting your fight ...
at some point you will be the pilot with either more or less e once the difference is established the goals are clear for each ...
until one of you gains a solution on your opponent, the e- pilot playing defense should be forcing his opponent to use more energy achieving a solution than s/he is avoiding that solution, working for a reversal or surviving long enough to exploit a mistake by his opponent.
conversely the e+ pilot playing offense needs to maintain his energy advantage while working for his solution being patient enough to maintain his advantage while keeping pressure on his opponent hoping to force a mistake he can exploit for a swifter conclusion, never giving his opponent enough room to egress or an opportunity for a reversal.
as the e+ pilot you are in control and anything less than a kill should be considered a disappointment.
the e- player should consider survival and or a draw a victory and not over extend looking for the kill too soon, that is how one gets killed in the rope a dope.
there is advantage in either situation as the slower plane tends to be more maneuverable and the faster plane is at less risk.
turning the tables is a matter of playing it smart and being able to exploit a decisive moment in the encounter.
example:
the rope a dope can be used by the e- player to force the e+ player into a predictable dive and a gun solution for the e- player. you do this by following the climb, but not overly aggressively. i.e. climb behind your opponent maintaining the lag position advantage and do not fall below a good maneuver speed in your pursuit, at some point your opponent who is likely climbing very hard to entice you to follow in order to pounce when you stall will get very slow himself and the energy relationship will begin to swing in favor of the pursuer when the "e+" player gets slow enough he will either have to disengage or dive, the disengagement is a "victory" for the e- player and the dive will almost always be predictable and offer the e- player a range negating deflection shot since you "know" the path of the diving aircraft you can send the rounds out to meet the unfortunate victim.
knowing the above gets me lots of kills, and helps me avoid even more on either side of the dope ...
hope that all helped
+S+
t
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uptown from your post it sounds like you focus on surviving, meaning maintaining E and speed. This may not be exactly true but just what it sounds like to me. In my opinion if you want to improve, work on surviving at a disadvantage. Keep the P51 low and slow while in the MA. Don't focus on living (avoiding fights or running). If someone gets on your six, see if you can shake them.
My main advice as far as ACM is concerned is keep your eye on the enemy and react to them. By doing this I learned how to dogfight. Later I read articles and information about ACM and realized the moves I have been doing actually had names people talked about in AH.
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Now, open your eyes also and see that the link was posted as help to someone that is not new by any means. My response was in that context.
BS
And here they come ladies and gentleman Hehe!
So, lets arm them with something that will get them killed in one turn wondering what happened.
So yeah, lets arm them with something that will get them killed anyway
This tells me you are all about trolling and being disrespectfull and inflamatory.
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Yes, Bighorn. Whats the question there? That is the only one that decided to try it with me. Did I misspell his name or something?
If you can't see the lack of relevance between the word "basic" and an example beginning with "Bighorn and I (dedalos)" then it's not worth the trouble of explaining.
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BS
This tells me you are all about trolling and being disrespectfull and inflamatory.
I responded in the same manner you did. It is not a troll and you know it is not BS. Now pull yourself back together.
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Agreed, partially. I say dueling is stupid because, if you "build your skill" only under such artificial, stilted conditions, you won't learn to be flexible enough to deal with the other situations in the arenas or in events.
There are any number of expert duelists who win most of these 1-on-1s at "twenty paces" but are helpless in any situation BUT a co-alt merge where their favorite trick always works for them. They either whine about their "unfair" disadvantage (which they can never reverse because all their fights start "fair") or they whine that they were outnumbered, or say the guy(s) who shot him down only won because of their initial advantage. Well, duh. Maybe the other guys are smarter about setting themselves up with alt or position before they ever spotted you, and had the engagement in the bag from the get go. Or maybe the whiner is dumb enough to attack a pack of planes, rather than waiting for help, or for a situation that he has a good chance to win.
None of these scenarios involve a co-alt, headon merge with no firing HO on first pass. Neither did real life, for the most part. I did read an interesting story of two guys who actually had a duel, with "seconds", during the Spanish Civil War (with the haughty Luftwaffe pilot coming off second best and lucky to get out of there only "wounded" but with his arse still attached); but these were rare.
There's more to winning a fight sometimes than rudder and stick input. Situational awareness can win you a fight before there's a fight... AND can get you out of it when you'd otherwise get yourself killed. So, IMO, SA is 10x more important than a few pet dueling moves.
You should go duel grizz or SR, they will show you about 25 different ways to pop a cap in dat A-ess ess :aok :rofl :bolt:
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There are any number of expert duelists who win most of these 1-on-1s at "twenty paces" but are helpless in any situation BUT a co-alt merge where their favorite trick always works for them.
Any examples?
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You should go duel grizz or SR, they will show you about 25 different ways to pop a cap in dat A-ess ess :aok :rofl :bolt:
i learned that the hard way :lol
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I have 3 squadies who spend time in the DA with the muppets and other accomplished deulists. JunkyII, Krupinski and Ardy123. I can't beat any of the three 1 vs. 1, and in the MA they hold thier own. I swear Junky in a Ta152 now makes me think I'm watching Grizz. I can tell you from experience that when my squad joins them once in a while in the DA for an evening of dueling fun, the overall skill level for the squad improves because of it in the MA. In the MA when I chat with players who have engaged a trainer for personal ACM lessons they say it made them better at ACM overnight and the game became significantly more enjoyable.
If it's winning only in a P51 and no other issue, see if steve will work with you. Other wise you have Trainers and Master duelists in this post doing everything but blatently yelling "PICK ME, PICK ME... :x...". You have more offers to turn you into a baby seal killer than groupies at a Pink Floyd concert waiting for ACID. :rock
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It is not a troll and you know it is not BS.
Again, just to review your first words...
This is going to go bad fast lol.
And from that to
Now pull yourself back together.
it's crystal clear you have every intention of flamebaiting.
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Agreed, partially. I say dueling is stupid because, if you "build your skill" only under such artificial, stilted conditions, you won't learn to be flexible enough to deal with the other situations in the arenas or in events.
There are any number of expert duelists who win most of these 1-on-1s at "twenty paces" but are helpless in any situation BUT a co-alt merge where their favorite trick always works for them. They either whine about their "unfair" disadvantage (which they can never reverse because all their fights start "fair") or they whine that they were outnumbered, or say the guy(s) who shot him down only won because of their initial advantage. Well, duh. Maybe the other guys are smarter about setting themselves up with alt or position before they ever spotted you, and had the engagement in the bag from the get go. Or maybe the whiner is dumb enough to attack a pack of planes, rather than waiting for help, or for a situation that he has a good chance to win.
None of these scenarios involve a co-alt, headon merge with no firing HO on first pass. Neither did real life, for the most part. I did read an interesting story of two guys who actually had a duel, with "seconds", during the Spanish Civil War (with the haughty Luftwaffe pilot coming off second best and lucky to get out of there only "wounded" but with his arse still attached); but these were rare.
There's more to winning a fight sometimes than rudder and stick input. Situational awareness can win you a fight before there's a fight... AND can get you out of it when you'd otherwise get yourself killed. So, IMO, SA is 10x more important than a few pet dueling moves.
This is a profoundly misguided statement.
While I can think of more then a few folks who while skilled are quick to run there mouths and many who think they are "uber" but aren't I can not for the life of me think of a single top notch dueler who isn't capable in a furball or MA engagement. No question that "dueling" has a somewhat artificial aspect since its designed to ensure a level playing field. However, nothing that makes someone a good dueler detracts from any ability to fly well in the MA. For every person in the "MA" who can competently fly a 1 on 1 fight there are 10 who just look to engage from advantage exclusively.
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My feelings are hurt :(
Dude, really, get off my ankle. You are the only one flaming and bating here. I bet you already called HT about this but were told that I did not cross the line yet. You have something to offer to the original posters question or not? This thread was not about you
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Dude, really, get off my ankle. You are the only one flaming and bating here. I bet you already called HT about this but were told that I did not cross the line yet. You have something to offer to the original posters question or not? This thread was not about you
I am under no requirement to quietly put up with your @*&%. So you can either, not reply anymore, stop being an ultra melon with me, or post a civil reply. Don't matter to me.
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From my perspective there is only one skill that you can't really learn in a 1v1 dual and that is, multiple contact SA.
As the OP stated, there are multiple skills that are not required to be "successful" in the MA's.
So if a new person were to come to Aces High, the likelihood of them becoming a "skilled player" is dramatically better if they dual 1v1 (even with an average dualist) then just flying in the MA's.
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I see some in here aren't quite getting it... if you decide your going to duel any and all of the better sticks in the game, and see all the "tricks"... and learn them.... then the word trick ceases to be applicable... because now they are moves that you have seen and have learned counters for.... the variables, both offensive and defensive are endless... so the more variables you see and learn, the more prepared you are for split second decisions and the more successful you become in all situations...
I'll give you an example.... I fight multiples alot... me against 2 or more of them... in the MA of course(I mean where else can you so easily find 6 red guys all wanting to fight one fella at the same time..hee hee) I am limited by the number I can keep track of, but 3 or 4 at a time and and the last one flying isn't uncommon... alright, nuff blowhard crap, lol. But because I have dueled so many 1 v 1's in the DA, I can see each each enemy pilots options within the intial SA sweep of the situation... up to tracking 3 or 4 at a time and having either counters for their offensive possibilities maped out according to their alt and e states, or deciding that a blend of counters would leave me a shot on at least one, while staying in that window at just the right time as to prevent any real good gun solution on me. This varies with types of birds your up against, gun packages, and all the other variables that you may encounter... Sometimes I even feel I have the upper hand... hee hee.
At any rate, the point is... dueling is an extremely valuable tool if you really want to push the limits in a situation that gives you the opportunity to break down and study as many variables as possible from one threat, then, in the MA...you apply this knowledge when the situation arises. The ability to see one threat and have the knowledge to already have mapped out the disposal of him quickly, allows you to move on to other threats that attempt to prevent the completion of your objective. The experience gives you the knowledge, the knowledge gives you the confidence, the confidence gives you the ability, and the ability allows you to be successful. No matter if your objective is to get through a cap to destroy the VH while heavy, clear a cap for base suppression, or just furball like a fool! :aok
PS Also it gives you a chance to dish out some ownage! :devil
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I'll give you an example.... I fight multiples alot... me against 2 or more of them... in the MA of course(I mean where else can you so easily find 6 red guys all wanting to fight one fella at the same time..hee hee) I am limited by the number I can keep track of, but 3 or 4 at a time and and the last one flying isn't uncommon... alright, nuff blowhard crap, lol. But because I have dueled so many 1 v 1's in the DA, I can see each each enemy pilots options within the intial SA sweep of the situation... up to tracking 3 or 4 at a time and having either counters for their offensive possibilities maped out according to their alt and e states, or deciding that a blend of counters would leave me a shot on at least one, while staying in that window at just the right time as to prevent any real good gun solution on me. This varies with types of birds your up against, gun packages, and all the other variables that you may encounter... Sometimes I even feel I have the upper hand... hee hee.
Hey Sky is right on Ill have to call him Bobby Fisher. Its like chess the more moves (options ) you can see at a time and (IN time)the better you will be.
I know that you will start to see, ( maybe halucinate is a better workd ) the fight in your head.
Im always up for a duel and help where i can. < not the best but i like to help.
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I did read an interesting story of two guys who actually had a duel, with "seconds", during the Spanish Civil War (with the haughty Luftwaffe pilot coming off second best and lucky to get out of there only "wounded" but with his arse still attached);
Not to drag this thread too far off topic, but I have never heard of this before and would be interested to learn more of the story.
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Yes learning how to duel helps in the MA.
(but throw in KOTH and it REALLY helps)
No hardware isn't really much of a factor.
(I flew w/ a horrible rig for many years)
Yes you will reach a point where it is "any given sunday".
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Agreed, partially. I say dueling is stupid because, if you "build your skill" only under such artificial, stilted conditions, you won't learn to be flexible enough to deal with the other situations in the arenas or in events.
There are any number of expert duelists who win most of these 1-on-1s at "twenty paces" but are helpless in any situation BUT a co-alt merge where their favorite trick always works for them. They either whine about their "unfair" disadvantage (which they can never reverse because all their fights start "fair") or they whine that they were outnumbered, or say the guy(s) who shot him down only won because of their initial advantage. Well, duh. Maybe the other guys are smarter about setting themselves up with alt or position before they ever spotted you, and had the engagement in the bag from the get go. Or maybe the whiner is dumb enough to attack a pack of planes, rather than waiting for help, or for a situation that he has a good chance to win.
None of these scenarios involve a co-alt, headon merge with no firing HO on first pass. Neither did real life, for the most part. I did read an interesting story of two guys who actually had a duel, with "seconds", during the Spanish Civil War (with the haughty Luftwaffe pilot coming off second best and lucky to get out of there only "wounded" but with his arse still attached); but these were rare.
There's more to winning a fight sometimes than rudder and stick input. Situational awareness can win you a fight before there's a fight... AND can get you out of it when you'd otherwise get yourself killed. So, IMO, SA is 10x more important than a few pet dueling moves.
Who says all duels are even up. I like to use them to improve. I'm not against being OTD and you at 10k. Great practice and fun duel.
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WoW! alot to read :lol There's no doubt in my mind dueling can make one better in the MA. That's the whole point of this for me. To be able to win at a disadvantage.
I'll look forward to seeing you duelers around. But I have to watch Bama own Texas tonite :cheers:
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Not to drag this thread too far off topic, but I have never heard of this before and would be interested to learn more of the story.
I found this here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=133097
****************************************************************
The book I mentioned above has arrived. The alleged dogfight between Bruno Mussolini and American pilot Derek Dickinson never happened. Dickinson, who was around 40 years old, flew reconaissance, not pursuit planes. He also worked in aviation mechanics. Along with a few others, Dickinson peddled some remarkable stories to "action" magazines.
Page 110 of "Airmen Without Portfolio," by John Carver Edwards states, "Once back home, Dickinson recounted to a Herald Tribune reporter his account of an air duel with Bruno Mussolini, the Duce's youngest son. The contest reportedly took place on Septermber 28, 1937. Dickinson claimed that both he and Mussolini flew monoplanes (I-16 and a Fiat G 50) and that each pilot had two observation planes in tow as witnesses. The Spanish subsecretary of Air, Augustin Sanz Sainz, honored Dickinson by serving as one of his observers. The early phases of the dogfight resulted in a draw, claimed the American, until he circled behind the Italian and opened fire; whereupon Mussolini signaled his surrender. Dickinson told reporters that he ended the battle and returned to base. Perhaps the most bizarre tale to emerge from the Spanish Civil War, Dickinson sold the account to For Men magazine and later condensed for Reader's Digest."
Mr Edwards continued, "In addition to contemporary statements by Tinker, Baumler, and other volunteer pilots concerning Dickinson's penchant for exaggeration, aviation historians have since branded his chronicle as rubbish. First, Bruno Mussolini arrived in Spain in late September 1937 as a bomber pilot. He subsequently participated in twenty-seven sorties in a Savoia-Marchetti SM 79 and returned to Italy in March 1938, reportedly because the Republican Air Ministry had put a bounty on his head. Second, his alleged fighter, the Fiat G 50, was the sole Italian monoplane to appear in Spain, and did not debut until January 1939. At the time of the so-called duel, there were only two prototypes in existence. Third, Dickinson's primary witness, Sanz Sainz, who commanded the airfield at Alcala de Henares, had perished in a bombing raid six months prior to the Dickinson-Mussolini aerial engagement (March 23, 1937)."
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When ever I go to the DA and can't find someone to duel with I generally go to the lake. I don't climb out because I believe learning to fight from a disadvantage will help me the most the quickest, especially for fighting in the MA for obvious reasons. I'm not very good at multi-tasking so I'll head out to a lonely quadrant of the lake and wait for them to come. Sometimes only one guy shows up. You'll get your butt handed to you a lot at first but you will get better. Like someone else said... try reading Fighter Combat Tactics and Maneuvering by Robert L. Shaw. Its a little dry and like a text book but worth the effort. Just read a little at a time and it will help. Pay special attention to chapters 3, 4 and 5. I don't play as much nowadays (I get bored with gangbang type gameplay most of the time now) but look me up sometime.... I love to duel.
<S>
A8Grind
I just wanted to add that you don't have to go to the DA to find a good fight. I've been around long enough to know who a lot of the "good sticks" are. Just P.M. them they will tell you where they can be found. If you're worried about your score then that probably isn't a good idea but from my experience I have found that there are quite a few players whos scores are very misleading. Learn to fight the best and maybe one day be one of them. The main thing though is just to have fun, there is only so much time in day.
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Great read guy's ..Big help ..Now to find Robert Shaw book on Fighter Combat : Tactics and Maneuvering ..
Are there and more good book's on Tactic's ?
:salute
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Great read guy's ..Big help ..Now to find Robert Shaw book on Fighter Combat : Tactics and Maneuvering ..
Are there and more good book's on Tactic's ?
:salute
Every Man a Tiger: Mock-Combat Flying Techniques for Light Aircraft. O'BRIEN, Frank J. And Timothy R. V. Foster
ack-ack
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Great ! Thanks Ack-Ack
:salute
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Dueling people makes a huge difference in your skills in the MA unless you consider vulching and 1v5+ skills for kills.
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Skyrock pretty much summed it up nicely. Reactionary...knowing where to put your nose according to the position/angle/speed of the enemy.
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..Now to find Robert Shaw book on Fighter Combat : Tactics and Maneuvering ..
A quick jog over to Amazon.com should do it, no?
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I learned a TON dueling sunsfan and grizz over and over again in the DA and had a fun time dying trying.
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The more you fly and the more you push it the better you get.
It's really easy to lose the edge fast when you don't get the stick time in. When I've had the time to fly I feel like I can give the good sticks a run for their money. When I don't have time and only get a little bit of time to fly, I can sure feel it and fly worse then normal. I make no claims to being a good stick, but flying time sure helps.
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A quick jog over to Amazon.com should do it, no?
That's where I bought it.
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someone gets it... :aok
I see some in here aren't quite getting it... if you decide your going to duel any and all of the better sticks in the game, and see all the "tricks"... and learn them.... then the word trick ceases to be applicable... because now they are moves that you have seen and have learned counters for.... the variables, both offensive and defensive are endless... so the more variables you see and learn, the more prepared you are for split second decisions and the more successful you become in all situations...
...
At any rate, the point is... dueling is an extremely valuable tool if you really want to push the limits in a situation that gives you the opportunity to break down and study as many variables as possible from one threat, then, in the MA...you apply this knowledge when the situation arises. The ability to see one threat and have the knowledge to already have mapped out the disposal of him quickly, allows you to move on to other threats that attempt to prevent the completion of your objective. The experience gives you the knowledge, the knowledge gives you the confidence, the confidence gives you the ability, and the ability allows you to be successful. No matter if your objective is to get through a cap to destroy the VH while heavy, clear a cap for base suppression, or just furball like a fool! :aok
PS Also it gives you a chance to dish out some ownage! :devil
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But you get the same benefit from flying in the arena or an event, and trying to survive each encounter.
What I don't understand is how this completely artificial co-alt guns-free merge to start helps you at all when so few fights start that way in any other situation. :headscratch:
Sure, fighting a "good stick" one on one does give you an opportunity to learn... but then, so does fighting anyone in other situations, especially when you don't know if the guy's good or an easy mark... but you can't take the chance that the guy's an easy kill, can you? Also, how often do you find yourself in a one on one vs. a one vs. several or several vs. several? Duel tactics just lose all value when you've also got to keep track of two other enemy, and you have wingmen you can rely on. It's a completely different situation, as well as far more likely than the pure duel situation.
I think fighting the situation you're dealt is always better than a staged duel.
If you need to learn specific concepts, a staged situation might be better...
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Total BS stigler. 1v1 will help you against multiples if you know how to work the angles. One of the main things 1 v1 is knowing how to do a reversal. If you can master them against 2-3 guys its easy to force an overshoot to get the kill. Energy management is a critical part of both types of fighting. There is a reason fighter pilots train 1 v 1 even today, because it's the most demanding and simple type of combat there is, either you die or I do.
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Stiglr the fault with your line of reasoning is this;
A non/low skilled pilot in the main arena encounters another plane (probably a different model then what he's flying) with an unknown load-out, and they get into a fight. 20 seconds later he's in the tower, most likely a bit frustrated that he lost that quickly, so he chalks it up to a couple of easy things that he see's like,
A.) I was in the wrong plane
B.) I didn't have enough altitude
C.) I didn't have enough speed
D.) I didn't have cannon's
So he ups again and goes on his way to find the next fight, good or bad. This is a slow, frustrating way to learn and as the OP stated can lead to some habits that are hard to break.
Now think about this situation,
You and I agree to dual the same plane, same load-out for fuel and guns, at a set altitude for the merge. If you win that's great we both have a good fight (maybe I learn something :) ), if I win, you can now remove a bunch of variables from what you just experienced in order to learn something new about how to fight. By having the same "everything", the dual comes down to a matter of pilot skill, therefore it is a better approach to learning.
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In a duel you can setup the same situation over and over to devise a method of turning a bad situation in your favor. You don't necessarily have to setup same plane, same alt, same loadout. With duels you can go so much farther and repeat till you have the situation in hand. Then go test it out in the MAs.
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I've been playing since AH1, flying the P51D most of that time. And I can do fairly well in the mains....most nites :lol I can even go to furball lake in the DA and bag my limit. But in a 1 on 1 co-alt merge, i just don't know how to pull out a win.
this would be more of a problem if you were 1v1 with another p51d. i think the majority of the late war plane set will wipe the floor with the p51d, in a duel. if you really want to duke it out 1v1 in a pony and come out on top you really have to pick the fights where you have the performance advantages.
To be able to win at a disadvantage.
gaining an advantage is simple is you have plenty of sky beneath you to work with, but if you're low then you definitely need a good climbing/accelerating and turning plane which the pony is not.
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this would be more of a problem if you were 1v1 with another p51d. i think the majority of the late war plane set will wipe the floor with the p51d, in a duel. if you really want to duke it out 1v1 in a pony and come out on top you really have to pick the fights where you have the performance advantages.
gaining an advantage is simple is you have plenty of sky beneath you to work with, but if you're low then you definitely need a good climbing/accelerating and turning plane which the pony is not.
So, what does he do if he wants to do these things in a pony?
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Great read guy's ..Big help ..Now to find Robert Shaw book on Fighter Combat : Tactics and Maneuvering ..
Are there and more good book's on Tactic's ?
:salute
i prefer Boyd's "Aerial Attack Study." it is more to the point imo ...
http://www.lulu.com/content/6166593
but when suggesting things to learn i tend to start pilots at the beginning and refer them to Ozzy ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dicta_Boelcke
your easiest path to success is flying smart ...
"check six" is directed to virtual combat and is also worth a look as well imo ...
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=18638
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Uptown the number one problem I see in your 1v1 has always been trying to turn as hard as you can from the first moment instead of letting the plane work for you but you arent the only one that does that... :D
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What I don't understand is how this completely artificial co-alt guns-free merge to start helps you at all when so few fights start that way in any other situation. :headscratch:
Find me in the DA, I'll let you shoot at me any chance you get and I will only take 'clean' shots. I assure you it will not make a difference because I have learned (from dueling, go figure!) how to maneuver my plane away from HOs and baiting my enemy into taking a low percentage shot at me. Don't miss otherwise you're in serious trouble. :)
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There's more to winning a fight sometimes than rudder and stick input. Situational awareness can win you a fight before there's a fight... AND can get you out of it when you'd otherwise get yourself killed. So, IMO, SA is 10x more important than a few pet dueling moves.
I actually agree with you here that, in a multiplane engagement in the MA, SA becomes increasingly more important and ACM becomes less. You can be a relatively lethal MA killer with no ACM skills at all, just flying a fast plane around picking anyone engaged and running if you see any high cons as they come into icon range. Running from 1v1s too. You could probably average 2-3 kills a run doing this. Weak and timid albeit, relatively effective. OR--- you could become a very proficient 1v1 artist, understanding all sorts of different concepts involving close range combat. Take that knowledge and combine it with the SA that you talk about, you are all of a sudden averaging 4-5 kills a mission because you are taking more 'risks' because you have more ability, thus more confidence. You'll even, all of a sudden, be excited to fight the 1v1s instead of running from them because you realize it's an easy kill. Think about how many kills you are passing up on because you don't have the ability to get the job done. Anytime you run from an enemy and pat yourself on the back for surviving, think about the fact that had you the skills learned in the DA, you would have been able to kill said enemy.
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this would be more of a problem if you were 1v1 with another p51d. i think the majority of the late war plane set will wipe the floor with the p51d, in a duel. if you really want to duke it out 1v1 in a pony and come out on top you really have to pick the fights where you have the performance advantages.
gaining an advantage is simple is you have plenty of sky beneath you to work with, but if you're low then you definitely need a good climbing/accelerating and turning plane which the pony is not.
That's the bad habits I'm trying to break. The 51s are very capable on the deck...if you can create angles and show them your skinny side. I get more kills quicker coming in at 8k and below. Staying high only to dive on zekes and P40s does not make me a better flyer. Sure might kill Del or Lute like that, but wouldn't it be more rewarding getting a kill in a white knuckel knife fight?
Dueling i believe will teach me how to create angles to make them miss or for me to get some hits. I don't have much respect for the pony guy that stays at 15k avoiding the fight. I rather be in the fight earning my kills.
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Uptown the number one problem I see in your 1v1 has always been trying to turn as hard as you can from the first moment instead of letting the plane work for you but you aren't the only one that does that... :D
:rofl I've sent your Tempest running home on several occasions. Someone comes in higher then you and you're running home in a flash. Don't talk to me about ACMs. You're a opportunitist only concerned with K/D, score and survival. You sir are a Pacerr in a bishop uniform.
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What I don't understand is how this completely artificial co-alt guns-free merge to start helps you at all when so few fights start that way in any other situation. :headscratch:
Its like saying, "I don;t understand how shooting 3 pointers for an hour every day could help my shooting? I mean, I am never this wide open in a real game!"
Does this explain it a little better?
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It honestly comes down to a matter of lots of practice/experience and your inherent "talents" - with a minor nod towards equipment/setup. Skyrock pretty much nailed how it will pay off in a broader MA-type environment.
Remember, it's okay to FAIL - the cyber chicks down at the virtual bar couldn't possibly think any less of you. :banana:
*If* my gunnery were even a tad better, I'd have been almost as awesome as Levi (except I wouldn't have been surrounded by a mini-horde saving my bacon. :airplane: :joystick: :joystick: :joystick: :joystick: :joystick: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :neener:)
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What I don't understand is how this completely artificial co-alt guns-free merge to start helps you at all when so few fights start that way in any other situation. :headscratch:
If you're in the fight and not on a perch, pretty much all fights start out this way. Dueling teaches merges. Merges dictate fights. Dictate the fight and you win. Atleast that's the way I see it. :)
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In then end you only really have two choices. Only attack from a position of advantage or learn to manufacture an advantage from an equal or inferior position. "Dueling" helps develop both of those skills.
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In then end you only really have two choices. Only attack from a position of advantage or learn to manufacture an advantage from an equal or inferior position. "Dueling" helps develop both of those skills.
:aok
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In then end you only really have two choices. Only attack from a position of advantage or learn to manufacture an advantage from an equal or inferior position. "Dueling" helps develop both of those skills.
This.
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i prefer Boyd's "Aerial Attack Study." it is more to the point imo ...
http://www.lulu.com/content/6166593
but when suggesting things to learn i tend to start pilots at the beginning and refer them to Ozzy ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dicta_Boelcke
your easiest path to success is flying smart ...
"check six" is directed to virtual combat and is also worth a look as well imo ...
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=18638
Hey thx thorsim :salute
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In then end you only really have two choices. Only attack from a position of advantage or learn to manufacture an advantage from an equal or inferior position. "Dueling" helps develop both of those skills.
:aok
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Its like saying, "I don;t understand how shooting 3 pointers for an hour every day could help my shooting? I mean, I am never this wide open in a real game!"
Does this explain it a little better?
Yeah it does... but the point you're missing is, practicing 3-pointers with nobody guarding you (non-game conditions) isn't the same as doing it with the real game on the line. Yeah, it *helps* to get the reps for shooting techniques but 'the real situation' is always something else.
Dueling is so artificial that even the initial ANGLES (HO, passing close on the cold merge) are staged and unrealistic. Since your real life isn't on the line in a flight sim, well, you learn from fighting (and sometimes dying) in various situations during missions.
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Yeah it does... but the point you're missing is, practicing 3-pointers with nobody guarding you (non-game conditions) isn't the same as doing it with the real game on the line. Yeah, it *helps* to get the reps for shooting techniques but 'the real situation' is always something else.
Dueling is so artificial that even the initial ANGLES (HO, passing close on the cold merge) are staged and unrealistic. Since your real life isn't on the line in a flight sim, well, you learn from fighting (and sometimes dying) in various situations during missions.
In the MAs you might have a particular situation once a week..... might take a year of failing to find one possible solution to counter. In Dueling you can setup that situation over and over and perfect your moves to fruition in a few of hours.
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Yeah it does... but the point you're missing is, practicing 3-pointers with nobody guarding you (non-game conditions) isn't the same as doing it with the real game on the line. Yeah, it *helps* to get the reps for shooting techniques but 'the real situation' is always something else.
Dueling is so artificial that even the initial ANGLES (HO, passing close on the cold merge) are staged and unrealistic. Since your real life isn't on the line in a flight sim, well, you learn from fighting (and sometimes dying) in various situations during missions.
There no law that says a Duel *has* to be done a certain way. There's a standardized set of rules that are generally accepted and "expected" in the absence of any stated or desired deviations.
I've often done mismatched duels in any combination of planes or engagement parameters.
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*If* my gunnery were even a tad better, I'd have been almost as awesome as Levi
Careful, if you blow too hard on that horn you're tooting, you might get a hernia. :P
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Yeah it does... but the point you're missing is, practicing 3-pointers with nobody guarding you (non-game conditions) isn't the same as doing it with the real game on the line. Yeah, it *helps* to get the reps for shooting techniques but 'the real situation' is always something else.
That is why you do both. Practice first, then play the game. In your opinion who is going to do better? The guy that did an hour of 3s and and hour of game play or the guy that does 2 hours of game play? He may not even get the ball once in those two hours lol
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Basketball isn't a good comparison to the MA. They are pretty rigid about even-numbered teams in basketball. MA-style basketball would consist mostly of seven playing against one guy, with no refs and constant flagrant fouls.
Yeah it does... but the point you're missing is, practicing 3-pointers with nobody guarding you (non-game conditions) isn't the same as doing it with the real game on the line. Yeah, it *helps* to get the reps for shooting techniques but 'the real situation' is always something else.
Dueling is so artificial that even the initial ANGLES (HO, passing close on the cold merge) are staged and unrealistic. Since your real life isn't on the line in a flight sim, well, you learn from fighting (and sometimes dying) in various situations during missions.
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Basketball isn't a good comparison to the MA. They are pretty rigid about even-numbered teams in basketball. MA-style basketball would consist mostly of seven playing against one guy, with no refs and constant flagrant fouls.
Ever play outside? lol. You just described 21. In any case, I am trying to explain how practice could make you better. Not comparing the two. But hey, you do what you think is best for you and i ll do the same for me
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frsId3goYYE
:D
Seriously though uptown, I had the exact same issues a couple of months ago. My breakthrough was in finding someone I respected and I knew could explain things in a way I would understand. That person for me was Snaphook and I cannot thank him enough for it. It only took him about 15min to understand what I was missing and explain it in a way I completely comprehended, by the end of an hour it was already starting to come together for me. Now, win or lose, I at least have the knowedge and confidence I can put up a good fight...it's a good feeling.
It also doesn't matter what setup you use, as long as your comfortable with it.
<S> and good luck uptown
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frsId3goYYE
:D
Seriously though uptown, I had the exact same issues a couple of months ago. My breakthrough was in finding someone I respected and I knew could explain things in a way I would understand. That person for me was Snaphook and I cannot thank him enough for it. It only took him about 15min to understand what I was missing and explain it in a way I completely comprehended, by the end of an hour it was already starting to come together for me. Now, win or lose, I at least have the knowedge and confidence I can put up a good fight...it's a good feeling.
It also doesn't matter what setup you use, as long as your comfortable with it.
<S> and good luck uptown
Snap AKA Humble has a way with the words. :D
Your first big step was the decision to get inside a fight and get your hands dirty. Once you do that your already way ahead of many folks. From there you can improve fairly quickly.
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Snap AKA Humble has a way with the words. :D
Your first big step was the decision to get inside a fight and get your hands dirty. Once you do that your already way ahead of many folks. From there you can improve fairly quickly.
Your absolutely right Shuffler, on both accounts!
It was our fights in the DA that sparked my interest in dueling Shuffler, I remembered that and it drove me to improve and to duel alot more.
Thanks bud <S>
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Ever play outside? lol. You just described 21. In any case, I am trying to explain how practice could make you better. Not comparing the two. But hey, you do what you think is best for you and i ll do the same for me
LOL Ded, that was a joke on MA "skillz", not me disagreeing with you.
Main ace-skill in the MA is "situational awareness"...which is code for being "aware" when the "situation" gives the opposition any chance at all, and avoiding it.
EDIT: Sarcasm on.
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Main ace-skill in the MA is "situational awareness"...which is code for being "aware" when the "situation" gives the opposition any chance at all, and avoiding it.
turn it around and you'll be closer to the true "ace" path young tardawan.... :old:
being "aware" when the "situation" gives *you* any chance at all, and taking it. :joystick:
what you described is commonly referred to as... "running." :bolt:
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glad to have helped Twizzty :airplane: :salute
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Remember, it's okay to FAIL - the cyber chicks down at the virtual bar couldn't possibly think any less of you. :banana:
*If* my gunnery were even a tad better, I'd have been almost as awesome as Levi (except I wouldn't have been surrounded by a mini-horde saving my bacon. :airplane: :joystick: :joystick: :joystick: :joystick: :joystick: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :neener:)
:rofl
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Yeah it does... but the point you're missing is, practicing 3-pointers with nobody guarding you (non-game conditions) isn't the same as doing it with the real game on the line. Yeah, it *helps* to get the reps for shooting techniques but 'the real situation' is always something else.
Dueling is so artificial that even the initial ANGLES (HO, passing close on the cold merge) are staged and unrealistic. Since your real life isn't on the line in a flight sim, well, you learn from fighting (and sometimes dying) in various situations during missions.
I think youre missing it. While the start/setup of a 1v1 contest in the DA is "staged," that fact has zero bearing on the remainder of the engagement. It serves only to remove "starting advantages."
Removing those "starting advantages" one would find in the MA, the pile-it is forced to manufacture an advantage, as Snaphook stated. Its the manufacturing of that advantage that has value and is not only directly portable to the MA, but, dare I say, essential to survival if you intend to play the game in a non-hordish manner.
Anyone can drop from a 5K altitude advantage and flame a bad guy who doesnt even see it coming.
