Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: hlbly on August 23, 2012, 03:53:12 AM
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The US is always pointed out as the leader in gun violence . Seems we are the only place on earth were we have these mass shootings . Or are we ? I have just spent about 5 minutes looking up mass shootings in Europe . 1989 at the Raumanmeri school in Rauma , Jokela in 2007 and Kauhajoki in 2008 . Three of them in Finland . School shootings at that . I never even heard of these . I have not looked into the gun laws in Finland yet . When I started this thread I wanted to address the issue of the effectiveness of gun control laws . Will tough laws stop the mass murders ? Will they just switch to a different method of attack ? Something impossible to control ? Perhaps bombs ? I already knew about the Norway attacks . I looked at Norwegian gun laws . Very strict is the only way I can think of to describe them . Well maybe ineffective might apply as well . I know some people are going to immediately think I am indoctrinated and ultra conservative . Sorry to disappoint but I am very middle of the road politically . I despise the bi partisan bickering in this country . I think both sides have some pretty idiotic notions as well . Either side can disgust me when they want to do away with the Constitution . I think any entity that wants to attack constitutional rights should be resisted . Both sides are more than willing to do so . I will cite an example for each side . Conservatives brought us the Patriot Act ,and its laundry list of circumventions of the Bill of Rights . The liberals do love their attacks on the second amendment . Now I know the 2a was put there to protect us from the possibility of an oppressive government . Anyone that thinks differently needs to read it ,and remember why we revolted from England . I have only recently bought two personal weapons . The last time I owned a weapon was 30+ years before . I used them for hunting . Something I lost my taste for a long time ago . To me they were dirty dangerous tools I no longer had a need for . What changed my mind was a gang that is very strong around here started in Oregon prisons . The European Kindred . They do love a good home invasion robbery . They prefer to hit meth dealers but do not limit themselves . The local police being unable to solve any of them . Here is a link to the latest .
http://lebanon-express.com/news/local/still-no-arrests-in-saturday-shootings/article_5f11a480-e72c-11e1-8dda-001a4bcf887a.html
I found out exactly what happened . The two shot each other . The 53 year old is a small time meth dealer . The 28 yo a member of the EK . Him and another member of the EK had robbed this guy at gunpoint a month earlier so the 53 yo armed himself . When he had recovered from the earlier robbery financially the EK decided he was a nice easy victim that did not report them . Since he was "rolling" again it was time to "tax" him again . My investigative technique . A 20 dollar bill and a discreet conversation with some one I went to school with and is now a meth head . EK is fairly well organized but operational security is not a strong point with them . This stuff and the 2004??? Supreme Court decision in Castle Rock v Gonzales stating the police have no legal obligation to protect citizens has forced me to arm myself . I now own an Ithaca 1911A1 and a Mossburg 12 gauge . I have regained my proficiency with my old friend the 1911A1 and rediscovered shooting clay pigeons is just a lot of fun . I pray to God I never have to point either at a living creature . Something I promised myself I would never do again after ETS . I do need a little advice on what is a good round for the 12 gauge for home defense . Any suggestions ?
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And stay tuned for the next question: Rule #14, does it work?
:devil
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If you have neighbors close, or live in an Apartment of some kind,
2-3/4inch #4 buckshot..
If you are wide open, the popular choice is,
3inch #00 Buckshot..
Personally I have good fire discipline, so I like
3inch #000 buckshot myself!
Might wanna consider rubber buckshot too..
As a primer.. I keep Rubber in the chamber,
and won't hesitate to use it.. But the 2nd
round is Pure Death..
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IN :rock
:cheers: Oz
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Saw back during the Olympics that British tennis star Andy Murray was a student during the 1996 "Dunblane School Massacre" in Scotland. 17 children were killed by a lone gunman.
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Fix the Government and Financial corruption and people can live a decent life without getting desperate for money.
Why are we fascinated with horror so the media drags these stories out and makes infamous criminals. The ultimate "look at me" for the deranged.
There will still be wackos out there that will attack with anything they can get thier hands on so arm the honest Citizen.
Police are only there to pick up the pieces (or Bodies) at crime scenes.
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Fix the Government and Financial corruption and people can live a decent life without getting desperate for money.
Why are we fascinated with horror so the media drags these stories out and makes infamous criminals. The ultimate "look at me" for the deranged.
There will still be wackos out there that will attack with anything they can get thier hands on so arm the honest Citizen.
Police are only there to pick up the pieces (or Bodies) at crime scenes.
Police are legally bound to enforce that law.
I do not think that there is a LEO out there that would not protect a citizen, if they were present when the citizen needed protecting.
Unfortunately, they cannot always be there exactly at the moment that they are needed.
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The US is always pointed out as the leader in gun violence . Seems we are the only place on earth were we have these mass shootings . Or are we ? I have just spent about 5 minutes looking up mass shootings in Europe . 1989 at the Raumanmeri school in Rauma , Jokela in 2007 and Kauhajoki in 2008 . Three of them in Finland . School shootings at that . I never even heard of these . I have not looked into the gun laws in Finland yet . When I started this thread I wanted to address the issue of the effectiveness of gun control laws . Will tough laws stop the mass murders ? Will they just switch to a different method of attack ? Something impossible to control ? Perhaps bombs ? I already knew about the Norway attacks . I looked at Norwegian gun laws . Very strict is the only way I can think of to describe them . Well maybe ineffective might apply as well . I know some people are going to immediately think I am indoctrinated and ultra conservative . Sorry to disappoint but I am very middle of the road politically . I despise the bi partisan bickering in this country . I think both sides have some pretty idiotic notions as well . Either side can disgust me when they want to do away with the Constitution . I think any entity that wants to attack constitutional rights should be resisted . Both sides are more than willing to do so . I will cite an example for each side . Conservatives brought us the Patriot Act ,and its laundry list of circumventions of the Bill of Rights . The liberals do love their attacks on the second amendment . Now I know the 2a was put there to protect us from the possibility of an oppressive government . Anyone that thinks differently needs to read it ,and remember why we revolted from England . I have only recently bought two personal weapons . The last time I owned a weapon was 30+ years before . I used them for hunting . Something I lost my taste for a long time ago . To me they were dirty dangerous tools I no longer had a need for . What changed my mind was a gang that is very strong around here started in Oregon prisons . The European Kindred . They do love a good home invasion robbery . They prefer to hit meth dealers but do not limit themselves . The local police being unable to solve any of them . Here is a link to the latest .
http://lebanon-express.com/news/local/still-no-arrests-in-saturday-shootings/article_5f11a480-e72c-11e1-8dda-001a4bcf887a.html
I found out exactly what happened . The two shot each other . The 53 year old is a small time meth dealer . The 28 yo a member of the EK . Him and another member of the EK had robbed this guy at gunpoint a month earlier so the 53 yo armed himself . When he had recovered from the earlier robbery financially the EK decided he was a nice easy victim that did not report them . Since he was "rolling" again it was time to "tax" him again . My investigative technique . A 20 dollar bill and a discreet conversation with some one I went to school with and is now a meth head . EK is fairly well organized but operational security is not a strong point with them . This stuff and the 2004??? Supreme Court decision in Castle Rock v Gonzales stating the police have no legal obligation to protect citizens has forced me to arm myself . I now own an Ithaca 1911A1 and a Mossburg 12 gauge . I have regained my proficiency with my old friend the 1911A1 and rediscovered shooting clay pigeons is just a lot of fun . I pray to God I never have to point either at a living creature . Something I promised myself I would never do again after ETS . I do need a little advice on what is a good round for the 12 gauge for home defense . Any suggestions ?
I'm a fan of the 2nd amendment, but I am kind of on the fence in regards to where you draw the line for civilians. Automatic weapons obviously were not invented when the constitution was drafted. What if they were around back then, and there were mass shootings where dozens were left dead? I wonder if our Forefathers would have put restrictions on them. On the other hand, it's not the weapon that is doing the killing but the person, BUT, an automatic weapon enables them to kill many in a short period of time. I think a person should be able to own a semi automatic weapon if it suites their fancy for whatever reason, but there needs to be more rigorous screening, or training process, which includes a psychiatric evaluation. If you get all the paperwork done, signatures, training program, you can get one. If you fail the psychiatric screening you can try again in a year.
I'm a fan of the principles of the patriot act.
In general in regards to the parties I find party philosophies hypocritical to their cores. The right lives and breathes on "keeping the government out of personal lives", yet they want excessive governement regulation into peoples personal lives when it comes to social issues such as abortion and gay marriage. On the other hand, the left lives and breathes on more government, more regulation to "take care of the people" yet want little to no government regulation on issues such as the patriot act.
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My own opinion is that guns and gun laws are something of red herring. The reality is that the use of violence whether it be guns or any other weapon is a reflection of the society you live in. The OP has bought two guns for protection and that is the real problem. The issue isn't guns but that he feel he needs a gun to protect himself and his family. That's the issue that needs to be addressed. All to often that gets ignored in arguments over gun laws.
In most of America, I'm sure and certainly in most European countries most people don't feel the need to own a gun for protection, Sport yes, fun yes. Protection? A bonus maybe.
Gun massacres attract the publicity but in the overall scheme of things they're not representative. They seem more common in the US no doubt because of the relative ease of availability of firearms. There is a pattern among the perpetrators, misfits who reach a breaking point. Not sure how you you can legislate for that. The British introduced draconian gun laws after Dunblane in a knee jerk reaction to that. It did nothing to reduce gun crime in Britain. Criminals don't apply for a licence.
What really needs to happen is that people who live in 'riskier' areas should be pushing their local authorities and politicians to do something about and for those people to actually address the problem.
Probably wishful thinking.
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Fix the Government and Financial corruption and people can live a decent life without getting desperate for money.
Why are we fascinated with horror so the media drags these stories out and makes infamous criminals. The ultimate "look at me" for the deranged.
There will still be wackos out there that will attack with anything they can get their hands on so arm the honest Citizen.
Police are only there to pick up the pieces (or Bodies) at crime scenes.
Goodness me a sensible comment :)
You must have English in your family :old:
The the war of independence was because you were ungrateful for the English defending you from the French
CPXX is talking sense as well, this thread needs closing :old:
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I'm a fan of the 2nd amendment, but I am kind of on the fence in regards to where you draw the line for civilians. Automatic weapons obviously were not invented when the constitution was drafted. What if they were around back then, and there were mass shootings where dozens were left dead?
Televisions and computers weren't around when the constitution was drafted, should we be able to limit the first amendment on those devices?
I'm really just playing devil's advocate, there has to be a line somewhere, but a lot of things have changed since the constitution was written.
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Why don't we chip eveyone in the world so we know where they are and can stop them being naughty :)
I don't need chipping becaue I am Prince Philip of Norway and ride a white pony called Big Boy :)
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Televisions and computers weren't around when the constitution was drafted, should we be able to limit the first amendment on those devices?
I'm really just playing devil's advocate, there has to be a line somewhere, but a lot of things have changed since the constitution was written.
Yep. If an issue arose were it was deemed necessary by the citizens of this country, then yes. My point is, the constitution is not a commandment from god. It was made by regular men, in the context of their way of life at the time. There have been adjustments made to it throughout US history.
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Why don't we chip eveyone in the world so we know where they are and can stop them being naughty :)
I don't need chipping becaue I am Prince Philip of Norway and ride a white pony called Big Boy :)
Hey lets go there. I think all parolee's should be chipped.
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I'm a fan of the 2nd amendment, but I am kind of on the fence in regards to where you draw the line for civilians. Automatic weapons obviously were not invented when the constitution was drafted. What if they were around back then, and there were mass shootings where dozens were left dead? I wonder if our Forefathers would have put restrictions on them. On the other hand, it's not the weapon that is doing the killing but the person, BUT, an automatic weapon enables them to kill many in a short period of time. I think a person should be able to own a semi automatic weapon if it suites their fancy for whatever reason, but there needs to be more rigorous screening, or training process, which includes a psychiatric evaluation. If you get all the paperwork done, signatures, training program, you can get one. If you fail the psychiatric screening you can try again in a year.
I'm a fan of the principles of the patriot act.
In general in regards to the parties I find party philosophies hypocritical to their cores. The right lives and breathes on "keeping the government out of personal lives", yet they want excessive government regulation into peoples personal lives when it comes to social issues such as abortion and gay marriage. On the other hand, the left lives and breathes on more government, more regulation to "take care of the people" yet want little to no government regulation on issues such as the patriot act.
Grizz I think that the founding fathers intended for the people to be able to arm themselves on the same basic level as the government can arm its personal . You are right though they could not have known the increase in lethality that was coming in the 20th century .
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Yep. If an issue arose were it was deemed necessary by the citizens of this country, then yes. My point is, the constitution is not a commandment from god. It was made by regular men, in the context of their way of life at the time. There have been adjustments made to it throughout US history.
Then use the proper amendment process, don't avoid it trying to rule by decree...
That is treason, and surely the road to war!
But they don't, because they know the people are not going to sit still for it..
So here we are..
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Hey lets go there. I think all parolee's should be chipped.
But what about thier civil rights if you have been in jail numerous times its societies fault and nothing to do with being rsponsible for you own actions :)
Years ago if you had been in jail you kept it to yourself, today its a form of honour, I worked for a archive in Salford Manchester, one night shift we got talking to some new guy who informed us he had just come out of Strangeways prison for breaking into some one house and stealing. Next day he was fired, he was not bothered he thought its was a occupational hazard getting caught and it was alright to discuss it. :old:
The manager who employed him knew the guy and I told him if he employed crimminals again I would get him sacked. :old:
Crimminals in my opinion keep their mouths shut and thier heads down for twenty years until we have decided they are fit to treated as respectable people. :old:
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But what about thier civil rights if you have been in jail numerous times its societies fault and nothing to do with being rsponsible for you own actions :)
Years ago if you had been in jail you kept it to yourself, today its a form of honour, I worked for a archive in Salford Manchester, one night shift we got talking to some new guy who informed us he had just come out of Strangeways prison for breaking into some one house and stealing. Next day he was fired, he was not bothered he thought its was a occupational hazard getting caught and it was alright to discuss it. :old:
The manager who employed him knew the guy and I told him if he employed crimminals again I would get him sacked. :old:
Crimminals in my opinion keep their mouths shut and thier heads down for twenty years until we have decided they are fit to treated as respectable people. :old:
A very broad statement my pie-hording friend. :)
How are they supposed to make a lawful living if someone is not willing to give them a second chance?
It really defeats the purpose of rehabilitation or punishment if all you give someone that has served their sentence no options to make an honest
living.
Agreed. People make mistakes, A lot have paid their debt to society and continue on realizing their mistakes. Others are in and out of custody like the prison has a revolving door. It is not a badge of honor.
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Thats my point if you are crimminal you keep your mouth and your head down, if you tell everyone as if its normal behaviour is not exceptable :old: (do gooders have given excuses for thier behaviour)
Until decent people make it clear that unsociable behaviour is unexceptable these people will continue to behave in such a manner :old:
I know people with colorful pasts, the differences is they don't view it as a badge of honor or use excuses why they did it :old:
The majority if crime is not for a loaf of bread or shoes for your kids its crime for personal gain :old:
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BURN ZACK'S Pies
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I think Zack might if he forgets he has them in his oven :D
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My own opinion is that guns and gun laws are something of red herring. The reality is that the use of violence whether it be guns or any other weapon is a reflection of the society you live in. The OP has bought two guns for protection and that is the real problem. The issue isn't guns but that he feel he needs a gun to protect himself and his family. That's the issue that needs to be addressed. All to often that gets ignored in arguments over gun laws.
In most of America, I'm sure and certainly in most European countries most people don't feel the need to own a gun for protection, Sport yes, fun yes. Protection? A bonus maybe.
Gun massacres attract the publicity but in the overall scheme of things they're not representative. They seem more common in the US no doubt because of the relative ease of availability of firearms. There is a pattern among the perpetrators, misfits who reach a breaking point. Not sure how you you can legislate for that. The British introduced draconian gun laws after Dunblane in a knee jerk reaction to that. It did nothing to reduce gun crime in Britain. Criminals don't apply for a licence.
What really needs to happen is that people who live in 'riskier' areas should be pushing their local authorities and politicians to do something about and for those people to actually address the problem.
Probably wishful thinking.
I much more than feel I need to protect myself . Did you read the article in the local papers ? You are certainly making a lot of assumptions about me and where I live . I am financially secure and will be for the rest of my life . Not rich but secure . The town I live in never had a gang problem until 3 years ago . It is not a poor community or a ghetto . The meth heads did not do home invasions . Not even on each other . Read a little bit about the EK and their tactics . They got the message across early on when an elderly woman who witnessed an EK assault and was going to testify disappeared . In 2003, for example, a gang member beat and stomped to death a developmentally disabled black woman and then set her body on fire while believing she was still alive. The shooting that took place last Saturday happened 3 blocks from my home . Two people are shot one calls police . 15 minutes later another GSW victim shows up at the local hospital . The police are treating this like two separate shootings . In a town of 15,000 . The last shooting had been three years ago I think . Believe me the NEED to protect myself ,my 80 yo father and 2 yo daughter is real . The last thing I ever wanted to do was use a firearm ever again . 22 years in the Army as an Infantryman and Cav Scout sated any desire to have weapons as a daily part of my life . The only thing I find more unappealing is the thought of methed out gang members who have so far operated with impunity in my community . In my home being the only ones armed .
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From an outsiders perspective (I'm a brit living in the US)
We're used to not having personal weapons - after the Hungerford incident and the Dunblane incident, there was such an outcry. Handguns were banned, big restrictions were put in place on all other types of weapons. For instance, if you own an air rifle that is above 12ft pounds, you need a Firearms Certificate.
As a result of the bans, and public media reporting, the only people in the UK who have weapons are the authorities, and the criminals. When I was living in Portsmouth, I could walk out of my house, go into a local bar, and walk out 30 mins later with a firearm - completely illegal, but easy enough to do.
Now I live in the US, in a small town (like Hlbly) I'm in the process of obtaining (legally) - 1 x shotgun (home defence) and eventually a pistol (thinking .40 calibre at the moment). This is not because I dont trust the police to respond, but because there are generally only 2 or 3 onshift at any one time. My wife and family are not going to be victims, yet neither are any of us going to be antagonists.
Should there be control over what people own, imo yes. But to completely ban (disarm) 1 sector of a population is fascile - armed criminals are not going to respect the fact that you/we have been disarmed by law.
Sorry, rambled a bit there.
Wurz
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Sorry I think you misunderstood my comments. I do see how you you need a gun to protect yourself. Clearly you do, given the circumstances you mention. More to the point it's a recent development in your town as you said;
The town I live in never had a gang problem until 3 years ago . It is not a poor community or a ghetto .
All the more reason the local authorities and Police should be dealing with the problem. They have failed when people like you live in fear and have to arm themselves for protection. Particularly in a small town like that.
I do understand where you're coming from.
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Sorry I think you misunderstood my comments. I do see how you you need a gun to protect yourself. Clearly you do, given the circumstances you mention. More to the point it's a recent development in your town as you said;
All the more reason the local authorities and Police should be dealing with the problem. They have failed when people like you live in fear and have to arm themselves for protection. Particularly in a small town like that.
I do understand where you're coming from.
This is the only part that you haven't understood, yet.
We don't :aok
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Wurzel is right :)
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If anyone hear belongs to the NRA or reads thier rifleman magazine you are aware of the "Armed Citizen" column.
Something the media will rarely report is how many robberies and home invasions were stopped by Citizens that defended themselves with firearms. With hundreds of millions of people in the us alone the Police are just outnumbered.
If we could get past the Hype and train ALL Citizens how to use and respect the Deadliest of Tools we would be better off.
I teach my grandson about Gun Safety so hopefully he will never injure himself or anyone else by accident.
If need be you should have the skills to identify and hit your target.
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I'd rather have the ability to defend myself against ten gunmen than to be killed like a sheep by one.
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Average police response time in the US is about 6 minutes. Average time for a trained armed citizen to clear leather and get the first shot is about 5 seconds. Criminals don't obey laws,so they don't apply to them. With 20,000 gun laws on the books now,if they actually worked,the US should be crime free.
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Its a problem if you feel the need to protect yourself with guns. Its called a break down of society, and guns arn't going to fix that. I'd like to imagine that I'm part of an orderly society and not a wild west shootout.
I know many have a preconceived notion of who I am, and that being said, I have shot many guns and have hunted animals, etc.. But never am I going to delude myself with the belief that I need military equipment to protect myself. Think about it, if you need military equipment, you either live in anarchy, or your fantasizing about living in an anarchic environment and guns are the least of your problems.
Crime is a serious issue, and to Hilblys experience, having lived very close to where Hilbly lives, its true that part of Oregon does suffer from a meth problem, but the problem is the meth, little opportunity, etc... and guns are not going to fix that. Furthermore, with over 100 million guns in circulation, I don't advocate for the elimination of the second amendment, nor do I think its reasonable, but taking the other extreme is equally unreasonable. With great power comes great responsibility, and frankly, I don't trust people with that responsibility. Enabling people to have tools to kill many people at once quickly is too risky for our society for us to take the attitude, "trust, until there is a breach of trust". How many people need to die, so some of us can have 'symbols' of freedom? What if it was your kid who got killed because some nutjob brought a automatic rifle to school?
EDIT: Scuzzy must be on vacation....
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Its a problem if you feel the need to protect yourself with guns. Its called a break down of society, and guns arn't going to fix that. I'd like to imagine that I'm part of an orderly society and not a wild west shootout.
I know many have a preconceived notion of who I am, and that being said, I have shot many guns and have hunted animals, etc.. But never am I going to delude myself with the belief that I need military equipment to protect myself. Think about it, if you need military equipment, you either live in anarchy, or your fantasizing about living in an anarchic environment and guns are the least of your problems.
Crime is a serious issue, and to Hilblys experience, having lived very close to where Hilbly lives, its true that part of Oregon does suffer from a meth problem, but the problem is the meth, little opportunity, etc... and guns are not going to fix that. Furthermore, with over 100 million guns in circulation, I don't advocate for the elimination of the second amendment, nor do I think its reasonable, but taking the other extreme is equally unreasonable. With great power comes great responsibility, and frankly, I don't trust people with that responsibility. Enabling people to have tools to kill many people at once quickly is too risky for our society for us to take the attitude, "trust, until there is a breach of trust". How many people need to die, so some of us can have 'symbols' of freedom? What if it was your kid who got killed because some nutjob brought a automatic rifle to school?
EDIT: Scuzzy must be on vacation....
I would have the same sentiments if it was a deer rifle, a handgun or a shotgun.
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It is a break down of society.
So you have a gun.
I thank you.
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Edit: Not worth it. I'm done with Ardy and the ignorance.
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It is a break down of society.
So you have a gun.
I thank you.
I'm sorry to have to go here, and I mean it in no personally or otherwise offensive way but more of a statement of fact: The reality of "The sun never setting on the British Empire" is supposed to mean that there are places colonized by the British all over the world, correct? I'm sure that this was not always an arraignment settled over a cup of tea or a tumbler of that filthy gin :D To have the notion that we are all savages is ridiculous and narrow-minded. Besides, do you think a Cricket bat will be enough to protect your pies when the bogie man comes?
Bearing arms was how we won our independence. Most countries realize this. To allow ones citizens to be armed comes with the realization that the government will not be able to ever have complete and total control over the population.
There is a breakdown of society in many places besides the US and it has nothing to do with with whether or not the people are armed or not.
If citizens want to revolt, they will find a way. Stripping the Scottish of their right to bears arms didn't seem to deter them for fighting like badgers for their freedom.
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Edit: Not worth it. I'm done with Ardy and the ignorance.
1) Angry Adult holding a grudge over a commedic BBS post days later? <check>
2) Tribalism perspective? ('my way and f'u if you don't agree) <check>
3) Paranoid, so fearful that you need to be armed <check>
^^^^ clearly not in a rational state of mind.
And they let you have guns? I rest my case. :salute
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I'm sorry to have to go here, and I mean it in no personally or otherwise offensive way but more of a statement of fact: The reality of "The sun never setting on the British Empire" is supposed to mean that there are places colonized by the British all over the world, correct? I'm sure that this was not always an arraignment settled over a cup of tea or a tumbler of that filthy gin :D To have the notion that we are all savages is ridiculous and narrow-minded. Besides, do you think a Cricket bat will be enough to protect your pies when the bogie man comes?
Bearing arms was how we won our independence. Most countries realize this. To allow ones citizens to be armed comes with the realization that the government will not be able to ever have complete and total control over the population.
There is a breakdown of society in many places besides the US and it has nothing to do with with whether or not the people are armed or not.
If citizens want to revolt, they will find a way. Stripping the Scottish of their right to bears arms didn't seem to deter them for fighting like badgers for their freedom.
I would like to add that the US is actually experiencing an all time low in violent crime nationally. And that's something to be proud about.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/06/11/12170947-fbi-violent-crime-rates-in-the-us-drop-approach-historic-lows?lite (http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/06/11/12170947-fbi-violent-crime-rates-in-the-us-drop-approach-historic-lows?lite)
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1) Angry and holding a grudge over a sarcastic BBS post days later? <check>
2) Tribalism perspective? ('my way and f'u if you don't agree) <check>
3) Paranoid, so fearful that you need to be armed <check>
^^^^ clearly not in a rational state of mind.
And they let you have guns? I rest my case. :salute
Why do you keep saying that everyone that is armed is paranoid or fearful? I am asking sincerely, not to create an argument out of it. I have never in my life felt that possessing the tools with which to defend myself was the same thing as paranoia or fear.
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Braveheart was nonsense the Scots betrayed each other for Land and title in England, and fought for the British Empire time and time again.
I agree with you von about the right to bear arms, if the scum are not being sorted by the state you can look out for your own.
Western Society is ineffectual in dealing with crime in general due to Liberal elites in its midst, who are not generally affect by said acts of crime.
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Why do you keep saying that everyone that is armed is paranoid or fearful? I am asking sincerely, not to create an argument out of it. I have never in my life felt that possessing the tools with which to defend myself was the same thing as paranoia or fear.
The argument that keeps getting expressed is that they need to be armed to protect themselves at all times. I can understand having a gun at your house for rare occasions and while agree that police can't be there at times, this notion that our existence is so risky that we need that level security seems to suggest that fear may have gotten the better of us. Short of going to a range or the likes, I have thankfully never felt I need to carry one and I live in a large city that has fairly high crime. It saddens me that people are so afraid of their neighbors.
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Well, gun sales have been holding near the 2.5 million per month..
At the new year they spiked up to 5 million..
Manufacturers are back ordered so far, they have quit taking orders..
Every time someone talks about Firearms legislation, more people go
out and buy more guns.. With all that is happening right now???
This is like the writing on the wall, or the line in the sand..
It clearly shows the peoples mind on this issue!
DON'T FORGET!
2 x ESAPI Rifle plates, Gamma III+, Multi hit rated,
Tested vs 30/06 lake city AP.. Size Large..
260.00$ SecretCitySupply on Ebay..
Would ya rather have a 1000$ rifle???
Or a 700$ rifle and 300$ worth of Body Armor???
Think about it!
(edit) Night Vision devices and Gas Mask too..
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Government is the problem not the solution. Like Zack said the Elites don't live in the same world we do. Many wish to take our Guns but would never disarm thier security detail.
Look at the "War on Drugs". Billions of dollars have been poured into the effort with the wrong goals. Drugs still can be had anywhere.
We take a young man on meth and put him in Jail where he learns to become a better criminal. He comes out with new connections and so on and so on.
Trying to force a society in a direction never works. We need better leaders not more lawyers that have been taught to lie and distort the truth.
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Chicago has a no guns law and that city has a HORRIBLE murder rate.
In my town a man was recently beaten to death with a baseball bat.
When baseball bats are outlawed, only outlaws will have baseball bats.
Don't get me started about a man who was murdered with a croquette mallett.
I prefer my .45 with ACP, personally. My people have had guns since setting foot on this continent in the 1670's in the area of Richmond, VA. Learning from elders about gun safety, proper firing, target practice, moving target practice has been a rite of passage for over 300 years. I REFUSE to be a SUBJECT. I will be a citizen, thanks.
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The argument that keeps getting expressed is that they need to be armed to protect themselves at all times. I can understand having a gun at your house for rare occasions and while agree that police can't be there at times, this notion that our existence is so risky that we need that level security seems to suggest that fear may have gotten the better of us. Short of going to a range or the likes, I have thankfully never felt I need to carried one and I live in a large city that has fairly high crime. It saddens me that people are so afraid of their neighbors.
I can understand people not wanting to carry a gun, but you seriously misunderstand the mentality of many who carry. I don't carry because "I feel I need to," but rather because I recognize that at some point, I may need to defend myself and want to have the tool to do that. That doesn't mean I'm fearful of others. I'm a friendly, non-confrontational person. Most people are quite surprised I am even a gun owner (gun owner stereotypes).
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I can understand people not wanting to carry a gun, but you seriously misunderstand the mentality of many who carry. I don't carry because "I feel I need to," but rather because I recognize that at some point, I may need to defend myself and want to have the tool to do that. That doesn't mean I'm fearful of others. I'm a friendly, non-confrontational person. Most people are quite surprised I am even a gun owner (gun owner stereotypes).
The sweet little old lady next door has a wiener-dog, an over landscaped house, is in her 80's, gets up at 5 AM and is lights out by 8:30 PM, loves home made chili, and HAS AN ARSENAL! I always call and then call out verbally if I hear her intruder alarm go off and go to check on her. Then again, I meet her coming out and she's got a .38 in each hand and I wave and show my .45.
I was shocked she had an arsenal. She was shocked I owned a hand cannon.
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I can understand people not wanting to carry a gun, but you seriously misunderstand the mentality of many who carry. I don't carry because "I feel I need to," but rather because I recognize that at some point, I may need to defend myself and want to have the tool to do that. That doesn't mean I'm fearful of others. I'm a friendly, non-confrontational person. Most people are quite surprised I am even a gun owner (gun owner stereotypes).
I'm not in a belligerent mood so I'll back out if this gets heated...
'needing too' vs 'may needing too'
Fear is still motivating one to prepare for the occasion.
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I'm not in a belligerent mood so I'll back out if this gets heated...
'needing too' vs 'may needing too'
Fear is still motivating one to prepare for the occasion.
I am concerned for my safety so I put on a seat belt every time I drive. I don't need it 99% of the time but in that one accident I was glad to have it.
Being prepared is not fear for I do not fear as I am prepared.
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I am concerned for my safety so I put on a seat belt every time I drive. I don't need it 99% of the time but in that one accident I was glad to have it.
Being prepared is not fear for I do not fear as I am prepared.
I understand your point, but its a poor comparison...
1) You have roughly a 30 percent chance of being in a serious car crash during your life time.
2) Thankfully the chances of you being involved in gun violence is significantly less, by a very large margin.
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I understand your point, but its a poor comparison...
1) You have roughly a 30 percent chance of being in a serious car crash during your life time.
2) Thankfully the chances of you being involved in gun violence is significantly less, by a very large margin.
It is as normal to me as keeping an umbrella in the car in case it rains. That doesn't mean that I fear getting wet, but I would prefer not to.
Especially since I'm beating the odds so far, on that whole car crash, thing... :furious
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/DansArmXRay.jpg)
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It is as normal to me as keeping an umbrella in the car in case it rains. That doesn't mean that I fear getting wet, but I would prefer not to.
Especially since I'm beating the odds so far, on that whole car crash, thing... :furious
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/DansArmXRay.jpg)
eek, that looks painful...glad your alive.
Well watch out, you have a higher chance at being struck by lightning and if the umbrellea and your had are conductive... eekk :O
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Ardy how to you equate refusing to be victimized with me being fearful or paranoid ? I do not carry my weapons with me unless I am going to go shoot . The EK are doing about a dozen home invasions a month here . The reason I feel I need home defense weapons is this . One my 80 yo father keeps a substantial amount of cash on him far more than a low level drug dealer will probably have . No amount of reasoning will get him to stop this . I think it has something to do with the Great Depression and being old enough to remember it . I have also had a few run ins with the local meth crowd . They stole some of my RC planes and I recovered them ,forcefully . My ex got into it and had my baby exposed to it and I was not shy about telling anyone in authority everything I learned about them . In an effort to keep my child away from it . In a small town sooner or later they will probably find out there is cash here . They are already doing home invasion robberies of people other than meth dealers . Making people afraid to testify . I have two meth heads I pay for information at times . It started when my ex had my kid at meth houses . I have been thinking about letting them know in a subtle manner that I am now armed . Hoping for a deterrence effect . Still not sure if that is better than the surprise effect . No ardy I am not in fear . I am a veteran . I have used deadly force before . I know how I will react . The training will take over I will do what is needed . The fear comes in when they are in my home and the only ones armed are the criminals . I refuse to be a victim . I am not paranoid . I think the odds are not that great that I will need to defend myself . When it comes to my families safety I am only willing to bet on the sure thing .
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Why are drug adicts not put onto islands and given a bed and bible?
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Ardy how to you equate refusing to be victimized with me being fearful or paranoid ? I do not carry my weapons with me unless I am going to go shoot . The EK are doing about a dozen home invasions a month here . The reason I feel I need home defense weapons is this . One my 80 yo father keeps a substantial amount of cash on him far more than a low level drug dealer will probably have . No amount of reasoning will get him to stop this . I think it has something to do with the Great Depression and being old enough to remember it . I have also had a few run ins with the local meth crowd . They stole some of my RC planes and I recovered them ,forcefully . My ex got into it and had my baby exposed to it and I was not shy about telling anyone in authority everything I learned about them . In an effort to keep my child away from it . In a small town sooner or later they will probably find out there is cash here . They are already doing home invasion robberies of people other than meth dealers . Making people afraid to testify . I have two meth heads I pay for information at times . It started when my ex had my kid at meth houses . I have been thinking about letting them know in a subtle manner that I am now armed . Hoping for a deterrence effect . Still not sure if that is better than the surprise effect .
Oh I think you are extending what I said beyond what I indented. Your second sentence verifies that. I was referring to citizens who generally are not in harms way who espouse that they carry weapons on them frequently under the rational that they may need to use them, which you said you are not. As for letting people know you are armed, I'd be careful with that you may attract attention you don't want. Sounds like Linn/Benton counties needs significant improvements to its police departments. When I was there, their police chief (Corvallis) was more interested in dolling out MIPs and speeding tickets than combating trailer park meth labs and their associated problems...
EDIT: I think in one of my previous posts, I explained that I do understand keeping a weapon in your house etc...
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Why are drug adicts not put onto islands and given a bed and bible?
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/PoliticsMelBrooks.jpg)
Politics, politics, politics :rofl
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(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/PoliticsMelBrooks.jpg)
Politics, politics, politics :rofl
:rofl
Occupation: Stand up philosopher, I coalesce the vapor of human experience into a viable and logical comprehension.
Oh a b-sh1$ artist...
Did you B-sh1$ this week?
...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF2RYhNhBdwp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF2RYhNhBdwp)
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1) Angry Adult holding a grudge over a commedic BBS post days later? <check>
2) Tribalism perspective? ('my way and f'u if you don't agree) <check>
3) Paranoid, so fearful that you need to be armed <check>
^^^^ clearly not in a rational state of mind.
And they let you have guns? I rest my case. :salute
Your pathetic attempts at trolling are just that. I don't hold a grudge against you. I simply think you're an ignorant young person who hasn't lived yet, as I said in PMs when you messaged me.
Want to see what I posted in response to your ignorance? Here you go:
Nice that you imagine you live in a fantasy world. The real world is far somewhere between orderly and disordler, but it's certainly not the Wild West. It's not even close to that. However, there are criminals everywhere, and they'd be much happier knowing that Ardy doesn't want the tool to defend himself.
So your judgment on all of us that own 'military' equipment is that we live in anarchy or fantasize about it? Stereotype much? I'd venture to say that 99.9% of us don't own ANY military equipment, but civilian versions of said equipment. There's quite a difference.
Do you even know what you're saying? Show me where an 'automatic' weapon was used in any of the crimes. Do you know what's required to get one, and how regulated they are? 'Automatic' weapons aren't a problem.
I wasn't going to reply at first, but when a post has 3 strikes: imagination, stereotyping, and ignorance of the topic, I thought I'd chime in.
You're simply clueless, but you're entitled to your opinion. But try debating when you know what you're talking about.
Oh -- again, like I said...safely from your computer. You're absolutely a keyboard hero!
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I read through the rest of these posts, and it's obvious that Ardy does not want to comprehend the idea of having a tool IF it is needed, not out of fear.
It's not like a seatbelt...a device to help in an emergeny.
Everybody who has one is somehow living in, or fantasizing about anarchy...
Assumptions about gun owners and stereotyping them...
Then ignorance on what can be purchased, what 'might' be used 'in your kid's school', and enjoying the pushing of people's buttons from the safety of a computer.
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Its a problem if you feel the need to protect yourself with guns. Its called a break down of society, and guns arn't going to fix that.
I disagree. I have stopped two felonies using firearms, apprehending several sonsasqueakes (in 1980 and 1996) in the process. It didn't change the culture, but it resulted in 5 low-lifes getting time upstate in the bend-over Hilton... I can't cure the culture issues, but I can promise that those who would do harm to me and mine will regret their decision, at once and continuously thereafter.
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Mir,
Its clear with your childish defensive response, condescending rhetoric and disrespectful attitude you want to take the conversation up a notch...
thats not going to happen.
btw nice straw man arguemnt around purchasing and use of automatic weapons... good it should be difficult to acquire them.
I'll leave with this parting comment
EDIT: I pressed ctrl-w by accident...
There are may dangers in most people's lives that have a much greater chance of occurring than gun violence which people do not prepare for. Yet given these statistics people continue to argue that they need to be prepared for it. This at best suggests a missed placed set of priorities and is clearly an irrational argument. One can only conclude that it is fear that is motivating this irrationality.
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.
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Mir,
Its clear with your condescending rhetoric and disrespectful attitude you want to take the conversation up a notch...
thats not going to happen.
btw nice straw man arguemnt around purchasing and use of automatic weapons... good it should be difficult to acquire them.
I'll leave with this parting comment
I think you should just be put in your place, as you speak out of pure ignorance. IF you had a clue, you wouldn't need to be talked to like a know-it-all kid who doesn't know it at all.
Straw man argument? What argument -- it's a fact. And it was to point out your ignorance on the topic of which you were trying to speak. Had you said 'semi-automatic', there wouldn't have been a reply. But you didn't, because you obviously don't know what you're talking about when it comes to firearms, and what is easily purchased, nor what is used.
Here's a tip: arm yourself with facts, then debate.
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There are may dangers in most people's lives that have a much greater chance of occurring than gun violence which people do not prepare for. Yet given these statistics people continue to argue that they need to be prepared for it. This at best suggests a missed placed set of priorities and is clearly an irrational argument. One can only conclude that it is fear that is motivating this irrationality.
Care to elaborate on some of these risks?
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Care to elaborate on some of these risks?
Maybe another time, I'd hate to push mir further emotionally overboard have him fall into the #1 (heart attack) or #10 (suicide) slot of causes of death in the US. I'm happy and surprised the conversation remained civil for as long as it did despite our different opinions.
Well, I guess #10, suicide, can be committed with a gun thus can be potentially gun violence, I might have to eat crow on that :D
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Mir,
Its clear with your childish defensive response, condescending rhetoric and disrespectful attitude you want to take the conversation up a notch...
thats not going to happen.
btw nice straw man arguemnt around purchasing and use of automatic weapons... good it should be difficult to acquire them.
I'll leave with this parting comment
EDIT: I pressed ctrl-w by accident...
There are may dangers in most people's lives that have a much greater chance of occurring than gun violence which people do not prepare for. Yet given these statistics people continue to argue that they need to be prepared for it. This at best suggests a missed placed set of priorities and is clearly an irrational argument. One can only conclude that it is fear that is motivating this irrationality.
Indeed, there are many dangers that stalk people. That, however, doesn't mean that we don't prepare ourselves for those dangers. Simply carrying a gun does not prepare you for much. The fact is that the real preparation is mostly mental. If not mentally prepared, a firearm will not usually be of much use. I have no issue with people being armed. I do, however, have an issue with stupid people assuming that the firearm will make a difference, even if they are not mentally prepared. I urge anyone who wants to carry to get training... Train your mind, train with the firearm. Learn the skills that are necessary to function in a combat situation. People without training are far less likely to be successful than those with... If you're not fully prepared to take a life, leave the gun home.... If you cannot retain the fine motor skills required to be efficient with a firearm in a near panic situation, leave the gun in the closet. There are three types of reactions in an emergency situation. 50% of the public will panic, freeze and do absolutely nothing. 40% will do something if instructed to do so. Only 10% will act immediately, while forming a plan of action. If you're not one of the 10%, you will still be a victim. If you're in the 50%, training may just keep you alive. If among the 40%, training will go a long way towards your not only surviving, but being able to defend yourself and others. If you are in the 10%, training will make you a steely-eyed killer, someone the bad guy will regret having encountered. Before considering to carry a firearm, everyone needs to do a soul-searching self assessment and figure out which group you're in. Why? Because an idiot with a gun is still an idiot.
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Gun control laws work if the goal is to make more victims for those who use guns illegally.
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Maybe another time, I'd hate to push mir further emotionally overboard have him fall into the #1 (heart attack) or #10 (suicide) slot of causes of death in the US. I'm happy and surprised the conversation remained civil for as long as it did despite our different opinions.
Well, I guess #10, suicide, can be committed with a gun thus can be potentially gun violence, I might have to eat crow on that :D
Yawn. Is this it? Remained civil? The bottom of page 2, post #29, is where you decided to opine and spew your ignorant garbage.
You're a joke, Ardy. You probably do think that I'm pounding away at my keyboard, angry at you, when I'm actually enjoying the game.
In both the PMs and here, you end up without a rebuttal other than trying to insinuate that I'm one of your stereotypes.
You're gonna have a fun time in life once you leave the womb.
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Ardy and mir, you guys are just proving once again why it is bad to have political discussion
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Ardy and mir, you guys are just proving once again why it is bad to have political discussion
Well, this one is bad, but the conversation with TonyJoey was very even keeled and well conversed for quite some time. He had ideas, those of us who disagreed explained why, and it went back and forth. It just depends on the debaters.
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Ardy and mir, you guys are just proving once again why it is bad to have political discussion
You are correct, I should have completely ignored him and his repeated attempts to insult me, instead I stooped a bit to his level, my apologies to everyone else in the thread.
:salute
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You are correct, I should have completely ignored him and his repeated attempts to insult me, instead I stooped a bit to his level, my apologies to everyone else in the thread.
:salute
As you state with an insult. :aok
:lol
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Gun control laws work, bit the US is too far gone imho. The horse has truely bolted and you'll never regain control.
Feel free to have a read up on New Zealand's gun control laws - they're not perfect - but our gun crime is low enough they count every callout to a kid with a toy gun as a firearms callout :D
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Grizz I think that the founding fathers intended for the people to be able to arm themselves on the same basic level as the government can arm its personal . You are right though they could not have known the increase in lethality that was coming in the 20th century .
There is no information of any kind from the founding fathers to back up your assertion about the citizens being armed as a standing Army.
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You are correct, I should have completely ignored him and his repeated attempts to insult me, instead I stooped a bit to his level, my apologies to everyone else in the thread.
:salute
Bunnies may live then. My decree stands. :O
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I so want to comment, every time I start to.... I get carried away.....
so I will just say....NO they do not work.
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quote author=Widewing link=topic=338256.msg4456703#msg4456703 date=1345769243]
I disagree. I have stopped two felonies using firearms, apprehending several sonsasqueakes (in 1980 and 1996) in the process. It didn't change the culture, but it resulted in 5 low-lifes getting time upstate in the bend-over Hilton... I can't cure the culture issues, but I can promise that those who would do harm to me and mine will regret their decision, at once and continuously thereafter.
[/quote]
:salute
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Hey lets go there. I think all parolee's should be chipped.
I think everyone, and all babies at birth should be DNA sampled
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There is no information of any kind from the founding fathers to back up your assertion about the citizens being armed as a standing Army.
There is also nothing to debunk it, either.
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I think everyone, and all babies at birth should be DNA sampled
I disagree AH would have no customer base :)
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Headline from the Chicago Tribune, August 24 2012
From the Land of NO GUNS ALLOWED..
19 shot overnight in Chicago.. 13 in 30 minutes..
This is in Chicago, where guns are NOT ALLOWED..
So, do gun control laws work??? For what Purpose???
Sounds like they work pretty good at getting people killed!
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I think everyone, and all babies at birth should be DNA sampled
Well, i guess they can have a tag in their ear too, like Cattle???
Wait a sec, I'll bet ya have a cell phone huh??? Samey Same!
Mooo???
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Why are drug addicts not put onto islands and given a bed and bible?
Isn't that called Australia? :D
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Just saw another Headline, From New York..
5 people shot at the Empire State building..
Another Gun Free Zone!
Gotta love unarmed Victims, they make it so easy!
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I agree :old:
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I am armed. I do not force others to arm themselves.
I'll protect myself and my family. Other's can call the police and wait.... if they are lucky they can get the turd to wait before he acts upon them or their family.
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Well, i guess they can have a tag in their ear too, like Cattle???
Wait a sec, I'll bet ya have a cell phone huh??? Samey Same!
Mooo???
Don't be obtuse. I was not suggesting tagging, merely that everyone should have their DNA on file. Innocent people would have nothing to fear. Burglars, rapists, thieves etc would. :old:
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Don't be obtuse. I was not suggesting tagging, merely that everyone should have their DNA on file. Innocent people would have nothing to fear. Burglars, rapists, thieves etc would. :old:
Sorry but I am not the property of the state..
The Gestapo and Hitler himself, would'a had
wet dreams over control of this nature!
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Sorry but I am not the property of the state..
The Gestapo and Hitler himself, would'a had
wet dreams over control of this nature!
Seriously, how do you associate having your dna on file, with being.controlled? My dna was taken when I joined the police. I dont care that it was, because I have nothing to hide. The government know where you live, what you do for a living, where you shop and what for. They know pretty much everything they want to know about you, and me, and yet right now I can go out on my bike, ride wherever I want, do pretty.much whatever I want, I dont feel controlled in any way other than by the.law and my own morals.
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The thing is all gun laws do is take them away form law abiding citizens, a criminal will find away to get agat if he wants.
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Seriously, how do you associate having your dna on file, with being.controlled? My dna was taken when I joined the police. I dont care that it was, because I have nothing to hide. The government know where you live, what you do for a living, where you shop and what for. They know pretty much everything they want to know about you, and me, and yet right now I can go out on my bike, ride wherever I want, do pretty.much whatever I want, I dont feel controlled in any way other than by the.law and my own morals.
I was born long before the DNA sampling started..
My military service ended, before DNA sampling was done..
All that was needed, was my finger prints.. I see no reason to
Catalogue my molecular physiology, in the same manner as
livestock, for selection..
Sad what has happened to your country!
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I stated in another thread my for a similar question. Prohibition tends to work only for those who are inclined to accede to the law. History has shown that in the case of a prohibited activity, object or concept that the law or prohibition does not remove the alleged danger from society. The prohibition on liquor was a prime example. The prohibition on so called "recreational drugs" is another.
As to the prohibition on guns, I think the following describes how well it really works. Columbine, Virginia Tech and Aurora there are more but I'm keeping the list short. All were by law, gun controlled. In those cases only those inclined to follow laws were doing so. In those cases the individual(s) who were not inclined to follow that law as well as the laws prohibiting murder, assault and mayhem were not dissuaded. In those cases they were not stopped until someone with the means to end the situation responded and started to take action.
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I was born long before the DNA sampling started..
My military service ended, before DNA sampling was done..
All that was needed, was my finger prints.. I see no reason to
Catalogue my molecular physiology, in the same manner as
livestock, for selection..
Sad what has happened to your country!
When I first started military service DNA sampling wasnt done either. I fail to see the relevance. Is your only argument really that you object to being catalogued. You still did not explain how having your dna on record exerts any kind of control over you if you are a law abiding citizen.?
As far as I am concerned, if having a database of everyones vital statistics, results in a rapist being caught before he can walk down the same streets as my daughter, then i want it in place and now.
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Oops, Forgot to use the quote.. For danny76
Well I'm not a criminal, and not under suspicion, so why should I be catalogued???
Or, is EVERYONE, ALWAYS under suspicion??? Hmmm???
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Sorry but I am not the property of the state..
The Gestapo and Hitler himself, would'a had
wet dreams over control of this nature!
Not that I care either way... but how does one control another by DNA?
It's not unlike having and ID... or a drivers license except you can be fingered for a crime after you left the area... if they can get DNA.
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Not that I care either way... but how does one control another by DNA?
It's not unlike having and ID... or a drivers license except you can be fingered for a crime after you left the area... if they can get DNA.
I have a natural right to be secure in my person and effects..
And my DNA is definitely, "MY PERSON"...
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I have a natural right to be secure in my person and effects..
And my DNA is definitely, "MY PERSON"...
That does not answer how someone can control you with your DNA.
I do however understand one's fear of being caught in a crime.
Are you really being secure in your person by limiting police the ability to catch someone who may commit a crime against you or your's?
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That does not answer how someone can control you with your DNA.
I do however understand one's fear of being caught in a crime.
Are you really being secure in your person by limiting police the ability to catch someone who may commit a crime against you or your's?
What did you do??? :uhoh :lol
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That does not answer how someone can control you with your DNA.
I do however understand one's fear of being caught in a crime.
Well, All over Nazi Germany, the Police had files on everyone..
Made them into little aluminum plates that corresponded to
files and dossiers, catalogues of their contacts and their
activities..
Why??? Because EVERYONE was ALWAYS under suspicion..
LOL, Why else would they wish to catalogue everyone???
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Well, All over Nazi Germany, the Police had files on everyone..
Made them into little aluminum plates that corresponded to
files and dossiers, catalogues of their contacts and their
activities..
Why??? Because EVERYONE was ALWAYS under suspicion..
LOL, Why else would they wish to catalogue everyone???
This is nothing of the sort..... it's simply DNA. I see where it may protect you but only one reason it may harm you.
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This is nothing of the sort..... it's simply DNA. I see where it may protect you but only one reason it may harm you.
Well, is everyone under suspicion, all the time???
If I am not, then why should I be Cataloged like Livestock???
If it's just DNA, then why is it so important???
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Well, All over Nazi Germany, the Police had files on everyone..
Made them into little aluminum plates that corresponded to
files and dossiers, catalogues of their contacts and their
activities..
Why??? Because EVERYONE was ALWAYS under suspicion..
LOL, Why else would they wish to catalogue everyone???
Every baby in the developed countries of the world has a heel p-r-i-c-k done at birth. The baby is blood typed and tested for diseases. Why not dna sample the blood at the same time. Then, when in 25 years that baby has become some low life that commits a rape and leaves biological evidence behind, the old bill are knocking on his door in a couple of hours. If the baby grows up and 25years later does nothing wrong, he never gets bothered.
I am not sure if I askes this before :bhead, but how does the government control of your mind and body manifest itself? How would they use your DNA to control you?
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Every baby in the developed countries of the world has a heel p-r-i-c-k done at birth. The baby is blood typed and tested for diseases. Why not dna sample the blood at the same time. Then, when in 25 years that baby has become some low life that commits a rape and leaves biological evidence behind, the old bill are knocking on his door in a couple of hours. If the baby grows up and 25years later does nothing wrong, he never gets bothered.
I am not sure if I askes this before :bhead, but how does the government control of your mind and body manifest itself?
My DNA is MY OWN.. Unique to me! No one has a right to it, other than me..
If I am not under suspicion, why must I be Catalogued like Livestock???
I refuse, because I am not Property of the State!
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My DNA is MY OWN.. Unique to me! No one has a right to it, other than me..
If I am not under suspicion, why must I be Catalogued like Livestock???
I refuse, because I am not Property of the State!
Us colonists won the right to be individuals when we kicked the king to the curb 236 years ago. The Ukers arent gonna understand that they are sheeple.
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Danny is talking gibberish.
The career criminals that continue to commit crimes are never dealt with so why should the innocents be DNA checked before they commit a crime.
I know people who are have been criminals since they were kids and they continue to commit crimes.
The courts in UK the don't send people to jail because its not deemed he right thing to do.
The whole criminals justice system would collapse if criminal's were dealt with in a proper manner the Insurance companies would be bankrupt because people would not need insurance. (lots of concerns make lots of money out of dealing with crime)
In my opinion if you have broke into more then 10 peoples houses you should be shot. (your responsible for your own actions)
If you are a drug addict who continues to commit crime you should be shot.(your responsible for our own actions)
If your a sex case you should be shot (you are responsible for your own actions)
Tell me in a single sentence what is wrong in doing people in who cannot behave themselves?
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Tell me in a single sentence what is wrong in doing people in who cannot behave themselves?
Due process.
First, you have to charge them and arraign them. Pre-trial hearing, and then a fair trial, judged by their peers...
Then you hang the bastages....
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Well, is everyone under suspicion, all the time???
If I am not, then why should I be Cataloged like Livestock???
If it's just DNA, then why is it so important???
Reread my post above.
Do you have a drivers license? Do you have a social security number? Do you have an address?
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My DNA is MY OWN.. Unique to me! No one has a right to it, other than me..
If I am not under suspicion, why must I be Catalogued like Livestock???
I refuse, because I am not Property of the State!
Ever heard of social security numbers?
You are already catalogued like live stock. Whoopdee do.
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Take it however you want. It's an interesting read (if you read all of it)
http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/ (http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/)
9/6/1949 - Howard Barton Unruh went on a shooting rampage in Camden, New Jersey with a German Luger. He shot up a barber shop, a pharmacy and a tailor’s shop killing 13 people. He finally surrendered after a shoot-out with police.
8/1/1966 - Charles Joseph Whitman climbed a tower at the University of Texas in Austin, Texas and began shooting at other students and faculty with a sniper rifle. He killed 16 people before being shot and killed by police.
7/18/1984 – James Oliver Huberty shot up a McDonalds in San Ysidro, California killing 21 people before police shoot and killed him.
10/16/1991 - George Hennard entered Luby’s Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas and began indiscriminately shooting the patrons. He killed 23 people in all. He commit suicide after being cornered and wounded in a shootout with police.
11/15/1995 – Jamie Rouse used a .22-caliber semi-automatic rifle to fire indiscriminately inside Richland High School in Lynnville, Tennessee. He killed 2 people before being tackled by a football player and a coach.
2/2/1996 - Barry Loukaitis entered Frontier Middle School in Moses Lake, Washington with a rifle and two handguns. He killed 3 people before the Gym teacher, Jon Lane grabbed the rifle and wrestled the gunman to the ground.
10/1/1997 - Luke Woodham put on a trench coat to conceal a hunting rifle and entered Pearl High School in Pearl, Mississippi. He killed 3 students before vice principal Joel Myrick apprehended him with a Colt .45 without firing.
12/1/1997 - Michael Carneal brought a pistol, two rifles and two shotguns to his high school in Paducah, Kentucky and opened fire on a small prayer group killing 3 girls. His rampage was halted when he was tackled by another student.
4/24/1998 - Andrew Wurst attended a middle school dance in Edinboro, Pennsylvania intent on killing a bully but shot wildly into the crowd. He killed 1 student. James Strand lived next door. When he heard the shots he ran over with his 12 gauge shotgun and apprehended the gunman without firing.
5/21/1998 - Kipland Kinkel entered Thurston High School in Springfield, Oregon with two pistols and a semi-automatic rifle hidden under a trench coat. He opened fire killing 2 students, but while reloading a wounded student named Jacob Ryker tackled him.
4/20/1999 - Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris were the killers behind the Columbine shooting in Littleton, Colorado. The two both commit suicide after police arrived, but what many people do not know is that the school’s armed security guard and the police all stood and waited outside the library while executions happed right inside. 15 people died, not including the shooters.
7/31/1999 - Mark Barton was a daytrader who went on a shooting rampage through two day trading firms in Atlanta, Georgia. He killed 12 people in all and after a police chase he was surrounded by police at a gas station where he commit suicide.
1/16/2002 – Peter Odighizuwa opened fire with a handgun at The Appalachian School in Grundy, Virginia. 3 people were killed before the shooter was apprehended by 3 students, Mikael Gross, Ted Besen, and Tracy Bridges with handguns without firing.
8/27/2003 – Salvador Tapia entered an auto parts store in Chicago, Illinois and shot and killed 6 people with a handgun. He then waged a gunbattle with police before a SWAT team fatally wounded him.
9/24/2003 – John Jason McLaughlin brought a .22-caliber pistol to Rocori High School in Cold Spring, Minnesota. He killed 2 people before PE teacher, Mark Johnson confronted him, disarmed him, and held him in the school office for police to arrive.
2/25/2005 – David Hernandez Arroyo Sr. opened fire on a public square from the steps of a courthouse in Tyler, Texas. The shooter was armed with an assault rifle and wearing body armor. Mark Wilson fired back with a handgun, hitting the shooter but not penetrating the armor. Mark drew the shooter’s fire, and ultimately drove him off, but was fatally wounded. Mark was the only death in this incident.
3/21/2005 – Jeff Weise was a student at Red Lake High School in Red Lake, Minnesota. He killed 7 people including a teacher and a security guard. When police cornered him inside the school, he shot and killed himself.
11/8/2005 – Kenneth Bartley, Jr. brought a .22 caliber pistol to Campbell County Comprehensive High School in Jacksboro, Tennessee and killed 1 person before being disarmed by a teacher.
9/29/2006 – Eric Hainstock brought a .22 caliber revolver and a 20-gauge shotgun into Weston High School in Cazenovia, Wisconson. He killed 1 person before staff and students apprehended him and held him until the police arrived.
