Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Rich52 on August 09, 2011, 11:21:50 AM
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I was wondering why I was seeing so few of them. Being that I never flew them much I went weeks before seeing they are now perked. :cheers:
Great job. It used to be so tireing seeing hordes of uber-spits zinging around. This was a good and just move I think. :salute
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no wonder they keep running :furious
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Where did you see they were perked? I just popped into the late war arena and I didn't see a perk cost on the Spit XVI.
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your bait is weaksauce and your command of the roman's numerical system is FAIL. if it's mere dyslexia, my apologies.
The 14 has always been perked (some say it shouldn't be, but that's a whole lot of other threads)
The 16 is still free in the LWA.
XIV = 14
XVI = 16
:noid
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Nope. Someone needs to substantitate a perk requirement first. Noone has been able to do so yet. Good luck! :aok
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:noid
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Yeah my mistake. I thought I was looking at the 16 when indeed it was the 14. :uhoh
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"Hordes of uber Spits zinging around"....
P-51D anyone? ;)
(http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/1262/janjun2011.jpg)
(Note the Spit XIV in red. All other perk planes are way off chart to the right :D)
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Well Im getting old and senile. But I could have sworn I was seeing less spixteens compared to a year or two ago.
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Well Im getting old and senile. But I could have sworn I was seeing less spixteens compared to a year or two ago.
You are correct with that perception. Spitfire usage went down a bit and Pony usage went up.
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do you have il2 usage after external view nerf?
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You are correct with that perception. Spitfire usage went down a bit and Pony usage went up.
I would rather have the Spits... The 1 pass haul buttocks crowd is boring.
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Well Im getting old and senile. But I could have sworn I was seeing less spixteens compared to a year or two ago.
Yes, more people have finally realized that spitfires are dweeb planes and should be left in the hanger, the scrap yard not being modeled yet.
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do you have il2 usage after external view nerf?
I was taking a look at it, but I'm not finished it. It usage was cut down significantly and it did "lose" about 1/3rd of it's pilots per tour, but it's still the premier tank buster along with the A-20.
Also keep in mind it was not only removal of F3 what had a big impact on the usage, but also the fact that the Il is now tied to the FH, greatly reducing it's usage as a last-ditch field defense fighter when FH's go down.
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Yes, more people have finally realized that spitfires are dweeb planes and should be left in the hanger, the scrap yard not being modeled yet.
I think it more that they get tired of chasing the runners, so they switch to a plane that can go faster. :bolt:
Fred
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I was taking a look at it, but I'm not finished it. It usage was cut down significantly and it did "lose" about 1/3rd of it's pilots per tour, but it's still the premier tank buster along with the A-20.
Also keep in mind it was not only removal of F3 what had a big impact on the usage, but also the fact that the Il is now tied to the FH, greatly reducing it's usage as a last-ditch field defense fighter when FH's go down.
How many fighter kills it got per change vs. now would be a relevant stat. It is a sad side effect that it has to be tied to the FH only.
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While I don't think the spixteen should be perked since in the hands of a noob it gives them a decent chance at survival, I do believe that it, along with other 'state of the art' aircraft should be tied to large airfields that could support the upkeep and maintenance of such planes. A list of aircraft I believe should be large field only are:
B-29
AR234
ME262
Spitfire XIV and XVI
Tempest
Ta152
(ME163 excluded for obvious reasons)
These aircraft in my opinion were seen less in conflict, and had smaller theatres of operation due to the fact that they were new, required a lot of logistical support, and in instances of the B-29, 234 and 262 simply couldn't take off from many air fields. There are a ton of things this could help effect in game play from the realism side of fuel consumption and throttle control to the tactical side of making certain fields worth more and actually worth attacking or defending.
Flame on...
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B-29
AR234
ME262
Spitfire XIV and XVI
Tempest
Ta152
(ME163 excluded for obvious reasons)
These aircraft in my opinion were seen less in conflict, and had smaller theatres of operation due to the fact that they were new, required a lot of logistical support, and in instances of the B-29, 234 and 262 simply couldn't take off from many air fields. There are a ton of things this could help effect in game play from the realism side of fuel consumption and throttle control to the tactical side of making certain fields worth more and actually worth attacking or defending.
Flame on...
Well I would think that if someone wants to up a B29 from a forward base they are spending the perks so why not let them up where they want. Majority of the time its from some base next to HQ so they can climb out to 30k anyway.
Honestly if I am going to spend 250 perks for a 262 might as well be where ever I want, I run the risk of losing it.
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Well I would think that if someone wants to up a B29 from a forward base they are spending the perks so why not let them up where they want. Majority of the time its from some base next to HQ so they can climb out to 30k anyway.
Honestly if I am going to spend 250 perks for a 262 might as well be where ever I want, I run the risk of losing it.
Yeah, I feel the same way about spending 40 on a 163... so why only one base?
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Yeah, I feel the same way about spending 40 on a 163... so why only one base?
Because having a rocket plane that can go from 0-30k in 60 seconds (I'm just kidding on that) at every base would ruin the game.
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Because having a rocket plane that can go from 0-30k in 60 seconds (I'm just kidding on that) at every base would ruin the game.
:aok
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Because having a rocket plane that can go from 0-30k in 60 seconds (I'm just kidding on that) at every base would ruin the game.
You are only a few minutes off, but I get and agree with the point. FAST :aok
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Yes, more people have finally realized that spitfires are dweeb planes and should be left in the hanger, the scrap yard not being modeled yet.
the only dweebs are those that insist on labeling planes "dweeb planes" as there are no dweeb planes, only dweeb pilots.
ack-ack
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the only dweebs are those that insist on labeling planes "dweeb planes" as there are no dweeb planes, only dweeb pilots.
ack-ack
this
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You are correct with that perception. Spitfire usage went down a bit and Pony usage went up.
it all has to do with pony drivers getting mad with spits for killing them. so they started with the get out of that training plane. so now everybody flies ponys.
semp
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Spitfires were a vital piece of WW2 history. The LAST place they should be is in the hanger. Fighting against them in the game is a great way to improve your game. If I were British they'd be my plane of choice. :aok
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the only dweebs are those that insist on labeling planes "dweeb planes" as there are no dweeb planes, only dweeb pilots.
ack-ack
Lighten up. Not that difficult to tell I was joking. While I dislike spitfires, particularly when they run to ack, I don't think they're ready for the scrap heap.
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"Hordes of uber Spits zinging around"....
P-51D anyone? ;)
(http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/1262/janjun2011.jpg)
(Note the Spit XIV in red. All other perk planes are way off chart to the right :D)
I <3 your charts. Sorry to hijack, but Lusche, there has been a strong growing trend in the usage/popularity of the Dora in the past year, hasn't there?
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I think it more that they get tired of chasing the runners, so they switch to a plane that can go faster. :bolt:
Fred
this - I love the LA7 as it is, but I tend to go for it more and more because I up to defend and instead get a runner (47, Dora, 51s mostly) - and I have to chase it down. . .even if it takes the whole damned tank.
But I agree - there are no easy/hard - dweeb/elite planes - just good and bad pilots.
And no complaint here - I like chasing things :huh
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But I agree - there are no easy/hard - dweeb/elite planes - just good and bad pilots.
That is a demonstrably false statement. While there are good and bad pilots, there are also universally agreed upon characteristics/traits that make some planes far easier than others.
It is a fact. Some planes allow you to do more with less input and no penalty. Lesser skilled pilots will gravitate toward these "easy" planes for myriad reasons at least for some part of their career in AH. You cannot deny that.
Pretending it's "only the pilot" is foolish and narrow-visioned.
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That is a demonstrably false statement. While there are good and bad pilots, there are also universally agreed upon characteristics/traits that make some planes far easier than others.
It is a fact. Some planes allow you to do more with less input and no penalty. Lesser skilled pilots will gravitate toward these "easy" planes for myriad reasons at least for some part of their career in AH. You cannot deny that.
Pretending it's "only the pilot" is foolish and narrow-visioned.
Yes we all know your claims of spits with anti grav units.
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Insulting and pedantic as always krusty.
While a good plane can make a good pilot shine, a good pilot can make a mediocre plane shine just as bright. And even the the best plane can't help an incompetent pilot; just look at the Jellyfish (not going tell who it is) infesting Ch 200. He flys an La-7 a lot (one of the best planes in the game despite its reputation), yet hes still not all that much of a threat if you can avoid the long, strait passes he likes to make.
109K4 is a good plane, but its difficult to fly. Takes a good pilot to make it shine. Again, the pilot what makes any plane deadly. Thats not to say a good P-40 pilot will always beat an average Spitfire pilot, but he has a decent chance anyway.
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Yes, more people have finally realized that spitfires are dweeb planes and should be left in the hanger, the scrap yard not being modeled yet.
I've seen this statement oh, way too many times to count. Any chance you could take a moment and justify the statement? I'm pretty interested in two things really;
1. Dweeb Planes: True definition in your best words
2. What about the plane makes it less or more desirable to take out of the hanger.
I suspect the true aim of the statement is towards those who game with them but in the interest of fairness it would be nice to see your explanation; if you would. If this has been asked and answered elswhere just let me know, I can search the BBS later.
Thanks
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I'd rather see a Spit (any mk, any alt) coming my way than a P-51 or 190.
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Yes we all know your claims of spits with anti grav units.
I'm sorry. I don't feed the trolls.
Insulting and pedantic as always krusty.
I'm sorry. I don't feed the trolls.
I'm not talking spitfires. Any plane. You cannot pin success on the pilot alone. The pilot and the plane combined produce the end result. Saying a good plane makes a bad pilot better, but a good pilot makes a bad plane better is repeating yourself. You cannot separate the 2 halfs of the equation, because both are just as vitally important to the outcome as each other.
A great pilot in a sing Ju88A-4 against an average pilot in a Fw190A8 isn't going to stand a chance. The plane is important. I want to stress that. I'm not saying the pilot is meaningless, I'm simply calling out all those that claim "It's the pilot, not the plane" because that is a false claim.
If it were the pilot, not the plane, we wouldn't have needed anything more than Jenny trainers to win WW2.
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I don't care what plane the nme is in I am fighting it :aok
but I also believe it definitely is not 100% pilot, the plane absolutely has at least 50% equated into the factor of who will win the engagement, maybe even more.
I used to believe it was mostly about who was flying said plane....two equal pilots same alt and E...the one in the lesser plane will lose every time....
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I'd rather see a Spit (any mk, any alt) coming my way than a P-51 or 190.
This! Even worse in my mind a corsair
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the more people whine about the spit16 the more i want to fly it :devil
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Pretending it's "only the pilot" is foolish and narrow-visioned.
Whether or not a plane is easy to fly or has gentle flight characteristics is actually irrelevant. As I stated before, there are no dweeb planes, just dweeb pilots. The La7 doesn't make the pilot fire on a head on pass, the P-51D doesn't force the pilot's nuts to shrivel up and run from a fight. So, in short, you are incorrect in this regard as "it's the pilot" is very much what it is and definitely not the plane.
ack-ack
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I think it more that they get tired of chasing the runners, so they switch to a plane that can go faster. :bolt:
Fred
QFT... at least from my perspective...
Lala = pwnsauce
:aok
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Your focus on "dweeb" is where you split away from what I was talking about.
I'm not making qualifications like "dweeb" or "elite" -- they have totally subjective connotations.
I'm talking skill and capability, "relatively objective" things (far more objective than "dweeb" and its loaded meaning) that would play a big hand in the outcome of a fight.
The pilot of an I-16 can determine the outcome of a fight, but sometimes the nimbleness of his ride determines what the pilot can and cannot do. Fly a Fw190 like an I-16, and no matter how good a pilot you are you won't turn any tighter than the plane's wing shape and weight will allow. You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.
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the only dweebs are those that insist on labeling planes "dweeb planes" as there are no dweeb planes, only dweeb pilots.
ack-ack
And the truth shall set you free.
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I'm sorry. I don't feed the trolls.
And I am not the one that had a bs meter named after me by HT himself. :aok
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Spitfire usage went down a bit and Pony usage went up.
Kinda explains the flight modeling of the Ponies as of late.
:noid
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I've seen this statement oh, way too many times to count. Any chance you could take a moment and justify the statement? I'm pretty interested in two things really;
1. Dweeb Planes: True definition in your best words
2. What about the plane makes it less or more desirable to take out of the hanger.
1) If I had to define it, I'd say its a plane easy to fly, even for new members, that requires almost no forethought or planning as to the situation before entering an even-numbers engagment at approximatly the same altitude.
But personally, I'd say its more of a state of being on the pilot's part, and that state of being is imparted on the plane. P-51's have a reputation for running, even though some sticks are great fights in the P-51. Niki's have a reputation for ho'ing even though some will never ho.
Spitfire seems to have a reputation for being flown by pilots capable of handling more advanced-level planes, yet that choose to fly the spitfire because it means they don't really have to do any managment of their aircraft.
EDIT: 2) Thats a matter of personal opinion. For some its based purely on preformance and ordnance carrying capability, sentimental for some, ENY for others, etc. For me, I like a plane that takes more skill to fly well, K4 and 190 in particular. I've even started recieving "wow, you're great in that *xy plane*" messages, which has me feeling great.
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While I don't think the spixteen should be perked since in the hands of a noob it gives them a decent chance at survival, I do believe that it, along with other 'state of the art' aircraft should be tied to large airfields that could support the upkeep and maintenance of such planes. A list of aircraft I believe should be large field only are:
B-29
AR234
ME262
Spitfire XIV and XVI
Tempest
Ta152
(ME163 excluded for obvious reasons)
These aircraft in my opinion were seen less in conflict, and had smaller theatres of operation due to the fact that they were new, required a lot of logistical support, and in instances of the B-29, 234 and 262 simply couldn't take off from many air fields. There are a ton of things this could help effect in game play from the realism side of fuel consumption and throttle control to the tactical side of making certain fields worth more and actually worth attacking or defending.
Flame on...
You're off your rocker in regards to the Spitfires and Tempest. All of those were operated from forward airfields in Europe as the Allies advanced.
Do you know where else your "state of the art", hard to maintain Spitfire Mk XIV operated in WWII? India and Burma, which you might be aware were not airplane friendly parts of the world.
Kinda explains the flight modeling of the Ponies as of late.
:noid
No flight modeling changes to the P-51D that I know of.
Spitfire seems to have a reputation for being flown by pilots capable of handling more advanced-level planes, yet that choose to fly the spitfire because it means they don't really have to do any managment of their aircraft.
You know, the Spitfire is a rather liked airplane for historical reasons. People choosing to fly aircraft for historical reasons is not limited to American and German aircraft.
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theyre perked now :O
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theyre perked now :O
Lol :lol.
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You're off your rocker in regards to the Spitfires and Tempest. All of those were operated from forward airfields in Europe as the Allies advanced.
Do you know where else your "state of the art", hard to maintain Spitfire Mk XIV operated in WWII? India and Burma, which you might be aware were not airplane friendly parts of the world.
No flight modeling changes to the P-51D that I know of.You know, the Spitfire is a rather liked airplane for historical reasons. People choosing to fly aircraft for historical reasons is not limited to American and German aircraft.
I agree with you Karnak on most of your points but I'd like to point out that the 'real' spit 16 saw very little combat. What we have in game is mis labeled. Its not a spit 16, its a very late war spit 9 variant (I believe its a IXe).
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I agree with you Karnak on most of your points but I'd like to point out that the 'real' spit 16 saw very little combat. What we have in game is mis labeled. Its not a spit 16, its a very late war spit 9 variant (I believe its a IXe).
As has been pointed out over and over and over, the Spitfire Mk XVI, which is indistinguishable, other than a slightly different FTH height, from the Spitfire LF.Mk IXe, saw plenty of combat. All the claims that it saw almost no combat are based on a misreading of the amount of combat seen by a single, specific Spitfire Mk XVI airframe. Somehow, people keep reading that airframe's combat as the total amount of combat seen by all Spitfire Mk XVIs, which it most certainly was not.
Stop repeating that BS.
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I think it more that they get tired of chasing the runners, so they switch to a plane that can go faster. :bolt:
Fred
The problem with the chasing runners with the P-51D is that once you catch them, you'll have to fight them... The Mustang is great near its corner velocity, but get much below that and it will have trouble with most of the plane-set. If you spot a P-51 chasing you, before the range drops much below 2k, reverse into it and in most cases, the P-51 will be doing the running in short order.. There are exceptions, where a skilled pilot is flying the P-51, but they're few and far between.
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As has been pointed out over and over and over, the Spitfire Mk XVI, which is indistinguishable, other than a slightly different FTH height, from the Spitfire LF.Mk IXe, saw plenty of combat. All the claims that it saw almost no combat are based on a misreading of the amount of combat seen by a single, specific Spitfire Mk XVI airframe. Somehow, people keep reading that airframe's combat as the total amount of combat seen by all Spitfire Mk XVIs, which it most certainly was not.
Stop repeating that BS.
didn't the airframe marked as a spit 16 have an engine that went to a higher boost?
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The problem with the chasing runners with the P-51D is that once you catch them, you'll have to fight them... The Mustang is great near its corner velocity, but get much below that and it will have trouble with most of the plane-set. If you spot a P-51 chasing you, before the range drops much below 2k, reverse into it and in most cases, the P-51 will be doing the running in short order.. There are exceptions, where a skilled pilot is flying the P-51, but they're few and far between.
Werd.
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didn't the airframe marked as a spit 16 have an engine that went to a higher boost?
No. It has a Merlin 266, which is the Packard built version of the Merlin 66 that the Spitfire LF.Mk IX and LF.Mk VIII (what we have in AH's Mk VIII) had. It is identical except for being tooled to American measurements, the specific cause of it being labeled a Mk XVI instead of a Mk IX, and having a FTH height 1000ft above the Merlin 66's. Boost settings were exactly the same.
EDIT:
You may be thinking of the +25lbs boost setting. That was the boost setting for both the LF.Mk IX and the Mk XVI when running on 150 octane. In AH we have 100 octane and both would have run at +18lbs boost on that fuel.
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You may be thinking of the +25lbs boost setting. That was the boost setting for both the LF.Mk IX and the Mk XVI when running on 150 octane. In AH we have 100 octane and both would have run at +18lbs boost on that fuel.
yes :aok thanks for clarifying that.
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At +25lbs boost the Spitfire LF.Mk IX or Mk XVI would definitely be a perk plane in AH. ~360mph on the deck and an initial climb rate of ~5,700fpm.
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At +25lbs boost the Spitfire LF.Mk IX or Mk XVI would definitely be a perk plane in AH. ~360mph on the deck and an initial climb rate of ~5,700fpm.
I believe there was a 109k with higher boost that used a higher octane fuel too, a matching candidate for perking.
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Other Allied fighters that used 150 octane fuel with similar boosts:
Mosquito FB.Mk VI
P-47M
P-51D
Spitfire Mk XIV
Tempest Mk V
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All I have to say is that if the allies get 150 octane fuel, the Germans should get the methanol boost.
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Your focus on "dweeb" is where you split away from what I was talking about.
I'm not making qualifications like "dweeb" or "elite" -- they have totally subjective connotations.
I'm talking skill and capability, "relatively objective" things (far more objective than "dweeb" and its loaded meaning) that would play a big hand in the outcome of a fight.
The pilot of an I-16 can determine the outcome of a fight, but sometimes the nimbleness of his ride determines what the pilot can and cannot do. Fly a Fw190 like an I-16, and no matter how good a pilot you are you won't turn any tighter than the plane's wing shape and weight will allow. You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.
This.
EZ Planes:
Spits, N1Ks, P51Ds, Typhoons, HurriC, Zero
Non-EZ Planes (Yet still LW competitive):
P38s, 109s, 190s (Fighting in them), C205, Mosquito, Yaks
I figured I'd make the official list so there is no confusion. :neener: @ Ez Moders
Make no mistake, just because you fly an easy plane does not make you any less skilled. Inversely, flying a Non-EZ plane does not make you any more skilled (Ahem, FlyinFin).
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All I have to say is that if the allies get 150 octane fuel, the Germans should get the methanol boost.
They already do.
That said, nobody is suggesting that 150 octane will be modeled.
I do think it should be modeled for the Spitfire Mk XIV if it is to remain a perk plane though.
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I agree with you Karnak on most of your points but I'd like to point out that the 'real' spit 16 saw very little combat. What we have in game is mis labeled. Its not a spit 16, its a very late war spit 9 variant (I believe its a IXe).
Ardy, if you believe that, then the 190D9 saw little combat and the Ta152 none at all :) Spit XIV was in combat in the spring of 44. Spit XVI in the Fall of 44. D9 was October 44, TA in the Spring of 45.
The 109K 4 appeared at the same time as the Spit XVI. We're gonna have to define 'a little combat' a bit better :)
For the 1000th time. The Spitfire XVIe is identical to the Spitfire LFIXe. Same airframe. I can post back to back serial numbered Spits, the first an IX and the next an XVI. Only difference was if they put a Packard Merlin 266 in it or a Rolls Merlin 66.
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This.
EZ Planes:
Spits, N1Ks, P51Ds, Typhoons, HurriC, Zero
Non-EZ Planes (Yet still LW competitive):
P38s, 109s, 190s (Fighting in them), C205, Mosquito, Yaks
I figured I'd make the official list so there is no confusion. :neener: @ Ez Moders
Make no mistake, just because you fly an easy plane does not make you any less skilled. Inversely, flying a Non-EZ plane does not make you any more skilled (Ahem, FlyinFin).
I don't consider a Zero to be an EZ plane for the simple reason of armor. 1 or 2 well placed 50 cal rounds will end up flaming the plane or knocking off a part. It does not sponge damage well at all, so takes a lot of SA to fly with any sort of success... Yes, it's nimble in a turn and has decent climb, however, if you don't handle it nicely it'll bleed E quickly, and the best you can hope for is spoiling 1 or 2 passes, not getting a kill.
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Ardy, if you believe that, then the 190D9 saw little combat and the Ta152 none at all :)
Oh I agree the TA-512 saw next to no combat.
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I'd like to see the Fw-190 D11 introduced as a perk plane someday.
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Oh I agree the TA-512 saw next to no combat.
But the point is, the XVI is as much of a combat vet as the 109K4, D9 etc. I wish whoever it was that posted that totally inaccurate information about the Spit XVI way back when had taken two minutes to do a little research. It's amazing how that little piece of BS has been perpetuated in AH :)
So which is the IX and which is the XVI? :)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Spit2-1.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Spitfire4.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Spitfire3.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Spitfire2.jpg)
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Ardy, if you believe that, then the 190D9 saw little combat and the Ta152 none at all :) Spit XIV was in combat in the spring of 44. Spit XVI in the Fall of 44. D9 was October 44, TA in the Spring of 45.
The 109K 4 appeared at the same time as the Spit XVI. We're gonna have to define 'a little combat' a bit better :)
For the 1000th time. The Spitfire XVIe is identical to the Spitfire LFIXe. Same airframe. I can post back to back serial numbered Spits, the first an IX and the next an XVI. Only difference was if they put a Packard Merlin 266 in it or a Rolls Merlin 66.
Jan 45 152
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I'd like to see the Fw-190 D11 introduced as a perk plane someday.
I wish for the 152 c.
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I don't consider a Zero to be an EZ plane for the simple reason of armor. 1 or 2 well placed 50 cal rounds will end up flaming the plane or knocking off a part. It does not sponge damage well at all, so takes a lot of SA to fly with any sort of success... Yes, it's nimble in a turn and has decent climb, however, if you don't handle it nicely it'll bleed E quickly, and the best you can hope for is spoiling 1 or 2 passes, not getting a kill.
I don't see any skilled pilots flying zeros, yet I see droves of newbs flying zeros. That says enough about it right there. Fact is, it is flown in furballs and is simply just an ez mode pick machine.
The zero was just one EZ mode plane on my list anyways.
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Jan 45 152
That would be about three months after the Spit XVI and you are talking about it going to a unit for conversion training, not combat. The 152 saw very little combat, depending on which source you use, you are talking 7 or 8 kills for 4 losses.
I'm not saying the 152 didn't see some combat. I'm just using it as an example of how silly it is to suggest the Spit XVI saw little combat. In terms of sorties flown and aircraft in squadron use, the 152 is tiny compared to the Spit XVI. Air to Air claims would be far in the XVI's favor as well. The 403 Squadron RCAF Spit XVI we have skinned in game had 3 to it's credit and it did that in less then a month of active flying being delivered to 403 Squadron on April 19, 1945. It had previously been with 66 Squadron. All of it's kills were with 403 in the last month of the war.
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I wish for the 152 c.
And how many 152C's made it to production, much less to a combat unit? Would that be...none? :)
I'll be begging for my 100 production Spitfire XII's before that happens!
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Saw B-17's post about posting activity and checked mine. Turns out you can go back and look at what you posted. Is it not surprising that my 2nd post on the AH BBS in July 2001 was about Spitfire LFIXe and LFXVI being identical except for the producer of the engines! 10 #$%#%@ years of this same stupid stuff! :)
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They already do.
That said, nobody is suggesting that 150 octane will be modeled.
I do think it should be modeled for the Spitfire Mk XIV if it is to remain a perk plane though.
Then the A5 is just plain underpowered. It could do 352mph on the deck.
And what was the preformance of the 14 with 150 octane?
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From www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o rg
+21lbs boost, the rating 150 octane gave it during the war:
(http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit14at21.jpg)
+25lbs boost would be fun, but it wasn't cleared for it during the war:
(http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit14+25lbs.jpg)
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The war wasnt fought by spit14s on 150 octane...
Imagine that plane: 400mph otd, possibly about 470 at altitude (just speculation), can turn around in 16 seconds on an 550 yards circle, has dual hizookas + 2 MGs, can climb with about 5500feet/min...
That would be perked to 100. The spit14 in that config would beat the Tempy in everything but guns.
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(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q96/Shuff_photos/animated_fish_4070638.gif)
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the only dweebs are those that insist on labeling planes "dweeb planes" as there are no dweeb planes, only dweeb pilots.
ack-ack
+100 million. I get so tired of folks labeling a plane as a dweeb ride or a hanger queen because it's a plane they do not fly.
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+100 million. I get so tired of folks labeling a plane as a dweeb ride or a hanger queen because it's a plane they do not fly.
There are not dweeb rides but there are EZ rides.
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There are not dweeb rides but there are EZ rides.