Someone who has a sound understanding of how to manufacture advantages starts to pretend that he doesnt see it coming so as not to spook the soon-to-be-de-perched. ;)
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All true, but the fact of the REAL event was, pilots with their real life tulips on the line tended to insist on having those advantages as often as they could. They didn't always go diving into a furball willy-nilly all full of testosterone (not many, anyway). If they knew they had a good chance to come out alive, then they'd go. Now of course, there were exceptions to this in every air force... but these tended to either get killed, or to be good enough to become legends. Thousands upon thousands of other pilots flew more like "mere mortals"...
It is very hard to "model" fear of death in a sim... but I try to put survival as job #1, a bit ahead of "fulfilling the mission". Gamers are only interested in "blowing sh*t up" so they play by different rules, not thinking twice about a HO when prudence might suggest they work for a better shot before hosing away... and the list goes on.
Anyway, I don't mean to say dueling doesn't help at all... just that its utility is limited some by it's stilted nature.
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just that its utility is limited some by it's stilted nature.
Take it from somebody who flies the MA to survive and has also logged thousands of duels practicing ACM. You are wrong.
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All true, but the fact of the REAL event was, pilots with their real life tulips on the line tended to insist on having those advantages as often as they could. They didn't always go diving into a furball willy-nilly all full of testosterone (not many, anyway). If they knew they had a good chance to come out alive, then they'd go. Now of course, there were exceptions to this in every air force... but these tended to either get killed, or to be good enough to become legends. Thousands upon thousands of other pilots flew more like "mere mortals"...
It is very hard to "model" fear of death in a sim... but I try to put survival as job #1, a bit ahead of "fulfilling the mission". Gamers are only interested in "blowing sh*t up" so they play by different rules, not thinking twice about a HO when prudence might suggest they work for a better shot before hosing away... and the list goes on.
Anyway, I don't mean to say dueling doesn't help at all... just that its utility is limited some by it's stilted nature.
Your assuming the two are mutually exclusive and they are not. I've got no problem per se with folks "flying to live" and I have a tremendous amount of respect for guys like Greebo, Griz, Blukitty and a host of others who can consistency land kills while still actively engaging (often at a disadvantage) relatively all comers. I also have similar regard for the top duelers. Like most of us I don't fall in either catagory but I can hold my own with most folks I run into 1 on 1 and as a general rule can "host" an observer and fly a multi-kill sortie in most plane types. As a general rule I never fly above 10-12k on these hops, normally engage in at least a bit of "furballing" and normally are outnumbered/defensive at some point. I don't film them all but here are s few...
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/109clip.ahf (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/109clip.ahf)
This is a smaller part of a 109 flight.
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/MAhop.ahf (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/MAhop.ahf)
This is a hog clip
I've got others but I don't think they play in the current version. The point here is that you don't have to fly timidly or at great altitude or in a horde (of your guys) or in an "uber" or perk ride to be reasonably successful in the MA. This is a simulation and in my mind a game of skill....but a game in the end. Balancing flying to live with flying to fight is an overlooked part of the equation in my mind.
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Thankyou Bruv for the time you took to work with me yesterday. It took a minute for the british accent to sink in, "me speakin' redneck and all" :lol But after that you explained some things quite well sir. I got 2 or 3 fantastic fights later in MA. :salute
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The point here is that you don't have to fly timidly or at great altitude or in a horde (of your guys) or in an "uber" or perk ride to be reasonably successful in the MA.
Alt is a crutch that some of the top score players take advantage of. Honestly most of them are terrible if you get them into a knife fight
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some of the top score players are terrible if you get them into a knife fight
names please? :aok
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names please? :aok
That might violate a rule but ill pm you 1 :devil
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That might violate a rule but ill pm you 1 :devil
really? ooops, dint meen to be brakin no laws ner nothin! :devil
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Alt is a crutch that some of the top score players take advantage of. Honestly most of them are terrible if you get them into a knife fight
Alt is not a crutch, it's a historic and time tested ADVANTAGE, just like speed, and just like good SA.
I'd argue that "hair on fire" furballing is pretty much game gaming, as the pilots who rely on that wouldn't do the same if their real lives were on the line. On the opposite side of that coin, a nice unseen bounce or a calculated B&Z from altitude is a "risk" most of us would take if we were literally risking our real ONE life.
And by the way, although I crave the "easy" unseen kill (not always easy when there are icons), and prefer a one- or two-pass boom and zoom kill to a 5-minute turn til you puke scrap... I'm far from helpless in a knife-fight. Just last week, I killed an Oscar "knifefighting" while in a damaged SBD Dauntless, and there was a Ki-45 Toryu helping out the Ki driver. There I had no choice but to mix it up, as I surely wasn't able to run for it.
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Situational Awareness and teamwork are very important skills. On the other hand, being able to scrap 1vs1 is just as important. How anyone can doubt that dueling won't improve your results in FSO or a scenario is beyond me.
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Alt is not a crutch, it's a historic and time tested ADVANTAGE, just like speed, and just like good SA.
I'd argue that "hair on fire" furballing is pretty much game gaming, as the pilots who rely on that wouldn't do the same if their real lives were on the line. On the opposite side of that coin, a nice unseen bounce or a calculated B&Z from altitude is a "risk" most of us would take if we were literally risking our real ONE life.
And by the way, although I crave the "easy" unseen kill (not always easy when there are icons), and prefer a one- or two-pass boom and zoom kill to a 5-minute turn til you puke scrap... I'm far from helpless in a knife-fight. Just last week, I killed an Oscar "knifefighting" while in a damaged SBD Dauntless, and there was a Ki-45 Toryu helping out the Ki driver. There I had no choice but to mix it up, as I surely wasn't able to run for it.
We have the Ki-45?
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We have the Ki-45?
Better question: there were more than two people playing Targetware online at the same time?
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Alt is a crutch that some of the top score players take advantage of. Honestly most of them are terrible if you get them into a knife fight
Hmm. Funny, I've seen you up around 10 or 12k, just as high as most folks fly. If you are so great in a "knife fight" certainly you have no problem overcoming someone with an alt advantage.
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Hmm. Funny, I've seen you up around 10 or 12k, just as high as most folks fly. If you are so great in a "knife fight" certainly you have no problem overcoming someone with an alt advantage.
I was about to post another comment but I saw a troll that needed smashing.
Stiglr,
Steve is an example of a pilot who uses alt, ubber rides, and hordes as a crutch. He lands alot of K/d because he aviods fights and can easily run from a fight in his P51D.
Steve, just let me know if you want to fight in the DA some time, we can even fly ponies if youd like, maybe you can teach me how to use a sqauddie to get a 109 into rolling scissors then pick him when hes out of E. I know I can learn that seems pretty easy
:salute
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I was about to post another comment but I saw a troll that needed smashing.
Stiglr,
Steve is an example of a pilot who uses alt, ubber rides, and hordes as a crutch. He lands alot of K/d because he aviods fights and can easily run from a fight in his P51D.
Steve, just let me know if you want to fight in the DA some time, we can even fly ponies if youd like, maybe you can teach me how to use a sqauddie to get a 109 into rolling scissors then pick him when hes out of E. I know I can learn that seems pretty easy
:salute
Stiglr, don't pay too much attention to Junky. He's just a crybaby. I killed him the other day while he was in a K4. You know a k4, a plane which dominates the p51 I fly. He's still crying like it's my fault his SA failed him. By the way, in the fight he mentions, my squaddie had already been picked(killed) by one of Junky's teammates by the time I killed Junky. It's ok for his team to kill guys, but not his opponent's team. Junky, please PM me your address, I'll mail you a whole pack of pacifiers and a nice binky.
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Stiglr, don't pay too much attention to Junky. He's just a crybaby. I killed him the other day while he was in a K4. You know a k4, a plane which dominates the p51 I fly. He's still crying like it's my fault his SA failed him. By the way, in the fight he mentions, my squaddie had already been picked(killed) by one of Junky's teammates by the time I killed Junky. It's ok for his team to kill guys, but not his opponent's team. Junky, please PM me your address, I'll mail you a whole pack of pacifiers and a nice binky.
Now we're fishing!!
Instead of having this arguement on the Aces High board, how about we talk this over on POTWs boards where it doesnt upset thee community....Ill even start the thread for you.
You do still look at it from time to time correct?
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I'll mail you a whole pack of pacifiers and a nice binky.
USED binkies :neener:
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Now we're fishing!!
Instead of having this arguement on the Aces High board, how about we talk this over on POTWs boards where it doesnt upset thee community....Ill even start the thread for you.
You do still look at it from time to time correct?
There's nothing to talk about. You invent things about how I play the game in an effort to make me look bad because I kill you once in a while. You lie. I really don't see what there is to discuss.
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USED binkies :neener:
TW9, whats your in game callsign?
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There's nothing to talk about. You invent things about how I play the game in an effort to make me look bad because I kill you once in a while. You lie. I really don't see what there is to discuss.
Steve,
If you take Junky bantor seriously, you may need psychological help...
:devil
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Steve,
If you take Junky bantor seriously, you may need psychological help...
:devil
Well, you may have just hooked me, then. Please just cut the line I swallowed it.
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.
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Better question: there were more than two people playing Targetware online at the same time?
Hehehhe, funny...
Yes, we do get a smallish crowd every now and then on Targetware. But, the FM makes it worthwhile. As is planes like the Ki-45 and others that only get whined about in this sim's Wishlist forum. ;)
Still, for times we don't have many flying, I have plenty to do building a dozen or more aircraft, writing scenarios, 3D modeling, solving problems and what not... the goal is in sight! I really think we'll have a Target:Corregidor launch this year, without question!!! :)
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All true, but the fact of the REAL event was, pilots with their real life tulips on the line tended to insist on having those advantages as often as they could.
Well of course. Why wouldn't you? If this was not a game and the tracers flying at me represented a very real danger to my life; you bet your bottom I'd be at 30,000 feet, if "playing" at all. Thankfully, this is just a game.
Nothing you have stated (with a disclaimer than I may have missed something), with respect to "real engagements" is untrue. However, when you look at the historical accounts of real engagements, there is nearly always a party at a disadvantage. This goes back to your comment that DA 1v1's are "staged." Throwing an arbitrary number out there, 90% of all kills recorded in WWII were the result of one party (a) being at a disadvantage and (b) being unaware.
The pilots with the most stick time, typically Germans, found themselves in situations where they were at a positional disadvantage, often enough. Some; especially those with time on the Eastern Front (for whatever reason), pro-actively sought to teach newer pilots the methods by which to combat and reverse these disadvantages.
Take it from the man himself: "Never abandon the possibility of attack. Attack even from a position of inferiority, to disrupt the enemy's plans. This often results in improving one's own position."
How much "attacking from a position of inferiority" do you see in the MA? I don't see much. I see a lot of running as soon as the advantage is lost. I think this is because the average player who finds himself at an "unexpected" disadvantage (read: "How the **** did he do THAT!?") does not understand how to turn the tables back around again. By running, he is doing the absolute worst possible thing he can do - show the bad guy his tail.
It's a rare treat when I come across an aggressive pile-it who attacks from a disadvantage (smartly, not recklessly). You can identify those savvy cartoon warriors within the first few seconds and you know that the fight will be a good one. By contrast, chasing Mustangs or Doras or Tempests all over the map until they can drag you to a small air force of Spit 16's gets tiresome...
The real joy of this game for me, and for many others, are those instances where, even in the case of unequal positions, a good fight results.
It's like chess in - not only three - but all four dimensions; the fourth being time... that ability to observe the behavior of an enemy aircraft at that particular moment; and predict what *he* intends to do and where *he* intends to be 5 seconds from then... placing *yourself* in a position with in the three spacial dimensions to gain an advantage at that position and instant. When *both* of the contestants are doing this simultaneously, you end up with a palm-moisturizing fight that is fluid, dynamic and lasts minutes, not seconds.
It's a rare, rare treat these days. In fact, its so rare that, when it happens, most of the guys who have been playing AH/AW/WB for years can usually identify the other guy just by what he's flying and how he's flying it.
The list ain't that long anymore. If I see a Corsair on the deck, surrounded by cons, with flaps out and guns blazing,, its Skyrock. If I see smart, but very aggressive, tactical decision making out of a 38, I know its Delirium. Same plane, but more "passive trickery?" Probably Soulyss. La7's used to be immediately identifiable as Shane. Lord help you if you came across a Spit V with another in tow... there's Levi and the H-man. If I see a 51 below 5K and slower than the speed of sound, its Oldmn. Etc, etc, etc, there are maybe twenty of these guys left, if that.
Point is, there is so much more to this game than landing X number of kills. Just like women, its quality, not quantity. I'd rather have Jenna Jameson once than Rosie O'Donnell a thousand times.
With absolutely no malice or intent to antagonize, I would be glad to go over to the DA with you, purely for fun, to show you just how much of the game you are missing and just how much there really is to learn. Why else to you think some of us have been playing the same games for 10-15 years?
You can start at 20K, Ill start on the deck. Plane of your choice and I'll show you how you got beaten afterwards... and hell... I ain't even very good anymore. Noobs like Grizz can beat me half the time. ;)
Cheers.
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Sauerdaukar wrote:
Well of course. Why wouldn't you? If this was not a game and the tracers flying at me represented a very real danger to my life; you bet your bottom I'd be at 30,000 feet, if "playing" at all. Thankfully, this is just a game.
And there's our main point of disagreement. I'm after a simulation experience, you settle for just a game. I get a lot of interest and entertainment value in examining things closer to what it might have really been like, and that trumps any "game" experience.
The "game" is great when you're new to this, and just the idea of fighting virtual airplanes against other people all over the world is a real rush. But, after you do that for a bit, you realize there's an opportunity to get more. You can get some insight into the war, gain an appreciation for the men and women who flew these planes without a "respawn" option, etc. Simulations provide an equal opportunity to learn and appreciate, AND also have a lot of fun with it. With just a "game" you can get just as much fun (and waste just as much pointless time) playing Doom.
Simulation beats gaming hands down, IMO. :aok
As for the dueling arena, nah, not at all interested. I used to sometimes allow myself to get sucked into a duel while playing IL-2 on HyperLobby, usually to shut up some idiot who had as big a mouth as I do, but no sense behind what he says. I'd use situational awareness and some real world tactics to easily beat his "mad sTyk sKiLLz" and of course, now he's whining that i'm using some kind of cheat. Pfff, like I need a cheat to beat some Nintendo refugee. :lol
Anyway, if I ever did use a dueling arena, I'd use it as a teaching arena, where one person can learn from another using some predetermined maneuvering. I don't see it as much of a true test of skill for being able to survive in the very unpredictable world of combat.
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I wouldnt compare AH to Doom in any capacity but I do agree that the historical aspect of AH is a huge draw - probably for many of us here.
For that, we have some very well run scenarios.
Its your $15, fly as you like. My offer stands. :)
EDIT: As a caveat, I will again mention that my offer is without malice. I do not desire to prove anything - I genuinely enjoy teaching. That epiphany, or spark of realization, when a newer player "gets it" is honestly rewarding for me and many others (all the trainers, for example). It makes the game more enjoyable for both the student and, by default, the rest of the community.
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Yes, if I did bother to fly in AH, it'd be in scenarios and events almost exclusively.
I'm so OVER the "arena" paradigm.
It's all about the mission.
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:rofl I've sent your Tempest running home on several occasions. Someone comes in higher then you and you're running home in a flash. Don't talk to me about ACMs. You're a opportunitist only concerned with K/D, score and survival. You sir are a Pacerr in a bishop uniform.
Lol you have always run even with altitude and no you never have gotten close to my Tempest or you would have died of fright.
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Lol you have always run even with altitude and no you never have gotten close to my Tempest or you would have died of fright.
(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk121/TheAmish/rodney-dangerfield.jpg) ahh yeah
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Uptown I know you have grown incredibly arrogant since you have left the pups but the fact remains you have never been able to beat me 1v1 coalt in the same plane and now suddenly you have grown cocky and think you can beat me in a Tempest?
What have you been smoking? :huh
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stglr,
you seem to finally be maturing. Its been a long ugly process but I am hopeful for you. Make your mission "simulation" and be happy with whatever happens.
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Always up for a duel myself :)
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This stuff is obvious.
Being able to duel with rules is a great skill to have and is very applicable to MA style gameplay as far as entering and exiting any particular fight is concerned.
Expecting Dueling behaviors in the MA game is a poor expectation to have, silly....... and one that is wrong simply because dueling is a closed event dictated by rules and expectations of entry and exit, whereas MA play is open, a free for all anything goes event. Thats why I prefer the MA over dueling, much more dynamic and enjoyable for me personally.
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Uptown I know you have grown incredibly arrogant since you have left the pups but the fact remains you have never been able to beat me 1v1 coalt in the same plane and now suddenly you have grown cocky and think you can beat me in a Tempest?
What have you been smoking? :huh
:lol don't confuse arrogance for distain. The bottom line is that you're self absorbed in avoiding anything that will interfer with your score. You go out of your way to not fight. Everyone here knows that :lol WTF are you kidding? Pretty sad a man of your age putting in all those hours in this game :rolleyes:
And I've always been somewhat arrogant and cocky. I'll see ya around :aok
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I see you bought that line of bull over what you know to be true. You always were a little on the slow side but Im still holding out hope you will wake up one day.
Whats really sad is you thinking your all that. :rofl
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Chalenge,
I wouldnt mind going to the DA with you to see if you do got the skillz unlike some of the other high score guys do. Im sure it would be a fun fight, we can even do it at the high alt bases for you :devil :salute
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Dueling certainly helps one become a monster in the game but it doesn't teach one everything you need to know.
Some of the best duelers in the game, guys who can fly circles around just about everyone else, tend to get picked a lot in the MA.
MA related SA is not something one will learn while dueling 1v1. I know guys who fly into a mass of planes and call out a single plane "I got the C-hog" then ignore the rest of the bunch. In the middle of the furball 1 of two things, or both, will happen. Someone else will get a solution on the duelers target and kill them, inducing a raging tirade from said dueler. Or the dueler will get picked, inducing a raging tirade from said dueler. You can count on it like the sun, a challenge to the DA will follow, as if the DA is somehow the place where one is proclaimed a good stick in the game in spite of the fact that over 90% of the fights that happen in the game happen in the MA. This almost never fails to amuse me. I'm fallible too though, every once in a while I fall into the same trap although less and less frequently. Later, I laugh at myself.
I've winged with these duelers as we approach a group of 5 or 6 planes. "I've got the Ki" says the dueler. Am I supposed to handle the remaining 4 or 5 planes while you duel? :lol
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Dueling certainly helps one become a monster in the game but it doesn't teach one everything you need to know.
Some of the best duelers in the game, guys who can fly circles around just about everyone else, tend to get picked a lot in the MA.
MA related SA is not something one will learn while dueling 1v1. I know guys who fly into a mass of planes and call out a single plane "I got the C-hog" then ignore the rest of the bunch. In the middle of the furball 1 of two things, or both, will happen. Someone else will get a solution on the duelers target and kill them, inducing a raging tirade from said dueler. Or the dueler will get picked, inducing a raging tirade from said dueler. You can count on it like the sun, a challenge to the DA will follow, as if the DA is somehow the place where one is proclaimed a good stick in the game in spite of the fact that over 90% of the fights that happen in the game happen in the MA. This almost never fails to amuse me. I'm fallible too though, every once in a while I fall into the same trap although less and less frequently. Later, I laugh at myself.
I've winged with these duelers as we approach a group of 5 or 6 planes. "I've got the Ki" says the dueler. Am I supposed to handle the remaining 4 or 5 planes while you duel? :lol
You are correct you wont learn the skill of MA SA in the DA, but if someone is smart enough to learn what it takes to be a "best dueler" I am sure they can learn how to "control" a furball and get kills without dieing in the MA.
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You are correct you wont learn the skill of MA SA in the DA, but if someone is smart enough to learn what it takes to be a "best dueler" I am sure they can learn how to "control" a furball and get kills without dieing in the MA.
Well you could be right.. but it sems to be the case in some. Some people have bad SA, some people don't care if they get picked, others are too lazy to look around(I think). It all ends up the same.. they get picked in a furball often.
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Furball lake in the DA is great SA practice imo. As lame as it can get there, it does have it's benefits.
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I see you bought that line of bull over what you know to be true. You always were a little on the slow side but Im still holding out hope you will wake up one day.
Whats really sad is you thinking your all that. :rofl
You're dismissed VOSS
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Dueling certainly helps one become a monster in the game but it doesn't teach one everything you need to know.
Some of the best duelers in the game, guys who can fly circles around just about everyone else, tend to get picked a lot in the MA.
MA related SA is not something one will learn while dueling 1v1. I know guys who fly into a mass of planes and call out a single plane "I got the C-hog" then ignore the rest of the bunch. In the middle of the furball 1 of two things, or both, will happen. Someone else will get a solution on the duelers target and kill them, inducing a raging tirade from said dueler. Or the dueler will get picked, inducing a raging tirade from said dueler. You can count on it like the sun, a challenge to the DA will follow, as if the DA is somehow the place where one is proclaimed a good stick in the game in spite of the fact that over 90% of the fights that happen in the game happen in the MA. This almost never fails to amuse me. I'm fallible too though, every once in a while I fall into the same trap although less and less frequently. Later, I laugh at myself.
I've winged with these duelers as we approach a group of 5 or 6 planes. "I've got the Ki" says the dueler. Am I supposed to handle the remaining 4 or 5 planes while you duel? :lol
:lol +1 So true.
There are plenty of situations where 1v1s,1v2s arise, but like you say, The more planes there are in an engagement, the less important ACM becomes and more important SA comes.
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when i first got here i was amazed how piss poor the teamwork in a fight could be, the general Macho Lone Wolf Attitude that is so pervasive here explains it. i got so frustrated with the crappy drags of guys begging for help i swear i wanted to shoot many of them myself. there is so much more to being good at this stuff than what you can learn from dueling that such personal combat kills are probably no higher than 5th in what makes one a good player IMO.
it is funny though it is like a mood thing as if someone starts making efforts to work a fur-ball together it gets contagious and all of a sudden the "good guys" just start to clean up ...
funny though how so many proponents of personal combat skill over all else rationalize their arguments, like steve says i would much prefer to fly and work with a bunch of mediocre to competent pilots who communicate well and want to work together, than a gaggle of self absorbed wunder~piwets all trying to carve themselves a duel out of a fur-ball at the expense of the rest of his team.
really good virtual pilots are so easy to fight with that they make everyone else on their team around them better without hardly saying a word.
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Balance is the key for me. I do know one thing is certain though, on average, the dueling/furball guys who get picked off most the time are doing so as a result of their own indifference and pure desire to just mix it up. A lot of these guys are very skilled and could fly with more strategy and SA if they so chose to do. Take Corky for example. It just bores them to death, nothing wrong with that in the least bit, encouraging the fight, kudos to them. The other side of the coin however, your Chalenge's for example. Guys that will avoid fights at any cost if there's a 5% chance of death, these guys have good SA and ability to stay alive. I don't however, think these guys know much if anything at all about ACM and actually maneuvering their aircraft in an advantageless position. Prove me wrong though Chalenge, fight me in the DA, if you demonstrate that you do know how to do anything other than pick, I will vouch for you in that sense that you do have some skills. Until then, you're probably going to get jabbed until the end of time on these boards. :aok
I'll usually avoid situations if there is higher than a 60-70% chance of death(subjective but my brain works out those things instinctively and translates them into stats, as I usually die >50% of the time :)), but will go in guns a blazing if I have a reasonable chance of success. That's how I have fun in this game, a good balance between SA and aggression.
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I'll usually avoid situations if there is higher than a 60-70% chance of death(subjective but my brain works out those things instinctively and translates them into stats, as I usually die >50% of the time :)), but will go in guns a blazing if I have a reasonable chance of success. That's how I have fun in this game, a good balance between SA and aggression.
*** DING DING DING ***
:aok
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Lol you have always run even with altitude and no you never have gotten close to my Tempest or you would have died of fright.
No one has gotten close to your Tempest, no one wants to waste time grabbing to 35k to chase a timid player.
ack-ack
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No one has gotten close to your Tempest, no one wants to waste time grabbing to 35k to chase a timid player.
ack-ack
I dont know where he gets his kills from in the MA, for how many times I have seen him online....I have yet to come across him, but I spend maybe 5% of my flight time above the clouds....if that :D
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Alt is not a crutch, it's a historic and time tested ADVANTAGE, just like speed, and just like good SA.
I'd argue that "hair on fire" furballing is pretty much game gaming, as the pilots who rely on that wouldn't do the same if their real lives were on the line. On the opposite side of that coin, a nice unseen bounce or a calculated B&Z from altitude is a "risk" most of us would take if we were literally risking our real ONE life.
And by the way, although I crave the "easy" unseen kill (not always easy when there are icons), and prefer a one- or two-pass boom and zoom kill to a 5-minute turn til you puke scrap... I'm far from helpless in a knife-fight. Just last week, I killed an Oscar "knifefighting" while in a damaged SBD Dauntless, and there was a Ki-45 Toryu helping out the Ki driver. There I had no choice but to mix it up, as I surely wasn't able to run for it.
Obviously new and has no clue yet.
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I dont know where he gets his kills from in the MA, for how many times I have seen him online....I have yet to come across him, but I spend maybe 5% of my flight time above the clouds....if that :D
He got me the other night in his Tempest. Some of us upping into the mob trying to take a base. He screamed through and picked me after the guys actually fighting had gotten me nice, low and slow. He was back on his perch quickly :)
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He was back on his perch quickly :)
That's because it's a widely known fact that at 35k, scorpions can't bite you.
ack-ack
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Dueling certainly helps one become a monster in the game but it doesn't teach one everything you need to know.
Some of the best duelers in the game, guys who can fly circles around just about everyone else, tend to get picked a lot in the MA.
<<snip>>
I've winged with these duelers as we approach a group of 5 or 6 planes. "I've got the Ki" says Agent360. Am I supposed to handle the remaining 4 or 5 planes while you duel? :lol
Steve - stop picking on me :O
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You're dismissed VOSS
You know Town I always thought you would amount to more than you are but now your name calling proves only one thing... you arent worth it and never were. Take the boys here out for a viewing of Rocky Horror and take a good look around. :aok
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Chalenge,
I wouldnt mind going to the DA with you to see if you do got the skillz unlike some of the other high score guys do. Im sure it would be a fun fight, we can even do it at the high alt bases for you :devil :salute
What for? I have been attacked by you with altitude in your favor and you lost. I can name maybe three guys in this thread that have anything to show for themselves and mostly its one or two moves they pull everytime. Once you learn the counter move they are finished and unless they can press an attack from an advantage they cannot kill anymore than the next guy. The one guy in this thread that I have ANY respect for his flying is Steve and I will say it is always a pleasure to see him around doing the exact same thing I am (and low).
I pay my $12.50/mo to play like I want and I do. It doesnt matter if you all call me 'VOSS' or 'LUCY' or 'Linus' I am still going to fly the way I like and most likely you will keep dieing the way you die. YOU say I care about score and I say I care about RANK and only to control the CV on rare occasions... thats it. RANK is simple to achieve and only requires one LAME trip with rockets on a PT or 251 that takes maybe 45 seconds in one case or five minutes in the case of the 251. The rest is base captures which I hate doing also but I will occasionally. Yes I actually enjoy flying bombers and killing dweebs at 35k and driving a Tiger around and popping tanks. Its just as much fun as attacking twenty bombers tightly packed in a stream with fighter escort and all of that is a great deal more fun to me than dueling or spit-balling. You should try to have fun sometime but... no... you would rather argue and piss and moan about someone else having fun with his time. If it puts wind in your sails go for it. ;)
For you... ANY of you... to criticize me for enjoying an historically accurate aspect of WWII combat is as lame as firing rockets at buildings and you dont even have the satisfaction of seeing your rank come down. How fulfilling for you! If you dont like the way people play then you should complain to HTC instead of whining online about it.
Oh and to the guy (in this thread) that I killed just tonight doing just that (score potato you know who you are) after you mouthed off about score potatos... glass houses bud.
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I have ANY respect for his flying is Steve and I will say it is always a pleasure to see him around doing the exact same thing I am (and low).
Chalenge, I honestly don't know how you fly, do we fly alike? Call it weird I but I never see you in the game. You'll find me on the lowest number side mostly under 8k(too lazy to go higher), using my plane's strengths and what skill I have to fight the hordes. I don't do this to be some kind of AH crusader. I don't pretend what I do is any better for the team/game than what anyone else is doing. I do this for my own selfish reason: it's the only thing that is fun for me and also helps out my team, if only a little tiny bit. I enjoy the challenge of flying against numbers while trying to survive. Really the only person I know of who relates to this is Grizz, and maybe Zazen to an extent. Is this your bag too?
I agree that it's your $$ and you should play the game as it's fun for you. Since I don't run into you I'm not sure what you do to tick peopl off but it seems to have that effect, lol.
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Yes even though I love to fight high altitude (where no one knows how to fly) my favorite way to get kills is at a field being attacked by NOE numbheads thinking their going to get an easy cap. AND if I use the P-51 or the Tempest either way its my money and I decide what to pick at the hangar. If I see cannon birds I fly a cannon bird and if I see a lot of spits and hogs and cats I fly the pony. Its just that simple.
Yes you have been right there with me at fields with CVs attacking. Sorry you didnt remember it but I was surprised to see another 51 anywhere near it. It doesnt surprise me that these guys cant relate because they cant do it themselves, Its just that simple. :D
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The one guy in this thread that I have ANY respect for his flying is Steve and I will say it is always a pleasure to see him around doing the exact same thing I am (and low).
I've been flying with and against Steve ever since he was ->Poopy in AW and I will say for the record that he does not fly in anyway like you do.
ack-ack
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What for? I have been attacked by you with altitude in your favor and you lost. I can name maybe three guys in this thread that have anything to show for themselves and mostly its one or two moves they pull everytime. Once you learn the counter move they are finished and unless they can press an attack from an advantage they cannot kill anymore than the next guy. The one guy in this thread that I have ANY respect for his flying is Steve and I will say it is always a pleasure to see him around doing the exact same thing I am (and low).
I pay my $12.50/mo to play like I want and I do. It doesnt matter if you all call me 'VOSS' or 'LUCY' or 'Linus' I am still going to fly the way I like and most likely you will keep dieing the way you die. YOU say I care about score and I say I care about RANK and only to control the CV on rare occasions... thats it. RANK is simple to achieve and only requires one LAME trip with rockets on a PT or 251 that takes maybe 45 seconds in one case or five minutes in the case of the 251. The rest is base captures which I hate doing also but I will occasionally. Yes I actually enjoy flying bombers and killing dweebs at 35k and driving a Tiger around and popping tanks. Its just as much fun as attacking twenty bombers tightly packed in a stream with fighter escort and all of that is a great deal more fun to me than dueling or spit-balling. You should try to have fun sometime but... no... you would rather argue and piss and moan about someone else having fun with his time. If it puts wind in your sails go for it. ;)
For you... ANY of you... to criticize me for enjoying an historically accurate aspect of WWII combat is as lame as firing rockets at buildings and you dont even have the satisfaction of seeing your rank come down. How fulfilling for you! If you dont like the way people play then you should complain to HTC instead of whining online about it.
Oh and to the guy (in this thread) that I killed just tonight doing just that (score potato you know who you are) after you mouthed off about score potatos... glass houses bud.
Easy big fella, I was asking if you wanted to have a friendly DA match with alittle joke on the end.....Please provide a film of you killing me when I had an alt advantage then maybe Ill believe your flying isnt that bad.
Something people dont know about my flying in the MA, I like having cons come from my 6 or from above, I think I give them an easier chance at the HO then when I can force an overshoot....I doubt you fly lower then me....at all
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From a noted squad mate of of one Voss.
Chalenge is Voss.
Huh go figure.
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The VOSS CONSPIRACY... fascinating new book (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,123551.0.html)
Yeah I know it is a huge thread (over 2,000 replies).
If you have not you should read it.
At least read the below quote from the first page so you know why everyone has the opinion that they do about Paul "Voss" Hinds.
This is from a close associate who was part of the Voss scam called 'TAS' .. and aye, Maverick .. he probably took the name of the squadron, but the scam was not done by the squad ...it was perpetrated by Voss.
> How much money did he get from who?
Before I answer your question, I'll put my cards face up on the table, just so you know where I'm coming from.
Back when Paul "Voss" Hinds began his Scam I had already been playing AW for several years. Voss was a member of an Air Warrior Squadron called the 13th TAS, a Squad that has since had links with other online flight sim's and is also currently running in Aces High.
I only mention that because TAS was the name of the new online game at the centre of the scam, and it is important to point out that they were in no way connected with it, as far as I know the other members of the Squad are all honourable men.
Also, I've never written any of this down before, so by way of disclaimer, I will say that I'm working entirely from memory, but this is in any case how I remember those events as they occurred.
I was one of the beta testers for TAS and although I was one of the lucky ones, the scam cost me money, and wasted a great deal of my time. Also, let's not forget that at the time this was the biggest, longest and most outrageous scam ever to hit the flight sim' community! Now you know where I'm coming from, I'll answer your question.
The person who lost the most was the main investor, Michael "Amok" Hobuss, who I believe was one of Voss's AW Squad mates. From my perspective as one of the beta testers, the deal appeared to be that Voss did all the programming and design while Amok covered the expenses and development
costs, including having a new powerful development machine delivered to Voss, setting up and maintaining the beta team, bulletin board, and all advertising and promotional costs.
Now before we go any farther, let's just look at that set-up. Voss had built credibility by claiming to have two doctorates, and vast relevant experience, he was not just exaggerating, he was deliberately giving false information to a squad mate, in order to
encourage him into parting with money and equipment for services he knew that he could not deliver.
He was never in the CIA, was never an F-16 pilot and he did not shoot down two enemy aircraft has he claimed, he did not own
a P-51, and has probably never even flown one, and he did not have two PhDs.
He fabricated that entire web of lies with the obvious motivation of securing investment for his own personal gain.
This scam lasted a long time, and was fed with screen shots that looked magnificent, but which were in fact only artwork, and the delays were blamed on all manner of incredible circumstances, a scorpion bite, brain tumour, even some mention of special missions with the CIA.
During that time a large number of people were involved on the beta site, and I was one of them. I've heard that some of the beta testers were also asked for front money, but I can't recall being asked, but I do remember that I didn't send money. So I can't confirm that.
The scam dragged on so long that someone eventually checked into his background, and his military service was the first thing to come under scrutiny.
When it transpired that he had not been an F-16 pilot in the
USAF, he invented the CIA story to explain why his name didn't appear in military records, but the wall was beginning to crumble.
As more of his lies were exposed, Michael Hobuss became suspicious, but no doubt found it very hard to believe that a squad mate would lie and steal from him, so at that point he was actually covering for him.
Then things began to move quickly, because his stories were stretching credibility to the limit. I know how long you need to remain in education to get a PhD, not to mention two! Computer skills that exceeded those of the best programmers of the day, USAF training, a flying career, converting to F-16s, recruitment by the CIA, a privately owned P-51, and this man appeared to have achieved more than most could manage in two life times.
Everyone was suspicious and people were asking awkward questions. Michael Hobuss was also getting nervous and began asking awkward questions too, and that's when Voss disappeared. The Scorpion bite! It was reported that Folk
even visited Voss in hospital, so perhaps that part was true, but it just went down hill from there.
Time dragged on, and after more revelations, and no further evidence that the game even existed, Voss was supposed to have a brain tumour resulting in the end of the game's development, but then Michael Hobuss blew the whistle!