4/16/2007 – Seung-Hui Cho was the shooter behind the Virgina Tech shooting in Blacksburg, Virginia. Police apprehend the wrong suspect allowing the shooter to walk across campus and open fire again in a second location. He eventually commit suicide after murdering 32 people.
9/3/2008 – Isaac Zamora went on a shooting rampage in Alger, Washington that killed 6 people, including a motorist shot during a high speed chase with police. He eventually surrendered to police.
3/29/2009 – Robert Stewart went on a killing rampage armed with a rifle, and a shotgun in a nursing home in Carthage, North Carolina. He killed 8 people and was apprehended after a shootout with police.
4/3/2009 – Jiverly Wong went on a shooting rampage at a American Civic Association immigration center in Binghamton, New York where he was enrolled in a citizenship class. 13 people were killed before the shooter killed himself. Witnesses say he turned the gun on himself as soon as he heard police sirens approaching.
11/5/2009 – Nidal Malik Hasan was the shooter behind the Fort Hood shooting at a military base just outside Killeen, Texas. The shooter entered the Soldier Readiness Processing Center, where personnel are disarmed, armed with a laser sighted pistol and a Smith & Wesson revolver. He killed 13 people before he was shot by a Civilian Police officer.
2/12/2010 – Amy Bishop went on a shooting rampage in classroom at the University of Alabama in Huntsville, Alabama. She killed 3 people before the Dean of the University, Debra Moriarity pushed the her out of the room and blockaded the door. She was arrested later.
1/8/2011 – Jared Lee Loughner is charged with the shooting in Tucson, Arizona that killed 6 people, including Chief U.S. District Court Judge John Roll. He was stopped when he was tackled by two civilians.
2/27/2012 – T.J. Lane entered Chardon High School in Chardon, Ohio with a handgun and started shooting. 3 students died. The shooter was chased out of the building by a teacher and apprehended by police later.
4/22/2012 – Kiarron Parker opened fire in a church parking lot in Aurora, Colorado. The shooter killed 1 person before being shot and killed by a member of the congregation who was carrying concealed.
7/20/2012 – James Holmes went into a crowded movie theater in Aurora, Colorado and opens fire with an AR-15 semi-automatic assault rifle. 12 people were killed, before the shooter surrendered to police.
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Ever heard of social security numbers?
You are already catalogued like live stock. Whoopdee do.
Yo do know you cna go to a homelwess shelter give them a fake name and that you dont remember you ssn or bday. They will make up a bday and the Social Security admnins will assign you a new SSN. The real me was off the grid years ago.
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You don't see the difference, between a random number generated for you,
or even pictures of your finger prints, is different than actual DNA??
Takes a court order to take your blood or DNA, they must show cause..
You do know this, right???
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Danny is talking gibberish.
The career criminals that continue to commit crimes are never dealt with so why should the innocents be DNA checked before they commit a crime.
I know people who are have been criminals since they were kids and they continue to commit crimes.
The courts in UK the don't send people to jail because its not deemed he right thing to do.
The whole criminals justice system would collapse if criminal's were dealt with in a proper manner the Insurance companies would be bankrupt because people would not need insurance. (lots of concerns make lots of money out of dealing with crime)
In my opinion if you have broke into more then 10 peoples houses you should be shot. (your responsible for your own actions)
If you are a drug addict who continues to commit crime you should be shot.(your responsible for our own actions)
If your a sex case you should be shot (you are responsible for your own actions)
Tell me in a single sentence what is wrong in doing people in who cannot behave themselves?
I agree Zack, and as ever gibberish is my forte, however you need to catch the burgling raping criminal damaging litle beggers in order to shoot them. I like your massacre the criminal underclass idea. The criminal justice system is at fault for not being able to properly sentence the little scrotes to death by cheese grater. But at least we could catch the serious offenders and hopefully they would get shanked in Winson Green. Apologies for lack of punctuation. I am crap at typing on my phone
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Take it however you want. It's an interesting read (if you read all of it)
http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/ (http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/)
9/6/1949 - Howard Barton Unruh went on a shooting rampage in Camden, New Jersey with a German Luger. He shot up a barber shop, a pharmacy and a tailor’s shop killing 13 people. He finally surrendered after a shoot-out with police.
8/1/1966 - Charles Joseph Whitman climbed a tower at the University of Texas in Austin, Texas and began shooting at other students and faculty with a sniper rifle. He killed 16 people before being shot and killed by police.
7/18/1984 – James Oliver Huberty shot up a McDonalds in San Ysidro, California killing 21 people before police shoot and killed him.
10/16/1991 - George Hennard entered Luby’s Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas and began indiscriminately shooting the patrons. He killed 23 people in all. He commit suicide after being cornered and wounded in a shootout with police.
11/15/1995 – Jamie Rouse used a .22-caliber semi-automatic rifle to fire indiscriminately inside Richland High School in Lynnville, Tennessee. He killed 2 people before being tackled by a football player and a coach.
2/2/1996 - Barry Loukaitis entered Frontier Middle School in Moses Lake, Washington with a rifle and two handguns. He killed 3 people before the Gym teacher, Jon Lane grabbed the rifle and wrestled the gunman to the ground.
10/1/1997 - Luke Woodham put on a trench coat to conceal a hunting rifle and entered Pearl High School in Pearl, Mississippi. He killed 3 students before vice principal Joel Myrick apprehended him with a Colt .45 without firing.
12/1/1997 - Michael Carneal brought a pistol, two rifles and two shotguns to his high school in Paducah, Kentucky and opened fire on a small prayer group killing 3 girls. His rampage was halted when he was tackled by another student.
4/24/1998 - Andrew Wurst attended a middle school dance in Edinboro, Pennsylvania intent on killing a bully but shot wildly into the crowd. He killed 1 student. James Strand lived next door. When he heard the shots he ran over with his 12 gauge shotgun and apprehended the gunman without firing.
5/21/1998 - Kipland Kinkel entered Thurston High School in Springfield, Oregon with two pistols and a semi-automatic rifle hidden under a trench coat. He opened fire killing 2 students, but while reloading a wounded student named Jacob Ryker tackled him.
4/20/1999 - Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris were the killers behind the Columbine shooting in Littleton, Colorado. The two both commit suicide after police arrived, but what many people do not know is that the school’s armed security guard and the police all stood and waited outside the library while executions happed right inside. 15 people died, not including the shooters.
7/31/1999 - Mark Barton was a daytrader who went on a shooting rampage through two day trading firms in Atlanta, Georgia. He killed 12 people in all and after a police chase he was surrounded by police at a gas station where he commit suicide.
1/16/2002 – Peter Odighizuwa opened fire with a handgun at The Appalachian School in Grundy, Virginia. 3 people were killed before the shooter was apprehended by 3 students, Mikael Gross, Ted Besen, and Tracy Bridges with handguns without firing.
8/27/2003 – Salvador Tapia entered an auto parts store in Chicago, Illinois and shot and killed 6 people with a handgun. He then waged a gunbattle with police before a SWAT team fatally wounded him.
9/24/2003 – John Jason McLaughlin brought a .22-caliber pistol to Rocori High School in Cold Spring, Minnesota. He killed 2 people before PE teacher, Mark Johnson confronted him, disarmed him, and held him in the school office for police to arrive.
2/25/2005 – David Hernandez Arroyo Sr. opened fire on a public square from the steps of a courthouse in Tyler, Texas. The shooter was armed with an assault rifle and wearing body armor. Mark Wilson fired back with a handgun, hitting the shooter but not penetrating the armor. Mark drew the shooter’s fire, and ultimately drove him off, but was fatally wounded. Mark was the only death in this incident.
3/21/2005 – Jeff Weise was a student at Red Lake High School in Red Lake, Minnesota. He killed 7 people including a teacher and a security guard. When police cornered him inside the school, he shot and killed himself.
11/8/2005 – Kenneth Bartley, Jr. brought a .22 caliber pistol to Campbell County Comprehensive High School in Jacksboro, Tennessee and killed 1 person before being disarmed by a teacher.
9/29/2006 – Eric Hainstock brought a .22 caliber revolver and a 20-gauge shotgun into Weston High School in Cazenovia, Wisconson. He killed 1 person before staff and students apprehended him and held him until the police arrived.
4/16/2007 – Seung-Hui Cho was the shooter behind the Virgina Tech shooting in Blacksburg, Virginia. Police apprehend the wrong suspect allowing the shooter to walk across campus and open fire again in a second location. He eventually commit suicide after murdering 32 people.
9/3/2008 – Isaac Zamora went on a shooting rampage in Alger, Washington that killed 6 people, including a motorist shot during a high speed chase with police. He eventually surrendered to police.
3/29/2009 – Robert Stewart went on a killing rampage armed with a rifle, and a shotgun in a nursing home in Carthage, North Carolina. He killed 8 people and was apprehended after a shootout with police.
4/3/2009 – Jiverly Wong went on a shooting rampage at a American Civic Association immigration center in Binghamton, New York where he was enrolled in a citizenship class. 13 people were killed before the shooter killed himself. Witnesses say he turned the gun on himself as soon as he heard police sirens approaching.
11/5/2009 – Nidal Malik Hasan was the shooter behind the Fort Hood shooting at a military base just outside Killeen, Texas. The shooter entered the Soldier Readiness Processing Center, where personnel are disarmed, armed with a laser sighted pistol and a Smith & Wesson revolver. He killed 13 people before he was shot by a Civilian Police officer.
2/12/2010 – Amy Bishop went on a shooting rampage in classroom at the University of Alabama in Huntsville, Alabama. She killed 3 people before the Dean of the University, Debra Moriarity pushed the her out of the room and blockaded the door. She was arrested later.
1/8/2011 – Jared Lee Loughner is charged with the shooting in Tucson, Arizona that killed 6 people, including Chief U.S. District Court Judge John Roll. He was stopped when he was tackled by two civilians.
2/27/2012 – T.J. Lane entered Chardon High School in Chardon, Ohio with a handgun and started shooting. 3 students died. The shooter was chased out of the building by a teacher and apprehended by police later.
4/22/2012 – Kiarron Parker opened fire in a church parking lot in Aurora, Colorado. The shooter killed 1 person before being shot and killed by a member of the congregation who was carrying concealed.
7/20/2012 – James Holmes went into a crowded movie theater in Aurora, Colorado and opens fire with an AR-15 semi-automatic assault rifle. 12 people were killed, before the shooter surrendered to police.
These people were crimminals you cannot stop crimminals, THEY WERE CRIMMINALS NOT NORMAL PEOPLE :old:
These people are not like you and me who are not criminals, people have to stop seeing crimminals as the same as me and you and see them for what they are outcast who should be dealt with using maximun force.
They used guns because they were crimminals the guns did not commit the crimminal act :old:
I have read that people would rather be able to defend themselves with a fire arm that be shot like a dog in the street I agree.
As I have stated before the Elites and do gooders in society don't care about the normal man in the street they are not affected by crime in anyway or form.
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who whould they execute crimalals once caught? Thats takeing money out of the "system"
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You don't see the difference, between a random number generated for you,
or even pictures of your finger prints, is different than actual DNA??
Takes a court order to take your blood or DNA, they must show cause..
You do know this, right???
No I do not see the difference at all. Your viewpoint is myopic. In addition to DNA, blood type, RH factor should all be documented too (if not done already). Hospitals should know what your blood type is as soon as you come through the emergency doors based on what is on central file.
Why are you so protective of your DNA? Are you the missing link? :lol :P
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These people were crimminals you cannot stop crimminals, THEY WERE CRIMMINALS NOT NORMAL PEOPLE :old:
These people are not like you and me who are not criminals, people have to stop seeing crimminals as the same as me and you and see them for what they are outcast who should be dealt with using maximun force.
They used guns because they were crimminals the guns did not commit the crimminal act :old:
I have read that people would rather be able to defend themselves with a fire arm that be shot like a dog in the street I agree.
As I have stated before the Elites and do gooders in society don't care about the normal man in the street they are not affected by crime in anyway or form.
They were not criminals until they went on their rampage...
See: James Holmes
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That does not answer how someone can control you with your DNA.
I do however understand one's fear of being caught in a crime.
Are you really being secure in your person by limiting police the ability to catch someone who may commit a crime against you or your's?
Here's a debate on the pluses and negatives of DNA sampling....
http://debates.juggle.com/should-governments-create-a-dna-database-of-all-citizens (http://debates.juggle.com/should-governments-create-a-dna-database-of-all-citizens)
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No I do not see the difference at all. Your viewpoint is myopic. In addition to DNA, blood type, RH factor should all be documented too (if not done already). Hospitals should know what your blood type is as soon as you come through the emergency doors based on what is on central file.
Why are you so protective of your DNA? Are you the missing link? :lol :P
Some people dont want to go spreading there DNA all over the place, its just a messy situation if you open pandora's box on this one.
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who whould they execute crimalals once caught? Thats takeing money out of the "system"
Me. For free
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Me. For free
Thats because you're not a cog in the system. Prison for profit is a good business to be in unles syoure the product.
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No I do not see the difference at all. Your viewpoint is myopic. In addition to DNA, blood type, RH factor should all be documented too (if not done already). Hospitals should know what your blood type is as soon as you come through the emergency doors based on what is on central file.
Why are you so protective of your DNA? Are you the missing link? :lol :P
Why is it so important to take DNA, if there is no suspicion of anything????
Still haven't explained that yet???
I don't want my DNA to "Be on central file".. (see, we are gettin there eventually)
Because I am not Property of the State! ROFL, is that hard to grasp for you???
This is fun, I'll be back later, have work to do..
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... but our gun crime is low enough they count every callout to a kid with a toy gun as a firearms callout :D
I think you've hit on a major part of the issue here, maybe without realizing it.
The media here in the US is extremely prejudiced when it comes to firearms (and other points as well). They will not cover "pro-gun" stances/occurrences/events, etc, except in very rare instances.
They will, however, go out of their way to cover anything anti-gun that they can scrape up and will even skew stories to fit their anti-gun agenda.
If there was a case where a rogue gunman was "handled" due to an armed citizen stepping in, the media hype would be over the rogue gunman, and how messed up our society is. They'd skim over or ignore altogether that the event had been brought under control due to an armed law-abiding citizen.
It would be a huge mistake to take what you hear through the media as gospel. It's far from balanced. If you took what you heard through the media as completely factual and balanced, you might even think that American culture was fairly violent and that armed criminals were around every corner... FAR from true.
If you want an accurate picture of American culture, crime, and firearms, you won't get it from the media.
==========
From a different perspective, I'd even go so far as to say the media is directly to blame for many of the gun-related mass murder incidents. Many of these nutcases are "looking to show the world" something, or prove something, or go out with a "big bang". The media is guaranteed to cover and blow these incidents up way out of proportion... What better way to get famous than through guaranteed media coverage???
In reality, these gun-related crimes are infrequent, scattered, and random. They are far from a realistic day-to-day threat for 99.999% of Americans. We're threatened far more by texting drivers, drunk drivers, white-tailed deer, insects, and the potential that we may fall out of bed or down a flight of stairs in our home.
The media just plain loves the hype they can create when one of these incidents occurs, and loves the idea that they could use it to push their anti-gun agenda.
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Why is it so important to take DNA, if there is no suspicion of anything????
Still haven't explained that yet???
I don't want my DNA to "Be on central file".. (see, we are gettin there eventually)
Because I am not Property of the State! ROFL, is that hard to grasp for you???
This is fun, I'll be back later, have work to do..
I see it as one more step to total control over the population..... :aok
I like Grizz he is a friend, but we differ very much in how we think about certain things....does not make him a bad person....
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who whould they execute crimalals once caught? Thats takeing money out of the "system"
I would :old:
And I would have a pot of Tea and biscuits waiting at home :old:
It would be free of charge obviously :old:
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In reality, these gun-related crimes are infrequent, scattered, and random. They are far from a realistic day-to-day threat for 99.999% of Americans. We're threatened far more by texting drivers, drunk drivers, white-tailed deer, insects, and the potential that we may fall out of bed or down a flight of stairs in our home.
:aok
My point exactly... there were about ~12000 homicides due to gun violence for a population of 300,000,000. That is about a .004% chance of being involved in gun violence.
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They were not criminals until they went on their rampage...
See: James Holmes
They are criminals before, they had the intent in them, you are responsible for you own actions :old:
No one forces people to become criminals, they become criminals because they are scum :old:
I can say these things because I do not make a living out of making excuses for scum :old:
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I only copy/pasted a portion of the article I linked. The entire article is what I was referencing, not just the list I posted. Click the link. It's an article about the amount of people killed with police intervention vs the amount of people killed when citizen(s) react.
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Criminals prefer unarmed targets - easy pickin's. Gun free zones work well for mass shooters, gives them time to chalk up a high score. INteresting thread!
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They are criminals before, they had the intent in them, you are responsible for you own actions :old:
No one forces people to become criminals, they become criminals because they are scum :old:
I can say these things because I do not make a living out of making excuses for scum :old:
not always true :aok
very narrow minded.
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Gun control laws do they work ?
What do you mean by "work"?
I guess you could say they "work" in the sense that they make if more difficult for law abiding, responsible citizens to exercise their constitutional rights.
If by "work" you mean 'do they make us safer'. Then the answer is simple... no.
A societies propensity to foster and commit violent and evil acts, has NO relation whatsoever with easy access to deadly weapons. It's basic 6th grade scientific method correlation does not equal causation.
Over the past 10 years in America guns sales have skyrocketed, while at the same time violent crime rates have dropped. I'm not making any connection here though, remember correlation does not equal causation. But it does show there is no 'more guns = more violence' link.
Look at Switzerland, a country where nearly every single household has several guns (and military issued assault rifles no less). Yet Switzerland has THE LOWEST crime rate in Europe. Again I'm not saying more guns = less crime, I'm saying there is NO link. The Swiss just seem to be a happy peaceful people. Meanwhile Norway which has some of the strictest gun regulation in the world has a nut job kill 77 people with guns and a bomb last year.
Maybe instead of focusing on the tools these evildoers use to commit these horrendous acts, we should focus on why there are so many whack job, crazy mental case nutjobs in our society. We have a serious problem in our society, all this gun control talk is ignoring the real problem, it's like giving a patient aspirin for a brain tumor.
Now admittedly I'm just a crazy gun toting white-trash redneck... but I think maybe, just maybe... we should start to try and treat the disease instead of giving a placebo for the symptoms. In the meantime I'll keep exercising my right to protect myself as I see fit.
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not always true :aok
very narrow minded.
I am wrong and the do gooders are right :old:
That is why in the West people are crimminals for greed not for need :old:
They do not steal to feed thier families they do it for self gratification.
Drug addicts steal for self gratification.
Why should law abiding people have to put up with crimminals, where is it written?
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I am wrong and the do gooders are right :old:
That is why in the West people are crimminals for greed not for need :old:
They do not steal to feed thier families they do it for self gratification.
Drug addicts steal for self gratification.
Why should law abiding people have to put up with crimminals, where is it written?
you have no clue why people do the things they do.....
I have a feeling I have met far more "criminals" then you have....
I am not saying that they don't do what you say at all...I am saying it is not always so black and white.....
I met a guy who rapped and killed his roommate and kept his dead body in his cell for 4 days....screwing it.... burning it.....his cellmate being a "criminal" had a 4 year sentence....for driving offenses......
I met a guy who was doing life for murder.....he killed the guy who broke into his house at 2 in the morning.....
I met a guy who was doing life for murder....he was being harassed by a town bully.....they were in the same car, he was in the backseat, got freaked out and grabbed the bully in a choke from the backseat and held on for over 10 minutes, killing the "bully".......
I knew a guy for a very long time the was in Juvie with me (A very non violent person) and went to prison for driving offenses they placed him in a cell with a lifer who rapped him for over 3 months.....he eventually stabbed him 36 times in the chest and neck....now he is doing 40 years....and has stabbed 5 people......
I met a guy doing 30 years for rape......he always said he was innocent....after 5 years they found the real rapist and let this guy go......
I could go on and on.....
not everything is so black and white.
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There is no information of any kind from the founding fathers to back up your assertion about the citizens being armed as a standing Army.
Actually there is . Quite a bit in fact . St. George Tuckers American Blackstone . Joseph Storys Constitutional Commentaries is another . Legal Giants of the 19th century . I think legal opinions and Supreme court decisions from this era provide the best guidance . Tucker was appointed to the federal bench by one of the founding fathers . Story the youngest Supreme Court Justice ever appointed by Madison . The only way this argument holds water is if you want the sentence "This is the founding fathers intention ." before their rulings and observations . How ever it is self evident that men that were appointed by the founding fathers to the federal bench ,and served with them on various committees' exploring the wording and structure of the constitution would have a very clear understanding of the intent of the fathers . They both clearly state that citizens have the right to protect themselves and the government has no authority to limit that right . They also clearly state that a well armed populace is the best guarantee against oppressive government . Since the infantryman's basic weapon and what was available to civilians were the same . It once again is evident they intended for the governments and populations basic arms be the same . They also clearly rule it is an individual right not a collective right to keep and bear arms . England also has given its people the right to bear arms . It just limits it severely with qualifiers . Like being protestant , or suitable to his station . Tuckers exploration of Blackstones treatise , points out how the constitution is worded ,and the intent of the framers to avoid just this kind of pitfall .
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Why do people steal from other people then?
Because they are sad and need understanding?
The majority of crimminals have numerous convictions because they are allowed to have numurous convictions :old:
How can you continually break in to peoples houses when you have been to jail for it :old:
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For everyone calling this a political thread it is not . It is a serious question regarding law and its effectiveness compared to its intent .
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Why do people steal from other people then?
Because they are sad and need understanding?
The majority of crimminals have numerous convictions because they are allowed to have numurous convictions :old:
How can you continually break in to peoples houses when you have been to jail for it :old:
many reasons.....a lot I would say is drugs....some for food.....some because they know nothing else.......
my point is only that person truly knows why they do the things they do........
in the states we have what is called "third strike" 3 felonies will give you a major sentence(don't remember exactly what it is) so you can be convicted for stealing a 10$ dollar item and get 20+ years....that is as absurd as it gets.....
your sentiment is good, but your narrow mindedness is blinding you to see that not everything is so black and white....
the only criminals that should be dealt with the way you want is child rapists/rapists....they should have their head removed....there is NO excuse for that.
every citizen should be armed.....it should be taught in school...the way math is......there would be far less crimes, if this where the case.
the biggest "criminals" in this country wear suits and ties.
edited for spelling.....durrrrrrr
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The home is the corner stone of society.
If the state is incapable and unwilling to protect this essential mechanism of society the individual has to.
If individuals do not except this fact wait for rare occasion it happens to them and see where thier liberal ideals go :old:
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not always true :aok
very narrow minded.
Always true. Some fall on hard times, drag themselves up by their bootstraps and crack on.
Some fall on hard times, can't muster the energy and then sit on their arse waiting for someone to bail them out.
Some fall on hard times and choose to expend their energies, not on gainful employment, but on theft, burglary and other nefarious activities. There is no excuse. I never came across a single thieving scrote who wasn't wearing designer strides and Adidas pumps
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if you get convicted of a crime, DNA goes on the list.
if you're a law-abiding citizen, make it voluntary.
:aok
edit: plus prints and retinal scan of course.
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If you contiually commit any crime kill them :old:
You cannot commit crime when your dead :old:
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Why is it so important to take DNA, if there is no suspicion of anything????
Still haven't explained that yet???
I don't want my DNA to "Be on central file".. (see, we are gettin there eventually)
Because I am not Property of the State! ROFL, is that hard to grasp for you???
This is fun, I'll be back later, have work to do..
It would probably be way too expensive to do anyways.
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Always true. Some fall on hard times, drag themselves up by their bootstraps and crack on.
Some fall on hard times, can't muster the energy and then sit on their arse waiting for someone to bail them out.
Some fall on hard times and choose to expend their energies, not on gainful employment, but on theft, burglary and other nefarious activities. There is no excuse. I never came across a single thieving scrote who wasn't wearing designer strides and Adidas pumps
sorry but I disagree :aok
and experience tells me different....how many "thieving scrotes" as you call them, have you actually met?
or did you see some guys that looked the part and ASSume they were thieves......
I cant stand thieves, I absolutely despise them(especially the ones that steal from friends or family)......but I have seen to many times people put in bad situations and end up doing stupid crap, because that is all they feel is left to them......
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profiling is pretty cheap already and getting cheaper very quickly. a few more years and it will be a coupla pence to sample.
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how many "thieving scrotes" as you call them, have you actually met?
I'm guessing lots, theres chav scum all over the place here.
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profiling is pretty cheap already and getting cheaper very quickly. a few more years and it will be a coupla pence to sample.
See this is how they get ya, a few tv cameras on select corners then they keep DNA samples and lastly the RFID chips go in.
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I'm guessing lots, theres chav scum all over the place here.
here too, I grew up in a city of 100,000....back when I was a kid the crime rate was high but no where near it is today...it is insane.....I moved out of the city, to raise my kids in a small town, even here the meth and "crack" is everywhere......hell we even have the "bloods and crips"...."gangsters" that never saw a getto :rofl
it seems like its the "in" thing......makes me sick to my stomach the condition of our world....the thoughtlessness of the people....the uncaring.....the ME ME ME society.....
I am ashamed I brought kids into this fluffied world.
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here too, I grew up in a city of 100,000....back when I was a kid the crime rate was high but no where near it is today...it is insane.....I moved out of the city, to raise my kids in a small town, even here the meth and "crack" is everywhere......hell we even have the "bloods and crips"...."gangsters" that never saw a getto :rofl
it seems like its the "in" thing......makes me sick to my stomach the condition of our world....the thoughtlessness of the people....the uncaring.....the ME ME ME society.....
I am ashamed I brought kids into this fluffied world.
Problem is you went too for out of the city, out in the country there is only soo much too do, drugs and make babies really.
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Problem is you went too for out of the city, out in the country there is only soo much too do, drugs and make babies really.
:rofl....and shoot guns :D
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You can judge a book by its cover its a skill you aquire the older you get :old:
Its called twice bitten 60 times shy :old:
I don't turn the other cheek i dont get paid for it, do gooders get paid for it :old:
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You can judge a book by its cover its a skill you aquire the older you get :old:
Its called twice bitten 60 times shy :old:
I don't turn the other cheek i dont get paid for it, do gooders get paid for it :old:
Yeah thats why :old: always always always get conned?
:old: Your grandmother in Nigeria you say?
:devil : Yes, she need s a hip please gimme $1,000 and I will give you it rigth back
:old: : Cash or check?
:devil Cash please. Make Money order out to 123fakenigeriancompany
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I am Uganda Prince :old:
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You can judge a book by its cover its a skill you aquire the older you get :old:
Its called twice bitten 60 times shy :old:
I don't turn the other cheek i dont get paid for it, do gooders get paid for it :old:
how old are you?
how much experience you got? dealing with the "criminal" element of your society......
people who "judge a book by the cover" are ignorant and narrow minded......who cant see beyond their own self importance.
sorry if this seems harsh.......(I am not trying to start a "fight" with ya or insult you) but I have been "judged" far too many times by narrow minded folks who think they know what a person is by looking at them......
you seem like a good guy and all... I have no issues with you...but your way of thinking is archaic and naive at best......at worst it is overly judgmental and self righteous.
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47 :old:
Paid taxes for 30 years.
Been screwed for it while scum live like kings
You help the old the needy and the disabled :old:
You get rid of perpetual crimminals.
Poor people dont like crimminals its a fact
Liberals are rarely poor :old:
I have met enough scum I am working class and dont have the financial means to be liberal or turn the other cheek
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sorry but I disagree :aok
and experience tells me different....how many "thieving scrotes" as you call them, have you actually met?
or did you see some guys that looked the part and ASSume they were thieves......
I cant stand thieves, I absolutely despise them(especially the ones that steal from friends or family)......but I have seen to many times people put in bad situations and end up doing stupid crap, because that is all they feel is left to them......
Well I served as a PC in West Mercia and Warwickshire for over 6 years. So one or two
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You don't see the difference, between a random number generated for you,
or even pictures of your finger prints, is different than actual DNA??
Takes a court order to take your blood or DNA, they must show cause..
You do know this, right???
Don't need your blood for DNA
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how old are you?
how much experience you got? dealing with the "criminal" element of your society......
people who "judge a book by the cover" are ignorant and narrow minded......who cant see beyond their own self importance.
sorry if this seems harsh.......(I am not trying to start a "fight" with ya or insult you) but I have been "judged" far too many times by narrow minded folks who think they know what a person is by looking at them......
you seem like a good guy and all... I have no issues with you...but your way of thinking is archaic and naive at best......at worst it is overly judgmental and self righteous.
You do have to judge on something and looks are the first thing. Actions or attitude come in close behind.
You'll probably be right more times than wrong. Better safe than sorry.
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We all know about "social deprevation "The class structure of crime" "Crime and Gender" "Perceptions if Crime"
and all the sociological "Chicago School" "Alienation theories"
This liberal perspective is all well and good when your middleclass and financially sheltered.
Working class people dispise crimminals and are more affected by petty crime and violence.
Liberal elites condem harsh treatment of crimminals because of guilt for thier privileded positions in society :old:
Everyone knows stealing is wrong murder is wrong rape is wrong "Everyone"
Everyone knows it is wrong and if you continue to be a crimminal you are responsible for your own actions you are NOT forced to continue to be. crimminal :old:
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Well I served as a PC in West Mercia and Warwickshire for over 6 years. So one or two
the english art of understatement :D
I know its usually reserved for army types, but thanks for your service :aok
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I used to deal with 14 yr old car thieves. We had to jump through hoops and have 'appropriate adults' there to ascertain they had been treated correctly. We had to ask them questions to determine that they knew right from wrong. My dog knows right from wrong. If he scoffs a shoe, when you come home he skulks off.He has not had a hand laid on him in his life!
But we are expected to believe that this scrote doesn't understand right from wrong, but can fill out a benefit claim form with his eyes closed??? :bhead
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I am worn out I am going to make a cup of tea and half a custard cream. :)
By the way I talk gibberish :)
I like talking gibberish, :)
I love you Ink only in a manly way though :) <S>
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47 :old:
Paid taxes for 30 years.
Been screwed for it while scum live like kings
You help the old the needy and the disabled :old:
You get rid of perpetual crimminals.
Poor people dont like crimminals its a fact
Liberals are rarely poor :old:
I have met enough scum I am working class and dont have the financial means to be liberal or turn the other cheek
would have never guessed you at 47......that should be old enough to know better.
I agree on many accounts...especially this
"You help the old the needy and the disabled" except we are barely doing that.......this world we live in if far more full of people lining their pockets on the backs of the working man......they are the biggest and most prolific criminals in this world.
Well I served as a PC in West Mercia and Warwickshire for over 6 years. So one or two
so you should know that, not everyone who "looks" the part is indeed a criminal.....
I see both sides of the fence....I lived among "criminals" for many years(much different then being a PC.... a cop? im guessing?)...even though I was far different then most of them....I can see why some did what they did.......some are like you say just "scum" others are victims......
not everything is so black and white is my point....we are all humans and make mistakes...and many times we make them over and over again.....
You do have to judge on something and looks are the first thing. Actions or attitude come in close behind.
You'll probably be right more times than wrong. Better safe than sorry.
being one that has been judged by my looks...it is hard for me to agree with this......on the other side being one that knows many "criminals" (very broad word) it is hard to disagree.....
what exactly constitutes a "criminal"? we have far to many judgmental laws...that "dictate" what others can do with their own lives and bodies.....break those laws and you are now a "criminal"
I used to deal with 14 yr old car thieves. We had to jump through hoops and have 'appropriate adults' there to ascertain they had been treated correctly. We had to ask them questions to determine that they knew right from wrong. My dog knows right from wrong. If he scoffs a shoe, when you come home he skulks off.He has not had a hand laid on him in his life!
But we are expected to believe that this scrote doesn't understand right from wrong, but can fill out a benefit claim form with his eyes closed??? :bhead
why is that 14 year old stealing cars? do you know what has happened to that 14 year old to cause him to go down that route?
does it even matter to you?
I know what the problem is...the longer time goes by the further away we are getting from God...the more depraved we become...the less caring....
I knew I should have stayed out of this. :rofl
I am worn out I am going to make a cup of tea and half a custard cream. :)
By the way I talk gibberish :)
I like talking gibberish, :)
I love you Ink only in a manly way though :) <S>
:salute
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I am worn out I am going to make a cup of tea and half a custard cream. :)
By the way I talk gibberish :)
I like talking gibberish, :)
I love you Ink only in a manly way though :) <S>
Liar, you are going to eat pie!
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Someone stole them :(
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Someone stole them :(
the only pie that is worth eating is furpie :D
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Again I apologise INK I was only writing nonsense I am really not that bothered about anything except Area 51 and why are there colonial vegatable products in my garden ie Pumpkins :(
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Seems gun control should start with Mayor Bloomberg's police force after this morning's shooting of 9 bystanders.
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Again I apologise INK I was only writing nonsense I am really not that bothered about anything except Area 51 and why are there colonial vegatable products in my garden ie Pumpkins :(
no need to apologize... I feel I should to you....I think your heart is in the right place..... :salute
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would have never guessed you at 47......that should be old enough to know better.
I agree on many accounts...especially this
"You help the old the needy and the disabled" except we are barely doing that.......this world we live in if far more full of people lining their pockets on the backs of the working man......they are the biggest and most prolific criminals in this world.
so you should know that, not everyone who "looks" the part is indeed a criminal.....
I see both sides of the fence....I lived among "criminals" for many years(much different then being a PC.... a cop? im guessing?)...even though I was far different then most of them....I can see why some did what they did.......some are like you say just "scum" others are victims......
not everything is so black and white is my point....we are all humans and make mistakes...and many times we make them over and over again.....
being one that has been judged by my looks...it is hard for me to agree with this......on the other side being one that knows many "criminals" (very broad word) it is hard to disagree.....
what exactly constitutes a "criminal"? we have far to many judgmental laws...that "dictate" what others can do with their own lives and bodies.....break those laws and you are now a "criminal"
why is that 14 year old stealing cars? do you know what has happened to that 14 year old to cause him to go down that route?
does it even matter to you?
I know what the problem is...the longer time goes by the further away we are getting from God...the more depraved we become...the less caring....
I knew I should have stayed out of this. :rofl
:salute
The 14 yr old I was thinking about was stealing cars because he thought he would look the big man with his girlfriend if he had wheels.
Another 14 yr old had seen a guy leave his keys in the gym locker room whilst the kid was looking to steal cash from peoples clothes, he stole the car instead. I nicked him and got a dressing down because there were two in the car and I cuffed the driver's right hand to his left ankle, so I could chase the second occupant. The powers that be thought I may have endangered him by incapacitating him.
My father was a chimney sweep, (the job I do now), he did it for 50 years, we were dirt broke, and not one of his 3 children ever stole a thing. My sister is a teacher, my brother holds a powerlifting record and I served in the police and still serve in the military. To be quite honest I couldn't care a damn why they steal. I didn't and we had nothing, my mother (may she rest in peace) cooked Christmas dinner on an open fire because the electricity was off.
People commit crimes for a variety of reasons, in my experience the majority of crime is theft and burglary, either to fund drugs or because its fast money, very few crimes are committed because of poverty, in my limited experience, none. Poor honest people have too much self respect
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Someone stole them :(
look in your back yard... doggie has pie dish on his head.
Danny, cuff the doggie!
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would have never guessed you at 47......that should be old enough to know better.
I agree on many accounts...especially this
"You help the old the needy and the disabled" except we are barely doing that.......this world we live in if far more full of people lining their pockets on the backs of the working man......they are the biggest and most prolific criminals in this world.
so you should know that, not everyone who "looks" the part is indeed a criminal.....
I see both sides of the fence....I lived among "criminals" for many years(much different then being a PC.... a cop? im guessing?)...even though I was far different then most of them....I can see why some did what they did.......some are like you say just "scum" others are victims......
not everything is so black and white is my point....we are all humans and make mistakes...and many times we make them over and over again.....
being one that has been judged by my looks...it is hard for me to agree with this......on the other side being one that knows many "criminals" (very broad word) it is hard to disagree.....
what exactly constitutes a "criminal"? we have far to many judgmental laws...that "dictate" what others can do with their own lives and bodies.....break those laws and you are now a "criminal"
why is that 14 year old stealing cars? do you know what has happened to that 14 year old to cause him to go down that route?
does it even matter to you?
I know what the problem is...the longer time goes by the further away we are getting from God...the more depraved we become...the less caring....
I knew I should have stayed out of this. :rofl
:salute
Dishonestly appropriating property belonging to another with the intention to permanently deprive the other of it
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would have never guessed you at 47......that should be old enough to know better.
I agree on many accounts...especially this
"You help the old the needy and the disabled" except we are barely doing that.......this world we live in if far more full of people lining their pockets on the backs of the working man......they are the biggest and most prolific criminals in this world.
so you should know that, not everyone who "looks" the part is indeed a criminal.....
I see both sides of the fence....I lived among "criminals" for many years(much different then being a PC.... a cop? im guessing?)...even though I was far different then most of them....I can see why some did what they did.......some are like you say just "scum" others are victims......
not everything is so black and white is my point....we are all humans and make mistakes...and many times we make them over and over again.....
being one that has been judged by my looks...it is hard for me to agree with this......on the other side being one that knows many "criminals" (very broad word) it is hard to disagree.....
what exactly constitutes a "criminal"? we have far to many judgmental laws...that "dictate" what others can do with their own lives and bodies.....break those laws and you are now a "criminal"
why is that 14 year old stealing cars? do you know what has happened to that 14 year old to cause him to go down that route?
does it even matter to you?
I know what the problem is...the longer time goes by the further away we are getting from God...the more depraved we become...the less caring....
I knew I should have stayed out of this. :rofl
:salute
Then 'God' should crack on and do something about it, and quit hiding behind all that free will nonsense :furious
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Dishonestly appropriating property belonging to another with the intention to permanently deprive the other of it
even that does not fit the bill...and is very narrow....yes that is a part of it.....but to me a criminal is one who has no care about others....will do whatever it is in there hearts no matter who gets hurt...has no concern for their fellow man or right or wrong..... only for themselves....will steal...kill...maim...whateve r it takes..whatever they desire......for no other reason but....money or power......or fun.....is not contrite...or have any remorse.
the question about the 14 year old was rhetorical.
Then 'God' should crack on and do something about it, and quit hiding behind all that free will nonsense :furious
He("he" is used figuratively) will....don't fret....everyone will get their just recompense......
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He("he" is used figuratively) will....don't fret....everyone will get their just recompense......
Good, before I get my recompense I would favour a few sharp words with the guy!
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Good, before I get my recompense I would favour a few sharp words with the guy!
we cant continue down this topic......we can via PM if you would like....I would. :salute
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Ardy and I both live in Oakland Ca a few blocks from each other. I own a house and he rents. It's a nice upscale area where the oakland denizins mostly don't bother to come around anymore becasue of the increased presence of OPD due to the fact that in the mid 2000's a Whole Foods was put in just below my house with armed guard patrols during open hours. The armed guards are due to the 7-11 and parolee half way hotel across the street from the Whole Foods and all of the aggressive pan handlers who would have harrased the cool people sitting out on the sidewalk sipping their lattes and eating lunch arguing what utopia looks like.
Before Ardy and Whole Foods moved into my neigborhood along with the armed gaurds and increased OPS presence. The Jr. High in my block was where the local gang bangers little brothers went to school before moving up to full scale gang banging. On weekends they would steal bycicles from people cycling around Lake Merrit as a rite of passage. They passed in front of my house twice a day "being bad" in Li'l Gangsta groups. Peeing on everyons bushes, front doors and showing me and the neighbors the toys they carried by cutting up our bushes. Every June at Lake Merrit was the Juneteenth festival to which all of the gangs from the SF Bay area congrigated and fought with each other, smashed store windows and pee'd and p@@ped in eveyones bushes and driveways they could around the Lake.
In 1998 I had reason to carry because in a 2 month period where I worked in richmond 5 robberies of employees from companies in my tech park took place as the employees were going to their cars after dark. Two were murdered. I often worked until after 10 pm in my company's data center. I never had to face a robbery in richmond but, becasue I was carrying I stopped an assult at my house by a knife weilding assailent I caught tresspassing when I had to go home to get something during the day. Don't cha just love Utopia??
Homes are more likely to be robbery and break in targets than apartments and the only reason the aggressive pan handlers and smash and grab homeless that used to plauge my neighborhood are gone is becasue of increased OPD presence and armed guards due to Whole Foods being a tax revenue golden Goose to the Oakland city counsel. Especially in this economy the city counsel wants to keep Whole Foods generating taxes. Our little utopia is protected by armed guards who can only keep crime at bay on their property.
We still have crime right here above the Whole Foods. The building at the end of my court is being renovated and one of the contractor's work truck with every tool he owns was stolen last month. Two weeks ago we ran off two eligal aliens from stealing fuel from my wifes subaru parked on the street. We caught them in broad daylight using a screw driver to jimmy her gas cover. They ran off leaving their bucket and a neighbors water hose they cut apart to siphon the gass with. Oh yes and petty crime in Oakland is on the rise by illegal immigrants who cannot find work and won't self deport we found out after fileing the police report and talking to the officers.
Yes gents Ardy lives in a nice little safe utopia with increased OPD patrols becasue of the golden goose the city councel wants to protect. Not Ardy. And thats still not enough as the economy gets worse. At least all that Gangsta crap is over with and I got through it without having to shoot anyone during a home invasion. Ardy missed all of those days in our utopian neighborhood.
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Skuzzy Must be on Vacation :rofl
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Bustr,
FYI, I have lived in these parts since 1988, long before whole foods, please get your facts straight before you try and typecast me.
And I don't live next to 'whole paycheck', I live several miles away from it, far from its 'armed guards of protection'...
And yes, there is lots of crime, remember the home invasions where people would hide in bushes and knock you out when you came home?
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we cant continue down this topic......we can via PM if you would like....I would. :salute
Of course
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even that does not fit the bill...and is very narrow....yes that is a part of it.....but to me a criminal is one who has no care about others....will do whatever it is in there hearts no matter who gets hurt...has no concern for their fellow man or right or wrong..... only for themselves....will steal...kill...maim...whateve r it takes..whatever they desire......for no other reason but....money or power......or fun.....is not contrite...or have any remorse.
the question about the 14 year old was rhetorical.
He("he" is used figuratively) will....don't fret....everyone will get their just recompense......
What you described above is a Sociopath. They become a criminal when they commit a criminal act.
Fred
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What you described above is a Sociopath. They become a criminal when they commit a criminal act.
Fred
Or in other words, a scrote. I went to a burglary in progress in Shropshire, two kids had broken into a beautiful house whilst the owners were on holiday. Took a little cash and some jewellery, and then smashed the place up. Defecated and urinated everywhere, and their excuse was that the "rich bastards" deserved it.
CS is short term instant justice
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Friday night so here goes!
Brits ain't got no guns anyway.. Who cares what they say???
(edit) :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Friday night so here goes!
Brits ain't got no guns anyway.. Who cares what they say???
(edit) :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Quite :huh :aok
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look in your back yard... doggie has pie dish on his head.
Danny, cuff the doggie!
Only cuffs I have access to now have pink fur on them :huh
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Friday night so here goes!
Brits ain't got no guns anyway.. Who cares what they say???
(edit) :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
There is a gun shop less than a mile from me.
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Bustr,
FYI, I have lived in these parts since 1988, long before whole foods, please get your facts straight before you try and typecast me.
And I don't live next to 'whole paycheck', I live several miles away from it, far from its 'armed guards of protection'...
And yes, there is lots of crime, remember the home invasions where people would hide in bushes and knock you out when you came home?
Yes Ardy and that's part of why I carry along with owning property and my wife. Guess you didn't receive the updates from the focus meetings about Whole Foods as the city negotiated to get Whole Foods in here. My home is on top of their parking lot so their lawyers made sure I was aware of everything. Increased OPD presence in even your area to cut down on pass through gang bangers was a condition which seems to have payed off. Along with the city granting a waver for the armed guards as a deterent to the pan handlers who come from all over the bay area via BART getting off at 19th street. Who other wise would have harrased the customers using the sidewalk lunch area driving down tax revenues along with driving out Whole Foods.
I've lived here long before 88 Ardy. Crime wise in general Whole Foods had been the best thing for "our" local area opposed to on a seasonal basis having to evict petty criminals from my property and help my neighbors with theirs without killing any of them. Becasue the 7-11 and flop house behind it was a magnet for petty criminals and Lake Merrit was a gang banger day care center during the summer. Wilson and Harris tollerated alot out of their constituency including a high crime rate. Both of their wives bought their caddilacs with taxpayer funds from the dealership that used to be where the Whole Foods is now. Back then we even had a few hookers trolling the area before the Vietnames moved in. Utopia...yeppers.
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Yes Ardy and that's part of why I carry along with owning property and my wife. Guess you didn't receive the updates from the focus meetings about Whole Foods as the city negotiated to get Whole Foods in here. My home is on top of their parking lot so their lawyers made sure I was aware of everything. Increased OPD presence in even your area to cut down on pass through gang bangers was a condition which seems to have payed off. Along with the city granting a waver for the armed guards as a deterent to the pan handlers who come from all over the bay area via BART getting off at 19th street. Who other wise would have harrased the customers using the sidewalk lunch area driving down tax revenues along with driving out Whole Foods.
I've lived here long before 88 Ardy. Crime wise in general Whole Foods had been the best thing for "our" local area opposed to on a seasonal basis having to evict petty criminals from my property and help my neighbors with theirs without killing any of them. Becasue the 7-11 and flop house behind it was a magnet for petty criminals and Lake Merrit was a gang banger day care center during the summer. Wilson and Harris tollerated alot out of their constituency including a high crime rate. Both of their wives bought their caddilacs with taxpayer funds from the dealership that used to be where the Whole Foods is now. Back then we even had a few hookers trolling the area before the Vietnames moved in. Utopia...yeppers.
Bustr,
instead of trying to debate the issue, you chose to typecast me (along with the negative feelings you carry with that stereotype) to who you imagine I am, and possible troll me into saying more about myself. You don't know me. You had nothing else and felt boxed, attack the messenger.
I made the mistake of even telling you what little you know, when we flew together, if I knew you were going to publish it on the internet, esp on a public forum. Sorry Hilbly if you felt I did the same to you earlier when I talked generally about some counties in Oregon.
Delete the information about where we live.... this is a public forum.
EDIT: I'd be more than happy to talk to you in private about Oakland and its seedy side, corrupt politicians etc.. but not here, not in respect to our home addresses.
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I guess this thread, is officially dead,
I'm Outta here, :bolt:
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I guess this thread, is officially dead,
I'm Outta here, :bolt:
Got more Doomsday preparations to make?
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Getting back to the original question, and looking into the pondering, gun laws do work. But only that far, they never work as a complete insurance against getting killed by a bullet.
Looking at mass murders is one thing. Looking coldly at pure statistics, the USA sticks out as the western country with the highest percentage of capital crime, - murder, rape, armed robbery. The average of murder is actually about the same in the rural parts (alltogether) in the USA, as in London.
The answer IMHO is possibly that the USA is just full of guns. The access is easy, conceilable weapons widely allowed, and even more high powered weapons which have all the potential of hosing down a whole classroom.
Putting some regulations into it will take a long time to work. If I recall it correctly the British tightened their rules some while ago, and offered people to turn in weapons of no use with no questions asked, maybe there was even a bonus in it.
There is perhaps a second answer. It's just the wild old culture of a "gunland"
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Seems gun control should start with Mayor Bloomberg's police force after this morning's shooting of 9 bystanders.
you mean the law abiding citizen that open fire and killed 2 and shot 9 bystanders?
semp
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A government that can't trust it's people with guns can't be trusted.
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Only cuffs I have access to now have pink fur on them :huh
I will post them back to later danny :old:
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I will post them back to later danny :old:
Dunner want 'em if the fur's all gummed up :uhoh
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A government that can't trust it's people with guns can't be trusted.
sunfan I believe in our right to bear arms. however this is food for thought: a great deal of mass shootings in the us are committed by people that have no criminal history, in other words law abiding citizens who exercised their right to bear arms. which sometimes makes me wonder who really should have the right to bear arms, however I dont see a way to really know for sure who shouldnt be able to bear arms.
semp
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you mean the law abiding citizen that open fire and killed 2 and shot 9 bystanders?
semp
That's brilliant. :rolleyes:
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That's brilliant. :rolleyes:
well really was he a gang banger? a criminal? organized crime? a cartel member? can you explain which category he falls in? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
semp
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Got more Doomsday preparations to make?
Doomsday??? You are the only one who mentioned it..
When???
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you mean the law abiding citizen that open fire and killed 2 and shot 9 bystanders?
semp
The gunman killed one. The police killed the gunman. All 9 wounded were hit by police gunfire. Many police forces do not train with their firearms all that much. This may be part of the problem or none of it in this case. The area where this went down is a very heavy pedestrian traffic area.
I do think there was a lot of shots fired to have hit the turd only 3 times.
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sunfan I believe in our right to bear arms. however this is food for thought: a great deal of mass shootings in the us are committed by people that have no criminal history, in other words law abiding citizens who exercised their right to bear arms. which sometimes makes me wonder who really should have the right to bear arms, however I dont see a way to really know for sure who shouldnt be able to bear arms.
semp
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin
:rolleyes:
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The gunman killed one. The police killed the gunman. All 9 wounded were hit by police gunfire. Many police forces do not train with their firearms all that much. This may be part of the problem or none of it in this case. The area where this went down is a very heavy pedestrian traffic area.
I do think there was a lot of shots fired to have hit the turd only 3 times.
This was a huge screw-up...
The number of mistakes made by these two officers was breathtaking. How they approached the gunman was the first. Rushing at him in plain sight, on a very busy street... Stupid, stupid, stupid. The second was that they were approaching a man who had just shot down another guy, and their weapons are holstered! The bad guy pulls out his 1911 auto and points it in the direction of the officers and they still have their pistols holstered. Had the gunman wanted, he could have gotten off several aimed rounds before these cops could clear leather and attempt to return fire. Now in a panic, both officers grab their pistols and fire. 16 rounds in about 3 seconds. 9 rounds miss and 9 bystanders are wounded as a result.
No doubt that these officers had to defend themselves, but they initiated this with:
1) No clue what they were dealing with
2) Really lousy tactics and poor judgment
3) Unprepared for a gunfight
4) Panicked spray and pray shooting
One cop did at least one thing right... He moved laterally to engage the gunman, turned sideways and offered the smallest possible target. Likely more instinct than training. The other officer took cover behind a potted shrub. He was the one likely responsible for most of the bystander wounds (his angle was towards the fleeing people on the sidewalk). However, that is speculation and a forensic investigation will reveal who was responsible for the various civilian injuries.
What does this tell me? NYPD training isn't up to snuff. These guys did everything wrong and by the grace of God, didn't get killed as a result. Going to the range once a year, shooting a box of ammo at paper 7 yards distant to stay qualified isn't training. Shooting skills are perishable. 30 minutes a year is worthless. Two hours of combat shooting practice every month is barely adequate. Tactical training... When to engage, when to just follow, when to move in, the rank and file get little to no tactical training of any value. As an example, I've spent a fair amount of time working with SPEC OPs teams developing hardware for their weapons. These guys would have taken down this guy without collateral victims. Double-tap to the head; fight over.
Sure, we cannot expect the rank and file cop to be trained like a SEAL, or have skill levels remotely close. However, the cops should be trained well enough that they don't make these kind of mistakes and have the good sense to pick a better location to attempt to apprehend an armed killer. Especially when the killer was not an immediate threat to anyone on the street. Mental training is as important as actual range work. These two cops were not mentally prepared for what was about to come down. Holstered firearms tells us that very clearly. When you approach a suspected gunman, you had better have weapons out and sights on the perp.
NYPD, heck, all police departments need to examine what happened today and learn from it.
Here's the video... Those of you who are or have been in law enforcement, and those with military training, will recognize the mistakes.
http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/empire-state-shooting-graphic-1.3926199 (http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/empire-state-shooting-graphic-1.3926199)
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:rolleyes:
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
sorry but your rollseye made me laugh....obviously you don't want your freedom and would rather be a sheep than a man....let me guess the first sign of trouble you call 911....oh come save me....help me....I need help......
take the responsibility of YOUR life into YOU'RE hands...don't expect someone else to came save you.
but then again I guess this world needs all kinds....so never mind continue being a sheep.
that quote is one of the best there is. :aok
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Getting back to the original question, and looking into the pondering, gun laws do work. But only that far, they never work as a complete insurance against getting killed by a bullet.
Looking at mass murders is one thing. Looking coldly at pure statistics, the USA sticks out as the western country with the highest percentage of capital crime, - murder, rape, armed robbery. The average of murder is actually about the same in the rural parts (alltogether) in the USA, as in London.
The answer IMHO is possibly that the USA is just full of guns. The access is easy, conceilable weapons widely allowed, and even more high powered weapons which have all the potential of hosing down a whole classroom.
Putting some regulations into it will take a long time to work. If I recall it correctly the British tightened their rules some while ago, and offered people to turn in weapons of no use with no questions asked, maybe there was even a bonus in it.
There is perhaps a second answer. It's just the wild old culture of a "gunland"
What if I told you that statistics say that right to carry laws , meaning less gun control lowers all violent crimes ? John Lott More guns less crime .
Here is his blog you can access some of his papers that go into his book .
http://www.johnrlott.com/
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:rolleyes:
Rolling your eyes at Ben Franklin or me ?
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin
Franklin's actual quote was: "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
This has been mangled by many over the years... Still a valid statement though, especially today.
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Rolling your eyes at Ben Franklin or me ?
I'm rolling my eyes at those who use this quote to argue against any and all forms of law that "take away your liberty". I'm glad people are not allowed to carry whatever they want on planes, or buy C4 or a flamethrower or heroin at a local WalMart, or carry assault rifles around on the street, but that's just me. My point is that there is room for argument on both sides and that a quote doesn't invalidate any and all forms of "security at the cost of liberty."
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I'm rolling my eyes at those who use this quote to argue against any and all forms of law that "take away your liberty". I'm glad people are not allowed to carry whatever they want on planes, or buy C4 or a flamethrower or heroin at a local WalMart, or carry assault rifles around on the street, but that's just me. My point is that there is room for argument on both sides.
Don't worry TJ, Bustr will just call you an ignorant wealthy liberal, and then tell you how before you lived there things were worse. You can't argue with fear... its irrational.
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This was a huge screw-up...
The number of mistakes made by these two officers was breathtaking. How they approached the gunman was the first. Rushing at him in plain sight, on a very busy street... Stupid, stupid, stupid. The second was that they were approaching a man who had just shot down another guy, and their weapons are holstered! The bad guy pulls out his 1911 auto and points it in the direction of the officers and they still have their pistols holstered. Had the gunman wanted, he could have gotten off several aimed rounds before these cops could clear leather and attempt to return fire. Now in a panic, both officers grab their pistols and fire. 16 rounds in about 3 seconds. 9 rounds miss and 9 bystanders are wounded as a result.
No doubt that these officers had to defend themselves, but they initiated this with:
1) No clue what they were dealing with
2) Really lousy tactics and poor judgment
3) Unprepared for a gunfight
4) Panicked spray and pray shooting
One cop did at least one thing right... He moved laterally to engage the gunman, turned sideways and offered the smallest possible target. Likely more instinct than training. The other officer took cover behind a potted shrub. He was the one likely responsible for most of the bystander wounds (his angle was towards the fleeing people on the sidewalk). However, that is speculation and a forensic investigation will reveal who was responsible for the various civilian injuries.
What does this tell me? NYPD training isn't up to snuff. These guys did everything wrong and by the grace of God, didn't get killed as a result. Going to the range once a year, shooting a box of ammo at paper 7 yards distant to stay qualified isn't training. Shooting skills are perishable. 30 minutes a year is worthless. Two hours of combat shooting practice every month is barely adequate. Tactical training... When to engage, when to just follow, when to move in, the rank and file get little to no tactical training of any value. As an example, I've spent a fair amount of time working with SPEC OPs teams developing hardware for their weapons. These guys would have taken down this guy without collateral victims. Double-tap to the head; fight over.
Sure, we cannot expect the rank and file cop to be trained like a SEAL, or have skill levels remotely close. However, the cops should be trained well enough that they don't make these kind of mistakes and have the good sense to pick a better location to attempt to apprehend an armed killer. Especially when the killer was not an immediate threat to anyone on the street. Mental training is as important as actual range work. These two cops were not mentally prepared for what was about to come down. Holstered firearms tells us that very clearly. When you approach a suspected gunman, you had better have weapons out and sights on the perp.
NYPD, heck, all police departments need to examine what happened today and learn from it.
Here's the video... Those of you who are or have been in law enforcement, and those with military training, will recognize the mistakes.
http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/empire-state-shooting-graphic-1.3926199 (http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/empire-state-shooting-graphic-1.3926199)
Agreed 100%....my father was a weapons and tactics instructor for the State Police....God rest his soul, I would love to know what he thought of this incedent. My thoughts are it would have been used to teach his students what not to do.
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Don't worry TJ, Bustr will just call you an ignorant wealthy liberal, and then tell you how before you lived there things were worse. You can't argue with fear... its irrational.
An ignorant wealthy liberal would be a compliment. I'm just a government sheep, being controlled via my DNA samples. If I'm ever in trouble, I just "Bahhh" and a drone strike takes out the threat.