No such thing as EZ rides, just planes that some folks have taken the time to get good in. Take for instance the K-4 or 262 is your own dweeb ride. Mine would be a Spit 8 or Hurri IID. Just saying... :aok
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No such thing as EZ rides, just planes that some folks have taken the time to get good in. Take for instance the K-4 or 262 is your own dweeb ride. Mine would be a Spit 8 or Hurri IID. Just saying... :aok
I think I've flown the Spit8 once in the past 5 years and I'm fairly confident I could take one up today and get at least 10 kills with the Laser Guided Hispanos and general Spitfire qualities. Sorry but it is an EZ ride.
I remember m00t doing this a while back when he took up a Spit16 and fought in like a 6v1 and killed all of them. I think it was even on youtube. He was simply showing how uber and EZ the plane is to fly.
And in a nutshell, anything with hispanos is an EZ ride. Firing hispanos is like firing from a 5 incher. There, I said it.
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I think I've flown the Spit8 once in the past 5 years and I'm fairly confident I could take one up today and get at least 10 kills with the Laser Guided Hispanos and general Spitfire qualities. Sorry but it is an EZ ride.
I remember m00t doing this a while back when he took up a Spit16 and fought in like a 6v1 and killed all of them. I think it was even on youtube. He was simply showing how uber and EZ the plane is to fly.
And in a nutshell, anything with hispanos is an EZ ride. There, I said it.
Purely subjective. You know what I am saying and I am not doubting your ability to kill in a hispano equpped plane. I think your need to discount as EZ any planes other than your preferred rides is well silly and typical. So you do not debate that after mastering planes like the K-4 or 262 they are not EZ for you? I think they are.
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Purely subjective. You know what I am saying and I am not doubting your ability to kill in a hispano equpped plane. I think your need to discount as EZ any planes other than your preferred rides is well silly and typical.
Oh believe me I'm not discounting planes as EZ that I do not fly. I stay out of P38s yet I have plenty of respect for those that fly that thing. I also have lots of respect for Yak pilots and even P51D pilots that turn the heck out of those things, like BigR. (Even though in general the 51 is an ez mode aircraft)
So you do not debate that after mastering planes like the K-4 or 262 they are not EZ for you? I think they are.
I'm not saying the K4 is the toughest bird in the game, but its statistical record speaks for itself and shows that it is not EZ mode. Skillless players avoid it like the plague and stick with their "mastered" rides such as the Spit16, N1K, and HurriC. :rofl
Why do players with less skill gravitate towards mastering rides that I have listed as EZ mode hmmm? :P
As for myself, if I could be guaranteed that B&Z tards would not run from me, and that gangs of Spits would not chase me down, I would fly 109G6's, 109G2's, 109F4's, and C205's all the time. But the fact of the matter is, I need something fast and marginally maneuverable so when I bait the P51D in by showing him just enough leg to make him bleed off all of his E just so he can shoot the paint off my tail before realizing he is screwed, he cannot simply stick stir away from me to his friends. :aok
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Grizz, thats because you've put the time and effort into learning acm, shooting etc - and as skillsets are transferrable across planes - you find it easy.
Not ankle humping, just an observation. The rest of us either have no inclination to do the above, or lack the skills to be as good as you and others ingame (that's me to a t right there)
Wurz
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Grizz, thats because you've put the time and effort into learning acm, shooting etc - and as skillsets are transferrable across planes - you find it easy.
Not ankle humping, just an observation. The rest of us either have no inclination to do the above, or lack the skills to be as good as you and others ingame (that's me to a t right there)
Wurz
True, but I'm just calling it like I see it. If a player doesn't like the fact that he flies an EZ plane, then he can do something about it. If he wants to pretend it is not EZ because other EZ moders tell him it is not EZ, that's fine also, but I am laughing. :lol
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:D All very true fella. Spits are easy to fly, but I need all the help I can get.
:neener:
Wurz
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And a K-4 is EZ mode compared to a 39D...just saying
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I'm not saying the K4 is the toughest bird in the game, but its statistical record speaks for itself and shows that it is not EZ mode. Skillless players avoid it like the plague and stick with their "mastered" rides such as the Spit16, N1K, and HurriC. :rofl
Its statistical record? Go look at the chart that Lusche posted earlier in this thread. Fewer people fly the HurriC than fly the 109K, and it has a comparatively lower K/D ratio. The N1K has a lower K/D too, though more people fly it than the 109K. The Spit VIII, Spit IX, Seafire and Spit V, all sporting the uber Hispanos, see lower usage and possess lower K/D ratios than the 109K.
I get what you're trying to say, but you can't quantify it. The statistical record doesn't support your claim.
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Its statistical record? Go look at the chart that Lusche posted earlier in this thread. Fewer people fly the HurriC than fly the 109K, and it has a comparatively lower K/D ratio. The N1K has a lower K/D too, though more people fly it than the 109K. The Spit VIII, Spit IX, Seafire and Spit V, all sporting the uber Hispanos, see lower usage and possess lower K/D ratios than the 109K.
I get what you're trying to say, but you can't quantify it. The statistical record doesn't support your claim.
The spit16 has a relative low K/D ratio - 1,16 last month. Lower than the p38G yet the p38g has no chance against a spit16, lower than the ki61 yet the ki61 has no friggen chance, same with the d11jug.
Whys that? Only a very few newbs fly the k-4, ki-61, p-38g or the d11-jug. Yet lotsa new/less skilled payers fly the spit16 couse it can perform very well in every role: its enough to copy your opponents moves.
Dont let me wrong, the K-4 is an extremely capable fighter (yea every time i jump into it after my ride, i feel i got a red bull), just takes some skills to make it dance. Im not talking about the endless rope queens.
Edit: in my ride, me vs a spit16 is very hard to win. Yet me in a spit16 vs three other spit16s is MUCH easyer. Even tho i almost never fly spits and the real spit aces kill me in two turns in them while i can hold my own in the g-6 against anyone. Im sorry, Waystin, but i have to disagree with you in this.
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I'm not saying the K4 is the toughest bird in the game, but its statistical record speaks for itself and shows that it is not EZ mode. Skillless players avoid it like the plague and stick with their "mastered" rides such as the Spit16, N1K, and HurriC. :rofl
Why do players with less skill gravitate towards mastering rides that I have listed as EZ mode hmmm? :P
As for myself, if I could be guaranteed that B&Z tards would not run from me, and that gangs of Spits would not chase me down, I would fly 109G6's, 109G2's, 109F4's, and C205's all the time. But the fact of the matter is, I need something fast and marginally maneuverable so when I bait the P51D in by showing him just enough leg to make him bleed off all of his E just so he can shoot the paint off my tail before realizing he is screwed, he cannot simply stick stir away from me to his friends. :aok
[/quote]
Again another unquantifiable statement. Skill-less players gravitate towards these types of rides. I only fly fast and maneuverable because other people fly fast and maneuverable planes. You are contradicting yourself all over here Grizz. I postulate that Moot's killing of six cons with a Spit 16 is a reflection of his experience and skill, a low eny plane and an extreme lack of coordination between the cons he killed. Not some supposed uberness or edge that specific plane gave him. How about we recreate his feat since the Spit 16 adds so much to a pilots skill level? I'll pull 6 pilots not in Spit 16's against any player in the game in a Spit 16 (yourself included), and I can guarantee that they go down in flames. Anybody want to help Grizz prove his point? I think it's more muppet fluff talk and online bravado. Bear in mind I have always thought you to be a great pilot, but sometimes you say the silliest stuff.
Its statistical record? Go look at the chart that Lusche posted earlier in this thread. Fewer people fly the HurriC than fly the 109K, and it has a comparatively lower K/D ratio. The N1K has a lower K/D too, though more people fly it than the 109K. The Spit VIII, Spit IX, Seafire and Spit V, all sporting the uber Hispanos, see lower usage and possess lower K/D ratios than the 109K.
I get what you're trying to say, but you can't quantify it. The statistical record doesn't support your claim.
Thank you Dead. It's what I am talking about. EZ is what you are familiar with, not a broad category of air craft.
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No such thing as EZ rides, just planes that some folks have taken the time to get good in. Take for instance the K-4 or 262 is your own dweeb ride. Mine would be a Spit 8 or Hurri IID. Just saying... :aok
Having had basicly 0 flight time in the spitfires for the past year and a half, I took out the spit16 and did fair in it. Not many fighter kills, but I did much better than a spit pilot stepping into the 109K for the first time in a year would have.
Spit = documented and confirmed EZ mode plane :P.
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Its statistical record? Go look at the chart that Lusche posted earlier in this thread. Fewer people fly the HurriC than fly the 109K, and it has a comparatively lower K/D ratio. The N1K has a lower K/D too, though more people fly it than the 109K. The Spit VIII, Spit IX, Seafire and Spit V, all sporting the uber Hispanos, see lower usage and possess lower K/D ratios than the 109K.
I get what you're trying to say, but you can't quantify it. The statistical record doesn't support your claim.
The 109K4(And the 38) crowd is generally more skilled than the Spit/N1k crowd, which explains the discrepancy in K/D. The 109K4 popularity has certainly increased the past year, year and a half, but it is flown by a more advanced player which is where the statistical discrepancies lie.
Those statistics however, do not paint a clear picture, because if you took the entire K4 community, put them in Spit8's/Spit16's, and the entire Spit8/Spit16 community and put them in K4s, the stats would be something entirely different. The Spits would have incredibly dominating statistics. This obviously cannot be proven because God knows the K4 community does not want to fly spits and God knows the spitfire community cannot fly K4s, but any vet knows this to be accurate. (And before The Few come in and defend the spit and their undisputed skill, there are exceptions to this glaringly obvious point I am making)
Fact of the matter is, noobs generally fly spits, 51ds, n1ks, and hurrics. Noobs generally do not fly 109s. That is the only metric you need to measure what the EZ planes are.
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And before The Few come in and defend the spit and their undisputed skill, there are exceptions to this glaringly obvious point I am making
I take exception to that point of view, I'm in The Few, and have no skills to talk about :D
And you'd be right about most of the spit drivers struggling in the 109's I suspect.
Wurz
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Grizz had the right of it there. The K4 also has the spud gun, the least newb-friendly gun in the game.
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i flew a 262 for the first time last night,the last time i flew one was well over 6 months ago, I landed 3 kills with plenty of ammo left just no Fuel. Now was it the Plane, the Pilot or the circumstances of how the kills were achieved? easy mode planes are only easy for the people who spend the time in them and have great overall skills in combat fighting.
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I'll put it this way....
bunnies in a Spit16 easily kills bunnies in a k4.
bunnies in a ki84 easily kills bunnies in a k4
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Grizz had the right of it there. The K4 also has the spud gun, the least newb-friendly gun in the game.
Now we are talking about something different Tank. Bad ballistics on the Germans part is not a quanitifier for what is EZ.
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Attempted defense of EZ mode planes
It's kind of like when you are a 5 year old and are learning how to ride a bike with plastic training wheels, hot pink, and a my little pony sticker on the side. You sure have gotten good with that thing. You can take it off jumps and spin it out and pop some wheels and it's all great, it really is. But at the end of the day you are still riding a pink bike with training wheels and a my little pony sticker on the side while all the big kids ride around on huffys laughing at you. :lol
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Now we are talking about something different Tank. Bad ballistics on the Germans part is not a quanitifier for what is EZ.
The hell it isn't. The single most important thing in the MA is killing your enemies quickly otherwise you get swarmed. The EZ mode crutch of hispanos allows the less skilled player to do just that, kill quickly, while the K4 pilot has to earn his shot.
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Insert nonsensical and typical Muffpit online banter with little or no basis in reality
Well here is the part of thread where you can put the money on the table Grizz. Take the challenge. Show me how much the Spit 16 adds to an already admittedly great pilots skill. I want to learn. You know as well as I do that the Muffpit bravado banter does'nt work on me. Waiting....
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Well here is the part of thread where you can put the money on the table Grizz. Take the challenge. Show me how much the Spit 16 adds to an already admittedly great pilots skill. I want to learn. You know as well as I do that the Muffpit bravado banter does'nt work on me. Waiting....
Your proposed experiment was ridiculous at best, utterly moronic at worst. Propose something a little more reasonable. How about You, and three more experten Pigs all in K4s vs me in a Spit16. Best of 5 Wins.
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The 109K4(And the 38) crowd is generally more skilled than the Spit/N1k crowd, which explains the discrepancy in K/D. The 109K4 popularity has certainly increased the past year, year and a half, but it is flown by a more advanced player which is where the statistical discrepancies.
But you said that the statistics back up your position, and they don't. Now you're offering up a theory for why the 109K performs so well and is flown so frequently. Is it valid? To a degree, but I think you overstate it. In any event, the statistics don't speak for themselves, because you just had to speak for them.
Those statistics however, do not paint a clear picture, because if you took the entire K4 community, put them in Spit8's/Spit16's, and the entire Spit8/Spit16 community and put them in K4s, the stats would be something entirely different. The Spits would have incredibly dominating statistics. This obviously cannot be proven because God knows the K4 community does not want to fly spits and God knows the spitfire community cannot fly K4s, but any vet knows this to be accurate. (And before The Few come in and defend the spit and their undisputed skill, there are exceptions to this glaringly obvious point I am making)
I'm not sure I agree with that. Do you honestly think you could have done your 100 kill sortie in a Spit?
Fact of the matter is, noobs generally fly spits, 51ds, n1ks, and hurrics. Noobs generally do not fly 109s. That is the only metric you need to measure what the EZ planes are.
Now you just changed your criteria for what makes something "EZ." How do you know a lot of noobs don't fly 109Ks? Clearly somebody's flying it a lot, and it can't all be vets.
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zomg seriously
Nothing better to do than argue about whats EZ mode?
Waystin is right somewhere: if there are two planes, ""close in performance"", the one you fly a lot will be EZ mode for you against the other you never fly.
BUT: if you have a plane what rolls like a 190, turns like a spit9, has two laser guided hizookas aka has a fatal snapshot, fast like a G-14, climbs like a K-4... holy Hell, that sure isnt EZ mode for those who alredy pwns most here in a much less turny ride. Plz, think about it.
Im up for the challenge. Any spit16 hero vs me. Spit16 vs G-6 first. Then Spit16 vs spit16. Then G-6 vs spit16. Ill be on from early September. Whos in?
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Grizz had the right of it there. The K4 also has the spud gun, the least newb-friendly gun in the game.
Take that "spud" gun off and see the numbers who use it drop off, any plane that carries taters is "Easy Mode" period.
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But you said that the statistics back up your position, and they don't. Now you're offering up a theory for why the 109K performs so well and is flown so frequently. Is it valid? To a degree, but I think you overstate it. In any event, the statistics don't speak for themselves, because you just had to speak for them.
The statistics do not speak for themselves entirely anymore. A year ago they did, but the plane has grown significantly in popularity. Look back at Tour 120, 121ish. Even the Spit9 had more kills. Perhaps because the Muppets have brought popularity to the plane and have also helped interested pilots looking to get out of their EZ modes with helpful training.
I'm not sure I agree with that. Do you honestly think you could have done your 100 kill sortie in a Spit?
Well of course not, I don't think any prop plane can do that in any reasonable way.
Now you just changed your criteria for what makes something "EZ." How do you know a lot of noobs don't fly 109Ks? Clearly somebody's flying it a lot, and it can't all be vets.
Didn't change it, simply added to it. Most people that fly the K4 have been around, it has gained quite a bit of popularity the past year. Rarely do I kill a K4 and it was some guy I never heard of. Most times I engage a K4 he demonstrates that he at least has a clue what is going on. Rarely does a K4 ever try to HO me. There is a noticeable difference between a K4 pilot's approach to ACM and dogfighting than a N1K or Spit pilot's.
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Take that "spud" gun off and see the numbers who use it drop off, any plane that carries taters is "Easy Mode" period.
Awesome! You and Waystin in K4s vs Me in a Spit16. Bring two more friends also. Best of 5.
If you guys are so confident it can be just the two of you, but something tells me you will be sure to find your best 4 pigs. :lol
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I would like to point out that the stats point to the majority of kills were made by 4 people in the k4.
(http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/3662/k4ownage.png)
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I would like to point out that the stats point to the majority of kills were made by 4 people in the k4.
That's not even close to a majority based on that chart.
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where the spit 16 distribution is not so extreme
(http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/6034/spit16.png)
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Lower than the p38G yet the p38g has no chance against a spit16
It actually does but you really wouldn't know that.
ack-ack
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How'd you get that chart?
Oh hey, I'm purple.
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That's not even close to a majority based on that chart.
Not but the key is the distribution as a percentage, Grizz, Bunnies and Dennis make up over 30% of the kills in a k4. The percentage was greater than the top sticks of the spit 16 pie chart. This implies that more people find it difficult to be successful in the k4 than the spit 16.
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It actually does but you really wouldn't know that.
ack-ack
My spit16 vs your P38g best of 20, you won't win a fight.
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How'd you get that chart?
Oh hey, I'm purple.
Copy the info from the stats page into a .csv file. Then open the .csv file in excel using 'tabs' as the delimiter. Then tell it to sort the data and visualize it.
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Spit = documented and confirmed EZ mode plane :P.
It's been documented since the Spitfire was first designed, pilots that flew it in real life praised it's great handling and ease of flying. Honestly, who really cares if a plane is easier to fly than others? Does it really kick player's egos in the bellybutton when they get shot down by a plane they feel is an "EZ Mode" plane? Does it somehow make the player that lost feel better knowing that, in his little feeble mind, that he lost not due to a mistake or lack of skill on his part or being out flown but rather because the plane he fought against was easier to fly? With thinking like that, are you not surprised the majority that play couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag with a hole in it?
ack-ack
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where the spit 16 distribution is not so extreme
(http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/6034/spit16.png)
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. The Spit XVI sees twice the usage of the 109K. That being the case, even if the top 3-4 Spit pilots killed the same number of enemies over a six month period as the top 3-4 109K pilots, they'd still represent a relatively smaller proportion of the overall pie.
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The 109K4(And the 38) crowd is generally more skilled than the Spit/N1k crowd, which explains the discrepancy in K/D.
It depends on which P-38. The discrepancy is found usually with the G and the J model, not the L so you can't lump in all the P-38s as each one has it's own tale to tell.
ack-ack
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Your proposed experiment was ridiculous at best, utterly moronic at worst. Propose something a little more reasonable. How about You, and three more experten Pigs all in K4s vs me in a Spit16. Best of 5 Wins.
Now wait a sec Grizz, you are besmirching Moot's awesome sortie to prove the Spit 16's uberness. Wasn't it six planes that the EZ Spit 16 gave him super powers to defeat? Were they all K-4's? Did he ask two to stand aside while he dealt with the first four? Did he get a best of 5 opportunity? I need not have you try, perhaps some other pilot that feels the Spit 16 is EZ and therefore gives an edge to the pilot flying it can at least meet the challenge. You cannot seem to back up your cited evidence. Seems to me that the EZ Spit 16 you were talking about is not enough even with a great pilot behind the stick. Therefore not so EZ. My thought is that the amazing feat is only repeatable against newb pilots that are not coordinated. Cool sortie for Moot, but proves little else. I appreciate your counter offer, but all of us fly our own EZ planes everyday in the arenas and land four kills. Further they never get to pick their opponents planes. Now I have not trashed you and have acknowledged your skill, but silly categorizations of planes due to a persons preferences are just that, silly.
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Not but the key is the distribution as a percentage, Grizz, Bunnies and Dennis make up over 30% of the kills in a k4. The percentage was greater than the top sticks of the spit 16 pie chart. This implies that more people find it difficult to be successful in the k4 than the spit 16.
That's not what that says at all.
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I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. The Spit XVI sees twice the usage of the 109K. That being the case, even if the top 3-4 Spit pilots killed the same number of enemies over a six month period as the top 3-4 109K pilots, they'd still represent a relatively smaller proportion of the overall pie.
Any ideas on a better quantitative metric which one can easily get data for?
I thought about using k/d as a third field, but mining the data would take forever, as I would have to dig up each pilots kills and deaths listed and then do the division.
That's not what that says at all.
enlighten us then...
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Now wait a sec Grizz, you are besmirching Moot's awesome sortie to prove the Spit 16's uberness. Wasn't it six planes that the EZ Spit 16 gave him super powers to defeat? Were they all K-4's? Did he ask two to stand aside while he dealt with the first four? Did he get a best of 5 opportunity? I need not have you try, perhaps some other pilot that feels the Spit 16 is EZ and therefore gives an edge to the pilot flying it can at least meet the challenge. You cannot seem to back up your cited evidence. Seems to me that the EZ Spit 16 you were talking about is not enough even with a great pilot behind the stick. Therefore not so EZ. My thought is that the amazing feat is only repeatable against newb pilots that are not coordinated. Cool sortie for Moot, but proves little else. I appreciate your counter offer, but all of us fly our own EZ planes everyday in the arenas and land four kills. Further they never get to pick their opponents planes. Now I have not trashed you and have acknowledged your skill, but silly categorizations of planes due to a persons preferences are just that, silly.
You, Zoom, and 2 other pigs in Bf109K4's vs my Spit16 best of 5. If you cannot accept this generous challenge, then you have proven my point. In fact I am hoping you skirt away from it because winning a 4v1 best of 5 against 4 vets will be quite a task, even for me in the easiest plane in the game.
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It depends on which P-38. The discrepancy is found usually with the G and the J model, not the L so you can't lump in all the P-38s as each one has it's own tale to tell.
ack-ack
Okay the 38J crowd then. :airplane:
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Any ideas on a better quantitative metric which one can easily get data for?
Not really. It's just really hard to try to prove what you're saying with the data available. The total number of kills can be a function of time played as much as anything. You can still get 100+ kills with a 0.5 K/D ratio if you're flying for 100 hours a month. The graph just isn't very informative with respect to pilot skill.
enlighten us then...
I'll try. Just to give a personal example by hopping into the Way Back Machine, there was a time where myself (flying as Calamari), ManeTMP, and Vulcan constituted an overwhelming majority of the Typhoon kills in the game. This wasn't because we were particularly expert in the Typhoon, but rather because literally nobody flew Typhoons back then. I'm just making up these numbers, but let's say that between the three of us, we produced 500 kills per tour in the Tiffie. Since so few people flew the plane, the total number of kills was, say, 800 - meaning that the three of us represented 62.5% of the total kills by that plane. This is without regard to K/D.
Now let's say more people started flying the Typhoon. Suddenly the number of kills doubles in a given tour, but Calamari, ManeTMP, and Vulcan continue to fly as much as they did before. They wrack up another 500 kills between them, but now the overall number of kills by Typhoon has increased from 800 to 1600. Now the three players represent 31.25% of the total number of Typhoon kills. Nothing has changed skill-wise between them, and if anything they've gotten better with experience, yet they represent a smaller percentage of the overall number of kills.
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I would like to point out that the stats point to the majority of kills were made by 4 people in the k4.
Quick glance at tour 138:
Top 10% players in K4 had 70% of the kills in that plane.
Top 10% players in 16 had 66% of kills in that plane.
Not that much of a difference to me, but I'm too tired to think about it.
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You, Zoom, and 2 other pigs in Bf109K4's vs my Spit16 best of 5. If you cannot accept this generous challenge, then you have proven my point. In fact I am hoping you skirt away from it because winning a 4v1 best of 5 against 4 vets will be quite a task, even for me in the easiest plane in the game.
I was trying to duplicate a situation where you as a good pilot could happen upon 6 random planes and show me that the Spit 16 EZ-ness would help a great pilot win such a battle. The conditions have now changed to 4 planes with your choice of opponent's aircraft. This is what I am talking about Grizz. It's the pilot that makes the plane EZ, not the plane itself. You are making great pilot choices in your counter offer, something that a newb has not learned to do. 4 planes/4 pilots accepted, with random planes no perks is my counter. This is my best offer to help you prove the 16's EZ-ness. Mind you by negotiating this test of the plane downward in difficulty it is becoming less EZ looking by the minute in most folks eyes and not the super-powered uber plane that some describe.
Much respect for staying at the table,
Way
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Its statistical record? Go look at the chart that Lusche posted earlier in this thread. Fewer people fly the HurriC than fly the 109K, and it has a comparatively lower K/D ratio. The N1K has a lower K/D too, though more people fly it than the 109K. The Spit VIII, Spit IX, Seafire and Spit V, all sporting the uber Hispanos, see lower usage and possess lower K/D ratios than the 109K.
I get what you're trying to say, but you can't quantify it. The statistical record doesn't support your claim.
Oh I think it does. Factor in that most new folks probably fly the spit because it is easier to fly yet their gunnery is not up to snuff.
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I was trying to duplicate a situation where you as a good pilot could happen upon 6 random planes and show me that the Spit 16 EZ-ness would help a great pilot win such a battle. The conditions have now changed to 4 planes with your choice of opponent's aircraft. This is what I am talking about Grizz. It's the pilot that makes the plane EZ, not the plane itself. You are making great pilot choices in your counter offer, something that a newb has not learned to do. 4 planes/4 pilots accepted, with random planes no perks is my counter. This is my best offer to help you prove the 16's EZ-ness. Mind you by negotiating this test of the plane downward in difficulty it is becoming less EZ looking by the minute in most folks eyes and not the super-powered uber plane that some describe.
Much respect for staying at the table,
Way
You'd rather take 4 random planes than 4 K4s? Okay done.
Someone please randomize our 5 matchups. :aok
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I would like to point out that I was NOT on the K4 list or the spixteen list. :D
I fly the humble, average 9. She does nothing great, she can't run from you, she can't run you down, she can't out climb you, she can't out turn all of you, she takes damage poorly, she can't use superior roll rate, she is just below average at altitude above 17k, she can't out dive you....shes an average girl....but she has HUGE "eyes"!!!!! :x
All spits were not created equal. That is my attempt at explaining away my suckage....now, who wants to win a fight?
Changeup
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You, Zoom, and 2 other pigs in Bf109K4's vs my Spit16 best of 5. If you cannot accept this generous challenge, then you have proven my point. In fact I am hoping you skirt away from it because winning a 4v1 best of 5 against 4 vets will be quite a task, even for me in the easiest plane in the game.
sorry you feel the spotlight is fading and must prove something to someone Grizz. i rarely fly K4's and Spit16's, maybe twice each last tour so i doubt I'm up to "your" level of what a skilled Pilot "should" be, but then again this is a game and I'm not 12 nor does the game or world revolve around me. continue with the banter now. :aok
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You'd rather take 4 random planes than 4 K4s? Okay done.