He admitted he had been conned, and lost his hardware, the
expenses and development costs, and that there never was any game. Any beta testers who had fronted money to the project had lost it. I had spent a lot of time logging onto the beta test site and incurred telephone costs and wasted many hours of my own time, but I was one of the lucky ones!
How much did Michael Hobuss eventually lose, I can't say, but I'd guess the figure must have been at least several thousand, and to be fair I heard that he was able to recover some of it. I'm not even sure how much I lost, I certainly wasn't bothered about it because it would have only been a fraction of what I was spending on AW at that time
This was a classic con! He fooled an investor, into parting with money and goods, by pretending to be something he wasn't.
The scam involved a large number of people, and left the community shaken, not because they had been taken in by a conman, but because they had been taken by one of their own,
some one many believed to be a squad mate and a friend.
For many it wasn't so much the money as the betrayal, that hurt that most.
Now I guess that all this could be forgotten if Voss had gone away, but he is still here, and he is attempting to rebuild his stock in the community.
Only recently he put out a call to the Aces High community to become involved in another project, that appeared to have all the hallmarks of another scam.
I was amazed when I saw it, and I thought to myself, "Here we
go again". Make no mistake, given the opportunity I believe he would do it again, it even looks very much as though he has actually tried already.
But fortunately, nobody took the bait. They never took the bait thanks to the efforts of those who remember, nobody has been allowed to forget.
The community has successfully protected itself by not allowing others to be taken in. That in my humble opinion is the morally correct, right and proper, thing to do.
When I see folk rehash the Voss stuff (as you call it) I'm always pleased to see it, because everytime it comes out I think that perhaps another few individuals have been made wise to him.
It also saddens me to see others defend him, because they are only helping him build a platform from which to strike again.
I haven't been able to give you exact figures, but does that answer your question?
Badz
-brought to you by Frank P. 'Gray Eagle' Williamson
Challenge was identified on vox as being Voss.
You are scum Voss.
Hell you are worse than scum.
There are pieces of offal in between the hooves of disease ridden pigs wallowing in a sewer that are better than you.
We don't want you in our community.
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The VOSS CONSPIRACY... fascinating new book (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,123551.0.html)
Yeah I know it is a huge thread.
If you have not you should read it.
Challenge was identified on vox as being Voss.
You are scum Voss.
Hell you are worse than scum.
There are pieces of offal in between the hooves of disease ridden pigs wallowing in a sewer that are better than you.
We don't want you in our community.
Guess he should have bought a voice modulator with all the moneys he scammed. This could get ugly. :uhoh
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That's because it's a widely known fact that at 35k, scorpions can't bite you.
ack-ack
:rofl :rofl Chalenge has even told me his first name is Paul :noid His squadmates know him by that name as well :devil
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I heard Samuel L. Jackson is working on a sequel, Scorpions on a Plane! :rofl
(http://www.thelmagazine.com/images/blogimages/2009/07/22/1248274499-scorpions-on-the-plane-26080.jpg)
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What for? I have been attacked by you with altitude in your favor and you lost. I can name maybe three guys in this thread that have anything to show for themselves and mostly its one or two moves they pull everytime. Once you learn the counter move they are finished and unless they can press an attack from an advantage they cannot kill anymore than the next guy. The one guy in this thread that I have ANY respect for his flying is Steve and I will say it is always a pleasure to see him around doing the exact same thing I am (and low).
I pay my $12.50/mo to play like I want and I do. It doesnt matter if you all call me 'VOSS' or 'LUCY' or 'Linus' I am still going to fly the way I like and most likely you will keep dieing the way you die. YOU say I care about score and I say I care about RANK and only to control the CV on rare occasions... thats it. RANK is simple to achieve and only requires one LAME trip with rockets on a PT or 251 that takes maybe 45 seconds in one case or five minutes in the case of the 251. The rest is base captures which I hate doing also but I will occasionally. Yes I actually enjoy flying bombers and killing dweebs at 35k and driving a Tiger around and popping tanks. Its just as much fun as attacking twenty bombers tightly packed in a stream with fighter escort and all of that is a great deal more fun to me than dueling or spit-balling. You should try to have fun sometime but... no... you would rather argue and piss and moan about someone else having fun with his time. If it puts wind in your sails go for it. ;)
For you... ANY of you... to criticize me for enjoying an historically accurate aspect of WWII combat is as lame as firing rockets at buildings and you dont even have the satisfaction of seeing your rank come down. How fulfilling for you! If you dont like the way people play then you should complain to HTC instead of whining online about it.
Oh and to the guy (in this thread) that I killed just tonight doing just that (score potato you know who you are) after you mouthed off about score potatos... glass houses bud.
I don't think they are criticizing how you fly..... they seem to be just laughing.
-
The VOSS CONSPIRACY... fascinating new book (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,123551.0.html)
Yeah I know it is a huge thread (over 2,000 replies).
If you have not you should read it.
At least read the below quote from the first page so you know why everyone has the opinion that they do about Paul "Voss" Hinds.
Challenge was identified on vox as being Voss.
You are scum Voss.
Hell you are worse than scum.
There are pieces of offal in between the hooves of disease ridden pigs wallowing in a sewer that are better than you.
We don't want you in our community.
That might be the funniest thread ever. I wish I'd have saved Fester's book cover.
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Dam, I knew I shouldn't have tried to wait til Dayton to let this cat out...
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Dam, I knew I shouldn't have tried to wait til Dayton to let this cat out...
"Kitty hungry!"
(http://www.smurfy.com/media/IMAGES/Funny/hungry-kitty.jpg)
:noid
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"Kitty hungry!"
(http://www.smurfy.com/media/IMAGES/Funny/hungry-kitty.jpg)
:noid
He must have been a previous investor.. must not have been able to take it any longer...
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I don't think they are criticizing how you fly..... they seem to be just laughing.
I dont know whats funnier, the jokes about flying at 30k......or him not being able to take a joke :aok
honestly Chalenge or voss(who I dont even know) all fun and games ;)
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I dont know whats funnier, the jokes about flying at 30k......or him not being able to take a joke :aok
honestly Chalenge or voss(who I dont even know) all fun and games ;)
you gotta be careful about joking with thu dammag of thu brayne poepl. :noid
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TW9, whats your in game callsign?
sorry just noticed this. its TW9 oO
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sorry just noticed this. its TW9 oO
Who R U? :)
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Who R U? :)
i is ur daddeh
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sorry just noticed this. its TW9 oO
ah, just never seen you online :salute
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ah, just never seen you online :salute
Yeah he's an old time Muppet covered in cobwebs and dust. He's technically 'active' but I have yet to see him either. <G>
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ah, just never seen you online :salute
lol ya i re-upped a months worth after 2-3 year vaca only to get maybe 2 or 3 days of flying in. Just dont have the time now days. maybe in a couple months i can embrace the skies with my L33tNe355 :aok
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lol ya i re-upped a months worth after 2-3 year vaca only to get maybe 2 or 3 days of flying in. Just dont have the time now days. maybe in a couple months i can embrace the skies with my L33tNe355 :aok
Ill be glad to fight ya when you get back to dust-off some cobb webs.........hope you still got it :devil :salute
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I dont know whats funnier, the jokes about flying at 30k......or him not being able to take a joke :aok
honestly Chalenge or voss(who I dont even know) all fun and games ;)
Nothing funny about Voss. Read Lute's post above fully. There is good reason why he shunned by the flight sim community as a whole.
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Nothing funny about Voss. Read Lute's post above fully. There is good reason why he shunned by the flight sim community as a whole.
I saw something about him taking money or something, Id hope these were just rumors......the quality of people is going down in this world :(
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I saw something about him taking money or something, Id hope these were just rumors......the quality of people is going down in this world :(
Junky, what Voss did is well known and documented. If ANYTHING what he did is played down in that thread.
The guy really is a scum bag.
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Junky, what Voss did is well known and documented. If ANYTHING what he did is played down in that thread.
The guy really is a scum bag.
What he said :aok
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There is almost no relationship between duelling and MA fighting except in regard to the most fundamental aspects of performing ACMs in general.
When duelling there are rules and restrictions that limit choice and freedom of action from the hanger to the merge. So, initiative tends to remain rather balanced and the longer the fight, the more restricted your options become as E states degrade, it is a game of move and counter-move. Duels are largely determined by the proper selection of those moves and counter-moves and their efficient execution relative to your opponent. Outside of that finite realm there are relatively few decisions to be made based upon almost perfect information until the final outcome. It's a fairly straightforward process.
MA fighting, on the other-hand, is an endless stream of open ended decisions that must constantly be made and acted upon. Unlike in duels, the conditions are both infinitely varied and dynamically changing with both known and unknown mitigating variables. The initiative swings wildly back and forth between yourself and your opponent(s) and unlike duelling your decisions are intrinsically based upon only partial and imperfect information. This chaotic environment produces a plethora of decisions that you must make throughout with subsequent results that are unique to ones' own mental disposition, approach to the game and relative plane performance considerations. No two people will enter a fray and perform the exact same maneuvers, make the same decisions and actions or think of the fight in the same way.
In summary, the primary focus of duels leans toward the physical stick-work of flying itself, wheras MA fighting's focus is primarily on mental acuity and decision making.
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There is almost no relationship between duelling and MA fighting except in regard to the most fundamental aspects of performing ACMs in general.
When duelling there are rules and restrictions that limit choice and freedom of action from the hanger to the merge. So, initiative tends to remain rather balanced and the longer the fight, the more restricted your options become as E states degrade, it is a game of move and counter-move. Duels are largely determined by the proper selection of those moves and counter-moves and their efficient execution relative to your opponent. Outside of that finite realm there are relatively few decisions to be made based upon almost perfect information until the final outcome. It's a fairly straightforward process.
MA fighting, on the other-hand, is an endless stream of open ended decisions that must constantly be made and acted upon. Unlike in duels, the conditions are both infinitely varied and dynamically changing with both known and unknown mitigating variables. The initiative swings wildly back and forth between yourself and your opponent(s) and unlike duelling your decisions are intrinsically based upon only partial and imperfect information. This chaotic environment produces a plethora of decisions that you must make throughout with subsequent results that are unique to ones' own mental disposition, approach to the game and relative plane performance considerations. No two people will enter a fray and perform the exact same maneuvers, make the same decisions and actions or think of the fight in the same way.
In summary, the primary focus of duels leans toward the physical stick-work of flying itself, wheras MA fighting's focus is primarily on mental acuity and decision making.
God I miss you ... ;)
I can't duel worth a crap ... but in the MA, I will give just about anybody a good run for their money ... I guess I am more adapted to performing with a "plethora of decisions" and can last long enough for my opponent to make a bad decision before I do.
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There is almost no relationship between duelling and MA fighting except in regard to the most fundamental aspects of performing ACMs in general.
When duelling there are rules and restrictions that limit choice and freedom of action from the hanger to the merge. So, initiative tends to remain rather balanced and the longer the fight, the more restricted your options become as E states degrade, it is a game of move and counter-move. Duels are largely determined by the proper selection of those moves and counter-moves and their efficient execution relative to your opponent. Outside of that finite realm there are relatively few decisions to be made based upon almost perfect information until the final outcome. It's a fairly straightforward process.
MA fighting, on the other-hand, is an endless stream of open ended decisions that must constantly be made and acted upon. Unlike in duels, the conditions are both infinitely varied and dynamically changing with both known and unknown mitigating variables. The initiative swings wildly back and forth between yourself and your opponent(s) and unlike duelling your decisions are intrinsically based upon only partial and imperfect information. This chaotic environment produces a plethora of decisions that you must make throughout with subsequent results that are unique to ones' own mental disposition, approach to the game and relative plane performance considerations. No two people will enter a fray and perform the exact same maneuvers, make the same decisions and actions or think of the fight in the same way.
In summary, the primary focus of duels leans toward the physical stick-work of flying itself, wheras MA fighting's focus is primarily on mental acuity and decision making.
True on all accounts. I'd argue though that a pilot who has the physical stick-work of flying itself AND the SA it takes to perform in the MA is incredibly more deadly than someone who just has good SA and never fights from disadvantage.
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True on all accounts. I'd argue though that a pilot who has the physical stick-work of flying itself AND the SA it takes to perform in the MA is incredibly more deadly than someone who just has good SA and never fights from disadvantage.
Yup, as I said the application of fundamental ACM's themselves translates well across both mediums. But, on the other end of the spectrum, if you are a master of working complex engagements, endowed with great SA and decision making abilities, you should only very rarely find yourself at a disadvantage you cannot extract yourself from.
As a personal anecdotal example; if I find myself in a situation where I am forced to try to outfly someone in a SpitXVI with my Typhoon at a disadvantage, I must have seriously borked up at least one decision to get there. Knowledge of ACM's may bail me out, but the bad decision that got me there should be fatal if there is any justice and the SpitXVI isn't completely clueless.
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Yup, as I said the application of fundamental ACM's themselves translates well across both mediums. But, on the other end of the spectrum, if you are a master of working complex engagements, endowed with great SA and decision making abilities, you should only very rarely find yourself at a disadvantage you cannot extract yourself from.
As a personal anecdotal example; if I find myself in a situation where I am forced to try to outfly someone in a SpitXVI with my Typhoon at a disadvantage, I must have seriously borked up at least one decision to get there. Knowledge of ACM's may bail me out, but the bad decision that got me there should be fatal if there is any justice and the SpitXVI isn't completely clueless.
Translation, I fly high, I fly fast, I hit and if you see me I run :D
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Translation, I fly high, I fly fast, I hit and if you see me I run :D
sounds like me :D :neener:
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sounds like me :D :neener:
I said fly high, not fling being high :D
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Yup, as I said the application of fundamental ACM's themselves translates well across both mediums. But, on the other end of the spectrum, if you are a master of working complex engagements, endowed with great SA and decision making abilities, you should only very rarely find yourself at a disadvantage you cannot extract yourself from.
As a personal anecdotal example; if I find myself in a situation where I am forced to try to outfly someone in a SpitXVI with my Typhoon at a disadvantage, I must have seriously borked up at least one decision to get there. Knowledge of ACM's may bail me out, but the bad decision that got me there should be fatal if there is any justice and the SpitXVI isn't completely clueless.
...and of course, bringing up the very valid question, "Why the HELL would a Typhoon and a Spit be fighting each other?
The hoary old arena mentality is a far bigger problem then whether people want to approach combat from a mission or a dueling POV.
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...and of course, bringing up the very valid question, "Why the HELL would a Typhoon and a Spit be fighting each other?
The hoary old arena mentality is a far bigger problem then whether people want to approach combat from a mission or a dueling POV.
Anything is possible if you set up the proper angles and have a plan of attack.
http://www.speedyshare.com/files/20305833/jet.ahf (http://www.speedyshare.com/files/20305833/jet.ahf)
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...and of course, bringing up the very valid question, "Why the HELL would a Typhoon and a Spit be fighting each other?
The hoary old arena mentality is a far bigger problem then whether people want to approach combat from a mission or a dueling POV.
Depends on how well each understands the limitations of the plane he is in.
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grizz441 wrote:
Anything is possible if you set up the proper angles and have a plan of attack.
Well, even THAT's not completely true.
If you're used to roaring around at 100% throttle all sortie :huh then it becomes much harder to catch any aircraft, because you're both at or near maximum level speed during transit and the times when contact is most likely. Even an energy-buildig dive won't get you close enough to get a good bounce in before you're seen, unless the aircraft involved have a large disparity in speed. This, of course, applies when first contact is made from a tail chase aspect.
A lot of surprise is lost this way in games where there's no aircraft management to speak of. Fact was, planes that got bounced tended to be at a cruise speed, fat and happy and leaned out... throttled back... possibly with drop tanks... in a formation and thinking the other guy is watching out...
With HO or crossing engagements, though, what you say is much more true.
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Well, even THAT's not completely true.
If you're used to roaring around at 100% throttle all sortie :huh then it becomes much harder to catch any aircraft, because you're both at or near maximum level speed. Even a dive won't get you close enough before you're seen, unless the aircraft involved have a large disparity in speed. This, of course, applies when first contact is made from a tail chase aspect.
A lot of surprise is lost this way in games where there's no aircraft management to speak of. Fact was, planes that got bounced tended to be at a cruise speed, fat and happy and leaned out... throttled back... possibly with drop tanks... in a formation and thinking the other guy is watching out...
With HO or crossing engagements, though, what you say is much more true.
Last night I was at A170 and it was being attacked by a CV. I rolled a Ki-61 off of the base with 50% fuel. Entering the fray at 2k, I was quickly bounced by a Zeke. He overshot easily because he wasn't patient, he pulled a turn, I was already anticipating him turning towards his puff ack. He was in the tower quickly there after.
If I'm in an La7 when encountering Cons, I'll start with La7's first, because they...TO ME...are the most potential threat to wingmen. I'm confident in both the Ki-61 and La7, I know both planes limitations and any other piece of data that can appear on a graph.
Most of the time, the experienced stick in a ride in say a Spit 1, will probably best an "Intermediate or Beginner" level stick in a Spit 16. Why? The experienced stick will force the Spit 16 to fight "his fight" and throw the Spit 16 off of "what he should be doing".
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More utter stupidity in matchups....
Spit I vs. Spit XVI??? 1940 planes vs. 1944 planes?
Zeke vs. Ki-61?
Any of you know any classic historic matchups?
Or is it always "ueberest plane available today vs. 2nd ueberest plane available today"? Or is it only "fight that never took place"?
Arenas are STUPID.
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More utter stupidity in matchups....
Spit I vs. Spit XVI??? 1940 planes vs. 1944 planes?
Zeke vs. Ki-61?
Any of you know any classic historic matchups?
Or is it always "ueberest plane available today vs. 2nd ueberest plane available today"? Or is it only "fight that never took place"?
Arenas are STUPID.
The Zeke-5 is a Mid War ride as is the Ki-61. You're still missing the point.
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I are STUPID.
fixed
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There is almost no relationship between duelling and MA fighting except in regard to the most fundamental aspects of performing ACMs in general.
Hi Zazen,
I disagree, I think there is a strong relationship between dueling and MA fighting, unless the way you fly excludes the possibility that you will ever find yourself in a one versus one Co-E engagement and I'm sure there are many who actively seek fights with that potential. True, there is often, some disparity in initial conditions that create fights very different from the usual dueling setup, where one pilot is at some disadvantage that wouldn't exist in the more common dueling arrangements. However, there are techniques that good pilots use to minimize those disadvantages, ways to equalize energy and reset the fight for a neutral merge, at which point the skills required to win are the same skills that determine the outcome of a duel. A strong and direct relationship.
Anyone who lacks the skill set required to do well in a duel, is going to be at a disadvantage in any fight that ends up anywhere near a neutral one versus one, unless they choose to end every engagement when it reaches that point. The ability to duel well, gives the ability to finish what you start.
In fact I would say that probably the best start anyone could have, after learning the basics, would be to duel their hearts out until they are confident in their ability to do well in a one versus one similar aircraft engagement that begins with a neutral Co-E merge. Then expand their skills by beginning the fight with various forms and degree of disadvantage, before learning to capitalize on the various types of advantage. All of which can be learned most effectively with a variety of dueling setups using different initial conditions, numbers, and/or dissimilar aircraft. Again, a strong and direct relationship.
Players who avoid the school of hard knocks, and only learn how to win from a position of advantage are often unable to continue a fight once that advantage has been lost. It is all to easy for such players to become polarized into one style of fighting as a direct result of their inability to acquire skills that can be most efficiently learned through a variety of dueling setups. Dueling is simply the most efficient way to gain experience of a wide variety of combat situations in the shortest possible time, and I believe that the skills acquired during a slightly broader conception of dueling than may be the norm is of direct benefit and strongly related to what happens in the MA. Just as the check rides that real fighter pilots use during training are of benefit when they enter active duty.
Badboy
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fixed
Steve, you are slipping my good man.
I are TeH STUPID.
Now.. it is fixed. ;)
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Steve, you are slipping my good man.Now.. it is fixed. ;)
:rofl
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The Zeke-5 is a Mid War ride as is the Ki-61. You're still missing the point.
I'm familiar enough with Japanese planes to know that. But I'm also enough of a history buff to know the two weren't natural adversaries, both coming from the same country and all. (Yeah, the IJN and IJA had a bitter inter-service rivalvry, but it didn't ever come to open combat!) I think YOU'RE missing the point that Arenas are STUPID, even though I spelt it out for you... twice now.
The point I'm trying to make is, it's pretty pointLESS to explore matchups that never happened, past a pure similar-vs-similar or similar-vs-dissimilar duel setup. A neutral merge just did not happen that much in the real war, there was almost always some difference in angles, alt, situation, numbers, etc., that totally invalidates the classic duel setup, making it only suitable for "slide rule" type pilots; people who want to quote Shaw line and verse but can only apply it in a rote, specific situation.
The lessons to be learned about energy, position, coordination, etc. are all best dealt with in context of a mission or a situation.... er, unless you're studying HO passes at bomber boxes... oh no, wait, you tend to do a shallow dive into a pass like that, never mind.
What one gets from trying to learn the CONCEPTS, and applying them in combat in many situations, using Situational Awareness skills and playing the cards he's been dealt: that's how you "get good".
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In a 1 on 1 with dueling rules i can never figure out what I doing wrong. It's always the same thing. I run out of E and the opponent keeps climbing until he drops on my six. I need advice on what I'm doing wrong.
IMHO, the P-51 isn't really suited to the dueling rules because it takes away the 51's advantage over a lot of planes: speed.
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That's just ONE example.
Why would you as a P-51 driver, give up a marked speed advantage and go in co-alt, co-E, cold merge. What is this, a Renaissance Faire with airplanes?
It just makes no sense.
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I'm familiar enough with Japanese planes to know that. But I'm also enough of a history buff to know the two weren't natural adversaries, both coming from the same country and all. (Yeah, the IJN and IJA had a bitter inter-service rivalvry, but it didn't ever come to open combat!) I think YOU'RE missing the point that Arenas are STUPID, even though I spelt it out for you... twice now.
The point I'm trying to make is, it's pretty pointLESS to explore matchups that never happened, past a pure similar-vs-similar or similar-vs-dissimilar duel setup. A neutral merge just did not happen that much in the real war, there was almost always some difference in angles, alt, situation, numbers, etc., that totally invalidates the classic duel setup, making it only suitable for "slide rule" type pilots; people who want to quote Shaw line and verse but can only apply it in a rote, specific situation.
The lessons to be learned about energy, position, coordination, etc. are all best dealt with in context of a mission or a situation.... er, unless you're studying HO passes at bomber boxes... oh no, wait, you tend to do a shallow dive into a pass like that, never mind.
What one gets from trying to learn the CONCEPTS, and applying them in combat in many situations, using Situational Awareness skills and playing the cards he's been dealt: that's how you "get good".
:rofl Ok. I'm through with you. Any 2 weekers out there? Contact the Trainers and avoid the quoted person. You'll enjoy the game more.
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Through with me, why? Because I make some good points, throwing darts at your precious "arenas"? :D :D
I'll take that as pwnage. :bolt:
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Want historical match ups? Fly AVA or FSO. If not .....shaddapp. :neener:
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Through with me, why? Because I make some good points, throwing darts at your precious "arenas"? :D :D
I'll take that as pwnage. :bolt:
IDGAF about "Arenas". I enjoy having fun in this game and helping others. Whatever friendships I've made throughout the years is merely the reason I stick around. But I fly FSO and still see dweebery. You'll never get rid of it.
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Through with me, why? Because I make some good points, throwing darts at your precious "arenas"? :D :D
I'll take that as pwnage. :bolt:
Your post replying to my comment about the P-51 being at a disadvantage shows a bit of intelegence. Not a lot, as there are no HO's in the initial merge, so you take no risks from entering Co E. The main issue is that the 2k seperation limit takes away speed advantages and places a priority on turn rate and manuvering. Fact is that some planes can't turn all that well, and that some (F4F and P-40B come to mind) don't have enough engine power to make multiple succesive manuvers without taking a massive hit in speed and ability to preform the next manuver.
However, your third to last post shows seems to me like you read some pilot memoirs, read the AH2 help manual (which IS more than most, I'll give you that), but have no, or next to no, combat flying time, and are trying to elaborate on what you've read and heard.
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More utter stupidity in matchups....
Spit I vs. Spit XVI??? 1940 planes vs. 1944 planes?
Zeke vs. Ki-61?
Any of you know any classic historic matchups?
Or is it always "ueberest plane available today vs. 2nd ueberest plane available today"? Or is it only "fight that never took place"?
Arenas are STUPID.
That's your opinion, which you are entitled to. However, looking at the numbers that frequent the main arenas compared to the AvA arena, it seems that the majority of players disagree with you. The same was true for WB and AW and I think by the lower population of TargetWare is also further testiment, though there are other reasons for the low popularity of TargetWare such as the craptastic flight model that keeps people from playing there. Also, from reading the TW forums, it seems that those regular players in there really don't agree with your views as well. Not surprised by that either.
ack-ack
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See, there ya go. If you won't listen to us, at least listen to him.
Ack-Ack
great pilot
expirenced player
thoughtful in his posts
Stiglr
whiney
argumentitive
2 weeker
I think ack ack wins. Can we get an official ruleing?
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IMHO, the P-51 isn't really suited to the dueling rules because it takes away the 51's advantage over a lot of planes: speed.
So how do you fight another 51 with similar or even greater E than your 51?
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Ack-Ack wrote:
craptastic flight model
Too funny. TOO FUNNY. :lol :lol :lol
Targetware's flight model is MILES ahead of the arcade game flight model in here.
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So how do you fight another 51 with similar or even greater E than your 51?
Forcing an overshoot comes to mind.... or, if you're better or more patient than your opponent, and can get him to blow his E while you conserve yours long enough to stay flyable and then reverse the tables... then do that.
You still don't absolutely need to start with a HO merge to explore that. In fact, since you mention greater speed/E, that wouldn't be a duel to begin with, would it?
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IMHO, the P-51 isn't really suited to the dueling rules because it takes away the 51's advantage over a lot of planes: speed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EElAjwTWODI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EElAjwTWODI)
'nuff said :aok
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More utter stupidity in matchups....
Spit I vs. Spit XVI??? 1940 planes vs. 1944 planes?
Zeke vs. Ki-61?
Any of you know any classic historic matchups?
Or is it always "ueberest plane available today vs. 2nd ueberest plane available today"? Or is it only "fight that never took place"?
Arenas are STUPID.
Voss F-16 vs Adonai in his FA-18 :aok
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Allen Dickerson go away.
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Ack-Ack wrote:
Too funny. TOO FUNNY. :lol :lol :lol
Targetware's flight model is MILES ahead of the arcade game flight model in here.
If you really believe that, I have a bridge in New York that I'm selling really cheap.
ack-ack
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IMHO, the P-51 isn't really suited to the dueling rules because it takes away the 51's advantage over a lot of planes: speed.
Ohh, I dont know. To practice? See what you or it can do? See what happens if you are engaged while you are not doing 450mph?
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That's just ONE example.
Why would you as a P-51 driver, give up a marked speed advantage and go in co-alt, co-E, cold merge. What is this, a Renaissance Faire with airplanes?
It just makes no sense.
because i want to be good at flying the mustang in all types of fights. Most folks don't expect a P51 to knife fight with them. I will, hell the planes are free. i just want to come out the other side as the winner.
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because i want to be good at flying the mustang in all types of fights. Most folks don't expect a P51 to knife fight with them. I will, hell the planes are free. i just want to come out the other side as the winner.
Exactly. Sometimes "being aggressice int he Pony and knifefighting", will surprise and throw off the other con, expecting BnZ, etc.
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It just makes no sense.
Not much more than sixty-ish posts dedicated to criticizing a game you don't even play.
Why not post under your normal account, D?
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Exactly. Sometimes "being aggressice int he Pony and knifefighting", will surprise and throw off the other con, expecting BnZ, etc.
it can be surprisingly good at it as well...
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it can be surprisingly good at it as well...
Yep and most know that, if they don't try it.
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Not much more than sixty-ish posts dedicated to criticizing a game you don't even play.
Why not post under your normal account, D?
Who is this "D"?
FWIW, I do not hide behind multiple aliases. I don't need to. I post as 'Stiglr' everywhere I go.
And, I don't need to play AH to criticize it. I was playing it long before you were, and it just hasn't changed so much to where AH2 is a completely different game than AH1. To suggest that is... pure marketing.
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Who is this "D"?
FWIW, I do not hide behind multiple aliases. I don't need to. I post as 'Stiglr' everywhere I go.
And, I don't need to play AH to criticize it. I was playing it long before you were, and it just hasn't changed so much to where AH2 is a completely different game than AH1. To suggest that is... pure marketing.
But, if you dont play it, how do you know all that?
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Who is this "D"?
FWIW, I do not hide behind multiple aliases. I don't need to. I post as 'Stiglr' everywhere I go.
And, I don't need to play AH to criticize it. I was playing it long before you were, and it just hasn't changed so much to where AH2 is a completely different game than AH1. To suggest that is... pure marketing.
your bait is weak and your hook is still showing :aok
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I was rtb in a 152 a few weeks back and got jumped by Shiv, A good stick and very fun fight :salute, He was closing fast so I did a low yo yo into a vertical reverse to force a fight, he overshot but I kept my E noticing I wasnt getting a shot then went up, he came down a little early where he should have roped and he missed his opportunity, me being slower popped him when he came back up, just one mistake on his part that I noticed from dueling alot where most of the fights between like sticks gets to, scissors :rock
Edit- btw stinglr he was in a F4U I was in a 152, all it takes is 1 mistake by a good plane to lose to one that is a "Lesser"
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stglr....jeeze man. This is NOT the place for you. Dont go away mad, just go away.
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Poor, poor Allen Dickerson. He's jealous of HT's successes in the industry. Tell me Al have you figured out yet why many will not fly TW big scenarios? If not here is a hint. Other than TW shoddy FM and added non essential tedium. Think it's due in part to attitudes like yours? You know the ooh soo smug never admit to being wrong type? We have that type here also. Fortunate for us they don't get the access to twist things into there vision of correctness.
Ya see Allen, we know HT's history in this industry. You are nothing more than a jealous little troll with delusions of grandeur. You manipulate TW open source and think now your a game developer.
Either shut it or or show us your game that you have done yourself with your money and time.
Have a nice day. :aok
Edit: I hear Voss is still looking for help with TaS. I think your stellar personality would be a perfect fit for his vision of gaming. You should give him a call. :aok
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Bronk bleats, in predictable fanboi vitriol style:
have you figured out yet why many will not fly TW big scenarios?
Um, maybe because there haven't BEEN any "big scenarios" at Targetware yet? Just for one reason. There are others...
ooh soo smug never admit to being wrong
I do admit when I'm wrong... but do you fanbois? Nope, never, because we all know AH is perfect, and HT never, ever makes a mistake, right...?
You manipulate TW open source and think now your a game developer.
Where'd I say I think I'm a game developer? If you're truly interested, I can post the latest installment of that little dodge that HiTech himself tried over on alt.games.warbirds? For the record, I'm developing a Targetware MOD called Target:Corregidor, not writing, re-writing or attempting to write any core code. I'm smart enough to admit that that's well beyond my core competencies.
Either shut it or or show us your game that you have done yourself with your money and time.
You don't get to decide what I will or will not do. I will NOT "shut it" as you say, just because I know it frustrates you so bad that you have to go and do the small bit of "detective work" it takes to find my name (which I don't go out of my way to "hide"; I'm a big boy and can stand behind my opinions; care to do the same and share yours, Sherlock? I put my name in my email address, all out in the open. Your profile states, "hidden". Who's the wussy, hiding-behind-his-monitor troll, then?)
However, if you are truly interested, you'll get a chance to do your little comparison sooner than you think...
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You don't get to decide what I will or will not do. I will NOT "shut it" as you say, just because I know it frustrates you so bad that you have to go and do the small bit of "detective work" it takes to find my name (which I don't go out of my way to "hide"; I'm a big boy and can stand behind my opinions; care to do the same and share yours, Sherlock? I put my name in my email address, all out in the open. Your profile states, "hidden". Who's the wussy, hiding-behind-his-monitor troll, then?)
Hmm no idea who this is and don't really care. Taunts like a jealous kid.
He completely fails when he drops to the point of simple name calling. That immediately shows ineptitude.
I'll add this one to the "no show" list.
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I'll add this one to the "no show" list.
Pleeeeease don't add me to the "no show" list. :cry
:D
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Pleeeeease don't add me to the "no show" list. :cry
:D
:rofl
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Hmm no idea who this is and don't really care. Taunts like a jealous kid.
He completely fails when he drops to the point of simple name calling. That immediately shows ineptitude.
I'll add this one to the "no show" list.
Look at it like this: stglr is in a tiny little building all by himself looking across the street at a far larger building packed full of people he wants to be in charge of and he simply cannot grasp the fact emotionally that no one in that building has any respect for him or cares a single wit what he thinks. The problem here is that he has crossed the street and poked his head into our building and has started with his blunt oblique insults. Like I suggested previously stglr, dont go away mad....just go away.
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I'll add this one to the "no show" list.
I did that last night.
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Hey guys,
I think this link is why stiglr is here bothering us.
http://www.targetware.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=16121
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Hey guys,
I think this link is why stiglr is here bothering us.
http://www.targetware.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=16121
Oh man! that thread has mental illness written all over it.
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Hey Stiglr!!!? Sweet PC man!!!! No wonder you gripe, piss, moan because you cannot play this game.
From his Sig in that whinefest of a thread:
Windows XP Professional
Athlon 1700+ 1.4GHz
Mobo: FIC AU13 TFA42 BIOS
Allegro sound card
2GB of 2700 DDR memory
Video Card: EVGA 6200 512MB with 6.14.11.8208 drivers
Cougar HOTAS
CH Pedals
:aok
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Oh man! that thread has mental illness written all over it.
:rofl
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Hey guys,
I think this link is why stiglr is here bothering us.
http://www.targetware.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=16121
just..... wow
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See Rule #4
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fanbois dont take kindly to being called fanbois by fanbois! got it? fanboi :devil
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lol That guy does have issues. Looks like a couple on that thread have very old machines. Then again all they are doing is texting..... you can do that on a phone. :D
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None of which has bugger all to do with the fact that you can't counter most of my arguments.
You haven't presented any arguments to counter. All you have done is try and troll in an attempt to zing Dale by pathetically trying to tout how TW's inferior flight model and over all game play is somehow better than AHs and even Warbirds. No offense but it is apparent that you really don't know how to design a game, let alone any sort of "mod".
ack-ack
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..... you can do that on a phone. :D
i have a better chance of playin ah2 on my phone than he does on his 'puter :huh
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Quoted from Vlasov from the same BBS in a thread where stiglr was pissin' and moanin' about TW's damage model ...
That isn't really a damage model problem. It might be a problem with acm files, but not with the damage model. The real problem with the damage model is that all objects are made of the same, single material, and that mass is the only factor that controls damage.
LOL ... all objects are made of the same material ... I can only imagine the corners that were cut or assumptions made in their Flight Model.