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As a younger kid I'm only 23 now i had a shotgun rifle and 22 pistol in my room from the age of 12 or so. We my family and i live way out in the middle of no where we have guys just down the road a mile or so who deal drugs and lord knows what else. For me to rely on someone else For the defense of my family in an emergency is silly it would be close to half an hour before any type of help arrived. Even from a young age suspicious looking or acting vehicles or people were watched if they seemed alright or someone e know from down the road you went on with your day if not then you kept an eye out. dos are they were just regular folks enjoying the country but if your always on the look sometimes that's enough to save you.now some folks would call the paranoid but i call it always expecting the unexpected. Gun laws Will never stop the criminal fully. And only in extreme cases like Britain Will it even slow him and i doubt even that. So in these backwoods areas where help might be way too far away i must help my self. I do this by being better armed more proficient and more aware of my surroundings than the people looking for a target. Now i hope i never have to deal with a situation like this. But as my father has always said it better have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
PS sorry for the crappy everything i suck on this phone in the field right now...
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An ignorant wealthy liberal would be a compliment. I'm just a government sheep, being controlled via my DNA samples. If I'm ever in trouble, I just "Bahhh" and a drone strike takes out the threat.
So, the Murder of American Citizens, via Military Means, without trial or jury or even a hearing, is all good Huh???
THIS, is the real threat to the future life and happyness of our progeny..
A greater threat than any dope dealer, or street thug, or crazed gunman...
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An ignorant wealthy liberal would be a compliment. I'm just a government sheep, being controlled via my DNA samples. If I'm ever in trouble, I just "Bahhh" and a drone strike takes out the threat.
see thats the sad part...you are a willing sheep :aok
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Thanks for the link. I was amazed at how brief the shooting actually was. You said 16 rounds in about 3 seconds (seemed even shorter). I assume they were all fired by the NYPD officers (not sure).
I do believe the officer standing, and closest to the gunman, was the most deliberate and probably got the job done. I am certainly untrained and only watched the small clip and at full speed with no sound (There is no slow motion when reacting to a life and death situation).
It was tragic that so many innocent bystanders were harmed, and a life was taken, but with the crazy, CRAZY world events, just in the past few weeks, no one can be too cautious when confronting armed suspects. In retrospect, the officers who seemed to be racing to the scene could have been more "cautious" even without their guns drawn, it looked as if they only identified the gunman AFTER he pulled his gun (might need to watch again to confirm).
Prior to that, to the untrained eye, the guy just looked like he was another office worker on break, with one BIG exception. He was carrying a coat of some kind (to conceal the weapon maybe), while the weather did not appear to warrant such outer wear.
You brought out some clear points and the NYPD will have to answer to them. You seem to be aware that the reaction to the situation by the officers correlates to their training and experience. I would like to think that I am going both sides of the aisle when I say this. Give these men and women the pay they deserve, but tie this pay to incentives for training that help them come home to their families and protect ours professionally.
Remember the guy who was repeatedly shot for displaying his wallet? :uhoh Although this was no wallet, I would bet it was just about the same reaction time. Let me be clear of where I stand on what I saw. The officer who stood tall, 6 feet away from the gunman, has huge cohonees, and just improved the IQ of the planet a little if he took that nutcase out.
Edited to include: In response to Widewing's excellent comment on the Empire State shooting and security cam footage.
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An ignorant wealthy liberal would be a compliment. I'm just a government sheep, being controlled via my DNA samples. If I'm ever in trouble, I just "Bahhh" and a drone strike takes out the threat.
Thank you for your service.
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So, the Murder of American Citizens, via Military Means, without trial or jury or even a hearing, is all good Huh???
THIS, is the real threat to the future life and happyness of our progeny..
A greater threat than any dope dealer, or street thug, or crazed gunman...
see thats the sad part...you are a willing sheep :aok
I didn't think it was possible to read that far into a joke, but I've been surprised before. "Gubment Baaaahhd."
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I didn't think it was possible to read that far into a joke, but I've been surprised before. "Gubment Baaaahhd."
call it what you want...every post I have read from you in this topic and the other one is about letting them control you...and you being a ok with it......
I don't own guns....not a "gun guy" but I will die long before I allow them to control me and my life.
every person in this country should be armed, it should be part of the school curriculum..... how many robberies or burglaries or mass killing would there be if the thief's/psycho's knew every time they tried to rob someone or go off and kill a bunch of people...would there actually be?
sorry if I was mean.....or insulted you, that was wrong.
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Franklin's actual quote was: "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
This has been mangled by many over the years... Still a valid statement though, especially today.
Actually he said it both ways . Either quote is correct . I will find the book I got it from .
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I don't own guns....not a "gun guy" but I will die long before I allow them to control me and my life.
Is there some conspiracy I'm missing out on? As far as I can tell, there is no loudspeaker in my house where the government yells their orders to me.
every person in this country should be armed, it should be part of the school curriculum..... how many robberies or burglaries or mass killing would there be if the thief's/psycho's knew every time they tried to rob someone or go off and kill a bunch of people...would there actually be?
Thankfully, this will never come to fruition. We don't live in the Wild West.
sorry if I was mean.....or insulted you, that was wrong.
My skin's not that thin.
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I'm rolling my eyes at those who use this quote to argue against any and all forms of law that "take away your liberty". I'm glad people are not allowed to carry whatever they want on planes, or buy C4 or a flamethrower or heroin at a local WalMart, or carry assault rifles around on the street, but that's just me. My point is that there is room for argument on both sides and that a quote doesn't invalidate any and all forms of "security at the cost of liberty."
What has all of that to do with gun control or the 2nd amendment ? Funny thing is statistics are overwhelmingly on the side of fewer gun control laws leading to lower violent crime rates . The legal giants of the 19th century all clearly stated that the 2nd amendment was an individual right that could not be abridged . You have to go all the way to the dawn of the 20th century to find a legal opinion to the contrary . I have more faith in individuals that were contemporaries appointed to the federal bench by the founding fathers , opinion than anyone else s . Upon what do you base the opinion that you are safer with more control than less ? States with right to carry laws have lower gross and per capita violent crimes than those with out . A fact I just learned in the last few days .
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Thank you for your service.
What service was/is he in Ardy ? I have never met anyone that has sworn to support and defend the constitution in favor of limiting it . Until now ? I can't remember who had the loud speaker in my home comment . They don't do it like that they use things like administrative rules . You know those things that carry the weight and penalty of law but provide you no legal protection or recourse .
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maybe I misunderstood tj.... I read his post at the airport. Is he serving or is he being sarcastic?
I read it as he was
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There are times i wish it was the wild west.....where the strength of your word and your knowledge or the world around you was the only thing keeping you in one piece. Where when you shot a man in self defense that for the most part would be the end of it. The times of the mountain men and the early Texas rangers...
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maybe I misunderstood tj.... I read his post at the airport. Is he serving or is he being sarcastic?
I read it as he was
Sarcasm is one of my most endearing qualities. No, I am not serving. Sorry if I gave that impression.
Hlbly, was I the only one who saw this?
Hmm so I guess the people in..
Louisiana--Rank: 1; Household Gun Ownership: 45.6 percent; Gun Death Rate: 18.03 per 100,000.
Wyoming--Rank: 2; Household Gun Ownership: 62.8 percent; Gun Death Rate: 17.64 per 100,000.
Alabama--Rank: 3; Household Gun Ownership: 57.2 percent; Gun Death Rate: 17.63 per 100,000.
Montana--Rank: 4; Household Gun Ownership: 61.4 percent; Gun Death Rate: 17.03 per 100,000.
Mississippi--Rank: 5; Household Gun Ownership: 54.3 percent; Gun Death Rate: 16.50 per 100,000.
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There are times i wish it was the wild west.....where the strength of your word and your knowledge or the world around you was the only thing keeping you in one piece. Where when you shot a man in self defense that for the most part would be the end of it. The times of the mountain men and the early Texas rangers...
somehow I think that if you shot anybody self defense or not his family would come after you to avenge the 'family honor". or if you proved to be a man of speed then others would come after you trying to claim the title.
semp
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Mexico has some of the strictest gun control laws around - it works really really well.
(Also, look at Norway. 69 kids dead on an island because noone had a gun, that could have been stopped)
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There are times i wish it was the wild west.....where the strength of your word and your knowledge or the world around you was the only thing keeping you in one piece. Where when you shot a man in self defense that for the most part would be the end of it. The times of the mountain men and the early Texas rangers...
What's wrong with a world where an argument with your neighbor could turn into the next Hatfield's and Mccoy's?
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Mexico has some of the strictest gun control laws around - it works really really well.
And also one of the most corrupt police forces in the world.
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And also one of the most corrupt police forces.
My point remains valid.
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My point remains valid.
Umm, no it doesn't. Laws are useless when you can just bribe your way out of them.
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Umm, no it doesn't.
Yes it does.
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Yes it does.
Laws are useless when you can bribe your way out of them. For the point to be valid, you would have to believe that the US and Mexico are similar enough, especially with regards to the legal system, to compare the effectiveness of gun laws.
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:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
sorry but your rollseye made me laugh....obviously you don't want your freedom and would rather be a sheep than a man....let me guess the first sign of trouble you call 911....oh come save me....help me....I need help......
take the responsibility of YOUR life into YOU'RE hands...don't expect someone else to came save you.
but then again I guess this world needs all kinds....so never mind continue being a sheep.
that quote is one of the best there is. :aok
Agreed
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Wow a political thread. Skuzzdusky must be on vacation. :noid
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I'm glad people are not allowed to carry whatever they want on planes
Prepare to be terrified, I am allowed to carry WHATEVER I want on an airplane WHENEVER and WHEREVER I want. (So can the other 600,000 pilots in the United States)
Thoroughly horrifying, I know.
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Prepare to be terrified, I am allowed to carry WHATEVER I want on an airplane WHENEVER and WHEREVER I want. (So can the other 600,000 pilots in the United States)
Thoroughly horrifying, I know.
Yes only the pilot and the criminals will have what they wanted.
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Yes only the pilot and the criminals will have what they wanted.
I want some pumpkin pie, so I do not have what I want!
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Prepare to be terrified, I am allowed to carry WHATEVER I want on an airplane WHENEVER and WHEREVER I want. (So can the other 600,000 pilots in the United States)
Thoroughly horrifying, I know.
Hold on there Jethro. Do you still believe that Mexico and the US are similar enough, especially with regards to the legal system, to be able to compare the effectiveness of gun laws, or any laws for that matter? Let's please deal with these things one at a time, otherwise I get confused and we go in circles, so let's just try to clear this one point up before we move on.
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Hold on there Jethro.
LOL. 3 posts until I got called a name.
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LOL. 3 posts until I got called a name.
Never seen the Beverly Hillbillies I presume.
Lighten up, Francis. Oops, guess I called you another name. :eek:
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Mexico has some of the strictest gun control laws around - it works really really well.
(Also, look at Norway. 69 kids dead on an island because noone had a gun, that could have been stopped)
this is nra bs. anybody can own guns in mexico, they only thing that they cannot legally own is those which are reserved for the army such as fully automatic or handguns higher than a 9mm or something like that.
also look at the usa to see how good the guns are. 9 shot by police trying to stop a single individual. you think the police would be the ones trained for a shooting. dont forget also this one, navy vet shot by police in her own backyard.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/family-navy-vet-shot-startled-deputy-seeks-answers-193729306.html
semp
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Spongebob even used it. :rofl :rofl :rofl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXVd44X9R20
You got me!
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I'm rolling my eyes at those who use this quote to argue against any and all forms of law that "take away your liberty". I'm glad people are not allowed to carry whatever they want on planes, or buy C4 or a flamethrower or heroin at a local WalMart, or carry assault rifles around on the street, but that's just me. My point is that there is room for argument on both sides and that a quote doesn't invalidate any and all forms of "security at the cost of liberty."
Pathetic and weak. I thought you were up for intelligent debate as opposed to making your points with ridiculous extremes that don't represent any reality.
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Pathetic and weak. I thought you were up for intelligent debate as opposed to making your points with ridiculous extremes that don't represent any reality.
I'd say those examples are just as extreme as using a quote to invalidate any and all forms of security at the cost of liberty.
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Sarcasm is one of my most endearing qualities. No, I am not serving. Sorry if I gave that impression.
Hlbly, was I the only one who saw this?
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=272929 Check out this paper TJ . He is very transparent in his sources and methodology . Where did those stats come from ardy ?
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Wow a political thread. Skuzzdusky must be on vacation. :noid
A legal thread .a fairly polite one too .
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Sarcasm is one of my most endearing qualities. No, I am not serving. Sorry if I gave that impression.
Hlbly, was I the only one who saw this?
Okay where did the stats come from ? If this is from the VPC then I can tell you they won't even make clear how the assembled the stats . I am a little unsure of that . This guy Lott tells it all sources methodology variables .
Lott
More Guns Equal Less Violent Crime
by Professor John R. Lott, Jr.
University of Chicago Law School
1111 East 60th Street, Chicago IL 60637
For the Democratic Party the solution to violent crime is clear - more regulation of guns. The convention speeches by James and Sarah Brady were filled with moving stories of their personal suffering. While the impacts described on both sides of the issue do exist, the crucial question underlying all gun-control laws is: What is their net effect? Are more lives lost or saved? Do they deter crime or encourage it? Anecdotal evidence obviously cannot resolve this debate. To provide a more systematic answer, I recently completed a study of one type of gun control law-laws on concealed handguns, also known as "shall-issue" laws. Thirty-one states give their citizens the right to carry concealed handguns if they do not have a criminal record or a history of significant mental illness. My study, with David Mustard, a graduate student in economics at the University of Chicago, analyzed the FBI's crime statistics for all 3,054 American counties from 1977 to 1992. Our findings are dramatic. Our most conservative estimates show that by adopting shall-issue laws, states reduced murders by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%. If those states that did not permit concealed handguns in 1992 had permitted them back then, citizens might have been spared approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and 12,000 robberies. To put it even more simply Criminals, we found, respond rationally to deterrence threats.
The benefit of concealed handguns are not limited to just those who carry them or use them in self-defense. The very fact that these weapons are concealed keeps criminals uncertain as to whether a potential victim will be able to defend himself with lethal force. The possibility that anyone might be carrying a gun makes attacking everyone less attractive; unarmed citizens in effect "free-ride" on their pistol packing fellows. Our study further found that while some criminals avoid potentially violent crimes after concealed-handgun laws were passed, they do not necessarily give up the criminal life altogether. Some switch to crimes in which the rise of confronting an armed victim is much lower. Indeed, the downside of concealed-weapons laws is that while Violent crime rates fall, property offenses like larceny (e.g. stealing from unattended automobiles or vending machines) and auto theft rise. This is certainly a substitution that the country can live with.
Our study also provided some surprising information. While support for strict gun-control laws usually bas been strongest in large cities, where crime rates are highest, that's precisely where right-to-carry laws have produced the largest drops in violent crimes. For example, in counties with populations of more than 200,000 people, concealed handgun laws produced an average drop in murder rates of more than 13%. The half of the counties with the highest rape rates saw that crime drop by more than 7%.
Concealed handguns also appear to help women more than men. Murder rates decline when either sex carries more guns, but the effect is especially pronounced when women are considered separately. An additional woman carrying a concealed handgun reduces the murder rate for women by about three to four times more than an additional armed man reduces the murder rate for men. Victims of violent crime are generally physically weaker than the criminals who prey on them. Allowing a woman to defend herself with a concealed handgun makes a larger difference in her ability to defend herself than the change created by providing a man with a handgun. Guns are the great equalizer between the weak and the vicious. At the Democratic convention, President Clinton played up his proposed expansion of the 1994 Brady Law, which by making it harder for men convicted of domestic violence to obtain guns is designed to reduce crime against women. Our study is the first to provide direct empirical evidence of the Brady Law's effect on crime rates and we found just the opposite result: The law's implementation is associated with more aggravated assaults and rapes. Mrs. Brady's exaggerated estimates of the number of felons denied access to guns are a poor measure of the law's impact on crime rates.
We also collected data on whether owners of concealed handguns are more likely to use them in committing violent crimes. The rarity of these incidents is reflected in Florida's statistics: More than 300,000 concealed- handgun licenses were issued between October 1, 1987 and December 31, 1945, but only five violent crimes involving permitted pistols were committed in this period. And none of these resulted in fatalities. That's of 1% misuse rate for permitted pistols in an eight year period or LESS than 1/1000 of 1% misuse rate per year.
What about minor disputes such as traffic accidents? Are legal owners of concealed handguns more likely to use them in such situations? In 31 states, some of which have had concealed weapons laws for decades, there is only one recorded incident (earlier this year in Texas) in which a concealed handgun, was used in a shooting following an accident. Even in that one case, a grand jury found that the shooting was in self-defense: The shooter was being beaten by the other driver.
And what about accidental deaths? The number of accidental handgun deaths each year is fewer than 200. Our estimates imply that if the states without "shall issue" laws were to adopt them, the increase in accidental handgun deaths would be at most nine more deaths per year. This is small indeed when compared to the at least 1,570 murders that would be avoided.
While no single study is likely to end the debate on concealed handguns, ours provides the first systematic national evidence. By contrast, the largest prior study examined only 170 cities within a single year. The nearly 50,000 observations in our data set allow us to control for a range of factors that have never been accounted for in any previous study of crime, let alone any previous gun-control study. Among other variables, our regressions control for arrest and conviction rates, prison sentences, changes in handgun laws such as waiting periods and the imposition of additional penalties for using a gun to commit a crime, income, poverty, unemployment and demographic changes. Preventing, law-abiding citizens from carrying handguns does not end violence, but merely makes them more vulnerable to attack. The very size and strength of our results should at least give pause to those who oppose concealed handguns. The opportunity to reduce the murder rate by simply relaxing a regulation ought to be difficult to ignore.
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One quick thing to note is that the portion you posted seems to be arguing against restrictions on concealed handguns, and I haven't really made any specific gun control legislation suggestions in this thread. My presence here has been to just make the point that there is room on both sides of the issue and to try to dispel a couple common pro-gun talking points. Extreme positions tend to not lend themselves to productive, much less enjoyable debate. Instead it just forces the opposition to adopt an extreme position as well just to balance out the absurdity. In the "Colorado Gun Demand" thread I argued for a ban of extended capacity magazines, and still stand by that belief, although that issue has already been debated from just about every angle possible.
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Wow . Check this out .
Professor Gary Kleck is a life long (self-avowed) liberal democrat, author of Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America. He had expected the research involved in that writing to infer negatively on gun ownership. He discovered a vast amount of violent crimes were prevented by firearms usage. Even though this was contrary to his original premise, he had the integrity to stand by his research. Although that book was awarded the best book (of 1993) on criminology by the American Society of Criminology it was largely ignored by gun control advocates such as most medical journals and our Government's Justice Department and Center for Disease Control.
http://www.largo.org/klecksum.html
Anyone who advocates for gun control and doesn't read this is dishonest . Sorry Ardy ,TJ this guy shows how invalid the statistics you quote are .
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One quick thing to note is that the portion you posted seems to be arguing against restrictions on concealed handguns, and I haven't really made any specific gun control legislation suggestions in this thread. My presence here has been to just make the point that there is room on both sides of the issue and to try to dispel a couple common pro-gun talking points. Extreme positions tend to not lend themselves to productive, much less enjoyable debate. Instead it just forces the opposition to adopt an extreme position as well just to balance out the absurdity. In the "Colorado Gun Demand" thread I argued for a ban of extended capacity magazines, and still stand by that belief, although that issue has already been debated from just about every angle possible.
Read the link above . It far more eloquently states what is wrong with the practical side of tat argument . Without even touching the Constitutionality of it . The right to carry is only one portion of Lott's work . After all TJ what is the intent of gun control ? To reduce violent crime like the mass shooting in Colorado . I don't know and there is no way to be sure . It is possible gun control laws lead to the massacre . The law I am referring to is the gun free zone . Even where concealed weapons are permitted some places you still can't carry them . The location in Co. is one . Now I am not saying it did . Just it is possible . The only other reason for gun control I can think of is to limit accidental death . Am I missing something ?
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Read the link above . It far more eloquently states what is wrong with the practical side of tat argument . Without even touching the Constitutionality of it . The right to carry is only one portion of Lott's work . After all TJ what is the intent of gun control ? To reduce violent crime like the mass shooting in Colorado . I don't know and there is no way to be sure . It is possible gun control laws lead to the massacre . The law I am referring to is the gun free zone . Even where concealed weapons are permitted some places you still can't carry them . The location in Co. is one . Now I am not saying it did . Just it is possible . The only other reason for gun control I can think of is to limit accidental death . Am I missing something ?
hlbly the truth about gun control, is that more or less gun laws wont stop the law abiding idiot that one day wakes up and decides to show up at some place and shoot as many people as he can.
we can only wonder if those people in new york if they had been carrying a gun and shot back what would have happened. more victims? I mean if they police who is supposed to be highly trained can open fire and shoot 9 bystanders, what would have happened in Colorado if some of those in the theater would have had guns themselves. how many more would have gotten shot?
I am all for the second amendment but lately it makes me wonder who should I be more concerned with, police, law abiding citizens going postal, or criminals.
semp
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hlbly the truth about gun control, is that more or less gun laws wont stop the law abiding idiot that one day wakes up and decides to show up at some place and shoot as many people as he can.
we can only wonder if those people in new york if they had been carrying a gun and shot back what would have happened. more victims? I mean if they police who is supposed to be highly trained can open fire and shoot 9 bystanders, what would have happened in Colorado if some of those in the theater would have had guns themselves. how many more would have gotten shot?
I am all for the second amendment but lately it makes me wonder who should I be more concerned with, police, law abiding citizens going postal, or criminals.
semp
Maybe you should lock yourself in your house.
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This is going to be my only post in this thread.
1. They aren't very law abiding if they're going postal. Pretty sure it's illegal to start fragging folks for the lulz.
2. Just because someone is SUPPOSED to be trained, doesn't mean they are. I know several Marines who are supposed to be able to pick up my spot on the .50 if I go down, but wouldn't be able to do anything other than fire it.
3. A bad cop is a criminal. He's violating his oath. Plain and simple.
And good find on the author/book there hlbly.
Maybe you should lock yourself in your house.
The world can be a scary place for those who can't face the reality that not all people are bad and not all people are good.
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This is going to be my only post in this thread.
1. They aren't very law abiding if they're going postal. Pretty sure it's illegal to start fragging folks for the lulz.
I think that part is obvious to everyone but him.
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Personally I spend all day hiding under my bed hoping a meteor doesn't hit my house.
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This is going to be my only post in this thread.
1. They aren't very law abiding if they're going postal. Pretty sure it's illegal to start fragging folks for the lulz.
2. Just because someone is SUPPOSED to be trained, doesn't mean they are. I know several Marines who are supposed to be able to pick up my spot on the .50 if I go down, but wouldn't be able to do anything other than fire it.
3. A bad cop is a criminal. He's violating his oath. Plain and simple.
And good find on the author/book there hlbly.
The world can be a scary place for those who can't face the reality that not all people are bad and not all people are good.
wow, arent you repeating what I said?
semp
I think that part is obvious to everyone but him.
:rolleyes: of course a law abiding citizen will never commit a crime. just go on the freeway and pretend that all those guys going above the speed limit aren't breaking the laws. of course if you crash and kill somebody then that means you were a criminal to begin with after all a law abiding citizen like you will never go above the speed limit. you can pretend all you want that only career criminals commit crimes.
semp
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I say this whenever the topic of gun control comes up. Gun control is like stopping drunk drivers by taking cars away from sober people. Think about it!
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Research,probablity and statistics and scientific anaylsis is irrelevnt and only there to keep the social elites and academics in positions of power and prestige, we all know right from wrong and know that the state in incapable of protecting its less wealthy citizens. (if they could this thread would not exist)
If you have a gun and some else has a gun they will keep away from you if they are crimminals and if they don't you get defend yourself regardsless of results. (fact)
If you don't have a gun someone who has a gun will NOT keep away from you if they are a crimminals and you cannot defend yourself. (fact)
Justifing a point of view using statisics and analysis is just the old saying "Can't see the wood for the trees" "Hiding common sense) The elites don't like common sense, they would all be out of jobs. (Foucoult written lots on the subject) :)
We all know that crimminals do what they do because they "CAN" :)
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I say this whenever the topic of gun control comes up. Gun control is like stopping drunk drivers by taking cars away from sober people. Think about it!
If gun control is like drunk driving then thats why there are driver licenses, driver tests, driver education, RBT & targeted traffic enforcement, alcohol laws, and gaol time to try to limit the amount of idiots who drive drunk and kill people
Tronsky
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(Also, look at Norway. 69 kids dead on an island because noone had a gun, that could have been stopped)
Norwegians own loads of guns; rifles, shotguns and handguns. iirc the only guns banned are fully automatic. sound familiar?
They also have conscription, so almost everybody has had firearms training.
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Norwegians own loads of guns; rifles, shotguns and handguns. iirc the only guns banned are fully automatic. sound familiar?
They also have conscription, so almost everybody has had firearms training.
And instilled DISCIPLINE
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hlbly the truth about gun control, is that more or less gun laws wont stop the law abiding idiot that one day wakes up and decides to show up at some place and shoot as many people as he can.
we can only wonder if those people in new york if they had been carrying a gun and shot back what would have happened. more victims? I mean if they police who is supposed to be highly trained can open fire and shoot 9 bystanders, what would have happened in Colorado if some of those in the theater would have had guns themselves. how many more would have gotten shot?
I am all for the second amendment but lately it makes me wonder who should I be more concerned with, police, law abiding citizens going postal, or criminals.
semp
Both of those books show statistically that you are wrong . A private citizen that employs a gun in that situation faces way heavier consequences than those police officers will . That being said . Private citizens use guns to stop crimes at the same rate that guns are used to commit crimes . The number of bystanders shot by them ? Almost nil . Lott compares it too law enforcements performance . You might be surprised by the numbers . I know I was . Until this thread got me digging around . My only objection was based on the second amendment . In 7th grade civics I had decided that the right to keep and bear arms was an individual right . My teacher gave me one of 2 C's I ever got in my life . The only one that was not deserved too because I would not alter my stance . He was wanting me not to question what he was trying to teach by rote . I was a very lucky kid . My dad taught me critical thinking . He would give me facts and told me to make up my own mind what they meant . I even asked him if I should cave and get my A . He told me . That I needed to decide what was meant after careful analysis of all information . He refused to tell me what his opinion was and forbade me from asking any of the neighbors . He knew I was going to go ask Capt. Walk somehow . At 80 he still delights in learning . I wonder if it is what keeps some mentally sharp . The whole point of that last bit ? I was pretty much middle of the road on this subject . I thought cop killer bullets should be illegal No one needed semi automatic weapons . Hand guns were not needed either . As long as we could keep our long arms the 2a was covered . Everyone that participated made me look deeper into the subject . The more I learned the more surprised I was . I am not going to cite them all but a couple of ones that surprised me . 1 Cop killer bullets have never killed a cop . I don't know why I assumed they had other than teachers and press pounding it into my head . No excuse though . 2 The slippery slope argument used by the gun nut NRA is true . Learned that researching what the founding fathers intent was with the 2nd amendment was . I was already convinced that my original statement in this thread was right . When Silat posted there was no proof that . Research into the contemporary legal opinions from the founding fathers era confirmed it . That lead me to Lott .
BTW i just ordered Klecks book . If hard core liberal can change his mind after extensive research ..... I encourage all of the proponents of gun control to at least look at what can be had free off the net .
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Surprised nobody had quoted, 'those who hammer their swords into plowshares will plow for those that don't'
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Surprised nobody had quoted, 'those who hammer their swords into plowshares will plow for those that don't'
Somebody just did :aok
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And instilled DISCIPLINE
I don't understand ?
Nordic countries have the highest standard of living in the Western World and the most infantile criminal system in the world. And a high rate of mental problems per capita.
That bloke on Norway was not very disciplined he could not control his selfish,opinionated,spoilt, privileged urges and opinions. :old:
If you have to work 12 hour night shifts for 20 years to pay the bills you generally dont have the time or the inclination to force your will on anyone.
Its fact that the majority of these serial killers are not from poorer parts of society.
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Research,probablity and statistics and scientific anaylsis is irrelevnt and only there to keep the social elites and academics in positions of power and prestige, we all know right from wrong and know that the state in incapable of protecting its less wealthy citizens. (if they could this thread would not exist)
If you have a gun and some else has a gun they will keep away from you if they are crimminals and if they don't you get defend yourself regardsless of results. (fact)
If you don't have a gun someone who has a gun will NOT keep away from you if they are a crimminals and you cannot defend yourself. (fact)
Justifing a point of view using statisics and analysis is just the old saying "Can't see the wood for the trees" "Hiding common sense) The elites don't like common sense, they would all be out of jobs. (Foucoult written lots on the subject) :)
We all know that crimminals do what they do because they "CAN" :)Love you bro but I disagree . I had partially bitten into what was being said about gun control . Certain types are ok to ban . No one needs to go running around with a hidden gun . If you got to hide some thing then you know its wrong . The slippery slope is just NRA nuts wanting to own everything from a pea shooter to 120mm smooth bore . Just gun nut hype . The statistical information from Lott and Kleck changed my mind to a great deal . The only time I am wary of statistics is when methodology won't be explained or when sources won't be given . Learned my lesson on that with the "ER's see an increase of 100,000 women that are victims of domestic violence on super bowl Sunday" statistic cited by women's rights groups . I felt a bit of self loathing because I couldn't quit watching it ,even though I knew it could turn me into a violent beast .
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I don't understand ?
Nordic countries have the highest standard of living in the Western World and the most infantile criminal system in the world. And a high rate of mental problems per capita.
That bloke on Norway was not very disciplined he could not control his selfish,opinionated,spoilt, privileged urges and opinions. :old:
If you have to work 12 hour night shifts for 20 years to pay the bills you generally dont have the time or the inclination to force your will on anyone.
Its fact that the majority of these serial killers are not from poorer parts of society.
Hmmm I did not know that he was well to do . My question was how did the Colorado man an unemployed mentally unstable individual afford his expensive fire arms 2 glocks a remington shotgun an S&W AR-15 . I am going to go google the prices on those .Looks like around 4500.00 conservatively . Unemployed living in a room . How did he afford it ? I bought my Mossburg 12 ga and Ithaca 1911A1 because I could not afford a Colt and a Winchester . No one is asking this question .
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Credit cards.
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wow, arent you repeating what I said?
semp
:rolleyes: of course a law abiding citizen will never commit a crime. just go on the freeway and pretend that all those guys going above the speed limit aren't breaking the laws. of course if you crash and kill somebody then that means you were a criminal to begin with after all a law abiding citizen like you will never go above the speed limit. you can pretend all you want that only career criminals commit crimes.
semp
What do you do for a living?
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Credit cards.
Didn't think of that . I don't use them . Total of my debt 0.00 . Total of my assets ....not much more lol . Hmmm wait a second . 6,000 rounds of ammo and body armor too . How much credit can a guy get that has only worked as a summer camp counselor ?
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7 credit cards = lots of coin :old:
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Hlbly- Why is it that world-renowned economists can look at a set of statistics and come up with almost opposite conclusions? Why do some think the stimulus was good or even too small, while others think that it only served to hurt the economy? Why do some think more government spending is the solution, while others think less? These people are university professors, some Nobel Prize winners, who come up with wildly different conclusions.
There are hundreds of books and papers on both sides of the issue of gun control, well researched, backed up with statistics and facts. And yet they come up with wildly different soutions. My point is that you cannot, for the sake of intellectual honesty, just look at one or two papers that support your side and call it a day. If you want to start posting papers that "prove" your position, then don't be surprised when I post a couple of papers that "prove" my assertion. Gun politics would be a lot different if the statistics were as one-sided as you seem to believe.
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That bloke from Norway's father and mother were diplomats.
Spoilt selfish people tend to have personality disorders.
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Best gun control laws are Swiss.
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If gun control is like drunk driving then thats why there are driver licenses, driver tests, driver education, RBT & targeted traffic enforcement, alcohol laws, and gaol time to try to limit the amount of idiots who drive drunk and kill people
Tronsky
The corollary to that is this. If licenses, drivers tests, RBT and enforcement could prevent drunk driving there would be no drunks driving on the road. Yet in spite of all that, including fed, state and local emphasis on stopping the problem it is estimated that about one in 5 drivers on the road after 8 to 10PM is under the influence. On the other hand driving is not constitutionally protected and is not a right. It is a privilege granted by the state, hence the license and still cannot end the problem. It's amazing how easy it is for a drunk to get a car, even when they do not have a license, have no insurance and are legally prohibited from owning one by court order.
Gee I guess it comes back to that bit about those who are determined to break laws are not really deterred by another law that tells then "nony nonny pooh pooh, you can't do that".
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true, but those who are borderline are effected by laws and their consequences. stronger penalties for drink driving, and proper enforcement leads to fewer deaths by drink driving. the alcaholic who doesnt give a toss will still drink drive, the guy who has had a beer or 2 will be more likely to leave it at that if the consequences are long jail terms and loss of income.
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That sounds nice but from bitter experience, it's the guy that had a couple that causes the majority of the problems and is the majority of the folks under the influence out there. It doesn't take much to have an impact on the ability to drive and think clearly for some. Those that are dissuaded from the activity by the law wouldn't be the problem as they don't participate in the activity anyhow. We have what looks to be an "industry" geared to make sure the person who is caught doesn't have to take responsibility for their actions. The same thing when someone says, they didn't mean it, that was only the drink talking / acting, it wasn't really their fault
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Best gun control laws are Swiss.
Their banks put Al Capone to shame :old:
They do very well out wars :old:
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I own two fire extingushers. I keep one in the kitchen and one in the garage. It's not likely my house will ever catch fire, but if it does I'll have some defense before things get out of control.
I think of my Mossberg 500 the exact same way.
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I will likely do the same if I move to the countryside, theres no need to where I live at the moment.
(shotgun, not fire extinguishers that is :D)
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Were is skuzzy when you need Him :confused:
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read more, post less :aok
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RT is southern English and by nature soft :rofl
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break into my house and we'll find out how soft I am ;)
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I am in your cupboard :)
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Wow . Check this out .
Professor Gary Kleck is a life long (self-avowed) liberal democrat, author of Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America. He had expected the research involved in that writing to infer negatively on gun ownership. He discovered a vast amount of violent crimes were prevented by firearms usage. Even though this was contrary to his original premise, he had the integrity to stand by his research. Although that book was awarded the best book (of 1993) on criminology by the American Society of Criminology it was largely ignored by gun control advocates such as most medical journals and our Government's Justice Department and Center for Disease Control.
http://www.largo.org/klecksum.html
Anyone who advocates for gun control and doesn't read this is dishonest . Sorry Ardy ,TJ this guy shows how invalid the statistics you quote are .
I am not much of a scientist, although there is a B.S. somewhere in a trunk tucked away and long forgotten. The one thing that I do know about research is that you can only prove something is true, by trying to prove that it is NOT true. If that didn't get your head spinning think of it this way. If I want to prove that my sky at this moment is blue, I would have to compare it to every know color or hue and say it doesn't match any of those. Who knows, I might find that it is actually green or purple (see where I went there).
So back to honest research and gun control, there will always be "gray" areas and both sides do have very valid points. What to do next? Well, I would need to do more than just read a book. I would need to look at the raw data, the sampling, his methods (say how did he randomly pick data) and a number of other things. But in the end I would still come up with inconclusive results about gun control.
I think the big thing probably missing in his premise is that the term "violent crimes" in itself can be misleading. What would the results be in terms of "innocent gun deaths" instead?
My fraternity brother in college answered the door to his apartment, a group rushed in on him and his two children and wife. He was bound, pistol whipped while his wife, baby and toddler were held at gunpoint in another room. He was robbed of anything valuable that they could take. That was truly a violent crime.
Point of the true story? I would never feel safe (maybe safer). Possibly, had he wielded a gun ready at the entrance, the best possible result would have been they would have run. As it turned out he lost money and things, got bruised and busted up. I don't know what would have been the result if he stood his ground, outnumbered and both parties were surprised. At least there were no innocent deaths.
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somehow I think that if you shot anybody self defense or not his family would come after you to avenge the 'family honor". or if you proved to be a man of speed then others would come after you trying to claim the title.
semp
You and TJ have been watching too much tv again...odds are they wouldn't know the guy was dead for some time. Maybe never.
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hlbly the truth about gun control, is that more or less gun laws wont stop the law abiding idiot that one day wakes up and decides to show up at some place and shoot as many people as he can.
we can only wonder if those people in new york if they had been carrying a gun and shot back what would have happened. more victims? I mean if they police who is supposed to be highly trained can open fire and shoot 9 bystanders, what would have happened in Colorado if some of those in the theater would have had guns themselves. how many more would have gotten shot?
I am all for the second amendment but lately it makes me wonder who should I be more concerned with, police, law abiding citizens going postal, or criminals.
semp
Sep im gonna go out on a limb here and say you don't conceal carry and i supposed know no who does. People who conceal carry are a different sort from your run of the mill goober. They train for long hours study and are very proficient with their weapon of choice. It is not a light issue to begin to CC and with comes a whole new way of doing anything. And these fokswho are usually on the lookout for suspicious people are sometimes enough to deter would be crime commiters.
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Both of those books show statistically that you are wrong . A private citizen that employs a gun in that situation faces way heavier consequences than those police officers will . That being said . Private citizens use guns to stop crimes at the same rate that guns are used to commit crimes . The number of bystanders shot by them ? Almost nil .
you cant actually prove that first statement. not saying is wrong but you cant prove it. have seen this quoted in one form or another since I was in high school back in the 80's. however I remember the newsweeks (i believe) story about people who died in one week of gunshots back in the 90's. A good portion of those were either accidental or self inflicted. trying to find the story but google dont want to help.
semp
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Chilli, I agree 100% with your post.
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I like the fact that in this country the incidence of gun crime is negligable. It has however increased substantially since the draconian private ownership laws were enacted after Micheal Ryan in Hungerford, and especially Thomas Hamilton at Dunblane.
If, however, the government sees fit to allow private firearm ownership for home defence, at any time in the future I guarantee you I will be in the front of the line, and make sure my loved ones know how to acces and use it. If homeowners are expected by criminals to be in possesion of firearms, they are more likely to take the risk of carrying a weapon themselves.
At the moment it's not necessary, and whatever the firearms laws or reasonable force guidelines, you break into my house and threaten my loved ones I promise it will be your last burglary. Britain has recently dealt with a couple of deaths of burgling little turds whilst they were invading peoples homes. Thet aquitted the homeowners who protected themselves.
The problem I foresee is that if government strongly advocates use of force in home defence, it will serve to make criminals arm themselves more effectively.
It is a viscious circle
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Good guys VS bad guys. Gun laws only give the bad guys the advantage. Soooo NO they don't work. When they come to disarm me I feel badly for them and my family.
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Surprised nobody had quoted, 'those who hammer their swords into plowshares will plow for those that don't'
Actually...
Check my sig. Technically, the quote was used several pages back...
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:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
sorry but your rollseye made me laugh....obviously you don't want your freedom and would rather be a sheep than a man....let me guess the first sign of trouble you call 911....oh come save me....help me....I need help......
take the responsibility of YOUR life into YOU'RE hands...don't expect someone else to came save you.
but then again I guess this world needs all kinds....so never mind continue being a sheep.
that quote is one of the best there is. :aok
Not everyone lives where you do. I, however, have been up to your place.
I'm thinking 911 response time to be 30-45 minutes MINIMUM, in good weather.
Then again, from having the opportunity to meet a bunch of folks while in your area and witnessing the breed of people up there, my bet is that most conflicts would be "resolved" before help could arrive and that a 911 call up there is more like a call for a clean-up crew. :devil
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:rofl....and shoot guns :D
Plenty of places to off-road. :rofl
Any word on someone finding my winch control cable? :rofl
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we can only wonder if those people in new york if they had been carrying a gun and shot back what would have happened. more victims? I mean if they police who is supposed to be highly trained can open fire and shoot 9 bystanders, what would have happened in Colorado if some of those in the theater would have had guns themselves. how many more would have gotten shot?
semp
Most police are not highly trained. Many leagal gun owners are far better trained than the police.
The 2 officers in NY made many mistakes.
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Not that it is much direct relevance to the thread topic, but interesting enough in regards to the New York shooting. IIRC, the NYPD require all the officer sidearms to have a 12 pound trigger, even making the Sig 226 a DAO firearm with a 12 pound trigger. Without a doubt, poor training played a role, but the 12 pound trigger did not make things any easier.
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Most police are not highly trained. Many leagal gun owners are far better trained than the police.
The 2 officers in NY made many mistakes.
I hold the training regimen, frequency and qualification standards for failing the NYPD.
I hold the officers responsible for not taking it upon themselves to recognize that the NYPD standards and their own fire discipline was lacking and correcting this on their own time.
If you are going to do a job that requires you to possibly have to fire upon a suspect in a metropolis as crowded as New York City, you had better make sure that you are able to hit your mark, regardless of the situation. When all is said and done, the responsibility lies solely on the individual pulling the trigger.
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Most police are not highly trained. Many leagal gun owners are far better trained than the police.
The 2 officers in NY made many mistakes.
Yes and some civilians with no military training can snipe from further out than your regular military sniper. but the truth is police officers are far better trained than your average gun owner.
semp
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Yes and some civilians with no military training can snipe from further out than your regular military sniper. but the truth is police officers are far better trained than your average gun owner.
semp
I feel like it's hard to make a blanket statement in either direction. Does that include gun owners who just own hunting rifles or shotguns? Gun owners who just shoot .22s recreational? Or is it referring to gun owners who carry for self-defense? Also, training varies greatly by different police departments. The TRUTH is, it's impossible to say either way who, on average, is better without real unbiased evidence.
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Yes and some civilians with no military training can snipe from further out than your regular military sniper. but the truth is police officers are far better trained than your average gun owner.
semp
Possible but doubtful when speaking of CHL holders.
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Possible but doubtful when speaking of CHL holders.
Especially since the officers of the NYPD in this most recent incidence were veterans and this is the first time that they ever had to fire their weapon in the line of duty.
I have fired my everyday carry so many times that the checkering on the (wooden) handle is starting to smooth over.
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I feel like it's hard to make a blanket statement in either direction. Does that include gun owners who just own hunting rifles or shotguns? Gun owners who just shoot .22s recreational? Or is it referring to gun owners who carry for self-defense? Also, training varies greatly by different police departments. The TRUTH is, it's impossible to say either way who, on average, is better without real unbiased evidence.
well, based on the fact that your average gun owner doesnt do as much training with arms as your average police officer, then most likely that is the proof that your average police officer is better trained than your average gun owner.
you are dreaming if you think your average gun owner is equally or better trained than the police.
semp
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Possible but doubtful when speaking of CHL holders.
Out of the ~35000 deaths due to guns, ~12000 were homicides, the rest were accidents and suicides. Statistically speaking, one has greater chance at killing themselves than being killed by someone else.
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well, based on the fact that your average gun owner doesnt do as much training with arms as your average police officer, then most likely that is the proof that your average police officer is better trained than your average gun owner.
you are dreaming if you think your average gun owner is equally or better trained than the police.
semp
Well it's not realistic to group ALL gun owners into that statement. A fair comparison would be to look at the ability of concealed carriers vs. law enforcement. That area is much more murky and I bet you would be surprised at some of the results.
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Out of the ~35000 deaths due to guns, ~12000 were homicides, the rest were accidents and suicides. Statistically speaking, one has greater chance at killing themselves than being killed by someone else.
Oh, good 'ole Ardy, for not wanting to get involved in these conversations on here, you sure post a lot. :cheers:
Using a firearm for a suicide is not an indication that having firearms make you more likely to commit suicide.
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Oh, good 'ole Ardy, for not wanting to get involved in these conversations on here, you sure post a lot. :cheers:
hehe, the tone calmed down, so I felt it was 'safe' :) :cheers:
Using a firearm for a suicide is not an indication that having firearms make you more likely to commit suicide.
Agreed, one would need to extrapolate the number of accidental deaths from the suicide rate. I bet the suicide success rate is higher when guns are used though :) (Most suicides tend to be a plea for help)
EDIT: Where the F' is scuzzy? this thread is in violation of so many bbs rules its amazing....
I hope he's feeling alright, not sick or something.... :uhoh
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Not everyone lives where you do. I, however, have been up to your place.
I'm thinking 911 response time to be 30-45 minutes MINIMUM, in good weather.
Then again, from having the opportunity to meet a bunch of folks while in your area and witnessing the breed of people up there, my bet is that most conflicts would be "resolved" before help could arrive and that a 911 call up there is more like a call for a clean-up crew. :devil
Live free or die :D
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Well it's not realistic to group ALL gun owners into that statement. A fair comparison would be to look at the ability of concealed carriers vs. law enforcement. That area is much more murky and I bet you would be surprised at some of the results.
I was just replying to this statement.
Most police are not highly trained. Many leagal gun owners are far better trained than the police.
The 2 officers in NY made many mistakes.
so we just talking about the average police officer being better trained than your average gun owner.
semp
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Hlbly,
The group that pulled the statistics which comes from the article: Prevalence of Household Firearms and Firearm-Storage Practices in the 50 States and the District of Columbia: Findings From the Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System, 2002. That is the source of the VPC ratings Ardy posted for firearms deaths and are a shill for the CDC sub group: NCIPC.
NCIPC was exposed to congress in 1995 for their politicaly biased, and shoddy research that slanted all of their findings to support the CDC's assertion that US gun ownership has to be eliminated for it's own health(good).
It's now a "Firearms Suicide" tracking system the CDC gives grants to states who are willing to take part in called: BRFSS
Congress pulled the funding for NCIPC becasue they performing politicaly biased research to help the CDC try to demonise firearms with the public in the same manner they did with smoking. The CDC wanted to subvert the constitution by showing an epidemic existed which was 100% fatal and could only be controlled by outlawing private firearms ownership in the US.
So first the NCIPC and it's supporters then, now the BRFSS and it's data manipulators, which is only a number tracking system. Is being abused by supporters of the CDC's unconstitutional ploy to support a total ban of private gun ownership in the US. The plan is to scare the US public into forcing congress to save them from an epidemic of firearms suicide by violating the constitution and banning privately owned firearms.
The 1995 NCIPC reasearch and then again the 2002 survey was found to be heavely biased becasue firarms owners would not answer survey questions when asked. Everyone who owns firearms knows it's unlawful to create registries of gun owners to protect the privacy of firearms owners from the governemnt. The CDC wanted access to ownership records to more accuratly track the epidemic and they innocently justified the need becasue of the firearms death epidemic. The NCIPC sopposidly inadvertently started an ownership database in the 90's during their research. Becasue gun owners for the most part told them to get lost, they had to call citizens from the local registered role of democrat voters in the hopes they would be willing to talk about their neighbors who owned firearms. They also relyed on the answers from young children in these surveys who we all know are the best and most reliable witnesses when coherced by adults to freely talk about other people.
Congress was not happy with them when they voted to cut their funding directly out of the CDC budget. But, they got it back through the usual deals made behind closed doors. And BRFSS was born. The numbers Ardy posted into this discussion are for suicides, not homicides which have been falling off. A person who wants to off themsleves will off themsleves. Suicide is suicide how ever it's conducted. Guns don't make people commite suicide anymore than they make people commite murder. If that were the case my whole neighborhood would have all hung themselves long ago becasue I own guns.
Suicide is being used as a trojan horse to get around the constitution by people who are afraid of anyone with any kind of a weapon becasue it might be premeditatedly or accidentaly used to kill them. They are terrified of their own mortality more than feeling others lives are as sacred or worthy of life as their own. They will deny everyone else the ability to protect themselves out of this fear, while requiring others to place their lives in jepordy to protect their life.
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you cant actually prove that first statement. not saying is wrong but you cant prove it. have seen this quoted in one form or another since I was in high school back in the 80's. however I remember the newsweeks (i believe) story about people who died in one week of gunshots back in the 90's. A good portion of those were either accidental or self inflicted. trying to find the story but google dont want to help.
semp
Actually I can read the book .
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Actually I can read the book .
that only proves you can read.
semp
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I was just replying to this statement.
so we just talking about the average police officer being better trained than your average gun owner.
semp
My wife and I attended a birthday party for a friend Saturday evening. Her son-in-law is an NYPD Lieutenant. I asked if he had seen the security camera video of the shooting incident between the two officers and the gunman. He said no (which surprised me). Using our friend's computer, I located the video and we watched it. I asked if he saw any errors by the cops, he said, "no, nothing major."
"Really?", I asked. "Let's watch it again, stopping at various points."
After going over it twice, he admitted that the two officers had screwed up royally in virtually every aspect of the encounter.
We talked about the training NYPD gets... He admitted that there should be comprehensive training relative to how to apprehend an armed killer... Yet, it took a non-police person to point out the mistakes. Granted, I'm a shooter who trains on a regular basis. Within the capacity of my job (we design and develop hardware for military small arms), I've worked with and done firearms training with Marines, Army and SPEC OPS personnel many times. I've seen the tactics and the procedures in action, and these cops didn't have a clue as to what to do, how to do it and where to do it. That's what caused the wounding of 9 bystanders. Had combat trained military personnel been there, they would not have made those errors and it's very unlikely that anyone but the perp would have been injured (assuming he even would have had the opportunity to resist).
Most police forces I'm familiar with have minimal semi-annual re-qualification requirements. NYPD doesn't have a comprehensive training program that meets current needs. A study was commissioned by the City to determine where NYPD could improve. The Rand Corporation conducted the study and released a report. Their recommendations relative to firearms training is as follows:
Recommendations
To facilitate training effectiveness, we recommend that the NYPD take the following
actions:
•Develop standards of performance for all basic policing skills and evaluate recruits accordingly, not passing them until they have demonstrated they have mastered the skill at an appropriate level.
•Upgrade computer simulations to incorporate the latest use-of-force scenarios now available from simulator vendors.
•Expose recruits to scenario-based training and role-playing workshops throughout training.
•Design scenario-based training to increase the department’s confidence that recruits have learned basic principles.
•Have recruits practice on a wide set of scenarios.
•Focus debriefings primarily on the big principles, not the potential nuances that exist in every situation.
•Develop detailed evaluation guides and assess training-outcome data to determine whether the training was successful.
•Require recruits to pass proficiency standards in real-life and scenario-based tests of complex decisionmaking before graduating them from the police academy.
•Collect detailed training records from the various recruit-training activities and store them in one location.
•Substantially increase the availability of simulators, including scenarios using Simunition systems, to allow recruits to practice and then demonstrate that they have mastered the requisite skills, particularly those associated with the use of force.
•Take the lead: Partner with one or more virtual-simulation companies to determine whether technological advances can be used to create simulators for judgment in potential use-of-force scenarios that might operate on stand-alone laptop computers without an instructor’s or operator’s intervention. This might start with the issuing of a request for qualification (RFQ) to determine the interest and qualifications of potential collaborating firms.
•Undertake a full cost-benefit analysis of resequencing recruit training. Given the importance of scenario-based training and the high cost of equipment (such as simulators), the analysis should include all tangible and intangible costs and benefits. A rolling induction of recruits with classes starting every two weeks instead of having large, semiannual recruit classes should allow for a much higher utilization of simulators, spreading their use over the entire year and giving recruits more opportunities to practice and be graded on their performance using simulators.
•Investigate alternatives to the current semiannual firearm-requalification paradigm to provide enhanced firearm instruction that would focus on the officer’s proficiency rather than just the score on a static target.
I'm not aware that these recommendations have been acted upon.....
The following is from the NYPD Firearm use guidelines:
•A police officer shall not use deadly force against another person unless the officer has probable cause to believe that he or she must protect self or another person present from imminent death or serious physical injury.
•A police officer shall not discharge his or her weapon when doing so will unnecessarily endanger innocent persons. This rule was completely violated in that shootout, RE: 9 wounded civilians.
•A police officer shall not discharge his or her firearm in defense of property.
•A police officer shall not discharge his or her firearm to subdue a fleeing felon who presents no threat of imminent death or serious physical injury to self or another person present. This does not mean that you don't unholster the weapon to be ready for a possible resistance with a firearm. Those cops were told that the suspect had just shot and killed a man, yet they were completely unprepared, with their guns holstered.
•A police officer shall not fire warning shots. A police officer shall not discharge his or her firearm to summon assistance, except in emergency situations in which someone’s personal safety is endangered and unless no other reasonable means is available.
•A police officer shall not discharge his or her firearm at or from a moving vehicle unless deadly physical force is being used against the police officer or another person present by means other than a moving vehicle, e.g., being fired at from the vehicle.
•A police officer shall not discharge his or her firearm at a dog or other animal except to protect self or another person from physical injury and when there is no other reasonable means to eliminate the threat.
•A police officer shall not, under any circumstances, cock a firearm. Firearms must be fired double action at all times. This is because NYPD buys double action only pistols, Sigs, Glocks or a revolver if the officer prefers. All guns received get a trigger job before issue, increasing trigger pull from 6 lbs to 12 lbs to minimize risk of AD (accidental discharge). Of course, this greatly effects accuracy in the negative and contributes to wild misses when under stress.
-
My wife and I attended a birthday party for a friend Saturday evening. Her son-in-law is an NYPD Lieutenant. I asked if he had seen the security camera video of the shooting incident between the two officers and the gunman. He said no (which surprised me). Using our friend's computer, I located the video and we watched it. I asked if he saw any errors by the cops, he said, "no, nothing major."
"Really?", I asked. "Let's watch it again, stopping at various points."
After going over it twice, he admitted that the two officers had screwed up royally in virtually every aspect of the encounter.
We talked about the training NYPD gets... He admitted that there should be comprehensive training relative to how to apprehend an armed killer... Yet, it took a non-police person to point out the mistakes. Granted, I'm a shooter who trains on a regular basis. Within the capacity of my job (we design and develop hardware for military small arms), I've worked with and done firearms training with Marines, Army and SPEC OPS personnel many times. I've seen the tactics and the procedures in action, and these cops didn't have a clue as to what to do, how to do it and where to do it. That's what caused the wounding of 9 bystanders. Had combat trained military personnel been there, they would not have made those errors and it's very unlikely that anyone but the perp would have been injured (assuming he even would have had the opportunity to resist).
Most police forces I'm familiar with have minimal semi-annual re-qualification requirements. NYPD doesn't have a comprehensive training program that meets current needs. A study was commissioned by the City to determine where NYPD could improve. The Rand Corporation conducted the study and released a report. Their recommendations relative to firearms training is as follows:
Recommendations
To facilitate training effectiveness, we recommend that the NYPD take the following
actions:
•Develop standards of performance for all basic policing skills and evaluate recruits accordingly, not passing them until they have demonstrated they have mastered the skill at an appropriate level.
•Upgrade computer simulations to incorporate the latest use-of-force scenarios now available from simulator vendors.
•Expose recruits to scenario-based training and role-playing workshops throughout training.
•Design scenario-based training to increase the department’s confidence that recruits have learned basic principles.
•Have recruits practice on a wide set of scenarios.
•Focus debriefings primarily on the big principles, not the potential nuances that exist in every situation.
•Develop detailed evaluation guides and assess training-outcome data to determine whether the training was successful.
•Require recruits to pass proficiency standards in real-life and scenario-based tests of complex decisionmaking before graduating them from the police academy.
•Collect detailed training records from the various recruit-training activities and store them in one location.
•Substantially increase the availability of simulators, including scenarios using Simunition systems, to allow recruits to practice and then demonstrate that they have mastered the requisite skills, particularly those associated with the use of force.
•Take the lead: Partner with one or more virtual-simulation companies to determine whether technological advances can be used to create simulators for judgment in potential use-of-force scenarios that might operate on stand-alone laptop computers without an instructor’s or operator’s intervention. This might start with the issuing of a request for qualification (RFQ) to determine the interest and qualifications of potential collaborating firms.
•Undertake a full cost-benefit analysis of resequencing recruit training. Given the importance of scenario-based training and the high cost of equipment (such as simulators), the analysis should include all tangible and intangible costs and benefits. A rolling induction of recruits with classes starting every two weeks instead of having large, semiannual recruit classes should allow for a much higher utilization of simulators, spreading their use over the entire year and giving recruits more opportunities to practice and be graded on their performance using simulators.
•Investigate alternatives to the current semiannual firearm-requalification paradigm to provide enhanced firearm instruction that would focus on the officer’s proficiency rather than just the score on a static target.
I'm not aware that these recommendations have been acted upon.....
The following is from the NYPD Firearm use guidelines:
•A police officer shall not use deadly force against another person unless the officer has probable cause to believe that he or she must protect self or another person present from imminent death or serious physical injury.
•A police officer shall not discharge his or her weapon when doing so will unnecessarily endanger innocent persons. This rule was completely violated in that shootout, RE: 9 wounded civilians.
•A police officer shall not discharge his or her firearm in defense of property.
•A police officer shall not discharge his or her firearm to subdue a fleeing felon who presents no threat of imminent death or serious physical injury to self or another person present. This does not mean that you don't unholster the weapon to be ready for a possible resistance with a firearm. Those cops were told that the suspect had just shot and killed a man, yet they were completely unprepared, with their guns holstered.
•A police officer shall not fire warning shots. A police officer shall not discharge his or her firearm to summon assistance, except in emergency situations in which someone’s personal safety is endangered and unless no other reasonable means is available.
•A police officer shall not discharge his or her firearm at or from a moving vehicle unless deadly physical force is being used against the police officer or another person present by means other than a moving vehicle, e.g., being fired at from the vehicle.
•A police officer shall not discharge his or her firearm at a dog or other animal except to protect self or another person from physical injury and when there is no other reasonable means to eliminate the threat.
