General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: novice on March 31, 2019, 03:12:07 PM
Title: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: novice on March 31, 2019, 03:12:07 PM
This is per Gflyer “It is not the average pilot that makes the late war planes boring, it’s the experts who don’t fly anything but them that’s hurting gameplay. Spit 16s, p51ds, Dora’s, yak3s, LA7s, and F4U-1A.. that’s about the only fight you find anymore, perks and eny should be adjusted but so that if you have X number of kills you should have to pay more for them, lots more.
Normal caveats: this is only my opinion and not meant to counter the self-appointed board monitors opinions on what is best for the game. “
I thought this was the most worthy contribution to a thread that got locked out. Now please without any #4 rule violations can we continue on with this disussion.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Ack-Ack on March 31, 2019, 03:21:31 PM
Just because a player is "skilled", they shouldn't be penalized.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: novice on March 31, 2019, 03:40:01 PM
I understand your angle but a skilled player would be able to have fun flying mid war plane in such enviromet. What im trying to get to..
Altho im perfectly happy with the game the way it is I also understand the plight of some ppl that are not happy with the unbalance.
I think the issue we are facing player base that is 20% super skilled and 80% average. It would be easier to make MA more balanced by limiting use of 5eny planes by 20% er than waiting for the other 80% to catch up, wich we honestly never will.
I would venture to say a lot more newbs in d9 or spit 16 would turn and fight a g14 or something along that line than another Spit 16 or god fobid La-7.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on March 31, 2019, 04:03:06 PM
In this game, HT has done his best not to implement personal penalties. ENY and perks are applied to every player, one for arena balance and one as a reward for time or skill or both. The answer to one's personal misery, regarding either, is not to change the game to suit their frustration but to encourage them to play the game, as is, and learn that it is just as enjoyable as it was when they first got hooked. The recommendation to penalize the players that have devoted themselves to achievement in this game is reckless and thoughtless (though I don't think such may have been premeditated). Complaints of personal experiences as an excuse to re-code the game that give no thought to the experiences of the community as a whole or of consequences .... under the guise of being a wholesome recommendation of improvement for all are not to be lauded, imo. One may try to encourage the players with more skill in the game to step down to mid-war or early-war planes to make the game easier (supposedly 'funner') for the less skilled, and that is an understandable perception .... but to demand coding that forces them to is another thing, entirely.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on March 31, 2019, 04:20:29 PM
I understand your angle but a skilled player would be able to have fun flying mid war plane in such enviromet. What im trying to get to..
Altho im perfectly happy with the game the way it is I also understand the plight of some ppl that are not happy with the unbalance.
I think the issue we are facing player base that is 20% super skilled and 80% average. It would be easier to make MA more balanced by limiting use of 5eny planes by 20% er than waiting for the other 80% to catch up, wich we honestly never will.
I would venture to say a lot more newbs in d9 or spit 16 would turn and fight a g14 or something along that line than another Spit 16 or god fobid La-7.
Define balance in regards to Aces High. Be specific, I know the general definition.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Vraciu on March 31, 2019, 04:44:48 PM
So funny watching people try to bypass Hitech when he locks a thread.
IN.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: novice on March 31, 2019, 05:21:30 PM
He locked it because well ppl did not contribute to it and it turned in to squeak out fest.
I meant the playerbase either its a Jock or guy flying with the mouse type of stuff. No middle class so to speak.
Then the same jocks are flying spit16 a average player not to mention a newb has no chance wining.
I first played 10 or so year ago. Could not turn to save my life and gv and bombers did not interest me a bit. Wanted to fly german planes and found a very good German squad to fly with, strictly german no other planes allowed in MA.
Meet a newb there , Yenny who joined at the same time and we had fun. Eventually because we could not do turny stuff we gravitated to 190d and flew as wingman. Became good at it and ppl squeaked so much about two of us picking we got thrown out of the squad.
I quit playing shortly there after so did Yenny he came back few year later judging by the post here. Never heard from him since.
So there is no mechanism in place to teach ppl how to play, newbs cant turn fight then when they turn to picking everyone crys for help.
You got to try and see this from newbs perspective as well.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on March 31, 2019, 05:29:01 PM
So you think there should trainers and a training arena and maybe a trainer's website to help players?
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Vraciu on March 31, 2019, 05:50:53 PM
Hitech needs a step by step arrow pointer with captions for newbies to give them a tour to demonstrate how everything works.
I've tried to help dozens of people crashed on the side of the runway firing their guns or stuck at the runway spawn doing the same. They can't even figure out how to type HELP.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: novice on March 31, 2019, 05:56:09 PM
Having a training session or two is not going to help a newb get better , it takes hours upon hours of playing to get any better.
What Vracio is saying instructional. Took me days to take of and it was in a Stuka at that. Not sure how it is nowdays time with a trainer was super hard to schedule and get I had only one TA session before I quit
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: novice on March 31, 2019, 06:02:11 PM
This youtube chanell thought me more than 200 hours of flying around and getting killed it has the visual aids necessary. Why cant we get something like that in a AH tutorial
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: TWCAxew on March 31, 2019, 06:35:37 PM
Well I am of the opinion the average player is not the one that complains about the usage of the boring plane's. It's the better skilled player that complains because they know the flow of the game more than anything and can point there finger to the problem. However the average player has the same frustrations but can't name the problem as well.
There is a group of players that make the game a dragg to play. It's not necessary that these player's are good, but the way they fly and certain planes will make them never do anything else that be midiocer and put the game in a state of hit and run. Whiles I do not want anyone to have to change there flying style I do think for the betterment of the game and all players these plane's should be more limited. Just like 262 or tempest but still somewhat accessible by all player's. One or two perkies should do or any of the k/d flowing perk systems. Slower planes promote fights.
I was disappointed to see the other thread was locked because I thought it was civil for an AH discussion.
Ps: I always thought that was a great YouTube channel
DutchVII
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: DmonSlyr on March 31, 2019, 06:40:42 PM
How is paying 5 perks being penalized?
And that's IF you die.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on March 31, 2019, 06:49:42 PM
Having a training session or two is not going to help a newb get better , it takes hours upon hours of playing to get any better.
What Vracio is saying instructional. Took me days to take of and it was in a Stuka at that. Not sure how it is nowdays time with a trainer was super hard to schedule and get I had only one TA session before I quit
A training session is exactly what helps a newbie get better. You need to know what to practice.
Some people prefer reading, some prefer videos, but text and videos can't look at what you're doing and correct it.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: TWCAxew on March 31, 2019, 07:25:14 PM
Saying there is no problem would be a lie. Especially when you fly on the of hours which are slowly becoming more and more the default state of the game. Americans never acknowledge this in the past but more and more are starting to realize something has to be done. Even HiTech himself. Why else was the new radar introduced?
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Chalenge on March 31, 2019, 07:35:25 PM
Asking for a rules change to benefit your style of play has never passed the smell test here. Never will.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on March 31, 2019, 07:46:29 PM
Well I am of the opinion the average player is not the one that complains about the usage of the boring plane's. It's the better skilled player that complains because they know the flow of the game more than anything and can point there finger to the problem. However the average player has the same frustrations but can't name the problem as well.
There is a group of players that make the game a dragg to play. It's not necessary that these player's are good, but the way they fly and certain planes will make them never do anything else that be midiocer and put the game in a state of hit and run. Whiles I do not want anyone to have to change there flying style I do think for the betterment of the game and all players these plane's should be more limited. Just like 262 or tempest but still somewhat accessible by all player's. One or two perkies should do or any of the k/d flowing perk systems. Slower planes promote fights.
I was disappointed to see the other thread was locked because I thought it was civil for an AH discussion.
Ps: I always thought that was a great YouTube channel
DutchVII
This is a lot like the complaints about HO shots or flying easy mode planes. It's always for the "good of the game" but it always makes it harder for the new player and easier for the experienced player to get kills.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FESS67 on March 31, 2019, 08:09:32 PM
The main issue appears to be in agreeing if there is a problem or not. Once that is defined then we can explore solutions.
I think there is a general shift to hit and run style flying. Even with the same aircraft, say 51 v 51, the prevelance is to hit and run and to avoid marginal combat situations. We see this in a mix of new and experienced players. Late war planes feature heavily as they have top end speeds that suit the tactic.
For me it leads to boring game play. For others it is how they stay alive and for them it is fun.
How do we make it fun for both sides of the argument?
I cancelled my sub on the weekend after chasing runners around for 90 minutes. Just not fun for me.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Devil 505 on March 31, 2019, 08:37:30 PM
Perk everything with an ENY less than 15. Wipe all accrued points so that everyone starts with zero. The price paid on a plane is permanent - no refund if landed successfully. They are spent as soon as you spawn.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: novice on March 31, 2019, 08:43:50 PM
We are just discussing options here, brainstorming as it were. No ones perks are in jeopardy or way of life as it were. Just a healthy discussion.
I personaly am happy with the way things are if We are being horded by two sides I switch to other side, if a person runs for more than 10 seconds I disengage. If nothing is working out I log off. That does not mean we should not at least have a discussion about what would potentially make the game better.
Id love to have back 3 diff arenas early mid and late but alas we dont have enough players.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Oldman731 on March 31, 2019, 08:57:27 PM
Just because a player is "skilled", they shouldn't be penalized.
Why not? Handicaps and seeds are customary in many sports. Why not here?
I think it's a great idea. I suspect most of the vets would agree with me. But perhaps not. If not, why not?
- oldman
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: atlau on March 31, 2019, 09:05:50 PM
A perk plane rental fee would be appropriate even if returning the plane undamaged. I'm pretty sure at the current price the -4 can almost basically pay for itself.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on March 31, 2019, 09:48:27 PM
Why not? Handicaps and seeds are customary in many sports. Why not here?
I think it's a great idea. I suspect most of the vets would agree with me. But perhaps not. If not, why not?
- oldman
Because the MA isn't a sporting contest. It's possible to compete in the MA, some do, but everyone isn't there for that.
The sporting contest would be a dueling ladder or KOTH.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: pembquist on March 31, 2019, 10:26:16 PM
I have long thought it would be nice to have a handicap system but sentiment is strongly against it and in the MA I can understand why, it isn't really a golf tournament but a sand box for over age children to play capture the flag and kill the carrier. Unfortunately right now there isn't a strong enough player base to have an arena with handicapping but if there were I think it would be a great thing. It is hard to learn or even enjoy the game if you are routinely slaughtered by good players flying good planes. Rare is the person who will put in the time to climb out to a fight for 10 minutes only to day over and over and not give up, this might be a feature not a bug but it is a problem for getting players to second base before they drop out. I don't think penalizing the good pilots is going to make them very happy so maybe you could consider making it easier for low time pilots. I think of airspawns for pilots who don't have any kills and die a lot, sort of reverse handicapping. I definitely am against any of the "crew experience modifier" BS that games like War Thunder use, I don't think the experience of flying and shooting should be any different between players ever. The perk thing I don't think is that big a deal, or rather monkeying with it doesn't seem like it would do much. If there is a problem it is that the game play can get shaped by everybody being in a Yak3 LA7 such that everybody begins flying to deal with Yak3 and LA7s. That is hard to do for us mediocre pilots and if we don't want to die it means we have to speed up and fly conservative with large margins of error which makes things less fun overall. I don't have a solution for that except something that makes the flight to death less tedious and time consuming.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: The Fugitive on March 31, 2019, 10:33:58 PM
TO me there are two problems with this game that drive me nuts,
1) not enough players. I am soooooo happy I dont live in Europe as I would have left this game years ago. We need new blood.
2) the aces. We have a number of players that are VERY good at what they do. So much so that many have brought out the "C" word on many of them. With thousands of hours under their belts they have become very good at their preferred style of play. The "pickers" know all the tricks on how players try to avoid them, the turners know all the trick to out turn planes they "shouldn't" out turn.
The game is slowly dying away because new players get frustrated with the learning curve and with getting killed all the time. The "aces" dont help anything by going around in their uber planes picking or out turning everyone to rack up kills.
I have been here years and as an "average" so called "pilot", get frustrated by trying to dodge pickers while fighting 1,2, or more guys. Getting HOed be every Yak and spit16 in the game. Can you imagine what a newbi thinks through the same thing? Its any wonder anyone stays past the 2 week free period.
Im not going to bother to suggest a solution because I know how far that flys, but I hope something is done one way or another.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on March 31, 2019, 10:39:22 PM
Typically what makes everything more fun is a wingman or squad. Then, if you don't like the map or whatever in the MA you have someone to fly with or against in another arena.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on March 31, 2019, 10:47:01 PM
Here's why Johnny can't fly. I blame Disney. This is completely wrong. :old:
Typically what makes everything more fun is a wingman or squad. Then, if you don't like the map or whatever in the MA you have someone to fly with or against in another arena.
True, but squads arent what they use to be. The "pigs" are what they are, and so are the "Jokers", but after them who do you really see as a squad that works together? The 56th are a great bunch of guys and I love flying with them in that fat lady, but we rarely have more than 2 guys flying any more. The AKs where a thorn in many a side, but I rarely see them up in force these days.
Squads arent what they use to be, and many a new player isn't welcomed like they use to be.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on March 31, 2019, 11:08:11 PM
The state of a particular squad is irrelevant to the point. Pembquist lamented the solo experience, a wingman fixes that.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: DmonSlyr on March 31, 2019, 11:46:36 PM
I always thought putting an ENY score % in the ranks as a metric was a good idea. (Also taking out K/T for attack). This would slow players only being able to use 5 eny planes to achieve a high rank. This is a good idea because it doesn't "force someone to fly as you want them to" arguement. It doesn't keep people out of their precious. It means players who want to achieve a higher rank have to fly earlier and mid war planes. Is that something we could all agree on?
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: TWCAxew on April 01, 2019, 12:15:30 AM
This is a lot like the complaints about HO shots or flying easy mode planes. It's always for the "good of the game" but it always makes it harder for the new player and easier for the experienced player to get kills.
How is this making the game harder for new players? Actually limiting the plane set would make weaker planes more competitive. For an e fighter you need to understand the basics. For a turnie plane you can go at your opponent and have fun without understanding the plane. So I totally disagree with you. The game becomes easier for a new player because of this reason.
Putting my post away as a complaint that's on the same level as a ho shot or ez planes makes me think you don't understand the gravity of the issue and why it's a big problem.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FESS67 on April 01, 2019, 01:49:30 AM
I will reiterate my post. What is the problem? What is the dilemma being created by late war planes?
I am hearing many solutions but until you properly define the problem your solutions are likely to miss the mark. Here is my personal take on it.
Recently my gameplay has become mostly about evading high speed hit and run passes or chasing fast aircraft around the arena. This gameplay allows me to practice my defensive moves however I rarely get the chance to hit back or get into more aggressive fights. It is unbalanced, makes for a boring / frustrating game session and I have now reached the point where it is preferable to go play a different game. I believe the high top end speeds of the later war planes makes the practice more widespread.
That is my problem statement. Yours may vary. There may be many ways to reduce / eliminate the problem however as I said previously, until we can agree on the problem we will never agree on a solution.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: BuckShot on April 01, 2019, 06:45:58 AM
Perk everything with an ENY less than 15. Wipe all accrued points so that everyone starts with zero. The price paid on a plane is permanent - no refund if landed successfully. They are spent as soon as you spawn.
This, and perk the 51. To many flying around.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on April 01, 2019, 09:14:57 AM
How is this making the game harder for new players?....
Who has perks to burn? It's not new players. The players doing BnZ don't need to use a perk plane but they can. If they could only get away in perk planes they'd likely use perks instead of changing their game play.
I'm just pointing out how the unintended consequences consistently favor the experienced players. The argument is always that the new players will benefit in the long run, if they stick around long enough, but the immediate consequence is more difficulty for new players.
...I believe the high top end speeds of the later war planes makes the practice more widespread. ...
It's not the speed of the late war aircraft so much as the differences in speed in the plane set and the fact that slower planes generally turn better. Few people want to stall fight a Ki-84 in a P-51.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on April 01, 2019, 09:20:41 AM
I always thought putting an ENY score % in the ranks as a metric was a good idea. (Also taking out K/T for attack). This would slow players only being able to use 5 eny planes to achieve a high rank. This is a good idea because it doesn't "force someone to fly as you want them to" arguement. It doesn't keep people out of their precious. It means players who want to achieve a higher rank have to fly earlier and mid war planes. Is that something we could all agree on?
This would only affect people who care about rank. Is that the group of people ruining dogfighting?
We don't all need to agree with a good idea, you just have to convince Hitech it would improve the game. :aok
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Ciaphas on April 01, 2019, 09:55:26 AM
It seems to me that a playing style is trying to be changed via legislation (rules). This has worked in the history of never.
be careful what you wish for, every rule has both a positive and a negative outcome.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: DmonSlyr on April 01, 2019, 11:32:50 AM
See rule #2
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: DmonSlyr on April 01, 2019, 11:37:34 AM
See rule #2
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on April 01, 2019, 11:47:56 AM
K/T is a useful metric because people don't all have the same amount of time available to play. Removing it effectively penalizes people with jobs and families.
If you don't worry about fast kills you don't need to stay and fight, you can extend and come back later. Seems like that could promote BnZ in fast late war aircraft in attack mode.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: waystin2 on April 01, 2019, 11:51:51 AM
Any plane flown by a veteran player well is dangerous. Limiting these planes for everyone is not a good idea. Running is not the problem, out thinking the the fellows that choose not to engage unless they think they have advantage is. Catch them climbing out. Catch them low and run them down. Force them in the wrong direction and run them down. There is a ton of options. Limiting lower ENY planes for a vocal minorities entertainment instead of the planes actual impact and usage in the melee is not needed. Lower the ENY but PERKS ARE NOT NEEDED ON ANY OF THESE PLANES.
It's not the style that is being changed. Id love to see BnZers in P47d25s, 190A5s, 109G14s, Typhoons, Ta152s, Hurricanes, and P38s. The fact is, those planes don't Gallup away as well when you lose advantage, therefore, the speed of higher performance plane allows them to not have to care as much about flying smart. If I flew a 190D for a month and videod every sortie, would that help Hitech determine if the ENY should be lowered? That would provide all of the data he'd need.
But it is the style that you wish to change or these planes wouldn't be an issue. This game isn't a jousting match set up in front of the kings court, people are going to people regardless of the restrictions placed on aircraft.
I would recommend gathering video data to show the issue to Dale and see what he has to say about it. After all, video proof is way better than verbal proof and it will validate your position much better.
:salute
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: DmonSlyr on April 01, 2019, 12:31:36 PM
K/T is a useful metric because people don't all have the same amount of time available to play. Removing it effectively penalizes people with jobs and families.
If you don't worry about fast kills you don't need to stay and fight, you can extend and come back later. Seems like that could promote BnZ in fast late war aircraft in attack mode.
In fighter mode, fine, your first point doesn't make sense though. In attack mode it makes little sense. Especially for the off hours. If I go Jabo a base with no one there, I am being penalized for not getting any kills in a quick amount of time when all I wanted to was attack a base. Why should kills/time even matter?
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: bustr on April 01, 2019, 12:39:47 PM
How much of this is an off hours problem?
POTW flies USA prime time and there really are no problems finding planes to fight during the USA window. And like Waystin pointed out, if we get tired of hit and runaway enough, we do something about it which is it's own fun.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Vraciu on April 01, 2019, 12:41:24 PM
See rule #2
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: DmonSlyr on April 01, 2019, 12:41:58 PM
But it is the style that you wish to change or these planes wouldn't be an issue. This game isn't a jousting match set up in front of the kings court, people are going to people regardless of the restrictions placed on aircraft.
I would recommend gathering video data to show the issue to Dale and see what he has to say about it. After all, video proof is way better than verbal proof and it will validate your position much better.
:salute
I can promise you the "style" didn't work out very well in the combat challenge the other night when allied P4711s and P38Gs couldnt so easily run from thr G6s and G2, you had to really make sure you had the speed and E before entering the furball as the BnZ P47s/38Gs could not out turn the 109s, It didn't work out so well for the less patient, thus the #s for the allied dropped to 5 vs 18 in the final 30 minutes. In the first hour, we had Hurricanes and spit5s vs the 109f, 110, and C202. The fight was much more balanced because all of these planes had relatively the same fighter ability.
Now, imagine If we had been using the P47M/38Ls vs the G6s and G2s. Then we would have all been able to run and not worry about getting tracked down after a dive. This is how the 190D is to most of the planes in the MA.
The CC is really a great representative of how planes react in a furball setting and which tactics work best for each plane to stay alive. Players cannot so easily just hit X and run, so it makes it fun for all players, even though it's a little more challenging for the allied as they normally started with alt and #s in the real war and did not want to furball down low.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Vraciu on April 01, 2019, 12:42:37 PM
The main issue appears to be in agreeing if there is a problem or not. Once that is defined then we can explore solutions.
I think there is a general shift to hit and run style flying. Even with the same aircraft, say 51 v 51, the prevelance is to hit and run and to avoid marginal combat situations. We see this in a mix of new and experienced players. Late war planes feature heavily as they have top end speeds that suit the tactic.
For me it leads to boring game play. For others it is how they stay alive and for them it is fun.
How do we make it fun for both sides of the argument?
I cancelled my sub on the weekend after chasing runners around for 90 minutes. Just not fun for me.
Boo. :(
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Ack-Ack on April 01, 2019, 01:26:28 PM
I always thought putting an ENY score % in the ranks as a metric was a good idea. (Also taking out K/T for attack). This would slow players only being able to use 5 eny planes to achieve a high rank. This is a good idea because it doesn't "force someone to fly as you want them to" arguement. It doesn't keep people out of their precious. It means players who want to achieve a higher rank have to fly earlier and mid war planes. Is that something we could all agree on?
Why do you insist on wanting to force players what to fly? You claim you don't but then put forth they must fly a certain era plane in order to increase score.
So no, we don't all agree in it because it is a bad idea and nothing more than your typical and predictable idea of trying to force players how you'd like them to fight and what to fly.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: bustr on April 01, 2019, 01:55:02 PM
At least he is "trying" to get buy in, though too often today when someone makes the statement: Is that something we could all agree on? First thing you do is check your wallet then count your fingers, then your arms and legs. If he was being agreed with he would not need to resort to buy in 101 rhetoric.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on April 01, 2019, 01:56:24 PM
In fighter mode, fine, your first point doesn't make sense though. In attack mode it makes little sense. Especially for the off hours. If I go Jabo a base with no one there, I am being penalized for not getting any kills in a quick amount of time when all I wanted to was attack a base. Why should kills/time even matter?
If K/T is eliminated then the person flying all day has an advantage over the person flying for one hour.
Currently if you don't get any kills while flying in attack mode your K/T goes down. The penalty is the effect on your attack ranking.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: DmonSlyr on April 01, 2019, 02:08:59 PM
If K/T is eliminated then the person flying all day has an advantage over the person flying for one hour.
Currently if you don't get any kills while flying in attack mode your K/T goes down. The penalty is the effect on your attack ranking.
Which again, defeats the purpose of attack ranking.... Why would I want to attack a base with no enemies knowing it's going effect my score? Why should I have to get timed on kills for flying a Boston or TU2 to go attack a base, who cares how long they fly?
A person flying all day could still get 12 K/H and be #5 in that category where as a person flying for an hour could only get 1 or 2 kills and have a #400 rank, your understanding doesn't really address what I am talking about.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: DmonSlyr on April 01, 2019, 02:18:42 PM
Why do you insist on wanting to force players what to fly? You claim you don't but then put forth they must fly a certain era plane in order to increase score.
So no, we don't all agree in it because it is a bad idea and nothing more than your typical and predictable idea of trying to force players how you'd like them to fight and what to fly.
It's not forcing anyone to do anything. If you want to have a good score, you have to also fly lower eny planes. If you don't care about score than it doesn't matter does it?
It's just an incentive to get the better pilots in lower eny planes If they want to have a better rank. I don't see how that hurts anyone and it will bring another level of skill to the ranking.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on April 01, 2019, 02:27:17 PM
Which again, defeats the purpose of attack ranking.... Why would I want to attack a base with no enemies knowing it's going effect my score? Why should I have to get timed on kills for flying a Boston or TU2 to go attack a base, who cares how long they fly?
A person flying all day could still get 12 K/H and be #5 in that category where as a person flying for an hour could only get 1 or 2 kills and have a #400 rank, your understanding doesn't really address what I am talking about.
A player getting 12 K/H all day should have a higher rank than a player getting 2 kills in an hour, assuming for discussion the other metrics are equal, so I'm missing your point.
Another thing to keep in mind is that nobody says everything is perfect. Nobody likes to see their target run away even though the target might enjoy it. The issue is not if there is a problem or if everyone can see the problem. The issue pushing back is the possibility of the cure being worse than the disease.
It's not forcing anyone to do anything. If you want to have a good score, you have to also fly lower eny planes. If you don't care about score than it doesn't matter does it?
It's just an incentive to get the better pilots in lower eny planes If they want to have a better rank. I don't see how that hurts anyone and it will bring another level of skill to the ranking.
As you said, the incentive would only be for people who care about rank. Is that the group who's behavior needs to change?
There is a group of pilots who BnZ in fast late war planes.
There is a group of pilots who care about score.
What's the overlap? Is it sufficient that incentives for the second group change the behavior of the first group?
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: DmonSlyr on April 01, 2019, 03:14:33 PM
See rule #4
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: DmonSlyr on April 01, 2019, 03:40:30 PM
See rule #5
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Vraciu on April 01, 2019, 03:47:50 PM
See rule #4
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: ACE on April 01, 2019, 03:52:45 PM
See rule #14
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on April 01, 2019, 03:59:52 PM
See rule #4
« Last Edit: Today at 16:05 by hitech »
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: ACE on April 01, 2019, 04:16:36 PM
You can’t even make wishes anymore without him locking it down.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on April 01, 2019, 04:18:58 PM
As you said, the incentive would only be for people who care about rank. Is that the group who's behavior needs to change?
It is a group where change could be induced without too many side effects. Because everyone can freely choose if the effects apply or not. It doesn't sound like adding an incentive to fly higher-eny planes for score-lovers would actually hurt anyone. Neither anyone ignoring score, nor anyone flying for score (because everyone flying for score has to fulfill the same rules, and as such the playing field is kept level).
Quote
There is a group of pilots who BnZ in fast late war planes.
There is a group of pilots who care about score.
What's the overlap? Is it sufficient that incentives for the second group change the behavior of the first group?
There's some overlap, but both have a very low overlap with the large group that actually plays the team objective, and neither flies fast BnZ planes nor cares too much for score.
Would I prefer my opponent to play the objective, too, or would I prefer my opponent to just BnZ? Obviously, the latter. An opponent that works on a different goal is much less of a problem than one who actively works against my goal. But then an opponent that just plays for score (or a sub-part thereof, or landed kills, or similar) has a choice of tools that can be a lot more fine-tuned for the a2a engagement than any choice to play the team objective could ever be.
The objective and the way the game are played are two separate things. Whatever the objective may be, the way it is played is by some kind of fight (excluding resupply, but that's another topic). And those fights come with an imbalance between players playing the team objective and players playing the score objective.
And thus it would make a lot of sense to add some incentive to score to fly lesser planes, just like playing the team objective basically requires specific plane choices for the intended purpose.
To make that really work, the value used for score should be pure a2a capability. ENY today also depends on the ability to carry ordnance. Probably not because its much more an achievement to shoot down a plane that can carry bombs to earn more perk points, but maybe to make sense for the ENY limiter / side balancer (which didn't exist when the ENY values were invented; I think ordnance-carrying ability has always led to lower values).
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on April 02, 2019, 06:17:33 PM
One issue would be the people flying for score being in slower planes than the people flying to hunt them.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: novice on April 02, 2019, 08:40:29 PM
Here is a little sample of lame play
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Ciaphas on April 02, 2019, 08:48:22 PM
I hung my self because I was bored and want to look like easy target in order to lure him in to a turn fight. He was better than I thought.
I posted the video to show how boring it can be if there are not enough pilots on.
but you were just orbiting, those dudes would have followed you down if you had chosen to take that route. The guys below you seemed to be in a decent fight.
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Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: The Fugitive on April 02, 2019, 09:08:13 PM
You hung yourself vertical, was an easy kill for the enemy. With as slow as you kept that aircraft, what did you want the cons to do?
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Sure he shouldnt have gone vertical for the spit, but I can see his point. HO attempt after HO attempt. Both of the first two guys had the advantage, as well as the spit, and ALL went for the HO. After that the others didnt engage, they ran. Typical game play these days. Boring, frustrating, and more than likely something that will make a player look for a new game to play.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: novice on April 02, 2019, 09:21:48 PM
I was orbiting? You saw me take of from a field and climb up to the only to be repeadetly slash attacked by 3 diff airplanes.
And no there was no fight down below. Once they did not get me in one pass they would come down strafe the field and extend and only return 3-5 later screamng in at 300 plus.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Oldman731 on April 02, 2019, 09:32:06 PM
I was orbiting? You saw me take of from a field and climb up to the only to be repeadetly slash attacked by 3 diff airplanes.
And no there was no fight down below. Once they did not get me in one pass they would come down strafe the field and extend and only return 3-5 later screamng in at 300 plus.
Not that I'm anyone's idea of an expert, but from an average player's POV:
You're flying an EZ plane. You shouldn't expect anyone to get down and dirty with you, except for the Yak3 (which is a beginner's plane, so you expect that sort of piloting) and the Spit16 (flown by people who should have more pride). I suspect that from the Spit's POV you were in the middle of your turn, so it wasn't a pure HO. But even if it were: The HO discussion has been in progress since AH gave you a chance to pull it off. That takes us back 20 years (more?). You either avoid it or you assume that the opponent will be gracious and not take the shot.
Warning: If the opponent does NOT take the shot, you could be in some serious trouble, because he/she probably has enough background that you may be faced with a problem.
And congrats to you, Novice, for having the courage to put this out in front of the jackal crowd.
- oldman
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLOOB on April 02, 2019, 09:33:33 PM
If you perk the current top 5 non perked planes people are just going to start complaining about the new top five non perked planes.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on April 02, 2019, 09:38:27 PM
Sure he shouldnt have gone vertical for the spit, but I can see his point. HO attempt after HO attempt. Both of the first two guys had the advantage, as well as the spit, and ALL went for the HO. After that the others didnt engage, they ran. Typical game play these days. Boring, frustrating, and more than likely something that will make a player look for a new game to play.
if they ran, there would not have been repeat attempts at the HO.
Perhaps I'm seeing it wrong.
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Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: novice on April 02, 2019, 10:11:44 PM
Point is some people just play like that and its not fun. No other complaint, and I did not say he hoed me I basicaly killed mysef because he would not make a move. Dont blame him for anything.
Ki-84 is easy mode , dont question your knowledge of the subject just I dont see no one flying them, or I should say not as often.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Ciaphas on April 02, 2019, 10:21:38 PM
If a pilot has alt and dives in to attack and is going way to fast to turn fight what are they supposed to do?
As of this point I'm unsure what they are supposed to do because the issue is not as static as some are making it out to be. It's pretty dynamic and there is no one single approach that is going to work because a wide brush doesn't bother with the details of a setting.
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Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: novice on April 02, 2019, 10:43:44 PM
Well I guess you are waiting for me to say this so here it goes:
Nothing I expect them to bnz me all day long.....
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Ciaphas on April 02, 2019, 10:44:50 PM
Well I guess you are waiting for me to say this so here it goes:
Nothing I expect them to bnz me all day long.....
no not at all, it was a genuine question and not a loaded one.
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Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: novice on April 02, 2019, 11:02:10 PM
Ohh sorry,
I know 190 be stupid to turn in any way but 51 somewhat ,but yak3 and spit16 are capable of turning with ki, at least for a turn or two. But these guys flew like its skys over berlin 1944 One swoop and gone.
Its just booring as hell, honestly that sortie lasted 9 min if I did not record that i would say that was 20 min it was so boring.
I just thougt the clip is in my opinion a representative of what some ppl are complaining about.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on April 02, 2019, 11:14:40 PM
The complaint isn't a mystery that requires video. :D
Here's a little thought experiment. Imagine the game play you call lame is actually normal, historically accurate, behavior in the MA. Now, instead of complaining about it, you try to figure out how to counter these frustrating tactics without calling on a higher power.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: guncrasher on April 02, 2019, 11:58:31 PM
Sure he shouldnt have gone vertical for the spit, but I can see his point. HO attempt after HO attempt. Both of the first two guys had the advantage, as well as the spit, and ALL went for the HO. After that the others didnt engage, they ran. Typical game play these days. Boring, frustrating, and more than likely something that will make a player look for a new game to play.
i have never and i can swear this on a an ah manual, i have never ho'd a guy who wasnt coming straight at me, and I can guarantee you that nobody in this game has ever ho'd a plane that wasnt coming at him.
years ago when i used to fly the spit8 and i was semi-ok, i once got into a fight with about 8 fighters, i got 3 of them just by luck and I was never ho'd once, because if i saw a plane coming straight at me, i would turn dive, go left or right, but not once was I ho'd.
semp
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Ack-Ack on April 03, 2019, 01:22:37 AM
if they ran, there would not have been repeat attempts at the HO.
Perhaps I'm seeing it wrong.
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It was more of the case that the 3 bandits don't know to properly use Boom and Zoom tactics. BnZ, properly done, is an aggressive tactic used to deplete the opponents energy to set up the killing shot.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Ciaphas on April 03, 2019, 10:21:36 AM
It was more of the case that the 3 bandits don't know to properly use Boom and Zoom tactics. BnZ, properly done, is an aggressive tactic used to deplete the opponents energy to set up the killing shot.
I agree, my point was that there wasn't a hit and run going on in the film.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on April 03, 2019, 10:38:06 AM
The video shows a classic situation. The player picks a slower plane that turns better and complains that faster planes choose appropriate tactics.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on April 03, 2019, 10:39:35 AM
The video shows a classic situation. The player picks a slower plane that turns better and complains that faster planes choose appropriate tactics.
Disagree. The Yak3 and Spit16 are both at least as dogfight-capable as the Frank. They were just moving on for easier picks. I'm assuming that both were piloted by relatively inexperienced people, so there's nothing per se wrong with that, but I don't consider that they were using appropriate tactics.
- oldman
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on April 03, 2019, 11:48:16 AM
Look at the energy difference. The OP was low and slow in a 4 cannon plane that's a better slow turner and he wasn't the only threat or target.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: novice on April 03, 2019, 12:10:16 PM
I started low and climbed to 9k while evading attacs and my speed was above 200 and peaked at 230. And no Ki has 2 cannons
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on April 03, 2019, 12:46:43 PM
I started low and climbed to 9k while evading attacs and my speed was above 200 and peaked at 230. And no Ki has 2 cannons
Good catch. It's the Nik2 with 4. My point remains with 2 less cannon. You put yourself in a position where the bandits can dictate the fight and you didn't like their choices.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: TWCAxew on April 03, 2019, 12:58:23 PM
Novice aren't you more upset in this case about the HO's where they where not needed by the 190 and the Yak? That looked lame by them.
But on the other hand i do think in this video's case you should have tried to build up some more energy, i think it was to low in most cases so you didn't really gave yourself a real way with dealing with there attacks. just being constructive.
DutchVII
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: novice on April 03, 2019, 02:13:07 PM
I did , I usually do it intentionalyto draw a fight, I fly 4-5k waiting for someone to latch on and hopefully fights on. We are getting side tracked here a bit but to sum it up.
Its a game and games should be fun, that is not fun for me or even if it was the other way around if I was a picker. I upped 190d last night and yeah I died zero times got a 4-5 kills but it took me forever and 3 maybee 4 sorties.
FSO I get the reality part is important and there I would do simillar thing due to one life and having to fly for 2 hours to get to the engagement.
I merely posted the video to show what others were saying not because “ They suck , the guy who shot me down is a $&@&,or that he hoed me ” (insert whatever the popular rant is)
It is BORING and a waste of time.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: novice on April 03, 2019, 02:17:08 PM
The video shows a classic situation. The player picks a slower plane that turns better and complains that faster planes choose appropriate tactics.
So you are saying I should run from every plane that turns better than me? Hell no ill turn with whatever and if I get killed because that guy in spit 8 or 5 is good instead of a newb so be it.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: novice on April 03, 2019, 02:20:27 PM
Novice aren't you more upset in this case about the HO's where they where not needed by the 190 and the Yak? That looked lame by them.
But on the other hand i do think in this video's case you should have tried to build up some more energy, i think it was to low in most cases so you didn't really gave yourself a real way with dealing with there attacks. just being constructive.
DutchVII
Yeah I agree with you l, ultimately had I known the type of players I would have upped K4 instead. They did kinda go for the front, but avoided it best I could.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Wiley on April 03, 2019, 02:35:03 PM
If only there were someplace that people could go to get a 1v1 coalt fair fight in comparable aircraft.
That place is not the Melee Arena. It is there for people to do whatever they can with whatever they've got. Expect the HO. Expect them to come in with alt. Expect them to gang. People are there (theoretically) to move mud and/or control the area. They are going to do whatever the physics and arena will allow them to.
They are generally there to kill you by any means necessary, whether it be with their guns or dragging you to something else that can kill you. How it happens is immaterial. If you die, their mission is accomplished.
If that's not what you're there for, perhaps you need to look at popularizing one of the other arenas that has gameplay more to your liking.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Ack-Ack on April 03, 2019, 02:39:07 PM
So you are saying I should run from every plane that turns better than me? Hell no ill turn with whatever and if I get killed because that guy in spit 8 or 5 is good instead of a newb so be it.
I think he's saying that if you knew the appropriate tactic, you wouldn't need to disengage and run from a plane with better maneuverability or speed. The game is more than turn and burn.
An example is your tale about flying the Dora. You complained it took you a long time getting your kills with multiple sorties. Had you flown correctly using the proper tactics, those kills would have been gained in a single sortie.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: waystin2 on April 03, 2019, 03:56:16 PM
If you got shot down and you can't admit that YOU made a mistake that got you to the tower. You will never improve beyond the paper bag your currently trying to fight your way out of. :aok
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: CptTrips on April 03, 2019, 04:01:26 PM
If only there were someplace that people could go to get a 1v1 coalt fair fight in comparable aircraft.
That place is not the Melee Arena. It is there for people to do whatever they can with whatever they've got. Expect the HO. Expect them to come in with alt. Expect them to gang. People are there (theoretically) to move mud and/or control the area. They are going to do whatever the physics and arena will allow them to.
They are generally there to kill you by any means necessary, whether it be with their guns or dragging you to something else that can kill you. How it happens is immaterial. If you die, their mission is accomplished.
If that's not what you're there for, perhaps you need to look at popularizing one of the other arenas that has gameplay more to your liking.
Wiley.
Thank you.
You have won the Internet today.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Ciaphas on April 03, 2019, 04:14:38 PM
If only there were someplace that people could go to get a 1v1 coalt fair fight in comparable aircraft.
That place is not the Melee Arena. It is there for people to do whatever they can with whatever they've got. Expect the HO. Expect them to come in with alt. Expect them to gang. People are there (theoretically) to move mud and/or control the area. They are going to do whatever the physics and arena will allow them to.
They are generally there to kill you by any means necessary, whether it be with their guns or dragging you to something else that can kill you. How it happens is immaterial. If you die, their mission is accomplished.
If that's not what you're there for, perhaps you need to look at popularizing one of the other arenas that has gameplay more to your liking.
Wiley.
+1
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Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on April 03, 2019, 04:19:47 PM
Don't chase novice from the MA. A shift from paying customers to MPA freeloaders would not be good for AH III. :old:
I recommend promoting a new sense of challenge where everything isn't about a fair 1 on 1 joust (it has it's place in development - it's just not the be all/end all thing).
:cheers: :airplane: :joystick: :banana:
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Wiley on April 03, 2019, 04:41:47 PM
Don't chase novice from the MA. A shift from paying customers to MPA freeloaders would not be good for AH III. :old:
I recommend promoting a new sense of challenge where everything isn't about a fair 1 on 1 joust (it has it's place in development - it's just not the be all/end all thing).
:cheers: :airplane: :joystick: :banana:
How HTC structures their payment plan isn't particularly my concern. I just really, really wish people would stop trying to bend the free for all melee arena around their desire to have some kind of "fair fight" however they choose to define it. We are not Chuck Norris waiting for the bad guys to form an orderly line to defeat us 1v1. In the Melee, we're just another dweeb in the ecosystem.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on April 03, 2019, 04:45:10 PM
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: TWCAxew on April 03, 2019, 04:47:08 PM
No one is saying they are looking for a 1v1 experience..... #MissingThePoint
DutchVII
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Shuffler on April 03, 2019, 04:48:50 PM
That is the good thing about flying a 38. If you are over the water, get really low and slow... everyone thinks you are a pontoon boat or fishing trawler with the booms out.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Wiley on April 03, 2019, 04:50:33 PM
No one is saying they are looking for a 1v1 experience..... #MissingThePoint
DutchVII
They are saying they want their version of a fair(er) fight though. With all the window dressing taken away, this discussion can be boiled down to "Please make BnZ less effective so I can turnfight with these guys."
Wiley.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Shuffler on April 03, 2019, 04:57:42 PM
They are saying they want their version of a fair(er) fight though. With all the window dressing taken away, this discussion can be boiled down to "Please make BnZ less effective so I can turnfight with these guys."
Wiley.
Maybe an alt limit of 4000 ft. :aok
Oh wait.... that is Monday Night Madness. :aok
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: ACE on April 03, 2019, 04:58:59 PM
That is the good thing about flying a 38. If you are over the water, get really low and slow... everyone thinks you are a pontoon boat or fishing trawler with the booms out.
Which model comes with a trolling motor? The G?
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: TWCAxew on April 03, 2019, 05:01:59 PM
They are saying they want their version of a fair(er) fight though. With all the window dressing taken away, this discussion can be boiled down to "Please make BnZ less effective so I can turnfight with these guys."
Wiley.
Well maybe it has. But i am still of the opinion it would do the game a favor if the uber planes would be perked, just so we see a little less of them. It doesn't have to disappear, but currently its the most effective way to fly and i don't think its the most fun to be around. Slower planes promote fight but people can still choose to get the uber planes if they choose to but just not 100% of the time. Even with the slower planes you can bnz but its just a little bit less effective. I also would love to see all planes to be used. We have so many but only 5% is really being used. I do think its a shame to exclude that content. People feel being forced to fly the best planes because other wise they feel they stand no chance.
I am no messiah i fly all styles from time to time and all planes but i feel like it would be a refreshing change of pace.
DutchVII
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Shuffler on April 03, 2019, 05:03:23 PM
Well maybe it has. But i am still of the opinion it would do the game a favor if the uber planes would be perked, just so we see a little less of them.
And that's the point of contention. People seem to be presenting that if we just perk problem planes x, y, and z, the tactics will change and it will usher in a renaissance of people learning ACM and turnfighting and love, edibles, and puppies for all.
I think it's way more likely the runners will just move to the next fastest plane and keep doing what they're doing. It will not change their behavior and if anything because the plane they're now flying is either perked or has less acceleration, they will fly even more conservatively.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on April 03, 2019, 05:11:25 PM
And that's the point of contention. People seem to be presenting that if we just perk problem planes x, y, and z, the tactics will change and it will usher in a renaissance of people learning ACM and turnfighting and love, edibles, and puppies for all.
I think it's way more likely the runners will just move to the next fastest plane and keep doing what they're doing. It will not change their behavior and if anything because the plane they're now flying is either perked or has less acceleration, they will fly even more conservatively.
^^^DING^^^DING^^^DING^^^ This. :aok :cheers:
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: CptTrips on April 03, 2019, 05:15:23 PM
There were no fights over Mig Alley? Those planes were pretty fast.
Is the problem people picking too fast of planes, or people picking too slow of planes?
If people wouldn't pick too slow of plane, they couldn't be out-run and that would promote fights.
So obviously the slow, uber-turny planes need to be perked for the good of the game.
:cool:
I cannot fault your logic. +1!
Wiley.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: novice on April 03, 2019, 05:34:29 PM
LMAO, again for the 100 time I did not blame anyone for me dying . I did not say I got hoed, or picked or anything else I litteraly said I killed my self out of boredom because no one would make any moves. That is all.
But ppl get bent out of shape because you suggest a mere IDEA of something changing,
Ohh if you were faster, ohh if you were lower, ohh if your bird was not so uber, ohh you if your bird was not so turny and had 4 cannons,ohh you almost got hoed,ohh you got picked. Really, really BORING
Discussion was not about what I did or did not do, im just assuming all ppl coming up for excuses are ok with the way thing are. So just say, I love it the way it is it is not boring, thats all.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: TWCAxew on April 03, 2019, 05:35:23 PM
And that's the point of contention. People seem to be presenting that if we just perk problem planes x, y, and z, the tactics will change and it will usher in a renaissance of people learning ACM and turnfighting and love, edibles, and puppies for all.
I think it's way more likely the runners will just move to the next fastest plane and keep doing what they're doing. It will not change their behavior and if anything because the plane they're now flying is either perked or has less acceleration, they will fly even more conservatively.
Wiley.
Good we are back on topic from us all telling novice he is flying the "wrong" way. :D
I still disagree. But we will only know who is right if HiTech would be willing to put it up for a test. Which i do find unlikely but crazier things have happened before.
In a more private setting i also have heard ideas for a rolling plane sets troughs the month and every week would unlock the next generation of planes until we get to the last week of the month where the pony's and Dora's rule the skies. A part of this idea was that the late war planes would still be accessible but for a very high perk amount in the early weeks.
DutchVII
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on April 03, 2019, 05:42:54 PM
So you are saying I should run from every plane that turns better than me? Hell no ill turn with whatever and if I get killed because that guy in spit 8 or 5 is good instead of a newb so be it.
No. I've never said that to anybody.
I always say everybody should play the way they want to.
See the huge difference?
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Wiley on April 03, 2019, 05:49:03 PM
Good we are back on topic from us all telling novice he is flying the "wrong" way. :D
I still disagree. But we will only know who is right if HiTech would be willing to put it up for a test. Which i do find unlikely but crazier things have happened before.
I think we got a microcosm of it with the Early and Mid War arenas in the backwhen. When people were in there, the gameplay didn't deviate much from what we see in the Late War.
Quote
In a more private setting i also have heard ideas for a rolling plane sets troughs the month and every week would unlock the next generation of planes until we get to the last week of the month where the pony's and Dora's rule the skies. A part of this idea was that the late war planes would still be accessible but for a very high perk amount in the early weeks.
DutchVII
People trot out the RPS idea every once in a while. When it was in Warbirds in the backwhen the general consensus seems to be it was resoundingly unpopular. The pony dweebs would likely leave en masse, for starters. Like you said the only way we'd know for sure is for HT to run a test. I'm skeptical he would.
But ppl get bent out of shape because you suggest a mere IDEA of something changing,
Discussion was not about what I did or did not do, im just assuming all ppl coming up for excuses are ok with the way thing are. So just say, I love it the way it is it is not boring, thats all.
No, the point you seem to be missing is that perking a few more planes will do little to nothing to alleviate the core of the problem which is behavior, not equipment. I think it is highly unlikely to produce the result you desire.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: TWCAxew on April 03, 2019, 05:56:29 PM
I think we got a microcosm of it with the Early and Mid War arenas in the backwhen. When people were in there, the gameplay didn't deviate much from what we see in the Late War.
I just remember it not being populated that much, thats after all the colored arena's we had. We still had enough for one arena. The times it was populated my feelings recall having massive fun and seeing less of what we are discussing. I also remember massive missions clashing into each other and that being fun, so i might be bias.
DutchVII
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: CptTrips on April 03, 2019, 05:59:11 PM
Discussion was not about what I did or did not do,
It is now. :D
Seriously, it's just as likely, perhaps more, that the real problem is it took those guys 15 minutes flight to get there at that alt. They don't want to risk anything that would send them all the way back to the tower again like Sisyphus.
If that's true, would putting them in a slower plane, that takes even longer, make it better or worse?
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Ciaphas on April 03, 2019, 06:07:45 PM
Perking a ride will not change the mentality of those flying it.
If this has been going on for as long as some say it has, why do people engage those airframes?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on April 03, 2019, 06:23:00 PM
LMAO, again for the 100 time I did not blame anyone for me dying . I did not say I got hoed, or picked or anything else I litteraly said I killed my self out of boredom because no one would make any moves. That is all.
But ppl get bent out of shape because you suggest a mere IDEA of something changing,
Ohh if you were faster, ohh if you were lower, ohh if your bird was not so uber, ohh you if your bird was not so turny and had 4 cannons,ohh you almost got hoed,ohh you got picked. Really, really BORING
Discussion was not about what I did or did not do, im just assuming all ppl coming up for excuses are ok with the way thing are. So just say, I love it the way it is it is not boring, thats all.
It's only the other guys that should be told how to fly. Got it. :D
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: novice on April 03, 2019, 06:29:06 PM
I think we got a microcosm of it with the Early and Mid War arenas in the backwhen. When people were in there, the gameplay didn't deviate much from what we see in the Late War.
People trot out the RPS idea every once in a while. When it was in Warbirds in the backwhen the general consensus seems to be it was resoundingly unpopular. The pony dweebs would likely leave en masse, for starters. Like you said the only way we'd know for sure is for HT to run a test. I'm skeptical he would.
No, the point you seem to be missing is that perking a few more planes will do little to nothing to alleviate the core of the problem which is behavior, not equipment. I think it is highly unlikely to produce the result you desire.
Wiley.
Thank you for bringing this back to topic.
It would be worth a try on temp basis,or is the concesus that everyone would throw their arms up and air and quit and thats too much of a risk?
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: CptTrips on April 03, 2019, 06:30:45 PM
Neither of which will not cost HT paying customers? This is still a business and he can't afford to run it based on a small minority of discontents. :old:
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: The Fugitive on April 03, 2019, 06:35:22 PM
Id be ok with the perks as they are and even have everyone fly the 5-6 planes we see for the most part now, if they would only FIGHT in them!
The one pass haul bellybutton crap is what gets the D9, pony, and such a bad reputation.
Suggestion, if you make a pass on another plane and fire your guns and extend beyond 2k from the plane you made a run on, then your plane blows up and your in the tower. :devil
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: novice on April 03, 2019, 06:39:02 PM
With all due respect Sir you are cotributing absolutely nothing to this discussion so far
Nonsense. I'm just not contributing any agreement to your failure to transcend self-interest.
The thread is all about how bored you are by "lame" flying. But it's not about you. It's just about how you feel, and how you don't have an actual argument for changing anything.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: CptTrips on April 03, 2019, 07:02:08 PM
Years ago I used to think that might be fun. It will never happen here though. I'll bet you a dollar!
Even if it did, it wouldn't change much with regards to this issue. If we were both in P-40's, if I wanted to make sure I dictated the fight with you, I'd use altitude instead of speed. I'd just have to be a bit more cautious and patient since I wouldn't have speed to get me out of trouble. You wouldn't like the results any better. I'd just stay 800 yds out of your reach instead of 3k yds.
;)
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: novice on April 03, 2019, 07:12:02 PM
Nonsense. I'm just not contributing any agreement to your failure to transcend self-interest.
The thread is all about how bored you are by "lame" flying. But it's not about you. It's just about how you feel, and how you don't have an actual argument for changing anything.
Again this is not constructive at all il going to ignore you for time being
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on April 03, 2019, 07:18:16 PM
Years ago I used to think that might be fun. It will never happen here though. I'll bet you a dollar!
Even if it did, it wouldn't change much with regards to this issue. If we were both in P-40's, if I wanted to make sure I dictated the fight with you, I'd use altitude instead of speed. I'd just have to be a bit more cautious and patient since I wouldn't have speed to get me out of trouble. You wouldn't like the results any better. I'd just stay 800 yds out of your reach instead of 3k yds.
;)
Hitech has provided for the rolling plane set crowd. He just won't force it on people.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FESS67 on April 03, 2019, 07:40:31 PM
Lol. Novice is screaming out that the game play is boring him. He flew badly (I have not warched film) to try to ilicit a fight because he was bored. What advice does he get? How to fly dmarter. He already knows how to do that.
Question. If he was to fly smarter, fly to live, chase those runners......would solve his boredom?
No. He just would not die as often but would be just as bored.
The fact is a lot of current game play is boring. Boring enough for some of us to not bother anymore. I think that is a problem worth open discussion. Bring something to the table other than "it's your fault you're bored"
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on April 03, 2019, 08:00:41 PM
You seem to have missed the point.
People get to play the way they want to. If you find that boring then it is your problem.
The plan to nudge other people in a certain direction with perks and ENY will not change how people choose to fly. It may even make things worse.
Therefor the only practical option is for the OP to change his behavior since you cannot change other people.
Nice of people to try to help him but he's made it clear he's not listening.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FESS67 on April 03, 2019, 08:16:18 PM
People get to play the way they want to. If you find that boring then it is your problem.
The plan to nudge other people in a certain direction with perks and ENY will not change how people choose to fly. It may even make things worse.
Therefor the only practical option is for the OP to change his behavior since you cannot change other people.
Nice of people to try to help him but he's made it clear he's not listening.
I did not suggest perks nor ENY.
I do not fully accept your assertion that finding the game boring is my problem. The intent of a game is to attract and maintain a player base. If players are getting bored then the potential is that there is a problem with the player, the game or both.
I am of the opinion that there is a problem with the current game play and it is in the interest of all to resolve it.
My preference would be to explore ways to make a game environment as enjoyable as possible to as many styles of play as possible.
The alternative is I remain bored and leave. I have not renewed my sub. It runs out this week. How many others have done the same thing?
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Shuffler on April 03, 2019, 08:23:25 PM
Mid war was best arena ever.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: ACE on April 03, 2019, 08:24:23 PM
Yes, because you made seat covers out of the hundreds of scalps you got off me!
Agreed, mw was very fun in those 5 on 5 base take battles.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: pembquist on April 03, 2019, 08:54:16 PM
Yeah, well. Someone here recently said that a problem with the game play is that there is a cadre of good sticks who fly good planes and they pretty much slaughter any new-ish guy they come across. They also slaughter a bunch of not new but not particularly gifted players as well, but we are used to it. The problem is the ratio of the cadre to the new-ish. There aren't enough of us mediocres such that anyone new to the game feels like they have much of a chance. The tradition is to say "its a tough world stop crying" and that's all well and good except that as you may have noticed we need every new player we can get.
As for Novice's boredom if you don't know what he is talking about then you are fortunate indeed. I do not have a solution but I don't think it is useful to deny that the phenomena can be a bit of a problem and that it is real even if you have never experienced it yourself. Personally my boredom centers around the Yak3 as it used to around the LA7, it is a case of not having the skill to fly the way I want to not get killed by them unless advantaged. Wah Wah Wah you may well say but frankly I'm at the point of just augering or bailing when I see a Yak3 with advantage coming down to say hello, I almost did it in a f4uC the other night, instead I just flew through some boat ack and off into the distance AFK well getting a snack, not very stimulating for anybody. Any other planes I do not mind losing too but I cannot stand the Yak3 and the now less seen LA7. I don't expect anybody to sympathize but I do not think I am alone in just rolling my eyes when I see them. This is an extreme allergic reaction but it is based on the same kind of principal as being bored out of your mind by being unable to find a fight that you personally find enjoyable and I think you can probably figure out how to classify what kinds of fights are enjoyable for what kinds of skill/plane match ups and I suspect that right now there are less fun fights happening for less skilled less hot plane flyers than there were in the past.
So there :)
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Oldman731 on April 03, 2019, 09:26:54 PM
People get to play the way they want to. If you find that boring then it is your problem.
True enough, if rude. The difficulty is that a very large portion of the AH population is finding this style of flying, and - most important - the resulting lack of combat, to be boring. And because of that - so the theory goes - they are leaving, and going to other places.
Now we can ignore that. We can make fun of them for not anticipating other flying styles, for being intolerant, or for being inartful flyers themselves. But that avoids the issue, it doesn't address it. If it's really an issue.
If it's a real thing; if we are losing players because of an increasing reluctance to engage in combat...shouldn't we maybe think of some way to fix it? And hey, if not, then pop the champagne cork and have a drink!
- oldman
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on April 03, 2019, 09:34:31 PM
Nobody said everything is great, that's a straw man.
We'd all like to see a workable idea that brings more people into the game.
Show me the good ideas. :D
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FESS67 on April 03, 2019, 09:36:40 PM
True enough, if rude. The difficulty is that a very large portion of the AH population is finding this style of flying, and - most important - the resulting lack of combat, to be boring. And because of that - so the theory goes - they are leaving, and going to other places.
Now we can ignore that. We can make fun of them for not anticipating other flying styles, for being intolerant, or for being inartful flyers themselves. But that avoids the issue, it doesn't address it. If it's really an issue.
If it's a real thing; if we are losing players because of an increasing reluctance to engage in combat...shouldn't we maybe think of some way to fix it? And hey, if not, then pop the champagne cork and have a drink!
- oldman
This is what I was trying to say , im not leaving the game or nothing I just got here. Its just causing me to log off in hopes more ppl show. The damn maps dont help either. Just now there were 115 of us on and you would think it was 17.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FESS67 on April 03, 2019, 10:15:08 PM
People taking personal responsibility and developing self-awareness. But I can't force them to do that.
What's your idea?
You are assuming the problem lies with the player. I am suggesting it lies within the game mechanics.
I would like to see the sandbox modified to produce less white space. Generate battles for targets that need to be won before other targets are opened.
Outside of that 'active' battle front nothing is open for business. Funnel the fights to an area commensurate with the population density.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on April 03, 2019, 10:18:15 PM
Oh yeah. A map with three swirling valleys with 30k cliffs on both sides that meet in the middle. The buffs guys'll love that. :cool:
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Vraciu on April 03, 2019, 10:18:30 PM
I was suspecting more like lack of widespread interest killed off the early and mid and AHIII was just an opportunity not to continue them. We all know that those arena could still be activated in AHIII.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Shuffler on April 03, 2019, 10:27:53 PM
I firmly believe it had to do with Russian meddling
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on April 03, 2019, 10:28:58 PM
I would like to see the sandbox modified to produce less white space. Generate battles for targets that need to be won before other targets are opened.
Outside of that 'active' battle front nothing is open for business. Funnel the fights to an area commensurate with the population density.
You don't think a map like that would produce a funnel that would increase density for a smaller arena population? It would be better for fighters and worse for buffs, though.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on April 03, 2019, 10:40:17 PM
You are assuming the problem lies with the player. I am suggesting it lies within the game mechanics.
I would like to see the sandbox modified to produce less white space. Generate battles for targets that need to be won before other targets are opened.
Outside of that 'active' battle front nothing is open for business. Funnel the fights to an area commensurate with the population density.
Like a scenario? Instead of a sandbox you want structured goals and I'm guessing mostly closed bases to direct players to the current fight.
And you want it to dynamically change as the fight progresses. Is that it?
No problems with uneven sides rolling bases in the active battle?
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on April 03, 2019, 10:44:09 PM
I still want the big scenario that deals with positive or negative affects on logistics based on capture or loss of resources - complete with R&D deciding what models are available over time.
Granted, there would come a tipping point where it becomes painfully obvious who will eventually win the war.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: CptTrips on April 03, 2019, 10:51:41 PM
Back in the old days you had pony's and dora's, and pickers, and runners, and ADHD turn monkeys and BnZ'ers.
The difference is you couldn't throw a rock in any direction without hitting a dogfight.
IMHO, you don't have a late war plane dilemma, you have a player density dilemma.
Back then, You could die and get back into a fight fast. There were no shortages of fights. The cost of dying was low because you get back into the action very quickly.
Now you have a painful investment in time to climb out and search and find some action somewhere. I highly doubt anyone flies cautiously because of score concerns. That is a red-herring. They just don't want to have to start all over again back at base. Shorten peoples time to get back into action and you'd see a big difference in loss aversion. Perk their favorite rides and you just increase loss aversion.
Options:
1. Add players. 500 players in the MA solves a lot of problems. 2. Smaller maps. At some point it starts to get ridiculous. If you get down to 128x128 maps, people will wonder if they are really flying a MMOG. 3. Reconfigure to a two sided war with balancing to shorten the frontage thus increasing density for a given map size. 4. Use some kind of capture order to force activity into certain areas. 5. Get on the BBS and stomp your feet and call everyone cowards and timid because they won't fly the way you want. 6. Perk the most iconic WWII planes in the stable, and still not make much difference to the perceived problem of cautious flying. You would probably lower the density some more. ;)
:salute
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FESS67 on April 03, 2019, 10:58:43 PM
You don't think a map like that would produce a funnel that would increase density for a smaller arena population? It would be better for fighters and worse for buffs, though.
What parameters would the buffs need? Why do you assume they cannot be catered for?
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FESS67 on April 03, 2019, 11:00:46 PM
I was suspecting more like lack of widespread interest killed off the early and mid and AHIII was just an opportunity not to continue them. We all know that those arena could still be activated in AHIII.
The decline of both EW and MW arena started when the MA was split into two arenas. Before that the MW arena had a healthy population with up to 50-60 players during prime time. The MW arena had the best plane matchup, with no plane being overly dominant over another in a plane versus plane matchup with pilot skill usually being determining factor in a fight.
The P-38J, during MW's heyday, was the MW's dominating fighter, far surpassing the Hellcat, which was #2, by a large margin. I looked at the stats at the time and found that 3 pilots were responsible for over 75% of the kills in the Lightning while only making up less than 10% of the deaths.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Ack-Ack on April 04, 2019, 12:05:45 AM
I still want the big scenario that deals with positive or negative affects on logistics based on capture or loss of resources - complete with R&D deciding what models are available over time.
Granted, there would come a tipping point where it becomes painfully obvious who will eventually win the war.
Like in Air Warrior where damaging factories had an impact on the quality of fuel, plane maintenance and ordnance?
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Lusche on April 04, 2019, 01:11:10 AM
The decline of both EW and MW arena started when the MA was split into two arenas. Before that the MW arena had a healthy population with up to 50-60 players during prime time.
The second LW arena was there almost from the start, it was added as a potential temporary measure only three after the EW/MW/LW split (the 'missing' EW/MW planes were put back in the LW at the same time), and became permament not long after.
I admit I had to look that details up in the notes first, after 12+years my memory of the events seems to have become a bit blurry :old:
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: lunatic1 on April 04, 2019, 01:31:38 AM
I understand your angle but a skilled player would be able to have fun flying mid war plane in such enviromet. What im trying to get to..
Altho im perfectly happy with the game the way it is I also understand the plight of some ppl that are not happy with the unbalance.
I think the issue we are facing player base that is 20% super skilled and 80% average. It would be easier to make MA more balanced by limiting use of 5eny planes by 20% er than waiting for the other 80% to catch up, wich we honestly never will.
I would venture to say a lot more newbs in d9 or spit 16 would turn and fight a g14 or something along that line than another Spit 16 or god fobid La-7.
any restrictions on the game that limits what a player can fly or not fly, may result in said player or players quiting.
you have to remember alot of players have been playing/flying longer than alot of others, also they know all the acm-so that makes them very skilled, its not their fault.
I would venture to say a lot more newbs in d9 or spit 16 would turn and fight a g14 or something along that line than another Spit 16 or god fobid La-7. [/quote] i'll fight a G14 in a spit 5-8,9,16-even though i don't like them the spit 14 as well.
just because a late war plane is faster in most cases than a late or mid or early war plane doesn't mean LWP's can't be shot down-it takes 2 items to factor that--type of plane and pilot vs type of plane and pilot. call me stupid if you want but i'll fight anyone with any plane against any plane at any time-except the Match play arena.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: lunatic1 on April 04, 2019, 01:40:10 AM
I will reiterate my post. What is the problem? What is the dilemma being created by late war planes?
I am hearing many solutions but until you properly define the problem your solutions are likely to miss the mark. Here is my personal take on it.
Recently my gameplay has become mostly about evading high speed hit and run passes or chasing fast aircraft around the arena. This gameplay allows me to practice my defensive moves however I rarely get the chance to hit back or get into more aggressive fights. It is unbalanced, makes for a boring / frustrating game session and I have now reached the point where it is preferable to go play a different game. I believe the high top end speeds of the later war planes makes the practice more widespread.
That is my problem statement. Yours may vary. There may be many ways to reduce / eliminate the problem however as I said previously, until we can agree on the problem we will never agree on a solution.
Here^^^ is a guy that only fly's the P-51D if eny won't let him fly it, instead of switching to another side he logs off, then complains about eny on the boards. side switch is 6hrs. but he still switch. he won't even consider flying anything else.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FESS67 on April 04, 2019, 02:41:09 AM
I used to have 5 accounts. I got around the side switch timer easily. Because you do not know those other names is irrelevant.
Yes I prefer to fly the 51 almost exclusively.
So understand this....and I mean read what I am writing and UNDERSTAND it.
If I fly the 51 and am bored stupid by people hitting and running to the point I cannot really get a fight. I chase and chase but truth is I am bored. Imagine how bored people in slower planes are.
All we are trying to do is brainstorm ways to overcome that boredom factor.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Shuffler on April 04, 2019, 02:48:14 AM
I do not remember a time that EW and MW planes were not available in LW.
I flew my P-38j in MW and LW.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Lusche on April 04, 2019, 06:29:28 AM
I do not remember a time that EW and MW planes were not available in LW.
The genuine EW planes were missing from MW and LW for the first three days :)
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Slade on April 04, 2019, 06:45:03 AM
I fly a healthy dose of P-40 and other related very non-perky planes. To me, it is so much more rewarding getting kills in them to me than perky planes.
You know someone is not flying for score when you routinely see them in junk planes. :old:
Hey its everyone $15\month so they can fly how they want. :salute
...just one thing though. For you Spit16\LA7\PerkBoyPlane guys...check six!
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Oldman731 on April 04, 2019, 07:11:46 AM
The genuine EW planes were missing from MW and LW for the first three days
I think it was longer than that!
Always believed it was a huge mistake to put them back into the LW arenas. There was no incentive to go to the EW or MW arenas if you could get all the same planes in one place.
- oldman
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Lusche on April 04, 2019, 08:14:04 AM
So thought I. In fact, I would have guessed it's been a few weeks. But the arena split happened Septemper 13 2006. Three days later there was the following message (https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,187380.0.html) in the News forum: "Some early planes are no longer retired from service in the mid and late arenas."
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on April 04, 2019, 08:24:07 AM
Like in Air Warrior where damaging factories had an impact on the quality of fuel, plane maintenance and ordnance?
Somewhat. More like 'Axis and Allies' (the board game) where each side has xxx resource points it can put toward production or research regarding how many fighters, bombers, GVs they have in inventory and what kinds (including surplus). Multiple theater maps encompass the entire war and are alternated between frames. What determines the number of points each side has are the number of strats totaled for each side. Resources created on one map take one full turn to be transported to another map (in other words, tanks built in Great Britain cannot be put to immediate use in Africa the next frame but may be shipped to France and be available in port cities if the Allies have a toehold in France and the map depicts both GB and France).
Something like that (with potential for some modification). :D
*It would be a spreadsheet thing with players doing the figuring.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on April 04, 2019, 08:29:20 AM
Hey its everyone $15\month so they can fly how they want. :salute
Maybe HTC should allow slower, turny planes to be flown for free then?
As long as your not breaking the TOS you should be allowed to play, but do you know that some games like Mechwarrior Online have gameplay specific terms of service? If you try and hide to just delay your enemy winning the round (and stopping everyone else from enjoying/moving on to other matches) you can be kicked/banned from the service.
No fights are a detrement to the game, specially in times like these.
What can be done about it?
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: TWCAxew on April 04, 2019, 08:55:48 AM
Maybe HTC should allow slower, turny planes to be flown for free then?
As long as your not breaking the TOS you should be allowed to play, but do you know that some games like Mechwarrior Online have gameplay specific terms of service? If you try and hide to just delay your enemy winning the round (and stopping everyone else from enjoying/moving on to other matches) you can be kicked/banned from the service.
No fights are a detrement to the game, specially in times like these.
What can be done about it?
That's also something I would be a big supporter for. A similar game to ah with the same payment model has this as well. I made me play the game and subscribe later to it. It would probably also increase the player count. The 2 week trial is confusing at best because you need to enter your credit card information when creating an new account. It looks shady if you don't know the company yet.
DutchVII
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: novice on April 04, 2019, 08:58:39 AM
I would venture to say a lot more newbs in d9 or spit 16 would turn and fight a g14 or something along that line than another Spit 16 or god fobid La-7. i'll fight a G14 in a spit 5-8,9,16-even though i don't like them the spit 14 as well.
just because a late war plane is faster in most cases than a late or mid or early war plane doesn't mean LWP's can't be shot down-it takes 2 items to factor that--type of plane and pilot vs type of plane and pilot. call me stupid if you want but i'll fight anyone with any plane against any plane at any time-except the Match play arena.
I think you misunderstood what I meant by that because the way I wrote it.
If a newb is flying spit 16 or an 8 as he should he is more apt to turn around and flght a skilled player in a g6, ki61 as opposed to skilled player in la-7 or spit -16.
I know from my personal experience that after a while you get a feel who might be in that Spit-16 and just plainly would not turn against someone who I know will kill me on the second merge every time, time and time again.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: AAIK on April 04, 2019, 09:22:26 AM
The 2 week trial is confusing at best because you need to enter your credit card information when creating an new account. It looks shady if you don't know the company yet. DutchVII
Wait, is this true? I don't remember having to put in a CC.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Wiley on April 04, 2019, 10:36:11 AM
So the litany of grievances seems to be:
- long climbout times - unpredictability of the enemy - ability to run - numbers imbalance
among others.
The problem is the open world. There's no need to bother "funneling people into an area" when you could just take away the open world and have a small map and a simple objective for two balanced teams with whatever group of aircraft is deemed "fair" to fight over it.
Open world ongoing PvP is just not popular and never will be, because of the consequences to having that kind of freedom listed above. Personally I like it a lot better than the alternatives, which is why I'm here. But it's a niche within a niche within a niche. In the heyday of AH, there were lots of people because there were no good alternatives that had the short, bite-sized rounds of gameplay most people want with no long climbout times and "fair" fights. When alternatives showed up, the people who were tolerating the open world to fly airplanes went elsewhere where there was more structured gameplay and a skinner box hamster wheel to grind for pretty things and "progression".
Wiley.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: TWCAxew on April 04, 2019, 10:36:34 AM
Wait, is this true? I don't remember having to put in a CC.
I believe it was anyway. Haven't created a new account in some time though.
I used to use my mom's cc back in the day to pay for aces high. And own a cc just for ah my self when I left the house. Since a year or two PayPal is accepted so I canceled my cc and started using PayPal.
DutchVII
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: The Fugitive on April 04, 2019, 10:43:13 AM
People get to play the way they want to. If you find that boring then it is your problem.
The plan to nudge other people in a certain direction with perks and ENY will not change how people choose to fly. It may even make things worse.
Therefor the only practical option is for the OP to change his behavior since you cannot change other people.
Nice of people to try to help him but he's made it clear he's not listening.
I'm sure when. Hitech and his crew designed and built Aces High this is the type of play they envisioned. Players avoiding combat anyway they can. Sneaking bases instead of fighting for them. Players ignoring 95% of the planes and vehicles they put into the game in favor of the the top uber rides.
All is not well.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: CptTrips on April 04, 2019, 12:01:15 PM
Open world ongoing PvP is just not popular and never will be, because of the consequences to having that kind of freedom listed above.
I'm not sure I agree with that 100%.
I hate to continually harp on the Battlefield series, but that and AH are the games whos design and game-play I'm most familiar with. I've played about 10 years in each cumulatively. I've spent a lot of time thinking about their similarities and differences over the years.
In Battlefield, you have an open world. It is a much smaller open world. It is scaled appropriately to the player numbers so there are not vast regions of emptiness. You have all kinds of emergent behavior as players connive all kinds of exploits and counter exploits to take advantage of the environment. That's a feature not a bug. It is amazing to see some of the creative stuff people come up with. lol.
There is a collection of bases to be taken. A number of bases scaled appropriately to the number of players in a server. It is as open a sandbox as AH. The bases tend to be taken in linear fashion for tactical reasons, but sometimes you want to sneak a squad through the lines and take a rear base to force the enemy to react and take pressure off your front line bases.
The Battlefield series is very popular. Each of their games does about 20-40 mil$.
Here are some notable design differences (besides the obvious infantry vs AC)....
1. I think the BF maps are scaled better to the number of players. If keeps the action fast and tight.
2. Time-to-Action is very low. That keeps loss aversion low. Sure you get pissed when you get killed, but you can get back in the action so fast that you don't worry about it too much. A death cost you about a minute of non-combat time instead of 15-20 minutes. So you get back in to get revenge quickly and forget about the last death.
3. (This is an interesting one. Possibly important.) When a side has more bases than the other, the losing side starts bleeding "tickets" like a ticking clock. When a side gets to zero tickets, they lose. I think there is always an odd number of bases so you never get even stasis (I might be wrong on that but maybe that is a good idea. ;)). That discourages a dug in stale-mate. If you are not winning, then you are losing and the clock is ticking. That provides effective focus to motivate base capture in a timely manner. You can't afford to lolly-gag around and not engage.
4. The thing I always like about BF was one way or another a game was over in a reasonable time. In about 20-30 minutes, you either won or lost. In a nights gaming session you could have a game play story arc that had a beginning, a middle, and an end. As opposed to logging in, being in the middle of a map, play for hours, take a few bases, lose a few, log generally with no resolution. Maybe the same map is still up the next day, maybe some EU guys won it when you weren't there. It is hard to get emotionally invested in that kind of grind. 20 minutes? OK not for AH. But maybe so type of time critical driver so that one way or another maps are won or lost in 2-3 hours. You snooze, you lose.
Battlefield has 10's of millions of players. It is likely that any new player trying AH has had their expectations of cadence and pacing formed by games like that. I'm as much an AH fan boy as a BF fan boy. I'm just offering some insight as to how a new player might see AH.
$0.02.
[edit] Oh. And BF is two sided with balancing. ;)
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: hitech on April 04, 2019, 12:25:22 PM
The 2 week trial is confusing at best because you need to enter your credit card information when creating an new account. It looks shady if you don't know the company yet.
DutchVII
Now this just plane pisses me off. Saying we look shady by talking out your back side, when we have never in the history of AH asked for a credit card to have the free trial.
HiTech
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Wiley on April 04, 2019, 12:36:03 PM
In Battlefield, you have an open world. It is a much smaller open world.
4. The thing I always like about BF was one way or another a game was over in a reasonable time. In about 20-30 minutes, you either won or lost.
This is exactly the distinction I'm talking about when I say "ongoing". BF not an ongoing open world battle, it's a 20-30 minute rounds-based game. The world is "open" only in that you can go anywhere in it. You have that bite-sized bit of gameplay that lets people have a win/loss in that short period of time. They're led by the nose to complete or fail at that set of victory conditions in the limited context of the round.
The only other active game that's comparable to AH I'm aware of at the moment is Planetside 2. It's pretty similar to AH, relatively big map, 3 sides (I wonder if there's a possibility that the 3 side thing didn't come completely out of HT's backside?) and ongoing fight until victory conditions are met, which can take hours/days. It's more infantry focused though. And again, player numbers are miniscule compared to stuff like BF or Counterstrike because of the distinction I mentioned above. Rounds- based even teams vs open world ongoing.
EVERYTHING else on the market is more like battlefield. Round based, short time to victory, 2 even sides. And as you noted, they're wildly more popular.
If that's what somebody wants, fantastic! They invented it and it's called WT. For some people like me, if I wanted that kind of gameplay that's where I'd be. I don't want things to be that simplistic so I prefer to be here.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: CptTrips on April 04, 2019, 01:02:26 PM
This is exactly the distinction I'm talking about when I say "ongoing". BF not an ongoing open world battle, it's a 20-30 minute rounds-based game.
OK. I see what you are saying. They are both open sandbox, but BF is time constrained.
The time constraint does generate intense action because you can't afford to sit around and pick your nose.
So my next best suggestion would be to just keep shrinking maps to maintain player density.
But, if you like the current pace, then you are in luck. For a while. But the pace won't appeal to many new players based on what they are used to. The current population continues to evaporate off, through exhaustion, frustration or dying of old age.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: novice on April 04, 2019, 01:16:49 PM
I'm sure when. Hitech and his crew designed and built Aces High this is the type of play they envisioned. Players avoiding combat anyway they can. Sneaking bases instead of fighting for them. Players ignoring 95% of the planes and vehicles they put into the game in favor of the the top uber rides.
All is not well.
This here, I beleive you could remove all the early and mid war planes from MA and no one would complain.
And yess there is DA but its tough getting anyone to go there, yesterday we had 4 guys in Match play and thats the absolute most I seen since my 3-4 months with AH.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Wiley on April 04, 2019, 01:21:27 PM
OK. I see what you are saying. They are both open sandbox, but BF is time constrained.
The time constraint does generate intense action because you can't afford to sit around and pick your nose.
So my next best suggestion would be to just keep shrinking maps to maintain player density.
But, if you like the current pace, then you are in luck. For a while. But the pace won't appeal to many new players based on what they are used to. The current population continues to evaporate off, through exhaustion, frustration or dying of old age.
Exactly, which is why I say by its very nature this game will just never be that popular. IMO by changing it to be like those other games, it's effectively the same as shutting it down and creating a new game. This game is awesome with 500 people in the arena. Unfortunately, without that kind of numbers the fun level diminishes rapidly.
It simply boils down to the gaming community has moved on and expects more of a game than an arena like it is here. Giving people a world and letting their emergent behavior create gameplay is just not sufficient for today's gamer.
They need to accomplish something in about half an hour. They need to see a number in a database go up a few points over time so they can show "improvement" (which actually means just putting your time in) I haven't played BF but I bet you still progress even if you lose every round and die a lot more than you kill. They need some kind of developer-created content to work towards and spend their ingame earned points and microtransaction money on, like hats or new vehicles or new paint jobs for their vehicles.
And above all, they need things to be "fair" however they've decided to define it. Can't have advanced planes fighting early planes, can't have a heavy numbers disparity. Ideally there should be some kind of ELO skill balancing.
This is not that. For the vast majority, that's a problem. For some, it's what they want, if the numbers are there.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: CptTrips on April 04, 2019, 02:14:21 PM
Exactly, which is why I say by its very nature this game will just never be that popular. IMO by changing it to be like those other games, it's effectively the same as shutting it down and creating a new game.
Would you prefer HTC to shut down and have no AH at all as opposed to changing something?
It won't happen tomorrow, but eventually it hits some critical mass and then everyone leaves at once. Just ask MySpace. ;)
Giving people a world and letting their emergent behavior create gameplay is just not sufficient for today's gamer.
AS I stated, there is a huge amount of emergent behavior in games like BF. People come up with stuff the designers could never have imagined. :rofl It's just that a map doesn't drag on for a week with no resolution.
You rank up a class based on earning points for kills, capturing bases, and winning the match. I don't think you get penalized for dying. They want to promote action, not timid loss aversion.
As you move up in rank, certain more advanced weapons are unlocked that you can purchase with your earned points. So yeah, you get better players with better weapons. War is Hell. You can't buy more advanced weapons. They tried to sneak a little of that into Star Wars Battlefront and got burned alive. ;)
They balance side numbers. some servers will attempt to balance skill levels and some will shuffle players, squads between matches to keep evening things up. If things get too uneven, players just log off, just like in AH.
In the first 6 years or so I played AH starting in 1999, there were enough planes in the arena to blot out the sun.
I left for a while and came back when WWI was first introduced. There were still (Lusche?) 350 or so on a good night. I was kinda concerned but there was still fun to be had.
I left for a while and came back when I saw AH had VR support. On a really good night there are what? 180? There is still fun to be had if you are really patient, but it is getting thin.
Back when they first split the LW I would get infuriated and logged if I couldn't get in to the main LW and got shunted off the the spill over that only had 180 people on it. LOL. Now those numbers are an occasion for Shuffler to come on the BBS and brag about the big turn out. :D On most nights it's more like 150?
You don't have to be Lusche to grasp the implications of that trend line. Luckily for HTC, they have a stubborn clientele so that slope is shallow, so they have so time to re-vector. But I'm afraid of someday tripping that critical mass trigger.
What was that Hemingway line about how a character went bankrupt?
"Slowly at first. Then suddenly."
:huh I'd like to see that not happen, even if that means change over time. They are a home-town company. I've always rooted for them and always will.
:salute
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Ack-Ack on April 04, 2019, 02:16:46 PM
Now this just plane pisses me off. Saying we look shady by talking out your back side, when we have never in the history of AH asked for a credit card to have the free trial.
HiTech
I am only looking from the perspective of a new player. I did not intent to offend you or anyone.
I thought this was the way it was when you would fill in the forum which popped up on account creation.
To be clear this is not how i look at your company or at you. I always have been a happy costumer and a big supporter of your game.
Sorry if i offended you.
DutchVII
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on April 04, 2019, 02:38:23 PM
Exactly, which is why I say by its very nature this game will just never be that popular. IMO by changing it to be like those other games, it's effectively the same as shutting it down and creating a new game. This game is awesome with 500 people in the arena. Unfortunately, without that kind of numbers the fun level diminishes rapidly.
It simply boils down to the gaming community has moved on and expects more of a game than an arena like it is here. Giving people a world and letting their emergent behavior create gameplay is just not sufficient for today's gamer.
They need to accomplish something in about half an hour. They need to see a number in a database go up a few points over time so they can show "improvement" (which actually means just putting your time in) I haven't played BF but I bet you still progress even if you lose every round and die a lot more than you kill. They need some kind of developer-created content to work towards and spend their ingame earned points and microtransaction money on, like hats or new vehicles or new paint jobs for their vehicles.
And above all, they need things to be "fair" however they've decided to define it. Can't have advanced planes fighting early planes, can't have a heavy numbers disparity. Ideally there should be some kind of ELO skill balancing.
This is not that. For the vast majority, that's a problem. For some, it's what they want, if the numbers are there.
Wiley.
But the same player driven actions that can diminish the fun can be countered with player driven actions that can enhance the fun. Squads still exist, though many of them are devoted primarily to FSOs or events. Squads could just as easily challenge each other to squad on squad fun in the MA. This precludes the lack of numbers/ oh I'm bored/can't find a decent fight mentality/environment. It could even be turned into a regular 'event', so to speak - but without the artificial massaging. A squad could choose what they want to accomplish versus the other squad and that can (probably has to) be fluid. Do we grab defended territory? Do we rack up kills of the other squad?
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Wiley on April 04, 2019, 03:02:34 PM
Would you prefer HTC to shut down and have no AH at all as opposed to changing something?
I like the freedom it provides when it's got numbers. If it just turns into another WT clone, what's the point?
Fantasy and sci-fi games seem to be popular. Would you cheer, "Huzzah! Aces High is saved!" if they brought in a ton of new players by getting rid of all this WWII stuff and turned it into a dating simulator centered around gender fluid orcs in power armor riding dragons? Changing it into something it's not is pretty much the same as shutting it down.
Quote
It won't happen tomorrow, but eventually it hits some critical mass and then everyone leaves at once. Just ask MySpace. ;)
AS I stated, there is a huge amount of emergent behavior in games like BF. People come up with stuff the designers could never have imagined. :rofl It's just that a map doesn't drag on for a week with no resolution.
Now take away all the class progress/points/unlock stuff. How many people would stick around? I know my money's on "few".
Quote
You rank up a class based on earning points for kills, capturing bases, and winning the match. I don't think you get penalized for dying. They want to promote action, not timid loss aversion.
As you move up in rank up, certain more advanced weapons are unlocked that you can purchase with your earned points. So yeah, you get better players with better weapons. War is Hell. You can't buy more advanced weapons. They tried to sneak a little of that into Star Wars Battlefront and got burned alive. ;)
I reiterate, you still make progress even if you barely get kills and lose every round, right? The "progress" is a time counter. I've gotten all kinds of points in PUBG. I still suck. ;)
Quote
"Slowly at first. Then suddenly."
:huh I'd like to see that not happen, even if that means change over time. They are a home-town company. I've always rooted for them and always will.
:salute
From where I'm sitting, it's a rock and a hard place. They're more or less unique in the industry, and that's why I'm here. Unfortunately, that uniqueness isn't as popular as other stuff.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: bustr on April 04, 2019, 03:03:37 PM
POTW provides that on Tuesday night with between 12-20 players. We up and go mass mosh the pit and let the chips fall where they will. Or is it cooler to say let the bodies hit the floor which we do a lot of to the red guys. It amazes me in the face of all this complaining how we always find something fun and interesting to blow up even on off nights from squad night.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on April 04, 2019, 03:04:20 PM
But the same player driven actions that can diminish the fun can be countered with player driven actions that can enhance the fun. Squads still exist, though many of them are devoted primarily to FSOs or events. Squads could just as easily challenge each other to squad on squad fun in the MA. This precludes the lack of numbers/ oh I'm bored/can't find a decent fight mentality/environment. It could even be turned into a regular 'event', so to speak - but without the artificial massaging. A squad could choose what they want to accomplish versus the other squad and that can (probably has to) be fluid. Do we grab defended territory? Do we rack up kills of the other squad?
But squads are made up of players. There are 3 big squads in the arena that meet regularly every day. They choose what they want to accomplish vs the other two squads and that is fluid. What we see is the result.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on April 04, 2019, 03:13:13 PM
POTW provides that on Tuesday night with between 12-20 players. We up and go mass mosh the pit and let the chips fall where they will. Or is it cooler to say let the bodies hit the floor which we do a lot of to the red guys. It amazes me in the face of all this complaining how we always find something fun and interesting to blow up even on off nights from squad night.
I applaud POTW MA squad nights. I think it would be even 'funner' if there was a dedicated nemesis sqaud of equal numbers that flew that night, as well. Heck, imagine if each chessnation had a squad that did this in a free-for all? :aok
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: bustr on April 04, 2019, 03:32:56 PM
Dickweeds up massive B17 missions 9pm promptly Tuesday nights and we send out 3-8 262 along with other interceptors to stop them. They recruit the services of escorts to try and stop us. When we attack something on that night we always gain a massive response becasue we have numbers to fight against. No wishing needed, we are a Tuesday night institution in the MA. It's all Hitech's fault for that Titanic Tuesday nonsense. After he closed the second MA, we were in the habit of meeting on Tuesdays. It does spice up the mid week for customers. :lol
Sometimes for us it's a chance to test FSO strategies if we got our tails handed to us the previous Friday. And the forth Friday of each month we show up out of habit and do a second squad night. See...we is busy little piggies with no time to whine about nonsense to Hitech becasue we go create problems for the red guys. We end up with drop by guests all the time becasue we go and break things. We don't mind the company and the numbers surprise people to how much fun gets generated. Meh, we act like a feral pig herd marching through a vegetable patch. And the farmer's dogs just make good scoobi snacks...... :O
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: novice on April 04, 2019, 04:07:43 PM
Good to know you guys are up and about Tuesdays Ill make sure im around that time!
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: CptTrips on April 04, 2019, 04:10:09 PM
Now take away all the class progress/points/unlock stuff. How many people would stick around? I know my money's on "few". ... I reiterate, you still make progress even if you barely get kills and lose every round, right? The "progress" is a time counter.
In BF, if you didn't get kills, and didn't help capture bases, and your team didn't win matches, then I don't believe you earn any point or progress in rank. I don't believe you get points for time-of-play. At least I never noticed that.
You realize I wasn't suggesting a rank progression for AH, right? I was merely trying to answer the question you asked earlier.
The main things I think could be learned from BF that is applicable to AH is:
1. Shortening time-to-action seems to reduce loss aversion and increases pace and cadence of action.
2. Proper map-scale:player-count ratio helps facilitate #1. Grow the player-count or reduce the map-scale. (Their spawn mechanism is the other big part of that but I don't think that would work in AH, although, I could see bomber air-starts helping.)
3. Their time-based ticket loss mechanism forces the losing side to act quickly to reverse the balance or inevitably lose even if they hold a stale-mate. That can create some rather astounding battles of desperation. And it puts some time limit on the cycle. That could work in AH without huge changes. The current victory conditions or a loss of all tickets which ever comes first. Each country starts with (just making up a number) 250 "morale points". Each minute a country has a deficit of bases they lose a point. Nothing concentrates the mind like a deadline. ;) Say a 4 hour war cycle? Would that be horrible?
Did you have a different suggestion?
:salute
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: AAIK on April 04, 2019, 04:14:08 PM
The reality is that everyone who comes here is looking for a "fix". If there is no "fix" to be found then people won't be coming back.
People use more advanced aircraft to get that "fix" because its easier. People fly a harder plane because it gives a greater "fix".
We are all looking for the same thing. Its just a matter of harnessing that system of giving people "fixes" that HTC needs to figure out.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: CptTrips on April 04, 2019, 04:16:00 PM
That is a false dilemma. There is a huge design space between the current AH design and WT that could be explored. It isn't a binary choice.
That's right, it's not binary. The orcs are gender fluid.
Quote
In BF, if you didn't get kills, and didn't help capture bases, and your team didn't win matches, then I don't believe you earn any point or progress in rank. I don't believe you get points for time-of-play. At least I never noticed that.
You realize I wasn't suggesting a rank progression for AH, right? I was merely trying to answer the question you asked earlier.
I'd be shocked if you can go through an entire round having a heartbeat and not get some kind of points.
Like I said, there's nothing in this game for people to work toward. That's a major detriment.
Quote
The main things I think could be learned from BF that is applicable to AH is:
1. Shortening time-to-action seems to reduce loss aversion and increases pace and cadence of action.
2. Proper map-scale:player-count ratio helps facilitate #1. Grow the player-count or reduce the map-scale. (There spawn mechanism is the other big part of that but I don't think that would work in AH, although, I could see bomber air-starts helping.)
Scaled for 9PM Eastern, or 4AM Eastern? How are switchover times handled?
Putting bombers up in a position that would significantly improve time to action would pretty much negate defense. At least the way it's structured now you have a chance to spot them and up in time to get to alt to be effective against them.
Quote
3. Their time-based ticket loss mechanism forces the losing side to act quickly to reverse the balance or inevitably lose even if they hold a stale-mate. That can create some rather astounding battles of desperation. And it puts some time limit on the cycle. That could work in AH without huge changes. The current victory conditions or a loss of all tickets which ever comes first. Each country starts with (just making up a number) 250 "morale points". Each minute a country has a deficit of bases they lose a point. Nothing concentrates the mind like a deadline. ;) Say a 4 hour war cycle? Would that be horrible?
Did you have a different suggestion?
:salute
Don't know. I don't hate this idea. Although when the best tactic to win is to roll undefended bases, I'm not sure how much combat that would generate. And the smaller you make the arena to make that less viable, the less options people have when they're overwhelmed other than to up into the vulch.
IMO one of the bigger points against AH compared to pretty much any other game on the market is the fact that there's nothing for people to work toward. An arena is provided, do stuff. And with the pace of map and asset development in AH compared to what people generally seem to expect from other games, I just don't see that improving anytime soon.
...And how does any of this solve the late war plane dilemma? ;)
Wiley.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on April 04, 2019, 05:20:42 PM
I'd be shocked if you can go through an entire round having a heartbeat and not get some kind of points.
I'd have to go research that to be sure, but I never heard that. Of course it would be hard to go a whole game without doing something. Dropping ammo for team mates. Healing as a medic. Repairing vehicles as an engineer. Even just sitting in a flag zone helping to capture it.
I might have to do an experiment and find a hole to hide in and do nothing for a round. Of course my team needs to lose too.
Scaled for 9PM Eastern, or 4AM Eastern? How are switchover times handled?
Point taken, but in BF, 64 player server sometimes only have 32.
Of course the advantage of shorter war cycles is it gives you the ability to adjust maps regularly thought the day based on historical player stats. So EU guys don't have to play on the same sized map the US prime guys were .
Don't know. I don't hate this idea. Although when the best tactic to win is to roll undefended bases, I'm not sure how much combat that would generate.
Could that be because the map in not scaled well to the number of players? In BF you have undefended bases that get attacked. Like I said before. You spawn some guys there ASAP and defend. Or you take one of theirs. If they are already in a deficit, they take one, you take one, they are still bleeding. Sometimes because of time and distance they can't make it to an undefended base so you end up with a desperate Armageddon fight over a base they can get to while they still have time.
And the smaller you make the arena to make that less viable, the less options people have when they're overwhelmed other than to up into the vulch.
Or spend an hour flying over Hitech's awesome terrain engine looking for some good action somewhere. But those are both extreme end-points with a good design trade-off somewhere in the balance.
...And how does any of this solve the late war plane dilemma? ;)
Yeah, sorry. I have totally been hijacking Novice's topic. I just felt if I told him I didn't like his solution, I was obligated to offer an alternative view and not just snipe from the side-lines.
Peace. Out.
:salute
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: CptTrips on April 04, 2019, 05:39:53 PM
I'm passive-aggressively refusing to entertain any possible suggestion of changes to the main arena ever. Instead I will strangle your idea in the crib by suggesting you stick it in a side arena that we both know no one will ever go into and so I can then claim it proves it's not popular.
We've had this argument before (like over 20 pages) and you finally admitted that putting any test in a separate arena is not a fair test because players just reflexively herd into the main. Whatever is in the main. If you put two-sided war in the "Melee" and 3-sided off in some side arena call "3-sided war", everyone would herd in to the two-sided "Melee" by reflex; like you admitted before.
The WWI arena is empty because it is not the main. The EW was empty because it was not the main. The MW was empty because it was not the main. Any other "side-area" will usually be empty regardless of merit because it it not the main.
The only exceptions I've seen work are specific, short-term, pre-scheduled curated "events" like FSO, Scenarios, and the very creative AvA events. The rest of the time, sadly, the AvA seems empty when I've checked. Why? Because it is not the main. And the player base herds reflexively into the main.
Do you have a second suggestion? ;)
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: DmonSlyr on April 04, 2019, 06:26:55 PM
People get to play the way they want to. If you find that boring then it is your problem.
The plan to nudge other people in a certain direction with perks and ENY will not change how people choose to fly. It may even make things worse.
Therefor the only practical option is for the OP to change his behavior since you cannot change other people.
Nice of people to try to help him but he's made it clear he's not listening.
You say everyone else has no proof of their arguement yet say that reducing ENY or perking a few more planes will not change how people fly. Can you prove that claim?
I completely disagree with you. If more players fly less performance planes in a more balanced arena, they would have to fly differently because they would not be able to use lazy tactics if they lose the E advantage. You and Wiley both say that "other planes will take their spots". The counter of that is that those planes aren't as good, so they will be easier to catch if they don't use the BnZ tactics in the correct way. No one is trying to take away tactics. BnZ can be used by most planes. The fallacy is thinking that reducing ENY or perking a really fast plane is taking away someone's style. It's not. It's reducing temptation of using a crutch.
The problem is, if too many leave because of boredom or other reasons. That's hitechs problem. Polls should be implemented to understand the the players in the MA. There is no point in a forum wishlist if only a few players out of hundreds use it because you can always make the arguement that it doesn't take most of the players into consideration. IMO, there is nothing wrong with experimenting with the MA and finding out what players like and don't like (sorta like the radar thing).
I don't understand why we should consider the MA "perfect" when it should always be open to some experimentation. I think bringing in new smaller maps with shorter base distances will go a long way to bringing back more action and less boredom regardless of the planes.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on April 04, 2019, 06:52:31 PM
I didn't propose a test. I proposed an alternative to boredom.
Friday squad nights are a thing.
Make another thing. Do something constructive.
Doing the steps to engage and support a "thing" is effort and none of them will admit the root of what they want is Hitech to shoulder it all while they pass judgement on the failures of trying new "things" with no skin in the game for the failure. I've never met an "Idea Man" who wanted to get his hands dirty. The AvA crew are doing more than hosting a two sided setup. They are experimenting with "things" and a very tiny number of some "thing" features have ever made it into the MA. When you look at other games, just like AH they have their core "thing" that makes them money. And just like Hitech, very little totality of the architecture change happens to the golden goose while people keep paying for those eggs.
The DA went away, the Match Play arena does not entice much of a following and WO:P, maybe it's still needing time for the right youtuber or streamer to play in there and go Kowbunga this is hot to his followers. Otherwise most of the ideas being thrown up on the wall are just the things from other games these guys like and they are doing their own version of nugetx. At least they are not crossing the credulity line nuget did by telling Hitech to just trust him he knows it will work. They are carefully dancing out of the way of being pinned for that answer or some kind of action just like Idea Men always do. Remember nuget's idea for cropping the best parts of multiple combat games into the MA and totally revamping it would be a success and he wasn't willing to bet anything on it but assurances.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Wiley on April 04, 2019, 08:25:56 PM
You say everyone else has no proof of their arguement yet say that reducing ENY or perking a few more planes will not change how people fly. Can you prove that claim?
Pretty easy to see it happen in real time when ENY kicks in. They move down to the next fastest planes and continue to do what they do, except more conservatively. One diving pass, run to ack.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: The Fugitive on April 04, 2019, 09:44:39 PM
See rule #4
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: guncrasher on April 04, 2019, 10:31:05 PM
lol fugitive hitech has done many changes and continues to make changes to the game. but there's one thing he cannot change is that how we play the game.
guess what you want is for example hitech to stop runners. guess he's supposed to code a bolt of lighting if you move more than 2k away from your opponent.
no more bnz, if you dive into an opponent from more than 1k, you automatically dive into the ground.
missions, if you don't join you are grounded automatically. and if you join and don't follow instructions, mission creator will eject you from the arena.
just play the game you aren't having fun quit. if you don't know how to have fun ask around. but if you want people to have fun the way you think it should be, don't ask hitech to hardcode it because we all have different ideas as to how the game should be played.
semp
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: flippz on April 05, 2019, 12:13:15 AM
The video shows a classic situation. The player picks a slower plane that turns better and complains that faster planes choose appropriate tactics.
no the statement should be is all we have in the arenas these days are 20 yr vets that fly nothing but the fastest planes that are available. then after lift off they climb as high as possible and enter the fight, not a 1v1 but a gang. if you watch the film after the yak learns hes being out turned he dives away to the plane that has 2 on him all ready. all day long planes run from a 1v1. and I don't mean 190s and typh and 51 (which the skies are full of) I mean spits and yaks and kis and 205s. that's what novice is getting at with film. not that he hung his self or what he should have done... only whats typical of todays arena and the normal flight.
I have taken 3 guys 2 brand new and one mostly new in to our squad and all three have left the game with in months of stale boring play. all stating the same thing. any 1v1 is pretty a chase after the first turn and then the fight ensues when they are able to extend long enough to be covered by friendlies or ack. I get the wingman thing but the constant running and hording from every side is out of control in this game. I had one of the best fights in the game the other day with f1 that I have ever had. after the fight my arm hurt and I had a grin ear to ear that lasted I know for thirty minutes. I approached a spit that I had alt on, my first move was to drop to gain speed figuring it was gonna be a chase to his ack. all the sudden there was a typh and 109 over me. the spit stayed and turned under me for speed and I rolled out. the fight lasted (and the stig can contest to this) for 5 mins of wing stalling and pure fight to the end. unfortunately we got a collide as we passed to close. but the 109 and the typh never entered the fight staying 4k away and let us duke it out until the winner prevailed. I had more respect for the 109 and typh in that fight that the spit (no disregard to him) because its not every day some one shows that kind of respect for a fight. we need fights like that in here the stale old merge and run is boring and tiresome. I know not every fight can be like that but a few can, even a few a day and at the end did any one really loose the fight? do you pay $15 a month to run to ack or chase planes to there buddies? would you invite a friend in here to the madness we have in the main arena? the constant country hording and fight gang bangs?
perk the late monster planes a lil raise the eny a lil it will not hurt the game. no one will leave because the planes cost fictional perks or maybe when the arenas are saturated the skies are not full of 500 mph planes. thats one of the issues in the game is the prisoners are running the assylum. its all 20 year vets playing and no new blood is coming in and staying and why would they? to get chewed up? with no new blood and members leaving as fast as they are leaving we are gonna need a 3 base per country map but the same size so you can get the 190d wound up to full speed or those bombers up to 35k.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Wiley on April 05, 2019, 07:16:41 AM
Yes, people. If you do not Respect The Fight (tm) you are a Bad Person and are what is wrong with the game. When you see a 1 v 1 you must circle above it either yelling "fight fight fight" over range vox or alternately playing "You're the Best" by Joe Esposito into your mic. All other activity in the area must grind to a halt for each 1v1 that is about to occur. 1v1s are special and must be prioritized above all else.
MPA is on the left. I really wish all you guys that want 2 player gameplay would use it so you'd be happy and the constant selfish whining would cease.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Shuffler on April 05, 2019, 09:03:17 AM
Silly people..... the answer is 3.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: ACE on April 05, 2019, 09:44:34 AM
I can feel a conclusion coming. Maybe page 26
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on April 05, 2019, 10:05:58 AM
no the statement should be is all we have in the arenas these days are 20 yr vets that fly nothing but the fastest planes that are available. then after lift off they climb as high as possible and enter the fight, not a 1v1 but a gang. if you watch the film after the yak learns hes being out turned he dives away to the plane that has 2 on him all ready. all day long planes run from a 1v1. and I don't mean 190s and typh and 51 (which the skies are full of) I mean spits and yaks and kis and 205s. that's what novice is getting at with film. not that he hung his self or what he should have done... only whats typical of todays arena and the normal flight.
I have taken 3 guys 2 brand new and one mostly new in to our squad and all three have left the game with in months of stale boring play. all stating the same thing. any 1v1 is pretty a chase after the first turn and then the fight ensues when they are able to extend long enough to be covered by friendlies or ack. I get the wingman thing but the constant running and hording from every side is out of control in this game. ...
You state that all three sides mostly play the way you think should change. So it's a minority wanting changes?
Also you state that you can't expect a 1v1 fight in the MA. Welcome to the MA. Been like that since dinosaurs walked the map.
And the two new players you shared your game play style with left the game. Sorry to hear that. I wonder if training would have helped.
You state that all three sides mostly play the way you think should change. So it's a minority wanting changes?
Also you state that you can't expect a 1v1 fight in the MA. Welcome to the MA. Been like that since dinosaurs walked the map.
And the two new players you shared your game play style with left the game. Sorry to hear that. I wonder if training would have helped.
Nonsense. If the problem is people acting like people what do you expect Hitech to do? Should he take direction from people who think self-interest is sufficient analysis and can't even discuss ideas without insulting people? Consider that in umpteen years of whining there have been very few good ideas. If everybody saw the same problem it wouldn't exist. It's a minority wanting to improve personal performance by limiting other players.
I think Hitech should use coding to steer the game back to a combat game. At his point players have bastardized the game so far away from combat that is silly to use the word combat on the web page.
Until something is done to bring back the combat the game will continue to bore players quickly and they will continue to leave.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on April 05, 2019, 11:24:20 AM
I think Hitech should use coding to steer the game back to a combat game. At his point players have bastardized the game so far away from combat that is silly to use the word combat on the web page.
Until something is done to bring back the combat the game will continue to bore players quickly and they will continue to leave.
If only a few people are doing it it's not a problem.
If most people are doing it it's the community preference.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: ACE on April 05, 2019, 11:41:26 AM
FLS you are just resistant to any change I presume?
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Shuffler on April 05, 2019, 11:54:26 AM
If I am doing it.... it's a new fad.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on April 05, 2019, 11:55:28 AM
I don't think HTC did anything "wrong" to cause the decline in numbers.
The number have declined however. That is an inescapable fact. And the decline of numbers has had some effect on the melee experience.
Yeah, change always carries risk. Sometimes however, refusing to change anything can be equally risky.
From where I'm sitting, it just seems like the only viable change strategy would be in the "complete overhaul of pretty much everything" category. They could make all kinds of incremental changes, but I think it wouldn't make enough of a difference to sway people who would look at this and then look at something else that is a) free and b) has more shiny stuff in it.
And I think the number of people who aren't looking for the kind of stuff brand x provides is miniscule.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on April 05, 2019, 01:32:10 PM
I think Hitech should use coding to steer the game back to a combat game. At his point players have bastardized the game so far away from combat that is silly to use the word combat on the web page.
Until something is done to bring back the combat the game will continue to bore players quickly and they will continue to leave.
I think our confusing the words 'combat' and 'sport' and incorrectly assessing that HT is to blame and that coding is the answer to the imagined problem.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: CptTrips on April 05, 2019, 01:34:37 PM
Okay fair enough. In your opinion why do you think we had tons of guys playing in 06-10 and then now we are here.
Some got distracted (by life, online sparkly things, etc). Some actually died and found it difficult to keep playing in that condition. I'm worried more about potential new people clicking on the button on the main page that'll bring them here before trying the game out and seeing the 'prophets of doom' and their sunny disposition.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Wiley on April 05, 2019, 01:40:05 PM
Some got distracted (by life, online sparkly things, etc). Some actually died and found it difficult to keep playing in that condition.
Surely the dead guys could still fly a spitfire or a bomber though, right?
Quote
I'm worried more about potential new people clicking on the button on the main page that'll bring them here before trying the game out and seeing the 'prophets of doom' and their sunny disposition.
I wouldn't worry too much about that. Unless this is their first online gaming forum (which I would find pretty unlikely) people are pretty used to there being a certain percentage of the population on a forum espousing DOOOOOOOOOOM.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on April 05, 2019, 01:42:16 PM
I think our confusing the words 'combat' and 'sport' and incorrectly assessing that HT is to blame and that coding is the answer to the imagined problem.
I have not seen anyone state that HT is to BLAME. He has created a game that gives people freedom of action and they are using that freedom as they seem fit. What we are suggesting is the total freedom of action is making for a pretty boring game right now and some coding intervention to reduce the impact of that behaviour might be an appropriate way to go.
I remember in WWIIONLINE there was a problem with spawn campers. They applied a coding fix to resolve the situation. HT has done the same here with the walls around the VH. Just because people can do something in an open world environment does not mean they should.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: flippz on April 05, 2019, 03:08:41 PM
Yes, people. If you do not Respect The Fight (tm) you are a Bad Person and are what is wrong with the game. When you see a 1 v 1 you must circle above it either yelling "fight fight fight" over range vox or alternately playing "You're the Best" by Joe Esposito into your mic. All other activity in the area must grind to a halt for each 1v1 that is about to occur. 1v1s are special and must be prioritized above all else.
MPA is on the left. I really wish all you guys that want 2 player gameplay would use it so you'd be happy and the constant selfish whining would cease.
Wiley.
that's not what im saying at all. you read into it to hear what you wanted to hear. I understand the mentality and get that's part of the game. but when no bases are flashing and tow cons meet why not have a fight? do you fly your fighter for scenery, and no disrespect to the game but there are sims that you can load a lot better scenery. do you fly a fighter in this COMBAT GAME for something to do other than the dishes? I highly doubt it. I am just saying the game maybe better off with out a lot of late war monsters that much like in novices film makes the one pass run move.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: DmonSlyr on April 05, 2019, 03:27:38 PM
Personally I'd like to see a team of map makers get together and build new maps quickly. Wish I had the time. Regardless of the EZ mode planes, arenas that provide great air combat at a quicker pace tend to do very well. Arenas that allow for quick pace fights during the off hours do a lot better. Arenas that provide paths of action make for really great fights. A lot of the times, the map makes the fights.
Perhaps, experimenting was the wrong term. Evolve, would be a better term. Nothing I ever say is to change the MA at all. Most of the things I say never involve any coding or major structure changes. I love the MA. Figuring out ways to make the fights more abundant is the real solution. As another said in this thread before, the time it takes to get to the fight and then dying quickly is why players fly timidly. It's not about score or rank or anything else. These dudes just don't want to spend another 10-15 minutes climbing out for it to happen again. I realize that it is part of the game, but working on maps that create more adundant furballs with shorter bases ease the pain of having to roll again and taking the time of getting alt. I think some of the new maps have been successful in that. Y'all can make the false arguements and say " I just want to increase my own performance by changing the MA" but that is entirely false. If I wanted to increase my performance, id fly a temp or La7 every sortie. I simply want more people to be fighting in furballs who aren't afraid to roll again because it will take so long to get there and who then have to choose the top performing planes because that's the only way to compete since every one else is flying them. When you get 3-4 big furballs on the Map, thats when you get the most players. That's how you bring the #s back.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Shuffler on April 05, 2019, 03:29:36 PM
If only a few people are doing it it's not a problem.
If most people are doing it it's the community preference.
So your saying that if we are all in a checkers championship and half way through the games the "majority" of the players just push all the pieces off the board it would be ok, right? Just because "most" of the people are doing it, doesnt make it right.
I think our confusing the words 'combat' and 'sport' and incorrectly assessing that HT is to blame and that coding is the answer to the imagined problem.
Im not blaming Hitech for anything, he has built a great game. If he has made any mistake I would say he hasnt adapted to the changing "gamer" world. This has cause more and more people to "look" other places for the game they want to play. I still think Hitech could code things into the game to make more players "find" action.
I have not seen anyone state that HT is to BLAME. He has created a game that gives people freedom of action and they are using that freedom as they seem fit. What we are suggesting is the total freedom of action is making for a pretty boring game right now and some coding intervention to reduce the impact of that behaviour might be an appropriate way to go.
I remember in WWIIONLINE there was a problem with spawn campers. They applied a coding fix to resolve the situation. HT has done the same here with the walls around the VH. Just because people can do something in an open world environment does not mean they should.
BINGO!
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on April 05, 2019, 04:29:51 PM
If he has made any mistake I would say he hasnt adapted to the changing "gamer" world. This has cause more and more people to "look" other places for the game they want to play. I still think Hitech could code things into the game to make more players "find" action.
The .... changing .... gamer .... world. Name one single popular (attracts more players) air combat game online that doesn't have the elements in it you claim Aces High has that is chasing players to them.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: waystin2 on April 05, 2019, 05:26:42 PM
I have been reading this for 18 pages and it is a lot of the same comments back and forth. I fly in the Aces High melee arena for two reasons: to hang with my friends and to sharpen up for events or scenarios. It's my gym. I am rarely attracted to a furball environment and stopping for a good 1 v 1 is a good way to get yourself eaten. I don't like to take empty bases, unless the Rooks are being ignored by the Knights and Bishop. Then I will help take fields until someone starts upping. No one to shoot at means I am not getting a work out. I do not think less of those who are interested in furballing or dogfighting exclusively anymore than those that enjoy the process of "winning the war". Most of the Pigs On the Wing are the same way, we just like to see the arena burn in our pursuit of event and scenario muscle. My point in sharing this is that combat is here, it may not look exactly like you think it needs to look like, but it's here. If you take the time to stop complaining and start flying and dying.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: bustr on April 05, 2019, 05:27:09 PM
The change the game camp falls into two ideologies.
1. - Just because people can do something in an open world environment does not mean they should.
Eventually "someone" makes this statement and then the only answer they have after being forced into a corner for 3billion pages of purse fighting is: Hitech has to force them to not do what "someone" has decided shouldn't be done, just trust me I know better than you or Hitech.
2. - Other games do x, y, z, abc, 123, zed zero zulch. This game is boring and dying tomorrow becasue no one likes your game anymore Hitech becasue it's too old school and lame. So trust me you "need" to take all the aforementioned good things I've experienced in all the other games and remake this game into a super zowee killer game for the current woke hip all knowing generation of "real gamers".
Eventually someone makes this statement and then the only answer they have after being forced into a corner for 3 billion pages of purse fighting is: How do I know this will work, just trust me, I'm one of the new generation of hip all knowing players and you guys and Hitech especially are old and out of touch in my humble all knowing opinion.
Funner still, this has to be predicated on the thinking Hitech lives in a bubble and knows zilch about anything related to real computer games after 1999 in his industry. Or, the members of these two camps have decided this game sucks as is and Hitech sucks along with anyone who supports him unless he changes his game to suit their demands. All kind of woke and all SJW inclusive and tolerant modern style of how to get what you want when others suck and are in your way even if you don't own the company you want changed.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on April 05, 2019, 05:47:53 PM
So your saying that if we are all in a checkers championship and half way through the games the "majority" of the players just push all the pieces off the board it would be ok, right? Just because "most" of the people are doing it, doesnt make it right. ....
Nonsense. Your analogy is ludicrous. Let's leave checkers out of it.
When you extend/run away in the MA you enjoy getting clear. You are part of the group that enjoys playing that way. You shouldn't be forced to play differently for someone else's enjoyment.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: The Fugitive on April 05, 2019, 06:15:10 PM
Nonsense. Your analogy is ludicrous. Let's leave checkers out of it.
When you extend/run away in the MA you enjoy getting clear. You are part of the group that enjoys playing that way. You shouldn't be forced to play differently for someone else's enjoyment.
But if that is what everybody does it would surely make a pretty boring game..... oh wait, isnt that where we seem to be heading? Just because you can, and everybody is doing it doesnt mean its good for the game.
The .... changing .... gamer .... world. Name one single popular (attracts more players) air combat game online that doesn't have the elements in it you claim Aces High has that is chasing players to them.
I havnt an answer for that because I only play this game.
Answer me this, Why is the best WWII air combat game ever made (Aces High) losing players to other games all the time ? Why do the numbers continue to drop? Why do new players not even finish out their free two weeks?
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on April 05, 2019, 06:23:34 PM
But if that is what everybody does it would surely make a pretty boring game..... oh wait, isnt that where we seem to be heading? Just because you can, and everybody is doing it doesnt mean its good for the game.
...
You miss the point. If it's a majority choice then it's not ruining the game. If you don't like it stop doing it but don't tell the other guy what to do.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on April 05, 2019, 06:28:11 PM
Answer me this, Why is the best WWII air combat game ever made (Aces High) losing players to other games all the time ? Why do the numbers continue to drop? Why do new players not even finish out their free two weeks?
Seriously? You go on in multiple threads about why HTC is losing players and offer your opinion on how Dale can fix this. Now you admit you don't play other games, revealing you don't know if the things you complain about happening in AHIII exist elsewhere. You're admitting, boldly at this point, that it's actually a mystery to you. Then you ask me, a player that doesn't complain about the things you complain about, what will fix the problem of population drop.
I contend that the population drop is natural. Succeeding generations of online gamers were never attracted to online game play of the nature that AH offers like we were/are. What few younger players that can possibly be lured are an exception, not a rule. I say instead of making up reasons for the loss of players (outside of just plain ol' life or death) we make the most of AH, as is, and stop trying to turn it into a social experiment. Perhaps new players might be inspired to do likewise if they don't see the self inflicted misery.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Lusche on April 05, 2019, 06:42:43 PM
Answer me this, Why is the best WWII air combat game ever made (Aces High) losing players to other games all the time ? Why do the numbers continue to drop? Why do new players not even finish out their free two weeks?
You say "best WWII air combat game" as if this was an objective fact, which it is not. It's a highly subjective assessment, and not few players would disagree with you and name other titles. ;)
Individual players leaving a game is pretty much standard. Few players stick with a title for years, even in the best times AH probably had an average player subscription retention more measured in months than years, if at all. Almost everything gets boring after some time, unless a title goes great lengths of introducing new toys, challenges, gameplay options all the time. AH went way behind the curve over the years and didn't keep up with many developments. Outdated GUI appearance, changed expectations in accessibility, new topics&themes appealing to new generation of gamers ('best WWI air combat' doesn't help that much when fewer and fewer gamers are fascinated by that topic at all), a (perceived?) lack of development and evolution, much more overall competition in online gaming, unpopular pricing model... There are lot of things that can have contributed to the decline of numbers. As the steam release mercilessly showed, most new trials didn't even stick around for half an hour. Apparently they weren't driven away by runners or 'lame BnZ' all the time, they never even got that far to complain about the gameplay.
And that's been AH's biggest problem, I think - the lack of initial appeal to new players. I actually did greatly underestimate this myself, until AH's steam release.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on April 05, 2019, 06:46:34 PM
Eventually "someone" makes this statement and then the only answer they have after being forced into a corner for 3billion pages of purse fighting is: Hitech has to force them to not do what "someone" has decided shouldn't be done, just trust me I know better than you or Hitech.
bustr, how have we been 'forced into a corner'? Seems to me we are trying to have a debate about an aspect of the game we feel is not working. I have not attacked anyone for their views nor have I insisted others accept my view. If you cannot bring something to the discussion why are you here?
At some stage "someone' decided to:
Change radar settings
Add more trees
Add a HUD
Put walls around GV hangars
Reduce visibility of GV tags and make GVs virtually invisible under trees
etc. etc. Things do change and should change. Healthy, adult debate is a good thing.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on April 05, 2019, 07:09:00 PM
bustr, how have we been 'forced into a corner'? Seems to me we are trying to have a debate about an aspect of the game we feel is not working. I have not attacked anyone for their views nor have I insisted others accept my view. If you cannot bring something to the discussion why are you here?
At some stage "someone' decided to:
Change radar settings
Add more trees
Add a HUD
Put walls around GV hangars
Reduce visibility of GV tags and make GVs virtually invisible under trees
etc. etc. Things do change and should change. Healthy, adult debate is a good thing.
This thread hasn't gone south. Bustr using the phrase 'backed into a corner' doesn't make that so. Debate away (though I challenge you to make a case that what you're advocating is truly fun inducing for everyone and not some form of forced behavior due to the frustration of a few that think the entire player base 'needs' this).
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FESS67 on April 05, 2019, 07:17:51 PM
Debate away (though I challenge you to make a case that what you're advocating is truly fun inducing for everyone and not some form of forced behavior due to the frustration of a few that think the entire player base 'needs' this).
What is it you think I am advocating?
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on April 05, 2019, 07:20:49 PM
Some form of forced behavior due to the frustration of a few that think the entire player base 'needs' this.
This response does nothing but indicate that you will oppose the introduction of any change. Your opinion is different when it comes to lowering the side switch timer though. Do you have evidence that the entire player base needs this?
My proposal / wish is to find a way to promote more fighting and less running. I do not want to remove the option to run, we all run at some stage, I want to make it so that there is a reasonable mix of gameplay. I have not even proposed a mechanism to do this yet because after 19 pages of to and fro we still cannot even agree that a problem exists.
I am not sure why people instantly think the worst and go on the attack as soon as someone says...'hey is there a better way of doing this'?
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: bustr on April 05, 2019, 08:20:02 PM
The core of Hitech's game is freedom of choice with no force to comply with other customers game play choices.
That is why no one agrees there is a problem becasue they are paying $14.95 to do what they choose to at all times in the MA. The problem you want everyone to agree to, is they are making bad choices based on your analysis of their game play choices. Why should your game play choices be superior to theirs in Hitech's eyes who is accepting their $14.95 to make their own choices of how to play this game? The only agreement you want is they agree they are making wrong choices versus your right choices. Otherwise there is no problem for them, only you.
You have been here before about this subject a number of times in the past. You want Hitech to change the game to force his customers to make you happy. Your only real analysis is they have a problem becasue they are being allowed to make wrong choices by the no forced compliance structure of the MA versus your right choices.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: The Fugitive on April 05, 2019, 08:43:24 PM
You miss the point. If it's a majority choice then it's not ruining the game. If you don't like it stop doing it but don't tell the other guy what to do.
Ahhhh, so your ok with watching the game morph into something other than a "air combat" game that has issues keeping players longer than a few hours, which in the long run is a no win situation. Glad your not running things.
Seriously? You go on in multiple threads about why HTC is losing players and offer your opinion on how Dale can fix this. Now you admit you don't play other games, revealing you don't know if the things you complain about happening in AHIII exist elsewhere. You're admitting, boldly at this point, that it's actually a mystery to you. Then you ask me, a player that doesn't complain about the things you complain about, what will fix the problem of population drop.
I dont have to spend more then an hour or two in other games to know that they have nothing to offer that Aces High doesnt totaly out strip.
Quote
I contend that the population drop is natural. Succeeding generations of online gamers were never attracted to online game play of the nature that AH offers like we were/are. What few younger players that can possibly be lured are an exception, not a rule. I say instead of making up reasons for the loss of players (outside of just plain ol' life or death) we make the most of AH, as is, and stop trying to turn it into a social experiment. Perhaps new players might be inspired to do likewise if they don't see the self inflicted misery.
Another one who has given up. I still believe that changes can be made to bring Aces High back to the point of 300+ players every night. You have given up and accept the idea that Aces High has run its course and we should just ride it out as it dies. If Hitech works at it Im sure he could bring this game into the 21st century and draw more players into the fold.
At this point what we have isnt drawing/keeping new players. Not making changes just brings more of the same. Making changes, who knows.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FESS67 on April 05, 2019, 09:02:53 PM
The core of Hitech's game is freedom of choice with no force to comply with other customers game play choices.
That is why no one agrees there is a problem becasue they are paying $14.95 to do what they choose to at all times in the MA. The problem you want everyone to agree to, is they are making bad choices based on your analysis of their game play choices. Why should your game play choices be superior to theirs in Hitech's eyes who is accepting their $14.95 to make their own choices of how to play this game? The only agreement you want is they agree they are making wrong choices versus your right choices. Otherwise there is no problem for them, only you.
You have been here before about this subject a number of times in the past. You want Hitech to change the game to force his customers to make you happy. Your only real analysis is they have a problem becasue they are being allowed to make wrong choices by the no forced compliance structure of the MA versus your right choices.
Where did I state people were making bad choices?
Where did I state my game play choices are superior?
What I have stated is that I find the gameplay boring due to the prevalence for players to run rather than fight. I think that is not a good position to be in for a game based upon combat. Therefore, is there a better way of doing this?
You make maps right? In your many posts about those maps you discussed your thoughts about how to create a space where there was something for the tank guys, something for the buffs, something for the fighters. You created maps with close bases to encourage fighting, you are removing trees to encourage AH2 style GV fights.
Notice, I said encourage. Yet when I want to encourage fighters to fight rather than run you substitute the word force into the mix and proceed to decry any effort to discuss the issue. What makes your map changes any different? Have you not forced your will upon the player base by creating maps that encourage a certain play style?
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on April 05, 2019, 09:06:14 PM
My proposal / wish is to find a way to promote more fighting and less running. I do not want to remove the option to run, we all run at some stage, I want to make it so that there is a reasonable mix of gameplay. I have not even proposed a mechanism to do this yet because after 19 pages of to and fro we still cannot even agree that a problem exists.
...
Actually you proposed changing the maps as a mechanism to improve game play with minimal constraints on current behavior. :aok
An option I mentioned would be for players bored by runners to seek dogfights in the match arena. Since it's no fun to wait there alone Hitech added AI. Why more people don't use the match arena might make a useful discussion.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FESS67 on April 05, 2019, 09:14:16 PM
Actually you proposed changing the maps as a mechanism to improve game play with minimal constraints on current behavior. :aok
Ahh yes, to funnel the action, that's right. The maps in here are huge considering the population. Imagine holding a party for 20 people in the back room of a bar. Good interaction and mingling, everyone goes home saying what a great party it was. The next week the same 20 have another party but this time the venue is an 80,000 seat stadium and they are all spread out. Yeah, not such a good party.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Vraciu on April 05, 2019, 09:19:19 PM
Ahh yes, to funnel the action, that's right. The maps in here are huge considering the population. Imagine holding a party for 20 people in the back room of a bar. Good interaction and mingling, everyone goes home saying what a great party it was. The next week the same 20 have another party but this time the venue is an 80,000 seat stadium and they are all spread out. Yeah, not such a good party.
#Logic
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on April 05, 2019, 09:24:48 PM
Ahh yes, to funnel the action, that's right. The maps in here are huge considering the population. Imagine holding a party for 20 people in the back room of a bar. Good interaction and mingling, everyone goes home saying what a great party it was. The next week the same 20 have another party but this time the venue is an 80,000 seat stadium and they are all spread out. Yeah, not such a good party.
Because the group couldn't find a way to meet up and interact there? What did they require? A sheepdog?
#betterlogic :D
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: guncrasher on April 05, 2019, 09:24:53 PM
Ahh yes, to funnel the action, that's right. The maps in here are huge considering the population. Imagine holding a party for 20 people in the back room of a bar. Good interaction and mingling, everyone goes home saying what a great party it was. The next week the same 20 have another party but this time the venue is an 80,000 seat stadium and they are all spread out. Yeah, not such a good party.
well if 15 of those people come back from that party held at an 80k venue and they said they had fun. so the other 5 want the other 15 to change they way they had fun so you and 4 others can be entertained.
I used to live in charlotte nc, once i went to a party for a couple of hundred at the hornet's nest. a few of my coworkers choose to sit back and wait for somebody to come to them. I had fun, they didnt. not my fault or the others that had fun. the ones who didnt, pointed fingers and said that's not the way to have fun. instead of pointing fingers at others, you should ask yourself why am I not having fun? the others are, why not me?
semp
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on April 05, 2019, 09:26:56 PM
well if 15 of those people come back from that party held at an 80k venue and they said they had fun. so the other 5 want the other 15 to change they way they had fun so you and 4 others can be entertained.
I used to live in charlotte nc, once i went to a party for a couple of hundred at the hornet's nest. a few of my coworkers choose to sit back and wait for somebody to come to them. I had fun, they didnt. not my fault or the others that had fun. the ones who didnt pointed fingers and said that's not the way to have fun. instead of pointing fingers at others, you should ask yourself why am I not having fun? the others are, why not me?
semp
^#L*o*g*i*c*%*@*! :D :cheers: (Party on, Garth)
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Vraciu on April 05, 2019, 09:37:46 PM
Actually you proposed changing the maps as a mechanism to improve game play with minimal constraints on current behavior. :aok
An option I mentioned would be for players bored by runners to seek dogfights in the match arena. Since it's no fun to wait there alone Hitech added AI. Why more people don't use the match arena might make a useful discussion.
Ahhhhh YES! thats the answer, chase MORE players from the MA !!!! LOL!!!
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Vraciu on April 05, 2019, 09:40:01 PM
Ahhhhh YES! thats the answer, chase MORE players from the MA !!!! LOL!!!
Uh oh. More #Logic.
Don’t let Arlo see you. He might try to be witty.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: guncrasher on April 05, 2019, 09:43:15 PM
I'll give you another example, me and a few squadies were busy defending and atacking this base or that base. somebody noticed a dar bar that appear to have bombers 1/2 across the map they were not even coming our way. they upped with fighters and flew like 5 or 6 sectors. i was busy in a bombers so it took me 20 minutes to up a fighters, i came in a 262. they attacked the bombers, then the escorting fighters then the enemy fighters that came to attack the bombers. by the time i got there there was only 3 friendlies left, low on ammo and no fuel to rtb. i got one kill then had to rtb alone as all my squadies were dead. my squadies had fun, i had fun even if i only had 1 kill and had to rtb alone.
same thing happened last tuesday, we noticed a darbar way in the back not even close to a base being attacked. boom, we knew bombers are getting alt. we upped like 15 of us, we flew across the map, mix of 262's and fighters. we found them harassed them, we got some of them they got 1/2 of us. enemy fighters upped trying to help bombers, we fought our way in and our way out, well not me, i decided to ho a formation of b17's, it didnt go well. but i had fun, my squadies had fun, pretty sure the bombers had fun shooting at us, the fighters that upped to help the bombers had fun.
make your own fun, sure you dont have to fly across the map to have fun, but if you need to then do what it takes.
semp
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FESS67 on April 05, 2019, 09:44:42 PM
instead of pointing fingers at others, you should ask yourself why am I not having fun? the others are, why not me?
semp
I am not pointing fingers. I am saying this is not fun for me and am trying to explore options. Why is it so hard for you guys to understand that? You appear to live in the culture of blame and as long as it is someone else's fault and not yours the world is good. If the fact is that if a game does not give me what I need from it then I do not play it. I am at that stage with AH for the reasons I have stated. I am not alone. Better to recognise it than pretend all is well with the game and then be surprised when numbers keep dropping.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FESS67 on April 05, 2019, 09:46:38 PM
I'll give you another example, me and a few squadies were busy defending and atacking this base or that base. somebody noticed a dar bar that appear to have bombers 1/2 across the map they were not even coming our way. they upped with fighters and flew like 5 or 6 sectors. i was busy in a bombers so it took me 20 minutes to up a fighters, i came in a 262. they attacked the bombers, then the escorting fighters then the enemy fighters that came to attack the bombers. by the time i got there there was only 3 friendlies left, low on ammo and no fuel to rtb. i got one kill then had to rtb alone as all my squadies were dead. my squadies had fun, i had fun even if i only had 1 kill and had to rtb alone.
same thing happened last tuesday, we noticed a darbar way in the back not even close to a base being attacked. boom, we knew bombers are getting alt. we upped like 15 of us, we flew across the map, mix of 262's and fighters. we found them harassed them, we got some of them they got 1/2 of us. enemy fighters upped trying to help bombers, we fought our way in and our way out, well not me, i decided to ho a formation of b17's, it didnt go well. but i had fun, my squadies had fun, pretty sure the bombers had fun shooting at us, the fighters that upped to help the bombers had fun.
make your own fun, sure you dont have to fly across the map to have fun, but if you need to then do what it takes.
semp
How many of those bombers and fighters ran away?
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Vraciu on April 05, 2019, 09:47:31 PM
See rule #4
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on April 05, 2019, 09:59:02 PM
well if 15 of those people come back from that party held at an 80k venue and they said they had fun. so the other 5 want the other 15 to change they way they had fun so you and 4 others can be entertained.
semp
To be honest with you semp, the 20 people at the party have become 5. The other 15 just drifted off due to the boredom. Kinda like having an arena of 600+ and now struggling to break 200.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on April 05, 2019, 11:26:01 PM
No, I asked a simple question. All you need to do is answer it
well to answer the question of "we" and the other question of size matter. I am just gonna say this, I had fun today with my squadies. we defended a few bases, sank a few cv's, killed a few planes, killed a few tanks, literally saved a base because somebody got the last troop before it went into the maproom.
but not speaking for my squad and just for me. do you think hitech changed the code so when i log i have fun? am I that fricking unique? so when I do this thing and if I am not having fun, then I do this other thing, if if that still isnt fun then I find a way to make it fun for me. it isnt that complicated. we have fighters, bombers, tanks, werbies, field guns, damn jets. and you can mix and match, so if the game isnt fun, then your expectations are for somebody to make it fun for you, that aint gonna happen, you do what makes it fun for you. that simple.
semp
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FESS67 on April 06, 2019, 02:09:57 AM
well to answer the question of "we" and the other question of size matter. I am just gonna say this, I had fun today with my squadies. we defended a few bases, sank a few cv's, killed a few planes, killed a few tanks, literally saved a base because somebody got the last troop before it went into the maproom.
but not speaking for my squad and just for me. do you think hitech changed the code so when i log i have fun? am I that fricking unique? so when I do this thing and if I am not having fun, then I do this other thing, if if that still isnt fun then I find a way to make it fun for me. it isnt that complicated. we have fighters, bombers, tanks, werbies, field guns, damn jets. and you can mix and match, so if the game isnt fun, then your expectations are for somebody to make it fun for you, that aint gonna happen, you do what makes it fun for you. that simple.
semp
See the question I asked was "How many of those bombers and fighters ran away?"
You have failed to answer that question, instead choosing to tell me how much fun you had. Good for you. My experience has been that most run rather than fight.
My realisation from our conversations is that in your opinion the issue lies with me. It is my fault that I do not have fun in the game and I should do something about it. I choose to vote with my feet and leave the game. Over the past few years it would appear that 400 regular players have done that as the usual numbers in the arena have dropped from 600 to under 200.
I am ok with leaving the game, it is not fun for me anymore. I at least tried to make you all aware of why I was not happy. What amazes me is your inability to even discuss the issue. Good luck with your squad. I am out.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: guncrasher on April 06, 2019, 02:44:06 AM
See the question I asked was "How many of those bombers and fighters ran away?"
You have failed to answer that question, instead choosing to tell me how much fun you had. Good for you. My experience has been that most run rather than fight.
My realisation from our conversations is that in your opinion the issue lies with me. It is my fault that I do not have fun in the game and I should do something about it. I choose to vote with my feet and leave the game. Over the past few years it would appear that 400 regular players have done that as the usual numbers in the arena have dropped from 600 to under 200.
I am ok with leaving the game, it is not fun for me anymore. I at least tried to make you all aware of why I was not happy. What amazes me is your inability to even discuss the issue. Good luck with your squad. I am out.
so we found the only bombers than didnt bail and fighters that didnt run way. is that what you want me to say? so I have been following this thread and most of the guys that say, "everybody" runs, have more kills than the average player. so If everybody runs, how do they get kills?
but in honestly, I once had this guy dive on me 5 times from high altitude, I was in a spit8, once he lost his e, and it was him and me only, he dove down and ran. I was laughing my buttt off on all 5 passes, it was funny as hell to me, had he turned with me I would have nailed him really fast, but he didnt. still I had fun in that fight and it's one of the ones I remember the most. I had no damage and he went home. I landed and my hands were shaking from the stress of trying not to get killed. i think i had a victory in that encounter, but it dont matter, it was fun as hell to me.
semp
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Vraciu on April 06, 2019, 08:06:19 AM
so we found the only bombers than didnt bail and fighters that didnt run way. is that what you want me to say? so I have been following this thread and most of the guys that say, "everybody" runs, have more kills than the average player. so If everybody runs, how do they get kills?...
Good point. My theory is some people feel entitled to kills they couldn't get.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Vraciu on April 06, 2019, 11:18:24 AM
See rule #4
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: ACE on April 06, 2019, 12:27:26 PM
One thing I was a huge fan of is when they made bases closer together. But still they are to far away. Nothing is more counter productive than a climb out with the game minimized for 5 mins.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on April 06, 2019, 12:46:37 PM
See rule #4
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Vraciu on April 06, 2019, 01:03:10 PM
See rule #4
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on April 06, 2019, 01:20:16 PM
Maps with bases close together are nice, especially if they contain TT and FT
Having base clusters and the overall size of the map are two different things. I've always suspected GV spawn points were designed to make a fight/base capture/capture attempt quicker - on any size map. Aircraft don't have that option in the MA so players advocate for smaller maps thinking larger maps can't facilitate such (not saying that is what you're doing in the above quote).
As previously illustrated in a post, a small group that knows how to play together (if that's what they truly want) can find a way to do so on any size map and in a number of ways.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: novice on April 06, 2019, 04:24:01 PM
Having base clusters and the overall size of the map are two different things. I've always suspected GV spawn points were designed to make a fight/base capture/capture attempt quicker - on any size map. Aircraft don't have that option in the MA so players advocate for smaller maps thinking larger maps can't facilitate such (not saying that is what you're doing in the above quote).
As previously illustrated in a post, a small group that knows how to play together (if that's what they truly want) can find a way to do so on any size map and in a number of ways.
Al long as they are closer together thats all that matter, big map with a ton of bases would take too long to win probably.
Problem is not all players belong to a numerous squad, I mostly fly solo.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on April 06, 2019, 04:36:11 PM
Al long as they are closer together thats all that matter, big map with a ton of bases would take too long to win probably.
Problem is not all players belong to a numerous squad, I mostly fly solo.
Squads don't even have to be numerous. Solo players, however, a forced into playing in more limited ways. For instance, Dora high speed smash and runners (not all solo players resort to such but I bet most Dorunners are).
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: novice on April 06, 2019, 04:49:05 PM
I get what you are saying its just with a small squad you end up flying solo a lot. Big squads seam to have 3-4 guys on at all times
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on April 06, 2019, 05:56:05 PM
I get what you are saying its just with a small squad you end up flying solo a lot. Big squads seam to have 3-4 guys on at all times
True dat. I haven't met up with a squaddie in the MA in a long while. I take pride in being fiercely loyal to VF-17 for over 20 years but I would jump at the chance of being welcomed to fly with a squad that has a regular (at least weekly) presence in the MA. That's where the activity is between events and FSOs. That's the place to truly hone one's skills (not just ACM but SA, tactics, etc.).
Lately, I've been flying mostly B-17 formation sorties with some F4U-1D attack runs off flattops.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: guncrasher on April 06, 2019, 10:07:27 PM
I get what you are saying its just with a small squad you end up flying solo a lot. Big squads seam to have 3-4 guys on at all times
ask any squad that has numbers if you can join them for the night or couple of hours. most will let you play with them anytime without joining. I do it if there isnt any pigs around and even then when there's pigs around sometimes we are doing our own thing in different places. so I'll join some other players and sometimes i just fly alone.
semp
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: DmonSlyr on April 07, 2019, 01:04:35 PM
I think maps like the Grinder map are a good size. Have definitely seen some good fights on there in multiple spots. Maps around that size with 15 - 17 miles bases do really well. The base layout after that is another most important part. I notice that alot of players like flying/tanking to a Vbase that's in the middle or near 2 bases of opposing teams. Lots of CV for close action is also great. Also, I'd really like to a see a smog 8 style map for Axis V Allies, but I just don't have time to attempt to make one. I feel that map was really great at getting enough players for a death match. The hardest part about custom arenas though is that there just has to be more than 3 people in it at all times to attract players, and someone has to leave to their computer up all day, which I cannot. I feel like the AvA would be more populated if there could be a steady 3-5 players in there at all times (hard to do I know), along with a small island map that takes up about 4 sectors total. This is how H2H was always able to get players in the arena. Perhaps having the H2H on a different page in like it use to be will make it more popular. IDK for sure though. It's a shame more players don't open FFAs and death matches anymore...
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on April 07, 2019, 04:23:03 PM
Nobody wants to be the first player in an empty arena. The option for AI would help with that.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on April 07, 2019, 04:24:46 PM
Would AI show as player #s on the main menu arena list?
No, but it gives people a reason to spend time in there.
In WWI, for example, there are people who enjoy that genre. But they don't go in there because there is no one in there. And no one is in there , because no one goes in there.
If someone went in there, there is nothing to do but fly in circles for a while waiting. They leave, and then someone looks and there is no one in there, so they don't go in there.
AI augmented arenas would prime the pump. People might go in there to futz with AI for a while. Someone comes by and sees there is someone in there, so they go in. Pretty soon, you have a ball-game.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on April 07, 2019, 04:35:47 PM
No, but it gives people a reason to spend time in there.
My point is, a new player seeing '0' or even '1' on the map list as compared to '50', or '100' might not be lured (not knowing 50 AI opponents await them on the '0' map). Some vets, as well.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: CptTrips on April 07, 2019, 04:48:36 PM
My point is, a new player seeing '0' or even '1' on the map list as compared to '50', or '100' might not be lured (not knowing 50 AI opponents await them on the '0' map). Some vets, as well.
Might not, might would.
If it's a genre they enjoy, but seldom are able to (e.g. AvA, Early War, Mid War, WWI) anything you could do to help prime the pump might get the ball rolling. (mixing metamorphoses.)
(Did I misunderstand you suggesting showing the AI as player count? I wouldn't do that, if that is what you were getting at. That would be mildly misleading. You could put it in the area name like "AI Populated Early War". )
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on April 07, 2019, 05:08:22 PM
(Did I misunderstand you suggesting showing the AI as player count? I wouldn't do that if that is what you were getting at. That would be mildly misleading.)
Or leading.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: CptTrips on April 07, 2019, 05:11:47 PM
None of the ones already offered up in this thread.
:aok
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: BBP on April 08, 2019, 11:45:23 AM
Make me fly those crappy planes and I quit! :bolt:
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: save on May 01, 2019, 07:37:37 AM
AI might be the solution to the empty arena(s).
Flying in the Buzzaw map with 50 players (Euro TZ), half in GV's does not cut it for many, and I, and others just log.
There are rare occations when I find a big enough radar bar even there, and when it does, I hit the 'Fly' button.
In other games you can send missions from a field to a target, and you can chose to escort them, or not.
It would bring life to an otherwise dead(ish) arena with too few radar bars worth investigating.
Wirbelwinds are currently too effective in here, maybe it is true to RL (Allied lost close to 1700 fighterbombers in Normandy alone) , but it's just as stupid for gameplay as F3 Lancstukas, for for me and others, they just give an incentive not to hit the 'Fly' button and do something else.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Vraciu on May 01, 2019, 08:43:20 AM
Flying in the Buzzaw map with 50 players (Euro TZ), half in GV's does not cut it for many, and I, and others just log.
There are rare occations when I find a big enough radar bar even there, and when it does, I hit the 'Fly' button.
In other games you can send missions from a field to a target, and you can chose to escort them, or not.
It would bring life to an otherwise dead(ish) arena with too few radar bars worth investigating.
Wirbelwinds are currently too effective in here, maybe it is true to RL (Allied lost close to 1700 fighterbombers in Normandy alone) , but it's just as stupid for gameplay as F3 Lancstukas, for for me and others, they just give an incentive not to hit the 'Fly' button and do something else.
+1 but they need to be aerodynamically limited like we are. The drones in Match Play are just ridiculous.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: atlau on May 01, 2019, 02:01:22 PM
I think free accounts limited to 30+ eny planes might bring in some cheap bastards that would thus bump up the numbers and get more people to join when they see busy arenas. Could be worth a shot for htc.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: guncrasher on May 01, 2019, 03:02:51 PM
I think free accounts limited to 30+ eny planes might bring in some cheap bastards that would thus bump up the numbers and get more people to join when they see busy arenas. Could be worth a shot for htc.
pretty sir hitch had said that most players don't stay for more than 15 minutes. 2 free weeks or 2 years won't make a difference.
semp
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: The Fugitive on May 01, 2019, 04:15:28 PM
pretty sir hitch had said that most players don't stay for more than 15 minutes. 2 free weeks or 2 years won't make a difference.
semp
I think a person trying the game and seeing how much of a learning curve it has would look at "2 weeks" as that aint going to happen and leave. The unlimited or FREE plane for an unlimited time would have people putting in the time as it isnt costing them anything and stay long enough to get hooked.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Shuffler on May 01, 2019, 05:12:15 PM
I think a person trying the game and seeing how much of a learning curve it has would look at "2 weeks" as that aint going to happen and leave. The unlimited or FREE plane for an unlimited time would have people putting in the time as it isnt costing them anything and stay long enough to get hooked.
People that do not care to "waste" time learning are not going to stay one way or another. Those types require some way to buy themselves better. They believe they should start at the top. That is why they are always at the bottom.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Vraciu on May 01, 2019, 05:33:41 PM
I think a person trying the game and seeing how much of a learning curve it has would look at "2 weeks" as that aint going to happen and leave. The unlimited or FREE plane for an unlimited time would have people putting in the time as it isnt costing them anything and stay long enough to get hooked.
The head to head arenas are what got me hooked. They were free. Unlimited. Always busy. Gave me a chance to figure out the FM before getting slaughtered in the MA.
Free EW rides would help. An overlay for noobs showing where everything is would help even more.
People leave after 15 mins because the interface is completely perplexing to a new player. If you don’t fix that you will never hook them in numbers like we need.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Vraciu on May 01, 2019, 05:34:47 PM
People that do not care to "waste" time learning are not going to stay one way or another. Those types require some way to buy themselves better. They believe they should start at the top. That is why they are always at the bottom.
But it is impossible to learn when you can’t even ask for help. Hitech has got to fix that. If he doesn’t things will not dramatically improve regarding retention of new players.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FLS on May 01, 2019, 06:28:51 PM
The marketing has to change. Tell people up front the game is too hard for them. Don't make it a surprise. :devil
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on May 01, 2019, 06:40:01 PM
The marketing has to change. Tell people up front the game is too hard for them. Don't make it a surprise. :devil
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: bustr on May 01, 2019, 06:47:57 PM
You can always go back to wishing for simple out of Hitech.
Let them have their 2 week free access to all rides then, or instead, a new kind of account where they get only a spit9 or 109 G2 or A6m unlimited forever. Don't give them more options then that and you won't get slumming by vets canceling their accounts. And those three planes will not make anyone into a L33T since everyone else will have access to late war rides. Those are pretty simple rides at a minimum to learn and stay alive, if the person engages the vets for advice and decides to put in the effort. Otherwise, those rides will be here waiting for them whenever they remember the game is out there. Let them change to one of the other two each tour, and no activity for a tour on the account, it auto deletes. When they come back around months later, they make a new account.
Got the impression accounts like that are a pain to support the database from something Skuzzy said years ago. Still, If only those three rides are available, you won't get slumming for the GV game or long slow flights in the moonlight by previous vet strat runners who hate Hitech. At the minimum, you will have some "looky loos" to harvest knowing what the three rides are 15 seconds after your first merge. Be funny seeing all the spit9 being used as vets alt account so they can change country at will. At least it won't be vets changing at will upping perk rides.
If you complicate this it won't work.....though the last few times I've seen some thing like this thrown out there, the complication looked like a laundry list of what people would accpet at a minimum themselves to cancel their accounts and keep playing free with a reduced ride menu.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Vraciu on May 01, 2019, 06:53:29 PM
You cannot have a game this complex and expect to thrive when players are stuck on the runway firing their guns, unable to communicate.
You're bailing water without plugging the leak.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: atlau on May 02, 2019, 03:09:26 PM
pretty sir hitch had said that most players don't stay for more than 15 minutes. 2 free weeks or 2 years won't make a difference.
semp
But they would be more likely to stick around and play every now and then. Increasing total number would make the arenas busier and thus more attractive to further bring in more people.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Arlo on May 02, 2019, 03:14:53 PM
I once made a list of 'free planes' I thought would work. ;)
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: bustr on May 02, 2019, 04:11:43 PM
One free plane that they know will always be there and "Free" will translate to the current gaming cultural demographics translation of "Free". They will remember one free anytime ride and will tell friends about it becasue there won't be any confusion.
Anything more and vets will stop paying and tell Hitech to screw himself becasue of all their past gimmie x, y, z whines, and accept a few less rides to play occasionally for free. They will do it thinking he will suddenly go Oh gee golly, they were serious I better create everything they ever wanted to beg them to come back. At which point they might come back just to look at it, then rant in the forums about what kind of sorry SOB Hitech is for driving them out of his game by not doing what they "told him too do" all those years ago. Then go back to where ever they went off to to play in those game communities they made new relationships in. Very few people once they disconnect from a community and all the reasons they stayed in the past can reconnect and pick up where they left off.
Make a single ride free, a fighter like the spit9, even rotate three in that class to choose from at each tour start day. That is enough to try out the game, play once in awhile, or grow into the game and get serious creating an account to get all the rides. The abuse of it will be like anyone who keeps creating a second two week account to game the game. Essentially it's more honest than freemium, one plane a month from a menu of three free or, $14.95 a month for everything.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Vraciu on May 02, 2019, 05:26:13 PM
Sounds about right.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: FESS67 on May 02, 2019, 05:40:09 PM
I still think you are all missing the problem.
How will giving a free ride solve the problem of:
late war monsters running away
new users unable to understand basics like controller setup or access to radio comms
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 02, 2019, 08:43:29 PM
new users unable to understand basics like controller setup or access to radio comms
Perhaps a link to approved training videos on the clip board map might be a good idea. At least they would have an easy click to research. Most players do not check the boards or the website, so any directions in-game will get the most views and understanding.
I wouldn't mind having a single plane for free simply because it gives people a longer chance to play the game and they WILL buy a sub just get to get fly a p51D or their fav plane. It would be great for guys who can't afford it at the time but want to just fly. Who don't care about dying and flying a lesser performance plane. It would make the fights more fun and actionable.
Eny should be restructured for some planes. I do feel as though too much easy access to top late war planes really does make the fights slower and more drawn out, so when you have to travel 8 minutes to a base, then chase planes, and then get picked by 4 other guys while you are chasing em, then it just gets tiring after a while taking that much time.
Also it's really just having maps that's direct the action rather than have it spread out all over the place when the #s are low. With smaller area maps and 15 mile bases, players could still attack un-occupied bases but with only 3-5 bases as a front, the fights would be more directed and more actionable.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 02, 2019, 09:02:08 PM
Also, maybe adding an assist indicator, like turning the icon purple If you'd get the assist, would reduce ganging. Just thought about that.
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Karnak on May 10, 2019, 04:41:01 AM
Its been years since I played. I was decent. Not top dog, but good enough to win more than I lost by a fair margin. If I came back tomorrow I'd be meat on the table. I left for a few reasons and they can't really be quantified as to which was more of a reason than the others. I know the final straw was the "run to the nearest Wirbelwind" tactic that became very common after the distance to spot enemy GVs was massively reduced while leaving friendly vehicles visible at 6,000 yards.
Karnak's list of issues that made the game not fun:
Unrelenting and, functionally, unrestricted use of the player base as a captive audience to spout bumpersticker, garbage politics at
Plane selection narrowing as the faster planes became a larger and larger portion of what was used making most planes uncomfortable and not fun to use. Yes, my preferred ride was one of them.
Reducing the enemy GV icon range to the point where you would be in the GV's effective range before the icon was visible coupled with not doing so to friendly GV icons creating close cooperation that didn't remotely exist between WWII aircraft and GVs
Burnout, but this had happened many times before and after a break I'd always wanted to come back. Frankly I have, on multiple occasions, thought about coming back, but the issues list above always remind me I want to come back to a game that no longer exists
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Bushmills on May 16, 2019, 06:01:46 AM
An interesting read, after returning from a few years absence I have to say its heartening to see a good lot of the players I remember as adverse to danger now up for a fight, death, even your own, is the oil of the game. :airplane:
Title: Re: Late war Plane dillema
Post by: Vinkman on May 16, 2019, 09:56:38 AM
This is not a real problem. It's player choice. No rules changes can fix it without destroying the MA. too many players want the MA to be all things and it can't be. More players would fix running problems. When the arena is full of enemies, there is no where to run, and when it's full of friends, there is no reason to run.
new users unable to understand basics like controller setup or access to radio comms
This is the real problem with low player base. That and expensive front end start up costs. Perhaps an easy mode set up for gaming controllers, and XBOX console access would help. Do we have that yet?