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I was rtb in a 152 a few weeks back and got jumped by Shiv, A good stick and very fun fight :salute, He was closing fast so I did a low yo yo into a vertical reverse to force a fight, he overshot but I kept my E noticing I wasnt getting a shot then went up, he came down a little early where he should have roped and he missed his opportunity, me being slower popped him when he came back up, just one mistake on his part that I noticed from dueling alot where most of the fights between like sticks gets to, scissors :rock
Edit- btw stinglr he was in a F4U I was in a 152, all it takes is 1 mistake by a good plane to lose to one that is a "Lesser"
:salute Junky, I remember that one, a very nice kill from a disadvantage. Great shot too. Made me think at the time that I had better start going to the DA for some 1v1s to sharpen up. The MA can be a lot of fun, but I find I learn stuff pretty slow there.
And while killing is fun, getting better is more fun in the long run.
The last three times I've done 1v1s in the DA I've either learned some things or at least gained a better understanding of some concepts that I never would have got in the MA. Big :salute to TheForce, TnDep, and Phanta.
I'm going to try and stop by more often, hope I can catch you there Junky, Ardy ,Bone, etc, etc.
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Still, for times we don't have many flying, I have plenty to do building a dozen or more aircraft, writing scenarios, 3D modeling, solving problems and what not... the goal is in sight! I really think we'll have a Target:Corregidor launch this year, without question!!! :)
Target:Corregidor ... :rofl ... if you ever get that "load" released, it will be completely blown away by Target:Tobruk. The only one that will be flying TC will be you and anyone you pay to fly it with you.
Your overwhelming knack of pissing people off has completely alienated you from the TT dev crowd and they wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire. They won't share with you and it's not surprising why they won't.
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rofl;
Which Target:Rabaul are you referring to? The future-looking Targetware 2 version (to which all mods will upgrade to if and when it ever gets released)... or the 0.64 Target:Tobruk, which the mod leaders have forsaken to work on TW2 (and to which I plan to contribute to, if I get a moment to write some campaigns for it)?
The original TT people, while they've done a lot of good work, have personality "quirks" of their own that make it hard to work with them. :shrug: No wonder they've taken such a separatist stance from the rest of the TW mods, T:Rabaul, T4T, T:Korea and Richthofen's Skies included. It's not just me that they alienate.
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The original TT people have personality "quirks" of their own that make it hard to work with them. :shrug:
Dude, go find a mirror asap and check into it. When one person thinks many others have quirks that make them hard to deal with chances are damned good the only real quirk is the one doing the complaining.
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Guys you are feeding a troll from the TW forums who has been moderated by all of their moderators.
Instead, Stiglr we shoot each other down in this game for awhile before we cause trouble in our forums. You want to troll us here, first come to the DA with me and anyone else who signs up to baby seal slap you.
I challenge Stiglr to DA!
All other names get in line.
2.
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By the way, I'm the worst stick in the History of this game.
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Dude, go find a mirror asap and check into it. When one person thinks many others have quirks that make them hard to deal with chances are damned good the only real quirk is the one doing the complaining.
Huh ...TW must attract the "quirky personalty" types.
Allen Dickerson the sad and not as dangerous version of Paul Hinds. :neener:
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Hey guys,
I think this link is why stiglr is here bothering us.
http://www.targetware.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=16121
ZOMG that threas is teh funnay. :rofl
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rofl;
Which Target:Rabaul are you referring to? The future-looking Targetware 2 version (to which all mods will upgrade to if and when it ever gets released)... or the 0.64 Target:Tobruk, which the mod leaders have forsaken to work on TW2 (and to which I plan to contribute to, if I get a moment to write some campaigns for it)?
The original TT people, while they've done a lot of good work, have personality "quirks" of their own that make it hard to work with them. :shrug: No wonder they've taken such a separatist stance from the rest of the TW mods, T:Rabaul, T4T, T:Korea and Richthofen's Skies included. It's not just me that they alienate.
Nobody said anything about Target:Rabaul.
Target:Tobruk stopped development of it's MOD of the vintage 2005 0.64 engine back in 2008 ... supposedly it is developing for the new TW2 ... the whole "TargetWare" universe and it future is pretty much vaporware ... outside of the old and worn scenarios that use the vintage 2003 0.63 engine which I am sure is pretty much perfect when it comes to rendering flight and damage models ... :rofl
I saw some of your work for your up and coming and highly anticipated Target:Corregidor ... amateurish at best. Do you wonder why you are just about the only one that is doing anything to create Target:Corregidor ... it's because %99.99999 of the people can't stand you and your arrogance.
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Uptown,
I'm not the greatest stick but I can hold my own in most cases. I do see what you are talking about and the primary two reasons why you are running out of E is number 1 over use of flaps not pulling them in when you don't need them anymore and 2 pulling to hard on the stick making the stall limiter go off. I primary do duels over anything else because like you I want to become better in the 1v1 environment, so I can compete in more koth's.
There are times in a fight that you may say If I go straight for another sec or two then pull hard I'll get a snapshot working those angles but at the same time if you miss you already need to have your next move planned. It's very similar to chess once you learn what your doing wrong.
Come find me and I'll work with you
:salute
TnDep
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Forcing an overshoot comes to mind.... or, if you're better or more patient than your opponent, and can get him to blow his E while you conserve yours long enough to stay flyable and then reverse the tables... then do that.
You still don't absolutely need to start with a HO merge to explore that. In fact, since you mention greater speed/E, that wouldn't be a duel to begin with, would it?
Your post seems to me like you're just reading out of a book, and not speaking with any expierence. Overshoots are easier said than done, and if the other 51 is halfway decent stick, he'll BnZ you or just keep slashing you till you fall from the sky, your own skill and patients be damned.
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Your post seems to me like you're just reading out of a book, and not speaking with any expierence. Overshoots are easier said than done, and if the other 51 is halfway decent stick, he'll BnZ you or just keep slashing you till you fall from the sky, your own skill and patients be damned.
LMAO
Do you want to try? :lol
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Try what exactly? Forcing an overshoot, or BnZing?
BTW, love your avatar.
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Try what exactly? Forcing an overshoot, or BnZing?
BnZ'ing the Pony, like any 'half decent pilot would', instead of committing to an energy/angles/turning fight. I'll even flat turn at the merge if you'd like.
BTW, love your avatar.
Of course you do, it's awesome. Took me 9,001 hours in MS Paint.
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In the DA the reason you getting shot down with fantastic defection shots is because they are flying in F-3 mode and aiming the plane at you at you from the outside.
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BnZ'ing the Pony, like any 'half decent pilot would', instead of committing to an energy/angles/turning fight. I'll even flat turn at the merge if you'd like.
Of course you do, it's awesome. Took me 9,001 hours in MS Paint.
why just bnz in pony when its perfectly capable of doing more? and overshoots arent all that hard to do. just takes patience, timing, and good gunnery. if a timid bnz'er is darting down at you and u pull up and barrel roll around on their 6 and pop off a few, chances are they'll run off to something less threatening if you didnt shoot it down.
btw theres a film somewhere from badboy showing how to do it.
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why just bnz in pony when its perfectly capable of doing more? and overshoots arent all that hard to do. just takes patience, timing, and good gunnery. if a timid bnz'er is darting down at you and u pull up and barrel roll around on their 6 and pop off a few, chances are they'll run off to something less threatening if you didnt shoot it down.
btw theres a film somewhere from badboy showing how to do it.
Ponys are very capable planes, (think flaps baby), and yet most people just bnz and pick. Same with temptests. Last night for example, I spend 10 min fighting a temp, only to have him run away after he ran out of ammo, because all he was doing was bnzing. Look at Betty, she will actually fight you in a temp, and not just make a pass then extend to 3k+ and return hoping to pick you.
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Sure motherland, if you think its important enough to take it that far. Just opinions here. And are you serious about the MS paint thing :rofl ?!?
TW9, I know barrel rolls are pretty easy. All I'm saying is he saying it like "yeah, all you have to do is get him to overshoot and your set", the way you might say "oh yeah, you have to hit the 'Y' button at the end of the cheat code to unlock the bonus". Its not a guarenteed win if you get him to overshoot, but it is guarenteed that something will happen if you enter a cheat code into a game.
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Your post seems to me like you're just reading out of a book, and not speaking with any experience. Overshoots are easier said than done, and if the other 51 is halfway decent stick, he'll BnZ you or just keep slashing you till you fall from the sky, your own skill and patients be damned.
And your post seems to me to suggest you don't know sh*t about me, or my experience level. I'm pretty good at forcing an overshoot... although, if the other guy is a patient or experienced B&Zer, likely all I can hope to do is avoid his gunpasses and force a standoff we both fly away from. I'll take that outcome any day of the week.
I've survived situations in a Zero where 4 or 5 well-flown -38s, Corsairs or Stangs tried to get me. It was impossible to get a shot off myself because by the time I evaded a pass and reversed and got into position, I had to check six to find the next guy in the conga line bearing in on me. Which is why, in 1-vs.-many, you count victory by mere survival, not by how many of the horde you get.
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Sure motherland, if you think its important enough to take it that far. Just opinions here. And are you serious about the MS paint thing :rofl ?!?
TW9, I know barrel rolls are pretty easy. All I'm saying is he saying it like "yeah, all you have to do is get him to overshoot and your set", the way you might say "oh yeah, you have to hit the 'Y' button at the end of the cheat code to unlock the bonus". Its not a guarenteed win if you get him to overshoot, but it is guarenteed that something will happen if you enter a cheat code into a game.
ya i hear ya, its not easy. just watch some films to see what u have to do. once u get that down the timing eventually follows. that badboy film is pretty good reference.
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why just bnz in pony when its perfectly capable of doing more? and overshoots arent all that hard to do. just takes patience, timing, and good gunnery. if a timid bnz'er is darting down at you and u pull up and barrel roll around on their 6 and pop off a few, chances are they'll run off to something less threatening if you didnt shoot it down.
btw theres a film somewhere from badboy showing how to do it.
I'm quite aware of that, that was in fact the point of my post :)
And are you serious about the MS paint thing :rofl ?!?
Of course :)
When are you going to be in game.
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Uptown,
I'm not the greatest stick but I can hold my own in most cases. I do see what you are talking about and the primary two reasons why you are running out of E is number 1 over use of flaps not pulling them in when you don't need them anymore and 2 pulling to hard on the stick making the stall limiter go off. I primary do duels over anything else because like you I want to become better in the 1v1 environment, so I can compete in more koth's.
There are times in a fight that you may say If I go straight for another sec or two then pull hard I'll get a snapshot working those angles but at the same time if you miss you already need to have your next move planned. It's very similar to chess once you learn what your doing wrong.
Come find me and I'll work with you
:salute
TnDep
i'll catch up with ya in the next couple of days. Thanks :salute
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I've survived situations in a Zero where 4 or 5 well-flown
Uhh if they didn't get you, they weren't well flown
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Sure motherland, if you think its important enough to take it that far. Just opinions here. And are you serious about the MS paint thing :rofl ?!?
TW9, I know barrel rolls are pretty easy. All I'm saying is he saying it like "yeah, all you have to do is get him to overshoot and your set", the way you might say "oh yeah, you have to hit the 'Y' button at the end of the cheat code to unlock the bonus". Its not a guarenteed win if you get him to overshoot, but it is guarenteed that something will happen if you enter a cheat code into a game.
When I asked about a co-E or +E pony the answer was try to force overshoot. This is not really a very good answer. You are going straight to last resort.A co-E pony.... why not just out fly him instead of willfully surrendering your 6? You're right that an overshoot is a dicey thing. For my part I am glad when a person tries for the overshoot...that fight is mine.
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When I asked about a co-E or +E pony the answer was try to force overshoot. This is not really a very good answer. You are going straight to last resort.A co-E pony.... why not just out fly him instead of willfully surrendering your 6? You're right that an overshoot is a dicey thing. For my part I am glad when a person tries for the overshoot...that fight is mine.
Exactly what I was thinking Steve.
Just out fly the guy.
I think the underlying point is they can not out fly anybody; or are unwilling to even try so they can learn how to.
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Uhh if they didn't get you, they weren't well flown
Not necessarily. Perhaps I flew well, too. The fact that they didn't make mistakes (certainly losing one of five against only one would be a pretty big mistake), and that I had no chance whatsoever to claim any of them... maybe that points to everyone involved flying well, eh?
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Not necessarily. Perhaps I flew well, too. The fact that they didn't make mistakes (certainly losing one of five against only one would be a pretty big mistake), and that I had no chance whatsoever to claim any of them... maybe that points to everyone involved flying well, eh?
No
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When I asked about a co-E or +E pony the answer was try to force overshoot. This is not really a very good answer. You are going straight to last resort.A co-E pony.... why not just out fly him instead of willfully surrendering your 6? You're right that an overshoot is a dicey thing. For my part I am glad when a person tries for the overshoot...that fight is mine.
i dont think anyone would prefer to be co-anything. if someone is higher than u u really have no choice but to make them overshoot. ur not "giving" them ur six they should generally already have it. Not dead 6 but somewhere in that sector. You can evade while also luring your attacking into ur gunsights with the same risk as u would already have anyways if you were just to avoid the attack with no offensive intentions.
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i'll catch up with ya in the next couple of days. Thanks :salute
rgr
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i dont think anyone would prefer to be co-anything. ur not "giving" them ur six they should generally already have it. Not dead 6 but somewhere in that sector. You can evade while also luring your attacking into ur gunsights with the same risk as u would already have anyways if you were just to avoid the attack with no offensive intentions.
You don't always get what you prefer in the MA.
if someone is higher than u u really have no choice but to make them overshoot.
:huh
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Thor,
I would have to agree with you and Steve both . You and I used to wing a lot in the old days and we worked often "as a team" following a particular style of fighting just makes you predictable IMHO. and as a dedicated pony driver I will always do my best to fight on my terms.
Personally I have never been a very big fan of dueling. But, I can see where it could be useful. Then again I can also see dueling as just another way to make yourself think that you are the most greatest pile-it in the cartoon world.
The MA is a more dynamic situation and if you are any good then everyone around you will know it and you do not need to duel to prove it .
Everyone is a little bit better when a known good stick is up. If they do not want to be just another scalp.
Most tend to step up their game just a little. although perhaps they arent the greatest they have the stones to stick around and get some real virtual combat experiance. Very cool choice. Or..........................
Some will even log off just to avoid beeing killed. I have seen an area get pretty thin when a group of good sticks are on the hunt in a particular area.
Lame no lessons to learn.
But if the guys that log off or move to another base or area would stick around they would learn. sure they will die over and over like baby seals. But, if you take your clubbing and make your best effort then you will be rewarded with SA and eventually you will be giving the clubbings right back to the uber sticks.
1000 deaths make you a better virtual pilot. And the really good pilots didnt get that way overnight nor did they avoid very many fights.
Thor remember when Bull, Fogy and Colombo used to smite us over and over ? Ahhh those were the days. Was very rewarding to kill them back a few times. <g>
when i first got here i was amazed how piss poor the teamwork in a fight could be, the general Macho Lone Wolf Attitude that is so pervasive here explains it. i got so frustrated with the crappy drags of guys begging for help i swear i wanted to shoot many of them myself. there is so much more to being good at this stuff than what you can learn from dueling that such personal combat kills are probably no higher than 5th in what makes one a good player IMO.
it is funny though it is like a mood thing as if someone starts making efforts to work a fur-ball together it gets contagious and all of a sudden the "good guys" just start to clean up ...
funny though how so many proponents of personal combat skill over all else rationalize their arguments, like steve says i would much prefer to fly and work with a bunch of mediocre to competent pilots who communicate well and want to work together, than a gaggle of self absorbed wunder~piwets all trying to carve themselves a duel out of a fur-ball at the expense of the rest of his team.
really good virtual pilots are so easy to fight with that they make everyone else on their team around them better without hardly saying a word.
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Stiglr, I at no time in this thread said "I was an elite stick". I'm wondering why every post has a "different angle being played than the last one"?
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:huh
lol i was saying if they are higher and diving in on u what choice do u have? just sit there? turn into them and hope they arent the face shooting type and break off? I just dont see the point in evading without being offensive if the risks are the same.
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In the DA the reason you getting shot down with fantastic defection shots is because they are flying in F-3 mode and aiming the plane at you at you from the outside.
Nah i don't but that. Although F3 should be taken out of the DA imo, (but that's a different thread), the reason i'm losing is i'm losing E too fast. And from the films and talking to the ones i duel, the main reason is my improper use of the flaps most of the time. That and gunnery.
I will say this though. I went into the DA with a MA guy the other nite and beat him easily both fights. Taking the time to review films is as big a help as the seat time.
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Nah i don't but that. Although F3 should be taken out of the DA imo, (but that's a different thread), the reason i'm losing is i'm losing E too fast. And from the films and talking to the ones i duel, the main reason is my improper use of the flaps most of the time. That and gunnery.
It was previously mentioned that you should learn adapt to your opponents flying style in a duel. (or maybe they just said to be flexible... i forget)
Some players go all out on the merge and blow all their E for that quick shot.
Some do a more gentle merges holding all their energy.
Some you never know and can do either.
The first two I can adapt easily to after a duel or 3.
The third is the player that "concerns" me when I am fight 'em.
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I haven't read every post here but I've been playing AW and AH since 1996. I thought I could do ok in the MA's and in a one-on-one. I've never had any training. I've learned everything I know by flying, fighting and either winning or dieing. During the dueling tournaments I've been beat quickly in the first round each time so I posted in the Help and Training forum for some dueling help.
I spent a couple of hours last night in the TA and DA with the Widowmakers and learned more in that time than I could have (or ever have) in months (years) of MA trial and error. In particular, I learned how I most often get beat by the better sticks in the game, both in the MA and the DA. I've seen the same scenario ("move") play out against me for years and could never quite figure out how to combat it. Admittedly I don't film or watch or study films. The game takes up enough time. But after a couple of hours with some good sticks in the DA I'm beginning to think I have a chance against the "move" that always got me.
So as "artificial" as dueling is it's a valuable tool and I'm sure what I learned will go a long way toward helping me in the MA. What I've seen happening to me in both places is the same. After years it only took a couple of hours in the DA to figure at least part of it out.
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BaldEagl writes:
So as "artificial" as dueling is it's a valuable tool and I'm sure what I learned will go a long way toward helping me in the MA.
I can agree with that wholeheartedly. I suppose what I object to is the idea that a better duelist automatically means a "better virtual pilot". I'd argue that the pilot who has better SA, and can excel in "whatever situation is thrown his way" will beat a pilot who's only used to a set-piece co-alt, co-E scenario.
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After years it only took a couple of hours in the DA to figure at least part of it out.
Yep, the DA is great learning accelerator, as I said here:
Dueling is simply the most efficient way to gain experience of a wide variety of combat situations in the shortest possible time... and is of direct benefit and strongly related to what happens in the MA.
Quoted from this post:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,281422.msg3556285.html#msg3556285 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,281422.msg3556285.html#msg3556285)
Badboy
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I can agree with that wholeheartedly. I suppose what I object to is the idea that a better duelist automatically means a "better virtual pilot". I'd argue that the pilot who has better SA, and can excel in "whatever situation is thrown his way" will beat a pilot who's only used to a set-piece co-alt, co-E scenario.
What if "whatever situation" is a co-alt, co-E fight in the same plane, were the only SA decision is to run or fight?
Because of valuable time spent in the DA, I have the confidence to fight. It's obvious what you would do(if you played)...no reponce needed, thx.
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We've already gone over this, if you've been paying attention.
Duel merges at co-alt, co-energy are highly rare, considering all the other possible variables that are in play during ANY engagement. It's quite the exception.
suit yourself, and the community will thank you for your easy kills and lack of ACM execution skills due to the attitude. & unwillingness to learn :devil
yes, DA is very staged, but knowing what to do when is what you will get out of the da, which applies to everywhere.
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We've already gone over this, if you've been paying attention.
Duel merges at co-alt, co-energy are highly rare, considering all the other possible variables that are in play during ANY engagement. It's quite the exception.
Just because they are co-alt does not mean they are co-energy. Does it?
Who said you have to be co-alt? Just set an alt cap.
Who said you need to be in same planes?
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Dueling can be anything. Who said they are all co-alt/ co-E?
Dueling is used to improve by many. You can setup any scenario and repeat it till your comfortable with dealing with it.
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Well, if it's not that, it's not a duel. Semantics, yes, but there it is all the same.
It is true you can use a dueling arena as a teaching tool to set up any number of set-piece situations, or just to practice maneuver execution... but it's not actually dueling.
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Duelling is merely a way to articulate, practice and reinforce ACM technique. Naturally, that is usefull in the MA, especially if you are not already familiar with it, are out of practice, or are deficient in particular area and need some objective reinforcement. However, the MA environment requires a wide and varied set of skills beyond that used in duelling to be successful, especially on the mental side of air combat. No amount of duelling will hone your SA and ability to instantly process multiple threats, your decision making process itself in complex engagements or cooperative tactics. All of these skill-sets are required to be successful, only the MA requires all of them to a highly developed degree for true un-mitigated success...
Even my squad, known for their skill, has several people who are fabulous duelists, but who are quite poor performers in the MA. While being good at duelling is certainly an advantage in any forum of air combat, it's not the most important factor for success in the MA. Great flying ability alone is largely defensive in nature, only when combined with great gunnery and good tactics does it become a true offensive weapon. I know a lot of people who are great flyers, but bad shots and/or poor tacticians, they make for slippery targets, but very rarely are they a real threat to dominate an engagement.
The point being, there's a wide and varied skillset required to be successful in the MA, to focus on one in isolation is to take it out of its natural context and pervert it, which is kind of what duelling does in a way. Set duels are to air combat what drawing a circle is to a work of art. The circle may be a subset component of the work of art, but it is not the work of art itself. To examine one small component of a thing in isolation then attempt to extrapolate it to then encompass the whole is to kill a creature and dissect it in order to examine how it lived its life instead of just observing it live. In my opinion, the MA experience is really the closest analog we have to what true air combat was in its totality of required skills and expertise, duelling represents only an analog of a small subset or facet of that totality.
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Stiglr,
Define deuling and stop leading this audience around with "vicious circular reasoning". You blatherskite the same here as if none of us haven't read the TW boards to know you used up your welcome there with that community leveraging this same style of reasoning to feed your need as a focus of attention. In Aces High we back our assertions with action or verifiable sources for data. Get a free 2 week account and have at it with the participants of this thread. Otherwise your visit on this board is just a maintenance fix for your addiction to Internet Trolling.
I'm ashamed of you guys conceeding to follow his rabbit hole excursion. Magic mushrooms and smiling cats anyone?
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Duelling is merely a way to articulate, practice and reinforce ACM technique. Naturally, that is usefull in the MA, especially if you are not already familiar with it, are out of practice, or are deficient in particular area and need some objective reinforcement. However, the MA environment requires a wide and varied set of skills beyond that used in duelling to be successful, especially on the mental side of air combat. No amount of duelling will hone your SA and ability to instantly process multiple threats, your decision making process itself in complex engagements or cooperative tactics. All of these skill-sets are required to be successful, only the MA requires all of them to a highly developed degree for true un-mitigated success...
Even my squad, known for their skill, has several people who are fabulous duelists, but who are quite poor performers in the MA. While being good at duelling is certainly an advantage in any forum of air combat, it's not the most important factor for success in the MA. Great flying ability alone is largely defensive in nature, only when combined with great gunnery and good tactics does it become a true offensive weapon. I know a lot of people who are great flyers, but bad shots and/or poor tacticians, they make for slippery targets, but very rarely are they a real threat to dominate an engagement.
The point being, there's a wide and varied skillset required to be successful in the MA, to focus on one in isolation is to take it out of its natural context and pervert it, which is kind of what duelling does in a way. Set duels are to air combat what drawing a circle is to a work of art. It may be a subset component of the work of art, but it is not the work of art itself. To examine one small component of a thing in isolation then attempt to extrapolate it to then encompass the whole is to kill a creature and dissect it in order to examine how it lived its life instead of just observing it live. In my opinion, the MA experience is really the closest analog we have to what true air combat was in its totality of required skills and expertise, duelling represents only an analog of a small subset or facet of that totality.
I've thought the same thing for many many years now, but lacked the eloquence to put it so perfectly. Any time I tried to explain I felt I wasn't doing it any justice. Thanks for typing that out, Zazen.
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@ Buster: Zazen sums it up rather well. Although I'd add that in events or in historical, realistic missions, in addition to the MA, skills are also places where dueling skills don't necessarily help you. Situational Awareness skills are much more important.
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We've already gone over this, if you've been paying attention.
Duel merges at co-alt, co-energy are highly rare, considering all the other possible variables that are in play during ANY engagement. It's quite the exception.
And here in lies the problem with your train of thought. No good trainer (formal or otherwise) works in an artificial environment. I'm far from uber as dueler but I'm reasonably proficient teaching most basic to intermediate ACM concepts. Just about everyone I've worked with comes to me with some form of "dueling" issue and yet finds that within 5 to 10 minutes I'm working with them on fundamental concepts that are applicable under all circumstances. In the end "dueling" is the application of BFM in a combat environment with the intent to achieve a particular goal or series of goals (more accurately). Accordingly this is a case of applied knowledge based on circumstance. Being proficient at "dueling" in no way minimizes other attributes a player has cultivated.
When a player works with any of the tremendous duelers (and/or trainers) mentioned in various recent threads a teaching scenario tends to evolve since most if not all of us have received a helping hand along the way. This creates significant exposure to various concepts and strategies that are applicable in the MA under a wide variety of circumstances. I'll try and illustrate what I mean with 2 different sets of film clips. Here are 2 fights back to back (posted in training BBS earlier) that involve using dueling techniques/tactics vs +E spits.
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/film56.ahf (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/film56.ahf)
Here are two clips pulled from a recent ride along. Basically these tend to fall into two distinct categories, either how to I fly a particular plane in the MA successfully or how do I apply ACM (which I view as "dueling" ACM) in the MA.
Here is a long ago posted clip of part of a "how to fly the plane in the MA"...
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/109clip.ahf (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/109clip.ahf)
Here are the clips from this weekend where we spent some time on applying concepts in the MA...
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/film60_0314.ahf (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/film60_0314.ahf)
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/film60_1518.ahf (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/film60_1518.ahf)
The entire goal in the 2nd type of ride along is to learn to use ACM in a position of relative inferiority. Anyone can succeed from a position of advantage. Learning to be aggressive (even if not entirely successfully) from a position of inferiority increases enjoyment and allows a player a greater freedom of action...
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Stiglr,
Magic mushrooms and smiling cats anyone?
yes please :D
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i dont think anyone would prefer to be co-anything. if someone is higher than u u really have no choice but to make them overshoot. ur not "giving" them ur six they should generally already have it. Not dead 6 but somewhere in that sector. You can evade while also luring your attacking into ur gunsights with the same risk as u would already have anyways if you were just to avoid the attack with no offensive intentions.
Not nessicarily true. If they are already in their dive, aimed at where you will be, he might not have vis on you. You could turn 180 degrees, and try to escape while he's trying to correct or trying to set up again. I usually try not to fly alone incase I get bounced by a high con, or a guy in a 262, 163 or other plane with a speed advantage.
May sound kind of dweeby, but I say that if you can't win, just run. Pointless to continue a one sided fight.
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Not nessicarily true. If they are already in their dive, aimed at where you will be, he might not have vis on you. You could turn 180 degrees, and try to escape while he's trying to correct or trying to set up again. I usually try not to fly alone incase I get bounced by a high con, or a guy in a 262, 163 or other plane with a speed advantage.
May sound kind of dweeby, but I say that if you can't win, just run. Pointless to continue a one sided fight.
Once in the MA I was in a 190A5 about 14k or so, and get into a fight with a P-51D about 22k or so, well above me.
Any manuver he made "UP" I made "DOWN" -- I mirrored him. Any time he dove on me I zoomed back to him. Anytime he looped up to roll down, I dove down for speed so I could meet him in the zoom upwards.
THe fight lasted over 5 minutes, and ended with both of us on the deck. A wild ride, and I'm happy to say I won (but sad to say I never filmed it).
There's PLENTY you can do when somebody's higher and faster than you :aok
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Not nessicarily true. If they are already in their dive, aimed at where you will be, he might not have vis on you. You could turn 180 degrees, and try to escape while he's trying to correct or trying to set up again. I usually try not to fly alone incase I get bounced by a high con, or a guy in a 262, 163 or other plane with a speed advantage.
May sound kind of dweeby, but I say that if you can't win, just run. Pointless to continue a one sided fight.
There is no such thing as a "one sided fight", just one sided pilot. Paraphrasing an old fighter quote "better a spit on my 6 then no spit at all". {see above}
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I'll say BS to your face. A low P-40B agains a higher La7 is a one sided fight. And again, what point to continuing a fight you can't and won't win, when you can get away, and come back on more even terms?
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I'll say BS to your face. A low P-40B agains a higher La7 is a one sided fight. And again, what point to continuing a fight you can't and won't win, when you can get away, and come back on more even terms?
You in the la and filth in the p-40. You at any alt will lose. That's a one sided fight. :D :neener:
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I'll say BS to your face. A low P-40B agains a higher La7 is a one sided fight. And again, what point to continuing a fight you can't and won't win, when you can get away, and come back on more even terms?
It all depends on the pilot. Yes, the La 7 would have the advantage due the altitude and energy but that doesn't translate to a one sided fight.
Last night I was bounced by a higher P-51D with a very large energy advantage. Each time he would make his BnZ pass, I would break into a Low Yo-Yo into his attack. As he went back up on his zoom climb, I would level out and wait until he made his pass again and again, I would turn into his attack using a Low Yo-Yo. After the 3rd or 4th pass, instead of zooming back up, the Mustang went into a High Yo-Yo, thinking that I would level out again after I made my breaking turn and he'd be able to saddle up on his six. What he didn't realize is that with each Low Yo-Yo I was doing into his attack, I was gaining a little bit of energy each time. So when he made the mistake of going into a High Yo-Yo after his last pass, I had sufficient energy to continue my turn into his attack and follow him up as he did the Yo-Yo and was able to close on him and removed his wing for the kill.
Sometimes the best defensive tactic you can do is go on the offensive and sieze the advantage from the attacker.
ack-ack
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I'll say BS to your face. A low P-40B agains a higher La7 is a one sided fight. And again, what point to continuing a fight you can't and won't win, when you can get away, and come back on more even terms?
You in the la and filth in the p-40. You at any alt will lose. That's a one sided fight. :D :neener:
Take this further... fight me (as someone who has no experience in the P40 series) in the P40B at any altitude in the La 7.
I'll do just as well as when I was in the P51 :)
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Something I learned in the DA which made me better in the MA is reversing......In the MA you normally have quite a bit of time to reverse your opponents attack but in the DA you stay pretty close compared to your opponent so the change have to be on a split second. Grizz was telling me one day about how it was easy to hit me because I was very predictable because I wasnt changing direction when I knew I was about to get shot. Now when I se Im about to give my opponent a shot Ill make adjustments in my flight path to make it less readable. Now in the MA I can do less "dramatic" over shoots where I save more E in fights that I may be out numbered :salute
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I'll say BS to your face. A low P-40B agains a higher La7 is a one sided fight. And again, what point to continuing a fight you can't and won't win, when you can get away, and come back on more even terms?
This again illustrates the misconception prevalent in this thread. If you are plane or position dependent then your at a lose when confronted with a situation that places you at either a positional or performance disadvantage. So when confronted with a higher "superior" plane you perceive you have a "fight you can't win". The flip side is people like me who are reasonably comfortable in just about every plane in the set and only really worry about who the other guy is...not the other plane. In a P40B I'd be much more worried about a high SBD then a high La-7
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Holy crap, zazen is alive! :)
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I sort of was with you until you said this...
humble wrote:
In a P40B I'd be much more worried about a high SBD then a high La-7
Now, why is that? The SBD you could eventually simply walk away from and disengage, after he dove down to get you enough times. The La-7 is a much faster and capable plane, and a fighter besides, and would likely never offer an early P-40 a chance to escape. Nor would the P-40 ever have a chance to stay with the Lavochkin in a climb. The -40s are dogs nose up. But it might hang with a Dauntless.
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An SBD is a superb diver, and would only need one dive (and a sudden pop of dive flaps at the end) to put him on your 6 oclock, after which he would out-turn you quite handily.
You could dodge his attempt to do so, but chances are he'd have a very real chance of killing you (assuming nobody else around) before you could get away (assuming he knew what he was doing).
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Pull up into the (I'm assuming nearly vertical, if dive flap-assisted) dive, reverse and now the Dauntless is low(er) and slow, never to easily get that potential energy back. Even a P-40 would be able to deal with him then (unless, of course, the pesky rear gunner gets a bead...)
A Dauntless turns real well (they were pressed into service as fighters during the Cactus Air Force days!) and can actually mix it up in a turning fight... but a P-40 shouldn't be playing that game, if you listen to Claire Chennault's wisdom. Stay fast and slash, and use that spread of 0.50s.
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Fact, you will always be more worried about an LA over an SPD, dont be lieing in here. Stiglr its all about the pilot I used to beat people around in a KI61 that were flying Spit16s does that make the KI better then the Spit 16 no, does that make me an ubber pilot......no just more experienced then the guy in the spit 16 :salute
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I sort of was with you until you said this...
humble wrote:
Now, why is that? The SBD you could eventually simply walk away from and disengage, after he dove down to get you enough times. The La-7 is a much faster and capable plane, and a fighter besides, and would likely never offer an early P-40 a chance to escape. Nor would the P-40 ever have a chance to stay with the Lavochkin in a climb. The -40s are dogs nose up. But it might hang with a Dauntless.
The P40B has significant exploitable advantages vs the La-7. Given equal pilots the La-7 will obviously win a majority of the time, but pilots are rarely evenly matched. The SBD with altitude is however a clearly double superior plane and until E state equalizes has a significant advantage. Even when -E the SBD is a formidable plane and very capable dog fighter basically on par with the FM2/A6M/Hurricane/239 in an angles fight. So the P40B driver is faced with a difficult fight that in fact is similar to the fight the la-7 would face vs a quality stick in the P-40B. While planes like the spitfire and la-7 give you a range of pilots equal to forrest gumps box of chocolates you will very rarely find an inferior stick in an inferior plane...
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Fact, you will always be more worried about an LA over an SPD, dont be lieing in here. Stiglr its all about the pilot I used to beat people around in a KI61 that were flying Spit16s does that make the KI better then the Spit 16 no, does that make me an ubber pilot......no just more experienced then the guy in the spit 16 :salute
Actually I'm never worried much about an la-7 in anything until it shows me I need to be. I'm always worried about high cons that can hold speed and turn since they normally have good sticks. Same for A-20's, 110's and Mossies...
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Actually I'm never worried much about an la-7 in anything until it shows me I need to be. I'm always worried about high cons that can hold speed and turn since they normally have good sticks. Same for A-20's, 110's and Mossies...
I can see what you mean, I see a 109 I normally think Im about to have my hands pretty full. But when I see an LA I know its either gunna run....or have a good stick who will be able to out fight any plane. LA7 I think pwns anything below 10K other then maybe a KI84/Spit16
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humble wrote:
Even when -E the SBD is a formidable plane and very capable dog fighter basically on par with the FM2/A6M/Hurricane/239 in an angles fight.
Ain't NO Dauntless gonna hang with a Zero in a turn fight (not a properly modelled Zero, at any rate). Only chance is a large, multi-plane scrap where the SBDs can make use of Thach Weave and tail gunners, and light up a few unarmored wing fuel tanks with snapshots. Position- and angles-wise, the Zero is going to walk over a Dauntless all day and twice on Sundays.
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humble wrote:
Ain't NO Dauntless gonna hang with a Zero in a turn fight (not a properly modelled Zero, at any rate). Only chance is a large, multi-plane scrap where the SBDs can make use of Thach Weave and tail gunners, and light up a few unarmored wing fuel tanks with snapshots. Position- and angles-wise, the Zero is going to walk over a Dauntless all day and twice on Sundays.
Tell that to CPT. Stanley W. Vejtasa who took on 3 zeros at once in a SBD and downed all three(in a turn fight).
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Tell that to CPT. Stanley W. Vejtasa who took on 3 zeros at once in a SBD and downed all three(in a turn fight).
In that engagement, it was a clear case of the better pilot winning the fight. Afterwards, the Navy stuck him Wildcat in which he later downed 7 in an engagement.
ack-ack
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humble wrote:
Ain't NO Dauntless gonna hang with a Zero in a turn fight (not a properly modelled Zero, at any rate). Only chance is a large, multi-plane scrap where the SBDs can make use of Thach Weave and tail gunners, and light up a few unarmored wing fuel tanks with snapshots. Position- and angles-wise, the Zero is going to walk over a Dauntless all day and twice on Sundays.
Proof positive Ol' stigless here relies more on the AC than his ability to fly it.
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humble wrote:
Ain't NO Dauntless gonna hang with a Zero in a turn fight (not a properly modelled Zero, at any rate). Only chance is a large, multi-plane scrap where the SBDs can make use of Thach Weave and tail gunners, and light up a few unarmored wing fuel tanks with snapshots. Position- and angles-wise, the Zero is going to walk over a Dauntless all day and twice on Sundays.
I'm sorry but you are mistaken. An SBD will eat up any plane in the game (other then a D3A or Stuka) that tries to "go angles" with it.
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I'm sorry but you are mistaken. An SBD will eat up any plane in the game (other then a D3A or Stuka) that tries to "go angles" with it.
I don't understand. It seems to me the lighter and more nomble zero would have a clear advantage in this matchup.
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Anyone have the screenshot of Furball's TBM shooting down Reynolds' Spit (IIRC)?
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humble wrote:
Ain't NO Dauntless gonna hang with a Zero in a turn fight (not a properly modelled Zero, at any rate). Only chance is a large, multi-plane scrap where the SBDs can make use of Thach Weave and tail gunners, and light up a few unarmored wing fuel tanks with snapshots. Position- and angles-wise, the Zero is going to walk over a Dauntless all day and twice on Sundays.
This debate could be resolved in the DA ... :bolt:
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The SBD will handily out turn the A6M5 and has an advantage vs the lighter A6M2. The earlier zeke is somewhat stuck in the sense that its superior in the vertical but susceptible vs a good stick to being put in a position it can't power out of so relative pilot skill is a key. The A6M5 has the ability to control the fight and if flown to its relative strength (as an E fighter) will easily do so. The issue here is the tendency for a pilot in one of the rides I mentioned to view it as a "turn fighter" and to also underestimate the hitting power of the SBD...this is a bad combination.
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This debate could be resolved in the DA ... :bolt:
I fly the SBD in the TA (and the MA) fairly often. It's a great teaching plane for certain subjects (much like the Boston/A20). I don't think any of my SBD clips play under the current viewer but I'll fly a few hops later this weekend.
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humble wrote:
Ain't NO Dauntless gonna hang with a Zero in a turn fight (not a properly modelled Zero, at any rate). Only chance is a large, multi-plane scrap where the SBDs can make use of Thach Weave and tail gunners, and light up a few unarmored wing fuel tanks with snapshots. Position- and angles-wise, the Zero is going to walk over a Dauntless all day and twice on Sundays.
Let me know. I'll fly the SBD. The Thatch Weave is null and void as if the duel is a 1 vs 1, a wingman tactic should NOT be used.
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i can see, and have seen, a historic president for the dive bomber over the zero, it has advantages in G-Loading, firepower/armor, and also should be able to deploy flaps/breaks for a quick speed chop. it should both be "faster" or "slower" in an extreme dive all of which can be exploited VS. the zero in a fight ...
dive bombers tend to do well turn-fighting in WB/AH compared to what history suggests actual results wise for some reason (i suspect it mostly has to do with underestimation and/or lack of understanding by their victims) ...
however a zero pilot aware where his opponents have some advantages should not have much to worry about in the game if the FMs represent history reasonably well ...
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I remember coming across a story where a NAVY ace pilot lobbied the government to procure a fighter version of the SBD because he was so impressed with its fighting capaibilities.
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Agreed, partially. I say dueling is stupid because, if you "build your skill" only under such artificial, stilted conditions, you won't learn to be flexible enough to deal with the other situations in the arenas or in events.
There are any number of expert duelists who win most of these 1-on-1s at "twenty paces" but are helpless in any situation BUT a co-alt merge where their favorite trick always works for them. They either whine about their "unfair" disadvantage (which they can never reverse because all their fights start "fair") or they whine that they were outnumbered, or say the guy(s) who shot him down only won because of their initial advantage. Well, duh. Maybe the other guys are smarter about setting themselves up with alt or position before they ever spotted you, and had the engagement in the bag from the get go. Or maybe the whiner is dumb enough to attack a pack of planes, rather than waiting for help, or for a situation that he has a good chance to win.
None of these scenarios involve a co-alt, headon merge with no firing HO on first pass. Neither did real life, for the most part. I did read an interesting story of two guys who actually had a duel, with "seconds", during the Spanish Civil War (with the haughty Luftwaffe pilot coming off second best and lucky to get out of there only "wounded" but with his arse still attached); but these were rare.
There's more to winning a fight sometimes than rudder and stick input. Situational awareness can win you a fight before there's a fight... AND can get you out of it when you'd otherwise get yourself killed. So, IMO, SA is 10x more important than a few pet dueling moves.
Name them .
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He seems to be using SA as a fight or flight..... more towards flight.
Most of the folks here are talking SA "in" a fight.
He's not understanding what dueling is about. He calls any dueling that is not co-alt / co-E training. Actually any type of flight in any arena at any alt can be considered training.
You fly MAs only and make contact..... you should be learning. Any fight, any mix of birds, any time, any alt... it is all training / experience.
The fact remains you can compress more of it into a couple of hours in the DA than you'll see all year in the MAs.
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dive bombers tend to do well turn-fighting in WB/AH compared to what history suggests actual results wise for some reason (i suspect it mostly has to do with underestimation and/or lack of understanding by their victims) ...
In the war, how common would it be to have an SBD launched specifically for use as a fighter? In AH, it isn't that uncommon. In the war, I'd think it would be more likely to have a heavy, mission-tied SBD, at a severe disadvantage to a zero sent there to kill him. The zero is trying to kill the SBD, the SBD is trying to sink a ship. That scenario would lean heavily to the success of the zero, wouldn't it? The flightpath of the SBD would even be predictable.
Next, how many dive-bomber pilots were trained in fighter combat? And trained in how to use their dive-bombers as fighters? I honestly don'y know, but I suspect they weren't shown much in-depth training in that regard. I'd suspect they were shown some things "just in case", but were told "your first priority is the boat, let the fighters take care of the zero's..." or something along those lines.
In AH, an "experienced" stick is rarely found using a dive-bomber as a dive-bomber, at least in my experience. An experienced stick in a dive-bomber (in my experience anyway) is out for fun, using it as a fighter. Conversely, someone using the dive-bomber as a dive-bomber is often an easy kill.
Primary use alone would skew the AH vs WWII statistics for those match-ups, I believe.
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SBD's were used on multiple occasions as carrier CAP early in the war due to losses suffered by the F4F's. The leading "SBD Ace" was John Leppla who was credited with 4 kills during the defense of the Lexington (along with 3 credited to his gunner for a total of 7). The Wasps two SBD squadrons logged 7 confirmed air to air kills before it's F4F fighters scored a single pelt with Lt. RL Howard scoring the Wasps 1st aerial victory over Tulagi (A6M2) on February 8th 1942. All told the 2 "bombing squadrons" of the lady lex combined for 21.5 air to air kills during the battle of the Coral Sea.
http://books.google.com/books?id=28oev-ECY8gC&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=WW2+SBD+V&source=bl&ots=k1q1WtsKDt&sig=60-XWI_ZfuWn_IssGCvvcW6SAP0&hl=en&ei=Y5hQS-myCcyUtgf6qZ26CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CBwQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=28oev-ECY8gC&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=WW2+SBD+V&source=bl&ots=k1q1WtsKDt&sig=60-XWI_ZfuWn_IssGCvvcW6SAP0&hl=en&ei=Y5hQS-myCcyUtgf6qZ26CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CBwQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false)
*** at Edit ***
I adjusted the kill number for coral sea to remove the VB-16 scores which occurred later in 1944. However it should be noted that VB-16 flying of the "lady lex II" was credited with 10.5 kills
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i disagree, in the sense that if you are a fighter plane and get killed by a dive bomber being used as a fighter than you IMO you have made several mistakes which in my experience in other games are mostly due to overextending ones-self into the dive bombers area of advantage because the fighter pilot thought the kill would be easy and underestimated their opponent and his aircraft.
put simply, IMO:
in the video game/s, if a fighter pilot lets a dive bomber kill them in a "dog fight" it is because they were being stupid.
"."
In the war, how common would it be to have an SBD launched specifically for use as a fighter? In AH, it isn't that uncommon. In the war, I'd think it would be more likely to have a heavy, mission-tied SBD, at a severe disadvantage to a zero sent there to kill him. The zero is trying to kill the SBD, the SBD is trying to sink a ship. That scenario would lean heavily to the success of the zero, wouldn't it? The flightpath of the SBD would even be predictable.
Next, how many dive-bomber pilots were trained in fighter combat? And trained in how to use their dive-bombers as fighters? I honestly don'y know, but I suspect they weren't shown much in-depth training in that regard. I'd suspect they were shown some things "just in case", but were told "your first priority is the boat, let the fighters take care of the zero's..." or something along those lines.
In AH, an "experienced" stick is rarely found using a dive-bomber as a dive-bomber, at least in my experience. An experienced stick in a dive-bomber (in my experience anyway) is out for fun, using it as a fighter. Conversely, someone using the dive-bomber as a dive-bomber is often an easy kill.
Primary use alone would skew the AH vs WWII statistics for those match-ups, I believe.
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i disagree, in the sense that if you are a fighter plane and get killed by a dive bomber being used as a fighter than you IMO you have made several mistakes which in my experience in other games are mostly due to overextending ones-self into the dive bombers area of advantage because the fighter pilot thought the kill would be easy and underestimated their opponent and his aircraft.
put simply, IMO:
in the video game/s, if a fighter pilot lets a dive bomber kill them in a "dog fight" it is because they were being stupid.
"."
If the "fighter pilot" is as cocky as you appear to be, I'd have no problem in outwitting and using your blind faith against you, while in an "inferior craft". But you are GROSSLY underestimating what the SBD is/was capable of. Until you realize this, this thread will continue to 40+ pages.
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Remember the Ki43 in Warbirds with 200 rounds ammunition? I once landed a 5 kill sortie against F4Fs with 98 bullets still in the magazines :cheers:
Wish HTC would get around to the Ki43 for us in AH :old:
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well i would concede a couple of extreme disadvantaged exceptions, however in general i will stand with my original statement ...
mind you i too was very surprised by the "A-20" in here but that does not happen anymore ...
If the "fighter pilot" is as cocky as you appear to be, I'd have no problem in outwitting and using your blind faith against you, while in an "inferior craft". But you are GROSSLY underestimating what the SBD is/was capable of. Until you realize this, this thread will continue to 40+ pages.
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i had my longest streak ever in the ki44 in WB ...
i miss that plane in here, it has a big red Lightning Bolt painted on the side(clearly the reason for it's lethality)
;)
Remember the Ki43 in Warbirds with 200 rounds ammunition? I once landed a 5 kill sortie against F4Fs with 98 bullets still in the magazines :cheers:
Wish HTC would get around to the Ki43 for us in AH :old:
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SBD's were used on multiple occasions as carrier CAP early in the war due to losses suffered by the F4F's. The leading "SBD Ace" was John Leppla who was credited with 4 kills during the defense of the Lexington (along with 3 credited to his gunner for a total of 7). The Wasps two SBD squadrons logged 7 confirmed air to air kills before it's F4F fighters scored a single pelt with Lt. RL Howard scoring the Wasps 1st aerial victory over Tulagi (A6M2) on February 8th 1942. All told the 2 "bombing squadrons" of the lady lex combined for 21.5 air to air kills during the battle of the Coral Sea.
http://books.google.com/books?id=28oev-ECY8gC&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=WW2+SBD+V&source=bl&ots=k1q1WtsKDt&sig=60-XWI_ZfuWn_IssGCvvcW6SAP0&hl=en&ei=Y5hQS-myCcyUtgf6qZ26CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CBwQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=28oev-ECY8gC&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=WW2+SBD+V&source=bl&ots=k1q1WtsKDt&sig=60-XWI_ZfuWn_IssGCvvcW6SAP0&hl=en&ei=Y5hQS-myCcyUtgf6qZ26CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CBwQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false)
*** at Edit ***
I adjusted the kill number for coral sea to remove the VB-16 scores which occurred later in 1944. However it should be noted that VB-16 flying of the "lady lex II" was credited with 10.5 kills
Damn, beat me too it. :D
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mind you i too was very surprised by the "A-20" in here but that does not happen anymore ...
I used to have fits dealing with cobia in the A20. A tour dedicated to learning the A20 really helped :) Based on its performance in the game I am still surprised that not a single A20 pilot made ace (Daylight versus fighter) during the war in that thing.
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The A-20 is a very capable bird, however a high SBD is far far more deadly then a high A-20. Recognizing that it's a limited window and that the SBD lacks the control surface authority that some fighters have at high speed the simple truth is that a good SBD driver will in fact get his moment in the sun and that with significant +E the SBD is for that short window double superior to anything in the game with any forward firing punch.
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underestimated their opponent and his aircraft.
That is the recipe for death no matter if it's fighter on fighter or fighter on dive bomber.
Once a pilot, in an inferior aircraft, has pulled his opponent into the sweet spot for his aircraft, and taken the opponent out of their sweet spot ... a great deal of underestimation has already taken place and in most cases ... it's too late.
Most, in AH, underestimate the FM2 (along with other "inferior" aircraft) ... and when that happens ... they die a quick death
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Most, in AH, underestimate the FM2 (along with other "inferior" aircraft) ... and when that happens ... they die a quick death
Damn straight.
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Anyone have the screenshot of Furball's TBM shooting down Reynolds' Spit (IIRC)?
Was a 109.
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n277/1bronk1/hahaedit.jpg)
:rofl
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Thorism, you strike me as the type of player who believes the plane is the reason for success or failure.
A player such as this thinks "I am in X type of plane so I can win in a fight vs. a Y type of plane in a Z type of situation."
If they are in X type of a ride and come across a plane other than a Y they will not fight 'em. (unless forced to fight and when they die blame it on being in an X fighting not fighting a Y)
They limit themselves to Z types of situations and in all other situations they refuse to fight. (unless forced to fight and when they die blame it on not being in a Z situation.)
I could be wrong but I am pretty sure I am not. It is very common attitude and players such as this can be found every single day and in almost every sortie you take in AH.
Now then, we could put together a list of the top 100 pilots in AcesHigh and I am pretty sure you would be hard pressed to find a single one of them that flies like this or has that attitude.
To them it is the PILOT that wins the fight and as such it doesn't really matter (or at least not near as much) what they are flying, what the opponent is flying, or what the situation is.
Let us say i'm low, slow, and in an "inferior" plane being attacked by an opponent who has alt/e and flying a "superior" plane. I fully expect to win that fight. Heck, I am usually surprised if I don't. Vs. the majority of the players in the game I WILL win that fight.
There is SO much more to winning a fight than your planes performance or if you have alt/e.
Now don't get me wrong... I won't stall fight zekes otd in an a8 unless I HAVE to and yes I am surprised if I loose. I am fully aware of all the planes strengths and weaknesses and how to use that to my advantage and to my opponents detriment. I absolute use that knowledge in a fight. But I use my knowledge of ACM a whole heck of a lot more. I win by out thinking and out flying my opponent.
Some players "get" that.
Most do not.
There is a reason that the average player has to die almost three times to get one kill.
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Thorism, you strike me as the type of player who believes the plane is the reason for success or failure.
A player such as this thinks "I am in X type of plane so I can win in a fight vs. a Y type of plane in a Z type of situation."
If they are in X type of a ride and come across a plane other than a Y they will not fight 'em. (unless forced to fight and when they die blame it on being in an X fighting not fighting a Y)
They limit themselves to Z types of situations and in all other situations they refuse to fight. (unless forced to fight and when they die blame it on not being in a Z situation.)
I could be wrong but I am pretty sure I am not. It is very common attitude and players such as this can be found every single day and in almost every sortie you take in AH.
Now then, we could put together a list of the top 100 pilots in AcesHigh and I am pretty sure you would be hard pressed to find a single one of them that flies like this or has that attitude.
To them it is the PILOT that wins the fight and as such it doesn't really matter (or at least not near as much) what they are flying, what the opponent is flying, or what the situation is.
Let us say i'm low, slow, and in an "inferior" plane being attacked by an opponent who has alt/e and flying a "superior" plane. I fully expect to win that fight. Heck, I am usually surprised if I don't. Vs. the majority of the players in the game I WILL win that fight.
There is SO much more to winning a fight than your planes performance or if you have alt/e.
Now don't get me wrong... I won't stall fight zekes otd in an a8 unless I HAVE to and yes I am surprised if I loose. I am fully aware of all the planes strengths and weaknesses and how to use that to my advantage and to my opponents detriment. I absolute use that knowledge in a fight. But I use my knowledge of ACM a whole heck of a lot more. I win by out thinking and out flying my opponent.
Some players "get" that.
Most do not.
There is a reason that the average player has to die almost three times to get one kill.
so very true!! :salute
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It all depends on the pilot. Yes, the La 7 would have the advantage due the altitude and energy but that doesn't translate to a one sided fight.
That is true ack ack. Let me clarify... Assuming the pilot skill levels are at par, and the La-7 has an alt advantage of 2k. Since he already has a speed advantage of almost 100mph at sea level, the P-40B is in a one sided fight.
Sometimes the best defensive tactic you can do is go on the offensive and sieze the advantage from the attacker.
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you guys make a lot of assumptions ...
high numbers combined with the pervasive furballer mentality means that your average player will have a 1/3 k/d ...
lute, let me ask you this, if you take two well matched members of the AH top 100(you pick) would you put your money on the guy in the fighter or the one in the dive bomber?
would you feel pretty confident about that bet?
if you lost that bet would you be of the mind that the guy in the fighter messed up?
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you guys make a lot of assumptions ...
high numbers combined with the pervasive furballer mentality means that your average player will have a 1/3 k/d ...
back in day i managed a anywhere from a 3 to 14 k/d flying on deck or close to it in chogs, spitv's, ponies, and jugs oO
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I get killed by the "top 100" all the time. As it happens more often then not I'm in an "inferior" plane. I never feel that I lost the fight because of my chosen ride but because I got out flown.
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Both pilot skill as well as plane performance are part of the equation that determines the result of a dogfight (amongst several others). "It's all the pilot" is as overly generalizing and incorrect as "it's all the plane".
The plane is a tool we use. A good craftsman can still do astonishing things with a "bad" tool, but surely he could do more with a "better" one. An absolute beginner in any trade will most probably create nothing much of value, no matter which tool he is using. And there are tools with which a experienced craftsman can really create a masterpiece, but which may be too difficult to use for a beginner to utilize to their true potential.
With planes ist just the same.
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I have a tool.
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(http://www.buzzlife.com/forums/images/smilies/porno.gif)
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Both pilot skill as well as plane performance are part of the equation that determines the result of a dogfight (amongst several others). "It's all the pilot" is as overly generalizing and incorrect as "it's all the plane".
The plane is a tool we use. A good craftsman can still do astonishing things with a "bad" tool, but surely he could do more with a "better" one. An absolute beginner in any trade will most probably create nothing much of value, no matter which tool he is using. And there are tools with which a experienced craftsman can really create a masterpiece, but which may be too difficult to use for a beginner to utilize to their true potential.
With planes ist just the same.
+1 Very true. I'd say however, 'the pilot' dictates a higher percentage in the majority of the plane set. The extremes, i.e. Fw190A8/Zeke is where pilot becomes less of a factor and plane becomes more.
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A young photographer walks into a camera shop. He as several examples of his work tucked under his arm and carrying an old pin hole box camera. He asks the shop owner at the counter if buying new camera would make his photos better. He then shows some of his work to the shop owner.
The shop owner looks at the photos. Pauses. Turns to his friend who is a master photographer and asks what do you think while showing the photos to him.
The master photographer replies...These photos are beautiful...sharp...and perfectly exposed....Why do you need a new camera.
The young photographer replies...I thought a newer camera would make my pictures even better.
The master replies....Well, a new camera might make it EASIER but a new camera won't make your pictures better. It's not how fancy your equipment is...it's how you use it that counts.
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It's not how fancy your equipment is...it's how you use it that counts.
That is what my wife said, but I still think she is lying to me to make me feel better.
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Both pilot skill as well as plane performance are part of the equation that determines the result of a dogfight (amongst several others). "It's all the pilot" is as overly generalizing and incorrect as "it's all the plane".
If you read my post I said that I am aware of all the various strengths/weakness of the planes in AH and use that knowledge.
I never said it is 'all' the pilot.
Sure the plane matters.
Pilot matters more.
Average pilot in a Spit 16 vs. a good pilot in a p40E.
Who wins that fight?
you guys make a lot of assumptions ...
high numbers combined with the pervasive furballer mentality means that your average player will have a 1/3 k/d ...
lute, let me ask you this, if you take two well matched members of the AH top 100(you pick) would you put your money on the guy in the fighter or the one in the dive bomber?
would you feel pretty confident about that bet?
if you lost that bet would you be of the mind that the guy in the fighter messed up?
Furballer mentality?
So now you tossing out another b.s. excuse I have to rip to shreds only to have you spew another bunch of.... (repeat ad infinitum)
I will give you another reason why players such as yourself will only be "meh" at best in a fight.
Excuses.
I tried to train a player once. Spent an hour or more with them. Whenever they screwed up they had an excuse ready as to why they failed. It was never "their" fault. There was a "reason" they blew the move, or crashed, or lost position, etc, etc.. Said player is still pretty piss poor as a fighter and it has been a year or two. A player like this will never learn. You remind me of this player.
I will happily fight any top 100 stick flying a zeke in my D3A Val.
And yes, I would be fairly confident of that bet.
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How much "attacking from a position of inferiority" do you see in the MA? I don't see much. I see a lot of running as soon as the advantage is lost.
I always attack unless attack is impossible. As David Tennants Dr Who would say "More fun that way".
BUT, I will run if the situation is "if I don't I'm certainly screwed" and when I gain a good seperation I turn back and fight because once you start something you finish it :t
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This is my 1st hop this morning, just so happened we had a carrier and a bit of red in the same area so I rolled an SBD. All in all this a pretty typical sortie for me in the SBD (or anything for that matter). In the end my gunnery and SA just don't quite match up to my "flying". It does however give a feel for what the SBD is capable of (or more in better hands). I put rounds in everything but the mustang and had 3 decent cockpit shots I just couldn't quite convert (going from memory since I didn't look at the clip after. If there is anything odd power wise in the 1st one on two it was due to my hotas USB cutting out 2 or 3 times mid fight. I plugged it into my monitor USB instead of digging my powered hub out this AM. In then end given the hills and low E/alt the spitty kind of forced himself on me and I got a bit target focused on him feeling that if I could finish him before the others could get wood on me I'd be able to hold them off and rebuild some vertical capabilities...
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/SBDinthemorning.ahf (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/SBDinthemorning.ahf)
What I think is important as it relates to this thread is that "dueling" involves more then the merge. The really good duelers dont win every merge but they can often deny shots, stabalize a bad situation and work to build an advantage back up. These skills all come into play in the MA as well....
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so we've established that the average pilot in AH is nothing to be afraid of ...
what you fail to get lute is that if you let a pilot in a plane that cannot do anything required for air to air combat 1/2 as well as your plane than you messed up ...
if the game is such than a player can get around that reality by being a better player than it has big problems.
i know people out there can shoot 100% free throws playing as Shaq in NBA Live Whatever,
however that VIDEO GAME therefore can not be called a SIM. can it?
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if you let a pilot in a plane that cannot do anything required for air to air combat 1/2 as well as your plane than you messed up ...
Thanks for confirming that my earlier post was spot on and I have you pegged.
Enjoy your "meh"ness.
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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so we've established that the average pilot in AH is nothing to be afraid of ...
what you fail to get lute is that if you let a pilot in a plane that cannot do anything required for air to air combat 1/2 as well as your plane than you messed up ...
Everyone messes up, a least a little bit, every minute that they fly. (Or do anything else in life.) Victory goes to him who messes up the least.
if the game is such than a player can get around that reality by being a better player than it has big problems.
Your grasp of reality is perhaps faulty. In every fight there are segments where relative plane strengths simply do not matter, or even stack up in counter-intuitive ways. Consider....A SpitXVI and a 190 A8 are both going 400mph. Theoretically the Spit holds every dogfighting "advantage" in this contest. It turns much better, climbs and accelerates much better, and retains airspeed in turns better. However until the fight slow significantly, the XVI's turn performance advantage simply does not exist, because both are well above corner speed and G-limited. In this circumstance the XVIs E-retention in maneuver can become a weakness, the A8 will be able to decelerate to its corner velocity sooner precisely because it bleeds E like a stuck pig under Gs.
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IT did? How so? He won't duel anyone in this game with more experience then himself (Clue #1). He has lost every Ad Hominem "discussion" he has started/entered on this BBS (Clue #2).
But, two facts remain.
1.) You have an antiquated PC, so you have zilch to say about a game you do not/cannot play.
2.) You're even hated at Targetware.
Even the Sad Pandas feel bad for you. But we don't.
Couldn't have said it better myself. :aok
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BnZs says:
Consider....A SpitXVI and a 190 A8 are both going 400mph. Theoretically the Spit holds every dogfighting "advantage" in this contest. It turns much better, climbs and accelerates much better, and retains airspeed in turns better.
You don't factor roll rate into the equation. At 400 mph, :O that's likely going to factor more than turn, as both aircraft are too fast for high-G turns. Spit roll rate is mediocre for the entire family, while all FW190s excel at it.
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BnZs says:
You don't factor roll rate into the equation. At 400 mph, :O that's likely going to factor more than turn, as both aircraft are too fast for high-G turns. Spit roll rate is mediocre for the entire family, while all FW190s excel at it.
Erm clipped winged spits roll quite well.
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....for Spits.
And if the Spit VIII were so successful... why did the clipped wing disappear on the later X+ marks?
At any rate, the scenario doesn't state Spit 8, so.....
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He won't duel anyone in this game with more experience then himself (Clue #1).
He and I sort of dueled once. We dueled in that we were both aware of each other, it was 1v1, and we fought. I was only able to use one hand for part of the fight because I was on the phone and needed to write some stuff down, but we fought 1v1, with no other planes nearby.
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See Rule #4
Actually what it proves is ignorance on the part of the poster (and you). It is a documented fact that the SBD scored 7 air to air kills (on wasp) before an F4F scored a single kill. Further that the 1st air to air kill recorded by a US carrier born plane during the Guadalcanal campaign was by an SBD over an Am62. Further that the SBD was flown as fighter engaged in defensive CAP by both carriers at Coral Sea and that those SBD's accounted for 21+ enemy fighters. So in the real world the pilot outshines the plane. This is also reflected in the Hawk75's exceptional kill ratio in french service (220+/19), the P-39s exploits in Russian hands and the unparalleled success of the Brewster in Finnish service.
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What does any of that have to do with the original comment thorsim posted?
He's talking about sim quality vs. players just gaming their game; you're talking about historical aircraft performance.
Apples? Oranges? Relevance check?
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so we've established that the average pilot in AH is nothing to be afraid of ...
It would pretty much be common sense that the average player is nothing to be afraid of to an above average player.
Generally you do get better by moving on to more challenging things once you've mastered training wheels. You put lead weights on your ankles, so to speak. That goes for anything. In Aces High the way of doing this is to use more 'outdated' or 'obsolete' aircraft.
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What does any of that have to do with the original comment thorsim posted?
He's talking about sim quality vs. players just gaming their game; you're talking about historical aircraft performance.
Apples? Oranges? Relevance check?
There is no "gaming the game" as it relates to ACM. Planes have relative strengths and any set of relative positions present options for both sides. As it relates to "dueling" a player learns to exploit both or either. Any comment that a "superior pilot" is gaming the game and that such things didn't occur "in the real world" is pure ignorance. In the real world you didn't get to pick your plane, or your mission or avoid combat because you were out numbered or "out planed". So the pilots who flew those "inferior" planes learned to rely on the most important weapon they had..."shoulder mounted, weighs 4.7 pounds"...the mind of a fighter pilot :airplane:
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there is a BIG part of the fight that happens well before any ACM even comes into play. It is strategic awareness that happens as you enter local awareness which happens before you enter combat situational awareness. Seems to me some people forget about that aspect of air combat...in the MA it is vital if you judge your own success by survival first then who can cut cheeze second. In Dueling it has no role because rulz dictate how the fight is entered.
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there is a BIG part of the fight that happens well before any ACM even comes into play. It is strategic awareness that happens as you enter local awareness which happens before you enter combat situational awareness.
But if you use this and avoid getting jumped by a pack of bad guys, you are a runner. Shame on you!
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But if you use this and avoid getting jumped by a pack of bad guys, you are a runner. Shame on you!
yeah but thats a part of the game that is easily dismissed.
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But if you use this and avoid getting jumped by a pack of bad guys, you are a runner. Shame on you!
Steve other then a bit of teasing I can't recall ever having a cross word with anyone who "flies smart". I love running into you, skat, tango, akak or any of the other quality "smart" flyers.
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Humble wrote:
There is no "gaming the game" as it relates to ACM
Of course there is. If the game isn't modelled faithfully, then there are any number of game tricks you can pull that will give you an advantage... but if you did the same in a different game that's simply modeled differently... OR in an accurate sim... then perhaps that wouldn't work.
And @ Yeager: if you retreat from a situation where you're outnumbered or know that your chance of survival is slim, that's not necessarily "running"; that's flying smart. It's STAYING when you know you're gonna die that's gaming the game.
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Humble wrote:
Of course there is. If the game isn't modelled faithfully, then there are any number of game tricks you can pull that will give you an advantage... but if you did the same in a different game that's simply modeled differently... OR in an accurate sim... then perhaps that wouldn't work.
And @ Yeager: if you retreat from a situation where you're outnumbered or know that your chance of survival is slim, that's not necessarily "running"; that's flying smart. It's STAYING when you know you're gonna die that's gaming the game.
you sir are proving to be a clueless idiot. Please show any single ACM component in the film clip i posted above that is a "trick"...
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And @ Yeager: if you retreat from a situation where you're outnumbered or know that your chance of survival is slim, that's not necessarily "running"; .
It is in this game, for the most part.
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Please show any single ACM component in the film clip i posted above that is a "trick"...
Never said you used any. Nor did I aim any comment at YOU specifically. I was talking about ACMs in general and both games and sims in general. Please read what I wrote again, without fanboi glasses on and 'hate stiglr' contact lenses ... and maybe you'll grok the point I was making.
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No "fanboi" anything. I've found that this game (and most flight sims) are reasonably accurate with regard to the translation of ACM concepts. While any given component of an FM might be out of sync the realities of relative E state, position and plane capability when viewed from the concept of superior or double superior play out correctly. A pilot who understands the relative performance envelopes of the two planes and can reasonably judge relative lift vector vs position at any point in a fight can employ the concepts outlined by Shaw and others with a high degree of success. While we all may argue about the authenticity of a specific flight model or component there of the concepts play out correctly. I am unaware of any trickery or gameable exploit in AH with regard to any plane. I can take an A-20 or SBD and put up a reasonable fight vs any pilot in any plane, this is exactly what should be expected if reasonably competent ACM is employed. I can force the other pilot to either be patient and manufacture a solid advantage or I can look to entice a premature move. I can also cede the advantage early so to present him with his maximum potential before he has eroded my options completely...therefor presenting the potential to surprise him by slightly altering the context of the engagement. In the end I can make him fly a quality to fight to earn my pelt...this is not in any way gaming the game or dependent on a quirk of the game. In fact it is not dependent on any one sim and is transferable across any of them.
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double post
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Stglr, youre nuts.
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Stig can't find his arse with both hands!
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It would pretty much be common sense that the average player is nothing to be afraid of to an above average player.
Generally you do get better by moving on to more challenging things once you've mastered training wheels. You put lead weights on your ankles, so to speak. That goes for anything. In Aces High the way of doing this is to use more 'outdated' or 'obsolete' aircraft.
Not feared, but acknowledged at the very least. An average player is competition to another average player.
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Never said you used any. Nor did I aim any comment at YOU specifically. I was talking about ACMs in general
All you have done is talk about things in 'general'. You haven't made a specific point or used any example to prove anything yet. I'm going to assume you are completely full of it until you prove otherwise.
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FYI : wasn't talking about "gaming" anything however much like other things no amount of "you plane doesn't matter at all" yelling i hear, i assure you it does ...
for the example of turning at 400mph nonsense that was posted ...
a) fights rarely stay above 300mph
b) even then some advantages are very apparent at 400mph and the pilot who works the fight to his "AIRCRAFT'S ADVANTAGES" is the one who will usually (almost always) emerge victorious ...
c) your aircrafts advantages and disadvantages define how you SHOULD approach the fight, if the game allows you to ignore those advantages and disadvantages it is not a very good sim IMO, and a pilot who insists such advantages and disadvantages do not matter sounds unreasonably boastful.
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And @ Yeager: if you retreat from a situation where you're outnumbered or know that your chance of survival is slim, that's not necessarily "running"; that's flying smart. It's STAYING when you know you're gonna die that's gaming the game.
I am a proponent of egressing when the situaion clearly calls for it. The act of endless circular noobal hordling furballing left my bones years ago so I tend to favor flying smart these days. Its the challenge (oooops...bad word lately) of killing and surviving that gets me motivated.
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b) even then some advantages are very apparent at 400mph and the pilot who works the fight to his "AIRCRAFT'S ADVANTAGES" is the one who will usually (almost always) emerge victorious ...
So your agreeing... it is the pilot.
I am a proponent of egressing when the situaion clearly calls for it. The act of endless circular noobal hordling furballing left my bones years ago so I tend to favor flying smart these days. Its the challenge (oooops...bad word lately) of killing and surviving that gets me motivated.
Not challenging yourself is a challenge?
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Put Mario Andretti in a Yugo and he isn't going to win a race no matter how skilled he is.
Pretending "it's only the pilot" is a pretentious claim (one that serves to boost many an ego, IMO). It's not the plane either. It's how a pilot uses a plane. The plane amplifies the pilot (whatever his skill level may be).
Spits (in this game) amplify it a LOT, hence a lot of no-skill pilots get plenty of kills.