•A police officer shall not, under any circumstances, cock a firearm. Firearms must be fired double action at all times. This is because NYPD buys double action only pistols, Sigs, Glocks or a revolver if the officer prefers. All guns received get a trigger job before issue, increasing trigger pull from 6 lbs to 12 lbs to minimize risk of AD (accidental discharge). Of course, this greatly effects accuracy in the negative and contributes to wild misses when under stress.
what does that above has to do to prove this wrong?
so we just talking about the average police officer being better trained than your average gun owner.
semp
semp
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Hlbly,
I am not sure what bustr is talking about... all but 2(maybe 3) of my posts were from the '07 CDC report.
http://www.cdc.gov/NCHS/data/nvsr/nvsr58/nvsr58_19.pdf
Page 35: has both the suicide numbers and the homicide numbers.
FYI: The 12,632 number was the homicide number not the suicide number, and that was the number I posted...
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what does that above has to do to prove this wrong?
semp
One of the unsaid points is that the average firearm hobbiest is frequently more proficient with his weapon than police officers. Some cops are recreational shooters, but the majority are not.
I'm not talking about the guy who buys a 9mm, shoots it once in a blue moon and then puts it in his night stand... These guys are not prepared for anything, really.
One other point... A idiot with a firearm was still an idiot first. Too bad there's no requirement to screen out idiots. One has the right to bear arms, but one does not have the right to endanger those around them with carelessness and stupidity. I could tell you stories of what I've seen at ranges that would make your blood run cold.... Drunks, gangbangers, irresponsible dolts and some simply devoid of common sense. Usually, range personnel or other shooters will police these guys. Still, at the range, I watch my fellow shooters like a hawk....
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Lots of folks making some pretty dramatic claims about accuracy. I'd say that the folks making the claims are doing so from the perspective of range shooting where the rounds only go one direction. As to accuracy claims, I am perfectly willing to stipulate that the average gun enthusiast who practices often easily can shoot better on the range than the average police officer suddenly thrust into a life and death situation can during the life and death crisis. Range shooting does not equally transfer to real combat, especially in a sudden incident situation where you are having to react to the threat. But those of you who have range time are welcome to continue to think how good you really are. Talk to me after you have seen the elephant, you'll have credibility then.
Not all cops are good shots. Some are plain bad shots, just like the folks who get their ccw and then don't go to the range and maintain their skills. It's perishable.
Widewing, nice training syllabus there. Did you ever to a cost analysis to see how much it would take to run it for say a 500 man department including recurrent training? I'd be interested to hear if you have had the opportunity to do that and find out how much training budget a department might have on an annual basis in today's economy and if your ideas fit in it.
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One of the unsaid points is that the average firearm hobbiest is frequently more proficient with his weapon than police officers. Some cops are recreational shooters, but the majority are not.
I'm not talking about the guy who buys a 9mm, shoots it once in a blue moon and then puts it in his night stand... These guys are not prepared for anything, really.
One other point... A idiot with a firearm was still an idiot first. Too bad there's no requirement to screen out idiots. One has the right to bear arms, but one does not have the right to endanger those around them with carelessness and stupidity. I could tell you stories of what I've seen at ranges that would make your blood run cold.... Drunks, gangbangers, irresponsible dolts and some simply devoid of common sense. Usually, range personnel or other shooters will police these guys. Still, at the range, I watch my fellow shooters like a hawk....
I would wager that the average firearm hobbiest puts more practice lead downrange than any two NYPD officers. The advantage may lie simply in the muscle memory of practicing more often. Also, the average, legally armed citizen is also not as constrained with regard to use of deadly force, when legally applicable, whereas deadly force is reserved for when all other options have been exhausted by law enforcement for multiple reasons. For the situation being discussed, this is the first time these officers have ever had to discharge their weapons in the line of duty. As a rule, police are trained to create as little as carnage as possible whereas Joe Citizen does not have to negotiate when his life is threatened and doesn't need to ignore instinct.
I get the heebie-jeebies when I recall some of the things I have seen on the range. I will add the fact that I have seen more unsafe behavior on public ranges on state game lands, here in PA than I have at private clubs, but it is never prudent to be ignorant about what others are doing with loaded weapons.
EDIT:
On a side note, Widewing, have you ever had the chance to shoot at Hogan's Alley? :D
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I would wager that the average firearm hobbiest puts more practice lead downrange than any two NYPD officers. The advantage may lie simply in the muscle memory of practicing more often. Also, the average, legally armed citizen is also not as constrained with regard to use of deadly force, when legally applicable, whereas deadly force is reserved for when all other options have been exhausted by law enforcement for multiple reasons. For the situation being discussed, this is the first time these officers have ever had to discharge their weapons in the line of duty. As a rule, police are trained to create as little as carnage as possible whereas Joe Citizen does not have to negotiate when his life is threatened and doesn't need to ignore instinct.
I get the heebie-jeebies when I recall some of the things I have seen on the range. I will add the fact that I have seen more unsafe behavior on public ranges on state game lands, here in PA than I have at private clubs, but it is never prudent to be ignorant about what others are doing with loaded weapons.
EDIT:
On a side note, Widewing, have you ever had the chance to shoot at Hogan's Alley? :D
Yes, I did actually. Maybe 10-12 years ago.. We were developing shot-counters for a pilot program with the FBI. FBI agents reserved the Hogan's Alley operated by the Suffolk County PD. We spent the afternoon running the alley with 10mm S&W Model 1076, MP5 and MP5/10 subguns.. Was a hoot. At the end of the day, we still had ammo remaining. Two boxes of 9mm and about 70 rounds of 10mm. Because the paperwork involved to return ammo was daunting, the agents simply handed the ammunition to us. I still have the 10mm ammo, in my safe... Shot out the 9mm stuff within a week.
Like you, I've seen some insane behavior on public ranges. Seen some stupid stuff on Military ranges too. About 12 or so years ago, I led a team down to Fort Benning to test shot-counters on issue M16A2s (they worked well on new rifles, we wanted data on well used rifles). We were given a range position just down from where recruits were getting live fire training. Two recruits, on the last and nearest rifle pit position were grabassing. The one in the pit, with a magazine in his rifle, swept us as he turned around to jabber with the other. About 10 seconds later, he did it again, and then again! We were there with two civilian Army employees (who had requisitioned and provided the two M16s we were using). After the third sweep, I ran out of patience. I climbed out of the pit and walked over to the nearest instructor holding a cleaning rod (used to check for empty chambers or obstructed bores). I was really hot... I walked up and shoved my face into the instructor's and said, "the next time that soldier sweeps us with that weapon, I'm going to break it over his &%#@%$ head, and then I'm going take whatever is left of it and go find you."
He looked stunned...
Pointing at the recruit, I continued. "Three &%$@#&% times that man swept us with his weapon, playing grabass with his buddy there. Three times! It had better not happen again." I spun around and walked off as profuse apologies and "won't happen again, Sir" followed me...
Needless to say, things got really exciting for those two knuckleheads. Just as I headed back to our group, an officer walks over to my guys. He was the officer responsible for supporting our testing program. He overheard my raising hell, but didn't hear the details. We told him what had occurred and he said he would attend to the problem. I looked over at two recruits doing push-ups in a mud puddle and said, "I think I made my point, Major, but that's your call."
Follow up... The Army didn't buy the shot counters. The Navy did! 12,200 of them for installation in M4 carbines. Colt, who manufacture the M4 is negotiating with the services to install the counters as OEM. FN makes the M16A2, and they have been trying to develop their own shot counter design, thus far without success. Since they also make the SCAR, we haven't gotten on that yet, although we passed the testing and the SEALs want it. Politics, as usual.
Yes sir, you can find dumb almost anywhere....
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Lots of folks making some pretty dramatic claims about accuracy. I'd say that the folks making the claims are doing so from the perspective of range shooting where the rounds only go one direction. As to accuracy claims, I am perfectly willing to stipulate that the average gun enthusiast who practices often easily can shoot better on the range than the average police officer suddenly thrust into a life and death situation can during the life and death crisis. Range shooting does not equally transfer to real combat, especially in a sudden incident situation where you are having to react to the threat. But those of you who have range time are welcome to continue to think how good you really are. Talk to me after you have seen the elephant, you'll have credibility then.
Not all cops are good shots. Some are plain bad shots, just like the folks who get their ccw and then don't go to the range and maintain their skills. It's perishable.
Widewing, nice training syllabus there. Did you ever to a cost analysis to see how much it would take to run it for say a 500 man department including recurrent training? I'd be interested to hear if you have had the opportunity to do that and find out how much training budget a department might have on an annual basis in today's economy and if your ideas fit in it.
The Rand Corporation developed the recommended syllabus. I do not know what cost analysis NYPD did, but considering the recent reduction in their budget, I wouldn't be surprised if they had done nothing as of yet.
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Yes, I did actually. Maybe 10-12 years ago.. We were developing shot-counters for a pilot program with the FBI. FBI agents reserved the Hogan's Alley operated by the Suffolk County PD. We spent the afternoon running the alley with 10mm S&W Model 1076, MP5 and MP5/10 subguns.. Was a hoot. At the end of the day, we still had ammo remaining. Two boxes of 9mm and about 70 rounds of 10mm. Because the paperwork involved to return ammo was daunting, the agents simply handed the ammunition to us. I still have the 10mm ammo, in my safe... Shot out the 9mm stuff within a week.
Like you, I've seen some insane behavior on public ranges. Seen some stupid stuff on Military ranges too. About 12 or so years ago, I led a team down to Fort Benning to test shot-counters on issue M16A2s (they worked well on new rifles, we wanted data on well used rifles). We were given a range position just down from where recruits were getting live fire training. Two recruits, on the last and nearest rifle pit position were grabassing. The one in the pit, with a magazine in his rifle, swept us as he turned around to jabber with the other. About 10 seconds later, he did it again, and then again! We were there with two civilian Army employees (who had requisitioned and provided the two M16s we were using). After the third sweep, I ran out of patience. I climbed out of the pit and walked over to the nearest instructor holding a cleaning rod (used to check for empty chambers or obstructed bores). I was really hot... I walked up and shoved my face into the instructor's and said, "the next time that soldier sweeps us with that weapon, I'm going to break it over his &%#@%$ head, and then I'm going take whatever is left of it and go find you."
He looked stunned...
Pointing at the recruit, I continued. "Three &%$@#&% times that man swept us with his weapon, playing grabass with his buddy there. Three times! It had better not happen again." I spun around and walked off as profuse apologies and "won't happen again, Sir" followed me...
Needless to say, things got really exciting for those two knuckleheads. Just as I headed back to our group, an officer walks over to my guys. He was the officer responsible for supporting our testing program. He overheard my raising hell, but didn't hear the details. We told him what had occurred and he said he would attend to the problem. I looked over at two recruits doing push-ups in a mud puddle and said, "I think I made my point, Major, but that's your call."
Follow up... The Army didn't buy the shot counters. The Navy did! 12,200 of them for installation in M4 carbines. Colt, who manufacture the M4 is negotiating with the services to install the counters as OEM. FN makes the M16A2, and they have been trying to develop their own shot counter design, thus far without success. Since they also make the SCAR, we haven't gotten on that yet, although we passed the testing and the SEALs want it. Politics, as usual.
Yes sir, you can find dumb almost anywhere....
Sounds like it was a hoot. I have often thought about how fun it would be.
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well, based on the fact that your average gun owner doesnt do as much training with arms as your average police officer, then most likely that is the proof that your average police officer is better trained than your average gun owner.
you are dreaming if you think your average gun owner is equally or better trained than the police.
semp
Fact?
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Fact?
He is full of... them.
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Fact?
Yeah those police officers do alot of "stare at Canadian and put hand on pistol slowly" drills
(sorry Sempers couldnt resist)
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some of the local police do training at my gunclub. luckily they have some smart people working for them. they shoot with sirens blaring and lights flashing, and go right into dusk. looks like great training for them. they seem to be pretty good shots, although i've never really watched them.
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Yes, I did actually. Maybe 10-12 years ago.. We were developing shot-counters for a pilot program with the FBI. FBI agents reserved the Hogan's Alley operated by the Suffolk County PD. We spent the afternoon running the alley with 10mm S&W Model 1076, MP5 and MP5/10 subguns.. Was a hoot. At the end of the day, we still had ammo remaining. Two boxes of 9mm and about 70 rounds of 10mm. Because the paperwork involved to return ammo was daunting, the agents simply handed the ammunition to us. I still have the 10mm ammo, in my safe... Shot out the 9mm stuff within a week.
Like you, I've seen some insane behavior on public ranges. Seen some stupid stuff on Military ranges too. About 12 or so years ago, I led a team down to Fort Benning to test shot-counters on issue M16A2s (they worked well on new rifles, we wanted data on well used rifles). We were given a range position just down from where recruits were getting live fire training. Two recruits, on the last and nearest rifle pit position were grabassing. The one in the pit, with a magazine in his rifle, swept us as he turned around to jabber with the other. About 10 seconds later, he did it again, and then again! We were there with two civilian Army employees (who had requisitioned and provided the two M16s we were using). After the third sweep, I ran out of patience. I climbed out of the pit and walked over to the nearest instructor holding a cleaning rod (used to check for empty chambers or obstructed bores). I was really hot... I walked up and shoved my face into the instructor's and said, "the next time that soldier sweeps us with that weapon, I'm going to break it over his &%#@%$ head, and then I'm going take whatever is left of it and go find you."
He looked stunned...
Pointing at the recruit, I continued. "Three &%$@#&% times that man swept us with his weapon, playing grabass with his buddy there. Three times! It had better not happen again." I spun around and walked off as profuse apologies and "won't happen again, Sir" followed me...
Needless to say, things got really exciting for those two knuckleheads. Just as I headed back to our group, an officer walks over to my guys. He was the officer responsible for supporting our testing program. He overheard my raising hell, but didn't hear the details. We told him what had occurred and he said he would attend to the problem. I looked over at two recruits doing push-ups in a mud puddle and said, "I think I made my point, Major, but that's your call."
Follow up... The Army didn't buy the shot counters. The Navy did! 12,200 of them for installation in M4 carbines. Colt, who manufacture the M4 is negotiating with the services to install the counters as OEM. FN makes the M16A2, and they have been trying to develop their own shot counter design, thus far without success. Since they also make the SCAR, we haven't gotten on that yet, although we passed the testing and the SEALs want it. Politics, as usual.
Yes sir, you can find dumb almost anywhere....
I think I might have a Ft. Benning story you will enjoy . While going through BRM training . We had finished all phases but practice then final qualification . While doing the practice qualification the guy in a firing position several down from me put his Rifle on full auto and attempted to engage some birds flying by . The birds darted and wheeled and zoomed to the ground . I saw a round strike a little ways out from me . Dove to the bottom of my hole and did not want to come out . Yes yu can find stupid anywhere . The infanty requires the lowest score of any MOS on the asvab .
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The Rand Corporation developed the recommended syllabus. I do not know what cost analysis NYPD did, but considering the recent reduction in their budget, I wouldn't be surprised if they had done nothing as of yet.
Wonder what the shooting will cost them ?
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WOW! this threat ain't locked.... :rofl I carry a pistol. Large snake shot in the pipe, hurts like hell, but not lethal/wont go thru walls, the rest in the 16 rnd clip are BIG Daisy Cutter hallow points. If you're not armed and not charging, I aim main body/knees snake rnd, if advancing face shot with snake round, armed? double tap, twice...dog, face shot with snake round, :ahand + practice practice practice..... :rock
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If guns were outlawed in the US it would be better for everyone. :old:
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If guns were outlawed in the US it would be better for everyone. :old:
except the victims of armed criminals...who will always be armed. The cops can't keep illegal guns & drugs off the street now...? because there's a law criminals can't get guns? just because you say so?
(http://api.ning.com/files/EIz7ZHp9q1Jp1Bc7s4JxBN76aEqXqw*L9YEQ8DA4jMBEq927neAnGgXz1gvRm1sob67Ve-b028krJGV6TXdl1*EbzF9qCxaR/image013MA253770510013.jpg) :noid
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Why is Castro on that poster?
What did he do?
Is Guantanamo on Cuba?
I heard Cuba has the highest literacy rate in per capita of any nation. (They read books)
And they have a good health service as well.
I knew someone who went on holiday there, he was into cigars.
What is the American gun laws to do with that poster?
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If guns were outlawed in the US it would be better for everyone. :old:
If Pies were outlawed it would be better for the Thames. :old:
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Why is Castro on that poster?
What did he do?
Is Guantanamo on Cuba?
I heard Cuba has the highest literacy rate in per capita of any nation. (They read books)
And they have a good health service as well.
I knew someone who went on holiday there, he was into cigars.
What is the American gun laws to do with that poster?
Wow... tell that to all the cubans that flee there yearly.
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Are you still at war with Cuba.?
Lots of people flee India every year are they baddies as well.
I have looked up Guantanamo it is on Cuba and is a navel base, you must have made up if you have a base there?
Castro must have given you the go ahead to have a base on his island.
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Are you still at war with Cuba.?
Lots of people flee India every year are they baddies as well.
Are you just spouting or have you asked any of the cubans yet?
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All the Cubans are not happy?
Are you basing your view on Cuba because people want to leave?
Lots of people leave the UK to goto New zealand.
I know nothng about Cuba except the Bay of pigs and there links to the Soviets.
The Cuban missile crisis was a direct link beween Jupiter missiles being held in Turkey aimed at the Soviet Union.
After the crisis the Turkish missiles supplied by the US were removed.
Spouting you seem angry.
What has a poster of loonies to do with Americans having guns in thier houses?
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Are you still at war with Cuba.?
Lots of people flee India every year are they baddies as well.
Until they apologize for pointing weapons at us they shall remain outcasts. Communism is not favored in the States. It would have been better if we invaded Cuba with Mcdonalds and Disney Cuba.
I talk to people in India all the time. Well every time I have an account problem. :D
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:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Indian call centre's rule :)
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If guns were outlawed in the US it would be better for everyone. :old:
Bollocks
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:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Indian call centre's rule :)
What makes John Runningrabbit so good at working a call center?
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I'll keep it brief, but knowing Cubans who left Cuba, and asking them about it, it's extremely repressive towards its citizens. One of my coworkers, who is in his late 30's, as well as my boss, who is in his late 40's, tell me the stories of what a police state it truly was, and remains, and how speaking out against the government, or even being caught with U.S. Dollars would land you in jail for inordinate amounts of time.
People fled the country, leaving all but a suitcase behind. They still do. That says something. They're leaving 99% of what they have to escape the regime there. Some bribe officials, if they have any wealth, as I've been told, and some try to make it over to Florida on boats or rafts. People don't leave the U.K. for N.Z. and have to leave their wealth behind.
Havana is supposedly a fantastic place to vacation, which is in stark contrast to the living conditions of the people who work there.
Without getting into politics, I don't know why the U.S. still enforces an embargo on Cuba while having free trade with China. IMO, the Cuban-exile voice in South Florida is disproportionally strong when a small number can dictate an entire nation's stance towards a country.
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If guns were outlawed in the US it would be better for everyone. :old:
Why because we kicked you old world a** twice with them? we aint gonna forget you tried to take our freedom twice
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All the Cubans are not happy?
Are you basing your view on Cuba because people want to leave?
Lots of people leave the UK to goto New zealand.
I know nothng about Cuba except the Bay of pigs and there links to the Soviets.
The Cuban missile crisis was a direct link beween Jupiter missiles being held in Turkey aimed at the Soviet Union.
After the crisis the Turkish missiles supplied by the US were removed.
Spouting you seem angry.
What has a poster of loonies to do with Americans having guns in thier houses?
None of the folks listed on the poster has been a dictator in the US.
It makes it a trifle difficult to do so against the will of the citizens when they are legally armed.
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I thought democracy and elections kept out Dictators out of the US?
Where is Guantanamo? I don't understand it being in Cuba :cry
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I thought democracy and elections kept out Dictators out of the US?
Where is Guantanamo? I don't understand it being in Cuba :cry
You know kkinda like Wales being in England.
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I thought democracy and elections kept out Dictators out of the US?
Where is Guantanamo? I don't understand it being in Cuba :cry
Elections allow us to choose the leaders, the 2nd amendment make it difficult for them to become dictatorial.
Guantanamo Naval Base is in Cuba. It is a refueling port for the US Navy. My grandfather served on a fleet oilier in WWII and they picked up fuel there many times. It has been on lease from Cuba since 1903.
Castro does not like us being there and has claimed that the lease signed in 1903 is not valid as Cuba was not a sovereign nation at the the time and they did not have the right as a nation to lease the land to the US.
However, since the time Castro has come to power he, mistakenly or otherwise, ratified the treaty, with full sovereignty and blessing of the Castro regime by cashing one of the rent checks in accordance with the terms of the treaty, therefore undermining his claims of the invalidity of the treaty.
He took the money.
The embargo sucks as Cuban cigars are very tasty.
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So the US has a Naval base in Cuba?
And it has a trade embargo with Cuba?
And Castro is still in charge?
So Castro has let the US into Cuba?
Can someone please verify the above, because its a bit confusing.
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So the US has a Naval base in Cuba?
Yes
And it has a trade embargo with Cuba?
Yes
And Castro is still in charge?
Depends on which on yoyur talking about
So Castro has let the US into Cuba?
we bought it and have kept it since then..
Can someone please verify the above, because its a bit confusing.
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Thanks Von at last.
So the US was paying Castro for the rights to have a Naval base. :)
How much did you give him?
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So the US has a Naval base in Cuba?
And it has a trade embargo with Cuba?
And Castro is still in charge?
So Castro has let the US into Cuba?
Can someone please verify the above, because its a bit confusing.
We have been there, with a naval base, since 1903.
Yes there is a trade embargo.
A Castro is still in charge (for now)
Castro has not let the US into Cuba (see above). In fact, they like our money but you can't fly from the US to Cuba, you must fly to Canada or somewhere else, first.
Duly verified. Still confused?
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I thought the cold war had finished. :confused:
Are Cuba going to invade America?
What did Castro actually do to the US?
Is this the reason for Guns in a America, if so its a bit far fetch that anyone would want to invade the US.
If they did they would buy a 4x4 and open a business.
I bought some Lambretta wheels from Vietnam, they were very good :old:
Are you allowed to buy anything from Vietnam in the US?
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I thought the cold war had finished. :confused:
Are Cuba going to invade America?
What did Castro actually do to the US?
It has.
If the embargo is ever lifted, I believe that Cuba will certainly feel like they are being invaded by America. (please refer back to the tasty cigar comment)
He spearheaded a violent overthrow of the existing government, kicked out most US businesses (read: mostly casinos staffed and ran by various organized crime families from the US) and allowed the USSR to park nuclear warheads only a few hundred miles from the US mainland.
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They removed the missiles off Cuba and then US missiles were took off the Soviet border in Turkey?
And the Mafia were thrown out off Cuba?
And all Americans have to be armed to protect then from these people?
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I count the days until the embargo is lifted.
Then I can purchase some nice cuban cigars much more easily.
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They removed the missiles off Cuba and then US missiles were took off the Soviet border in Turkey?
And the Mafia were thrown out off Cuba?
And all Americans have to be armed to protect then from these people?
Yes. The Operation Emily missiles were removed, also :D
Yes.
Not all, just the ones who choose to be to protect themselves from those kinds of people.
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And all Americans have to be armed to protect then from these people?
Nope we olny arm ourselves against old world tea totaling types.
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All the Cubans are not happy?
Are you basing your view on Cuba because people want to leave?
Lots of people leave the UK to goto New zealand.
I know nothng about Cuba except the Bay of pigs and there links to the Soviets.
The Cuban missile crisis was a direct link beween Jupiter missiles being held in Turkey aimed at the Soviet Union.
After the crisis the Turkish missiles supplied by the US were removed.
Spouting you seem angry.
What has a poster of loonies to do with Americans having guns in thier houses?
You answered my question. You know nothing about cuba.
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You answered my question. You know nothing about cuba.
That or hes trolling for a political theamed response.
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The Cuban policy is 'different', to say the least.
If you flee from Cuba and make it "feet dry" on the U.S., you're here to stay and start being processed towards citizenship.
If you flee from Haiti, for instance, you're sent back.
Not the best link, but it gives a simple overview: http://immigration.about.com/od/immigrationlawandpolicy/a/U-S-Allows-Cuban-Migrants-Different-Treatment.htm
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All i know about Cuba is basic history taught in schools in the UK. (Basic History)
Its is not a Troll.
You are still angry at Cuba and you have a base there its very confusing.(I did not know you do not still trade with it)
And you need personal arms to protect yourselves from said people, this link between defending you rights and owning a gun is silly.
I understand you have the right to defend yourself from criminals, but linking it to defending yourself from the government is ridiculous and childish.
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I understand you have the right to defend yourself from criminals, but linking it to defending yourself from the government is ridiculous and childish.
Says the Sheeple of the UK that are used to being lead around by the nose by the monarchy?
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zack don't argue that point, lots of people here believe the government is about to put us in concentration camps.
semp
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zack don't argue that point, lots of people here believe the government is about to put us in concentration camps.
semp
Can you unequivocally disprove they aren't? Thats why thew Air Force is figthing the Cia right now in tunnels under California to prevent this
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All i know about Cuba is basic history taught in schools in the UK. (Basic History)
Its is not a Troll.
You are still angry at Cuba and you have a base there its very confusing.(I did not know you do not still trade with it)
And you need personal arms to protect yourselves from said people, this link between defending you rights and owning a gun is silly.
I understand you have the right to defend yourself from criminals, but linking it to defending yourself from the government is ridiculous and childish.
Us having a base there is not really because we like them or they like us. They don't want it there but we have a lease so we keep it. It is the international equivalent of "come at me bro."
The embargo is still active and I seriously doubt it will go away until there is no Castro in power.
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All i know about Cuba is basic history taught in schools in the UK. (Basic History)
Its is not a Troll.
You are still angry at Cuba and you have a base there its very confusing.(I did not know you do not still trade with it)
And you need personal arms to protect yourselves from said people, this link between defending you rights and owning a gun is silly.
I understand you have the right to defend yourself from criminals, but linking it to defending yourself from the government is ridiculous and childish.
Your statement shows a lack of knowlege on the subject of cuba and our second amendment rights and reasoning.
Not sure who you are talking to about being angry at cuba. To me cuba is just a little dry spot south of Florida. It means nothing to me.
You might want to actually read up on those subjects before you post.
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Says the Sheeple of the UK that are used to being lead around by the nose by the monarchy?
The British have been ruled since 1066 by Norman the Conquer and his lot, they are still here ie The Duke of Westminister.
Britain is a Democracy and has a Constitutional Monarchy.
We are not armed because we don't think the elected government wants to do something to us.
You have guns in the US to stop crimminals not governments its nonsense. (people who own guns are not that important)
The Americans do what there government tells them like everyone else, its called law and order.
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Your statement shows a lack of knowlege on the subject of cuba and our second amendment rights and reasoning.
Not sure who you are talking to about being angry at cuba. To me cuba is just a little dry spot south of Florida. It means nothing to me.
You might want to actually read up on those subjects before you post.
you want to learn some manners :old:
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you want to learn some manners :old:
Well he did make a point kind of. The embargo exist at least partially because not many really care what we do or do not do in regards to cuba. I only care because I like a cigar every once in a while.
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This US experiment was different than any Government on the Earth when it was founded.
A Government of the People not of a ruling class that made decisions for thier subjects.
The first 10 amendments are the bill of rights.
The right to bear arms is #2 just after the freedom to speak out against things you don't like about said Government.
Many People around the world are jailed for speech.
Tyrants in government want power over the people and try to pick away at these rights.
If they can take away one they will go after the next and so on. So understand the Right to keep and bear arms by Honest Citizens is crucial to the Ideals of Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
The US Constitution is not to be toyed with by those that wish to perform social experiments.
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Says the Sheeple of the UK that are used to being lead around by the nose by the monarchy?
It's a Single Party Autocrasy / Constitutional Monarchy. The Monarchy does not lead anyone around.
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The right to bare arms does not maintain Democracy.
We in the UK are a Democracy and don't bare arms
The myth that we are ruled is nonsense, the same people are related to your lot in New England.
You have guns to defend yourself from crimminals thats all.
If i lived in America I would have Thompson with a sign outside my door saying keep out.
You can have guns in the UK for shooting ducks and rabbits not governments.
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It's a Single Party Autocrasy / Constitutional Monarchy. The Monarchy does not lead anyone around.
No but house of Commons sure does cameras looking in your window forom the street> No problem, no ability to defend ourself should the Monarchy decide they are tired of people Making fun of charles' and Anne's chins or lack there of and take back there country whos gonna stop them? BAA sheeple BAA!
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The right to bare arms does not maintain Democracy.
We in the UK are a Democracy and don't bare arms
The myth that we are ruled is nonsense, the same people are related to your lot in New England.
You have guns to defend yourself from crimminals thats all.
If i lived in America I would have Thompson with a sign outside my door saying keep out.
You can have guns in the UK for shooting ducks and rabbits not governments.
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Crazy lag today tbl post.
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TRPL! post nonsense!!!
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We do have a lot of cameras to be honest.
You have a point.
everytime they look at the footage its always blurred.
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everytime they look at the footage its always blurred.
well if they bougth the German cameras insead of the Indonesian one theyd have bette rquality.
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The right to bare arms does not maintain Democracy.
We in the UK are a Democracy and don't bare arms
The myth that we are ruled is nonsense, the same people are related to your lot in New England.
You have guns to defend yourself from crimminals thats all.
If i lived in America I would have Thompson with a sign outside my door saying keep out.
You can have guns in the UK for shooting ducks and rabbits not governments.
That is a byproduct of the second amendment, not the reason for it.
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Thanks Von at least you have some manners. :salute
And don't get angry at the drop of a hat. :confused:
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It's a Single Party Autocrasy / Constitutional Monarchy. The Monarchy does not lead anyone around.
I told you. We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in
turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week.
Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis
for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate
from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just
'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!
I mean, if I went 'round saying I was an emperor just because some
moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!
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I have not seen any damp chicks holding a someones weapon around here? :old:
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Thanks Von at least you have some manners. :salute
And don't get angry at the drop of a hat. :confused:
I like a good and logically constructed argument.
Name calling and/or insults are not needed, nor do they lend themselves to a mature discussion. However, I am capable of both.
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The right to bare arms does not maintain Democracy.
We in the UK are a Democracy and don't bare arms
The myth that we are ruled is nonsense, the same people are related to your lot in New England.
You have guns to defend yourself from crimminals thats all.
If i lived in America I would have Thompson with a sign outside my door saying keep out.
You can have guns in the UK for shooting ducks and rabbits not governments.
You can not have a gun to defend yourself in England it must be locked up without easy access. Your Government first told you to register them then when they banned what they didn't like they came and got them. As a free people we decided to trust the people.
Here we have the freedom to go with our friends to a local range and shoot many kinds of weapons at targets on a nice sunny day. This is something that would scare the pants off a socialist in Britain.
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I do like m16's to be honest.
lots of ammo :)
I moved this for you you posted it in an unrelated topic in General discussion. You are welcome
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I went clay shooting last week, does that count.?
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I moved this for you you posted it in an unrelated topic in General discussion. You are welcome
I am senile :old:
Anyone fired a M16?
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yes
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I am senile :old:
Anyone fired a M16?
Yes.
Slept with one, ate with one, showered with one, marched with one, etc...
I miss her. :cry
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Our Government is smart not trusting the general public, they can't even be trusted with kitchen knives.
The chance for the public to have easy access to guns would only up the rate of Gun crime; robberies and murders.
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I went clay shooting last week, does that count.?
Are you allowed to shoot a Handgun or Rifle at the range in England? If no then less free.
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Our Government is smart not trusting the general public, they can't even be trusted with kitchen knives.
The chance for the public to have easy access to guns would only up the rate of Gun crime; robberies and murders.
Sorry but failed logic. In our cities with the stiffest gunlaws we have the worst murder rate.
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Our Government is smart not trusting the general public, they can't even be trusted with kitchen knives.
The chance for the public to have easy access to guns would only up the rate of Gun crime; robberies and murders.
I would say the UK is much like the NZ Dolby ..... sure we aren't allowed to carry on person....but it is not hard to get a license and buy guns ....Laws only work on honest people our gangs here have better (and probably more hahahah) armament than our defense force...But this is New Zealand
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I would say the UK is much like the NZ Dolby ..... sure we aren't allowed to carry on person....but it is not hard to get a license and buy guns ....Laws only work on honest people our gangs here have better (and probably more hahahah) armament than our defense force...
NZ gangs?
Gangs of Sheep!!!!
their 'baaaaadddd'
sorry couldn't resist... :D
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(http://www.vendorsalleyglamis.com/images/SheepRockets.jpg)
you know it :D
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Our Government is smart not trusting the general public, they can't even be trusted with kitchen knives.
The chance for the public to have easy access to guns would only up the rate of Gun crime; robberies and murders.
Before your goverment gets elected in who are they? They are the GENERAL PUBLIC woho cnat be trusted with kitchen knives, but somehow once the Sheeple put them in and with The Monarchy's blessing they can be trusted with nuke subs and Missiles
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Wanna know what happens if you can defend yourself from the goverment? Go googlge government massacres and se ejust how often it happens over there in the old world.
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Sorry but failed logic. In our cities with the stiffest gunlaws we have the worst murder rate.
the bold bit is crucial, we live in 2 very different societies. what works in one doesnt necessary work in the other. banning civilians from owning any firearms in the US makes about as much sense to me as importing 30 million assault rifles into the UK and telling people to help themselves.
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Are you allowed to shoot a Handgun or Rifle at the range in England? If no then less free.
Yes not automatics :old:
I meant M16 halftrack :old:
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Yes not automatics :old:
I meant M16 halftrack :old:
I know :devil Was like shooting fish in a barrel pointless but easy and fun.
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Before your goverment gets elected in who are they? They are the GENERAL PUBLIC woho cnat be trusted with kitchen knives, but somehow once the Sheeple put them in and with The Monarchy's blessing they can be trusted with nuke subs and Missiles
I don't think any of our current leaders (The Eton lot especially) would ever say they were apart of the general public.
And no, I don't trust any politicians with anything. An Armed populace does not automaticially make politicians anymore honest. (Which is what I believe is what your pushing.)
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zack don't argue that point, lots of people here believe the government is about to put us in concentration camps.
semp
:rofl :aok
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the bold bit is crucial, we live in 2 very different societies. what works in one doesnt necessary work in the other. banning civilians from owning any firearms in the US makes about as much sense to me as importing 30 million assault rifles into the UK and telling people to help themselves.
This is true we are different societies and we handle our own issues the best we can. We all want peace and as little chaos in our lives as possible. If your system serves you well then God Bless
Our system has served us well in some areas giving the freedom to the people so thier spirits can soar and created the powerhouse that spits money to all ends of the earth.
But powerful enemies of freedom are out there and wish to control others.
It's not about the guns It's about the freedom.
This is my last post in this thread. I'm suprised HT let it go this far. England is a fasinating place to us here in the states and we just wish the best for you Brits. :salute
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So the US has a Naval base in Cuba?
And it has a trade embargo with Cuba?
And Castro is still in charge?
So Castro has let the US into Cuba?
Can someone please verify the above, because its a bit confusing.
There's no need to be confused.... Google is your friend.
Yes, the U.S. has been in Guantanamo Bay since before there was a lease... 1898. I was assigned there from January 1976 through July 1977, flying Search and Rescue.
Yes, there is a trade embargo with Cuba. I think that the best way to democratize Cuba is to lift the embargo and allow trade and tourism.
Castro has stepped down and Raul Castro is the official head of the Government, but you can bet he dances to Fidel's tune.
The lease with Cuba expired in 2002... But the U.S. will not be leaving anytime soon. Castro cut off fresh water decades ago, and he stopped Cubans from holding jobs on the base (through attrition). He hasn't used a nickel of the "rent" paid to a special account.
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Before your goverment gets elected in who are they? They are the GENERAL PUBLIC woho cnat be trusted with kitchen knives, but somehow once the Sheeple put them in and with The Monarchy's blessing they can be trusted with nuke subs and Missiles
I love the way you change your tune to suit the misguided point you are trying to make at any given time, they are not of the proletariat, as your politicians are not. The vast majority of MP's are from large country piles with a few Knighthoods and letters after their fathers names.
Not one Prime Minister has been of working class, not one US President has been "of the people" including Lincoln who said that. The closest you have come so far is Barrack Obama
The monarchy may be an anathema to you, but it is a symbol of this great country as much as its flag. I have all the admiration for them, especially for the members that put themselves in harms way on the front line, and have done throughout our history. :salute
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Can you unequivocally disprove they aren't? Thats why thew Air Force is figthing the Cia right now in tunnels under California to prevent this
You and RngFndr need to get together
Quote from RNGFNDR
SpI/phones??? Not in my world.. Simple cells are bad enough..
Reinstalling dedicated landlines, moving away from cellphone..
We have a shielded box that the phones go in at home..
No RF in or out, unless we choose to allow it..
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You and RngFndr need to get together
Quote from RNGFNDR
SpI/phones??? Not in my world.. Simple cells are bad enough..
Reinstalling dedicated landlines, moving away from cellphone..
We have a shielded box that the phones go in at home..
No RF in or out, unless we choose to allow it..
do you have your sarcasm font installed? if you dont then perhaps you should install it.
semp
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do you have your sarcasm font installed? if you dont then perhaps you should install it.
semp
I thought the sarcasm was fairly self evident in that post :uhoh
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I thought the sarcasm was fairly self evident in that post :uhoh
It takes a while for some to understand it...
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It takes a while for some to understand it...
Yep its fairly self evident some rail on others yet they truely dont understand what is going on around them. Danny can I have some proof re: you accusations against me? Show me where i have changed my tune.
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Yep its fairly self evident some rail on others yet they truely dont understand what is going on around them. Danny can I have some proof re: you accusations against me? Show me where i have changed my tune.
First its the monarchy that are leading us by our noses, then it's the government. :bhead
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First its the monarchy that are leading us by our noses, then it's the government. :bhead
RUN!!
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First its the monarchy that are leading us by our noses, then it's the government. :bhead
Its painfully obvious the school system in merry olde is lacking in imparting the importance of reading and comprehension. THE MONARCHY runs your goverment. If your gov't is made up by folkks that are knighted Who KNIGHTS THEM? Who awarded thier families land? Stop being Naiive. Its no wonder the Royal family has been in power so long you guys are a bunch of sheeple. The UK will never be free until the pesanetry rises up and slips the bods of tyranny.
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Danny should apologise !
Its a disgrace!
There was a comedy program called "Euro trash" on BBC2 presented by a French man it was very funny and summed up why the Americans think we are all odd. :old:
The episode with the Germans pulling that little carriage was very informative :old:
Revolution is at hand in the UK but might have to wait until last orders is called in the pub :old:
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Danny should apologise !
Its a disgrace!
There was a comedy program called "Euro trash" on BBC2 presented by a French man it was very funny and summed up why the Americans think we are all odd. :old:
The episode with the Germans pulling that little carriage was very informative :old:
(http://farm1.staticflickr.com/3/6677051_13de4e3f3e.jpg)
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Its painfully obvious the school system in merry olde is lacking in imparting the importance of reading and comprehension. THE MONARCHY runs your goverment. If your gov't is made up by folkks that are knighted Who KNIGHTS THEM? Who awarded thier families land? Stop being Naiive. Its no wonder the Royal family has been in power so long you guys are a bunch of sheeple. The UK will never be free until the pesnetry rises up and slips the bods of tyranny.
I'm going to have to interject for a moment here and point this out... since you are lambasting the English with regard to their comprehension of English
Just saying...
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Von is the voice of reason :old:
I have alway liked Canadians good manners <S>
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I'm going to have to interject for a moment here and point this out... since you are lambasting the English with regard to their comprehension of English
Just saying...
I knew you would like that as I said befor e I speak the President's Merican not the Queen's English.
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Its painfully obvious the school system in merry olde is lacking in imparting the importance of reading and comprehension. THE MONARCHY runs your goverment. If your gov't is made up by folkks that are knighted Who KNIGHTS THEM? Who awarded thier families land? Stop being Naiive. Its no wonder the Royal family has been in power so long you guys are a bunch of sheeple. The UK will never be free until the pesanetry rises up and slips the bods of tyranny.
yummy. this irony is delicious!
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Pies!
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You are ignoring this user. Show me the post.
Things just got a whole lot better. That has to be a cull of atleast 50% of the daftest posts ever seen on the AH BBS. :D
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Things just got a whole lot better. That has to be a cull of atleast 50% of the daftest posts ever seen on the AH BBS. :D
Welcome back to the forums Dolby :old:
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Welcome back to the forums Dolby :old:
:cheers:
Got pies?
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:cheers:
Got pies?
LOL speaking of daft! Suck it up and read the post Dolby.
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yummy. this irony is delicious!
Seriously I dont see and irony at all in what I'm saying here all you habve is personal attacks because you can not disprove my facts and it scares the sheeple.
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Seriously I dont see and irony at all in what I'm saying here all you habve is personal attacks because you can not disprove my facts and it scares the sheeple.
Seriously, I have seen a lot of personal attacks from you, actually.
Calling folks sheeple, making fun of other's government, their education system...
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Seriously, I have seen a lot of personal attacks from you, actually.
Calling folks sheeple, making fun of other's government, their education system...
would we call that hypocracy or irony?
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Things just got a whole lot cloudier. That has to be a cull of atleast 50% of the deftest explination posts ever seen on the AH BBS. :D
Fixed
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What did you fix?
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What did you fix?
The daft/deft mix up.
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Didn't realize that it was broken...
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Didn't realize that it was broken...
It wasn't until explination :bhead
Can yer explin wot yer ment?
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Seriously, I have seen a lot of personal attacks from you, actually.
Calling folks sheeple, making fun of other's government, their education system...
To be honest we call the above ourselves all the time.
We like being miserable it makes up for the British Empire and Polo.
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To be honest we call the above ourselves all the time.
We like being miserable it makes up for the British Empire and Polo.
Nothing makes up for Polo. :old:
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It wasn't until explination :bhead
Can yer explin wot yer ment?
can you explane to me the problem there?
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I told you. We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in
turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week.
Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis
for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate
from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just
'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!
I mean, if I went 'round saying I was an emperor just because some
moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!
:rofl Love that movie
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Thank God...
I was starting to lose faith in my fellow man, especially the Brits...
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:rofl Love that movie
I missed the reference the first time, shame on me.
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We have round tables everywhere but wet chicks are not as common nowadays. :old:
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We have round tables everywhere but wet chicks are not as common nowadays. :old:
I hear they like burberry stuf fover there. Maybe you should get some of that.
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I only wear silk :old:
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I only wear silk :old:
whut this doesnt come in Pie stain resistnat silk? (http://mandmglobal.com/Libraries/Blog_images/burberry_chav_1.sflb.ashx)
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I hear they like burberry stuf fover there. Maybe you should get some of that.
Think Burberry ended a while ago, now it's Henly's and Mackenzie and Super Dry.
And nasty tan coloured trousers with the drawstring in the ankles and the chavs arse hanging out of them
and big purple hats with silver bits on
and gigantic chains made of the cheapest quality gold, ( or the wrapping from easter eggs)
(http://i638.photobucket.com/albums/uu108/metallldan/chav.jpg)
although you may be right, this waste of oxygen is wearing what looks to be burberry
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Think Burberry ended a while ago, now it's Henly's and Mackenzie and Super Dry.
Thank you for fighting the good fight and ending the threat within your own shores before it spread.
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Do they have Chavs in India?
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Do they have Chavs in India?
I dont kno wbut I missed this thread where the big dawgs were fighting http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,338446.60.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,338446.60.html)
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Thank you for fighting the good fight and ending the threat within your own shores before it spread.
Absolutely. Much rather see a lot of idiots like this chap
(http://i638.photobucket.com/albums/uu108/metallldan/A-Mara-18-gang-member-004.jpg)
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Absolutely. Much rather see a lot of idiots like this chap
(http://i638.photobucket.com/albums/uu108/metallldan/A-Mara-18-gang-member-004.jpg)
oh man that's ink. now you did it.
semp
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having guns widely available makes everybody safer
just look at America
:headscratch:
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oh man that's ink. now you did it.
semp
:rofl
not quite
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So Nathan, you believe the English are ruled by a tyrannical monarchy? Either you're a few centuries late to the party or you are the most paranoid person I've ever had the misfortune of coming across. Then again, you also think the world is hollow and the CIA is fighting the Air Force in tunnels in California.
Guys its just been over a year since the DC/Denver nookquakes. The earth is hollow and ther eis a war raging betrween the airforce and navy vs. CIA/shadow gov't(alien overlords http://www.eutimes.net/2011/08/russia-reports-nuclear-explosions-hit-vast-us-military-tunnel-network/ (http://www.eutimes.net/2011/08/russia-reports-nuclear-explosions-hit-vast-us-military-tunnel-network/)
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having guns widely available makes everybody safer
just look at America
:headscratch:
I think I would rather live here than where you are. Check out the total percent of crime victims. I also notice there seems to be a high rate of suicides in New Zealand. :headscratch:
http://www.nationmaster.com/country/nz-new-zealand/cri-crime (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/nz-new-zealand/cri-crime)
While we are at it, here is one for the UK.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html)
:bolt:
Fred
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lol, when it comes to safety/crime I think I'm better off here, we don't even lock our doors :angel: let alone need an arsenal of firearms to feel safe
http://www.mercer.com/press-releases/quality-of-living-report-2011
Auckland #3, Wellington #13...first US city...#29....yep, I think i'd rather live here
oh and posting stuff from the Daily Mail doesn't prove much to most intelligent people, it's like the UK's Fox News :aok
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How are the sheep Coombzy?
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numerous
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we love you coombzy :cry
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lol, when it comes to safety/crime I think I'm better off here, we don't even lock our doors :angel: let alone need an arsenal of firearms to feel safe
http://www.mercer.com/press-releases/quality-of-living-report-2011
Auckland #3, Wellington #13...first US city...#29....yep, I think i'd rather live here
oh and posting stuff from the Daily Mail doesn't prove much to most intelligent people, it's like the UK's Fox News :aok
CNN and Fox are pretty much useless except for entertainment.
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So Nathan, you believe the English are ruled by a tyrannical monarchy? Either you're a few centuries late to the party or you are the most paranoid person I've ever had the misfortune of coming across. Then again, you also think the world is hollow and the CIA is fighting the Air Force in tunnels in California.
So youre saying this has been going on for hundreds of years?
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numerous
ahh but we established that they were...
b-a-a-a-a-a-a-d-d (read with a sheep/goat stutter)
CNN and Fox are pretty much useless except for entertainment.
:aok agreed
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having guns widely available makes everybody safer
just look at America
:headscratch:
To be fair cities in the US with the most stringent gun laws have the highest rate of gun violence. It's almost impossible to buy a gun in Chicago, D.C., and N.Y.
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So youre saying this has been going on for hundreds of years?
I'm saying that the English Revolution happened a few centuries ago, in the mid 1600's IIRC. Although the people eventually returned to a monarchy, the monarch currently has very little power.
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To be fair cities in the US with the most stringent gun laws have the highest rate of gun violence. It's almost impossible to buy a gun in Chicago, D.C., and N.Y.
to be fair they enacted the laws after the cities already had the highest rate of gun violence.
semp
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to be fair they enacted the laws after the cities already had the highest rate of gun violence.
semp
& that fixed the problem, because all the criminals went, "Oh my they outlawed my gun? I'll have to report & surrender it at the police station immediately or I could get in trouble...oh me Oh My!! what will I do?" :noid
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I am senile :old:
Anyone fired a M16?
Many thousands of rounds...... Shot out two barrels in testing.
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Many thousands of rounds...... Shot out two barrels in testing.
I grew up with guns like a lot of country folks...been shooting squirrels & rabbits since I was 8-9 years old. My dad's Rem 100 12 Ga. was bigger than me, but I shot birds & rabbits with it until he bought me my 870 pump still in the safe. Got to basic training & some kid was crying because the M-16 "Kicked too hard & scared him"... :huh I'm glad we weren't shooting M1 Garands or M14's or even M2's he would have wet himself. :salute
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.
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I grew up with guns like a lot of country folks...been shooting squirrels & rabbits since I was 8-9 years old. My dad's Rem 100 12 Ga. was bigger than me, but I shot birds & rabbits with it until he bought me my 870 pump still in the safe. Got to basic training & some kid was crying because the M-16 "Kicked too hard & scared him"... :huh I'm glad we weren't shooting M1 Garands or M14's or even M2's he would have wet himself. :salute
Shooting rabbits with a 12GA.. Guess you didn't eat rabbit stew very often. :)
Fred
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*sigh*
I would like to think most of the people who play AH enjoy history. Well, let's visit a piece of history. (BTW: I'm posting because seeing mindless people squabble has lost it's ability to create amusement)
"Japan would never invade the United States. We would find a rifle behind every blade of grass." Isoroku Yamamoto
NOW - before everyone goes batchit, there is no evidence he truly said the aforementioned quote however; the idea is still the same. Does this have anything to do against defending ourselves from our own government? No, but people are ignoring the fact that people owning guns does make it harder for someone to plan out a solid invasion of the U.S. ....well, if you forget California (excluding the USMC base there ;) ).
I don't have to worry about my first amendment as long as I have my second amendment.
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& that fixed the problem, because all the criminals went, "Oh my they outlawed my gun? I'll have to report & surrender it at the police station immediately or I could get in trouble...oh me Oh My!! what will I do?" :noid
did it make it worst?
semp
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NOW - before everyone goes batchit, there is no evidence he truly said the aforementioned quote however; the idea is still the same. Does this have anything to do against defending ourselves from our own government? No, but people are ignoring the fact that people owning guns does make it harder for someone to plan out a solid invasion of the U.S. ....well, if you forget California (excluding the USMC base there ;) ).
I don't have to worry about my first amendment as long as I have my second amendment.
That's why we have the most powerful military in the world, is it not?
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did it make it worst?
That's the wrong question to ask.
If it didn't improve the situation, it's a pointless piece of law. It costs money and inconveniences law-abiding citizens, so it dang-well better improve things.
If the law caused no measurable improvement, it's a failure.
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"Japan would never invade the United States. We would find a rifle behind every blade of grass." Isoroku Yamamoto
of course the zillions of ocean miles between japan and the usa had nothing to do with it either. we would have had one hell of a time invading or attacking japan held territory if it wasnt for australia and china and other countries nearby.
Japan never invaded american not because they were afraid of guns, but because it wasnt feasible to sustain a war that far away from supplies.
semp
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That's the wrong question to ask.
If it didn't improve the situation, it's a pointless piece of law. It costs money and inconveniences law-abiding citizens, so it dang-well better improve things.
If the law caused no measurable improvement, it's a failure.
you still didnt answer the question.
semp
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you still didnt answer the question.
semp
It's not a question that needs an answer. It's not a question that matters in this discussion any more than what I had for supper.
If the answer is "yes", the law is a failure.
If the answer is "no", the law is a failure.
For the answer to matter, we need to know if the law improved anything, not if it hurt anything.
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Japan never invaded american not because they were afraid of guns, but because it wasnt feasible to sustain a war that far away from supplies.
semp
Wrong wrong wrong wrong.
Japan invaded Alaska.
And as far as having the most powerful military in the world: Even the strongest armies have fallen to weaker enemies. Rome, Britain....Those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it.
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EDIT: What's easier to conquer? A country where no one has a firearm or a country where everyone has a gun?
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Wrong wrong wrong wrong.
Japan invaded Alaska.
And as far as having the most powerful military in the world: Even the strongest armies have fallen to weaker enemies. Rome, Britain....Those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it.
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EDIT: What's easier to conquer? A country where no one has a firearm or a country where everyone has a gun?
Or a country that has the capability to kill just about everyone on Earth, multiple times over? Give me a break.
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There is a new program starting soon on the history channel about Americans who are preparing for the breakdown of society. :old:
Just because you can have a gun dose not mean your going to be "Minute man" :old:
You own a gun because you can, which is only fair in a Democracy :old:
Gun laws are nonsense its a smoke screen to encourage the gun market, its like people saying God does not exist religious people crave it, Indifferance is their biggest fear. :old:
If there were no gun laws less guns would be sold, people crave what is under threat and cherish it more.
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That's the wrong question to ask.
If it didn't improve the situation, it's a pointless piece of law. It costs money and inconveniences law-abiding citizens, so it dang-well better improve things.
If the law caused no measurable improvement, it's a failure.
And there in lies the problem....
One can not have a proper control for validation. Without having two identical cities in two independent universes that have exactly the same people sharing the exact same time, there cannot be a clear concise Yes or No.
Some studies say it did such as the 1991 New England Journal of Medicine studies that claim it caused a 25% reduction, while other studies claim it didn't. How does one know exactly? Overall gun violence has gone down across the nation, but can anyone conclusively say why (with any credible control)?
Another question is are existing guns laws being enforced in the first place?
(one study found that just 120 dealers in 22 states sold nearly 55,000 guns linked to crime over five years)
What we can look at is the source of the guns.... and sadly most gun crime is committed with originally legally purchased weapons....
Did you know that over a third of crime committed with a gun involved guns less than 3 years old?
Did you know that most guns committed in crime have been traced to a handful of states?
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_DHcIJngEEpY/TKOOYfv59UI/AAAAAAAAVb0/H-L8rHwkXYQ/Fullscreen%20capture%209292010%2030627%20PM.bmp.jpg)
At the end, its about what do you believe (based off of your experience, bias, etc...)....
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Or a country that has the capability to kill just about everyone on Earth, multiple times over? Give me a break.
Rome conquered pretty much all of the known earth at the time and they fell. You are blind to history and therefore; stupid.
Ignorance is the lack of knowing. Stupidity is knowing, yet still believing something else.
Your inability to even believe in the fact that our military could fail....that's what got the Romans. They thought themselves invincible.
I work DAILY with the people you give so much praise to about their inability to be defeated and there's hundreds I've met that I would rather shoot in the face than have them watch my back. The sheer amount of incompetence will drive you ballistic....granted most of them wore grey cammies. *cough*
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The smart@.$.$ reply that is sure to follow this will be more than amusing. Honestly, if there is anyone on this forum I hate because they REFUSE to even ATTEMPT to see something in another light, it's you TJ.
You refuse to even give another idea other than your own a chance. You assume that you are 100% correct which means arguing with you is futile because I could hand you a grenade, tell you it is one and then you'd argue for the Golly-geened sake of arguing until you blew up and sprayed pink mist all over the room.
And with that; TJ will not ever get a reply from me again until that POS can open his mind. I'm not saying agree with everyone, but let some air into your f**king cranium and look at the subject from both sides before become a die hard d!ck rider for a subject.
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Maybe it's the lack of sleep, or maybe I've had it. All I know is that I'm going to bed.
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EDIT: Now THIS is Skuzzy bait.
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Your inability to even believe in the fact that our military could fail....that's what got the Romans. They thought themselves invincible.
I find it very easy to believe given the US military's failure quota over the last 60 odd years :)
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When have the US military failed?
They have not failed in any objectives since the 1945.
The Soviet Union is past and American Democracy is still functioning.
All military objectives were met.
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When have the US military failed?
They have not failed in any objectives since the 1945.
The Soviet Union is past and American Democracy is still functioning.
All military objectives were met.
:old:This is not a wholly unreasonable point. Also the US armed forces I have spent time with have been splendid fellows indeed. :salute
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:old:This is not a wholly unreasonable point. Also the US armed forces I have spent time with have been splendid fellows indeed. :salute
I will say, without hesitation, that the British troops I had the pleasure of meeting and working with were great, as well. I would fight side-by-side with them any day.
:salute
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lol, when it comes to safety/crime I think I'm better off here, we don't even lock our doors :angel: let alone need an arsenal of firearms to feel safe
But what if the tricksy hobbitses come out of their holes to steal your precious?
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Wrong wrong wrong wrong.
Japan invaded Alaska.
And as far as having the most powerful military in the world: Even the strongest armies have fallen to weaker enemies. Rome, Britain....Those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it.
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EDIT: What's easier to conquer? A country where no one has a firearm or a country where everyone has a gun?
I will have to say Alaska and Hawaii were not part of the US back then. They both became states the year I was born.
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cmon shuff, dont let facts stand in the way of a good (http://www.hummer4x4offroad.com/forum/images/smilies/icon%20slapfight.gif)
;)
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When have the US military failed?
despite their size and technological superiority to they have been made to look stupid in Vietnam, Iraq and now Afghanistan...all those millions (billions?) spent on the military and they get shown up by people most Americans would consider 3rd world peasants
and for what? If I had a family member dead from fighting any of those completely pointless wars i would be supremely disillusioned
Vietnam and Afghanistan especially they should have learned from the lessons of other countries in the past.
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despite their size and technological superiority to they have been made to look stupid in Vietnam, Iraq and now Afghanistan...all those millions (billions?) spent on the military and they get shown up by people most Americans would consider 3rd world peasants
and for what? If I had a family member dead from fighting any of those completely pointless wars i would be supremely disillusioned
Vietnam and Afghanistan especially they should have learned from the lessons of other countries in the past.
The military did not loose in any of the actions you listed. The issues concerning Vietnam and Afghanistan were the civilian leadership, not the military. As far as Iraq is concern, in short, Bush directed the military to bring Saddam down, and along with the US allies that is exactly what they did. He left the tactical decisions up to the military leaders. The aftermath is not to be blamed on the military but should be blamed on the civilian leaders.
Fred
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Coombzy you have gone barmy :old:
The US won on all these fronts and have stopped the ideologies of radicalism spreading outside the borders of these countries.
All the objectives of containing Communism in South East Asia were fulfilled.
The scale and effect of modern warfare in Vietnam demonstrated to the Soviet's and Chinese the lengths and commitment the US would follow.
That is why today the Russian's sell the most diamonds and gold in the world and the Chinese have investment galore from the Western banking system. (The US won the Coldwar)
If they had not defeated these ideologies you would not be living in New Zealand
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Coombzy you have gone barmy :old:
:rofl the US invented Communism when they ran out of Indians
;)
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Coombzy you have gone barmy :old:
The US won on all these fronts and have stopped the ideologies of radicalism spreading outside the borders of these countries.