Someone please randomize our 5 matchups. :aok
Grizz, Way....4 K4s is fine.....random is less uber. Leave it
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continue with the banter now. :aok
Thank you, I will. :aok
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Grizz, Way....4 K4s is fine.....random is less uber. Leave it
4 random planes no perked, that was what waystin wanted. It's a done deal, I accepted already. :aok
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4 random planes no perked, that was what waystin wanted. It's a done deal, I accepted already. :aok
I urge you both to reconsider
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You'd rather take 4 random planes than 4 K4s? Okay done.
Someone please randomize our 5 matchups. :aok
Let me be specific, random to you Sir. You won't know what is coming out until you see it. My thought is like you, we Pigs have our EZ planes that we like to fly so you may see a Spit 9, Hellcat, K-4 and a Spit 8 in the first round. Who knows. If that is acceptable to you, then we can get our testing done. Your help is appreciated in running this experiment. Perhaps we are on to something here and we can establish a criteria for what is truly EZ. :D
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Let me be specific, random to you Sir. You won't know what is coming out until you see it. My thought is like you, we Pigs have our EZ planes that we like to fly so you may see a Spit 9, Hellcat, K-4 and a Spit 8 in the first round. Who knows. If that is acceptable to you, then we can get our testing done. Your help is appreciated in running this experiment. Perhaps we are on to something here and we can establish a criteria for what is truly EZ. :D
cmon you seriously believe that a spit 16 is not easy mode :headscratch:
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I'll try. Just to give a personal example by hopping into the Way Back Machine, there was a time where myself (flying as Calamari), ManeTMP, and Vulcan constituted an overwhelming majority of the Typhoon kills in the game. This wasn't because we were particularly expert in the Typhoon, but rather because literally nobody flew Typhoons back then. I'm just making up these numbers, but let's say that between the three of us, we produced 500 kills per tour in the Tiffie. Since so few people flew the plane, the total number of kills was, say, 800 - meaning that the three of us represented 62.5% of the total kills by that plane. This is without regard to K/D.
Now let's say more people started flying the Typhoon. Suddenly the number of kills doubles in a given tour, but Calamari, ManeTMP, and Vulcan continue to fly as much as they did before. They wrack up another 500 kills between them, but now the overall number of kills by Typhoon has increased from 800 to 1600. Now the three players represent 31.25% of the total number of Typhoon kills. Nothing has changed skill-wise between them, and if anything they've gotten better with experience, yet they represent a smaller percentage of the overall number of kills.
I'll buy that argument, but still I'm struggling to find a 'quantitative' way to measure it. I know that 'bunnies' in a spit 16 will kill 'bunnies' in a k4, but not having two of me, all I can do is state it. Now I guess I could publish a graph that looks at the distribution of kills sans the 10% percent, normalized by the number of flights (a kills per flight ratio). But again, this data is easily manipulated by circumstance.
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cmon you seriously believe that a spit 16 is not easy mode :headscratch:
Grizz and I have been discussing what is EZ and what is not. My feeling is that we all have our EZ planes. You do as well, the Ki-84. It's EZ for you. Grizz however on the other side of the argument has the stance that some planes are EZ and can help a good pilot kill multiple aircraft. We started with original 6 enemy cons and have bargained down to 4. It's getting less EZ by the minute. So the question is: is it the pilot or the plane? My feeling is that it is the pilot, not the plane that makes any given plane EZ. I have to say that it is not my want to gang-bang Grizz, rather to show that the 16 does not give you anymore edge than any other bird when engaged by multiple coordinated opponents. If Grizz lives throught it, then he deserves the Kudos. If he does not then I feel my point is proven. Nothing personal, just an experiment to back up claims made.
:salute
Way
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Let me be specific, random to you Sir. You won't know what is coming out until you see it. My thought is like you, we Pigs have our EZ planes that we like to fly so you may see a Spit 9, Hellcat, K-4 and a Spit 8 in the first round. Who knows. If that is acceptable to you, then we can get our testing done. Your help is appreciated in running this experiment. Perhaps we are on to something here and we can establish a criteria for what is truly EZ. :D
Random to me? Um.... did anyone else interpret the challenge that way? I'd much rather prefer 4 easy mode K4s (as 68zoom put it) against my non ez mode Spit16 than the 4 of you picking your best ez mode rides to outturn me with.
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Quick glance at tour 138:
Top 10% players in K4 had 70% of the kills in that plane.
Top 10% players in 16 had 66% of kills in that plane.
Not that much of a difference to me, but I'm too tired to think about it.
Thats because in both cases, the kills are dominated by a very slim minority. The vast majority in both cases had between 0-3 kills the whole tour. Look at the top 10%, its flat almost except for the top 2%
here look at the distro of the top 10% k4
(http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/4444/k42.png)
here look at the distro of the top 10% spit 16
(http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/3971/spit162.png)
now hold on, I'll make a chart with the top 4 sticks removed... hold on.. :)
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Random to me? Um.... did anyone else interpret the challenge that way? I'd much rather prefer 4 easy mode K4s (as 68zoom put it) against my non ez mode Spit16 than the 4 of you picking your best ez mode rides to outturn me with.
We all have our best EZ mode rides don't we? As far as our plane choices, the Spit 16 EZ has got you covered right? It's EZ! You said so yourself, although originally against a larger number of opponents. How hard can it be?:D
Here it is final form:
Grizz in Spit 16
4 Pigs in their planes of choice(No perks)
Best of 5 rounds proves point.
Merge alt & location negotiable
Is this acceptable?
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I don't understand why this is hard to figure out. Perhaps you are like lawyers and the point is to make an argument even if you know your client is guilty.
Speed, firepower, climb, turn, roll, visibility, acceleration, stall behavior, and dive performance are the big factors in what makes a plane easy to get kills in. Other factors like toughness, fuel capacity, etc matter as well but to a lesser degree.
The better the plane is at these attributes the bigger the 'window of opportunity' is to get a kill. A pilot creates his window, while his opponent tries to shrink it. In creating opportunity to get a kill, a pilot must optimize his movements vs his opponent's movements. As the capability of the opponents aircraft inceases in any given attribute, that optimization gets harder and harder. As it also gets harder with the reduction in the attributes of his aircraft.
The ability to optimize is the definition of pilot skill.
The planes with big attribute envelopes, like hispano armed Spits, N1k2s, Ki-84s require less optimization to get or keep a bandit in the 'Kill window'. Hence Easy Mode
Saying the pilot makes his own easy mode, and the plane is not a factor is kind of silly Way'. :salute
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Luche is right, there isn't much of a difference, sans the top 4%... the curves are very similar. trying to analyze it quantitatively isn't working too well :(
k4
(http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/3931/k43.png)
spit16
(http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/4358/spit164.png)
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Speed, firepower, climb, turn, roll, visibility, acceleration, stall behavior, and dive performance are the big factors in what makes a plane easy to get kills in. Other factors like toughness, fuel capacity, etc matter as well but to a lesser degree.
Although I agree with your premise, the spit16 being easier. this has limitations too (much like my poor attempt to quantitatively analyze it).
for example
FW190 D9 vs Spit 16
1) speed = 190 D9
2) firepower = tie between spit and 190 edging to the spit due to the flat trajectory of the hispanos
3) climb = very close, prob a tie
4) roll = 190 but again close
5) stall = spit 16
6) dive performance = 190
7) turn diameter = spit 16
looking at this one would say the 190 d9 and the spit 16 are on par, but I bet co-e, and the same skill pilot, a spit 16 will chew up a 190 d9 with ease.
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Although I agree with your premise, the spit16 being easier. this has limitations too (much like my poor attempt to quantitatively analyze it).
for example
FW190 D9 vs Spit 16
1) speed = 190 D9
2) firepower = tie between spit and 190 edging to the spit due to the flat trajectory of the hispanos
3) climb = very close, prob a tie
4) roll = 190 but again close
5) stall = spit 16
6) dive performance = 190
7) turn diameter = spit 16
looking at this one would say the 190 d9 and the spit 16 are on par, but I bet co-e, and the same skill pilot, a spit 16 will chew up a 190 d9 with ease.
Only if you count wins and don't quantify how much you won by. For stall and turn performance the Spit wins by a mile. With the others being close, that means the Spit wins by a mile. ;)
edit: When I talk about performance envelope, that also impacts situational capability. Yes, any pilot in any plane can get lots of kills and have a High K/D, but only if he optimizes his situation. Choosing carefully what, when, and how he engages. A plane with a big flight envelope can be less selective and still get kills. hence easy mode.
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Ardy,
You would never fight a 16 in an angles fight...you'd E fight him to death. Your example assumes the D9 is going to fight the 16 and play somewhat to the 16s strengths....you would never do that.
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We all have our best EZ mode rides don't we? As far as our plane choices, the Spit 16 EZ has got you covered right? It's EZ! You said so yourself, although originally against a larger number of opponents. How hard can it be?:D
Here it is final form:
Grizz in Spit 16
4 Pigs in their planes of choice(No perks)
Best of 5 rounds proves point.
Merge alt & location negotiable
Is this acceptable?
It is easy, but that doesn't mean I can take on an entire squadron in one. :rolleyes:
You are being ridiculous. I thought the renegotiated challenge was 4 random planes by a random number generator, not you guys "randomly" selecting your favorite ez mode aeroplane from the hangar. My initial challenge was the four of you in 109K4's vs Me in a Spit16. If you cannot accept that generous challenge then you have proven my point you just don't realize it. 4 of You, 1 of me.
If you're a little nervous at the prospect of losing, you should be because it is a reasonable possibility TBH. :devil
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Although I agree with your premise, the spit16 being easier. this has limitations too (much like my poor attempt to quantitatively analyze it).
for example
FW190 D9 vs Spit 16
1) speed = 190 D9
2) firepower = tie between spit and 190 edging to the spit due to the flat trajectory of the hispanos
3) climb = very close, prob a tie
4) roll = 190 but again close
5) stall = spit 16
6) dive performance = 190
7) turn diameter = spit 16
looking at this one would say the 190 d9 and the spit 16 are on par, but I bet co-e, and the same skill pilot, a spit 16 will chew up a 190 d9 with ease.
Few observations
2) Hispanos are considerably more lethal. D9 has more ammo though. Still, adv Spit
3) Spit XVI climbs much better
4) I'd give advantage in roll to Spit XVI (the band where d9 has adv is very narrow)
The only real adv D9 has is its speed and that's the only reason why majority of D9 pilots are flying it.
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Grizz and I have been discussing what is EZ and what is not. My feeling is that we all have our EZ planes. You do as well, the Ki-84. It's EZ for you. Grizz however on the other side of the argument has the stance that some planes are EZ and can help a good pilot kill multiple aircraft. We started with original 6 enemy cons and have bargained down to 4. It's getting less EZ by the minute. So the question is: is it the pilot or the plane? My feeling is that it is the pilot, not the plane that makes any given plane EZ. I have to say that it is not my want to gang-bang Grizz, rather to show that the 16 does not give you anymore edge than any other bird when engaged by multiple coordinated opponents. If Grizz lives throught it, then he deserves the Kudos. If he does not then I feel my point is proven. Nothing personal, just an experiment to back up claims made.
:salute
Way
I think its 50/50 plane/pilot...as you go up the ladder in skill level...the plane takes on much more of a deciding factor....two equal pilots, equal situation, one in a crappy plane one in a ez mode plane, the EZ mode plane will win every time.
I do understand what you are saying, some planes are EZ mode for particular sticks, that's because they most likely put the time into them though.
I used to think it was all pilot but it most certainly is not.
Few observations
2) Hispanos are considerably more lethal. D9 has more ammo though. Still, adv Spit
3) Spit XVI climbs much better
4) I'd give advantage in roll to Spit XVI (the band where d9 has adv is very narrow)
The only real adv D9 has is its speed and that's the only reason why majority of D9 pilots are flying it.
absolutely
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Bighorn,
Exactly. The D9 can easily set the tempo of the fight with her speed advantage. It's like the knuckleheads that try to turn fight Brews and Zekes...you are playing to that planes strengths.....why?
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Ardy,
You would never fight a 16 in an angles fight...you'd E fight him to death. Your example assumes the D9 is going to fight the 16 and play somewhat to the 16s strengths....you would never do that.
Its very hard to 'out e' a spit 16 if they start out co-e.
Bighorn,
Exactly. The D9 can easily set the tempo of the fight with her speed advantage. It's like the knuckleheads that try to turn fight Brews and Zekes...you are playing to that planes strengths.....why?
Again, if they start out at the same speed and same alt, the spit 16 will get the kill.
The D9 strengths only shine when it enters the fight faster or above the spit 16 (which is the case in the ma) but then again they did not enter fight co-e.
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I don't understand why this is hard to figure out. Perhaps you are like lawyers and the point is to make an argument even if you know your client is guilty.
Speed, firepower, climb, turn, roll, visibility, acceleration, stall behavior, and dive performance are the big factors in what makes a plane easy to get kills in. Other factors like toughness, fuel capacity, etc matter as well but to a lesser degree.
The better the plane is at these attributes the bigger the 'window of opportunity' is to get a kill. A pilot creates his window, while his opponent tries to shrink it. In creating opportunity to get a kill, a pilot must optimize his movements vs his opponent's movements. As the capability of the opponents aircraft inceases in any given attribute, that optimization gets harder and harder. As it also gets harder with the reduction in the attributes of his aircraft.
The ability to optimize is the definition of pilot skill.
The planes with big attribute envelopes, like hispano armed Spits, N1k2s, Ki-84s require less optimization to get or keep a bandit in the 'Kill window'. Hence Easy Mode
Saying the pilot makes his own easy mode, and the plane is not a factor is kind of silly Way'. :salute
Although I don't think the issue is silly, I do agree that there are reasons why some aircraft have the ENY's that they do. The Spit 16 has an appropriate ENY based on it's performance capabilities. However, as you said the pilot is the optimizer that makes a given plane a powerhouse. Bunnies in a 109, Grizz or Kappa in 262's, Dodger in a Hellcat, Bruv in a Spit of any type, Gixer in the Yak, 999000 in B-17's, I could go on. No one plane guarantees an EZ road to kills without the skill and experience of a good pilot behind it. Hence the attempt to recreate a legendary sortie by a past player in a Spit 16 against 6 enemy cons.
:salute
Way
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Although I don't think the issue is silly, I do agree that there are reasons why some aircraft have the ENY's that they do. The Spit 16 has an appropriate ENY based on it's performance capabilities. However, as you said the pilot is the optimizer that makes a given plane a powerhouse. Bunnies in a 109, Grizz or Kappa in 262's, Dodger in a Hellcat, Bruv in a Spit of any type, Gixer in the Yak, 999000 in B-17's, I could go on. No one plane guarantees an EZ road to kills without the skill and experience of a good pilot behind it. Hence the attempt to recreate a legendary sortie by a past player in a Spit 16 against 6 enemy cons.
:salute
Way
imposable to recreate that fight....I have won crazy odds, but it happens only once in a while when I am shooting good or fighting a bunch of noobs, my best if I remember now is 7 out of about 15 trying to kill me.......can I do that every time...obviously not......yup I definitely feel now a days its 50/50 pilot/plane until you get up in the higher end skill level, then plane...or initial situation plays more of a part in it....
hell there are so many variables that happen in a dogfight, there is no "TWO" aspects that dictate the winner.....I would go so far as to say initial situation, is the most determining factor in a 1vs1 in the MA.
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Its very hard to 'out e' a spit 16 if they start out co-e.
Again, if they start out at the same speed and same alt, the spit 16 will get the kill.
The D9 strengths only shine when it enters the fight faster or above the spit 16 (which is the case in the ma) but then again they did not enter fight co-e.
The D9 speed advatange allows the remerge/extend feature and yes, the D9 will flat outrun the sissyteen giving the D9 driver the sole ability to dictate the fight terms. If the D9 driver chooses to get inside the Sissyteens fight envelope, yes, woe be unto the D9 driver. Now, all of this hypothetical fun crap assumes no one else enters the fight and monkeywrenches the D9's plan.
D9 wins through patience and speed
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The D9 speed advatange allows the remerge/extend feature and yes, the D9 will flat outrun the sissyteen giving the D9 driver the sole
How? any spit16 decent pilot will get the shot on the d9 as he extends, the Hispanos easily make shots 600 out.
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The D9 speed advatange allows the remerge/extend feature and yes, the D9 will flat outrun the sissyteen giving the D9 driver the sole ability to dictate the fight terms. If the D9 driver chooses to get inside the Sissyteens fight envelope, yes, woe be unto the D9 driver. Now, all of this hypothetical fun crap assumes no one else enters the fight and monkeywrenches the D9's plan.
D9 wins through patience and speed
lol ya no way a 190 gonna kill an equal stick in a 16..excepting the 16 being AFK :D
all the 190 can do is run to friends :aok
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Although I don't think the issue is silly, I do agree that there are reasons why some aircraft have the ENY's that they do. The Spit 16 has an appropriate ENY based on it's performance capabilities. However, as you said the pilot is the optimizer that makes a given plane a powerhouse. Bunnies in a 109, Grizz or Kappa in 262's, Dodger in a Hellcat, Bruv in a Spit of any type, Gixer in the Yak, 999000 in B-17's, I could go on. No one plane guarantees an EZ road to kills without the skill and experience of a good pilot behind it. Hence the attempt to recreate a legendary sortie by a past player in a Spit 16 against 6 enemy cons.
:salute
Way
Yes but I think that is Grizz's point. To pull it all together, [pilot]*[plane capability]= lethality.
All he is saying in his bravado Muppet way, is if you've maxed out the [plane capability] factor by flying a Spitsteen you're taking the easiest route to High lethality.
I think you've changed the argument slightly to how much better is the spit, meaning can a chump pilot have INK-like lethality because he is in a Spit. In doing so you may have tricked him into biting off more than her can chew but can this experiment, the way it's set up, define easy? I smell set up. :) :salute
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D9 wins through patience and speed
I'd say through hit & run. That's the usual D9 tactic in MA. But we are talking about plane vs plane "fighting" here...
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Yes but I think that is Grizz's point. To pull it all together, [pilot]*[plane capability]= lethality.
All he is saying in his bravado Muppet way, is if you've maxed out the [plane capability] factor by flying a Spitsteen you're taking the easiest route to High lethality.
I think you've changed the argument slightly to how much better is the spit, meaning can a chump pilot have INK-like lethality because he is in a Spit. In doing so you may have tricked him into biting off more than her can chew but can this experiment, the way it's set up, define easy? I smell set up. :) :salute
If anything I am honest. The point was to arrive at where you are at. I do not expect any pilot in the game to survive 6 experienced and communicating squaddies regardless of squad affilitation (well most squads :D). The Spit 16 is what it is, a late war low ENY monster that you tangle with knowing what it is capable of in a average pilot's hands let alone an experienced and skilled pilot that can optimize it's abilities and kill with it. Will it magically allow you to take on multiple cons? No. I guess I run contrary to the "you fly this, so you are...insert derogatory remark" crowd. I'll probabably be this way until I retire from this game that we all love.
:salute
Way
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P47N is easymode, nuff said!
JUGgler
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P47N is easymode, nuff said!
JUGgler
ZOMG I have a believer here! Praise Gawd! :aok
:lol
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P47N is easymode, nuff said!
JUGgler
:rofl :rofl in the same way the p40-b is easy mode.
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If anything I am honest. The point was to arrive at where you are at. I do not expect any pilot in the game to survive 6 experienced and communicating squaddies regardless of squad affilitation (well most squads :D). The Spit 16 is what it is, a late war low ENY monster that you tangle with knowing what it is capable of in a average pilot's hands let alone an experienced and skilled pilot that can optimize it's abilities and kill with it. Will it magically allow you to take on multiple cons? No. I guess I run contrary to the "you fly this, so you are...insert derogatory remark" crowd. I'll probabably be this way until I retire from this game that we all love.
:salute
Way
So we are in agreement that the Spit16 is an EZ ride?
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So we are in agreement that the Spit16 is an EZ ride?
:rofl :rofl
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P47N is easymode, nuff said!
JUGgler
compared to the D11 and 25 i would say so.... oh chickensticks there all easymode. :joystick:
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So we are in agreement that the Spit16 is an EZ ride?
No, we are in agreement that it is a low ENY plane with good all round performance and armament. Only fully utilized by a pilot with skill and experience can reach it's peak performance envelope and become someone's EZ ride. You still need to address the claims that it will allow a pilot to do more than what they are normally capable of.
EZ is a term that allows some pilots to feel better about their poor taste in planes. :P
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lol ya no way a 190 gonna kill an equal stick in a 16..excepting the 16 being AFK :D
all the 190 can do is run to friends :aok
Zeagle and I were winging in 190A8's yesterday. We were engaged by a Spit 16, a Ki-84, a P-38, a P-51, and an F4U. With the help of some pony driver whos name I forget, we outfought them for quite a while. I would have had 9 kills instead of the 5 I landed if I'd had any taters left.
Please don't make disparaging comments about the 190 :aok.
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I'll put it this way....
bunnies in a Spit16 easily kills bunnies in a k4.
bunnies in a ki84 easily kills bunnies in a k4
so you're saying.... bunnies sucks in a k4? :banana:
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Zeagle and I were winging in 190A8's yesterday. We were engaged by a Spit 16, a Ki-84, a P-38, a P-51, and an F4U. With the help of some pony driver whos name I forget, we outfought them for quite a while. I would have had 9 kills instead of the 5 I landed if I'd had any taters left.
Please don't make disparaging comments about the 190 :aok.
These kinds of comments are meaningless BS and here is why..
1) Were all the pilots equal in skill?
2) Did you start off at equal alt and equal speed?
3) Did neither party have an element of surprise?
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so you're saying.... bunnies sucks in a k4? :banana:
duh captain obvious!
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These kinds of comments are meaningless BS and here is why..
1) Were all the pilots equal in skill?
2) Did you start off at equal alt and equal speed?
3) Did neither party have an element of surprise?
1) No way to tell, fight wasn't protracted. We were attempting to egress due to low fuel and increasing numbers of enemies
2) they started out with more E than we did actually. I'd just knocked the Ki-84 off Zeagle's tail which left us both about 250mph and on the deck.
3) nope, neither side was supprised
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Bf109K-4s concern me more than Spitfire Mk XVI's. They are both deadly and aircraft I struggle against, but I definitely respect the Bf109K-4 more.
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True, but I'm just calling it like I see it. If a player doesn't like the fact that he flies an EZ plane, then he can do something about it. If he wants to pretend it is not EZ because other EZ moders tell him it is not EZ, that's fine also, but I am laughing. :lol
Honestly, in most instances I drool when I see the so called EZ planes in the air, because I know one or two turns and I can be inside the guy with most planes with a couple simple tricks that a noob will fall for every time. That goes back to my first point that while there are characteristics of planes that allow noobs to have a more fighting chance in them, to use them to any effect still requires skill which most lack. Only when a pilot with a decent skill set gets into one of those planes and flys to it's strengths do you start hearing chants of EZ Mode...
However like I said with the Zeke, the thing is anything but EZ to survive in. Yes you may get a kill or two, and may have a couple of turns to blow someone elses pass, but 1 ping you're still a flaming pilot of debris streaking across the air at 280mph... I think it says more for the SA and translating that into ACM of a successful EZ mode pilot, than doing the same with a Jug or 190 that'll soak damage for hours and give them a ride capable of diving out of trouble and making it home.
I'd say at most, plane accounts for 25% of the equation. Pilot is 50% and situation/position would be the other 25%.
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I fly the humble, average 9.
Changeup
Too bad you missed the days when the 9 had the .50's option...
And the 109f4 had gondies...
:cry
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Zeagle and I were winging in 190A8's yesterday. We were engaged by a Spit 16, a Ki-84, a P-38, a P-51, and an F4U. With the help of some pony driver whos name I forget, we outfought them for quite a while. I would have had 9 kills instead of the 5 I landed if I'd had any taters left.
Please don't make disparaging comments about the 190 :aok.
ehh....190's easy kill, un less they have huge E advantage and just BnZ which is all it can do...sorry man just state it like I see it....
anytime you wanna try out that 190 against my KI let me know will be fun :t
no disrespect meant :salute
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Too bad you missed the days when the 9 had the .50's option...
And the 109f4 had gondies...
:cry
Ooooooo....that sounds delicious!
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Ooooooo....that sounds delicious!
It was also wrong, in the Spit's case, and rare, in the Bf109's case.
Only Spitfire LF.Mk IXe with Merlin 66 and Spitfire HF.Mk IXe with Merlin 70 had the .50 cals among Spitfire Mk IXs. The Merlin 61 Spitfire F.Mk IX certainly didn't have them.
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And by the way, just pointing out I'm the only one so far who's had an actual idea or solution to the issue, and hasn't just been yelling about how bad it is... Definately helps if you can at least be constructive towards a point and not waste 12 pages arguing whether it's a moded Spit IX or a Spit XVI or whether grizz would fly the spixteen if it had taters....
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anytime you wanna try out that 190 against my KI let me know will be fun :t
no disrespect meant :salute
how you feel about lala's? :noid :banana: :neener: :bolt:
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It was also wrong, in the Spit's case, and rare, in the Bf109's case.
Only Spitfire LF.Mk IXe with Merlin 66 and Spitfire HF.Mk IXe with Merlin 70 had the .50 cals among Spitfire Mk IXs. The Merlin 61 Spitfire F.Mk IX certainly didn't have them.
and stuffz like this is why we get the VIII, XVI and K4, G14... :noid :aok
The g2 w/gondies is adequate :joystick: ... never cared for the g6, no matter the loadout.
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and stuffz like this is why we get the VIII, XVI and K4, G14... :noid :aok
The g2 w/gondies is adequate :joystick: ... never cared for the g6, no matter the loadout.
I've read there were K4 variants w/ 2 wing mounted 30mm's in addition to the centerline that were also flown in the war...
On a side note... I was reading that in order to rush the Ta152 into combat, many D11's were upgraded w/ the engine package and a larger tail surface, but lacked the destinctive wings and gun package of the 152... Does anyone know if we use the small tail or big tail D11 in here?