Put a pilot in a plane that stalls out when you bank 15 degrees, and another pilot in a plane that never stalls or spins, and I promise you it's not just the pilot skill that determines the fight.
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Not challenging yourself is a challenge?
If I wasnt challenged on some level every time I play the game then I would not pay to play. Being bored makes Yeager sleepy :joystick:
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Put Mario Andretti in a Yugo and he isn't going to win a race no matter how skilled he is.
Pretending "it's only the pilot" is a pretentious claim (one that serves to boost many an ego, IMO). It's not the plane either. It's how a pilot uses a plane. The plane amplifies the pilot (whatever his skill level may be).
Spits (in this game) amplify it a LOT, hence a lot of no-skill pilots get plenty of kills.
Put a pilot in a plane that stalls out when you bank 15 degrees, and another pilot in a plane that never stalls or spins, and I promise you it's not just the pilot skill that determines the fight.
Ayrton Senna placed 2nd at Season's End in a Cosworth powered Honda/McLaren, in 1993. Bad analogy to have used Krusty. Hell, Hudson won 3 NASCAR Championships too. Never rule the underdog out, when you do, you'll get caught off guard.
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Ayrton Senna placed 2nd at Season's End in a Cosworth powered Honda/McLaren, in 1993. Bad analogy to have used Krusty. Hell, Hudson won 3 NASCAR Championships too. Never rule the underdog out, when you do, you'll get caught off guard.
hehe you guys will post anything to be argumentative won't you ...
never in the annals of BBS history have so many gone so far off topic to make so few points ...
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hehe you guys will post anything to be argumentative won't you ...
never in the annals of BBS history have so many gone so far off topic to make so few points ...
Never in the annals of Aces High history will you ever do anything for the Community. All you do is whimper and master the Ad Hominem. Let me know when ou wish to Duel and improve your skills.
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Never in the annals of Aces High history will you ever do anything for the Community. All you do is whimper and master the Ad Hominem. Let me know when ou wish to Duel and improve your skills.
maybe when i finish a tour when my "killed by" is as high as my "kills in" ...
or when i finish a tour with a k/d lower than 2 ...
or some other numbers that bad, that would make me feel i am underperforming ...
maybe then i will feel the need ...
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Ayrton Senna placed 2nd at Season's End in a Cosworth powered Honda/McLaren, in 1993. Bad analogy to have used Krusty. Hell, Hudson won 3 NASCAR Championships too. Never rule the underdog out, when you do, you'll get caught off guard.
No, quite an apt analogy. A Hudson is hardly a Yugo. More like a Tempest compared to a A6M2.
You're throwing oranges into my apple comparison.
Just to refresh your memory, a Yugo:
(http://davidhb1968.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/800px-yugo_zastava_skala_55.jpg)
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You're throwing oranges into my apple comparison.
Just to refresh your memory, a Yugo:
More of a lemon ...
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from: Yeager on Yesterday at 11:05:57 PM
I am a proponent of egressing when the situaion clearly calls for it. The act of endless circular noobal hordling furballing left my bones years ago so I tend to favor flying smart these days. Its the challenge (oooops...bad word lately) of killing and surviving that gets me motivated.
So your agreeing... it is the pilot.
Not challenging yourself is a challenge?
His 'smart flying' in just like Chalenge's 'smart flying', which is just another word for timid flying. I've only seen two moves from Yeager...HO on merge and the 2nd move is running like Hell for the nearest friendly or ack after HOing on the merge. I can honestly say, I have not seen a more timid and worthless opponent in the MW arena than Yeager/Badger/Dawson/Sharps. If he knows who he's going up against, by his own admission, if will not engage at all if there is even a remote chance of him being shot down. He claims he runs like that as to not feed the other guy's 'ego' but we all know it's because he's timid.
ack-ack
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No, quite an apt analogy. A Hudson is hardly a Yugo. More like a Tempest compared to a A6M2.
You're throwing oranges into my apple comparison.
Just to refresh your memory, a Yugo:
(http://davidhb1968.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/800px-yugo_zastava_skala_55.jpg)
Gimme the A6M2 any day of the week. Typhoons and Tempests can only do one thing well, eliminate "it" and the field has become leveled. I play this game still for one reason, to challenge myself. I could EASILY hop in a Tempest, etc and loiter above the fight and cherry pick. To me, doing that takes zilch in the "skill" dept. There is no challenge for me doing that. Am I saying I have "elite skills", absolutely not. Do I question people who "do this"? Absolutely. But I don't air it out on these BBS or on 200, or in game at any time.
Since joining the WidowMaker's, I've increased my skill set. I always had the skills, but in my previous endeavors within AH, was never able to take advantage of them. But, I still push myself in the "inferior rides". The only time I roll an La7, is from a vultched field.
Back to my analogy. Ayrton Senna used his skills and finesse, which eclipsed all but Prost in that season. Prior to the season, all Media didn't have him winning a single race in that car.
But this thread lost it's validity about 15 pages ago.
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Gimme the A6M2 any day of the week. Typhoons and Tempests can only do one thing well, eliminate "it" and the field has become leveled. I play this game still for one reason, to challenge myself. I could EASILY hop in a Tempest, etc and loiter above the fight and cherry pick. To me, doing that takes zilch in the "skill" dept. There is no challenge for me doing that. Am I saying I have "elite skills", absolutely not. Do I question people who "do this"? Absolutely. But I don't air it out on these BBS or on 200, or in game at any time.
There are strategic elements in the game other than ACM that are worth being involved in. Winging with a guy or two, flying somewhere you are vastly outnumbered, and killing as many as you can by working together and controlling the fight through good wingman tactics. This is very fun and challenging in the sense of teamwork, coordination, and timing. Fights are ever changing and no two are the same. New obstacles are always thrown your way as soon as you think you have a handle on it.
Tbh, I could sit in an inferior ride and reverse high bogeys trying to pick me all day long, mindlessly doing the exact same move I learned long ago. This gets boring, even though it is oh so satisfying when you kill them.
Still though, I think good winging is something that is not well understood, and poorly executed in the game. It's not very often you run into a pair of cons that are meshing together so well it seems as soon as you even have a chance to get guns on one of them, the other has gun solution on you. I'd like to think me and my squaddies are good at it when we focus in, but we probably aren't in comparison to the max potential effectiveness of proper winging. This is an aspect of the game I'd like to get a lot better at.
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Humble wrote:
Of course there is. If the game isn't modelled faithfully, then there are any number of game tricks you can pull that will give you an advantage... but if you did the same in a different game that's simply modeled differently... OR in an accurate sim... then perhaps that wouldn't work.
And @ Yeager: if you retreat from a situation where you're outnumbered or know that your chance of survival is slim, that's not necessarily "running"; that's flying smart. It's STAYING when you know you're gonna die that's gaming the game.
"... STAYING when you know you're gonna die that's gaming the game..." :rofl :rofl :rofl
wow first off you don't really die, so what it the point of "running"? or as you put it "flying smart", please tell me....so you wont virtually die? so you wont ruin your "score".... :rofl :rofl
you keep flying "smart"( :rofl)
when you want to learn how to really fight, you let me know, I will be more then happy to show you the error of your ways.
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I've only seen two moves from Yeager...HO on merge and the 2nd move is running like Hell for the nearest friendly or ack after HOing on the merge.
:neener:
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There are strategic elements in the game other than ACM that are worth being involved in. Winging with a guy or two, flying somewhere
Still though, I think good winging is something that is not well understood, and poorly executed in the game. It's not very often you run into a pair of cons that are meshing together so well it seems as soon as you even have a chance to get guns on one of them, the other has gun solution on you. I'd like to think me and my squaddies are good at it when we focus in, but we probably aren't in comparison to the max potential effectiveness of proper winging. This is an aspect of the game I'd like to get a lot better at.
You guys have been doing this....it seems alot of late..........bullies :D :D
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making an assumption here but if that was you and your boys in the 262s last night in LWB grizz, well done and thanks for the fun
+S+
t
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There are strategic elements in the game other than ACM that are worth being involved in. Winging with a guy or two, flying somewhere you are vastly outnumbered, and killing as many as you can by working together and controlling the fight through good wingman tactics. This is very fun and challenging in the sense of teamwork, coordination, and timing. Fights are ever changing and no two are the same. New obstacles are always thrown your way as soon as you think you have a handle on it.
Tbh, I could sit in an inferior ride and reverse high bogeys trying to pick me all day long, mindlessly doing the exact same move I learned long ago. This gets boring, even though it is oh so satisfying when you kill them.
Still though, I think good winging is something that is not well understood, and poorly executed in the game. It's not very often you run into a pair of cons that are meshing together so well it seems as soon as you even have a chance to get guns on one of them, the other has gun solution on you. I'd like to think me and my squaddies are good at it when we focus in, but we probably aren't in comparison to the max potential effectiveness of proper winging. This is an aspect of the game I'd like to get a lot better at.
I've been in alot of squads and the 412th was the best i've had the pleasure to fly with doing the wingman thing. Saber and MtMan are hell with wings too.
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for the example of turning at 400mph nonsense that was posted ...
a) fights rarely stay above 300mph
*Yawn* Of course they don't stay that fast. The whole idea was dumping speed at an opportune time. The point was that a normal "disadvantage" (bleeding E badly in a high-G turn due to high wingloading) can be used to make that pursuing Spitfire pop out in front and go *boom*.
I'm beginning to wonder if you understand *anything* about ACM except high speed dives on unaware targets.
c) your aircrafts advantages and disadvantages define how you SHOULD approach the fight, if the game allows you to ignore those advantages and disadvantages it is not a very good sim IMO, and a pilot who insists such advantages and disadvantages do not matter sounds unreasonably boastful.
Nothing allows you to "ignore" plane's advantages. You are not going to make your Fw-190 sustain a higher rate of turn than a Spit through sheer force of will, you are not going to make a P-47 out-climb a K4 by thinking light thoughts. What you don't know enough about ACM to understand is that good sticks who win mismatches like this ARE flying their planes to their strengths, or at least towards parts of the envelope where they are not badly out-matched. I will give you a clue: 90% of the time someone claims they were "out-turned" by a vastly less maneuverable plane, what the other pilot actually did was simply manage the geometry of the fight and/or his airspeed better.
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Running is more than horizontal separation. It is also vertical separation by using a superior plane's climb. With the numbers in the arenas now, especially in a few key areas where they mass, its hard to go out and fight without getting jumped. Thats why today, so many people prefer being careful.
I prefer the fight. Even if it gets 2-3 on one, its the challenge that brings me back. You cant make people fly the way you want, or what you want. So you adjust you're style to fight them. Either by being careful, fast, or climbing like a raped ape, or by flying defense and milking them dry and killing them.
I dont mind hearing the wheels come up, it saves a long boring ride home. If higher scores meant that HTC sent you checks each camp, maybe i'd be interested, but for now I'll put up with all that goes on, in hopes the next flight will be worth remembering.
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I've been in alot of squads and the 412th was the best i've had the pleasure to fly with doing the wingman thing. Saber and MtMan are hell with wings too.
Saber and I don't fly as wingmen though. We just fly as two lone-wolves somewhat near each other. To find us working "together" as a "team" is an incredible rarity. We just have no interest in it.
There's no way one of us will jump into the other guys fight. 99% of the time, if one of us in a 1 on 1 and another friendly jumps in we'll break out of the fight ourselves, until the friendly dies and we can re-enter 1 on 1. About the only time I won't break out like that is if I think I'll get killed in the process, or if I'm seconds from a shot solution.
As far as coordinated wingman tactics, about once per month we'll actually decide to fly as a coordinated pair. That generally lasts until we see the bad guys, and then we just say "Ah, screw it, you're on your own. Holler if you get swarmed, and I'll try to help you get out of it". We probably "wing up" for 20-30 minutes per month, and 99% of that time there will be no red guys in sight.
If one of us gets swarmed, then we'll break out the hard-core wing man tactics. That amounts to one of us saying "Lol, you moron! Suppose you could use a hand, eh? Which one is the biggest threat? Ok, I'm on him". At which time it turns into each of us fighting as an individual, just doing so right next to the other guy. We'll communicate as we do it, giving check six's, status updates, etc, but we don't take teamwork seriously at all.
To compare us in any "wingman" discussion just isn't very nice to those guys that actually make an effort to work together. Our wingman tactics are terrible!
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Soooo wingless men? :D
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Saber and I don't fly as wingmen though. We just fly as two lone-wolves somewhat near each other.
I have always referred to this as loose duece winging...basically just adding another set of eyes to the local SA coupled with mutual support when necessary. It is the most effective method of winging in game I have come across. Just as long as both elements are capable of basically taking care of themselves. The historical USAF approach of assigning the lessor skilled pilot to watch the leads tail just never worked well in game for me. All that approach serves is to give the pursuer a slightly closer tail to shoot at.
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you suggest you think i don't know things when the average stats suggest you are the inferior player ...
you do realize the M in ACM does not stand for moxy don't you ?
*Yawn* Of course they don't stay that fast. The whole idea was dumping speed at an opportune time. The point was that a normal "disadvantage" (bleeding E badly in a high-G turn due to high wingloading) can be used to make that pursuing Spitfire pop out in front and go *boom*.
I'm beginning to wonder if you understand *anything* about ACM except high speed dives on unaware targets.
Nothing allows you to "ignore" plane's advantages. You are not going to make your Fw-190 sustain a higher rate of turn than a Spit through sheer force of will, you are not going to make a P-47 out-climb a K4 by thinking light thoughts. What you don't know enough about ACM to understand is that good sticks who win mismatches like this ARE flying their planes to their strengths, or at least towards parts of the envelope where they are not badly out-matched. I will give you a clue: 90% of the time someone claims they were "out-turned" by a vastly less maneuverable plane, what the other pilot actually did was simply manage the geometry of the fight and/or his airspeed better.
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you suggest you think i don't know things when the average stats suggest you are the inferior player ...
you do realize the M in ACM does not stand for moxy don't you ?
to think you can judge someone by there "stats" and think they are an inferior stick....well, shows you got a long way to grow.
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who is calling who inferior ...
besides the stats that is ...
to think you can judge someone by there "stats" and think they are an inferior stick....well, shows you got a long way to grow.
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you suggest you think i don't know things when the average stats suggest you are the inferior player ...
you do realize the M in ACM does not stand for moxy don't you ?
One of the biggest mistakes one can make is to judge another persons skill by just looking at their stats/rank/score. Those are just meaningless set of numbers that really don't mean anything at all. It's usually not the guy in the Top 10 you have to look out for, it's the guy in the Top 2000 that's probably the real killer.
ack-ack
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it is very interesting that the "assumption of inferiority" is so common here amongst so many,
about so many things.
many here freely disparage or the skills of players who play the game different, players who play different games, players who have different opinions about different things ... etc.
yet it is questioned so quickly when it is someone in "the club" who appears to be disparaged, especially when some data seems to support that assumption.
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it is very interesting that the "assumption of inferiority" is so common here amongst so many,
about so many things.
many here freely disparage or the skills of players who play the game different, players who play different games, players who have different opinions about different things ... etc.
yet it is questioned so quickly when it is someone in "the club" who appears to be disparaged, especially when some data seems to support that assumption.
The problem with the 'data' is that its not accurate for judging one's skill. I'm sure if you look at both of our stats for the LW and MW arenas, you'll probably have the better stats between us and gives you the false impression that the more skillful player has the better stats, which would be incorrect.
Look at this player's stats (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/pilot.php?selectTour=MWTour119&playername=Dotcommi&action=1) from last tour in the MW arena. As Dedalos mentioned in another thread, this player clearly manipulated the scoring system to achieve a top fighter rank. According to the 'data' this player is an experten but in reality this player would be extremely hard pressed to win any sort of fight and one would hardly consider him to be skilled in anything other than manipulating the scoring system.
In short, the score/stats/rank system is not an indicator of player's skill and any assumption about a player's skill should not be derived by this 'data'.
ack-ack
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not really interested in the little "p-ing" contests in here.
the constant "you don't know this or that" and "you are not very good" just gets old real fast
you all would come across a lot better if you laid off the unfounded personal judgments and stuck to your points on their merits alone.
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Stats :rofl I can probably get and hold a 10 to 1 K/D if i flew a tempest and flew it "smartly" :lol And haven't got a clue in a fight against some of the folks in this thread. People see someone K/D is 17 to 1 and go, "Woot! he's good!". When all they really did is spent the weekend buff hunting at 30K......pffffff :rolleyes:
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it is very interesting that the "assumption of inferiority" is so common here amongst so many,
about so many things.
many here freely disparage or the skills of players who play the game different, players who play different games, players who have different opinions about different things ... etc.
yet it is questioned so quickly when it is someone in "the club" who appears to be disparaged, especially when some data seems to support that assumption.
Well, I finally got to fight you last week in the AvA. I think the score is like 4 or 5 to nothing? If I remember correctly (and i think films do remember correctly) you died every single time you engaged. And it was in the smart / skill flying scenario you guys are promoting. Meaning, I was BZ with two others when you came in and once they died you made a run for it. You did not even figure out that you could not out run the LA5. So what happened? How come the DA guy beat you? I mean, since I like dueling, according to you guys I should not be able to handle a "realistic" scenario especially by flying stupid like that.
One thing you could take out of this is that had you been practicing 1 vs 1 you would not have to just die running. At some point you could have tried and turn and take a chance instead of just fly straight hoping I hit a tree. So yeah, no question really when it comes to skill, you would not even try :)
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:rofl thor is that true :rofl :rofl
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"Hawk75's exceptional kill ratio in french service (220+/19)"
French did suprisingly well with their Curtiss Hawks but they definately lost more than 19 Hawks.
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it is very interesting that the "assumption of inferiority" is so common here amongst so many,
about so many things.
many here freely disparage or the skills of players who play the game different, players who play different games, players who have different opinions about different things ... etc.
yet it is questioned so quickly when it is someone in "the club" who appears to be disparaged, especially when some data seems to support that assumption.
I couldn't agree with you anymore....my k/d ratio over the weekend was .67 (19/28) and I was probably lucky to get some of those 19 pelts.
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Well, I finally got to fight you last week in the AvA. I think the score is like 4 or 5 to nothing? If I remember correctly (and i think films do remember correctly) you died every single time you engaged. And it was in the smart / skill flying scenario you guys are promoting. Meaning, I was BZ with two others when you came in and once they died you made a run for it. You did not even figure out that you could not out run the LA5. So what happened? How come the DA guy beat you? I mean, since I like dueling, according to you guys I should not be able to handle a "realistic" scenario especially by flying stupid like that.
One thing you could take out of this is that had you been practicing 1 vs 1 you would not have to just dierunning. At some point you could have tried and turn and take a chance instead of just fly straight hoping I hit a tree. So yeah, no question really when it comes to skill, you would not even try :)
Just Die!!!!! I like it I like it... :cheers:
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"Hawk75's exceptional kill ratio in french service (220+/19)"
French did suprisingly well with their Curtiss Hawks but they definately lost more than 19 Hawks.
Whoops combat loses were 29 planes (my bad) with 230 confirmed and 80 probable. Obviously all sides had issues with over claiming but the losses are pretty well documented. Fin's had 158+ vs 15 losses or something close to that. Would be another great addition to the game IMO.
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yea it's true in those massive fur-balls i was having the most trouble with the la5s and the m-16s people were running to, however in that night of goofing off i was 17-12 ...
and i often thought extending to help vs. superior enemy numbers or when stale and a late comer was inbound was my best option in my G-6 with pods
however i am not here saying i am better than anyone, or that anyone else is no good.
Well, I finally got to fight you last week in the AvA. I think the score is like 4 or 5 to nothing? If I remember correctly (and i think films do remember correctly) you died every single time you engaged. And it was in the smart / skill flying scenario you guys are promoting. Meaning, I was BZ with two others when you came in and once they died you made a run for it. You did not even figure out that you could not out run the LA5. So what happened? How come the DA guy beat you? I mean, since I like dueling, according to you guys I should not be able to handle a "realistic" scenario especially by flying stupid like that.
One thing you could take out of this is that had you been practicing 1 vs 1 you would not have to just die running. At some point you could have tried and turn and take a chance instead of just fly straight hoping I hit a tree. So yeah, no question really when it comes to skill, you would not even try :)
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"Hawk75's exceptional kill ratio in french service (220+/19)"
French did suprisingly well with their Curtiss Hawks but they definately lost more than 19 Hawks.
They didn't enjoy such success against the Wildcat in North Africa, only 7 kills for the loss of 15 H75s.
ack-ack
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Stats :rofl I can probably get and hold a 10 to 1 K/D if i flew a tempest and flew it "smartly"
And your stats would tell us that you did exactly that.
Score & Stats often (not always) actually can tell us about a player... if you take a look at the whole picture and are not staring at the rank # or the tremendously overrated K/D ratio alone.
The example Akak presented is such a case: You only are tempted to say "wow" if you don't notice that this very player did fly one sortie in fighter and all others in attack mode. That completely changes the picture, and this we can tell just from his stats.
A high K/D but a very low K/H indicates a player is spending a lot of time looking for opportunities and doesn't hurl himself into the next furball. Has he lot of bomber kills and a relatively high hit% too? In that case you can see he's a bomber killer, crusing at high alts.
One tour I had a very good K/D and k/H... but you could easily tell how that was done when you noticed the fact that I had ~90% of my "fighter mode kills" in 262 and 163, and you could see I was for the most part just slaughtering buffs, which put my "good" score in perspective quickly. All that you could easily deduce from the stats.
Stats can tell us a story... just put them in relation to each other, and don't let petty prejudices take over your judgement.
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Whoops combat loses were 29 planes (my bad) with 230 confirmed and 80 probable. Obviously all sides had issues with over claiming but the losses are pretty well documented. Fin's had 158+ vs 15 losses or something close to that. Would be another great addition to the game IMO.
According to my source which is Fighters over France and the Low Countries from Mushroom Publications which has a table showing the losses on daily bases, French lost a total of 62 Hawks during the Battle of France and from the Internet sources I've gathered that they lost further 7 before that during the Phoney War-period.
Finns lost 8 Hawks in aireal combat and 6 due to AAA and scored 190 1/3 victories with them.
They didn't enjoy such success against the Wildcat in North Africa, only 7 kills for the loss of 15 H75s.
I was talking about their serivce in Armee De l'air. Haven't taken a look at the losses of the Vichy Hawks.
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And your stats would tell us that you did exactly that.
Score & Stats often (not always) actually can tell us about a player...
Yes :lol but that ain't fair. the buffs kept coming to the factory real low. Hit em a few times and let the ack finish them off :lol
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I disagree that stats really tell you how a person got their kills. In only a rare case or two (all 262 kills, in your example) will it give any insight.
How about 190Ds? P51s? La7s? It tells you nothing about how timid the craft in question was flown. All of these rides can be flown agressively in close combat or used to pick and run at 550mph. You also can't use deaths to see how they flew, because they might have simply flown for fun, flown into giant enemy furballs wrecklessly, or simply sucked at running/picking.
In most cases, plane stats are only helpful to the pilot who created them.
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Would be very interesting to see the Hawk in AH. Someday :rock
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yea it's true in those massive fur-balls i was having the most trouble with the la5s and the m-16s people were running to, however in that night of goofing off i was 17-12 ...
and i often thought extending to help vs. superior enemy numbers or when stale and a late comer was inbound was my best option in my G-6 with pods
however i am not here saying i am better than anyone, or that anyone else is no good.
Lol, massive furbals in the AvA? Bahaha. It was 10 or 15 total online and the 109s where waiting by the runway lol. The only running done was trying to catch you hehe
As i said, a litle practice 1vs1 and you would feel confident that you could rtb after killing the enemy. Wont always work out, but its better than having no options
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I disagree that stats really tell you how a person got their kills. In only a rare case or two (all 262 kills, in your example) will it give any insight.
How about 190Ds? P51s? La7s? It tells you nothing about how timid the craft in question was flown. All of these rides can be flown agressively in close combat or used to pick and run at 550mph. You also can't use deaths to see how they flew, because they might have simply flown for fun, flown into giant enemy furballs wrecklessly, or simply sucked at running/picking.
And that's why you put everything in relation to each other. K/D, KS, time per sortie ect. (Someone Always trying to pick, but sucking at it will have low K/S, K/s and a long average time per sortie)
Often it will give you a picture. Not always of course (and you have to be careful with your judgment too) but I didn't claim that either.
But saying "you can't see anything from stats" in a plain wrong statement.
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15 guys is a pretty big fur-ball imo
and since 2 of my deaths were to m-16s it should be apparent that i was chasing a few guys as well ...
Lol, massive furbals in the AvA? Bahaha. It was 10 or 15 total online and the 109s where waiting by the runway lol. The only running done was trying to catch you hehe
As i said, a litle practice 1vs1 and you would feel confident that you could rtb after killing the enemy. Wont always work out, but its better than having no options
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you suggest you think i don't know things when the average stats suggest you are the inferior player ...
you do realize the M in ACM does not stand for moxy don't you ?
According to this months stats, under "fighter" I have a kill/death ratio of 3.58. This is not too bad considering I will actually take a risk and fight it out when the odds are not awful. I have a kills/sortie of 1.95-I *never* hotpad, so this is decent. I average 5.87 kills per hour. The last is rather low, I readily admit. In my defense, I do sometimes do such time-wasters as escort and long-range raids.
This month, you have a k/d of 1.82, a kills/sortie of 1.09, and a kills time of 3.13. This last is absurdly low...this means you only shoot down an airplane every 19minutes? This indicates what you are doing, or rather, what you are NOT doing: Actually fighting to any extent at all. But everybody knew that... Considering the fuel duration of a 190 in the MA, you are probably hot-padding a considerable percentage of the time to get the kills/sortie above 1.
None of this has any real meaning to the issue at hand, which is showing and understanding of ACM, which by your statements and constantly blaming the sim when something you don't understand happens, shows you don't.
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and did you look at last months and the months before ?
or did you find the one tour you have done better since i started playing this game what 6 tours ago?
According to this months stats, under "fighter" I have a kill/death ratio of 3.58. This is not too bad considering I will actually take a risk and fight it out when the odds are not awful. I have a kills/sortie of 1.95-I *never* hotpad, so this is decent. I average 5.87 kills per hour. The last is rather low, I readily admit. In my defense, I do sometimes do such time-wasters as escort and long-range raids.
This month, you have a k/d of 1.82, a kills/sortie of 1.09, and a kills time of 3.13. This last is absurdly low...this means you only shoot down an airplane every 19minutes? This indicates what you are doing, or rather, what you are NOT doing: Actually fighting to any extent at all. But everybody knew that... Considering the fuel duration of a 190 in the MA, you are probably hot-padding a considerable percentage of the time to get the kills/sortie above 1.
None of this has any real meaning to the issue at hand, which is showing and understanding of ACM, which by your statements and constantly blaming the sim when something you don't understand happens, shows you don't.
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and did you look at last months and the months before ?
or did you find the one tour you have done better since i started playing this game what 6 tours ago?
Last month was your best tour to date, with a k/d of 4, however, you still have a very low kills/time of 4 for that tour. My fighter K/D was 3.25 for the same period with a k/t of 5.18. Your k/d was 4.16 for the tour before that with a k/t of 3.53. Kills/death is the easiest of all scoring categories to jack up with incredibly timid flying, which your average kills/time indicates is your MO. Looking back, I realize a problem with interpreting my scores is that up until recently I flew few to no sorties scored as "fighter" . In many tours, if you care to look you will find my A2A stats for my attack score actually being better than my fighter score, as is ironically, the case this month. Since I have often flown so many more sorties scored as attack, I won't mind having the stats from that used as the comparison to your "fighter" score. Even though it will include things like upping from capp'ed fields, which we both know you never do. If you want to settle this question in the DA, that would be fine with me, however, I know you don't, since we both know how that would go.
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well you see i am not questioning your ACM it is the other way around and quite frankly unfounded since ...
a) i am relatively new to the game
b) you know absolutely nothing about me sir
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well you see i am not questioning your ACM it is the other way around and quite frankly unfounded since ...
a) i am relatively new to the game
b) you know absolutely nothing about me sir
Fair.
Okay, I'll go back to square one and say this one more time in a civil manner. When you hear about an A-20 beating a Spitfire in a dogfight, it is not because the A-20 has any magical powers of climb or turn in AHII you don't know about. It is because the Spitfire pilot made a gross mistake, which the caveat that a good pilot can force can trick even the experienced to make gross mistakes, especially if they think they are in for an easy kill. Most pilots who will do something like win a Boston vs. Spit match-up or the like are masters at defeating gun solutions, and masters of the snapshot themselves. Like I say, 90% of the time its just a case of one pilot slowing down more effectively than the other and making a good shot at a fleeting opportunity. Batfink's Mossie films are the best example of this.
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15 guys is a pretty big fur-ball imo
and since 2 of my deaths were to m-16s it should be apparent that i was chasing a few guys as well ...
Not clicking yet. Oh well, as long as you are havibg fun its all good
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Not clicking yet. Oh well, as long as you are havibg fun its all good
Films may help. :D
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At some point you could have tried and turn and take a chance instead of just fly straight hoping I hit a tree.
Nothing more satisfying than catching a chest-thumping, timid, hit & run experten with their pants down and all they can do is fly straight and level ... :rofl
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unless it's repeatedly killing a chest pounding turn-tard because he thinks he is good enough to overcome all the rules of ACM, and then hear him cry on 200 or the boards because "you didn't play fair" and are obviously an inferior player because you are not being a turn-tard with him against his superior turning FM ...
Nothing more satisfying than catching a chest-thumping, timid, hit & run experten with their pants down and all they can do is fly straight and level ... :rofl
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unless it's repeatedly killing a chest pounding turn-tard because he thinks he is good enough to overcome all the rules of ACM, and then hear him cry on 200 or the boards because "you didn't play fair" and are obviously an inferior player because you are not being a turn-tard with him against his superior turning FM ...
:rofl ... you'll never see me on 200 flappin' my gums ... can't be bothered ... must of struck a nerve eh ?
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unless it's repeatedly killing a chest pounding turn-tard because he thinks he is good enough to overcome all the rules of ACM, and then hear him cry on 200 or the boards because "you didn't play fair" and are obviously an inferior player because you are not being a turn-tard with him against his superior turning FM ...
I would agree with you, if that actually happened. What did happen, was the turn turd dispatched your two friends before you could make a third failed pass :rofl
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:rofl ... you'll never see me on 200 flappin' my gums ... can't be bothered ... must of struck a nerve eh ?
i don't know you so i didn't have any idea you were a turn-tard until you replied ...
i was just speaking in general about what is satisfying in the game, from a non turn-tard perspective ...
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unless it's repeatedly killing a chest pounding turn-tard because he thinks he is good enough to overcome all the rules of ACM, and then hear him cry on 200 or the boards because "you didn't play fair" and are obviously an inferior player because you are not being a turn-tard with him against his superior turning FM ...
that sir ^^^ happens every day, over and over, all the time. the level of vanity or paranoia that caused you to think i was singling you out is ...
shall we say interesting .
FYI: most of us are not so impressed with ourselves because we managed to shoot somebody down.
you had a good day, so what, it happens to everyone ...
get over it ...
I would agree with you, if that actually happened. What did happen, was the turn turd dispatched your two friends before you could make a third failed pass :rofl
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that sir ^^^ happens every day, over and over, all the time. the level of vanity or paranoia that caused you to think i was singling you out is ...
shall we say interesting .
FYI: most of us are not so impressed with ourselves because we managed to shoot somebody down.
you had a good day, so what, it happens to everyone ...
get over it ...
I used it as an example. You made a point and I made one. I used data to back my point.
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I used it as an example. You made a point and I made one. I used data to back my point.
what point did you make?
that you managed to single me out 4 times in a LALA in furballs that i was dishing out air to air kills at a nearly 2-1 rate? i never said you didn't.
that you caught me trying to get to help in my g6 with pods vs. you e+ la5 because i thought that was my best option?
i never said you didn't.
is that supposed to mean something, other than you may know more about playing AH than i do?
once again, i never said you didn't.
so what point do you think you made?
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i don't know you so i didn't have any idea you were a turn-tard until you replied ...
i was just speaking in general about what is satisfying in the game, from a non turn-tard perspective ...
No reason to call someone a turn tard just because they can turn a plane better than you.
That is like someone calling you a run tard because you don't know how to turn.
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No reason to call someone a turn tard just because they can turn a plane better than you.
That is like someone calling you a run tard because you don't know how to turn.
that is a fair statement, however it is a "return of service" so to speak, if you get my point ...
i have a reciprocal courtesy policy ...
Nothing more satisfying than catching a chest-thumping, timid, hit & run experten with their pants down and all they can do is fly straight and level ... :rofl
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what point did you make?
that you managed to single me out 4 times in a LALA in furballs that i was dishing out air to air kills at a nearly 2-1 rate? i never said you didn't.
that you caught me trying to get to help in my g6 with pods vs. you e+ la5 because i thought that was my best option?
i never said you didn't.
is that supposed to mean something, other than you may know more about playing AH than i do?
once again, i never said you didn't.
so what point do you think you made?
The point was that practice in the DA does make you better even in a MA situation. You keep with your story but not really what happened. I was the one that was BZ and you doing the picking. One more time so it sinks in (hopefully), the point is that DA or 1 vs 1 practice is what allowed me to do that and the lack of it is what made your only option to fail pick and run. The only reason you thought running was the best option for you was not knowing what to do in a 1 vs 1 situation (something that you learn by practicing 1 vs 1). So, yeah, my point was that I am better than you but that is only because I bothered to practice dueling. Isn't this what this thread is about? How on earth can you handle 2 or 3 cons if you can't even attempt to take on one? The only way is to avoid them, and that is probably what MA fighting is teaching you.
So, one more time, turn-turd that practiced dueling 4 runtard that thinks practicing is useless 0. Point made i hope
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except it was 4-1 and it was rarely a 1-1 situation, even the time you like to try and use as an example was not a 1v1 as you have stated.
second i don't recall saying that dueling has no value, i may have said it does not directly relate to success in air combat or success in the games, and i did say that personal combat was not the most important aspect of being a good player, but i never said it was useless ...
i am sure i said that flying smart will lead to success much quicker than learning how to duel, which it will.
now just the fact that you managed to find me vulnerable while you were in a plane better suited to a turn-fight has no bearing on how "good" or "bad" we are, or what we know about ACM and how it may or may not relate to AH and our specific situations in the game at the time.
does it?
The point was that practice in the DA does make you better even in a MA situation. You keep with your story but not really what happened. I was the one that was BZ and you doing the picking. One more time so it sinks in (hopefully), the point is that DA or 1 vs 1 practice is what allowed me to do that and the lack of it is what made your only option to fail pick and run. The only reason you thought running was the best option for you was not knowing what to do in a 1 vs 1 situation (something that you learn by practicing 1 vs 1). So, yeah, my point was that I am better than you but that is only because I bothered to practice dueling. Isn't this what this thread is about? How on earth can you handle 2 or 3 cons if you can't even attempt to take on one? The only way is to avoid them, and that is probably what MA fighting is teaching you.
So, one more time, turn-turd that practiced dueling 4 runtard that thinks practicing is useless 0. Point made i hope
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What's a turn tard? :huh
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except it was 4-1 and it was rarely a 1-1 situation, even the time you like to try and use as an example was not a 1v1 as you have stated.
second i don't recall saying that dueling has no value, i may have said it does not directly relate to success in air combat or success in the games, and i did say that personal combat was not the most important aspect of being a good player, but i never said it was useless ...
i am sure i said that flying smart will lead to success much quicker than learning how to duel, which it will.
now just the fact that you managed to find me vulnerable while you were in a plane better suited to a turn-fight has no bearing on how "good" or "bad" we are, or what we know about ACM and how it may or may not relate to AH and our specific situations in the game at the time.
does it?
:rofl :aok
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i don't know you so i didn't have any idea you were a turn-tard until you replied ...
i was just speaking in general about what is satisfying in the game, from a non turn-tard perspective ...
And I was just speaking in general that most run-tards couldn't find their dogfighting arse with both hands when speed is no longer available to them.
Some days I'm a turn-tard, others I might be a BnZ-tard ... but never a run-tard.
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It seems to me that no matter how hard we try not to be....we are all just a bunch of tards :D
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What's a turn tard? :huh
<---- Turn Tard..
That's right, I turn and I don't solely depend on BnZing.
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A turn tard is someone who is flying such an uber turning aircraft, such as a Spit9, HurriC, Zero, etc that you cannot effectively reverse them in the majority of the aircraft. Like Kazaa or TonyJoey flying a Spit9, completely unfair and unnecessary choice of ride. Turn tards! :D
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What's a turn tard? :huh
Someone who likes turnips
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A turn tard is someone who is flying such an uber turning aircraft, such as a Spit9, HurriC, Zero, etc that you cannot effectively reverse them in the majority of the aircraft. Like Kazaa or TonyJoey flying a Spit9, completely unfair and unnecessary choice of ride. Turn tards! :D
ahh ok... I rescind my comment, unless the G14 makes the turn tard list in the future. I just call the uber-turny planes 'clown wagons' (courtesy of Warkat). Esp the spit 5 and the Hurry 2C...
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i am sure i said that flying smart will lead to success much quicker than learning how to duel, which it will.
It doesn't take all that long to learn how to "fly smart". Its not that hard to recognize a good situation vs. a fubar one, not that hard to recognize an occupied and "cherry" victim. A couple dozen hours flight time at most. Nothing wrong with flying moderately "smart", since I don't really die though, I regularly ignore that little voice in my head that says what I'm doing is a bad idea, and actually come out of "stupid" situations with kills enough to make continued attempts worthwhile.
A duel is by definition a neutral situation. If you can't win from a neutral situation, you can't win in a disadvantaged situation. Similar plane duels, btw, still involve all the elements of the broad range of ACM. One adversaries choice of E-sacrifice on the merge to gain angles leads to the other player applying "E"-tactics quite often, for example. Reversals, can and do happen, any opponent worth their salt will usually test your flying and gunnery even after a six position is gained. Everyone knows that a 109K4 outclimbs a Jug, or that a Hurricane out-turns an Fw-190...but when the planes have identical performance, the skill of detecting and taking advantage of subtle differences in energy and position moment-to-moment is honed. Even when it comes to fighting from an advantage, one needs the practice...if you can't get guns on the opponent in a matched duel, then that Spit one is trying to b'n'z to death in a 190 will probably prove far too elusive. (While we're on the subject though, the TA is really much better than the DA, because successful gun solutions can be made over and over again without having to restart the fight.)
As an aside-"turnard"!?!?!??? All ACM involves "turning" of some form or another. And ACM, as played at the highest level, always become about how slowly you can fly your ride and still remain in control. You are never going to kill anybody that knows what they are doing 1v1 by refusing to make a pass at less than 350+.
Far too often in one's travels, one is going to run into more maneuverable planes one cannot run from. One has the choice to make, are you just going to depend on others, and likely die while yelling for the help that may or may not come in time? Or are you going to learn some skills that actually give you abit of a chance in that situation?
http://www.mediafire.com/file/zitjju1zvym/survival.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/file/zitjju1zvym/survival.ahf)
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Someone who likes turnips
i like turtles
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It seems to me that no matter how hard we try not to be....we are all just a bunch of tards :D
If you're a DiCaprio fan, you're a leotard.
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i like turtles
Turt tard :D
hehe he hehe hehe he said leotard he he
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And ACM, as played at the highest level, always become about how slowly you can fly your ride and still remain in control.
Actually, there are speed/turn (and altitude?) envelopes (I forget what they're called) for every aircraft. The optimum ACM is to be in a flight regime that exploits your plane's strengths vs. the enemy's weaknesses, which are not necessarily the slowest possible speed.
Extending in a dogfight is also a valid option.
Statements of the obvious, I know.
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you should be careful or you will upset the turn-tards ...
as you can see they become very hostile when cornered ...
Actually, there are speed/turn (and altitude?) envelopes (I forget what they're called) for every aircraft. The optimum ACM is to be in a flight regime that exploits your plane's strengths vs. the enemy's weaknesses, which are not necessarily the slowest possible speed.
Extending in a dogfight is also a valid option.
Statements of the obvious, I know.
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As an aside-"turnard"!?!?!??? All ACM involves "turning" of some form or another. And ACM, as played at the highest level, always become about how slowly you can fly your ride and still remain in control. You are never going to kill anybody that knows what they are doing 1v1 by refusing to make a pass at less than 350+.
Not true, ask them and you will learn. There a 733t ACMer move called push stick forward and never look back. See? no turntarding involved :rofl
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you should be careful or you will upset the turn-tards ...
as you can see they become very hostile when cornered ...
He said extending. That means gain some distance so you can regain e and continue the fight.
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He said extending.
yes he did ...
That means gain some distance so you can regain e and continue the fight.
no, it means using your energy advantage to gain separation ...
you are projecting your bias into his statement to draw a conclusion for no reason,
and are so arrogant about your narrow view of ACM that you do not even realize that you are doing it.
you presume you know what he means, and presume i do not.
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He said extending.
that depends on what she's wearing. ;)
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ahh ok... I rescind my comment, unless the G14 makes the turn tard list in the future. I just call the uber-turny planes 'clown wagons' (courtesy of Warkat). Esp the spit 5 and the Hurry 2C...
i was called a "bad name" the other day when i out turned a spit in my G14 :D :noid
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<---- Turn Tard..
That's right, I turn and I don't solely depend on BnZing.
Turn Tards make great bait for us Pick Tards. :noid
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no, it means using your energy advantage to gain separation ...
you are projecting your bias into his statement to draw a conclusion for no reason,
and are so arrogant about your narrow view of ACM that you do not even realize that you are doing it.
you presume you know what he means, and presume i do not.
This is where you show just how limiting your understanding of ACM is. As a general rule the person with the energy advantage does not "separate". In fact excessive separation is the single biggest weakness I see in many guys I've worked with or trained. The Goal of the +E pilot is to gain control and to then constantly increase the pressure until he forces a mistake or draws so much E from the bogey as to render defense impossible. The +E fighter is actually working as hard as he can to prevent the -E opponent from gaining separation. If you view any of the SBD clips I posted earlier in the week you'll see I'm constantly extending every chance I get even if only for a few seconds. Contrast that with the hog clip where I establish during the merge that I am +E and then constantly cut the fight back so as not to allow the hog separation...in effect I draw the fight up and he accepts keeping the fight in the phone booth. If he rolls out I'm within 800-1000 max separation and can follow. The real issue here seems to be that your so focused on a false understanding of ACM you won't let anyone help you.
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i am very interested to hear how you propose to extend from an +E opponent ...
BTW you also are projecting your bias into his statement since he did not make any suggestion about what the motivations or intentions were of the extending pilot and no clue what he might do after the extension ...
as far as what i know about ACM, you also are assuming with the expected result ...
This is where you show just how limiting your understanding of ACM is. As a general rule the person with the energy advantage does not "separate". In fact excessive separation is the single biggest weakness I see in many guys I've worked with or trained. The Goal of the +E pilot is to gain control and to then constantly increase the pressure until he forces a mistake or draws so much E from the bogey as to render defense impossible. The +E fighter is actually working as hard as he can to prevent the -E opponent from gaining separation. If you view any of the SBD clips I posted earlier in the week you'll see I'm constantly extending every chance I get even if only for a few seconds. Contrast that with the hog clip where I establish during the merge that I am +E and then constantly cut the fight back so as not to allow the hog separation...in effect I draw the fight up and he accepts keeping the fight in the phone booth. If he rolls out I'm within 800-1000 max separation and can follow. The real issue here seems to be that your so focused on a false understanding of ACM you won't let anyone help you.
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i am very interested to hear how you propose to extend from an +E opponent ...
BTW you also are projecting your bias into his statement since he did not make any suggestion about what the motivations or intentions were of the extending pilot and no clue what he might do after the extension ...
as far as what i know about ACM, you also are assuming with the expected result ...
With a positive E opponent you can turn towards HO till the levels eqaul out, then you just hae to pick the right time to extend away....if your a weak boi....or you can use that time to reverse the BNZ clown and own him
True ownage is when you reverse E on an opponent and kill him :devil
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but if you reverse the E states is he still +E ?
???
With a positive E opponent you can turn towards HO till the levels eqaul out, then you just hae to pick the right time to extend away....if your a weak boi....or you can use that time to reverse the BNZ clown and own him
True ownage is when you reverse E on an opponent and kill him :devil
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True ownage is when you reverse E on an opponent and kill him :devil
:rock Not that I accomplish it much.. but well said :salute
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but if you reverse the E states is he still +E ?
???
I was just saying how you could extend from an opponent with +E........but I dont do it so Im not an expert :aok
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I was just saying how you could extend from an opponent with +E........but I dont do it so Im not an expert :aok
no you proposed a way in which you might reverse the E relationship ...
there is no way to extend from an E+ opponent who does not let you one way or another ...
to suggest you can shows one is assuming errors by their opponent or has a very suspect understanding of ACM and the physics that define its rules.
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no you proposed a way in which you might reverse the E relationship ...
there is no way to extend from an E+ opponent who does not let you one way or another ...
to suggest you can shows one is assuming errors by their opponent or has a very suspect understanding of ACM and the physics that define its rules.
OK heres your way to extend from one.......split S......the most cowardice move in the book IMO you can get plenty of space for YOU to run back to your buddies and get the E+.........
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more assumptions ...
at some point the stacking of your fails will wear you down and you will stop posting ...
OK heres your way to extend from one.......split S......the most cowardice move in the book IMO you can get plenty of space for YOU to run back to your buddies and get the E+.........
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i am very interested to hear how you propose to extend from an +E opponent ...
In general, this means going away level or diving when the "E" fighter is in the vertical portion of his maneuvering. Forcing the opponent to make up horizontal distance tends to make the E states become more equal over time
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Actually, there are speed/turn (and altitude?) envelopes (I forget what they're called) for every aircraft. The optimum ACM is to be in a flight regime that exploits your plane's strengths vs. the enemy's weaknesses, which are not necessarily the slowest possible speed.
Shooting down a pilot with really good defensive ACM skills in a fighter of equal or inferior maneuverability will usually involve flying on the ragged edge below corner speed. This is *more* true when trying to apply E tactics against a more maneuverable fighter, not less. As will avoiding and killing a more maneuverable fighter who is +E on you.
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more assumptions ...
at some point the stacking of your fails will wear you down and you will stop posting ...
What am I assuming? Do a split S in almost any plane against a higher con and your gunna get separation....whats so hard to understand about that?
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In general, this means going away level or diving when the "E" fighter is in the vertical portion of his maneuvering. Forcing the opponent to make up horizontal distance tends to make the E states become more equal over time
you also are proposing an attempt to engineer a change in the situation. please reread the last few posts ...
you guys are arguing with me by changing the parameters of the situation that defined my statement ...
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no you proposed a way in which you might reverse the E relationship ...
there is no way to extend from an E+ opponent who does not let you one way or another ...
to suggest you can shows one is assuming errors by their opponent or has a very suspect understanding of ACM and the physics that define its rules.
Your missing the real point here. The real purpose of energy is to gain an exploitable positional advantage. While the +E plane can always run it can't always kill. Any form of a B&Z attack offers a FQ aspect to a quality opponent. To achieve a reasonable guns solution without risk requires E fighting which is significantly different. From the various comments my assumption is that you are marginally effective and rely on both positional and numeric advantage for your success. I cut out two very short clips here...
The 1st is a strong +E attack from flatiron. I think this is an excellent example of an aggressive +E attack. He is never at risk and never drops to co-e and never gives me a chance to fly straight or regain a measure of parity. Basically he's on me like white on rice from the get go...great flying IMO...
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/film80_0017.ahf (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/film80_0017.ahf)
Here is a much less experienced zeke driver who makes a lot of common mistakes. My question is can you pick out my multiple extensions and do you understand the ACM behind them. Here is a fight were I am never +E yet control the encounter and manufacture a tracking solution from a -E state...
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/film74_0022.ahf (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/film74_0022.ahf)
And yes it's easy to say (with accuracy) that he made mistakes, however those mistakes were induced by good ACM on my part....
BTW in spite my overall modest success I had 2 5 kill hops that weekend in the SBD....
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What am I assuming? Do a split S in almost any plane against a higher con and your gunna get separation....whats so hard to understand about that?
because the other pilot who started E+ will still be E+ and will run you down if he chooses no to let you go ..
(unless of course you want to introduce other factors to once again to try to avoid understanding that you are in error)
because you can not extend from an E+ opponent unless he lets you one way or the other.
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I don't want to run from a +E opponent...I want to kill him...I want him to be +E the entire fight right up till I kill him. What important is that he thinks he's winning....right up until he's dying :aok
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because the other pilot who started E+ will still be E+ and will run you down if he chooses no to let you go ..
This is exactly what you want him to do as the -E pilot. It's what allows you to get him into guns range. It's predictable behavior on his part, which is also kind of nice.
I'm counting on him "not letting me go" so I can kill him.
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thorsim,
For a lot of experienced player base being -E is potentially an advantage, even vs another quality stick some guys prefer to be counter punchers.
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i am very interested to hear how you propose to extend from an +E opponent ...
BTW you also are projecting your bias into his statement since he did not make any suggestion about what the motivations or intentions were of the extending pilot and no clue what he might do after the extension ...
as far as what i know about ACM, you also are assuming with the expected result ...
LoL, no one is assuming anything. I saw your use of acm. Lol
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And I was just speaking in general that most run-tards couldn't find their dogfighting arse with both hands and a map when speed is no longer available to them.
Some days I'm a turn-tard, others I might be a BnZ-tard ... but never a run-tard.
Fixed. :devil
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that is all well and good guys and i assure you that i am aware of all those possibilities ...
but none of those things are what we were discussing ...
someone felt free to criticize my play style and and question my understanding of the real world parameters that this game attempts to represent.
in the process he made statements that clearly show a bias in his valuation in fighting styles and suggested a poor understanding of ACM.
i pointed that out and here we are, all of you saying if this and if that, none of which addresses the issue at hand.
i think this previous poster said it best recently ...
Actually, there are speed/turn (and altitude?) envelopes (I forget what they're called) for every aircraft. The optimum ACM is to be in a flight regime that exploits your plane's strengths vs. the enemy's weaknesses, which are not necessarily the slowest possible speed.
Extending in a dogfight is also a valid option.
Statements of the obvious, I know.
and i will take what he said for what it is and not project into it to suit any bias i may have about how one should fly.
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Thor here it is point blank.
Put slapshot/dedalot/humble in an FM2 at 5k vs you in a 190 D9 at 10k.
They will either win or fight you to till you have to "extend" and try again. I'm more than willing to bet you will get too far away after the initial attack run. Enabling any of them to gain all of the E used to avoid your attack run.
If you were to reverse roles I'm quite sure you'd be toast quite quickly. Don't take it as a criticism of play style. These guys are just on another lvl. To get to their lvl you will have to do the turn tard thing though. It's the only way you can find out what your AC can and can't do.
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I'd put it in this perspective. What if you were in the inferior plane and had inferior position? We view this as a game of choice. I can choose the fastest plane and only fly with the numbers in my favor. Well what if your a guy like Dick Suehr flying P-400's at Port Moresby. The Zero's rolled in over hills often above the max functional altitude of the P-39's and P-400's. The simple reality is superior pilots in "inferior" planes killed thousands of pilots during the war. I could care less what you think you know. Until you can successfully apply it your just posturing.
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yep and ya know what bronk that has everything to do with what we know about AH and nothing to do with what we know about ACM ...
Thor here it is point blank.
Put slapshot/dedalot/humble in an FM2 at 5k vs you in a 190 D9 at 10k.
They will either win or fight you to till you have to "extend" and try again. I'm more than willing to bet you will get too far away after the initial attack run. Enabling any of them to gain all of the E used to avoid your attack run.
If you were to reverse roles I'm quite sure you'd be toast quite quickly. Don't take it as a criticism of play style. These guys are just on another lvl. To get to their lvl you will have to do the turn tard thing though. It's the only way you can find out what your AC can and can't do.
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yep and ya know what bronk that has everything to do with what we know about AH and nothing to do with what we know about ACM ...
LOL it has every thing to do with ACM. Either plane they win. Why? They know how to apply ACM better than you. This is not a slam on you, they are just simply better. Only practice will get you to their lvl. Putting your nose down and running isn't going to get you any better.
Believe what you want. IMO though an evening spent in the DA or even the TA with any that I have listed WILL sharpen you.
You have nothing to lose and much to gain. Once you have tried it nothing says you can't go back to flying in a more "historical" fashion.
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LOL it has every thing to do with ACM. Either plane they win. Why? They know how to apply ACM better than you. This is not a slam on you, they are just simply better. Only practice will get you to their lvl. Putting your nose down and running isn't going to get you any better.
Believe what you want. IMO though an evening spent in the DA or even the TA with any that I have listed WILL sharpen you.
You have nothing to lose and much to gain. Once you have tried it nothing says you can't go back to flying in a more "historical" fashion.
Don't even waste your time on Earth with him Bronk.
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uh huh so you believe would they be able to do the same to me in WB, i.e. a game i have played more than 6 months?
wanna bet on it ???
LOL it has every thing to do with ACM. Either plane they win. Why? They know how to apply ACM better than you. This is not a slam on you, they are just simply better. Only practice will get you to their lvl. Putting your nose down and running isn't going to get you any better.
Believe what you want. IMO though an evening spent in the DA or even the TA with any that I have listed WILL sharpen you.
You have nothing to lose and much to gain. Once you have tried it nothing says you can't go back to flying in a more "historical" fashion.
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Don't even waste your time on Earth with him Bronk.
I have piled on the guy in the past for being a luftwhiner. This time I am really trying to be helpful. If the guy will just swallow his pride and try what I am suggesting a whole new realm of possibilities would open for him.
Hell... If he'd just book some time with widewing (He's got no dog in this hunt.) it would do him some good.
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uh huh so you believe would they be able to do the same to me in WB, i.e. a game i have played more than 6 months?
wanna bet on it ???
Give em 6 months?? Yup. Cream always rises to the top.
Edit: Gnite thor. Seriously book some time with Widewing it did me a world of good. :salute
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T ,
just book some time with widewing or one of the other guys mentioned and put it to the test. if you both document your findings on this thread then we can put this to rest right or wrong.
I for one am very interest in the out come. Ill bet that you could have your choice of several very good sticks that have posted on this thread.
btw ... Pass the popcorn hehehe
Rabbit
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uh huh so you believe would they be able to do the same to me in WB, i.e. a game i have played more than 6 months?
wanna bet on it ???
I have not flown WB in a good while.... but I'll take you up on your bet..and I will gladly post any asswhippin you might give me here for all to see.....
balls in your court!
edit: I will extend that even to include Targetware Rabual, Fighter ace, IL2 forgotten battles including pacific fighters....... if that will fancy ya any?
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There ya go T.
TC good show on the offer to help . please post the films :devil
Rabbit
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I have piled on the guy in the past for being a luftwhiner. This time I am really trying to be helpful. If the guy will just swallow his pride and try what I am suggesting a whole new realm of possibilities would open for him.
Hell... If he'd just book some time with widewing (He's got no dog in this hunt.) it would do him some good.
Thorsim wouldn't know "pride" if it stared him down and kicked him in the twins. I realize what you're trying to do, but "he knows it all". When in fact, he knows very little.
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I have not flown WB in a good while.... but I'll take you up on your bet..and I will gladly post any asswhippin you might give me here for all to see.....
balls in your court!
He will ONLY duel in the WB arena. I already tried to set up a duel with him about a month ago. He weaseled out of it, by making that game the "site for the duel". I've never played WB's, let alone go there.
He'll try weasel out of this one too.
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done, sat soon enough ...
I have not flown WB in a good while.... but I'll take you up on your bet..and I will gladly post any asswhippin you might give me here for all to see.....
balls in your court!
edit: I will extend that even to include Targetware Rabual, Fighter ace, IL2 forgotten battles including pacific fighters....... if that will fancy ya any?
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done, sat soon enough ...
how bout sunday ? I got to go install WB on my PC and setup a new account......
I take it you are Thor in WB as well? er THOR
and Thor, this is not a mano e mano I am better than you duel......... It is a test, right? on who knows how to use proper BFM / Tactics and E Management skills / SA Skills........that is how I am approaching it, Sir....
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since we are going to go have a duel in your game, I would like to ask we have this duel by the Dueling Rules we use here in Aces High......
and we have 10 fights best of 5 using my pick of plane
then best of 5 using your favorite plane? sooooounnnnddddd goooodddd????
edit: and I will try and run FRAPS while playing...I am pretty sure my PC is capable of it....... or I can post the films, but if I use fraps I can get someone to convert it to a youtube movie or wmv or avi so people here can view it.....
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since we are going to go have a duel in your game, I would like to ask we have this duel by the Dueling Rules we use here in Aces High......
Spell out the rules for 'em TC.
Thor has not a clue what they are.
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Dueling Rules
- The fuel will be 25% unless otherwise stated as being a handicap for a particular contestant.
- If someone loses a wing, tail, or engine, the round is over.
- Only two contestants to a dog fight.
- Only one dog fight at a time.
- Both contestants must get a fresh plane before the next round.
- The bout winner will be best out of five rounds.
- Rounds must start Co Alt and Co E before the initial merge.
This means no going above the agreed altitude before the initial merge in order to gain more E then your opponent, but you may dive under your opponent once you are in icon range.
- No Head-Ons on the initial merge.
- No rams.
- If you get more then 2.5K from your opponent while your plane’s nose is pointed away from him, you lose that round. If both contestants are nose away, that round is forfeit. This includes altitude.
- Any modifications of the these rules must be noted in text upon take-off of the first round, and both contestants must agree in text before the initial merge of the first round. This includes any fuel handicaps.
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works for me although i never said i knew more ...
it is more imo about people suggesting i don't know any ...
however sunday is the s3 ...
so next saturday?
and it is
-thor-
in WB ...
how bout sunday ? I got to go install WB on my PC and setup a new account......
I take it you are Thor in WB as well? er THOR
and Thor, this is not a mano e mano I am better than you duel......... It is a test, right? on who knows how to use proper BFM / Tactics and E Management skills / SA Skills........that is how I am approaching it, Sir....
that is fine we can do that in AH this sat if you like as i am curious what the comparisons would be myself and sooner is better imo ...
conditions are fine as long as the motivations stay the same, as personally i have never considered myself a duelist and really am not sure what they settle in these types of arguments ...
however i am confident that you will find me a competent virtual combat pilot and worthy to express my opinions on ACM on this or any other similar board and be treated with if not respect at least common courtesy ...
since we are going to go have a duel in your game, I would like to ask we have this duel by the Dueling Rules we use here in Aces High......
and we have 10 fights best of 5 using my pick of plane
then best of 5 using your favorite plane? sooooounnnnddddd goooodddd????
edit: and I will try and run FRAPS while playing...I am pretty sure my PC is capable of it....... or I can post the films, but if I use fraps I can get someone to convert it to a youtube movie or wmv or avi so people here can view it.....
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Good form fellers. I cant wait for the results.
Looks like we have a virtual hand shake there boys.
All the best to you both .
Never seen T or TC run from anything. both are former squaddies and I have much respect for both pilots skills and honor . :salute
Rabbit
Former Damned and <?>
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ok, need a favor........ I can not find WB' s TOS ( terms of Service ) posted anywhere on their website........
says in order to get my free 30 day trial I have to enter a credit card ( have no problem with this ) , and I will be charged for the 2nd month..then I can cancel my account.....then says see terms of service....
why don't they just post it as "1st month free with paid 2nd month" :-/
I can not find the terms of service.......
it might take me til next Saturday to get this figured out LOL....... so ok, we go this sat for AH and next saturday for WB... I can make that work.....
somehow I am sure....... ( for the record, I am disabled.and I have not had any income at all except for a cple of small checks I received in Sept of last year.....but I'll get a family member to set me up no worries )
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we can do this sunday before 6pm eastern for AH and actually WB would need to be week after next same time?
i just didn't want to interfere with an event times ...
i am an event junky ...
sorry to hear about your problems sir ...
if it is a problem i am sure we can work something out i have a defunct 2nd account i can activate for a month no problem ...
i think ...
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we can do this sunday before 6pm eastern for AH and actually WB would need to be week after next same time?
i just didn't want to interfere with an event times ...
i am an event junky
alls good...... will post when I get my acct squared away and get online with my handle and all.....
lets see what we both can come away with on the comparisons of it all :cheers:
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ok but will need to be this weekend or weekend after next as i forgot alternating weekend girlfriend stuff sir
so this sat or sun and what time ?
:cheers:
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ok but will need to be this weekend or weekend after next as i forgot alternating weekend girlfriend stuff sir
so this sat or sun and what time ?
:cheers:
we can do it this Saturday say 5 or 6 PM? EST time?
also, I sent you a pm....... appreciate your offer in the earlier post, :salute
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lets split the difference and do it sat at 5:30p.m. eastern ...
rabbit can handle ticket sales ;)
we can sort out WB later ...
btw i will go with the a5 can you give me a heads up for your plane of choice as i have not explored the plane set much yet, if it were the first time in the FM it might not be very interesting ...
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lets split the difference and do it sat at 5:30p.m. eastern ...
rabbit can handle ticket sales ;)
we can sort out WB later ...
btw i will go with the a5 can you give me a heads up for your plane of choice as i have not explored the plane set much yet, if it were the first time in the FM it might not be very interesting ...
so in our 1st match up we will fly Fw190A5's for 5 rounds
and for the 2nd match up I will pick the F4U-1 for the next 5 rounds for this Aces high meet...
5:30pm sounds ok to me......
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because the other pilot who started E+ will still be E+ and will run you down if he chooses no to let you go ..
(unless of course you want to introduce other factors to once again to try to avoid understanding that you are in error)
because you can not extend from an E+ opponent unless he lets you one way or the other.
Your assuming this is a perfect world in AH? There is always other factors and your talking about extending......you can extend 500 ft from you opponent and it is still an extend.
TC has a flying style which will show you how to use an extend in the most aggresive of knife fights, right when you think you may have him he pulls out of the fight gets separation then sets you up.....thats if you even come close to getting around on him :aok
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i'm sure he is i remember The Damned from way back in Mac AW Classic ...
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Junky you hit exactly on the real value of an "extension". The player with inferior E state who is unable to achieve and sustain a guns solution but has positional parity or advantage needs to reset the fight before he is forced to push an inferior position beyond recovery. He takes advantage of his position to shift into some form of lag and create enough separation for him to pursue a new course of action. The goal of the extension is to create seperation and defend against a losing position before it becomes apparent or irreversible. So the player at the top of his game is constantly exchanging E for position to increase or sustain pressure while the same player in a -E state is either using his E state to accept/manufacture an angular advantage or to exchange that angular advantage for both position and E. When I decline to follow a high yoyo in the SBD I'm giving up angular position...but I'm gaining both speed and separation. This meets every definition of an extension even if I don't appear to be "diving out", flying in a straight line or separate beyond 2.0 or so. None of this is based on any particular flight model or plane. Given a reasonable starting altitude I'll fly the SBD vs anyone in any plane in any sim. The only area of difference is in finding the edge of the flight envelope. Obviously an inadvertent spin that surrenders the little E and angular position you might have to manipulate would normally be fatal in a fight vs a superior plane.
ACM is ACM and is not either plane or sim specific as long as fundamental modeling somewhat decent.
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you should be careful or you will upset the turn-tards ...
as you can see they become very hostile when cornered ...
Cornered?? Turntards like cornering..... you must start speaking straight :rofl
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A turn tard is someone who is flying such an uber turning aircraft, such as a Spit9, HurriC, Zero, etc that you cannot effectively reverse them in the majority of the aircraft. Like Kazaa or TonyJoey flying a Spit9, completely unfair and unnecessary choice of ride. Turn tards! :D
I resemble this remark :furious
hmmmmmm what to call a BnZ queen hmmmmmmmmmmmm
oh I got it....you....you.....
BnZtard :D
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xD let's face it, most time when you say oh chit, you're no longer controlling the fight. You just gotta roll with whatever situation you got put into.
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Myself, I usually say something like, "oh man, what a beautiful move that was" to myself as his cannons eviscerate my aircraft.
Hate to admit it but someone else artistically kickin my butt is always more impressive than any kill I get because I always figure the other guy was new or made a mistake or I got lucky.
Love this game.....................
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I resemble this remark :furious
hmmmmmm what to call a BnZ queen hmmmmmmmmmmmm
oh I got it....you....you.....
BnZtard :D
Nah, more like Pwntard.
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Nah, more like Pwntard.
:lol so your a tard if ya do and a tard if ya dont....
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A Dotard and a Dontard?? :banana:
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lol, theres a pleauge on both your houses for you.
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Aw heck fellers. cant I just sit back and watch this one?
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xD let's face it, most time when you say oh chit, you're no longer controlling the fight. You just gotta roll with whatever situation you got put into.
There is always something you can do to get out of any situation that isnt a gang bang. Even if someone has a shot op, you can roll your aircraft to scrub or throw off your opponents shot. Most of the real good sticks like to give you a shot to set up there own, they put themself in a bad spot and time it just right.
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So how did it all turn out?
TC?
Thor?
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well bout as you would expect ...
i got close in about 1/4 to 1/3 of the fights but the plane handling ability and lack of dueling and AH experience showed and i did not win any ...
i will leave the evaluation of my knowlege of ACM to TC ...
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I thought we was doing a comparison of ability between AH & WB's?
it turned out that thorsim has not been playing Aces high for a lengthy amount of time to have the flying characteristics of the plane he chose "FW190A5" down to a comfortable level......
thorsim flys more like a Hunter so to speak...... using his speed and alt to make slashing attacks...... he faired well for his experience level in Aces High........ he knows what is going on in a basic sense..but thorsim is not up on dueling........ he actually improved as our fights went on, so that tells me he is a quick learner.......he just needs to put the time in, like everyone else.......
I expect it to be different when we go do our comparison test over in WB....
thats about it.........
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agree on all counts ...
however it was not my intention to propose a game comparison,
i just think i could better express my abilities in a game in which i have more experience.
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agree on all counts ...
however it was not my intention to propose a comparison i just think i could better express my abilities in a game in which i have more experience.
yes, thorsim, maybe comparison isn't the right word....... but that is what I meant by it..... :aok
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yes, thorsim, maybe comparison isn't the right word....... but that is what I meant by it..... :aok
:aok
cc TC thanks it was fun, and i appreciate your approach to all this type of stuff, you serve as an example sir ...
++S++
t
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define "close"
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almost?
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I believe the original thing a great number of us to exception to was the idea that there is something "wrong" with the AHII flight model because a good pilot can often use an aircraft that is inferior in performance specifics to beat one that has most of the performance advantages as a fighter. A good fighter pilot can manage the geometry and energy of the fight so that disadvantages are nullified or minimized...but admittedly, this stuff is not very intuitive and takes considerable study and practice to "grok".
so we've established that the average pilot in AH is nothing to be afraid of ...
what you fail to get lute is that if you let a pilot in a plane that cannot do anything required for air to air combat 1/2 as well as your plane than you messed up ...
if the game is such than a player can get around that reality by being a better player than it has big problems.
i know people out there can shoot 100% free throws playing as Shaq in NBA Live Whatever,
however that VIDEO GAME therefore can not be called a SIM. can it?
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well sir i stand by that statement in general and was not pointing out AH as flawed in that regard ...
you do know what "if" means don't you ...
once again you are stretching my point to argue with it and if you do not try and do that then you would see
that i am arguing the opposite ...
FYI TC and i did not test the different a/c theory in the extreme that i am suspect of ...
for the record to make it perfectly clear i do not think either AH or WB are flawed to that degree in that way ...
+S+
t
I believe the original thing a great number of us to exception to was the idea that there is something "wrong" with the AHII flight model because a good pilot can often use an aircraft that is inferior in performance specifics to beat one that has most of the performance advantages as a fighter. A good fighter pilot can manage the geometry and energy of the fight so that disadvantages are nullified or minimized...but admittedly, this stuff is not very intuitive and takes considerable study and practice to "grok".
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he knows what is going on in a basic sense..but thorsim is not up on dueling........ he actually improved as our fights went on, so that tells me he is a quick learner.......he just needs to put the time in, like everyone else.......
That's what I was stating in my previous posts. Dueling with any of those I previously stated is going to make him better. So we can put this to rest dueling is going to make you a better MA player.
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That's what I was stating in my previous posts. Dueling with any of those I previously stated is going to make him better. So we can put this to rest dueling is going to make you a better MA player.
i have no doubt and never meant to give the impression that dueling would not help you in skills that would help you in the other game situations ...
i just think there are other aspects that come into play and those have a lot to do with success in the game and that concentrating on those will lead to more success quicker in the arenas ...
i have never been the best gunner or plane handler in any game, however i have found that other aspects draw me to types of play that emphasize other skills more than the dueling skills.
what i took exception with is the "this type of play is better" attitude and the tendency to disregard and disrespect others with different backgrounds and points of view on the games.
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..
i have never been the best gunner or plane handler in any game, however i have found that other aspects draw me to types of play that emphasize other skills more than the dueling skills.
Never been the best gunner myself. But dueling helps with your gunnery because you'll be taking lots of wierd angle shots on the scissors, trying to pull lead while near the ragged edge, etc. Though not as much as dedicated TA session where one person takes up a maneuverable aircraft and acts as a "target tug" for you.
Now, I ~mostly fly boom and zoom style planes myself. D9, A-5, P-47, P-51. Well, I've flown the I-16 alot this tour for no good reason at all, but that's unusual... Good to keep these planes fast and hit and run in a furball, BUT, like I say, actually using one of these planes to beat a more maneuverable ride 1v1 with E tactics is generally going to involve handling them at uncomfortably slow speeds to take your shot on the (hopefully) near-stalling t'n'b plane you've bled of E.
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Funny how attitudes change after a good spanking lol. How many rounds are we talking about here? 1,2,,,5?
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Funny how attitudes change after a good spanking lol. How many rounds are we talking about here? 1,2,,,5?
sad how some don't ...
as far as how i may be responding to others, note how they have changed their posting style in regards to me.
reciprocal courtesy sir ...
an unfortunate substitute for something that should be common ...
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Yep, maybe this is how you should have started all your posts lol. As for me, you are right, as soon as i receive a spanking from you i will admit i was wrong and my attitude will change. Dont expect me to change just because what i was sure was goibg to happen did happen lol. So, you never answered my question. How many rounds of almost are we talkibg about. Personally i tend to adjust after losing a couple of fights to the same person.
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Personally i tend to adjust after losing a couple of fights to the same person.
he actually improved as our fights went on, so that tells me he is a quick learner.......he just needs to put the time in, like everyone else.......
looks like he did adjust, he is only been playing Aces High for roughly 6 months. TC's been here since beta
He even responded when asked how it went, and posted that he did not win any. Is that not good enough for everyone?
:cool:
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Lol, i know TC, he is just too nice. I'd actually have more respect for thor if he did not try to back pedal lol
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Lol, i know TC, he is just too nice. I'd actually have more respect for thor if he did not try to back pedal lol
Give him some time ded.
Getting schooled by TC a dozen or more times has obviously got him thinking, "hey... there might be something to this ACM stuff". (i.e. actually fighting it out your opponent as opposed to the b/z, pick n' run that appears to be his modus operandi )
I won't even bring up that with his injury TC is no where near 100%.
(oh wait...)
With enough time and practice I am sure the light bulb will go off and he will start thinking to himself, "you mean all this time I have been running from these dweebs instead of killing them?".
Patients Ded.
Old dogs don't like new tricks but I sense that the dark side is strong with this one.
*and BTW TC that WAS one of the funnest fights I have had in AH for a while that we did during KOTH. great stuff sir S!*
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There is always something you can do to get out of any situation that isnt a gang bang. Even if someone has a shot op, you can roll your aircraft to scrub or throw off your opponents shot. Most of the real good sticks like to give you a shot to set up there own, they put themself in a bad spot and time it just right.
Only gangbang really mess me up, in most situation 1 v 1 I can handle pretty okay. Even if it's my D9 vs. a Spitfire in a tnb, it's still fun rolling with that. Once it get into a gangbang though I just can't do much against that well at least in a D9. If im in a turnfighter though, most the time I do prefer 1 vs multiple. But i dunno months stil I get back to the state to play =/
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Well, thorsim has not argued with me in anyway, that I can remember, over any topic..... ( no I have not went and looked at every discussion , but don't think their is any )
I am thinking the match ups we are going to have in War Birds is going to be a whole lot closer.........possibly even me getting my rearend waxed a few times....maybe all the time.....who knows........
I know that at first, I had a thought that maybe thorsim went and looked at my stats and picked the FW190A5, simply because I hardly ever fly it.......I even told him so, telling him he probably whip me arse.....ROFL....
I found both of us had trouble with the snaproll, over controlling of the roll axis/ailerons of the FW190A5........ my dueling partner / close friend who helped me with 3 warm up matches(duels), even noticed this in regards to the FW190A5, we both questioned it and hopefully this might will prompt some studys of it ( by him/us )...... it is so much more edgey(snappy) compared to the FW190A8
Actually , thorsim faired 100% better in the F4U-1 than he did in the FW190A5, and my FW190A5 flying was something not to be desired......
I see no reason to post films, only unless thorsim request me to do so.......
I look forward to seeing how the planes fly in warbirds, compared to Aces High, it has been a good 5 or 6 years since I last flew in WB's, which was just another free trial back then..... knowing hitech made both games, although it has been nearly 11 years since hitech has wrote/tweaked any "coad" for WarBirds....... am curious to see the difference..........<---not saying this whole thing is about comparing the different FM's....this is only about seeing if thorsim is worthy of wanting to prove his knowledge of being able to talk/comment with others in regards to BFM/ACM in general.... and being shown common courtesy if not respect in doing so........ I find if you at least have the courtesy to respect one's view, both will go without conflict........ we all have our own opinions/views of things........ we just got to have the ability to agree to disagree.......
on a different note........ Lute , I had tears in my eyes from laughter in that fight we had....... I even laughed harder when Dogg came over vox telling us to cut it out we was having to much fun......
TC: aha, got cha, you got a fuel leak....hahahha
Lute: back at you, now you got one.....muhahaha
I might go cut that portion of that one fight out of the film to save for memorys.....
I'll stay with Aces High for ever as long as I can have 4 fights like that a year......... it makes it all worthwhile :salute :cheers:
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well i got the impression that things are different in the DA than the MA flight character wise ...
a couple of very embarrassing augers early which i avoided all evening previous to fighting TC ...
i thought i had TC on a couple crossing snap shots (A5) but missed, i did establish a superior position once but was unable to exploit that which i usually do in the MA i think both were the results of the surprisingly poor handling of the A5 that evening as we were both commenting on how touchy the plane seemed ...
this is quite odd as in the other arenas i feel that the A5 is a vacation from my usual A8 handling wise ...
why i picked it is because i thought i could fly in a familiar way in a plane that was "easier" than my usual ride, and it did not lend itself to any "tricks" like flaps and gears that i also am not used to at all.
it had nothing to do with TC and what he flies. all i knew about TC before the duel was that he alone was willing to put himself in a similar situation as i was by dueling in an unfamiliar environment under public scrutiny ...
as far as what else i remember, i was with TC a few more times but had a pancake or two in the hog and i remember some fights getting all the way down to the very low E low alt scissor but i either lost him "hiding" in the cross (which was very disconcerting) or just being unable to get the rear position.
however i did seem to get a few of the fights to the point where at least i felt i was close to achieving a solution
now i don't know if there is a difference in the handling of the planes in the DA vs the MA or if it was just because i was trying to match and or counter a "crisper" pilot than i usually am facing, but either way i was definitely feeling much more out of my element in the DA than i thought i would ...
one point about the duel rules (it never came up vs. TC) the 2.5 distance rule really makes resets in planes like the FWs very difficult. there is a ton of pressure on that first merge and really defines the type of fighting and really may be unfair in a duel between different planes if you guys ever do that stuff. it also weights the fights to the duelist because your first move is defined buy the rule instead of by the players best option ... IMO
+S+
t
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Yep, nothing to do with you. The flight model is different in the DA and the dueling rules were unfair (TC was using a different set? lol). Out of your element in the DA? I would have to agree there. The fights are different when your opponent gets to see you coming :lol
I once read a book on WWII fighting. I also do pretty good in AH. Thor logic would dictate that I would be a 733t pilot in a real F16 (unless it was not modeled correctly or the enemy was some turn-tard) lol
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I doubt thorsim knew this or not........but the only differences is
we used higher alt field ( 15K alt fields ) which by all means is not like fighting down low until you get there.....
and the fuel burn is 1/2 that of what is normal in the MA....MA fuel burn is 2.0 / DA fuel burn is set to your normal 1.0
so it is taking twice as long for your fuel to get to a lower state
That is the only difference between the DA & MA, is the Fuel Burn........ ( this subject has come up before many many times )
whixh really, it does not matter when you are starting with 25% to begin with..my view anyhow....... :cheers:
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well i got the impression that things are different in the DA than the MA flight character wise ..
now i don't know if there is a difference in the handling of the planes in the DA vs the MA or if it was just because i was trying to match and or counter a "crisper" pilot than i usually am facing, but either way i was definitely feeling much more out of my element in the DA than i thought i would ...
The latter. TC has this effect on me also.
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The only other difference is the fight is usually close in. Some folks are not used to that and it can cause issues like getting ham fisted which will sometimes be pushed off as the plane handling differently.
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The flight model is different in the DA
How so?
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WTF ?
can you read ?
i don't duel in any game, but i stepped up and went out of my element in an unfamiliar game against a top pilot and you sit there giving me crap because i post my impressions on things ?
you wanna learn about virtual air combat? you want some respect from me? bring your narrow minded self absorbed ego into the s3 and i will give you a mission to accomplish vs. the 31st, 352nd, 4th, 416th and a bunch of other really really good war gamer groups with your team depending on your ability to accomplish the task i set for you.
no pressure just a couple hundred other guys depending on you coming through. that is my environment, that is where i thrive.
you know having to fight where you can't see your enemy coming, where staying alive matters almost as much as accomplishing your mission. that is my thing, and i am very good at it.
i have not come here demanding respect, however i do not think it unreasonable to expect not to be disrespected just because i feel differently than you about games that have so many different aspects to appreciate, criticize, focus on, and enjoy.
you sir are narrow minded and insecure to a degree i can not even imagine ...
Yep, nothing to do with you. The flight model is different in the DA and the dueling rules were unfair (TC was using a different set? lol). Out of your element in the DA? I would have to agree there. The fights are different when your opponent gets to see you coming :lol
I once read a book on WWII fighting. I also do pretty good in AH. Thor logic would dictate that I would be a 733t pilot in a real F16 (unless it was not modeled correctly or the enemy was some turn-tard) lol
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thorsim, just a little note on how I am viewing ya'lls jabs at each other.....
I take it you are probably near the same age as me if not older ( I am 42 this may )........
you take things too seriously sometime, and you undoubtly have not realized when someone is just "yanking your chain" to "get a rise out of you" yet, here on these boards......
sometimes it is better to just let things like that blow on thru with the wind, instead of getting all spun up over it......
just a lil personal view....... :bolt:
( look forward to our WB matchup, seeya in 2 weeks )
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quite possible TC, my post previous to last was not intended to be taken as me making excuses.
fact was that for whatever reason (and the alt thing is a good point, as is shufflers about close in) we were both commenting on the A5 and it's handling and i was just sharing my impressions on the match-up.
well trying to share anyway ...
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one point about the duel rules (it never came up vs. TC) the 2.5 distance rule really makes resets in planes like the FWs very difficult.
It's time to sign up for BaldEagl's THIRD TRI-ANNUAL ACES HIGH II ONE-ON-ONE BRACKET CHAMPIONSHIP TOURNAMENT.
- The intent is for players to remain in close proximity to one another (2-3K max). That said if at any time the players lose icon range on one another the duel ends immediately and will be re-started using the same planes. This should allow a dueler to simply turn away from a runner to nullify the duel.
Is there another set of accepted dueling rules out there? I fly to the BE tournament rules on those rare occasions I can get someone to the DA.
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Heh, I don't really care in what style or how well Thorsim flies, and I have no urge to kick a man when he's down.
Thor, the only thing you do that really annoys is the constant vague implications that something is "wrong" with the Aces High flight model when you do not have the necessary physics to evaluate any sim's flight model.
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WTF ?
can you read ?
i don't duel in any game, but i stepped up and went out of my element in an unfamiliar game against a top pilot and you sit there giving me crap because i post my impressions on things ?
you wanna learn about virtual air combat? you want some respect from me? bring your narrow minded self absorbed ego into the s3 and i will give you a mission to accomplish vs. the 31st, 352nd, 4th, 416th and a bunch of other really really good war gamer groups with your team depending on your ability to accomplish the task i set for you.
no pressure just a couple hundred other guys depending on you coming through. that is my environment, that is where i thrive.
you know having to fight where you can't see your enemy coming, where staying alive matters almost as much as accomplishing your mission. that is my thing, and i am very good at it.
i have not come here demanding respect, however i do not think it unreasonable to expect not to be disrespected just because i feel differently than you about games that have so many different aspects to appreciate, criticize, focus on, and enjoy.
you sir are narrow minded and insecure to a degree i can not even imagine ...
I have a human level 80 mage. I think dual arcane and fire specs. Does that count? :rofl
As BnZ said, just man up and leave the excuses. You wont even tell me how many rounds you lost. You want respect, come out and post that TC moped the floors with you and you will get it. Own him in WB and you will get even more. What ever the FM may be, you were both using the same one.
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you wanna learn about virtual air combat? you want some respect from me? bring your narrow minded self absorbed ego into the s3 and i will give you a mission to accomplish vs. the 31st, 352nd, 4th, 416th and a bunch of other really really good war gamer groups with your team depending on your ability to accomplish the task i set for you.
no pressure just a couple hundred other guys depending on you coming through. that is my environment, that is where i thrive.
you know having to fight where you can't see your enemy coming, where staying alive matters almost as much as accomplishing your mission. that is my thing, and i am very good at it.
Okay, Ded is being a little more abrasive than I consider tasteful, I believe it is better style to be magnanimous when proven right. Something you fail to grasp is that Dedalos or any other "good stick" in this game *could* fly "smart" all the time and rack up huge k/d ratios, etc. It only takes a few months to get good at flying "smart"...of course, that translates into many more hours than 99% of combat pilots ever had, so it is perhaps no small accomplishment.
The ONLY time I see Dedalos in the air with me is when I'm doing desperate base defense...literally having to fight your way into the air with enemy fighters buzzing the runway. Now, I just checked his k/d, and its 1.89...not surprising when you get strafed on the runway alot. BUT, his kills time is a *stunning* 13 per hour. All stats can be gamed, but honestly, k/t is probably the single best indicator of pilot effectiveness, and engaging numerous enemy fighters coming in with all the advantages to vulch is the *opposite* of gaming your stats! Be very thankful Dedalos does *not* fly with the advantage all the time.
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i believe sir that there are many who point out many things that are wrong with the FMs of all the sim/games ...
mostly it is not an "FM" problem i take issue with, it is how some of the data is used to determine some limits and not others that bothers me mostly.
however i agree that that issue and previous discussions about it that have set the tone between me and others here.
Heh, I don't really care in what style or how well Thorsim flies, and I have no urge to kick a man when he's down.
Thor, the only thing you do that really annoys is the constant vague implications that something is "wrong" with the Aces High flight model when you do not have the necessary physics to evaluate any sim's flight model.
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well there you go again, i will just ignore the first part as that speaks well enough on its own ...
since there has not been enough disclosure for some i believe there were 5 of both the a5 and hog and 2-4 of the a8, as it went on and the fights got more fun it is possible we lost track of the exact numbers of the hog and the a8 as i am positive about the 5 in the a5 but not so much on the other two ...
also i inadvertently hit the gear key a couple of times in the hog while transmitting as it was my first day in the type and dropping gear at high speed is not an issue in the planes i fly so it had never come up before then for me. we reset a fight because of that i recall.
not sure if there is anything else particularly embarrassing that i remember ...
any other questions ...
on a side note it is easier for me, well i am more comfortable, i think where the merge is not "even" as even starting E- you have a way to fight. when you are even and confined i found it more difficult and trying to establish the advantage i think may leave you at even more of a disadvantage if you do not achieve the advantage rather than just starting down fighting. not sure that makes sense, there is more room to breath the more of an e difference for both fighters it seems to me as it is pass and zoom, then re-establish and repeat where the confined duel is more a constant pressure thing and getting e back much harder as the E- player.
I have a human level 80 mage. I think dual arcane and fire specs. Does that count? :rofl
As BnZ said, just man up and leave the excuses. You wont even tell me how many rounds you lost. You want respect, come out and post that TC moped the floors with you and you will get it. Own him in WB and you will get even more. What ever the FM may be, you were both using the same one.
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Thor, props for stepping up to TC's offer. That is much better than most do.
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on a side note it is easier for me, well i am more comfortable, i think where the merge is not "even" as even starting E- you have a way to fight. when you are even and confined i found it more difficult and trying to establish the advantage i think may leave you at even more of a disadvantage if you do not achieve the advantage rather than just starting down fighting. not sure that makes sense, there is more room to breath the more of an e difference for both fighters it seems to me as it is pass and zoom, then re-establish and repeat where the confined duel is more a constant pressure thing and getting e back much harder as the E- player.
The whole point of the matched "duel" is that no one has advantage and an advantageous position must be manufactured. It is indeed possible and not uncommon to use positive "E" fighting techniques in a duel but recognizing and implementing them will be more subtle and involve narrower margins than in some situation where you obviously come in with alot of alt on a guy. That is why the duel is such good practice. In the "real world" of the MA anyone past a two-weeker is not going to try and follow your 190 that just zoomed by at 500mph up into the vertical. If you want a nice guns solution on a good stick in a much more maneuverable fighter, you are going to have keep the pressure up, work with a narrower margin of superior E, and be good at handling the plane what I call uncomfortably slow speed. Another situation you will run into is when the opponent theoretically has the better turner but they keep much speed or are simply reversing abit loosely, and you can go very aggressive on the angles with your "worse" turner to quickly grab a shot opportunity.Again, alot of duelling will help you here.
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thorsim,
1st I'll add a +1 to those who have applauded you for stepping up and exploring the possibilities. I think the degree of difficulty issue is a reflection of TC's ability. This goes back to the concept of induced error. A good pilot using sound ACM can provide a confusing picture that looks to trap another player. The extension range is actually plenty. I spent about 12 min in a 262 "dueling" a A6M5 in the MA on the deck and don't think I ever exceeded 2.0 once and was inside 1.5 most of the time.
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on a side note it is easier for me, well i am more comfortable, i think where the merge is not "even" as even starting E- you have a way to fight. when you are even and confined i found it more difficult and trying to establish the advantage i think may leave you at even more of a disadvantage if you do not achieve the advantage rather than just starting down fighting. not sure that makes sense, there is more room to breath the more of an e difference for both fighters it seems to me as it is pass and zoom, then re-establish and repeat where the confined duel is more a constant pressure thing and getting e back much harder as the E- player.
I'm sorry, did you just say that it's much easier for you to win a fight when you start out with a huge energy advantage? And that dueling someone on a level playing field is more difficult?
Really? Whoda thunk it?
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on a side note it is easier for me, well i am more comfortable, i think where the merge is not "even" as even starting E- you have a way to fight. when you are even and confined i found it more difficult and trying to establish the advantage i think may leave you at even more of a disadvantage if you do not achieve the advantage rather than just starting down fighting. not sure that makes sense, there is more room to breath the more of an e difference for both fighters it seems to me as it is pass and zoom, then re-establish and repeat where the confined duel is more a constant pressure thing and getting e back much harder as the E- player.
Look at it as practice. If you have E then you have E, nothing to do there. Look at the duel as practice in generating that E difference. Don;t forget, you merge co-alt but not co E. Sometimes, less can be better but if you like the more, try to generate the difference. Win or lose, it will make you better and you will be more successful in the MA when you have more room to play with and create the e differential.
The reason for the "confined" environment is to force you to create the advantage instead of starting with it. Personally, I d rather be the low e guy. Gives me an opportunity to get angles early. If for some reason i misjudged your e and the differential is big, I have learned (through dueling) to equalize it. It is easier to equalize E than to get an angle back. For me that is. Others may be different.
Oh, and <S> for showing up. I honestly did not expect it.
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thanks, i have no problem with dueling and like many other things it can be fun frustrating and informative all at the same time. my major reservation is that some would try and use results as proof of something other than who is the best duelist.
Thor, props for stepping up to TC's offer. That is much better than most do.
i understand the point of the matched duel i was just expressing some thoughts on my impressions as a non duelist, the comment you quoted was purely conversational about my experiences, but i understand what you are saying.
The whole point of the matched "duel" is that no one has advantage and an advantageous position must be manufactured. It is indeed possible and not uncommon to use positive "E" fighting techniques in a duel but recognizing and implementing them will be more subtle and involve narrower margins than in some situation where you obviously come in with alot of alt on a guy. That is why the duel is such good practice. In the "real world" of the MA anyone past a two-weeker is not going to try and follow your 190 that just zoomed by at 500mph up into the vertical. If you want a nice guns solution on a good stick in a much more maneuverable fighter, you are going to have keep the pressure up, work with a narrower margin of superior E, and be good at handling the plane what I call uncomfortably slow speed. Another situation you will run into is when the opponent theoretically has the better turner but they keep much speed or are simply reversing abit loosely, and you can go very aggressive on the angles with your "worse" turner to quickly grab a shot opportunity.Again, alot of duelling will help you here.
i have more thoughts but i don't want to bore you all
+S+
t
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I'm sorry, did you just say that it's much easier for you to win a fight when you start out with a huge energy advantage? And that dueling someone on a level playing field is more difficult?
Really? Whoda thunk it?
no i was trying to say i was more comfortable fighting with energy differences even if i am the guy at the disadvantage because i know from experience how to approach those fights. even fights seem to end up as either pure plane handling contests (which i have little hope of winning) or a waiting game to who is gonna screw up first which would likely be me in AH as well ...
i find that pulling out a reversal or overshoot on a guy that is 75mph faster is much easier for me than trying to reverse a guy that has position and is very close to my energy state ...
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no i was trying to say i was more comfortable fighting with energy differences even if i am the guy at the disadvantage because i know from experience how to approach those fights. even fights seem to end up as either pure plane handling contests (which i have little hope of winning) or a waiting game to who is gonna screw up first which would likely be me in AH as well ...
i find that pulling out a reversal or overshoot on a guy that is 75mph faster is much easier for me than trying to reverse a guy that has position and is very close to my energy state ...
Yes, I see now that I misread your post, sorry. Perhaps it's the lack of capitalization? :)
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yea,
Yes, I see now that I misread your post, sorry. Perhaps it's the lack of capitalization? :)
i try to spell check, but i can get sloppy ...
sorry for the confusion ...
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And here we go again. So you will pull a reversal on some one even if cant handle your plane write? How? Just because the other guy is faster? As far as you know, he may have e and can handle his plane. How are you going to win that?
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not being the best plane handler and not being able to handle your plane well are two different things.
And here we go again. So you will pull a reversal on some one even if cant handle your plane write? How? Just because the other guy is faster? As far as you know, he may have e and can handle his plane. How are you going to win that?
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First, thanks for getting the SpitXIV off of my D9's six in the Bulge. Clearing me led directly to the destruction of 3 P-51s a little later. :devil
i find that pulling out a reversal or overshoot on a guy that is 75mph faster is much easier for me than trying to reverse a guy that has position and is very close to my energy state ...
Your darn tootin' it is. That is why again duelling is such good practice. Like I say, the margins are narrower.
Though if he's any good he's going to vertical against every reversal and at some point your ability to really *handle* the plane will be put to the test. Really if he's as good as you and in a similar performing aircraft with advantage, you die 90% of the time, but that's a big "if".
not being the best plane handler and not being able to handle your plane well are two different things.
They are really not. If someone can beat you in a given plane "duelling", then 99% of the time they can rape the furball and land pelts better as well, if they want.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/nxyioiylykz/190A5survival.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/file/nxyioiylykz/190A5survival.ahf)
Look here, took up the 190A5 for abit last night in the MA. Now at first me and my wingman are flying "smart", with all the alt you could ask for on the many bandits. Honestly, anyone with a pulse could have done the first two shoot downs. But how quickly things can change...all of a sudden there is a faster, more maneuverable fighter barreling down on my tail. With a very good pilot in it. Running is not an option. I could have flown alot better here. I did not know who the pilot was...I didn't expect such an aggressive dump of speed and re-attack after the initial overshoot...I might have made more hay after the vertical overshoot if I dumped speed and gone for angles more aggressively. Though I don't put my chances against Lilmak in that matchup as anything but grim. I credit the fact that I survived at all long enough to be saved by my wingman to spending a Friday evening doing several duels in the A-5 myself, against a good stick, with us both flying the things slower than most 190 pilots think is possible. Moment later another faster, more maneuverable fighter comes in. Again, running is off the table. I get very aggressive with the P-51, confident I stand a good chance even in a technically inferior fighter because I will fly it to the "edge" if needed. Likewise, if that SpitXIV in the Bulge Snapshot had been closer to me, I believe I would have had a good chance of surviving long enough for you to pick him off me, or possibly even reversed him if he got particularly stupid. Aggression. Precise gunnery and plane handling. Wriggling out of situations where by all rights you should be dead meat. That is the practical benefit of so-called "artificial" duelling in similar aircraft Co-E.
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thanks, i have no problem with dueling and like many other things it can be fun frustrating and informative all at the same time. my major reservation is that some would try and use results as proof of something other than who is the best duelist.
i understand the point of the matched duel i was just expressing some thoughts on my impressions as a non duelist, the comment you quoted was purely conversational about my experiences, but i understand what you are saying.
i have more thoughts but i don't want to bore you all
+S+
t
Dueling should never be frustrating. It's a great time for discussion and to gather info on what others are doing in certain circumstances. They can also tell you quickly what you did if they were able to get advantage over you.
We are discussing things here pretty civil... I doubt you would bore anyone with more input or questions.
no i was trying to say i was more comfortable fighting with energy differences even if i am the guy at the disadvantage because i know from experience how to approach those fights. even fights seem to end up as either pure plane handling contests (which i have little hope of winning) or a waiting game to who is gonna screw up first which would likely be me in AH as well ...
All the more reason to duel. No matter if your a BNZer, a E fighter , or turner... your going to be down low n slow sometime. If you practice flying in that area you will improve and become more comfortable. That will usually give you a very distinct edge.
I tell folks in golf all the time.... quit hitting the club your comfortable with. It is the others you need to use to become more effective.
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First, thanks for getting the SpitXIV off of my D9's six in the Bulge. Clearing me led directly to the destruction of 3 P-51s a little later. :devil
Your darn tootin' it is. That is why again duelling is such good practice. Like I say, the margins are narrower.
Though if he's any good he's going to vertical against every reversal and at some point your ability to really *handle* the plane will be put to the test. Really if he's as good as you and in a similar performing aircraft with advantage, you die 90% of the time, but that's a big "if".
They are really not. If someone can beat you in a given plane "duelling", then 99% of the time they can rape the furball and land pelts better as well, if they want.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/nxyioiylykz/190A5survival.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/file/nxyioiylykz/190A5survival.ahf)
Look here, took up the 190A5 for abit last night in the MA. Now at first me and my wingman are flying "smart", with all the alt you could ask for on the many bandits. Honestly, anyone with a pulse could have done the first two shoot downs. But how quickly things can change...all of a sudden there is a faster, more maneuverable fighter barreling down on my tail. With a very good pilot in it. Running is not an option. I could have flown alot better here. I did not know who the pilot was...I didn't expect such an aggressive dump of speed and re-attack after the initial overshoot...I might have made more hay after the vertical overshoot if I dumped speed and gone for angles more aggressively. Though I don't put my chances against Lilmak in that matchup as anything but grim. I credit the fact that I survived at all long enough to be saved by my wingman to spending a Friday evening doing several duels in the A-5 myself, against a good stick, with us both flying the things slower than most 190 pilots think is possible. Moment later another faster, more maneuverable fighter comes in. Again, running is off the table. I get very aggressive with the P-51, confident I stand a good chance even in a technically inferior fighter because I will fly it to the "edge" if needed. Likewise, if that SpitXIV in the Bulge Snapshot had been closer to me, I believe I would have had a good chance of surviving long enough for you to pick him off me, or possibly even reversed him if he got particularly stupid. Aggression. Precise gunnery and plane handling. Wriggling out of situations where by all rights you should be dead meat. That is the practical benefit of so-called "artificial" duelling in similar aircraft Co-E.
yea bulge was fun, no problem on the help, wtg on the 3 kills later ...
i broke even (well had an assist on a pony i reversed) but a spit got me on a reversal, and then got GB over 231 ...
i got a pony in the initial fight, and a TF 38 later clearing someone to land ...
DrBone caught me flat footed on a bounce where i got too aggressive in my a8 vs. his spit basically i underestimated his energy or his ability to get it back in the vertical vs. my a8 ...
Re: the FWs, the most trouble i find is when getting bounced and then caught in that "coffin corner"
where you are too fast to drop the flaps, and too slow to maintain stability and maneuver as hard as you may need to in that type of fight.
that is where i die the most ...
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Dueling should never be frustrating. It's a great time for discussion and to gather info on what others are doing in certain circumstances. They can also tell you quickly what you did if they were able to get advantage over you.
We are discussing things here pretty civil... I doubt you would bore anyone with more input or questions.
well the frustrating thing is, not doing it often, it always seems that i had flown better than i am in the duels ...
i think i have trickled out most of the other thoughts, and can't really remember one that i have not brought up ...
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well the frustrating thing is, not doing it often, it always seems that i had flown better than i am in the duels ...
I am always good looking until I look in a mirror...
But seriously, allow a shameless plug for lesser airplanes:
If you up in the MA in a plane that can't run, you end up working turns and angles. My latest favorite is the IL-16, though my eye is wandering to the P-40E. I've been thinking this since uptown's OP. If I recall correctly, uptown kills me often in his P-51. The Mustang is a great plane, but it almost always has an out; it can dive and run.
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Thats right. Everytime i'd do something stupid or plain got out flown i'd dive away. That's my love/hate relationship with the P51s. I've been in the DA instead of the main alot lately trying to break that habit of the "just fly away" option. These duels are forcing me to makeup or learn some pilot poop moves. :joystick:
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Re: the FWs, the most trouble i find is when getting bounced and then caught in that "coffin corner"
where you are too fast to drop the flaps, and too slow to maintain stability and maneuver as hard as you may need to in that type of fight.
that is where i die the most ...
FWs are pretty easy to make someone overshoot and get a shot in the process, either way the e advantage they had on you in say a dora is quickly equalised and you have the option to stay and fight or leave. Even in a plane that turns as badly as a dora even with co e states and a bandit 1k out on your 6 all you need is enough speed to manoeuvre and a bit of alt 500-1000 ft to reverse and force an overshoot.
Not saying you should fly around like a loon in it, thats not the 190s strength however if you can't get yourself out of a bad situation you will literally be flying an equation with a lot of uncontrollable factors and that can't be much fun.
The key to all these overshoots is the set up at the start even the split s I climb a little to give myself more separation for my wider turn radius, roll fast and use diagonal turns, I'm an awful shot even in a FW but you get the idea you get an overshoot plus a shooting opportunity and an option to get out of there.
http://www.4shared.com/file/208013336/26210800/splitsovershoot190.html
(http://www.4shared.com/file/208013336/26210800/splitsovershoot190.html) spilt s overshoot
http://www.4shared.com/file/208015222/1cfec8b3/190vertmerge.html (http://www.4shared.com/file/208015222/1cfec8b3/190vertmerge.html) merge overshoot
http://www.4shared.com/file/208017659/696de7ab/190flatturnovershoot1.html
(http://www.4shared.com/file/208017659/696de7ab/190flatturnovershoot1.html) 190 overshoot
http://www.4shared.com/file/208019178/c9ccd409/190fltturnovershoot2.html
(http://www.4shared.com/file/208019178/c9ccd409/190fltturnovershoot2.html) 190 overshoot
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Excellent films Perv, thanks for posting them.
Though I must point that the reality of the MA is that the *usual* response from a Spit after you have grabbed angle for a crossing shot like that is to pull back on the stick even harder and try to HO with Hispanos. :devil
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Re: the FWs, the most trouble i find is when getting bounced and then caught in that "coffin corner"
where you are too fast to drop the flaps, and too slow to maintain stability and maneuver as hard as you may need to in that type of fight.
that is where i die the most ...
Quite frankly, there is no getting around the fact that the A8 is the second least maneuverable fighter in the game. That is naturally going to present frustrations when attempting to polish dogfighting skills. In an arena full of Spixteens, no one would think the less of you for trying the A5 or Dora, :devil both give you a at least few more options in energy-maneuverability.
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A5
Awesome fun in a good furball :rock
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Quite frankly, there is no getting around the fact that the A8 is the second least maneuverable fighter in the game. That is naturally going to present frustrations when attempting to polish dogfighting skills. In an arena full of Spixteens, no one would think the less of you for trying the A5 or Dora, :devil both give you a at least few more options in energy-maneuverability.
Forget the Dora. The A5 is probably the most under-rated plane in the game.
(now if we could just give it its historical top speed... ::cough:: )
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Forget the Dora. The A5 is probably the most under-rated plane in the game.
(now if we could just give it its historical top speed... ::cough:: )
Don't I know it...~350 on the deck instead of 340 would make a *big* difference in what the A5 could catch and disengage from.
Dora has better E-building performance and firepower (the 13mm cowl guns>MG/FF option on the A5 IMHO) while giving up not as much as you'd think in maneuver. And it can catch a Pony!
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Quite frankly, there is no getting around the fact that the A8 is the second least maneuverable fighter in the game. That is naturally going to present frustrations when attempting to polish dogfighting skills. In an arena full of Spixteens, no one would think the less of you for trying the A5 or Dora, :devil both give you a at least few more options in energy-maneuverability.
I'm a staunch believer in if one wants to get better ... pick a plane that can't get away ... one that has to fight it's way to freedom. I'm a big Allied Navy plane fan, with a smattering of Spit V ... you can usually find me in an FM-2.
If I fly German iron (which is rarely) for dog fighting, it's the 109-F (I think that's the right model) ... it's a German Spit as far as I am concerned ... a very fun and challenging ride.
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i like to sort out the a8 first just because it is so hard, theory being whatever i am assigned in the events is most likely going to be easier and everything else is just event practice IMO ...
like ankle weights ;)
when i get very confident in the a8 i will move on to explore the toughest handling 109 and then the rest of the plane set from there ...
i probably will allot some more time to the DA and maybe koth as those were not very big in WB and i want to check them out, see what gives ...
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i probably will allot some more time to the DA and maybe koth as those were not very big in WB and i want to check them out, see what gives ...
King of the Hill is the exact opposite of your fighting style.
It would do you worlds of good to fly in KOTH.
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I'm intersted in KOTH myself. What's it like?
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t the *usual* response from a Spit after you have grabbed angle for a crossing shot like that is to pull back on the stick even harder and try to HO with Hispanos. :devil
I have no problem hoing people these days myself if I hear the pitter patter of little machine guns on the merge I'll happily face shoot :devil
http://www.4shared.com/file/208425633/a9da597e/2v1190.html
(http://www.4shared.com/file/208425633/a9da597e/2v1190.html)
i like to sort out the a8 first just because it is so hard, theory being whatever i am assigned in the events is most likely going to be easier and everything else is just event practice IMO ...
Events have a balanced plane set m8, I don't think fighting in an a8 is hard but considering the nature of the MA you'll prob find yourself getting one kill in a more aggressive 'turn fight' and then once you blow your e doing that every tom dick and harry will jump all over you as your trying to regain it :mad:fact is a8 just can't get its energy back up quick like a dora especially if you start busting moves in it, which kinda leaves you with the same problem you began with :joystick:
But each to their own, good luck with it :salute
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i'm probably more aggressive than you guys think from my posting ...
how do those koth go are they total free for all or is it team work then fratricide ???
King of the Hill is the exact opposite of your fighting style.
It would do you worlds of good to fly in KOTH.
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I'm intersted in KOTH myself. What's it like?
Hey TexasTC, I highly recommend KOTH. There are some that bend the intent of the rules but there is always a ton of GFs against some of the best sticks in the game.
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i'm probably more aggressive than you guys think from my posting ...
how do those koth go are they total free for all or is it team work then fratricide ???
Free for all. They are fun and exciting if you get a chance to be in the last 2 or 3
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everybody takes off from the same field in the same plane.
they separate and are supposed to get at least 5k separation from each other before the fight is on.
the host CM says "fights on" and everybody fights.
the only 'rules' of the fight are...
don't go over 6k
you can't extend more than 30 seconds.
you have to be IN or OTW to the CLOSEST fight at all times.
last plane alive is the "winner" and picks the plane for the next round.
have to win 3 rounds to win KOTH.
it really is some of the most fun you will find in Aces High.
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If I fly German iron (which is rarely) for dog fighting, it's the 109-F (I think that's the right model) ... it's a German Spit as far as I am concerned ... a very fun and challenging ride.
Love the F4. I'd fly it full time if it could actually leave a fight after running out of ammo. :D
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Love the F4. I'd fly it full time if it could actually leave a fight after running out of ammo. :D
Yup ... gotta kill 'em all to get back home.