All the objectives of containing Communism in South East Asia were fulfilled.
The scale and effect of modern warfare in Vietnam demonstrated to the Soviet's and Chinese the lengths and commitment the US would follow.
That is why today the Russian's sell the most diamonds and gold in the world and the Chinese have investment galore from the Western banking system. (The US won the Coldwar)
If they had not defeated these ideologies you would not be living in New Zealand
I'm pretty sure the idea of Vietnam was to not let North Vietnam run rampant in South Vietnam....What happened there? Our boys in uniform did their job, but in the end; the overall objective was not reached. Vietnam is still a communist country.
The overall scheme was to prevent Vietnam from becoming a communist state. Objective failed. Did it stop spreading? Sure, but it's not like it had much more places to go in that area without hopping on boats.
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Also, Alaska may not have been a state but it was a U.S. territory.
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On topic:
Bystander Fired Deadly Shot, Not Officer
There were two big developments Monday in the case of a motorist who was shot and killed along Greenwell Springs Road Friday after a fight with a police officer. Investigators say an autopsy shows the deadly bullet was fired by a bystander, not the officer. Police also announced that no charges would be filed in the case, either against the police officer involved or the bystander who fired the fatal shot into the head of George Temple.
East Baton Rouge Sheriff's spokesman Greg Phares says Officer Brian Harrision was escorting a funeral procession Friday when he pulled Temple over and wrote him a ticket for breaking into the procession. According to Phares, that's when Temple attacked Harrison. Police say Perry Stevens was walking outside of the Auto Zone on Greenwell Springs Road when he heard Harrison yelling for help. Harrison was reportedly on his back with Temple on top of him. That's when Stevens went to his car and grabbed his .45 caliber pistol.
According to Col. Greg Phares, "[Mr. Stevens] orders Mr. Temple to stop and get off the officer. The verbal commands are ignored and Mr. Stevens fires four shots, all of which struck Mr. Temple."
Perry Stevens fired four shots into Temple's torso. Officer Harrison had already fired one shot into Temple's abdomen. With Temple still struggling with the officer, Perry continued to advance toward the scuffle.
"He again orders Mr. Temple to stop what he was doing and get off the officer. Those commands are ignored and he fires a fifth shot and that hits his head. The incident is over with, and as you know, Mr. Temple is dead."
Police are calling the shooting death justified. Perry Stevens has a permit to carry a concealed weapon. Col. Phares would not give out any more details relating to the shooting. Both Phares and Baton Rouge Police Chief Jeff LeDuff stopped short of crediting Stevens with saving the officer's life. LeDuff says the entire incident is unfortunate.
"I spoke with his father at the scene briefly," said LeDuff. "I think this is a tragic situation all around."
9 News is told George Temple has a criminal record, and Officer Harrison was involved in a shooting while employed as a prison guard in East Baton Rouge Parish, where he was suspended for three days back in 1995.
Reporter: Jim Shannon
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But what if the tricksy hobbitses come out of their holes to steal your precious?
my son is an orc and my brother in law is an elvish lord so we are protected against those kinds of shenanigans ;d
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Its was called the "Containment policy" in South East Asia. (If you type it into Wikaidiot it may be there.)
Averall Harriman did mention these forthcoming events in his 1956 book "American Diplomacy" i read it while on nightshift in a microfilm factory.
The US makes Aeroplanes,Cars and McDonald's, Vietnam make shoes out of old tyres they lost.
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Marine, if you honestly think that any invading country could withstand the roughly 5,000 nuclear warheads we have in stock, and that if they did, Billy Joe and the NR "A-Team" would stop them, then I'm wasting my time. There, there's your smart-ass response; I hope you found it amusing, but also realized the absurdity of saying that the 2nd Amendment will be a detterent to any country in the thermonuclear age that we live in. Also, as far as seeing things from both sides, I posted an essay that I wrote a couple years back in the other gun control thread where I argued the exact opposite of what I was arguing in that thread, and used many of the exact same points you guys guys use, so I'm not sure what that accusation is based in.
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The US makes Aeroplanes,Cars and McDonald's, Vietnam make shoes out of old tyres they lost.
they kicked the crap out of the most powerful military in the world while wearing their shoes made out of old tyres :)
the US sent boys overseas to fight for a cause they didn't really understand or care about, while the Vietnamese were fighting to preserve their homeland, freedom and way of life, first against the French for years and years and then against the Americans...no wonder they were more motivated
this is way too off topic :old:
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afghan and iraq were about lining a few peoples pockets. job done! :aok
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afghan and iraq were about lining a few peoples pockets. job done! :aok
war is good business
invest your son!
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It is fun watching all the backslapping.
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RT and Coombzy have a healthy and free life style because of American Military and Political engagements. :old:
This is rather insulting to all those contributed to defending Democracy and your way of Life.
This smug Liberal stance in regards realpolitics is easy when you have BMW or Mercedes parked outside.
Chamberlain had the same stance with his bit of paper I recall :old:
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Yes zack the Americans went into Vietnam to free the suffering people from the evil clutches of Communism! :x
However some of the Vietnamese people ungratefully decided they would rather be alive than 'free'.
I for one am grateful to the American military for forging the wonderful world we have today where terrorists have killed civilians in the US and the UK in retaliation for America's brilliant foreign policy in the Middle East
Iran will be next as Uncle Sam continues the trend of bending over for Israel :angel:
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oooo cool I'm getting a merc! :banana:
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:)
Appeasment did not work in the 1930's and does not work today.
Guns in America have nothing to do with defending liberty.
Liberty is defended by the Democratic process.
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Seems like the answer is to teach people from a early age to be responsible gun owners and arm everyone. The fundamental problem with guns is that they can be used to instill fear in people, if you take that power away you can fix the problem. You're never going to take guns away from the American people, you couldn't do it if you passed every anti gun law you could imagine. Americans have just about as many guns in this country as we do people. America's gun culture makes us unique, trained gun owners have always been the fourth tier of government. People trying to destroy that will always have their motives questioned.
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hehehe, we could go off topic some more if I poured scorn on the notion that America really has much of a 'Democratic process' in reality these days
but I won't
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hehehe, we could go off topic some more if I poured scorn on the notion that America really has much of a 'Democratic process' in reality these days
but I won't
No go ahead I would love to hear your informed opinion on the American democratic process. I am sure it will be filled with facts and be very well thought out.
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hehehe, we could go off topic some more if I poured scorn on the notion that America really has much of a 'Democratic process' in reality these days
but I won't
The difference is that the American people have means to change our corrupt government.
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No go ahead I would love to hear your informed opinion on the American democratic process. I am sure it will be filled with facts and be very well thought out.
a 2 party system where both parties are identical except when it comes to media-friendly talking points like abortion/immigration/gun control :)
no matter who is elected the real people in power will continue doing their thing, the Commander in chief is just a figurehead for the proles to argue about, and to distract them from the real issues
as South Park eloquently put it, you have the choice between a giant do uche and a turd sandwich ;D
happy to help
The difference is that the American people have means to change our corrupt government.
that's as much an illusion as the idea that voting affects the control of your country ;)
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our government is corrupt i must agree people are getting killed by people who they know are unstable I say we rebel!!!!!!!!!!!
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they kicked the crap out of the most powerful military in the world while wearing their shoes made out of old tyres :)
the US sent boys overseas to fight for a cause they didn't really understand or care about, while the Vietnamese were fighting to preserve their homeland, freedom and way of life, first against the French for years and years and then against the Americans...no wonder they were more motivated
this is way too off topic :old:
China had a huge say in what happened. Just like in Korea.
Our government drew a line not to be crossed. You can't win wars that way.
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a 2 party system where both parties are identical except when it comes to media-friendly talking points like abortion/immigration/gun control :)
no matter who is elected the real people in power will continue doing their thing, the Commander in chief is just a figurehead for the proles to argue about, and to distract them from the real issues
as South park eloquently put it, you have the choice between a giant do uche and a turd sandwich ;D
happy to help
Well backing up your opinion with a quote from south park is classic. :rofl
Same as saying the parties are identical except for issues that are obviously important to people. They would not be "talking-points" if no one cared. The people in power were elected or appointed by people elected at some point.
The one thing that you said that had a modicum of truth was the president is more or less a figurehead. He does not have as much power as people think.
I am happy to help as well coombz I wouldn't want you walking around uninformed.
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a 2 party system where both parties are identical except when it comes to media-friendly talking points like abortion/immigration/gun control :)
no matter who is elected the real people in power will continue doing their thing, the Commander in chief is just a figurehead for the proles to argue about, and to distract them from the real issues
as South Park eloquently put it, you have the choice between a giant do uche and a turd sandwich ;D
happy to help
that's as much an illusion as the idea that voting affects the control of your country ;)
Honestley it's not going to be guns or bombs that change our government, it's going to be the Internet. Imagine wiki leaks X100. That's going to be the future, eventually the government will be 100% transparent if the like it or not.
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I am going to bed :old:
Coombzy need to goto bed as well and get some sleep. :old:
Gun Laws in America are nonsense and will change nothing.
Democracy is not perfect but its the best we have. :old:
The Internet will change nothing, if it did it would be banned. :old:
I rather listen to people talking gibberish about ALiens and tin foil hats than listen to people talking about the power of Technology.
They have Mobile phones in China and no toilet paper there you go, human nature out in the open.
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The second amendment is there in case the Government forgets about the first :D
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Same as saying the parties are identical except for issues that are obviously important to people. They would not be "talking-points" if no one cared.
they might be important points, but they are just ways to divide people really
nothing ever actually changes
wasn't one of Obama's big things the claim that he was going to get rid of Gitmo? :] did that ever happen? :headscratch:
these talking points are to get people all riled up and slagging off the other side, not actual questions of policy changes that are likely to happen
it's a smokescreen
suns makes a good point about Wikileaks, you only have to look at the effort they have gone to in order to discredit and silence Assange to realise that the one thing no govt wants is any kind of transparency or real public scrutiny
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If the Americans were a sensible people they would have risen up and overthrown the Regan government.
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coombz....many things you say are dead on. :aok
my thoughts are it will not get better, it is only gonna get worse......to think that we can "stop" those in charge is laughable at best, they will call you a terrorist and everyone(well most) will believe them....
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Our government drew a line not to be crossed. You can't win wars that way.
Don't forget when MacArthur crossed the 'line' then the Chinese pushed us back quite far...eventually resulting in a stalemate. There was a valid reason why we didn't what to fight them... Thank the Chinese for N. Korea... there could have been one democratic 'Korea'.
EDIT... nvrmind
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they might be important points, but they are just ways to divide people really
nothing ever actually changes
wasn't one of Obama's big things the claim that he was going to get rid of Gitmo? :] did that ever happen? :headscratch:
these talking points are to get people all riled up and slagging off the other side, not actual questions of policy changes that are likely to happen
it's a smokescreen
suns makes a good point about Wikileaks, you only have to look at the effort they have gone to in order to discredit and silence Assange to realise that the one thing no govt wants is any kind of transparency or real public scrutiny
didnt bush said we ended all major combat operations in Iraq back in 2003?
semp
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Annnd we've just gone off into the deep end.
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I for one am grateful to the American military for forging the wonderful world we have today where terrorists have killed civilians in the US and the UK in retaliation for America's brilliant foreign policy in the Middle East
Iran will be next as Uncle Sam continues the trend of bending over for Israel :angel:
What a load of absolute nonsense. You do realize that you have precious, young New Zealand soldiers dying in Afghanistan so that you can even spout that gibberish?
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If the Americans were a sensible people they would have risen up and overthrown the Regan government.
:lol I'm guessing your ideal government is led by someone like Gordon Brown?
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What a load of absolute nonsense. You do realize that you have precious, young New Zealand soldiers dying in Afghanistan so that you can even spout that gibberish?
so are you implying that if there was no war in Afghanistan I wouldn't have free speech on the internet? or what?
try to make some sense please
the fact that soldiers from the UK and NZ are dying for America's pointless and self-defeating war on terror is more reason to be annoyed with those countries foreign policy, not less
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so are you implying that if there was no war in Afghanistan I wouldn't have free speech on the internet? or what?
try to make some sense please
the fact that soldiers from the UK and NZ are dying for America's pointless and self-defeating war on terror is more reason to be annoyed with those countries foreign policy, not less
I'm sorry, I'd rather not waste my time explaining how wrong you are. It would be like talking to a brick wall. What foreign policy are you suggesting, then? Isolationism?
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Don't forget when MacArthur crossed the 'line' then the Chinese pushed us back quite far...eventually resulting in a stalemate. There was a valid reason why we didn't what to fight them... Thank the Chinese for N. Korea... there could have been one democratic 'Korea'.
EDIT... nvrmind
The Chinese would have been blown to all hell after we (America) recovered from their initial attack, if it wasn't for the government's rejection of MacArthur's total war strategy against them, as well as peace negotiations that severely hampered our willingness to go on the offensive for fear of "pissing off" the Chinese.
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I'm sorry, I'd rather not waste my time explaining how wrong you are. It would be like talking to a brick wall. What foreign policy are you suggesting, then? Isolationism?
I wasn't suggesting any foreign policy, i was asking you to explain your nonsensical post
I guess that isn't forthcoming though eh?
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I wasn't suggesting any foreign policy, i was asking you to explain your nonsensical post
I guess that isn't forthcoming though eh?
How is my post nonsensical? I am suggesting that terrorists would be striking at countries like NZ, UK, and America with greater occurrence if it wasn't for the troops that go/went into Afghanistan and disrupt Al-Qaida's safe haven and base of operation.
From your posts, I can tell your foreign policy would be appeasement, isolationism, and trying to get along with even the most ruthless regimes on the planet for fear of potentially making them mad and creating terrorists.
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Nice strawman you've created there :)
Those pesky terrorists would attack us no matter what, they are just so jealous of our freedom :D
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Nice strawman you've created there :)
Those pesky terrorists would attack us no matter what, they are just so jealous of our freedom :D
Coombzy, radical Islam preaches the destruction of Western society. We can debate US involvement in the Middle East till we're blue in the face, but the fact remains that even if we pulled all of our troops out of there, they would still be trying to kill as many innocent civilians as possible.
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someone watches the "news" a bit to much :rofl :rofl :rofl
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someone watches the "news" a bit to much :rofl :rofl :rofl
lol yeah i wish i hadn't edited my post now
I had already anticipated and mocked the predictable 'their religion says to kill all non-believers!' response, to go alongside the 'they hate us for our freedoms' bit, but then I took it out to try and be less antagonistic :)
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lol yeah i wish i hadn't edited my post now
I had already anticipated and mocked the predictable 'their religion says to kill all non-believers!' response, to go alongside the 'they hate us for our freedoms' bit, but then I took it out to try and be less antagonistic :)
:lol
not everyone in America is so........ahhhh.........."gullible" ya thats the word........:D
I tattooed a vet who was one of the very first Americans over there, can you guess where he went?
to the oil fields......yup we are definitely fighting "terrorism" :rofl :rofl
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fighting to change brutal and ruthless regimes DaveJ says...(oh and don't forget finding those WMDs threatening all of the free world :) ) not fighting to control the part of the world that produces most of the oil ;]
if it's about stopping horrible dictators and downtrodden people then why don't we ever hear anything on the news about the US getting involved in the nasty little wars in Africa? is it because Africa is poor as f**k?
i guess it just might be
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fighting to change brutal and ruthless regimes DaveJ says...(oh and don't forget finding those WMDs threatening all of the free world :) ) not fighting to control the part of the world that produces most of the oil ;]
if it's about stopping horrible dictators and downtrodden people then why don't we ever hear anything on the news about the US getting involved in the nasty little wars in Africa? is it because Africa is poor as f**k?
i guess it just might be
if you haven't seen it yet, watch the Movie called "Machine gun preacher"......true story, the guy is still there to this day.
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:lol I'm guessing your ideal government is led by someone like Gordon Brown?
I'd prefer one led by Charlie Brown. :)
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Every war that has been fought is based on access to economic resources, wars do not occur for any other reason.
Economics is the basis of our Democratic society.
Oil is essential to maintain our way if life.
America has followed foreign policy to sustain its way of life and its democratic ideas.
Africa as a continent is essential for its natural resourses which are vast, its people are poor because the Industrial nations require it so to exploit it.
The UK would be a third world country if US economic policy dictated, we exploit the economic system the US maintain.
The Americans maintain the society we live in.
Gun laws are nonsense, the Americans have guns because they can, it has nothing to do with defending freedom, they have guns because its cultural :old:
This thread highlights why some people drive a car and some have it driven for them :old:
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Wow, Zack1234 by Domestos, kills all known bullcrap, dead.
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I know :ROFL
I think should consult the Clangers about said gibberish :old:
shameful really British people who bite the hand that feeds it. :old:
I am not rich enough and privilege enough to get angry. :old:
Coombzy is angry and ran off the New Zealand, I wish I could run away :old:
New Zealand was stolen of the indigenous people by the British. (Coombzy?)
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you can run away too zack, I will share my sheep with you :old:
it is supposedly winter here but mostly it is very warm and the sun shines and I go to the beach :cheers:
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I can't make any decisions anymore :old:
Can you own a gun in New Zealand?
And do they have McDonalds?
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I can't make any decisions anymore :old:
Can you own a gun in New Zealand?
And do they have McDonalds?
Too bad. I wanted you to leave your pies to me in your will.
Yes
Of course.
When do you leave?
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disgruntled worker just executed 2 in NJ supermarket.
retard soldier executes 6 people at their place of worship a week or 2 back.
just what the founding fathers had in mind :aok
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Meanwhile, clubs and knives are still one step above stone hand-axes...
http://www.citizensreportuk.org/reports/murders-fatal-violence-uk.html (http://www.citizensreportuk.org/reports/murders-fatal-violence-uk.html)
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England vs USA
Gun control myths
Thomas Sowell
November 26, 2002
Professor Joyce Lee Malcolm of Bentley College deserves some sort of special prize for taking on the thankless task of talking sense on a subject where nonsense is deeply entrenched and fiercely dogmatic. In her recently published book, "Guns and Violence," Professor Malcolm examines the history of firearms, gun control laws and violent crime in England. What makes this more than an exercise in history is its relevance to current controversies over gun control in America.
Gun control zealots love to make highly selective international comparisons of gun ownership and murder rates. But Joyce Lee Malcolm points out some of the pitfalls in that approach. For example, the murder rate in New York City has been more than five times that of London for two centuries -- and during most of that time neither city had any gun control laws.
In 1911, New York state instituted one of the most severe gun control laws in the United States, while serious gun control laws did not begin in England until nearly a decade later. But New York City still continued to have far higher murder rates than London.
If we are serious about the role of guns and gun control as factors in differing rates of violence between countries, then we need to do what history professor Joyce Lee Malcolm does -- examine the history of guns and violence. In England, as she points out, over the centuries "violent crime continued to decline markedly at the very time that guns were becoming increasingly available."
England's Bill of Rights in 1688 was quite unambiguous that the right of a private individual to be armed was an individual right, independently of any collective right of militias. Guns were as freely available to Englishmen as to Americans, on into the early 20th century.
Nor was gun control in England a response to any firearms murder crisis. Over a period of three years near the end of the 19th century, "there were only 59 fatalities from handguns in a population of nearly 30 million people," according to Professor Malcolm. "Of these, 19 were accidents, 35 were suicides and only three were homicides -- an average of one a year."
The rise of the interventionist state in early 20th century England included efforts to restrict ownership of guns. After the First World War, gun control laws began restricting the possession of firearms. Then, after the Second World War, these restrictions grew more severe, eventually disarming the civilian population of England -- or at least the law-abiding part of it.
It was during this period of severe restrictions on owning firearms that crime rates in general, and the murder rate in particular, began to rise in England. "As the number of legal firearms have dwindled, the numbers of armed crimes have risen," Professor Malcolm points out.
In 1954, there were only a dozen armed robberies in London but, by the 1990s, there were more than a hundred times as many. In England, as in the United States, drastic crackdowns on gun ownership by law-abiding citizens were accompanied by ever greater leniency to criminals. In both countries, this turned out to be a formula for disaster.
While England has not yet reached the American level of murders, it has already surpassed the United States in rates of robbery and burglary. Moreover, in recent years the murder rate in England has been going up under still more severe gun control laws, while the murder rate in the United States has been going down as more and more states have allowed private citizens to carry concealed weapons -- and have begun locking up more criminals.
In both countries, facts have no effect whatever on the dogmas of gun control zealots. The fact that most guns used to murder people in England were not legally purchased has no effect on their faith in gun control laws there, any more than faith in such laws here is affected by the fact that the gun used by the recent Beltway snipers was not purchased legally either.
In England as in America, sensational gun crimes have been seized upon and used politically to promote crackdowns on gun ownership by law-abiding citizens, while doing nothing about criminals. American zealots for the Brady bill say nothing about the fact that the man who shot James Brady and tried to assassinate President Reagan has been out walking the streets on furlough.
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edit: scratch that, like I said earlier its hard to compare, and not very helpful.
I only mentioned those 2 incidents because ... no one else has.
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About 57.
US estimated population - 314,273,210
UK estimated population - 62,641,000
5X the population and 5x the murder rate
Higher population density?
10,518.60/km2 New York
5,206/km2 in London
(4,405.4/km2 in Philly in case you were wondering)
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57 cant be right, you sure?
nice cherry-picking stats btw, lets compare Peckham with Montana :lol
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57 cant be right, you sure?
nice cherry-picking stats btw, lets compare Peckham with Montana :lol
If you can cherry pick stats, so can I. Good for the goose and gander.
I just goes to prove that stats prove nothing except that cherries are tasty.
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I dont see why the Brits n Kiwis be so worked up. We kicked em to the curb twice to keep our right to pop melons in NJ supermarkets. Also I saw on tv that Russia's murder rate is even higher than ours.
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John Galbriath wrote a book about statistics is very good and very very funny :old:
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John Galbriath wrote a book about statistics is very good and very very funny :old:
I will have to check that out.
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
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stats rule.
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They do. :old:
Especially when people are daft and don't know it :old:
I am just on my way to New Zealand, where abouts is it?
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btw inner london and nyc are both around 10,000/sqkm, nyc a little higher.
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They do. :old:
Especially when people are daft and don't know it :old:
I am just on my way to New Zealand, where abouts is it?
I think its somewhere aroun New Ecksland.
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Seems gunlaws dont work well in NZ, for sunch a small country there are an awful lot of mass shootings. http://www.ic-wish.org/WiSH%20Fact%20Sheet%20Mass%20shootings%20in%20Australia%20and%20New%20Zealand.pdf (http://www.ic-wish.org/WiSH%20Fact%20Sheet%20Mass%20shootings%20in%20Australia%20and%20New%20Zealand.pdf)
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Also I belive Coombzy works for the Nephillim trying to divide us so the conqurin' will be easier, its all an inter earth alien conspiracy.
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We need the Snail man to make a pie chart. . . .
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About 57.
US estimate population - 314,273,210
UK estimated population - 62,641,000
5X the population and 5x the murder rate
Higher population density?
10,518.60/km2 New York
5,206/km2 in London
(4,405.4/km2 in Philly in case you were wondering)
May be just me, but I'm pretty sure the bolded statement isn't true in the way that the size of a population doesn't directly affect gun crime rate.
Nathan, the more you spout off about conspiracy theories, the more I get the sinking feeling that you are serious.
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May be just me, but I'm pretty sure the bolded statement isn't true in the way that the size of a population doesn't directly affect gun crime rate.
Nathan, the more you spout off about conspiracy theories, the more I get the sinking feeling that you are serious.
It is just you.
Gun crime rate was not what was being discussed, it was murder rate as a whole.
Thanks for playing, you win you choice of a conspiracy theory Nathan doll or a paranoid Semp watching a cop put his hand on his gun doll. Tickets can be redeemed at the box office. :aok
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It would affect the total number of murders, but not the rate. If there was 1 murder for every 100 people, you would expect to have 2 murders for a group of 200 people, which is a double of the number, but the exact same rate. You wouldn't expect 4 murders, which would be a double in the rate. Anyway, this is splitting hairs so I'll take the conspiracy Nathan doll.
(http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh640/lupoj/83127279.jpg)
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Shooting rabbits with a 12GA.. Guess you didn't eat rabbit stew very often. :)
Shotgunning rabbits with Mod or Imp Cilender chokes out 35 yards or so with light bird shot doesn't tear 'em up...also close = headshots...aim at the top of the ears... :banana:
Fred
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I don't know, that is still like a 24" spread with full choke. Think I would rather stick to a .22. Less chance of needing some dental work after some good stew. :D
Fred
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It is just you.
Gun crime rate was not what was being discussed, it was murder rate as a whole.
Thanks for playing, you win you choice of a conspiracy theory Nathan doll or a paranoid Semp watching a cop put his hand on his gun doll. Tickets can be redeemed at the box office. :aok
you call me paranoid and yet I am not the one telling everybody to lock the doors when a police officers stops you.
semp
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I love the way you change your tune to suit the misguided point you are trying to make at any given time, they are not of the proletariat, as your politicians are not. The vast majority of MP's are from large country piles with a few Knighthoods and letters after their fathers names.
Not one Prime Minister has been of working class, not one US President has been "of the people" including Lincoln who said that. The closest you have come so far is Barrack Obama
The monarchy may be an anathema to you, but it is a symbol of this great country as much as its flag. I have all the admiration for them, especially for the members that put themselves in harms way on the front line, and have done throughout our history. :salute
Look up Harry Truman . Dwight Eisenhower . To name two that came from humble backgrounds . Lincolns background was fairly humble as well don't understand that one bro .
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despite their size and technological superiority to they have been made to look stupid in Vietnam, Iraq and now Afghanistan...all those millions (billions?) spent on the military and they get shown up by people most Americans would consider 3rd world peasants
and for what? If I had a family member dead from fighting any of those completely pointless wars i would be supremely disillusioned
Vietnam and Afghanistan especially they should have learned from the lessons of other countries in the past.
How do you figure ? Show me where the military lost one battle in Vietnam ? The Vietnamese infantryman we fought was probably the finest light infantryman the world has ever seen . The product of centuries of armed conflict . Do you remember the "border clash" with the Chinese in the late 70's ? The Vietnamese stopped them old for a protracted period of time . The PLA finally overwhelmed them and drove on to the river that was their objective . The ROE were far different than those followed by our troops in Vietnam . Still Vietnam will always be the only war were the loser won every battle . The war in Vietnam did point out several weaknesses in our military . A great many of them have been addressed . It didn't point out some that still exist . Example the way we design tanks . Doing incremental improvements . The M60 was basically a continuously improved M26 . We also focus on componets rather than a holistic design . Again you are wrong about the Afghan's and their fighting ability .
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fighting to change brutal and ruthless regimes DaveJ says...(oh and don't forget finding those WMDs threatening all of the free world :) ) not fighting to control the part of the world that produces most of the oil ;]
if it's about stopping horrible dictators and downtrodden people then why don't we ever hear anything on the news about the US getting involved in the nasty little wars in Africa? is it because Africa is poor as f**k?
i guess it just might be
The WMD were there at one point . Not nukes but chemical and biological weapons by the ton . I saw them myself . Saddam played games with the UN commissions sent to disarm him in accordance with the cease fire he signed . I would point you to videos of UN convoys showing up at one gate and Iraqi convoys leaving at another . What is the point . When was the last African attack on NYC ? Iraq was about stopping horrible dictators that threaten US interests . We are not the world police . Africa gets attacked when Africans threaten our interests . The pirates in East Africa will tell you .
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Wow, Zack1234 by Domestos, kills all known bullcrap, dead.
Why is it cultural ? We are able have guns because of the second amendment of the constitution . What was the true intent of the founders for it being in the Bill of Rights ? I once again refer everyone to legal opinions rendered by contemporaries of the Founders . To state that we have guns just because we can . Implies there was no reason for the second amendment . That is something I am surprised at coming from you two .
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Its cultural you like having guns so you have them, this bill of rights to own a gun is nonsense.
There is no bills of rights to own big fat cars with 4x4 drive but you still have them because its exspected. (4X4 are for off road fact) (Guns are for shooting things and crimminals) not to uphold your rights its childish and immature to say that.
Just say I like guns
Like I have said on numerous occassions if I was a Yank I would lots of guns becaue I could, and a bit fat car.
You are not going to be "Minute Men" to defend yourselves from "THEM" who ever you are.
Can I come out of my bunker yet and have those stars gone yet? is the moon still there?
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When was the last African attack on NYC ?
when was the last Iraqi attack on NYC then?
i live in New Zealand, I can recognise sheep when I see them...keep bleating :aok
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There is no bills of rights to own big fat cars with 4x4 drive but you still have them because its exspected. (4X4 are for off road fact)
i believe it's called the culture of conspicuous consumption :D
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JuHX8F1YxVo/T2PIKEpaduI/AAAAAAAAAJ4/mtcow9G7wr0/s1600/USA-Fat-Uncle-Sam.jpg)
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Why is it cultural ? We are able have guns because of the second amendment of the constitution . What was the true intent of the founders for it being in the Bill of Rights ? I once again refer everyone to legal opinions rendered by contemporaries of the Founders . To state that we have guns just because we can . Implies there was no reason for the second amendment . That is something I am surprised at coming from you two .
I was more commenting on Zack's ability to cut through a lot of waffle with a cojple of bullet points more than your constitition or bill of rights buddy.
Firearms bah, i'm really undecided. On the one hand they interest me greatly, also from the design perspective, on the other they can hurt people and I often find the context morally objectionable.
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Its cultural you like having guns so you have them, this bill of rights to own a gun is nonsense.
There is no bills of rights to own big fat cars with 4x4 drive but you still have them because its exspected. (4X4 are for off road fact) (Guns are for shooting things and crimminals) not to uphold your rights its childish and immature to say that.
Just say I like guns
Like I have said on numerous occassions if I was a Yank I would lots of guns becaue I could, and a bit fat car.
You are not going to be "Minute Men" to defend yourselves from "THEM" who ever you are.
Can I come out of my bunker yet and have those stars gone yet? is the moon still there?
Zack, you seem to struggle with concepts...
The U.S. Constitution does not bestow rights on it's citizens. It defines what natural and inalienable rights shall be protected by the Government.
The right to self-defense is a natural right and therefore, an inalienable right. The U.S. Supreme Court has upheld this as an individual's right.
The writers of the Constitution also recognized that the defense of the community and state could not be the sole domain of a standing army. The Army was very small. Thus, cities, towns and even small villages formed militias, consisting of local able-bodied men. Those men would supply their own weapons and a basic load of ammunition. Heavy weapons and additional ammunition, as well as all required supplies, would be furnished by the government (at what ever level the militia represented). The militia members would muster with their rifles, muskets, shotguns and side arms.
The need for militias largely disappeared (more so in the eastern USA) by the early 1900s, being replaced by police and sheriff departments at the local and state level, and the state National Guard. Nonetheless, every single day, armed citizens intervene in crime, and often assist the police when needed. In the years since the Constitution was ratified, firearm technology has evolved from single shot muzzle loaders, to breach loaders, to repeating rifles (bolt and lever actions) and finally semi-auto and full auto weapons. A modern militia would be armed with the latest technology and remain within the intent of the Constitution. Congress overstepped their authority and effectively banned automatic weapons. The current political climate does not support a repeal at this time, but there are suits being contemplated that may have the effect of overturning that ban (based upon recent court decisions). Still, it is very reasonable that modern semi-auto rifles meet the intent of the founders. In the event of a national, state or local emergency, there are plenty of men who could and would answer a call to assist the government. Unlike 200 years ago, there is no organized and sanctioned training. A mistake, in my opinion. I would like to see the government provide firearms training to anyone wanting it for free. The government cannot make that a requirement for ownership, but it could offer less regulation to those who complete the training and maintain qualification with semi-annual training and testing. There is much we can do to reduce accidents that we should do, although more people die in pools than are killed by accidental discharges of firearms.
Getting guns out of the hands of criminals is another, far more challenging problem that will never be truly resolved. Gun laws only work when people obey them, and the criminal, by definition, ignores laws.
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natural and inalienable rights
sorry to nitpick but there is no such thing, all "rights" are defined by man. they may be natural in the trivial sense that humans are part of nature, but nature/reality/whatever you want to call it has no concept of ethics.
if rights came from somewhere other than human consensus, there would be no argument over them, it would be pointless.
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From reading this thread "Them" is the Government :old:
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sorry to nitpick but there is no such thing, all "rights" are defined by man. they may be natural in the trivial sense that humans are part of nature, but nature/reality/whatever you want to call it has no concept of ethics.
if rights came from somewhere other than human consensus, there would be no argument over them, it would be pointless.
I think I am in a arguing mood today :rofl :rofl
I completely disagree with this...... and very much agree with this....
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness....."
no one can stand up for those rights but YOU and You alone....and only YOU have the power to enforce them....and YES DEATH is worth enforcing those rights.
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that all men are created equal
Commie :old:
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obvious and self-evident to some maybe, but entirely artificial and created by man.
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Commie :old:
:lol
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sorry to nitpick but there is no such thing, all "rights" are defined by man. they may be natural in the trivial sense that humans are part of nature, but nature/reality/whatever you want to call it has no concept of ethics.
if rights came from somewhere other than human consensus, there would be no argument over them, it would be pointless.
It seems that you are confusing natural rights with legal rights.
I suggest a reading of The Rights of Man, by Thomas Paine.
Available free online.
http://www.ushistory.org/paine/rights/c2-041.htm (http://www.ushistory.org/paine/rights/c2-041.htm)
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way ahead of you, its amateurish rhetoric.
edit: ok thats a little unfair, he didnt have the benefit of the last coupla hundred years of political philosophy to lean on, but it is mostly rhetoric. the few places where he attempts to make arguments have some interesting ideas but he would be ripped apart by a modern political philosophy undergraduate. even for his day its rather sloppy work.
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... in the trivial sense that humans are part of nature, but nature/reality/whatever you want to call it has no concept of ethics.
Wow, tempting.
How do you consider humans being part of nature as trivial?
Are we not natural?
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...all "rights" are defined by man.
Yup, I agree.
In the country I live in, we've been fortunate enough to have some founding father's who helped define ours in a way that works very well.
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Commie :old:
:rofl
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Are stupid people equal?
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Are stupid people equal?
Not in terms of nouse I don't s'pose :x
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It seems that you are confusing natural rights with legal rights.
I suggest a reading of The Rights of Man, by Thomas Paine.
Available free online.
http://www.ushistory.org/paine/rights/c2-041.htm (http://www.ushistory.org/paine/rights/c2-041.htm)
I have so much to say to that...wish rule 14 did not exist........ I got through a few paragraphs and came upon this
".....When extraordinary power and extraordinary pay are allotted to any individual in a government, he becomes the center, round which every kind of corruption generates and forms. Give to any man a million a year, and add thereto the power of creating and disposing of places, at the expense of a country, and the liberties of that country are no longer secure. What is called the splendour of a throne is no other than the corruption of the state. It is made up of a band of parasites, living in luxurious indolence, out of the public taxes
When once such a vicious system is established it becomes the guard and protection of all inferior abuses. The man who is in the receipt of a million a year is the last person to promote a spirit of reform, lest, in the event, it should reach to himself. It is always his interest to defend inferior abuses, as so many outworks to protect the citadel; and on this species of political fortification, all the parts have such a common dependence that it is never to be expected they will attack each othe"
one of the most truth full statements I have ever read is colored in red.......
I was having a conversation with my 13 year old son, trying to explain, why "right/good" is right and "wrong/bad" is wrong.....
1-we need laws to govern us, otherwise people would do whatever they wanted to whoever they wanted....and no one except the "strong" would be content.
2-we can not rule ourselves, for we allow our animal/natural instinct to take over...which knows no right or wrong, our world is a perfect example of what happens when we try to rule our selves.....
we are NOT an "accident" we didn't "just happen" if you believe those two things as fact, you are blind....
.................
I Respect HTC and company....I can go no further with this, due to that respect.
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So stupid people have rights?
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So stupid people have rights?
well I have been told I have a few. So I say they must. Just not as many as smart rich folk
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I knew someone in Liverpool who was a complete idiot, he had lots of guns was fat and had a moustache.
I was not fit to have a spoon :old:
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I knew someone in Liverpool who was a complete idiot, he had lots of guns was fat and had a moustache.
I was not fit to have a spoon :old:
Aah, now see fatness is not a instant qualification for civil rights. But ability ti purchase enough pies to get to lardy proportions may have bearing on how many rights you are entitled to :old:
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I would like to see the government provide firearms training to anyone wanting it for free.
they do provide free training, join the army, marines, national guard, navy, coast guard. heck they even pay you for the training plus you get some money for college too.
semp
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So stupid people have rights?
Yes Zack, you have rights...... :t
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they do provide free training, join the army, marines, national guard, navy, coast guard. heck they even pay you for the training plus you get some money for college too.
semp
I know you say that tongue in cheek, but to avoid the confusion of others, the average housewife, and a 60 year-old male first time gun owner won't qualify for that training.
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Are stupid people equal?
All are born equal, even the stupid. There's no promise of equal outcomes.
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I know you say that tongue in cheek, but to avoid the confusion of others, the average housewife, and a 60 year-old male first time gun owner won't qualify for that training.
I thought you were against less government and not more. but to be honest do you really want a new department of gun training with 1 million employees to provide free gun training to everybody? even to criminals? wouldnt it be cheaper to just go to an nra approved class course? and if you say it's because they cost money, well somebody it's gonna pay for the trainers anyway.
when I learned to drive, I didnt wait for a free government class to teach me how. if you want to own a gun then it's your responsibility to learn to use it.
semp
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I don't know, that is still like a 24" spread with full choke. Think I would rather stick to a .22. Less chance of needing some dental work after some good stew. :D
Fred
OK, you're out bird hunting, you get a nice couple of your favorite birds, heading back to the truck & a couple rabbits jump? Bang! Oooo Rabbit & Pheasant Yummers... :old:
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Its cultural you like having guns so you have them, this bill of rights to own a gun is nonsense.
There is no bills of rights to own big fat cars with 4x4 drive but you still have them because its exspected. (4X4 are for off road fact) (Guns are for shooting things and crimminals) not to uphold your rights its childish and immature to say that.
Just say I like guns
Like I have said on numerous occassions if I was a Yank I would lots of guns becaue I could, and a bit fat car.
You are not going to be "Minute Men" to defend yourselves from "THEM" who ever you are.
Can I come out of my bunker yet and have those stars gone yet? is the moon still there?
Childish? You're an idiot. You have an opinion which is based on 2nd hand information. We know what we believe because of our country's history. You Know what you Know about your country. We Know what we know about ours. If you think that government are respectful of their populace because they are just nice people...? Look at history. Gov'ts which are not forced to respect the rights of their populace, always abuse their rights. Japan's WWII generals knew better than to attack our mainland because every home had a gun... ours doen't push it to hard because we will remove them from power if they try!!! :salute :old: Live Free or Die! :ahand
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I was at a lock-in at the local when I was 15, one of the poachers came in (looked like he'd had a good night) and we got chatting. he used to take pheasant from the duke of marlboroughs estate so we were asking him what his favorite method was (I guessed air rifle - nice and quiet). his answer - "I use a putter - pheasant are dozy ****s, specially at night" :lol
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Childish? You're an idiot. You have an opinion which is based on 2nd hand information. We know what we believe because of our country's history. You Know what you Know about your country. We Know what we know about ours. If you think that government are respectful of their populace because they are just nice people...? Look at history. Gov'ts which are not forced to respect the rights of their populace, always abuse their rights. Japan's WWII generals knew better than to attack our mainland because every home had a gun... ours doen't push it to hard because we will remove them from power if they try!!! :salute :old: Live Free or Die! :ahand
:rofl :rofl
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Childish? You're an idiot. You have an opinion which is based on 2nd hand information. We know what we believe because of our country's history. You Know what you Know about your country. We Know what we know about ours. If you think that government are respectful of their populace because they are just nice people...? Look at history. Gov'ts which are not forced to respect the rights of their populace, always abuse their rights. Japan's WWII generals knew better than to attack our mainland because every home had a gun... ours doen't push it to hard because we will remove them from power if they try!!! :salute :old: Live Free or Die! :ahand
You honestly believe that the same nation that were prepared to arm women and children with sharpened bamboo in order to fight off an allied invasion of their homeland, and fight a hopeless cause until their positions were burned out with flamethrowers, and commit mass suicides with grenades, guns, knives, swords, really were frightened off by an armed citizenry? Do you really believe that Japan had the military or political will to be able to invade the U.S at all??? Due respect Sir. Remove your head from your posterior
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You honestly believe that the same nation that were prepared to arm women and children with sharpened bamboo in order to fight off an allied invasion of their homeland, and fight a hopeless cause until their positions were burned out with flamethrowers, and commit mass suicides with grenades, guns, knives, swords, really were frightened off by an armed citizenry? Do you really believe that Japan had the military or political will to be able to invade the U.S at all??? Due respect Sir. Remove your head from your posterior
Thank you. :aok
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You honestly believe that the same nation that were prepared to arm women and children with sharpened bamboo in order to fight off an allied invasion of their homeland, and fight a hopeless cause until their positions were burned out with flamethrowers, and commit mass suicides with grenades, guns, knives, swords, really were frightened off by an armed citizenry? Do you really believe that Japan had the military or political will to be able to invade the U.S at all??? Due respect Sir. Remove your head from your posterior
Thanks for clearing that up. YES! but early in the war before they got so desperate. Also it was the generals who were quoted as not wanting to attack the mainland...& really the smart ones in charge is all that really matters. :D as for the position of my head I was looking in there to pull yours out! :ahand
Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto - “You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass.”
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Thanks for clearing that up. YES! but early in the war before they got so desperate. Also it was the generals who were quoted as not wanting to attack the mainland...& really the smart ones in charge is all that really matters. :D as for the position of my head I was looking in there to pull yours out! :ahand
Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto - “You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass.”
I believe Isoroku Yamamoto was commentint on the US will to fight rather than the proliferation of firearms through the country, bearing in mind, that at the time, Russia, Britain, Scandinavia, China, and pretty much every country that had discovered fire were awash with privately owned firearms.
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I'm pretty sure I mentioned this topic beforehand......
"They would be afraid blah blah" - It's got nothing to do with them being afraid. It's got to do with being able to have enough man power and supplies. They had their hands full just |)1[king around in SEA.
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Thanks for clearing that up. YES! but early in the war before they got so desperate. Also it was the generals who were quoted as not wanting to attack the mainland...& really the smart ones in charge is all that really matters. :D as for the position of my head I was looking in there to pull yours out! :ahand
Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto - “You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass.”
that quote is most likely bogus. please post some reference to it as I cant seem to find anything.
http://www.factcheck.org/2009/05/misquoting-yamamoto/
semp
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I thought you were against less government and not more. but to be honest do you really want a new department of gun training with 1 million employees to provide free gun training to everybody? even to criminals? wouldnt it be cheaper to just go to an nra approved class course? and if you say it's because they cost money, well somebody it's gonna pay for the trainers anyway.
when I learned to drive, I didnt wait for a free government class to teach me how. if you want to own a gun then it's your responsibility to learn to use it.
semp
Semp, I must say that you're typical arguments are invariably idiotic. I had a beer with dinner tonight, and I would not be surprised if that beer killed more functioning brain cells than you woke up with this morning....
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Semp, I must say that you're typical arguments are invariably idiotic. I had a beer with dinner tonight, and I would not be surprised if that beer killed more functioning brain cells than you woke up with this morning....
well see the way i see it, the typical guy when he's losing an argument will resort to personal insults :neener:. so I guess you are really going for the government having another million employees to teach people how to properly shoot. is that really a good idea?
so please enlighten me on how the government can or should teach people to handle firearms without spending what little money there's left of my social security. I figure if you gonna insult me at least let me know the details of your idea, who knows maybe one of my dead brain cells can come back to life. unless of course your idea is too complex for this guy to understand, hey but who knows perhaps I can ask fugitive to draw some cartoons to make it easier on me :salute.
semp
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Its cultural you like having guns so you have them, this bill of rights to own a gun is nonsense.
There is no bills of rights to own big fat cars with 4x4 drive but you still have them because its exspected. (4X4 are for off road fact) (Guns are for shooting things and crimminals) not to uphold your rights its childish and immature to say that.
Just say I like guns
Like I have said on numerous occassions if I was a Yank I would lots of guns becaue I could, and a bit fat car.
You are not going to be "Minute Men" to defend yourselves from "THEM" who ever you are.
Can I come out of my bunker yet and have those stars gone yet? is the moon still there?
You obviously didn't read the thread . My fault probably my posts tend to be bloated . Here is a quote from my first post
" I have only recently bought two personal weapons . The last time I owned a weapon was 30+ years before . I used them for hunting . Something I lost my taste for a long time ago . To me they were dirty dangerous tools I no longer had a need for . What changed my mind was a gang that is very strong around here started in Oregon prisons . The European Kindred . They do love a good home invasion robbery . They prefer to hit meth dealers but do not limit themselves . The local police being unable to solve any of them . Here is a link to the latest ."
I don't like guns . Shida can confirm this . When he was here a few years ago . I did not own one . Was unsure even where to borrow one . The well regulated militia of that day was , every able bodied man of service age . They were also seen as a counter balance to a standing army . I am sorry Zach you could not be more wrong if you tried . Concerning why I own guns . The two I own were selected for knock down power at close range with limited penetration . I am not worried about any vague "THEM" . It is a very specific "THEM" . I won't go into how I have run afoul of these people , or why they would look at my home a nice little plum to be plucked . Local law enforcement is aware of 6 of the roughly 40 home invasions these guys have done in less than a year around here . In the 6 cases they are working . Total number of suspects is 0 . The only time I will worry about my government is if they try to completely strip me of any of the rights mentioned in the first 10 amendments . If that happens you are once again wrong . A minuteman is exactly what I will be . In the truest historic sense of the word .
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Childish? You're an idiot. You have an opinion which is based on 2nd hand information. We know what we believe because of our country's history. You Know what you Know about your country. We Know what we know about ours. If you think that government are respectful of their populace because they are just nice people...? Look at history. Gov'ts which are not forced to respect the rights of their populace, always abuse their rights. Japan's WWII generals knew better than to attack our mainland because every home had a gun... ours doen't push it to hard because we will remove them from power if they try!!! :salute :old: Live Free or Die! :ahand
Japan did not Attack the US mainland because people had personal firearms? :old:
:)
Minute man against crimminal?
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way ahead of you, its amateurish rhetoric.
edit: ok thats a little unfair, he didnt have the benefit of the last coupla hundred years of political philosophy to lean on, but it is mostly rhetoric. the few places where he attempts to make arguments have some interesting ideas but he would be ripped apart by a modern political philosophy undergraduate. even for his day its rather sloppy work.
Wow RT for a man whose intellect I respect this surprises me . Blackstone‘s treatise on 1689 English Declaration of Right . "the natural right of resistance" and self-preservation,‖ which was effectuated
by "the right of having and using arms for self-preservation and defence." Natural Law as a legal term is based on 12th century canon law
"Natural law is common to all nations because it exists everywhere through
natural instinct, not because of any enactment. It includes the union of
men and women, the succession and rearing of children, the identical
liberty of all in the acquisition of those things, which I omit, which are
taken from the earth or at sea, the return of a thing deposited or of money
entrusted, and the repelling of violence by force. This, and anything
similar, is never regarded as unjust but is held to be natural and
equitable" While not termed natural law . This right was recognized by the Romans as well . I can think of nothing more "Natural" then the right to self defense . Ever see a cornered bear or mountain lion ? The right to self defense they display comes from nature and nature alone .<over simplification I know it is not intended for you> It is universally recognized . Even some of the less thoughtful people participating in this thread would expect nothing less . Every living thing tries to protect itself . Living organisms that can . Universally use violence to do so . Is that not nature at work ?
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when was the last Iraqi attack on NYC then?
i live in New Zealand, I can recognise sheep when I see them...keep bleating :aok
Really is that the best you have ? Are you so naive as to think the majority of the people we fought in Iraq were Iraqi . You use the term strawman . What was the authority used to go into Iraq ? Do you have even a clue ? Think maybe it was authority derived from the UN ? Like perhaps the UN resolutions outlining Saddam's responsibilities for the cease fire to be honored ? Did not those same resolutions give the authority to use military force if he did not ? Finally what was the position of the nations that were against going back into Iraq ? Was it not give the sanctions time ,they are working ? To preempt your next argument . Would there have still been sanctions in place if he complied ? What was the main concern of the UN ? What were the reasons for the sanctions ? Call me a sheep ? Where do you live in NZ ? Ever been off the concrete and asphalt ? I bet the only way you recognize sheep is when it is labeled and packaged in the supermarket . You sonny if you ever had an original thought in your head it died of loneliness . Before you go off the deep end remember who opened the door to insults . Oh btw can you answer any of those or are you going to spout some more drivel ?
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Japan did not attack the US mainland because people had personal firearms? :) (Shameful)
Can I come out my bunker yet?
There is program coming out on soon about the Americans and doomsday. :old:
Survivalists I think they are called :old:
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Japan did not Attack the US mainland because people had personal firearms? :old:
:)
Minute man against crimminal?
I know the Japanese didn't attack because of armed citizens in the US . They did not have the means . I have to ask you Zach do you think that there is nothing to fear from democratically elected governments ? Is there nothing ever done by democratically elected governments you would not resist ?
Indeed my friend I obtained them to be the 15 second man . 20 seconds is the amount of time I figure it will take them to get into my home . That is if they know what I have done to both doors . The windows are to high to be a point of entry for them <lazy and dumb> . I have my plan that calls for me to make it to my first position with a mossburg 12 ga. loaded with .000 buckshot in 15 <thanks to who ever it was that recommended it> . If necessary I will then move to the small hall in front of the bedrooms were I will use an Ithaca M1911A1 . Sounds overly dramatic I know . I won't even go into what I have done to implement exercises . Let's just say I have a friend that will wake me in a dramatic and loud fashion . I also have regained my proficiency with the 1911 . To become proficient with the shotgun , I shoot clay pigeons 2-3 times a week and have practiced firing at silhouettes in the darkest conditions I can arrange . I found when firing in the dark , with a long arm . I tend to shoot high . Still not sure exactly what to do about that . WW you got any suggestions ?
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bears arent exercising their right to defend themselves, they are just defending themselves.
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bears arent exercising their right to defend themselves, they are just defending themselves.
Circular argument . As am I . Too late you are quoted .
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nope
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nope
Yep
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lets say for a minute that there is such a thing as natural rights, and self-defence is one of them. a convicted murderer is sentenced to be beheaded with an axe. presumably we should unshackle him and give him an axe so he can defend himself against the executioner?
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lets say for a minute that there is such a thing as natural rights, and self-defence is one of them. a convicted murderer is sentenced to be beheaded with an axe. presumably we should unshackle him and give him an axe so he can defend himself against the executioner?
Natural rights are a legally recognized concept for centuries . Like all rights none are absolute . The convicted murderer has surrendered his rights . When he he took his victims right to life . I have the right to freedom of speech it does not mean I can say anything I want without consequence . I can't tell the police I am the victim of a crime falsely .
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Someone in this thread stated that Japan did not attack the US mainland because people had personal firearms :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Owing a gun is not going to stop your government screwing you over, it been screwing you over for the past forty years by putting the working classes out of work while investing in overseas economies.
IE Russia,China,India,Japan etc have all gained by US government policy at the expense of its own people.
You owning a gun has not stopped your Coal mine's, Steel works and "YOUR" people being screwed over by successive governments.
"Conspiracy theories" - "The Government is out to gets us" or "UFOs" take your pick. (Its a smoke screen to hide you from the truth, which is ....... your not that important in the scheme of things)
You will be saying that the Amercan civil war was fought to free the slaves next and nothing to do with the emergence of "Wage Labour in the North states" (they paid people to work instead of owning them).
"get my gun boy!" :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
The fact that the police are ineffective at dealing with crime is Government policy it keeps your mind of what is really happening. :old: (you can put a man on the moon but can't deal with a crimminal) :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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there ya go: rights are demonstrably not absolute, universal and inviolable. they change depending on what a particular society at a particular time has decided they should be. there is nothing natural about them, they are artificial and created by man, not handed to us prepackaged by nature/god/reality/whatever.
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Don't listen to RT he is talking gibberish, its a technique used by the middleclasses to appear to be supierior to the working classes - the term is called "Elaborated Speech"
The lower orders use "Restricted speech"
Everyone in 1920's Germany was armed :old:
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I use both - right tool for the right job eh? ;)
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Are stupid people equal?
It says created equal.... what you choose to do with it from there is your business.
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well see the way i see it, the typical guy when he's losing an argument will resort to personal insults :neener:. so I guess you are really going for the government having another million employees to teach people how to properly shoot. is that really a good idea?
so please enlighten me on how the government can or should teach people to handle firearms without spending what little money there's left of my social security. I figure if you gonna insult me at least let me know the details of your idea, who knows maybe one of my dead brain cells can come back to life. unless of course your idea is too complex for this guy to understand, hey but who knows perhaps I can ask fugitive to draw some cartoons to make it easier on me :salute.
semp
Semp, losing an argument with you would be slightly less likely than losing an argument with a tree...
Many states, counties and municipalities already offer a firearms safety course for free. Many offer online courses. Some states require passing an approved safety course to obtain a concealed carry permit. A Federal program could easily utilize the existing resources of the CMP and affiliated clubs. The issue is that there is no training standardization, which usually reduces overall cost. The initial cost and annual cost of such a program would be a minuscule fraction of the money we hand to our trustworthy friends, the Pakistani government.
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I'm pretty sure I mentioned this topic beforehand......
"They would be afraid blah blah" - It's got nothing to do with them being afraid. It's got to do with being able to have enough man power and supplies. They had their hands full just |)1[king around in SEA.
Sometimes we believe what gives us comfort & supports our hypothesis regardless of "Facts" supported by others... :D :old:
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Sometimes we believe what gives us comfort & supports our hypothesis regardless of "Facts" supported by others... :D :old:
Wow!
I think you may have just summed up gun control laws as a whole!
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Wow!
I think you may have just summed up gun control laws as a whole!
:)
in a nut shell.
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Semp, losing an argument with you would be slightly less likely than losing an argument with a tree...
Many states, counties and municipalities already offer a firearms safety course for free. Many offer online courses. Some states require passing an approved safety course to obtain a concealed carry permit. A Federal program could easily utilize the existing resources of the CMP and affiliated clubs. The issue is that there is no training standardization, which usually reduces overall cost. The initial cost and annual cost of such a program would be a minuscule fraction of the money we hand to our trustworthy friends, the Pakistani government.
there you go again with the personal insults. your idea will need the creation of a new bureaucracy and we already have too much of that. the initial cost is not small potatoes, there would be hundreds of thousands of new employees handling all the paperwork. unless of course you can dream that a couple of employees sitting on a desk somewhere can handle all the paperwork for the millions of people that would apply to participate on the free gun training class. then of course somebody has to pay the instructors as they arent going to work for free.
if you want to own a gun then you need to be responsible for it and that includes getting your own safety training. there's a lot of good programs out there and they arent that expensive until you include the government then all of a sudden the training class cost will increase considerably.
semp
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Wow!
I think you may have just summed up gun control laws as a whole!
:rofl :D :neener:
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there you go again with the personal insults. your idea will need the creation of a new bureaucracy and we already have too much of that. the initial cost is not small potatoes, there would be hundreds of thousands of new employees handling all the paperwork. unless of course you can dream that a couple of employees sitting on a desk somewhere can handle all the paperwork for the millions of people that would apply to participate on the free gun training class. then of course somebody has to pay the instructors as they arent going to work for free.
if you want to own a gun then you need to be responsible for it and that includes getting your own safety training. there's a lot of good programs out there and they arent that expensive until you include the government then all of a sudden the training class cost will increase considerably.
semp
Listen, if the truth is painful, say "ouch".
Above is the typical Semp logic at work... "Hundreds of thousands of new employees"...blah, blah, blah.....
Seriously Semp, you generate more BS than Pamplona in July.....
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there ya go: rights are demonstrably not absolute, universal and inviolable. they change depending on what a particular society at a particular time has decided they should be. there is nothing natural about them, they are artificial and created by man, not handed to us prepackaged by nature/god/reality/whatever.
rights are absolute if they are true. ability is not absolute. the right to defend oneself is absolute. the ability is not.
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Don't listen to RT he is talking gibberish, its a technique used by the middleclasses to appear to be supierior to the working classes - the term is called "Elaborated Speech"
The lower orders use "Restricted speech"
Everyone in 1920's Germany was armed :old:
Is that like Cockney?
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Listen, if the truth is painful, say "ouch".
Above is the typical Semp logic at work... "Hundreds of thousands of new employees"...blah, blah, blah.....
Seriously Semp, you generate more BS than Pamplona in July.....
and you seem to be generating a lot of hot air and no rebuttal to semp's comments
:aok
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Is that like Cockney?
Yes
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Yes
But your northern! :old:
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and you seem to be generating a lot of hot air and no rebuttal to semp's comments
:aok
Semp is all heat and no light... If he had a rational thought in a discussion, it may be worth discussion. However, he invariably resorts to low order trolling.
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Listen, if the truth is painful, say "ouch".
Above is the typical Semp logic at work... "Hundreds of thousands of new employees"...blah, blah, blah.....