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And by the way, just pointing out I'm the only one so far who's had an actual idea or solution to the issue, and hasn't just been yelling about how bad it is... Definately helps if you can at least be constructive towards a point and not waste 12 pages arguing whether it's a moded Spit IX or a Spit XVI or whether grizz would fly the spixteen if it had taters....
I responded to your idea by pointing out that you were gravely misinformed about the operation requirements of the aircraft you were speaking of. That you are ignoring the feedback doesn't speak well for your position.
I've read there were K4 variants w/ 2 wing mounted 30mm's in addition to the centerline that were also flown in the war...
Do you have a primary source or an article/book referencing a primary source on that? I've never heard of 30mm gondolas on Bf109s.
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So we are in agreement that the Spit16 is an EZ ride?
For someone who has a clue what they are doing it can be.
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how you feel about lala's? :noid :banana: :neener: :bolt:
love it when they actually fight :D
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I responded to your idea by pointing out that you were gravely misinformed about the operation requirements of the aircraft you were speaking of. That you are ignoring the feedback doesn't speak well for your position.Do you have a primary source or an article/book referencing a primary source on that? I've never heard of 30mm gondolas on Bf109s.
Well... to speak to the 1st... I didn't ignore it at all. I had to put up with 12 pages of people arguing whether it was a spitfire IX or XVI... Besides, by the time the theatre of operation you speak of had spixteens on site, the US was taking up most of the fight on the islands, and there was very little landbased operations going on in the pacific... Neither the british, the aussies nor any other allied power offered anything close to a full strength force in the pacific to constitute it as being a main theatre for those powers.
To the second point... no, it's been a while since I read up on the K4 variant, and I cannot place the actual first time I've heard of this. Wiki states that there were 20mm gun pods, however Wiki is neither accurate nor reliable... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_109_variants) .I'll try and get back up to Montana some time and visit the Library where I checked out the majority of my books on WWII and put together a bibliography for you... Mind you, I started reading about WWII in second grade w/ The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, so I've got a somewhat extensive list of books to re-read, but I'll do so just for you...
Troll
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Well... to speak to the 1st... I didn't ignore it at all. I had to put up with 12 pages of people arguing whether it was a spitfire IX or XVI... Besides, by the time the theatre of operation you speak of had spixteens on site, the US was taking up most of the fight on the islands, and there was very little landbased operations going on in the pacific... Neither the british, the aussies nor any other allied power offered anything close to a full strength force in the pacific to constitute it as being a main theatre for those powers.
???
You seem confused. Spitfire Mk XVIs only operated in Europe. It was the Mk XIVs that were sent to Burma. Maybe you are unaware of the CBI theater, but it was still active when the Japanese surrendered in Sept. of 1945, so no, the fact that the US was busy island hopping does not change the fact that Spitfire Mk XIVs, which you seem to think were so advanced they couldn't operate outside of England, were flying from rough fields in Burma.
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My Very Opinionated Version of "EASY MODE" :
1. Low stall speed at all angles.
2. Turns on a dime, even at low air speed.
3. Climb rate above average or better
4. Responds to extreme pilot inputs at any attitude.
5. Easy stall recovery.
6. Hi Caliper Weapons
HL
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Karnak, hes talking about the 109K-14 with wingmounted 30mm's. Luftwaffe never used gondola mounted 30mm's as far as I know.
Would love to fight you INK, but that doesn't say anything about the 190 in and of itself. Really wish they would fix the 190A5's ata limit, and get rid of the extra 500kg the A8 is carrying.
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My Very Opinionated Version of "EASY MODE" :
1. Low stall speed at all angles.
2. Turns on a dime, even at low air speed.
3. Climb rate above average or better
4. Responds to extreme pilot inputs at any attitude.
5. Easy stall recovery.
6. Hi Caliper Weapons
You just described the spitfire.
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+1.
Also described the Niki, and Hurricane IIC and D near enough.
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lol sounded more like the Brewster to me, those are one annoying plane to fight.
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Karnak, hes talking about the 109K-14 with wingmounted 30mm's. Luftwaffe never used gondola mounted 30mm's as far as I know.
You mean wing mounted 20mm, right? I am unaware of the 30mm ever being mounted on the wings of any Bf109.
Also, he seemed pretty sure of himself in listing it as the Bf109K-4.
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I mean 30mm; it was a proposed heavy fighter. Hes either refering the K-6 or the K-14, but hes certinaly not refering the K-4.
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You mean wing mounted 20mm, right? I am unaware of the 30mm ever being mounted on the wings of any Bf109.
Also, he seemed pretty sure of himself in listing it as the Bf109K-4.
As I stated originaly, a K-4 Variant... should have said a K variant, my apologies.
As for your whole burma chub... the spitfire mark ivx and xvi were two planes out of a group I mentioned. They may have operated out of Burma, but when? Was it when the British still had their manpower against the Nazis, or was it in a show of "hey, we had your back" at the end of the war when there was little to nothing to do in that theatre of operation? Sorry to say, the Brits and French folded in the pacific, and even the Russians didn't do squat until we'd already krippled the prey.
USA!
USA!
USA!
[EDIT: In regards to your other comment to which I'd already addressed]
Well... to speak to the 1st... I didn't ignore it at all. I had to put up with 12 pages of people arguing whether it was a spitfire IX or XVI... Besides, by the time the theatre of operation you speak of had spixteens on site, the US was taking up most of the fight on the islands, and there was very little landbased operations going on in the pacific... Neither the british, the aussies nor any other allied power offered anything close to a full strength force in the pacific to constitute it as being a main theatre for those powers.
To the second point... no, it's been a while since I read up on the K4 variant, and I cannot place the actual first time I've heard of this. Wiki states that there were 20mm gun pods, however Wiki is neither accurate nor reliable... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_109_variants) .I'll try and get back up to Montana some time and visit the Library where I checked out the majority of my books on WWII and put together a bibliography for you... Mind you, I started reading about WWII in second grade w/ The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, so I've got a somewhat extensive list of books to re-read, but I'll do so just for you...
Troll
[Edit #2]
Troll
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As I stated originaly, a K-4 Variant... should have said a K variant, my apologies.
As for your whole burma chub... the spitfire mark ivx and xvi were two planes out of a group I mentioned. They may have operated out of Burma, but when? Was it when the British still had their manpower against the Nazis, or was it in a show of "hey, we had your back" at the end of the war when there was little to nothing to do in that theatre of operation? Sorry to say, the Brits and French folded in the pacific, and even the Russians didn't do squat until we'd already krippled the prey.
USA!
USA!
USA!
[EDIT: In regards to your other comment to which I'd already addressed]
[Edit #2]
Troll
LOL you are quite wrong about the China Burma India airwar. I wouldn't even know where to start you are so off. I guess the best I can suggest is spend some money on Christopher Shore's trilogy on the airwar there. Spit XVIs never went to the Pacific. The VIII was meant for overseas use and was the one that went to the PTO and CBI along with MTO. The XVI operated out of England and on the continent. The XIV got to the CBI right at the end.
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As I stated originaly, a K-4 Variant... should have said a K variant, my apologies.
As for your whole burma chub... the spitfire mark ivx and xvi were two planes out of a group I mentioned. They may have operated out of Burma, but when? Was it when the British still had their manpower against the Nazis, or was it in a show of "hey, we had your back" at the end of the war when there was little to nothing to do in that theatre of operation? Sorry to say, the Brits and French folded in the pacific, and even the Russians didn't do squat until we'd already krippled the prey.
USA!
USA!
USA!
Seeing as you seem to be a know nothing and proud of it, how about you go read up on the CBI theater. The CBI theater was there for the whole war as the Japanese tried to advance into India. It was not as significant as other fronts, but some of the most brutal fighting of the war in the most unpleasant environments happened there. Mostly Commonwealth and British forces, but some American units too.
The Tempest, Spitfire Mk XIV and Spitfire Mk XVI all operated from forward bases in Europe as the Allies advanced. The B-29 operated from rudimentary airfields in India and China before it flew from Pacific islands. The Me163 and Ta152 are not usable case studies as Germany didn't have any distant, rudimentary fields left when they came into service. There, I think that covers the aircraft you mentioned.
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Germany went and ticked Russia off. If the Non-agression treaty had held, I'm sure Stalin would have turned his attention to China as soon as Finnland was down for the count.
And Russia had literally just a few months to decide how it wanted to carve up occupied Germany and the rest of Eastern Europe. Settle on which troops to take out of the occupation force to send against Japan, actually MOVE them, transport them to the Russian Far East, draw up a plan, and then build up the needed logistical support before the USA hit them with the A-bomb.
You seem to have NO idea, not even a clue, how hard it is to move armies around when its more than just marks on a map.
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As I stated originaly, a K-4 Variant... should have said a K variant, my apologies.
As for your whole burma chub... the spitfire mark ivx and xvi were two planes out of a group I mentioned. They may have operated out of Burma, but when? Was it when the British still had their manpower against the Nazis, or was it in a show of "hey, we had your back" at the end of the war when there was little to nothing to do in that theatre of operation? Sorry to say, the Brits and French folded in the pacific, and even the Russians didn't do squat until we'd already krippled the prey.
For someone that claims to have a rich knowledge of World War II, you're not displaying it.
ack-ack
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Can u guys take this to the aircraft and vehicles section? This is the gd where trolling, challenging, and bickering should take place, not relevant historical discussion. Thx.
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Can u guys take this to the aircraft and vehicles section? This is the gd where trolling, challenging, and bickering should take place, not relevant historical discussion. Thx.
Ok now this is funny.^^^
Hey griz if the k4 is not EZ what does that make the 39Q?
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Hey griz if the k4 is not EZ what does that make the 39Q?
Bronk if the vast majority of the player base was flying the 39Q and P40E's, I'd be in the EZ mode plane. But they're not, they're in Spits and P51ds.
I also never said the K4 was the toughest bird in the game but it was far from easy. Did you see how the Pigs were gun shy about fighting me 4v1 in K4s vs my Spit16? It must not be that easy if they need to renegotiate the terms of a 4v1 gang bang.
You need a competitive aircraft in the MA if you want to have any fun.
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Bronk if the vast majority of the player base was flying the 39Q and P40E's, I'd be in the EZ mode plane. But they're not, they're in Spits and P51ds.
I also never said the K4 was the toughest bird in the game but it was far from easy. Did you see how the Pigs were gun shy about fighting me 4v1 in K4s vs my Spit16? It must not be that easy if they need to renegotiate the terms of a 4v1 gang bang.
You need a competitive aircraft in the MA if you want to have any fun.
I think if nathbdp was around he'd take you up on it 1vs1... and probably win best out of 5. You are still adding in pilot quality to the equation.
The above was not meant as an insult... just my opinion.
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I think if nathbdp was around he'd take you up on it 1vs1... and probably win best out of 5. You are still adding in pilot quality to the equation.
The above was not meant as an insult... just my opinion.
Not saying he wouldn't, but what do you base this off of? We (me and you) have never fought one another.
One respected vet's opinion FWIW:
Well, when I started playing AH, Levi was in his prime, but so were the old Muppets. Wldthing, Kappa, Fester, Nomak, etc, could go toe to toe with him. In fact, among the top guys there was not much difference.
What was different back then is that community was different, smaller and skill was more appreciated, hence people were talking more about top sticks (and top squads) than they do today. And so, legends were born...
Then, some tops sticks were promoting their buddies, like Levi did with NathBDP and so folks started believing they were tops too, even though, noobs like me would spank them. Not that Nath wasn't good stick, he was, but nowhere close to the creme.
Today, there are far more good sticks, helluva lot more parity and skill than ever before. The past gods would still be top sticks today, but they wouldn't dominate like they used to.
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Bronk if the vast majority of the player base was flying the 39Q and P40E's, I'd be in the EZ mode plane. But they're not, they're in Spits and P51ds.
I also never said the K4 was the toughest bird in the game but it was far from easy. Did you see how the Pigs were gun shy about fighting me 4v1 in K4s vs my Spit16? It must not be that easy if they need to renegotiate the terms of a 4v1 gang bang.
You need a competitive aircraft in the MA if you want to have any fun.
Let's read back, I requested you duplicate the original feat, you were the one that asked for a reduction in enemy cons. Now you are talking silly again Grizz. Let's start at the begining where you first started trumpeting a former squaddies sortie that proves the EZ-ness of the Spit 16. I quote you as saying that he killed six cons in that sortie because of the uberness of this plane. So I threw it out there to see just how EZ it is and qualify your statement. I started with the recreation of the fabled 6 vs 1 you cited as proof of the EZ-ness, then you back-pedaled from calling it ludicrous. You immediately counter-offered with a 4 vs 1 with your choice of opponents planes. Seems it is not as easy as you say. The offer still stands to back up your proof of the Spit 16 EZ-ness. You the one that started talking out your bum here brother. Now don't start slinging unfounded "shy" comments because we both know that will head this to a thread lock. I'd rather not have an insult slinging contest as it is not my bag. This is not a "get Grizz in a situation where multiple Pigs can kill him" idea. There is no joy in that. I want to see this magic edge it gives a pilot. If it does then you should roundly defeat 4 Pigs in their favorite birds, if not then you writing checks you can't cash.
Grizz-Spit 16
4 Pigs in their choice of planes (no perks and no Spit 16's)
Best of Five
Merge alt negotiable
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Let's read back, I requested you duplicate the original feat, you were the one that asked for a reduction in enemy cons. Now you are talking silly again Grizz. Let's start at the begining where you first started trumpeting a former squaddies sortie that proves the EZ-ness of the Spit 16. I quote you as saying that he killed six cons in that sortie because of the uberness of this plane. So I threw it out there to see just how EZ it is and qualify your statement. I started with the recreation of the fabled 6 vs 1 you cited as proof of the EZ-ness, then you back-pedaled from calling it ludicrous. You immediately counter-offered with a 4 vs 1 with your choice of opponents planes. Seems it is not as easy as you say. The offer still stands to back up your proof of the Spit 16 EZ-ness. You the one that started talking out your bum here brother. Now don't start slinging unfounded "shy" comments because we both know that will head this to a thread lock. I'd rather not have an insult slinging contest as it is not my bag. This is not a "get Grizz in a situation where multiple Pigs can kill him" idea. There is no joy in that. I want to see this magic edge it gives a pilot. If it does then you should roundly defeat 4 Pigs in their favorite birds, if not then you writing checks you can't cash.
Grizz-Spit 16
4 Pigs in their choice of planes (no perks and no Spit 16's)
Best of Five
Merge alt negotiable
So let me get this straight, if I can defeat 4 pigs in their birds of choice in a Spit16, it proves that the Spit16 is leet? And if I fail it proves the Spit16 is not leet? Is that the scientific experiment?
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So let me get this straight, if I can defeat 4 pigs in their birds of choice in a Spit16, it proves that the Spit16 is leet? And if I fail it proves the Spit16 is not leet? Is that the scientific experiment?
Thank you first for not turning this into contest of electronic ballz. It is not. Pilot skill is not in question here. The plane's supposed leet-ness is. You kill them all them the time, as do I. We both know that the pilot's skill and depth of experience is what turns any plane into a killer. No need for it to be Pigs vs. Grizz. Hell we can set it up with anyone flying either side. I just want to see this EZ, EZ mode, Edge or leet-ness that this plane has. If you have a better experimental idea I am interested to hear it. There has got to be something that would show this to be true or not true. Maybe find a pilot that does not normally fly it and have them fly it for a period of time and check their K/D after a certain test period. There should be a corresponding change in stats right? Right now what we have in question is whether low ENY birds are easier to get kills in than high ENY birds. It is fact that the P51-D has a better K/D based on current stats, so the P51D must be even easier to get kills in than the Spit 16. By the way I can't remember is the Pony D a 5 ENY ride or is it higher? :headscratch:
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I think if nathbdp was around he'd take you up on it 1vs1... and probably win best out of 5. You are still adding in pilot quality to the equation.
The above was not meant as an insult... just my opinion.
All these supposed "great ones" that has come back and fought Grizz in the DA have had a hard time squeaking out one victory of the 20 fights they fought. The Creton beatdown was interesting to witness and he dissappeared not long after that as just one example that comes to mind quickly...
but yeah, Nath may be different...
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Wow, so I leave the country and when I return I find the pigs renegotiating the terms of a 4v1 with a muppet cuz the first pass was too hard for them. Cool.
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One respected vet's opinion FWIW:
No offense, but I'll take "anonymous" opinions of Nath's abilities with a grain of salt. Having flown wing with him for years, he struck me as one of the most aggressive and instinctive pilots I had ever played with or against. I can say, in my opinion and without any hyperbole, that he was one of the best Aces High players of all time. I certainly wasn't "promoting" him, which implies some sort of intention to elevate him to undeserved heights. He and I both started playing Aces High around the same time and gravitated toward each other through mutual respect and similar flying styles.
For all we know, your anonymous source is Birdo. :)
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Wow, so I leave the country and when I return I find the pigs renegotiating the terms of a 4v1 with a muppet cuz the first pass was too hard for them. Cool.
Completely untrue. Re-read the posts from Grizz's intial claims to the most current discussion between us Sunbat. Trying to keep this from going below the belt and really do not care for a waste of time flame out. I am trying to find a way that proves or disproves the claims made about LOW ENY/EZ mode planes. If that is undertood, then we are cool as you say.
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All these supposed "great ones" that has come back and fought Grizz in the DA have had a hard time squeaking out one victory of the 20 fights they fought. The Creton beatdown was interesting to witness and he dissappeared not long after that as just one example that comes to mind quickly...
Truly, Grizz's skill at playing the game for years on end and then beating rusty "great ones" years removed from their prime is legendary. I know this because he and you keep telling us so!
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For all we know, your anonymous source is Birdo. :)
I said respected. :lol
I mean no disrespect I am certain the three of us would pillage through hordes and furballs if we flew together. The comparisons are apples and oranges and a little ridiculous tbh. But Bronk wanted to toss his hat into the troll ring. :lol
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Truly, Grizz's skill at playing the game for years on end and then beating rusty "great ones" years removed from their prime is legendary. I know this because he and you keep telling us so!
Not at all, I do not take rust lightly. Fighting a rusty vet and winning is not much of an accomplishment. The best pilots I have fought are guys you have never fought against though which again, is why it is silly to compare players from different eras.
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I mean no disrespect I am certain the three of us would pillage through hordes and furballs if we flew together. The comparisons are apples and oranges and a little ridiculous tbh. But Bronk wanted to toss his hat into the troll ring. :lol
Heh, I'm just saying that Nath in his prime was almost otherworldly. He didn't just fly planes that nobody flew back then (109G10, 190A8), but he flew them to the edge of their envelopes and beyond. He mastered snap roll reversals and induced spins to his advantage in close duels. Some of the stuff he pulled at times made me shake my head in disbelief. He was really, really good. His aim put me to shame too - I remember him 30mm sniping Fester, who attempting to rope him, from 600-700 yards out.
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I said respected. :lol
I mean no disrespect I am certain the three of us would pillage through hordes and furballs if we flew together. The comparisons are apples and oranges and a little ridiculous tbh. But Bronk wanted to toss his hat into the troll ring. :lol
See here is the thing... Nath was uber in the 109s before the "lufwobble fix" which made the 109s EZ mode.
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See here is the thing... Nath was uber in the 109s before the "lufwobble fix" which made the 109s EZ mode.
I didn't fly before the "lufwobble fix".
Btw, What do you fly?
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I didn't fly before the "lufwobble fix".
Precisely.
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See here is the thing... Nath was uber in the 109s before the "lufwobble fix" which made the 109s EZ mode.
DOH. See Grizz, EZ is subjective. LOL Bronk
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Grizz i am not trying to be an arse but you still are interjecting pilot quality into your challenge.
I have personally watched guys like laz wade into dweeb lake in an fm2 OTD and take out 6 or 7 spit XVI before getting zapped by a warp speed temp.... is the FM2 more uber than the XVI now?
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Bronk, 109 will never be EZ mode. Its a high preformance plane yes, but you need to be a good pilot and be familiar with the plane before it will start to shine. But a Spitfire? Stick anyone with a decent grasp of ACM in the cocpit and he'll do reasonably well in it.
Fact is that the spitfire is easier to fly, and easier to fly close to its maximum potential than a 109K.
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Bronk if the vast majority of the player base was flying the 39Q and P40E's, I'd be in the EZ mode plane. But they're not, they're in Spits and P51ds.
I also never said the K4 was the toughest bird in the game but it was far from easy. Did you see how the Pigs were gun shy about fighting me 4v1 in K4s vs my Spit16? It must not be that easy if they need to renegotiate the terms of a 4v1 gang bang.
You need a competitive aircraft in the MA if you want to have any fun.
I don't believe that Grizz. You throw a really good stick in a P40 and he'll do just fine in the MA. Guys do it in Wildcats. I have pretty good time in a 1942-43 P38G.
Nothing I like more then running into Spitfires including 16s.
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I don't believe that Grizz. You throw a really good stick in a P40 and he'll do just fine in the MA. Guys do it in Wildcats. I have pretty good time in a 1942-43 P38G.
Nothing I like more then running into Spitfires including 16s.
But that's because you are "sick" my friend! How you 38 drivers manage to get soo filthy-good in those things is incredible. Pure nastiness....
:salute
Changeup
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Grizz i am not trying to be an arse but you still are interjecting pilot quality into your challenge.
I have personally watched guys like laz wade into dweeb lake in an fm2 OTD and take out 6 or 7 spit XVI before getting zapped by a warp speed temp.... is the FM2 more uber than the XVI now?
You bring up the FM2, which I put in the "Turny Class" of airplanes. The Turny Class makes for an interesting discussion because it is difficult to make heads or tails of what is actually being accomplished flying something that out turns most aircraft in the game.
In all 1v1 situations in a turny plane you should kill anyone dumb enough to fight you and you should also end up frustrated from most of those who will run from you.
As for fighting in an FM2 outnumbered.. Yes, obviously fighting outnumbered takes skill. It requires high SA, the ability to reverse, kill quickly, and do so methodically. But honestly in an FM2 what are you really doing? It requires very little throttle work since it is already a turning beast and is naturally slower, you basically pull the same full throttle reversal over and over again and faster planes fly by and you shoot them with laser guided 50 cals. That's all it really is. And that's how all the turny planes are.
So while I do appreciate the overall level of skill it takes to fight outnumbered and be able to assess the entire situation from a SA perspective, I don't think killing a few guys low and slow on the deck in an Fm2 is any more impressive than doing it in a Spit9, Spit16, Zero, Hurric, or Brewster for that matter.
P.S. Since you didn't tell me what you fly, I assume you fly an EZ mode plane.
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I don't believe that Grizz. You throw a really good stick in a P40 and he'll do just fine in the MA. Guys do it in Wildcats. I have pretty good time in a 1942-43 P38G.
Nothing I like more then running into Spitfires including 16s.
The point was, if everyone was in P40s and I was in a K4, relatively speaking, I would be in the EZ ride.
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Oh Grizz....now you went and did it man.....you stuck your finger in my IX's eyeball. The Spitgawds are shaking fingers at you now! ;)
Changeup
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DOH. See Grizz, EZ is subjective. LOL Bronk
Not quite waystin. This is just a case of EZ moders defending one another. That's what EZ moders do.
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You bring up the FM2, which I put in the "Turny Class" of airplanes. The Turny Class makes for an interesting discussion because it is difficult to make heads or tails of what is actually being accomplished flying something that out turns most aircraft in the game.
Now we have "turny class" airplanes? Are those a subset of EZ mode? This gets confusing.
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Now we have "turny class" airplanes? Are those a subset of EZ mode? This gets confusing.
If you would like for me to draw you a diagram I can, I'm not too busy today. But no, I don't classify all "turny birds" as EZ mode. I wouldn't classify the FM2 as EZ mode, but it's not all that difficult to kill bad guys in a furball in a plane that outturns most everything else in the furball...
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If you would like for me to draw you a diagram I can, I'm not too busy today. But no, I don't classify all "turny birds" as EZ mode. I wouldn't classify the FM2 as EZ mode, but it's not all that difficult to kill bad guys in a furball in a plane that outturns most everything else in the furball...
Yes, a nice Venn diagram would be swell.
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Yes, a nice Venn diagram would be swell.
Excellent, it is going to be hand drawn and scanned in all its glory. I'll have it up as soon as possible.
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I've got it covered grizz.
(http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z375/DasHetzer/planediagram.jpg)
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Are you guys serious?
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Tank...ummm, please list the planes in the appropriate areas. Grizz's work would never have been this shabby. Go back and do it again
Changeup
VP of Venn Solutions
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Do you want me to classify the tanks as well?
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What's the difference between Standard difficulty and Advanced difficulty? So confusing...
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What's the difference between Standard difficulty and Advanced difficulty? So confusing...
Standard difficulty...... having key to john
Advanced difficulty.... not having key to john
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(http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo237/grizz441/110811134758-001.jpg)
If you're below the Mendoza Line, you fly an EZ mode airplane and should probably reevaluate your entire existence. Cheers. :devil
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You have upset INK and I. Just sayin...
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You have upset INK and I. Just sayin...
The official list knows not the color of one's skin.
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You have upset INK and I. Just sayin...
Ink knows his ride is easy mode, and thats why he can take on 8+ guys and win!
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Not quite waystin. This is just a case of EZ moders defending one another. That's what EZ moders do.
I asked you honestly earlier to help me devise some sort of fair experiment or tracking of stats to establish your EZ mode as a real quantifiable thing. Do you have any ideas? Otherwise we are still in the land of subjective opinions. Your original argument lacks any credibility, and smacks of dislike for certain plane types that are not your preference. I'll give this up to you being stubborn and hard-headed soon, as your arguments keep coming back to labeling and name chucking. It bores me.
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The official list knows not the color of one's skin.
Pffft....I need a drink
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The P-40 is a turny bird now? Where's the P-39? Why is the Spit VIII a hybrid but the Spit IX a turny bird?
La7 isn't considered EZ mode. Shane will be very pleased to hear that.
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The Creton beatdown was interesting to witness and he dissappeared not long after that as just one example that comes to mind quickly...
Creton was hardly one of the "top sticks" except in his own mind.
ack-ack
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The P-40 is a turny bird now? Where's the P-39? Why is the Spit VIII a hybrid but the Spit IX a turny bird?
La7 isn't considered EZ mode. Shane will be very pleased to hear that.
That's because Grizz's list has no basis in fact other than his own opinion. It's all the counts here anyway right? :rolleyes:
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You have upset INK and I. Just sayin...
ya man seriously that's why I fly it, it is a very easy plane to fly, that has great climb, great guns, gets fast or slow real quick, turns awesome, the only thing it lacks is high speed "run away" power...which I wouldn't use anyway.
like Grizz said earlier to be competitive in MA you need a good plane....and no I dont believe anyone in a P40 will be competitive in the MA, fighting along side a bunch of green guys not withstanding..... :old:
Ink knows his ride is easy mode, and thats why he can take on 8+ guys and win!
:rofl
I wish I could do it EVERY time...sad to say my aim is so bad....don't know how many times I said to my self...damn I wish I had Grizz targeting skills...... :rofl
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The P-40 is a turny bird now? Where's the P-39? Why is the Spit VIII a hybrid but the Spit IX a turny bird?
La7 isn't considered EZ mode. Shane will be very pleased to hear that.
Yes P40 is turny bird. P39 is off the page in its own "pure crap" circle. Jk, I forgot about that plane. Spit 8 is right on the edge of turny bird, probably should be. Spit16 is close also. They're right on the edge. La7 is not a turny bird and it is close to being ez mode, but not quite.
If I ever redo this diagram into AUTOCad I'll be sure to make these adjustments, as well as listing the planes in order approaching the mendoza line as I see appropriate as well. Thank you for your input into this most excellent project.
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Yes P40 is turny bird. P39 is off the page in its own "pure crap" circle. Jk, I forgot about that plane. Spit 8 is right on the edge of turny bird, probably should be. Spit16 is close also. They're right on the edge. La7 is not a turny bird and it is close to being ez mode, but not quite.
If I ever redo this diagram into AUTOCad I'll be sure to make these adjustments, as well as listing the planes in order approaching the mendoza line as I see appropriate as well. Thank you for your input into this most excellent project.
LA7 is most certainly "easy" mode....your getting :old:
LA7 is the top easy mode ride...it is one of the best turners in game and one of the fastest.....definitely easy mode.
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I just can’t believe that not one of these great ones has never showed back up and been significantly good in any way. Not one. Not EVER. Statistically speaking, that is unlikely and points to the more likely conclusion that they just weren’t as good as all the noobs at the time (who are vets now and dumb ppl listen to for some reason) remember them to be.
The Spit 16 is easy. The more you people argue that it is not, the more you make yourself look stupid. I remember Lute arguing that the N1K was hard to fly. What an ultramaroon...
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Ardy and INK,
Then I will continue in the Spit IX....I will refer all Spitcheesewithmywhine whiners to you both. Excellent news indeed....carry on
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La7 turns worse than the Ki84. It is fast but it is not a b&z'r. If it is simply flown for its speed and its speed alone I agree it is EZ mode, but if it is flown the way it should be flown, it is not EZ mode and falls into our "Hybird" Category.
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La7 turns worse than the Ki84. It is fast but it is not a b&z'r. If it is simply flown for its speed and its speed alone I agree it is EZ mode, but if it is flown the way it should be flown, it is not EZ mode and falls into our "Hybird" Category.
you sure it turns worse then the KI? im not sure of that...especially at high speed, it will easily out turn the KI....gonna check it out
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you sure it turns worse then the KI? im not sure of that...especially at high speed, it will easily out turn the KI....gonna check it out
Ki outturns it, I just checked gonzoville.
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Ardy and INK,
Then I will continue in the Spit IX....I will refer all Spitcheesewithmywhine whiners to you both. Excellent news indeed....carry on
:rofl :rofl give me your address, I'll send you some training wheels. You have now officially graduated from me having to hold the back of your bicycle as you pedal. :D
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Ki outturns it, I just checked gonzoville.
what is the site you can compare like up to four planes?
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That's because Grizz's list has no basis in fact other than his own opinion. It's all the counts here anyway right? :rolleyes:
And to answer your previous question which I was not ignoring, I really don't care anymore in "proving" something I already know to be indisputable fact, and that is, the Spit16, is EZ mode. That's just my opinion though, there are plenty of Spit16 pilots that disagree with me. :rofl
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lol
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:rofl :rofl give me your address, I'll send you some training wheels. You have now officially graduated from me having to hold the back of your bicycle as you pedal. :D
Will you send INK some too? His KI is is bad disrepair. Oh and I shot three bunnies this week in Wichita, KS while I was there on Biz. Gonna hang the skins on my wall. Want one?
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Will you send INK some too? His KI is is bad disrepair. Oh and I shot three bunnies this week in Wichita, KS while I was there on Biz. Gonna hang the skins on my wall. Want one?
killing family members?!!?!?!
now your getting personal :mad: :mad: :( :mad:
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I just can’t believe that not one of these great ones has never showed back up and been significantly good in any way. Not one. Not EVER. Statistically speaking, that is unlikely and points to the more likely conclusion that they just weren’t as good as all the noobs at the time (who are vets now and dumb ppl listen to for some reason) remember them to be.
That's a silly and self-serving statement to say the least. I'm not even sure where to begin with all of the assumptions you've built into it.
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I asked you honestly earlier to help me devise some sort of fair experiment or tracking of stats to establish your EZ mode as a real quantifiable thing. Do you have any ideas? Otherwise we are still in the land of subjective opinions. Your original argument lacks any credibility, and smacks of dislike for certain plane types that are not your preference. I'll give this up to you being stubborn and hard-headed soon, as your arguments keep coming back to labeling and name chucking. It bores me.
I have one but it would be a lot of work. The problem is looking at plane stats as a whole. If you want to factor out pilot quality all you have to do is look at the stats of the planes per pilot
so if Dweebnoober1 has K/D of .46, he has a distribution of the planes he flies. The relative position of planes in that distribution gives a clue as to which planes are easy and which are difficult for that pilot. Example: of his .46 K/D the SpitXVI is his best plane at .57 and the P-39 is his worst plane at .03. Relative to this guy the SPitXVI ranks Number 1, and is x standards deviations above his average. Do the same for every player, and you can examine which planes rank above a players average and by how much, and how often. The population density distribution of those pilot-relative rankings will identify the planes that are easymode.
The problem as I see it is extracting that data from the stats page, means searching each player, one at a time to get his/her individual distributions. anyone have the time? :salute
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Vink,
I, personally, would rather rub crap in my hair than complete that project...but that's me. :bhead
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Vink,
I, personally, would rather rub crap in my hair than complete that project...but that's me. :bhead
:rofl
Vink, great effort man I think that would work for the most part, although it wouldn't take into account "when" each individual plane was flown as far as in which in game situations, like base defense or offense.
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Vink,
I, personally, would rather rub crap in my hair than complete that project...but that's me. :bhead
Just pointing out that it's possible. I wasn't volunteering either! :D
The analysis would take 15 minutes once I had the data. All the work is getting the data. I don;t know of a faster way, but if someone does let me know. :salute
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Just pointing out that it's possible. I wasn't volunteering either! :D
The analysis would take 15 minutes once I had the data. All the work is getting the data. I don;t know of a faster way, but if someone does let me know. :salute
Get Lusche!!! I will rub my crap in his hair! He has data-table-majik.
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:rofl
Vink, great effort man I think that would work for the most part, although it wouldn't take into account "when" each individual plane was flown as far as in which in game situations, like base defense or offense.
Exactly! I do that with Spitsteen. I only fly them for base defense so my K/D in them stinks, but those exception might pop, and the extremum dropped. I hope the large number of players would produce statistically significant data in the center away from the extremes.
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Exactly! I do that with Spitsteen. I only fly them for base defense so my K/D in them stinks, but those exception might pop, and the extremum dropped. I hope the large number of players would produce statistically significant data in the center away from the extremes.
The population likely would. A stats man, I like it. :aok
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I just received a warning from our corp mail servers that a hacking attempt may be occurring because of the volume of auto-emails (HTC notification emails about this thread). This will not end well for me...
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Btw, I just pwned you all on the deck in my K4 in this thread.
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LOL at the A6M as easy mode.
That is completely absurd. An aircraft that is extremely slow, handles poorly at speed, catches fire easily and has poor or below average guns depending on the version.
I agree that the Spitfire Mk XVI and Spitfire Mk VIII are relatively easy to be successful in, but that is supported by historical data as well. Whining about them in the game like you lot do is pathetic.
Also, the Mossie seems to have been left out of that chart, Grizz. I am not sure if it is easy mode for the nose mounted Hispanos and speed or hard mode for its relative lack of maneuverability.
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That data collection would also be skewed because not everybody flies everything. How many people who've been here less than a year have more than maybe 1 or 2 sorties in the Ta-152 as an example?
I don't think EZ mode can be quantified in this regard.
Wiley.
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LOL at the A6M as easy mode.
That is completely absurd. An aircraft that is extremely slow, handles poorly at speed, catches fire easily and has poor or below average guns depending on the version.
I got lazy with the A6m's because who honestly gives a hoot about zeros. I should have split up the Zero's and the early war one goes in Turny bird, but the A6m2b and the A6m3 are both easy mode. Please refer to FM2 discussion for my reasoning. And the fact that the zero is the sharpest turner in the game aside from the Hurri1, it definitely allows it to fall into the category of EZ mode. Speed is irrelevant when you are picking furballs and only beating people in turn fights that are stupid enough to fight you.
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Also, the Mossie seems to have been left out of that chart, Grizz. I am not sure if it is easy mode for the nose mounted Hispanos and speed or hard mode for its relative lack of maneuverability.
Oops! The Mossie belongs in the B&Z category and while it does have ez mode hispanos, its other significant drawbacks prevent it from being EZ mode.
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I have one but it would be a lot of work. The problem is looking at plane stats as a whole. If you want to factor out pilot quality all you have to do is look at the stats of the planes per pilot
so if Dweebnoober1 has K/D of .46, he has a distribution of the planes he flies. The relative position of planes in that distribution gives a clue as to which planes are easy and which are difficult for that pilot. Example: of his .46 K/D the SpitXVI is his best plane at .57 and the P-39 is his worst plane at .03. Relative to this guy the SPitXVI ranks Number 1, and is x standards deviations above his average. Do the same for every player, and you can examine which planes rank above a players average and by how much, and how often. The population density distribution of those pilot-relative rankings will identify the planes that are easymode.
As interesting as this project sounds, I doubt it would get us any closer to an objective answer on "Which planes are EZ mode?" ;)
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I got lazy with the A6m's because who honestly gives a hoot about zeros. I should have split up the Zero's and the early war one goes in Turny bird, but the A6m2b and the A6m3 are both easy mode. Please refer to FM2 discussion for my reasoning. And the fact that the zero is the sharpest turner in the game aside from the Hurri1, it definitely allows it to fall into the category of EZ mode. Speed is irrelevant when you are picking furballs and only beating people in turn fights that are stupid enough to fight you.
Doesn't matter when all somebody has to do to beat you is not turn with you and when what would be a glancing hit to any other fighter turns you into a comet.
In my experience, what makes a plane easy is not the turning, it is the E generation. The better the E generation the easier it is. There are exceptions, but that is the single most important factor.
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so if Dweebnoober1 has K/D of .46, he has a distribution of the planes he flies. The relative position of planes in that distribution gives a clue as to which planes are easy and which are difficult for that pilot. Example: of his .46 K/D the SpitXVI is his best plane at .57 and the P-39 is his worst plane at .03. Relative to this guy the SPitXVI ranks Number 1, and is x standards deviations above his average. Do the same for every player, and you can examine which planes rank above a players average and by how much, and how often. The population density distribution of those pilot-relative rankings will identify the planes that are easymode.
I tried to do some basic stuff with the number of kills in each ride (because I too am too lazy to do what you suggested), but as others pointed out, it to would fail to account for the situations that a person chose to fly the ride.
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Doesn't matter when all somebody has to do to beat you is not turn with you and when what would be a glancing hit to any other fighter turns you into a comet.
In my experience, what makes a plane easy is not the turning, it is the E generation. The better the E generation the easier it is. There are exceptions, but that is the single most important factor.
Lets be careful not to embellish too much to prove a point. While the A6m is definitely one of the weak birds in the game, it still requires a solid hit to set aflame. I see where you are coming from and perhaps the zekes are borderline "Turnybird" and "EZ MODE" as the Spit8 is borderline "Hybrid" and "Turny Bird". I appreciate the critique. My revamped list will split the zero's up, and I will also add the Mossy. You and Leviathn alike, I thank you for your input into this most worthy project.
Any other glaringly absurd problems with my list or are you just a zeke fan?
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I know that 'bunnies' in a spit 16 will kill 'bunnies' in a k4,
I can honestly say a Snailman in a Spit 16 would rarely kill a Snailman in a K4 in the MA. Not because the Snail is more used to the K4, but simply because he would use the terrific speed advantage of the K4 to get away at an early point. Only when you put young Lusche in his n00b days in both planes, the Spit 16 would mostly beat the K4 because the K4-Lusche would have either missed the best moment to disengage or simply would have lawn darted his plane.
But once both players are not only of the same skill level, but actually experienced sticks (and not slavishly sticking to a silly "honor" code), the K4 would die less often.
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Any other glaringly absurd problems with my list or are you just a zeke fan?
Personally, I'd put the Bf109K-4 in the borderline category as well. It generates E like mad, but is held back by the 30mm's ballistics.
I agree the A6M3 can stick on somebody pretty well, but actually doing anything to them is harder due to the poor ballistics of the Type 99 Model 1 cannons.
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I can honestly say a Snailman in a Spit 16 would rarely kill a Snailman in a K4 in the MA. Not because the Snail is more used to the K4, but simply because he would use the terrific speed advantage of the K4 to get away at an early point. Only when you put young Lusche in his n00b days in both planes, the Spit 16 would mostly beat the K4 because the K4-Lusche would have either missed the best moment to disengage or simply would have lawn darted his plane.
But once both players are not only of the same skill level, but actually experienced sticks (and not slavishly sticking to a silly "honor" code), the K4 would die less often.
I LOVE this guy!!! (see the D9 vs 16 part of this thread)
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I can honestly say a Snailman in a Spit 16 would rarely kill a Snailman in a K4 in the MA. Not because the Snail is more used to the K4, but simply because he would use the terrific speed advantage of the K4 to get away at an early point. Only when you put young Lusche in his n00b days in both planes, the Spit 16 would mostly beat the K4 because the K4-Lusche would have either missed the best moment to disengage or simply would have lawn darted his plane.
But once both players are not only of the same skill level, but actually experienced sticks (and not slavishly sticking to a silly "honor" code), the K4 would die less often.
I LOVE this guy!!! (see the D9 vs 16 part of this thread)
Key point, they did not enter the fight co-e. All my comments I stated and repeated, if they are co-e.
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Key point, they did not enter the fight co-e. All my comments I stated and repeated, if they are co-e.
In the MA, planes are rarely CO-E. and I was thinking we are talking about the planes purely in the MA context and not about a constructed DA setting. And in the MA, the K-4 will more often be able to walk away from the 16 than the 16 from the K-4.
But by and large, my comment also holds true for a co-E setting, unless you deliberately chose to only look at a setup that would favor the Spit 16 Snailman.
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Key point, they did not enter the fight co-e. All my comments I stated and repeated, if they are co-e.
Dood...no backpedaling. Its common knowledge bunnies cannot walk backwards...even though it may be in their nature now shooosh already! :x
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In the MA, planes are rarely CO-E. and I was thinking we are talking about the planes purely in the MA context and not about a constructed DA setting.
But by and large, my comment also holds true for a co-E setting, unless you deliberately chose to only look at a setup that would favor the Spit 16 Snailman.
Co E, a K4 cannot out E a Spit16 very easily. So I'm not exactly sure how a Spit16 snailman would manage to squander the fight.
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Co E, a K4 cannot out E a Spit16 very easily. So I'm not exactly sure how a Spit16 snailman would manage to squander the fight.
Slow speed co-e weould be more difficult than high speed low-e. In the MA, the K-4 Snailman does a lot to avoid low speed co-e with a Spit 16. :)
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Dood...no backpedaling. Its common knowledge bunnies cannot walk backwards...even though it may be in their nature now shooosh already! :x
Thats what I told you, your bike only has one gear, pedal backwards and the breaks lock up....
For everyone else.. about the being co-e 'requirement'
Again, if they start out at the same speed and same alt, the spit 16 will get the kill.
Its very hard to 'out e' a spit 16 if they start out co-e.
BTW any plane will beat another plane if it enters the fight with a large enough 'e' adv, so comparing planes at different 'e' states is meaningless.
Slow speed co-e weould be more difficult than high speed low-e. In the MA, the K-4 Snailman does a lot to avoid low speed co-e with a Spit 16. :)
Real snails get low and slow... :devil
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Thats what I told you, your bike only has one gear, pedal backwards and the breaks lock up....
For everyone else.. about the being co-e 'requirement'
BTW any plane will beat another plane if it enters the fight with a large enough 'e' adv, so comparing planes at different 'e' states is meaningless.
Real snails get low and slow... :devil
I shoot and eat bunnies and hang their skins on my wall. How's that for pedaling forward? :neener:
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Real snails get low and slow... :devil
I never claimed to be real :D
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I shoot and eat bunnies and hang their skins on my wall. How's that for pedaling forward? :neener:
Every time you kill a bunnie, your kids will cry and your wife wont sleep with you.... :devil
sounds like you enjoy celibacy. :neener:
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I shoot and eat bunnies and hang their skins on my wall. How's that for pedaling forward? :neener:
Muppets eat bacon for breakfast, lunch and dinner. A lot... :ahand
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Btw, I just pwned you all on the deck in my K4 in this thread.
LOL you've gone classic cartoon fighter pilot in this one Grizz. Historically, fighter pilots of any country tend to minimize the capability of their ride, while proclaiming the uber and easiness of the other guys ride so when they defeat that other guy, it makes them feel that much better in having done so.
The difference with the real fighter pilots is they didn't have a choice to fly the other guys easy/uber bird. In the end we do :)
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LOL you've gone classic cartoon fighter pilot in this one Grizz. Historically, fighter pilots of any country tend to minimize the capability of their ride, while proclaiming the uber and easiness of the other guys ride so when they defeat that other guy, it makes them feel that much better in having done so.
The difference with the real fighter pilots is they didn't have a choice to fly the other guys easy/uber bird. In the end we do :)
Corky my list is very objective mmkah? I cut the bs and I made a beautiful venn diagram for the toon world to see and learn from. I know you agree with me and are just playing ambassador/bliss ninny which is why everybody loves you. :salute
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LOL you've gone classic cartoon fighter pilot in this one Grizz. Historically, fighter pilots of any country tend to minimize the capability of their ride, while proclaiming the uber and easiness of the other guys ride so when they defeat that other guy, it makes them feel that much better in having done so.
The difference with the real fighter pilots is they didn't have a choice to fly the other guys easy/uber bird. In the end we do :)
Basicly, Grizz is asking...
Did Corky go Porky? :neener:
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Muppets eat bacon for breakfast, lunch and dinner. A lot... :ahand
Thats because bacon is meat candy silly antlerboi. I shoot sheep too...but their heads are on my wall. I have two extra, want one?
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Corky my list is very objective mmkah? I cut the bs and I made a beautiful venn diagram for the toon world to see and learn from. I know you agree with me and are just playing ambassador/bliss ninny which is why everybody loves you. :salute
It has more to do then I just can't get worked up about it. I much prefer to see guys in Spits, N1KS and 109s as they tend to mix it up. Even the Corsair drivers are willing to bend the bird a bit. To me, with the way I play, the easy mode guys are in 262s, 51s, D9s, Tempests etc hanging up high, and blowing through the fight that someone else is having.
But I've been reminded many a time, that it's their dime, and I just have to live with it :)
The Spitfire was such a good short range fighter in WW2 because of exactly what it does here. It's forgiving, does most everything well and gives lower time pilots a chance to survive. The guys flying it for real back when lives were one a piece felt the same way about it.
When I run into Spits I seem to do ok against most folks in it. There is a huge difference between running into a guy who knows what he's doing and the average AH pilot. In that it gives the average pilot the confidence to get into a fight and to start learning to bend a cartoon fighter makes it much more of a preferable ride to me, then the Mustang for example. Most guys never learn how much a Mustang can do, because they hop in them new and only learn to fly it high, fast and straight.
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(http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo237/grizz441/ez-2.png)
The updated List. It's not perfect but it is damn close. Enjoy it numptys. :neener:
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Brewster above the line? Wmaker must be dating your sister. Check JUGglers sig and get back to us.
Changeup the big game hunter
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Most guys never learn how much a Mustang can do, because they hop in them new and only learn to fly it high, fast and straight.
This is why I love the 51. Almost everyone I fight thinks I'm going to run. By the time they realize I am actually fighting them, they have lost. I don't give a rats behind if people think its EZ mode. If it makes people feel better about themselves after getting killed, that's cool. I don't fly for others approval or pats on the back. i tend to talk crap in the heat of the moment, but honestly, I don't care what anyone flies. It's their 15 bucks and if they wanna fly a spit16, so be it. I will fight them in my 51 anyway. Some planes are harder to fly than others, but once you have learned what they can and cant do, you have hurdled over the learning curve, and each planes quirks become meaningless. All that matters after that is how it performs on the edge. Some planes ARE harder to learn than others, but with enough time any monkey can overcome the learning curve, and then apply their experience, gunnery, and knowledge of ACM, which is what makes the plane dangerous. Thats just my 2 cents.
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Brewster above the line? Wmaker must be dating your sister. Check JUGglers sig and get back to us.
Changeup the big game hunter
damn all this animal killing in one thread... you better hope PETA doesn't find out about this.
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I would like to thank this thread for helping get me through a couple boring days at work. :)
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This is why I love the 51. Almost everyone I fight thinks I'm going to run. By the time they realize I am actually fighting them, they have lost. I don't give a rats behind if people think its EZ mode. If it makes people feel better about themselves after getting killed, that's cool. I don't fly for others approval or pats on the back. i tend to talk crap in the heat of the moment, but honestly, I don't care what anyone flies. It's their 15 bucks and if they wanna fly a spit16, so be it. I will fight them in my 51 anyway. Some planes are harder to fly than others, but once you have learned what they can and cant do, you have hurdled over the learning curve, and each planes quirks become meaningless. All that matters after that is how it performs on the edge. Some planes ARE harder to learn than others, but with enough time any monkey can overcome the learning curve, and then apply their experience, gunnery, and knowledge of ACM, which is what makes the plane dangerous. Thats just my 2 cents.
You were actually mentioned earlier in this thread by name, in a good way. Not sure which page though. Gluck. :lol
:salute
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Me262 should be off the paper at the bottom, so charts wrong again :D
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I would like to thank this thread for helping get me through a couple boring days at work. :)
Pay it forward next week please.
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Me262 should be off the paper at the bottom, so charts wrong again :D
Off the paper in the B&z category. I have a difficult time calling a plane ez mode that not many people can be successful in though. :banana: :neener:
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pretty damn accurate Grizz
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I would like to thank this thread for helping get me through a couple boring days at work. :)
Agreed, this has been a constant stream of entertainment...
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I asked you honestly earlier to help me devise some sort of fair experiment or tracking of stats to establish your EZ mode as a real quantifiable thing. Do you have any ideas? Otherwise we are still in the land of subjective opinions. Your original argument lacks any credibility, and smacks of dislike for certain plane types that are not your preference. I'll give this up to you being stubborn and hard-headed soon, as your arguments keep coming back to labeling and name chucking. It bores me.
Its not really a stat-definable thing. I think they're planes that, as the name would suggest, are easy (in a relative sense) to fly, and easy to be reasonably succesfull in combat in.
For example, the 190A5 can be one of the most deadly planes in the game when flown correctly, but it takes someone better than the average spit stick to make it shine.
Same is true for the 109K, the A8, the Ta-152, the P-39, the P-40, P-47, etc.
Inversly, the spit 16 doesn't require you to fly it in any paticular style, or require you to do or avoid anything in paticular. Same is true for the P-51, the N1K, the Brewster, etc.
See what I'm talking about?
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Changeup the big game hunter
Pretty big words for a pulled pork sandwich...
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lol...all this because some dude read roman numerals wrong.
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(http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo237/grizz441/110811134758-001.jpg)
If you're below the Mendoza Line, you fly an EZ mode airplane and should probably reevaluate your entire existence. Cheers. :devil
(http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo237/grizz441/ez-2.png)
The updated List. It's not perfect but it is damn close. Enjoy it numptys. :neener:
La-7 Made it above the Medoza but the Dora didn't, not once, but twice!? :confused: :huh You're dead to me Grizz.
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I would like to thank this thread for helping get me through a couple boring days at work. :)
I agree! I've enjoyed this one! :airplane: ................. :airplane:
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damn all this animal killing in one thread... you better hope PETA doesn't find out about this.
Yes...I may not fly very well but with a rifle? If you run, you'll only die tired.
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I'm still waiting for someone to separate the IXs from the XVIs in the photos I posted about three pages in ;)
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Pretty big words for a pulled pork sandwich...
True dat....next time you come to Dallas you can come by the house and see the bighorn I've got hangin on the wall...I'd post a picture but nothing says "center mass" like seeing it in person right?
Other than that, what's next?
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Yes...I may not fly very well but with a rifle? If you run, you'll only die tired.
... so you'll miss your shots and bag me because I die of exhaustion?
Action snapshot of Elm...... changeup on a 'hunt'.
(http://s3images.coroflot.com/user_files/individual_files/195034_EM_Rlnre3OuFD7KUCTcn0FVdG.jpg)
BTW, your pig hoofs can't fit through the trigger guard...
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Action snapshot of Elm...... changeup on a 'hunt'.
(http://s3images.coroflot.com/user_files/individual_files/195034_EM_Rlnre3OuFD7KUCTcn0FVdG.jpg)
BTW, your pig hoofs can't fit through the trigger guard...
That's true but you aint nearly as cute, funny or smart as Bugs B....but you'll fit nicely in my stew pot.... :rock
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That's true but you aint nearly as cute, funny or smart as Bugs B....but you'll fit nicely in my stew pot.... :rock
I taut I saw a wabbit,..... I did, I did!!! :neener:
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Inversly, the spit 16 doesn't require you to fly it in any paticular style, or require you to do or avoid anything in paticular. Same is true for the P-51, the N1K, the Brewster, etc.
Erm, the B-239 is pretty much forced to fly exclusively TnB due to it being, you know, tied for the slowest fighter in AH along with the I-16 and having crap for E generation. You can go downhill with it well, but that only lasts as long as you have downhill. Not saying it isn't easy, just that it is forced into a particular fighting style.
By contrast, the Spitfire Mk XVI can use multiple styles very effectively, even transitioning between them well due to E generation.
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Brewster holds E well enough to compete in the BnZ with many of the best planes. Not sure why that is but it does.
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WMaker's clown car sense is working overtime right now
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WMaker's clown car sense is working overtime right now
Clown wagon... its a clown wagon
somewhere in Finland
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411MD6KPR8L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
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All this angst cause I misread the hangar perks. :huh
Honestly how often have we been here over this airplane ?
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I know this isnt a thread about a brewster, but... Its one of the easiest kills in the game unless you fly against it like a total moron. Its slower then almost everything, climbs like crap, blows E.
Do NOT turn with it. Do anything else, ANYTHING and it's a sitting duck against an average pilot.
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Brewster holds E well enough to compete in the BnZ with many of the best planes. Not sure why that is but it does.
Dunno, but for something that is "easymode" the B-239's K/D ratio sure sucks.
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Dunno, but for something that is "easymode" the B-239's K/D ratio sure sucks.
That's because it's the first plane on the menu in any furball. Anyone that let's one live in any fight is not smart
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I know this isnt a thread about a brewster, but... Its one of the easiest kills in the game unless you fly against it like a total moron. Its slower then almost everything, climbs like crap, blows E.
Do NOT turn with it. Do anything else, ANYTHING and it's a sitting duck against an average pilot.
Theres something in it. Once Sukov and me in 152s ran into like 20 brewsters... we landed 15 kills. What a turkey shoot that was.
In the other hand, the Brew can be very hard to avoid. Just look how Makers flying it: high, waiting for you to be separated, then dives on your six. You cant break and overshoot, you cant dive away unless you have more than 6-8k underneath, youre hopeless. It takes a time for him to regain the lost E, true, but he often has fellas nearby to cover him while climbing.
In the hands of a picky pilot, the brew can be very deadly. If he comes with E, he can get the kill on you (even tho he can be picked not as long after it...).
Some planes require ACM skills and SA to be successful. The brew only requires SA.
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I know this isnt a thread about a brewster, but... Its one of the easiest kills in the game unless you fly against it like a total moron. Its slower then almost everything, climbs like crap, blows E.
Do NOT turn with it. Do anything else, ANYTHING and it's a sitting duck against an average pilot.
wel this is something I completely disagree with...this kinda thought process....
if you never attempt to do it, you will never be able to do it..is my thinking..and I could post pics of me out turning not one brewster but TWO in my KI slow on the deck...while dodging a yak and 51.... :headscratch:
:rofl
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I taut I saw a wabbit,..... I did, I did!!! :neener:
lol wabbit slayer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dz0ATmlHby8&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dz0ATmlHby8&feature=related)
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Ouch nice try for a low blow bunnies :) Mickys from liverpool.. I always ask if he was on the Titanic :p
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La-7 Made it above the Medoza but the Dora didn't, not once, but twice!? :confused: :huh You're dead to me Grizz.
The list knows not the color of one's skin.
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wel this is something I completely disagree with...this kinda thought process....
if you never attempt to do it, you will never be able to do it..is my thinking..and I could post pics of me out turning not one brewster but TWO in my KI slow on the deck...while dodging a yak and 51.... :headscratch:
:rofl
Don't confuse the pilot with the airplane... The Buffalo has virtually the same turn radius as the A6M3. It will eat a Ki-84 for lunch in a simple turning contest. When you out-turn one with the Ki-84, you are out-flying its pilot, not the airplane. I shot down a SpitV with a P-51 in a maneuver fight... The Spit pilot must have been a noob, as he never came close to what his aircraft was capable of. The MA is loaded with pilots who have no concept of ACM, the SA of Stevie Wonder and the tactical sense of a box turtle crossing a freeway.
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Don't confuse the pilot with the airplane... The Buffalo has virtually the same turn radius as the A6M3. It will eat a Ki-84 for lunch in a simple turning contest. When you out-turn one with the Ki-84, you are out-flying its pilot, not the airplane. I shot down a SpitV with a P-51 in a maneuver fight... The Spit pilot must have been a noob, as he never came close to what his aircraft was capable of. The MA is loaded with pilots who have no concept of ACM, the SA of Stevie Wonder and the tactical sense of a box turtle crossing a freeway.
that is completely besides the point.....only reason I was able to out maneuver the two brews and friends was in the past I always fought no matter what......if I would have had a defeatist attitude IE " dont try that..... or it cant be done" I would not have clue one as to how to go about the killing of 4 nme cons....... alone.
but ya I understand what you are saying :D
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(http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo237/grizz441/ez-2.png)
The updated List. It's not perfect but it is damn close. Enjoy it numptys. :neener:
That is really good Grizz. Huzzah. No I’m not having a go either.
I looked at this and it really makes sense. At the root of it is, pick your bird, and pick your fight. If you fight the other guys fight, don’t blame anyone except the guy in the mirror when it doesn’t go to plan.
Well done.
For the rest of this thread that has become the never ending symphony of “perk this, perk that” “this is EZ, that is EZ”:
Give me your credit card details and I’ll fly whatever you want me to.
Please – and if you get some other charges that look a bit strange don’t worry. Not only are you helping me with my on line porn addiction hopefully you’re also earning loyalty points.
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lol...all this because some dude read roman numerals wrong.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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lol...all this because some dude read roman numerals wrong.
Well in the OP's defense, Roman Numerals aren't easymode numbers. :noid :bolt:
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Well in the OP's defense, Roman Numerals aren't easymode numbers. :noid :bolt:
:aok :rofl
Perk Roman Numerals?
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Well in the OP's defense, Roman Numerals aren't easymode numbers. :noid :bolt:
This is confusing. You think Grizz could make a Venn diagram showing us which numerals are EZ mode and which ones require incredible skill to master?
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That is really good Grizz. Huzzah. No I’m not having a go either.
I looked at this and it really makes sense. At the root of it is, pick your bird, and pick your fight. If you fight the other guys fight, don’t blame anyone except the guy in the mirror when it doesn’t go to plan.
Well done.
For the rest of this thread that has become the never ending symphony of “perk this, perk that” “this is EZ, that is EZ”:
Give me your credit card details and I’ll fly whatever you want me to.
Please – and if you get some other charges that look a bit strange don’t worry. Not only are you helping me with my on line porn addiction hopefully you’re also earning loyalty points.
I know this is a big thread, but you'll have to find where I ever told anyone else what or how to fly. All I did was call a spade a spade. If you want to fly the EZ rides that's great. Just have my Venn Diagram handy to check and see if what you are flying is EZ. Looking at your stats which also refreshes my memory, that you are a die hard Spit16 pilot. Are you British? If not, I'm laughing at you. :lol
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Few observations
2) Hispanos are considerably more lethal. D9 has more ammo though. Still, adv Spit
3) Spit XVI climbs much better
4) I'd give advantage in roll to Spit XVI (the band where d9 has adv is very narrow)
The only real adv D9 has is its speed and that's the only reason why majority of D9 pilots are flying it.
Why do people compare a fighter with a buff interceptor?
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This is confusing. You think Grizz could make a Venn diagram showing us which numerals are EZ mode and which ones require incredible skill to master?
No Venn Diagram required.
Although I will simplify the process of googling roman numerals for anyone who has difficulty reading them.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=roman+numerals
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At the risk of further confusing Leviathn, I will take my Plane Classifications a step further. My list is based on the planes performance and how I see it utilized by the vast majority of the player base in the game. There are exceptions however, based on flying style. For example, if you turn a Fw190A8 like KillnU, it goes from a borderline EZ mode B&Z aircraft, to an extremely difficult Hybrid.
(http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo237/grizz441/ez-2-1.png)
Colors:
Yellow: IrishOne in the 190A5. His ability and persistence to turn it and push the envelope push the A5 into the Hybrid Category very close to the P38's class.
Blue: BigR in the P51D. Same explanation. He pushes the envelope and uses it for both B&Z and close range and slow speed rolling scissor getting everything out of the P51. Quite a large jump from the normal deviation of P51D performance.
Pink: The timid noob in an La7. He refuses to do anything with the La7 other than run. He does not understand its capability as a fighter. As result he turns the La7 into a one dimensional B&Z fighter down with the P51D and Tempest. Unfortunately for him, he doesn't have the fuel to get many kills doing this.
Green: Ink in the Ki84. While it is more difficult to push an already decent turning aircraft into non ez mode territory, INK manages to do it. He neglects the Ki84's ability's in the vertical because it is beneath him as a warrior to not be in the thick of things turning with as many as he can. As result of this consistent style to the Ki84, he pushes the aircraft out of the Hybrid zone into Turny Bird Zone and also out of the EZ mode zone.
So just because you fly an EZ mode plane, there is hope for a slight adjustment based on how you fly. And just because you fly a non EZ mode plane, you might in fact be shifted into the EZ mode zone by flying it timidly in a purely one dimensional sense, like in our example with the Pink La7 Newbie.
EDIT: After a moment of reflection and a bribe from Shane that turned out to not pan out, I am slightly modifying the La7's initial placement to right on the edge of EZ mode in the Hybrid section. A minor shift, but it kind of irks me that it is not closer to that line.
There will be one more revision to my venn diagram before it is set in stone and made official for the end of toon time, so if there are any other inconsistencies that you see let me know with your reasoning and I may make some minor adjustments. Thank you, and Godspeed.
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Hot Pink - the noob, vet or expert flying a Brewster. It's ability to dodge anything in a fight coupled with it's pre-pubescent, no-skill-required flight characteristics make it the plane of choice for all easy moders. Grizz...to not see this is to ignore the blatantly obvious....it may cause your entire body of work on this ghettolicious project to be called into question.
V/r
Changeup
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Hot Pink - the noob, vet or expert flying a Brewster. It's ability to dodge anything in a fight coupled with it's pre-pubescent, no-skill-required flight characteristics make it the plane of choice for all easy moders. Grizz...to not see this is to ignore the blatantly obvious....it may cause your entire body of work on this ghettolicious project to be called into question.
V/r
Changeup
I have not seen much evidence of the Brewster being much different than where I have it. I could shift it towards the line slightly, but I don't think it is EZ mode compared to other, much easier choices in the Turny Birds section.
As for a vet flying it. I don't think it would deviate much either.
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I have not seen much evidence of the Brewster being much different than where I have it. I could shift it towards the line slightly, but I don't think it is EZ mode compared to other, much easier choices in the Turny Birds section.
As for a vet flying it. I don't think it would deviate much either.
Perhaps I'm presenting it incorrectly and should rephrase it in the form of a jeopardy-style dilemma....What makes it difficult to fly?
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I bet Nath could make a way better Venn diagram than that.
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I bet Nath could make a way better Venn diagram than that.
True. If we had a Venn diagram Best of 5 showdown he would likely win.
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All planes in Aces High are EZ mode! We throw out the check list and full start up procedure with pressing E to start :old:
However every Brewster must be shot down for it's roadkillery and it's pile-it must be kicked in the gondolas!
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Perhaps I'm presenting it incorrectly and should rephrase it in the form of a jeopardy-style dilemma....What makes it difficult to fly?
It's a matter of relativity to the similar turning planes around it. What makes any turny bird difficult to fly? What makes the Ki61 difficult to fly? Or the F4U1? Or the F6F for that matter?
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Maybe I'm just not seeing it, but is the 109G14 missing?
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Maybe I'm just not seeing it, but is the 109G14 missing?
:O
Nice catch. It will be added. It is close to the K4, just shifted slightly up and to the right in the hybrid section.
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At the risk of further confusing Leviathn, I will take my Plane Classifications a step further. My list is based on the planes performance and how I see it utilized by the vast majority of the player base in the game. There are exceptions however, based on flying style. For example, if you turn a Fw190A8 like KillnU, it goes from a borderline EZ mode B&Z aircraft, to an extremely difficult Hybrid.
(http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo237/grizz441/ez-2-1.png)
Colors:
Yellow: IrishOne in the 190A5. His ability and persistence to turn it and push the envelope push the A5 into the Hybrid Category very close to the P38's class.
Blue: BigR in the P51D. Same explanation. He pushes the envelope and uses it for both B&Z and close range and slow speed rolling scissor getting everything out of the P51. Quite a large jump from the normal deviation of P51D performance.
Pink: The timid noob in an La7. He refuses to do anything with the La7 other than run. He does not understand its capability as a fighter. As result he turns the La7 into a one dimensional B&Z fighter down with the P51D and Tempest. Unfortunately for him, he doesn't have the fuel to get many kills doing this.
Green: Ink in the Ki84. While it is more difficult to push an already decent turning aircraft into non ez mode territory, INK manages to do it. He neglects the Ki84's ability's in the vertical because it is beneath him as a warrior to not be in the thick of things turning with as many as he can. As result of this consistent style to the Ki84, he pushes the aircraft out of the Hybrid zone into Turny Bird Zone and also out of the EZ mode zone.
So just because you fly an EZ mode plane, there is hope for a slight adjustment based on how you fly. And just because you fly a non EZ mode plane, you might in fact be shifted into the EZ mode zone by flying it timidly in a purely one dimensional sense, like in our example with the Pink La7 Newbie.
EDIT: After a moment of reflection and a bribe from Shane that turned out to not pan out, I am slightly modifying the La7's initial placement to right on the edge of EZ mode in the Hybrid section. A minor shift, but it kind of irks me that it is not closer to that line.
There will be one more revision to my venn diagram before it is set in stone and made official for the end of toon time, so if there are any other inconsistencies that you see let me know with your reasoning and I may make some minor adjustments. Thank you, and Godspeed.
ALL the JUGS are in the B&Z category----> :( :P
Thats not very uplifting
JUGgler
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Your chart creates a conundrum for me... I have been flying the Ki84 as my primary ride for quite awhile now. I didn't realize that it was considered EZ Mode. So, I must now decide if I should switch to flying the C205 primarily to get above the EZ mode line, a plane that I enjoy also... Or ignore the chart and continue as I have been... Or just switch to the Spixteen altogether, since I was already in EZ mode apparently, why not go to Super EZ mode? :D
I guess the question is this... Is the EZ Mode line the same as a Dweeb line? Or is it possible to be below the EZ Mode line but above the Dweeb Line (not shown)? :bolt:
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Your chart creates a conundrum for me... I have been flying the Ki84 as my primary ride for quite awhile now. I didn't realize that it was considered EZ Mode. So, I must now decide if I should switch to flying the C205 primarily to get above the EZ mode line, a plane that I enjoy also... Or ignore the chart and continue as I have been... Or just switch to the Spixteen altogether, since I was already in EZ mode apparently, why not go to Super EZ mode? :D
:lol
The only non ez mode thing about the Ki84 is the fact that it can't dive well. But there's no reason to dive away from a fight when you can simply climb away from a fight. It does everything very very well. I hate to put it in EZ Mode territory but it truly is.
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It's a matter of relativity to the similar turning planes around it. What makes any turny bird difficult to fly? What makes the Ki61 difficult to fly? Or the F4U1? Or the F6F for that matter?
I respect this project because it oozes importance and urinates excellence ...but....your answer was an excellent deflection shot. I will try again...why is the Brewster not an easy mode plane when it is clearly easier to master than the entire list of planes below the line?
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ALL the JUGS are in the B&Z category----> :( :P
Thats not very uplifting
JUGgler
As I said before, the chart is based on how the majority of the pilots fly the planes of Aces High, but there can be modifications based on individual pilot habits as I showed in my previous illustration. You of course fly a Hybird non ez mode jug based on your hard headed persistence to turn it more than use its E to your advantage. :D
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True. If we had a Venn diagram Best of 5 showdown he would likely win.
Nah, he wasn't big on wasting time by drawing Venn diagrams to post on an online forum. You win by default.
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I respect this project because it oozes importance and urinates excellence ...but....your answer was an excellent deflection shot. I will try again...why is the Brewster not an easy mode plane when it is clearly easier to master than the entire list of planes below the line?
I am not in the business of deflecting questions. I will stand tall and proud by my list; I disagree with what you just said. How do you figure the planes below it to be more difficult to "master" or just worse planes in general? What can the Brewster do that the HurriC cannot do? HurriC has better guns, turns better, better visibility. Brewster dives better, that's it. In a 1v1 same pilot, HurriC beats Brewster, A6M beats Brewster easily. Spit9 likely beats Brewster.
Question for you sir, Why do you fly the Spit9 and not the Brewster? Abide by my chart, the Brewster is not EZ mode yet the Spit9 clearly is. Fly the Brewster, do better than you do in the Spit9, Master It. Show me how EZ mode it is. My experience and gut tells me that there is no chance you will be as lethal in the Brew as you are and have the potential to be in the Spit9, or HurriC and N1K for that matter.
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I'd actually put the La7 initially in the higher-end EZ mode BnZ category (acknowledging the negatives of the lala), with someone like me pushing it into the hybrid zone, much like killnu does with the FW.
But to be honest, all planes are easy-mode, especially after you learn them, some are just more newbie-friendly.
I'd have gone with that title "newbie-friendly" and "vet" - you'd have hooked even more, imho. :aok
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Nah, he wasn't big on wasting time by drawing Venn diagrams to post on an online forum. You win by default.
We all have to waste our time somehow. Especially when we have little to do at work yet are forced to still attend. That is my excuse, and I'll be here all day ladies and gentleman.
Btw, I have corn in my poop. :banana:
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Btw, I have corn in my poop. :banana:
i have it from an authority (friends of a plumber family) that, actually... you have poop in your corn.
:bolt:
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I'd actually put the La7 initially in the higher-end EZ mode BnZ category (acknowledging the negatives of the lala), with someone like me pushing it into the hybrid zone, much like killnu does with the FW.
But to be honest, all planes are easy-mode, especially after you learn them, some are just more newbie-friendly.
I'd have gone with that title "newbie-friendly" and "vet" - you'd have hooked even more, imho. :aok
I am not pleased with the current location of the La. I will revisit this before posting my final Diagram.
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I'd have gone with that title "newbie-friendly" and "vet" - you'd have hooked even more, imho. :aok
I disagree, I think calling people's favorite airplanes EZ Mode really gets their panties in a wad. Didn't you see me get waystin all riled up? :lol
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I disagree, I think calling people's favorite airplanes EZ Mode really gets their panties in a wad. Didn't you see me get waystin all riled up? :lol
Subtle bait works well sometimes...
EZ-Mode implies laziness.
Newbie-friendly implies lacking knowledge + skill.
Which is Waystin? :noid
:banana: :bolt:
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Subtle bait works well sometimes...
EZ-Mode implies laziness.
Newbie-friendly implies lacking knowledge + skill.
Which is Waystin? :noid
:banana: :bolt:
I'm not sure. Could be laziness, could be lack of knowledge + skill. Could be a combination stemming from laziness. Could be a number of things. I'm not qualified to evaluate his motives for flying teh EZ modes. :banana: :devil
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I know this is a big thread, but you'll have to find where I ever told anyone else what or how to fly. All I did was call a spade a spade. If you want to fly the EZ rides that's great. Just have my Venn Diagram handy to check and see if what you are flying is EZ. Looking at your stats which also refreshes my memory, that you are a die hard Spit16 pilot. Are you British? If not, I'm laughing at you. :lol
No 2 separate ideas - love the Venn diagram and congratulated you for it. No sarcasm at all.
Then went off on a tangent about dweeb planes v dweeb pilots and the whole damn thing. No I'm Australian, which is sort of British only more improved. We pay for things when we go shopping, not kick the door in with 500 of our closest friends, take what we want and burn the place.
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I am not in the business of deflecting questions. I will stand tall and proud by my list; I disagree with what you just said. How do you figure the planes below it to be more difficult to "master" or just worse planes in general? What can the Brewster do that the HurriC cannot do? HurriC has better guns, turns better, better visibility. Brewster dives better, that's it. In a 1v1 same pilot, HurriC beats Brewster, A6M beats Brewster easily. Spit9 likely beats Brewster.
Question for you sir, Why do you fly the Spit9 and not the Brewster? Abide by my chart, the Brewster is not EZ mode yet the Spit9 clearly is. Fly the Brewster, do better than you do in the Spit9, Master It. Show me how EZ mode it is. My experience and gut tells me that there is no chance you will be as lethal in the Brew as you are and have the potential to be in the Spit9, or HurriC and N1K for that matter.
Sir I beg to differ. In the DA experiment dated Jan 12, 2011 Dr JUGgler performed direct and conclusive testing in the DA on this very subject. Test participants included myself, SERaider, JUG, and several others...participants can be recalled by Dr JUGgler if need be...I believe there to still be a thread regarding the test parameters and participants. The outcome was Brewster wins by a slight margin vs all of the turny planes you listed.
So am I to assume you have disregarded Dr JUGglers entire test? Every aircraft lost to the Brewster....what say you?
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No I'm Australian, which is sort of British only more improved. We pay for things when we go shopping, not kick the door in with 500 of our closest friends, take what we want and burn the place.
:rofl
If I were a Brit, I would toss a rainbow snap and say, "Oh no he didn'!"
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Dr JUGgler
wtf?!? is he trying to give free exams again? he didn't ask you to get naked and cough, did he?
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Lets get to the root of this... The main problem is Grizz not getting legend status... like say Nath... or Levi. Every one follow sunbat's lead pat grizz on the back so his ego is stroked enough.
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Lets get to the root of this...
indeed, lets :) ahem.........(http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af263/irishone920/imagesCABJGQDE.jpg)
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It may take me a while and I may need some qualified data from folks but I am creating a Plane Edge Rating for planes based on 10 different criteria. All of which exclude pilot skill, experience, plane pecularities and represent purely plane potential only. I am truly trying to get to the bottom of this EZ mode discussion to see if there is anything to it other than BBS banter! Initial results are interesting...
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Lets get to the root of this... The main problem is Grizz not getting legend status... like say Nath... or Levi. Every one follow sunbat's lead pat grizz on the back so his ego is stroked enough.
To be a legend you must quit the game and have your friends talk you up for years to follow. Since I still fly and my friends hate me, I can never be a legend. I always enjoy beating up on past legends in the DA though. :banana:
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It may take me a while and I may need some qualified data from folks but I am creating a Plane Edge Rating for planes based on 10 different criteria.
Like this? http://www.jcsautomation.com/AH_View_Planes.asp
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Like this? http://www.jcsautomation.com/AH_View_Planes.asp
The Brewster is missing...
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The Brewster is missing...
Of course it is, this is a few years old. Just like this discussion ;)
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To be a legend you must quit the game and have your friends talk you up for years to follow. Since I still fly and my friends hate me, I can never be a legend. I always enjoy beating up on past legends in the DA though. :banana:
Well, good afternoon to you, Captain Insecure. Congratulations on your success in beating people years removed from the game while flying literally hundreds of hours in the past several months. As we know, playing any game that involves practiced reflex actions, exceptional timing, muscle memory, and good stick control is just like riding a bike. No doubt you encountered these legends at the top of their game in well-oiled fighting shape, which makes you better than them in every conceivable way.
You, sir, are the new evolution of pilot. People don't call you a legend, because that's not enough.... you are to legends what legends are to the rest of us.
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Hey, here is an idea. Why not create another category also. That would be the one that includes the guys that could not make it in an easy mode fighter. Lets say a Spitfire for example. After the fail, they move on to a plane that is not really an "easy mode" turn fighter that has a one shot one kill wonder gun and instead of learning how to easy mode turn fight, they just practice their aim (with all the concessions provide by the game. Lets say F3 mode in the DA for example or hanging out at the end of runways plucking low and slow newbies of the sky.) These are just examples. Any similarity to any real players is purely coincidental but I am wondering how many will make the list :neener:
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Like this? http://www.jcsautomation.com/AH_View_Planes.asp
LOL 109K4 ranks highest.
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LOL 109K4 ranks highest.
If you give all factors the same weight, yes. But of course one can change the filters and priorities until his fighter of choice will come out as #1 :D
And this shows the problem... all attempts to get to an objective conclusion purely base on performance data will run into a dead end at some point.
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wtf?!? is he trying to give free exams again? he didn't ask you to get naked and cough, did he?
:uhoh what if he did ask :uhoh
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If you give all factors the same weight, yes. But of course one can change the filters and priorities until his fighter of choice will come out as #1 :D
I was about to modify my comment to remark that no doubt Grizz will weight turn rate and other factors disproportionately until the K4 falls far below first place. That's to be expected of course.
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Well, good afternoon to you, Captain Insecure. Congratulations on your success in beating people years removed from the game while flying literally hundreds of hours in the past several months. As we know, playing any game that involves practiced reflex actions, exceptional timing, muscle memory, and good stick control is just like riding a bike. No doubt you encountered these legends at the top of their game in well-oiled fighting shape, which makes you better than them in every conceivable way.
You, sir, are the new evolution of pilot. People don't call you a legend, because that's not enough.... you are to legends what legends are to the rest of us.
I'm only insecure about my friends not liking me, not about my cartoon piloting. I'm down to fight anyone anytime. :aok
Your post and things you have said stink of insecurity though. For example you have said that when you come back you will fly in shades to knock rust off. This is insecurity at its finest. I also know for fact that you have been flying in shades within the past year in the dueling arena knocking rust off. :aok
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LOL 109K4 ranks highest.
Only if you are foolish enough to think every metric in those tables should be weighted equally.
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Your post and things you have said stink of insecurity though. For example you have said that when you come back you will fly in shades to knock rust off. This is insecurity at its finest. I also know for fact that you have been flying in shades within the past year in the dueling arena knocking rust off. :aok
On the contrary. I would fly in shades because of folks like yourself. I'd want to fly in peace, not have you hunting me down for trophy sport. Sorry, my money and time aren't spent to make you feel better about yourself.
I've flown possibly 5 hours in the last year on two-week accounts, not so much to knock rust off as to see the status of the game and see if I still have the desire to keep playing. So far, no desire. So sorry, you'll just have to guess how good it could have been to kill me over and over. That won't be a problem from what I can tell.
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Like this? http://www.jcsautomation.com/AH_View_Planes.asp
Awesome Lusche. Thank you. :aok
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http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,304106.0.html
The Dr JUGgler test on the Brew....
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Only if you are foolish enough to think every metric in those tables should be weighted equally.
I'd only be foolish if I thought you wouldn't weight things disproportionately to value planes that aren't the 109K.
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Awesome Lusche.
Just to prevent any possible misunderstanding, I didn't make that matrix. :old:
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No 2 separate ideas - love the Venn diagram and congratulated you for it. No sarcasm at all.
Then went off on a tangent about dweeb planes v dweeb pilots and the whole damn thing. No I'm Australian, which is sort of British only more improved. We pay for things when we go shopping, not kick the door in with 500 of our closest friends, take what we want and burn the place.
LOL, allrighty then. If I may gently remind you Australia was an English penal colony populated by lawbreaker rejects who were your ancestors.
Just sayin.
Just throwin it out there.
BTW, I've met alot of Australians, a few I have gotten to know rather well and I have never met one I didn't like. Australia would also be the first place I would move to if for some unknown reason I was leaving the U.S. I just felt like pokin' you with a sharp stick for fun knowing you would most likely just smile and roll with it, not like the French whom when poked will immediately develop a catastrophic leak, flying around the room untill they were completely deflated, laying in the corner all sad and wrinkly looking.
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We 38 drivers would like to be represented closer to the line..... any line.
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I played around with that matrix, and it's actually pretty interesting both weighted and unweighted. It largely confirms my gut instincts about a lot of planes. Clearly the Spit XVI is best in class, and even though the 109K4 hits the top in the unweighted, a lot of those categories are pretty meaningless (high alt climb rate?). Surprisingly, if you weight according to a number of the preset weighting functions (pure performance, evasiveness) the Spit XVI and 109K4 rank pretty close to one another.
I was never a particular fan of the 109K because I didn't like its high speed handling, but I always thought it was a helluva plane. It's not terribly maneuverable (only ranks 21st in that weighted category), but its very good overall for performance and elusiveness. It's great for staying alive and for killing stuff, though it's not necessarily the best furballer around.
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And this shows the problem... all attempts to get to an objective conclusion purely base on performance data will run into a dead end at some point.
Agreed, particularly when laced with some subjective input as well.
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On the contrary. I would fly in shades because of folks like yourself. I'd want to fly in peace, not have you hunting me down for trophy sport. Sorry, my money and time aren't spent to make you feel better about yourself.
I've flown possibly 5 hours in the last year on two-week accounts, not so much to knock rust off as to see the status of the game and see if I still have the desire to keep playing. So far, no desire. So sorry, you'll just have to guess how good it could have been to kill me over and over. That won't be a problem from what I can tell.
Please stop trying to turn this into a chest thumping match, this thread is plenty of fun without it.
Since you think you know me so well, ask Drex how many times I hunted him or asked to duel him (after all he is a Toon God), or even sent him a message when he returned a few months ago, then report back with your findings please. :aok To save you the trouble, the answer is 0. Like you if you ever returned, he was just another old player flying around, not really a big deal. Legends can take all the time they need to knock rust off and if they want to fight and see if they still have that loving feelin, they can PM me or another top stick in the game for a duel and see what happens. :aok
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Please stop trying to turn this into a chest thumping match, this thread is plenty of fun without it.
There' s only one person insecurely thumping his chest here, and it's not me.
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There' s only one person insecurely thumping his chest here, and it's not me.
If you say so.
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If you say so.
I do. Now about that EZ mode 109K.... :)
Hey, don't look at me! It's what the matrix says. Don't ever question the matrix.
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GRizz,
I like the ven diagram but it needs some suplimenting because it visually doesn't provide enough explanation of why the planes are where they are at. Been working with Waystin on something like this.....
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6136/6035355187_0a951b26c7_z.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6210/6035909936_1529b825d8_z.jpg)
The axis represent [so far what I think :D] are the key attributes to a planes capability. The more area the plane covers the better it is at providing the pilot with options in any given situation he may come across in the MA. The P-39 is very limiting in what choices the pilot can execute at any given moment. Whereas the SpitXVI doesn't limit the choices much at all. By the way, something tells me HTC may have performed this exersise already and the results = ENY scores. I think Deadman was talking along these lines. This skips the need to use the exact performance cuves but rather to rate the planes from 0-10 basing it on the objective data, But also to account for things you won't find in the performance tables like how violently the plane departs, and how easy it is to recover from a stall. I just call that "Stall performance". Or whether the wings balloon in a dive, by just including that in the assessment of "dive Performance" etc...
All may have a different opinion on how many axis, and what the weighting for each is, but if you all do your own, the rank order should come out very similar.
Axis where you have an advantage in your plane over the opponent, are things you focus on in your attack/defense strategy. If the area of your plane completely engulfs the other plane, then he doesn't stand a chance.
The Spit is easy mode because the pilots choices are never limitted because the plane does most things better then most other planes in most situations.
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You guys are like watching bad tennis.
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i just purchased a Hot Air Balloon off EBay, real big monster it is, I'll leave it in here so it can fill up, save's me some cash on propane. :D
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On the contrary. I would fly in shades because of folks like yourself. I'd want to fly in peace, not have you hunting me down for trophy sport. Sorry, my money and time aren't spent to make you feel better about yourself.
Hey, dont flatter yourself. As Grizz pointed out, nobody cared about Drex being around. Sounds like somebody is scared to me.
Just sayin.
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This whole thread is beyond retarded self serving BS and I didn't want to post in it but I have to say that I really like that presentation of yours, Vinkman. Of course the "values" that anyone gives to any plane's attributes are very subjective. For example, I don't think Spit16's speed should get a "9" but maybe a 7 or 8. Anyway I really like idea behind that graph.
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On the contrary. I would fly in shades because of folks like yourself. I'd want to fly in peace, not have you hunting me down for trophy sport. Sorry, my money and time aren't spent to make you feel better about yourself.
I've flown possibly 5 hours in the last year on two-week accounts, not so much to knock rust off as to see the status of the game and see if I still have the desire to keep playing. So far, no desire. So sorry, you'll just have to guess how good it could have been to kill me over and over. That won't be a problem from what I can tell.
Awesome. So this game so many of us love to play is not up to your high standards, (or at least not good enough for you to pay for like the rest of us but you're ok with having a few 2 week free trials), but you've got no problem rippin Grizz on the boards as he obviously joined in the fun. Honestly, I know what I said was harsh but I just don't understand what motivates you to grace us with your opinion on a game that isn't good enough for you to play.
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Vinkman,
Spit 9 and Brew please...
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Awesome. So this game so many of us love to play is not up to your high standards, (or at least not good enough for you to pay for like the rest of us but you're ok with having a few 2 week free trials), but you've got no problem rippin Grizz on the boards as he obviously joined in the fun. Honestly, I know what I said was harsh but I just don't understand what motivates you to grace us with your opinion on a game that isn't good enough for you to play.
I love the game, don't get me wrong. But when you play it for years and years as I did, the burning desire to log in and play just isn't there. I chatted with Drex back in November when he was mulling coming back (which he did briefly; I don't think he's flown in six months), and he was the same way pretty much. Great game, but you really have to have a burning desire to want to play it constantly. I haven't had that fire in the belly for some time now.
My opinion is my own, you're welcome to listen to it or ignore it.
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GRizz,
I like the ven diagram but it needs some suplimenting because it visually doesn't provide enough explanation of why the planes are where they are at. Been working with Waystin on something like this.....
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6136/6035355187_0a951b26c7_z.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6210/6035909936_1529b825d8_z.jpg)
The axis represent [so far what I think :D] are the key attributes to a planes capability. The more area the plane covers the better it is at providing the pilot with options in any given situation he may come across in the MA. The P-39 is very limiting in what choices the pilot can execute at any given moment. Whereas the SpitXVI doesn't limit the choices much at all. By the way, something tells me HTC may have performed this exersise already and the results = ENY scores. I think Deadman was talking along these lines. This skips the need to use the exact performance cuves but rather to rate the planes from 0-10 basing it on the objective data, But also to account for things you won't find in the performance tables like how violently the plane departs, and how easy it is to recover from a stall. I just call that "Stall performance". Or whether the wings balloon in a dive, by just including that in the assessment of "dive Performance" etc...
All may have a different opinion on how many axis, and what the weighting for each is, but if you all do your own, the rank order should come out very similar.
Axis where you have an advantage in your plane over the opponent, are things you focus on in your attack/defense strategy. If the area of your plane completely engulfs the other plane, then he doesn't stand a chance.
The Spit is easy mode because the pilots choices are never limitted because the plane does most things better then most other planes in most situations.
Yes, those are nice diagrams that do help paint the picture. Nice job. While I do feel most of the planes are accurately placed in my venn diagram, these figures help supplement validation for their locations.
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Yes, those are nice diagrams that do help paint the picture. Nice job. While I do feel most of the planes are accurately placed in my venn diagram, these figures help supplement validation for their locations.
Yeah, those are awesome. It'd be nice to have a way to juxtapose one on the other for comparison purposes, maybe with with two different colors.
Vinkman, great job!
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This whole thread is beyond retarded self serving BS and I didn't want to post in it but I have to say that I really like that presentation of yours, Vinkman. Of course the "values" that anyone gives to any plane's attributes are very subjective. For example, I don't think Spit16's speed should get a "9" but maybe a 7 or 8. Anyway I really like idea behind that graph.
Hello Widow,
What you see from Vinkman is subjective at this point as we have not actually collected/correlated the data. It is a visual representation only of what the chart would look like. From what I see they both will most likely change after true data is plugged in. By the way, I may request your help in filling in performance data for the Brewster if you are amenable to that.
:salute
Way
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Suddenly I see an area formula emerging.... then depending on area.... overall performance.
The only one which is subjective is the visibility. The rest can be pulled from known data.
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Vinkman,
Spit 9 and Brew please...
hahahah yes please do the brewster
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Axis where you have an advantage in your plane over the opponent, are things you focus on in your attack/defense strategy. If the area of your plane completely engulfs the other plane, then he doesn't stand a chance.
This is a great point that I think is missing in this discussion. Charts like this really create a great visual aid for figuring how to fly certain planes to their strengths, and they highlight performance disparities. Planes like the 109K are obviously limited in sustained turnfights against a lot of stuff, but they enjoy huge performance advantages in other areas like energy retention and climb rate. Paste one chart over another, and general strategies for flying one plane against another become clear. Use speed, or energy, or turning to counter the other plane.
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Remember folks with the muppets it's all just an online persona... or maybe it it isn't.
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Yes, those are nice diagrams that do help paint the picture. Nice job. While I do feel most of the planes are accurately placed in my venn diagram, these figures help supplement validation for their locations.
I forgot to mention the your Ven Analysis is spot on and very powerful. Nice job. :salute
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Suddenly I see an area formula emerging.... then depending on area.... overall performance.
The only one which is subjective is the visibility. The rest can be pulled from known data.
Not quite, because that again, is assuming every one of those metrics is weighted equally. And in what context do you apply corresponding weight, to a 1v1 fight in the DA or to overall MA performance and success? Each will have differently weighted metrics.
For example in the DA, the difficulty in aiming the tater is far reduced, because the fights are so close. It is easy to be a tater stud in a rolling scissor whereas the difficulty with the tater in the MA is a different story all together.
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Remember folks with the muppets it's all just an online persona... or maybe it it isn't.
:noid :noid :noid :noid :noid
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Remember folks with the muppets it's all just an online persona... or maybe it it isn't.
Once upon a time your opinion mattered here.
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Not quite, because that again, is assuming every one of those metrics is weighted equally. And in what context do you apply corresponding weight, to a 1v1 fight in the DA or to overall MA performance and success? Each will have differently weighted metrics.
I agree. Visibility matters less in a duel than in a furball, for example. I think one of the often unstated reasons that the P-51D sees so much use in the MA is because it has some of the best visibility in the game.
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I agree. Visibility matters less in a duel than in a furball, for example. I think one of the often unstated reasons that the P-51D sees so much use in the MA is because it has some of the best visibility in the game.
Indeed.
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Hello Widow,
What you see from Vinkman is subjective at this point as we have not actually collected/correlated the data. It is a visual representation only of what the chart would look like. From what I see they both will most likely change after true data is plugged in.
Very true. But some of it needs a lot of no-so-easy testing before we have that data.
By the way, I may request your help in filling in performance data for the Brewster if you are amenable to that.
Well, I'm considered too biased by the peanut gallery of the resident, ahem, "rocket scientists" anyway so I think it's best if I keep myself out of it.
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Very true. But some of it needs a lot of no-so-easy testing before we have that data.
Well, I'm considered too biased by the peanut gallery of the resident, ahem, "rocket scientists" anyway so I think it's best if I keep myself out of it.
no you're an angry troll sized self proclaimed 'Brewster scientist' unless your name is 'Brewster von Braun'? :noid
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The Brewster because someone asked....
There will be modifications to the axis, scores and weightings, as Waystin has pointed out.
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6181/6035524323_7fa07b07ee_z.jpg)
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Once upon a time your opinion mattered here.
LMAO like your opinions are any more valid... someone get a pin Grizz's head has become over inflated.
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no you're an angry troll sized self proclaimed 'Brewster scientist' unless your name is 'Brewster von Braun'? :noid
I don't really see where I've trolled about anything or made any claims of myself.
But sense you asked, when it comes to you, I wouldn't trust your cognitive skills enough to warm a microwave dinner.
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no you're an angry troll sized self proclaimed 'Brewster scientist' unless your name is 'Brewster von Braun'? :noid
:rofl :rofl
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I don't really see where I've trolled about anything or made any claims of myself.
But sense you asked, when it comes to you, I wouldn't trust your cognitive skills enough to warm a microwave dinner.
but I think I could cook the dinner on your face.... its already getting warm :rofl
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The brewster score indicates to me that Turn performance needs a higher weighting, relative to the other factors. :salute
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I don't really see where I've trolled about anything or made any claims of myself.
But sense you asked, when it comes to you, I wouldn't trust your cognitive skills enough to warm a microwave dinner.
Since
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indeed, lets :) ahem.........(http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af263/irishone920/imagesCABJGQDE.jpg)
What ??? Hate??? Far from it I'm glad this crop of AHer have such a fine cartoon pilot to aspire to emulate...lest we want toolsheders galore.
Maybe someday grizz too will be remembered in legend.
Nahhh he'd have to leave 1st. :D
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Very true. But some of it needs a lot of no-so-easy testing before we have that data.
Well, I'm considered too biased by the peanut gallery of the resident, ahem, "rocket scientists" anyway so I think it's best if I keep myself out of it.
The testing and gathering I am willing to do. Consider it my inner geek needing a good workout. I would appreciate the help from you when the time comes, I could care less about opinions people have of folks here on the BBS. Very few true Brewster pilots out there and you are one, so a valid point of reference as far as performance capabilities of the actual aircraft.
:salute
Way
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What ??? Hate??? Far from it I'm glad this crop of AHer have such a fine cartoon pilot to aspire to emulate...lest we want toolsheders galore.
Maybe someday grizz too will be remembered in legend.
I heard you wanted to emulate vDallas, c'on bronk don't be shy, we all have aspirations.
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I always enjoy beating up on past legends in the DA though. :banana:
Because you couldn't beat them in their prime?
ack-ack
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I heard you wanted to emulate vDallas, c'on bronk don't be shy, we all have aspirations.
Are you serious?...I could never be that good.
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Why do people compare a fighter with a buff interceptor?
No idea. Maybe for the same reason B-38 sticks like to think they're in fighter. :D
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No idea. Maybe for the same reason B-38 sticks like to think they're in fighter. :D
We're in TWO fighters. :furious
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Are you serious?...I could never be that good.
set your sights high young padawan and you shall be surprised what one can achieve.
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No idea. Maybe for the same reason B-38 sticks like to think they're in fighter. :D
its a precision instrument of speed and aerodynamics. :D
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its a precision instrument of speed and aromatics . :D
Especially after some good chilli.
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(http://icons.iconseeker.com/png/256/curtains/popcorn-2.png) (http://www.clipartoday.com/_thumbs/020/StPatricksDay/beer_color_tns.png)
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Because you couldn't beat them in their prime?
ack-ack
I could not beat them in their prime the same reason they cannot beat me in my prime, I was not playing the game.
Gotta love how the dinosaurs defend the other dinosaurs though. It is very admirable. :lol
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Emergency services need to taken some notes on the Muppets' BBS response time. :eek:
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AKAK's been here since dirt, I think he's entitled to defend what he wants. He's also probably the top P-38 stick, if not, hes at least in the top 5. Like calls to like, I guess that applies to cartoon legends as well.
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I could not beat them in their prime the same reason they cannot beat me in my prime, I was not playing the game.
And that's kind of why it's silly to even bring this kind of stuff up. I'm sure you're an excellent stick, Grizz, and you'd probably do just fine against any of the "legends" in their prime. The anonymous vet you quoted wasn't actually too far off the mark... there weren't one or two overly dominant players back when I was playing. There were a number of players who could win or lose on any given day against each other. The differences in skill level were so minor that luck became more of a determining factor in who won those duels than anything else.
I think there are two sides to this coin. You tend to underestimate how good those vets were when they played at their best, and the flip side of that is that people tend to believe that the kind of skill level that old "legends" achieved is somehow unobtainable. Far from it, and it's entirely reasonable to think that you're as good as any of the best players who flew. I don't know, as I've never flown against you to my knowledge.
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a thread with spixteen in the title, then it goes on for 30 pages... :headscratch:
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I could not beat them in their prime the same reason they cannot beat me in my prime, I was not playing the game.
Gotta love how the dinosaurs defend the other dinosaurs though. It is very admirable. :lol
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/leah.baconfile.com/zing.jpg)
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Once upon a time your opinion mattered here.
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/leah.baconfile.com/zing.jpg)
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And that's kind of why it's silly to even bring this kind of stuff up.
I agree. If I brought it up it was unintentional but I'm fairly certain Bronk did for some unknown reason.
I think there are two sides to this coin. You tend to underestimate how good those vets were when they played at their best, and the flip side of that is that people tend to believe that the kind of skill level that old "legends" achieved is somehow unobtainable. Far from it, and it's entirely reasonable to think that you're as good as any of the best players who flew. I don't know, as I've never flown against you to my knowledge.
I do not underestimate old legends, I think they would be top sticks in today's game if they could motivate themselves to knock the rust off. But TBH, I don't think even you in your prime could live up to the legend which has been built since you have quit. I know you were easily one of the top players back when you played, but some of the fables I have heard by your biggest ankle humpers on here are equivalent to King Arthur pulling his magical sword out of the stone.
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What is dweeb...asked and answered thanks. The original intent of this thread was primarily pointed at the "uber" spit. Followed closely by the term "Dweeb" not to be forgotten and interjected often was a certain "lack of respect" for anyone who flies them <Points at charts>.
Here is my definition of "dweeb" as I see it most commonly used;
Person: Anyone who attempts to inflate their abilities artificially; either by a perceived (real or not) better plane or tank.
Plane/Tank: Any ride perceived (real or not) as having qualities that enhance the players ability and thus allowing a kill where one would not normally prevail.
Now for my next definition; <Easy Mode>
Any plane that exhibits qualities that are forgiving and thus allow the pilot to survive an unexpected result of control input without prolonged training to overcome the result.
Now with my definition I can easily say that the Spitfire is indeed an Easy Mode plane-set. Of course I framed my definition to fit my discription. But even so I agree with several that it indeed is easy.
It has been argued by some that by flying this plane one should expect a certain lack of respect from those who see themselves as important enough to grant it; fair enough. Now for the caveat; anyone who really cares about earning someone's respect will forever have a difficult time having fun at at "Game" because it is by definition not real and thus respect is irrelevant.
Anyone with eyes can see I fly the spit, admittedly so. Anyone who cares to look can see that my K/D rate in the spit is probably also the lowest of the ones I do fly. This is where I argue the "Uber" term as it relates to the spit. While I do see it as "easy" I don't see it as "uber" in any category or on the whole. The genius of the spit design was that it was very forgiving and as a result allowed Britain (and other nations who used it) to succeed in putting pilots with less experience and flight time against a country with exceedingly more of just about everything. This is why I would argue that the plane was an excellent defensive fighter but was lacking in offensive capability. On offense I would give that to the later American birds like the 47, 38, 51, and the earlier German models like the 190 and 109. It's short range, lack of ordinance capability, inadequate cannon load, and overall speed (especially at altitude except the XIV) was a drawback. I don't see the spit as uber but merely forgiving. As compared to my K/D rate in say the 262 or the F4's, the spit is way down there on the uber charts.
I said all that to say this: If the spit isn't uber (as I define it), and my K/D rate with the 262 and F4's is 10 times or more better, and if I lack the ahem....respect of all those important to bestow it upon us lowly spit drivers, why in the world would I fly it? Certainly it isn't because I care deeply about my score or ranking, I would sit my arse in the Corsair and/or 262 and enjoy a 15 to 1 K/D or better and gloat. It certainly isn't because I care about the respect, I don't. So,,,,,,,why?
Here is what you left out. The spit is fun; period because it fits how I like to play. I don't want to spend 20 minutes getting the alt to get to the fight, get some kills, then make my way to land and pat myself on the back with my uber k/d. I prefer to get into the fight, the lower the better, and I prefer to fight 2 v 1's or more just to see what happens. I often hear Bruv yell as I dive into the fray, Jek...don't go down there! But that is how I like to fight, in the fray, see what may. I personally love hitting a tower seeing red all around and hopping into a spit to get into trouble. The spit does shine in this category, it allows me to perform in an arena where speed and escape aren't important. I don't mind 1 v 1's either, against better planes and experienced drivers I usually don't succeed. But if i cared would I still be in the 16?
Easy mode; yes. Uber; no, but that is my opinion and worth what you pay for it. If you feel you must pull the "respect" carpet out from under the 16 drivers feet feel free, I could care less. I'm in it to have fun and my K/D reflects that. To anyone who does play to have fun and allows others to do the same, I certainly can respect that!
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Easy mode; yes. Uber; no, but that is my opinion and worth what you pay for it. If you feel you must pull the "respect" carpet out from under the 16 drivers feet feel free, I could care less. I'm in it to have fun and my K/D reflects that. To anyone who does play to have fun and allows others to do the same, I certainly can respect that!
This actually is a great distinction and I completely agree. The Spit16 is easy mode but is not uber. Yes, I agree. Inversely, I think the Bf109K4 is not easy mode, yet is uber in the right hands.
I'm getting an idea for a new chart: "Plane Uberness When Fully Utilized By Pilot" :O
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This actually is a great distinction and I completely agree. The Spit16 is easy mode but is not uber. Yes, I agree. Inversely, I think the Bf109K4 is not easy mode, yet is uber in the right hands.
I'm getting an idea for a new chart: "Plane Uberness When Fully Utilized By Pilot" :O
There are some in there who will absolutely shine in that category, and I think the K4 will be at the top. Properly used it is definitely very very lethal! :aok
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Your flying style sounds a lot like how I enjoy flying the 109K4. Arguably its more fun than flying the spitfire in the same fashion because it takes a greater amount of skill to overcome the advantages many enemies will have. When I make a kill, I know I've earned it, and that I've fought hard for it.
Personally I could care less about the back patting and "wtg"'s. Whats fun for me is finding a good opponent, one who makes you sweat till you see his plane go down, and then for a few seconds afterwards too.
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These charts are fine and all but I prefer the BT Charting method.
BIRD
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q96/Shuff_photos/chart-1.png)
Terd
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I made a solemn vow to get this thread to 30 pages today, for Soulyss. Everything after this point is just gravy. :banana:
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Lol, british roundels on the wings. good choice.
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Arguably its more fun than flying the spitfire in the same fashion because it takes a greater amount of skill to overcome the advantages many enemies will have.
Arguably fun is defined in the eyes of the individual, thus both you and I are correct.
When I make a kill, I know I've earned it, and that I've fought hard for it.
Inversely anyone who flies a spit doesn't feel the same way? Against anyone who is any good and I prevail, I earned it. Against anyone who is less experienced or skilled; well I had fun.
A gutsy pilot once challenged Chuck Yeager telling him that it was the plane that would define the fight. Chuck Yeager argued it was the pilot and his ability that defined the fight and put the gutsy pilot to the challenge. The gutsy pilot, after losing the challenge, apologized to Chuck Yeager and proclaimed "you are correct sir, and I was wrong"
<31 pages and expanding!>
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Arguably fun is defined in the eyes of the individual, thus both you and I are correct.
Inversely anyone who flies a spit doesn't feel the same way? Against anyone who is any good and I prevail, I earned it. Against anyone who is less experienced or skilled; well I had fun.
A gutsy pilot once challenged Chuck Yeager telling him that it was the plane that would define the fight. Chuck Yeager argued it was the pilot and his ability that defined the fight and put the gutsy pilot to the challenge. The gutsy pilot, after losing the challenge, apologized to Chuck Yeager and proclaimed "you are correct sir, and I was wrong"
Going back here but again it's the plane and the pilot. If Pilot A is marginally less skilled than Pilot B yet has a marginally better aircraft it will be a marginally close fight. If Pilot A is much worse than Pilot B yet has a much better aircraft it will be close. If Pilot A and Pilot B are equal and Pilot B has a better aircraft, Pilot B will have the edge. It's not black and white at all.
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In the digital world I would say your correct, in the real world I would say Chuck Yeager was correct.
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In the digital world I would say your correct, in the real world I would say Chuck Yeager was correct.
In the real world Chuck was more correct. Say in the digital world it's 50/50 Plane & Pilot. Perhaps in the real world it was 75% Pilot 25% plane. Regardless, plane is still in the equation.
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I'm not saying he doesn't feel he earned his kill, I'm saying I don't feel he earned the whole kill, the plane gets half the credit.
I prefer to push myself. If I'm in an spit, and kill a 190 or 109 from a possion of advantage, what did I accomplish? not much. If I'm in the 190 or 109, and kill the spit from a possition of disadvantage, then I know I really and truely earned that kill.
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Not sure I'm quite ready to accept Chuck Yeager was wrong, but I've been wrong before. :D
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Not sure I'm quite ready to accept Chuck Yeager was wrong, but I've been wrong before. :D
I doubt he was wrong, he was likely just making a point, which he did beautifully.
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In the real world Chuck was more correct. Say in the digital world it's 50/50 Plane & Pilot. Perhaps in the real world it was 75% Pilot 25% plane. Regardless, plane is still in the equation.
I think anyone who claims that the plane has no bearing is kidding himself. Clearly it has to matter to some extent.
Here's (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,93074.0.html) a good old-timey thread concerning this exact issue. Lots of names I recognize in there too.
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I'm not saying he doesn't feel he earned his kill, I'm saying I don't feel he earned the whole kill, the plane gets half the credit.
I prefer to push myself. If I'm in an spit, and kill a 190 or 109 from a possion of advantage, what did I accomplish? not much. If I'm in the 190 or 109, and kill the spit from a possition of disadvantage, then I know I really and truely earned that kill.
And that is where how we like to play the game comes into play. I prefer to have fun, as I define it. I prefer to push myself in whatever I fly, be it the 16, the F4, the 262, whatever. But I also like to have fun regardless. You like to have fun by flying what you like; as you should. To interject rather someone earned it or not is totally subjective and in a game, irrelevant; except to the individual. Most of us who have lived a few years, I don't think really care either way if someone does or doesn't think we've earned it.
Now to question: If your in a 109 or 190 and you come up against a spit with advantage, do you expect to lose? If you lose it is the plane, if you win it is the pilot? Doesn't that sound a bit defeatist? Just asking.
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To push one's self would require more pilot less plane?
Or do you have to look in a mirror and press firmly?
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Now to throw a monkey wrench into the equation; how much does the setup come into play?
Wal Mart stick vs. Thrustmaster, mouse vs IR tracker, 2 button vs 5 button mouse, 17' vs 19" screen, and on and on. Can we assume that better equipment and setup can add or detract from the win/lose column?
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Now to throw a monkey wrench into the equation; how much does the setup come into play?
Wal Mart stick vs. Thrustmaster, mouse vs IR tracker, 2 button vs 5 button mouse, 17' vs 19" screen, and on and on. Can we assume that better equipment and setup can add or detract from the win/lose column?
It helps but only if you compare a bad equipment to average and above. If your stick does not spike and provides smooth movement and has enough buttons for views, you should be OK
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Now to throw a monkey wrench into the equation; how much does the setup come into play?
Wal Mart stick vs. Thrustmaster, mouse vs IR tracker, 2 button vs 5 button mouse, 17' vs 19" screen, and on and on. Can we assume that better equipment and setup can add or detract from the win/lose column?
I'd have to say not much.
My setup:
(http://www.themoneytimes.com/files/HP-Envy-17-3D.jpg)
(http://www.fstube.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/aviatorxb11.jpg)
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Here's the thing everyone needs to remember... Every aircraft has set of conditions or circumstances where its performance is maximized. As you move away from that ideal set of conditions, performance degrades. It doesn't matter if we are talking about the P-40B, La-7, 109K4 or the Spit16. You cannot easily chart this. Moreover, you have to assume that pilot skills are always equal or any conclusions drawn will be faulty.
After being out of the game for about a year and a half, I felt like I want to play again. However, I didn't want to deal with the things I dealt with every day as a long-time Trainer. I wanted to enjoy myself without any expectations. After being back fore perhaps a week, events led me to join Sunbat in the DA. We were both flying shade accounts. We identified ourselves and had a laugh. I really needed a good workout, because I could see how my skills had deteriorated. Sunbat suggested we fly aircraft that covered the gamut from turn fighters, through the late-war beasts. He suggested the 190s and the K4. Even when I was flying daily, it was a rare event if I flew a 109K4. I preferred the G2. Still, I was in agreement with Sunbat that flying "uncomfortable" fighters was better for sharpening dull skills. I had a blast. It took a few duels to begin to get traction, but lose or win, it was great to be hunting for the edge again. Sunbat was generous and kind (I'm sure he'll hate for me to say that on the BBS :eek:). Now, four months later, I feel as if I'm at least back at the level I was at when I took the break. That's largely the result of having the opportunity to fight against some of this generation's best sticks. You'll never rise above the level of the competition you select, so if you want to improve, go find the best players and learn by doing.
That hasn't changed. I've been playing for about 10 years (including the break period). A new generation comes in about every two or three years. As a noob, I had to contend with the likes of Lev and Drex. They were among the best of their generation, as good as the current crew. I spent many hours dueling with Nomak, Urchin, Dedalos and dozens whose names I forget. I learned, and polished my skills. Each generation has its outstanding pilots. Some have little tricks they use in their favorite ride (but these generally only work once, if at all). The fact is that very little separates the top tier sticks, regardless of generation. It usually comes down to who makes the first error. Trust me on this, I've seen them all at one point or another.
That's one advantage of dueling... You know exactly what you are dealing with. In contrast, the MA provides for the unexpected from time to time. Last tour, I encountered a P-51 will flying a P-38. I made a lazy reverse, expecting the guy to either run or do something dumb. Well, I was more than wrong. It was Banshee5, an old dueling partner from a few years ago. He's very good 1v1, and I found myself at an immediate disadvantage. A seemingly minor snap shot resulted in a pilot wound and it was downhill from there. That was a not-so-gentle reminder not to take any enemy fighter lightly.
I think that it's important to respect every generation of player, from noobs to top tier. If for no other reason, that like gunfighters, sooner or later you'll run across someone, who on that day, was simply better.
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...
{thread hijack}
I don't think I have ever dueled you, but I would like to. PM me sometime.
{/thread hijack}
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Now to throw a monkey wrench into the equation; how much does the setup come into play?
Wal Mart stick vs. Thrustmaster, mouse vs IR tracker, 2 button vs 5 button mouse, 17' vs 19" screen, and on and on. Can we assume that better equipment and setup can add or detract from the win/lose column?
We can assume that, because it does make a difference.
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Well put Widewing, thanks (to the plane reply) :rofl
:aok
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{thread hijack}
I don't think I have ever dueled you, but I would like to. PM me sometime.
{/thread hijack}
I'm sure it would be great fun. I'll PM you over the weekend.
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I'm sure it would be great fun. I'll PM you over the weekend.
great, looking forward to it :aok
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great, looking forward to it :aok
Traitor
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Traitor
wha?
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wha?
Gotcha
BTW, welcome back WW
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It usually comes down to who makes the first error. Trust me on this, I've seen them all at one point or another.
QFT
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Your flying style sounds a lot like how I enjoy flying the 109K4. Arguably its more fun than flying the spitfire in the same fashion because it takes a greater amount of skill to overcome the advantages many enemies will have. When I make a kill, I know I've earned it, and that I've fought hard for it.
On the flip side, I think the Spit's more fun to fly because the plane allows me to use any and all ACM that I want to at (almost) any given time. With a K4, P51, or P47 etc. you just don't have the capability to do certain maneuvers.
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Gotcha
BTW, welcome back WW
Thanks Bud... <S>
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Now to question: If your in a 109 or 190 and you come up against a spit with advantage, do you expect to lose? If you lose it is the plane, if you win it is the pilot? Doesn't that sound a bit defeatist? Just asking.
Depends on the size of the advantage, the possition he is attacking from, and what he does imediatly after that first pass. If he makes a poor move, or blows a lot of E pulling up from a dive, then I assume I'm going to win. If he climbs back up or makes another move that maintains his E and possition relative to me, then I assume I'm going to have one hell of a fight with no clear cut winner.
As to the plane or pilot, that depends. If during the fight, he shows that hes a good pilot, I assume its a 25/75 mix. If he proved competent, but not outstanding, I assume its a mix closer to 50/50. If he shows an overall lack of ACM and manages to beat me, then I assume I'm having an off day, make a disparaging comment about spits on squad channel and let an unnamed squadie's rant about spits salve my ego.
without false modesty, I know I'm a pretty good pilot; not outstanding, but good. I'm confident enough in my skills to know that odds are the same pilot couldn't have beaten me were the possitions reversed.
And Shuffler, yes pushing yourself (in my oppinion) involves more pilot, less plane.
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On the flip side, I think the Spit's more fun to fly because the plane allows me to use any and all ACM that I want to at (almost) any given time. With a K4, P51, or P47 etc. you just don't have the capability to do certain maneuvers.
I'll take that challenge, I bet I can match every ACM you do in a spit in a K4. Out maneuvering a spit though is a different story.
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You guys are all legends. I spend my days and nights dreaming of someday being as good as the legends. Of course then I remind myself it really doesn't matter :)
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You guys are all legends. I spend my days and nights dreaming of someday being as good as the legends. Of course then I remind myself it really doesn't matter :)
Hey Corky, your ambivolent attitude towards scores, death in AH and the war is disrespectfull and not required in this discussion! Either tow the line or go sit down!
:t
:salute
JUGgler :neener:
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Hey Corky, your ambivolent attitude towards scores, death in AH and the war is disrespectfull and not required in this discussion! Either tow the line or go sit down!
:salute
JUGgler :neener:
Hey JUG....what say you? Brew EZmode or not? I loved your old sig...remember it? :rofl :rofl :bolt:
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Hey JUG....what say you? Brew EZmode or not? I loved your old sig...remember it? :rofl :rofl :bolt:
If you cant survive a 1v5 while in a Brew for 5 minutes, then you sux.
I find the Brew to be very very easy, overmodeled? I have no idea. I will say this though, many folks think that the Finns were so successful because of the Brew and the superior Finn pilots. I would say the Finns were successful cause Russia had cornered the market on "suckage" at that time. Finns and their Brews against western airforces or even the Japanese for that matter would have been little more than a speed bump!
2 things to add:
"I will fly a brew after I have a stroke as the use of both arms is not required"
"Any brew over 2K is just plain glutinous"
Oh and I think europeans are gross :neener:
JUGgler
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I flew a twit16 last night, I didn't like the way the tiara made my scalp itch!
JUGgler
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I flew a twit16 last night, I didn't like the way the tiara made my scalp itch!
JUGgler
Thank you...how did the skirt I sent fit you? It looks super in the sissyteen and I bet it looked fabulicious with that tiara.
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I landed kills in a spitfail last tour, and had to imedialy go take a shower. I was debating wether or not to chagne my name you couldn't trace the spit kills back to me.
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I landed kills in a spitfail last tour, and had to imedialy go take a shower. I was debating wether or not to chagne my name you couldn't trace the spit kills back to me.
Ok...good to know.
Is the Brewster EZ mode?
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Hell yes its EZ mode.
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Isn't it Eny 30? I mean obviously ENy isn't completely accurate but 30 obviously tells HTC's opinion of it.
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ENY isn't the best way to gauge power or easy mode status. Per ENY, the P-51D is easier than the Spitfire Mk VIII, and its stats would support that claim too, but a lot of people in this thread would instinctively disagree with that.
As one American who switched from Spit VIIIs to P-51s put it, roughly "The P-51 won't do what the Spitfire with do, but it will do it over Berlin."
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Thank you...how did the skirt I sent fit you? It looks super in the sissyteen and I bet it looked fabulicious with that tiara.
The skirt was fine, but the thong chafed something awefull.
JUGgler
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Isn't it Eny 30? I mean obviously ENy isn't completely accurate but 30 obviously tells HTC's opinion of it.
Spit 9 is a 20! So? Is this an ENY chart or something real? :neener:
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The skirt was fine, but the thong chafed something awefull.
JUGgler
Dood...the thong made the entire ensemble! You can keep it
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Isn't it Eny 30? I mean obviously ENy isn't completely accurate but 30 obviously tells HTC's opinion of it.
HTC also had a firefly that was tougher to kill than an M4(76) perked at 4.
The Fw190A5 is also at ENY 25 with a 109G2 at ENY 30. Sure the A5 is a bit faster, but the G2 is MUCH more maneuverable. Seems a little incongruous.
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Oh and I think europeans are gross :neener:
Pretty much sums you up.
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One thing I notice, and I don't entirely agree with, is that most people who complain about such and such aircraft being easy mode fly fast fighters and completely dismiss speed as being an easy mode attribute compared to turning. I strongly disagree with that and rate speed equally with turning ability, and for AH purposes both below acceleration/climb ability.
A guy in an Fw190D-9 vs a guy in a B239 will both be able to make the other's task difficult or almost impossible simply by flying to the strengths of their airplane. The B239 may turn well, but if the Fw190D-9 flies to its strength, the B239 will never get a shot on it just as the turning ability of the B239 will make the Fw190D-9's task of getting a shot difficult as well.
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The difference is that faster, less manuverable aircraft need a more skilled pilot. Most newbs don't have the skill and intimate familarity with the guns to succesfully make slashing passes, and BnZ their opponents, which is what the plane excels at.
The Fw190D-9 and 109K-4 both take a more advanced style of fighting to be succesfull. The same is true for a lot of speed demons. Thats why I wouldn't classify most of them as EZ mode.
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One thing I notice, and I don't entirely agree with, is that most people who complain about such and such aircraft being easy mode fly fast fighters and completely dismiss speed as being an easy mode attribute compared to turning. I strongly disagree with that and rate speed equally with turning ability, and for AH purposes both below acceleration/climb ability.
A guy in an Fw190D-9 vs a guy in a B239 will both be able to make the other's task difficult or almost impossible simply by flying to the strengths of their airplane. The B239 may turn well, but if the Fw190D-9 flies to its strength, the B239 will never get a shot on it just as the turning ability of the B239 will make the Fw190D-9's task of getting a shot difficult as well.
From my experience, if the brewster pilot is good, it often results in a stale-mate, as the 190 struggles to get an angle to place a shot, and the brewster struggles to get a shot in time (after a reversal etc..). Sometimes I have seen pilots in brewsters make amazing shots from 600+ out but that is as much about the pilots as it is about the guns.
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Mensa's random interjection: Of the people I've personally fought in this thread Bighorn is the best, I am pretty sure I have never one a legitimate duel against him unless he was flying at 4% his skill level so as to give me a shot. Thus I will respect his opinion the most.
Also, I find Grizz's diagram decent.
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From my experience, if the brewster pilot is good, it often results in a stale-mate, as the 190 struggles to get an angle to place a shot, and the brewster struggles to get a shot in time (after a reversal etc..). Sometimes I have seen pilots in brewsters make amazing shots from 600+ out but that is as much about the pilots as it is about the guns.
That is my point. The speed of the Fw190D-9 means that with only slight skill he can make pass after pass without being exposed to return fight. Now, being of slight skill his passes will likely result in nothing, but I don't find his use of speed any more difficult than I find the B239 driver's use of turning.
Frankly, having done both, using turning, rolling and sliding to avoid being hit by the faster plane takes a lot more skill and SA than just using speed to avoid being hit by the slow plane does.
Learning to use the fast plane's attributes offensively so as to set up successful kill shots is harder than learning to use a slower, turny plane to set up kill shots on targets with less E than it has.
Defensively, speed is easier, offensively, turning is easier. The qualifications for each of those is that you speed becomes harder defensively when a turny plane converts altitude to speed to overtake the faster plane and that using turning ability to set up offensive attacks is harder if the target does not consent to slow down.
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Pretty much sums you up.
HAHA! sensative!
JUGgler
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One thing I notice, and I don't entirely agree with, is that most people who complain about such and such aircraft being easy mode fly fast fighters and completely dismiss speed as being an easy mode attribute compared to turning. I strongly disagree with that and rate speed equally with turning ability, and for AH purposes both below acceleration/climb ability.
A guy in an Fw190D-9 vs a guy in a B239 will both be able to make the other's task difficult or almost impossible simply by flying to the strengths of their airplane. The B239 may turn well, but if the Fw190D-9 flies to its strength, the B239 will never get a shot on it just as the turning ability of the B239 will make the Fw190D-9's task of getting a shot difficult as well.
And that my friend, is one of the most glaringly apparent EZ mode characteristics of the Brew. In a D9, you would have stalled other planes out with relentless passes and by maintaining your E advantage by forcing them to keep their nose on you...but the Brew still flies on my friend since it has the stall speed of a Right Whale.
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Mensa's random interjection: Of the people I've personally fought in this thread Bighorn is the best, I am pretty sure I have never one a legitimate duel against him unless he was flying at 4% his skill level so as to give me a shot. Thus I will respect his opinion the most.
Also, I find Grizz's diagram decent.
wow....excellent feedback.
Now, is the Brew EZ mode or not?
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HAHA! sensative!
Not at all, just stating a fact. When it comes to air warfare between Finland and Soviet Union, I think I wouldn't come to hear your presentation about the subject.
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And that my friend, is one of the most glaringly apparent EZ mode characteristics of the Brew. In a D9, you would have stalled other planes out with relentless passes and by maintaining your E advantage by forcing them to keep their nose on you...but the Brew still flies on my friend since it has the stall speed of a Right Whale.
Dunno. I suspect a Right Whale has a pretty high stall speed. With its shape it might be a lifting body form, but I bet you need it going a couple thousand miles an hour to maintain level flight. :p
More seriously, I am not sure as I haven't fought in or against the B239 much, but it doesn't seem like it would be hard to bleed its E out and then kill it from my test flights in it. Sure, a skilled pilot could make better use of its evasive capability, but that involves the word "skilled" which it should not if it is "easy mode".
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wow....excellent feedback.
Now, is the Brew EZ mode or not?
In all honesty, it's become a ridiculous discussion. In the overall scheme of things I'm glad we have it in our cartoon fighter pilot world. I don't fly them, but I sure don't mind that other folks do. If I'm dumb enough to try and turn with a Brewster, it's my own fault. That applies to any number of better turning birds then my 38G. But as I don't really die, I get to try again. And if I learn something in the process about getting more out of my 38G, good for me.
The entire EZ-mode discussion is pointless, other then it seems to help folks feel better about their cartoon pilot skills if they don't fly a cartoon bird that in their minds is easier to get kills in.
Who the heck cares? Flying a cartoon Spit XVI or a K4 still isn't gonna get you laid regardless of how easy or how tough you think they are to fly :aok
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wow....excellent feedback.
Now, is the Brew EZ mode or not?
I'm not sure exactly, I haven't really flown the plane enough to reliably comment. I don't really care what people fly as long as they aren't timid to the point they are no longer using their plane's strengths but are instead just being cartoon 'cowardly'.
I'm honestly not sure what separates the 38 from the 'EZ' mode section other than that it is a large target and can be cumbersome at times. But other than that it seems to me it retains E fairly well, isn't a terrible turner, and can surely take a beating. Also it has a fantastic weapons platform.
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In all honesty, it's become a ridiculous discussion. In the overall scheme of things I'm glad we have it in our cartoon fighter pilot world. I don't fly them, but I sure don't mind that other folks do. If I'm dumb enough to try and turn with a Brewster, it's my own fault. That applies to any number of better turning birds then my 38G. But as I don't really die, I get to try again. And if I learn something in the process about getting more out of my 38G, good for me.
The entire EZ-mode discussion is pointless, other then it seems to help folks feel better about their cartoon pilot skills if they don't fly a cartoon bird that in their minds is easier to get kills in.
Who the heck cares? Flying a cartoon Spit XVI or a K4 still isn't gonna get you laid regardless of how easy or how tough you think they are to fly :aok
Grizz's chart cares...and I am all about accuracy. I guess JUGgler said it best...now I just have to get Grizz to come around to the fact. Remember...we aren't talking about anything other than than its ease of flight and ease of fight. Seems everyone wants to get into the flight model or how to defend against it....how easy is it to fly??? EZMODE OR NOT?
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When I'm in it, no cartoon airplane is EZ-mode :aok
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how easy is it to fly??? EZMODE OR NOT?
Only planes in AH that might make anything other than pure easy mode by that definition are the Bf109K-4, Spitfire Mk XIV and Seafire Mk II (I have a hell of a time landing that thing on carriers).
All the others are very easy to fly.
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Oh and I think europeans are gross :neener:
JUGgler
What's your heritage JUGgler?
Native American Indian, Irish, Italian, German, English, African or South American decent... Venusian?
I'm just trying to understand your elitism and bigotry.
:devil
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Its the pilot not the plane..
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Its the pilot not the plane..
And that is why fighter wings of air forces all around the world still operate licence-built Fokker Eindeckers...
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And that is why fighter wings of air forces all around the world still operate licence-built Fokker Eindeckers...
What? You lost me at and dumb that down a little
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<sigh>
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In all honesty, it's become a ridiculous discussion. In the overall scheme of things I'm glad we have it in our cartoon fighter pilot world. I don't fly them, but I sure don't mind that other folks do. If I'm dumb enough to try and turn with a Brewster, it's my own fault. That applies to any number of better turning birds then my 38G. But as I don't really die, I get to try again. And if I learn something in the process about getting more out of my 38G, good for me.
The entire EZ-mode discussion is pointless, other then it seems to help folks feel better about their cartoon pilot skills if they don't fly a cartoon bird that in their minds is easier to get kills in.
Who the heck cares? Flying a cartoon Spit XVI or a K4 still isn't gonna get you laid regardless of how easy or how tough you think they are to fly :aok
:aok
The primary point is chest thumping. I.E., I can make myself feel better by trying to make someone else feel worse about themselves. Skirts, dweebs, not get caught dead, and all. Anyone who truly lets any of this make themselves feel one iota smaller because of anything they do in a cartoon game has simply given in to cyber bullying. If you aren't having fun, your wasting your money. If you need the game to challenge yourself, your wasting your life.
Me, I'll jump out of a Goon (real one), over St. Mere Eglise (Thats in France), pack my chute (a real one), get on the game and fly my spit. Call me what you will because I promise you I challenged myself, and I had a blast! (oh, and I played a game as well!)
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<sigh>
+1
(I'm agreeing with Wmaker, strange times)
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+1
(I'm agreeing with Wmaker, strange times)
Sorry, only one sigh per topic thread, maybe try one of these: draw in, exhale, expire, fan, gasp, gulp, inhale, insufflate, open the floodgates, pant, puff, respire, scent, sigh , sniff, snore, snort, use lungs, wheeze.
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What? You lost me at and dumb that down a little
Allow me to explain,
Nevermind, it's Saturday night and I'm drunk.
<sigh>
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Allow me to explain,
Nevermind, it's Saturday night and I'm drunk.
<sigh>
Good to see that people are willing to help.
It's more than the pilot. Saburo Sakai, for example, admits that on at least two occasions he faced pilots who were his equal or superior, but who he shot down because they were flying inferior planes. Same in the game. Experience counts for a lot, but in the end you are limited (or enabled) by your ride.
- oldman (hope that was less of a riddle)
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What's your heritage JUGgler?
Native American Indian, Irish, Italian, German, English, African or South American decent... Venusian?
I'm just trying to understand your elitism and bigotry.
:devil
It is solely based on American bravado! And has no basis in fact! although sometimes wmaker makes me want to puke! So I blame her!
:neener:
JUGgler
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Not at all, just stating a fact. When it comes to air warfare between Finland and Soviet Union, I think I wouldn't come to hear your presentation about the subject.
So I would say we are both biased, Hmm at least I can admit it! :ahand
"When I have a stroke I'll fly the brewster as 2 hands are not required"!
JUGgler
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:rolleyes: some of you guys really do need to shut the computer off and go outside and play.
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Mensa's random interjection: Of the people I've personally fought in this thread Bighorn is the best, I am pretty sure I have never one a legitimate duel against him unless he was flying at 4% his skill level so as to give me a shot. Thus I will respect his opinion the most.
Also, I find Grizz's diagram decent.
Along those same lines...
I got to see wldthing, levi ang bighorn take turns dueling about 6 years ago. It's still the most amazing flying I've seen.
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At the risk of further confusing Leviathn, I will take my Plane Classifications a step further. My list is based on the planes performance and how I see it utilized by the vast majority of the player base in the game. There are exceptions however, based on flying style. For example, if you turn a Fw190A8 like KillnU, it goes from a borderline EZ mode B&Z aircraft, to an extremely difficult Hybrid.
(http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo237/grizz441/ez-2-1.png)
Colors:
Yellow: IrishOne in the 190A5. His ability and persistence to turn it and push the envelope push the A5 into the Hybrid Category very close to the P38's class.
Blue: BigR in the P51D. Same explanation. He pushes the envelope and uses it for both B&Z and close range and slow speed rolling scissor getting everything out of the P51. Quite a large jump from the normal deviation of P51D performance.
Pink: The timid noob in an La7. He refuses to do anything with the La7 other than run. He does not understand its capability as a fighter. As result he turns the La7 into a one dimensional B&Z fighter down with the P51D and Tempest. Unfortunately for him, he doesn't have the fuel to get many kills doing this.
Green: Ink in the Ki84. While it is more difficult to push an already decent turning aircraft into non ez mode territory, INK manages to do it. He neglects the Ki84's ability's in the vertical because it is beneath him as a warrior to not be in the thick of things turning with as many as he can. As result of this consistent style to the Ki84, he pushes the aircraft out of the Hybrid zone into Turny Bird Zone and also out of the EZ mode zone.
So just because you fly an EZ mode plane, there is hope for a slight adjustment based on how you fly. And just because you fly a non EZ mode plane, you might in fact be shifted into the EZ mode zone by flying it timidly in a purely one dimensional sense, like in our example with the Pink La7 Newbie.
EDIT: After a moment of reflection and a bribe from Shane that turned out to not pan out, I am slightly modifying the La7's initial placement to right on the edge of EZ mode in the Hybrid section. A minor shift, but it kind of irks me that it is not closer to that line.
There will be one more revision to my venn diagram before it is set in stone and made official for the end of toon time, so if there are any other inconsistencies that you see let me know with your reasoning and I may make some minor adjustments. Thank you, and Godspeed.
(http://sketchler.com/images/riker.jpg)
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(http://sketchler.com/images/riker.jpg)
Is it sad that I know what TNG episode this picture is from?
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JUST LET IT DIE :furious!
(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080202231027/uncyclopedia/images/archive/1/11/20080202231407!Beating-a-dead-horse.gif)
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Is it sad that I know what TNG episode this picture is from?
Sad, no. A sign that there's still hope, yes. (I've been actually rewatching Voyager on Netflix recently. Ahhh, Jeri Ryan, giggity.)
JUST LET IT DIE :furious!
(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080202231027/uncyclopedia/images/archive/1/11/20080202231407!Beating-a-dead-horse.gif)
(http://i924.photobucket.com/albums/ad87/Zhyd/DoubleFacepalmRickerPicard.jpg)
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Sad, no. A sign that there's still hope, yes. (I've been actually rewatching Voyager on Netflix recently. Ahhh, Jeri Ryan, giggity.)
(http://i924.photobucket.com/albums/ad87/Zhyd/DoubleFacepalmRickerPicard.jpg)
I lol'd.
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never?