Seriously Semp, you generate more BS than Pamplona in July.....
well just give a brief description of how a government program to give free training to all new gun owners will work. you think that is gonna require only a couple of employees and according to you will cost very little? you are dreaming homeboy either that or the beer you drank was the size of a barrel.
and let me remind you, that you are proposing a new government program to train gun owners for free that according to you will cost very little if nothing. now that is bs anywhere on the world not just in spain.
semp
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well just give a brief description of how a government program to give free training to all new gun owners will work. you think that is gonna require only a couple of employees and according to you will cost very little? you are dreaming homeboy either that or the beer you drank was the size of a barrel.
and let me remind you, that you are proposing a new government program to train gun owners for free that according to you will cost very little if nothing. now that is bs anywhere on the world not just in spain.
semp
Semp, how do you manage with a 40 watt filament in a 100 watt world? There already is a government program for firearms training, the CMP (Civilian Marksmanship Program). Currently, you have to join an affiliated gun club. If the program was opened to all who wanted safety training, the structure is already in place. Currently, several local CMP affiliated clubs in my area conduct firearms safety training for the general public for a small fee (covers the cost of printed materials). It's only a matter of standardizing the curriculum and having the materials printed by the Government Printing Office. The training is performed by volunteers.... Thus, cost is minimal, possibly less than your lobotomy was....
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there ya go: rights are demonstrably not absolute, universal and inviolable. they change depending on what a particular society at a particular time has decided they should be. there is nothing natural about them, they are artificial and created by man, not handed to us prepackaged by nature/god/reality/whatever.
Yet again you are trying to make them collective . They are individual rights . The individual can lose his rights by his actions . No one ever said that it was contrary to the Bill of Rights to take away those rights because of individual misconduct . Sorry RT the legal opinion of brilliant legal minds differ with you . I do to on this . Let me clarify your position though so I am not making a mistake . Above quoted statement <sounds to me but i could be wrong> is that society determines all rights , collectively . Those rights are collective not individual . The collective or society can take those rights away . That there is no individual rights at all ? Love the discussion bro ! Coombzy take note . Intelligent debate without rancor or personal insults .
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Don't listen to RT he is talking gibberish, its a technique used by the middleclasses to appear to be supierior to the working classes - the term is called "Elaborated Speech"
The lower orders use "Restricted speech"
Everyone in 1920's Germany was armed :old:
German Weapons Law (Waffengesetz) of March 18, 1938 excluded Jews from owning guns,ammo being in the business of manufacture etc etc etc .It restructured a law which had been enacted ten years earlier by a Left-Center government hostile to the National Socialists ,the government headed by Wilhelm Marx and consisting of a coalition of Socialists . Got some interesting dates for China , Uganda , Cambodia etc etc . Thank you Zach . I been waiting to spring this one . The democratically elected National Socialists . Your are right in 1920's they were . In the 1930's things were changing . The 1938 law took away a Jews right to own guns . Stripping them of INDIVIDUAL rights , not collective since it left other Germans rights fairly unhampered . I admit for the the larger part of Germans the laws were far from draconian .
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Semp, how do you manage with a 40 watt filament in a 100 watt world? There already is a government program for firearms training, the CMP (Civilian Marksmanship Program). Currently, you have to join an affiliated gun club. If the program was opened to all who wanted safety training, the structure is already in place. Currently, several local CMP affiliated clubs in my area conduct firearms safety training for the general public for a small fee (covers the cost of printed materials). It's only a matter of standardizing the curriculum and having the materials printed by the Government Printing Office. The training is performed by volunteers.... Thus, cost is minimal, possibly less than your lobotomy was....
then what exactly is wrong with joining the club? it is available to all us citizens who are able to legally own a gun. and the cost is minimum. but when you add the government to pay for everybody then you must have a bureaucracy to administer the payments for all those who want the training. which in turn will increase the cost as everybody knows once the government is willing to pay then the CMP will have to compete with for profit training programs. it has happened before, look at all those for profit schools being financed by government grants for students who end up with no education.
like i said the cost is minimum right now to join a club. but if the government is going to pay for it then imagine how many employees are going to be needed to handle payments and verify requirement for the 1800 clubs right now in existence. now imagine how many more clubs would have to be created to accommodate all those new members.
perhaps instead of resorting to personal insults you should step back think that your point of view may not be as cheap as you think it is.
semp
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German Weapons Law (Waffengesetz) of March 18, 1938 excluded Jews from owning guns,ammo being in the business of manufacture etc etc etc .It restructured a law which had been enacted ten years earlier by a Left-Center government hostile to the National Socialists ,the government headed by Wilhelm Marx and consisting of a coalition of Socialists . Got some interesting dates for China , Uganda , Cambodia etc etc . Thank you Zach . I been waiting to spring this one . The democratically elected National Socialists . Your are right in 1920's they were . In the 1930's things were changing . The 1938 law took away a Jews right to own guns . Stripping them of INDIVIDUAL rights , not collective since it left other Germans rights fairly unhampered . I admit for the the larger part of Germans the laws were far from draconian .
Exactly the ownership of guns does equate defending liberty, Germans could own guns it does not affect the behaviour of its government, you can have as many guns as you like the powers that be will enforce its will. :old:
The German enacted laws with the mandate of the people and Germans had guns.
Hibly smells!
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Took an NRA class yesterday so that I can get my concealed carry permit here in the great state of Virginia. Life is good. :)
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Exactly the ownership of guns does equate defending liberty, Germans could own guns it does not affect the behaviour of its government, you can have as many guns as you like the powers that be will enforce its will. :old:
The German enacted laws with the mandate of the people and Germans had guns.
Hibly smells!
The problem is with the lack of a specific constitution. If the legislative body "gave" a right, it can certainly take it away. In the US, while the items guaranteed in the US Constitution, it is spelled out specifically as to what those freedoms are and yet they are subject to regulation. Case in point: per the 1st Amendment a person can say as they like w/o fear of being persecuted. However, there is no right to be heard and there is no right in incite harm. They also can worship as they please within in the realm of normalcy (no sacrificing live chickens or blood letting, etc). The people can also gather as they please but that does not give them the right to hinder public normalcy (get a permit to hold a parade, block traffic, etc). Etc etc.
Regarding the 2nd Amendment here in the US, the US Constitution specifically states the right is to secure a free State. The overwhelming majority of constitutional scholars will agree that the idea was to keep the raw power of USA in the direct physical hands of the people. If the left-wingers ever decided to try and fully bring that specific right down, they can and will be met with force. The next argument usually after that statement usually gets in to a "US military vs US citizen militia". Those discussions are always fun to partake in. :aok
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... or indeed the right-wingers :aok
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Quick way to settle the whole argument. We'll meet somewhere out in the desert. We'll bring our Gun rights & you bring your....argument against gun rights. Those who leave with their rights intact are the winners. :ahand :neener: :rofl
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I have a bowl of soup to stop the Government :old:
I have a gun to stop the the Government :old:
Because you own a gun does not make you important or empower you, all it means is you own a gun. :joystick:
The Government will not force its will on you it has no need to, it knows what you are doing, counting your bullet's and looking under your bed for reds :)
I would laugh but I am jealous really because I would like a Thompson, not to fight society, but to make aloud noise with it. :)
You are all paranoid about loosing your 4x4 as well :rofl Ford,GM and Chrysler must be laughing their spuds off, biggest selling pitch they have ever had. :rofl
Its the same with Gun manufacturers they have never had it so good, your paranoia has increased gun sales :rofl
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I bought a bread knife out of paranoia, not to take on the government, but because the last lot went green! :old:
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I bought a bread knife out of paranoia, not to take on the government, but because the last lot went green! :old:
We buy guns in the same place you buy bread knives. :t
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We buy guns in the same place you buy bread knives. :t
Debenhams!?
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I shop at Aldi :old:
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zack... What kind of penny pincher are you eh?
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zack... What kind of penny pincher are you eh?
I require soft fruit products :old:
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I shop at farmers markets while listening to the archers!
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I require soft fruit products :old:
Aldi's fruit is guaranteed soft :)
I shop there too. Why pay 50% extra for some beans you don't even like.?
I am looking forward to their Thursday Assault Rifle Specials :banana:
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Aldi's fruit is guaranteed soft :)
And already fermenting
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They dont sell firearms in Aldi, but they do sell hose clips made out of cream cheese :old:
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Quick way to settle the whole argument. We'll meet somewhere out in the desert. We'll bring our Gun rights & you bring your....argument against gun rights. Those who leave with their rights intact are the winners. :ahand :neener: :rofl
ok so you want people to respect your right to the second amendment while you try to intimidate others who exercise their first amendment right.
semp
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hes just exercising his right to execute people who dont agree with him.
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Yet again you are trying to make them collective . They are individual rights . The individual can lose his rights by his actions . No one ever said that it was contrary to the Bill of Rights to take away those rights because of individual misconduct . Sorry RT the legal opinion of brilliant legal minds differ with you . I do to on this . Let me clarify your position though so I am not making a mistake . Above quoted statement <sounds to me but i could be wrong> is that society determines all rights , collectively . Those rights are collective not individual . The collective or society can take those rights away . That there is no individual rights at all ? Love the discussion bro ! Coombzy take note . Intelligent debate without rancor or personal insults .
Individual rights can only exist individually and would have no real meaning except to the individual. As soon as you interact with another individual you need universal rights. What is true for me is true for you and everyone else. A piece of paper can not give a right to you. You could only identify a right.
The real question is . Is there right and wrong? Lets say you have the right to life. someone can take your life. If your right to life is true. it is going to require a "universal tea pot in the sky" to make it anything more than mental aggression .
RTs world view is congruent in this respect. You must have a "universal tea pot in the sky" to account for right being true.
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RTs world view is congruent in this respect. You must have a "universal tea pot in the sky" to account for right being true.
No, you really don't need the teapot. It's convenient, but not necessary.
Way back in college a few of my semesters were spent in ethics classes, and they basically revolved around discussing and arguing "right" from "wrong" but we weren't allowed to use or consider any religious "rules or beliefs". We had to argue using other criteria.
If we felt that murder was "wrong", we had to argue it without any religious aspects. It's still fairly easy to argue that murder is wrong... If you haven't done so already, read some Plato for a rough idea of how it can be done.
In the end we were able to argue reasons that the "big ten" rules were important even without any consideration for whether a teapot was up there or not. Essentially, those rules are just simple rules that enable people to exist in a society. If people break those rules (within the society) it causes internal issues and the society will work to resolve those issues.
The teapot argument only works within your own society. Since there are many societies in the world, and more than one teapot, the one that any given society chooses can't be said to fully define truth. Those other societies may have their own teapots, and while their "truth" is just as valid as yours, it may not agree with yours.
When it comes to life itself, I'm not sure I'd argue that anyone or anything has a "right to live".
A right to defend their life? Yes, absolutely. Even a criminal on death row has that right, IMO.
But a right to be alive or remain alive? No.
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^ Holmes approves this post :aok
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hes just exercising his right to execute people who dont agree with him.
He didn't say he'd kill them. He said those who leave with their rights in-tact.
In other words he used an example (you guys can use examples alllll day long to support your theory, but when someone else does; they're being a psychopathic murderer? Hypocrites.)
In other words (let me break this down Barney style so you can understand it), the group WITH guns could force the group WITHOUT guns to shut the hell up, they could make them slaves etc.
For those doing the "bad gubment came an' took muh babeh": If the gun rights were gone, the folks WITH the guns would equate to the government and the unarmed would equate citizens.
For those just arguing to argue: Here is a bridge: ______________
For those talking about whether gun ownership is good: There was an article I posted on page 27 I believe where a man saved a police officer. There was one posted today on a site where a 92 year old man stopped a home invasion with one.
For those arguing about armies invading: Like I said before; "Which is easier to invade; a country where no one is armed or a country where a lot of people have guns?" - It may not stop them, but it would stall them.
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*waits for someone to tell me all of that is wrong or that I support killing unarmed folks because I defended an analogy.*
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there's hundreds I've met that I would rather shoot in the face than have them watch my back.
psychopath much?
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What's that old saying about never argue with an idiot? :-)
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I have a bowl of soup to stop the Government :old:
I have a gun to stop the the Government :old:
Because you own a gun does not make you important or empower you, all it means is you own a gun. :joystick:
The Government will not force its will on you it has no need to, it knows what you are doing, counting your bullet's and looking under your bed for reds :)
I would laugh but I am jealous really because I would like a Thompson, not to fight society, but to make aloud noise with it. :)
You are all paranoid about loosing your 4x4 as well :rofl Ford,GM and Chrysler must be laughing their spuds off, biggest selling pitch they have ever had. :rofl
Its the same with Gun manufacturers they have never had it so good, your paranoia has increased gun sales :rofl
You're entitled to your opinion, & even to voice it. I'm free to know you're you're wrong, no matter how you many ways you attempt to restate your it. :noid The British didn't think too much of our forefathers either. :D
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ok so you want people to respect your right to the second amendment while you try to intimidate others who exercise their first amendment right.
semp
Uh Guncrasher...look at the emoticons....everyone else knew it was a joke. On the other hand if people would join those who would strip us of our rights....they should be intimidated. Fear of the populace is the ONLY thing that has kept this country free this long....So, I guess it doesn't have to be a joke, even though it was. Take your pick. I don't care. :mad: No one who does not attack me or violate the constitution in an effort to abuse myself, my family, my friends has any reason to fear me. Criminals(ie: anti-constitutionalists, thieves, druggies, murders) & should be fearful that their actions may bring harm to them, no matter where they sit in our society or how powerful they feel. :salute
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I have a bowl of soup to stop the Government :old:
I have a gun to stop the the Government :old:
Because you own a gun does not make you important or empower you, all it means is you own a gun. :joystick:
The Government will not force its will on you it has no need to, it knows what you are doing, counting your bullet's and looking under your bed for reds :)
I would laugh but I am jealous really because I would like a Thompson, not to fight society, but to make aloud noise with it. :)
You are all paranoid about loosing your 4x4 as well :rofl Ford,GM and Chrysler must be laughing their spuds off, biggest selling pitch they have ever had. :rofl
Its the same with Gun manufacturers they have never had it so good, your paranoia has increased gun sales :rofl
We like making noise & shooting things making them blow up. The only time we talk about use of deadly force is when people try to say we don't have any right...yadda yadda yadda. I've been shooting targets, 2 liter bottle full of water/frozen, etc. for a long time. I believe it is an inalienable right....end of my story. No blood lust or wishes for violence here. I've had my share....but that doesn't mean I can't/won't defend myself. :salute
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psychopath much?
No. I just know that someone like a Corporal I knew once, would be very prone to dropping grenades, or seeing if they could fire a .223 round without using their rifle is a threat to everyone. A psychopath would want to kill everyone, not just the ones who would pretty much get your convoy smoked.
Example: On a patrol, hit by an IED. Convoy stops.
Vic commander says he's gonna get out. He doesn't check around him for pressure plates etc. That's a BIG no no. Why? Because he could get out, step on an IED and blow the entire vehicle up and I have a BIG problem with that seeing as how I'm sticking out of the turret. Not only does he just hop out and look around at the mountains, he starts walking around the vehicle to go to the vic behind us and not once looks at his surroundings. He could have unknowingly set off a daisy chain and killed 70% of the convoy. Did my entire vic want to smoke him? Yes. Did we? No.
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Fun tip: In Korea, they think in order to be a U.S. Marine, you have to kill an immediate family member. They think we're psychopaths. It's great.
Another tip: In Afghanistan, they think we have to eat our first born child alive in order to be a Marine. They also think we're psychopaths. Works great because the Taliban will try to AVOID USMC patrols and hit ARMY patrols instead.
psychopath much?
BTW: Pathetic use of an Ad hominem.
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Uh Guncrasher...look at the emoticons....everyone else knew it was a joke. On the other hand if people would join those who would strip us of our rights....they should be intimidated. Fear of the populace is the ONLY thing that has kept this country free this long....So, I guess it doesn't have to be a joke, even though it was. Take your pick. I don't care. :mad: No one who does not attack me or violate the constitution in an effort to abuse myself, my family, my friends has any reason to fear me. Criminals(ie: anti-constitutionalists, thieves, druggies, murders) & should be fearful that their actions may bring harm to them, no matter where they sit in our society or how powerful they feel. :salute
one more reason why we need sarcasm font. and by the way the government is not afraid of the public even those who dont own guns. they're only afraid of those who will stop giving them a lot of money to lie to us.
semp
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You're entitled to your opinion, & even to voice it. I'm free to know you're you're wrong...
Shoot him W7LPNRICK, shoot him!
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Pay your taxes and shut it :old:
Teapots require Biscuits - I like fig biscuits and custard creams :old:
All your forefathers were English middlclass Puritans :)
The Crucible is a good book as well, lots of angry people in that as well :)
Shida and Hibly both smell :rofl
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Is this handicapable thread STILL going? This is so August. Come join the rest of us in September.
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I can prove the need for firmer gun laws in the US :old:
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I can prove the need for firmer gun laws in the US :old:
(http://www.myspacegraphicsandanimations.com/images/beavis-butthead-6-7.gif)
HEH, HEH, "FIRM"
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I can prove it :old:
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Before WW2 the British Government passed many gun laws banning most rifles and pistols unless you could get a license to own with proof of a verified need to own. After the Battle of Dunkirk the British troops barely made it back to england but left most of thier equipment behind. An Invasion was a very real possibility and the country was woefully illequiped to repel it.
The request for small arms was sent to a friend of England across the pond and the Citizens of that Free Nation gave generously. Thankfully this Nation had many factories that were producing many arms during peacetime and was able to retool supplying the needed war materials.
Do not worry friends across the pond we will be ready again when the need is great with our weapons, factories and experienced Riflemen to stem the tide of evil that gains strength while some grow weak.
Slate :salute
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Before WW2 the British Government passed many gun laws banning most rifles and pistols unless you could get a license to own with proof of a verified need to own. After the Battle of Dunkirk the British troops barely made it back to england but left most of thier equipment behind. An Invasion was a very real possibility and the country was woefully illequiped to repel it.
The request for small arms was sent to a friend of England across the pond and the Citizens of that Free Nation gave generously. Thankfully this Nation had many factories that were producing many arms during peacetime and was able to retool supplying the needed war materials.
Do not worry friends across the pond we will be ready again when the need is great with our weapons, factories and experienced Riflemen to stem the tide of evil that gains strength while some grow weak.
Slate :salute
Not to mention the arms supplied by American individuals who donated some of their own rifles and pistols.
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I can prove it :old:
And ET's have been proven to exist many, many times, you can prove your opinion but yoou can not 'disprove' my opinion that differs from tyours so whats the point?
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Before WW2 the British Government passed many gun laws banning most rifles and pistols unless you could get a license to own with proof of a verified need to own. After the Battle of Dunkirk the British troops barely made it back to england but left most of thier equipment behind. An Invasion was a very real possibility and the country was woefully illequiped to repel it.
The request for small arms was sent to a friend of England across the pond and the Citizens of that Free Nation gave generously. Thankfully this Nation had many factories that were producing many arms during peacetime and was able to retool supplying the needed war materials.
Do not worry friends across the pond we will be ready again when the need is great with our weapons, factories and experienced Riflemen to stem the tide of evil that gains strength while some grow weak.
Slate :salute
Spelt "Gave generously" Pronounced "sold generously building up gigantic debts that are still being paid off to this day".
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we finally paid off the last of the loan in 2006 ...
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Spelt "Gave generously" Pronounced "sold generously building up gigantic debts that are still being paid off to this day".
I was refering to ............................. .............
Not to mention the arms supplied by American individuals who donated some of their own rifles and pistols.
Not our fault the weapons England destroyed had to be replaced and there was no cash to purchase so we put you on a payment plan. :D
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My proof is:
1. The Americans put "Syrup" on Bacon.
2. This is akin to putting Tomato sauce on Porridge.
A society that cannot distinguish between a sweet product and a meat product requires more laws.
I thank you :old:
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I was refering to ............................. .............
Not our fault the weapons England destroyed had to be replaced and there was no cash to purchase so we put you on a payment plan. :D
True. All the reserves of cash we did have was absorbed by the cash and carry programme before lend lease.
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My proof is:
1. The Americans put "Syrup" on Bacon.
2. This is akin to putting Tomato sauce on Porridge.
A society that cannot distinguish between a sweet product and a meat product requires more laws.
I thank you :old:
There ar eonly 2 things in this world that can make anything taste better when its added too it, that is Bacon and maple syrup combine those 2 and you have meat candy.
Knough Said.
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True. All the reserves of cash we did have was absorbed by the cash and carry program before lend lease.
fixed that for ya. You'd think you UKer's would have a better grasp of the queens English. :huh
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Meat candy :rofl
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Spelt "Gave generously" Pronounced "sold generously building up gigantic debts that are still being paid off to this day".
The donated weapons from the populance here were not sold.... they were given.
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one more reason why we need sarcasm font. and by the way the government is not afraid of the public even those who dont own guns. they're only afraid of those who will stop giving them a lot of money to lie to us.
semp
Respectfully disagree, OK? :salute
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Shoot him W7LPNRICK, shoot him!
No, :huh that wouldn't be legal...at this point, or very nice either :D
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I can prove it :old:
No you can't. It hasn't worked anywhere else :neener:
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Before WW2 the British Government passed many gun laws banning most rifles and pistols unless you could get a license to own with proof of a verified need to own. After the Battle of Dunkirk the British troops barely made it back to england but left most of thier equipment behind. An Invasion was a very real possibility and the country was woefully illequiped to repel it.
The request for small arms was sent to a friend of England across the pond and the Citizens of that Free Nation gave generously. Thankfully this Nation had many factories that were producing many arms during peacetime and was able to retool supplying the needed war materials.
Do not worry friends across the pond we will be ready again when the need is great with our weapons, factories and experienced Riflemen to stem the tide of evil that gains strength while some grow weak.
Slate :salute
Holy Crapoly!! :aok :aok :aok :aok :D :rofl :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :neener: :ahand :ahand
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Spelt "Gave generously" Pronounced "sold generously building up gigantic debts that are still being paid off to this day".
So? Would they rather have all been Nazi-fied? :P
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No you can't. It hasn't worked anywhere else :neener:
Refer to my post about syrup :old:
I rest my case
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Meat candy :rofl
It wasn't that funny Zack...he borrowed it. :noid
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It wasn't that funny Zack...he borrowed it. :noid
I stoldt that fair n squire.
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I stoldt that fair n squire.
True...but this is getting lame....bye bye :bolt:
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So? Would they rather have all been Nazi-fied? :P
No. Which is why they had fought for two years and three months before the US was forced into the war. :headscratch:
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Before WW2 the British Government passed many gun laws banning most rifles and pistols unless you could get a license to own with proof of a verified need to own. After the Battle of Dunkirk the British troops barely made it back to england but left most of thier equipment behind. An Invasion was a very real possibility and the country was woefully illequiped to repel it.
The request for small arms was sent to a friend of England across the pond and the Citizens of that Free Nation gave generously. Thankfully this Nation had many factories that were producing many arms during peacetime and was able to retool supplying the needed war materials.
Do not worry friends across the pond we will be ready again when the need is great with our weapons, factories and experienced Riflemen to stem the tide of evil that gains strength while some grow weak.
Slate :salute
Cheers Canada :cheers:
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No. Which is why they had fought for two years and three months before the US was forced into the war. :headscratch:
sarcasm ie: better to owe another country a large sum, than to be forced to change ideology.
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sarcasm ie: better to owe another country a large sum, than to be forced to change ideology.
YOUR BACK! HEY welcome backl!
P.s was lame LOONG ago thats why I tried to kill it. bvut it keeps coming back like soome sort of zombii thread!
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sarcasm ie: better to owe another country a large sum, than to be forced to change ideology.
That wasn't sarcastic it was a fact :aok
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It is rather odd how we have gone onto the War.
Had it not been for the Japanese and Pearl Harbor bringing the USA into the war, FDR would have been impeached for war mongering because he was allowing arms to be sent to the UK while the USA were holding a neutral stance officially. FDR was a good man for putting himself at such a risk so do what he could against nazi tyranny, while a greater number of Americans were happy with isolationism and indifferent to Nazi conquest of Europe.
:salute FDR
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It is rather odd how we have gone onto the War.
Had it not been for the Japanese and Pearl Harbor bringing the USA into the war, FDR would have been impeached for war mongering because he was allowing arms to be sent to the UK while the USA were holding a neutral stance officially. FDR was a good man for putting himself at such a risk so do what he could against nazi tyranny, while a greater number of Americans were happy with isolationism and indifferent to Nazi conquest of Europe.
:salute FDR
+1 :salute
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It wasn't that funny Zack...he borrowed it. :noid
Cheer up and shoot a gun :old:
We really care about gun laws it just a thread about nonsense :old:
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owing the yanks was good for the UK.
if was not for the debt we would a third world country, they had to allows us to have the means to pay it back :)
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Is Northern Ireland a 3rd world country? The US gives them money with no payback. :headscratch:
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Is Northern Ireland a 3rd world country? The US gives them money with no payback. :headscratch:
Given them plenty of gun donations too :furious
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Is Northern Ireland a 3rd world country? The US gives them money with no payback. :headscratch:
I thought it was a territory of England, kinda lie Puerto Rico is to the US
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An armed citizenry in this thermonuclear age is about as much of a deterrent as pointed sticks would have been in World War 2. If anyone could make it past our strategic bombers, ICBM's, nuclear submarines, army, marines, and Navy, then I don't think Bill and the neighborhood militia are going to make a difference.
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Given them plenty of gun donations too :furious
:lol Treat your subjects right and they won't rebel. :old:
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An armed citizenry in this thermonuclear age is about as much of a deterrent as pointed sticks would have been in World War 2. If anyone could make it past our strategic bombers, ICBM's, nuclear submarines, army, marines, and Navy, then I don't think Bill and the neighborhood militia are going to make a difference.
+1 QFT however most people dont want to nuke thier own back yards, so guns STILL will protect from the NWO take over
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Is Northern Ireland a 3rd world country? The US gives them money with no payback. :headscratch:
stopped the war there it worked out cheaper, southern Ireland was a third world county until the 1980's when EU money paid for freeways. (1980 they got freeways).
Like giving money to greece its cheaper then letting the commies back in.
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Before WW2 the British Government passed many gun laws banning most rifles and pistols unless you could get a license to own with proof of a verified need to own. After the Battle of Dunkirk the British troops barely made it back to england but left most of thier equipment behind. An Invasion was a very real possibility and the country was woefully illequiped to repel it.
The request for small arms was sent to a friend of England across the pond and the Citizens of that Free Nation gave generously. Thankfully this Nation had many factories that were producing many arms during peacetime and was able to retool supplying the needed war materials.
Do not worry friends across the pond we will be ready again when the need is great with our weapons, factories and experienced Riflemen to stem the tide of evil that gains strength while some grow weak.
Slate :salute
so the british had no guns at home or in the army and yet they never got invaded by the Germans. there goes the theory that a weapon in every home will stop an invading army. unless of course the weapons from the united states arrived next day thru federal express.
semp
semp
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No. Which is why they had fought for two years and three months before the US was forced into the war. :headscratch:
Are you saying England jumped into the war before they felt like they had to? Willingly, before they felt forced?
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No, you really don't need the teapot. It's convenient, but not necessary.
Way back in college a few of my semesters were spent in ethics classes, and they basically revolved around discussing and arguing "right" from "wrong" but we weren't allowed to use or consider any religious "rules or beliefs". We had to argue using other criteria.
If we felt that murder was "wrong", we had to argue it without any religious aspects. It's still fairly easy to argue that murder is wrong... If you haven't done so already, read some Plato for a rough idea of how it can be done.
In the end we were able to argue reasons that the "big ten" rules were important even without any consideration for whether a teapot was up there or not. Essentially, those rules are just simple rules that enable people to exist in a society. If people break those rules (within the society) it causes internal issues and the society will work to resolve those issues.
The teapot argument only works within your own society. Since there are many societies in the world, and more than one teapot, the one that any given society chooses can't be said to fully define truth. Those other societies may have their own teapots, and while their "truth" is just as valid as yours, it may not agree with yours.
When it comes to life itself, I'm not sure I'd argue that anyone or anything has a "right to live".
A right to defend their life? Yes, absolutely. Even a criminal on death row has that right, IMO.
But a right to be alive or remain alive? No.
We must be using a different version of what true means. If true can be different for everyone as you claim then I can have my own definition of true. That rule is necessarily false.
Murder is wrong how? I don't think you can account for it being wrong.
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We must be using a different version of what true means. If true can be different for everyone as you claim then I can have my own definition of true. That rule is necessarily false.
Murder is wrong how? I don't think you can account for it being wrong.
Phew, fortunately I didn't argue as you state... Read the response you quoted.
I didn't argue that true can be different for everyone. I stated that there can be "multiple" truths, but not that everyone can necessarily have there own (and that all are different from each other).
Are you questioning whether murder is wrong? As in, it could be "right" instead? Or neither right OR wrong?
Or are you simply doubting that it could be defined as "wrong" through any other avenue than a statement by a deity?
If it helps at all, I'm thinking of "right" and "wrong" as more or less moral/immoral.
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This thread is awesome!
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This thread is awesome!
for me it's an exchange of ideas, but for the regular rednecks, it's war. ok that's beer talking :rofl :rofl :rofl.
semp
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Are you saying England jumped into the war before they felt like they had to? Willingly, before they felt forced?
Not at all. I am saying Britain had no choice, and the US joined in as soon as it was in the same position.
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This thread is awesome!
I don't think you are taking this thread seriously :old:
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so the british had no guns at home or in the army and yet they never got invaded by the Germans. there goes the theory that a weapon in every home will stop an invading army. unless of course the weapons from the united states arrived next day thru federal express.
semp
semp
If supplies were not brought over from America before we entered the war the UK would have been invaded. Maybe if England was producing thier own small arms in large quantities there would have been less of our Merchant Seamen lost.
It's not about guns in every home repelling invaders but the infrastructure of a robust gun manufacturing sector. The US manufacturers were there to gear up for the war. If you ban most gun sales to your citizens the factories would have been out of business and not able to be producing weapons quickly.
This is how it went down in WW2. Does history repeat itself? Sure does.
Slate
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Slate is amazing :rofl
Is there any ruby slippers :rofl
But what about the moon :rofl
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Slate is amazing :rofl
Thank you thats what she said.
Is there any ruby slippers :rofl
Yes in the Hollywood hall of fame. But what about the moon :rofl
This ........ I don't think you are taking this thread seriously :old:
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If supplies were not brought over from America before we entered the war the UK would have been invaded. Maybe if England was producing thier own small arms in large quantities there would have been less of our Merchant Seamen lost.
It's not about guns in every home repelling invaders but the infrastructure of a robust gun manufacturing sector. The US manufacturers were there to gear up for the war. If you ban most gun sales to your citizens the factories would have been out of business and not able to be producing weapons quickly.
This is how it went down in WW2. Does history repeat itself? Sure does.
Slate
The flow of materials did not begin until March 1941, under the Cash and Carry banner, lend lease began on 11th December 1941. Britain wouldnt have been invaded, it had beaten off the German onslaught and Op Sealion had been cancelled by the end of 1940. I am not disparaginh the bravery anf sacrifice of merchant seamen, however the US thathelped win the Battle of Britain were the volunteer pilots of the Eagle squadrons, not the merchant seamen who weren't tasked with resupplying the UK until the following year. By which time Barbarrossa was absorbing most of Hitlers attention and the US supplies were vital in helping us continue the war. The threat of invasion had passed by this point, if it was ever a realistic proposition in the first place considering the might of the Royal Navy at the time :salute
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If supplies were not brought over from America before we entered the war the UK would have been invaded. Maybe if England was producing thier own small arms in large quantities there would have been less of our Merchant Seamen lost.
Germany's failure to knock out the RAF scuppered such invasion plans, The Battle of Britain forced a 'phony war' before the USA were involved.
What you mean to say is "Britain would have been forced into a peace treaty or ceasefire with Hitler, as Britain would have been starved had the USA not helped the largest merchant fleet (British) in the world bring food to England. Hitler didn't want war with Britain, and would have welcomed such a plan allowing him to fully concentrate on the East and his 'living space' plans."
The manufacture of guns for armed citizenry would made no difference, the luftwaffe were required to get control of the air and knock out the RAF.
Also there is no way to determine if large manufacture of arms within Britain would have saved American Seamen, Britain needed food, and other supplies. Unless American was happy letting German uboats run riot within it's coastal waters, by withdrawing all it's destroyers and escorts from the Atlantic, nothing would have changed and Amertican Merchants weren't directly involved until mid 41 long after the threat of invasion had passed.
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I think some are stuck on the official lend lease program date in March 1941. Before that there were supplies flowing to the UK as they had little trade besides North America. In hindsight we can say Guns would have made no difference now, but the english did want them back then.
True if the Germans knew how to make an invasion across the channel things would have been different.
Getting back to the OP: Gun control only makes Victims helpless.
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I think some are stuck on the official lend lease program date in March 1941. Before that there were supplies flowing to the UK as they had little trade besides North America. In hindsight we can say Guns would have made no difference now, but the english did want them back then.
True if the Germans knew how to make an invasion across the channel things would have been different.
Getting back to the OP: Gun control only makes Victims helpless.
Lend lease was December 1941. Cash and Carry was March 1941.
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Lend lease was December 1941. Cash and Carry was March 1941.
I stand corrected on the official programs dates.
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Getting back to the OP: Gun control only makes Victims helpless.
Exactly! Be a victim, or not.
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crime prevention, policing, courts, lawyers, prisons etc are extremely expensive.
since guns prevent crime, why not just issue everyone with a MAC-10 and a coupla clips. over a lifetime, and given the economies of scale, the cost could be well under $100/yr per person. no more crime and a much reduced tax bill.
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I stand corrected on the official programs dates.
Sorry. I was being pedantic :salute
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Exactly! Be a victim, or not.
having a gun does not mean that you wont be a victim, just like not having a gun means you will be victimized. I bet most home robberies happen when there's nobody home.
crime prevention, policing, courts, lawyers, prisons etc are extremely expensive.
since guns prevent crime, why not just issue everyone with a MAC-10 and a coupla clips. over a lifetime, and given the economies of scale, the cost could be well under $100/yr per person. no more crime and a much reduced tax bill.
dont be a wuss. hand everybody an m249 for home defense. heck the more bullets you can shoot the easier it will be to hi the attacker.
semp
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having a gun does not mean that you wont be a victim, just like not having a gun means you will be victimized.
Yeah, O.K., keep that thought in mind.
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dont be a wuss. hand everybody an m249 for home defense.
I'm bearing in mind the budget deficit ;)
edit: and your balance of payments. you dont want to be sending all that money to belgium do you? :D
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hmm well lets see...since the "assault" weapons ban how many shootings has there been? how many mass shootings were 30 years before the ban?
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Yeah, O.K., keep that thought in mind.
I have had a gun in my house for about 10 years and I have been alive for 47. for the first 37 years I wasn't a victim. I was never assaulted or robbed, nobody broke into my house or stole my car.
semp
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More Merchant seaman would have been saved if Ireland had not been Pro German.
America saved the British Isles with lease lend, dont be so ungrafeful.
So we had to pay the debt off and we have no Empire, at the Height of the British Empire the majority of British people were living in slums and suffering from ill health.
"Your cruel to your own before your cruel to others" :)
Britains made more money not having a empire :) , and we are all fat.
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Britains made more money not having a empire :) , and we are all fat.
You bought Meat Pies instead of having to eat cabbage. :D
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I have had a gun in my house for about 10 years and I have been alive for 47. for the first 37 years I wasn't a victim. I was never assaulted or robbed, nobody broke into my house or stole my car.
semp
Luck was with you.
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Slate is amazing :rofl
Is there any ruby slippers :rofl
But what about the moon :rofl
what about it? It's not going to be where it is much longer so why bother thiinking about it?
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what about it? It's not going to be where it is much longer so why bother thiinking about it?
It'll be where it is forever. Elvis lives there and ge will demand it :old:
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I have had a gun in my house for about 10 years and I have been alive for 47. for the first 37 years I wasn't a victim. I was never assaulted or robbed, nobody broke into my house or stole my car.
semp
Fortunately, your turn in the random act of violence has not occurred, and I hope it doesn't.
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Fortunately, your turn in the random act of violence has not occurred, and I hope it doesn't.
but i have had more than my fair share of random acts of car crashes.
guess what I am trying to say is having a gun or lack of one wont guarantee that you will be or wont be a victim or violence.
semp
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It'll be where it is forever. Elvis lives there and ge will demand it :old:
I thought he was more of a banana and pb man than a cheese meister.
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Phew, fortunately I didn't argue as you state... Read the response you quoted.
I didn't argue that true can be different for everyone. I stated that there can be "multiple" truths, but not that everyone can necessarily have there own (and that all are different from each other).
"Multiple" truths ?. In regards to Murder what are my choices? or moral/immoral.? They are absolutes how can you have multiple truths?
Truth must be absolute or your claim that murder is wrong is not absolute.
In any case were its not absolute it would not be wrong, or right. How would you know?
Are you questioning whether murder is wrong? As in, it could be "right" instead? Or neither right OR wrong?
Or are you simply doubting that it could be defined as "wrong" through any other avenue than a statement by a deity?
No doubt at all, any thing can be defined as wrong. That would just make it agreed to, not necessarily wrong. Any one that did not agree to it simply would not be wrong. they would just disagree.
If it helps at all, I'm thinking of "right" and "wrong" as more or less moral/immoral.
Where do you get wrong from?
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but i have had more than my fair share of random acts of car crashes.
guess what I am trying to say is having a gun or lack of one wont guarantee that you will be or wont be a victim or violence.
semp
There are no guarantees. Just the promise that if you are armed when accosted, you may have a chance at protecting yourself.
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I have just watched some crimminals being owned on the internet :old:
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but i have had more than my fair share of random acts of car crashes.
guess what I am trying to say is having a gun or lack of one wont guarantee that you will be or wont be a victim or violence.
semp
Now comparing apples to nails. End of transmission.
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Long thread short no they don't but some still want them.
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Long thread short no they don't but some still want them.
Those who do, don't live in reality.
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http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/06/world/europe/france-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
Too bad these folks did not have some sort of protection. The police did come to help though.
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http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/06/world/europe/france-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
Too bad these folks did not have some sort of protection. The police did come to help though.
When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.
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When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.
:rofl
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Just put in for my concealed carry permit today. Should have it within 45 days. :aok
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:rofl
My youngest brother is a Deputy Sheriff (he flies the department's fixed wing aircraft). I get under his skin now and then by referring to the cops as "social workers" or "crime statistics collection agents".
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My youngest brother is a Deputy Sheriff (he flies the department's fixed wing aircraft). I get under his skin now and then by referring to the cops as "social workers" or "crime statistics collection agents".
:lol
being a cop cant be an easy job, dealing with the scum of this earth(not saying everyone they deal with is scum) but man, I couldn't do it, no way, I would let all the pot heads go, and no child rapist would ever make court.....they would be alligator food.
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I had a race at some traffic lights on my lambretta with a taxi once, when i was half way down the road I took a proper look at said taxi and it was a police car :rofl
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http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/06/world/europe/france-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
Too bad these folks did not have some sort of protection. The police did come to help though.
these guys had guns at their house to protect them against intruders.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/california-man-wanted-murder-india-kills-wife-children/story?id=16533835
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/11/sheriff-colo-man-kills-2-_n_1586023.html
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-05-23/news/31829693_1_eviction-loan-modification-foreclosure-sale
http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Ohio-man-kills-wife-and-daughter-then-himself-3740024.php
there's always two sides to every coin. some guns are used to protect our familes and some are used to end it. I just wonder the hell is wrong with us that we must do crap like this to strangers and family alike.
semp
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:lol
being a cop cant be an easy job, dealing with the scum of this earth(not saying everyone they deal with is scum) but man, I couldn't do it, no way, I would let all the pot heads go, and no child rapist would ever make court.....they would be alligator food.
Didnt know you had those in New Hampshire.
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these guys had guns at their house to protect them against intruders.
semp
So what is the answer? OJ Simpson didn't use a gun. Those bent on killing will find a way. We've learned a truck of fertilizer can take down a building.
http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2011/12/17/man-manages-to-fire-gun-at-suspects-during-home-invasion-in-montgomery-county/
http://www.newschannel5.com/story/17595261/police-shooting-of-home-intruder-was-self-defense
There are hundreds of these stories that the liberal Media will never promote. Yes these people were home when the robbery was taking place. Thankfully they had the tools to defend thier lives because criminals don't play by the rules.
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Didnt know you had those in New Hampshire.
:t
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/ANIMALS/meholdinChompa.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/ANIMALS/chompa_maxinTank.jpg)
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in the bottom pic why do you keep em in antifreeze? Are they just pets or yyou planning on doing something with e,m?
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in the bottom pic why do you keep em in antifreeze? Are they just pets or yyou planning on doing something with e,m?
:rofl
thats called algae........and pets they were.
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these guys had guns at their house to protect them against intruders.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/california-man-wanted-murder-india-kills-wife-children/story?id=16533835
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/11/sheriff-colo-man-kills-2-_n_1586023.html
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-05-23/news/31829693_1_eviction-loan-modification-foreclosure-sale
http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Ohio-man-kills-wife-and-daughter-then-himself-3740024.php
there's always two sides to every coin. some guns are used to protect our familes and some are used to end it. I just wonder the hell is wrong with us that we must do crap like this to strangers and family alike.
semp
You just enforced their point...... had the victims had guns they may have still been alive.
Criminals will be criminals. No one is a criminal until the commit a crime.
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I bet if you cruis around with a gator nobody would mess with you, think I will get a pet gator
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You just enforced their point...... had the victims had guns they may have still been alive.
Criminals will be criminals. No one is a criminal until the commit a crime.
or maybe just enforced the idea that the closest to you are the ones that will cause you the most harm, so having your dad have a gun to protect you might not be as safe for you as you think you are.
semp
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or maybe just enforced the idea that the closest to you are the ones that will cause you the most harm, so having your dad have a gun to protect you might not be as safe for you as you think you are.
semp
So I should never be close to anyone ever again? I don't know how my fiancee is gonna handle that.
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these guys had guns at their house to protect them against intruders.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/california-man-wanted-murder-india-kills-wife-children/story?id=16533835
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/11/sheriff-colo-man-kills-2-_n_1586023.html
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-05-23/news/31829693_1_eviction-loan-modification-foreclosure-sale
http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Ohio-man-kills-wife-and-daughter-then-himself-3740024.php
there's always two sides to every coin. some guns are used to protect our familes and some are used to end it. I just wonder the hell is wrong with us that we must do crap like this to strangers and family alike.
semp
Reading through the articles, I don't see it. Where does it say that's the reason they had firearms?
Were they guns they had previously, or could they have purchased them recently intending to commit criminal acts?
If they didn't own the firearms, would everyone still be alive?
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:t
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/ANIMALS/meholdinChompa.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/ANIMALS/chompa_maxinTank.jpg)
Top Pic looks like your playing air guitar :confused:
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It is rather odd how we have gone onto the War.
Had it not been for the Japanese and Pearl Harbor bringing the USA into the war, FDR would have been impeached for war mongering because he was allowing arms to be sent to the UK while the USA were holding a neutral stance officially. FDR was a good man for putting himself at such a risk so do what he could against nazi tyranny, while a greater number of Americans were happy with isolationism and indifferent to Nazi conquest of Europe.
:salute FDR
True, but most adult Americans were still feeling the leftover effects of WWI & some felt they let Hitler's Germany go un-checked for years after they had already provided proof they violated the treaty & did nothing.... :salute Apathy early on was their enemy. :old:
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or maybe just enforced the idea that the closest to you are the ones that will cause you the most harm, so having your dad have a gun to protect you might not be as safe for you as you think you are.
semp
There are idiots in all walks of life. Making guns illegal will just reinforce their numbers.
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Top Pic looks like your playing air guitar :confused:
:lol
he was trying to get away....surprisingly strong for such a small gator....
makes me think when I took part in piercing a nurse Shark's Dorsal fin...took four of us to hold the thing down....it was barely over 2 feet long....incredibly strong, that thing was.
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in the bottom pic why do you keep em in antifreeze? Are they just pets or yyou planning on doing something with e,m?
The gators are in the anti-freeze to keep the dog from drinking it....
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There are idiots in all walks of life. Making guns illegal will just reinforce their numbers.
I dont want guns made illegal. but it was food for thought. somebody pointed out that those people who got slaughtered in Europe should have had a gun. on the other hand those who had guns at home choose to use them on their own family. it turns out that those who got killed over there were killed by family members also. that's messed up.
my point is that we are really are messed as a species, like they say, we always have been, we always will. but at some point I hope we may want to change.
back to the op, gun control laws they don't work. lack of gun control laws don't work either. it's a never ending circle.
semp
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back to the op, gun control laws they don't work. lack of gun control laws don't work either. it's a never ending circle.
That is because it has nothing to do with guns. It is the people that use a gun as a tool to hurt another person. Controlling or outlawing guns is not going to stop that intent. What about kitchen knives, baseball bats, hammers, crow bars, rocks, and the myriad of other things that people have used to hurt each other? "Control laws" for all of those "weapons" are not going to stop human nature and it's capacity to harm another.
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Gun laws create unarmed victims. Period.
Criminals do not heed gun laws.
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So true.
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That is because it has nothing to do with guns. It is the people that use a gun as a tool to hurt another person. Controlling or outlawing guns is not going to stop that intent. What about kitchen knives, baseball bats, hammers, crow bars, rocks, and the myriad of other things that people have used to hurt each other? "Control laws" for all of those "weapons" are not going to stop human nature and it's capacity to harm another.
You can't kill/injure dozens of people per minute with baseball bats, hammers, crowbars, or rocks. Also some food for thought.
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You can't kill/injure dozens of people per minute with baseball bats, hammers, crowbars, or rocks. Also some food for thought.
Nope, but there are other ways to do that, that have nothing to do with guns.
The way to control violence is to control violence. Controlling violence has nothing to do with controlling guns.
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You can't kill/injure dozens of people per minute with baseball bats, hammers, crowbars, or rocks. Also some food for thought.
Multiple thousands were killed using box cutters. The first attempt was done with explosives.
More than a hundred were killed using fertilizer and diesel fuel in Oklahoma.
It's not the tools that are the problem. It is the person(s) who use the tool that is.
Punishing many who never caused any problem does not deter the individual who is determined to hurt or kill others.
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You can't kill/injure dozens of people per minute with baseball bats, hammers, crowbars, or rocks. Also some food for thought.
Obviously, you missed the point by a wide margin.
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Obviously, you missed the point by a wide margin.
No, you've repeated the sentiment of "if there's a will, there's a way" multiple times. However, I just brought up the idea that guns make it very easy to do a lot of damage; a lot easier than anything you mentioned.
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Multiple thousands were killed using box cutters. The first attempt was done with explosives.
I didnt know that the hijackers jumped off the plane and went off on a killing rampage using box cutters at the world trade center, have you been talking to YOU?
semp
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I didnt know that the hijackers jumped off the plane and went off on a killing rampage using box cutters at the world trade center, have you been talking to YOU?
semp
Don't be obtuse. The point was valid.
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Don't be obtuse. The point was valid.
no it was lots of things that made it possible for just box cutters to be the only thing that was used but what killed most of the people wasnt box cutters it was airplanes full of fuel that did it.
semp
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no it was lots of things that made it possible for just box cutters to be the only thing that was used but what killed most of the people wasnt box cutters it was airplanes full of fuel that did it.
semp
Box cutters set it all in motion.... without those... no murder.
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Box cutters set it all in motion.... without those... no murder.
no it was the people holding the box cutters. box cutters dont kill people. people flying airplanes into buildings do.
semp
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.
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For some reason I don't feel like been slaughtered like a sheep by a criminal. I also don't feel like being outgunned by a criminal, or a corrupt government for that matter. I don't want my wife in either of those situations either. If you have ever been in a situation where life was in danger and you were truly powerless, its one of the worst feelings ever. I try to avoid that if at all possible, be it out or at home. Being well armed and well trained is one way to avoid this. Gun control is as silly as banning alcohol so we don't have drunk drivers.
Granted I do believe there should be some limits, most of which are already in place. Full autos are very hard to get legally and very expensive to get, as it should be. Full auto fire is far over rated anyway in almost all usefull apllications except pinning opponents. Same goes for any sort of area weapon, hard to justify for self defence. Should my AR's have 30rd mags, sure, the criminals will have them if possible. In a fire fight with 10 round mags with someone with a 30 is a very bad thing, even if I'm having a good day with 2-3 second reloads. 3 seconds would still get me and my wife killed in a close fight, if she wasn't armed at the time.
I do believe that all gun owners should recieve some sort of training, either free or low cost before owning a firearm, beyond that is up to the owner. But I think this would help a lot of the accidental home shootings that are usually the most tragic. And it should be everybody that comes into contact with the weapon, should go through this class. Much like having driver's ed. for a gun.
:salute
BigRat
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No, you've repeated the sentiment of "if there's a will, there's a way" multiple times. However, I just brought up the idea that guns make it very easy to do a lot of damage; a lot easier than anything you mentioned.
Again, you miss the point.
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Again, you miss the point.
He and a couple others do so intentionally.
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Again, you miss the point.
Please spell it out then.
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Please spell it out then.
B E P R E P A R E D. E I T H E R B E A S U R V I V O R O R B E A V I C T I M.
He and a couple others do so intentionally.
Apparently so. To what end, who knows?
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Should my AR's have 30rd mags, sure, the criminals will have them if possible. In a fire fight with 10 round mags with someone with a 30 is a very bad thing, even if I'm having a good day with 2-3 second reloads. 3 seconds would still get me and my wife killed in a close fight, if she wasn't armed at the time.
:salute
BigRat
where the hell do you live that you need that kind of firepower to survive? it is rare for people to bring fully automatic weapons to break into a home. I can understand for a liquor store or something like that, but for a home? do you have like millions of dollars worth of stuff in your house that will tempt somebody to do a military type operation for you?
most criminals will turn around as soon as they hear shots coming their way. they're there to get something easy to steal not to shoot it out.
I understand being prepared, but I refused to live in fear like most paranoid (cant think of a better word) people do. I have hand guns in my house one in my desk and one in my drawer next to my bed but I dont feel the need to have hundreds of rounds next to each one.
semp
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where the hell do you live that you need that kind of firepower to survive? it is rare for people to bring fully automatic weapons to break into a home. I can understand for a liquor store or something like that, but for a home? do you have like millions of dollars worth of stuff in your house that will tempt somebody to do a military type operation for you?
most criminals will turn around as soon as they hear shots coming their way. they're there to get something easy to steal not to shoot it out.
I understand being prepared, but I refused to live in fear like most paranoid (cant think of a better word) people do. I have hand guns in my house one in my desk and one in my drawer next to my bed but I dont feel the need to have hundreds of rounds next to each one.
semp
semp I have 2 AR15s both with 6 30 RD mags each.1 of them I shouldnt even have. and a few rifles I could hit a baseball at 1100 yrds with. I hope that I wouldnt have to use them on US soil but its still better to have it and not need it than need it and have it
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where the hell do you live that you need that kind of firepower to survive? it is rare for people to bring fully automatic weapons to break into a home. I can understand for a liquor store or something like that, but for a home? do you have like millions of dollars worth of stuff in your house that will tempt somebody to do a military type operation for you?
most criminals will turn around as soon as they hear shots coming their way. they're there to get something easy to steal not to shoot it out.
I understand being prepared, but I refused to live in fear like most paranoid (cant think of a better word) people do. I have hand guns in my house one in my desk and one in my drawer next to my bed but I dont feel the need to have hundreds of rounds next to each one.
semp
Where I live automatic weapons are quite common. We did infact take a few AR15's with us last weekend for the dove hunt in Douglas AZ. Not all of America smells like roses.
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Just put in for my concealed carry permit today. Should have it within 45 days. :aok
Been 40 days and I still don't have mine but as long as it's not consealed I don't need it .
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You can't kill/injure dozens of people per minute with baseball bats, hammers, crowbars, or rocks. Also some food for thought.
Says who? Some prefer axe handles, though...
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/pagans-motorcycle-club-beating-jacketjpg-d3950954c695306c_large.jpg)
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Just put in for my concealed carry permit today. Should have it within 45 days. :aok
:O
Took my wife and I a total of 25 minutes to walk out the door of the courthouse with ours...
Both of them, including the picture card.
This was after lunch break at the courthouse and we were third in line, no less...
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WOW really VonMessa . Wonder what the deal is with mine . I was told they would mail them to me . 18 page's to feel it out .
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WOW really VonMessa . Wonder what the deal is with mine . I was told they would mail them to me . 18 page's to feel it out .
Yes, really.
Pennsylvania is a "shall issue" state. (Or commonwealth, if you want to get technical)
"Shall issue" systems require a license or permit to carry a concealed handgun, and applicants must meet meet certain well defined objective criteria. However, unlike "may issue" systems, a "shall issue" state removes all arbitrary bias and discretion, compelling the issuing authority to award the permit. These laws require that the empowered authority “shall issue” a permit to applicants who meet the criteria defined by law and that they cannot delay the process with out just reasoning.
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First I have heard of a shall issue state .
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First I have heard of a shall issue state .
There are 39.
Mississippi is one of them :D
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I'm still not sure what that means ?
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I'm still not sure what that means ?
It means that issuing authorities can not deny a concealed-carry application based on nebulous, undefined criteria or personal agenda. As long as your background does not exempt you, they are required to issue your permit in a timely fashion. They can't drag their feet.
Some states are "May Issue"
States with these systems require a license or permit to carry a concealed handgun, issuance of such is at the discretion of local authorities, the issuing authority "may" issue a permit if the citizen meets certain criteria, and the likelihood of issuance within a may-issue state can range, for all practical purposes, from no-issue to a sure thing, for qualified applicants.
California and New York county authorities are given a lot of latitude in determining whether a license or permit will be issued. California ranges from a no-issue in areas like San Francisco, to nearly shall-issue environment in rural counties.
Connecticut law provides authorities very limited discretion in the issuance of a permit.
Maryland law allows citizens to apply for a permit, but if you don't have law enforcement or political connections it is extremely rare that one will be issued (making it effectively a non-issue state).
Illinois and Wisconsin are "Non-Issue" states (as well as D.C.). This requires no explanation.
Vermont has no laws at all concerning carrying a concealed weapon.
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I see . Thanks Von .
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Basically it means that, unless you have something in your past that would disqualify you from carrying a concealed weapon, these states, by their own laws, are required to and shall issue the permit and cannot deny it to the applicant based on some made-up reason.
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Here you go.
All 2 pages of it (only 1 page to fill out)
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&sqi=2&ved=0CDgQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.co.venango.pa.us%2Findex.php%2Fcomponent%2Fdocman%2Fdoc_download%2F388-application-for-pa-licence-to-carry-firearm%3FItemid%3D&ei=0-5NUMLAOOr00gHF8ICICw&usg=AFQjCNHr-hQ0Vq2RnujyidxQFrPsMutDlg&sig2=hKC_Vwt474QzgEKwr5wwRQ (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&sqi=2&ved=0CDgQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.co.venango.pa.us%2Findex.php%2Fcomponent%2Fdocman%2Fdoc_download%2F388-application-for-pa-licence-to-carry-firearm%3FItemid%3D&ei=0-5NUMLAOOr00gHF8ICICw&usg=AFQjCNHr-hQ0Vq2RnujyidxQFrPsMutDlg&sig2=hKC_Vwt474QzgEKwr5wwRQ)
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:O
Took my wife and I a total of 25 minutes to walk out the door of the courthouse with ours...
Both of them, including the picture card.
This was after lunch break at the courthouse and we were third in line, no less...
Wow, what state do you live in? Virginia is a relatively gun friendly state, but that is stunning! I'm not sure why it takes so long here.
Edit: Saw you live in PA. That is very, very interesting. VA is a shall-issue state too, but apparently they take much longer!
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First I have heard of a shall issue state .
Mississippi is a shall issue state as well, along with my state, Kansas. However, there is still a lengthy application process. After taking the class, filling out the paperwork, getting the money orders, and getting my finger prints taken, I still had to wait about 60 days to get my license.
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Wow, what state do you live in? Virginia is a relatively gun friendly state, but that is stunning! I'm not sure why it takes so long here.
Edit: Saw you live in PA. That is very, very interesting. VA is a shall-issue state too, but apparently they take much longer!
Virginia is a commonwealth, as well. :aok
The actual application process itself is very simple and consists of acquiring an application, and a passport-sized photo, filling it out, paying the fee (which can vary from county to county) and submitting it. In some counties (such as Philadelphia) the application must be submitted in person and they may do a quick and basic interview. Once the application is received the entity responsible for handling it will do a background check on you and generally verify who you are. They may contact the references you have provided on the application although many times it will not be necessary. Pennsylvania is a "shall-issue" state in regards to LTCF's, meaning the entity processing your application is required to approve it unless they can prove you are disqualified based on the law. This is very important to prevent localities from simply denying people based on political, or prejudicial biases. Additionally by state law the application must be approved or denied in 45 days (although some offices will use "business days"). Again, this is done to prevent localities from claiming they issue permits, but never actually processing them for political or prejudicial reasons.
They basically ran the names in the computer, got the results back, took pictures and printed the cards.
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Virginia is a commonwealth, as well. :aok
The actual application process itself is very simple and consists of acquiring an application, and a passport-sized photo, filling it out, paying the fee (which can vary from county to county) and submitting it. In some counties (such as Philadelphia) the application must be submitted in person and they may do a quick and basic interview. Once the application is received the entity responsible for handling it will do a background check on you and generally verify who you are. They may contact the references you have provided on the application although many times it will not be necessary. Pennsylvania is a "shall-issue" state in regards to LTCF's, meaning the entity processing your application is required to approve it unless they can prove you are disqualified based on the law. This is very important to prevent localities from simply denying people based on political, or prejudicial biases. Additionally by state law the application must be approved or denied in 45 days (although some offices will use "business days"). Again, this is done to prevent localities from claiming they issue permits, but never actually processing them for political or prejudicial reasons.
They basically ran the names in the computer, got the results back, took pictures and printed the cards.
Have you looked into getting the Utah Permit as well? Thinking of taking a class at the NRA next month so that I can get the rest of the states Virginia doesn't cover.
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Yes, really.
Pennsylvania is a "shall issue" state. (Or commonwealth, if you want to get technical)
"Shall issue" systems require a license or permit to carry a concealed handgun, and applicants must meet meet certain well defined objective criteria. However, unlike "may issue" systems, a "shall issue" state removes all arbitrary bias and discretion, compelling the issuing authority to award the permit. These laws require that the empowered authority “shall issue” a permit to applicants who meet the criteria defined by law and that they cannot delay the process with out just reasoning.
Live in PA as well, and yep, was as easy as VM states. Went into the Bucks county Sheriffs office, filled out the paperwork, they did a PICS call and left with the licence.
I do know that now they will ask for 3 non family members as referances. Close friend just got his a few mos ago and used me as his referance
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You can't kill/injure dozens of people per minute with baseball bats, hammers, crowbars, or rocks. Also some food for thought.
Ever heard of the dark ages? Plenty of people were killed pre firearms.
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Have you looked into getting the Utah Permit as well? Thinking of taking a class at the NRA next month so that I can get the rest of the states Virginia doesn't cover.
I may if we ever decide to move out West.
It would not be worth it for now, since I cannot really travel on an airline while carrying :D
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Where I live automatic weapons are quite common. We did infact take a few AR15's with us last weekend for the dove hunt in Douglas AZ. Not all of America smells like roses.
no i understand having rifles for hunting or just shooting cans, that is fun. but to argue that 30 rounds mags are needed for home defense well, that's what I dont understand. If you need them for that then it's time to move.
semp
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no i understand having rifles for hunting or just shooting cans, that is fun. but to argue that 30 rounds mags are needed for home defense well, that's what I dont understand. If you need them for that then it's time to move.
semp
and what are you gonna defend your home with when the Zombii Apocalypse happens?
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and what are you gonna defend your home with when the Zombii Apocalypse happens?
what home? when it happens there wont be many homes left. if you stay in the city you are dead, it doesnt matter how many guns you own. even small towns wont be safe. heck you cant even trust those next to you either. I would rather spend the money on an armored truck.
semp
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Ever heard of the dark ages? Plenty of people were killed pre firearms.
yes indeed, we all know people are disposed to be violent no matter what weapons are at their disposal
so why is it a good idea to make weapons that can kill so very quickly and effortlessly so easily available?
how many school shootings or crazy person rampages will it take do you think?
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yes indeed, we all know people are disposed to be violent no matter what weapons are at their disposal
so why is it a good idea to make weapons that can kill so very quickly and effortlessly so easily available?
how many school shootings or crazy person rampages will it take do you think?
Coombz, do you really think the people who had intentions of committing those rampages would really be stopped by conventional gun laws?
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Coombz, do you really think the people who had intentions of committing those rampages would really be stopped by conventional gun laws?
Possibly, they are different from habitual criminals and gang members who generally have much easier access to firearms.
Maybe they'd just go quietly crazy and off themselves. But instead it is VERY EASY for them to end the lives of A LOT of other people.
I just don't like it being so easy to take someones life. Guns make it very easy. In the UK where they have gun control laws in effect it's not a case of all the criminals being armed with guns and everyone else being preyed on at will. The criminals find it hard to get guns, and they use other weapons - still bad, but not as quick or easy to kill innocent people with.
Gun control doesn't stop crime or violence, and I wouldn't expect it to. As already mentioned we are a violent species and people will always find ways to hurt each other. But it's not so easy to kill a large number of people with so little effort as it is in a place where guns are widely available.
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yes indeed, we all know people are disposed to be violent no matter what weapons are at their disposal
so why is it a good idea to make weapons that can kill so very quickly and effortlessly so easily available?
how many school shootings or crazy person rampages will it take do you think?
How many goverment slaughters or wild animal attacks before you old world types let us colonist be? We beat you twice and bailed you out twice I think weve earned our guns. And youknow if someone is going to snap they are going to find a way to get a gun, if you can buy a bag of weed you can buy a gun.
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Possibly, they are different from habitual criminals and gang members who generally have much easier access to firearms.
Maybe they'd just go quietly crazy and off themselves. But instead it is VERY EASY for them to end the lives of A LOT of other people.
I just don't like it being so easy to take someones life. Guns make it very easy. In the UK where they have gun control laws in effect it's not a case of all the criminals being armed with guns and everyone else being preyed on at will. The criminals find it hard to get guns, and they use other weapons - still bad, but not as quick or easy to kill innocent people with.
This doesn't stop crime or violence, and I wouldn't expect it too. As already mentioned we are a violent species and people will always find ways to hurt each other. But it's not so easy to kill a large number of people with so little effort as it is in a country where guns are widely available.
Yeah h wanna kill alot of people build a fertilizer, gas and Styrofoam bomb that will be a much better way and cheaper. If they dont shoot you they will bomb you or set your building on fire or run a crowd down in a car...
Point is at this point everything that could be discussed inn this thread has been discussed so now its just talking in circles.
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Yeah h wanna kill alot of people build a fertilizer, gas and Styrofoam bomb that will be a much better way and cheaper. If they dont shoot you they will bomb you or set your building on fire or run a crowd down in a car...
Point is at this point everything that could be discussed inn this thread has been discussed so now its just talking in circles.
Terrible argument. Of course if someone really wants to hurt lots of people they can always find a way.
All I'm saying is don't make it so easy. Country full of guns = country full of people getting shot and living in fear of people with guns shooting them (hence buying more guns :lol:)
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Yeah h wanna kill alot of people build a fertilizer, gas and Styrofoam bomb that will be a much better way and cheaper. If they dont shoot you they will bomb you or set your building on fire or run a crowd down in a car...
Point is at this point everything that could be discussed inn this thread has been discussed so now its just talking in circles.
Following this line of thinking, nothing should be illegal because if someone wants to do it, they will find a way.... this rational is nonsense and you know it...
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no i understand having rifles for hunting or just shooting cans, that is fun. but to argue that 30 rounds mags are needed for home defense well, that's what I dont understand. If you need them for that then it's time to move.
semp
10 rounds through a AR15 is nothing. Try telling the ranchers on the Arizona/Mexico border 10 rounds in enough for home defense.
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10 rounds through a AR15 is nothing. Try telling the ranchers on the Arizona/Mexico border 10 rounds in enough for home defense.
most people dont live on the border.
semp
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most people dont live on the border.
semp
My point is cookie cut gun laws will never work. I think you can agree with that.
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Ya you can have as many rounds per clip as you want as long as you promise to only shoot non-whites :rolleyes: That'd probably pass muster with most of the redneck brigade
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Ya you can have as many rounds per clip as you want as long as you promise to only shoot non-whites :rolleyes:
:huh
The ranchers living on the border live in close proximity to some of the most violent drug gangs on earth. No government or man should be able to dictate to him how he can defend his life, his family, and his property.
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:huh
The ranchers living on the border live in close proximity to some of the most violent drug gangs on earth. No government or man should be able to dictate to him how he can defend his life, his family, and his property.
because what hardcore drug smuggling organisations want most of all is to call attention to themselves and their operation by attacking ranchers
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because what hardcore drug smuggling organisations want most of all is to call attention to themselves and their operation by attacking ranchers
It happens every day. The cartels control the desert.
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My point is cookie cut gun laws will never work. I think you can agree with that.
No, what I agree on is that laws or no laws isnt the answer. but the willingness to change our society is what will keep us safe. but not many are really willing to change the way we think and act, and I mean that as a nation. but that isnt going to happen. 200 years ago we kept guns to keep us safe and to take lands from those who were weaker than us. now we use guns to take things from those that are weaker than us it wont matter if they have a gun or not. we think the same way as back in the cold war. we had to have bigger nukes than the other side. now we think we need bigger guns than the other side. but what we really need is for people to be willing to work together and take care of each other. but until we do, we will just keep thinking that killing each other is the answer.
semp
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but what we really need is for people to be willing to work together and take care of each other.
Socialist! (http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k526/rwrk2/stirpot.gif)
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No, what I agree on is that laws or no laws isnt the answer. but the willingness to change our society is what will keep us safe. but not many are really willing to change the way we think and act, and I mean that as a nation. but that isnt going to happen. 200 years ago we kept guns to keep us safe and to take lands from those who were weaker than us. now we use guns to take things from those that are weaker than us it wont matter if they have a gun or not. we think the same way as back in the cold war. we had to have bigger nukes than the other side. now we think we need bigger guns than the other side. but what we really need is for people to be willing to work together and take care of each other. but until we do, we will just keep thinking that killing each other is the answer.
semp
Most gun owners will never use their firearm in anger or fear, I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say we use guns to take from the weak. Correct me if I'm wrong bud didn't our nuclear deterrents insure that war would never happen? We don't have anything close to 100% gun ownership, if we did it would be a good comparison.
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because what hardcore drug smuggling organisations want most of all is to call attention to themselves and their operation by attacking ranchers
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/03/03/americas-war-texas-farmers-attack-mexican-border/ (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/03/03/americas-war-texas-farmers-attack-mexican-border/)
Simple Google search.
Fred
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simple fox news link :lol
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simple fox news link :lol
That proved you really don't know what you are commenting about.
:D
Fred
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but what we really need is for people to be willing to work together and take care of each other.
Socialist!
Not really Semp, I'm just joking with you, sorry.
Look at medicine for a parallel: surgeons like to operate. We have to be patient as medicinal advances steadily displace their cutting and stitching with a more gentle and holistic approach.
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simple fox news link :lol
Right mate, would you only believe it if it was MSNBC, ABC, or CBS?
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Right mate, would you only believe it if it was MSNBC, ABC, or CBS?
not really, sadly most of today's media has some kind of spin or bias, some more blatant than others
Fox is even more of a joke 'news' outlet than most though, as everyone with half a brain knows
give me the good old BBC any day ;]
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Ya you can have as many rounds per clip as you want as long as you promise to only shoot non-whites :rolleyes: That'd probably pass muster with most of the redneck brigade
It's not a clip... It's a magazine. The media uses the term "clip" to describe a magazine, but the media is generally ignorant of firearms. Lots of folk without any firearms experience use the term, as a result.
As a rule, a "clip" is used to "charge" or load a magazine...
On the left is an en bloc "clip" that gets loaded into a magazine, specifically for the M1 Garand rifle. On the right is a stripper "clip" used to insert rounds into an internal magazine. This one is for the Soviet SKS rifle.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/Clip_M1-SKS.JPG)
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not really, sadly most of today's media has some kind of spin or bias, some more blatant than others
Fox is even more of a joke 'news' outlet than most though, as everyone with half a brain knows
give me the good old BBC any day ;]
Right, so anyone here who watches Fox News here is ignorant and has a half a brain? I think I'll take my chances having intellectual and philosophical discussion with you any day. I've run into so many people like you before.
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The BBC isn't an unbiased source of news either.
Just sayin,
Wurz
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Right, so anyone here who watches Fox News here is ignorant and has a half a brain?
pretty much
you can be sure their target audience isn't intelligent people who can think for themselves, when they put up stuff like this:
(http://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/static/images/item/fnc-an-20111212-unemployment.jpg)
:D there was an even better graph recently, where one axis started at some arbitrary number instead of at 0...can't remember the story or find the link though. just blatantly targeting stupid people who will just believe anything they hear on the TV. it's pretty sad that so many Americans fit into that category :lol:
wurz, you are right mate, as I said in my post above it is a sad fact that every media outlet these days has some kind of spin - I still think the BBC is far better than the majority though.
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Following this line of thinking, nothing should be illegal because if someone wants to do it, they will find a way.... this rational is nonsense and you know it...
When "things" are made illegal, it's usually because the government (Federal, State or local) wants to regulate behavior. Often that behavior would be limited to a small portion of the population. The net result is that the whole population is restricted, except those who ignore authority. More often that not, those who ignore authority are precisely that small portion of the population whose behavior the government wanted to regulate... The most amazing thing is that the government, never, ever learns this.
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pretty much
you can be sure their target audience isn't intelligent people who can think for themselves, when they put up stuff like this:
(http://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/static/images/item/fnc-an-20111212-unemployment.jpg)
:D there was an even better graph recently, where one axis started at some arbitrary number instead of at 0...can't remember the story or find the link though. just blatantly targeting stupid people who will just believe anything they hear on the TV. it's pretty sad that so many Americans fit into that category :lol:
wurz, you are right mate, as I said in my post above it is a sad fact that every media outlet these days has some kind of spin - I still think the BBC is far better than the majority though.
What's wrong with that chart? I see you found it on the Mediamatters.org website... An organization/website largely funded by George Soros to undermine and damage Fox news. Billionaire George Soros... Hater of everything American. If you believe anything presented by mediamatters.org as anything more than half truth or outright lie, well, you'd be an idiot.
Here's the organizations funded, or partially funded by Soros.
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=977 (http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=977)
By the way, that chart you mocked is exactly accurate per data from the Federal Bureau of Labor Statistics. You can go to the source and download the data from 2005 though July 2012 right here:
http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/surveymost?ln (http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/surveymost?ln)
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You can't see what is wrong with that chart and yet you call me an idiot :headscratch:
By the way that picture and story can be seen on a lot of places other than mediamatters, it's not something they just dreamed up :]
I saw it on another forum a while ago and just Google'd to find it again
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You can't see what is wrong with that chart and yet you call me an idiot :headscratch:
By the way that picture and story can be seen on a lot of places other than mediamatters, it's not something they just dreamed up :]
I saw it on another forum a while ago and just Google'd to find it again
We can all see that the last point on the curve was mis-located... So what? The percentage shown is correct.
How about this? http://youtu.be/W1W9ih09gxU (http://youtu.be/W1W9ih09gxU)
Or this...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq-eeWow_WU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq-eeWow_WU)
Simple, sometimes amusing errors are not what we judge by, unless we're the smug type.....
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Ah the classic partisan deflection/topic change by pointing at the other side :aok
I was making fun of Fox News and it's viewers, if we're going to switch to mocking American politics in its entirety then just go back 10 pages or so and refer to my previous posts
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When "things" are made illegal, it's usually because the government (Federal, State or local) wants to regulate behavior. Often that behavior would be limited to a small portion of the population. The net result is that the whole population is restricted, except those who ignore authority. More often that not, those who ignore authority are precisely that small portion of the population whose behavior the government wanted to regulate... The most amazing thing is that the government, never, ever learns this.
Or maybe when an item is highly regulated, and the law is vigorously enforced, it generally reduces total supply. The less available an item is, less likely it will be used...
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no it was lots of things that made it possible for just box cutters to be the only thing that was used but what killed most of the people wasnt box cutters it was airplanes full of fuel that did it.
semp
Mostly what killed all those people was not knowing they were in imminent threat of death. An unarmed man will surely attack an armed man if he will die if he doesn't. The thought the Boxer Cutter wielding Nut Job was hi-jacking them in typical fashion...to make threats & later demands. I would not hesitate to attack someone holding a knife who is trying to fly me into a bldg in a jumbo jet. The next attempt was met with resistance and nearly foiled, because one man was on the phone to his mother who told them what was going to happen. So he knew if he didn't try, they would surely die. :salute
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where the hell do you live that you need that kind of firepower to survive? it is rare for people to bring fully automatic weapons to break into a home. I can understand for a liquor store or something like that, but for a home? do you have like millions of dollars worth of stuff in your house that will tempt somebody to do a military type operation for you?
most criminals will turn around as soon as they hear shots coming their way. they're there to get something easy to steal not to shoot it out.
I understand being prepared, but I refused to live in fear like most paranoid (cant think of a better word) people do. I have hand guns in my house one in my desk and one in my drawer next to my bed but I dont feel the need to have hundreds of rounds next to each one.
semp
Why do you assume that if the fight isn't over in 5 minutes & 10 rounds, that it's not realistic? Our world is becoming more violent every day. We have seen assaults on Banks with full auto AK's with 100's of rounds, multiple clips, flack jackets & helmets, & you still think a similar scenario with "drug dealers at the wrong house" is impossible....or..... :old:
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You can't see what is wrong with that chart and yet you call me an idiot :headscratch:
By the way that picture and story can be seen on a lot of places other than mediamatters, it's not something they just dreamed up :]
I saw it on another forum a while ago and just Google'd to find it again
There is nothing wrong with that chart. Unemployment figures deal in tenth of percentage points. If you tried a bigger range, no one could tell there was any chance in the graph.
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my fav fox news gaffe...
(http://i.huffpost.com/gen/243033/FOXNEWS-EGYPT.jpg)
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Or maybe when an item is highly regulated, and the law is vigorously enforced, it generally reduces total supply. The less available an item is, less likely it will be used...
Or maybe criminals will find ways to get said items, and when the general population is unable to get them for themselves, they are less secure and more vulnerable to an attack.
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my fav fox news gaffe...
(http://i.huffpost.com/gen/243033/FOXNEWS-EGYPT.jpg)
I could give you a treasure chest of MSNBC clips filled with presenters and guests who hate-monger and spew vile and nasty things on air.
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There is nothing wrong with that chart. Unemployment figures deal in tenth of percentage points. If you tried a bigger range, no one could tell there was any chance in the graph.
Please note the erroneous position of the last point on the graph.
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Or maybe criminals will find ways to get said items, and when the general population is unable to get them for themselves, they are less secure and more vulnerable to an attack.
Right, that's why they are robbing banks with howitzers :rolleyes:
Most guns criminals use were legally obtained by someone.... more often than not by someone they know who gave it to them or purchased it for them....
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I could give you a treasure chest of MSNBC clips filled with presenters and guests who hate-monger and spew vile and nasty things on air.
I bet you could, MSNBC its the fox equivalent on the left... You won't find me championing them either.
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Please note the erroneous position of the last point on the graph.
Fair enough, didn't notice that- but the point still remains...
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I bet you could, MSNBC its the fox equivalent on the left... You won't find me championing them either.
No, MSNBC is an absolute joke. They have zero ratings. They never bring any conservatives on their shows. The ones they claim to bring on are not conservatives, but big government, liberal Republicans. Fox at least does bring on liberals every now and then to stir the pot. MSNBC's presenters are radical leftists who constantly fill the air with inflammatory and divisive language that often goes overlooked. If Fox News said some of the things they did, the entire US media would crucify them in an instant.
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Fair enough, didn't notice that- but the point still remains...
Yes, the point remains that Fox News is targeted primarily at idiots who will believe anything they see and hear, as long as it fits in with their preconceived ideas and prejudices.
You could probably do a poll and 90% of viewers would say they believe the current president is a Muslim ;]
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No, MSNBC is an absolute joke. They have zero ratings. They never bring any conservative their shows. The ones they claim to bring on are not conservatives, but big government, liberal Republicans. Fox at least does bring on liberals every now and then to stir the pot. MSNBC's presenters are radical leftists who constantly fill the air with inflammatory and divisive language that often goes overlooked. If Fox News said some of the things they did, the entire US media would crucify them in an instant.
:rofl :rofl So basically, right wing biased cr*p 'news' is better than left wing biased cr*p 'news'? :rofl :rofl :rofl
EDIT: to put *s in cr*p
If it looks like cr*p and it smells like cr*p... its.....cr*p!
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Yes, the point remains that Fox News is targeted primarily at idiots who will believe anything they see and hear, as long as it fits in with their preconceived ideas and prejudices.
You could probably do a poll and 90% of viewers would say they believe the current president is a Muslim ;]
All I need to know about you is that you go to Media Matters for your sources. Liberals like you are a dime a dozen. I would welcome a political philosophy discussion with you any day.
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my fav fox news gaffe...
(http://i.huffpost.com/gen/243033/FOXNEWS-EGYPT.jpg)
Ouch! I didn't know they moved Egypt... someone at fox was getting canned & figured to screw them on the way out...lol :rofl :aok
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Or maybe when an item is highly regulated, and the law is vigorously enforced, it generally reduces total supply. The less available an item is, less likely it will be used...
How's that working out for the war on drugs?
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Ah the classic partisan deflection/topic change by pointing at the other side :aok
Pot meet Kettle....
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Or maybe when an item is highly regulated, and the law is vigorously enforced, it generally reduces total supply. The less available an item is, less likely it will be used...
Prohibition... The War on Drugs...
Yeah, that all worked... The supply will always meet the demand, with only the cost being impacted.
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All I need to know about you is that you go to Media Matters for your sources. Liberals like you are a dime a dozen. I would welcome a political philosophy discussion with you any day.
lol i had never even heard of media matters until two people whined about it in this thread
as i said in my previous post, i just Google'd for the dodgy Fox News graph that i remembered seeing on another forum, and posted the first correct result from the image search
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Prohibition... The War on Drugs...
Yeah, that all worked... The supply will always meet the demand, with only the cost being impacted.
2 things...
1) Bad examples, as most people didn't agree and engaged/engage in civil disobedience, even law enforcement regularly broke the rules (esp with prohibition). If you look at my initial post, I never said all guns should be illegal, just that there should be rules, esp around full auto ones (which are highly regulated today).
2) Yes, econ 101, supply always meets demand, rise the price high enough and its not a viable option for most criminals.
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lol i had never even heard of media matters until two people whined about it in this thread
as i said in my previous post, i just Google'd for the dodgy Fox News graph that i remembered seeing on another forum, and posted the first correct result from the image search
You should use google to educate yourself on the Mexico/Arizona border.
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Pot meet Kettle....
so can you quote where I've done that in this (or any) thread or are you just talking more rubbish?
or if you're referring to me as partisan then you're way off the mark, just because i enjoy trolling right wing redneck r tards doesn't mean i am a crazy liberal
I actually think all political organizations and governments are generally as worthless, corrupt and generally ineffectual as each other
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so can you quote where I've done that in this (or any) thread or are you just talking more rubbish?
or if you're referring to me as partisan then you're way off the mark, just because i enjoy trolling right wing redneck r tards doesn't mean i am a crazy liberal
I actually think all political organizations and governments are generally as worthless, corrupt and generally ineffectual as each other
You used the chart to indicate that the folks at Fox news are idiots and cater to the same. I used two examples of where the "leader of the free world" and his designated coat holder can make ridiculous errors as well, thereby insinuating they are not as bright as one might hope (okay, we all know that the VP is as sharp as cream cheese). Pot vs kettle. Two offsetting examples of generalizing.
At least we agree that governments are the like the dragon eating his own tail; self-consuming beasts. Amoral, if not immoral and completely inefficient at anything beyond wasting resources and the public's trust.
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How many goverment slaughters or wild animal attacks before you old world types let us colonist be? We beat you twice and bailed you out twice I think weve earned our guns. And youknow if someone is going to snap they are going to find a way to get a gun, if you can buy a bag of weed you can buy a gun.
:headscratch:
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You used the chart to indicate that the folks at Fox news are idiots and cater to the same. I used two examples of where the "leader of the free world" and his designated coat holder can make ridiculous errors as well, thereby insinuating they are not as bright as one might hope (okay, we all know that the VP is as sharp as cream cheese). Pot vs kettle. Two offsetting examples of generalizing.
Not really...making an error is one thing, and something we can both admit that all people are prone to from time to time...but that's not really what I was getting at with the Fox graph.
That's a prime example of what I guess is the worst aspect of any biased news outlet (not solely limited to Fox)...presenting information inaccurately to spin the viewer or reader's perception into thinking it means something other than it does.
Computer generated graphs don't get messed up like that by accident :)
You could provide an example of a left wing media outlet doing some similary shady stuff, and that would be a good offsetting example. But we see so much of that already in political discourse these days don't we? "X person/side did this" "But Y person/side did that!" and the mud slinging goes on and on, distracting the voting population from the simple fact that they don't really have any influence at all
At least we agree that governments are the like the dragon eating his own tail; self-consuming beasts. Amoral, if not immoral and completely inefficient at anything beyond wasting resources and the public's trust.
:aok
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Mississippi is a shall issue state as well, along with my state, Kansas. However, there is still a lengthy application process. After taking the class, filling out the paperwork, getting the money orders, and getting my finger prints taken, I still had to wait about 60 days to get my license.
60 day's wow . I at the point wondering where mine is . It is almost not worth it to go through the trouble to get them . Legal to carry open .
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60 day's wow . I at the point wondering where mine is . It is almost not worth it to go through the trouble to get them . Legal to carry open .
Although perfectly legal, it is more hassle than it is worth to open carry.
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Why you say that Von ?
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Why you say that Von ?
Carry open and you shall find out. :)
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Carry open and you shall find out. :)
^^^^
This.
:devil
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Carry open and you shall find out. :)
I do and never had any trouble ? I see what your saying now tho .
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Gun control itself is a silly idea.
You cannot control an individual and his desires to make someone else dead. If it's not a gun, it will be a knife, or a rock, or a stick...
Despite our best efforts to make this world a wonderful and safe place, it's not going to happen. I think we should all try to leave this place better than we found it, but using gun control as a way to stop violence is akin to using a band-aid to close a severed Aorta.
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I do and never had any trouble ? I see what your saying now tho .
Go check out youtube just search open carry and youll see ALOT of hassle.
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Gun control itself is a silly idea.
You cannot control an individual and his desires to make someone else dead. If it's not a gun, it will be a knife, or a rock, or a stick...
Despite our best efforts to make this world a wonderful and safe place, it's not going to happen. I think we should all try to leave this place better than we found it, but using gun control as a way to stop violence is akin to using a band-aid to close a severed Aorta.
I tend to agree with the analogy you used, however I think it is somewhat in error. Gun control is like using the defibrillator on the ambulance attendant who brought the heart attack victim into the hospital. It doesn't work on the real problem but it gives the ones who don't need it an unnecessary jolt and makes their lives unpleasant.
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Go check out youtube just search open carry and youll see ALOT of hassle.
Yeah , I guess it depends on where you live . Like most around here have or carry a hand gun but there is just no law just game wardens and they don't ask for paper work .
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Why do you assume that if the fight isn't over in 5 minutes & 10 rounds, that it's not realistic? Our world is becoming more violent every day. We have seen assaults on Banks with full auto AK's with 100's of rounds, multiple clips, flack jackets & helmets, & you still think a similar scenario with "drug dealers at the wrong house" is impossible....or..... :old:
you live in a bank? criminals don't g to houses to shoot it out with the occupant, unless of course there's a contract on you, they go for the quick grab and get out fast.
semp
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you live in a bank? criminals don't g to houses to shoot it out with the occupant, unless of course there's a contract on you, they go for the quick grab and get out fast.
semp
Because they KNOW you likely aren't armed and are an easy target? think about how absolutely easy it would have been for bonnie and Clyde in the UK. They'd still be robin' and stealin' today most likely. UK justice is an absolute joke and I'm really surprised the people over there ha vent wizened up and taken steps to protect them selves. Guess being a sheeple and stupidly chewing your cud while the world spins by is a better alternative to Freedom and independant thought.
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you live in a bank? criminals don't g to houses to shoot it out with the occupant, unless of course there's a contract on you, they go for the quick grab and get out fast.
semp
Guess you never have heard the term "Home Invasion".
Burglars are not the only ones breaking into homes.
Fred
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Because they KNOW you likely arent armed and are an easy target?
I wish that was the case.
Sadly, my dog makes too much of a racket and it is likely that I wouldn't have to deal with anyone in my home...
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Guess you never have heard the term "Home Invasion".
Burglars are not the only ones breaking into homes.
Fred
Seems like there has been at least two per week on the news around here for the past couple of months...
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I wish that was the case.
Sadly, my dog makes too much of a racket and it is likely that I wouldn't have to deal with anyone in my home...
(http://whatscookingamerica.net/Beef/TBoneSteak1.jpg) My anti-anti theft device
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(http://whatscookingamerica.net/Beef/TBoneSteak1.jpg) My anti-anti theft device
Good luck with that.
Any dogs I have owned/trained only eat from my hand and only when I say so. This has been discussed before.
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Good luck with that.
Any dogs I have owned/trained only eat from my hand and only when I say so. This has been discussed before.
Im sure I could convice them to take a bite
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Because they KNOW you likely aren't armed and are an easy target? think about how absolutely easy it would have been for bonnie and Clyde in the UK. They'd still be robin' and stealin' today most likely. UK justice is an absolute joke and I'm really surprised the people over there ha vent wizened up and taken steps to protect them selves. Guess being a sheeple and stupidly chewing your cud while the world spins by is a better alternative to Freedom and independant thought.
too bad you didn't use your own independent thought process to figure out what I was replying to. and bonnie and Clyde or England or the tooth fairy have nothing to do with it.
semp
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I tend to agree with the analogy you used, however I think it is somewhat in error. Gun control is like using the defibrillator on the ambulance attendant who brought the heart attack victim into the hospital. It doesn't work on the real problem but it gives the ones who don't need it an unnecessary jolt and makes their lives unpleasant.
You're right. I think both analogies are valid.
The way I tilt my head at it, most of the people who are in favor of tougher gun laws mistakenly believe that no guns = no violence. I think that's dumb. We're a violent culture, for better or worse. Taking away guns won't take away the urge for people to hurt other people, it will just mean they'll figure out other ways to do it.
But the real reason to oppose sweeping changes in gun laws points back to what I believe (and I assume many others) is the original intent of the 2nd Amendment - Protection from a tyrannical government. Despite large segments of our population believing different, we've never been more than a few presidential terms from a government running amok. If we as a people give the government more control (or allow them to have more) where does it stop? How do we know that power will never be abused? We don't. This is the reason so many we're opposed to the Patriot Act. Even though I was in favor of it, I could understand the argument. In the shadow of 9/11, it was an easy call. I don't want another terrorist attack and the Patriot Act will stop that... right? If that's true, and the government never abuses the power, it's a win. But what if...
It's occurred to me many times when debating our rights in this country that the 2nd Amendment is the one that protects all others. Seems very simple to me, yet there are those that can't see it.
Here's to hoping we can all get along, talk about it, and go shoot our guns afterwards. :cheers:
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UK justice is an absolute joke and I'm really surprised the people over there ha vent wizened up and taken steps to protect them selves.
hehehe i know it must be pretty funny living somewhere where the cops don't taze you or beat you up for talking back to them and they don't shoot and kill suspects who are already detained and in handcuffs. what a crazy place why haven't people done something about it?!?!
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You're right. I think both analogies are valid.
The way I tilt my head at it, most of the people who are in favor of tougher gun laws mistakenly believe that no guns = no violence. I think that's dumb. We're a violent culture, for better or worse. Taking away guns won't take away the urge for people to hurt other people, it will just mean they'll figure out other ways to do it.
Gun control doesn't stop crime or violence, and I wouldn't expect it to. As already mentioned we are a violent species and people will always find ways to hurt each other. But it's not so easy to kill a large number of people with so little effort as it is in a place where guns are widely available.
All I'm saying is don't make it so easy. Country full of guns = country full of people getting shot and living in fear of people with guns shooting them (hence buying more guns :lol )
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Gun control doesn't stop crime or violence, and I wouldn't expect it to. As already mentioned we are a violent species and people will always find ways to hurt each other. But it's not so easy to kill a large number of people with so little effort as it is in a place where guns are widely available.
Reference our most recent attack in Colorado. The guy had his apartment booby trapped with explosives. Homemade explosives, that are illegal to assemble... yet he still did it.
Take guns out of the equation, and he still finds a way to hurt lots of people very quickly.
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how many people were hurt by his home made explosives?
how many people by his legally acquired guns?
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Im sure I could convice them to take a bite
I'm sure she would accept your offer...
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/Puppy/Parents/saba3.jpg)
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Terrible argument. Of course if someone really wants to hurt lots of people they can always find a way.
All I'm saying is don't make it so easy. Country full of guns = country full of people getting shot and living in fear of people with guns shooting them (hence buying more guns :lol:)
If the bolded part is really your opinion I don't understand your opposition to guns. You fully admit people will just find another way. So what, we just keep chasing our tail, taking away options for law abiding people? To me, your method is treating the symptoms, not the cause.
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Gun crime has almost doubled since Labour came to power as a culture of extreme gang violence has taken hold.
The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
In some parts of the country, the number of offences has increased more than five-fold.
In eighteen police areas, gun crime at least doubled.
The statistic will fuel fears that the police are struggling to contain gang-related violence, in which the carrying of a firearm has become increasingly common place.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223193/Culture-violence-Gun-crime-goes-89-decade.html#ixzz26C9ZJinc
The Gangs didn't get the memo of a gun free society.
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how many people were hurt by his home made explosives?
how many people by his legally acquired guns?
So you're saying he couldn't have substituted a pipe bomb for the guns he used?
It isn't the method or the tool... it's the fact that the demented SOB wanted to kill people who had done him no harm.
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If the bolded part is really your opinion I don't understand your opposition to guns. You fully admit people will just find another way. So what, we just keep chasing our tail, taking away options for law abiding people? To me, your method is treating the symptoms, not the cause.
I don't have an opposition to guns, I have an opposition to making guns easily available. People will always hurt each other, sure...I'm just saying don't have the tools to so EASILY kill a LARGE number of people so widespread in your country.
If you're happy with the amount of people getting shot in the US, fine. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live there though. Yeah, you can buy weapons to defend yourself and your family, but I don't like the idea of living in fear.
edit: @ Slate, just as I won't bother responding to any garbage linked from Fox News, I won't waste my time with anyone who reads the Daily Mail...it's sort of funny when you think about it, although I'm sure the joke would be lost on you
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I don't have an opposition to guns, I have an opposition to making guns easily available. People will always hurt each other, sure...I'm just saying don't have the tools to so EASILY kill a LARGE number of people so widespread in your country.
If you're happy with the amount of people getting shot in the US, fine. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live there though. Yeah, you can buy weapons to defend yourself and your family, but I don't like the idea of living in fear.
edit: @ Slate, just as I won't bother responding to any garbage linked from Fox News, I won't waste my time with anyone who reads the Daily Mail...it's sort of funny when you think about it, although I'm sure the joke would be lost on you
Your comment is funny. I have lived in the US for most of my life, and I don't live in fear. I am a bit curious if you have ever spent some time here.
Funny how you are so opposed to FOX News. I usually find people that are on the far left take that position. As for me, before you think I am some FOX groupie, I get my news from various sources including the BBS. I have found that all media outlets tend to slant in one direction or another.
Fred
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I don't have an opposition to guns, I have an opposition to making guns easily available. People will always hurt each other, sure...I'm just saying don't have the tools to so EASILY kill a LARGE number of people so widespread in your country.
If you're happy with the amount of people getting shot in the US, fine. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live there though. Yeah, you can buy weapons to defend yourself and your family, but I don't like the idea of living in fear.
edit: @ Slate, just as I won't bother responding to any garbage linked from Fox News, I won't waste my time with anyone who reads the Daily Mail...it's sort of funny when you think about it, although I'm sure the joke would be lost on you
Yet again you completely ignore the fact that a criminal can get a weapon if he wants and so can a loony get one just as easily and not in a legal way. Its funny that you wont reply to news sourses that people link its pretty nitpicky aqnd seems to indicate you are not being fair about this discussion and you will not entertain any evidence contreay to your trolling agenda. Yet another reason for this retared thread to close. It's pointless as the 2 sides are so polarised no fair discussion can take place.
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I don't have an opposition to guns, I have an opposition to making guns easily available. People will always hurt each other, sure...I'm just saying don't have the tools to so EASILY kill a LARGE number of people so widespread in your country.
You make it sound like they're given away for free on the street corner. New guns require background checks. Personally owned firearms can be sold to other individuals without forms to fill out, however, these guns are usually not the ones you hear about on the evening news.
As for killing large amounts of people, as discussed, there are still other ways to do it. Making it harder to buy guns will not stop that. You've admitted as much.
If you're happy with the amount of people getting shot in the US, fine. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live there though. Yeah, you can buy weapons to defend yourself and your family, but I don't like the idea of living in fear.
I'm not living in fear. I'm living in the reality that you've acknowledged. There are people in this world, for whatever stupid/evil reason who will at some point try to harm innocent people. Statistics say I'm unlikely to be one of them, but that's always in doubt.
I believe (and US case laws agrees) that my personal protection is my responsibility. The state has no obligation to protect me or my family. They cannot be everywhere I am at all times. That being the case, I'll take every option I can.
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And here come ANOTHER circle reply to bring back this discussion to a poiint maede on page 3
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I have found that all media outlets tend to slant in one direction or another.
I agree, and have already said as much in this thread.
Yes, I have spent time in the US on several occasions and loved it. Lots of great places (although I obviously haven't been able to go everywhere in the states :) ) and incredibly friendly people. It always makes me laugh when I reflect on how abrasive and arrogant Americans tend to be on the internet in comparison to my memories of their kindness and general affability in real life. It's weird.
Also have some American 'friends of the family' who we have known a long time who visit and 'vacation' with us fairly regularly. They are lovely people but we find a few things weird such as their inability to go anywhere that doesn't have a large supply of Diet Coke, and the way they get all freaked out by the idea of having to wait for more than 15 minutes for food at what we would consider a real restaurant
Its funny that you wont reply to news sourses that people link its pretty nitpicky aqnd seems to indicate you are not being fair about this discussion and you will not entertain any evidence contreay to your trolling agenda.
Honestly what would be the point? I see the same thing on other forums all the time. You've got half the idiots posting garbage from their extreme right wing news sites or blogs, and the other half posting equally skewed material from crazy liberal media outlets. I don't frequent any such websites, so I don't have a never ending source of BS links and news stories to offset all the ones posted here :) I make up my own mind.
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I agree, and have already said as much in this thread.
Yes, I have spent time in the US on several occasions and loved it. Lots of great places (although I obviously haven't been able to go everywhere in the states :) ) and incredibly friendly people. It always makes me laugh when I reflect on how abrasive and arrogant Americans tend to be on the internet in comparison to my memories of their kindness and general affability in real life. It's weird.
Also have some American 'friends of the family' who we have known a long time who visit and 'vacation' with us fairly regularly. They are lovely people but we find a few things weird such as their inability to go anywhere that doesn't have a large supply of Diet Coke, and the way they get all freaked out by the idea of having to wait for more than 15 minutes for food at what we would consider a real restaurant
Honestly what would be the point? I see the same thing on other forums all the time. You've got half the idiots posting garbage from their extreme right wing news sites or blogs, and the other half posting equally skewed material from crazy liberal media outlets. I don't frequent any such websites, so I don't have a never ending source of BS links and news stories to offset all the ones posted here :) I make up my own mind.
I feel your image of Americans is grossly sterotypical.
Thank you for backing me up whats the point of this thread nobody is goinnna change thier mind so its a circle of trolling. All signs of intellegent life in this thread died post page 4
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always makes me laugh when I reflect on how abrasive and arrogant Americans tend to be on the internet in comparison to my memories of their kindness and general affability in real life. It's weird.
Have you considered it could be a response to your abrasiveness/arrogance that you may not exude in person.
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Have you considered it could be a response to your abrasiveness/arrogance that you may not exude in person.
[/quote I dont find coombyz abrasive I just thin hes a troll.
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I usually only start with my abrasive trolling to highlight and mock the typical arrogance and stupidity of gun nuts and their ilk
it's a chicken/egg thing, the arrogant 'we are the only country that matters' posts come first, followed by me making fun of your fluffied up country :)
edit: HamHawk :aok
What else do you expect me to do, sit here and actually work?!?!?
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I usually only start with my abrasive trolling to highlight and mock the typical arrogance and stupidity of gun nuts and their ilk
it's a chicken/egg thing, the arrogant 'we are the only country that matters' posts come first, followed by me making fun of your fluffied up country :)
Right please link one thread that indicates this kind of thought.
EDIT: Im working. Look I just data entried this policy into my system
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I usually only start with my abrasive trolling to highlight and mock the typical arrogance and stupidity of gun nuts and their ilk
it's a chicken/egg thing, the arrogant 'we are the only country that matters' posts come first, followed by me making fun of your fluffied up country :)
edit: HamHawk :aok
What else do you expect me to do, sit here and actually work?!?!?
(http://i48.tinypic.com/210a92t.jpg)
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(http://i48.tinypic.com/210a92t.jpg)
You are welcome. Ive seen you use this many times since I posted it. Thats fine I gave of it freely
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EDIT: Im working. Look I just data entried this policy into my system
Yes, folks I do key things into a computer as part of my job
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hehehe i know it must be pretty funny living somewhere where the cops don't taze you or beat you up for talking back to them and they don't shoot and kill suspects who are already detained and in handcuffs. what a crazy place why haven't people done something about it?!?!
Well since your entire population is less than than some of our cities and you can pretty much walk across your country.... not many places to hide. :)
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not many places to hide. :)
In hobbit holes! :old:
Also coombzy it was these gun nuts that saved yall twice
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"There's a reason why some people like to call it 'the daily fail"
I see that left leaners don't like right leaners and dismiss everything because of that bias. Fox News is just like any left leaning Media outlet. Sensationalizing stories to get veiwers. You have to pick through it all to get the truth but when your mind is closed no truth will ever be found.
I don't believe most statistics as I learned stats are swayed by the info used.
There seems to be a resentment for the USA and OUR culture being the cause of the worlds woes. Our culture is the mix of all the world and that is our strength.
While some wish the corrupt UN should control the world. We fought for our Independence and will fight to keep it.
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.
There seems to be a resentment for the USA and OUR culture being the cause of the worlds woes. Our culture is the mix of all the world and that is our strength.
While some wish the corrupt UN should control the world. We fought for our Independence and will fight to keep it.
Ands some people are just pissy because the sun did indeed set on thier empire and out pies are better,.
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Ands some people are just pissy because the sun did indeed set on thier empire and out pies are better,.
Yes, every other place in the world is very jealous of America :aok
Your country and your citizens are not a joke to the rest of the world whatsoever
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Yes, every other place in the world is very jealous of America :aok
Your country and your citizens are not a joke to the rest of the world whatsoever
:rolleyes:
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jealous of your freeeeeedoooommmmssss
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Sadly our once great freedoms are now slowly eroding away.
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60 day's wow . I at the point wondering where mine is . It is almost not worth it to go through the trouble to get them . Legal to carry open .
Ehh might as well put in for it. Otherwise you'll just keep putting it off. Who knows, they might get it back to you sooner.
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Sadly our once great freedoms are now slowly eroding away.
But you all have guns to prevent that though, right? :)
I agree that things do appear to have been going a bit sour in that respect in the states in recent years.
When do you think the glorious revolution will begin? November? hehe
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My youngest brother is a Deputy Sheriff (he flies the department's fixed wing aircraft). I get under his skin now and then by referring to the cops as "social workers" or "crime statistics collection agents".
We call them historians.
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But you all have guns to prevent that though, right? :)
I agree that things do appear to have been going a bit sour in that respect in the states in recent years.
When do you think the glorious revolution will begin? November? hehe
;) If the current President gets reelected in November, I predict gun sales will surge to an unheard of level. It happened in 2008 as well.
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Just keeping it going...almost up too 1000 reply
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A few days ago I made the decision to sell my unused (as in never fired) CETME 58 rifle. My wife gave it to me for my 50th birthday almost 10 years ago. I put in the gun safe and never took it to shoot. My taste in recreational shooting has changed over the years. Now, I prefer just to keep sharp plinking away with .22 rifles or with one of my Enfields or Mausers. I delivered it to a local gun shop to sell on consignment. It's doubled in value, so I'll make a good buck on it. I threw in one 5 round magazine and seven 20 round mags. In addition, the new buyer will get a steel ammo box filled with 180 7.62x51 NATO rounds on a linked belt (the new owner will have to break down the links). The dealer has strict instructions as to whom not to sell it to, instant check or not. If the buyer has more tattoos than teeth, steer him to something else....
This is the CETME...
(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/10968_1291743219048_1363423_n.jpg)
After it does sell (no rush on my part), I will buy a Henry Repeating Arms Goldenboy in .22 caliber. I own several lever guns, and these are always my favorites. A little old west heritage, and the good looks of a lever gun have always been appealing to me. The Henry is probably the best made lever action rifle manufactured anywhere. They are tack drivers too. Another advantage is that I can spend a leisurely afternoon at the range shooting hundreds of rounds and not spend more than $20. That CETME can burn through $10 in ammo every 10 seconds if you do rapid fire...
Here's the Henry Goldenboy...
(http://homesteadfirearms.com/cart2/cartimages/product/h004d2-gbdeluxe2.jpg)
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Kill them all and let God take care of the rest . What I always say (!)
I see what your saying WiD . I use to shoot all the time like every day now that I have to count every dollar Every tim.e I go shoot I count the money I spend on a round . I shoot comp for 20 year's but back then I made good money now every time I pull the trigger I think there's a 2 buck round so I don't shoot all the time like I use too . I made dam goood money growing up and never give it a thought untill I got old (50) . So you young farts get it while the getting is goog like I did .
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... get all freaked out by the idea of having to wait for more than 15 minutes for food at what we would consider a real restaurant ...
:rofl
(from plenty of experience dining in france, italy and switzerland with our US cousins. cracks me up every time :D)
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Yes, every other place in the world is very jealous of America :aok
Your country and your citizens are not a joke to the rest of the world whatsoever
Ahhh that sounds like jealousy. We should send all your countrymen back that chose to move here.... of course then we'd have to send back all the folks from the other countries.
Each country has their good and bad sides. Some moreso than others.
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Yeah Shuffler I'm glad I live in Mississippi from what I read here .
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Yeah Shuffler I'm glad I live in Mississippi from what I read here .
The land of Nathan Bedford Forrest. Absolutely brilliant general. Also I love how you still have the Confederate flag on your state flag. :aok
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It's also the poorest, fattest and arguably one of the dumbest states in the Union. Forrest was also the founder of the KKK, so not sure he is much of a bright spot.
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It's also the poorest, fattest and arguably one of the dumbest states in the Union. Forrest was also the founder of the KKK, so not sure he is much of a bright spot.
I'm talking about his performance as a general during the Civil War, which was absolutely genius and gave life to mobile warfare. The best cavalry commander of the entire war, for me.
You're right, his involvement with the KKK is deplorable. There have been reports though that said he strongly disagreed with the way the KKK became highly militant before he died, though.
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I like Jeb Stuart personally, but to each his own.
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I like Jeb Stuart personally, but to each his own.
He was great, too. A real leader and a master of scouting and reconnaissance. Even efficiently commanded Stonewall Jackson's corps temporarily when Jackson was wounded at Chancellorsville. But his love for flair and fame cost Lee at Gettysburg when he left him blind and almost stumbling right into the Union army.
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It's also the poorest, fattest and arguably one of the dumbest states in the Union.
and up against pretty stiff competition for that honour ;)
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A few days ago I made the decision to sell my unused (as in never fired) CETME 58 rifle. My wife gave it to me for my 50th birthday almost 10 years ago. I put in the gun safe and never took it to shoot. My taste in recreational shooting has changed over the years. Now, I prefer just to keep sharp plinking away with .22 rifles or with one of my Enfields or Mausers. I delivered it to a local gun shop to sell on consignment. It's doubled in value, so I'll make a good buck on it. I threw in one 5 round magazine and seven 20 round mags. In addition, the new buyer will get a steel ammo box filled with 180 7.62x51 NATO rounds on a linked belt (the new owner will have to break down the links). The dealer has strict instructions as to whom not to sell it to, instant check or not. If the buyer has more tattoos than teeth, steer him to something else....
This is the CETME...
(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/10968_1291743219048_1363423_n.jpg)
After it does sell (no rush on my part), I will buy a Henry Repeating Arms Goldenboy in .22 caliber. I own several lever guns, and these are always my favorites. A little old west heritage, and the good looks of a lever gun have always been appealing to me. The Henry is probably the best made lever action rifle manufactured anywhere. They are tack drivers too. Another advantage is that I can spend a leisurely afternoon at the range shooting hundreds of rounds and not spend more than $20. That CETME can burn through $10 in ammo every 10 seconds if you do rapid fire...
Here's the Henry Goldenboy...
(http://homesteadfirearms.com/cart2/cartimages/product/h004d2-gbdeluxe2.jpg)
:mad: :mad: :mad:
there some discrimination for ya :aok
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There seems to be a resentment for the USA and OUR culture being the cause of the worlds woes.
While I don't share Mr. Coombz's hobby of 'worrying rednecks', or whatever we could call it, yes there is Slate, a general underlying resentment of aspects of the culture of the USA and from many perspectives the second part of your statement true. It is also a unique feature of your culture (for the division of cultures you are in) that the reasons for this are obscured from you, and cause you great offence when discussed by 'foreigners', and make you react as if the world is ungrateful to you, and make you in turn even more nationalistic in response. This is why it is difficult to discuss these issues with you.
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Yes, every other place in the world is very jealous of America :aok
Your country and your citizens are not a joke to the rest of the world whatsoever
Yep, just like every other country dont make fun of other countries? yet ANOTHER sterotypical statement :aok Not that you will ever learn to be civil when hiding at the bottom of the world.
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I dont think coombzy knows what hes talking about. Wisconsin is the fattest state. And the fat this is all part of the NWO plan. Get us fat get us lazy get us unarmed and get us in the camps. They are using the dumb them down and lead tthe around by the nose tactic(sheeple) in the UK.
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While I don't share Mr. Coombz's hobby of 'worrying rednecks', or whatever we could call it, yes there is Slate, a general underlying resentment of aspects of the culture of the USA and from many perspectives the second part of your statement true. It is also a unique feature of your culture (for the division of cultures you are in) that the reasons for this are obscured from you, and cause you great offence when discussed by 'foreigners', and make you react as if the world is ungrateful to you, and make you in turn even more nationalistic in response. This is why it is difficult to discuss these issues with you.
In other words (http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/044/778/hatersgonnacat.jpg?1318992465)
and Americans are blinded to the reason why by our culture. But Rejoice America in 50 years we can join the rest of the hate squad in slamming the Chinese!
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Not that Shida is wrong as Im sure that most people traveling over seas are wealthier, white color and perhaps used to acertain level of comfort so when they go to Europe and they are suprised that everything over there for the most part is older and perhaps outdated.(they dont recognize the word 'Rustic' for what it relaly means) so they complain and get haughty and portay us in a negitive light.
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In other words (http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/044/778/hatersgonnacat.jpg?1318992465)
and Americans are blinded to the reason why by our culture. But Rejoice America in 50 years we can join the rest of the hate squad in slamming the Chinese!
Well there you go, first reply.
Don't confuse jealousy with resentment, they are quite different things.
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Well there you go, first reply.
Don't confuse jealousy with resentment, they are quite different things.
What do you mean? I cant tell why we are resented. Also To a hater jealousy and resentment infact are the same. Haters gonna hate.(Im using today 'hip' parlance of 'Hater'
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:rofl
(from plenty of experience dining in france, italy and switzerland with our US cousins. cracks me up every time :D)
Don't lump me in that group.
I for one, know that it takes a lot longer to cook a horse-meat steak...
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What do you mean? I cant tell why we are resented. Also To a hater jealousy and resentment infact are the same. Haters gonna hate.(Im using today 'hip' parlance of 'Hater'
' This just illustrates how stereotypes and ignorance have replaced intelligence and knowledge about American culture in most the world. You guys are behind the times more so then ever, catch up with the hip new world will ya.
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:mad: :mad: :mad:
there some discrimination for ya :aok
Everyone sets their own criteria of what is acceptable.
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I'm sorry Nathan60 you've now lost me, it appears you are having a conversation with yourself. Which question did you want me to answer or none at all?
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I'm sorry Nathan60 you've now lost me, it appears you are having a conversation with yourself. Which question did you want me to answer or none at all?
Your reply to my first reply. How did you interpret that? I took it as you thought I was attacking. I then went on to explain what a 'hater' was in further posts. I really do think most People are going off stereotypes in this thread. And if in fact they have first hand knowledge of what they are talking about perhaps the Americans they have run into were not our best and brightest but merely our r more well off and as such used to a certain level of comfort and quality and lack i humility.
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Gun control laws do they work? NO.
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Gun control laws do they work? NO.
Exactly... guns just can't read. :)
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Exactly... guns just can't read. :)
They are a product of thier enviroment.
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And if in fact they have first hand knowledge of what they are talking about perhaps the Americans they have run into were not our best and brightest but merely our r more well off and as such used to a certain level of comfort and quality and lack i humility.
Where are the Americans that represent your 'best and brightest' then? Apparently they don't travel overseas. And they're certainly not on the Aces High forums.
You say we are judging based on stereotypes...but it's hard not to when most posters on here conform perfectly to the most well known and derided stereotype of American citizens.
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SNIP - Words and Stuff
I think that's a little harsh.
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Where are the Americans that represent your 'best and brightest' then? Apparently they don't travel overseas. And they're certainly not on the Aces High forums.
You say we are judging based on stereotypes...but it's hard not to when most posters on here conform perfectly to the most well known and derided stereotype of American citizens.
Our best and brightest rarely take vacations(holiday) we work long hours here. spomething most Europeans now nothing about. 32-35 hrs+ gov't handouts is not a work week.
Prove it
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I think that's a little harsh.
nah hes just trollinh no biggy.
The difference between me and coombzy is my trolls are cheeky and fun his are cruel and tragic.
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Our best and brightest rarely take vacations(holiday) we work long hours here. spomething most Europeans now nothing about. 32-35 hrs+ gov't handouts is not a work week.
Prove it
Not to say that our best and brightest are all working or if your not working your not the best and brightest.
Also bird of a feather and all that , if your hanging out with idiots you should look in the mirror.
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I think that's a little harsh.
Dolby you conform to the worst stereotype of British people, you drink tea and are a true gentleman :old:
HamHawk seems to have been driven into a rage by my tragic trolling, nice triple post mate...shame most of it doesn't make sense. Maybe you could get one of the 'best and brightest' to take time off work to teach you how to write English eh?
You say 'prove it', I assume referring to my comment about posters on this forum conforming to a typical American stereotype, while you yourself are proving it for me with every post :D
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Dolby you conform to the worst stereotype of British people, you drink tea and are a true gentleman :old:
HamHawk seems to have been driven into a rage by my tragic trolling, nice triple post mate...shame most of it doesn't make sense. Maybe you could get one of the 'best and brightest' to take time off work to teach you how to write English eh?
You say 'prove it', I assume referring to my comment about posters on this forum conforming to a typical American stereotype, while you yourself are proving it for me with every post :D
wow wanna talk about a rage LOL your all class coombzy you comfirm byy your own actions the Americans you hang with are probably not a good indication of the rest of us. :aok as I said in my posts my trolls a re cheeky and fun yiurs are just cruel and tragic. If you can't take it don't dish it. tell me please which sterotype I am displaying my good sir? I really think your just throwing stuff at the wall and hoping it sticks :rofl :aok
and I dont speak the Queen's english I speak the presidents American. I earned that rigth when my forefathers smaked yours arouns 200+ years ago.
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tell me please which sterotype I am displaying my good sir? I really think your just throwing stuff at the wall and hoping it sticks
The hilarious irony of it is that you're actually serious when you say this...dear god. Aside from the stereotype of Americans being stupid which you are displaying wantonly, here a few other examples just from the last couple of pages.
we work long hours here. spomething most Europeans now nothing about. 32-35 hrs+ gov't handouts is not a work week.
and I dont speak the Queen's english I speak the presidents American. I earned that rigth when my forefathers smaked yours arouns 200+ years ago.
Not that you will ever learn to be civil when hiding at the bottom of the world.
Also coombzy it was these gun nuts that saved yall twice
Ands some people are just pissy because the sun did indeed set on thier empire
If I had a dollar for every time this kind of stupidity had been used by an American on the internet arguing with someone from another country...
'We saved you all' 'You are just jealous' 'Your small country doesn't matter' and similar statements
...I would be able to pay my AH subscription for the next 20 years :)
You fit the stereotype perfectly HamHawk, sorry. Although I can't see from here whether you have a Confederate flag outside your house hehe
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The hilarious irony of it is that you're actually serious when you say this...dear god. Aside from the stereotype of Americans being stupid which you are displaying wantonly, here a few other examples just from the last couple of pages.
If I had a dollar for every time this kind of stupidity had been used by an American on the internet arguing with someone from another country...
'We saved you all' 'You are just jealous' Your small country doesn't matter' and similar statements
...I would be able to pay my AH subscription for the next 20 years :)
You fit the stereotype perfectly HamHawk, sorry. Although I can't see from here whether you have a Confederate flag outside your house hehe
Nope its in the Garage, also every one of those is a fact. good thing there isn't many people in that pissant country of yours for you to alienate with your copious amount of class and sophistication
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:lol don't be mad, I thought we were just having fun trolling? I obviously touched a nerve.
It's funny, I've had 3 PMs since beginning to post in this thread all from guys assuring me that not all Americans are like the vocal majority of this forum. Even your own countrymen are embarrassed by you it seems.
edit: Since we keep wandering off gun control and into personal attacks (and I'm sure I'm not entirely innocent) I'll try to stay away from this thread from now on. It has been fun though :) thanks
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:lol don't be mad, I thought we were just having fun trolling? I obviously touched a nerve.
It's funny, I've had 3 PMs since beginning to post in this thread all from guys assuring me that not all Americans are like the vocal majority of this forum. Even your own countrymen are embarrassed by you it seems.
edit: Since we keep wandering off gun control and into personal attacks (and I'm sure I'm not entirely innocent) I'll try to stay away from this thread from now on. It has been fun though :) thanks
Im not the vocal mahjority in fact I have not vocalised anything in this thread, also dont try to self prohject your rage onto me. If you can't swim with the big boys go back to the kiddy pool. I have also gotten about 89 pm's from your excountry men for twisting your nose so easily. I will show you mine if you show me yours(I mean pm's) Also I have yet to make a personal attck pleae pprovide mor eproof of said attack.
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Coombzy I see the future
You are ignoring this user. Show me the post.
And it is blissfull
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I also have similar PMs regarding the Operation Market Garden thread.
Nathan60 I don't know how old you are, but you seem like a nice young man, full of beans, a bit misguided as to how things work outside of America, and a bit flippant towards the British, but that's okay we're used to that.
The discussion we touched on is broad and difficult & I think that perhaps on reflection these forums are not the place for it. If I may proffer some advice, be critical of what you're told always, cross check information and try to be conscious of things at a level above cultural or nationalistic compartments. Distinguish between agenda, subjective perception and fact, and realise the latter is rare and hard to distinguish.
All the best, nrshida :salute
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Coombzy I see the future
And it is blissfull
I dont think the gjuy that though"Mandora" was funny or deserved would ignore someone. Also you missed a really funny joke at your expense then yetserday Dolby.
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I also have similar PMs regarding the Operation Market Garden thread.
Nathan60 I don't know how old you are, but you seem like a nice young man, full of beans, a bit misguided as to how things work outside of America, and a bit flippant towards the British, but that's okay we're used to that.
The discussion we touched on is broad and difficult & I think that perhaps on reflection these forums are not the place for it. If I may proffer some advice, be critical of what you're told always, cross check information and try to be conscious of things at a level above cultural or nationalistic compartments. Distinguish between agenda, subjective perception and fact, and realise the latter is rare and hard to distinguish.
All the best, nrshida :salute
Actually I just jump into the threads that long ago stopped making sense like this or the 'other one' one I was agreeing with you but you did not read it correctly I guess. I then went on to explain where your error was and I was actually gonna quote your jealousy vs. resnetmen quote to combzy but forgot.
I went back and looked becaus eI think it was the Unperk the f4u thread(haters gonna hate) you and I had a discussion in Shida not the Market Garden one and in fact I only have 1 post in market garden. In short you misunderstood a satrical reply in the F4u-4 thread to a guy being an idiot in a decent thrread. coombzy simply got what he dished out returned to him and cant take it.
Actually I went back and looked at the market garden thred and Shida you and Engfnder were argueming not me. I guess some people have difficulty telling satire from the real deal. I will note however you Brits do infact seem to spend awful lot of toime being snarky towards Americans and I know its a 2way street there so yes I am flippant tpo those that are flippant in themselves.
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2 things...
1) Bad examples, as most people didn't agree and engaged/engage in civil disobedience, even law enforcement regularly broke the rules (esp with prohibition). If you look at my initial post, I never said all guns should be illegal, just that there should be rules, esp around full auto ones (which are highly regulated today).
2) Yes, econ 101, supply always meets demand, rise the price high enough and its not a viable option for most criminals.
How do you "RAISE" the price of 3rd world manufactured AK's & SKS's smuggled and bought for $45 in any dirt hole around the world? :ahand
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Reading the extremely naive & ignorant statements made on here is sure an education on how carefully the media has groomed & educated the liberal minds.... :noid :ahand :neener:
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Where are the Americans that represent your 'best and brightest' then? Apparently they don't travel overseas. And they're certainly not on the Aces High forums.
You say we are judging based on stereotypes...but it's hard not to when most posters on here conform perfectly to the most well known and derided stereotype of American citizens.
Trolling tool. You reached a little far on that one.
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How do you "RAISE" the price of 3rd world manufactured AK's & SKS's smuggled and bought for $45 in any dirt hole around the world? :ahand
really for 45 bucks? and I bet the bullets are free too. how in the heck do the arms dealers of the world stay in business. take 1000 ak47's to a dirt hole and sell them for $45,000.
semp
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really for 45 bucks? and I bet the bullets are free too. how in the heck do the arms dealers of the world stay in business. take 1000 ak47's to a dirt hole and sell them for $45,000.
semp
20+ years ago I knew drug dealers, a lot of them, up close & personal, who told me they bought AK's all the time(Used beat-up shooters) south of the boarder for $45 all day long. It was used to make a point. I never said new, nor did I ever say this was your experience. You should never arbitrarily tell someone their knowledge is BS... I have NO idea what you have seen or heard in your life & vice-versa... :salute
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How do you "RAISE" the price of 3rd world manufactured AK's & SKS's smuggled and bought for $45 in any dirt hole around the world? :ahand
Supply and demand.... IF demand is constant, reduce supply, price goes up.... econ 101. :ahand
Don't want AKs crossing the border, get more/better border control.... fix two birds with one stone :aok
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Actually I just jump into the threads that long ago stopped making sense like this or the 'other one' one I was agreeing with you but you did not read it correctly I guess. I then went on to explain where your error was and I was actually gonna quote your jealousy vs. resnetmen quote to combzy but forgot.
I went back and looked becaus eI think it was the Unperk the f4u thread(haters gonna hate) you and I had a discussion in Shida not the Market Garden one and in fact I only have 1 post in market garden. In short you misunderstood a satrical reply in the F4u-4 thread to a guy being an idiot in a decent thrread. coombzy simply got what he dished out returned to him and cant take it.
Actually I went back and looked at the market garden thred and Shida you and Engfnder were argueming not me. I guess some people have difficulty telling satire from the real deal. I will note however you Brits do infact seem to spend awful lot of toime being snarky towards Americans and I know its a 2way street there so yes I am flippant tpo those that are flippant in themselves.
No more sugar for you young man :old:
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Everyone sets their own criteria of what is acceptable.
that is true, does not change the fact that just because someone has tatts, it automatically makes them a bad person, I have been discriminated for my ink so many times....... it gets quite old.
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that is true, does not change the fact that just because someone has tatts, it automatically makes them a bad person, I have been discriminated for my ink so many times....... it gets quite old.
It doesn't matter if one agrees or not, but each society has a set of norms. When an individual decides to step outside of what is consider normal, they will be looked upon differently. If one wishes to set themselves outside of the norm, then they should expect a reaction. Now don't get me wrong, I have a tattoo myself, and I could care less how much ink someone puts on their body, but anyone going to the extreme should expect a reaction from those who consider themselves in the norm. Right or wrong it is just basic human behavior within a society. Classic example is Jane Elliott's Blue Eyes - Brown Eyes experiment.
Fred
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My father told me to shoot first and ask question later and it's worked at 51 years of age living in the number one redneck state there is .
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your original quote:
How do you "RAISE" the price of 3rd world manufactured AK's & SKS's smuggled and bought for $45 in any dirt hole around the world? :ahand
20+ years ago I knew drug dealers, a lot of them, up close & personal, who told me they bought AK's all the time(Used beat-up shooters) south of the boarder for $45 all day long. It was used to make a point. I never said new, nor did I ever say this was your experience. You should never arbitrarily tell someone their knowledge is BS... I have NO idea what you have seen or heard in your life & vice-versa... :salute
sorry I didnt know you were an expert in gun prices all over the world as you claimed that you can buy one for that price in every crap hole. see 20+ years ago I lived south of the border and for 45 bucks you could get a .22 handgun. an ak47 was a premium gun back new or old and sure as heck wasnt going for 45 bucks then and sure as hell cannot be bought for 45 bucks now.
there's places where ak47's are plentiful but that is not the case "any dirt hole around the world" as you claim.
semp
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It doesn't matter if one agrees or not, but each society has a set of norms. When an individual decides to step outside of what is consider normal, they will be looked upon differently. If one wishes to set themselves outside of the norm, then they should expect a reaction. Now don't get me wrong, I have a tattoo myself, and I could care less how much ink someone puts on their body, but anyone going to the extreme should expect a reaction from those who consider themselves in the norm. Right or wrong it is just basic human behavior within a society. Classic example is Jane Elliott's Blue Eyes - Brown Eyes experiment.
Fred
"you laugh at me because I am different....I laugh at you because you are all the same."
not directed at you bm just a great quote :aok
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:mad: :mad: :mad:
there some discrimination for ya :aok
LOLOL Ink, we know you have more teeth than tattoos....
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LOLOL Ink, we know you have more teeth than tattoos....
:neener:
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Predjudice is just that, pre judging, my father went into a property wearing his black overalls and gloves, the first person who saw him jumped and said "oh thank god, for a second I thought you were a biker!". :bhead
Some people get tattoo's specifically in order to illicit this kind of response, same way that UK punk movement dyed their barnetts pink and pierced their fisogs in the 80's.
Others have a genuine love of tattoo's and are totally ambivalent about anyone else's perceptions of them.
I have not a single spot of ink anywhere on my body, you cannot after all improve on perfection :banana:
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This is untrue don't listen. Danny has a tattoo of himself all over only at 110% larger so he looks bigger. :old:
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Gun control means using both hands and yeah it works .
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This is untrue don't listen. Danny has a tattoo of himself all over only at 110% larger so he looks bigger. :old:
:rofl
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No more sugar for you young man :old:
More fish oil for you gramps it will help with the memory! Its not the sugars fault its the coffee!
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More fish oil for you gramps it will help with the memory! Its not the sugars fault its the coffee!
My memory is faultless, why I remember the time when you were in a nappy. Last month! :old:
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My memory is faultless, why I remember the time when you were in a nappy. Last month! :old:
I am in a nappy most days after work Im getting older so I need a 1-2 hour nap to make it to prome time to watch here come honey boo boo.
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I am in a nappy most days after work Im getting older so I need a 1-2 hour nap to make it to prome time to watch here come honey boo boo.
:rofl
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This is untrue don't listen. Danny has a tattoo of himself all over only at 110% larger so he looks bigger. :old:
:rofl
Predjudice is just that, pre judging, my father went into a property wearing his black overalls and gloves, the first person who saw him jumped and said "oh thank god, for a second I thought you were a biker!". :bhead
Some people get tattoo's specifically in order to illicit this kind of response, same way that UK punk movement dyed their barnetts pink and pierced their fisogs in the 80's.
Others have a genuine love of tattoo's and are totally ambivalent about anyone else's perceptions of them.
I have not a single spot of ink anywhere on my body, you cannot after all improve on perfection :banana:
:rofl
I have been drawing since I could hold a pencil, to me they are living artwork, the only art that lives, breaths, loves.....(besides being locked up it was the one thing that could not be taken from me....I did do 100+ days in the "hole" for them though:-)
but now they are a huge fad and it just pisses me off, tattoos are not for everyone.......thats why I stepped away from doing tattoos as a career and now only tattoo family and friends/old clients.
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but now they are a huge fad and it just pisses me off, tattoos are not for everyone.......thats why I stepped away from doing tattoos as a career and now only tattoo family and friends/old clients.
Budy, ride the fad and capitalize off of it... its a huge opportunity...and it wont last forever...
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Budy, ride the fad and capitalize off of it... its a huge opportunity...and it wont last forever...
thats what people would say when an 18 year old would come in and want a tat on their neck...which I refuse to do.....
I cant do it, it goes against what I am.....money is not as important as my morals.....recently I had a family member want me to tatt their 16 year old......ya....not gonna happen.
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Where's the rudest place you have done a tattoo? :old:
:)
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I cant do it, it goes against what I am.....money is not as important as my morals.....recently I had a family member want me to tatt their 16 year old......ya....not gonna happen.
get a tatoo removal licence... then sell them that service... make money on both ends... :aok
Where's the rudest place you have done a tattoo? :old:
I once knew someone who got a snake tattoo that started right below their belly button and extend down to the 'snake'. He used it as a party gag a few times....
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Where's the rudest place you have done a tattoo? :old:
:)
I did a rose coming out of a girls butthole up on to her back :O about 10 minutes into the tattoo I started smelling a distinct smell that you wont forget....you know that nasty have had sex 30 times and didn't shower smell....it was the worst thing I have ever had to deal with when it comes to tattooing people....the guy that pissed him self when he passed out was pretty bad to....although that made me laugh.
get a tatoo removal licence... then sell them that service... make money on both ends... :aok
I once knew someone who got a snake tattoo that started right below their belly button and extend down to the 'snake'. He used it as a party gag a few times....
I tattooed my own donut...... was quite interesting :lol felt like I was being tattooed over my whole body :(
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:)
I fell in hole once, but thats another story :old:
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:)
I fell in hole once, but thats another story :old:
:rofl
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My memory is faultless, why I remember the time when you were in a nappy. Last month! :old:
That may be for now but in a few months you will forget this post and need nappies for oldies.
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That may be for now but in a few months you will forget this post and need nappies for oldies.
Do I know you? :old:
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Do I know you? :old:
Hell I dont know all you old guys look alike.
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:rofl
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Nice, talking body art...... Body suit is better then all.. My tats have real deep meaning, they are for my eyes only.. I dont respect punks who write all over their bodies to fit in or to make them selves think they are "hardcore"...
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Nice, talking body art...... Body suit is better then all.. My tats have real deep meaning, they are for my eyes only.. I dont respect punks who write all over their bodies to fit in or to make them selves think they are "hardcore"...
:aok
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your original quote:
sorry I didnt know you were an expert in gun prices all over the world as you claimed that you can buy one for that price in every crap hole. see 20+ years ago I lived south of the border and for 45 bucks you could get a .22 handgun. an ak47 was a premium gun back new or old and sure as heck wasnt going for 45 bucks then and sure as hell cannot be bought for 45 bucks now.
there's places where ak47's are plentiful but that is not the case "any dirt hole around the world" as you claim.
semp
Whatever...quit picking at it & let it go. Neither of us really care about it enough to argue. I have my opinion based on what I know/knew you have yours & that's OK, isn't it? :old:
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Whatever...quit picking at it & let it go. Neither of us really care about it enough to argue. I have my opinion based on what I know/knew you have yours & that's OK, isn't it? :old:
If you have an opinion that isn't his, you're wrong and he is going to crucify you.
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(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/297857_489968154347687_1861456824_n.jpg)
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:rofl
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Alfamega says you can not control the gunz
(http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t461/ALFAMEGA51/014.jpg)
Ok last one dont wanna kill it.
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Alfamega's head and shoulders are way too small :old:
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In answer to the op, no, not at all. Two young, unarmed female officers were killed in the line in Manchester today.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19635239
You have police officers that unarmed. What an absolute disgrace. Any private citizen in America that was concealed carrying then would have been more suited to deal with that situation.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19635239
You have police officers that unarmed. What an absolute disgrace. Any private citizen in America that was concealed carrying then would have been more suited to deal with that situation.
I served for 6 years as a bobby. Only once did I feel the need for a firearm in that time. 80% + of UK police are not armed. Most don't want to be. I chose to specialise elsewhere than in firearms, but I think the time is nigh for arming British officers.
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I served for 6 years as a bobby. Only once did I feel the need for a firearm in that time. 80% + of UK police are not armed. Most don't want to be. I chose to specialise elsewhere than in firearms, but I think the time is nigh for arming British officers.
I salute you for your service Danny. But don't incidents like this just highlight how illogical it is for police officers to not be armed? Isn't it depressing to think that, in your words, 80% of UK police are outmatched by a criminal that has a handgun?
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I salute you for your service Danny. But don't incidents like this just highlight how illogical it is for police officers to not be armed? Isn't it depressing to think that, in your words, 80% of UK police are outmatched by a criminal that has a handgun?
Like I said, in 6 years and a couple of hundred arrests I felt the need for a firearm once. ThT was not a gouy with a gun, but a guy with a knife and a hiv infected syringe. I dont think that all British cops should be armed with off duty weapons and all the paraphernalia of US police. The frontline officers should have handguns and tasers however. I think the time has arrived. And the most draconian gun control laws have accomplished nothing but an increase in gun crime using illegal weapons
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Like I said, in 6 years and a couple of hundred arrests I felt the need for a firearm once. ThT was not a gouy with a gun, but a guy with a knife and a hiv infected syringe. I dont think that all British cops should be armed with off duty weapons and all the paraphernalia of US police. The frontline officers should have handguns and tasers however. I think the time has arrived. And the most draconian gun control laws have accomplished nothing but an increase in gun crime using illegal weapons
.
Such as the one that happened this weekend around here.
http://www.timesherald.com/article/20120917/NEWS01/120919600/death-of-officer-brad-fox-sparks-support-from-montgomery-county-police-departments (http://www.timesherald.com/article/20120917/NEWS01/120919600/death-of-officer-brad-fox-sparks-support-from-montgomery-county-police-departments)
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interwebz fart
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.
Such as the one that happened this weekend around here.
http://www.timesherald.com/article/20120917/NEWS01/120919600/death-of-officer-brad-fox-sparks-support-from-montgomery-county-police-departments (http://www.timesherald.com/article/20120917/NEWS01/120919600/death-of-officer-brad-fox-sparks-support-from-montgomery-county-police-departments)
It's another horribly tragic death of some poor guy who left the house to do dsome good and never made it home again. Its worth noting that this guy was trained and armed however and suffered the same fate :salute
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It's another horribly tragic death of some poor guy who left the house to do dsome good and never made it home again. Its worth noting that this guy was trained and armed however and suffered the same fate :salute
It is a shame.
His K-9 partner has not stopped "pining" for him as of yet. He keeps looking for him to come back. :cry
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Fuel for the fire (or debate) :)
A man with an axe attacked children at a daycare center in southwestern China, killing three and injuring 13 others.
The official Xinhua News Agency said the man in Guangxi province burst into the center Friday afternoon and attacked the children with his axe.
A police officer in Pingnan county where the attack happened says the assailant has been caught. The officer would only give his surname, Lin, and said he did not have any other details.
China has experienced a string of rampage attacks at schools, retirement homes and on city streets that have left dozens dead and scores more wounded since the start of 2010.
The attacks have prompted calls for more attention to mental illnesses and concern over rising stress in Chinese societ
Crazy people will find a way to kill, one way or another.
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"Guns only have two enemies , rust and politicians."
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*bump*
A 12-year-old girl, at home alone, shoots an intruder who broke into her family's house.
Tune in to WCTV Eyewitness News at 11 for the details.
http://www.wctv.tv
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"Guns only have two enemies , rust and politicians."
:aok
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*bump*
A 12-year-old girl, at home alone, shoots an intruder who broke into her family's house.
Tune in to WCTV Eyewitness News at 11 for the details.
http://www.wctv.tv
:aok
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*bump*
A 12-year-old girl, at home alone, shoots an intruder who broke into her family's house.
Tune in to WCTV Eyewitness News at 11 for the details.
http://www.wctv.tv
where's the story?
semp
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Uh, it's in the link in the post there Semp...... or it would be if the person making the link had happened to link to the story instead of just the TV website. :huh
Here is another link and I did check it to make sure it works. :D
http://www.kxii.com/home/headlines/Twelve-year-old-Bryan-Co-girl-shoots-home-intruder--174678431.html
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Ice cream reward for the little girl :aok
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Why did they airlift the criminal?
They should have not bothered and donated the cost of the airlift to a charity :old:
I presume the criminal was starving to death and wanted to feed his family that why he was breaking the law :old:
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I presume the criminal was starving to death and wanted to feed his family that why he was breaking the law :old:
The girl would have well with a nice chianti. thuthuthuthuthu
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Uh, it's in the link in the post there Semp...... or it would be if the person making the link had happened to link to the story instead of just the TV website. :huh
Here is another link and I did check it to make sure it works. :D
http://www.kxii.com/home/headlines/Twelve-year-old-Bryan-Co-girl-shoots-home-intruder--174678431.html
i checked the original link it only links to the main page. your links to the actual story. thanks
semp
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Gun control is well intended, but a failure. Those who write the laws do not have the will to enforce them. The last two mass shooters (WV campus and Colorado) were under Psychiatric care. A judge had deterimed the WV shooter to be a threat to himself and others. Under fed law they were to be placed on the "no purchase" register. Liberals and the medical profession want gun control and patient confidentiality. The judge should be charged with chriminal negligence. If a police officer refused to respond to a shooting? People died.
"out here"
SD
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If a police officer refused to respond to a shooting? People died.
When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.
I prefer to be armed, thank you very much.
:salute
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Gun control is well intended, but a failure. Those who write the laws do not have the will to enforce them. The last two mass shooters (WV campus and Colorado) were under Psychiatric care. A judge had deterimed the WV shooter to be a threat to himself and others. Under fed law they were to be placed on the "no purchase" register. Liberals and the medical profession want gun control and patient confidentiality. The judge should be charged with chriminal negligence. If a police officer refused to respond to a shooting? People died.
"out here"
SD
psychiatric care is a very lose term. a good portion of the population sees either a therapist or a psychiatrist for one reason or another. if they were all placed on the registry pretty soon 1/2 the population would be unable to buy arms or those who were afraid to be on the registry would just stop seeing their doctor, which would be a bad thing.
semp
semp
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those who were afraid to be on the registry would just stop seeing their doctor, which would be a bad thing.
This is a very valid argument.
The key is to less regulation. In my opinion open carry should be encouraged in all states. Most murderers are wussies, and would think twice if they knew half of the people in the store they're about to shoot up are armed.
Unless of course the killers end-game is designed to result in his/her own death. Suicide by cop anyone?
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It's another horribly tragic death of some poor guy who left the house to do dsome good and never made it home again. Its worth noting that this guy was trained and armed however and suffered the same fate :salute
Theres no guarantee your going to come home at night even if armed. Your chances are certainly much better, but anything can happen.
Ive seen two patterns in my career regarding armed criminals. First they are much better armed now then they were 30 years ago. Back then most of the guns we took of them were .25s, .22s, .32's and the like. And even if you saw the occasional .360 or .9mm chances were it would be an el cheapo. But now? With the internet and drug money? Bad guys are much better armed and far better informed. Now its rare to take away anything UNDER a 9mm. Most are .40s, '45s, .357s, even exotic stuff like .357 SIGs. And they use far better ammo, as in quality +P JHPs. Its no surprise to see shotguns, AKs, SKs, ARs, Techs, all kinda stuff.
The second thing is they have become utterly ruthless. They will shoot at the drop of a hat. Most of all against Police. But just the other day we had a citizen get stuck up, he gave up all his stuff no problem, and then just for the hell of it the BG shot him in the face anyway. Despite being masked. This guy just wanted to shoot somebody. CC legislation has been a huge success. Gun control has been a huge failure. Two things the Liberal/Leftist media and power centers dont want you to know.
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Gun control is well intended, but a failure. Those who write the laws do not have the will to enforce them. The last two mass shooters (WV campus and Colorado) were under Psychiatric care. A judge had deterimed the WV shooter to be a threat to himself and others. Under fed law they were to be placed on the "no purchase" register. Liberals and the medical profession want gun control and patient confidentiality. The judge should be charged with chriminal negligence. If a police officer refused to respond to a shooting? People died.
"out here"
SD
I'm not sure how you can call a 'no purchase register' gun control?
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guns dont kill people
rappers do
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guns dont kill people
rappers do
Only American rappers kill people.
British rappers have horrible aim and thus are only capable of wounding their intended victims.
(http://i385.photobucket.com/albums/oo291/DontWriteGraff/slick-rick.jpg)
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This is a very valid argument.
The key is to less regulation. In my opinion open carry should be encouraged in all states. Most murderers are wussies, and would think twice if they knew half of the people in the store they're about to shoot up are armed.
Unless of course the killers end-game is designed to result in his/her own death. Suicide by cop anyone?
a very good post and I agree 100%............ :aok
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a very good post and I agree 100%............ :aok
Ditto! Now we're getting somewhere logical.
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Ditto! Now we're getting somewhere logical.
i totally agree with you but that is wishful thinking. most of the mass killings are by guys who were law abiding citizens. and dint have a problem getting the guns they wanted. to be honest with you gun laws wont stop you from owning a gun to defend yourself. I double dare anybody to post anybody here how they can be outgunned with guns they can legally own in most situations. that is unless you think that you need a saw for home defense.
semp
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In my opinion open carry should be encouraged in all states.
I can just see ladies walking around with Coco Chanel or Gucci holsters :banana:
What would you carry if money was no object?
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I would carry a gold plated Thompson Machine gun with engraved barrel. :old:
And a notice saying be polite or do one :old:
Your Dutch Shida and wear clogs :)
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I would carry a gold plated Thompson Machine gun with engraved barrel. :old:
Engraved with little pies? :banana:
Your Dutch Shida and wear clogs :)
Just because you live in a barn, doesn't make you a horse :old:
I wear Desert Boots by the way :banana:
I can't decide what I'd carry, I'm on the horns of dilemma over a Glock 29 with a tweed painted frame, a pair of gold-plated Steyr Mannlicher m1905 or a Fosberry painted up in a Union Jack stylee.
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Yes they work perfectly . They get guns out of the hands of law abiding citzens as they are intended to do . They do not make people or property safer in any way . They do however make it much safer for the government to proceed with any action it chooses , without any need for regard of those it governs .
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i totally agree with you but that is wishful thinking. most of the mass killings are by guys who were law abiding citizens. and dint have a problem getting the guns they wanted.
semp
The mass killers of innocent victims are not law abiding citizens. They are, however, cowards who choose to harm the innocent and typically shoot themselves instead of standing accountable for their actions. Some of us choose not to be victims.
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The first gun control law I want to see enforced is a mandatory 5-year prison sentence with no parole for anyone committing a crime with a gun, or in possession of an illegal gun. The law abiding gun owners are not the problem - it is the criminals with the illegal guns. The way I look at it, anyone in possession of an illegal gun is already a felon and needs to be treated like one before he shoots somebody.
That said, you cannot count on the police being there to protect you or your family. I keep a rifle in the house, but truthfully the security system I am counting on is the 3 snarling dogs that you have to face when your silly butt tries to break in.
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The mass killers of innocent victims are not law abiding citizens. They are, however, cowards who choose to harm the innocent and typically shoot themselves instead of standing accountable for their actions. Some of us choose not to be victims.
everybody is a law abiding citizens up until when they start shooting. as far as I know nobody is born a criminal. there arent many people that are criminals that just decided to go on a shooting rampage. most of those going on shooting rampage had no criminal history and a majority of them obtained the guns legally.
semp
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The first gun control law I want to see enforced is a mandatory 5-year prison sentence with no parole for anyone committing a crime with a gun, or in possession of an illegal gun. The law abiding gun owners are not the problem - it is the criminals with the illegal guns. The way I look at it, anyone in possession of an illegal gun is already a felon and needs to be treated like one before he shoots somebody.
That said, you cannot count on the police being there to protect you or your family. I keep a rifle in the house, but truthfully the security system I am counting on is the 3 snarling dogs that you have to face when your silly butt tries to break in.
in the town my shop';s in, average police response time is 15-20 minutes. it is delightfully excessive when necessary, but about 19 minutes too long. it's not their fault though.
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everybody is a law abiding citizens up until when they start shooting. as far as I know nobody is born a criminal. there arent many people that are criminals that just decided to go on a shooting rampage. most of those going on shooting rampage had no criminal history and a majority of them obtained the guns legally.
semp
didn't the colombine shooters steal some of their parents guns?
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didn't the colombine shooters steal some of their parents guns?
The guns used at Columbine were purchased illegally. Everything but the Tech was bought from a gun show by a 3rd party friend and then sold to the two nitwits, "an illegal straw purchase", and the Tech9 was bought by a friend who sold it to one of the nitwits knowing he was to young to legally own the weapon. Another illegal purchase.
I seem to remember one parent of the nitwits that bought them a handgun for legal target practice use. Im not sure if this actually happened or if the handgun was used in the shootings.
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The guns used at Columbine were purchased illegally. Everything but the Tech was bought from a gun show by a 3rd party friend and then sold to the two nitwits, "an illegal straw purchase", and the Tech9 was bought by a friend who sold it to one of the nitwits knowing he was to young to legally own the weapon. Another illegal purchase.
I seem to remember one parent of the nitwits that bought them a handgun for legal target practice use. Im not sure if this actually happened or if the handgun was used in the shootings.
the last line is what i seem to remember reading...that some of them stole their parents guns.....
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everybody is a law abiding citizens up until when they start shooting. as far as I know nobody is born a criminal. there arent many people that are criminals that just decided to go on a shooting rampage. most of those going on shooting rampage had no criminal history and a majority of them obtained the guns legally.
semp
Be a victim. Be a survivor. Your choice.
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everybody is a law abiding citizens up until when they start shooting. as far as I know nobody is born a criminal. there arent many people that are criminals that just decided to go on a shooting rampage. most of those going on shooting rampage had no criminal history and a majority of them obtained the guns legally.
semp
what does the above has to do with your comment?
Be a victim. Be a survivor. Your choice.
and btw I have guns in my house.
semp
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and btw I have guns in my house.
semp
Me too...
Here's a few:
(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/10968_1291743179047_7409864_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/10968_1291743219048_1363423_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/312793_2624005884782_403817816_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/304165_2624006244791_1473414730_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/380865_2627264726251_1683090746_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/22672_1302879457447_2032433_n.jpg)
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Do you have a musket? :)
Nice cushions by the way :)
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Gun control laws don't work. It's simple to prove that point, as ordinary law abiding citizens are only prevented to be able to defend themselves while criminals always have access to weapons. So gun control laws are flawed in principle and implementation.
On top of that, gun control laws is one of the primary tools for a oppressive state to control its citizens. No gun control laws simply means that the state & federal govt can not force their agenda on their people without having to contend with their firepower. Looking at known history of mankind, gun bans have always preceeded the purges and organized killings of citizens by their state.
Government can not grant you a thing, it can only take away from you what was yours to begin with. Gun control laws are perfect examples of that.
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Me too...
Here's a few:
(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/10968_1291743179047_7409864_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/10968_1291743219048_1363423_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/312793_2624005884782_403817816_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/304165_2624006244791_1473414730_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/380865_2627264726251_1683090746_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/22672_1302879457447_2032433_n.jpg)
Love the G3! :aok What a stylish wooden stock. :rock
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My hot tip of the day:
http://jtactical.com/product.php?id=2
M14 going CQB, excellent chassis! Also fits M1A.
(http://jtactical.com/img/product_images/2/thumbnails/5.jpg)
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Made In America By Americans :)
we make wicker chairs in the UK and pies, and Big-macs :)
Guns we are not allowed then because we are soft.
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some nutter just went on a rampage in wales killing women and children by running them down in his white van
any thing can be a weapon...very glad he did not have access to an arsenal of machine guns or things could have been even more horrific
nutters are nutters...
but an hour or two of thinking the wrong thoughts and turning into a nutter can happen to almost anyone...and with a cabinet of guns at your disposal when the black dog descends is scary
glad we don't have loads of firearms in the uk
i do have a shotgun though :D I am a farmer
oh arrrr
<S>
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My hot tip of the day:
http://jtactical.com/product.php?id=2
M14 going CQB, excellent chassis! Also fits M1A.
(http://jtactical.com/img/product_images/2/thumbnails/5.jpg)
Oh... my... God.
Burn that P.O.S. with fire please. The ultimate in tacti-tard kit to ruin your M-14/M1A1 with.
:bhead
EDIT: Why on Earth anyone would ruin this beautiful battle rifle with an abortion like that is beyond me.
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS2ViFjE5haIpNgIXAsfDZ10PHECgFfxwh8LaefV57JuVA8S8wn)
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some nutter just went on a rampage in wales killing women and children by running them down in his white van
any thing can be a weapon...very glad he did not have access to an arsenal of machine guns or things could have been even more horrific
nutters are nutters...
but an hour or two of thinking the wrong thoughts and turning into a nutter can happen to almost anyone...and with a cabinet of guns at your disposal when the black dog descends is scary
glad we don't have loads of firearms in the uk
i do have a shotgun though :D I am a farmer
oh arrrr
<S>
Are you a poor farmer?
I know there are some about :)
What sort of tractor do you have? and can we have a picture of it please :)
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all farmers say they are poor
union requisite point 12
subsection 3.b
paragraph 2..." all ways say times are bad, always offer the opinion you could do better, life is hard for a farmer"
rules are rules
I role with a 70`s style tractor..." times are hard...I cant afford a new one...you dig...?"
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff274/lowerbrook/C92C104F-981B-4800-A76F-637D811AC9F9-1047-000004560BC5942B.jpg)
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That's the nicest Ford I've seen in years. Wouldn't you agree CAP1?
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That is a real tractor :x
I got half a teacake :)
How much is milk now? :)
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My hot tip of the day:
http://jtactical.com/product.php?id=2
M14 going CQB, excellent chassis! Also fits M1A.
(http://jtactical.com/img/product_images/2/thumbnails/5.jpg)
I believe that's the ugliest thing I've ever seen.
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My hot tip of the day:
http://jtactical.com/product.php?id=2
M14 going CQB, excellent chassis! Also fits M1A.
(http://jtactical.com/img/product_images/2/thumbnails/5.jpg)
Looks too short over-all to be legal....?
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Oh... my... God.
Burn that P.O.S. with fire please. The ultimate in tacti-tard kit to ruin your M-14/M1A1 with.
:bhead
EDIT: Why on Earth anyone would ruin this beautiful battle rifle with an abortion like that is beyond me.
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS2ViFjE5haIpNgIXAsfDZ10PHECgFfxwh8LaefV57JuVA8S8wn)
They are both beautiful...one is classic beauty, the other new age beauty...IMO :old:
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That's the nicest Ford I've seen in years. Wouldn't you agree CAP1?
i like this one....
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/ippie1aaa.jpg)
and this one......
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/mustanggt2.jpg)
much better./
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Beauty is one thing, usefulness and function another & don't confuse the two. Controlled, sustained fire with the 7.62 cartridge in the most compact package is what the Rogue chassis provide with the reliability of the proven M14. So what more can you ask for without being a sentimental old tarf?
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Every thing you should need in a small and compact package...but would you hit it?
(http://imageshack.us/a/img268/1746/bridgetthemidgt.jpg)
:D
Just giving you a hard time. There is no doubt in my mind of its functionality. Just a little fun in the mix.
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Gun control laws don't work. It's simple to prove that point, as ordinary law abiding citizens are only prevented to be able to defend themselves while criminals always have access to weapons. So gun control laws are flawed in principle and implementation.
On top of that, gun control laws is one of the primary tools for a oppressive state to control its citizens. No gun control laws simply means that the state & federal govt can not force their agenda on their people without having to contend with their firepower. Looking at known history of mankind, gun bans have always preceeded the purges and organized killings of citizens by their state.
Government can not grant you a thing, it can only take away from you what was yours to begin with. Gun control laws are perfect examples of that.
dood where do you live? I live in california and I can go to the store and buy anything I want short of a machine gun for home defense. and it's no problem at all, I fill out some stupid paperwork pay for it and i can add to the 2 I already own with no problems.
and those who believe the government is out to get them, well I only see two reasons for it. either you owe taxes or are late in your child support, so pay them and they will go away.
and if you think the goverment is about to order a purge and start mass killings then you are fricking nuts and you should not be allowed to own a gun. you seriously should be in the do not fly registry either. heck I see you at the store buying a 1 lb bag of fertilizer for your home garden I would arrest you myself.
semp
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dood where do you live? I live in california and I can go to the store and buy anything I want short of a machine gun for home defense. and it's no problem at all, I fill out some stupid paperwork pay for it and i can add to the 2 I already own with no problems.
and those who believe the government is out to get them, well I only see two reasons for it. either you owe taxes or are late in your child support, so pay them and they will go away.
and if you think the goverment is about to order a purge and start mass killings then you are fricking nuts and you should not be allowed to own a gun. you seriously should be in the do not fly registry either. heck I see you at the store buying a 1 lb bag of fertilizer for your home garden I would arrest you myself.
semp
DOH!
Semp was so close to maintaining rational thought. It appears as if he's slipped over the edge again. Oh well, maybe next time.
<Insert facepalm here>
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DOH!
Semp was so close to maintaining rational thought. It appears as if he's slipped over the edge again. Oh well, maybe next time.
<Insert facepalm here>
seriously melvin? you think the government is planning purges and mass killings? so should we go on the offensive and start blowing up goverment buildings full of women and children?
there's a lot of people who think we should bring back our soldiers and start fighting the terrorist here at home first. we should stop giving aid to others and take care of things here at home, but that is just wishful thinking. the companies that are making billions of dollars off our wars would never allow it.
semp
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seriously melvin? you think the government is planning purges and mass killings? so should we go on the offensive and start blowing up goverment buildings full of women and children?
there's a lot of people who think we should bring back our soldiers and start fighting the terrorist here at home first. we should stop giving aid to others and take care of things here at home, but that is just wishful thinking. the companies that are making billions of dollars off our wars would never allow it.
semp
I think he was more shocked that you live in Kalifornia and felt safe. :D
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dood where do you live? I live in california and I can go to the store and buy anything I want short of a machine gun for home defense. and it's no problem at all, I fill out some stupid paperwork pay for it and i can add to the 2 I already own with no problems.
and those who believe the government is out to get them, well I only see two reasons for it. either you owe taxes or are late in your child support, so pay them and they will go away.
and if you think the goverment is about to order a purge and start mass killings then you are fricking nuts and you should not be allowed to own a gun. you seriously should be in the do not fly registry either. heck I see you at the store buying a 1 lb bag of fertilizer for your home garden I would arrest you myself.
semp
I wonder if anyone said that to the Jews in the 30's and 40's?
Are you planning on going to Sweden to do this?
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http://www.thehour.com/news/nation_and_world/wisconsin-mall-shooting/collection_057b205c-1c4e-11e2-8efe-001a4bcf6878.html
if only those people had taken their assault rifles out shopping with them they wouldn't have been victims :old:
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http://www.thehour.com/news/nation_and_world/wisconsin-mall-shooting/collection_057b205c-1c4e-11e2-8efe-001a4bcf6878.html
if only those people had taken their assault rifles out shopping with them they wouldn't have been victims :old:
:rolleyes: Have you ever heard of concealed carrying Coombz?
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The NRA keep track of some stats that other organizations don't, like how many felonies are thwarted by citizens with guns. These incidents far outnumber the # of people shot per day in the US, but it's never publicized because it doesn't serve the feds disarmament agenda (nor the UNs Agenda 21 for that matter which include a total gun ban for all civilians worldwide).
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:rolleyes: Have you ever heard of concealed carrying Coombz?
:rolleyes: no
The NRA keep track of some stats that other organizations don't, like how many felonies are thwarted by citizens with guns. These incidents far outnumber the # of people shot per day in the US, but it's never publicized because it doesn't serve the feds disarmament agenda (nor the UNs Agenda 21 for that matter which include a total gun ban for all civilians worldwide).
how surprising that NRA stats would show that :rolleyes: Fox News stats show that Romney is going to win the presidential election :aok
NRA folks also claim that mass shootings like this Wisconsin shooter event + the Colorado movie theater massacre are all orchestrated by the government in a big conspiracy to give them a valid excuse to take your guns away :rofl
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NRA folks also claim that mass shootings like this Wisconsin shooter event + the Colorado movie theater massacre are all orchestrated by the government in a big conspiracy to give them a valid excuse to take your guns away :rofl
You are obviously clueless in regards to the NRA.
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NRA folks also claim that mass shootings like this Wisconsin shooter event + the Colorado movie theater massacre are all orchestrated by the government in a big conspiracy to give them a valid excuse to take your guns away :rofl
You should be in Government. You make stuff up just like they do. The NRA has never stated such nonsense.
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NRA folks = meaning supporters and members of the NRA, posters on their forums, people with NRA bumper stickers etc ;)
I specifically worded my post to avoid this kind of confusion - if I had meant the NRA organisation I would have just said 'the NRA'...(although I wouldn't have, because obviously they wouldn't be making such ridiculous tinfoil hat allegations, it's just most of their members that are ignorant enough to believe such rubbish)
I guess you guys are just perpetually confused when it comes to difficult things like the English language.
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I guess you guys are just perpetually confused when it comes to difficult things like the English language.
I think you were just looking for a window out, just like Heisenberg.
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I specifically worded my post to avoid this kind of confusion - if I had meant the NRA organisation I would have just said 'the NRA'...(although I wouldn't have, because obviously they wouldn't be making such ridiculous tinfoil hat allegations, it's just most of their members that are ignorant enough to believe such rubbish)
:lol :lol So anti-gun people are so wise and brilliant?
I'm glad you don't live in the US, Coombzy. One less liberal nutjob to worry about. :aok
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I'm not a liberal, I support capital punishment and think they should bring back the cane in schools :old: And that's just for starters...I would also be in favour of surgery to prevent a good 50-70% of the population (the lower classes of course ;) ) from procreating
I just like making fun of gun nuts, that's all. The fact that you can continue to bleat on about how much safer America is because of all the guns in the face of the constantly rising death toll of innocent people is hilarious to me.
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Don't mind coombzy, he seems like an ok guy underneath it all.
Just do what I do, sit back and laugh when a foreign national decides to pipe up about issues he/she has no tangible understanding of.
:cheers:
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I rarely ignore anyone who cannot put together a coherent argument against owning a gun other than "Guns kill people'. So do cars, beer, carelessness and cigarettes. Walking out your front door is one of the most dangerous things you can do, should leaving ones house be illegal as well?
When one writes NRA folks, that leads the reader to believe you are speaking of the people in the NRA, not every nutjob on the interwebs who can post on the NRA site. So no you did not word your post to avoid any confusion, you wrote exactly what you meant. Even in your feeble attempt to back out of your statement you lumped NRA members with non NRA members. So which is it then? Perhaps you are perpetually confused by things like the English language and critical thinking.
NRA folks = meaning supporters and members of the NRA, posters on their forums, people with NRA bumper stickers etc ;)
I specifically worded my post to avoid this kind of confusion - if I had meant the NRA organisation I would have just said 'the NRA'...(although I wouldn't have, because obviously they wouldn't be making such ridiculous tinfoil hat allegations, it's just most of their members that are ignorant enough to believe such rubbish)
I guess you guys are just perpetually confused when it comes to difficult things like the English language.
So you're all for caning school children? And you want to remove a fundamental right of procreation based on some arbitrary standard? I am not a social liberal either but I oppose such ignorance. Keep bleating on about how everything not American is so much better than things American, just shows your lack of tolerance. Coombz put down the shovel you've dug yourself in deep enough. I love it when clueless folk try to seem otherwise.
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So no you did not word your post to avoid any confusion, you wrote exactly what you meant. Even in your feeble attempt to back out of your statement you lumped NRA members with non NRA members. So which is it then?
I didn't back out of anything, all that I did was clarify that me saying 'NRA folks believe X' was obviously not meant to mean that 'the NRA organisation made an official statement saying X'. That would be silly.
I thought it was slightly ambiguous the way I had originally worded my post (before actually posting it), so I went back and changed it to 'NRA folks', but it seems that either that was still too tricky to understand, or more likely, willfully misunderstanding in order to have a good whine about 'libruls' is more fun :)
So you're all for caning school children? And you want to remove a fundamental right of procreation based on some arbitrary standard? I am not a social liberal either but I oppose such ignorance.
Sure, spare the birch and spoil the child and all that. Although, you are kind of putting words into my mouth. I didn't say that "I'm all for caning school children", I said I think the cane should be brought back in schools. Small difference, but your statement implies that I want to see children beaten willy-nilly, whereas I was referring to corporal punishment as a deterrent and discipline enforcement tool.
Also 'some arbitrary standard' are your words as well. I was just making an off hand comment to try and distance myself from the liberal nutjob label, not writing a full on proposal of my hypothetical eugenics program :devil I'm sure I could come up with some pretty good standards
Keep bleating on about how everything not American is so much better than things American
Can you quote anywhere that I've done this? :angel: I doubt it.
Actually now that I think about it, I did point out in another thread that official worldwide quality of living surveys put America pretty far behind the curve, so to speak, with not a single city in the top 10. But that was just refuting someone's incorrect assertion that America was #1 in terms of quality of living, and not me randomly attacking you guys ;)
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I wonder if anyone said that to the Jews in the 30's and 40's?
Are you planning on going to Sweden to do this?
why dont you give examples of warnings of how the government is about to massacre the people in the usa? I would love to hear this one, ask YOU he would love to tell you and give you examples.
semp
The NRA keep track of some stats that other organizations don't, like how many felonies are thwarted by citizens with guns. These incidents far outnumber the # of people shot per day in the US, but it's never publicized because it doesn't serve the feds disarmament agenda (nor the UNs Agenda 21 for that matter which include a total gun ban for all civilians worldwide).
how do they keep track of this? is there an 800 number everybody calls and reports? or do they just do a small study then come up with a big number. kindda like the polls where they will call 1,000 people then make it look like 60% of the population is for this or against that.
I think he was more shocked that you live in Kalifornia and felt safe. :D
I have lived in several states and I have never felt in danger where I have lived. you also notice how most of the mass shootings dont happen in Kalifornia? they happen in the other "safe" states.
semp
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I think he was more shocked that you live in Kalifornia and felt safe. :D
(http://us14.memecdn.com/Falcon-Punch-Gif_o_101261.gif)
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Coombz, I'm a member of the NRA and consider myself part of the organization. I have to say your post and your explanation are both simply insulting. If that is what you think of as humor perhaps you should refrain from humor in the future. You do not do it well at all.
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What's insulting about it? You are not personally responsible for the idiocy of any other NRA members, the same way you're not responsible for mass killings that may be committed by other gun owners. No need to take it personally.
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What's insulting about it? You are not personally responsible for the idiocy of any other NRA members,
Yet you grouped the ENTIRE NRA based on the rants of a few idiots online? :rolleyes:
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Yet you grouped the ENTIRE NRA based on the rants of a few idiots online? :rolleyes:
I am David A. Keene and I'm not sure if I'm a libratarian or a republican, but keep fighting for my agenda children... it serves me well. :aok
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Yet you grouped the ENTIRE NRA based on the rants of a few idiots online? :rolleyes:
and that's why i never mention the nra even though i am a member, the best anti-NRA members are some idiots who think they represent the nra.
semp
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Yet you grouped the ENTIRE NRA based on the rants of a few idiots online? :rolleyes:
Did my post say 'EVERYONE IN THE NRA THINKS X' ?? :headscratch:
No, it didn't
That would be silly :)
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Did my post say 'EVERYONE IN THE NRA THINKS X' ?? :headscratch:
No, it didn't
That would be silly :)
personally i think you should be in that 70% of the population that you so much want to put down that shouldnt procreate.
semp
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why dont you give examples of warnings of how the government is about to massacre the people in the usa? I would love to hear this one, ask YOU he would love to tell you and give you examples.
semp
Is that supposed to be in English, Engrish or was it translated from Spangrish? What warnings am I supposed to give? Your post reflected the fact that you assumed Vortex lived in the states. Fact is, not everyone on this forum lives in the states...
how do they keep track of this? is there an 800 number everybody calls and reports? or do they just do a small study then come up with a big number. kindda like the polls where they will call 1,000 people then make it look like 60% of the population is for this or against that.
Your ignorance really IS limitless, isn't it?
I have lived in several states and I have never felt in danger where I have lived. Except when cops look at you sideways... you also notice how most of the mass shootings dont happen in Kalifornia? they happen in the other "safe" states.
semp
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I'm not sure how you can call a 'no purchase register' gun control?
Agree. per the law if a person is deemed or in the case of the VW shooted ruled by a judge to be a danger the themselves and other, federal law requires they be denied a gun purchase. If the VW shooter had been on the Register he would not have leagaly purchased the guns he used. May or may not have stopped him.
In the case of Colorado, the court has not see the doctors determination, if it speculation.
SD
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psychiatric care is a very lose term. a good portion of the population sees either a therapist or a psychiatrist for one reason or another. if they were all placed on the registry pretty soon 1/2 the population would be unable to buy arms or those who were afraid to be on the registry would just stop seeing their doctor, which would be a bad thing.
semp
semp
Agree,
Federal law requires a therapist or a psychiatrist to act when a patient is a danger to themselve or others. Requires good judgement, as do so much in life. however, when a court orders an individual into treament, because they are a danger to others (VW shooter). the judge is neglgent by not preventing the gun purchase.
SD
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NRA folks = meaning supporters and members of the NRA, posters on their forums, people with NRA bumper stickers etc ;)
I specifically worded my post to avoid this kind of confusion - if I had meant the NRA organisation I would have just said 'the NRA'...(although I wouldn't have, because obviously they wouldn't be making such ridiculous tinfoil hat allegations, it's just most of their members that are ignorant enough to believe such rubbish)
I guess you guys are just perpetually confused when it comes to difficult things like the English language.
The People are the organization. You still come across as clueless.
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Yet you grouped the ENTIRE NRA based on the rants of a few idiots online? :rolleyes:
Which makes me wonder.... are all new zealanders clueless? :rofl
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The NRA keep track of some stats that other organizations don't, like how many felonies are thwarted by citizens with guns.
given how contentious the issue is I dont believe for a minute that the NRA are the only ones analysing the stats on this stuff, I'd guess there are 100s of economics undergrads having a crack at it every year let alone the pros.
anyone bothered reading peer-reviewed papers on gun control stats?
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personally i think you should be in that 70% of the population that you so much want to put down that shouldnt procreate.
semp
says the gibbering alcoholic wreck who tries to get his multiple DUI girlfriend (also a hopeless alcoholic) back on the road so she can endanger more lives
your kind would be top of my list :aok
oh and by the way, I've already procreated, it's too late to stop me :devil
anyone bothered reading peer-reviewed papers on gun control stats?
I've seen a few :) I used to work for a global publishing co, working on production of academic journals in the social sciences and humanities dept. two of the journals I worked on were the Howard Journal of criminal justice and the journal of legal and criminal pyschology. Best part of the job was getting to read interesting articles in those, and other, journals while editing them
the Howard Journal was mostly concerned with what people in Britain were in prison for though, an American or world journal would be much more illuminating for the sort of gun crime stats being discussed in this thread
Which makes me wonder.... are all new zealanders clueless? :rofl
Well, I'm British. So someone here is clearly clueless... :old:
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Step 1. make sarcastic comment about automatic weapons with a recent link to mass shooting
Step 2. mock the poster mentioning an NRA study as a credible source for crime/shooting statistics and point out that many NRA members are gullible idiots (already borne out by mention of NRA study as a credible source :rofl)
Step 3. watch extremely sensitive and defensive NRA members explode in fury
:aok
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Well, I'm British. So someone here is clearly clueless... :old:
I had to go by information you offered.....
So now we ask... "are all British folks so misinformed"?
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Step 1. make sarcastic comment about automatic weapons with a recent link to mass shooting
Step 2. mock the poster mentioning an NRA study as a credible source for crime/shooting statistics and point out that many NRA members are gullible idiots (already borne out by mention of NRA study as a credible source :rofl)
Step 3. watch extremely sensitive and defensive NRA members explode in fury
:aok
So far no one has exploded in anything but laughter at your inane posts.
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I`m a cheesy quaver..... :x
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I`m a cheesy quaver..... :x
Jimmy I heard that you conceal carry your shotgun down the front of your trousers when going out to the shops for milk and Hobnobs :old:
My question is, do you wear a metal chastity belt in order to protect your Crown Jewels in the event of an involuntary discharge?
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Thats not a shotgun baby..but it sure got bang per buck
I do practice long bow on the occasional sunday....
those welsh need to be kept in check
as for the froggies "V"
i do suffer from the occasional discharge...mainly after a curry
its my right to bare arms and bare legs..and to wear flipflops I`m most worried about...
wheres the summer gone...
its a conspiracy to keep us couped up I tell ya...
now pass the tinfoil
C21st is so confusing..
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Longbow eh ;D
I believe batfink has a crossbow
Are all British folks so misinformed?!?!? :rofl
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NRA folks
Just sayin'.
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Gun control laws do they work ?
They worked in 1930's Germany.
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I can just see ladies walking around with Coco Chanel or Gucci holsters :banana:
What would you carry if money was no object?
[/quot
Check out the"Well armed Woman" and other sites for the ladies. They carry cool.
SD
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Gun control laws do they work ?
They worked in 1930's Germany.
1934 German gun control act was nearly Identical and drafted from to write the USA gun control act of 1964....? :furious Nazi's good examples of what to do to your country? :bhead :old:
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1934 German gun control act was nearly Identical and drafted from to write the USA gun control act of 1964....? :furious Nazi's good examples of what to do to your country? :bhead :old:
This... is a good point.
Now here is a interesting future vision (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gy7FVXERKFE), and if you think it's not on the horizon consider the numerous Executive Orders written since WW2. Just one signature from the US president can make the US into a totalitarian state under FEMA which is a organization that already has a independent non-elected administration ready to take over the moment one or several such Executive Order is signed.
Consider that it is a fact, that the US is but ONE step away from becoming the most powerful totalitarian state in the known history of mankind. Does it have to do with your right to own firearms? You bet it does.
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I`m a cheesy quaver..... :x
Fantastic, they do prawn cocktail flavour now, I am to old for change though :old:
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(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t8/uh2214/gun_control_works.jpg)
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(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t8/uh2214/gun_control_works.jpg)
It's true... doesn't mean you can't :rofl ...
:aok
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1934 German gun control act was nearly Identical and drafted from to write the USA gun control act of 1964....? :furious Nazi's good examples of what to do to your country? :bhead :old:
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t8/uh2214/gun_control_works.jpg)
Here it is again if you missed it.
Slate is making exactly the right point with his post:
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t8/uh2214/gun_control_works.jpg)
Gun control works, if you want to protect the government from the people.
It did in Germany.
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^^^^ I want to play with the putty in your avatar. :O ^^^^
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1934 German gun control act was nearly Identical and drafted from to write the USA gun control act of 1964....? :furious Nazi's good examples of what to do to your country? :bhead :old:
Hitler also developed pretty forward thinking programs of environmental safeguards and emissions control, the majority of which have been adopted by modern governments. Not saying he wasnt a meglomaniacal bigotted retard.
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Hitler also developed pretty forward thinking programs of environmental safeguards and emissions control, the majority of which have been adopted by modern governments. Not saying he wasnt a meglomaniacal bigotted retard.
... and the trains ran on time. :huh (Where the heck is the facepalm emoticon?)
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Total firearm related death rate...
USA 10.27 deaths per 100,000 people
England 0.46 deaths per 100,000 people..
.so yes gun control works...
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Hitler also developed pretty forward thinking programs of environmental safeguards and emissions control, the majority of which have been adopted by modern governments. Not saying he wasnt a meglomaniacal bigotted retard.
I read Adolf had flatulence problems if this helps in any way :old:
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Total firearm related death rate...
USA 10.27 deaths per 100,000 people
England 0.46 deaths per 1000,000 people..
.so yes gun control works...
you cant compare US to England. huge population difference. large socioeconomic difference. apples and oranges. people still die in England, they just use knives or bats instead of guns. much more civilized then a gun, especially the blood splatter patterns. make for nice mural's!
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Total firearm related death rate...
USA 10.27 deaths per 100,000 people
England 0.46 deaths per 100,000 people..
.so yes gun control works...
Since you're going to use the crime rate circa 2002, let's interject something a bit more recent.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5712573/UK-is-violent-crime-capital-of-Europe.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5712573/UK-is-violent-crime-capital-of-Europe.html)
But, as the article states, " Researchers admit that comparisons of crime data between countries must be viewed with caution because of differing criminal justice systems and how crimes are reported and measured.
A Home Office spokesperson said: “These figures are misleading. Levels of police recorded crime statistics from different countries are simply not comparable since they are affected by many factors, for example the recording of violent crime in other countries may not include behaviour that we would categorise as violent crime."
There is always spin with crime numbers. Regardless, it seems we all acknowledge that there will always be violent crime in our societies. Try as our police might, they cannot stop everyone in all places. The question then becomes, why would you not want to be allowed to arm yourself?
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Oops
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Total firearm related death rate...
USA 10.27 deaths per 100,000 people
England 0.46 deaths per 100,000 people..
.so yes gun control works...
Can you post knife related and axe related deaths too?
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Your right... I did just lift some toejamapidia "facts"
but we dont have , here in the UK, so many killings with guns per capita as USA so its a good thing we have gun control here , as far as i am concerned..
Now I see that in the USA there are so many guns you might as well arm yourself..everyone else has...
but thankfully we are not there in the UK yet,, thank the lord, and gun control..
Your right they are totally different places with different situations...but yes gun control works ..here in the UK
Knife crime is obviously an issue being 4x more prevalent than gun crime..
guns for show...knives for a pro..(name that film)
lifted some more "interweb Facts"
58 Murders a Year by Firearms in Britain, 8,775 in US
By Juan Cole, Informed Comment
22 July 12
umber of Murders, United States, 2010: 12,996
Number of Murders by Firearms, US, 2010: 8,775
Number of Murders, Britain, 2011*: 638
(Since Britain's population is 1/5 that of US, this is equivalent to 3,095 US murders)
Number of Murders by firearms, Britain, 2011*: 58
(equivalent to 290 US murders)
Number of Murders by crossbow in Britain, 2011*: 2 (sorry no axe numbers..crossbow will have to do )
(equivalent to 10 US murders).
For more on murder by firearms in Britain, see the BBC.
The international comparisons show conclusively that fewer gun owners per capita produce not only fewer murders by firearm, but fewer murders per capita overall. In the case of Britain, firearms murders are 30 times fewer than in the US per capita.
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Gun control laws will work to reduce gun violence, I suppose. It reduces the number of guns available to those that are paying attention to the law. If most of the society obeys the law, it's a simple numbers game.
Gun control laws do not make a society safer. People will still rob, beat, kill, and otherwise plot the demise of those around them. If we can agree on that, all I want is for people to be able to defend themselves as they see fit. Like I've said before in this thread, US case law suggests (and most people would agree) that an individuals safety and security is not for the state to provide. Given that, I'll gladly take a firearm as a way to help provide my own security. :)
I do not care what tool a person is using to harm another. The fact that he's harming others in the first place is much more important. If we can't figure out how to provide Utopia (even Aristotle swung and missed on that :)), then we need to at least allow others to defend themselves.
Personally, I think we should all enjoy the intoxicants provided by mother nature. Then we would all get along. :angel: