Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Boroda on August 07, 2008, 05:21:37 PM
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Right now Georgian forces are bombing Tshinvali using BM-21 Grad. They officially announced hostilities against South Osetia. Russian peacekeeping forces are still not involved, but we'll see.
This is insane. I see a full-scale world crisis beginning.
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My first thought was, "Who's doing what to the Ostwinds now?"
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I see a full-scale world crisis beginning.
Sorry, but that corner of the world is not that important to the rest.
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No but Russia could force their union back into place which would be rather unsettling. My first thought when the wall came down was that Germany would reunite and then there would be another war to come.
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Sorry, but that corner of the world is not that important to the rest.
It's quite important to the US, because it provides military aid to Georgia, and even pays salary to Georgian government...
Caucasus is one of the most vital geopolitical spots. It's again about oil and gas.
Yesterday Georgians promised they will not return fire, 2 hours ago they started hostilities themselves, and now they officially asked Osetins to "cease fire and meet for negotiations", at the same time taking two Osetin villages and using heavy artillery on their capital city...
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Which countries exactly have recognized the independence of South Osetia from Georgia?
The United Nations, European Union, OSCE, Council of the European Union, NATO and most of the countries around the world recognize South Ossetia as part of Georgia. However, the de facto independent republic governed by the secessionist government held a second independence referendum[6] on November 12, 2006, after its first referendum in 1992 was not recognized by the international community as valid.[7] According to the Tskhinvali election authorities, the referendum turned out a majority for independence from Georgia where 99% of South Ossetian voters supported independence and the turnout for the vote was 95%[8] and the referendum was monitored by a team of 34 international observers from Germany, Austria, Poland, Sweden and other countries at 78 polling stations[9]. However, it was not recognized internationally by the UN, European Union, OSCE, NATO and the Russian Federation, given the lack of ethnic Georgian participation and the legality of such referendum without recognition from the central government in Tbilisi.[10] The European Union, OSCE and NATO condemned the referendum. Parallel to the secessionist held referendum and elections, the Ossetian opposition movement (The Salvation Union of South Ossetia) to Kokoity, organised their own elections in which both Georgian and some Ossetian inhabitants of the region voted in favour of Dmitri Sanakoev as the alternative President of South Ossetia.[11] The alternative elections of Sanakoev claimed full support of the ethnic Georgian population. In 2007, Dmitri Sanakoev became the head of the Provisional Administration of South Ossetia.
On July 13, 2007, Georgia set up a state commission, chaired by the Prime Minister Zurab Noghaideli, to develop South Ossetia's autonomous status within the Georgian state. According to the Georgian officials, the status will be elaborated within the framework of "an all-inclusive dialogue" with all the forces and communities within the Ossetian society
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It's quite important to the US, because it provides military aid to Georgia, and even pays salary to Georgian government...
Caucasus is one of the most vital geopolitical spots. It's again about oil and gas.
Yesterday Georgians promised they will not return fire, 2 hours ago they started hostilities themselves, and now they officially asked Osetins to "cease fire and meet for negotiations", at the same time taking two Osetin villages and using heavy artillery on their capital city...
Agreed - that region (Caucasus) is of extreme importance... Look at all the trouble that spawned out of there only a few years ago: The Chechnya Wars... Global Jihad... Moscow Theater Seige... Belsan Massacre... Moscow Apt Bombings and on and on and on... I might be mistaken, but I am under the impression that the Caucasus provides the oil for most of Europe...
I thought things were relatively stable there since Shamil Basayev was killed... last thing we need is more trouble out of that region.
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Yesterday Georgians promised they will not return fire, 2 hours ago they started hostilities themselves,
Apparently that is debatable.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2008/08/200887205352812361.html
"Despite our call for peace and a unilateral ceasefire separatists continued the shelling of Georgian villages," he said.
Mikheil Saakashvili, Georgia's president, had earlier offered an immediate halt to heavy fighting, which had injured at least 21 people on Thursday, and said he had ordered his forces not to return fire if attacked.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/08/07/europe/EU-Georgia-South-Ossetia.php
The South Ossetian separatist government said Tskhinvali and nearby areas came under heavy artillery and mortar shelling from Georgian-controlled territory early Thursday, wounding 18 people. But Georgian authorities said they were forced to retaliate when South Ossetian separatist forces started firing on Georgian troops in the area.
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check out the fireworks (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7548611.stm) :aok
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check out the fireworks (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7548611.stm) :aok
Is it a video of Georgian Grads (BM-21 rocket launchers) fireing at Tskhinval?
Fireworks my ass! This kind of weapons usually leaves nothing but burnt soil...
Do you see the gun elevation at that video? It means they are shooting literally point blank.
Georgian shturmoviks attacked a humanitarian aid convoy from North Osetia. They also bombed distant Osetian villages where women and children were evacuated from the front-line. Russian peace-keeping batallion quarters are under fire, some servicemen wounded and killed. Peacekeepers don't have any heavy weapons according to their status... Our Defense ministry already said we'll support peace-keepers "by all possible means". Putin already said in China that Georgia has to expect retribution for this actions.
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I love the Russian response (paraphrased):
"They are bombing women and children and using artillery on civilian settlements."
De ja vu? Remember Grozny? It's funny to see the Russian government trying to take the moral high ground in the media.
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I love the Russian response (paraphrased):
"They are bombing women and children and using artillery on civilian settlements."
De ja vu? Remember Grozny? It's funny to see the Russian government trying to take the moral high ground in the media.
From what I just read, Russian jets are bombing Goergian cities and towns.
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From what I just read, Russian jets are bombing Goergian cities and towns.
The already "shot down" one Russian plane. LOL! :aok
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I love the Russian response (paraphrased):
"They are bombing women and children and using artillery on civilian settlements."
De ja vu? Remember Grozny? It's funny to see the Russian government trying to take the moral high ground in the media.
Dowding, again the money for the fish.
Grozniy was not a city populated by civilians, your Chehen friends had two weeks for all the non-combatants to leave the city. C'mon teach Russians how to take fortified cities.
I expect Russian reaction on mass-killing of Russian citizens in Osetia to be like this: immediately cutting off electricity, oil and gas supplies to Georgia, bombing Georgian armed forces bases and other military objects, especially SAM sites and airfields, all the things NATO did in Yugoslavia, except bombing civilian industrial objects and schools/hospitals. We also should send Osetin volunteers, supplied with all possible weapons, across the border tunnel to Southern part of Osetia.
Abkhazian army is also deploying it's troops and heavy armament to the DMZ border. I am 100% sure - Georgians can't withstand a war with two opponents.
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WTFG Georgia!
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WTFG Georgia!
Right now brave Gerorgians with their American instructors are already running away to save their sour arses. Russian armed forces entered South Osetia and kicked them out of Tskhinval in about one hour. Georgian tanks and other machinery sent by their NATO friends is burning brightly in Tskhinval's suburbs.
(http://img.lenta.ru/news/2008/08/08/march/picture.jpg)
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I can't believe it!
Air over South Osetia is controlled by VVS. Russian peacekeepers asked Osetins not to cross Georgian-Osetian border, while chasing Georgians.
I wonder if anyone expected anything like this. Unbelievable! WTG Medvedev!
(http://img.lenta.ru/news/2008/08/08/stopsheling/picture.jpg)
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Looks like the Georgians attacked so WTFG russia for helping South Osetia'ns :) Bomb the attacking army to fine powder.
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So far it looks like Osetin militia kicked Gerogians in the butt several 2 hours before Russian tanks reached Tshkhinval. They managed to set up a small Stalingrad for vermins. They still burn Georgian tanks that entered the city.
France Press reported that according to Georgian officials - Georgia will soon declare war on Russia. We are all trembling in fear. This will be a sad end for so-called "independance" of Georgia and a good warning to some other countries. Don't mess up with Russians, and never, I repeat - never even think of killing Russian citizens.
After vermins will declare war on Russia - I want to see Georgian diaspora in Moscow to get interned. They failed to explain their imecilic leaders who studied in the US that they need peace and cooperation with Russia, so they become persona non grata here.
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Georgians must be nuts if they also declare war on Russia. If they are dumb enough to do so just smash their military. :)
I have no sympathy for any nation attacking another, and in this case it looks like the Georgians started. Show them the door and get some valuable weapons testing done in the process. :aok
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VVS bombed Vaziani airbase near Tbilisi. Georgians said that by doing this Russia declared war on Georgia :D
JFYI: Vaziani is a base where American instructors are stationed.
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If Georgia launched attacks from there than wipe it out.
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Georgians must be nuts if they also declare war on Russia. If they are dumb enough to do so just smash their military. :)
I have no sympathy for any nation attacking another, and in this case it looks like the Georgians started. Show them the door and get some valuable weapons testing done in the process. :aok
The whole story of the Georigian wars with South Osetia and Abkhazia is quite interesting. In 1992 Russian marines evacuated Georgian president from Sukhumi, where he got surrounded by Abkhazian militia and was waiting to be captured. Earlier that year Georgian defence minister said that "we'll kill all 100,000 Abkhazs, even if it will cost us a million Georgian lives". Same attitude in Osetia led to another defeat. Now they got aid from the US and NATO, and it looks like they were crazy enough to think that anyone will sign up to save them if they'll start a war.
Georgia was probably the richest Soviet republic, and in a matter of years they organized a civil war, wars with Abkhazia and Osetia, and now they are one of the poorest post-Soviet "states".
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NATO will not do anything to defened Georgia. What they do there is beyond me and hopefully Georgia will never become a member of the alliance. Its big enough as it is and should imo have been abandoned as an alliance the day after the cold war ended.
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From CNN Saakashvili interview:
All day today they've been bombing Georgia from numerous warplanes and specifically targeting (the) civilian population, and we have scores of wounded and dead among (the) civilian population all around the country," Mikhail Saakashvili told CNN in an exclusive interview.
Hearing this from a liar who declared a cease-fire and promised "not to reply to Osetian provocations" , and then boasted Grads shelling a big city full of civilians - it's priceless. Look at the picture below:
(http://img.lenta.ru/articles/2008/08/08/ossetia/picture.jpg)
Grad (BM-21) is a modern "Katyusha", a jet mortar, rocket artillery. I guess you guys understand what it is.
Another update: Georgian invaders were executing Osetins and Russian peacekeepers at the seized outposts. They will pay for that. They can talk about their "ancient culture" as long as they want, but they still are nothing more then prehistoric savages.
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Boroda, are you actually on the front, or are you just parroting balloon reports to us?
If you're wondering what a balloon report is, it's a bunch of thin facts stretched around a lot of hot air. Kinda like the "1000 Marines killed in Diyala" at the opening stage of Iraqi Freedom. Made the news, circulated amongst the troops, but absolutely no truth to it.
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Boroda, are you actually on the front, or are you just parroting balloon reports to us?
If you're wondering what a balloon report is, it's a bunch of thin facts stretched around a lot of hot air. Kinda like the "1000 Marines killed in Diyala" at the opening stage of Iraqi Freedom. Made the news, circulated amongst the troops, but absolutely no truth to it.
I read what CNN reports on the conflict and try to show you what is in Russian media.
I also wonder why US supports and breeds most savage barbaric regimes all over the world.
And I am surprised and happy because finally Russia does something to help it's citizens attacked by another "democratic" mass-murdering regime.
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Just leave Armenia alone. While your at it can you invade and kick the crap out of Turkey.
You owe us on that one....you never helped us in 1918 (@#$@##$ Russians).
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Ukrainian TV reported that Russian Black Sea Fleet is on combat alert, missile cruiser Moskva, frigates Ladniy, Pitliviy and several landing ships with marines and armour are preparing to leave Sevastopol.
At the same time Abkhazia opened the second front, their armed forces are crossing the DMZ towards Ochamchira.
It's getting hotter and hotter.
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I read what CNN reports on the conflict and try to show you what is in Russian media.
That's where you're messing up. CNN is notorious for reporting things that never actually happened.
I also wonder why US supports and breeds most savage barbaric regimes all over the world.
We like giving money to people that share a mutual dislike of certain people. Our problem is we have crappy oversight into what's actually done with the money... like in China during WW2... always comes back to bite us.
And I am surprised and happy because finally Russia does something to help it's citizens attacked by another "democratic" mass-murdering regime.
"Democratic" is the most overused term possible. It doesn't even have to do with politics or ideology. Every craphole warlord on the planet leads the democratic liberation of the peoples freedom for prosperity social love front.
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Just leave Armenia alone. While your at it can you invade and kick the crap out of Turkey.
You owe us on that one....you never helped us in 1918 (@#$@##$ Russians).
1918 Brest treaty is one of the real Bolshevik crimes. Leaving Armenia and returning to 1876 border is rarely mentioned in history books :(
I hope Armenia will stay away from this conflict. War is a horrible thing...
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I read what CNN reports on the conflict and try to show you what is in Russian media.
I also wonder why US supports and breeds most savage barbaric regimes all over the world.
And I am surprised and happy because finally Russia does something to help it's citizens attacked by another "democratic" mass-murdering regime.
I know very little about the region discussed, nor the conflict described.
However a soviet calling someone else barbaric is just freaking priceless! :rofl
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"Democratic" is the most overused term possible. It doesn't even have to do with politics or ideology. Every craphole warlord on the planet leads the democratic liberation of the peoples freedom for prosperity social love front.
You got my point ;)
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1918 Brest treaty sent over a million people to their deaths and a few hundred thousand into Islamic slavery.
Again, kick the crap out of Turkey please.
Go Russia...Keep going, don't stop there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I know very little about the region discussed, nor the conflict described.
However a soviet calling someone else barbaric is just freaking priceless! :rofl
You guys killed 10 times more people in the last 70 years then good old USSR. We just don't like genocidal regimes, that you usually choose to support.
If a report about Russian Navy leaving Sevastopol' is true, combined with Abkhazian involvement it means that in a matter of days or even hours Georgian government will try to escape to the country that pays them salary.
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You get my sympathy on so many issues Boroda and i agree with you on many, but then you blow it with using the wording you use and numbers taken outa nowere. ;)
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Well hooray, the Russians picked another fight
Look like the regional "bully" couldn't wait for an excuse to do so. Yet again.
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Again, kick the crap out of Turkey please.
Go Russia...Keep going, don't stop there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We protect our citizens, that's all, sorry. I don't think we need Georgia to become a part of Russia again...
BTW, if you are from Armenia and can read Russian - here is a South-Osetian news agency: http://www.osradio.ru/
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You guys killed 10 times more people in the last 70 years then good old USSR. We just don't like genocidal regimes, that you usually choose to support.
If a report about Russian Navy leaving Sevastopol' is true, combined with Abkhazian involvement it means that in a matter of days or even hours Georgian government will try to escape to the country that pays them salary.
Oh please, how many died under Stalin? Bah...why confuse you with facts....you sure you aren't Baghdad Bob? I mean really....wow.
Yeah, the regimes you support are just top performers under human rights. China, North Korea, Iran....
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Well hooray, the Russians picked another fight
Look like the regional "bully" couldn't wait for an excuse to do so. Yet again.
Russia is the last country that will want war there in Georgia. But if we turned away this time again - it could be too much for everyone. We protect our citizens, 90% of South Osetians have Russian citizenship.
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Atleast you found a number that is well known and supported.
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Atleast you found a number that is well known and supported.
Now THAT's funny!
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Oh please, how many died under Stalin?
About 4 times less then US killed in Vietnam.
You guys invade a country half a world away for some imaginary reasons, and it's OK, while we protect our own people from aggressors and it's a "no-no".
Keep watching CNN with pathetic reports about Russian invaders. You can't do anything to save your miserable puppets, so better evacuate your military advisors who planned another genocide and STFU.
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Hey Boroda, does it really bother you to be the last die hard communist in the area?
I imagine it must be hard.
You know, to realize the world doesn't revolve around you and all :D
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Hey Boroda, does it really bother you to be the last die hard communist in the area?
I imagine it must be hard.
You know, to realize the world doesn't revolve around you and all :D
What makes you think that I am a communist? "Russian=commie=kill him" - perfect cold war logic.
Your problem is that you think that your opponents are not human, that you have a right to kill in the name of your sacred "democracy" that you worship irrationally. Isn't it strange for you that a planned victim sometimes gives you a big kick in the bellybutton instead of just watching how you and your puppets cut it's throat? Unfair, isn't it? "Bloody Vietnamese, they shot doen poor McCaine, and he suffered sooo much!"
Get real. You are not the only big guy in the neighbourhood, and you can't protect all your sidekicks. This one is already spitting out broken teeth, it's a good lesson for others.
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Georgian president, Saakashvili, shared another pearl of wisdom. He asked United States to join the war on Georgian side (sic!). "Now it's not only Georgia under attack, it's an attack against America and it's values" - he said.
Just curious: how many Americans want another war, this time with Russia, to save mass-murderers who completely destroyed a big city killing thousands last night, carpet-bombing and using rocket artillery against apartment blocks?
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So let me get this straight, the Russians funded the separatist party in Georgia. They provided them with cash and weapons. So when the Georgians confronted them, the Russians jumped in claiming they had been attacked first. That's pretty rich. Hey Boroda I have a bridge in California I'll sell you....cheap.
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So let me get this straight, the Russians funded the separatist party in Georgia. They provided them with cash and weapons. So when the Georgians confronted them, the Russians jumped in claiming they had been attacked first. That's pretty rich. Hey Boroda I have a bridge in California I'll sell you....cheap.
Funded?! Provided with cash and weapons!? What's your source?
Osetins and Abkhazs had Autonomous Republics in Gerorgian SSR. In 1991 Georgians cancelled autonomies and tried to set up their own administrations there, that was followed with armed attacks and genocide of local population. Back in 1992 Russia helped Georgia that was losing that conflicts, as I said - Russian marines literlally saved Georgian president from being captured. Later in the 1990s Georgia gave shelter to Chechen terrorists, supplying and hosting them in Kodori Gorge. And last night they started an assault against South Osetia, burning 6 villages and completely destroying South Osetian capital, Tskhinval. 90% of South Osetians are Russian citizens. SO and Abkhazian population voted several times for separating from Georgia and joining Russian Federation, but Russia insisted on territorial integrity of Georgia. This time Georgian regime went a little bit too far, killing thousands and executing captured Russian peace-keepers.
Keep watching CNN. They tell you the truth, they never lie. Remember evil Saddam and his horrible weapons of mass destruction! :rock
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...and completely destroying South Osetian capital, Tskhinval.
That was quick! Didn't the heroic Russians get there in time?
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This time Georgian regime went a little bit too far, killing thousands and executing captured Russian peace-keepers.
Still waiting on proof of this to hit our news. Only pictures to come out are the same 3 recycled ones. A few launchers with no markings sitting in a random field.... A tank column, and a burning tank... that's it. What are the names of these villages that were leveled? Can they be linked on google earth?
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What makes you think that I am a communist? "Russian=commie=kill him" - perfect cold war logic.
Ummm, maybe it's your avatar?
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...mass-murderers who completely destroyed a big city killing thousands last night, carpet-bombing and using rocket artillery against apartment blocks?
So they have already completely destroyed a big city? In couple of hours?
Riiiiight. :)
Are you making this up (as usual) or are they really claiming that a city is alreadycompletely destroyed in the Russian media (That wouldn't suprise me one bit either, though.)?
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Just curious: how many Americans want another war, this time with Russia, to save mass-murderers who completely destroyed a big city killing thousands last night, carpet-bombing and using rocket artillery against apartment blocks?
Now I'm confused! I thought it was the Russians that completely destroyed Grozny killing thousands, carpet-bombing and using rocket artillery against apartment blocks?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v673/kavkaz5/grozny1.jpg)
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It's quite important to the US, because it provides military aid to Georgia, and even pays salary to Georgian government...
Proof please. Link please. Put up or shut up, otherwise you're just swallowing propoganda that your state controlled TV stations report to you.
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Carpet bombing? Have you looked at the Georgian Air Force? I must have missed those Strategic bombers in their arsenal.
Boroda - you have really out done yourself this time (and that's saying something).
"Thousands dead in huge bombing raid on city" :rofl
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Now I'm confused! I thought it was the Russians that completely destroyed Grozny killing thousands, carpet-bombing and using rocket artillery against apartment blocks?
Apparently they were given 2 weeks warning to vacate - only terrorists remained...
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Funded?! Provided with cash and weapons!? What's your source?
Virtually the only significant economic asset that South Ossetia possesses is control of the Roki Tunnel that links Russia and Georgia, from which the South Ossetian government reportedly obtains as much as a third of its budget by levying customs duties on freight traffic. The separatist officials admitted that Tskhinvali received more than 60 percent of its 2006 budget revenue directly from the Russian government.
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Interesting... Google Maps blanked out Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan.
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This is "win win" for Putin.
It will be an easy victory. They should have no problem kicking Georgias butt, most of all considering the people in SO want nothing to do with Saakashvili. Whom has been raceing at breakneck speed to integrate with NATO in order to shore up support for just such a reality. Putin has been trying hard to provke all this for awhile because he wants to torpedo Georgias integration with the West before it firms up with a full NATO membership.
OK, so now its "on". Putin will get his splendid little war and get huge waves at home, "who doesnt like winning a war"? He will weaken Georgias position across the board, frighten other NATO states that allowing Georgia might draw them into a full scale war with Russia.
But most importantly he will get a stranglehold on the central Asian oil and gas pipeline. Thats what really is at stake here. If Putin can pull off a victory and bring Georgia back into the fold, under Russian influence again, it will strengthen Russias European strangelhold on oil and natural gas. As an added plus conflict in the region will keep energy prices high, which again helps Russia.
Like I said, Putin cant lose here. Clever boy.
And if anyone thinks the Russians are doing this out of concern for the well being of South Osetians??? Well I think you have to generous an outlook on Russian government.
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No worries Boroda. Our idiot Comman"duh" in chief has already brought all of our forces to the point that they couldn't put out an outhouse fire in Mexico, let alone send any type of significant combat force anywhere outside of a thousand miles from the US. U.S. involvement in this will be minimal at most, political pressure to end it before oil prices rise again being most likely. The timing of this little charade should be viewed as most interesting. Georgians may have started it, (as per your russian media....) but I think they may have stolen a page from our playbook.. See "Gulf of Tonkin Incident".
Sad, in any case that it appears that civilian centers are being targetted almost exclusively. It's only been a matter of time before this was going to happen.... the heat has been climbing there for months.
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has already brought all of our forces to the point that they couldn't put out an outhouse fire in Mexico
where do you make this stuff up?
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So they have already completely destroyed a big city? In couple of hours?
Dang, I thought Atlanta was such a nice city too.
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The bottom line is that almost everybody in south ossetia doesn't want to be part of Georgia. People should have the right to self determination, regardless if they are kosovar or ossetian.
Eastern europeans must be the most nationalistic people on the planet. Nationalistic to the point where often in their news sources the word ethnic is often substituted for the word nationality. For them the concepts have been blurred into one. Stupidity of a tragic magnitude.
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Looks like the Georgians attacked so WTFG russia for helping South Osetia'ns :) Bomb the attacking army to fine powder.
Shouldn't they just turn the other cheek?
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where do you make this stuff up?
It's wishful thinking, or ignorance.
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Georgians must be nuts if they also declare war on Russia. If they are dumb enough to do so just smash their military. :)
I have no sympathy for any nation attacking another, and in this case it looks like the Georgians started. Show them the door and get some valuable weapons testing done in the process. :aok
South Osetia is not a country by itself at this point in time. It has been and is trying to break away from Georgia, Georgia is resisting those efforts.
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The bottom line is that almost everybody in south ossetia doesn't want to be part of Georgia. People should have the right to self determination, regardless if they are kosovar or ossetian.
The last vote on independence in that area, very few Georgians participated in the vote, hence why South Osetia's independence hasn't been recognized.
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Just curious: how many Americans want another war, this time with Russia, to save mass-murderers who completely destroyed a big city killing thousands last night, carpet-bombing and using rocket artillery against apartment blocks?
Let's see some pictures of that city that got completely destroyed. Let's also see some pictures of the Georgian bombers that are capable of carpet bombing.
Btw, the pictures of the Georgian tanks you posted sure look like Soviet built tanks to me and not M-60s or M-1s. More bogus crap from you.
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Actually the bulk of Georgian gear would be inherited ex-Soviet hardware. T-72s, Flankers, RPGs, and AKs galore. There is/was a huge market selling off ex-republic gear to African warlords.
edit: would still like some pictures though. the press coverage is paltry so far.
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would still like some pictures though. the press coverage is paltry so far.
Yes, and there are conflicting reports on who started it.
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where do you make this stuff up?
They hide it in the AP....you know... where you may have to READ it, you troglodite.
WASHINGTON — A classified Pentagon assessment concludes that long battlefield tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, along with persistent terrorist activity and other threats, have prevented the U.S. military from improving its ability to respond to any new crisis, The Associated Press has learned.
Despite security gains in Iraq, there is still a "significant" risk that the strained U.S. military cannot quickly and fully respond to another outbreak elsewhere in the world, according to the report.
Last year the Pentagon raised that threat risk from "moderate" to "significant." This year, the report will maintain that "significant" risk level _ pointing to the U.S. military's ongoing struggle against a stubborn insurgency in Iraq and its lead role in the NATO-led war in Afghanistan.
The Pentagon, however, will say that efforts to increase the size of the military, replace equipment and bolster partnerships overseas will help lower the risk over time, defense officials said Friday. They spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the classified report.
Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, has completed the risk assessment, and it is expected to be delivered to Capitol Hill this month. Because he has concluded the risk is significant, his report will include a letter from Defense Secretary Robert Gates outlining steps the Pentagon is taking to reduce it.
The risk level was raised to significant last year by Mullen's predecessor, Marine Gen. Peter Pace.
On Capitol Hill this week, Mullen provided a glimpse into his thinking on the review. And Pentagon officials Friday confirmed that the assessment is finished and acknowledged some of the factors Gates will cite in his letter.
"The risk has basically stayed consistent, stayed steady," Mullen told the House Armed Services Committee. "It is significant."
He said the 15-month tours in Iraq and Afghanistan are too long and must be reduced to 12 months, with longer rest periods at home. "We continue to build risk with respect to that," he said.
Other key national security challenges include threats from countries that possess weapons of mass destruction, as well as the need to replace equipment worn out and destroyed during more than six years of war.
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It's wishful thinking, or ignorance.
Again, simply read (see: Stop watching FOX news) and you will understand.
WASHINGTON — A classified Pentagon assessment concludes that long battlefield tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, along with persistent terrorist activity and other threats, have prevented the U.S. military from improving its ability to respond to any new crisis, The Associated Press has learned.
Despite security gains in Iraq, there is still a "significant" risk that the strained U.S. military cannot quickly and fully respond to another outbreak elsewhere in the world, according to the report.
Last year the Pentagon raised that threat risk from "moderate" to "significant." This year, the report will maintain that "significant" risk level _ pointing to the U.S. military's ongoing struggle against a stubborn insurgency in Iraq and its lead role in the NATO-led war in Afghanistan.
The Pentagon, however, will say that efforts to increase the size of the military, replace equipment and bolster partnerships overseas will help lower the risk over time, defense officials said Friday. They spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the classified report.
Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, has completed the risk assessment, and it is expected to be delivered to Capitol Hill this month. Because he has concluded the risk is significant, his report will include a letter from Defense Secretary Robert Gates outlining steps the Pentagon is taking to reduce it.
The risk level was raised to significant last year by Mullen's predecessor, Marine Gen. Peter Pace.
On Capitol Hill this week, Mullen provided a glimpse into his thinking on the review. And Pentagon officials Friday confirmed that the assessment is finished and acknowledged some of the factors Gates will cite in his letter.
"The risk has basically stayed consistent, stayed steady," Mullen told the House Armed Services Committee. "It is significant."
He said the 15-month tours in Iraq and Afghanistan are too long and must be reduced to 12 months, with longer rest periods at home. "We continue to build risk with respect to that," he said.
Other key national security challenges include threats from countries that possess weapons of mass destruction, as well as the need to replace equipment worn out and destroyed during more than six years of war.
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See Rules #4, #5, #7
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theres some pic's and vid. on the yahoo home page and on the cnn site ..
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Watching the the Georgian president on News few min ago, screaming for western help , i was thinking : with all his studies in west, he is dumb and naive if was planing to urinate on Russia's backyard, without getting punished . Was he expecting for USA to nuke Moscow and save his office?
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:rofl :aok
Watching the the Georgian president on News few min ago, screaming for western help , i was thinking : with all his studies in west, he is dumb and naive if was planing to urinate on Russia's backyard, without getting punished . Was he expecting for USA to nuke Moscow and save his office?
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Again, simply read (see: Stop watching FOX news) and you will understand.
I spent 20 years in the military and have relatives in now. I suspect I know more about our capabilites than you. Maybe you shouldn't believe every political hack you read on teh internets.
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[quote
Quote from: MORAY37 on Today at 09:55:47 AM
has already brought all of our forces to the point that they couldn't put out an outhouse fire in Mexico
where do you make this stuff up?
author=Yeager link=topic=243480.msg2971276#msg2971276 date=1218215125]
where do you make this stuff up?
[/quote]
He and Boroda smoke the same stuff. No other way to explain the detachment from observable fact.
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Watching the the Georgian president on News few min ago, screaming for western help , i was thinking : with all his studies in west, he is dumb and naive if was planing to urinate on Russia's backyard, without getting punished . Was he expecting for USA to nuke Moscow and save his office?
Its more complicated then that. Georgia is sitting right in the middle of the highway of possibly the largest untapped energy reserve left on the planet.
We need the energy reserves. Most of all Europe needs them, but all of us do.
To allow the latest exuse of a Russian strongman Govt. to gain a stranglehold on the tap is really to allow them to hold us by the short hairs. Wars have been fought for less. And there is no way America and Europe should leave Georgia to its own fate. Nor will we. The march towards full NATO membership, and weapons sales, will, if anything, only be quickened. Russia also cant afford a major conflict with NATO because theres no way they could win it.
But there is a real possibility for a major conflict here in the future. Heres a primer for what is really at stake.
http://europe.theoildrum.com/story/2006/11/18/102426/08
NATO might decide that a Russian take over of the Caspian energy pipeline is equivelant to a hostile takeover of the energy reserves in the Middle East. If that happens then there very likely will be a major conflict.
Now think like a Russian chess player. Do you see what this is all about now?
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I spent 20 years in the military and have relatives in now. I suspect I know more about our capabilites than you. Maybe you shouldn't believe every political hack you read on teh internets.
I was unclear that the chairman of the Joint Chiefs was a political hack. Though I might have to cede this point, he WAS after all, appointed by Bush.
Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, has completed the risk assessment, and it is expected to be delivered to Capitol Hill this month. Because he has concluded the risk is significant, his report will include a letter from Defense Secretary Robert Gates outlining steps the Pentagon is taking to reduce it.
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plenty of photos on militaryphotos.net have to wade through the propaganda but lots of pics.
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Carpet bombing? Have you looked at the Georgian Air Force? I must have missed those Strategic bombers in their arsenal.
Boroda - you have really out done yourself this time (and that's saying something).
"Thousands dead in huge bombing raid on city" :rofl
Aaah, it's our brave Brits, who don't count anything with less then 20,000 people killed in one air raid.
Now let me explain: Multiple Launch Rocket System like BM-21 "Grad", one launcher, with one salvo, turns several hectares of terrain into nothing but burning soil. Georgians deployed 27 launchers shooting point blank at Tskhinval. They also had several howitzer divisions and multiple heavy mortars. They were so self-confident and in such a hurry that they stockpiled spare Grad rockets on the ground right beside launchers.
Coventry was a minor accidental bombing compared to that.
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Let's see some pictures of that city that got completely destroyed. Let's also see some pictures of the Georgian bombers that are capable of carpet bombing.
Btw, the pictures of the Georgian tanks you posted sure look like Soviet built tanks to me and not M-60s or M-1s. More bogus crap from you.
Bulgaria and other former Warsaw Treaty countries are NATO members now. They "kindly donated" their weapons to "freedom loving" Georgia, old Soviet/Polish/whatever hardware. US sold them some UH-1 choppers that remain the only things able to fly there.
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I was unclear that the chairman of the Joint Chiefs was a political hack. Though I might have to cede this point, he WAS after all, appointed by Bush.
The military will never admit that they have plenty of resources. Soon as they do they start losing what they have. To say we couldn't very easily engage in a much larger war than what we face in Afghanistan and Iraq pretty quickly is only said by the military looking for more funds or someone looking to criticize the commander in chief.
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Yes, and there are conflicting reports on who started it.
How can you imagine a country 10 times smaller attack a bigger neighbor equipped with relatively modern airforce, hundreds of tanks, heavy and rocket artillery? Ask Finns about Mainila. That's pure idiocy.
Before 1400 MSK no one here could ever believe that our bloody "party and government" will ever dare to openly involve into a conflict to help Russian citizens abroad.
Look, they showed Grads shooting at Tskhinval on their TV. Creatures who do such things should be punished.
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Aaah, it's our brave Brits, who don't count anything with less then 20,000 people killed in one air raid.
I'm glad the Russians do not approve of this:
(http://cobb.typepad.com/cobb/images/2007/11/28/grozny2600d_belyakov.jpg)
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How can you imagine a country 10 times smaller attack a bigger neighbor equipped with relatively modern airforce, hundreds of tanks, heavy and rocket artillery? Ask Finns about Mainila. That's pure idiocy.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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:rofl :rofl :rofl
So you admit that Mainila was a true casus belli and a Finnish fault?!
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Georgian tanks ARE soviet built,you dumb as#.
I won't stoop to the same name calling you did, but I will quote what I was referring to. :uhoh
Georgian tanks and other machinery sent by their NATO friends is burning brightly in Tskhinval's suburbs.
If the Georgian tanks had been sent by NATO they wouldn't be the Soviet built tanks we see in the picture Comrade Boroda was kinda enough to post along with the statement I quoted from him.
Maybe you should have read the thread a bit more carefully. :aok
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Man, this is gonna get interesting. I hope we dont get involved in this.
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I'm glad the Russians do not approve of this:
(http://cobb.typepad.com/cobb/images/2007/11/28/grozny2600d_belyakov.jpg)
Wait... that's Grozny.
sorry
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Holden - that's unfair. The Russians gave them two whole weeks to clear out. Only terrorists were left behind. 100% guaranteed. Boroda read it in Pravda.
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I said I was sorry...
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I said I was sorry...
Yeah...but now you need to apologize. :devil
:P
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It's quite important to the US, because it provides military aid to Georgia, and even pays salary to Georgian government...
Proof please. Link please. Put up or shut up, otherwise you're just swallowing propoganda that your state controlled TV stations report to you.
*Crickets*
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Man, this is gonna get interesting. I hope we dont get involved in this.
Compared to...
Course not, Russia would get their butts owned in another weapons race. And if it went to war, OWNED again :D
Look back at 1962, when that almost happened. Who backed down then? Who would back down now? The same country :D
Putin was a former KGB agent, I dont know why the people of Russia would elect him unless it was rigged who knows. Communism sucks, plain and simple.
Hmmm
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We have helped them train their military forces Rip. Somehow I doubt that we are paying their salaries though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Georgia
The Georgia Train and Equip Program (GTEP) training was conducted using U.S. Special Operations Forces and U. S. Marine Corps forces from May 2002 to May 2004. During this time approximately 2,600 Georgian soldiers, including a headquarters staff element and 5 tactical units, received training. Another assistance program, the Georgia Security and Stability Operations Program (Georgia SSOP), was launched in January 2005 as a continuation of the (GTEP) of 2002-2004. Georgian contingents were involved in the Kosovo Force and continue to participate in the operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The GAF have been extensively reformed in the recent years to meet Georgia’s aspirations to join NATO and for better response to the existing challenges such as the ongoing tensions in the unresolved separatist conflict areas in Abkhazia and South Ossetia as well as to the threats of global terrorism. Georgia also views a large-scale foreign invasion and the spillover of conflicts from Russia’s North Caucasus as the worst potential near- and long-term scenarios, respectively.[5]
How important Georgia is to the US is debatable. We helped train some of their military forces to get them up to the standard of other NATO forces to facilitate their joining NATO.
As far as where their Soviet built equipment comes from....that too is the subject of debate. I have found nothing on the internet that says it came from former Warsaw Pact countries so far. I have found information saying the equipment may have been sold to the Georgians illegally by Russian officers.
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Hmmm
:lol :lol :lol
We dont need another war right now. We've pretty much won the War in Iraq, and look what they say about it. Russia would get it's butts whipped if they declared war on us. Remember, we have B-2 stealths that can drop N00ks, or bombs on ANY thing they need to. Russia only has the Tu-95 and a couple of others.
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90% of South Osetians are Russian citizens.
Well of coarse they are since the Russians have been handing out Russians passports to the population of SO like candy.
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:lol :lol :lol
We dont need another war right now. We've pretty much won the War in Iraq, and look what they say about it. Russia would get it's butts whipped if they declared war on us. Remember, we have B-2 stealths that can drop N00ks, or bombs on ANY thing they need to. Russia only has the Tu-95 and a couple of others.
Don't forget the ICBMs. Little doubt Russia still has more than a few operational. We have more but that would be a small consolation in a nuke war.
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Holden - that's unfair. The Russians gave them two whole weeks to clear out. Only terrorists were left behind. 100% guaranteed. Boroda read it in Pravda.
C'mon, teach Russians or Germans about taking fortified cities. I'll appreciate the list of the cities taken by His Majesties glorious army in the last 100 years, larger then Port Stanley.
150 years ago you guys didn't worry about civilians in Sevastopol... Oh, sorry! That time Brits were hiding behind French backs! Tooo bad when you meet an opponent who can return fire, eh?
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:lol :lol :lol
We dont need another war right now. We've pretty much won the War in Iraq, and look what they say about it. Russia would get it's butts whipped if they declared war on us. Remember, we have B-2 stealths that can drop N00ks, or bombs on ANY thing they need to. Russia only has the Tu-95 and a couple of others.
You are either naive or just plain dunderhead in your logic. You've basically stated that you would like to see nukes fly.
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:lol :lol :lol
We dont need another war right now. We've pretty much won the War in Iraq, and look what they say about it. Russia would get it's butts whipped if they declared war on us. Remember, we have B-2 stealths that can drop N00ks, or bombs on ANY thing they need to. Russia only has the Tu-95 and a couple of others.
Please use common sense and read up on the subject you talk about before making a fool of yourself.
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Well of coarse they are since the Russians have been handing out Russians passports to the population of SO like candy.
Are you going to tell us if we can give Russian citizenship to someone or we can't?! Are you nuts, comrade?
Go read something how you guys elegantly annexed Texas. So far Russia is a whitest lamb compared to the US with WMD in Iraq. We protect our citizens, and no one except RF Federal Migration Service and our President has the right to decide if someone deserves Russian citizenship.
Yow does this filter say? Yeah, hugs! :)
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*Crickets*
WMD in Iraq had enough proof for you. And now you get so sceptic about things that "everyone knows" (tm)! Did they brainwash you not to believe everything you have been told? Poor you!
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Man, this is gonna get interesting. I hope we dont get involved in this.
I also hoped we'll not get involved in it... Unfortunately we got.
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Don't forget the ICBMs. Little doubt Russia still has more than a few operational. We have more but that would be a small consolation in a nuke war.
I doubt that we would go to war. Those past threads, I was messin around in those last 2 quotes Mensa. You asked me, Russia would get whupped, would I want to go to war, no, as stated in my FIRST post. I'm readin what you guys posted in the first 7 pages, I reacted to it.
Please use common sense and read up on the subject you talk about before making a fool of yourself.
Please, dont try to dig up every quote you can on me. Especailly the quotes I'm not serious about.
Boroda stated (as I do not wanna dig up the exact quote)
Quote from: Boroda on Yesterday at 05:58:24 PM
It's quite important to the US, because it provides military aid to Georgia, and even pays salary to Georgian government...
I reacted to what Boroda said.
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This is "win win" for Putin.
It will be an easy victory. They should have no problem kicking Georgias butt, most of all considering the people in SO want nothing to do with Saakashvili. Whom has been raceing at breakneck speed to integrate with NATO in order to shore up support for just such a reality. Putin has been trying hard to provke all this for awhile because he wants to torpedo Georgias integration with the West before it firms up with a full NATO membership.
OK, so now its "on". Putin will get his splendid little war and get huge waves at home, "who doesnt like winning a war"? He will weaken Georgias position across the board, frighten other NATO states that allowing Georgia might draw them into a full scale war with Russia.
But most importantly he will get a stranglehold on the central Asian oil and gas pipeline. Thats what really is at stake here. If Putin can pull off a victory and bring Georgia back into the fold, under Russian influence again, it will strengthen Russias European strangelhold on oil and natural gas. As an added plus conflict in the region will keep energy prices high, which again helps Russia.
Like I said, Putin cant lose here. Clever boy.
And if anyone thinks the Russians are doing this out of concern for the well being of South Osetians??? Well I think you have to generous an outlook on Russian government.
One of the most sane and reasonable posts in this thread. Nice to see someone thinking instead of repeating propaganda slogans or just trolling like I do.
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C'mon, teach Russians or Germans about taking fortified cities. I'll appreciate the list of the cities taken by His Majesties glorious army in the last 100 years, larger then Port Stanley.
150 years ago you guys didn't worry about civilians in Sevastopol... Oh, sorry! That time Brits were hiding behind French backs! Tooo bad when you meet an opponent who can return fire, eh?
Baghdad? oh sorry, that was the americans.
the russians lost 100,000 men taking berlin because stalin wanted it for his birthday. How many do you want to lose against NATO.
russian tanks VS cobra gunships= tanks lose.
sevastopol? how about the russo-japanese war.
State Entry Exit Combat Forces Population Losses
Japan 1904 1905 400000 45000000 85000
Russia 1904 1905 2000000 136000000 125000
Russo-Japanese War (1904-05), military conflict in which a victorious Japan forced Russia to abandon its expansionist policy in the Far East, becoming the first Asian power in modern times to defeat a European power.
tell us again about the mighty russian victorys uncle joe.
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I doubt that we would go to war.
We won't attack Russia directly unless attacked or a closer ally is attacked.
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backpeddle
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I'm an idiot who spends my time trying to quote someone on every single thing they have ever said in their entire life because I have no life
I can play this game too.
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Go read something how you guys elegantly annexed Texas.
I'll let a real live Texan respond to that. :uhoh
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I won't get in a pissing match with you, people can read the thread and make their own opinions.
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Georgian Su-25 shot down
http://www.vesti.ru/videos?vid=143324&cid=9&doc_type=news&doc_id=199676 (http://www.vesti.ru/videos?vid=143324&cid=9&doc_type=news&doc_id=199676)
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And what do we get on CNN? John Edwards having an affair, and a bunch of barbie-reporter-bimboes blathering on about it like a gossip circle at a womens support group.
Maybe they will give an update when the tac-nukes start to fly. Or, maybe not.
Switched to CNN Headline News, Nancy Grace talking about another cute baby missing somehere, on the "murder for entertainment hour".
...Googling online, its the only way you can get real "news" anymore.
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However a soviet calling someone else barbaric is just freaking priceless! :rofl
THAT is sig material, because it is so true. LOL
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Are you going to tell us if we can give Russian citizenship to someone or we can't?! Are you nuts, comrade?
:rolleyes: So the USA can give, if the Americans wanted to, American citizenship to Georgians then?
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Like the Gulf war all future wars will probably center around resources, with energy resources being at the front.
Greece and Turkey are probably heading down that path as the Agean sea has oil and eventually somone is going to want to get it.
Governments will tell their citizens its about freedom, or WMDs, or besieged shared ethnic communities. They will come up with all kinds of honorable reasons for the war. Like Putin is doing, "as if he gives a rats arse about these South Osetians". But the bottom line is oil, gas,water, resources, money, the power of controlling them and the strategic advantage it gives.
They cant really tell the truth cause most people cant handle the truth. They will whine and complain about gas prices but cant stomach the reality that nations somtimes have to fight for it. Be it the Agean, the Spratleys, Manchuria, the Caspian region, Africa, the Middle East, the Golans water...ect These will be the stages of future conflicts. Indeed, ever since Industrialzation, resources have been the main reason most wars have started. Most of all WW-ll. If you think about it its probably been the case ever since we picked up a spear or swung a club. All thats changed is the types of resources being fought for.
So when you look past all the rhetoric you will probably find the common denominator. And its going to get a lot worse because we are eating the planets resources away at an alarming rate.
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:rolleyes: So the USA can give, if the Americans wanted to, American citizenship to Georgians then?
According to Boroda's line of reasoning, sure....why not......
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And what do we get on CNN? John Edwards having an affair, and a bunch of barbie-reporter-bimboes blathering on about it like a gossip circle at a womens support group.
Maybe they will give an update when the tac-nukes start to fly. Or, maybe not.
Switched to CNN Headline News, Nancy Grace talking about another cute baby missing somehere, on the "murder for entertainment hour".
...Googling online, its the only way you can get real "news" anymore.
You are "right on" with that sentiment, Squire. :salute
How these people decide what's relevant is beyond me. The major networks have become nothing but a gossip pit spouting on and on about irrelevancies.
I find it sicking.
As to the current conflict at hand:this may not end well. (understatement)
With the current unstable footing of the geopolitical world landscape it might not take much for something like this to balloon into a major regional war.
How many major world players have to be involved in open warfare before it's officially declared as WW3 in progress?
Toward the end of 2008/start of 2009 I think the conflagration between US+Israel vs Iran will begin.
God help us all when that starts.
Sorry for the rambling.
My thoughts and prayers go out to those on both sides of this current conflict.
Hopefully cool heads will prevail.
Regards,
Sun
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.
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Interesting stuff, Bighorn. Indeed.
Thanks for the link.
Regards,
Sun
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what happened to the link???
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Here it is. http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1218104233164&pagename=JPArticle%2FShowFull
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what happened to the link???
:noid :noid :noid
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Here it is. http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1218104233164&pagename=JPArticle%2FShowFull
I would guess that our CV groups' in the Med are flying their sorties' armed right now, as well. And, maybe headed in the direction of the Black Sea.
I've got a question for you, Boroda. Are the Ossetians' different culturally from the rest of Georgia? I mean, what is really their basic underlying reason for wanting independence, anyway?
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There is no way a population of 70,000 can set up their own country.
They clearly want to align with North Osetia, thus becoming part of Russian Federation.
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I would guess that our CV groups' in the Med are flying their sorties' armed right now, as well. And, maybe headed in the direction of the Black Sea.
I've got a question for you, Boroda. Are the Ossetians' different culturally from the rest of Georgia? I mean, what is really their basic underlying reason for wanting independence, anyway?
During my research today that's something I didn't find an answer to either. I too, would be interested in knowing.
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Are you going to tell us if we can give Russian citizenship to someone or we can't?! Are you nuts, comrade?
I do hope you drunk mangy butt is among the first drafted as cannon fodder for the up-coming ass-whuppin, comrade.
Some interesting notes... if this conflict is about territory, then it's Georgian Territory. Not Russian.
Get out.
If it's about the pipeline into southern europe, it's about Energy and regional influence... While Russia may be annoyed there's an American Ally in their backyard; it's also true that the Georgians are less than charmed by the possible formation of a new Russian state less than 50 miles from their capital. They most definitely do not want YOU in their backyard, comrade.
We put up with Russian backed Cuba.. you salamanders can live with American Backed Georgia... with ALL it's territory intact.
Get out.
Russia is not at all charmed by the NATO plan for Georgia's future membership... well; tuff chit, commie. That pipeline is a key element in a FREE Europe's energy plan... and I'm reasonably sure they ain't charmed by the concept of a Red Tide coming up in their crappers either.
Yah really wanna mess around with US or Them?
LOL.. crushing civilians yer pretty good at.... but crushing us didn't work out so well the first time; think yer ready for another go at it, already? Looks to me like yer party hack boss just bit off more than he (or you) can chew.
Bon a petite; comrade.
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Ok... who's telling the truth?
Georgia said it was forced to launch the assault because of rebel attacks; the separatists alleged Georgia violated a cease-fire.
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Ok... who's telling the truth?
Georgia said it was forced to launch the assault because of rebel attacks; the separatists alleged Georgia violated a cease-fire.
I doubt we'll find out the truth anytime soon, if ever. No-one's gonna want to fess up to this mess.
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Ok... who's telling the truth?
Georgia said it was forced to launch the assault because of rebel attacks; the separatists alleged Georgia violated a cease-fire.
That's exactly what was being reported initially, 2 different things. (I posted links to that on the first page of this thread.) There is also information out there saying Russia might have instigated things and has wanted to for some time. /shrug
Out of all the information we've seen, including at this board....I'm least likely to believe Boroda. :uhoh
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hmmm here's the timeline in that region so far...
1991-92
- S Ossetia fights war to break away from newly independent Georgia; Russia enforces truce
2004
- Mikhail Saakashvili elected Georgian president, promising to recover lost territories
2006
- S Ossetians vote for independence in unofficial referendum
April 2008
- Russia steps up ties with Abkhazia and South Ossetia
July 2008
- Russia admits flying jets over S Ossetia; Russia and Georgia accuse each other of military build-up
7 August 2008
- After escalating Georgian-Ossetian clashes, sides agree to ceasefire
8 August 2008
- Heavy fighting erupts overnight, Georgian forces close in on Tskhinvali
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How can you imagine a country 10 times smaller attack a bigger neighbor equipped with relatively modern airforce, hundreds of tanks, heavy and rocket artillery? Ask Finns about Mainila. That's pure idiocy.
I actually missed this earlier.....
I never said the smaller country attacked the larger one. I did however show two completely different reports on who started what. I can certainly imagine South Ossetia starting a fight knowing the Russians would come to their aid. I can also imagine Georgia starting the fight hoping that if the Russians jumped in, that NATO would come to their aid.
South Ossetia is Georgian territory, as is the other rebel province. Any disputes need to be resolved between the Georgian government and the separtatist provinces.
The only numbers I can find online for equipment used by the Georgian armed forces is from Wikipedia and that particular article is not documented very well so I would take what it has to say with a grain of salt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Georgia
A grand total of 245 Main Battle Tanks, 40 of which are the older T-55's. Their best fighter aircraft is the MiG-21 and they only have 18 of those. They do apparently have 12 of the high speed MiG 25 interceptors as well, along with 39 attack aircraft. The airforce is pretty well out dated.
Equipment
Main battle tanks
* T-72B1 - 59 units
* T-72M - 75 units
* T-72AB - 71 units
* T-55AM - 40 units
AIFVs/APCs
* BMP-1 - 80 units
* BMP-2 - 120 units
* BTR-80 - 75 units
* MT-LB - 64 units
* BRDM-2 - 17 units
* Otokar Cobra - 100 units
Towed artillery
* 2A36 Giatsint-B - 12 units
* 2A65 Msta-B - 18 units
* 2A18 (D-30) - 120 units
Self-propelled artillery
* 2S7 Pion - 12 units
* 2S19 Msta-S - 3 units
* 2S3 Akatsiya - 26 units
* VZ 77 Dana - 47 units
Multiple Launch Rocket Systems
* M-87 Orkan - 4 units
* RM-70 - 48 units
* BM-21 Grad - 120 units
* LAR-160- 15 units
* M-63 Plamen – 12 units
Mortars
* 2B11 120 mm - 240 units
* M-38/43 120 mm - 365 units
* M75 120 mm – 250 units
[edit] Georgian Air Force
The Georgian Air Force consists of the air force and the air defense.
The main missions of the air forces are: to control and defend air space of Georgia; conduct air intelligence and surveillance; provide support to the Armed Forces other Services; conduct air evacuation and search and rescue operations; air movement of personnel and military cargo transportation. The strength of Air Forces is 1 813 military and civilian personnel.
[edit] Equipment
Aircraft
* 22 Su-25KM
* 13 Su-25UB
* 12 MiG-25
* 4 Su-24
* 18 MiG-21
* 11 L-39
* 2 L-29
Helicopters
* 1 Mi-35
* 19 Mi-24P
* 21 Mi-24V
* 18 Mi-14
* 16 Mi-8
* 6 Bell 212
* 40 UH-1H
* 2 Mi-2
[edit] Air Defence
* 15 SA-11
* 38 SA-3
* 18 SA-8
* 35 ZSU-23-4
* 15 S-60
* 40 MT-LB with towed ZU-23-2
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hmmm here's the timeline in that region so far...
1991-92
- S Ossetia fights war to break away from newly independent Georgia; Russia enforces truce
2004
- Mikhail Saakashvili elected Georgian president, promising to recover lost territories
2006
- S Ossetians vote for independence in unofficial referendum
April 2008
- Russia steps up ties with Abkhazia and South Ossetia
July 2008
- Russia admits flying jets over S Ossetia; Russia and Georgia accuse each other of military build-up
7 August 2008
- After escalating Georgian-Ossetian clashes, sides agree to ceasefire
8 August 2008
- Heavy fighting erupts overnight, Georgian forces close in on Tskhinvali
South Ossetia and Abkhazia are still Georgian territory. Until some sort of agreement can be reached between the two sides that is.
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Bulgaria and other former Warsaw Treaty countries are NATO members now. They "kindly donated" their weapons to "freedom loving" Georgia, old Soviet/Polish/whatever hardware. US sold them some UH-1 choppers that remain the only things able to fly there.
Links.....or you're full of pewps again. ;)
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The military will never admit that they have plenty of resources. Soon as they do they start losing what they have. To say we couldn't very easily engage in a much larger war than what we face in Afghanistan and Iraq pretty quickly is only said by the military looking for more funds or someone looking to criticize the commander in chief.
After 6 years of 2 ongoing wars, costing at least 1 trillion of our dollars (and that is being conservative)... sometimes the truth is the truth. With upwards of a third to 45% of the Army's combat ready regular active brigades already committed elsewhere (not just Iraq) I respectfully disagree with you. Now, unless you somehow think that throwing national guard troops mixed with army ACB's (Active Combat Brigades) at Regular Russian Actives on their soil is a good idea.......(I'm probably talking to a wall here, you probably live in a world where you think US NG troops actually had a chance versus regulars) we just don't have the strength to do it. If the fight was in Alberta..... yeah, we could do it, with our backs ups against the wall. 12K miles away, with transport and logistical hurdles that are near impossible to surmount, and without prepositioned heavy equipment.... FORGET it.
I also note that your military background notwithstanding, you rush quickly to judge a man who is Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. How many commands have you had, again?
Considering you're out.... I'd say you haven't had one...certainly not a list like this. I'll take this man's word over your BBS rationale....he's the one responsible.
Michael G. Mullen, Commands held
Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff
Chief of Naval Operations
U.S. Naval Forces Europe
Allied Joint Force Command Naples
Vice Chief of Naval Operations
U.S. Second Fleet
NATO Striking Fleet Atlantic
Cruiser-Destroyer Group Two
George Washington Battle Group
USS Yorktown (CG-48)
USS Goldsborough (DDG-20)
USS Noxubee (AOG-56)
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So you admit that Mainila was a true casus belli and a Finnish fault?!
Admitting that would be weird since soviet leadership publicly admitted staging the Mainila shots as an excuse for the attack. Go figure..
You live in some weird parallel reality Boroda I never could believe someone still believes in soviet time propaganda, even in Russia.
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:rolleyes: So the USA can give, if the Americans wanted to, American citizenship to Georgians then?
It's up to you guys. No one can stop you.
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It's up to you guys. No one can stop you.
So you think it would be OK for the Americans to hand out passports to Georgians when Georgia was part of the former USSR.
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The Georgians are attempting to retake soverign territory from a Russian backed breakaway, and at least they have the balls to take on the task from the "Russian peackeepers" (Ha, they're not fooling anyone with that title).
A pro western ex soviet state, with American military advisors wanting to join Nato is being pushed to the brink by its bully of a neighbour, the question should be what will or should Nato, and the west do about it?
The fact they're sitting on large deposits of resources, and a pipeline which bypasses Russia and Iran makes it a problem they can't afford to ignore.
Either Georgia is playing for time, and the hope of Nato intervention or a Russian backdown - or maybe they believe they could take on the Russian military, which lets face it the bulk of which isn't worth $2 dollars in an actual fight - apart from its reliance on the Airforce and its artillery
Tronsky
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Right now Georgian forces are bombing Tshinvali using BM-21 Grad. They officially announced hostilities against South Osetia. Russian peacekeeping forces are still not involved, but we'll see.
This is insane. I see a full-scale world crisis beginning.
Boroda, I'm so sorry this is happening.
It is insane.
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If you check some of the past independant journalist reporting that has come out of S. Ossetia you'll notice that Ossetians really don't like Georgians, there's a lot of bad blood. They've never considered themselves georgian, see my previous post about east euro nationalism/stupidity. The fact that 90% of them have chosen to take russian passports and be identified as russians rather than georgians should give you an indication just how much they don't like Georgia. The only way that Georgia can reclaim S. Ossetia is by displacing most of the ossetians, aka. ethnic cleansing. Ossetians deserve the right to self determination as much as anybody else.
Now, has russia been antagonizing, manipulating and taking advantage of the situation? Absolutely. The gangsters that control russia would love to get their hands on the door to the caspian. But that's not going to happen either.
If georgia and russia commit to war against eachother it is going to be very damaging to russia. A ground war will be very difficult for russia. Pound for pound, the georgian ground forces are much better. But russia has air superiority. So tragically, what I speculate is that russia will fall back on artillery and aerial bombardment to compensate for the incomptence of the russian ground forces just as they did in Chechnya. Which of course is going to cause a disgusting amount of civilian death and misery. And I think the georgians will fight unyeildingly. The war would be very damaging for russia should they take the fight beyond S. Ossetia into georgia. And in the end they won't be able to annex Georgia anyway without returning to being regarded as a pariah state again. And the russian people won't tolerate that. A lot of muscovites still remember having to wipe their bellybutton with leaves 20 odd years ago.
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South Ossetia and Abkhazia are still Georgian territory. Until some sort of agreement can be reached between the two sides that is.
Kosovo
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After 6 years of 2 ongoing wars, costing at least 1 trillion of our dollars (and that is being conservative)... sometimes the truth is the truth. With upwards of a third to 45% of the Army's combat ready regular active brigades already committed elsewhere (not just Iraq) I respectfully disagree with you. Now, unless you somehow think that throwing national guard troops mixed with army ACB's (Active Combat Brigades) at Regular Russian Actives on their soil is a good idea.......(I'm probably talking to a wall here, you probably live in a world where you think US NG troops actually had a chance versus regulars) we just don't have the strength to do it. If the fight was in Alberta..... yeah, we could do it, with our backs ups against the wall. 12K miles away, with transport and logistical hurdles that are near impossible to surmount, and without prepositioned heavy equipment.... FORGET it.
I also note that your military background notwithstanding, you rush quickly to judge a man who is Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. How many commands have you had, again?
Considering you're out.... I'd say you haven't had one...certainly not a list like this. I'll take this man's word over your BBS rationale....he's the one responsible.
Michael G. Mullen, Commands held
Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff
Chief of Naval Operations
U.S. Naval Forces Europe
Allied Joint Force Command Naples
Vice Chief of Naval Operations
U.S. Second Fleet
NATO Striking Fleet Atlantic
Cruiser-Destroyer Group Two
George Washington Battle Group
USS Yorktown (CG-48)
USS Goldsborough (DDG-20)
USS Noxubee (AOG-56)
Only 45% of our Army committed and much less than that of our other services and you think we couldn't mount a campaing somewhere else? Do you realize that our Air Force almost alone decimated the world's 4th largest Army in '91. Of course there was a build up of forces and support forces over several months but that would have to be replicated just about anywhere we aren't already forward based. I think your hate for Bush blinds you.
Military commanders wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't jealously protect their resources and ability to wage war. I don't fault them for this.
(added)
and Naval air forces
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So you think it would be OK for the Americans to hand out passports to Georgians when Georgia was part of the former USSR.
Sure.
Did you?
Cowards who can only mass-kill unarmed civilians.
(http://s42.radikal.ru/i098/0808/dc/c8eadc863866.jpg)
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This is all ive gotton around to reading lately
By MISHA DZHINDZHIKHASHVILI, Associated Press Writer
50 minutes ago
GORI, Georgia - Russia sent hundreds of tanks and troops into the separatist province of South Ossetia and bombed Georgian towns Saturday in a major escalation of the conflict that has left scores of civilians dead and wounded
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Only 45% of our Army committed and much less than that of our other services and you think we couldn't mount a campaing somewhere else? Do you realize that our Air Force almost alone decimated the world's 4th largest Army in '91. Of course there was a build up of forces and support forces over several months but that would have to be replicated just about anywhere we aren't already forward based. I think your hate for Bush blinds you.
Military commanders wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't jealously protect their resources and ability to wage war. I don't fault them for this.
You use 45% of your armed forces to pretend you control a country of 11 million. So far you are somehow successful only raping third world countries strangled by international sanctions like Yugoslavia and Iraq.
You are absolutely insane if you seriously think your regime can afford a full-scale conventional conflict with Russia.
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This is all ive gotton around to reading lately
By MISHA DZHINDZHIKHASHVILI, Associated Press Writer
50 minutes ago
GORI, Georgia - Russia sent hundreds of tanks and troops into the separatist province of South Ossetia and bombed Georgian towns Saturday in a major escalation of the conflict that has left scores of civilians dead and wounded
If he is writing this from Gori then he is a liar. Gori is like 30km from Tskhinval, it's a town where Stalin was born.
We don;t diddlying care what some morons think. We have a goal and means to reach it. C'mon do something about it. You can bark as loud as you want, the caravan will keep going.
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think we have around 100 advisors there. We have given/sold some items but nothing major. I am actually kinda shocked some are using m-4,m-16s. I think in that environment the ak would be a better choice.
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think we have around 100 advisors there. We have given/sold some items but nothing major. I am actually kinda shocked some are using m-4,m-16s. I think in that environment the ak would be a better choice.
UH-1 is a main vermin chopper now. And they wear digital camos. Quite enough to accuse you guys...
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You use 45% of your armed forces to pretend you control a country of 11 million. So far you are somehow successful only raping third world countries strangled by international sanctions like Yugoslavia and Iraq.
You are absolutely insane if you seriously think your regime can afford a full-scale conventional conflict with Russia.
If you think a full scale war between the US and Russia would leave anything but ruins, perhaps of the entire world, your renewed delusions of grandeur are pathetic.
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Boroda I notice your posts never go beyond 3 sentences.
Why is that? Government censorship? Personal fear of the secret police should you blather on?
Cant be your English, which seems fine. But you always sound like your reading the front headline of Pravda.
Im just wondering, no offense comrade.
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If you think a full scale war between the US and Russia would leave anything but ruins, perhaps of the entire world, your renewed delusions of grandeur are pathetic.
I said: conventional.
What you said saves us from "democratisation" US style.
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I said: conventional.
What you said saves us from "democratisation" US style.
I know what you said. The war in which nukes were used started out as a conventional war. It would be the epitome of foolishness to believe a full scale "conventional" war wouldn't escalate to a no holds barred fight.
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Boroda I notice your posts never go beyond 3 sentences.
Why is that? Government censorship? Personal fear of the secret police should you blather on?
Cant be your English, which seems fine. But you always sound like your reading the front headline of Pravda.
Im just wondering, no offense comrade.
I posted news in real time with some brief comments. Now I just answer. Not much time, one day vacation, I prefer my girl and tasty drinks to political bullpoop and/or waving a Red Banner :) I didn't watch TV today. Just cooked some food and mixed some drinks.
Here is a map of the current theater of operations for you guys:
http://s71.photobucket.com/albums/i150/tarlith/?action-view¤t=art_25994.png
Edit: Sorry now i just post the link.
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I know what you said. The war in which nukes were used started out as a conventional war. It would be the epitome of foolishness to believe a full scale "conventional" war wouldn't escalate to a no holds barred fight.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed because no one knew what this bombs really were.
Even Hitler didn't use poison gases full-scale at the front line.
MAD is a brilliant solution.
Hmm maybe you're right: Russian military doctrine supposes using nukes against anyone who invades Russia or it's allies. We can't afford conventional forces like USSR, that spent over 60% of it's GNP on defense.
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Seem to remember Boroda getting on his high horse about collateral damage in the bombing campaign against Serbia...
Aftermath of the air strikes in Gori:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7551595.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7551595.stm)
It seems the Russian fly-boys have difficulty targetting military assets too.
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Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed because no one knew what this bombs really were.
Even Hitler didn't use poison gases full-scale at the front line.
MAD is a brilliant solution.
Hmm maybe you're right: Russian military doctrine supposes using nukes against anyone who invades Russia or it's allies. We can't afford conventional forces like USSR, that spent over 60% of it's GNP on defense.
I see it like this. The US and Russia have never engaged in direct full scale hostilities. If we did, which side do you suppose would be inclined to surrender or admit defeat without using all force at their disposal? I suspect neither.
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lol at thinking the huey is a main "vermin" weapon.
The irony of boroda is stunning. If his wonderful soviet union was back would he even be on the internet. hmmmm.
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the photshop link wants a password
I posted news in real time with some brief comments. Now I just answer. Not much time, one day vacation, I prefer my girl and tasty drinks to political bullpoop and/or waving a Red Banner :) I didn't watch TV today. Just cooked some food and mixed some drinks.
Here is a map of the current theater of operations for you guys:
http://s71.photobucket.com/albums/i150/tarlith/?action-view¤t=art_25994.png
Edit: Sorry now i just post the link.
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Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed because no one knew what this bombs really were.
Even Hitler didn't use poison gases full-scale at the front line.
MAD is a brilliant solution.
Hmm maybe you're right: Russian military doctrine supposes using nukes against anyone who invades Russia or it's allies. We can't afford conventional forces like USSR, that spent over 60% of it's GNP on defense.
Oppenheimer and the rest of the Trinity team damn well knew what they'd do. They lobbied to have the bomb "demonstrated" on an un-inhabited pacific island, to demonstrate it to the Japanese. In the end, even with all of the people that did get killed, the conventional invasion would have killed many times more-and a high percentage of those would have been americans.
Hitler himself may have been influenced by the injuries he had received on the Western front as a(n) corporal during WW I. However, he didn't seem to have any qualms' about the usage of Xyclon-B in the gas chambers. And...
...MAD only works' when sane people are in charge. It seems' like there's quite a few batshit-crazy SOB's in power in the nations' of the world today.
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Seem to remember Boroda getting on his high horse about collateral damage in the bombing campaign against Serbia...
Aftermath of the air strikes in Gori:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7551595.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7551595.stm)
It seems the Russian fly-boys have difficulty targetting military assets too.
You have a problem telling a bomb strike from a street fight. Fire at a 4th floor in a 5-stored building isn't a result of an air strike. Is it understandable?... All I saw there was a staged apartment fire.
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i am amazed that the russians got their old rusty tanks to run. :lol
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Right now Georgian forces are bombing Tshinvali using BM-21 Grad. They officially announced hostilities against South Osetia. Russian peacekeeping forces are still not involved, but we'll see.
This is insane. I see a full-scale world crisis beginning.
your presence is requested at http://www.flamewarriors.net/forum/index.php dress properly and bathe you unwashed relic of the soviet era
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I said: conventional.
What you said saves us from "democratisation" US style.
Lets see... 12 CV Battle Groups, the spooled up and functional logistical re-supply of the USAF, the long range stealth bombers and cruise missiles, the advanced technology of our 'conventional' armor, artillery and ground troops...
... your tulips would be owned; and your local commanders would need diapers. You'd better hope that our fruitcake president does not get annoyed. You wouldn't like him when he's mad.
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If you think a full scale war between the US and Russia would leave anything but ruins, perhaps of the entire world, your renewed delusions of grandeur are pathetic.
word
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Baghdad? oh sorry, that was the americans.
the russians lost 100,000 men taking berlin because stalin wanted it for his birthday. How many do you want to lose against NATO.
russian tanks VS cobra gunships= tanks lose.
sevastopol? how about the russo-japanese war.
State Entry Exit Combat Forces Population Losses
Japan 1904 1905 400000 45000000 85000
Russia 1904 1905 2000000 136000000 125000
Russo-Japanese War (1904-05), military conflict in which a victorious Japan forced Russia to abandon its expansionist policy in the Far East, becoming the first Asian power in modern times to defeat a European power.
tell us again about the mighty russian victorys uncle joe.
OK now I am back to this pathetic post :)
You, english-speaking person, trying to tell me about Russo-Japanese war?!
I have a bookshelf full of literature on R-J war. Russian, Japanese and even English.
It's all about how NOT to wage war.
40 years later Red Army performed Manchurian Operation.
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lol at thinking the huey is a main "vermin" weapon.
Georgian - gruzin in Russian.
Grizun - vermin in Russian.
The irony of boroda is stunning. If his wonderful soviet union was back would he even be on the internet. hmmmm.
Don't be afraid, they'll only issue ration cards for gasoline :lol
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OK now I am back to this pathetic post :)
You, english-speaking person, trying to tell me about Russo-Japanese war?!
I have a bookshelf full of literature on R-J war. Russian, Japanese and even English.
It's all about how NOT to wage war.
40 years later Red Army performed Manchurian Operation.
The Soviet invasion of Manchuria or Manchurian Strategic Offensive Operation, began on August 9, 1945, with the Soviet invasion of the Japanese puppet state of Manchukuo. The Soviets later conquered Mengjiang, as well as northern Korea, southern Sakhalin, and the Kuril Islands.
August 9, 1945 ... seems to be a significant date in world war history...
Something else happened that day that others have said was unnecessary because Japan was already defeated.
it'll come to me.
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Lets see... 12 CV Battle Groups, the spooled up and functional logistical re-supply of the USAF, the long range stealth bombers and cruise missiles, the advanced technology of our 'conventional' armor, artillery and ground troops...
... your tulips would be owned; and your local commanders would need diapers. You'd better hope that our fruitcake president does not get annoyed. You wouldn't like him when he's mad.
That's basically what Hitler said as he rolled east into Russia. "I have the world's best army and airforce... bow to me." We all know how it ended. T34's on the Reichstag and all. Don't ever underestimate the resolve of your enemy, and the tactical advantage of their own terrain. It would be idiotic for someone to think a US/Russia conflict would end without incredible casualties on both sides.
Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.
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Lets see... 12 CV Battle Groups, the spooled up and functional logistical re-supply of the USAF, the long range stealth bombers and cruise missiles, the advanced technology of our 'conventional' armor, artillery and ground troops...
... your tulips would be owned; and your local commanders would need diapers. You'd better hope that our fruitcake president does not get annoyed. You wouldn't like him when he's mad.
Hang, this time you sound more rational :)
So far you guys failed everywhere you involved. And you, mr Hangtime, witnessed and took part in one of that failures.
I had an honor to talk to guys who returned from Iraq. My friends have been to Afghan. You guys sccrew up everything.
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Hang, this time you sound more rational :)
So far you guys failed everywhere you involved. And you, mr Hangtime, witnessed and took part in one of that failures.
I had an honor to talk to guys who returned from Iraq. My friends have been to Afghan. You guys sccrew up everything.
I don't recall you guys doing so well yourselves.
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Hang, this time you sound more rational :)
So far you guys failed everywhere you involved. And you, mr Hangtime, witnessed and took part in one of that failures.
I had an honor to talk to guys who returned from Iraq. My friends have been to Afghan. You guys sccrew up everything.
Yup. Still wanna play?
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Hang, this time you sound more rational :)
So far you guys failed everywhere you involved. And you, mr Hangtime, witnessed and took part in one of that failures.
I had an honor to talk to guys who returned from Iraq. My friends have been to Afghan. You guys sccrew up everything.
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1690:success-in-iraq&catid=34:dispatches&Itemid=55#yvComment
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UH-1 is a main vermin chopper now. And they wear digital camos. Quite enough to accuse you guys...
You really are a sad man Boroda. The Georgians are vermin? Your hero Stalin was a Georgian.....
Oh...the UH-1 Helicopter is from the Vietnam era. It was designed as a transport helicopter but can be adapted to fill several other roles.
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Kosovo
Big difference between South Ossetia and Kosovo. No one is being forcibly removed from their homes in South Ossetia and forced to leave the country. That is a form of ethnic cleansing and is exactly what was happening in Kosovo. Without the ethnic cleansing NATO would not have gotten involved. Of course, throughout all of former Yugoslavia ethnic cleansing and genocide were regular practices by all sides.
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Hang, this time you sound more rational :)
So far you guys failed everywhere you involved. And you, mr Hangtime, witnessed and took part in one of that failures.
I had an honor to talk to guys who returned from Iraq. My friends have been to Afghan. You guys sccrew up everything.
Both World Wars....we did pretty both times.
Let's see.....Korea, the South Koreans are still not under communist rule. We didn't do so badly there.
Vietnam....we bowed to political pressure and left that fight. We even made promises that our Congress wouldn't allow us to keep. That one was a mess.
Panama and Grenada were both successes.
Gulf War 1 was a success as well. (Although I personally believe we should have taken Baghdad the first time around.)
Afghanistan and Iraq, the jury is still out on those because we still aren't done in either place.
Oh, and we won the Cold War as well. :rock
USSR lost the Cold War, and got their butts kicked in Afghanistan in a way that was reminiscent of the Vietnam war for the USA.
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That's basically what Hitler said as he rolled east into Russia. "I have the world's best army and airforce... bow to me." We all know how it ended. T34's on the Reichstag and all. Don't ever underestimate the resolve of your enemy, and the tactical advantage of their own terrain. It would be idiotic for someone to think a US/Russia conflict would end without incredible casualties on both sides.
Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.
Hitler DIDN'T say that and Hitler took the bait of stalling Barbarossa, while mixing it up in the Balkans. Those 6 weeks cost him quite possibly Moscow.
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26080747/
Tonight Nightly news
While we were watching the olympics we saw a short shot of Bush and Putin where the looked like they were arguing. Bet this was it.
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How in the Hell could ANYBODY, with half a brain, believe the USA should get involved in this newest conflict? Are some of you insane? Reading some of the posts here makes me fear for us. It's time for me to start digging the bunker.
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Georgia has asked for US military airlift help to transfer its troops in Iraq back home to Georgia.
If Putin pushes to intercept any such troop convoy with force we would see war break out between US and Russian military forces. The end game here
is nuclear exchange.
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Hitler DIDN'T say that and Hitler took the bait of stalling Barbarossa, while mixing it up in the Balkans. Those 6 weeks cost him quite possibly Moscow.
That was better than getting bogged down in the morass of mud if he done so 6 weeks earlier.
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How in the Hell could ANYBODY, with half a brain, believe the USA should get involved in this newest conflict? Are some of you insane? Reading some of the posts here makes me fear for us. It's time for me to start digging the bunker.
Enh? We only help others when we're 'healthy'? Yup; this situation is most inconvenient. Shouldn't be the determining factor regarding how we respond.
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Georgia has asked for US military airlift help to transfer its troops in Iraq back home to Georgia.
If Putin pushes to intercept any such troop convoy with force we would see war break out between US and Russian military forces. The end game here
is nuclear exchange.
I don't know if we would send any MAC transports' in unescorted; However, If we DO send them, with fighter cover, and it turns' into an all-out battle for air supremacy over Georgia-Ossetia, then we might see further U.S. involvment.
As far as going Nuclear, well...I don't myself think immediately. The Russian's aren't fighting on their own soil, technically; Even if they pull back and lose Ossetia to the Georgian's, They don't lose anything they didn't already have. At the same time, we are helping an ally, BUT, not a full-fledged NATO member. If this was a full NATO country, my guess is that do to treaty obligations, we'd already have our own forces' involved. But I don't think we have any such obligations' at the current time. I'm looking to see some kind of diplomatic solution fairly shortly.
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Enh? We only help others when we're 'healthy'? Yup; this situation is most inconvenient. Shouldn't be the determining factor regarding how we respond.
It won't be the single one, Hangtime-but I bet it's one of the things' on the table being discussed in how we deal with this.
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Game over.....
Russia 'bombs Georgian airport' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7552012.stm)
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Game over.....
Russia 'bombs Georgian airport' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7552012.stm)
From your link....
Moscow has said there can be no "consultations" with Georgia unless Georgian forces withdraw to the positions they held outside South Ossetia before Thursday.
Why do Georgian forces need to abandon territory that still technically belongs to Georgia?
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If those 70,000+ S.Osetians wanted to be Russian, shouldn't they just move north and get out of Georgia?
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If those 70,000+ S.Osetians wanted to be Russian, shouldn't they just move north and get out of Georgia?
That is one option, albeit an option that the South Ossetians probably don't feel is viable.
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This thing is starting to look worse...http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080810/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_south_ossetia (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080810/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_south_ossetia)
What I wonder is this; how bad is this gonna get for Georgia (a U.S. ally) before we drop diplomacy and try to go to their aid militarily? Will we at all? If we do, how far is our commitment gonna go? And what will the Russian response be?
BTW, Boroda, I was wondering if you could give me an answer to that question I asked earlier about the ossetians' being culturally different from the Georgians, or what is their reason for desiring independence in the first place?
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F- Georgia and good hunting Russia.
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Could get ugly if Russia presses it. One has to wonder if one or three of those nukes Russia lost when the Soviet Union collapsed might be under the control of Georgia.
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I say let em fight it out. Get it out of their systems.
They'll hug and kiss later :rolleyes:
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Looks like Russia now has pushed the georgian army out of SO. Wtg on a nice victory in a war that should never have started in the first place. The president of Georgia sounds like a mental case.
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What I wonder is this; how bad is this gonna get for Georgia (a U.S. ally) before we drop diplomacy and try to go to their aid militarily?
lol, LOL :lol :rofl :rofl :rofl
US will do nothing for them except couple speeches for press, just to look good
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Just saw this:
BAGHDAD (AFP) - Georgia's 2,000 strong contingent in Iraq began to return home on Sunday to redeploy in the conflict in its breakaway province of South Ossetia, a US military spokesman said.
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"Flights have in fact begun today and Georgian forces are redeploying," US military press spokesman Major John Hall told AFP.
"We are supporting the Georgian military units that are in Iraq in their redeployment to Georgia so that they can support requirements there during the current security situation."
The departure of the soldiers from Georgia -- the third largest contributor to coalition forces in Iraq after the United States and Britain -- will mean some adjustments for the US military.
"We had already been shuffling forces around in Wassit province before the recent events, so despite the loss of the Georgian units, although unexpected, we can and are accommodating the changes," said Hall.
Russia and Georgia were locked Sunday in an escalating battle over South Ossetia which may have already claimed over 2,000 lives amid fears it is spreading to other parts of the volatile Caucasus region.
In and around a pro-Moscow region in the west of the country, Abkhazia, the separatist government there had declared a state of war in areas of the province populated by Georgians.
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080810/wl_mideast_afp/georgiarussiaunrestiraqmilitary_080810172807;_ylt=AmAVvqa6f.peIDqe4p9prGBbbBAF (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080810/wl_mideast_afp/georgiarussiaunrestiraqmilitary_080810172807;_ylt=AmAVvqa6f.peIDqe4p9prGBbbBAF)
However, It doesn't say how they are going home. Civilian flights? Their own transport? U.S.A.F.?
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Been following this on the shortwave, made a few contacts on 80M out of the Dx window in the area.
The Russian Propaganda Machine has been running overtime, especially in Europe. The Georgians are getting the very short end of the stick... and it looks like the Ukraine is going to get in this too. Seems the Georgians are not exactly well liked by their neighbors...
...wonder why.
As for the US involvement aspect; depends entirely on how far the Russians push. Last night I heard from a station down there that the Russian Black Sea Fleet has blockaded the Georgian ports; airstrikes are going in routinely... Georgia's air defense capability is wiped out. They have a decent ground force... or had; they're losing most of it and it's logistical capability to Russian Air.
It ain't looking good for Georgia.
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I'll add to this really quick, It looks' like the Russians might have sunk a Georgian missile boat.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080810/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_south_ossetia (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080810/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_south_ossetia)
It looks' on the outside like the Georgians' are trying to pull out, and re-instate the cease-fire, but the Russians' won't let 'em.
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Mr. Saakaschwili of Georgia wanted to conquer South Ossetia with a blitzkrieg invasion. One day before the Olympic games he started his idiotic attack and his forces killed hundreds of Russians.
What the hell he expected ? That the Russians would accept that a mad man orders to kill Russians and do nothing ??
The reaction of Russia is absolutely logical. The Russians have to protect the Russian people in S-Osetia.
Every nation in the same situation would have to do the same.
This Saakaschwili has to be put in front of a war-crime-tribunal for all the dead on both sides.
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The Russian Propaganda Machine has been running overtime, especially in Europe.
explain please
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Looks like Russia now has pushed the georgian army out of SO. Wtg on a nice victory in a war that should never have started in the first place. The president of Georgia sounds like a mental case.
Please tell me Nilsen, what business the Russian army has pushing the Georgians out of their own territory? South Ossetia and the other rebel province are just that, rebels. No one in the international community has recognized either province as a legitimate country. The Russians should have never jumped into SO in the first place.
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The reaction of Russia is absolutely logical. The Russians have to protect the Russian people in S-Osetia.
Except it's not Russian territory......it's Georgian territory. The Russians have violated the territory of Russia, stop listening to the Boroda Propaganda Machine.
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The thing I find most disturbing from the news in NZ (our media hmmm) reports oh no the oil pipeline. this world needs to be destroyed and started over. We suck.
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Except it's not Russian territory......it's Georgian territory. The Russians have violated the territory of Russia, stop listening to the Boroda Propaganda Machine.
I dont have to listen to any propaganda machine. Just to listen to facts.
1. The vast majority of the people in S-Ossetia refuse to be part of Georgia. Instead they still have their russian passports and want to be autonomeous or part of Russia.
2. The georgian mad president ordered a massive bombardment of S-Ossetia and more than 1400 civilians were killed in the first day of his blitzkrieg attempt.
3. Because of this act of ordering a massacre of civilians he disqualified himself of being president of these people.
The S-Ossetians are protected by the russians and its very good that the russians did not react in a slow EU-debate but startet the liberation of S-Ossetia by kicking the invasion forces out.
I think the ossetians are much more glad that russian soldiers are patrolling in their streets and protecting them instead of georgian troops of "their" nation who killed and crippled thousands of innocent civilians by order of this mad president Saakaschwili .
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Please tell me Nilsen, what business the Russian army has pushing the Georgians out of their own territory? South Ossetia and the other rebel province are just that, rebels. No one in the international community has recognized either province as a legitimate country. The Russians should have never jumped into SO in the first place.
It has been answered already in the thread. No need to repeat again.
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I dont have to listen to any propaganda machine. Just to listen to facts.
1. The vast majority of the people in S-Ossetia refuse to be part of Georgia. Instead they still have their russian passports and want to be autonomeous or part of Russia.
2. The georgian mad president ordered a massive bombardment of S-Ossetia and more than 1400 civilians were killed in the first day of his blitzkrieg attempt.
3. Because of this act of ordering a massacre of civilians he disqualified himself of being president of these people.
The S-Ossetians are protected by the russians and its very good that the russians did not react in a slow EU-debate but startet the liberation of S-Ossetia by kicking the invasion forces out.
I think the ossetians are much more glad that russian soldiers are patrolling in their streets and protecting them instead of georgian troops of "their" nation who killed and crippled thousands of innocent civilians by order of this mad president Saakaschwili .
The facts.....are under dispute as to who started what. Both sides claim the other side started it. Russia has been suspected of trying to instigate things for some time now. As far as the South Ossetians not wanting to be part of Georgia? Who cares? Let them move to Russia if they want to be Russian citizens. No one is helping the Turkish Kurds to be independent or any other minority group in many other countries to be independent. This is nothing more than a power play by Putin and the Russians.
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As for the US involvement aspect; depends entirely on how far the Russians push. Last night I heard from a station down there that the Russian Black Sea Fleet has blockaded the Georgian ports; airstrikes are going in routinely... Georgia's air defense capability is wiped out. They have a decent ground force... or had; they're losing most of it and it's logistical capability to Russian Air.
It ain't looking good for Georgia.
I completely agree. Georgia has reportedly pulled out of South Ossetia according to BBC, yet airstrikes continue. Russians aircraft have hit the main airport hours before French and Finnish peace delegations are due to arrive there.
If you ask me, this is fast becoming a Russian land grab and those congratulating the Russians would be advised to remember past history and 'anschluss'.
The Georgians will be lucky to come out of this with autonomy in tact, nevermind territorial integrity. Regardless of the apparent stupidity of the Georgian leadership, Russia should not be allowed to simply violate sovereignty - especially as there actions look anything but 'temporary'.
I don't trust the Russians as far as I can throw them.
...and more than 1400 civilians were killed in the first day of his blitzkrieg attempt.
This cannot be verified at this time. There are no independent observers in Ossetia. And no, Russians don't count as being independent. Neither do South Ossetians.
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It has been answered already in the thread. No need to repeat again.
Then please point it out, because I sure don't see it as being answered.
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Forgive my ignorance, but how are you getting long range contacts on 80m? I thought 80m was "near vertical incedence".
Good on Russia. If Russia continues in it's role as peace keeper inasmuch as securing S. Ossetia and does not press to conquer Georgia, Russia will come out of this gleaming. And rightfully so. But much remains to be seen, I'm guardedly optomistic.
Have to wonder what the georgian leaders were thinking. I mean, even if they were responding to some sepratist artillery, the response was totally disproportionate. The manner in which they nearly raized that city makes me reconsider what first seemed hyperbolic; the russian's accusation of ethnic cleansing intentions. Again I come back to, what they hell were they thinking? What did they think they were going to accomplish? How did they expect to reassimilate S. Ossetia when 90% of the population violently want's a reunified Ossetia, seperate of Georgia. Georgia leaders know that they can't stand against Russia, that's why they've allready withdrawn and redeployed in a defense posture. Had they pre-planned to do this? Did they really expect a western alliance to go to war on their behalf? I just can't figure a motive at this point. Any thoughts?
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This is one of the latest stories on Yahoo news:
By MISHA DZHINDZHIKHASHVILI, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 25 minutes ago
TBILISI, Georgia - Russia expanded its bombing blitz to the Georgian capital, deployed ships off the coast and, a Georgian official said, sent tanks from the separatist region of South Ossetia into Georgian territory, heading toward a border city before being turned back Sunday.
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Russia also claimed its forces sank a Georgian missile boat that was trying to attack Russian ships in the Black Sea, news agencies reported.
U.S.-allied Georgia called a unilateral cease-fire — "We are not crazy," said President Mikhail Saakashvili — and claimed its troops were retreating Sunday from the disputed province of South Ossetia in the face of Russia's far superior firepower. Russia said the soldiers were "not withdrawing but regrouping" and refused to recognize a truce.
The Russian Defense Ministry refused to comment to The Associated Press on the reports of the sinking and Georgian officials could not immediately be reached. If confirmed, it could mark a serious escalation of the fighting that has raged between Russia and Georgia over South Ossetia.
If this is true...The russians' need to quit pushing now. The reason I say this, is if they initiate an invasion of Georgia, it's gonna force Bush into a corner; They've declared they're intent to join NATO, and they have contributed to our situation in Iraq. If we let them dangle on this, what's that say about the U.S.? And, I think that GWB's gotta be thinking this. I just don't know what plans' that the Joint Chiefs' have to respond. Maybe none, indicated by the way Bush's talking. If he's going to have to use our military, he's gonna have to act quick. Diplomacy doesn't have much time in this situation.
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Word in news over here says that Russia will try to force a regime change in Georgia before they stop. They want a more Russia friendly regime.
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Forgive my ignorance, but how are you getting long range contacts on 80m? I thought 80m was "near vertical incedence".
Nope... NVIS is an antenna system that favors skywave propagation instead of groundwave. Groundwave is long haul, NVIS short haul. With a kilowatt or two, I can get into russia and europe without much difficulty when the band goes long late at night here; with the groundwave antenna system I'm running I can hear stations working at as low as 100 watts half the world away when the weather isn't causing too much static.
Good on Russia. If Russia continues in it's role as peace keeper inasmuch as securing S. Ossetia and does not press to conquer Georgia, Russia will come out of this gleaming. And rightfully so. But much remains to be seen, I'm guardedly optomistic.
Have to wonder what the georgian leaders were thinking. I mean, even if they were responding to some sepratist artillery, the response was totally disproportionate. The manner in which they nearly raized that city makes me reconsider what first seemed hyperbolic; the russian's accusation of ethnic cleansing intentions. Again I come back to, what they hell were they thinking? What did they think they were going to accomplish? How did they expect to reassimilate S. Ossetia when 90% of the population violently want's a reunified Ossetia, seperate of Georgia. Georgia leaders know that they can't stand against Russia, that's why they've allready withdrawn and redeployed in a defense posture. Had they pre-planned to do this? Did they really expect a western alliance to go to war on their behalf? I just can't figure a motive at this point. Any thoughts?
I strongly disagree on the appropriateness of Russia's involvement in the Georgian dispute over who controls their own territory. It's Georgian territory, and it's a Georgian civil war. Would we tolerate Russian military support for latino rebels in a southwestern US separatist movement? How would we react to the flow of military hardware into rebel hands coming from russia or mexico??
The military buildup of the Ossetian separatists is a Russian construct... and Georgia, rightly; considered it a challenge to sovereignty over their own territory. The separatists would not be a serious sovereignty threat without Russian support; military, political and economic. The Georgians were well within their rights to attempt to put an end to it.
So, here we go; another cold war style proxy war... only Europe is the scene; not some south-east asian rice paddy or an african backwater. And the stakes this time are VERY high...
This has got to be putting big pressure on Ukraine and the other former eastern block non-nato countries... how Gerogia goes will be likely how they go.... forcefully re-introduced to Russian control? Or do they fight for the rights of sovereign democracies by all out support for Georgia; IN Georgia, rather than on their own frontiers? How NATO reacts and how Free Europe reacts is crucial... do we let Russia whip up on Georgia and possibly lose all influence in the region? Or will we fulfill the promise we made, and halt the invader by whatever means necessary?
After listening carefully to the Russian Propaganda (shortwave links below) and the majority of the Euro based respondents here; it would seem that the Russians will succeed... certainly; their propaganda machine is winning.
http://mt-shortwave.blogspot.com/2008/08/hot-spot-dxing-georgia-russia-conflict.html (http://mt-shortwave.blogspot.com/2008/08/hot-spot-dxing-georgia-russia-conflict.html)
So... the current 64 dollar question: Will Russia get away with inciting insurrection and invasion in a neighboring country?
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Now I'm confused! I thought it was the Russians that completely destroyed Grozny killing thousands, carpet-bombing and using rocket artillery against apartment blocks?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v673/kavkaz5/grozny1.jpg)
Looks like they're using the same tactics in Georgia.
(http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/WORLD/europe/08/10/georgia.russia/art.georgia.war2.ap.jpg)
A burning apartment building, hit by a Russian airstrike, in the northern Georgian town of Gori.
ack-ack
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Cowards who can only mass-kill unarmed civilians.
I wonder how many medals the Soviets gave out to the proud warriors of the Rodina for poisoning civilian water wells in Afghanistan or making aerial dropped mines to look like children's toys.
ack-ack
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<< BREAKING NEWS >>
I just called my friend in Atlanta and he said NO RUSSIAN TROOPS THERE!
This whole thing is made up!!!
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:rofl :aok
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<< BREAKING NEWS >>
I just called my friend in Atlanta and he said NO RUSSIAN TROOPS THERE!
This whole thing is made up!!!
The Russians heard that Sherman already burned it, so no reason to go there.
I wonder if Boroda supports Mexican Troops border incursions to ensure the safety of Mexican nationals living here.
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Right now Georgian forces are bombing Tshinvali using BM-21 Grad. They officially announced hostilities against South Osetia. Russian peacekeeping forces are still not involved, but we'll see.
This is insane. I see a full-scale world crisis beginning.
Tom Clancy's a prophet.
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Imho Bush (and the US) could save alot of face by backing Georgia in this time of crisis, be it with troops or military hardware. I mean, Georgia, an Ally of the USA that are fighting in Iraq alongside US and coalition forces, Georgia wich Bush frantically lobbyed to get into Nato.
If he sit backs and just watches this one, then i dunno really.
If you compare this to the middle east conflict, then its quite clear that this should warrant a military responce. But i doubt he wants to wage war against a real enemy. Having fought only ragheads from the mediaval times for so long, i dont think the US military grunts would cope with this conflict, they have gotten too used to the middle east style of "warfare" and the grunts would be up for a big shock in a war wheres theres a real enemy.
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The facts.....are under dispute as to who started what. Both sides claim the other side started it. Russia has been suspected of trying to instigate things for some time now. As far as the South Ossetians not wanting to be part of Georgia? Who cares? Let them move to Russia if they want to be Russian citizens. No one is helping the Turkish Kurds to be independent or any other minority group in many other countries to be independent. This is nothing more than a power play by Putin and the Russians.
Apparently you have not heard about the Albanians and Kosovo?
Face it, folks. However unsavory some of us feel Russia's actions may be, they DO have a precedent they are following -- our own.
NATO and the US bombed and isolated Serbia, a traditional friend of Russia, in the name of some break-away rebels. Now Russia supports some break-away rebels in a NATO wannabe country. The symmetry is too perfect.
Doesn't make it right, but certainly makes it understandable.
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Horsepucky.
More russian propaganda..
No Georgians are shoveling dirt on mass graves. Georgians have not been practicing ethnic cleansing.
The horrific circumstances that lead us into the Serbian situation on the moslem side differ HUGELY with what's happening in Georgia.
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Horsepucky.
More russian propaganda..
No Georgians are shoveling dirt on mass graves. Georgians have not been practicing ethnic cleansing.
The horrific circumstances that lead us into the Serbian situation on the moslem side differ HUGELY with what's happening in Georgia.
2k dead this week.
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2k dead this week.
^^ Russian Propaganda puppet.
Repeating... no Georgians are emptying villages into mass graves. No Georgian troops are raping and killing innocent unarmed civilians. There's a war going on there, people are dying in the crossfire, in the artillery barrages and in the airstrikes. There's a democratic American allied nation there; putting down an illegally armed insurgency and THEN attempting to repel an invader.. you expect them to do it with paint balls?
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<< BREAKING NEWS >>
I just called my friend in Atlanta and he said NO RUSSIAN TROOPS THERE!
Been to Atlanta, the Ruskies wouldn't stand a chance in that town. No need for the Army to do anything! LOL!
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^^ Russian Propaganda puppet.
Repeating... no Georgians are emptying villages into mass graves. No Georgian troops are raping and killing innocent unarmed civilians. There's a war going on there, people are dying in the crossfire, in the artillery barrages and in the airstrikes. There's a democratic American allied nation there; putting down an illegally armed insurgency and THEN attempting to repel an invader.. you expect them to do it with paint balls?
Slow your roll, holmes. If you have basis to your arrogance/ignorance, I'd love to read it.
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Horsepucky.
More russian propaganda..
No Georgians are shoveling dirt on mass graves. Georgians have not been practicing ethnic cleansing.
The horrific circumstances that lead us into the Serbian situation on the moslem side differ HUGELY with what's happening in Georgia.
You miss the point. Regardless of the events leading up to it, the Serbs have seen a portion of their country taken away from them under threat of more NATO bombing.
Russia warned at the time that it was a dangerous precedent, by the way.
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Wow. Just wow.
The Serbs? How easily the comparison is made, how very easily Hangtime's point is ignored.
There would have been no NATO involvement at all if it had been a civil war. Clearly, it was more than that. It was genocide. THAT'S what drew the attention of the world and eventually led to NATO involvement.
Think about this: It was so bad in Serbia that the FRENCH sent combat troops. That's really saying something there.
And before you go all huffin' and puffin' you can search this very BBS and find posts of mine where I agree with Boroda that the NATO involvement was a clear violation of the NATO charter.
Nonethe less, to compare the slaughter by the Serbs to the Georgia/South Osetia tiff is ludicrous. Jeebus, is history that quickly forgotten?
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<< Breaking News>>
Atlanta Falcons stopped training camp upon hearing the news of Russian Invasion. Georgia Governor thinks Florida has something to do with it. Lots of confusion...State Troopers still looking for troops but can't find them.
I'll post more when my "sources" check in.
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You miss the point. Regardless of the events leading up to it, the Serbs have seen a portion of their country taken away from them under threat of more NATO bombing.
Russia warned at the time that it was a dangerous precedent, by the way.
Regardless of the events leading up to it? Are you smoking crack? seriously.....
The events in Kosovo is what prompted NATO to do something. The ethnic cleansing in Kosovo was no longer going to be tolerated. So far there is no third party verification of any genocide or ethnic cleansing on the part of the Georgians, only allegations by the Russians. South Ossetia is still a province of Georgia. (It won't be for long, Russia will either annex it or unify it with North Ossetia imo.)
Who started this round of fighting is still in dispute.
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Regardless of the events leading up to it? Are you smoking crack? seriously.....
The events in Kosovo is what prompted NATO to do something. The ethnic cleansing in Kosovo was no longer going to be tolerated. So far there is no third party verification of any genocide or ethnic cleansing on the part of the Georgians, only allegations by the Russians. South Ossetia is still a province of Georgia. (It won't be for long, Russia will either annex it or unify it with North Ossetia imo.)
Who started this round of fighting is still in dispute.
Georgia just made counter ethnic cleansing accusations against the Russians.
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I doubt the RUSSIANS care very much about what did or did not cause NATO involvement in Kosovo.
What they did care about at the time was the result. NATO is supporting the break-up of Serbia, against Serbia's wishes.
They are now doing the same in Georgia. Equal result. Tit for tat.
It is so clearly obvious.
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Slow your roll, holmes. If you have basis to your arrogance/ignorance, I'd love to read it.
Show me your source for a coupla thousand massacred unarmed south ossetians.
...in fact, while we're showing rolls, 'holmes', just which banned personality are you this week?
You miss the point. Regardless of the events leading up to it, the Serbs have seen a portion of their country taken away from them under threat of more NATO bombing.
Did I? Or did you? When you line folks up in front of a pit and commit genocide on a national scale, harsh steps must ensue. Seen any evidence for any kind of Gerogian Genocide?
Russia warned at the time that it was a dangerous precedent, by the way.
So was Hiroshima. Ukraine has nukes. Still wanna play the precedent game?
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They are now doing the same in Georgia.
Except of course that in this case there is no possible reason to justify their actions.
Unlike the Serbian slaughter, there's no proof of any Georgian slaughter.
You can wear your blinders, point only to the result and pretend it's the same but again, that's a ludicrous position.
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So was Hiroshima. Ukraine has nukes. Still wanna play the precedent game?
I am not playing any precedent "game." It isn't my game to play.
I think you have misunderstood my statement when I said Russia's actions were "understandable." I meant it follows a certain logic. I never said nor meant to imply I agreed with their actions. Clarify matters for you?
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Google Earth is so awesome for finding out where these places are
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I I meant it follows a certain logic.
Sure, it follows a certain Russian logic. We want it, we'll take it, we're on the UNSC and you can't do jack about it.
That logic.
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I am not playing any precedent "game." It isn't my game to play.
I think you have misunderstood my statement when I said Russia's actions were "understandable." I meant it follows a certain logic. I never said nor meant to imply I agreed with their actions. Clarify matters for you?
When I was a kid, my folks taught me that 'just because Billy gets away with crapping in the wheaties without having his bellybutton paddled, doesn't mean you can'.
Your intent is to indicate that Russia's actions in Georgia are excusable by a moronic dodge like 'precedent'? It didn't work... when I was a kid, or for you; now, and it won't for the Russians, either.
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When I was a kid, my folks taught me that 'just because Billy gets away with crapping in the wheaties without having his bellybutton paddled, doesn't mean you can'.
Your intent is to indicate that Russia's actions in Georgia are excusable by a moronic dodge like 'precedent'? It didn't work... when I was a kid, or for you; now, and it won't for the Russians, either.
I take it "understandable" is not a word you fully understand?
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Sure, it follows a certain Russian logic. We want it, we'll take it, we're on the UNSC and you can't do jack about it.
That logic.
Pretty much, yes.
I just don't think you can ignore the Kosovo situation as a pre-cursor. I think the Russians are trying to make a point that it is not a one way street with NATO and the west setting the standards of what is and is not acceptable, and whose territory should be forcibly split and whose shouldn't. Maybe if there had not been an independence declaration in Kosovo, Russia would still be sitting on the sideline in Osetia.
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When I was a kid, my folks taught me that 'just because Billy gets away with crapping in the wheaties without having his bellybutton paddled, doesn't mean you can'.
Your intent is to indicate that Russia's actions in Georgia are excusable by a moronic dodge like 'precedent'? It didn't work... when I was a kid, or for you; now, and it won't for the Russians, either.
:rofl Did I excuse them?
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Except of course that in this case there is no possible reason to justify their actions.
Unlike the Serbian slaughter, there's no proof of any Georgian slaughter.
You can wear your blinders, point only to the result and pretend it's the same but again, that's a ludicrous position.
Exactly.
I just don't think you can ignore the Kosovo situation as a pre-cursor.
In order to compare 2 incidents, you have to compare them as a whole. In the former Yugoslavia genocide and ethnic cleansing was rampant on all three sides. (Serbian, Croats and Muslims all participated to one degree or another.) In Kosovo, NATO said the genocide and ethnic cleansing stops here. The end result was that Kosovo gained independence. However, w/o the genocide and ethic cleansing, Kosovo still would be a part of Serbia today there would have been no involvement by NATO. (There was undisputed evidence of the ethnic cleansing going on in Kosovo.)
In South Osetia there is no evidence at this time of genocide or ethnic cleansing. Only allegations. There is no evidence of who started this round of hostilities, again, only allegations.
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In order to compare 2 incidents, you have to compare them as a whole. In the former Yugoslavia genocide and ethnic cleansing was rampant on all three sides. (Serbian, Croats and Muslims all participated to one degree or another.) In Kosovo, NATO said the genocide and ethnic cleansing stops here. The end result was that Kosovo gained independence. However, w/o the genocide and ethic cleansing, Kosovo still would be a part of Serbia today there would have been no involvement by NATO. (There was undisputed evidence of the ethnic cleansing going on in Kosovo.)
All fair, but do you believe that makes any difference to the Russians? I doubt that registers with them at all. Nor do I expect anyone in the "west" will be able to convince them that there is a difference. Quite the opposite, actually. If NATO tries to support Georgia's right to keep Osetia while supporting Kosovo's independence from Serbia, I fully suspect Russia will consider it to be "selective application" of the principle of a population's right to self-determination, and it will feed into the persecution complex the Russian psyche already seems to possess.
Nothing good will come of this.
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I take it "understandable" is not a word you fully understand?
Not when it's used as an excuse for the inexcusable.
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I just saw this bit:
By Tom Lasseter and Jonathan S. Landay, McClatchy Newspapers
2 hours, 52 minutes ago
GORI, Georgia — Russia pressed its invasion of Georgia by land, sea and air for a third day Sunday, striking far beyond contested South Ossetia as the Kremlin brushed aside a cease-fire offer and disputed Georgia's claim to have pulled its forces out of the rebel enclave.
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Russian jets bombed near Tbilisi , the Georgian capital, including civilian housing, military bases, factories and the international airport, according to Georgia officials. Also, Russian warships deployed off the Black Sea coast, sinking a Georgian missile boat that approached them, state-run Russian news media said.
Russian troops and tanks, meanwhile, took control of Tskinvali, the devastated capital of South Ossetia , according to Russian state-run media, and there were reports that an armored column tried to push out of the separatist enclave's boundary toward the city of Gori before being turned back by Georgian forces. The military campaign also expanded, with Russian troops entering Abkhazia , another separatist province.
Tensions between the United States and Russia sharpened as the Bush administration suggested that Russia's objective goes beyond securing South Ossetia to the ousting of President Mikhail Saakashvili , who has close ties to the United States and is seeking admission to NATO .
Russia denied the charge, repeating that it is obliged to stop "numerous war crimes" against civilians, many of who carry Russian passports, end a "major humanitarian disaster," and restore the situation to where it was before a Georgian military incursion on Friday.
Georgian police erected a checkpoint on the main road outside Gori, and warned travelers that the situation around the city of 50,000, home to a major military base, was too dangerous. During the day, Russian warplanes strafed the city.
Scores of Georgian tanks and troop-carrying trucks roared down the road in the direction of the Russian advance in the pre-dawn dark Monday. Dozens of other trucks were parked on the roadside. Four truck-mounted missile launchers sat just outside Gori, where troops shouted for cars to turn off their lights.
Georgian troops moved last week to seize South Ossetia , a mountainous enclave bordering Russia , after clashes with separatist fighters. Moscow , saying Georgian forces killed Russian peacekeeping troops and civilians, responded by launching missile, artillery and air attacks and pouring hundreds of tanks, armored vehicles and troops across the border.
The tiny former Soviet republic, nestled between Turkey and Russia , is considered strategically important because it is located on key energy and trade routes to central Asia . Russia , which ruled Georgia for nearly two centuries before the Soviet Union's collapse in 1991, considers the region as its backyard and opposes Georgia's admission to NATO .
Separatists began agitating for the secession of South Ossetia in the Soviet Union's waning days, igniting clashes with Georgian security forces that continued after Georgia became independent in 1991. Russia deployed peacekeeping troops in 1992. Negotiations to resolve continuing disputes have made no progress.
Russian troops have also been protecting Abkhazia , another rebel enclave, and reinforcements were added over the weekend, the military said. Moscow -backed rebels loosed "massive artillery fire" on Sunday at Georgian units just inside the province, an Abkhaz defense official told Interfax, a Russian state news service. Saakashvili accused the Russians of moving 100 tanks into Abkhazia .
As Russia moved more troops and tanks across its border into South Ossetia on Sunday, Saakashvili announced a withdrawal of Georgia troops from the province.
Georgia , he said, was also proclaiming a cease-fire, was ready to have it forces return to their positions before the fighting erupted and would sign an agreement for a peaceful resolution of the dispute.
"We need to stop hostility. We don't need further military action. We need to stop it. We need to bring back peace. And a cease-fire is about both sides," Saakashvili said on CNN .
But Russian officials rejected Saakashvili's claim of a troop withdrawal, saying that Georgian forces were continuing to fight.
Russian Deputy Prime Minister Grigory Karasin , speaking to reporters in Moscow , said that Moscow would discuss "all further issues" once Georgia pulled all of its forces out of "the combat zone" and immediately signed "a binding agreement on the non-use of force."
The United States and the European Union stepped up diplomatic efforts to end the bloodshed, estimated by Russians to have claimed more than 2,000 lives.
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was in touch with senior Georgian, Russian and European officials. French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner , whose country is the current EU president, flew into Tbilisi on a peace mission only 30 minutes after the Russian air strike on the international airport.
At the same time, the Bush administration, which has equipped and trained the Georgian army, sharpened its response to what it called Russia's "disproportionate" response over South Ossetia .
U.S. C-17s began flying home the 2,000 Georgian troops serving in Iraq . And Deputy National Security Advisor Jim Jeffrey , with President Bush in Beijing for the Olympics, warned "that if the disproportionate and dangerous escalation on the Russian side continues . . . this will have a significant long-term impact on U.S.-Russian relations."
Speaking at a meeting of the U.N. Security Council , U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad said Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov admitted in a phone call with Secretary of Rice that Moscow wants Saakashvili replaced.
"'Saakashvili must go,'" Khalizad quoted Lavrov as telling Rice.
Asked by Khalilizad if Russia sought "regime change," Russian Ambassador Vitali Churkin replied tartly, "Regime change is purely an American invention."
Khalilzad, whose native Afghanistan was invaded and occupied by the former Soviet Union in 1979, later told reporters: "The days of overthrowing leaders by military means in Europe , those days are gone."
U.S. military officials were alarmed by Sunday's developments, calling reports of Russia's movements in Gori and its possible attempts to overthrow Saakashvili's government "far beyond" its stated objectives, one senior military official told McClatchy .
http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20080810/wl_mcclatchy/3014671_1;_ylt=A9j8eOOKnp9ITn8AXwCspph4 (http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20080810/wl_mcclatchy/3014671_1;_ylt=A9j8eOOKnp9ITn8AXwCspph4)
I don't see where you guys' are really even drawing a connection between this and Bosnia, because in Bosnia, It was a NATO/UN intervention in a civil war. This, is an invasion by a foreign power with the aim of overthrowing/conquering a neighboring country. Especially, when you see where the Russians' are ignoring pleas for a cease-fire.
I wonder which carriers' we have on station in the Med right now...?
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Pretty much, yes.
I just don't think you can ignore the Kosovo situation as a pre-cursor. I think the Russians are trying to make a point that it is not a one way street with NATO and the west setting the standards of what is and is not acceptable, and whose territory should be forcibly split and whose shouldn't. Maybe if there had not been an independence declaration in Kosovo, Russia would still be sitting on the sideline in Osetia.
Totally disagree. I think Boroda will drop by and pretty much confirm what I'm about to type in his own inimitable way.
The Russians would be doing what they are doing now in Osetia/Georgia if Nato/the West had never ever gone anywhere near the Serbian affair.
Put it another way: if the Serbian affair had never happened at all, they'd be doing what they're doing in Osetia/Georgia.
They're not making a point with the West. They acting in their national interest to control resources in the region.
Any wagers on the price of oil tomorrow?
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Totally disagree. I think Boroda will drop by and pretty much confirm what I'm about to type in his own inimitable way.
The Russians would be doing what they are doing now in Osetia/Georgia if Nato/the West had never ever gone anywhere near the Serbian affair.
Put it another way: if the Serbian affair had never happened at all, they'd be doing what they're doing in Osetia/Georgia.
They're not making a point with the West. They acting in their national interest to control resources in the region.
Any wagers on the price of oil tomorrow?
Too much depends' on whatever actions' the U.S. takes, Toad.
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Totally disagree. I think Boroda will drop by and pretty much confirm what I'm about to type in his own inimitable way.
The Russians would be doing what they are doing now in Osetia/Georgia if Nato/the West had never ever gone anywhere near the Serbian affair.
Put it another way: if the Serbian affair had never happened at all, they'd be doing what they're doing in Osetia/Georgia.
They're not making a point with the West. They acting in their national interest to control resources in the region.
I won't deny the possibility this may have happened anyway. But if you look at the language they are using in Frode's post, it is clear to me they are throwing all our "reasons" for Kosovo back at us. They are claiming war crimes against the Georgian president, for goodness sake. What did the "West" do with Serbian President Milosevic?
Still looks like a tit-for-tat to me.
And no, Hangtime, I did not say that makes it right. :rolleyes:
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$10 to your favorite charity or mine, me wagering that the US will NOT take military action involving US units in combat.
We may fly in supplies, we may supply some special forces or a few advisors. You WILL NOT see regular US combat forces engage Russian forces at even company level.
We may try to talk them out of it but I doubt the Russians care very much what we say.
I'll go further and say that even if we were not involved in any way in Afghanistan or Iraq right now, you still would not see US combat units fighting Russian combat units in Georgia or South Osetia.
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I won't deny the possibility this may have happened anyway.
I would change that to probability.
They use Kosovo as a fig leaf to cover their nakedness. It's all they have but it's still a fig leaf.
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There's the other Gorilla in the region.
Ukraine.
Wonder what they'll do?
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Nothing.
Well, OK, they'll talk loud and wave their hands a lot.
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Horsepucky.
More russian propaganda..
No Georgians are shoveling dirt on mass graves. Georgians have not been practicing ethnic cleansing.
The horrific circumstances that lead us into the Serbian situation on the moslem side differ HUGELY with what's happening in Georgia.
But what do you think would happen in S. Ossetia if there were no peace keepers there? How is Georgia going to assimulate S. Ossetia where virtually the entire population hates georgia, and the feeling is mutual? Ossetia was divided in two by the soviet union, the north in one state, the south stuck with georgia. They are not georgians, they have their own language which was banned by the georgian government that they got stuck with after the USSR disolved. Ossetia was ossetia before there was a soviet union. But most importantly, why don't they deserve the right to self determination?
Possibly the most flagrant hypocrasy of the whole affair is that Georgia is capitalizing on the results of soviet oppression.
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$10 to your favorite charity or mine, me wagering that the US will NOT take military action involving US units in combat.
We may fly in supplies, we may supply some special forces or a few advisors. You WILL NOT see regular US combat forces engage Russian forces at even company level.
We may try to talk them out of it but I doubt the Russians care very much what we say.
I'll go further and say that even if we were not involved in any way in Afghanistan or Iraq right now, you still would not see US combat units fighting Russian combat units in Georgia or South Osetia.
Part of me wants to take your bet, part of me doesn't. That oil pipeline running through there is one thing. And, having a gov't. friendly to the U.S. in that region is another. However, other than maybe doing whatever we can with carrier airpower, I think that we don't have any assets' available to move to the region at this moment; Unless, of course, we can call on more help from the NATO nations. And I don't know how any of the Euro countries' will take this.
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But what do you think would happen in S. Ossetia if there were no peace keepers there? How is Georgia going to assimulate S. Ossetia where virtually the entire population hates georgia, and the feeling is mutual? Ossetia was divided in two by the soviet union, the north in one state, the south stuck with georgia. They are not georgians, they have their own language which was banned by the georgian government that they got stuck with after the USSR disolved. Ossetia was ossetia before there was a soviet union. But most importantly, why don't they deserve the right to self determination?
Possibly the most flagrant hypocrasy of the whole affair is that Georgia is capitalizing on the results of soviet oppression.
Thank you, Suave. You just answered a question I asked about 2-3 pages' ago.
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But what do you think would happen in S. Ossetia if there were no peace keepers there? How is Georgia going to assimulate S. Ossetia where virtually the entire population hates georgia, and the feeling is mutual? Ossetia was divided in two by the soviet union, the north in one state, the south stuck with georgia. They are not georgians, they have their own language which was banned by the georgian government that they got stuck with after the USSR disolved. Ossetia was ossetia before there was a soviet union. But most importantly, why don't they deserve the right to self determination?
Possibly the most flagrant hypocrasy of the whole affair is that Georgia is capitalizing on the results of soviet oppression.
Do you have some links for this stuff? If so, I would be interested in reading them.
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All fair, but do you believe that makes any difference to the Russians? I doubt that registers with them at all. Nor do I expect anyone in the "west" will be able to convince them that there is a difference. Quite the opposite, actually. If NATO tries to support Georgia's right to keep Osetia while supporting Kosovo's independence from Serbia, I fully suspect Russia will consider it to be "selective application" of the principle of a population's right to self-determination, and it will feed into the persecution complex the Russian psyche already seems to possess.
Nothing good will come of this.
Doesn't really matter if it makes any difference to the Russians or not. The facts are the facts.
There was a history of ethnic cleansing and genocide throughout the region that used to be Yugoslavia. There is no history of that in Georgia, so the two situations are not similar.
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Doesn't really matter if it makes any difference to the Russians or not. The facts are the facts.
There was a history of ethnic cleansing and genocide throughout the region that used to be Yugoslavia. There is no history of that in Georgia, so the two situations are not similar.
Actually there is a history of it if I recall correctly.
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Possibly the most flagrant hypocrasy of the whole affair is that Georgia is capitalizing on the results of soviet oppression.
Horsecrap. Ossetia is a soviet construct. It's comparable to an Indian Reservation or a Tribal Enclave here in the US. He's a little history lesson:
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/63/129.html (http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/63/129.html)
The folks looking to 'capitalize' are the Russians, Suave.
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Do you have some links for this stuff? If so, I would be interested in reading them.
I had to fall back on Wiki, but check this out Elfie:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetians)
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I had to fall back on Wiki, but check this out Elfie:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetians)
Thanks, checking it out now. (Nothing wrong with Wiki as long as the articles are documented. :) )
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Actually there is a history of it if I recall correctly.
Links?
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Actually Georgia as it is now is a soviet construct.
Of course russia stands to profit from it. That's why they're neck deep in it. And that's why the US has it's hands in it. That doesn't change the fact that ossetians want to BE ossetians IN ossetia. Just like the slovaks in slovakia and the slovenians in slovenia. And why shouldn't they? It's not like northern ireland or even kosovo, here you have a 90% majority of an ethnically, culturally homogenous region that just want's it's independence and reunification. Just like the other former states have gotten. But this time it just happens to benefit russia and not nato. And?
The peace keeping force has been in ossetia for over a decade. What do you think would happen to the ossetians if the russians pulled out? Georgia want's russia out of the way so it can get back to the georgification of ossetia, hard to do without altering the demographics of ossetia to put it clinically. I think you need to look at this more objectively. If russia was aiming to occupy georgia proper then that would be a whole different story, but right now they're just declawing her.
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Thanks for the link Hangtime.
South Ossetia covers 3.900 square km and in 1989 had 99.000 inhabitants, 66 percent Ossets and 29 percent Georgians. Rural population among Ossets: 34 per cent (1989).
Revolutionary activity had began in South Ossetia as early as 1903. S. Kirov directed Bolshevik activities in the region from 1909, and shortly after the outbreak of the February Revolution a soviet was formed at Vladikavkaz.
The South Ossetia became a part of the Georgian Menshevik Republic with the break up of the Russian empire in 1918, while the North formed a part of the Terek Soviet Republic.
Fierce fighting took place in The North Caucasus during the ensuing civil war (1918-21) and in January , 1919 white forces of General Denikin occupied North Ossetia . In late March, 1920, however, Vladikavkaz fell to the Red Army , and on November 17, 1920 northern Ossetia was included in the newly formed Mountain ASSR as the Ossetian Okrug . On July 7, 1924 Osetia was reorganized as the North Ossetian Autonomous Oblast and on December 5, 1936, as the North Ossetian Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic. The south Ossetian Oblast was organized within the Georgian republic on April 20,1922.
In 1936, North Ossetia was upgraded to Autonomous Republic, which in fact had no meaning during Stalin's dictatorship. The Ossetians were loyal to the Soviet Union during World War II, when the Germans pressed to reach the oil fields of Baku and Grozny. After the war they were rewarded in that their republic was enlarged at the expense of the Chechen-Ingush ASSR and Stavropol krai. The Muslim Digor Ossets, however, were deported to Central Asia.
In 1989, in the freedom of glasnost and Perestroika and frightened by rising Georgian nationalism, the South Ossetians demanded unification with North Ossetia. In December the next year, the Georgian Parliament declared that South Ossetia was no longer autonomous and authorized suppression of newspapers and bans on demonstrations. One issue at stake was the language. Georgian was declared as official language. The Ossetians declared Osetian as the official language of South Ossetia. Fighting commenced in January 1991. During the fighting, South Ossetians were drained of a large part of their population. It is difficult to estimate the number of inhabitants in today's South Ossetia. Most Georgians who lived in the republic left for Georgia proper, and only a few small enclaves in South Ossetia are still inhabited by Georgians
More than 100.000 Ossets fled from Georgia and South Ossetia to North Ossetia. The fighting ended in July 1992 when a cease-fire, at the initiative of Russian President Yeltsin, was agreed and a peacekeeping force of Ossets, Georgians and Russians was set up. The agreement is being observed by the CSCE in Tiflis. But since then little progress has been made. South Ossetia is in a situation of permanent economic crisis and there is a lack of almost everything including jobs, clothes, food heating and electricity. Schools and universities are closed because of lack of heating and books. The situation is worsened by Georgia cutting electricity supplies, which has led to North Ossetia running an electric cable from Russia through the mountain range.
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The peace keepers being in South Ossetia for over 10 years do not change the fact that South Ossetia is still Georgian territory, and has been the entire time.
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And slovakia was once czechoslavakian territory. I guess it's lucky thing for the slovakians that geography and the ussr stuck them with the czechs and not the georgians. They still would've been just as deserving to the right of self determination though. Doesn't mean they would've gotten to exercise it.
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Thanks for the link Hangtime.
Yer Welcome.
<S!>
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Georgia want's russia out of the way so it can get back to the georgification of ossetia, hard to do without altering the demographics of ossetia to put it clinically.
Yet that is what the Russians did.
After the war they were rewarded in that their republic was enlarged at the expense of the Chechen-Ingush ASSR and Stavropol krai. The Muslim Digor Ossets, however, were deported to Central Asia.
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If you compare this to the middle east conflict, then its quite clear that this should warrant a military responce. But i doubt he wants to wage war against a real enemy. Having fought only ragheads from the mediaval times for so long, i dont think the US military grunts would cope with this conflict, they have gotten too used to the middle east style of "warfare" and the grunts would be up for a big shock in a war wheres theres a real enemy.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/shawnlevy/The_Big_Lebowski___Jeff_Bridges.jpg)
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man. "
- The Dude
... and a bad one at that.
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And slovakia was once czechoslavakian territory. I guess it's lucky thing for the slovakians that geography and the ussr stuck them with the czechs and not the georgians. They still would've been just as deserving to the right of self determination though. Doesn't mean they would've gotten to exercise it.
And once, this entire nation of ours was owned by many other peoples... they're on 'reservations' now; have been since before there was a national entity called Ossetia, which; as you know know, was created by the Soviet Union. They (North American Indians) have self determination in their Autonomous Nations, their own leaders, their own schools, don't pay federal or state taxes on their lands, have their own cultural heritage, speak their own languages.
And if Canada were to start supplying them with RPG's, Artillery and providing armor and air support with the intent of forcing the US to revert the lands that are on the American side of the border to Canadian administration, we'd probably get just a tiny bit pissed. We might even 'invade' those indian nations and crush the instigators, gather up the RPG's and Artillery and kick the Canadian 'peacekeepers' back over the border. Imagine the laughter if the canadians cried 'but it was ok in Serbia!!' LOL!
Unless of course, Obama's in charge... then he might let the issue slide; depending on who's paying for the dental plan. *shrug*
BTW, there are in fact Indian Nations that encompass Canadian and US Lands.
http://www.linna.ca/ (http://www.linna.ca/)
Now.. here we are; back to page one. It's Georgian territory. The Russians have invaded. The right and wrong of it begins and ends right there.
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What a crazy Ivan pilot vulching BBC journalists ,
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=9219993&ch=4226714&src=news (http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=9219993&ch=4226714&src=news)
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And slovakia was once czechoslavakian territory.
So? Czechoslovakia was dissolved in a peaceful agreement. It apparently was something both sides wanted. South Ossetia's independence isn't something both sides desire. Apples to oranges here.
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Obviously if ossetia existed in 1903 it isn't a soviet creation. C'mon Hang the soviets went through all the trouble to invent a language for them too?
They (North American Indians) have self determination in their Nations, their own leaders, their own schools, don't pay federal or state taxes on their lands, have their own cultural heritage, speak their own languages.
Right, and that's what the ossetians don't have. Georgia wouldn't allow them to have their own leaders, their own schools, their own language, and certainly not any kind of independence from tax. That is what started the whole war 17 years ago and displaced 100,000 ossetians, the georgification of ossetia after the breakup of the soviet union.
I think some of you have been drinking from boroda's bottle. I say that not to be rude but in the hopes that it gives you pause for some introspection. If one or more parties of a discussion has an emotional investment in the reconciliation of his point of view with the objective facts the discourse is not a discussion it's an argument. In an argument the burden of objectivity is cast off, as the parties to an argument regard only the facts that asuage his emotion, and disregard or rationalize away the facts that are incongruous with his contention.
And that's why arguing is a waste of time, it has nothing to do with divining the truth, and everything to do with emotional gratification.
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Right, and that's what the ossetians don't have. Georgia wouldn't allow them to have their own leaders, their own schools, their own language, and certainly not any kind of independence from tax. That is what started the whole war 17 years ago and displaced 100,000 ossetians, the georgification of ossetia after the breakup of the soviet union.
The boundaries of Georgia were set when the USSR broke up. Why should Georgia allow them to have their own leaders? (Provincial leaders I can see having, sorta like state governors) South Ossetia is but a province within a larger whole. One nation, one language.....that simplifies things for a nation. (Just look at the USA, press 1 for English, 2 for Spanish) Why should they be exempt from taxes? Is the rest of Georgia exempt? My guess would be no.
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Obviously if ossetia existed in 1903 it isn't a soviet creation. C'mon Hang the soviets went through all the trouble to invent a language for them too?
Nope... revolutionary activity started in the region in 1903, but the 'nation' didn't exist until after the Bolshevik revolution... and then when it DID come into being, South Ossetia was part of Georgia.
Revolutionary activity had began in South Ossetia as early as 1903. S. Kirov directed Bolshevik activities in the region from 1909, and shortly after the outbreak of the February Revolution a soviet was formed at Vladikavkaz.
The South Ossetia became a part of the Georgian Menshevik Republic with the break up of the Russian empire in 1918, while the North formed a part of the Terek Soviet Republic.
Suave, yer graspin at straws. ;)
Next... the American Indians were not given Autonomy prior to them accepting American Sovereignty. The South Ossetians; rather than accept similar Georgian terms for autonomy have remained intractable... and have in effect been in a state of rebellion since the soviet union collapsed and Georgia resumed control of the Georgian State.. which South Osseitia has been a part of, since jump street.
Suave.. my interest in this discussion devolves around the truth.. not propaganda. My emotional involvement is nil; beyond the usual 'nailed it' pursuit of using the truth to make the point. I'm enjoying the intelligent discussion... and mean you no personal ill. Hope the debate continues in the same vein.
<S!>
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Imho Bush (and the US) could save alot of face by backing Georgia in this time of crisis, be it with troops or military hardware. I mean, Georgia, an Ally of the USA that are fighting in Iraq alongside US and coalition forces, Georgia wich Bush frantically lobbyed to get into Nato.
If he sit backs and just watches this one, then i dunno really.
If you compare this to the middle east conflict, then its quite clear that this should warrant a military responce. But i doubt he wants to wage war against a real enemy. Having fought only ragheads from the mediaval times for so long, i dont think the US military grunts would cope with this conflict, they have gotten too used to the middle east style of "warfare" and the grunts would be up for a big shock in a war wheres theres a real enemy.
I think not. 'Twould be the red bear to be bitten, seeing as how they've never faced a truly modern army in combat since the end of WWII.
The real thing is, is how long do you try to play the political angle before you have to drop that approach and go to your guns, if you are the U.S.? If reports' are true, and the russians' are edging into Northern Georgia, then we will have to do something really fast.
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Last thing before bed-
TBILISI, Georgia - Georgia says it has received a Russian ultimatum that it must disarm troops near the breakaway province of Abkhazia or face Russian forces moving into Georgian-controlled territory.
Georgian Security Council chief Alexander Lomaia says Gen. Sergei Chaban, who is in charge of Russian peacekeepers in Abkhazia, conveyed the demand Monday via U.N. military observers in the area.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/georgia_south_ossetia_abkhazia;_ylt=AoqpHFnyUHmz2PghOlcp.Y5bbBAF (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/georgia_south_ossetia_abkhazia;_ylt=AoqpHFnyUHmz2PghOlcp.Y5bbBAF)
If those troops' are on Georgian territory, I wonder how this is gonna play out...
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What a crazy Ivan pilot vulching BBC journalists ,
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=9219993&ch=4226714&src=news (http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=9219993&ch=4226714&src=news)
Umm, news team, on the front line, pointing a black oblong object at a low flying aircraft... who's crazy?
Sounds like good spotting by the pilot imho and I woulda dropped more than a couple of rockets on them.
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ukraine_russia_georgia;_ylt=AixiUUr1HMpM7n9QFazTw.1bbBAF
Interesting development.....seems Ukraine is in no hurry to help their Russian neighbors. In fact, this is likely to anger Moscow.
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Just a minute, this is not a state, it's a bloody county:
Area
- Total 3,900 km²
1,506 sq mi
70.000 people
resources: almost none, mostly live off farming.
Don't understand the Georgians for stepping on the Bear's tail just for that....
What they're going to ger out of it is a waking bear one step closer, and if it is to be othervise, it might accelerate into a bloody war.
For no matter what you think of old bears, they still can eat, and know their old habits...
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I personally think its all stupid :aok
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So, what are y'all going to do when Mexico steps in and marches their troops across your border in defence of their citizens being abused in the USA? Since there is this precedent thing and all...:lol
I bet you'd have a field day! :D We'd have a New Texas down there below the existing one within a few months! :rofl How many more stars can you guys fit on that flag anyhow? :devil
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So, what are y'all going to do when Mexico steps in and marches their troops across your border in defence of their citizens being abused in the USA? Since there is this precedent thing and all...:lol
I bet you'd have a field day! :D We'd have a New Texas down there below the existing one within a few months! :rofl How many more stars can you guys fit on that flag anyhow? :devil
Mexico isnt a former member of an enslaved Empire that we exploited and kept in chains using the most abhorrent means you can imagine. I really dont get these "America analogys" when comparing whats happening in Georgia with our history.
The most we should do with Georgia is give them arms. There aint one thing there thats worth a Yank kid dieing for, and anyone that thinks different should march their son or daughter down to the recruiting station and get it in writing that they be allowed to fight and die in Georgia. And thats the S/E European Georgia. Not the S/E American one.
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Oh well so much for derailing the thread. :lol
I don't see grounds for intervention from anyone.
WTG Russia!
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Georgian planes have again bombed the city of Tskhinvali. Lets hope Russia wipes out the entire Georgian airforce. Maybe its about time they occupy Georgia and gets rid of their President too.
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We seriously need a Russian cheer squad!
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Democracy is overrated...I'm sure Putin can find a far more reasonable leadership to put in place, and then they can do the same to those loud annoying Ukranians too...
Tronsky
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We seriously need a Russian cheer squad!
Id like to join if i could limit my support to this scenario only. :D
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How do you look in a crop top and miniskirt?
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Georgian planes have again bombed the city of Tskhinvali. Lets hope Russia wipes out the entire Georgian airforce. Maybe its about time they occupy Georgia and gets rid of their President too.
And after that maybe Norway. :D
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And after that maybe Norway. :D
Sure if we bomb moscow then they can :aok
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Sure if we bomb moscow then they can :aok
The Georgian air force bombed Moscow?
I thought their only crime was sitting on a resource rich piece of land the Russians wanted for their new empire.
Maybe I'm wrong.
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The Georgian air force bombed Moscow?
I thought their only crime was sitting on a resource rich piece of land the Russians wanted for their new empire.
Maybe I'm wrong.
I said the russians may bomb norway if we bomb moscow. Just like i said in my previous post. I have never claimed that Georgia has bombed Moscow.
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(http://www.caglecartoons.com/images/preview/%7B918bb6cd-b61d-42b4-9ff1-c33aa94c173e%7D.gif)
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The west is partly responsible for this,diplomats should have stepped in an told President Mikheil Saakashvili that the West will not be his big stick against Russia.We took are eye off the Ball.
Mikheil Saakashvili is guilty of criminal irresponsibility,either that or he's insane.
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(http://www.caglecartoons.com/images/preview/%7B918bb6cd-b61d-42b4-9ff1-c33aa94c173e%7D.gif)
Excellent! :D
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(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj210/hazzer39/cartoon110808_43676a.jpg)
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I bet there are a number of people who are now breathing a sigh of relief that Georgia was denied NATO membership.
Georgia will lose South Ossetia and Abkhazia and will most likely end up with a pro-Russian government, the Ukraine and other border states get an object lesson in what happens to those who oppose Russia and Putin can throw away the thin vaneer of democratic and constitutional rule: it's a win all round for the Kremlin.
Also look for a Russian controlled company to take a majority stake in the control of the gas pipeline through Georgia from Azerbaijan.
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Lets hope Russia wipes out the entire Georgian airforce. Maybe its about time they occupy Georgia and gets rid of their President too.
Stop trolling and be serious. Back in 1938+, perhaps you would have cheered on Hitler as he occupied the Sudetenland?
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Stop trolling and be serious. Back in 1938+, perhaps you would have cheered on Hitler as he occupied the Sudetenland?
I am serious. A president that plays his cards like he has and then seriously expects support from the US and NATO after he has made a fool of himslef is dangerous to its neighbours and his own population. He started this was and we dont need that kind of twit pulling in the skirt of NATO.
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Putin and his cabal are preferrable, with an even greater stranglehold on Europe's energy sources?
Aside from that, there is a principle of sovereignty at stake. Would you have supported Hitler's march into the Sudetenland?
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Putin and his cabal are preferrable, with an even greater stranglehold on Europe's energy sources?
Aside from that, there is a principle of sovereignty at stake. Would you have supported Hitler's march into the Sudetenland?
South Ossetia wants to be free of georgia and as a freedom lover i think they should get their wish and not get bombed by Georgia.
I support Russia 100% in defending the citizens of South Ossetia from the Georgian assault.
Sudentland and South Ossetia can not be compared. SO has a _____far____ larger population of Russians that wants to be free from Georgia than was the case in Sudentlend.
I assume you distance yourself from your attack on Irak and do not support your own regime on that matter.
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Early Lessons from S Ossetia conflict.
1. Do not punch a bear on the nose unless it is tied down. :lol
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7553390.stm
<S>...-Gixer
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I assume you distance yourself from your attack on Irak and do not support your own regime on that matter.
[/b]
Check my posts back in 2003. I was against going into Iraq and believed then (as I do now) that we should have focused on Afghanistan, for which we had causus belli in the form of non-cooperation on the capture of Bin Laden, responsible for the WTC atrocities. Afghanistan gave tacit, material support to an attack on the US.
Sudentland and South Ossetia can not be compared. SO has a _____far____ larger population of Russians that wants to be free from Georgia than was the case in Sudentlend.
They can't be compared? Let's look at the facts. The Ossetians and Russians cite 'Georgiafication' - as do many in this thread. The Sudetenland contained 3 million Germans - 98% of which voted for the Nazis in the Czech elections of 1938. The Sudetenland had more Nazi party members than anywhere in the Reich at nearly twice the average. They saw themselves as German.
The Czechs broke their promise to make their newly-established country multinational, modelled after Switzerland. Instead, they set out on a policy of Czechization, conducted as follows:
1.Against the German language and culture by closing down Germanschools and by declaring Czech the only official language to be used in all communications with the authorities;
2. by ousting Germans from civil service jobs and in enterprises owned and controlled by the government;
3. by curbing the German economy and taking over German firms into Czech ownership;
4. by restricting the powers of local government in the German-speaking towns and districts.
Given that the Sudetenland was exclusively German, I think the parallels with Ossetia are remarkable. By yours and the logic of others in this thread, Hitler was right. Here's his mandate and the response of the international community at the time:
"The Nazis, together with their Sudeten German allies, demanded incorporation of the region into Nazi Germany to escape "oppression", in fact to destroy the Czechoslovak state. While the Czechoslovak government mobilized its troops, the Western powers urged it to comply with Germany believing that they could prevent or postpone a general war by appeasing Hitler."
Has a familiar ring to it, somehow?
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I belive those who start wars shal lose them. And in this case Georgia did. I rest my case as i dont have time or will to go page up and down on this matter. If you wish you can claim victory in the debate. I dont care about winning arguments here.
Lets just hope the fighting stops soon and agree on that.
Have a nice day :)
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Iraq started the Persian Gulf war with Iran, was on the verge of losing it but eventually won with direct US intervention. A far reaching comparision, but a comparison none the less
South Ossetia is still soveriegn Georgian territory despite the Russians efforts to rule by proxy, and this is far more than just the glorious Russian cossack cavalry coming to the aid of poor Russian peasants against a oppressive regime and their cowboy president.
Tronsky
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Russian troops have entered Georgia from the breakaway region of Abkhazia, reaching the town of Senaki, officials from both Russia and Georgia say.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7554507.stm
Geee looks like Georgia is plagued by breakaway regions....
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So when do the parallels with Serbia end? I don't recall NATO tanks rolling on Belgrade or any part of non-breakaway/disupted territory - but I'm willing to be proved wrong. It seems Russia is heading that way.
Someone needs to tell the Russians to back off. Now.
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So, what are y'all going to do when Mexico steps in and marches their troops across your border in defence of their citizens being abused in the USA? Since there is this precedent thing and all...:lol
I bet you'd have a field day! :D We'd have a New Texas down there below the existing one within a few months! :rofl How many more stars can you guys fit on that flag anyhow? :devil
What?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.google.com%2Fnwshp%3Fie%3DUTF-8&tab=wn&v=UfA5XfxQOPw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.google.com%2Fnwshp%3Fie%3DUTF-8&tab=wn&v=UfA5XfxQOPw)
Watching what Putin got to say above and all the scandal in last days about false intel used as pretext for the war in Iraq , i think this war is also another proof of president Bush failure in international policy on top of economic , immigration failure. Why did he used 2000 georgian troops in Iraq, baiting them with NATO membership ,if this poor small country is not yet NATO member and are not acting under UN flag, if he knows he can't pay back their services when needed? just to show a "Coalition" in Iraq and encourage them against Russia?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.google.com%2Fnwshp%3Fie%3DUTF-8&tab=wn&v=UfA5XfxQOPw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.google.com%2Fnwshp%3Fie%3DUTF-8&tab=wn&v=UfA5XfxQOPw)
Watching what Putin got to say above and all the scandal in last days about false intel used as pretext for the war in Iraq , i think this war is also another proof of president Bush failure in international policy on top of economic , immigration failure. Why did he used 2000 georgian troops in Iraq, baiting them with NATO membership ,if this poor small country is not yet NATO member and are not acting under UN flag, if he knows he can't pay back their services when needed? just to show a "Coalition" in Iraq and encourage them against Russia?
Why did Bush use Georgian troops in Iraq? When did Bush become commander in chief of the UN? Could not any member of the UN voluntarily particpate in a UN action? Even if Bush did encourage Georgia to stand against the Russian empire so what? If only one man stands against evil should he not only because he is alone and the threat is great?
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They should both back off while things cool down a bit. UN?
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Sounds like a '4 year old' try'n to justfiy his actions because some other kid did it, so that makes it ok...
:rofl
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They should both back off while things cool down a bit. UN?
Certainly the US has been calling for a cease fire. Russia has veto power in the UN so it's powerless, as usual. Has the EU demanded a cease fire?
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Certainly the US has been calling for a cease fire. Russia has veto power in the UN so it's powerless, as usual. Has the EU demanded a cease fire?
Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili signed an EU-backed ceasefire, but the document was rejected by Moscow.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7554507.stm
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So Russia isn't receptive to polite requests for a cease fire and the UN is powerless to do anything. What next? Everyone squeakes about the US' involvement in world affairs so don't expect us to police this.
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heard a report that russia now occupies Gori. Thats a wee bit beyond to scope of helping ossetia isnt it?
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Russian columns have invested Gori and a second column, invading thru Abkhazia has taken Zugdidi and Senaki and invested Potoi. Gori and Potoi will fall today.
..... folks, the Russki's will likely not stop until they have taken Tbilisi, and arrested their government.
Looks like they will get no help from Europe. No help from Ukraine. No help from US.
Maybe the Chinese will send their basketball team.
...and another little pro-western democracy falls.
Who's next?
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time to kick russia out of G8, expell them from any WTO dealings and start sending shipments of shoulder fired anti air missles to georgian self defense forces (if they are not already enroute).
Wonder how long it will take putin'satan to reclaim east germany?
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time to kick russia out of G8, expell them from any WTO dealings and start sending shipments of shoulder fired anti air missles to georgian self defense forces (if they are not already enroute).
Wonder how long it will take putin'satan to reclaim east germany?
History teaches that the the Europeans will continue with appeasement.. until it's to late. Sad to say, I'd like to see the Georgians enthusiastically supported. But reality dictates that just won't happen. If we can't get free Europe to defend free Europe, why are we wasting our time and money protecting them via NATO?
Time for the withdrawal of US troops from all european locations and pull out of NATO.
The hell with europe. Let the Bear have them.
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Gee thanks Hangtime.
I guess we'll pull out of Helmand then?
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time to kick russia out of G8... yada yada
Ok you intardnet tough guy, why don't you go to Georgia yourself and find out what a war i is really about ?
But no because you are..
(http://119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/League_of_Cantankerous_Misanthropes/InternetToughGuy.jpg)
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Gee thanks Hangtime.
I guess we'll pull out of Helmand then?
Helmand in Afghanistan? the Tommies are doing good work there. But, since the rest of Europe regards Afghanistan as a lost cause.. like Georgia, perhaps it would be best if your guys and ours leave the Afghans to their destiny.
Sorry Dowding... for the first time in memory I find the two of us in utter agreement on an international issue. The rest of Europe seems to disagree with us on this one. Sign of the times... your internationalists have their EU Soviet to build; we have problems in our own hemisphere that need attending to.
*sigh*
Lemme know how the russian language lessons work out... maybe you'll have a nice teacher.
Good luck, buddie.
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Ok you intardnet tough guy, why don't you go to Georgia yourself and find out what a war i is really about ?
But no because you are..
(http://119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/League_of_Cantankerous_Misanthropes/InternetToughGuy.jpg)
Nicht Shiesen! Ist Kamerade!
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Ok... Russian aggression now expands to Abkhazia, another Georgian territory.
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What should the US do? What should the EU do? How about the EU jump in and stop Russia. You are already next door afterall. If you guys start getting your tulips whuped we'll come help.
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1. do nothing
2. do nothing
3. Just wait for Ukraine to join NATO. Georgia was promised NATO invitation, but that won't happen for a couple of years.
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What should the US do? What should the EU do? How about the EU jump in and stop Russia. You are already next door afterall. If you guys start getting your tulips whuped we'll come help.
the US has supported Georgian democracy and spoke to them about joining the NATO.
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What should the US do? What should the EU do? How about the EU jump in and stop Russia. You are already next door afterall. If you guys start getting your tulips whuped we'll come help.
Europe has spoken... by doing nothing. Georgia will be handed to the new Soviet.
Perhaps, the new soviet will allow europe to keep their soccer match schedules as a magnanimous gesture of thanks.
My mother in law; an 88 year old refugee from WWII is beyond words... all she had to say is 'it will happen again. it IS happening again... cowards. they are cowards."
She's still in tears.
Good luck; europe.
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Russia has also called for an emergency meeting with Nato on the conflict.
Georgia's foreign minister is due to meet Nato on Tuesday, but Russia says the organisation should hear Moscow's side before making any decisions.
Nato's Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer has accused Russian of using disproportionate force and violating Georgia's sovereignty
Looks like an emergency meeting is in the works..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7554507.stm
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Just wait for Ukraine to join NATO.
Because of what happned to Georgia, it should hasten Ukraine's entry to NATO. Ukraine is the 2nd most powerful nation in the C.I.S. states
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Just a minute, this is not a state, it's a bloody county:
No, it's not a country. It is still a province of Georgia. No country has recognized South Ossetia's independence, neither has the UN.
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with all the press coverage going on, maybe it would be a good time to hit Iran's nuc facilities?
:devil
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South Ossetia wants to be free of georgia and as a freedom lover i think they should get their wish and not get bombed by Georgia.
That is up to the Georgians and Ossets to resolve, not you, me or the Russians.
Sudentland and South Ossetia can not be compared. SO has a _____far____ larger population of Russians that wants to be free from Georgia than was the case in Sudentlend.
Wrong......the Russian citizens in South Ossetia are ethnic Ossets, not Russians, who have been given Russian passports. That would make them dual citizens, ie...citizens of both Russia and Georgia, yet they remain ethnic Ossets.
I belive those who start wars shal lose them. And in this case Georgia did.
It is still not known which side started it, both sides claim the other did. Stop listening to the Russian propaganda machine.
Looking at what is happening in Georgia now, it sure looks like Russia was just waiting for an excuse to go land grabbing.
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1. do nothing
2. do nothing
3. Just wait for Ukraine to join NATO. Georgia was promised NATO invitation, but that won't happen for a couple of years.
If we leave Georgia out to dry, the Ukraine might not be so incesnsed with NATO membership. And It's looking like Georgia won't survive long enough to make it to full-fledged member status.
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interesting write up with lessons learned....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7553390.stm
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Time for Ivan do go Home :furious
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History teaches that the the Europeans will continue with appeasement.. until it's to late. Sad to say, I'd like to see the Georgians enthusiastically supported. But reality dictates that just won't happen. If we can't get free Europe to defend free Europe, why are we wasting our time and money protecting them via NATO?
Time for the withdrawal of US troops from all european locations and pull out of NATO.
The hell with europe. Let the Bear have them.
To be honest Hangtime...Other than looking at Georgia as a prospective NATO member, they don't really have any ties from the EU. We are the ones' that have been extending military aid, developing them as an ally, and have had them as a part of the U.S. led coalition in Iraq/Afghanistan. They came and helped us when we asked. Russia wins' a much greater victory than claiming either Ossetia or Georgia out of all of this, If we do nothing. Ghi said it almost spot on in his post.
This really, after a fashion, isn't a Euro problem at all. It's one of what the U.S. does' for it's friends, even ones' that have come to our aid. This would be like Russian troops' actually forcing a fight somewhere with Britain, possibly on her own shores, and the U.S. sitting back and saying "Thanks' for helping us in Iraq, but this fight for your life at homes' none of our business...".
Little bit more news...
3 minutes ago
MOSCOW - Georgia's president says Russia's troops have effectively cut the country in half by seizing a strategic city that straddles the country's main east-west highway.
ADVERTISEMENT
President Mikhail Saakashvili made the statement in a national security council meeting on Monday, about an hour after officials claimed Russian troops had captured Gori, about 60 miles west of the capital Tbilisi.
The news agency Interfax cited a Russian Defense Ministry official as denying the reports of the seizure.
But a top official at the Georgian embassy in Moscow, Givi Shugarov, said Russian troops appeared to be moving toward Tbilisi and he alleged Russia's goal was "complete liquidation" of the Georgian government.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080811/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_south_ossetia (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080811/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_south_ossetia)
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We established how we honor commitments in Vietnam.
I don't see any evidence of a sea-change on the horizon.
How I personally feel is evidenced in my sig.
It's not consistent with the opinion of the majority of citizens in this nation or in europe. I'm an an anachronism. The time of folks like me passed in 1972.
<S!>
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The American backed puppet regime, built on the dead bodies of our socialist brothers and sisters who dared to stand up to the soon to be ill fated Georgian government, will fall to the heroes of Mother Russia as our proud men fight to gain the freedom of those oppressed there! :salute
Comrades!! Gori has fallen!! Our heroic troops are only 45 km from the enemy capital of the imperialist suck-ups! :salute
Soon, the land of the birth of Comrade Stalin will be returned to Russia!! :salute
Our Brother Vladimir Putin has said that the American Imperialist running dogs that have airlifted 2,000 Georgian troops to Gerorgia, and have created an aura of war by doing so! America is instigating acts of war against Mother Russia! These acts will not be ignored! :salute
I implore all my socialist brothers to ....<skreetch>....<skreeeeeeeeetch>.....ah...
Sorry...
I was having a Boroda moment.
ROX
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I was having a Boroda moment.
Where's he been, anyway? I'd have thought we would have seen him posting at least every hour on the hour during this...
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History teaches that the the Europeans will continue with appeasement.. until it's to late. Sad to say, I'd like to see the Georgians enthusiastically supported. But reality dictates that just won't happen. If we can't get free Europe to defend free Europe, why are we wasting our time and money protecting them via NATO?
Time for the withdrawal of US troops from all european locations and pull out of NATO.
The hell with europe. Let the Bear have them.
:rofl Ill settle for this. What i really feel about you would get me permanenlty banned from this place.
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Question: How much planning would it take to send two armored columns into a hostile country? Lets say with 400 tanks?
Answer: Many months of planning and supply.
Question: How many Russian tanks have been destroyed?
Answer: Initially Georgia reported 40 Russian tanks destroyed. We all doubt those figures. Still Georgia did hold up the Russian column at the border for a good while considering. If the US has lost 20 tanks, it would be huge news. Russia also lost at least 2 jets confirmed. Possibly several more. I assume Georgia has been supplied with some really nice anti-tank and anti-air systems. Until they were overwhelmed, it looks like they worked well.
<opinion> There is a long game to all this. Putin is attempting to bring down the Us the same way the US brought down Russia. Putin will sit on the pipeline until he is pushed out. Note that the pipeline is closed in Turkey due to an attack by Kurds. but the oil is being off loaded at Georgia ports. that is until Russia bombed the ports and put them out of commission.
Cut the oil pipeline. The price of oil goes to $200 and the US fails. If Europe gives aid to Georgia, Russia refuses to sell oil and gas to Europe. Putin holds all the cards on this one.
Israel and France are big players. Expect action from France first. Israel will supply defensive systems covertly. The war and occupation in Georgia will go on for as long as it takes to bring the US to it's knees. (economically speaking)
</opinion>
Here is a good write-up of the players and stakes in this game.
http://szamko.gnn.tv/blogs/17155/Pipeline_Time
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Question: How much planning would it take to send two armored columns into a hostile country? Lets say with 400 tanks?
Answer: Many months of planning and supply.
Question: How many Russian tanks have been destroyed?
Answer: Initially Georgia reported 40 Russian tanks destroyed. We all doubt those figures. Still Georgia did hold up the Russian column at the border for a good while considering. If the US has lost 20 tanks, it would be huge news. Russia also lost at least 2 jets confirmed. Possibly several more. I assume Georgia has been supplied with some really nice anti-tank and anti-air systems. Until they were overwhelmed, it looks like they worked well.
<opinion> There is a long game to all this. Putin is attempting to bring down the Us the same way the US brought down Russia. Putin will sit on the pipeline until he is pushed out. Note that the pipeline is closed in Turkey due to an attack by Kurds. but the oil is being off loaded at Georgia ports. that is until Russia bombed the ports and put them out of commission.
Cut the oil pipeline. The price of oil goes to $200 and the US fails. If Europe gives aid to Georgia, Russia refuses to sell oil and gas to Europe. Putin holds all the cards on this one.
Israel and France are big players. Expect action from France first. Israel will supply defensive systems covertly. The war and occupation in Georgia will go on for as long as it takes to bring the US to it's knees. (economically speaking)
</opinion>
Here is a good write-up of the players and stakes in this game.
http://szamko.gnn.tv/blogs/17155/Pipeline_Time
I could see it that way too, Killjoy, except for the timeframe. IMHO, at the rate of Russian advance (They hold Gori, and are pushing deeper) The current Georgia has about a week, two at the outside, before they get to Tibilisi. All the way to the southern border...three weeks, without direct intervention.
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Reporters say that scores of North Osetians, Serbs and Russians are volontering (sp?) at this moment to go and fight.
I dunno Nielsen, you made some sence in the start of the thread with your simple logic, but now its hogwash, Georgia signed the "peace treaty", Russia didnt, or rather full fletched ignored it. Russia has cut Georgia in half and advancing towards their Capital.
Europe IS responding verbally and diplomatically, but toejam you can really feel it its too late now since Russia is in a steamroll mode. And once the steamroll is over they wont leave in a good while imo.
Im with Georgia on this one, like rest of Europe is.
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im confused on something, maybe someone can help me figure it out.
What does Abkhazia have to do with the stuff that started in South Ossetia. Did Georgia hit stuff in abkhazia at the same time as ossetia? Looks to me like stuff got lit off in ossetia, then russia came pouring out of 2 areas in response.
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im confused on something, maybe someone can help me figure it out.
What does Abkhazia have to do with the stuff that started in South Ossetia. Did Georgia hit stuff in abkhazia at the same time as ossetia? Looks to me like stuff got lit off in ossetia, then russia came pouring out of 2 areas in response.
Reading news' reports, and trying to follow everything, it looks' like oppurtunism on Abkhazia's part.
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Reading news' reports, and trying to follow everything, it looks' like oppurtunism on Abkhazia's part.
Well its Russians that are attacking from Abkhazias territory.
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(http://www.caglecartoons.com/images/preview/%7B918bb6cd-b61d-42b4-9ff1-c33aa94c173e%7D.gif)
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France sends aid. I'm guessing it isn't all humanitarian.
France to send aid to Georgia, fly nationals back
Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:21pm IST
PARIS, Aug 11 (Reuters) - France is sending a plane to Georgia loaded with aid for the victims of the fighting in the separatist region of South Ossetia and is also planning to fly back EU nationals who want to leave, it said on Monday.
The simmering conflict between Russia and its neighbour erupted last Thursday when Georgia sent forces to retake South Ossetia, a pro-Russian province that threw off Tbilisi's rule in the 1990s.
"Concerned by the growing number of victims and displaced people as well as by the considerable damage caused by the conflict in South Ossetia, France has decided to send a first load of humanitarian aid this afternoon," the French foreign ministry said in a statement.
It said the plane would leave France on Monday afternoon with 30 tonnes of equipment including tents, blankets and beds.
"The (Airbus) A-340 plane, which has a capacity of 250 seats, should enable the return to France of the French and European nationals who wish to do so and who are currently blocked in Tbilisi because of the halt in commercial flights," the ministry added.
The ministry said France was consulting its European allies on the possibility of sending further aid shipments. (Reporting by Francois Murphy)
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France will be first to help:
France's Sarkozy to visit Moscow
August 11, 2008 05:13am
Article from: Agence France-Presse
FRENCH President Nicolas Sarkozy will visit Moscow early in the coming week for talks with Russian counterpart Dmitry Medvedev over the fighting in Georgia, the Kremlin and the Elysee said today.
Mr Medvedev and Mr Sarkozy, whose country currently holds the EU presidency, held a telephone conversation in which they "agreed to continue discussions in Moscow", the Kremlin press service said, quoted by Interfax.
The French president's office said Mr Sarkozy would visit Moscow "in the coming days" to confer with Mr Medvedev.
Mr Sarkozy said today there was hope of quickly ending the conflict between Russia and Georgia over the breakaway Georgian province of South Ossetia.
"Following the withdrawal of Georgian troops from South Ossetia, the president of the republic believes there is a real perspective of rapidly finding a way out of the crisis," the presidency said.
The French presidency said Mr Sarkozy "intends to pursue contacts with both (Georgian and Russian) presidents in the coming hours, to bring their positions closer together and create the conditions to end the crisis".
French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner arrived in Tbilisi overnight and was due to travel to Moscow tomorrow on a mission to mediate in the conflict on behalf of the European Union which is currently presided over by France.
He was to submit a three-point peace plan to both sides, based on "an immediate cessation of hostilities; the full respect of the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Georgia" and "the re-establishment of the situation that existed before".
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And Israel continues to sell Weapons to Georgia.
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I'm seeing film of civilians, fighting from their cars; right alongside Georgian troops on the road south of Gori.
Looks like the Georgians have some fight in them yet.
The two weeks of resistance time frame may be possible... doubt seriously if the west will do a damn thing to materially support the Georgian defense of their nation; can't see how the Georgian Government can withstand the dismemberment of their air defenses and repel russian armor without immediate and substantial military aid from the west.
The President (ours) will issue a statement at 5:15 pm eastern in the Rose Garden.
I don't hold much hope. Georgia is being used as a pawn... the endgame does not look good.
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Is it worth turning on CNN or are they discussing Britney Spears still?
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:rofl Ill settle for this. What i really feel about you would get me permanenlty banned from this place.
If you really wanted to get somethig off your chest there might be another place....
http://www.flamewarriors.net/forum/index.php
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Reporters say that scores of North Osetians, Serbs and Russians are volontering (sp?) at this moment to go and fight.
I dunno Nielsen, you made some sence in the start of the thread with your simple logic, but now its hogwash, Georgia signed the "peace treaty", Russia didnt, or rather full fletched ignored it. Russia has cut Georgia in half and advancing towards their Capital.
Europe IS responding verbally and diplomatically, but poop you can really feel it its too late now since Russia is in a steamroll mode. And once the steamroll is over they wont leave in a good while imo.
Im with Georgia on this one, like rest of Europe is.
Ill make my final statement and reason for beeing on the side of the russians in the initial stages of this conflict and then ill let the thread live on without me. Life it too short to get dragged into another argument that may live as long as the Irak argument. Not gonna waste whats left of the summer :)
1. Georgia started the fight by attacking the city.
2. Russia defended the citizens that are mostly russians that wants to be free from Georgia.
3. Georgia claims that the russians were only waiting for an excuse. That may be the case, but Georgia gambled and obviously counted on "the west" to step up and help them. By doing so georgia showed its true face and so have the russians. All these other imputs that this is about energy supply and whatnot may or may not be the case. Point is still that Georgia gambled and started an attack that has flattened a city.
Lets hope it ends soon.
The End.
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I don't hold much hope. Georgia is being used as a pawn... the endgame does not look good.
The neo-con Bill Kristol is already calling (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/11/opinion/11kristol.html) for "emergency military aid"... :rolleyes:
"Georgia, a nation of about 4.6 million, has had the third-largest military presence — about 2,000 troops — fighting along with U.S. soldiers and marines in Iraq. For this reason alone, we owe Georgia a serious effort to defend its sovereignty. Surely we cannot simply stand by as an autocratic aggressor gobbles up part of — and perhaps destabilizes all of — a friendly democratic nation that we were sponsoring for NATO membership a few months ago.
For that matter, consider the implications of our turning away from Georgia for other aspiring pro-Western governments in the neighborhood, like Ukraine’s. Shouldn’t we therefore now insist that normal relations with Russia are impossible as long as the aggression continues, strongly reiterate our commitment to the territorial integrity of Georgia and Ukraine, and offer emergency military aid to Georgia?"
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if thats the case nilsen, then what about russia coming through the other enclave? If it was just about russians in south ossetia then why come through the other hot spot.
How quickly they pushed through smells fishy to me. the other report i read about railroads being repaired months ago in abkhazia by russian peacekeepers has me going hmmmmm also.
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1. Georgia started the fight by attacking the city.
2. Russia defended the citizens that are mostly russians that wants to be free from Georgia.
3. Georgia claims that the russians were only waiting for an excuse. That may be the case, but Georgia gambled and obviously counted on "the west" to step up and help them. By doing so georgia showed its true face and so have the russians. All these other imputs that this is about energy supply and whatnot may or may not be the case. Point is still that Georgia gambled and started an attack that has flattened a city.
Lets hope it ends soon.
The End.
I pretty much had the same oppinion as you in the beggining of the conflict. But not now. Its pretty clear that Russia aint doing this to save the poor Osetians. Theres alternative motives in this one.
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if reports are true, 4 georgian cities with the russians in them and now the port city of poti has reports of russians at the gate. Again if true, this isnt protecting south ossettia, this is a smack down of georgia.
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My heart goes out to all these peoples caught in the struggle. We can argue who did what to whom, but they will suffer no matter who did it.
I hope it doesn't turn into the Spanish civil war before WW2 where nations tested new weapons at the expense of civilians. There are a lot of new weapons systems out their and this is the perfect battle ground for them.
Paraphrasing Mark Twain. "To a man with a hammer in his hand, every problem looks like a nail."
I wonder if the US will establish a no-fly zone over Georgia. It would take some time but a couple of F22's and a spare AWAK could do it. Remember also that Russia has to find fuel for all those tanks and support vehicles. Tanks are nice, but they are a very big target. There are lots of new ways to take them out.
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(http://www.caglecartoons.com/images/preview/%7B918bb6cd-b61d-42b4-9ff1-c33aa94c173e%7D.gif)
I couldn't have said it better,
the EU warned Georgia allready in the past not to attack/use firepower against south ossettia...
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Now this is interesting.
Russia started the Cyber-War before invading.
Several Georgian state computer servers have been under external control since shortly before Russia's armed intervention into the state commenced on Friday, leaving its online presence in dissaray.
While the official website of Mikheil Saakashvili, the Georgian President, has become available again, the central government site, as well as the homepages for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Ministry of Defence , remain down. Some commercial websites have also been hijacked.
The Georgian Government said that the disruption was caused by attacks carried out by Russia as part of the ongoing conflict between the two states over the Georgian province of South Ossetia.
In a statement released via a replacement website built on Google's blog-hosting service, the Georgian Ministry of Foreign Affairs said: "A cyber warfare campaign by Russia is seriously disrupting many Georgian websites, including that of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs."
Barack Obama, the Democratic US Presidential candidate, has demanded Moscow halt the internet attacks as well as observing a ceasefire on the ground.
Last April the computer systems of the Estonian Government came under attack in a co-ordinated three-week assault widely credited to state-sponsored Russian hackers. The wave of attacks came after a row erupted over the removal of the Bronze Soldier Soviet war memorial in Tallinn, the Estonian capital. The websites of government departments, political parties, banks and newspapers were all targeted.
Analysts have immediately accused the Russian Business Network (RBN), a network of criminal hackers with close links to the Russian mafia and government, of the Georgian attacks.
Jart Armin, a researcher who runs a website tracking the activity of the RBN, has released data claiming to show that visits to Georgian sites had been re-routed through servers in Russia and Turkey, where the traffic was blocked. Armin said the servers "are well known to be under the control of RBN and influenced by the Russian Government."
Mr Armin said that administrators in Germany had intervened at the weekend, temporarily making the Georgian sites available by re-routing their traffic through German servers run by Deutsche Telekom. Within hours, however, control over the traffic had been wrested back, this time to servers based in Moscow.
As in the barrage against Estonian websites last year, the Georgian sites are being bombarded by a distributed denial-of-service (DDoS) attack, in which hackers direct their computers to simultaneously flood a site with thousands of visits in order to overload it and bring it offline.
The Shadowserver Foundation, which tracks serious hacking, confirmed: "We are now seeing new attacks against .ge sites - www.parliament.ge and president.gov.ge are currently being hit with http floods."
Mr Armin warned that official Georgian sites that did appear online may have been hijacked and be displaying bogus content. He said in a post on his site: "Use caution with any web sites that appear of a Georgia official source but are without any recent news ... as these may be fraudulent."
The Baltic Business News website reported that Estonia has offered to send a specialist online security team to Georgia.
However a spokesman from Estonia's Development Centre of State Information Systems said Georgia had not made a formal request. "This will be decided by the government," he said.
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this isn't surprising...
West worried about Georgia oil pipeline (http://news.theage.com.au/business/west-worried-about-georgia-oil-pipeline-20080811-3t5f.html)
"While Georgia does not produce oil itself, US and European energy firms have counted on the pro-Western country - sandwiched between Russia and Iran further south - to host a conduit for oil and gas exports from Azerbaijan."
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I said the russians may bomb norway if we bomb moscow. Just like i said in my previous post. I have never claimed that Georgia has bombed Moscow.
Well what is the end game here? Put your Putin hat on before you start cheering for Russia.
Russian leaders have either had Empire or dreamed of Empire. Think that has changed?
OK, they already have west Europe by the short hairs with energy. By getting control of the Caspian pipeline they will get the really short hairs, And, much of the hairs of the entire free west. Most of all when you figure they are arming Iran to the teeth.
So now they have another trading card to go along with all their others. America is stuck in the middle of a terror war. We need their assistance with that, with Iran, with North Korea. Europe needs their energy. The old game of divide and conquer, most of all with NATO already divided.
So they step on Georgia and force a Soviet puppet in. Next is the Ukraine, Azerbaijan,Kyrgyzstan;Uzbekistan,Turkmenistan, Latvia.....the sky is the limit.
Clever boy. He wants the old Soviet Empire only without the bills. Either way its hard to understand why a Norwegian would be cheering for the Russians.
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Ill make my final statement and reason for beeing on the side of the russians in the initial stages of this conflict and then ill let the thread live on without me. Life it too short to get dragged into another argument that may live as long as the Irak argument. Not gonna waste whats left of the summer :)
1. Georgia started the fight by attacking the city.
2. Russia defended the citizens that are mostly russians that wants to be free from Georgia.
3. Georgia claims that the russians were only waiting for an excuse. That may be the case, but Georgia gambled and obviously counted on "the west" to step up and help them. By doing so georgia showed its true face and so have the russians. All these other imputs that this is about energy supply and whatnot may or may not be the case. Point is still that Georgia gambled and started an attack that has flattened a city.
Lets hope it ends soon.
The End.
Wow.....
Even though there are conflicting reports on who started it, you are sticking with the Russian propaganda machine. As stated before, the Russian citizens in South Ossetia are Ossets, not Russians. Just the fact that Russia did issue the passports and is now apparently trying to control all of Georgia shows that there is more than just a slight chance of instigation on the part of Russia. Looks like it was all planned out to me.
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My heart goes out to all these peoples caught in the struggle. We can argue who did what to whom, but they will suffer no matter who did it.
I hope it doesn't turn into the Spanish civil war before WW2 where nations tested new weapons at the expense of civilians. There are a lot of new weapons systems out their and this is the perfect battle ground for them.
Paraphrasing Mark Twain. "To a man with a hammer in his hand, every problem looks like a nail."
I wonder if the US will establish a no-fly zone over Georgia. It would take some time but a couple of F22's and a spare AWAK could do it. Remember also that Russia has to find fuel for all those tanks and support vehicles. Tanks are nice, but they are a very big target. There are lots of new ways to take them out.
...Except that this isn't really in any way like the Spanish civil war. It's closet WWII equivalent would be the Invasion of Poland in '39.
This is a conventional invasion of Georgia, by Russia. There are no proxy forces' being used by them. And if they are already in Gori, then there won't be much time-Hangtime said two weeks, but I'm starting to think a week, maybe, Unless another player actually puts' forces at Georgia's disposal. We would actually need to be flying air-supremacy and AA-suppression missions' now, if we're to keep this thing from getting much more outta hand.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/Georgian_Pipelines.gif)
Do you see Gori? It's right on top of one of the pipelines. Reports' are the Russians' are already there, and pushing south. If they've already gotten that much territory, I don't see where the Georgians' have much longer at all.
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Wow.....
Even though there are conflicting reports on who started it, you are sticking with the Russian propaganda machine. As stated before, the Russian citizens in South Ossetia are Ossets, not Russians. Just the fact that Russia did issue the passports and is now apparently trying to control all of Georgia shows that there is more than just a slight chance of instigation on the part of Russia. Looks like it was all planned out to me.
I'd say that the pre-positioned Russian Motor-rifle divisions' give that away, along with the almost immediate employment into action.
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I'd say that the pre-positioned Russian Motor-rifle divisions' give that away, along with the almost immediate employment into action.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/Georgian_Pipelines.gif)
That too.
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Never tought i would say it but... Good speach Bush. Short but to the point.
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Question:
Say either the U.S. or NATO or some other European force wants to intervene. How?
And what is Turkey's stance on this?
Also, how are the Georgians claiming this started. (I've yet to see a reliable source say why Georgia went into SO in the first place.)
This whole thing is a bit scary, the Russians "response" has been way too effective (and overwhelming) to be a hastily prepared reaction to Georgia and S. Ossetia's flare up.
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Also, how are the Georgians claiming this started.
Georgians are claiming South Ossetia started shooting first. Of course, South Ossetia claims Georgia started shooting first.
I put up a pair of links on the first page of this thread.
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one step could be for Georgia to request a UN sanctioned no-fly zone over its own territory. Im sure the UN would come up with some excuse not to do it but its one option.
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This whole thing is a bit scary, the Russians "response" has been way too effective (and overwhelming) to be a hastily prepared reaction to Georgia and S. Ossetia's flare up.
Thats pretty much what I am thinking.
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one step could be for Georgia to request a UN sanctioned no-fly zone over its own territory. Im sure the UN would come up with some excuse not to do it but its one option.
Russia has veto power....not gonna happen.
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Never tought i would say it but... Good speach Bush. Short but to the point.
I missed his speech....have a link?
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I missed his speech....have a link?
Saw it on the Telly, but im sure CNN has it up shortly.
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UN is a no go. Russia would veto anything that it didn't want.
BBC reports Gori is not under Russian control and that Russian insertion into Georgia from the west has returned from where they came. Hope that's true.
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Saw it on the Telly, but im sure CNN has it up shortly.
You're right, CNN has it up already. Thanks. :)
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/11/us.georgia/index.html
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With economic sanctions and with supplying the Georgians with advanced weaponry. At least with effective AA weapons and anti-armor.
We could also threaten to speed up NATO acceptance for the other former Soviet states that wanted to join.
There is a NATO air base at Diyarbakir Turkey, about 300 miles from Georgia. There is a very large NATO base at Adana, about 600 miles away, that any aircraft in the USAF can stage out of. With the Turks you dont talk "stance" as much as you talk "price". Im assuming they arent to keen on letting US aircraft to stage on their territory to attack Russian forces in Georgia. But I honestly dont know.
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I read somewhere that Georgians shot down some Tu-22m3 (Russia's advanced supersonic bomber). Tu-22 availability is limited.
I wonder if Western supplied weapons played a role...
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Be interesting to see what happens if/when the Georgian troops in Iraq get flown back home.
I hope to Gawd that US planes don't get shot down or buzzed by Russian fighters...
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already flew them back. c-17s it looked like.
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This is weird. There is already a Wiki page on the '2008 South-Ossetia war'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_war)
It does have some good maps in it.
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hmmmmm
Russian sources claim that among the Georgian soldiers killed during the assault on Tskhinvali, Russian forces found the corpses of black soldiers.[279] They allege that these individuals were mercenaries or foreign instructors. They previously reported that American military instructors were stationed at a large Georgian military installation in Gori.[280]
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You're right, CNN has it up already. Thanks. :)
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/11/us.georgia/index.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qab6gD2sINw
The quote on the CNN page is incomplete. Bush said "Russia has invaded a sovereign, neighboring state and threatens a democratic government elected by it's people. Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st century."
Why include the "democratic government" and "in the 21st century" qualifiers, and why was the latter so ominous-sounding? (Listen to him say it...) Smacks of NWO to me... :noid
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You can dress up an evil empire in frilly clothes and its still, and always will be, an evil empire. Pragmatism dictates we treat the Russian government as civilized, but it would be stupid to actually believe it.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qab6gD2sINw
The quote on the CNN page is incomplete. Bush said "Russia has invaded a sovereign, neighboring state and threatens a democratic government elected by it's people. Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st century."
Why include the "democratic government" and "in the 21st century" qualifiers, and why was the latter so ominous-sounding? (Listen to him say it...) Smacks of NWO to me... :noid
I believe it was carefully worded to differentiate the current conflict from the Iraq invasion -- Saddam was not elected.
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Ok, now if you read this:
by Sylvie Lanteaume
2 hours, 40 minutes ago
WASHINGTON (AFP) - Washington has little room for maneuver in the Caucasus conflict amid perceptions that it helped fuel the crisis by over-inflating Georgia's hopes of US support for its young democracy, analysts say.
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"This is probably a conflict where the United States would not be accepted by both sides as a mediator," said analyst Steven Pifer, a former US ambassador in Kiev.
"The Georgians would welcome American participation. I suspect the Russians would probably not accept us because in Moscow, we are seen as too close to Georgia," added the analyst from the Brookings Institute.
US President George W. Bush Monday condemned the Russian military offensive against Georgia, triggered after Tbilisi sent troops into the pro-Moscow rebel region of South Ossetia seeking to regain control from the separatists.
"I said this violence is unacceptable," Bush told US broadcaster NBC. "I expressed my grave concern about the disproportionate response of Russia and that we strongly condemn bombing outside of South Ossetia."
But Bush is acutely aware that Washington needs Moscow's support on several key outstanding international dossiers including the crisis over Iran's suspect nuclear program and moves to denuclearize North Korea.
In a plaintive reminder to the United States of its support for his 2003 Rose Revolution, Georgia's staunchly pro-Western President Mikheil Saakashvili sought to remind his ally of how far Tbilisi has come in the past few years.
"No country of the former Soviet Union has made more progress toward consolidating democracy, eradicating corruption and building an independent foreign policy than Georgia," he wrote Monday in the Wall Street Journal.
"This conflict is therefore about our common trans-Atlantic values of liberty and democracy," wrote the Georgian leader.
The most charismatic of the Rose Revolution leaders who ousted veteran leader and former Soviet foreign minister Eduard Shevardnadze, the US-educated Saakashvili swept to the presidency in early 2004 on a wave of popular support.
His efforts to implement sweeping free-market reforms won high praise from the West, including Bush, who hailed Georgia as "a beacon of democracy" during a 2005 visit to Tbilisi.
The United States is now seeking to win backing for a strongly worded UN Security Council resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire.
The resolution would also demand a return to the status quo before Georgia sent forces into its breakaway South Ossetia enclave.
But with Moscow holding a power of veto in the Security Council there is little chance that it will pass a resolution strongly criticizing its own actions, and discussions have been deadlocked for days.
US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has also been noticeably absent on the diplomatic scene, having failed to interrupt her holidays to fly to Tbilisi in support of the Georgian government.
Instead senior State Department official, Matthew Bryza, who oversees the Caucasus region was sent, two days later than planned, to join a joint EU-US mediation effort to win a ceasefire.
French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner, who is leading the mediation mission for the EU, said Monday the United States was "in a sense part of the conflict," between Russia and Georgia.
"You talk about the Americans, of course they are in a sense part of the conflict, that is why we must emphasise the presence and the strength of the European Union," Kouchner told French radio.
But State Department deputy spokesman Robert Wood sought Monday to dismiss the notion that the US was relatively powerless in face of the escalating conflict.
"We and the Europeans have leverage ... The Russians know how seriously we take the situation," he said.
"The US relations with Russia is of course a complicated one, but certainly Russia understands where we are on this conflict, where the European Union is on this conflict and we expect and hope that Russia will heed the call of the International community to stop the bombings, to agree to an immediate ceasefire and to have discussions with Georgia."
It states' in there that one of the things' that Washington is trying to do diplomatically, is to manuever the Russians' so as to still have their cooperation on other things, like Iran and N. Korea. But, if they act like this, why should we suppose that they would help us on those subjects' in any event?
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Whats going to be REALLY interesting is to see if more European countries want to sign up for the misslie defense system after all this mess.
The Cold War is cranking back up.
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This lack of action is why REAGAN told Europe not to build that pipeline because they would be slaves to the russian dogs... I wish we would move in force to aid Georgia, a very pro-western country in the region.
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This lack of action is why REAGAN told Europe not to build that pipeline because they would be slaves to the russian dogs... I wish we would move in force to aid Georgia, a very pro-western country in the region.
I wonder if we can-pulling those 2,000 Georgian troops' out of their positions' on the Iranian border is causing some problems.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080811/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_georgia (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080811/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_georgia)
And here's something you guys' might wanna take a look at, as to the speed of the russian advance:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080811/pl_afp/georgiarussiaunrestusmilitary (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080811/pl_afp/georgiarussiaunrestusmilitary)
BTW, where the hell's Boroda at???
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It's pretty much over, but for the finger pointing.
"A new Iron Curtain is descending around the periphery of Russia. Any chance of a new non-Russian pipeline out of Central Asia and into Europe is pretty much dead," says Chris Ruppel, an energy analyst at Execution, a Greenwich (Conn.) brokerage. "Russia has demonstrated that its military is a force to reckon with, that it can defeat a Western-trained force, and that the West and NATO will not act to intervene."
According to the experts; Europe's energy supplier is Russia. Ukraine has already had it's chain yanked... Putin has demonstrated he will cut off their fuel supplies... jut like he did in 2006.
Germany gets HALF it's energy from Russia. ALL of eastern europe, the former warsaw pact nations; are supplied in their entirety by Russia.
There ain't a snowballs chance in hell that Europe will defy them.
There ain't a snowball's chance in hell that the US can stop them.
All Hail Russia... the new Masters of Europe.
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/aug2008/db20080811_310322.htm (http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/aug2008/db20080811_310322.htm)
http://www.stormingmedia.us/76/7675/A767574.html (http://www.stormingmedia.us/76/7675/A767574.html)
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It's pretty much over, but for the finger pointing.
"A new Iron Curtain is descending around the periphery of Russia. Any chance of a new non-Russian pipeline out of Central Asia and into Europe is pretty much dead," says Chris Ruppel, an energy analyst at Execution, a Greenwich (Conn.) brokerage. "Russia has demonstrated that its military is a force to reckon with, that it can defeat a Western-trained force, and that the West and NATO will not act to intervene."
According to the experts; Europe's energy supplier is Russia. Ukraine has already had it's chain yanked... Putin has demonstrated he will cut off their fuel supplies... jut like he did in 2006.
Germany gets HALF it's energy from Russia. ALL of eastern europe, the former warsaw pact nations; are supplied in their entirety by Russia.
There ain't a snowballs chance in hell that Europe will defy them.
There ain't a snowball's chance in hell that the US can stop them.
All Hail Russia... the new Masters of Europe.
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/aug2008/db20080811_310322.htm (http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/aug2008/db20080811_310322.htm)
http://www.stormingmedia.us/76/7675/A767574.html (http://www.stormingmedia.us/76/7675/A767574.html)
...I see your point, Hangtime. Everything that we've seen over the last few day's might be leading up to this. I was reading some about it here:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080811/ap_on_re_eu/russia_the_energy_weapon (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080811/ap_on_re_eu/russia_the_energy_weapon)
The question is, will this affect elections' here in the U.S., when the prices' go up again...?
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and now we see why the b-2 and f-22 were made.
dominate the air and its game over.
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and now we see why the b-2 and f-22 were made.
dominate the air and its game over.
What, has our Airforce started operations' over there? I know the Russian's, using russian equipment like Tu-22's and Su-27's have put the Georgians' on the ground, but have we contested that yet?
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no, saying thats why weapons like the f22 and b2 are made, to keep whats happening to georgia from happening to us.
If Georgia controlled the air over their own country there would be piles of russia equipment on the borders.
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It's pretty much over, but for the finger pointing.
""Russia has demonstrated that its military is a force to reckon with, that it can defeat a Western-trained force, and that the West and NATO will not act to intervene."
He makes it sound as if the Russians defeated a major power. The country has only a few million people so how big is thier army?
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Maybe we should invade cuba in retaliation. If we did maybe some would go home and we'd get Miami back?
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Actually, I know a few Cubans who escaped the communist regime, now living in Florida, who would love to go back if they had a free country to go back to. I hope the US will take direct military action against the Russians. Georgia has become a strong ally for us, we should return the favor. Unfortunately Europe is to damn weak and short-sighted to see that the guys pulling the strings in Russia are the old KGB agents. They built the oil pipeline and are now russias slaves IF they do not get a backbone and act fast. We have seen these turds in action before and we know they will not stop. (Those of us old enough to remember)
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and now we see why the b-2 and f-22 were made.
dominate the air and its game over.
The B2 and the F22 won't do squat for us if nukes start falling on the US. AND, that is exactly what will end up happening if we engage Russian troops.
The Russians played this like a fiddle and a damn good fiddle at that.
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...I see your point, Hangtime. Everything that we've seen over the last few day's might be leading up to this. I was reading some about it here:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080811/ap_on_re_eu/russia_the_energy_weapon (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080811/ap_on_re_eu/russia_the_energy_weapon)
The question is, will this affect elections' here in the U.S., when the prices' go up again...?
Frode; the russki's have europe's nuts in a vise. If the europeans 'jump bad' the russki's shut down the pipelines. There is no other supply for the majority of the nations in europe; it's economic suicide to oppose the russki's.
Here, we've got our own supplies, as well as canada, mexico, nigeria and south america. We can stop importing middle eastern oil; pass those contracts to europe; but that's just a drop in the bucket; there's no long term relief there for the euro's. Further, since the world supply is limited and the near east, pacific rim, india and china are essentially competitors for the middle eastern oil supply, the euro's will likely not have much of a lever on the middle east to keep them from raping them... any more than we do.
So we; like the russians, AND europe are at a cusp... a decision point. Russia has the 'cat-bird seat'. The russians made their move; have revealed the stakes, and they have by their actions communicated their intent: 'Make it exceedingly clear to the west that Russia controls events on the ground here in our sphere of influence, not the west, and we can and will take the steps necessary to make that immutable fact clear.'
We can either bow, retire from the region; or we can go to war. There will be no middle ground. There's just too many people that need that energy.
Cold War again, folks. Get used to it.
As to this event vis a vis our election? The american people have a choice... 'negotiate' (Obama) or 'Stand Firm' (McCain). I don't think either of these guys will actually attempt to stop the russians with anything more significant than strongly worded protests delivered by courier to the russian embassy.
Unless Bush acts with implacable resolve, I guess we'll see in november just how long it'll take the russians to subdue europe.
Me? I take the nations military to it's highest level of alert; I'd move a Carrier Group into the Black Sea yesterday; declare a no-fly zone; destroy every single armored vehicle in Ossetia, shatter every rail line and highway from Russia into Georgia and get a pipeline built from Iraq to Ukraine... all while screaming at the russians as loudly and insanely as possible: 'NOBODY can invade a sovereign nation under our protection. Ever. I double-dog DARE you dumb bastards to launch anything that even remotely looks like a weapon of mass destruction... if you do; I will utterly erase your nation from the face of this planet... three times over; before you can even regret your parents wisdom in having given you birth."
All in; or don't play.
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All in; or don't play.
Hooah
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I have been wanting to knock a bear in the snot locker since I was a teen,... bring em on!
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Sometimes Hang, you're fun to have around. I agree completely.
The PROBLEM is that America, and most countries around the world for that matter, need to be conditioned to go to war. Wilson and FDR conditioned the american people for years through propaganda and fascistic practices to get an acceptable fighting force. In the past several years Russia has realized that it is way too diddlying corrupt to even try democracy. So they have been rekindling a totalitarian fascist state. The kicker is that they are too stupid to know any better and think the only good thing they ever had was the Soviet Union.
America, will not go to a real war with no fascistic fervor behind them, ESPECIALLY when they have to so easily see their dead soldiers on the evening news.
And every time I hear a condemnation from anyone over Russia's actions, I can't help but laugh. "Oh no! A stern word! What will they do next?"
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Bush also has an historical imperative.
Kuwait was attacked the same way and for the same reason (oil) when his father was president. Will Bush Jr. come back with the same response?
I don't think so. I would guess that a no-fly zone is a possibility and depend on the Georgians to stop the tanks. With some real good weapons systems passed to them to do the job.
Then wait for the diplomats.
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Sorry to sound like a pacifist(I'm not), but Jesus Christ guys!! Do you know what you're saying?? You REALLY want a war with Russia?
Do realize what that will do? Do you understand who Russia's allies are? You really think Europe will stand behind us????
Because the minute the US gets involved, that's what it will be.. United States vs. Russia and it's allies (that have ALWAYS been eager
to take a shot at the U.S., but were too afraid or weak to do it alone).. This will NOT be WWII type combat, gents.. They will bring the war to the U.S.
C'mon man... War with Russia on ANY scale is suicide for Russia AND the US, possibly the entire world.. It would start small, but
in no time it would get VERY big.. Probably even go Nuclear to one extent or another..
You do not understand the Russian mind.... Russia has no qualms about "civilian" casualties.. Russia has a
completely different outlook on humanity.. We in the west are mostly blind to this..
Many of us still believe the Russian Military is in disarray as it was in the 90's and earlier part of the 2000's...
However, do not fool yourselves.. Russia's economy is booming.... The US had been funding Russia's disarmament.. However, there is proof that those funds were diverted to restructuring and re-arming their military with state of the art equipment.. This is no longer a military full of outdated/broken down T-64's, T-72's, older Mig-29's, and Tu-95's.. They are getting closer and closer to the US's capabilites... And with China's help, they will surpass the US's capabilities.. AND THEY WILL BRING THE WAR TO US....
I've done much research on Russia's current military status and it is alarming.. They were/are preparing for this.. They could care less what the rest of the world thinks.. Putin is an Emperor.. He longs for Russia's (USSR's) glory days.. He's a VERY rich man and rich men long for more power, more influence.. And to be honest, to attempt to stop him will prove to be difficult.. HIS finger is STILL on the button..
You really and truly want that? For you? For your family? For your kids??
Think about what you're saying.... I realize the situation.. Georgia is an ally and a key energy conduit in the region. I am not blind to this..
It's obvious Russia has invaded to control this pipeline.. After this, Russia will have Europe by the balls.. But what else can the U.S. do without escalating the situation? Any U.S. military action in the region will be taken as a U.S. attack on Russia's interests and believe me, Russia will not ignore it for one second.. Russia will not have a problem going Nuclear if this escalates to serious U.S. intervention(sending in troops, air power, naval power).. That is reality.. They would have no problem even razing part of their own backyard just to rid themselves of the U.S. intervention as well as making a statement (Frak with us, and fry).. That would be a statement to Europe as well as the rest of the world..
This could be it..
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Sorry to sound like a pacifist(I'm not), but Jesus Christ guys!! Do you know what you're saying?? You REALLY want a war with Russia?
Do realize what that will do? Do you understand who Russia's allies are? You really think Europe will stand behind us????
Because the minute the US gets involved, that's what it will be.. United States vs. Russia and it's allies (that have ALWAYS been eager
to take a shot at the U.S., but were to afraid to do it alone).. This will NOT be WWII type combat, gents.. They will bring the war to the U.S.
C'mon man... War with Russia on ANY scale is suicide for Russia AND the US, possibly the entire world.. It would start small, but
in no time it would get VERY big.. Probably even go Nuclear to one extent or another..
You do not understand the Russian mind.... Russia has no qualms about "civilian" casualties.. Russia has a
completely different outlook on humanity.. We in the west are mostly blind to this..
Many of us still believe the Russian Military is in disarray as it was in the 90's and earlier part of the 2000's...
However, do not fool yourselves.. Russia's economy is booming.... The US had been funding Russia's disarmament.. However, there is proof that those funds were diverted to restructuring and re-arming their military with state of the art equipment.. This is no longer a military full of outdated/broken down T-64's, T-72's, older Mig-29's, and Tu-95's.. They are getting closer and closer to the US's capabilites... And with China's help, they will surpass the US's capabilities.. AND THEY WILL BRING THE WAR TO US....
I've done much research on Russia's current military status and it is alarming.. They were/are preparing for this.. They could care less what the rest of the world thinks.. Putin is an Emperor.. He longs for Russia's (USSR's) glory days.. He's a VERY rich man and rich men long for more power, more influence.. And to be honest, to attempt to stop him will prove to be difficult.. HIS finger is STILL on the button..
You really and truly want that? For you? For your family? For your kids??
Think about what you're saying.... I realize the situation.. Georgia is an ally and a key energy conduit in the region. I am not blind to this..
It's obvious Russia has invaded to control this pipeline.. After this, Russia will have Europe by the balls.. But what else can the U.S. do without escalating the situation? Any U.S. military action in the region will be taken as a U.S. attack on Russia's interests and believe me, Russia will not ignore it for one second.. Russia will not have a problem going Nuclear if this escalates to serious U.S. intervention(sending in troops, air power, naval power).. That is reality.. They would have no problem even razing part of their own backyard just to rid themselves of the U.S. intervention as well as making a statement (Frak with us, and fry).. That would be a statement to Europe as well as the rest of the world..
This could be it..
Hitler did the same thing. They tried appeasement then, too.
Just to ruin the mood of suspense, because I'm sure you don't know... We ended up fighting Hitler after appeasement didn't work.
Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it.
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Hitler did the same thing. They tried appeasement then, too.
Just to ruin the mood of suspense, because I'm sure you don't know... We ended up fighting Hitler after appeasement didn't work.
Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it.
Ok, is there a reason for you saying this? I am well versed in history and this is something every 4th grader knows.. Please.....No need for those kinds of remarks...
If you see this as appeasement, you are mistaken.... It's being realistic.... It's about survival...
What's the point in getting involved if MIRV's are going to be raining down on us and making pretty mushroom clouds??
There are other ways to "fight".... Economically, politically, etc. And even then, it'd be difficult.. As I said, Russia's economy is booming..
Don't let their recent stockmarket drop fool you.. They have a staunch alley in China, Serbia, Iran, N. Korea, Cuba, just to name a few.. All countries close or very near to U.S. interests in those particular regions.. We have mainly Europe and a few other countries that would be "absorbed" by Russia's allies, and Europe (who probably wouldn't fight anyway since Russia will more or less have them by the balls)..
Also, Hitler didn't have Nukes and was not capable of carrying the fight to the U.S. or it's major interests on any major scale besides stalking its coastlines in U-boats..
Again, no need for such comments, sir.... This can be debated or discussed intelligently without baseless insults..
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All this talk is for naught.
The next 10 days will dictate the next 3-5 decades of control over non-Arab middle east (Ukraine to Tajikistan)
US military doctrine has always provided for the US engaged in 2 major wars. We're in Afghanistan and Iraq. That's 1.5 wars. The Russians have caught us pants down in the "War on Terror" and we can't /won't do chit.
Gawd I hope the Georgians can make some IED's and/or the Israelis get some anti-air missiles and anti tank missiles into Georgia ASAP.
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Ok, is there a reason for you saying this? I am well versed in history and this is something every 4th grader knows.. Please.....No need for those kinds of remarks...
If you see this as appeasement, you are mistaken.... It's being realistic.... It's about survival...
What's the point in getting involved if MIRV's are going to be raining down on us and making pretty mushroom clouds??
There are other ways to "fight".... Economically, politically, etc. And even then, it'd be difficult.. As I said, Russia's economy is booming..
Don't let their recent stockmarket drop fool you.. They have a staunch alley in China, Serbia, Iran, N. Korea, Cuba, just to name a few.. All countries close or very near to U.S. interests in those particular regions.. We have mainly Europe and a few other countries that would be "absorbed" by Russia's allies, and Europe (who probably wouldn't fight anyway since Russia will more or less have them by the balls)..
Also, Hitler didn't have Nukes and was not capable of carrying the fight to the U.S. or it's major interests on any major scale besides stalking its coastlines in U-boats..
Again, no need for such comments, sir.... This can be debated or discussed intelligently without baseless insults..
IF it came to blows with Russia, I seriously doubt the use of nukes by either side. To do so would bring the wrath of the entire world upon you.
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All this talk is for naught.
The next 10 days will dictate the next 3-5 decades of control over non-Arab middle east (Ukraine to Tajikistan)
US military doctrine has always provided for the US engaged in 2 major wars. We're in Afghanistan and Iraq. That's 1.5 wars. The Russians have caught us pants down in the "War on Terror" and we can't /won't do chit.
Gawd I hope the Georgians can make some IED's and/or the Israelis get some anti-air missiles and anti tank missiles into Georgia ASAP.
lol that's nice...
Turn Georgia into a terrorist haven with Western TM support.
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lol that's nice...
Turn Georgia into a terrorist haven with Western TM support.
---
It's been done before...
Who provided Stinger missile systems to the precursor Taliban in Afghanistan?
Why were we worried about our own technology shooting down our planes when we eventually went in there?
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It's been done before...
Who provided Stinger missile systems to the precursor Taliban in Afghanistan?
Why were we worried about our own technology shooting down our planes when we eventually went in there?
So few words, so much truth.
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So few words, so much truth.
Horsepucky.
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1) It would be a mistake to underestimate Russia's rearming efforts.
2) Also the US is not capable of fighting a brutal Russian war.
3) It is also very dangerous to engage in a "limited" war.
4) ... and you can't let Russia get away with this sort of thing.
Instead of confronting Russia with weapons, I would use economic weapons. This involves strengthening the dollar and developing an alternative to Russian controlled energy. Strengthening the dollar means balancing the budget. Cutting out earmarks and limiting entitlements. But the key is alternative energy. Would you rather spend 500 billion on war with Russia or a crash alternative energy program? What if we built 10,000 wind turbines in the Great Plains and gave away the electricity so everyone could afford electric cars. Or use the electricity to produce hydrogen and the whole world would come to the US for hydrogen cars.
Take the price of oil to $25 a barrel and laugh at the Russians as they starve to death. You can't eat oil.
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Horsepucky.
So...we did not provide assistance to the mujahideen in Afghanistan? We did not contribute to the Islamic ruled state?
edit:
From Wikipedia (I know..but at this hour, I don't have time or energy to go "deeper"):
On July 3, 1979, U.S. President Carter signed a presidential finding authorizing funding for anticommunist guerrillas in Afghanistan.[3] Following the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and installation of a more pro-Soviet president, Babrak Karmal, Carter announced, "The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan is the greatest threat to peace since the Second World War".
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Reagan did warn about the pipeline; his warning was valid. Now Europe is dependent on Russian energy. As much or more than we depend on Arab oil.
Russia played the long game and won.
Game/Set/Match/Gold Medal to Russia. Well played.
Everyone else: Lie back and enjoy it. Or at least pretend to do so.
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Sorry to sound like a pacifist(I'm not), but Jesus Christ guys!! Do you know what you're saying?? You REALLY want a war with Russia?
Do realize what that will do? Do you understand who Russia's allies are? You really think Europe will stand behind us????
Because the minute the US gets involved, that's what it will be.. United States vs. Russia and it's allies (that have ALWAYS been eager
to take a shot at the U.S., but were too afraid or weak to do it alone).. This will NOT be WWII type combat, gents.. They will bring the war to the U.S.
C'mon man... War with Russia on ANY scale is suicide for Russia AND the US, possibly the entire world.. It would start small, but
in no time it would get VERY big.. Probably even go Nuclear to one extent or another..
You do not understand the Russian mind.... Russia has no qualms about "civilian" casualties.. Russia has a
completely different outlook on humanity.. We in the west are mostly blind to this..
Many of us still believe the Russian Military is in disarray as it was in the 90's and earlier part of the 2000's...
However, do not fool yourselves.. Russia's economy is booming.... The US had been funding Russia's disarmament.. However, there is proof that those funds were diverted to restructuring and re-arming their military with state of the art equipment.. This is no longer a military full of outdated/broken down T-64's, T-72's, older Mig-29's, and Tu-95's.. They are getting closer and closer to the US's capabilites... And with China's help, they will surpass the US's capabilities.. AND THEY WILL BRING THE WAR TO US....
I've done much research on Russia's current military status and it is alarming.. They were/are preparing for this.. They could care less what the rest of the world thinks.. Putin is an Emperor.. He longs for Russia's (USSR's) glory days.. He's a VERY rich man and rich men long for more power, more influence.. And to be honest, to attempt to stop him will prove to be difficult.. HIS finger is STILL on the button..
You really and truly want that? For you? For your family? For your kids??
Think about what you're saying.... I realize the situation.. Georgia is an ally and a key energy conduit in the region. I am not blind to this..
It's obvious Russia has invaded to control this pipeline.. After this, Russia will have Europe by the balls.. But what else can the U.S. do without escalating the situation? Any U.S. military action in the region will be taken as a U.S. attack on Russia's interests and believe me, Russia will not ignore it for one second.. Russia will not have a problem going Nuclear if this escalates to serious U.S. intervention(sending in troops, air power, naval power).. That is reality.. They would have no problem even razing part of their own backyard just to rid themselves of the U.S. intervention as well as making a statement (Frak with us, and fry).. That would be a statement to Europe as well as the rest of the world..
This could be it..
Good Post....
I'll just say that the U.S. has recently lost all it's balls for anything. We can't beat russia...It's mutal distuction and economic ruin to fight them. Then communist china will be the only superpower left.
Keep your friends close...and your enemies closer.
No country is totally an allie any more....save Britian and the U.S. maybe.....The whole world would be just sitting back waiting for us to destroy one another...and they would be fighting over whats left.
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So...we did not provide assistance to the mujahideen in Afghanistan? We did not contribute to the Islamic ruled state?
edit:
From Wikipedia (I know..but at this hour, I don't have time or energy to go "deeper"):
On July 3, 1979, U.S. President Carter signed a presidential finding authorizing funding for anticommunist guerrillas in Afghanistan.[3] Following the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and installation of a more pro-Soviet president, Babrak Karmal, Carter announced, "The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan is the greatest threat to peace since the Second World War".
That's not the horsepucky part. Find me a link to a single US helicopter or Aircraft shot down in Afghanistan with a Stinger Missile provided to the Mujahideen 20 years perviously. You won't. Why? No replacement batteries. Even the Chinese attempt at building a battery that will run that device failed. Fuel is stagnant also... limited lifespan weapon.
Hence; Bullpucky.
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... "Russia has demonstrated that its military is a force to reckon with, that it can defeat a Western-trained force, and that the West and NATO will not act to intervene." [/i]
I'd just like to point out that Georgian units trained by the US military are mainly shit and that they routinely sought to steal whatever they could get their hands while deployed to Iraq. This was brought up in a thread a few months ago, and I will find the source shortly, but it certainly does not set any kind of precedent for a broken Russian military maneuver claiming victory over some novice "US trained" units! I hardly believe that, in such short order, we were able to train anyone to our standards with merely 100 'advisors' in one location. Hang, as you mentioned earlier in this thread, victory in a full-blown conventional conflict with Russia would certainly lie in the hands of the US, should push come to shove.
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That's not the horsepucky part. Find me a link to a single US helicopter or Aircraft shot down in Afghanistan with a Stinger Missile provided to the Mujahideen 20 years perviously. You won't. Why? No replacement batteries. Even the Chinese attempt at building a battery that will run that device failed. Fuel is stagnant also... limited lifespan weapon.
Hence; Bullpucky.
I claimed we helped the Taliban take over Afghanistan by providing support and technology (one example: in the form of Stinger missiles) to the mujahideen.
They DID shoot down Soviet aircraft and we were worried (see article below) about them using them against us (via black market trading).
We did help make Afghanistan a terrorist haven and we were worried them using that technology against us. All I said. 100% true.
---
"U.S. Increases Fund To Outbid Terrorists For Afghan Missiles
By TIM WEINER,
The Central Intelligence Agency's covert operations division will spend $55 million in a new effort to buy back more than 300 Stinger antiaircraft missiles it gave to guerrillas fighting the Soviet-backed Government of Afghanistan in the 1980's, Government and intelligence officials say."
edit:
U.S. Worries Over Missiles It Gave Afghan Rebels
By EDMUND L. ANDREWS,
Now that Muslim rebels have overthrown the Government of Afghanistan, American military experts said today that they were concerned that unused Stinger antiaircraft missiles supplied by the United States to the rebels could make their way to Iran or to international terrorist groups. Moreover, they said, it will be difficult for the United States to recover the weapons, at least any time soon.
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Hang, as you mentioned earlier in this thread, victory in a full-blown conventional conflict with Russia would certainly lie in the hands of the US, should push come to shove.
Yup.. we can do it.
Question is; will we?
For you panzies out there crying about the Nukes... we've fought the russians before. We did it for 50 years. Some years hot, some by proxy, a lot of years cold. They got nukes, we got nukes. They were not used because they knew, as we knew, that the first guy to launch one will, without any question of doubt, be signing his own and his family's death warrant... men, women, kids. Every single living creature more evolved than a cockroach dies because there is NO way either side can assure survival.
It was called MAD; Mutually Assured Destruction.
Such a policy takes huge balls.
And everything we have.. this world has, YOU have is because THIS nation had the balls, once; to make that stand, pay that price, and live proudly with that sword over our heads.
'NOBODY can invade a sovereign nation under our protection. Ever. I double-dog DARE you dumb bastards to launch anything that even remotely looks like a weapon of mass destruction... if you do; The United States of America and it's Allies will utterly erase your nation from the face of this planet... three times over; before you can even regret your parents wisdom in having given you birth."
That's what kept Europe free.
OBTW Europe.... Yer welcome; puzzies. And you kids that grew up post-cold war... you ain't got the balls. Obviously. Such is our brave new world.
Frankly, the old one had a helluva lot more cache'. Every stolen kiss, every caught fish, every little victory in life had more flavor... what we have to look forward to now is like life on death row. The sentence has already been pronounced. We're just marking the time till they get around to the execution.
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I claimed we helped the Taliban take over Afghanistan by providing support and technology (one example: in the form of Stinger missiles) to the mujahideen.
They DID shoot down Soviet aircraft and we were worried (see article below) about them using them against us (via black market trading).
We did help make Afghanistan a terrorist haven and we were worried them using that technology against us. All I said. 100% true.
---
"U.S. Increases Fund To Outbid Terrorists For Afghan Missiles
By TIM WEINER,
The Central Intelligence Agency's covert operations division will spend $55 million in a new effort to buy back more than 300 Stinger antiaircraft missiles it gave to guerrillas fighting the Soviet-backed Government of Afghanistan in the 1980's, Government and intelligence officials say."
edit:
U.S. Worries Over Missiles It Gave Afghan Rebels
By EDMUND L. ANDREWS,
Now that Muslim rebels have overthrown the Government of Afghanistan, American military experts said today that they were concerned that unused Stinger antiaircraft missiles supplied by the United States to the rebels could make their way to Iran or to international terrorist groups. Moreover, they said, it will be difficult for the United States to recover the weapons, at least any time soon.
Both those articles have got to be at least 10-15 years old. Again... find me ONE instance of a US Gunship or Aircraft dropped by a Afgan Invasion era Stinger missile.
Repeating... horsepucky.
-
Sorry to sound like a pacifist(I'm not), but Jesus Christ guys!! Do you know what you're saying?? You REALLY want a war with Russia?
Do realize what that will do? Do you understand who Russia's allies are? You really think Europe will stand behind us????
Because the minute the US gets involved, that's what it will be.. United States vs. Russia and it's allies (that have ALWAYS been eager
to take a shot at the U.S., but were too afraid or weak to do it alone).. This will NOT be WWII type combat, gents.. They will bring the war to the U.S.
C'mon man... War with Russia on ANY scale is suicide for Russia AND the US, possibly the entire world.. It would start small, but
in no time it would get VERY big.. Probably even go Nuclear to one extent or another..
You do not understand the Russian mind.... Russia has no qualms about "civilian" casualties.. Russia has a
completely different outlook on humanity.. We in the west are mostly blind to this..
Many of us still believe the Russian Military is in disarray as it was in the 90's and earlier part of the 2000's...
However, do not fool yourselves.. Russia's economy is booming.... The US had been funding Russia's disarmament.. However, there is proof that those funds were diverted to restructuring and re-arming their military with state of the art equipment.. This is no longer a military full of outdated/broken down T-64's, T-72's, older Mig-29's, and Tu-95's.. They are getting closer and closer to the US's capabilites... And with China's help, they will surpass the US's capabilities.. AND THEY WILL BRING THE WAR TO US....
I've done much research on Russia's current military status and it is alarming.. They were/are preparing for this.. They could care less what the rest of the world thinks.. Putin is an Emperor.. He longs for Russia's (USSR's) glory days.. He's a VERY rich man and rich men long for more power, more influence.. And to be honest, to attempt to stop him will prove to be difficult.. HIS finger is STILL on the button..
You really and truly want that? For you? For your family? For your kids??
Think about what you're saying.... I realize the situation.. Georgia is an ally and a key energy conduit in the region. I am not blind to this..
It's obvious Russia has invaded to control this pipeline.. After this, Russia will have Europe by the balls.. But what else can the U.S. do without escalating the situation? Any U.S. military action in the region will be taken as a U.S. attack on Russia's interests and believe me, Russia will not ignore it for one second.. Russia will not have a problem going Nuclear if this escalates to serious U.S. intervention(sending in troops, air power, naval power).. That is reality.. They would have no problem even razing part of their own backyard just to rid themselves of the U.S. intervention as well as making a statement (Frak with us, and fry).. That would be a statement to Europe as well as the rest of the world..
This could be it..
Thats exactly why the west should stand up to them. If they get away with this they won't stop.
Just look at Boroda's posts. They think nobody can stop them. Pretty much the same thing Hitler thought.
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Both those articles have got to be at least 10-15 years old. Again... find me ONE instance of a US Gunship or Aircraft dropped by a Afgan Invasion era Stinger missile.
Repeating... horsepucky.
Holy squealing Crap Batman...I used past tense. No surprise that the articles are 10-15 years old.
Dude, are you short on reading comprehension...or just looking for an intardnet fight?
I responded to mg1942 by saying we've made terrorists before. In the process I said the US was worried about "blowback". We helped make Afghanistan what it is today.
----- I did not claim that Stingers shot down US aircraft. -------
If you think I did...please post the lines and your interpretation.
From my original post, quoted by Karaya, who was quoted by you...
It's been done before... (notice that this is PAST tense)
Who provided Stinger missile systems to the precursor Taliban in Afghanistan? (again "provided" is PAST tense)
Why were we worried about our own technology shooting down our planes when we eventually went in there? ("were we worried" is also PAST tense)
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Just look at Boroda's posts.
Does anyone actually take him seriously? You can brush aside all the Pravda stuff he spouts.....but calling other human beings vermin?
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IF it came to blows with Russia, I seriously doubt the use of nukes by either side. To do so would bring the wrath of the entire world upon you.
Not so.... It would set an example.. You think China or any of Russia's other allies would bring it's wrath upon Russia? Doubtful.. They would most likely have a festival.. Russian military doctrine dictates ruthlessness, mutually assured destruction or not....
Also, Russia is vast... Not quite as vast as the days of the Soviet Union.. But it is still huge.. A few nukes do nothing more than eliminate a small percentage of it's population.. It would take an all out Nuclear Assault by the U.S and if it came down to that, you can say goodbye to everyone but the most primitive tribes in the most remote locations.. Don't forget about it's allies, some of which have Nuclear capability as well (Russia would have no problem arming it's allies that don't and the world could only complain about it).. Any military move against Russia is futile for the time being..
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I responded to mg1942 by saying we've made terrorists before
Excuse me?
We helped make Afghanistan what it is today.
No we didn't. The Afghans made Afghanistan what it is.
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Holy squealing Crap Batman...I used past tense. No surprise that the articles are 10-15 years old.
Dude, are you short on reading comprehension...or just looking for an intardnet fight?
I responded to mg1942 by saying we've made terrorists before. In the process I said the US was worried about "blowback". We helped make Afghanistan what it is today.
----- I did not claim that Stingers shot down US aircraft. -------
If you think I did...please post the lines and your interpretation.
From my original post, quoted by Karaya, who was quoted by you...
It's been done before... (notice that this is PAST tense)
Who provided Stinger missile systems to the precursor Taliban in Afghanistan? (again "provided" is PAST tense)
Why were we worried about our own technology shooting down our planes when we eventually went in there? ("were we worried" is also PAST tense)
The point of those posts, yours and his, was to warn us off from supplying the Georgians due to the risk of the weapons being used against us. Since the example given, stingers supplied to mujadeen being used against us; never materialized, the point of the posts was, and is... bullpucky.
Comprende?
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Not so.... It would set an example.. You think China or any of Russia's other allies would bring it's wrath upon Russia? Doubtful.. They would most likely have a festival.. Russian military doctrine dictates ruthlessness, mutually assured destruction or not....
Also, Russia is vast... Not quite as vast as the days of the Soviet Union.. But it is still huge.. A few nukes do nothing more than eliminate a small percentage of it's population.. It would take an all out Nuclear Assault by the U.S and if it came down to that, you can say goodbye to everyone but the most primitive tribes in the most remote locations.. Don't forget about it's allies, some of which have Nuclear capability as well (Russia would have no problem arming it's allies that don't and the world could only complain about it).. Any military move against Russia is futile for the time being..
I don't believe any country (with the possible exception of North Korea) would sanction the use of nuclear weapons by either side. Even Britain would not stand by our side if we used nuclear weapons first. I don't believe China would stand by Russia if Russia went nuclear. The whole idea of using nuclear weapons is just to repulsive to almost everyone except maybe Russia and North Korea.
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The point of those posts, yours and his, was to warn us off from supplying the Georgians due to the risk of the weapons being used against us. Since the example given, stingers supplied to mujadeen being used against us; never materialized, the point of the posts was, and is... bullpucky.
Comprende?
You are never wrong, are you? Jebus :rolleyes:
US military doctrine has always provided for the US engaged in 2 major wars. We're in Afghanistan and Iraq. That's 1.5 wars. The Russians have caught us pants down in the "War on Terror" and we can't /won't do chit.
Gawd I hope the Georgians can make some IED's and/or the Israelis get some anti-air missiles and anti tank missiles into Georgia ASAP.
I said we can't do chit. Let's see if I'm wrong. I didn't say we shouldn't get involved. If that's what you'd like me to have said...yay.
I actually hope the Georgian's drag Russia into an extended conflict after they are overrun. Hence my statement about hoping they can make IEDs.
I've got better things to do...like look at porn or get some sleep.
<S> Intardnet warrior
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Not so.... It would set an example.. You think China or any of Russia's other allies would bring it's wrath upon Russia? Doubtful.. They would most likely have a festival.. Russian military doctrine dictates ruthlessness, mutually assured destruction or not....
Also, Russia is vast... Not quite as vast as the days of the Soviet Union.. But it is still huge.. A few nukes do nothing more than eliminate a small percentage of it's population.. It would take an all out Nuclear Assault by the U.S and if it came down to that, you can say goodbye to everyone but the most primitive tribes in the most remote locations.. Don't forget about it's allies, some of which have Nuclear capability as well (Russia would have no problem arming it's allies that don't and the world could only complain about it).. Any military move against Russia is futile for the time being..
You have, young padawan; defined Mutually Assured Destruction in you post. I highlighted it for you, in case your mind still does not grasp the concept.
Now, explain why you can't comprehend that it, in itself, is a deterrent against the use of those weapons by either the US or Russia.
Then, after you dream up why it won't work, you can explain to us all why it did work for 50 years.
Keep it short.. I'm getting bored.
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You are never wrong, are you? Jebus :rolleyes:
You'd enjoy a conversation with my ex-wife. Me; yer not havin' much luck with, are yah?
;) <S!>
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Excuse me?
No we didn't. The Afghans made Afghanistan what it is.
Yes, you are correct. I was simplifying for sake of argument with Hangtime. We helped Islamists, now we are fighting Islamists.
Their decision whether or not to fight us, yes.
<S>
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Then, after you dream up why it won't work, you can explain to us all why it did work for 50 years.
Keep it short.. I'm getting bored.
Well, for those fifty years, neither Washington nor Moscow was being overrun.
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Vote for Obama and he'll talk to the commies spreading good will and cheer to all. Well, except perhaps to the Georgians, and whoever else Russia decides to absorb.
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Well, for those fifty years, neither Washington nor Moscow was being overrun.
Nice, short; to the point.
Note that we do not wish to invade moscow. We just want 'em to keep the finger off the nuke triggers while we conventionally dissuade them from annexing georgia and remind them that they really don't wanna invade anybody else with a democratic government that's our ally.
BTW... I'm well aware that we'll never grow the sack necessary to hold off the russians now or later... only that just now, we do have the capability to kick their asses... posthumously via the MAD option or conventionally using the tech we currently have.
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Please, don't patronize.. These are simple facts that every highschool kid should know.. C'mon...
You don't impress by giving information that anyone over the age of 25 playing this game would know... :rofl
Russia HAS balls... It has balls because it obviously could give two (insert bad word here) about what the rest of the world thinks (proven by it's recent action). It has maintained it's Nuclear Capability even when it was bankrupt for just such an occasion as this.. ANYONE, including the U.S. steps one foot in that region and it will escalate.. Russia sees it's old Soviet satellite states as still being under it's influence(or at least should be). I would not be surprised if the Ukraine is next with its threats of not allowing Russian ships back into port.. Please get updated on your information... The Fox News Network is not a good source.. Neither is CNN...
War with Russia is a suicidal move.. And to start war based on principals alone is futile.. The U.S. military is tied up in so many different regions at the moment, moral is low due to long and drawn out deployments.. It would be impossible for the U.S. to do anything worth even mentioning.. U.S. will just have to chalk Georgia up as a loss.. I'm afraid this is realism for you..
In a perfect word, it'd be great to just send in the Navy, Army, Airforce, Marines, and even the Coast Guard to do a WWII type Normandy invasion and nip Russia in the bud before it decides to expand anymore.. However, we are not in a perfect world.. There will be MAJOR consequences for the U.S. if we get militarily involved.. We are not untouchable.. Especially when it comes to Russia...
Yup.. we can do it.
Question is; will we?
For you panzies out there crying about the Nukes... we've fought the russians before. We did it for 50 years. Some years hot, some by proxy, a lot of years cold. They got nukes, we got nukes. They were not used because they knew, as we knew, that the first guy to launch one will, without any question of doubt, be signing his own and his family's death warrant... men, women, kids. Every single living creature more evolved than a cockroach dies because there is NO way either side can assure survival.
It was called MAD; Mutually Assured Destruction.
Such a policy takes huge balls.
And everything we have.. this world has, YOU have is because THIS nation had the balls, once; to make that stand, pay that price, and live proudly with that sword over our heads.
'NOBODY can invade a sovereign nation under our protection. Ever. I double-dog DARE you dumb bastards to launch anything that even remotely looks like a weapon of mass destruction... if you do; The United States of America and it's Allies will utterly erase your nation from the face of this planet... three times over; before you can even regret your parents wisdom in having given you birth."
That's what kept Europe free.
OBTW Europe.... Yer welcome; puzzies. And you kids that grew up post-cold war... you ain't got the balls. Obviously. Such is our brave new world.
Frankly, the old one had a helluva lot more cache'. Every stolen kiss, every caught fish, every little victory in life had more flavor... what we have to look forward to now is like life on death row. The sentence has already been pronounced. We're just marking the time till they get around to the execution.
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Please, don't patronize.. These are simple facts that every highschool kid should know.. C'mon...
You don't impress by giving information that anyone over the age of 25 playing this game would know... :rofl
Russia HAS balls... It has balls because it obviously could give two (insert bad word here) about what the rest of the world thinks (proven by it's recent action). It has maintained it's Nuclear Capability even when it was bankrupt for just such an occasion as this.. ANYONE, including the U.S. steps one foot in that region and it will escalate.. Russia sees it's old Soviet satellite states as still being under it's influence(or at least should be). I would not be surprised if the Ukraine is next with its threats of not allowing Russian ships back into port.. Please get updated on your information... The Fox News Network is not a good source.. Neither is CNN...
War with Russia is a suicidal move.. And to start war based on principals alone is futile.. The U.S. military is tied up in so many different regions at the moment, moral is low due to long and drawn out deployments.. It would be impossible for the U.S. to do anything worth even mentioning.. U.S. will just have to chalk Georgia up as a loss.. I'm afraid this is realism for you..
In a perfect word, it'd be great to just send in the Navy, Army, Airforce, Marines, and even the Coast Guard to do a WWII type Normandy invasion and nip Russia in the bud before it decides to expand anymore.. However, we are not in a perfect world.. There will be MAJOR consequences for the U.S. if we get militarily involved.. We are not untouchable.. Especially when it comes to Russia...
You get patronized because your postulations hinge on 'it's to hard, it's not worth it'.
Sorry. But by your reasoning we should never have entered WWII when England's back was against the wall, we should never have attacked at Guadalcanal 6 months after Pear Harbor, we should never have landed at Inchon when we were down to 1/2 division backed up against the sea 150 miles away, we should never have driven the Cong and the NVA back when the launched the TET offensive... let alone a dozen or more other times when the men of this country saddled up and got the damn job done.
Go back to sellin the kiddies on why we can't win. I ain't buying any.
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Thats exactly why the west should stand up to them. If they get away with this they won't stop.
Just look at Boroda's posts. They think nobody can stop them. Pretty much the same thing Hitler thought.
The U.S. cannot and will not do it alone.. And to be honest, we cannot count on Europe to fight for itself, even though many Western European countries have quite sophisticated arms that rival the U.S.
I still don't think my point is being understood.. You folks saying we should get involved do not understand the Russian frame work of political and military thinking.. You can't just go in and "stop" them.. Russia has maintained its Nuclear arsenal even through it's economically difficult times for a reason.. I think we are starting to see that reason.. Regardless of what many might think, it has a vast and modern conventional capability as well..
Let's talk tactics here.. How does one propose we being to "stop them"? Where and how do we pull troops from?? Where do we set them up? Eastern Europe? Russia will obviously know we would be sending forces in.. The don't have to move as far as the U.S. would.. They would amass troops much more quickly than we ever could.. It would be a war of attrition (IF it stayed conventional) and they would eventually over run any opposition due to superiority in numbers and equipment.. Not to mention, China would most likely get involved after a time, as well as other Russian Allies.. If things start to go badly, I doubt Russia goes to the bargaining table.. Instead, they'll say "Back the F off or we launch at YOU (U.S) AND your allies"...
And as I said, I would not put much faith in Europe getting involved..
But seriously, how would one propose to go ahead and "stop them"?
I really hate to say it... But Russia has the advantage in this situation in almost every way...
The U.S. REALLY and TRULY got caught with it's pants down.... Should've listened to Reagan...
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Kennedy had the resolve to stop the Soviets at great cost, so did Reagan. The Soviets were not so bold as to provoke a massive retaliation in those days mainly because they knew where the line was. Today I'm not so sure.
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I dont believe Bush has the desire to do anything. Its the end of his term and Congress would not stand for it anyway. He could get us into it and then we would be right back out of it by February. Putin knows how our political system works and I would not be surprised of Pelosi was sharing notes with him anyway... really.
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Wow... You just don't see logic... You really don't...
You are patronizing because you mention significant events in history and talk as if no one has ever heard about them before..
You want to go to war and are all gung-ho about it, but speak NOTHING of the consequences of doing so.... Think about those consequences for a moment....
You keep bringing up instances from WWII, Vietnam, or Korea and those conflicts have absolutely nothing to do with this...
It's not that it's too hard... It's logistics and the possible outcome (most likely bad)... Where do we bring these troops from?
From Iraq where most guys are into there 3rd and 4th tours and just want to sweet go home?? Moral is low, my friend....
Every person I know who's military is terrified of being deployed there..
You make intervention in Georgia sound as if we just go in and "kick ass" and it's all over.... Armchair generals....Gotta love 'em!! :lol
Look, I'm am obviously way out of your league when it comes to world events and how the world actually works and what's at stake here....
You obviously don't understand the Russian political system as well as it's military.. For that, I suggest you actually read up on some of it, and then we can debate this logically instead of you tossing insults that really don't say anything..
What's with the toughguy rhetoric, anyway?? Seriously.. Can you debate this logically??
You say that by my reasoning we shouldn't "have entered WWII when England's back was against the wall, we should never have attacked at Guadalcanal 6 months after Pear Harbor, we should never have landed at Inchon when we were down to 1/2 division backed up against the sea 150 miles away, we should never have driven the Cong and the NVA back when the launched the TET offensive... let alone a dozen or more other times when the men of this country saddled up and got the damn job done".
First of all, we didn't enter WWII because England's back was against the wall.. We entered because we were attacked(Pearl Harbor).
I know you know this... So why otherwise??
Neither of those powers we went up against at those times had the nuclear option.. We live in a completely different world today.. I guarantee you that if we begin to set foot on what Russia already considers theirs, this will escalate, and the Nuclear option WILL be on the table for them.. Why you don't understand this, I'm not sure.... Russia(the Soviet Union) thinks, and has always thought that it could withstand a Nuclear onslaught due to it's vastness and it's own capability to make 2,3,4, even 5 large Nuclear exchanges with the U.S. and it's allies.. Unlike the U.S., Russia and China STILL drill its citizens on what to do in disaster situations (most notably Nuclear Attack).. They are prepared.. They know the U.S. is weak in this aspect.. Also, Russia knows full well that we will not fire until fired upon.. The Topol-M is the most advanced missile delivery system to date.. Read up on it.. It has the ability to avoid interceptor missiles, it has counter measures, it's designed to be able to withstand anything thrown at it even another nuclear blast.. It was made to be launched at the U.S. First strike is the key.. And they will make sure they make the first strike if the U.S. decides to intervene on a progressively large scale.. If you are ignorant of this fact, please do some reading on Russian culture, Russian Politics, and the Russian Military (both modern and old).
And I'm not just "postulating" that "oh, it's too hard.....oh, we can't win...." You seem to think I'm some whiny little liberal or something..
It's not about that... War with Russia on a large scale will have severe consequences.. And I'm not talking about a halt in car production for several years(no new cars were manufactured from 1941-1945)... I'm not talking about being frugal with everything because G.I. Joe on the front line needs it more than you...
You get patronized because your postulations hinge on 'it's to hard, it's not worth it'.
Sorry. But by your reasoning we should never have entered WWII when England's back was against the wall, we should never have attacked at Guadalcanal 6 months after Pear Harbor, we should never have landed at Inchon when we were down to 1/2 division backed up against the sea 150 miles away, we should never have driven the Cong and the NVA back when the launched the TET offensive... let alone a dozen or more other times when the men of this country saddled up and got the damn job done.
Go back to sellin the kiddies on why we can't win. I ain't buying any.
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But seriously, how would one propose to go ahead and "stop them"?
We could negotiate... on a level Russians understand. Start with a note to the Russian Ambassador:
Your government has, by it's recent invasion of Georgia; eradicated 27 years of re-apporachment and common purpose good will. We'd like to inform you that the initial price for invading an ally of the United States is the seizure of all assets owned by Russian business interests in the United States; both national and private, to be held against the cost of rebuilding and repairing what you have destroyed.
Your continued uninvited presence on the sovereign soil of Georgia beyond 00:00 gmt tomorrow will result in the systematic destruction by conventional means, of every asset and article of russian military hardware south of the Georgian border.
Further, Russian Embassies and Consulates on American soil are hereby ordered closed, your diplomats and consular liaisons deemed unwanted on American soil. All Russian national passport Visas are herewith canceled.
It is also germane to indicate that any move, overt or subvert against our european allies would be looked upon as an escalation of hostilities. We have no wish to damage russian assets in russia or abroad; but we will, without hesitation, confiscate, render or cause those assets to become forever useless, starting with those facilities we deem hostile of purpose.
We have no desire to employ any form of weapon of mass destruction. However, we feel it is utterly important to remind the Russian President and his Prime Minister that the United States of America retains, as do you; enough nuclear, chemical and biological capability to render the entire planet uninhabitable... any move, in any location on this planet to employ such a device would be answered by this nation with an overwhelming retaliatory strike against your homeland and it's armed allies.
Your departure from Georgia is not debatable. What is debatable is the means of your departure. If your government so choses, they may immediately begin disengagement and start for the border and the United States will place on hold the punitive measures outlined above.
*sigh*
We could... but; since we're owned by corporate interests, the concept of nationalism is sounding weak; even to me.
*sigh*
Damn, where's the nation our fathers served?
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Hey Anodizer, err, Ramzey, welcome to the discussion.
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Hey Anodizer, err, Ramzey, welcome to the discussion.
lala, lala , lala, Octavius shooting blanks.................
you are mistaken my friend, i don't do shade on AHBB, neither anywhere else
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*sigh*
We could... but; since we're owned by corporate interests, the concept of nationalism is sounding weak; even to me.
*sigh*
Damn, where's the nation our fathers served?
What you've just said reminds me of something, Hangtime...
This country's still led by a batpoop-crazy Texan.
All we really know is, that he's trying to use diplomacy. That diplomacy could have more than one end...obviously, a ways' to end this conflict peacefully (but judging by Russian responses' so far, has failed.)
He could also be stalling for time, time to shift military assets, call on any favors, etc. This whole situation is going to be...well, at least the first Cuban Missile crisis of the 21st century.
It's hard to predict what will happen in the next few days. Maybe the Russians' will do as they claim, and withdraw back to Ossetia; even though it looks unlikely at this point, There's still a possibility.
Maybe that with all of our other military commitments, and the speed with which this all happened, The President can't consider a military option until the assets' are all in place. My guess is, that any U.S. force shifts' will NOT make it on the news, until their arrival in Georgia is imminent. Even the Rapid Deployment force takes' something like 48 hours' from first notification to boots-on-the-ground, and they won't be able to fly anything in until the sky is clear. I don't know if the Navy's willing to risk a Carrier group in the Black sea, Even if the Turks' let it pass, so Air superiority/support might have to come from the USAF's closest fields' to the theatre in question.
Look, there's one more thing I'd like to bring up, and it's partly conjecture. Bush was talking about building a 'missile shield' in Europe. Ok. If he's seriously talking about it, then that means' that the technology for it has to be existant. If that's the case, then is it too much to assume, that possibly there are some elements' of a missile shield in place here in the U.S.? Possibly enough to court the possibility of waging a N-war? Like I said, this is quite a bit of conjecture.
As for simply letting the Russians' overrun Georgia...An American ally, that's helped us in Iraq (discipline reports' nonwithstanding) and with the added chip of securing the BC pipelines, I just don't see the U.S. letting it happen.
Not to mention, China would most likely get involved after a time, as well as other Russian Allies..
I would believe that if this was the case, then we'd see a ton of rhetoric from all of the Russian Allies, starting right now in an attempt to legitimize Russia's position. All that's come out of Beijing has been Crickets, and I don't think that's been because of any Oriental tradition of politeness, even due to the Olympics. First of all, even though they are communists, perhaps the most diehard of them outside of the pre-glasnost USSR, they have never had the best of relations' with the russians, as seen by several border clashes' in Mongolia-Siberia. Plus, China is making a pretty penny off of U.S. trade and manufacturing. As a matter of fact, it's because of this that they have risen to become a major world power. I do not think that they will wreck that over a matter such as Georgia. Especially when you consider, that if the Russians' shut off the pipelines, It will affect worldwide oil prices, because now the existing supply in the Middle east is going to have to be traded in Europe, too, and that will be splitting less oil with more countries'.
I believe that pipeline is going to do an awful lot of influencing in diplomatic relations' over the coming days...
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From Iraq where most guys are into there 3rd and 4th tours and just want to sweet go home?? Moral is low, my friend....
Every person I know who's military is terrified of being deployed there..
A buddy of mine is a seabee (USNR) who got back about six months ago. He looked forward to going. The only reason he doesn't want to go back is that he takes a financial hit. His pay grade in the private sector is much better than military pay, and he has a wife and 5 kids to feed.
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lala, lala , lala, Octavius shooting blanks.................
you are mistaken my friend, i don't do shade on AHBB, neither anywhere else
LoL
I was gonna say....Who the hell is Ramzey?
Nice to meet ya...
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See Rules #4, #5
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You can dress up an evil empire in frilly clothes and its still, and always will be, an evil empire. Pragmatism dictates we treat the Russian government as civilized, but it would be stupid to actually believe it.
I would better see a world dominated by United States , not Russia or some Islamic Regime, but i think it's impossible.
There's only one empire in the world , and that's not Russia:....Russia doesn't build military bases in the US backyard.
I wonder what's going to accomplish U.S Government beside huge national debt, and budget deficit with this monstrous military spending,new military bases all around the world and in ex soviet states? Fight Al-Quaida? Control and secure oil reserve? Novo Ordo Seclorum?
It's a dangerous game of world domination, and ordinary citizens got nothing to win from it: maybe a draft letter in your mail box.
(http://www.armscontrolcenter.org/policy/securityspending/articles/us_vs_world.gif)
(http://antiisgood.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/us-spending-1998-2008.png)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/6/6a/20080419142612!US_military_bases_in_the_world_2007.PNG)
(http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/intervention/2003/0710imperialmap.jpg)
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War with Russia would break the USA.
The last 20+ years of military action in the Middle East has brought them to the brink of bankruptcy.
As soon as the USA pulls their troops out of the Middle East to support a war with Russia the Middle East will explode. Every dollar spent and every bit of ground fought for over there will be forfeited for naught.
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Interesting times indeed when Dowding, and I completely agree with Hangtime...
If I was GW I'd be on the phone to Putin telling him in 48 hours F-22's, F-15's, and AWACS will be operating over Georgia with freshly painted Georgian Airforce markings, flown by "volunteer" pilots with fresh Georgian passports all paid for by a new "lend lease agreement" splashing every Russki bird that ventures south until they withdraw.
Tronsky
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Interesting times indeed when Dowding, and I completely agree with Hangtime...
If I was GW I'd be on the phone to Putin telling him in 48 hours F-22's, F-15's, and AWACS will be operating over Georgia with freshly painted Georgian Airforce markings, flown by "volunteer" pilots with fresh Georgian passports all paid for by a new "lend lease agreement" splashing every Russki bird that ventures south until they withdraw.
Tronsky
Just don't tell Putin, let it be a surprise. When he pops a vein over aircraft losses to American built fighters.....tell him then that all those planes are flown by volunteers, just like the MiGs over MiG Alley in Korea.
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I seriously doubt that the TOPOL-M missile is some sort of super weapon. It's not uncommon at all for military hardware to either not live up to it's hype, or to be over hyped intentionally for the benefit of potential enemies. The MiG-25 comes to mind......
Surviving a Nuclear blast? Something about that makes me think bullpucky.
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Anodizer you're missing a sizeable part of the context when you tell Hangtime he's patronizing...
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Here's the latest:
5 minutes ago
MOSCOW - Russian news reports are quoting President Dmitri Medvedev ordering a halt to Russian military action in Georgia.
ADVERTISEMENT
Medvedev says in a statement carried by Russian news agencies that the Russian action has punished Georgia and restored security for civilians and Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia. At the same time he ordered the military Tuesday to quell any Georgian armed resistance that appears.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080812/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080812/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia)
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(http://gfx.aftonbladet.se/multimedia/archive/00706/medvedev_706205w.jpg)
Did Medved just torpedo Putin in the bow? i mean Medved comes out like a frigging hero while Putin looks like Satan himself.
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^ the monkey upstaging the organ grinder? nah.. putin's to much of a megolamanic to let that happen
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Heh, this is like 1990-1995, only in 5 days and i can watch it on tv live.
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Mr Bush did undermine some of the power of his words by accidentally referring at one point to an attempt to overthrow the government of Russia, rather than Georgia
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7555806.stm
freudian slip?
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Anodizer, you keep harping on "low morale". I don't know a single member of the military that suffers from it. And I know a fairly large number of them. They ALL want to go home. But they all want to finish the job. They're just like anyone else away from home doing a job. They want to finish the job and go home. Their morale is not so low as you try to proclaim. Re-enlistment is up, as well as enlistment.
By the way, the way this operation would be done, if it were to be done, would be the way it has been planned for decades. It would NOT be an armor v. armor battle, nor an infantry v. infantry battle, nor a combination. Air superiority would be established quickly, and the A-10's, helicopters, and other attack aircraft would be sent in to deal with the armor. Then, for the most part, the naked infantry would retreat on its own.
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Much to do about nothing.
Russia trying to grandstand , but only has a park bench audience.
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Gen Patton was right.
" we will have to fight the Russians sooner or later, we should do it now wile we have our army in Europe"
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Funny video: Saakashvili runs during the interview.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6TGuet8hlk
0:18 - somebody dropped a pistol :)
0:27 - did he crap his pants ? :rofl
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see them look up there were aircraft over head thay thought that bombs might be coming down....
Funny video: Saakashvili runs during the interview.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6TGuet8hlk
0:18 - somebody dropped a pistol :)
0:27 - did he crap his pants ? :rofl
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Funny video: Saakashvili runs during the interview.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6TGuet8hlk
0:18 - somebody dropped a pistol :)
0:27 - did he crap his pants ? :rofl
Be on the receiving end of cannon, rocket, and mortar artillery, plus sporadic air bombardment.
See how funny it is to you then.
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Gen Patton was right.
" we will have to fight the Russians sooner or later, we should do it now wile we have our army in Europe"
...
C'mon, you can't pacify Afghanistan, stuck in Iraq, you seriously mean you can afford a conflict with Russia?!
I am seriously surprised by Western reaction. I see thinking people here, nevertheless you guys sound like you are insane.
Georgians, with US military instructors, were shooting MLRS at a populated city. Creatures who do such things should get caught and shot like mad dogs.
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Be on the receiving end of cannon, rocket, and mortar artillery, plus sporadic air bombardment.
See how funny it is to you then.
When he ordered to bomb Tshinvali - did he think how funny is it to be on the receiving end? What goes around comes around.
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I was listening to the Georgian president last night in an interview with BBC world news. He made an interesting point. Russia is claiming Georgia fired the first shot, but how is it that Russia was able to mobilize that large of a fighting force and be already in Georgia in a matter of hours. If you know anything about warfare and logistics you would know this just is not possible. It seems to me Russia wanted a fight so it made one.
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Georgians, with US military instructors, were shooting MLRS at a populated city. Creatures who do such things should get caught and shot like mad dogs.
Theres many Russians (creatures) that should be caught and shot then.
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Be on the receiving end of cannon, rocket, and mortar artillery, plus sporadic air bombardment.
See how funny it is to you then.
My dear distant friend!
Do you hear air raid sirens tested sometimes? I did. Almost crapped my pants.
Your problem is that you have never been on above-mentioned receiving end.
Vermin leaders should get caught and punished for military crimes.
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Theres many Russians (creatures) that should be caught and shot then.
I kindly ask you to elaborate, please.
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My dear distant friend!
Do you hear air raid sirens tested sometimes? I did. Almost crapped my pants.
Your problem is that you have never been on above-mentioned receiving end.
Vermin leaders should get caught and punished for military crimes.
I haven't. I have friends that have been under mortar & rocket fire. I've only been shot at (it sucks). That's why I don't laugh at either side.
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I kindly ask you to elaborate, please.
The artillery barrage – the first against Gori since the five-day conflict began – suggested that, despite denials in Moscow, Russian ground troops had advanced into undisputed Georgian territory from South Ossetia. Gori, a town of about 70,000 people that was the birth place of Stalin, lies 15 miles south of Georgia's internal border with the breakaway region.
A Dutch journalist was killed and another wounded after a fragmentation shell exploded outside a press centre where western reporters in Gori, including reporters for The Daily Telegraph, have based themselves since the conflict began.
Sounds like neither side particularly gives a crap about civilian deaths.
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Georgians, with US military instructors, were shooting MLRS at a populated city. Creatures who do such things should get caught and shot like mad dogs.
Ever hear that story about all those Polish Officers that just 'disappeared' during WW2? During the Cold War, people just disappeared, anyone who had anything to do with the Soviet Union should be shot. Chernobyl, when the people were told something was wrong 3 DAYS after the re-actor exploded.
So you can pull out that card with them shooting at a populate city, but 'Russia' has done far worse things.
Wasn't Putin in the NKVD? I'm sure plenty of people 'disappeared' with the help of him.
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I kindly ask you to elaborate, please.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes
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I kindly ask you to elaborate, please.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v673/kavkaz5/grozny1.jpg)
(http://cobb.typepad.com/cobb/images/2007/11/28/grozny2600d_belyakov.jpg)
Yup. Vermin. Your vermin did this. Say hello to Grozny. Location, 154 miles north east of Georgia. I'd say the Georgians don't like you much. I'd say they had damn good reason.
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Ever hear that story about all those Polish Officers that just 'disappeared' during WW2? During the Cold War, people just disappeared, anyone who had anything to do with the Soviet Union should be shot. Chernobyl, when the people were told something was wrong 3 DAYS after the re-actor exploded.
So you can pull out that card with them shooting at a populate city, but 'Russia' has done far worse things.
Wasn't Putin in the NKVD? I'm sure plenty of people 'disappeared' with the help of him.
Chernobyl was reported immediately, don't repeat propaganda lies please.
There is no NKVD since maybe 1950.
Far worse things?! Worse then killing millions of civilians in South-East Asia?
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Chernobyl was reported immediately, don't repeat propaganda lies please.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!
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Yup. Vermin. Your vermin did this. Say hello to Grozny. Location, 154 miles north east of Georgia. I'd say the Georgians don't like you much. I'd say they had damn good reason.
Grozny was a legitimate military target.
You guys feed terrorists who wanted to kill me. ME. Personally. It could be MY house blown up in Moscow.
Funny to hear such accusations from a country that raped Yugoslavia and still occupies Iraq.
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Chernobyl was reported immediately, don't repeat propaganda lies please.
There is no NKVD since maybe 1950.
Far worse things?! Worse then killing millions of civilians in South-East Asia?
Lets see, Soviet Media DIDN'T release anything till 3 DAYS after the reactor exploded. The Americans new about the reactor exploding before you guys even did.
(http://www.unit5.org/christjs/chernobyl.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Pripyat-today.jpg)
Take a look at what happened. People are still dying. If the Soviets had warned them the MORNING it happened, thousands of lives could have been saved. Now, theres over 3,000 villages and houses abandoned, Belarus is pretty much destroyed, and people are still dying and getting sick from it TODAY.
Dont forget the Aral Sea Disaster.
In the years before WW2, Stalin killed MILLIONS of people.
People dont just disappear, something DOES happen to them.
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The Americans new about the reactor exploding before you guys even did.
It was actually the Finns who first picked up something was amiss, IIRC.
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Lets see, Soviet Media DIDN'T release anything till 3 DAYS after the reactor exploded. The Americans new about the reactor exploding before you guys even did.
(http://www.unit5.org/christjs/chernobyl.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Pripyat-today.jpg)
Take a look at what happened. People are still dying. If the Soviets had warned them the MORNING it happened, thousands of lives could have been saved. Now, theres over 3,000 villages and houses abandoned, Belarus is pretty much destroyed, and people are still dying and getting sick from it TODAY.
Dont forget the Aral Sea Disaster.
In the years before WW2, Stalin killed MILLIONS of people.
People dont just disappear, something DOES happen to them.
Don't teach yer Father how to diddly. I have been here and believe me, i know better.
There were 700,000 people executed here in 21-56. Just as much as in ""democratic" US of A.
Are we talking about Osetia or about Stalin? BTW, Stalin was born in Gori, some people say he was an Osetin....
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Grozny was a legitimate military target.
You guys feed terrorists who wanted to kill me. ME. Personally. It could be MY house blown up in Moscow.
Funny to hear such accusations from a country that raped Yugoslavia and still occupies Iraq.
Funny you should mention rape... every place your vermin kind goes, the people are raped. Literally. Poland. Bulgaria. Yugoslavia. Hungary. Germany. Give me your address in Moscow. I'll pass it along to the survivors of the Grozny Massacre and let them know you remain unconvinced of their suffering.
Commie Vermin Scum. :)
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Would you kindly give me any source of the USA executing 700.000 people in that period Boroda!
Man,you are so full of......what is brown and sounds like a bell.
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Chernobyl was reported immediately, don't repeat propaganda lies please.
There is no NKVD since maybe 1950.
Far worse things?! Worse then killing millions of civilians in South-East Asia?
Don't know how old you were at the time,but it wasn't as far as I know.
I remember the rumours denied by the USSR, then the news being manifested by western scientists then media, and then finally confessed by the USSR.
I actually remember what I was doing at the time when it was first broadcasted, and our worries due to knowing nothing of how big it was, where it was heading etc etc etc.
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Give me your address in Moscow. I'll pass it along to the survivors of the Grozny Massacre and let them know you remain unconvinced of their suffering.
Commie Vermin Scum. :)
Check this forum archives, I have given you my street address before. I can repeat: Russian Federation, Moscow, 125195, Leningradskoe shosse, 98-1-70. Phone number: +7 495 979 6453
Ring three times, I still have some good brandy that won't last long.
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Don't teach yer Father how to mask. I have been here and believe me, i know better.
There were 700,000 people executed here in 21-56. Just as much as in ""democratic" US of A.
Are we talking about Osetia or about Stalin? BTW, Stalin was born in Gori, some people say he was an Osetin....
700,000? Crap, that just covers the German POW"s. How about the 2 million white russians?
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Check this forum archives, I have given you my street address before. I can repeat: Russian Federation, Moscow, 125195, Leningradskoe shosse, 98-1-70. Phone number: +7 495 979 6453
Ring three times, I still have some good brandy that won't last long.
Thanks! I'll do that. ;)
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700,000? Crap, that just covers the German POW"s. How about the 2 million white russians?
White Russians? You mean Bielorussia?
Hurry up, only 150ml of brandy left :) Or bring your own drinks ;)
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So why is Russia invading this Georgia country and what do you see the U.S.A doing in response to a threat on a democratic nation. I have heard many people saying this a really bad and a war can come from this, if so I guess going into the Army right now isnt the smartest moveon my part :confused:
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There is a really long thread here about it. Full of opinions and facts of various quality.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,243480.0.html
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Beats me, we can't world police everything ! maybe the EU will take care of it ?
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Should it happen that the US and CCCP would go to war, i might sign up for the US side.
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Beats me, we can't world police everything ! maybe the EU will take care of it ?
Dang Yenny, you're hilarious! :rofl
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Russia was defending it's oil interests, much the same way we defend ours. No war, go ahead join the army, it'll do you good.
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Russia was defending it's oil interests, much the same way we defend ours. No war, go ahead join the army, it'll do you good.
We are protecting our citizens. Quite different from what Americans do in Iraq.
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We are protecting our citizens. Quite different from what Americans do in Iraq.
we forgot to give them passports....
:uhoh
We'll remember next time...
:noid
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we forgot to give them passports....
:uhoh
We'll remember next time...
:noid
C'mon.
Looks like you guys are too afraid that they'll breath your "air of freedom". Go watch Kin-Dza-Dza.
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White Russians? You mean Bielorussia?
Hurry up, only 150ml of brandy left :) Or bring your own drinks ;)
I've got a couple of old Heinleins I've been holding for you.. any booze you like I can get here for yah?
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C'mon.
Looks like you guys are too afraid that they'll breath your "air of freedom". Go watch Kin-Dza-Dza.
[/quote/]
Russians cant talk about letting people enter their country since we do have the most illegal immigrants and we tolerate them. I can go down to Baltimore city and pay some mexicans 50 bucks to put up a new deck. You cant truly believe we are evil or else your brain washed.
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LOL.. hey Boroda...
How's life in a tractor factory these days? Hey, you guys get BBC or CNN World? I mean, just in case you'd like to see the surrender monkey view on the situation...
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See Rules #4, #5
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What.. I'm supposed to do your homework? Instead of turning to the Pacific when we were heinously attacked; we abandoned a 125,000 men in the Phillipines. we endured the horrific defeat of Corregidor and Bataan so we could send everything we had at the time.. which wasn't much.. to the Brits. That was a hard, hard move. men who had no idea why they were abandoned paid with their lives for England and the eventual liberation of Europe.
You said we entered WWII because the Brits had their backs up against the wall. This is wrong. We entered WWII because we were attacked at Pearl Harbor. You can't change historical fact.
You keep sayin that.. I've lived through times that disprove it. You reject history a half breath after trying to club me with it?
Ok, is it possible for you to learn how to use this forum and quote what is said before answering it, or at least changing the text color of your answer next to what I said? I guess not... Go figure...
Horsepucky. History, again. Cold War. you thick?
See above
Thats histrionics.. we don't teach that anymore because a 12 year old educated here already knows you can't survive a nuclear attack. Of course, since you've been taught since you were in the sandbox we can't win, obviously, in your opinion; we can't win.
**sigh** Again, please try to use some quote here so I know what the hell you're talking about.. I respectfully did it for you... I expect the same in return.... Never heard of "histrionics". Some made up term having to do with the poor education system in this country, no doubt.
The essence of the American use of MAD. Again; History, kid.
Don't flatter yourself with simple history... Everyone knows what MAD is... You make it sound as if know one knows what you're talking about.... Russian doctrine is not the same as the U.S. I said that in my last post.... Read it in case you forgot...
Ballistic Missile Submarines. Your next assignment, the Triad. Read up on it. More History. Meanwhile, try not to pee yerself with the scary russian propaganda
Yes, yes... I knew we'd come to this.
If you you think military information from the U.S.'s own sources is Russian propaganda, you're ignorant of many things.
I've read up and continue to read on the Triad missile defense system.. The Triad system is NOT DESIGNED to handle a massive onslaught of MIRVs. It's designed to handle something that a 3rd world country could possibly lob over. How about YOU read up on your information, sir.
Nope. If they do; they cease to exist. MAD yet?
Well, now that you mention it.. you seem to have it all worked out. Surrender. Since it's your earth to inherit after I'm gone, you'll won't mind too much if you wait to give it all up till after I'm dead? Meanwhile, I'd take it as a kindness if you and a few million other products of the modern american pussificated education system try not to get bent outta shape when I call yah a buncha freakin whiner surrender monkeys.
Why do you assume I am proposing surrender? Again, you put words into my mouth. You really have no clue. As I said, there are other avenues to take which would not escalate this to something worse.. You want a war? Fine.... Go play paintball or laser tag to get your fix. Plain and simple, you are obviously looking for some sort of confrontation and are unable to speak of this in a logical sense without using idiotic comments and baseless assumptions. You seem to enjoy putting words into other's mouths in order to make your position seem righteous or whatever you'd like to call it. Kind of reminds me of that guy from Mars Attacks..."KILL KILL KILL..." Pretty funny actually.
You obviously know me not at all... bub; I'm for getting this country into full swing, WWII production style, and have been since the first tower hit the street in my city. Not one of our troops should be serving overseas without every gawdamned fat assed citizen doing every thing in his power to help him succeed. I'm more than willing to join america in that commitment... how 'bout you?
Get this country in to full swing WWII production style for what? To bleed it dry of its reserve resources? What do you propose to do?? Get the rest of the world to hate the U.S. even more than it already does???? Do you have any idea how that will affect this country economically? You think this country is self-sustaining? This country does not have the infrastructure or resources to meet those WWII standards... You are dreaming and being completely unrealistic. I believe your blind infatuation as well as your emotions are what dictate your reasoning.
[/quote]
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[/quote/]
Russians cant talk about letting people enter their country since we do have the most illegal immigrants and we tolerate them. I can go down to Baltimore city and pay some mexicans 50 bucks to put up a new deck. You cant truly believe we are evil or else your brain washed.
[/quote]
We have a million Georgians here in MSK. Out of 10 million official population.
Your turn.
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They got passports too?
<snicker>
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There were 700,000 people executed here in 21-56. Just as much as in ""democratic" US of A.
More fabrications from Boroda. :rofl
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Check this forum archives, I have given you my street address before. I can repeat: Russian Federation, Moscow, 125195, Leningradskoe shosse, 98-1-70. Phone number: +7 495 979 6453
Ring three times, I still have some good brandy that won't last long.
You'll need that. If you're still awake ;)
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Rich pretty much laid it out. That Putin is one sharp dude compared to the neo-clod we currently have in the white house. I can't see Obam outmanuvering him, though he will liklley have that strong, Crook County devious streak to draw upon. Don't know about McCain.
And Saakaschwili is a moron. You'd almost think he's a Putin plant given how poorly he handled this.
Charon
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Putin:
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z144/croduh/1217539016559.jpg)
Makes every other president/PM look like a joke.
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Putin:
Makes every other president/PM look like a joke.
Looks tough... until they have to break out the stepping stool for him to reach the microphone.
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Putin:
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z144/croduh/1217539016559.jpg)
Makes every other president/PM look like a joke.
hmmmm
(http://livingromcom.typepad.com/my_weblog/images/agent_smith_poses04.jpg)
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Putin tough? If he'd been really tough, he wouldn't have caved in to Cease-fire demands, and overrun all of Georgia when he had the chance.
It's sad to say, but with this cease-fire, He might have actually been outmanuevered by George Bush, which would be a sad thing indeed.
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See Rule #5
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hmmmm
(http://livingromcom.typepad.com/my_weblog/images/agent_smith_poses04.jpg)
:rofl :rofl
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See Rule #2
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Ok Internet tough guys, the next one to through out a threat to another member of this community will get an instant ban. Yes, that could be construed as a kick in the nads. I really do not care.
We will not tolerate it.
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I guess Boroda is going to tell us that the mighty Russian Army beat the Taliban instead of running away from them.
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more russian spewed b.s.
That high horse your on...gonna make for a big thud when ya fall off.
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Somehow I don't think we have seen the end of hostilities yet. The russkies were still bombing Georgia as Medvedev was giving his press conference about ending military operations - and they still haven't withdrawn from within Georgia proper according to the BBC.
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For Anodiser;
his·tri·on·ics
n.
1. (used with a pl. verb) Theatrical arts or performances.
2. (used with a sing. or pl. verb) Exaggerated emotional behavior calculated for effect.
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Time to dust off the Tomcats. ;)
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Time to dust off the Tomcats. ;)
Probably, uncrate some new F-22's, to re-equip the georgian's. Or, maybe F-16's.
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I have to appologize for not sifting through all of the "neener-neener" comments, but did anyone actually discuss the fact that the U.S. advisory role that exists in Georgia is basically an anti-terrorism training capability? Our guys aren't there trying to re-equip and train the Georgians in full-scale, conventional warfare against the Russians. Sometimes, as hard as it is to believe, we do have small-scale aspirations in some countries...
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I mentioned the chart with US bases before, they have my little country on the base list, while there are absolutely no US troops here for years.
There is an "open shop" for training, as well as the facilities for quick reaction for trouble, no matter if it's the RAF, the Norwegians, the Canadians or the US.
I think that the Russkies pretty well know this about Georgia, and anything implying the US or NATO gently pushing Georgia into the bear's cage is complete rubbish.
The Georgians had their domestic problems right under the bear's paw, and took their chances.
So now, it is for mankind to look back to WWI, and not let one small incident lead to the death of millions.
I'd like to see the Tomcats gathering dust and the SU's gathering rust, while me, Boroda, Dowding etc etc take a beer and shake our heads over the nonsense.
Maybe that's just me, but this opinion is definately not going to be the death of this thread.
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Rich pretty much laid it out. That Putin is one sharp dude compared to the neo-clod we currently have in the white house. I can't see Obam outmanuvering him, though he will liklley have that strong, Crook County devious streak to draw upon. Don't know about McCain.
And Saakaschwili is a moron. You'd almost think he's a Putin plant given how poorly he handled this.
Charon
Putin doesnt have internal politics or public opinion that he has to worry about. He doesnt have a congress he has to answer to. He doesnt have allies he has to cater to. You can call Bush a neo-clod as much as you want but even that is an expression of personal political opinion that Putin would laugh at if a Russian said it about him. Putin is a Dictator, or as close to one as a sham Democracy can dream up.
Its not Bushs fault we have stupidly convinced ourselves that Putin, or the Russians, are our friends. We did that on our own, or, with the help of our allies. George Bushs leadership has prevented another terror attack on our soil, along with the bravery of our troops, and those of our allies.
"We" are the ones who have to grow up and start looking at the world as realists. This is an old game, with an old enemy, and if NATO doesnt unify and get its act together we might be handing off a real nightmare world to our kids. Its childish to revert to selfish, domestic, political name calling and silly to blame all the worlds ills on George Bush. Bush was right to act unilaterally after 9/11. If he hadnt we'd still be pokeing holes in the air at the UN debating society, "No doubt you'll see a lot of such hot air being blown around concerning Georgia". We simply cant let all our national security decisions be made by popular world vote. You probably notice theres a lot less world condemnation over this brutal attack on pitiful Georgia then there was when we invaded Iraq, despite having 100 x more provocation.
Did Georgia try and kill a former Russian President? Did Georgia violate UN resolutions dozens of times? Did Georgia start two major wars each time invading a neighboring country in surprise attacks? Do you remember the world community screeching when America went after Saddam, an event he could have prevented by simply allowing UN inspectors to do their jobs. And do you hear the thunderous silence now?
This is the hypocritical anti-US world we live in. A world allows China to host the Olympics despite its Government sponsored brutality.
But do call Bush a "Neo-clod". If it makes you feel better then go ahead and let fly.
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Putin tough? If he'd been really tough, he wouldn't have caved in to Cease-fire demands, and overrun all of Georgia when he had the chance.
(http://ir-ingr.livejournal.com/339125.html)
Get it, sign and return.
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"We" are the ones who have to grow up and start looking at the world as realists.
This I'm afraid will NEVER happen.
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..., while me, Boroda, Dowding etc etc take a beer and shake our heads over the nonsense.
Maybe that's just me, but this opinion is definately not going to be the death of this thread.
Yup. Cripes, that miserable old commie Boroda and I have been pummeling each other in here for what seems like forever... and when we're not talking politics we have blast comparing what we have in common. And, one of the things we have in common is a great love for head butting as well as passionate love for our homelands. Neither of us takes each other, or ourselves too seriously during these altercations... and they progress pretty much like they would if we were in each others company sharing a dank bottle of the crap he calls booze served in dirty glasses.
"In russia we have old custom... we troll american BBS with party noise... 'we will bury you', .. much fun to observe western reaction." *burp*"
BTW, an appreciative nod to the miserable commie martyr lackey... heluva a troll this thread was, indeed.
We're anachronisms. Often ludicrous poster-boy caricatures of the systems that formed us as youths... part of the fun; but often bewildering for spectators. When that other guy chimed in with 'you know nothing of the russians, "they will nuke us!", I nearly fell off my chair laughing... and enjoyed immensely crushing the surrender monkey. But hey; I guess my sense of humor and appreciation for the bizarre comes from a frame of reference alien to others.
...and none of this impacts in the slightest my support for the Georgians and my disgust for the russian ploys used to excuse an inexcusable invasion of a neighboring sovereign democratic nation.
<S!>
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See Rule #2
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I disagree Rich46yo. There's been much more condemnation of Russia than the US and Iraq. The free world has condemned Russia - nobody talked about throwing the US & UK out of the G8 as they are doing with russia. I think sometimes Americans are guilty of developing a silo mentality, and like to think the world is against them. I think there is more support than you realize.
Compare and contrast the French response in this for instance - they were willing to fly their president into a war zone to broker a peace deal.
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Compare and contrast the French response in this for instance - they were willing to fly their president into a war zone to broker a peace deal.
I think there are more than a few here who would like to send our prez into a war zone too.
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(http://ir-ingr.livejournal.com/339125.html)
Get it, sign and return.
Alas, you've been stricken by the infamous Intardnet 'red X'.
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I think there are more than a few here who would like to send our prez into a war zone too.
He's already done that. IIRC, he served up turkey for the troops in Baghdad during Thanksgiving...
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I think sometimes Americans are guilty of developing a silo mentality, and like to think the world is against them.
.
We don't like to see the world against us.. we're just jaundiced by guilt. I mean; we must be pretty bad, what; with 30 years of watching american flags and presidents burned in effigy on our TV's...
I think there are more than a few here who would like to send our prez into a war zone too.
Yup.
See.. we're conflicted, sensitive creatures, with the ability to make cockroaches kings of a 'brave new world'
Somebody tell the russians before they get you all incinerated.
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I have to appologize for not sifting through all of the "neener-neener" comments, but did anyone actually discuss the fact that the U.S. advisory role that exists in Georgia is basically an anti-terrorism training capability? Our guys aren't there trying to re-equip and train the Georgians in full-scale, conventional warfare against the Russians. Sometimes, as hard as it is to believe, we do have small-scale aspirations in some countries...
This would explain something, Stoney, and give credance to some of Georgia's claims. If the Russian occupation forces' found the bodies' of American black servicemen, that would be in line with Georgia's original statement that they were simply going after the Ossetians' shelling the Georgian border side. The Americans' would be there to oversee and evaluate the Georgians' on their op. Otherwise, I wouldn't see U.S. advisors' near there, because I doubt they would wish to get involved in regular full-scale warfare.
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Kick Russia out of the G8
Boycott all Russian products
If that doesn't smarten em up, maybe its time to fling a few thermonuclear devices around.
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This would explain something, Stoney, and give credance to some of Georgia's claims. If the Russian occupation forces' found the bodies' of American black servicemen, that would be in line with Georgia's original statement that they were simply going after the Ossetians' shelling the Georgian border side. The Americans' would be there to oversee and evaluate the Georgians' on their op. Otherwise, I wouldn't see U.S. advisors' near there, because I doubt they would wish to get involved in regular full-scale warfare.
Well, I guarantee that the Russian pilots knew exactly where the U.S. Advisors are based, and made doubly sure that the effects of their ordnance had no chance of getting anywhere close to them. Of course, EUCOM had those guys restricted to base some time ago when this looked like it was going downhill.
My point was that the "Major U.S. Ally" moniker has been thrown around quite a bit by the press and some of the posters here. I think that is an exageration, and certainly overstates the DoD's mission in Georgia, which is simply to train the Georgian military in counter-insurgency operations. In this case, specifically, Islamic extremists and pre-deployment training for Iraq, which is not at the heart of this particular matter.
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...maybe its time to fling a few thermonuclear devices around.
You can't be serious...
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You can't be serious...
Maybe he just meant to like....play catch with them and stuff.... :uhoh
:D
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Its not Bushs fault we have stupidly convinced ourselves that Putin, or the Russians, are our friends. We did that on our own, or, with the help of our allies. George Bushs leadership has prevented another terror attack on our soil, along with the bravery of our troops, and those of our allies.
A reminder again, this is George Bush on Putin:
"I looked the man in the eye. I found him to be very straight forward and trustworthy and we had a very good dialogue.
"I was able to get a sense of his soul.
"He's a man deeply committed to his country and the best interests of his country and I appreciate very much the frank dialogue and that's the beginning of a very constructive relationship," Mr Bush said.
LOL. Yeah, Bush is the man of the hour where a reemerging Putin Russia is concerned.
Putin doesnt have internal politics or public opinion that he has to worry about. He doesnt have a congress he has to answer to. He doesnt have allies he has to cater to. You can call Bush a neo-clod as much as you want but even that is an expression of personal political opinion that Putin would laugh at if a Russian said it about him. Putin is a Dictator, or as close to one as a sham Democracy can dream up…
"We" are the ones who have to grow up and start looking at the world as realists. This is an old game, with an old enemy, and if NATO doesnt unify and get its act together we might be handing off a real nightmare world to our kids. Its childish to revert to selfish, domestic, political name calling and silly to blame all the worlds ills on George Bush. Bush was right to act unilaterally after 9/11. If he hadnt we'd still be pokeing holes in the air at the UN debating society, "No doubt you'll see a lot of such hot air being blown around concerning Georgia". We simply cant let all our national security decisions be made by popular world vote. You probably notice theres a lot less world condemnation over this brutal attack on pitiful Georgia then there was when we invaded Iraq, despite having 100 x more provocation.
Did Georgia try and kill a former Russian President? Did Georgia violate UN resolutions dozens of times? Did Georgia start two major wars each time invading a neighboring country in surprise attacks? Do you remember the world community screeching when America went after Saddam, an event he could have prevented by simply allowing UN inspectors to do their jobs. And do you hear the thunderous silence now?
Bush had a free ride on all those areas you cite as not limiting Putin for the first 4 years of his presidency after 911. Congress and the media did little to oppose him. His allies supported him, his not-so-allies weren't powerful to do much against him. The result…
We have hemorrhaged money at home by his approving virtually every domestic pork ladened bill Congress placed in front of him. Continuing the Clinton legacy; virtually no oversight on the financial markets. In Iraq money has been blown with virtually no oversight of where it has gone or accountability. We have used up equipment to the point where recovery will be a serious budget issue in years to come.
For the war itself, the conduct of the post war operations in Iraq have been terribly mismanaged (the whole disbanding the Iraqi Army thing, as one example) even if you agree with the basic PNAC premise of the democracy domino effect (Wolfowitz, Pearl and Fifie, oh my) as leverage against Iran, the Saudis and Syria. Nope, no clod in the White House.
You seem to equate Iraq with Al Queda. Saddam was an butthole, but he was our very useful butthole for many years and after Gulf War I was easily contained. As much as his actions pissed us off he was a regional, Stalinist dictator in an area where our “friends” (Saudi Arabia, Nuclear Pakistan) are borderline stable, passively to actively support islamic terrorism and are one Ayatollah away from being the next Iran.
Now, I may be simple, but when I looked at the region I saw Saddam as an irritation, and the Saudis and Pakistanis and the Iranians under their new clod as the real areas of concern. Guess what, that hasn't changed, though our ability to deal with these real threats (and Islamic hotbeds in Asia, etc.) are diminishing each day. We don't have unlimited resources or unlimited capacity for action, and we have squandered both by eliminating an anti-Islamic Stalinist paper tiger dictator. Making things worse is our inability to comprehend 4th generation warfare in both the foreign and domestic dimensions which endangers any kind of successful exit strategy from Iraq.
We haven't hade another terrorist attack because the Al Qaeda network in the US was largely used up in 911 and hasn't been rebuilt -- yet. That was the opinion of Phillip Zilekow, who directed the 911 Commission. I asked him that specific question in 2005 at a dinner at University of Virginia where he was the guest speaker. He noted that it’s not all that easy to find ideological/suicidal men then train them to operate in a Western country then position them to attack a target. Little parallel to getting a local to strap on a bomb and go for a walk in the market.
What exactly has bush done though to keep the terrorists at bay? The fight them "there vs here" concept is a farce, since the ones we fight there (in Iraq, at least) are not the same ones we will fight here. No border security today (interfere with his support of illegal workers) leaving open the possibility of an infiltration attack through Canada or Mexico. And our ports remain relatively unsecure (expensive technology). We are perhaps starting to focus more on human intel compared to the pentagon industrial complex friendly satellite solutions of the cold war, which is a start, but it certainly has not been a proactive move.
This is the hypocritical anti-US world we live in. A world allows China to host the Olympics despite its Government sponsored brutality.
As for China, I regard them as a military and economic enemy. Always have; nothing has changed. The current Commander-in-Clod, like Klinton before him, doesn't seem to be as concerned. China is "good for business." Don't think that we are not an active part of that "hypocritical world" on China. Our fracking trade deficit dollars are putting their new fleet of Kilo class diesels to sea along with the rest of their military build up for the day they figure they can hold off the US Pacific Fleet long enough to make the hop to Taiwan. Of course, that supposes we would resist the move in the first place given our economic bondage to the PRC.
But do call Bush a "Neo-clod". If it makes you feel better then go ahead and let fly.
I've called bush a neo-clod or equivalent since he naively bought into the PNAC concept that Iraq would remain secular and become our democratic best regional buddy and base of operations once we removed Saddam from power. That was his show, 100 percent, and it illustrated absolutely no cultural understanding of the tribal mentality in the region, conflicting religious and cultural forces and conflicting geopolitical undercurrents that required a Saddam Hussein for the "state" of Iraq to exist in the first place.
You seem to think I'm some generic "bush hater." Unlike you, I see Bush and his Ilk as part of the problem, not as some sort of solution. Bush, Obama, McCain, Clinton… Congress as well -- A broken system. I’m a libertarian-leaning Goldwater style conservative, so calling bush a “neo-clod” while an accurate assessment IMO does not make me feel better. Hard to feel better when the American people support two political façade parties that both are far from my foreign, domestic or fiscal policy views.
Charon
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Putin doesnt have internal politics or public opinion that he has to worry about. He doesnt have a congress he has to answer to. He doesnt have allies he has to cater to. You can call Bush a neo-clod as much as you want but even that is an expression of personal political opinion that Putin would laugh at if a Russian said it about him. Putin is a Dictator, or as close to one as a sham Democracy can dream up.
Inasmuch as what you've said about Putin is true, I would point out that in Russia, He's pretty popular.
Its not Bushs fault we have stupidly convinced ourselves that Putin, or the Russians, are our friends. We did that on our own, or, with the help of our allies. George Bushs leadership has prevented another terror attack on our soil, along with the bravery of our troops, and those of our allies.
We've always extended our hand to our former enemies. Japan, Germany, even letting our businesses' trade in Vietnam. Hell, after WWI we were the country that tried to change the treaty of Versailles so that it wasn't so ruinous to Germany.
And whether or not GWB's actions have prevented another 9/11, or simply given someone, somewhere, incentive to stage something more ruinous, only time will tell.
"We" are the ones who have to grow up and start looking at the world as realists. This is an old game, with an old enemy, and if NATO doesnt unify and get its act together we might be handing off a real nightmare world to our kids. Its childish to revert to selfish, domestic, political name calling and silly to blame all the worlds ills on George Bush. Bush was right to act unilaterally after 9/11. If he hadnt we'd still be pokeing holes in the air at the UN debating society, "No doubt you'll see a lot of such hot air being blown around concerning Georgia". We simply cant let all our national security decisions be made by popular world vote. You probably notice theres a lot less world condemnation over this brutal attack on pitiful Georgia then there was when we invaded Iraq, despite having 100 x more provocation.
We could easily derail this thread if we start in about the right/wrong of Iraq. I would counter this argument right here in this thread by saying that our inaction in Georgia could possibly be because of our middle-eastern mis-adventures. If we had to let Afghanistan and the Taliban slide while we went to Iraq, due to shortages' of men and material, then It's an indicator that we did not have many options' on the table militarily to deal with the Russian's. This whole thing is a result of having too many "sticks in the fire." One could tell that Bush definetely toned his speech on TV differently than he did when discussing going into Iraq, and it was possibly influenced by what he was hearing both from the Joint Chiefs, and our intelligence community. I personally was suprised he came out so softly. I think he was looking at the cards' in his hand, and he didn't like what he saw.
Did Georgia try and kill a former Russian President? Did Georgia violate UN resolutions dozens of times? Did Georgia start two major wars each time invading a neighboring country in surprise attacks? Do you remember the world community screeching when America went after Saddam, an event he could have prevented by simply allowing UN inspectors to do their jobs. And do you hear the thunderous silence now?
Again, we could debate this until it becomes' a full-fledged hijack. You know that for everything you listed, there is a debate on the right/wrong of each one, and that we ourselves' had a hand in some of those happenings.
This is the hypocritical anti-US world we live in. A world allows China to host the Olympics despite its Government sponsored brutality.
But do call Bush a "Neo-clod". If it makes you feel better then go ahead and let fly.
The U.S. does massive amounts of business with China, with a massive trade deficit...Even doing so at the expense of jobs for American workers. I agree with you in this sense, Rich. They are hanging us with our own rope. But I would say the worlds' letting the Chinese have an Olympics not because every other nation is hypocritical, but because it basically has the U.S.A's stamp of approval.
It doesn't make me personally feel any better or worse, but I can think of few things' that more aptly describe our current president.
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You seem to think I'm some generic "bush hater." Unlike you, I see Bush and his Ilk as part of the problem, not as some sort of solution. Bush, Obama, McCain, Clinton… Congress as well -- A broken system. I’m a libertarian-leaning Goldwater style conservative, so calling bush a “neo-clod” while an accurate assessment IMO does not make me feel better. Hard to feel better when the American people support two political façade parties that both are far from my foreign, domestic or fiscal policy views.
Charon
I might be mistaken, Charon, but I believe you might possibly be a Paleoconservative. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleoconservative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleoconservative)
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If you guys' want to see what some russians' (other than Boroda) are saying about this, have a look here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/12/world/europe/12MoscowBureau.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1 (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/12/world/europe/12MoscowBureau.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1)
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You can't be serious...
Actually I was, just to rev up Boroda and his communist boyfriends
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If Putin sees that the West is weak and allows Georgia to be trampled, then he likely will not hesitate to block additional Western efforts to stop Iran's nuclear ambitions.One thing we should pretty much count on is that Moscow right now is casting an eye toward Iran, the most direct route to restoring its influence in Central Asia and Middle East. An Iranian-Russian alliance, would be an Euro- Israeli-American nightmare, and headache for the global economy, Russia sitting on Eurasian oil exports and Iran on the Strait of Hormuz .
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If Putin sees that the West is weak and allows Georgia to be trampled, then he likely will not hesitate to block additional Western efforts to stop Iran's nuclear ambitions.One thing we should pretty much count on is that Moscow right now is casting an eye toward Iran, the most direct route to restoring its influence in Central Asia and Middle East. An Iranian-Russian alliance, would be an Euro- Israeli-American nightmare, and headache for the global economy, Russia sitting on Eurasian oil exports and Iran on the Strait of Hormuz .
Smart man.
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Crap, I don't even remember what I typed. Sorry if anyone took it the wrong way.
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I disagree Rich46yo. There's been much more condemnation of Russia than the US and Iraq. The free world has condemned Russia - nobody talked about throwing the US & UK out of the G8 as they are doing with russia. I think sometimes Americans are guilty of developing a silo mentality, and like to think the world is against them. I think there is more support than you realize.
Compare and contrast the French response in this for instance - they were willing to fly their president into a war zone to broker a peace deal.
We must be watching very different news sources then. Even here there are Europeans commisurating with the Russians.
There, I just read thru the BBC webpage. I dont see any condemnation. The only one Ive seen is from Bush.
"Fly their President into the war zone to broker a peace deal"? You call that condemnation? :lol
We may live in silos but there is somthing about a tyrant beating down a fledgling Democracy that roils our guts. Why else would we have paid so much of the bill for west Europes freedom for decades and sent our sons and daughters there? Course "our" silos are filled with good reasons for the Russians not to attack NATO. So I guess "figuratively" we do live in them.I will only say to this that we have no legal obligation to send troops to defend Georgia. There is no treaty or even an agreement. This Georgian President overplayed his hand and last I checked the place wasnt even in our Hemisphere nor is American security threatened. This is a European problem so if action is to follow then only NATO can do so. Our so called "misadventures" are irrelevant. It has no bearing and anyone advocating unilateral cruise missile Diplomacy should march their kid down to the recruiters and sign them up first. our inaction in Georgia could possibly be because of our middle-eastern mis-adventures.
Anyway, I have to get up early so good night all.
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We may live in silos but there is somthing about a tyrant beating down a fledgling Democracy that roils our guts. Why else would we have paid so much of the bill for west Europes freedom for decades and sent our sons and daughters there? Course "our" silos are filled with good reasons for the Russians not to attack NATO. So I guess "figuratively" we do live in them.I will only say to this that we have no legal obligation to send troops to defend Georgia. There is no treaty or even an agreement. This Georgian President overplayed his hand and last I checked the place wasnt even in our Hemisphere nor is American security threatened. This is a European problem so if action is to follow then only NATO can do so. Our so called "misadventures" are irrelevant. It has no bearing and anyone advocating unilateral cruise missile Diplomacy should march their kid down to the recruiters and sign them up first.
Quote
our inaction in Georgia could possibly be because of our middle-eastern mis-adventures.
Anyway, I have to get up early so good night all.
Then why the comparison of Georgia and Iraq in your previous post? If anything is more under dispute as lying about the WMD's in Iraq to use as an issue to send American troops' there, I don't know what is. Hell, even our ethical reasons' were weak; Whereas, our ethical reasons' for supporting Georgia, who committed 2,000 troops to OUR cause, should be plain as day. By your reasoning, Giving Great Britain support and help during the early days' of WWII was wrong. We didn't have any kind of pact or treaty with the UK prior to the 2nd World war. They were simply our friends' and allies. JUST LIKE THE GEORGIANS.
And you know...even if you consider it a European problem, thus NATO's...We are still a NATO member as well.
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Actually the support to Britain wasn't that much. The USA would not sell weapons to a warring nation. When that was changed, the Germans also technically had an open shop....
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Dude! Wait, what?!?!?!
:rofl. <S> ;)
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Journalists report that Russian tanks are patroling inside Gori.
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Journalists report that Russian tanks are patroling inside Gori.
journalists or georgian officials?
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/13/georgia.russia.war/index.html
"However journalists in Gori said they had seen no Russian tanks."
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:rofl. <S> ;)
Looking at the rule violation I was probably giving some troll a snarky remark. Oh well.
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journalists or georgian officials?
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/13/georgia.russia.war/index.html
"However journalists in Gori said they had seen no Russian tanks."
Journalists, from the AP, but still journalists.
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(http://gfx.aftonbladet.se/multimedia/archive/00707/stridsvagnspuff_707812w.jpg)
Russian troops advancing towards Tiblisi, they are chanting "Tiblisi, Tiblisi!"
Link for Nielsen http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article3090526.ab
– Vi står vägskälet in till Gori. Jag ser 20 till 30 stridsfordon som rullar in i staden, säger Mattias Carlsson på onsdagsförmiddagen.
Han berättar att de ryska soldaterna ser avslappnade ut.
– De sitter ovanpå stridsvagnarna och ser hyfsat avslappnade ut. Om de hade befunnit sig i stridsläge hade de inte suttit ovanpå.
– Nu kommer två till tre stridsfordon till och på vägen in till staden möter de civila bilar.
Translation :
We are standing at crossroads into Gori, I see 20 - 30 Tanks wich are rolling into the city, says Mattias Carlsson (Swedish reporter).
He reports that the Russian soldiers looks relaxed.
- They are sitting ontop of their tanks and looks relaxed. If they had been in combat mode they would not be sitting ontop of the tanks.
- Now 2-3 more tanks are rolling down the road and is encountiring civilian cars.
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Source Maniac?
<edit> can't find independent confirmation on AP or BBC
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Swedish main newspaper. And its their own reporters that are reporting it, no second hand sources. Btw, the Russian troops have robbed a Norwegian Journalist :lol
http://www.aftonbladet.se
The article also says that BOTH sides are dening this. But the articles headlines reads "Aftonbladets" reporters have the first picture proof that the truce is broken.
Heres another Swedish newspaper reporting that 60 Russian tanks are otw from Gori to Tiblisi.
http://www.svd.se/nyheter/utrikes/artikel_1547313.svd
(http://www.svd.se/multimedia/dynamic/00354/georgien_354413c.jpg)
Sky News and AFP is reporting it.
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Nobody is REALLY surprised by this, are they?
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http://english.pravda.ru/topic/georgia_ossetia-603/
fun to read good old Pravda :rofl
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Actually maniac the norwegian journalists were robbed by south ossethian separatists in russian style uniforms
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CNN is reporting it
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/13/georgia.russia.war/index.html
CNN Video with an amazed reporter http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/13/georgia.russia.war/index.html#cnnSTCVideo
He says "We are infront of the troops as they are advancing towards Tiblisi" (Mathew Chase)
Check out the video link and listen to what Mathew is saying if you have ANY doubts.
Also, just turned on CNN on the TV and the first thing i see is "Russian troops on the road between Gori and Tblisi"
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http://english.pravda.ru/topic/georgia_ossetia-603/
fun to read good old Pravda :rofl
That website reads like an "the Onion" article.
(edit: go to their forums. it's HILLARIOUS!)
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Georgian Villages in South Ossetia Burnt, Looted
In South Ossetia, Human Rights Watch researchers traveling on the evening of August 12 on the road from the town of Java to Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, witnessed terrifying scenes of destruction in four villages that used to be populated exclusively by ethnic Georgians. According to the few remaining local residents, South Ossetian militias that were moving along the road looted the Georgian villages and set them on fire. Human Rights Watch saw numerous vehicles carrying South Ossetian militia members, as well as Russian military transports moving in the direction of Tskhinvali.
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/13/georgi19607.htm
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CNN is reporting it
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/13/georgia.russia.war/index.html
CNN Video with an amazed reporter http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/13/georgia.russia.war/index.html#cnnSTCVideo
He says "We are infront of the troops as they are advancing towards Tiblisi" (Mathew Chase)
Check out the video link and listen to what Mathew is saying if you have ANY doubts.
Also, just turned on CNN on the TV and the first thing i see is "Russian troops on the road between Gori and Tblisi"
This was not the case several hours ago when we talked about it. The cnn article i linked to said that the information came from the georigan regime hq and not reporters.
I will however go this far. As i have said from day one of this conflict i am happy and thrilled that Russia kicked the georgian army out of SO as long as they did not go further. I may also have said that i want the georgian president to "go away" ;). I stand by that too. He lost the gamble at the expense of hundreds or maybe over a thousand civilian casualties by his gamble.
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Georgian Villages in South Ossetia Burnt, Looted
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/13/georgi19607.htm
I dont support that but neither does anyone on this bbs. Not even Boroda. Criminals the lot of them
Thank cod Georgia is not part of NATO. Hopefully they will never be members.
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Bush just made a new speach. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7559263.stm
U.S. President Bush pledges support for Georgia, saying reports indicate that Russia is violating cease-fire agreement.
OUTSIDE TBILISI, Georgia (CNN) -- Evidence of the fighting is everywhere in the Georgian city of Gori -- blood on the ground, the smell of smoke in the air, and wrecked cars in the street, according to a CNN crew that drove through the area.
This is a video you should watch imo http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/08/13/cnni.intv.georgia.pres.saakasvhili.cnn
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Bush pledges military aircraft and naval forces for humanitarian aid. Interesting.
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Like I said in a previous post, doesnt Georgia have the most # of Foriegn troops besides the Brits? I was told they do, so I dont think Bush would just ditch them, nor would he to Israel.
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Like I said in a previous post, doesnt Georgia have the most # of Foriegn troops besides the Brits? I was told they do, so I dont think Bush would just ditch them, nor would he to Israel.
They had 2000 trops in Iraq wich the US has helped get back to Georgia since the conlfict began.
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Ah, but still, I doubt that Bush will just let them get taken over by the Russians. Especailly if they sent as many troops into Iraq as they did for such a small country.
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http://english.pravda.ru/topic/georgia_ossetia-603/
fun to read good old Pravda :rofl
Pravda dot ru doesn't have anything to do with Pravda.
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Bush pledges military aircraft and naval forces for humanitarian aid. Interesting.
Indeed it is and Rice is on her way if not already there. Let's just hope Russia is done as they have said.
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Pravda dot ru doesn't have anything to do with Pravda.
Boroda... what in hell has happened in Russia? Is Putin attempting to light eastern europe with the flames of burning villages? Whats going on with your citizens? They back this play?
Holy crap... you guys got either a rouge leader in moscow or a rouge general down there. Hope like hell they knock it off soon; cause this action will force a military confrontation in europe that'll make WWII look like it was a warm-up show. The mood here is one of shock and disgust... this ain't a border skimish now; it's war.
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I have it on good authority, Amy Carter, that nuclear war is bad.
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Not even Boroda.
Are you sure? Boroda keeps calling them vermin. :uhoh
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Whats going on with your citizens? They back this play?
Hang, go read that blog that was posted in the other thread. If the people posting there are representive of the Russian populace as a whole, then I would say yes, they do *back this play.*
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All of the reports' coming out of Georgia look conflicting, but that's because they are compared side-by-side with conflicting claims' from the other side. I just saw this on the Yahoo front pages':http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080813/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia_103;_ylt=AsE827ymc7DdwMNM8_wnKO9bbBAF (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080813/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia_103;_ylt=AsE827ymc7DdwMNM8_wnKO9bbBAF)
Now, if this report is correct, then the Russians' are not honoring the ceasefire, which calls' for them not only to leave Georgia, but South Ossetia, and Abkhazia as well. So far, they have not complied.
It looks' like the Russians' are stalling with diplomacy, to try to keep the west out of it while they steal some land.
They are only making things' worse for themselves.
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reports of irregulars coming in behind russian troops and looting. Not only looting but forcing Georgians out, looting and burning the homes.
Sounds familiar.
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I know Fox News isn't so far removed from American propaganda, but, I did watch a video report from one of their reporters driving in a vehicle out of Gori, passing at least a dozen or so BMP-21's with their associated dismounts, heading into the city. I'm not quite as current on my Russian TO as I used to be, but it looked like a mechanized company strength unit, and they were oscar mike into the city.
The Russian "demilitarization" of the areas south of S.O. is the worrisome part. That's a pretty open-ended mission by any definition. I'm not partial to stirring up a hornets nest, but I think we need to draw a hard line here. Too much at stake to allow the Russians to run wherever they want without due regard to their former territories sovereignty. Shame we allowed them the freedom of action back in the 90's to set up these puppet territories in those two provinces to begin with. But, we set some fairly duplicative precedent with Kosovo, so this is probably their version of "tit-for-tat".
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I know Fox News isn't so far removed from American propaganda, but, I did watch a video report from one of their reporters driving in a vehicle out of Gori, passing at least a dozen or so BMP-21's with their associated dismounts, heading into the city. I'm not quite as current on my Russian TO as I used to be, but it looked like a mechanized company strength unit, and they were oscar mike into the city.
The Russian "demilitarization" of the areas south of S.O. is the worrisome part. That's a pretty open-ended mission by any definition. I'm not partial to stirring up a hornets nest, but I think we need to draw a hard line here. Too much at stake to allow the Russians to run wherever they want without due regard to their former territories sovereignty. Shame we allowed them the freedom of action back in the 90's to set up these puppet territories in those two provinces to begin with. But, we set some fairly duplicative precedent with Kosovo, so this is probably their version of "tit-for-tat".
That's probably true, Stoney, but IMHO they've waited too long. Georgian territory is now Georgian territory; The Russians' weren't asked in by the government of that country to help settle the problems in Ossetia, Abkhazia, or anywhere. Neither did the U.N. This is a more naked and baldfaced aggression on Russia's part.
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IF the goal of Russia is ONLY to free South Osetia from Georgia, then WHY are they in the port city of Georgia destroying Georgia's Coast Guard boats? Other than open aggression and punitive actions by Russia, no other reasons exist. I've looked at the links provided by some here, but I see nothing other than Russia attempting to reassert their dominance of the region by force.
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That's probably true, Stoney, but IMHO they've waited too long. Georgian territory is now Georgian territory; The Russians' weren't asked in by the government of that country to help settle the problems in Ossetia, Abkhazia, or anywhere. Neither did the U.N. This is a more naked and baldfaced aggression on Russia's part.
Somewhat...but there's a whole lot of context in this situation that we don't understand on the surface. I don't know enough about the racial/ethnic/religious makeup of those two territories to know what the underlying motivation is. The fact that Russian "peacekeepers" have been in those two territories for 10 years or so, and the fact that the Russians passed out passports to those territories make this a fairly sticky situation, especially since we did nothing back when all this developed originally.
Does anyone know anything about the navigability of the Black Sea? For example, what type of freedom of action would USN CVBG's and ESG's have off the coast of Georgia? Looking at the ranges overland, a strong USN presence could have a decisive impact merely through their presence, if they're not pigeon-holed by the hydrology of the Black Sea.
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IF the goal of Russia is ONLY to free South Osetia from Georgia, then WHY are they in the port city of Georgia destroying Georgia's Coast Guard boats? Other than open aggression and punitive actions by Russia, no other reasons exist. I've looked at the links provided by some here, but I see nothing other than Russia attempting to reassert their dominance of the region by force.
Well, south of Georgia is Turkey, which, when it comes to the Russians, is extremely pro-U.S., and of course, a NATO member. Obviously we've got some freedom of action there, not to mention access to many airfields and bases in Iraq (ironically) from which to maintain some vigilance. There's some fairly compressed geography in this region that will allow us to keep what's left of Georgia's sovereignty in tact. Long-term, I have no idea. Short term, we have a lot of options.
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https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gg.html
If anyone's looking for some good resources to understand the context behind all of this...
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Well, south of Georgia is Turkey, which, when it comes to the Russians, is extremely pro-U.S., and of course, a NATO member. Obviously we've got some freedom of action there, not to mention access to many airfields and bases in Iraq (ironically) from which to maintain some vigilance. There's some fairly compressed geography in this region that will allow us to keep what's left of Georgia's sovereignty in tact. Long-term, I have no idea. Short term, we have a lot of options.
Stoney, the Black Sea has a tonnage limit by treaty for 'foreign warships'.. as far as I recall we can legally station a sail rigged 42 gun frigate for 15 days. See Montreux Convention.
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Bush pledges military aircraft and naval forces for humanitarian aid. Interesting.
Nothing new. Humanitarian bombings again.
Should I watch for re-entry trails here in Moscow?....
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Are you sure? Boroda keeps calling them vermin. :uhoh
Gruzin = Georgian
Grizun = vermin
Word play in Russian.
People shooting at populated cities should be punished regardless on the side they're on.
Air raid sirens are in my genes, so it goes.
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I know Fox News isn't so far removed from American propaganda, but, I did watch a video report from one of their reporters driving in a vehicle out of Gori, passing at least a dozen or so BMP-21's with their associated dismounts, heading into the city. I'm not quite as current on my Russian TO as I used to be, but it looked like a mechanized company strength unit, and they were oscar mike into the city.
The Russian "demilitarization" of the areas south of S.O. is the worrisome part. That's a pretty open-ended mission by any definition. I'm not partial to stirring up a hornets nest, but I think we need to draw a hard line here. Too much at stake to allow the Russians to run wherever they want without due regard to their former territories sovereignty. Shame we allowed them the freedom of action back in the 90's to set up these puppet territories in those two provinces to begin with. But, we set some fairly duplicative precedent with Kosovo, so this is probably their version of "tit-for-tat".
Are YOU ready to see re-entry trails in the sky?
Don't mess up with Russians. Please.
Next time there will be no "please".
All we want is to be left alone.
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I'd sure as hell be worried about the reaction of a lame duck US President with a history of crushing responses to what he may consider to be a hostile act against a sovereign nation under his personal protection.
I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the white house today.
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I'd sure as hell be worried about the reaction of a lame duck US President with a history of crushing responses to what he may consider to be a hostile act against a sovereign nation under his personal protection.
I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the white house today.
Atleast he'd be doing something about it unlike lets say... John Kerry would... :rolleyes:
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Are YOU ready to see re-entry trails in the sky?
Don't mess up with Russians. Please.
Next time there will be no "please".
All we want is to be left alone.
All you want is to be left alone? I guess that explains why Russian troops are in Georgia now. :uhoh
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Are YOU ready to see re-entry trails in the sky?
Don't mess up with Russians. Please.
Next time there will be no "please".
All we want is to be left alone.
1. Yup.
2. We didn't.. but we're not gonna let the Georgians fall to russian imperial policy
3. When has Russia said 'please'?
4. Get outta Georgia, we'll be glad to leave yah alone
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Are YOU ready to see re-entry trails in the sky?
Its a shame that you limit your postings to simply flame-baiting and trolling. Given your unique perspective and rapt attention to posts on these matters, you could probably be a huge educational resource to those of us outside of your nation.
And, just between us, I don't fear the thought of re-entry trails over the U.S. or your nation--neither country is so stupid as to let this go that far, even if we did trade conventional blows.
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Georgia beat Russia in volleyball
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/olympics/volleyball/7558304.stm
:D
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Georgia beat Russia in volleyball
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/olympics/volleyball/7558304.stm
:D
:lol
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And, just between us, I don't fear the thought of re-entry trails over the U.S. or your nation--neither country is so stupid as to let this go that far, even if we did trade conventional blows.
Exactly Stoney. :)
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Link in Russian: http://rian.ru/osetia_news/20080813/150351697.html
Turkish Prime-Minister said he wants to "express solidarity" with Russia on S.O.
Farewell NATO?...
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Georgia beat Russia in volleyball
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/olympics/volleyball/7558304.stm
:D
Oh, crap; another escalation. Have the georgians apologized for their victory yet?
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Link in Russian: http://rian.ru/osetia_news/20080813/150351697.html
Turkish Prime-Minister said he wants to "express solidarity" with Russia on S.O.
Farewell NATO?...
Farewell Turkey??
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Its a shame that you limit your postings to simply flame-baiting and trolling. Given your unique perspective and rapt attention to posts on these matters, you could probably be a huge educational resource to those of us outside of your nation.
And, just between us, I don't fear the thought of re-entry trails over the U.S. or your nation--neither country is so stupid as to let this go that far, even if we did trade conventional blows.
Look at the first page of this thread.
We didn't start it.
We are going to play to the very end.
So it goes.
Your regime protects rabid dogs. You have "democracy" and have to respond for the people you elected.
We are sick of it.
War is a worst possible solution to anything. We didn't want it, while you supported above-mentioned rabid dogs.
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Link in Russian: http://rian.ru/osetia_news/20080813/150351697.html
Turkish Prime-Minister said he wants to "express solidarity" with Russia on S.O.
Farewell NATO?...
I clicked the ENG tab to read it in English....only thing is.....there was nothing about Turkey on that whole page.
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Look at the first page of this thread.
We didn't start it.
We are going to play to the very end.
So it goes.
Your regime protects rabid dogs. You have "democracy" and have to respond for the people you elected.
We are sick of it.
War is a worst possible solution to anything. We didn't want it, while you supported above-mentioned rabid dogs.
Sad, really... we had a great hope for a free; democratic russia joining the rest of the world..
It would seem that's just not possible.
Expect to see your nation isolated, distrusted, reviled once again. This will cost a great deal in lives, resources, and paints a picture of a future europe, once again armed to the hilt and determined to resist russian soviet/imperial policies, foreign and domestic.
Dumb move on your imperial leaders part.
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Look at the first page of this thread.
We didn't start it.
We are going to play to the very end.
So it goes.
Your regime protects rabid dogs. You have "democracy" and have to respond for the people you elected.
We are sick of it.
War is a worst possible solution to anything. We didn't want it, while you supported above-mentioned rabid dogs.
You're seriously trying to take a victim stance here?
For a guy so opposed to war you've sure done a lot of chest thumping this week... Just saying.
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You think we are aggressors? STFU.
When you bomb Tripoly, Baghdad or Belgrade - it's OK, when we protect our citizens - it's a no-no.
Don't like it? Go diddly yourself.
Wanna play? C'mon, invade us. See the tips of our bayonets. Feel them.
Cowards.
Looks like I am getting really ugly here :(
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Sad, really... we had a great hope for a free; democratic russia joining the rest of the world..
We are not going to be a part of the Americentric world.
All we need is to live as WE want. With no one telling how we should behave.
We don't want to see anyone shooting MLRS at civilians right next door to us.
My Grand Father was was one of the first artillery officers to operate BM-13 "Katyusha". As he said - it was the "most scary weapon ever invented by human kind". BM-21 is a lot more scary.
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Atleast he'd be doing something about it unlike lets say... John Kerry would... :rolleyes:
Umm...Your fair-haired golden boy GWB hasn't really done anything yet, either. And his inaction is really pissing me off.
Ordinarily, I tend to lean to be anti-war...but, this is something that if we had acted swiftly, could have been nipped in the bud, before it had gotten to this point.
And another thing; If the pentagon had been warning about this since before July, then why didn't we have a plan for a possible Russian incursion ready?
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You think we are aggressors? hugs.
When you bomb Tripoly, Baghdad or Belgrade - it's OK, when we protect our citizens - it's a no-no.
Don't like it? Go mask yourself.
Wanna play? C'mon, invade us. See the tips of our bayonets. Feel them.
Cowards.
Looks like I am getting really ugly here :(
:huh Step away from the key board and get some fresh air.
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http://www.pennwellblogs.com/mae/2008/08/russian-invasion-of-south-ossetia.html
Let's try to put this into perspective. The South Ossetia district is probably roughly the size of Imperial County, Calif. Now what if Mexico decided to issue Mexican passports to all the residents of Imperial County, and send in "peace keepers" under the guise of protecting the Hispanic population of that county.
Then, say, some folks in Imperial County started rioting, and county sheriff's deputies in riot gear went in to quiet things down. What Russia is doing in Georgia, would be the same as if Mexico sent soldiers across the California border to chase off the sheriff's deputies and occupy Imperial County.
How well would that all go over? Not well, I would imagine.
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:huh Step away from the key board and get some fresh air.
Shifty... there's still no 'steel' in the US response to Russia... in deference to european sensibilities, none has been implemented post WWII in the europe.
So, in Russia's eyes, we are cowards.
I would applaud any move by the US to modify that opinion.
ANY move.
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when we protect our citizens - it's a no-no.
I'm confused...I thought these were Georgians with dual citizenship, not Russians with dual citizenship?
Wanna play? C'mon, invade us. See the tips of our bayonets. Feel them.
I think there's definitely some sort of language barrier here that exacerbates your use of that type of jingoistic xenophobic language. First, its high time everyone of Slavic origin drops the 10 ton chip on their shoulder that fuels their nationalistic fervor. Russia has a very rich history and tradition that obviates the need for any type of xenophobic impulses--let your past contributions to the world's society speak for themselves. Just like every other major power in the world, Russia has much to be proud of that stands by itself, without the need of thugish militarism to make it credible.
This is not worth one ounce of U.S. blood being spilt on Russian soil, and I don't think even Putin himself thinks that's even remotely a possibility. Anything and everything that occurs in this situation will bear out within the confines of Georgian territory and/or territorial waters, and international waters.
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:huh Step away from the key board and get some fresh air.
I remember the TNT scent pretty well, still don't feel it here in MSK.
The air is pretty fresh.
I feel it's you guys need some air.
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http://www.pennwellblogs.com/mae/2008/08/russian-invasion-of-south-ossetia.html
Remember how you guys annexed Texas from above mentioned Mexico?
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the neocon socialists here sure do have a penchant for throwing stones at mirrors. :rofl
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See Rules #4, #5, #7
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the neocon socialists here sure do have a penchant for throwing stones at mirrors. :rofl
If only this situation could be described that simply.
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Remember how you guys annexed Texas from above mentioned Mexico?
Mind your business commie.
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Mind your business commie.
STFU mass-murderer supporter.
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Remember how you guys annexed Texas from above mentioned Mexico?
Your ignorance of Texas history is showing. Texas fought Mexico and won it's independence from Mexico on it's own. Only years later did it become a member of the United States. My ancestors were Texans when it was independent.
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I'm confused...I thought these were Georgians with dual citizenship, not Russians with dual citizenship?
That would be correct. The Georgians with dual citizenship are ethnic Ossets. The only reason they are Russian citizens is because Russia handed out passports like they were candy.
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(http://brotherpeacemaker.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/head_up_your_ass.jpg)
No doubt.
I had to laugh at that one. :lol
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Your ignorance of Texas history is showing. Texas fought Mexico and won it's independence from Mexico on it's own. Only years later did it become a member of the United States. My ancestors were Texans when it was independent.
So did South Osetins back in 1990s.
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Does Boroda pay $15 a month to us Capitalist Pigs?
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That would be correct. The Georgians with dual citizenship are ethnic Ossets. The only reason they are Russian citizens is because Russia handed out passports like they were candy.
It;s our own business, no one should "advise" Russia on a question of citizenship.
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Does Boroda pay $15 a month to us Capitalist Pigs?
Nope.
It's up to respectable Moderators here to ban me.
I am the last person to discuss moderation policy here.
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It;s our own business, no one should "advise" Russia on a question of citizenship.
So, you feel you are entitled to go into any sovereign nation, hand a portion of the population passports, claim them as citizens, and then invade that sovereign nation on their behalf?
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Remember how you guys annexed Texas from above mentioned Mexico?
Main articles: Texas Revolution, Republic of Texas, and Texas Annexation
The Convention of 1832 and the Convention of 1833 were responses to rising unrest at policies of the Mexican government. Delegates feared the end of duty-free imports from the United States and the threat of ending slavery.[38] In 1835, Antonio López de Santa Anna, President of Mexico, created a unified constitution for Mexico which created a centralized government with power concentrated in the President, and turned states into provinces with governors appointed from Mexico City.[38] States around Mexico rebelled against this imposition, including Chihuahua, Zacatecas and Yucatan. Of note was the Centralista forces' brutal suppression of dissidents in Zacatecas.[39] Texans also resented policies such as the forcible disarmament of settlers, and the expulsion of immigrants and legal landowners originally from the United States.
Republic of Texas. The present-day outlines of the U.S. states are superimposed on the boundaries of 1836–1845
Republic of Texas. The present-day outlines of the U.S. states are superimposed on the boundaries of 1836–1845
On 2 March 1836, the Convention of 1836 signed a Declaration of Independence.[40][41] On 21 April 1836, the Texans—led by General Sam Houston—won their independence at the Battle of San Jacinto. Santa Anna's capture led to the Treaties of Velasco. Mexico repudiated the treaties and vowed to reconquer Texas. Later in 1836, the Texans adopted a constitution that formally legalized slavery. The Republic of Texas included the area of the present state of Texas, and additional unoccupied territory to the west and northwest.[39]
Most Texans wanted their Republic to be annexed into the United States. Events such as the Dawson Massacre and two recaptures of Béxar in Texas of 1842 added momentum to the desire for statehood.[42] However, strong abolitionist opposition to adding a slave state blocked Texas's admission until pro-annexation James K. Polk won the election of 1844. On December 29, 1845, Texas was admitted to the U.S. as a constituent state of the Union.[43] The Mexican–American War followed, with decisive victories by the U.S.[44] Texas's boundaries were set at their present form after the Compromise of 1850. Land which later became half of present day New Mexico, a third of Colorado, and small portions of Kansas, Oklahoma, and Wyoming, was ceded for the federal government's assumption of $10 million of the old republic's debt.[45] Post-war Texas grew rapidly as migrants poured into the cotton lands of the state.[46]
The facts can speak for themselves.
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Invade!?
So far we stopped a genocide. Stopped rabid dogs your regime support.
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Russia just broke the truce and is rolling into the georgian capital.
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It;s our own business, no one should "advise" Russia on a question of citizenship.
The point is, they are citizens of two countries, not one. Giving them passports made them Russian citizens. There place of birth makes them Georgian citizens.
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Nope.
It's up to respectable Moderators here to ban me.
I am the last person to discuss moderation policy here.
I would be glad to pay the $15 a month for boroda... give him an aces high passport. then we can 'protect' him legally, up to and including raping him, destroying his future and taking whatever other liberties are necessary to 'protect' him.
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Most Texans wanted their Republic to be annexed into the United States.
So did South Osetins.
What's the problem?...
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Invade!?
So far we stopped a genocide. Stopped rabid dogs your regime support.
Show evidence of genocide by the Georgians. Putin saying there was genocide doesn't count. It must be evidence given by a third party.
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So did South Osetins.
What's the problem?...
The problem is that the world doesn't work like it did in the 1800's. No country, not even your own recognizes the sovereignity (sp? I think I butchered that one lol) of South Ossetia.
You brought up Texas btw, my post was to show the basic history of how Texas became a state, nothing more.
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Show evidence of genocide by the Georgians. Putin saying there was genocide doesn't count. It must be evidence given by a third party.
MLRS at the populated city.
Georgian TV showed it boasting they "restore order" in S.O.
That's where I started this thread.
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Russia just broke the truce and is rolling into the georgian capital.
Did they only agree to the truce so they could refuel their vehicles and resupply their troops in peace? It's looking like that may be the case.
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The problem is that the world doesn't work like it did in the 1800's. No country, not even your own recognizes the sovereignity (sp? I think I butchered that one lol) of South Ossetia.
You brought up Texas btw, my post was to show the basic history of how Texas became a state, nothing more.
Russia protects it's citizens.
You quoted a text that proves my point.
Dismissed. Next please.
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MLRS at the populated city.
Georgian TV showed it boasting they "restore order" in S.O.
That's where I started this thread.
It was a response to similiar shelling from the Ossetian' side, Boroda. That's what the news' said earlier.
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Simple question boroda.
Why didn't the russian military stop at the south osetian border? If the position was to protect the dual citizen georgia/russia population, than why did they cross into mainland georgia?
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It was a response to similiar shelling from the Ossetian' side, Boroda. That's what the news' said earlier.
Check the timestamps please. I started this thread less then 2 hours after vermins started shooting at Tskhinval.
Shooting. MLRS. At the city. No excuses.
Osetins just want to be left alone. I mean - since 1990, when Georgians had a civil war.
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MLRS at the populated city.
Georgian TV showed it boasting they "restore order" in S.O.
That's where I started this thread.
Firing those rockets does not in itself constitute genocide. If those rockets were being fired at separatists that were firing at Georgian positions, that certainly is not genocide since in this scenario they are being aimed at military targets.
Definition of genocide. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/genocide
Main Entry:
geno·cide Listen to the pronunciation of genocide
Pronunciation:
\ˈje-nə-ˌsīd\
Function:
noun
Date:
1944
: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
— geno·cid·al Listen to the pronunciation of genocidal \ˌje-nə-ˈsī-dəl\ adjective
We have seen no evidence of any deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political or cultural group in South Ossetia.....at least not by the Georgians. The Ossets themselves have been accused of burning entire Georgian villages that lie within the boundaries of the South Ossetia province. Those reports come from Swedish reporters.
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Remember how you guys annexed Texas from above mentioned Mexico?
What you guys, do you speak about? The United States had no part in Texas breaking from Mexico. It was a revolution of settlers and Mexican citizens living in Texas. This occured after Santa Anna declared himself Dictator of Mexico. The result was the establishment of The Republic of Texas. Which joined the United States of it's own free will some nine years later.
THE DECLARATION OF CAUSES
"Whereas, General Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna, and other military chieftains, have, by force of arms overthrown the federal institutions of Mexico, and dissolved the social compact which existed between Texas and the other members of the Mexican confederacy; now the good people of Texas, availing themselves of their natural rights, Solemnly Declare:”
"That they have taken up arms in defence of their rights and liberties, which were threatened by the encroachments of military despots, and in defence of the republican principles of the federal constitution of Mexico, 1824.”
"That Texas is no longer morally or civilly bound by the compact of union; yet, stimulated by the generosity and sympathy common to free people, they offer their support and assistance to such members of the Mexican confederacy as will take up arms against military despotism.”
"That they hold it to be their right during the disorganization of the federal system, and the reign of despotism, to withdraw from the union, and to establish an independent government."
This document was created in justification of the Texan actions which were to follow. The Declaration of Causes was to convince the Federalists that the Texans only desired to preserve the Mexican Constitution of 1824 and to justify the Texan actions to the rest of the world.
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Inasmuch as what you've said about Putin is true, I would point out that in Russia, He's pretty popular.
Yes I dont doubt Putin is very popular in Russia. In fact I'll bet you could go there and not find one Russian who says anything bad about him. I bet the same goes for the Chinese leadership if you went to China. Or Cuba, or Syria, North Korea, or a hundred other places none of us go to.
Thats pretty amazing aint it? :huh
"In russia we have old custom... we troll american BBS with party noise... 'we will bury you', .. much fun to observe western reaction." *burp*"
Your the first Russian Ive ever seen do it. I assumed I never see Russians cause they are afraid of posting due to Govt. censors.
Course your probably a 15 yo kid from Kokomo IN. pretending your a Russian anyways. :lol
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Simple question boroda.
Why didn't the russian military stop at the south osetian border? If the position was to protect the dual citizen georgia/russia population, than why did they cross into mainland georgia?
Because they have also stated they wish to punish the Georgian president and put him on trial.
Russia has been angry with Georgia because of its pro-western stance.
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It;s our own business, no one should "advise" Russia on a question of citizenship.
i doubt you will gain any plus on this forum Boroda ;)
but your not alone', i think you are right on this topic.
So many talk here about "attacked a sovereign nation"
using this words and still having an own war running,
who even started as "attacking a sovereign nation", sorry but its laughable.
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Simple question boroda.
Why didn't the russian military stop at the south osetian border? If the position was to protect the dual citizen georgia/russia population, than why did they cross into mainland georgia?
If they didn't stop - I have to say they're wrong.
So far Russian Military provides humanitarian aid to Gori and Georgian villages.
I don't watch TV, just listening to pro-Western radio station, echo.msk.ru
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i doubt you will gain any plus on this forum Boroda ;)
but your not alone', i think you are right on this topic.
So many talk here about "attacked a sovereign nation"
using this words and still having an own war running,
who even started as "attacking a sovereign nation", sorry but its laughable.
Start your own thread, this one is ours. :D
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Yes I dont doubt Putin is very popular in Russia. In fact I'll bet you could go there and not find one Russian who says anything bad about him. I bet the same goes for the Chinese leadership if you went to China. Or Cuba, or Syria, North Korea, or a hundred other places none of us go to.
Thats pretty amazing aint it? :huh
Your the first Russian Ive ever seen do it. I assumed I never see Russians cause they are afraid of posting due to Govt. censors.
Course your probably a 15 yo kid from Kokomo IN. pretending your a Russian anyways. :lol
I am not a big fan of Putin and his gang of crooks.
He is quite popular here though.
I was born in Leningrad, in 1972. I posted my street address here for Hangtime. I live in Moscow, Russian Federation now. Respectable Moderators here can check my IP address, it's Acado cable provider.
My phone is turned off now, don't bother calling me.
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Quo licit Jovi non licit bovi ???
We have our own interests and you have to understand it.
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My phone is turned off now, don't bother calling me.
You should turn it back on. That way we can pull crank calls on you at all hours of the night. :devil :rock
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You should turn it back on. That way we can pull crank calls on you at all hours of the night. :devil :rock
Got enough SIP calls this morning. Thanks.
Going to bed now.
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If they didn't stop - I have to say they're wrong.
I think that it could have been handled differently.
I know your not on the front lines, your in front of your computer like me, but i really see putin isloating russia again, and causing alot of problems for you and your people in the future.
By the way, why don't you change your avatar to the russian flag, communism is dead there?
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So, you feel you are entitled to go into any sovereign nation, hand a portion of the population passports, claim them as citizens, and then invade that sovereign nation on their behalf?
Thank you, it was also nice watching boroda go from ignorance to arrogance now to downright One sided blind justification.
now your down to the "BECAUSE WE CAN, DAH VODKA!" side of the opinion boroda.
Love the mindset. :rock
Oh boy.. WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush said Wednesday he is dispatching U.S. military personnel to Georgia in a "vigorous and ongoing" mission to provide humanitarian aid to victims of the fighting between Russian and Georgian troops.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/13/us.russia.diplomacy/index.html?eref=rss_topstories
Guess it is almost go time.
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Got enough SIP calls this morning. Thanks.
Going to bed now.
Aww darn.....I wanted to call you at 2AM to advise you to go urinate, then go back to sleep. Then call you again at 3AM and ask you what you were doing up so early? :devil
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What's missing here?
Several Euro's/Canadians have taken the view that the Russians have done no more to Georgia than the US did to Iraq. Point being we can't castigate the Russians for this because in the view of the Euros/Canadians, the US did the same thing.
What's missing?
These very same Euro's/Canadians condemned the US move into Iraq.
Haven't seen them condemn the Russian move into Georgia, have you? In fact, they seem to be cheering the Russians on.
Tells you everything right there.
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i doubt you will gain any plus on this forum Boroda ;)
but your not alone', i think you are right on this topic.
So many talk here about "attacked a sovereign nation"
using this words and still having an own war running,
who even started as "attacking a sovereign nation", sorry but its laughable.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
Oh, pardon my hysterical laughter. In any event, please show where Georgia has invaded a neighboring nation, plundered it, and attempted to occupy it. Also, please show where Georgia has been under international sanction for well over a decade. Follow by showing where the current president of Georgia seized power rather than being elected by the people. Finally, show where the current government of Georgia freely and publicly paid the families of homicidal terrorists for attacking other nations.
In other words, you are attempting to compare apples with horse turds, and it ain't going well for you. But please, don't let that stop you. Laughable is CERTAINLY a word I'd use to describe your position and comparison, and we all need the amusement.
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Several Euro's/Canadians have taken the view that the Russians have done no more to Georgia than the US did to Iraq.
You completely in conflict with your mind?!
Or you are going to tell me that Iraq targeted US citizens with MLRS!?
Sounds you still "plot ingress routes" inside your mind...
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This Euro condemns the Russian invasion of Georgia but disagreed with the invasion of Iraq.
Kind of puts holes in your mental model maybe? :aok
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This Euro condemns the Russian invasion of Georgia but disagreed with the invasion of Iraq.
Kind of puts holes in your mental model maybe? :aok
What people don't understand, is that each conflict has to be taken in kind. IMHO, no two wars' are started for the same reasons, or by the same players.
The European unwillingness to do anything one way or another might be a sign that they aren't ready to diversfy the bulk of their oil & gas purchases, which pretty much come from Russia at this time. In reality, they aren't ready for a confrontation with Russia economically. The Russians' have the same Damocles' sword of energy hanging over them that the Arab's had over us for a long time. Britain, Norway, and some of the other North European countries' might be able to get by on the North sea fields' for essential things, but the rest of Europe is SOL unless they get going on obtaining some alternative sources' for their energy needs.
Personally, I don't think that all the Euros' are against Georgia in this. I'm more inclined to think that they'd prefer to remain quiet, lest someone, somewhere, shuts' a pipeline valve.
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This Euro condemns the Russian invasion of Georgia but disagreed with the invasion of Iraq.
Kind of puts holes in your mental model maybe? :aok
Same as you really, Toad must be smoking some good poop or he cannot tell whos who on this BB. And btw, i think Nielsen supported your Iraq invasion.
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Georgia's war is more like that of the first gulf war than the second gulf war. In the second gulf war the USA kept telling us that there are WMD and terrorists in Iraq, while we insisted that there is neither - which seems to be true (albeit after the end of the "major operations" there are more terrorists than you can count and the operations are more major than the invasion itself).
Georgia however seems to have invaded SO. Although I have to wonder what does it have to do with russians, who have insisted on several occasion that such issues (on their part) are internal affairs and do not concern the outsiders (Chechnya). SO is an internal issue of Georgia, but now it's a reason to attack Georgia while the attack on Checnya wasn't a reason to blame Russia..? Russians are russians even when boiled in grease :rolleyes:
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The strange thing is that in their rush to accumulate options without US help Western Europe is in fine shape Militarily. They have developed, deployed, or plan to deploy an entire host of advanced military techology, even their own standoff precision weapons.
But pretty much everything, fighters, DDs, LHDs, CVs, submarines, tanks, missiles. Our non-American NATO allies have a large qualitative edge on the Russians in exactly the kind of systems that would give them fits. And part of what spurred on this development is a post-Bosnia Euro wish to develope the capability to act in such scenerios without US help. In fact should the Russians get really stupid I'd bet our NATO allies could bloody them good even if the Yanks dont show up to play.
And with US backing?
Im just saying lets stay real here. NATO is still the most fearsome military machine the world has ever known. What you saw in Gulf 1 was NATO flexing its strength. Now, in 2008, we are generations ahead technology wise. My guess is Putin will try and exploit Political weakness in NATO because military weakness doesnt exist.
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The strange thing is that in their rush to accumulate option without US help Western Europe is in fine shape Militarily. They have developed, deployed, or plan to deploy an entire host of advanced military techology, even their own standoff precision weapons.
But pretty much everything, fighters, DDs, LHDs, CVs, submarines, tanks, missiles. Our non-American NATO allies have a large qualitative edge on the Russians in exactly the kind of systems that would give them fits. And part of what spurred on this development is a post-Bosnia Euro wish to develope the capability to act in such scenerios without US help. In fact should the Russians get really stupid I'd bet our NATO allies could bloody them good even if the Yanks dont show up to play.
And with US backing?
Im just saying lets stay real here. NATO is still the most fearsome military machine the world has ever known. What you saw in Gulf 1 was NATO flexing its strength. Now, in 2008, we are generations ahead technology wise. My guess is Putin will try and exploit Political weakness in NATO because military weakness doesnt exist.
Putin is using his energy option (See my post above) in response to the Euros'.
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But pretty much everything, fighters, DDs, LHDs, CVs, submarines, tanks, missiles. Our non-American NATO allies have a large qualitative edge on the Russians in exactly the kind of systems that would give them fits.
Actually, Russia does have many amazing weapon technologies and in fact in many areas more advanced than any western counterpart, including the US.
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Actually, Russia does have many amazing weapon technologies and in fact in many areas more advanced than any western counterpart, including the US.
They have some. But havnt been able to field many. Their weapons and tactics simply arent up to western standards. If you think different then please name the system and the numbers operational.
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One thing has become clear now; The Russians' have advanced into Gori, in defiance of the cease-fire. IMHO, they are trying to move as fast as they can to take advantage of garbled diplomatic communications, and what is perceived as a lack of accurate reporting on the ground. One of the things' that marks' this conflict is the massive cyberwarfare attack that was launched on Georgian' gov't. computers and websites. I believe that this was a part of the Russian Disinformation plan, tied together with slow-moving responses from the Kremlin.
...How long is either Europe, or the U.S., going to wait before they even do something like throw the Russians' out of the G-8? Unless, of course, they are trying to hide or mask any kind of military option. In that case, I could see the relative silence on the part of Europe; A suprise attack catching the Russians' off-guard, destroying say, their Air assets' in-theatre before they could react, might be in the brewing.
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Why bother going in if you dont get a stranglehold on the Caspian oil spigot?
Why bother stopping if you can grab the entire country with the knowledge no one will intervene?
They are going to grab it all. I said that the 1st day of the fighting.
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About the Irregular troops that been reported looting/burning of houses etc. Could this be the Serb, Osetian and Russian volunteers doing this?
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...How long is either Europe, or the U.S., going to wait before they even do something like throw the Russians' out of the G-8? Unless, of course, they are trying to hide or mask any kind of military option. In that case, I could see the relative silence on the part of Europe; A suprise attack catching the Russians' off-guard, destroying say, their Air assets' in-theatre before they could react, might be in the brewing.
How long? IMHO Russia has a free and clear ticket as long as they want....Here's why I say that....
The U.S. can't get in to it to deep. We haven't the resources. Euro's can't...they haven't the resources either And they have a pipeline issue.
IMHO....Russia can march all over the place. NATO can't get involved all that much if at all. ....The region is at Russias mercy if they do....all in all...they played it perfectly.
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Ok. Here's some of the latest from the White House:
By JENNIFER LOVEN, Associated Press Writer
41 minutes ago
WASHINGTON - President Bush put the U.S. more firmly than ever on Georgia's side in its conflict with Russia on Wednesday, sending humanitarian aid on American military planes to help the embattled ex-Soviet republic and displaying growing impatience with Moscow's aggression.
ADVERTISEMENT
Six days into the fighting in the tiny, impoverished country wedged between Russia and Turkey on the Black Sea, Bush said Moscow's apparent violation of a cease-fire agreement puts its aspirations for global acceptance at risk. In brief but stern remarks from the White House, the president demanded that Russia end all military activity inside its neighbor and withdraw all troops sent in recent days into Georgian territory.
Amid some fear that Russian troops may be setting up for some type of medium-term occupation of parts of Georgia or even have intentions to press on to its capital of Tbilisi, Bush promised to "rally the free world in the defense of a free Georgia."
Bush postponed Thursday's planned start of a two-week Texas vacation for a couple of days to monitor developments. He also dispatched Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to Paris for talks with Europeans and then to the Georgian capital of Tbilisi "to demonstrate our solidarity with the Georgian people," and announced that a massive U.S. aid effort for devastated Georgians was already under way.
"This is not 1968 and the invasion of Czechoslovakia where Russia can threaten a neighbor, occupy a capital, overthrow a government and get away with it," Rice said just hours before leaving for France. "Things have changed."
Russian tanks on Wednesday rumbled into the Georgian city of Gori, a hub along the country's main east-west highway, and Georgian officials said it was looted and bombed. An Associated Press reporter later saw dozens of tanks and military vehicles roaring south, deeper into Georgia. Bush also cited evidence that Russian forces have entered and taken positions in the port city of Poti and that Russia was blowing up Georgian vessels.
Rice said Russia's actions, taken together, show that it "has brutally pushed this military operation well beyond the bounds of anything that might have related to" the protection of Russian peacekeepers who have been stationed in the separatist provinces of South Ossetia and Abkhazia since the early 1990s.
Later in the day, Georgian officials said the Russians pulled out of the western town of Zugdidi, near Abkhazia.
But a U.S. intelligence official said it is believed that Russians are consolidating their positions in South Ossetia and Abkhazia, which are loyal to Moscow.
The crisis erupted last week when Georgia tried to secure control over South Ossetia. Russia's fierce military response expanded to Abkhazia along Georgia's coast, and ended up on purely Georgian soil.
According to defense officials, it took until Wednesday afternoon for the U.S. to have what they called more robust intelligence on Russian movements around Gori. With the military's eyes and ears focused on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, intelligence-gathering was hampered through the weekend until the Pentagon authorized the repositioning of some satellites and was able to meld that data with reports from the ground, the officials said.
Bush's statement Wednesday represented his clearest — though still unspecified — threat to Moscow.
"In recent years, Russia has sought to integrate into the diplomatic, political, economic and security structures of the 21st century," the president said. "The United States has supported those efforts. Now Russia is putting its aspirations at risk by taking actions in Georgia that are inconsistent with the principles of those institutions."
Tough words aside, there appears to be little the U.S. can — or will — do to punish Russia. In one demonstration of the administration's sensitivity over its actions, Bush has taken just one question on the crisis, during a TV interview at the Beijing Olympics, and has never publicly discussed any specific penalty.
The administration and its allies are debating whether to expel Moscow from an exclusive club of wealthy nations and canceling an upcoming joint NATO-Russia military exercise. Defense Department spokesman Bryan Whitman said the U.S. will be reviewing other military-to-military cooperative programs with Russia as well.
Bush also gave repeated and unqualified assurances of "America's unwavering support for Georgia's democratic government."
And he announced that U.S. military assets and personnel would be deploying into the conflict zone. Though they are only going on a humanitarian mission, Bush made a point of noting that "we will use U.S. aircraft, as well as naval forces" to distribute supplies. He warned Russia not to impede relief efforts in any way.
All this appeared designed to answer criticism that Bush has not done enough to stand by his 2005 pledge, made from the center of Tbilisi before tens of thousands of citizens, to "stand with" the people of Georgia.
Since the 2003 Rose Revolution toppled a corrupt, Moscow-friendly government and placed President Mikhail Saakashvili in office, Georgia has staked its future on leaning West. Bush has rewarded Saakashvili by holding Georgia up as a global democratic inspiration, supporting its request to join NATO, and training and overhauling its military.
But only hours before Bush's remarks Wednesday, Saakashvili called the Western response of late inadequate. "I feel that they are partly to blame," said Saakashvili, who talked with Bush by phone earlier in the day. "Not only those who commit atrocities are responsible ... but so are those who fail to react."
Bush's more pro-Georgia emphasis adds additional tension to a relationship with Russia already severely frayed by disputes over Moscow's democratic backsliding, a planned U.S. missile defense system in Eastern Europe and Western support for Kosovo's independence.
Rice signaled that Russia should not hope for a friendlier view under a new administration next year. She said both presumptive presidential candidates, Republican John McCain and Democrat Barack Obama, have backed the Bush administration's efforts.
From Moscow, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov derided Georgia's leadership as "a special project of the United States" and said the U.S. will have to choose "either support for a virtual project, or real partnership on issues that really demand collective action." This was a reference to U.S. cooperation with Russia in the U.N. Security Council on Iran, North Korea and other global hot spots.
Despite extensive intelligence resources and deep ties to the Georgian military, the Bush administration has scrambled to determine what's happening on the ground, for instance whether Russia was honoring the cease-fire or threatening Tbilisi. Briefings on the matter keep getting scheduled, then postponed, and then canceled.
"There are confused reports and varying reports that are coming in," White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said. "It's not the easiest thing in the world given the geography and the cutoff of information."
Still, Perino called the reports that Russia had violated Tuesday's cease-fire "credible."
___
Associated Press writers Anne Gearan, Pauline Jelinek and Lolita C. Baldor contributed to this report.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080813/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_russia_georgia (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080813/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_russia_georgia)
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One thing has become clear now; The Russians' have advanced into Gori, in defiance of the cease-fire.
(I'm back from a ban...)
1) Russian armor never entered Gori.
2) Russian news said that Gori, as of 5 hours ago, given back to Georgian police.
3) Russia will stay few days in Georgia to see what happens, especially since "Bush's Lap-Dog" still refuses 6 point of peace agreement.
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Ok. Here's some of the latest from the White House:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080813/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_russia_georgia (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080813/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_russia_georgia)
Which leads me right back to my point....No one can do much of anything outside of token aid....if the U.S. pushes the issue hard...it could escalate WAY out of control.....Same for euros.
Basically.....just as I think.....Russia has free reign.
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(I'm back from a ban...)
1) Russian armor never entered Gori.
Russian troops have entered Gori. And thats final. What does it matter if its Armor or not?
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Russian troops have entered Gori. And thats final. What does it matter if its Armor or not?
Big difference. Thankfully city was empty of Georgian forces so no fighting took place within. Also those special forces took that city before yesterday. (before temp peace agreement)
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Tell me about the difference, i would like to know.
Also those special forces took that city before yesterday. (before temp peace agreement)
They took Gori 2 days ago?
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(I'm back from a ban...)
1) Russian armor never entered Gori.
Russian BMP Infantry fighting vehicles are there now. Just because they don't happen to be T-80's is simply semantics. It's an offensive force, occupying a City of a sovereign nation.
2) Russian news said that Gori, as of 5 hours ago, given back to Georgian police.
Probably disinformation.
3) Russia will stay few days in Georgia to see what happens, especially since "Bush's Lap-Dog" still refuses 6 point of peace agreement.
They signed on the 2nd day of this thing. Georgia was pushing for it. It's Russia that doesn't want any peace agreement, unless it's handy for a temporary cease-fire to resupply. Then, It's off to the Tbilisi race again.
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(I'm back from a ban...)
1) Russian armor never entered Gori.
2) Russian news said that Gori, as of 5 hours ago, given back to Georgian police.
3) Russia will stay few days in Georgia to see what happens, especially since "Bush's Lap-Dog" still refuses 6 point of peace agreement.
So, ARMOR never entered Gori, but RUSSIAN TROOPS did. CLEAR VIOLATION of the ceasefire agreement Russia agreed to. And they want GEORGIA to accept and abide by a peace agreement written by RUSSIA????? :rofl
They are close to the capitol (if not in) and they have taken the largest port city and wrecked Georgia's coast guard. More clear violations of the same ceasefire agreement, as well as a ridiculous over reach of the supposedly "legitimate goal" of the Russian action.
And the Russians expect anyone to accept a "peace agreement" they author? :rofl
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This may be one of the reasons' why we haven't seen much of an American response...
The Pentagon also is considering what kind of ship to send to support the humanitarian mission, should it be ordered to send one, an order that Pentagon officials said hadn't yet been given.
Naval officials said the kind of ship sent would signal U.S. intentions. Among the options are the USS Comfort, a hospital ship docked in Baltimore , or one of several destroyers stationed in the Mediterranean. The Black Sea, on which Georgia's coast lies, is too shallow for an American aircraft carrier.
I pulled that out of a McClatchy story. It makes sense, after a fashion now. We can't physically get a CV into the Black sea.
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1) Are they? Are you sure? Because people that live there say differently. Also, I didn't see them from numerous western journalists, even before two journalists got killed by georgian fire. All I see is same one column of BMPs on a road that every western news source shows. They have been showing same footage for past 24 hours....
2) I can say same thing about anything CNN shows right now. At least FOX / BBC tried to show other side of this.
3) They can sign many things, but georgian forces are still attacking.
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Russia protects it's citizens.
You quoted a text that proves my point.
Dismissed. Next please.
I didn't see this post earlier.....
First, you said....
Remember how you guys annexed Texas from above mentioned Mexico?
Then I posted:
Main articles: Texas Revolution, Republic of Texas, and Texas Annexation
The Convention of 1832 and the Convention of 1833 were responses to rising unrest at policies of the Mexican government. Delegates feared the end of duty-free imports from the United States and the threat of ending slavery.[38] In 1835, Antonio López de Santa Anna, President of Mexico, created a unified constitution for Mexico which created a centralized government with power concentrated in the President, and turned states into provinces with governors appointed from Mexico City.[38] States around Mexico rebelled against this imposition, including Chihuahua, Zacatecas and Yucatan. Of note was the Centralista forces' brutal suppression of dissidents in Zacatecas.[39] Texans also resented policies such as the forcible disarmament of settlers, and the expulsion of immigrants and legal landowners originally from the United States.
Republic of Texas. The present-day outlines of the U.S. states are superimposed on the boundaries of 1836–1845
Republic of Texas. The present-day outlines of the U.S. states are superimposed on the boundaries of 1836–1845
On 2 March 1836, the Convention of 1836 signed a Declaration of Independence.[40][41] On 21 April 1836, the Texans—led by General Sam Houston—won their independence at the Battle of San Jacinto. Santa Anna's capture led to the Treaties of Velasco. Mexico repudiated the treaties and vowed to reconquer Texas. Later in 1836, the Texans adopted a constitution that formally legalized slavery. The Republic of Texas included the area of the present state of Texas, and additional unoccupied territory to the west and northwest.[39]
Most Texans wanted their Republic to be annexed into the United States. Events such as the Dawson Massacre and two recaptures of Béxar in Texas of 1842 added momentum to the desire for statehood.[42] However, strong abolitionist opposition to adding a slave state blocked Texas's admission until pro-annexation James K. Polk won the election of 1844. On December 29, 1845, Texas was admitted to the U.S. as a constituent state of the Union.[43] The Mexican–American War followed, with decisive victories by the U.S.[44] Texas's boundaries were set at their present form after the Compromise of 1850. Land which later became half of present day New Mexico, a third of Colorado, and small portions of Kansas, Oklahoma, and Wyoming, was ceded for the federal government's assumption of $10 million of the old republic's debt.[45] Post-war Texas grew rapidly as migrants poured into the cotton lands of the state.[46]
Texas was at one time a state within Mexico. Then in 1836 Texans fought and died to earn their independence from Mexico without the help of the USA. They then set up their own country and nine years later became a part of the US. We did not annex it from Mexico since it hadn't belonged to Mexico for the nine previous years. Prior to James Polk wining the presidential election the US did not want Texas to become a part of the US due to the slavery issue.
Your American History lesson for the day, this one is at no charge. Next one costs you $100. :D
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Its a non issue, Russian troops are in Gori. Dont feed the troll. And ban his arse again, hes only here to try to get people angry. Really Skuzzy what are you waiting for.
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The weak response from the U.S., among others, is at least somewhat responsible for this going as far as it has. On the flip side, I suppose the current administration can be forgiven at least to some extent for being hesitant to engage in a possible escalation of an already bad situation, given the rest of the world already calls us cowboys.
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Its a non issue, Russian troops are in Gori. Dont feed the troll. And ban his arse again, his only here to try to get people angry.
Did I attack you? Do you have a problem with me or information I'm sharing?
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3) They can sign many things, but georgian forces are still attacking.
Are the Georgians supposed to just lay down their weapons and do nothing while the Russian units over run their country?
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This Euro condemns the Russian invasion of Georgia but disagreed with the invasion of Iraq.
Kind of puts holes in your mental model maybe? :aok
Not at all.
What I said was "Several Euro's/Canadians have taken the view "
Read the thread. There are SEVERAL Euro's/Canadians who have taken that view and a few that sound like Putin's Cheerleading Squad.
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Its a non issue, Russian troops are in Gori. Dont feed the troll. And ban his arse again, hes only here to try to get people angry. Really Skuzzy what are you waiting for.
While I find their postings to be mostly devoid of real facts, I don't think campaigning for them (Russian and Boroda) to be banned is really necessary. I may not agree with how Skuzzy moderates the board sometimes, but it's his job and not mine. Possibly some of Boroda's posts cross the line Skuzzy drew about threats and such between countries, but it's his (Skuzzy's) call.
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Are the Georgians supposed to just lay down their weapons and do nothing while the Russian units over run their country?
What else should they do after peacekeeping forces with little "MC" blue tag got run-over and killed. If 6 peace points are not signed, georgia will try this again and again.
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Same as you really, Toad must be smoking some good poop or he cannot tell whos who on this BB. And btw, i think Nielsen supported your Iraq invasion.
Maniac, you and Dowding are not, unfortunately, in the majority of non-US posters in this thread.
I think both of you see it fairly clearly but there are others with whom even you are arguing.
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What else should they do after peacekeeping forces with little "MC" blue tag got run-over and killed.
Who started it is still in dispute. Russia claims Georgia attacked without provocation. Georgia claims they were fired upon (and some of their villages were shelled) by Osset separatists and they simply returned fire.
If all Russia was concerned with was protecting the Ossets and the Russian peace keepers they would have stopped at the border of South Ossetia.
If the Russian peace keepers simply got caught in the crossfire of these two factions maybe they should have moved out of the way and let them fight it out.
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Who started it is still in dispute. Russia claims Georgia attacked without provocation. Georgia claims they were fired up (and some of their villages were shelled) by Osset separatists and they simply returned fire.
If all Russia was concerned with was protecting the Ossets and the Russian peace keepers they would have stopped at the border of South Ossetia.
If the Russian peace keepers simply got caught in the crossfire of these two factions maybe they should have moved out of the way and let them fight it out.
According to Russian sources, they did just that. But Georgian forces counter-attacked and continued to shell city.
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According to Russian sources, they did just that. But Georgian forces counter-attacked and continued to shell city.
They did what?
The Russian peace keepers moved? If that's what you meant, then they obviously didn't move far enough.
If Georgian forces counter-attacked....that means they were attacked first?
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Are the Georgians supposed to just lay down their weapons and do nothing while the Russian units over run their country?
Some Have it seems.....
http://www.foxnews.com/world/index.html#
Watch the Get Out vid.
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They did what?
The Russian peace keepers moved? If that's what you meant, then they obviously didn't move far enough.
If Georgian forces counter-attacked....that means they were attacked first?
Georgian pushed into capital but couldn't get through. They shelled city and attacked it again. By than 58th came to assist Osetians. At night Georgian forces shelled city (commander of 58th wounded) and attacked it again.
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Wonder how much of this action by the Russians is also a message to Pres Bush; No missiles near us!
Putin pretty much told US today; Russia or Georgia make your choice.
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Georgian pushed into capital but couldn't get through. They shelled city and attacked it again. By than 58th came to assist Osetians. At night Georgian forces shelled city (commander of 58th wounded) and attacked it again.
Wonder if the report in that Vid that Russian troops are about 12 miles from the capital of Georgia is true? If so.....it sure looks like more than just helping its citizens.
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Wonder if the report in that Vid that Russian troops are about 12 miles from the capital of Georgia is true? If so.....it sure looks like more than just helping its citizens.
I'm going to guess and say that maybe forward recon units got there. But that should give a good message to Lap-Dog that he has to accept full 6 points, and not 5.
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Hi Boroda! I posted this on another forum, but this is my comment:
If the Russians prepared for this, then they received their warning loud and clear from Saakashvili. With his long history of Western "shmoozing", it's not surprising Russia might've been a little wary or irritated with Saakashvili in an area that amounts to their 'Latin America', for lack of a better term. I doubt the Russians expected the Georgian president to actually attack South Ossetia. That would require an extreme disconnect from the political realities of the region. But, truth is stranger than fiction at times. We all make our own beds, and now Saakashvili can learn this lesson as well, though at cost in others lives and property. What I would like to know is what was Saakashvili thinking when he made his decision to attack South Ossetia? You invade a disputed territory of long history in a region of extreme importance to a powerful nation like Russia, knowing Russian peace-keepers will likely be hurt in the offensive, and expect ... what? The man's mind was obviously somewhere else.
Western reporting has been somewhat disturbing. Some reports are balanced, but others tow the typical Cold War West viewpoint. There is almost no news of the tens of thousands of Ossetian refugees that streamed into Russia, nor of the destruction and death wrought by invading Georgian forces in Tskhinvali. Incredibly, CNN reported on 'a Russian attack at Gori' using footage lifted from a Russian film crew. What's incredible is that the footage was actually of Tskhinvali after the Georgians attacked South Ossetia. When the Russian cameraman found out about this he was naturally furious and reported it.
Btw, I heard Arshavin is on strike and wants out of Zenit now. Will be interesting to see where he ends up. Poka!
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I'm going to guess and say that maybe forward recon units got there. But that should give a good message to Lap-Dog that he has to accept full 6 points, and not 5.
Forward recon units are 40 vehicles strong with heavily armed infantry on every one?
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Hi Boroda! I posted this on another forum, but this is my comment:
Western reporting has been somewhat disturbing. Some reports are balanced, but others tow the typical Cold War West viewpoint. There is almost no news of the tens of thousands of Ossetian refugees that streamed into Russia, nor of the destruction and death wrought by invading Georgian forces in Tskhinvali. Incredibly, CNN reported on 'a Russian attack at Gori' using footage lifted from a Russian film crew. What's incredible is that the footage was actually of Tskhinvali after the Georgians attacked South Ossetia. When the Russian cameraman found out about this he was naturally furious and reported it.
Btw, I heard Arshavin is on strike and wants out of Zenit now. Will be interesting to see where he ends up. Poka!
Tens of thousands?? CNN lifted footage, didn't credit it and mis-identified it? Riiiiiight.
Links please.
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Tens of thousands?? CNN lifted footage, didn't credit it and mis-identified it? Riiiiiight.
Links please.
They won't provide links for that because they can't. Sorta like Boroda's claims about Turkey backing them, he provided a link, in Russian, but failed to realize we could read it in English as well. The whole Turkey thing didn't pan out so well for him.
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US forces to deliver Georgia aid
US President Bush says military aircraft and naval forces are bringing aid to Georgia, following its conflict with Russia.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/
I wonder..is it wise to bring US and Russian military forces into close physical proximity with each other at this time?
Anyone else see how this could lead to an "accident" between the two forces and cause a situation that may not end well?
Do we REALLY want this possibility? :uhoh
Regards,
Sun
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Anyone else see how this could lead to an "accident" between the two forces and cause a situation that may not end well?
I think it's quite possible that instead of the Georgians being *vermin* or *rabid dogs* (both of which speak volumes about how *someone* views others outside his country) that a simple accident by one side or the other has caused all of this to happen.
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I think it's quite possible that instead of the Georgians being *vermin* or *rabid dogs* (both of which speak volumes about how *someone* views others outside his country) that a simple accident by one side or the other has caused all of this to happen.
A skirmish with small arms can happen as a mistake. Rolling tanks cannot.
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I think it's quite possible that instead of the Georgians being *vermin* or *rabid dogs* (both of which speak volumes about how *someone* views others outside his country) that a simple accident by one side or the other has caused all of this to happen.
Elfie, I dunno about 'accident'.. sure looks to me like the Russki's were rigging the deck. That's my opinion.. have no facts to back it beyond the stuff we've seen already... motor rifle divisions pre-positioned, etc.
Regarding the 'aid'... that may be a US exploitation of the loopholes of the Montreux Convention.. carrying humanitarian aid would be the only way we can get Warships (like a CVBG) into the Black Sea.
I hope web do... the russians will scream bloody murder; but bending the rules is a gimmick the russki's have no shame doing when it's to their benefit; and the presence of a CVBG there will give the russians a chance to chew on their own dictum: 'Choose Georgia or Russia'. They'll get to make the same choice...US or Georgia.
Choose wisely, Comrade.
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Elfie, I dunno about 'accident'.. sure looks to me like the Russki's were rigging the deck. That's my opinion.. have no facts to back it beyond the stuff we've seen already... motor rifle divisions pre-positioned, etc.
I think the Russians were just waiting for the excuse they needed.....prepositioned units, handing out passports, etc.
*PS. The accident I was referring to was between the Georgian army and the separatists.
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I think the Russians were just waiting for the excuse they needed.....prepositioned units, handing out passports, etc.
*PS. The accident I was referring to was between the Georgian army and the separatists.
It was no 'accident' the Georgian military was met with 'separatist' artillery. The russki's have yet to explain how the separatists managed to get arty, tanks and btr's. Must have 'liberated' it from the sound asleep russians... who decided to get more from the georgians. Last I heard, the russki's were emptying out the arsenals and barracks at Gori to re-supply the separatists.. seems they're running low on ammo while raping and burning uncontested villages over the last three days.
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It was no 'accident' the Georgian military was met with 'separatist' artillery. The russki's have yet to explain how the separatists managed to get arty, tanks and btr's.
I haven't seen information on that.
Links Please!
:D
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LOL Elfie. My apologies.
GEORGIA: TENSIONS FLARE OVER BREAKAWAY SOUTH OSSETIA
Giorgi Lomsadze 8/04/08
In the wake of an armed clash in Georgia’s separatist-minded territory of South Ossetia, all sides are eschewing conciliatory gestures and are instead embracing aggressive rhetoric.
Accounts of the number killed and injured vary. South Ossetia claims six civilians killed and 22 injured after Georgian forces reportedly fired on and later shelled the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali, during the night of August 1-2. Tbilisi, for its part, claims that six civilians and one policeman were injured when South Ossetian forces allegedly shelled four Georgian-controlled villages in the conflict zone.
Tbilisi initially blamed Moscow for the clash, saying Russia seeks to subvert recently intensified international conflict resolution efforts. Tskhinvali, on the other hand, charges that Tbilisi is trying to make a grab for South Ossetia. Separatist leaders vowed to retaliate. "We are not going to put up with this anymore," South Ossetia’s de facto interior minister, Mikhail Mindzayev, said in an interview with Media News. "Should another provocation take place, we will strike back at Georgian cities."
South Ossetian separatists have also pledged a general troop mobilization if another clash occurs, and warned that they will seek military assistance from the fellow breakaway region of Abkhazia, as well as from Russia’s North Caucasus area, including neighboring North Ossetia. Georgian media sources have reported a build-up of Russian military forces on North Ossetia’s border with South Ossetia. The information could not be independently confirmed.
On August 3, South Ossetia’s separatist authorities declined to meet with Georgian State Minister for Territorial Integration Temur Iakobashvili for direct talks about the situation in the conflict zone.[/b]
Timeline and article list here:
http://www.eurasianet.org/resource/georgia/articles/index.shtml (http://www.eurasianet.org/resource/georgia/articles/index.shtml)
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Elfie, I dunno about 'accident'.. sure looks to me like the Russki's were rigging the deck. That's my opinion.. have no facts to back it beyond the stuff we've seen already... motor rifle divisions pre-positioned, etc.
Regarding the 'aid'... that may be a US exploitation of the loopholes of the Montreux Convention.. carrying humanitarian aid would be the only way we can get Warships (like a CVBG) into the Black Sea.
I hope web do... the russians will scream bloody murder; but bending the rules is a gimmick the russki's have no shame doing when it's to their benefit; and the presence of a CVBG there will give the russians a chance to chew on their own dictum: 'Choose Georgia or Russia'. They'll get to make the same choice...US or Georgia.
Choose wisely, Comrade.
Hangtime, I was reading in another article (I think I posted part of it a page or two back) That stated that the Black Sea is too shallow for our CV's, but I haven't seen anything else about it.
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LOL Elfie. My apologies.
GEORGIA: TENSIONS FLARE OVER BREAKAWAY SOUTH OSSETIA
Giorgi Lomsadze 8/04/08
In the wake of an armed clash in Georgia’s separatist-minded territory of South Ossetia, all sides are eschewing conciliatory gestures and are instead embracing aggressive rhetoric.
Accounts of the number killed and injured vary. South Ossetia claims six civilians killed and 22 injured after Georgian forces reportedly fired on and later shelled the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali, during the night of August 1-2. Tbilisi, for its part, claims that six civilians and one policeman were injured when South Ossetian forces allegedly shelled four Georgian-controlled villages in the conflict zone.
Tbilisi initially blamed Moscow for the clash, saying Russia seeks to subvert recently intensified international conflict resolution efforts. Tskhinvali, on the other hand, charges that Tbilisi is trying to make a grab for South Ossetia. Separatist leaders vowed to retaliate. "We are not going to put up with this anymore," South Ossetia’s de facto interior minister, Mikhail Mindzayev, said in an interview with Media News. "Should another provocation take place, we will strike back at Georgian cities."
South Ossetian separatists have also pledged a general troop mobilization if another clash occurs, and warned that they will seek military assistance from the fellow breakaway region of Abkhazia, as well as from Russia’s North Caucasus area, including neighboring North Ossetia. Georgian media sources have reported a build-up of Russian military forces on North Ossetia’s border with South Ossetia. The information could not be independently confirmed.
On August 3, South Ossetia’s separatist authorities declined to meet with Georgian State Minister for Territorial Integration Temur Iakobashvili for direct talks about the situation in the conflict zone.[/b]
Timeline and article list here:
http://www.eurasianet.org/resource/georgia/articles/index.shtml (http://www.eurasianet.org/resource/georgia/articles/index.shtml)
Very interesting information there.
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Hangtime, I was reading in another article (I think I posted part of it a page or two back) That stated that the Black Sea is too shallow for our CV's, but I haven't seen anything else about it.
Frode... thanks. I spotted that and did some checking... the info is ummmm... questionable. Here's a link with a bit better topography.:
http://enrin.grida.no/htmls/georgia/soegeor/english/blacksea/blacksea.htm (http://enrin.grida.no/htmls/georgia/soegeor/english/blacksea/blacksea.htm)
The Bosphorus is as little as 70 metres deep and 700 metres wide but the depth of the Black Sea itself, exceeds two kilometres in places.
(http://enrin.grida.no/htmls/georgia/soegeor/images/blacksea/seabsep1.gif)
The Turks and Russki's operate subs, the russki's have also operated both their CV's and VLCC tankers in there. It's navigable area is about 5 times as large as the Arabian Sea or Persian Gulf.
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A link to the CNN claim: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksOCJsODaw8
A reference to Ossetian refugees: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/12/georgia.russia
Easy to find these things on the net, guys, but you knew that. As for what's respectable, that's always dependent on your own opinion. It's just that maybe FOX or CNN might not have anything on it. Anywho, enjoy Life, and don't get too buried in the dogma. People are just people for the most part, it's the dogma that does us all in.
Hasta luego, Amigos.
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It may not be the sea itself, Hangtime...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Black_Sea_map.png)
I would believe that trying to get through Both the Dardenelles and the Bosporous would be hazardous and time consuming, to say the least. Any advance warning given to the Russian Black Sea fleet at all, and all they would really have to do is mine those straits'.
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Anywho, enjoy Life, and don't get too buried in the dogma. People are just people for the most part, it's the dogma that does us all in.
Hasta luego, Amigos.
My Karma ran over your dogma.
Sorry, Ma. ;)
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My Karma ran over your dogma.
Sorry, Ma. ;)
Hey, dude. I still keep an account on AH, just haven't played in ages. Don't make me smoke your Stang in my Lavochka ;)
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A link to the CNN claim: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksOCJsODaw8
This is a CNN clip, but it's been ripped off by Russia Today, redubbed with their own commentary. Priceless propaganda work.
A reference to Ossetian refugees: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/12/georgia.russia
We KNEW their were refugees; There are over 3 times' as many Georgians' headed the other way. There wouldn't have been any but for oppurtunistic Russian land-grabbing aggression. They should have kept a lid on the Ossetian' artillery, if they didn't wish to actually invade, that is. I guess that by now, though, hiding their true intentions is getting rather redundant.
Easy to find these things on the net, guys, but you knew that. As for what's respectable, that's always dependent on your own opinion. It's just that maybe FOX or CNN might not have anything on it. Anywho, enjoy Life, and don't get too buried in the dogma. People are just people for the most part, it's the dogma that does us all in.
Hasta luego, Amigos.
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It may not be the sea itself, Hangtime...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Black_Sea_map.png)
I would believe that trying to get through Both the Dardenelles and the Bosporous would be hazardous and time consuming, to say the least. Any advance warning given to the Russian Black Sea fleet at all, and all they would really have to do is mine those straits'.
Holy moly... gotta be the most heavily traveled waterway in the world... more shipping goes through there than the canal. Besides...
(http://gcaptain.com/maritime/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/hospital-ship.jpg)
Would you send one of these up there un-escorted? That would be madness!!!
I mean, nobody would be dumb enough to attack a hospital ship being escorted by the Ronald Reagan ...
(http://www.battle-fleet.com/pw/his/air-carrier/uss-ronald-reagan.jpg)
LOL... think of the eyeballs popping on putin when he hears we're sending the REAGAN... LOL!
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LOL... think of the eyeballs popping on putin when he hears we're sending the REAGAN... LOL!
Trying to picture that......I keep laughing so hard I never get past the veins straining to burst on his forehead. :rofl
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Trying to picture that......I keep laughing so hard I never get past the veins straining to burst on his forehead. :rofl
Why would Russia care?
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Why would Russia care?
Oh, no reason. No reason at all.
:D
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Why would Russia care?
Georgia's air force, according to global security, has 3 SU 25's and 5 SU 25K's that's it for fighters, but they do have 35 helicopters, 9 cargo and 10 trainers.
The USSRR carries 85 aircraft.
Anyone in tactical or strategic planning for Russia who does not take notice is derelict in duty.
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of course the real joke of it all is... china won't finance it. :D
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Oh, no reason. No reason at all.
:D
:rofl
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of course the real joke of it all is... china won't finance it. :D
"When you borrow $100,000 from the bank, the bank owns you. When you borrow $100,000,000, you own the bank." ---Donald Trump
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Russia Blinks
Russia 'begins Georgia handover', Russian troops are handing over control of the area around the town of Gori to Georgian forces, officials say.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7560100.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7560100.stm)
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LOL... think of the eyeballs popping on putin when he hears we're sending the REAGAN... LOL!
One torpedo. It doesn't even need to hit it.
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Russia Blinks
Russia 'begins Georgia handover', Russian troops are handing over control of the area around the town of Gori to Georgian forces, officials say.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7560100.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7560100.stm)
Hopefully, this isn't another one of their roadkill excuses' to stall for time, before a renewed offensive.
...Just watch, they're digging in for the arrival of U.S. combat troops.
There's no real reason for them to stay. They can get the Hell out of georgia tonight.
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One torpedo. It doesn't even need to hit it.
As shallow as that water is, I'd hate to be a sub driver trying to sneak up on a U.S. Carrier battle group in those waters.
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The consequences for such an act...
Can you see condi doing the lil head duck and hand wave?
(http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/040407/040407_condi_mitchell_hmed_5a.hmedium.jpg)
"oh, no, you did-int..."
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I know it's wakypedia, but it's all I can come up with at short notice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VA-111_Shkval
These can be armed with a small nuke that will pretty much vaporise most of the TG without even having to actually hit anything.
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a nuke? Why wait until something is in the Black Sea? hell they have ICBM's that can hit stuff from 8500 miles away.
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I know it's wakypedia, but it's all I can come up with at short notice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VA-111_Shkval
These can be armed with a small nuke that will pretty much vaporise most of the TG without even having to actually hit anything.
Tssk, tsssk. You said nuke...
..perish the thought.
Really. not even putin the magnificent, slayer of grozny, redeemer of the rodina and master of all the russias would not be so stupid.
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Yeah but an ICBM is a bit of overkill when a nuke tipped torp can still do the job from 7500 yards+ with minimal footprint and much less collateral damage.
Oh and I agree they probably wouldn't be that stupid. A couple of well placed conventionally armed ones will be just as effective, they travel much to fast for conventional anti torpedo countermeasures to intercept.
I was simply pointing out that your massive TG's are not as invulnerable as you guys seem to think they are.
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I was simply pointing out that your massive TG's are not as invulnerable as you guys seem to think they are.
Ahh.. but you see; we do know they are vulnerable. We also know that any overt act of aggression against a US Warship operating in international waters... no less a US Warship with 3,000 Americans on it, would be viewed as an act of open war.
It's presence is in effect, both a 'balance of power' move in the area AND a 'double-dog dare yah' signal to russia that says we unequivocally support Georgian Sovereignty... and we won't have to fire a shot to make the point.. just have her make an invited port call at Poti. :D
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Rouge = red in french, Rogue = stray..
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Rouge = red in french, Rogue = stray..
I thought Rogue was a river...
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The consequences for such an act...
Can you see condi doing the lil head duck and hand wave?
(http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/040407/040407_condi_mitchell_hmed_5a.hmedium.jpg)
"oh, no, you did-int..."
:rofl
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It's presence is in effect, both a 'balance of power' move in the area AND a 'double-dog dare yah'[/b[ signal to russia that says we unequivocally support Georgian Sovereignty... and we won't have to fire a shot to make the point.. just have her make an invited port call at Poti. Big Grin
I don't know about that....I think it's more of a jump right to the uber Triple Dog Dare myself. :devil
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Yeah but an ICBM is a bit of overkill when a nuke tipped torp can still do the job from 7500 yards+ with minimal footprint and much less collateral damage.
Oh and I agree they probably wouldn't be that stupid. A couple of well placed conventionally armed ones will be just as effective, they travel much to fast for conventional anti torpedo countermeasures to intercept.
I was simply pointing out that your massive TG's are not as invulnerable as you guys seem to think they are.
I'll agree with you here, SD-Insofar as I myself know, no U.S. CVBG has ever had to do anything more than fly off airstrikes' and air interdiction in coastal countries. I don't think they've ever had to actually fight either surface/sub-surface threats' in any of the conflicts' the U.S. has been in since 1945.
But that doesn't mean they don't know how.
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I haven't been reading this thread, but 50 pages in 1 week, that has to be some kind of record for "The O' Club".
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I haven't been reading this thread, but 50 pages in 1 week, that has to be some kind of record for "The O' Club".
It's only 30 pages so far. :rock
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What I found intriguing was the amount of what I'd see as "old kit" being used by the russians, looked like some old hinds, even Tu-22s? And it sounds like the georgians knocked down a few Su-25's.
So even though the russians rolled through I wouldn't say it was a clean victory.
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What I found intriguing was the amount of what I'd see as "old kit" being used by the russians, looked like some old hinds, even Tu-22s? And it sounds like the georgians knocked down a few Su-25's.
So even though the russians rolled through I wouldn't say it was a clean victory.
The b52 and A10s are also old but still excellent. That is also the case with the TU-22 and SU25s. The former is still in production.
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It's only 30 pages so far. :rock
Take a closer look, it's 50. Might need some glasses there. :D
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PWNT!
lets see how long it takes before they push back again.
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Take a closer look, it's 50. Might need some glasses there. :D
Depends on your settings. I like speed reading and seeing everything at once.. 8 pages on my end.
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Some news just said Russian Forces are now withdrawing out of Geogrian Cities.
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Depends on your settings. I like speed reading and seeing everything at once.. 8 pages on my end.
Ahh that would explain it. Well then on the standard setting it's 50.
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It is. Just as standard setting for American Citizens is :noid
Russia actually did the right thing here. I know it's hard for westerners to accept, but for once a large power interceded decisively and swiftly without months or playing footsy and hundreds of warnings.
The USA would have sent a strongly worded letter followed by months of negotiations finally ending up in a long drawn out military action once their opponent had been given ample time to prepare for the onslaught.
Russia went in, got the job done, followed up with a strong warning and now it looks like they are going home, mission accomplished. Pipeline UNMOLESTED.
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Yea, Russia is pretty much right down to it. Thats what I dont like about America (Dont get me wrong, most people are great, but sadly, the minority ALWAYS get their way and the majority are ALWAYS left out in the Dust in America), they always have to be politically correct, which means that it makes the job harder, gets more innocent people killed, and only brings more hate among the stupid people.
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It is. Just as standard setting for American Citizens is :noid
Russia actually did the right thing here. I know it's hard for westerners to accept, but for once a large power interceded decisively and swiftly without months or playing footsy and hundreds of warnings.
The USA would have sent a strongly worded letter followed by months of negotiations finally ending up in a long drawn out military action once their opponent had been given ample time to prepare for the onslaught.
Russia went in, got the job done, followed up with a strong warning and now it looks like they are going home, mission accomplished. Pipeline UNMOLESTED.
I'm sure you completely supported Reagan's decision to crush Grenada or G H W Bush's decision to invade Panama and arrest Noriega.
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Somebody here said that China is an ally of Russia. When did that happen? China is America's tightest ally, and then Saudi Arabia. China finances America and Saudi Arabia fuels America and the dollar.
To think that nations allign because of similar state methodologies and ideologies is a mistake. That is anthropomorphizing, you need to use a different set of psychometrics. Look how ideologically different the US, PRC and Saudi Arabia are. Saudia Arabia is the clone mother of the taliban, and I don't really need to say anything about china, yet we'd go to war for saudi arabia and china would loan us the money to do it. And the UK would help provide the meat and machines. America was a "staunch ally" of the previous georgian government which the current georgian government revolted against. America was an ardent ally of Georgia even when we knew that Sharvenadze rigged and stole elections.
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I just stumbled into this...
(http://users.skynet.be/fa018426/Georgia.jpg)
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It is. Just as standard setting for American Citizens is :noid
Russia actually did the right thing here. I know it's hard for westerners to accept, but for once a large power interceded decisively and swiftly without months or playing footsy and hundreds of warnings.
The USA would have sent a strongly worded letter followed by months of negotiations finally ending up in a long drawn out military action once their opponent had been given ample time to prepare for the onslaught.
Russia went in, got the job done, followed up with a strong warning and now it looks like they are going home, mission accomplished. Pipeline UNMOLESTED.
If only that were true. I suspect it isn't and that Russia does not intend to leave Georgia until a puppet government is in place. We shall see.
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Russia actually did the right thing here. I know it's hard for westerners to accept, but for once a large power interceded decisively and swiftly without months or playing footsy and hundreds of warnings...Russia went in, got the job done, followed up with a strong warning and now it looks like they are going home, mission accomplished.
Hmmm...lets see. Russia has had "peacekeepers" in Georgia since the 90's. They have provided support and training to the separatists in both provinces since the early '90's. Kosovo declares independence last month, and a few weeks later, separatists in both provinces instigate an incursion by Georgia. This is Russia's play--the West recognizes Kosovo, the Russians will recognize the Georgian provinces as nations. All of this has been in an attempt to have these two provinces break off from Georgia, and eventually rejoin Russia. I'm not going to make a judgement on the Russians here about right and wrong--especially given the ethnic tensions that exist in these transition states, but it certainly wasn't something the Russians decided to get involved with two weeks ago. And apparently, they're not going home either...
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Oh, no reason. No reason at all.
:D
If your mouth is salivating from thinking about direct confrontation between Russian and American troop, there is a nice place for you where people in white overalls wipe your butt and give you electroshocks.
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The only one dripping saliva over their bayonet is Boroda.
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it will not be between russia and america, it will be between russia and the world.
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Personally, I believe this discussion would be best served if everyone dropped the saber-rattling.
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"When you borrow $100,000 from the bank, the bank owns you. When you borrow $100,000,000, you own the bank." ---Donald Trump
the irony of it all.. and trump's corporations have filed for bankruptcy how many time. :rofl
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If your mouth is salivating from thinking about direct confrontation between Russian and American troop, there is a nice place for you where people in white overalls wipe your butt and give you electroshocks.
Nope... like most of the folks that come from a different culture; 'you missed it'.
Ronald Reagan was the guy we give credit to for finally winning the cold war and forcing what we call the collapse of the 'evil empire'. The feeling ran so deep that a most unusual honor was bestowed upon him... while he was still alive, we named America's most formidable aircraft carrier, then building, after him and his wife commissioned her.
Mr Putin is alleged to have considered the loss of the soviet empire as the greatest mistake of the 20th century.
I was having a laugh over Putin having to deal with the irony of having Reagan, just one more time, crush a Russian attempt at Empire. Which is pretty much what we built her and her 10 sisters for to begin with.
Call it a private joke. You may return to celebrating the heroic defeat of Georgia by the Glorious Soldat of the New and Improved, Kinder, Gentler, Russian Empire.
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the irony of it all.. and trump's corporations have filed for bankruptcy how many time. :rofl
his corporations may have filed , but trump is still a rich man. It has to do with how you control your assets.
I only remember his casino losing money, he sold controlling interest in it to keep it open.
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http://www.telekritika.ua/media-suspilstvo/view/2008-08-13/40007
Here's, in Russian, report of Ukranian journalist of what happened in Osetia.
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Russia now says "Forget" Georgia's territorial integrity. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080814/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia
We need to smack them down hard.
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Nope... like most of the folks that come from a different culture; 'you missed it'.
Ronald Reagan was the guy we give credit to for finally winning the cold war and forcing what we call the collapse of the 'evil empire'. The feeling ran so deep that a most unusual honor was bestowed upon him... while he was still alive, we named America's most formidable aircraft carrier, then building, after him and his wife commissioned her.
Mr Putin is alleged to have considered the loss of the soviet empire as the greatest mistake of the 20th century.
I was having a laugh over Putin having to deal with the irony of having Reagan, just one more time, crush a Russian attempt at Empire. Which is pretty much what we built her and her 10 sisters for to begin with.
Call it a private joke. You may return to celebrating the heroic defeat of Georgia by the Glorious Soldat of the New and Improved, Kinder, Gentler, Russian Empire.
Reagan, however, would have answered this whole thing quite a bit differently-As a matter of fact, American troops would probably have been in there second or third day of combat already, Or the CVBG's would have arrived and taken up station off of Poti.
And, with this handling of the Georgian crisis, It does do one thing to Bush. It discredits him. Not just to the world, but to his own people, here at home. If he would have played the ball harder here, he would have been able to shrug off some of the critisism of how Iraq's been handled. Instead, when faced with a clear-cut provocation, involving a direct attack/invasion of an Allied nation, He just stood aside. Now, how do the rest of the nation's of the world feel? Now, how do you get support for your "war on terror"?
It looks' like given time for one more mask up before his terms' up, he'll manage it... :rolleyes:
I just can't possibly put any more stock in cockamamie "Well, look at what a democrat woulda done..." arguments. This is potentially the worst diplomatic failure in U.S. history. This is a republican president that hung an allied nation out to dry.
I'll go so far as to say that I don't know what Obama's stance would have been. But unfortunately, we've seen the Neo-con one.
Shit, I'm gonna cast TWO votes for Ron Paul, If I legally can...
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Reagan, however, would have answered this whole thing quite a bit differently-As a matter of fact, American troops would probably have been in there second or third day of combat already, Or the CVBG's would have arrived and taken up station off of Poti.
And, with this handling of the Georgian crisis, It does do one thing to Bush. It discredits him. Not just to the world, but to his own people, here at home. If he would have played the ball harder here, he would have been able to shrug off some of the critisism of how Iraq's been handled. Instead, when faced with a clear-cut provocation, involving a direct attack/invasion of an Allied nation, He just stood aside. Now, how do the rest of the nation's of the world feel? Now, how do you get support for your "war on terror"?
It looks' like given time for one more mask up before his terms' up, he'll manage it... :rolleyes:
That's a real stretch. Bush is playing this quite well imo. Sending in observers and support under the guise of humanitarian aid is exactly the right response to Russia's aggression.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7561586.stm
So far, everything has gone as I more or less expected from Russia. This type of story is as old as the region. A couple thousand years ago, Armenia used to be the burr in Parthia's behind, playing off Roman friendship as a means of acquiring some local power for itself. I think Saakashvili pretty much knew what he's been doing for years and probably got a little impatient with an 'appropriate' response from the West to his political play. I'm sure the fickleness of domestic politics likely influenced Saakashvili as well. The Russians were of course more than aware of what was about, then had the whole affair 'gifted' into their lap with Saakashvili's attack. They naturally seized it. The USA, recognizing equally as quickly how badly their Georgian 'ally' just blew it, had to scream loud and fast and brash to try and effect some measure of damage control to an area long recognized in Russia's deepest interests. With the unilateral actions of the USA in their invasion of Iraq, The Russians have a precedent to present especially given the proximity of these events to their borders. Basically, there's going to be a lot of ruffled red, white and blue feathers but little else, because Saakashvili just gifted Russia two of its provinces. The Georgian is now an embarrassment to the USA in political circles, no matter the rhetoric flying back and forth.
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That's a real stretch. Bush is playing this quite well imo. Sending in observers and support under the guise of humanitarian aid is exactly the right response to Russia's aggression.
I hate to tell you this Iron, but the real response would have been getting U.S. military forces in-theatre, and letting Putin know that this wasn't gonna be a simple land grab, and that the stakes' were now much higher. The way we acted, we virtually gave him free reign to do whatever he wished.
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You do not move 2 divisions and 1200+ tanks and implement a naval blockade overnight (literally) The pi9eces were put in place months in advance, russians were handing out russian passports in the street... all of this was staged.... plus south ossetia IS part of Georgia! The russians were not attacked, they were invaders who were being repelled.
Putin has been picking this fight for ages.
The Georgians attacked about like The poles actually attacked the German radio station... South Ossetia is a province of Georgia, The russians were giving away citizenship to anyone who walked up and signed and declared themselves to be russian citizens. This territory belongs to Georgia, no ifs ands or buts...
Do some research on the New government of Georgia, the old one was corrupt but these guys are SERIOUSLY pro-western, listen to this, it is in 3 parts... http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=C0RTGtwW_y0
Putin is ex KGB... Although he is no longer officially in charge, he and his henchmen are still pulling all of the strings.
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http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ
12 Year Old Girl Tells the Truth on Fox News about Georgia. Fox News even had to cut them off right in the middle of the account of Georgian aggression even though they had just come from a commercial break 2 minutes prior to that.
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She probably believes that the Jonas brothers are musical geniuses as well.
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I hate to tell you this Iron, but the real response would have been getting U.S. military forces in-theatre, and letting Putin know that this wasn't gonna be a simple land grab, and that the stakes' were now much higher. The way we acted, we virtually gave him free reign to do whatever he wished.
Make no mistake, our troops providing humanitarian aid there are a defense against Russia invading Georgia's capital. Any attack there with our people there will be considered an attack on the United States.
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Make no mistake, our troops providing humanitarian aid there are a defense against Russia invading Georgia's capital. Any attack there with our people there will be considered an attack on the United States.
So the us and russia will then be at war?
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Take a closer look, it's 50. Might need some glasses there. :D
Was showing as 30 for me, maybe you show fewer posts per page?
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So the us and russia will then be at war?
That is my opinion, that is why we sent "aid".
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Make no mistake, our troops providing humanitarian aid there are a defense against Russia invading Georgia's capital. Any attack there with our people there will be considered an attack on the United States.
The US and USSR aren't going to war over this. There will and should be some seriously hard-line diplomacy that occurs from both sides.
I fail to see how Georgia's President "gifted" those two provinces away by his actions.
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The US and USSR aren't going to war over this. There will and should be some seriously hard-line diplomacy that occurs from both sides.
I fail to see how Georgia's President "gifted" those two provinces away by his actions.
I agree that Russia isn't likely to attempt an assault on the Georgian capitol with US troops there. The fallout from all this remains to be seen. Russia isn't the only country playing this game, there will be counter moves.
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http://www.telekritika.ua/media-suspilstvo/view/2008-08-13/40007
Here's, in Russian, report of Ukranian journalist of what happened in Osetia.
1) That does us no good, we can't read Russian.
2) Russian sources don't qualify because they aren't neutral.
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That is my opinion, that is why we sent "aid".
do you fully grasp what that means?
a war between russia and the us?
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1) That does us no good, we can't read Russian.
2) Russian sources don't qualify because they aren't neutral.
Just because I post things, it doesn't make source "Russian" ....read more carefully....
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Missle deal signed...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7561926.stm
:salute
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Missle deal signed...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7561926.stm
:salute
stupid deal
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Just because I post things, it doesn't make source "Russian" ....read more carefully....
My first point still stands, we can't read it anyways. You know this, so what is the point of posting it?
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stupid deal
Why is it a stupid deal to be able to shoot down incoming missiles?
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http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ
12 Year Old Girl Tells the Truth on Fox News about Georgia. Fox News even had to cut them off right in the middle of the account of Georgian aggression even though they had just come from a commercial break 2 minutes prior to that.
No chance whatsoever that the folks that screen those interviewed were lied to so they could go on TV and trumpet their political views. It happens quite frequently. I'm still trying to find an unpartial source that describes how this initial Georgian incursion began...Right now, I don't even think that is very clear...
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Why is it a stupid deal to be able to shoot down incoming missiles?
It provokes the russians and is starting a new arms race. This has been well discussed here before.
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It provokes the russians and is starting a new arms race. This has been well discussed here before.
Not unlike the introduction of Pershing Missiles into Western Europe back in the 80's. Highly unpopular, and yet, proved to be effective. But, ultimately, doesn't bear upon the issue at hand.
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do you fully grasp what that means?
a war between russia and the us?
Nils, we're far more anti-bush here than you might think; everything the monkey does is suspect... and I've been wondering about bush's motives in a number of foreign confrontations as of late.. there's been murmurs amounting to 'Bush won't leave office... some 'crisis' in the closing days of his presidency will 'force' him to cancel the elections'...
...this could be it. :noid
The coming days are worrisome, this BS little tussle in Georgia could easily be manipulated into something entirely more menacing. We wonder if putin understands just how much fire he's fooling with?
Meanwhile, we watch, comment, wait... and we remain hopeful (but not convinced) this will cool down to the usual level of animosity between east and west that we are used to. If I was a european, I'd be mighty active trying to convince the russki's "you REALLY don't wanna mess with that nutjob in the white house.."
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It provokes the russians and is starting a new arms race. This has been well discussed here before.
Thats like saying deploying a brand new aircraft is provoking the Russians. The missiles are for defense only, the Russians are only being provoked because they want to be provoked.
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Not unlike the introduction of Pershing Missiles into Western Europe back in the 80's. Highly unpopular, and yet, proved to be effective. But, ultimately, doesn't bear upon the issue at hand.
Same yet different. In the 80s it was a cold war going and nato buildt up against the soviet union and vice versa.
After the collapse of the soviet union, Nato has continued to grow and is getting closer to russia every year. Imagine how the US would feel if Soviet had won the cold war and most of your surrounding neighbours were getting inducted into the Soviet union by the year. Placing missile shields and whatnot closer and closer. Would you be getting desperate and feel squeezed more and more or just shrug it off with a smile?
My personal opinion after beeing a Nato advocate my entire life is that Nato should have been disbanded after the collapse of the Soviet union. I may be alone in feeling this here but i dont mind that :)
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Georgian Reporter Tamara Urushadze shot by sniper during during live coverage.
(http://gfx.aftonbladet.se/multimedia/archive/00708/skjuten-i-direkts_n_708697w.jpg)
Video link : http://www.aftonbladet.se/webbtv/nyheter/utrikes/article3103603.ab
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Thats like saying deploying a brand new aircraft is provoking the Russians. The missiles are for defense only, the Russians are only being provoked because they want to be provoked.
I remember when I 'provoked' my neighbor by putting up a fence.... he escalated by chopping off the half of the tree overhanging his yard. I countered by seducing his wife... she eventually sued for a divorce and the guy moved out.
Game over. ;)
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Thats like saying deploying a brand new aircraft is provoking the Russians. The missiles are for defense only, the Russians are only being provoked because they want to be provoked.
Not so. If they think the shield will upset the balance and prevent some of the nukes they have to reach the US they will build more and perhaps deploy them elsewere. You can already see it with the Beluga? missile that they claim can avoid beeing shot down. Builiding this expencive and provocative sheild to defend from a select few rouge states that may get nukes and ballistic missiles with the range in the future is dumb imo. There are far better and cheaper ways for them to slip one by in lets say a suitcase, on a boat or whatnot.
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Same yet different. In the 80s it was a cold war going and nato buildt up against the soviet union and vice versa.
After the collapse of the soviet union, Nato has continued to grow and is getting closer to russia every year. Imagine how the US would feel if Soviet had won the cold war and most of your surrounding neighbours were getting inducted into the Soviet union by the year. Placing missile shields and whatnot closer and closer. Would you be getting desperate and feel squeezed more and more or just shrug it off with a smile?
My personal opinion after beeing a Nato advocate my entire life is that Nato should have been disbanded after the collapse of the Soviet union. I may be alone in feeling this here but i dont mind that :)
Jeeze, Nils; NATO is a threat ONLY to aggression... if Russia is not aggressive, why should they be concerned? What.. they're afraid of a NATO first strike? Laughable.
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Georgian Reporter Tamara Urushadze shot by sniper during during live coverage.
(http://gfx.aftonbladet.se/multimedia/archive/00708/skjuten-i-direkts_n_708697w.jpg)
Video link : http://www.aftonbladet.se/webbtv/nyheter/utrikes/article3103603.ab
what side did the shooting?
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Found this timeline on the Australian Broadcasting Corporation News website: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/08/10/2330218.htm
July 4: South Ossetia orders a "general mobilisation" of its forces and threatens to use heavy weapons against Georgia after two people are killed in intense shelling. Russia accuses Georgia of an "act of aggression".
July 9-10: US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice visits Georgia and calls for an end to violence in Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Russia admits its planes have flown over South Ossetia to avoid "bloodshed".
August 1: Six people are killed in South Ossetia by fire from Georgian positions, according to the government of the rebel region. Tbilisi (Georgia's capital) says the Ossetians were the first to fire.
August 3: Russia warns South Ossetia is close to a "large-scale" military conflict, and that Georgian manoeuvres are undermining hopes of peace.
August 4: South Ossetia evacuates hundreds of children to Russia following clashes. Georgia accuses the rebels of creating "an illusion of war".
August 5: A top Russian diplomat says Moscow will not just stand by, but will defend Russian citizens in South Ossetia in the event of a conflict.
August 6: Georgia and South Ossetia accuse each other of having opened fire on villages in the region.
August 7: Georgia says Georgian and South Ossetian officials agree to hold direct talks for the first time in a decade after clashes leave around 10 dead.
August 8: Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili says most of South Ossetia has been "liberated" in an overnight offensive.
Russia sends reinforcements into the territory, saying Georgian attacks killed more than 10 of its peacekeepers.
Tense history
The two countries have a history of hostility and conflict.
November 1989 South Ossetia declares autonomy from the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic, triggering three months of fighting.
December 1990 Georgia and South Ossetia begin a new armed conflict which lasts until 1992.
1991: The Soviet Union collapses and Georgia, which was absorbed into the Russian empire in the 19th century, then taken over by the Soviet Bolsheviks in the next century, becomes independent.
1992-4: Minority ethnic groups in the provinces of South Ossetia and Abkhazia fight separatist wars to end Georgian rule, resulting in thousands of deaths. Both rebel statelets have significant Russian financial and political backing, but have not been recognised by any foreign government and officially remain part of Georgia.
November 1993 South Ossetia drafts its own constitution.
1994: Under a shaky ceasefire agreement, a mainly Russian peacekeeping force is deployed in Abkhazia. Russian troops also lead a joint peacekeeping force in South Ossetia.
November 1996 South Ossetia elects its first president.
2000: Russia's new president, Vladimir Putin, imposes visa requirements on Georgians going to Russia, unlike citizens from other countries in the 12-member Commonwealth of Independent States.
2002: After repeated accusations by Russia that Georgia is sheltering Chechen rebels, an air raid takes place on the Pankisi Gorge just inside Georgia. Russia denies being behind the attack, which killed one person.
Georgia applies to join the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO), angering Russia. Georgia also becomes a key US ally after agreeing to host oil and gas pipelines from the Caspian Sea to Turkey, avoiding Russia.
2003: The peaceful "Rose Revolution" ousts Georgian president Eduard Shevarnadze and brings to power Mikheil Saakashvili, who immediately launches a strongly pro-Western policy aiming at NATO membership and economic and governmental reforms.
2005: Despite growing tensions with Mr Saakashvili's government, Moscow agrees to remove Soviet-era military bases from Georgian territory by the end of 2008.
2006: Georgia is briefly left with severe gas shortages after a pipeline explosion inside Russia destroys a key export route. Those behind the bombing are never discovered.
Georgia arrests four Russian military personnel on spying charges. Moscow responds with sweeping economic sanctions, cutting all travel links, deporting hundreds of ethnic-Georgians from Russia, and stopping Georgian imports.
November 2006 South Ossetia overwhelmingly endorses its split with Tbilisi in a referendum. Georgia's prime minister says this is part of a Russian campaign to stoke a war.
April 2007 Georgia's parliament approves a law to create a temporary administration in South Ossetia, raising tension with Russia.
June 2007 South Ossetian separatists say Georgia attacked Tskhinvali with mortar and sniper fire. Tbilisi denies this.
October 2007 Talks hosted by the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe between Georgia and South Ossetia break down.
March 2008 South Ossetia asks the world to recognise its independence from Georgia following the West's support for Kosovo's secession from Serbia.
March 2008 Georgia's bid to join NATO, though unsuccessful, prompts Russia's parliament to urge the Kremlin to recognise the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.
April 2008 South Ossetia rejects a Georgian power-sharing deal, insists on full independence.
Looks like a fairly complex and muddled situation.
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what side did the shooting?
They dont know yet.
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if there is war it will not be between USA and russia, it will be between russia and NATO and the former slave states in eastern europe, there is no love for russia in europe, and then there is china looking at the russian resources in siberia.
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Georgian Reporter Tamara Urushadze shot by sniper during during live coverage.
(http://gfx.aftonbladet.se/multimedia/archive/00708/skjuten-i-direkts_n_708697w.jpg)
Video link : http://www.aftonbladet.se/webbtv/nyheter/utrikes/article3103603.ab
Perhaps this explains the poor media coverage of this whole situation... :uhoh
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Jeeze, Nils; NATO is a threat ONLY to aggression... if Russia is not aggressive, why should they be concerned? What.. they're afraid of a NATO first strike? Laughable.
You are seeing it from your side of the fence. Imagine if the map was red all around the US and not blue. The soviet union was also a threat only to aggression. Perhaps laughable to you.
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Not so. If they think the shield will upset the balance and prevent some of the nukes they have to reach the US they will build more and perhaps deploy them elsewere. You can already see it with the Beluga? missile that they claim can avoid beeing shot down. Builiding this expencive and provocative sheild to defend from a select few rouge states that may get nukes and ballistic missiles with the range in the future is dumb imo. There are far better and cheaper ways for them to slip one by in lets say a suitcase, on a boat or whatnot.
Why does a defensive system upset the balance of power unless Russia has plans to use nukes? The missiles being stationed in Eastern Europe can't shoot down missiles launched from Russia. As I recall from an article I read when this was being discussed earlier, the missile defense missiles have to be launched during certain flight phases of the enemy missiles in order to be effective. The missiles stationed in Europe won't be able to shoot down missiles launched from Russia.
That Russian missile you are talking about, is I believe the Topol-7. The development of the Topol-7 began in the late '80's. The arms race never ended, it may have slowed down for awhile, but it certainly is not new.
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I saw additional footage.. A georgian news crew filming a Russian armor column, up walks a separatist squad which proceeds to rob the Georgians at gunpoint. The passing russians do nothing. The camera man tried to get way... you could hear shots fired, the camera falls to the ground.
More and more of this coverage shows russian 'peacekeepers' doing nothing to curb the utter destruction, rape, robbery, murder and looting being conducted by 'osset' units in georgian towns and villages.
Typical Russian operation.
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I remember when I 'provoked' my neighbor by putting up a fence.... he escalated by chopping off the half of the tree overhanging his yard. I countered by seducing his wife... she eventually sued for a divorce and the guy moved out.
Game over. ;)
While I don't agree with seducing the guys wife, the way you put it is certainly funny. :lol
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The soviet union was also a threat only to aggression. Perhaps laughable to you.
Extremely.
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what side did the shooting?
I would hazard a guess and say it wasn't the Georgians......
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While I don't agree with seducing the guys wife, the way you put it is certainly funny. :lol
She'd been making it clear for years she was 'available'... I just obliged her. We both knew who we were really screwing. :D
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I saw additional footage.. A georgian news crew filming a Russian armor column, up walks a separatist squad which proceeds to rob the Georgians at gunpoint. The passing russians do nothing. The camera man tried to get way... you could hear shots fired, the camera falls to the ground.
More and more of this coverage shows russian 'peacekeepers' doing nothing to curb the utter destruction, rape, robbery, murder and looting being conducted by 'osset' units in georgian towns and villages.
Typical Russian operation.
Source? I can post stuff what Georgian did to Osetian....it involved a knife and civilians.
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do you fully grasp what that means?
a war between russia and the us?
Being born in the early 1950's and having spent from 1973 to 1995 in the US military, yeah, I think I know what it means. Do you suppose I want war? Of course not. Do you suppose I'm willing to do anything to avoid it? Think again.
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The soviet union was also a threat only to aggression. Perhaps laughable to you.
Tell that to the Czechs in 1968, the Hungarians in 1956, the Afghans.....
Somehow I doubt those people would be laughing.
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She'd been making it clear for years she was 'available'... I just obliged her. We both knew who we were really screwing. :D
:lol
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Just saw fox news - here we have regular, humiliated and undisciplined Georgian troops firing on our crew.
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Just saw fox news - here we have regular, humiliated and undisciplined Georgian troops firing on our crew.
That was in a very timely fashion you saw it. Let me know when you have a link to the story or a video link.
American reporters being shot at, that will make foxnews.com for sure, and they surely will be showing reruns of that one all night long.
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That was in a very timely fashion you saw it. Let me know when you have a link to the story or a video link.
Thats kinda what I was thinking. ;)
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no no, they are brave determined freedom fighters fighting a great patriotic war against a ruthless invader.
you need to read russian history.
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I'm not seeing anything on Fox News about Georgian troops firing on news crews.
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I'm not seeing anything on Fox News about Georgian troops firing on news crews.
Maybe Fox in Russia is showing them.. :t
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http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c2e_1218738752
Here's turkish crew getting shotup ...no idea by whom. (those comments most of time are wrong)
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That was in a very timely fashion you saw it. Let me know when you have a link to the story or a video link.
American reporters being shot at, that will make foxnews.com for sure, and they surely will be showing reruns of that one all night long.
Already seen it. Linked from here: http://patdollard.com/2008/08/fncs-steve-harrigan-georgian-forces-angry-frustrated-and-in-disarray/
and Russian, I'll see your civilians & knife and raise you a russian helicopter gunship attack against a hospital.
Conflict in Eastern Europe automatically means a round of atrocities by every party involved.
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I'm not seeing anything on Fox News about Georgian troops firing on news crews.
You're not looking hard enough. Here it is
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=170_1218723201
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Source? I can post stuff what Georgian did to Osetian....it involved a knife and civilians.
Saw it on CNN about 2:30 eastern this afternoon... ran as a companion piece to the georgian hottie gettin nipped on the arm while on the air. No link yet. Also saw a report on another russian column in the west heading in the wrong direction for a withdrawl a few minutes ago.
... all under the 'breaking news' drama music.
*sigh*
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Saw it on CNN about 2:30 eastern this afternoon... ran as a companion piece to the georgian hottie gettin nipped on the arm while on the air. No link yet. Also saw a report on another russian column in the west heading in the wrong direction for a withdrawl a few minutes ago.
... all under the 'breaking news' drama music.
*sigh*
Is it same video that has been playing for past two days? Because I'm also watching CNN and FOX ...fox reporting one thing, while CNN is saying completely opposite.
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http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c2e_1218738752
Here's turkish crew getting shotup ...no idea by whom. (those comments most of time are wrong)
I'm guessing that video is pretty new since the comments are only minutes old. It also says it took place in South Ossetia, maybe it was Ossets shooting at them? I can't tell by the uniforms that you see. Apparently they were not only shot at, but also taken into custody.
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You're not looking hard enough. Here it is
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=170_1218723201
Liveleak.com is Fox News? :O
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For those who need alittle history of what's taken place, I would highly suggest this gentleman's youtube presentation while spreading peanut butter on his face.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_p3hLtr5Ok
:rock :rofl
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crack me up... so the only difference between this and the aggressive war in iraq was... the ruskies didn't have to fabricate lies to justify their actions.
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For those who need alittle history of what's taken place, I would highly suggest this gentleman's youtube presentation while spreading peanut butter on his face.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_p3hLtr5Ok
:rock :rofl
Thank you for that. :lol
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crack me up... so the only difference between this and the aggressive war in iraq was... the ruskies didn't have to fabricate lies to justify their actions.
Just like the Iraq debates, there are people on both sides of the fence......
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I really feel for all the Famillies on both sides who lost loved ones are about to lose loved ones, Once this clears up then it's business as usual for everyone else apart from them who will never have their Family members back.
Quiet tragic really in this day and age.
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Liveleak.com is Fox News? :O
Why are you playing stupid? Notice video footage is from Fox news.
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Tell that to the Czechs in 1968, the Hungarians in 1956, the Afghans.....
Somehow I doubt those people would be laughing.
Oh i dont think we should go down that route if you think about it for a sec.
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Russians points are valid... all sources are suspect; east, west, local, foreign.. seems like everybody has a dog in the race now.
We're forced to be our own filters... harkens back to the good old days of summer outside yankee stadium... 'programs, programs... get your programs here; can't tell the players without a program..."
I gotta tell yah, lookin at the screen; it's mighty tough to tell who the players are without a 'program'; what with all sides using the same equipment.
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Is it same video that has been playing for past two days? Because I'm also watching CNN and FOX ...fox reporting one thing, while CNN is saying completely opposite.
So this is the video where the georgian _separatists_ rob the reporters at gunpoint and shoot the escaping one in the back while supporting russians sit next to it watching? Interesting that you should bring it up.
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So this is the video where the georgian _separatists_ rob the reporters at gunpoint and shoot the escaping one in the back while supporting russians sit next to it watching? Interesting that you should bring it up.
Sounds like it... voice over commentary matches your description, dunno who the players actually were though.
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Russians points are valid... all sources are suspect; east, west, local, foreign.. seems like everybody has a dog in the race now.
We're forced to be our own filters... harkens back to the good old days of summer outside yankee stadium... 'programs, programs... get your programs here; can't tell the players without a program..."
I gotta tell yah, lookin at the screen; it's mighty tough to tell who the players are without a 'program'; what with all sides using the same equipment.
I'll have to agree. I was watching earlier Fox news and they were telling that Russian forces are advancing towards Gori and they are showing old T62 tank crewed by what it seems - Osetians.
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crack me up... so the only difference between this and the aggressive war in iraq was... the ruskies didn't have to fabricate lies to justify their actions.
did sumbuddy get scolded for wetting the bed again?
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ussia wins concesssions in Georgia truce
By MATTHEW LEE – 1 hour ago
PARIS (AP) — Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice will ask Georgia to sign a cease-fire agreement with Russia that includes concessions to Moscow but preserves Georgian borders, U.S. officials said Thursday.
The French-brokered agreement requires Russia to withdraw all of its combat forces from Georgia but gives Russian peacekeepers the express right to patrol beyond the disputed border region of South Ossetia that lies at the heart of the conflict, the officials said.
Rice will bring the six-point document with her on Friday to Tbilisi where she plans to underscore the Bush administration's support for the former Soviet republic's pro-Western government but also seek President Mikhail Saakashvili's approval, the officials said.
The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because the accord is not yet finalized and there are still U.S. and Georgian concerns about the expanded patrol rights that need to be worked out.
French President Nicolas Sarkozy, who worked out the deal, said Thursday after meeting with Rice in southern France that he believed that Russia would begin to withdraw its troops from South Ossetia, another disputed area of Abkahzia and Georgia proper once Saakashvili signs it.
"If tomorrow, President Saakashvili signs these documents, then the withdrawal of the Russian troops can start," he said.
If agreed, the ceasefire would allow Russian peacekeepers who were in South Ossetia before the fighting broke out a week ago to stay and they would now be permitted to patrol in a strip up to 10 kilometers outside the area, the U.S. officials said.
The concession was demanded by Russia, which accuses Georgian forces of attacking the peacekeepers and pro-Russian South Ossetians who live there. Georgia's military move to regain control of the region prompted Russia to launch its invasion.
The U.S. officials acknowledged the solution was not perfect, but said their primary goal is to get Russian combat forces out of Georgia as quickly as possible and that they would only accept the expanded patrol mandate if they were limited, well defined and temporary.
"It can't be open-ended, either geographically or in time," one official said. "It has to be circumscribed and its got to be in the context of the Russians withdrawing all their armed forces."
Russian patrols outside South Ossetia proper would stop once a new international peacekeeping and monitoring force is in place, the official said, adding that the Russians would not be allowed to use the 10-kilometer band "to impede legitimate Georgian movement."
The ceasefire would also allow Russian peacekeepers to remain in Abkhazia, but they would not be given the expanded patrol rights, officials said.
In return, the agreement calls for Russia to respect Georgia's sovereignty and territorial integrity, something that Sarkozy and Rice both stressed on Thursday after Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov openly questioned the viability country's established borders.
"The United States of America stands strongly, as the president of France just said, for the territorial integrity of Georgia," Rice said. "This is a member state of the United Nations and its internationally recognized borders need to be respected."
"It is time for this crisis to be over," she said. "The provisional cease-fire that was agreed to really must go into place. And that means that military activities have to cease."
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hKO6E2Vs5MktD_-DXHsbQ6tnT1-QD92I80100
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Russia kind of shot themselves in the foot though. Poland signed off on the agreement to install Interceptors and essentially become a military protectorate of the US.
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Russia kind of shot themselves in the foot though. Poland signed off on the agreement to install Interceptors and essentially become a military protectorate of the US.
Yep for sure, and its a very good move by Poland. They getting their military hardware upgraded as a result of hosting the missile defence. The Poles still remember the last time the Russians were there.
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Yep for sure, and its a very good move by Poland. They getting their military hardware upgraded as a result of hosting the missile defence. The Poles still remember the last time the Russians were there.
Russians were there? History check maybe in order here...
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Russians were there? History check maybe in order here...
LMAO. I guess my Grandmother told me propaganda lies. Maybe you should go to history class.
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Russians were there? History check maybe in order here...
"In 1939, during the Russian invasion of Poland, some 14,500 Polish officers were captured and interned in three P.O.W. camps in the Soviet Union. The next time the world heard of these prisoners was a news broadcast on April 13, 1943, from Radio Berlin. It stated that the German Army had discovered mass graves at Katyn, 18 kilometres north-west of Smolensk, near the village of Gneizdovo and containing the bodies of Polish officers. Eight graves were opened and 4,253 bodies exhumed. All were dressed in Polish uniforms, with badges of rank and medals intact. No watches or rings were found on the corpses. It was established that the bodies were of Polish officers from the camp at Kozielsk, situated in the grounds of a former Monastery, near Orel. Two other camps, at Starobielsk (3,910 men) and at Ostashkov (6,500 men) were wound up and closed in the first days of April, 1940. Whatever happened to these 10,000 odd officers has never been established. They were never seen alive again. From evidence obtained after the war, all prisoners of Kozielsk camp were shot by Stalin's NKVD.
On April 13, 1990, fifty years after the massacre, the USSR for the first time admitted its responsibility for the murders. The whole controversy was finally laid to rest when Boris Yeltsin, handed over the secret files on Katyn to the Polish president, Lech Walesa, on October 14, 1992. In May 1992, in a wood near Kharkov, a Russian private investigation team discovered a mass grave containing 3,891 bodies of Polish officers from the camp at Starobielsk in the Ukraine. In June of that year, Soviet authorities discovered 30 mass graves at Miednoje, one hundred miles north-west of Moscow. They contained the remains of 6,287 Polish prisoners from the Ostashkov island camp on Lake Seliguer. Before the massacre, 245 officers from Kozielsk, 79 from Starobielsk and 124 from the camp at Ostashkor , were transferred, for no apparent reason, to a camp at Pavlishchev Bor, a hundred miles north-west of the Kozielsk camp. These 448 officers proved to be the only survivors of the Katyn massacre. In other parts of the Katyn Forest, other graves were discovered containing the bodies of Russian political prisoners who were executed in pre-war days by the NKVD. It seems that the Katyn Forest was the main execution site for Stalin's secret police. (Not to be confused with the Khatyn murder site near Minsk.)"
http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/world_war_2_soviet_war_crimes.htm (http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/world_war_2_soviet_war_crimes.htm)
Russian... your knowledge of history is inadequate. Perhaps, where you were educated is at fault.
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Im speachless really.
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Im speachless really.
Frosts my cupcakes when I see people who should know... and for whatever reason; refuse the truth.
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I wonder what happened to SOVIET UNION during that time..... :eek:
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Frosts my cupcakes when I see people who should know... and for whatever reason; refuse the truth.
I hear that they're no longer cupcakes, but full sized wedding cakes these days.... :devil
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I wonder what happened to SOVIET UNION during that time..... :eek:
Dude, i have never heard anyone reffer to Russians as "Soviets" even during the Soviet Union. It was still Russians. You cant get out of this one.
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I wonder what happened to SOVIET UNION during that time..... :eek:
That's really not surprising....you two still can't differentiate between the two.... I keep hearing newsman refer to Russians as Soviets.... propaganda for past 70 years is paying off..
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So, you are saying that no Russians were in Poland?
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we need to put the smackdown on the russians for the crap and then send a note to the chinese not to even THINK about screwing with Taiwan
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wow thats scary
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c2e_1218738752
Here's turkish crew getting shotup ...no idea by whom. (those comments most of time are wrong)
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So, you are saying that no Russians were in Poland?
Can you tell the difference between state and country? Last time I checked when looking on old maps, I saw USSR or Soviet Union and not RUSSIA.
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So, Are you saying that no Russians was in Poland?
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I wonder what happened to SOVIET UNION during that time..... :eek:
Like that's an excuse?
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He will say that since that commie dirtball stalin was a Georgian by birth that it was the Georgians fault. BTW South Ossetia IS Georgian territory... Russians had no damned business there to begin with.
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Like that's an excuse?
You pitiful piece of.... Freakin frosts my cupcakes... former citizen of a nation that hosted, that created the most murderous regime in history, responsible for more death, murder, rape and horror than any other nation on earth... ever; made hitlers gestapo germany look like a kindergarten exercise in horror... with a potentate leader that was an operative of the second most viscous 'security service' in history; surpassed by only it's immediate predecessor the NKVD...
and you pull this BS outta yer sphincter and present it here as an EXCUSE..
offal... disgusting offal.
Would you like to murder me? Get your hands on my warm blood? Cut parts of my limbs? Is that what you wish?
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Would you like to murder me? Get your hands on my warm blood? Cut parts of my limbs? Is that what you wish?
deleted. Voluntarily.
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:aok
For those who need alittle history of what's taken place, I would highly suggest this gentleman's youtube presentation while spreading peanut butter on his face.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_p3hLtr5Ok
:rock :rofl
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Would you like to murder me? Get your hands on my warm blood? Cut parts of my limbs? Is that what you wish?
This kind of stuff will get this thread locked down in a hurry. Edit that before it happens please...
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Would you like to murder me? Get your hands on my warm blood? Cut parts of my limbs? Is that what you wish?
You wish to get us banned from this board by your trolling, thats why i pleaded to Skyzzy to ban you before you made us go awol.
Ill ask you again.
- Are you saying no Russians were in Poland?
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This kind of stuff will get this thread locked down in a hurry. Edit that before it happens please...
seconded.
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Why are you playing stupid? Notice video footage is from Fox news.
Unless it says Fox News in a language other than English....all I see is Liveleak.com. In the video itself, in the lower left corner it says...NTV with a logo I am not familiar with. So no, I don't see Fox News on the link you provided and I am not playing stupid either.
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Would you like to murder me? Get your hands on my warm blood? Cut parts of my limbs? Is that what you wish?
wow :huh :confused: :eek: :uhoh
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Can you tell the difference between state and country? Last time I checked when looking on old maps, I saw USSR or Soviet Union and not RUSSIA.
Russian, in my limited time on the BBS, that has got to be the worst semantic argument I've yet to see.
Because, in all truth, even if a Soviet (member of the USSR) soldier was estonian, latvian, Ukrainian, Kazakh, Uzbek, Georgian, or Russian proper, they were all controlled from Moscow, the center of the USSR. What happened in Katyn forest was from the Kremlin.
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Sorry for my outburst, but some members need to realize that I'm still a human and just because I share a slightly different view point - you don't need to treat me as hostile. Cool the frak down and communicate like you're for a western nation and not some raghead dirtbag that enjoys to cut heads off when people think differently.
Russian, in my limited time on the BBS, that has got to be the worst semantic argument I've yet to see.
Because, in all truth, even if a Soviet (member of the USSR) soldier was estonian, latvian, Ukrainian, Kazakh, Uzbek, Georgian, or Russian proper, they were all controlled from Moscow, the center of the USSR. What happened in Katyn forest was from the Kremlin.
So to you, Russia is still Soviet and still communist? Did you sleep in 90s and missed 'minor' change? Russia = Russian Federation = socialist / democratic (What-ever-else it is).
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Sorry for my outburst, but some members need to realize that I'm still a human and just because I share a slightly different view point - you don't need to treat me as hostile. Cool the frak down and communicate like you're for a western nation and not some raghead dirtbag that enjoys to cut heads off when people think differently.
Your glib comment that Russians were not in Poland... the inference that Russians are blameless for the slaughterhouse your countrymen made of eastern europe, that the NOW free nations of eastern europe have nothing to fear from russia is ludicrous.
And indefensible.
Shall I start trotting out the litany of horrific crimes committed by Russians post-Yeltsin?
Shall we start with Chechnya? Surely you recall the horrific dismemberment of Chechnya ?
Recognized as a distinct people since the 17th cent., the Chechens were the most active opponents of Russia's conquest (1818–1917) of the Caucasus. They fought bitterly during an unsuccessful 1850s rebellion led by Imam Shamyl. The Bolsheviks seized the region in 1918 but were dislodged in 1919 by counterrevolutionary forces under Gen. A. I. Denikin.
After Soviet rule was reestablished, the area was included in 1921 in the Mountain People's Republic. The Chechen Autonomous Region was created in 1922, and in 1934 it became part of the Chechen-Ingush Region, made a republic in 1936. After Chechen and Ingush units collaborated with the invading Germans during World War II, many residents were deported (1944) to Central Asia. Deportees were repatriated in 1956, and the republic was reestablished in 1957.
In 1991, as the Soviet Union disintegrated, the Chechen-dominated parliament of the republic declared independence as the Republic of Ichkeria, soon better known as Chechnya. In June, 1992, Russia granted Ingush inhabitants their own republic (Ingushetia) in the western fifth of the territory.
Tensions between the Russian government and that of Chechen president Dzhokhar Dudayev escalated into warfare in late 1994, as Russian troops arrived to crush the separatist movement. Grozny was devastated in the fighting, and tens of thousands died. Russian forces regained control of many areas in 1995, but separatist guerrillas controlled much of the mountainous south and committed spectacular terrorist actions in other parts of Russia. Fighting continued through 1996, when Dudayev was killed and succeeded by Zelimkhan Yandarbiyev. The Russians withdrew, essentially admitting defeat, following a cease-fire that left Chechnya with de facto autonomy.
Aslan Maskhadov, chief of staff of the Chechen forces, was elected president early in 1997 but appeared to have little control over the republic. Russian forces bombed and invaded Chechnya, capturing Grozny and forcing the rebels into mountain strongholds. Both sides have been accused of brutality and terrorizing noncombatants. In 2003 voters approved a new constitution for Chechnya, and Akhmad Kadyrov was subsequently elected president, but the election was generally regarded as neither free nor fair. Both the constitution and the president were backed by Russian government. Kadyrov was assassinated in 2004; Alu Alkhanov was elected to succeed him. Russian forces killed Maskhadov, who was considered a moderate Chechen rebel leader, in 2005 and Shamil Baseyev, a notorious and significant rebel commander, in 2006. Alkhanov resigned as president in 2007 after a power struggle with Prime Minister Ramzan Kadyrov, son of the former president. Ramzan Kadyrov was then appointed president by Russian president Putin.
Sound like a familiar chain of events? Another round of Russians, viewing anybody but russians as vermin in play in Georgia now? I believe so.. so does any rational man capable of reading and understanding history... that is, anybody that's not russian in origin; carrying a guilt trip; refusing reality and substituting it with their own.
A russian trademark.
So to you, Russia is still Soviet and still communist? Did you sleep in 90s and missed 'minor' change? Russia = Russian Federation = socialist / democratic (What-ever-else it is).
Does it matter in the slightest what cloak your countrymen wear when they set out to crush yet another free and democratic republic??
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Hang,
....what is your point? Why are you so hateful? Why do you wish blood on others so much?
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What is your point? Why have you stopped beating your children? Why do you parrot propaganda?
*sheesh*
I didn't (and don't) club baby seals, Russian. If you read back through your posts, you'll find my replies to yours reasoned and level... until your BS comment about poland. Then I landed on your butt.. & you asked for it.
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What is your point? Why have you stopped beating your children? Why do you parrot propaganda?
*sheesh*
I didn't (and don't) club baby seals, Russian. If you read back through your posts, you'll find my replies to yours reasoned and level... until your BS comment about poland. Then I landed on your butt.. & you asked for it.
So because I don't share your view, you must "land on my butt"? I spoke out and you attacked me. This is how you like to argue on this BB?
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So because I don't share your view, you must "land on my butt"? I spoke out and you attacked me. This is how you like to argue on this BB?
You were not 'attacked'. Georgia was attacked. By Russians. Poland was attacked. By Russians. You were scolded. By an American.
Notice the difference?
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You were not 'attacked'. Georgia was attacked. By Russians. Poland was attacked. By Russians. You were scolded. By an American.
Notice the difference?
So you don't accept death cause by Georgian troops on 8th? You don't think UN mandate should be followed because you hate Russians so much? You don't still see difference that Soviet Union is not same thing as Russia. Why don't you start giving out "Washington's" disease infested blankets to Mexican and solve 'immigration' problem.
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So because I don't share your view . . .
"Sharing a view" has nothing to do with it. You are literally denying reality.
You don't still see difference that Soviet Union is not same thing as Russia.
So, let me see if I can play your game.
America did not drop the atomic bomb on Hiroshima -- the USAAF, an organization that no longer exists, was the one that did it. Therefore America is blameless, even though it was America that started the organization, manned it, and ran it.
I will have to remember this the next time someone tries to call "America" some kind of bad name because we were "inhumane" enough to drop nooks. America didn't do it -- the USAAF did it.
Sounds a bit silly, wouldn't you agree?
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So you don't accept death cause by Georgian troops on 8th? You don't thing UN mandate should be followed because you hate Russians so much? You don't still see difference that Soviet Union is not same thing as Russia. Why don't you start giving out "Washington's" disease infested blankets to Mexican and solve 'immigration' problem.
*sigh* I do not hate russians. I hate tyranny. Doesn't matter a bit what uniform it wears. American, British, French, German, Russian, Paki, Iraqi, Chinese, Japanese... I'm an equal opportunity hater of tyranny, ordered by any government. It's part of my heritage . "Question Authority". Your heritage is obfuscation, denial and propaganda... clearly evidenced by your pitiful poorly chosen and indefensible 'soviet union' dodge for the slaughter of eastern europe.
If you have further info germaine to the Russian/Georgian situiation, lets hear it. Otherwize, lets not continue the hijack of Boroda's superb troll.
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*sigh* I do not hate russians. I hate tyranny. Doesn't matter a bit what uniform it wears. American, British, French, German, Russian, Paki, Iraqi, Chinese, Japanese... I'm an equal opportunity hater of tyranny, ordered by any government. It's part of my heritage . "Question Authority". Your heritage is obfuscation, denial and propaganda... clearly evidenced by your pitiful poorly chosen and indefensible 'soviet union' dodge for the slaughter of eastern europe.
If you have further info germaine to the Russian/Georgian situiation, lets hear it. Otherwize, lets not continue the hijack of Boroda's superb troll.
You have tyranny yet you blame Russia (not Soviet Union) for stopping genocide by Georgians. This "feeling" seems very selective.... why don't I see this feeling in other places such as Africa......admit it, before Boroda's post you never knew what Osetia was and what problems they faced for past 20 years.
btw, please realize you speak to citizen of USA. And my 'dodge' is strictly philosophical definition of a word. Something apparently foreign to you. I'll repeat Soviet Union is NOT Russian Federation. I'm not denying anything, I'm correctly simple use of a definition. Stop trying to stick your words into my mouth.
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Russians were there? History check maybe in order here...
Yes, they were. Talk to your own Politburo. They can fill you in, since you're the one "playing stupid" (your own quote directed at Elfie) now,
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You have tyranny yet you blame Russia (not Soviet Union) for stopping genocide by Georgians.
Alleged genocide.....alleged. No one here who has repeated the above allegation has offered even the slightest proof.
Just in case you missed it earlier in this thread, the definition of genocide straight from Websters most magnificent dictionary. ;)
: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
The term genocide gets tossed around very easily these days.
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Alleged genocide.....alleged. No one here who has repeated the above allegation has offered even the slightest proof.
Just in case you missed it earlier in this thread, the definition of genocide straight from Websters most magnificent dictionary. ;)
The term genocide gets tossed around very easily these days.
"the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group"
USAC's B17 deliberate and systematically bombed German cities = genocide of Germans
USAF's B52 deliberate and systematically bombed Vietnam cities = genocide of Vietnamese.
As you can see....argument by definition can take you very far...
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Russian, this is REAL simple. Who is the REAL leader of present day Russia? Putin. Where did Putin come from? The OLD Soviet Union, he was KGB. So, now you understand why everyone is just laughing when you try to say that present day Russia is NOT the old Soviet Union, and therefore present day Russia had nothing at all to do with the iron fisted ruling of Eastern Europe from 1945 until 1990 or so.
And now you know why no one is surprised at the actions of present day Russia and the chicanery they used to excuse invading Georgia. Now is anyone surprised that present day Russia is attempting to revive their strangle hold on Eastern Europe and their old empire. The old Soviet Union faltered because they ran out of money, and now present day Russia, with a fresh transfusion of petro-money, is trying to reclaim the glory days of the old Soviet Union. No one is fooled. Present day Russia is a revived Soviet Union trying to reclaim its past territory and past "glory".
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"the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group"
USAC's B17 deliberate and systematically bombed German cities = genocide of Germans
USAF's B52 deliberate and systematically bombed Vietnam cities = genocide of Vietnamese.
As you can see....argument by definition can take you very far...
You are wrong again Russian. The USAF did NOT deliberately try to destroy the entire German or Vietnamese peoples.
Genocide is the deliberate destruction of an entire group of people. B-52 strikes in Vietnam were not designed to annihilate the the Vietnamese people. The bombing raids over Germany were not designed to annihilate the German people, only to destroy their war making capabilities and to demoralize the civilian population.
I doubt that either side in the current conflict is deliberately trying to destroy the other group completely.
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You have tyranny yet you blame Russia (not Soviet Union) for stopping genocide by Georgians. This "feeling" seems very selective.... why don't I see this feeling in other places such as Africa......admit it, before Boroda's post you never knew what Osetia was and what problems they faced for past 20 years.
btw, please realize you speak to citizen of USA. And my 'dodge' is strictly philosophical definition of a word. Something apparently foreign to you. I'll repeat Soviet Union is NOT Russian Federation. I'm not denying anything, I'm correctly simple use of a definition. Stop trying to stick your words into my mouth.
I guess you are trying to argue out of "naivety" then?
Here, this will be posted now so you can have a clear understanding of what you fail to realize. The "Soviet Union" was actually a nation named the "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics", interesting as which this was shortened to the former. It consisted of 15 Republics: Armenian SSR, Azerbaijan SSR, Byelorussian SSR, Estonian SSR, Georgian SSR, Kazakh SSR, Kirghiz SSR, Latvian SSR, Lithuanian SSR, Moldavian SSR, Russian SFSR, Tajik SSR, Turkmen SSR, Ukrainian SSR, and Uzbek SSR.
Even back in 1922, four Republics: The Russian SFSR, Ukrainian SSR, Belarusian SSR, and Transcaucasian SFSR) joined into the Soviet Union.
Notice the bold print? Some may miss it if they realize they can only pretend and dodge long enough not to see it. It's amazing how the human mind works, you have a few history classes and you can name the 15 former Soviet Socialist Republics by memory. There was a 16th Republic but the "Karelo-Finnish Republic" was, IIRC, absorbed by the Russian SSR.
So what is next Russian?
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You have tyranny yet you blame Russia (not Soviet Union) for stopping genocide by Georgians. This "feeling" seems very selective.... why don't I see this feeling in other places such as Africa......admit it, before Boroda's post you never knew what Osetia was and what problems they faced for past 20 years.
btw, please realize you speak to citizen of USA. And my 'dodge' is strictly philosophical definition of a word. Something apparently foreign to you. I'll repeat Soviet Union is NOT Russian Federation. I'm not denying anything, I'm correctly simple use of a definition. Stop trying to stick your words into my mouth.
Please realize I could give a rats bellybutton what nation you are a citizen or subject of. I form my opinions of people based on what they say, what they do, how they relate to the world they live in.
Based on what I've heard from you so far, I'd peg you as an opportunist, rather than a citizen... obviously, were you an enemy of tyranny your postulations would be a little less knee-jerk reactionary in defense of your homelands national heritage. I suspect you just filled out the forms, mouthed the words and consider your presence here in america an affront to the ideals programmed into your socialist upbringing.
On to the subject matter: You gloss over transgressions by russians, by ossets, and focus only on georgians as being solely responsible for this situation.
There are probably 30 or more links to reliable info indicating the georgians were provoked in this thread. There is an exceedingly large body of information, NOT western in origin, that indicates the Russians, under Putin, are exporting the same type of 'diplomacy' they used on Chechnya... to Georgia.
There exists an impressive body of info that indicates that russia has illegally violated the sovereign border of georgia and continues to impose their will in georgia despite your denial of those immutable facts..
We have seen the leaders of Latvia, Estonia, Ukraine, Lithuaina ALL in Tbilisi, expressing solidarity with Georgia, decrying this tyranny wrought upon georgia by russia. There exists in the history books an absolutely astounding amount of data that shows this behavior by moscow is business as usual in this region.
It's tyranny.
Surely, you recognize tyranny... unless perhaps you figure it's a russian birthright?
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"the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group"
USAC's B17 deliberate and systematically bombed German cities = genocide of Germans
USAF's B52 deliberate and systematically bombed Vietnam cities = genocide of Vietnamese.
As you can see....argument by definition can take you very far...
Checkmate:
When the Red Army captured the right-bank Warsaw, the Soviet offensive was abruptly stopped, while the Germans went on to ruthlessly suppress the uprising. Although the insurgency, planned to last 48 hours, held out for 63 days, eventually the Home Army fighters were forced to capitulate. They were transported to the POW camps in Germany, while the entire civilian population was expelled. Hitler, ignoring the negotiated terms of the capitulation, ordered the entire city to be razed to the ground, and the library and museum collections robbed or burned. When on 17 January 1945 the Soviets crossed the Vistula and entered through the left-bank, they found a Warsaw that had almost ceased to exist; 85% of the city had been destroyed, including the historic Old Town and the Royal Castle. The surviving Home Army fighters were rounded up by the Russian secret police NKVD and either murdered or deported to Siberia.
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Can Russian or anyone else point out how that news clip he (Russian) linked is a Fox News source? I honestly wasn't seeing any reference to Fox News.
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Another round of insults... This is pointless.
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I have tried to remain unbiased while reading this thread, but I don't understand your reason for dodging Elfie and Hangtime's questions. If it is so obvious, or maybe not so, that the links were related to Fox... just point it out, what is the benefit of beating around the bush?
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I have tried to remain unbiased while reading this thread, but I don't understand your reason for dodging Elfie and Hangtime's questions. If it is so obvious, or maybe not so, that the links were related to Fox... just point it out, what is the benefit of beating around the bush?
Maybe you can help Mensa since Russian seems to have bailed out on us.
This is the link he gave for a Fox News video.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=170_1218723201
(I can't believe you read all 36 pages of this Mensa! :D )
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Hi Elfie..
Just ran it again... it appears to be in fact, a Fox news piece. I recognize the talking head, and the FOX News label is on the screen, lower left. I don't usually watch Fox, but this guy I've seen before. I have zero confidence in the guys veracity in reporting the situation; he calls 'em georgians; for all I know he could be mis-identifying the folks shooting at him. Could be ossets, I just don't know. Maybe they watch Fox too. ;)
Now, I have no clue if this ran on Fox here... and in my opinion, Fox is not my first, second or third choice for a reliable source.. simply because I've seen bias in thier presentation of news is slanted very pro-administration... again, my personal opinion.
here's the link again.. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=170_1218723201 (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=170_1218723201)
I saw a piece on CNN from Michael Ware... this guy I trust. What he has to say is chilling... and I accept it as accurate based on his reporting from Iraq.
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/08/14/ware.gori.road.russian.control.cnn?iref=videosearch (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/08/14/ware.gori.road.russian.control.cnn?iref=videosearch)
Hope this helps..
Steve
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Hi Elfie..
Just ran it again... it appears to be in fact, a Fox news piece. I recognize the talking head, and the FOX News label is on the screen, lower left. I don't usually watch Fox, but this guy I've seen before. I have zero confidence in the guys veracity in reporting the situation; he calls 'em georgians; for all I know he could be mis-identifying the folks shooting at him. Could be ossets, I just don't know. Maybe they watch Fox too. ;)
Now, I have no clue if this ran on Fox here... and in my opinion, Fox is not my first, second or third choice for a reliable source.. simply because I've seen bias in thier presentation of news is slanted very pro-administration... again, my personal opinion.
here's the link again.. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=170_1218723201 (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=170_1218723201)
I saw a piece on CNN from Michael Ware... this guy I trust. What he has to say is chilling... and I accept it as accurate based on his reporting from Iraq.
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/08/14/ware.gori.road.russian.control.cnn?iref=videosearch (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/08/14/ware.gori.road.russian.control.cnn?iref=videosearch)
Hope this helps..
Steve
Since I don't watch news on the tv (Fox or anyone else) I was not aware that the logo in the lower left was in fact, a Fox News logo or that the talking head was associated with Fox. Well, I will admit to watching CNN for hours and hours on 9/11, but only if you twist my arm really hard. :devil
Thanks, dunno why this was so difficult for Mr. Russian. :huh
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Sorry for my outburst, but some members need to realize that I'm still a human and just because I share a slightly different view point - you don't need to treat me as hostile. Cool the frak down and communicate like you're for a western nation and not some raghead dirtbag that enjoys to cut heads off when people think differently.
So to you, Russia is still Soviet and still communist? Did you sleep in 90s and missed 'minor' change? Russia = Russian Federation = socialist / democratic (What-ever-else it is).
I was gonna let this go, because it looked like the conversation had moved past it. But, the veiled insults' in your post demand that I answer you with this; First of all, YOU have put at least one post, maybe more, that could have shut this whole thread down, and destroyed any discussion we had with it. IMHO, the Histrionics' have come from your side of the computer screen. Russian, I do know that you are by yourself in this. It's almost like Boroda got this whole thing going, and when you jumped in on his side to help argue your cause...he scampered, leaving you stone-cold alone. However, this discussion is most heated because it IS happening right now. Everyone's gone nationalist in less than a week. You should know something though...the way this has happened, with Russia advancing farther than any 'peacekeeping' force should have (If you remember in Gulf War I, after pushing Saddam out of Kuwait, Coalition forces that actually did cross into Iraq came right back out. The whole ground war was 100 hours, entry-to-exit.)
The Russian army is still in areas' that it is not supposed to be according to the treaty a week later. This, even your own news doesn't refute.
And secondly, as to the little barb about Russia is still Soviet, and Russians' are still communists? I believe the discussion was about the Katyn forest in 1939. That's more than a little bit pre-Glasnost.
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Elfie, there are now 60 pages on my end, you must have changed posts per page.
Yes, I have been avidly keeping up with this thread. I missed the Cold War, it ended around the time I was born, this to me is almost like reliving history, and at the same time seeing it created. It's very interesting and I plan on continuing to watch you all post :).
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Since I don't watch news on the tv (Fox or anyone else) I was not aware that the logo in the lower left was in fact, a Fox News logo or that the talking head was associated with Fox. Well, I will admit to watching CNN for hours and hours on 9/11, but only if you twist my arm really hard. :devil
Thanks, dunno why this was so difficult for Mr. Russian. :huh
Didja run the CNN piece by Ware...? The 'explosions heard in Gori' I think I can explain... he suggested disposal of seized munitions. Makes no sense.. the georgians, ossets and russians use the same munitions. It's more like he's hearing the destruction of the city... when the russians secured Grozny in Chechnya they began dynamiting every building in the city... utter destruction. They started with the government buildings and proceeded to level every single commercial building and then methodically started on the apartment houses.
Chilling.
Sends the strongest message possible... and this is how the russians 'pacified' chechnya.
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Didja run the CNN piece by Ware...? The 'explosions heard in Gori' I think I can explain... he suggested disposal of seized munitions. Makes no sense.. the georgians, ossets and russians use the same munitions. It's more like he's hearing the destruction of the city... when the russians secured Grozny in Chechnya they began dynamiting every building in the city... utter destruction. They started with the government buildings and proceeded to level every single commercial building and then methodically started on the apartment houses.
Chilling.
Sends the strongest message possible... and this is how the russians 'pacified' chechnya.
I watched the vid you linked.....and you are correct that it makes no sense to dispose of any munitions since all three participants use the same stuff. Let's hope we aren't seeing a repeat of Grozny in Gori. Although I have to say I am not hopeful that Gori will be spared. (I had to restart my browser though cuz it locked up on me after the vid was done though.)
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Elfie, there are now 60 pages on my end, you must have changed posts per page.
Yes, I have been avidly keeping up with this thread. I missed the Cold War, it ended around the time I was born, this to me is almost like reliving history, and at the same time seeing it created. It's very interesting and I plan on continuing to watch you all post :).
I think I did change that setting.
I grew up in the middle of the Cold War. These events and the politics surrounding them are eerily similar to the Cold War. Heck, I did my service time during the Reagan era and all our training involved scenarios of fighting the USSR and the Warsaw Pact. The load crews I worked with and was a part of all took extreme pride in how fast we could reload fighters with munitions and we were always bummed that we had to manually remove those munitions instead of the pilots going and using them on the commies. :D
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Russian you really ought to walk this discussion thru completely. Being in the US service, you're bound to have to settle it sooner or later when you run into other Hangtimes and Eflies, etc. Not having an answer the next time you're put up against these arguments may not be as negligible as pixels on a forum.
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So tonight on the news the russian commander holding Gori was happily telling the BBC he's ready to roll on the georgian capital.
So theSoviet Uni... eerrr I mean Russians think that a minority wanting independence in a country is a good reason to invade huh?
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So theSoviet Uni... eerrr I mean Russians think that a minority wanting independence in a country is a good reason to invade huh?
What is good enough for Hitler is good enough for Putin, Comrade.
South Ossetia is the new Sudetenland. Georgia is the new Czechoslovakia.
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What is good enough for Hitler is good enough for Putin, Comrade.
South Ossetia is the new Sudetenland. Georgia is the new Czechoslovakia.
yes and and if that is the case then as I have stated before on this and other BBS soon enough we Americans will be forced to come over to europe to settle another bloody dispute. first we will be forced to rearm england's civil population and after we liberate your continent for the third time in 100 years you will be telling us how messed up we are while you take our money.
the only thing that could mess us up is if barack hussein obama gets elected and we end up in another european war with that inexperienced tool in the oval office.
maybe it's time that America just conquers the world and well you petulent ones how it is, none of you seem to have much of a clue as to how to get along. you don't see us over here having problems with our neighbors do you?
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What is good enough for Hitler is good enough for Putin, Comrade.
South Ossetia is the new Sudetenland. Georgia is the new Czechoslovakia.
Brit saying such things is truly pathetic.
My Mother can't see Russian news in Australia, they run some French programs instead.
The degree of hatred is stunning.
Do you seriously think occupation and destruction of Iraq is good and Russia protecting it's people is bad?
What's the difference between Kosovo anf South Ossetia? Maybe it's that Osetins don't control drug and slave trade in Europe?
http://exiledonline.com/war-nerd-south-ossetia-the-war-of-my-dreams/
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Brit saying such things is truly pathetic.
My Mother can't see Russian news in Australia, they run some French programs instead.
The degree of hatred is stunning.
Do you seriously think occupation and destruction of Iraq is good and Russia protecting it's people is bad?
What's the difference between Kosovo anf South Ossetia? Maybe it's that Osetins don't control drug and slave trade in Europe?
http://exiledonline.com/war-nerd-south-ossetia-the-war-of-my-dreams/
Russia isn't protecting it's people though. Osetia is a Georgian Province...
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Russia isn't protecting it's people though. Osetia is a Georgian Province...
Kosovo is a Serbian province. Iraq is/was an independent country. I fail to see any decent logic in your post.
Quo licit Jovi non licit bovi, double standards, as usual.
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Kosovo is a Serbian province. Iraq is/was an independent country. I fail to see any decent logic in your post.
Quo licit Jovi non licit bovi, double standards, as usual.
As Russian UN Ambassador Churkin replied to American screams of "territorial integrity" of Georgia: A country that doesn't respect such things in Iraq and Serbia should refrain from such remarks.
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Do you seriously think occupation and destruction of Iraq is good and Russia protecting it's people is bad?
:rofl
We didn't destroy Iraq, Iraq is doing better than it ever has under Suddam Hussein.
Iraq is/was an independent country. I fail to see any decent logic in your post.
Iraq was worse under Suddam than it is under our troops. People have the right to speak out against the government, the soldiers. If they want the soldiers out of Iraq, THEY have to start dealing with the terrorists themselves.
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yes and and if that is the case then as I have stated before on this and other BBS soon enough we Americans will be forced to come over to europe to settle another bloody dispute. first we will be forced to rearm england's civil population and after we liberate your continent for the third time in 100 years you will be telling us how messed up we are while you take our money.
Its only been the once so far...you need a second before you can have a third
Brit saying such things is truly pathetic.
My Mother can't see Russian news in Australia, they run some French programs instead.
The degree of hatred is stunning.
Do you seriously think occupation and destruction of Iraq is good and Russia protecting it's people is bad?
What's the difference between Kosovo anf South Ossetia? Maybe it's that Osetins don't control drug and slave trade in Europe?
http://exiledonline.com/war-nerd-south-ossetia-the-war-of-my-dreams/
Tell your mother the Russian news is on after the French news on SBS every morning at 10.00 am...but then tell her to ignore that crap and watch the ABC, SBS, Channel 9, Channel 7, and Channel 10 news programs for actual truth instead whatever rubbish NTV moscow comes up with
What is good enough for Hitler is good enough for Putin, Comrade.
South Ossetia is the new Sudetenland. Georgia is the new Czechoslovakia.
What he said
Tronsky
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We didn't destroy Iraq, Iraq is doing better than it ever has under Suddam Hussein.
Iraq was worse under Suddam than it is under our troops. People have the right to speak out against the government, the soldiers. If they want the soldiers out of Iraq, THEY have to start dealing with the terrorists themselves.
If you think so - then I suppose we don't have anything to discuss.
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Brit saying such things is truly pathetic.
My Mother can't see Russian news in Australia, they run some French programs instead.
I was watching Russian news (Russia Today) a few days ago over here in the UK. It's available with lots of other global news networks including Al Jazeera. It was completely biased in favour of the Russian perspective. There was no reporting on what what happening in Gori etc.
Compare and contrast with the BBC reporting which talks about the damage done in South Ossetia by the Georgians on August 7th. Of course, there would be more, but Russia was extrememly slow at letting anyone near South Ossetia from the foreign press. You lost the battle for world opinion, comrade.
Do you seriously think occupation and destruction of Iraq is good and Russia protecting it's people is bad?
I was against the invasion of Iraq - a well documented fact on this BBS.
If Russia was solely interested in protecting its 'citizens' in South Ossetia, why are they still in Poti, Senaki and Gori? Why did they take over Abkhazia and push out into Georgia from the West?
If they had limited their actions to South Ossetia and immediate environs, none of this would have happened.
What's the difference between Kosovo anf South Ossetia?
I'll answer this. Not at any point were there NATO tanks 60km from Belgrade.
Enough force was used to halt the genocide - a concept the Russians don't seem to understand. I say 'seem' since I'm convinced this Georgian crisis, ultimately, has nothing to do with halting attacks on civilians. What is happening in Abkhazia, Poti, Senaki and Gori demonstrate this to the world and anyone with an ounce of objectivity.
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Tell your mother the Russian news is on after the French news on SBS every morning at 10.00 am...but then tell her to ignore that crap and watch the ABC, SBS, Channel 9, Channel 7, and Channel 10 news programs for actual truth instead whatever rubbish NTV moscow comes up with
My Mother works in the morning. What she said was about evening news.
Actual truth?! In Western media about Russia?!
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Already he "Putin" is threatening Poland.
If he attacks Poland NATO will fight. Even if NATO sissies out America would come to Polands aid. We read history books here. And how can Putin expect victory going against this? http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/index.html Is it possible he would start a major war to regain his lost empire?
I wonder what he's thinking?
He knows that small ABM deployment would be almost useless against Russias advanced ICBM nuclear force. Any fool knows that. So the ABMs are just a pretext to resurrected Russian hegonomy over Eastern Europe and the former Euro-Asia states. Like I said earlier he wants the power and control only without the monthly bills of Empire coming in.
Its really a mistake to underestimate this guy and Russians in general. Russia hasnt produced so many Grand chess masters for nothing.
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We didn't destroy Iraq, Iraq is doing better than it ever has under Suddam Hussein.
I would hotly contend this point buddy.
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A war over Poland.. That'd be so absurd.
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What was the normal death toll in Iraq under Hussein if you add the dead because of lack of food and medicine?
Just food+medicine were thousands every year if I recall right.
So, even if Iraq is ugly, I guess life expectancy has gone up a bit...
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A war over Poland.. That'd be so absurd.
Thats been said about so many wars in history that all you have to do is keep the actual sentence and just replace the country name as each absurd war starts. " A war over _______.. That'd be so absurd." Just fill in the blank as the current absurdity warrants.
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Russian, I have a serious question for you. A while back you posted that you had been accepted for a USAF UPT slot.
(since I've been part of this board for many years and made some good friends here...let me inform you lads)
Yes....I've been selected....shocking, I know.
WOot.
Now to pass medical...finish OTS ....UTP .... :)
Here's the question: If you get your wings and get assigned to a fighter or fighter/bomber squadron and are ordered into action in a situation like this Georgia action, what are you going to do?
Suppose in 3 years you're in an F-16 unit that gets ordered to stop another Russian advance into Georgia? Are you going to follow orders and kill Russian tanks and aircraft or are you going to stand down?
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Thats been said about so many wars in history that all you have to do is keep the actual sentence and just replace the country name as each absurd war starts. " A war over _______.. That'd be so absurd." Just fill in the blank as the current absurdity warrants.
American war of independence... I'm saying a war mainly between the US and Russia, over missiles that Poland asked for partly for protection against Iran and mostly because of Russia's tantrum in Georgia... I think that's just absurd, given what it would spill out into, easily enough.
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American war of independence... I'm saying a war mainly between the US and Russia, over missiles that Poland asked for partly for protection against Iran and mostly because of Russia's tantrum in Georgia... I think that's just absurd, given what it would spill out into, easily enough.
Even that was absurd from an English point of view. Had England been a country that had a King with common sense he would have seen the absurdity of British policies in the New World. Many Yanks considered themselves loyal subjects of the crown and only rebelled due to the tyranny of British policy. In the end the Brits lost everything due to the absurdity in their foreign policy.
Excess pride is absurd. Most of all when power is in the hands of one. Look at Saddam, as absurd a fool as ever existed. We Yanks have a problem understanding men like him because power here is held by many here and everyone has to answer to sombody. Even a President does, congress, the voters, our Allies . Who does Putin really have to answer to?
With these recent developments there is a real possibility of a serious confrontation between Russia and the West/America. History insists such an absurdity is possible because all the future is is history on re-wind.
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Well this is all working out well for America, the american government not the people. The purpose of the missle shield was to create friction so that the existance of Nato could be justified so that the US can maintain influence and military presence in Europe. But this episode has proven much more effective to that end.
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All of Eastern Europe will be crying out for missile shield emplacements after this. A nice boost for your defence industry. :aok
How a missile shield is supposed to protect against all those ICBMs I don't know. Looks to be purely a political pawn in this game. I can see why Russia could feel agrieved on the subject.
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My Mother works in the morning. What she said was about evening news.
Actual truth?! In Western media about Russia?!
Russian Radio newcasts http://www.radio.sbs.com.au/language.php?language=Russian (http://www.radio.sbs.com.au/language.php?language=Russian) in Brisbane (93.3 FM) Mondays 11am -12noon Wednesdays 7pm-8pm Saturdays 3pm-4pm
At least in Australia we still have a choice
Tronsky
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They have a choice in Russia, Tronski. They can choose any radio station they want as long as it is Radio Moscow. :D
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Did I tell you guys about the dream I had last January? ;)
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They have a choice in Russia, Tronski. They can choose any radio station they want as long as it is Radio Moscow. :D
I have BBC World, CNN Intl, Euronews, plus French and German channels here.
The radio I usually listen to is Echo of Moscow, pro-Western right-wing "liberal" stuff.
Nice to hear that you can actually watch Russia Today.
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Nice to hear that you can actually watch Russia Today.
It's as bad as Fox News.
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Well this is all working out well for America, the american government not the people. The purpose of the missle shield was to create friction so that the existance of Nato could be justified so that the US can maintain influence and military presence in Europe. But this episode has proven much more effective to that end.
The purpose of the sheild? Well...here http://www.missilethreat.com/ . If anything it gives NATO options if an Iran confrontation developes. More reading on Iran.http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iran/index.html
An additional purpose would be acceptance by NATO and protection against the Empire that has crushed all of eastern Europe before.
But I believe even Europeans are leery about a Islamic Fundamentalist Theocracy/Dictatorship developing the ability to lob IRBMs, armed with WMDs, onto their cities unimpeded. By contrast, compared to these unwashed fanatics, the Russians are models of reason.
I mean what is this bearded lunatic running Iran has a dream one night and thinks God told him to shoot off a bunch of missiles???
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It's as bad as Fox News.
And that is saying something indeed
Tronsky
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If my understanding of the whole thing is correct, didn't Georgia start all this? And then Russia kicked them out? Sounds to me like the Georgians were trying to drag in the West and when that didn't happen they sued for peace and now the Russians are the bad guys?
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It's the old he said she said.
Georgians say the South Osetians separatists were attacking them and the Georgians countered.
Russians say the Georgians attacked South Osetian separatists and the Russians countered.
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They didn't stop with just South Ossetia. They grabbed Abkhazia and now occupy the strategic port of Poti in Georgia proper, not to mention Gori.
This isn't about South Ossetia anymore.
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See what you mean on the ol' he said she said, similar mess to the Balkans, Kind of like watching ch200 when the usual 'HO or not a HO" starts up, From a millitary point of view, I'd be Interested to hear if both sides were using the same equipment? And I was also surprised to see a Georgian Drone getting shot down, I never knew they were that adavnced, Unless these drone thingys are cheap on the market maybe.
Cheers
iTunes
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This isn't about South Ossetia anymore.
Lol! You and I knew that from the beginning. As someone pointed out, you don't have a couple of motorized divisions ready to jump off without doing a little pre-planning and deployment.
As for the rest, just a little "mission creep" comrade.
I guess by the justification offered by the Russian apologists here, the US can now mission creep into Iran's nuclear reactor system because the Russians have set a precedent right? :rofl I mean, the Russians did it so we can too, right?
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Lol! You and I knew that from the beginning. As someone pointed out, you don't have a couple of motorized divisions ready to jump off without doing a little pre-planning and deployment.
As for the rest, just a little "mission creep" comrade.
I guess by the justification offered by the Russian apologists here, the US can now mission creep into Iran's nuclear reactor system because the Russians have set a precedent right? :rofl I mean, the Russians did it so we can too, right?
You have to issue passports first through...
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....to anyone with a heartbeat.
The BS smokescreen has always been important to the Russians. They always pick their fig leaf well in advance, even if it doesn't really hide anything.
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They didn't stop with just South Ossetia. They grabbed Abkhazia and now occupy the strategic port of Poti in Georgia proper, not to mention Gori.
This isn't about South Ossetia anymore.
Poti had one Russian armed patrol a week ago. Abkhazs finally took upper Kodori gorge, without Russian assistance. Gory was inspected for left weapons, and now there are no Russian troops there.
Looks like you watch old BBC news.
"Russian tanks launched an attack on Tbilisi 12th time this week!!!" Just baiting I suppose :D
Georgian military is crushed completely, Russians secure SO border, it's all finished 3 days ago, if you didn't know. Tune to Russia Today, they work faster then BBC ;)
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....to anyone with a heartbeat.
The BS smokescreen has always been important to the Russians. They always pick their fig leaf well in advance, even if it doesn't really hide anything.
Now tell me your war criminals were right about WMD in Iraq.
BTW, Georgian pictures and videos of "Russian atrocities" are staged: http://blogs.yandex.ru/cachedcopy.xml?f=ab0cb809e21cb3aeb4a8acc83e71ab41&i=1241&m=http%3A%2F%2Fcommunity.livejournal.com%2Fgeorgia_war%2F349023.html
It's an interview with a "photo artist" on Echo of Moscow.
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See what you mean on the ol' he said she said, similar mess to the Balkans, Kind of like watching ch200 when the usual 'HO or not a HO" starts up, From a millitary point of view, I'd be Interested to hear if both sides were using the same equipment? And I was also surprised to see a Georgian Drone getting shot down, I never knew they were that adavnced, Unless these drone thingys are cheap on the market maybe.
Cheers
iTunes
Drones were sold to Georgia by Israel. Israel already declared that they don't supply arms to Georgia any more.
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Now tell me your war criminals were right about WMD in Iraq.
BTW, Georgian pictures and videos of "Russian atrocities" are staged: http://blogs.yandex.ru/cachedcopy.xml?f=ab0cb809e21cb3aeb4a8acc83e71ab41&i=1241&m=http%3A%2F%2Fcommunity.livejournal.com%2Fgeorgia_war%2F349023.html
It's an interview with a "photo artist" on Echo of Moscow.
Oh there definitely were WMDs in Iraq. The real question is what happened to them? I bet someone in Russia knows.
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http://lenta.ru/news/2008/08/15/saakrice/
Saakashvili signed yet another cease fire agreement :) He also accused Russians of multiple crimes like poisoning Victor Yuschenko and crucifying Jesus Christ.
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Hmm, Russia crushing the Georgian army?
There would be something really wrong if it were not so, Boroda.
However, Russia should not expect to be able to crush just anybody with conventional force...not today.
So, Russia was gambling right and trusting that the Georgians didn't get back-up.
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Oh there definitely were WMDs in Iraq. The real question is what happened to them? I bet someone in Russia knows.
I never thought it's all so bad. Could be impolite to question my opponent's mental state :(
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Hmm, Russia crushing the Georgian army?
There would be something really wrong if it were not so, Boroda.
However, Russia should not expect to be able to crush just anybody with conventional force...not today.
So, Russia was gambling right and trusting that the Georgians didn't get back-up.
We just showed some mass-murdering morons that we got tired of them crapping on our heads.
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I never thought it's all so bad. Could be impolite to question my opponent's mental state :(
So, you're saying that Saddam destroyed all his WMDs yet would not show proof to the UN? I guess he just wanted to be hanged huh? We should never have hemed and hawed for so many years over this giving him more than ample time to hide them in Iraq, Syria, or who knows where. I find it very difficult to believe Russia was not complicit in this.
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So, you're saying that Saddam destroyed all his WMDs yet would not show proof to the UN? I guess he just wanted to be hanged huh? We should never have hemed and hawed for so many years over this giving him more than ample time to hide them in Iraq, Syria, or who knows where. I find it very difficult to believe Russia was not complicit in this.
He didn't?! UN inspectors left Iraq only after US declared an attack.
I find it very difficult to believe the US attacked Iraq for some WMD, 20000km from mainland US. Your regime wanted Iraqi oil, and didn't mind killing a million civilians to get hold on it.
US aggression against Iraq was unprovoked and criminal. In this casew comparing US to Iran isn't in favor of US. Iran didn't do anything nearly compared to your crimes in Yugoslavia and Iraq. And remember, in Yugoslavia you directly supported terrorists. KLA was declared a "terrorist organization" by US congress in Autumn 1998.
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He didn't?! UN inspectors left Iraq only after US declared an attack.
I find it very difficult to believe the US attacked Iraq for some WMD, 20000km from mainland US. Your regime wanted Iraqi oil, and didn't mind killing a million civilians to get hold on it.
US aggression against Iraq was unprovoked and criminal. In this casew comparing US to Iran isn't in favor of US. Iran didn't do anything nearly compared to your crimes in Yugoslavia and Iraq. And remember, in Yugoslavia you directly supported terrorists. KLA was declared a "terrorist organization" by US congress in Autumn 1998.
You talk pretty tough with Reagan dead. :P
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You talk pretty tough with Reagan dead. :P
(http://www.congressionalgoldmedal.com/USSReaganAircraftCarrier.jpg)
Reagan lives on... Ukraine may have a few moorings available in Sevastopol for a port call.
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" Russians don't take a dump without a plan son"
:O
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I think they're after our bodily fluids.
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I find it very difficult to believe the US attacked Iraq for some WMD, 20000km from mainland US. Your regime wanted Iraqi oil, and didn't mind killing a million civilians to get hold on it.
don't worry, many americans felt the same way about the whole ordeal.
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Oh there definitely were WMDs in Iraq. The real question is what happened to them? I bet someone in Russia knows.
Quit pulling the wool over your eyes and wake up. No WMD's have been found because they didn't have any.
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ahhh, but they did. Bush's daddy has the receipt.
Cripes, I wish the whole episode never happened. I feel as used as Powells colon.
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"they did"
So let's see em! Wouldn't they have used them knowing how badly we'd lay the smackdown upon the second invasion?
No WMD's. Invading Iraq tops my list of dumb things the USA has done. Afghanistan was near the top of good things we were doing until we stopped caring and moved our focus to Iraq.
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"they did"
So let's see em! Wouldn't they have used them knowing how badly we'd lay the smackdown upon the second invasion?
No WMD's. Invading Iraq tops my list of dumb things the USA has done. Afghanistan was near the top of good things we were doing until we stopped caring and moved our focus to Iraq.
So you are saying that Saddam should still be alive and in control of "his people"?
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I never thought it's all so bad. Could be impolite to question my opponent's mental state
And yet you question our mental state all the time. Double standard......
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So you are saying that Saddam should still be alive and in control of "his people"?
Why not?
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"they did"
So let's see em! Wouldn't they have used them knowing how badly we'd lay the smackdown upon the second invasion?
No WMD's. Invading Iraq tops my list of dumb things the USA has done. Afghanistan was near the top of good things we were doing until we stopped caring and moved our focus to Iraq.
Iraq did at one point have chemical weapons. Their stockpile was at one point verified by UN weapons inspectors, to this day not all of that stockpile has been accounted for.
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"they did"
So let's see em! Wouldn't they have used them knowing how badly we'd lay the smackdown upon the second invasion?
No WMD's. Invading Iraq tops my list of dumb things the USA has done. Afghanistan was near the top of good things we were doing until we stopped caring and moved our focus to Iraq.
I don't see it possible to deny their possession of the stuff when we provided it to begin with. The evidence for possession and use is undeniable... ask the Kurds.
I don't disagree on Iraq turning into a debacle... but if Powell could be sucked in, then I guess I should stop wailing about it and try to get behind getting the busted china shop fixed up. Meanwhile, we're up to our bellybutton in mistakes in Iraq and Afghanistan.
So, whadda think we oughta do now?
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Lol! You and I knew that from the beginning. As someone pointed out, you don't have a couple of motorized divisions ready to jump off without doing a little pre-planning and deployment.
As for the rest, just a little "mission creep" comrade.
I guess by the justification offered by the Russian apologists here, the US can now mission creep into Iran's nuclear reactor system because the Russians have set a precedent right? :rofl I mean, the Russians did it so we can too, right?
I would not want to gamble, Toad, that the Russians' won't come to Irans' aid, in the way we pretty much didn't in Georgia's. Oh, we might get away with a quick surgical strike on a Reactor, mind you, but not a regular ground incursion. Not anymore, anyway. Putin's talk on both the Ukraine: http://unian.net/eng/news/news-267028.html (http://unian.net/eng/news/news-267028.html) and their threats' to Poland about it's missile shield have betrayed their ambitions'...Let alone their recent acts' in Georgia. If Putin were faced with the same situation, if he were in Bush's shoes, I don't think he would have hesitated to put active combat forces' in-country, In as little time after the initial invasion started as possible. He seems' very skilled in the political art of 'brinksmanship'.
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So you are saying that Saddam should still be alive and in control of "his people"?
At least he didn't kill 10% of his population in 5 years like "liberators" did, and didn't have never-ending civil war and humanitarian catastrophe.
"Democracy" can't be brought by cruise missiles and carpet-bombings. It was up to Iraqi people, just like Saakashvili is up to Georgians now. Every nation deserves it's government.
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We just showed some mass-murdering morons that we got tired of them crapping on our heads.
Hehe. Where were your heads? In Georgia?
Would you feel it normal if Poland entered Russia because of the Russians having a beat at some county riots at the Polish border?
(And withing Russia, remember, South Ossetia is a part of Georgia)
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Every nation deserves it's government.
LOL That makes my day.
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Hehe. Where were your heads? In Georgia?
Would you feel it normal if Poland entered Russia because of the Russians having a beat at some county riots at the Polish border?
(And withing Russia, remember, South Ossetia is a part of Georgia)
You miss my point completely.
The _only_ reason for all this propaganda hype with "free Western media" shutting up victims trying to speak up, stopping Russian news and all things is that _no_one_ ever thought that Russia will dare to use military force against aggressors and protect it's citizens, instead of just shaking air and watching US puppets kill Russian peacekeepers, internationally recognized in that area.
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And remember, in Yugoslavia you directly supported terrorists. KLA was declared a "terrorist organization" by US congress in Autumn 1998.
Wrong again Comrade. NATO (not just America, all of NATO) stopped the genocide and ethnic cleansing that was going on in Kosovo. The west was not supporting the terrorists and would not have even gotten involved if it hadn't been for the genocide and ethnic cleansing that was going on. You just can't seem to get that in your head that your buddies the Serbians were in the wrong. Of course, the same kind of genocide/ethnic cleansing crap had been happening all over the former Yugoslavia for years. That doesn't excuse what Serbia was doing in Kosovo and I am of the opinion that something should have been done much sooner to stop those crimes against humanity.
Just a heads up, Yugoslavia doesn't exist anymore, and didn't when NATO intervened in Kosovo. Why you act all butthurt over Kosovo is beyond me simply because the genocide and ethic cleansing that was going on was well documented.
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At least he didn't kill 10% of his population in 5 years like "liberators" did, and didn't have never-ending civil war and humanitarian catastrophe.
"Democracy" can't be brought by cruise missiles and carpet-bombings. It was up to Iraqi people, just like Saakashvili is up to Georgians now. Every nation deserves it's government.
No one deserves a government where genecide is enforced. He was a mass murderer and was tried by his own people. Found guilty and sentenced accordingly. The U.S. had the power to arrest him.
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You miss my point completely.
The _only_ reason for all this propaganda hype with "free Western media" shutting up victims trying to speak up, stopping Russian news and all things is that _no_one_ ever thought that Russia will dare to use military force against aggressors and protect it's citizens, instead of just shaking air and watching US puppets kill Russian peacekeepers, internationally recognized in that area.
Well, you sure showed us the error of our modern ways... imagine, the utter stupidity of the west, to assume that russia would pursue diplomatic means of securing it's interests in the region!
Now we get to watch 'russian peacekeepers' on western tv calmly stand by while osset thieves commit murder, robbery, rape.
classic... freakin classic russian diplomacy.
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UN inspectors left Iraq only after US declared an attack.
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The inspectors were being denied access to required facilities for years by Hussein all to help create the appearance that he was developing WMDs. It was a bad call on Husseins part, he eventually met his death at the end of a hangmans rope. I know Hussein was a good friend of the soviets but thats just the way the ball bounced.
I find it very difficult to believe the US attacked Iraq for some WMD, 20000km from mainland US. Your regime wanted Iraqi oil, and didn't mind killing a million civilians to get hold on it.
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We attacked Iraq for many reasons, no? We wanted to secure free flow of oil to global markets (which it is doing today), We wanted to punish Hussein for being wicked cruel soviet style dictator (which we did). We wanted to be sure Hussein was not developing WMDs (he was deceiving the world into believing that he was, so we went and found out for sure). We wanted to insert 150,000 combat troops into the very center of the armpit of the earth, the middle east, to attract terrorists scum like bugs to a bug zapper......I would guess 80,000-100,000 thousand of them have died. Your nonsensical number one million civilians is genuine soviet style vodka enhanced hyperbole at its worst, or best......depending.
Aggression against Iraq was unprovoked and criminal.
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It was lawful sanctioned by both the US congress and the United Nations.
Iran didn't do anything nearly compared to your crimes in Yugoslavia and Iraq.
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silly boroda, its not about what Iran "has done" with russian supplied nuclear technology, it about what the "WILL DO" with it if allowed to. If Puten wants to make war with the US over Iran or Israel he better be prepared to experience mutually assured destruction, because that system is still in place and ready to go.
And remember, in Yugoslavia you directly supported terrorists. KLA was declared a "terrorist organization" by US congress in Autumn 1998.
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Could be...who were these "terrorists" killing at the time we were supporting them?
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I don't see it possible to deny their possession of the stuff when we provided it to begin with.
Thats not entirely accurate Hang. ;)
It is true that we sold Iraq dual-use chemicals but so did lots of other countries and we weren't even the biggest supplier. Then, when we found out he was using chemical weapons, we stopped the sale of all chemicals that could be used in the manufacture of weapons. Also, iirc, the equipment to manufacture the weapons came from western europe.
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Another round of insults... This is pointless.
Dimka,
I will have to say, again this is Alex, that I’m a very Marxist Military Officer, meaning, I do not vote. The reason I’m like this is because I am an extension of my politicians and I have a personal feeling that I cannot do my job to the best of my ability if I show favoritism to one party. Brain washed no, but I have a duty to my Commander In-Chief and my Soldiers to bring them home safely or die trying! Yes, I took my work very seriously. Regardless of who enters office, I will do their bidding. As an Officer, you are taught the acronym DIME. Diplomatic, Information, Military and Economics, of course I represent the M. However, I will say that I feel we are the last resort!
The largest complaint I have about our Politicians is the fact that we do not educate our POTUS to the same level as our Military Generals, when it comes to initiating the M. I know that we have civilians in charge so that America will not become the next Roman Empire, and I agree with that, but a little education never hurt anyone. There is a difference in being a lawyer versus being a Commander in a field of battle.
I don’t know what it would have been like, sitting in the Oval Office on Sep 11, 2001. I don’t believe that I could have made a better decision than President Bush. I know with my security clearance, I still don’t know everything! I have to believe someone when they say that Iraq had Chemical Weapons, since they used them against Iran! So how would it feel sitting there, having all your top aids tell you this is what we need to do? America in general wanted Blood. If I remember correctly, both the House and the Senate agreed to the war! But what would you have done, sitting there and someone just killed your sons and daughters? I for one love my country and will do whatever it takes to keep her safe! If I make a mistake, I’m sorry!
But my ending point to you and perhaps the most important one for you to take is this: since you are going from Enlisted to Officer in a very short time - you really need to take a hard look at where you stand. You are an instrument of policy for the United States of America. You do not have the luxury of deciding on the rationality of that policy. If you cannot be comfortable with that responsability - you better take a hard look at your chosen profession my friend.
Best quote ever
"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." President Theodore Roosevelt “Citizenship in a Republic” 1910.
Regards,
Wolf
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So you are saying that Saddam should still be alive and in control of "his people"?
I guess I am. If the U.S.A. is going to play world police we've got a lot of countries to invade. African warlords using chirldren warriors, the Burma Junta slaughtering peacefully protesting monks, etc. etc. etc.
Afghanistan harbored and worked hand in hand with the terrorists who hijacked and flew planes into the WTC, Pentagon, and probably tried for the White House. Iraq had no hand in this.
All we did by invading Iraq was begin another fight we have no clear way to exit (ala Vietnam), open a new front for terroists to train and work in (arguably spreading islamic-fanatical influence), and weaken our credibility worldwide.
I won't argue that Saddam was an evil man. But I will argue that it wasn't our job and we're crazy for opening that can of worms.
<S> froggy
p.s. neener neener neener, you can't edit this post :P
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So you are saying that Saddam should still be alive and in control of "his people"?
Keeping him in power, and bringing him back under our "wing", so to speak (we helped to put him in power in the first place) would have been a better long-term solution to our geopolitical problems' in the region than what we have today. You see, we tolerated him being a dictator because admittadly, Dictators' do have some advantages. He could act swiftly and unilaterally in times' of need. For example, with Iranian Nuclear ambitions' on the rise again, at the moment, our options' are kinda screwed. Apart from some kind of overt U.S. military act, what else can we do? Maybe we could goad the Isreali's into hitting those target's for us. However, it's not as simple as Osirak in the 1980's...The Iranian's have a dozen or more facilities, spread out over a larger area, at the extreme limit's of the range of Isreali-based strike fighters. And don't forget, now you have a resurgent Russia, which is now determined to try to act against us in our foreign policies', that would most likely spring to Irans' aid.
However...with Saddam still there, we could get HIM to do this for us instead. Being another Arab war would give the Russian's little precedent for direct intervention themselves. We could just remind Saddam that even thought the ground conflict was important, that he's gonna want to make sure that he sends' his airforce to kill all of the Iranian Nuclear weapons' related production facilities at the same time. We could make our real-time satellite recon satellites' available for this task, and help him make sure everything's done right.
Now I do know that Saddam was brutal and ruthless. He did kill thousands' of his own people. But if the unrest we see of people in the region is any indicator, you start to see that it might be hard to rule there on a pacifist basis. And one other advantage of having him there, is that he would have been there right now, and all of our troops' that are currently garrisoning Iraq would be free for deployments' in other parts' of the world. Like Georgia, or the Ukraine.
I read somewhere once, on the subject of the U.S. supporting dictators' in support of it's interests' abroad, that whilst they may have gov't. death squads, or gas their own people, that it kept americans' from fighting and dying so that they could still do the same things' to each other later on. When you look at the 4,000+ American lives' that have been lost in Iraq, and consider that they are still blowing each other up in market places' today, you can see where that statement eerily rings' true.
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(we helped to put him in power in the first place)
I have not seen any information that indicates we helped put Saddam in power.
Links Please!
:D
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I guess I am. If the U.S.A. is going to play world police we've got a lot of countries to invade. African warlords using chirldren warriors, the Burma Junta slaughtering peacefully protesting monks, etc. etc. etc.
Afghanistan harbored and worked hand in hand with the terrorists who hijacked and flew planes into the WTC, Pentagon, and probably tried for the White House. Iraq had no hand in this.
All we did by invading Iraq was begin another fight we have no clear way to exit (ala Vietnam), open a new front for terroists to train and work in (arguably spreading islamic-fanatical influence), and weaken our credibility worldwide.
I won't argue that Saddam was an evil man. But I will argue that it wasn't our job and we're crazy for opening that can of worms.
<S> froggy
p.s. neener neener neener, you can't edit this post :P
-We both agree Saddam was an evil person/ murderer. If it wasn't our job, then who's job was it? Hint; it was someone who had the power to arrest him.
-Iraq does have a clear way out. Once they can secure themeselves, we can leave, until then, we shall protect them, as we did to Japan for 50 years after WWII.
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For example, with Iranian Nuclear ambitions' on the rise again, at the moment, our options' are kinda screwed. Apart from some kind of overt U.S. military act, what else can we do? Maybe we could goad the Isreali's into hitting those target's for us.
You're kidding right? If we hadn't been tugging on the reins Israel would already have decimated Iran's dreams of nuclear grandeur.
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You're kidding right? If we hadn't been tugging on the reins Israel would already have decimated Iran's dreams of nuclear grandeur.
Probably would've turned Iran into a Glass Parking lot for a new WalMart Super center....
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-We both agree Saddam was an evil person/ murderer. If it wasn't our job, then who's job was it? Hint; it was someone who had the power to arrest him.
The citizens'.
200 years ago the United States fought for independence from the most powerful country in the world, and won, because we didn't like the way they taxed us.
The most we should have done in that situation was helped out a resistance movement with equipment and maybe training. It is not America's job to play world police.
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The citizens'.
200 years ago the United States fought for independence from the most powerful country in the world, and won, because we didn't like the way they taxed us.
The most we should have done in that situation was helped out a resistance movement with equipment and maybe training. It is not America's job to play world police.
Then who's job is it? The U.N.? What if they are not doing their job?
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IMO it's no one's job. Countries should deal with their internal affairs on their own.
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The citizens'.
200 years ago the United States fought for independence from the most powerful country in the world, and won, because we didn't like the way they taxed us.
The most we should have done in that situation was helped out a resistance movement with equipment and maybe training. It is not America's job to play world police.
You are forgetting that the French not only supplied weapons and ammunition but also an entire fleet for a blockade. The blockade ensured that Cornwallis and his army could not escape. Without outside help the American Revolution would not have ended when it did.
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The most we should have done in that situation was helped out a resistance movement with equipment and maybe training. It is not America's job to play world police.
We have a habit to give lip service to spreading democracy but when it's challenged, we usually just sit back and watch. Just look at we did with Hungary in the 1950s when they tried to throw out the Soviets and were ultimately crushed.
ack-ack
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We have a habit to give lip service to spreading democracy but when it's challenged, we usually just sit back and watch. Just look at we did with Hungary in the 1950s when they tried to throw out the Soviets and were ultimately crushed.
ack-ack
The Hungarians did throw out the Soviet garrison for a few days. Then new Soviet units arrived from the east and crushed the Hungarian uprising.
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It is not America's job to play world police.
But we're blood thirsty Nazis if we dont, and we're blood thirsty Nazis if we do. One person gets killed because of collateral damage, and we're awful. If we dont invade and 1000 people are killed, we're awful. :rolleyes:
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I have not seen any information that indicates we helped put Saddam in power.
Links Please!
:D
Revolutionary sentiment was characteristic of the era in Iraq and throughout the Middle East. In Iraq progressives and socialists assailed traditional political elites (colonial era bureaucrats and landowners, wealthy merchants and tribal chiefs, monarchists).[12] Moreover, the pan-Arab nationalism of Gamal Abdel Nasser in Egypt would profoundly influence young Ba'athists like Saddam. The rise of Nasser foreshadowed a wave of revolutions throughout the Middle East in the 1950s and 1960s, which would see the collapse of the monarchies of Iraq, Egypt, and Libya. Nasser inspired nationalists throughout the Middle East for standing up to the British and the French during the Suez Crisis of 1956, and for striving to modernize Egypt and unite the Arab world politically. (Humphreys, 68)
In 1958, a year after Saddam had joined the Ba'ath party, army officers led by General Abdul Karim Qassim overthrew Faisal II of Iraq. The Ba'athists opposed the new government, and in 1959, Saddam was involved in the attempted United States-backed plot to assassinate Qassim.[13]
Rise to power
Saddam Hussein after the successful 1963 Ba'ath party coup
Saddam Hussein in Cairo after fleeing there following the failed assassination attempt against QassimArmy officers with ties to the Ba'ath Party overthrew Qassim in a coup in 1963. Ba'athist leaders were appointed to the cabinet and Abdul Salam Arif became president. Arif dismissed and arrested the Ba'athist leaders later that year. Saddam returned to Iraq, but was imprisoned in 1964. Just prior to his imprisonment and until 1968, Saddam held the position of Ba'ath party secretary.[14] He escaped prison in 1967 and quickly became a leading member of the party. In 1968, Saddam participated in a bloodless coup led by Ahmad Hassan al-Bakr that overthrew Abdul Rahman Arif. Al-Bakr was named president and Saddam was named his deputy, and deputy chairman of the Baathist Revolutionary Command Council. According to biographers, Saddam never forgot the tensions within the first Ba'athist government, which formed the basis for his measures to promote Ba'ath party unity as well as his resolve to maintain power and programs to ensure social stability.
Various U.S. diplomats and intelligence officials have asserted that Saddam was strongly linked with the CIA, and that U.S. intelligence, under President John F. Kennedy, helped Saddam's party seize power for the first time in 1963. [15] [16]
Saddam Hussein in the past was seen by U.S. intelligence services as a bulwark of anti-communism in the 1960s and 1970s.[16] His first contacts with U.S. officials date back to 1959, when he was part of a CIA-authorized six-man squad tasked with ousting then Iraqi Prime Minister Abdul Karim Qassim.[17]
Although Saddam was al-Bakr's deputy, he was a strong behind-the-scenes party politician. Al-Bakr was the older and more prestigious of the two, but by 1969 Saddam Hussein clearly had become the moving force behind the party.
Now, due to it's nature of having open-editing, that clip from Wikipedia should most likely be taken with a grain of salt. You don't know how biased someone might be whenever they make Wiki-entries. However, if you want to take a look at the whole page, here it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein)
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You're kidding right? If we hadn't been tugging on the reins Israel would already have decimated Iran's dreams of nuclear grandeur.
I don't know. I'm trying to figure out why instead of keeping the element of suprise and just doing it, they turned around and just made everything public, turning it into a threat. There might be some other factors' at work there, which we might not be priivy to know.
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Interesting Frode.
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I don't know. I'm trying to figure out why instead of keeping the element of suprise and just doing it, they turned around and just made everything public, turning it into a threat. There might be some other factors' at work there, which we might not be priivy to know.
I'm thinking it's called fair warning. Of course I'm sure Israel would rather not go to war with Iran but they sure don't want to stand idly by and let a country that has threatened to wipe them off the map several times develop the real ability to make good on said threat.
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The Hungarians did throw out the Soviet garrison for a few days. Then new Soviet units arrived from the east and crushed the Hungarian uprising.
My comment was referencing this episode during the Hungarian revolt.
Yet Washington's role in the Hungarian revolution soon became mired in controversy. One of the most successful weapons in the East-West battle for the hearts and minds of Eastern Europe was the CIA-administered Radio Free Europe. But in the wake of the uprising, RFE's broadcasts into Hungary sometimes took on a much more aggressive tone, encouraging the rebels to believe that Western support was imminent, and even giving tactical advice on how to fight the Soviets. The hopes that were raised, then dashed, by these broadcasts cast an even darker shadow over the Hungarian tragedy that leaves many Hungarians embittered to this day.
ack-ack
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Yet Washington's role in the Hungarian revolution soon became mired in controversy. One of the most successful weapons in the East-West battle for the hearts and minds of Eastern Europe was the CIA-administered Radio Free Europe. But in the wake of the uprising, RFE's broadcasts into Hungary sometimes took on a much more aggressive tone, encouraging the rebels to believe that Western support was imminent, and even giving tactical advice on how to fight the Soviets. The hopes that were raised, then dashed, by these broadcasts cast an even darker shadow over the Hungarian tragedy that leaves many Hungarians embittered to this day.
I know that happened as well. Sad that the Hungarian revolution held out so long simply because they thought American troops were on the way to help when in fact, there was no help coming. Lives were lost that didn't need to be lost.
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The Hungarians did throw out the Soviet garrison for a few days. Then new Soviet units arrived from the east and crushed the Hungarian uprising.
There was a full-scale civil war in Hungary, and USSR sent troops against insurgents who started hanging Soviet people on lamp posts.
If Mexico will start doing so to US citizens there (on vacation or working) - what should be the US reactions
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There was a full-scale civil war in Hungary, and USSR sent troops against insurgents who started hanging Soviet people on lamp posts.
The *Soviets* who were hung in Hungary were as I recall, Hungarians who had been colaborating with the Soviets. These people were viewed as traitors to Hungary and as such were executed.
The Soviets also used MiG's to bomb the Hungarian forces, tanks fired at buildings, blowing them apart, just because they saw movement in the building. The Soviets had to bring in troops from the east because the garrison troops had gotten to know the Hungarians and weren't ruthless enough.
Don't start spewing your Soviet propaganda on this one Boroda. I've read many of the eyewitness accounts from participants who escaped during the aftermath. What the Soviets did in Budapest was reprehensible.
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I've been to Budapest and the unassuming block used by the Soviets to kill and torture. Everyone should see those cells. They have part of the museum dedicated to the rising. It's very moving. The West betrayed them.
Toad - I was replying to the post before yours. Regardless of the state of readiness of the Russian troops, I think Russia had legitimate grounds to push Georgian forcces out. They then over stepped the line of credulity and are now currentlytaking the piss, regardless of what comrade boroda believes. :D
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(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/007rusty/popcorn.gif)
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Toad - I was replying to the post before yours. Regardless of the state of readiness of the Russian troops, I think Russia had legitimate grounds to push Georgian forcces out.
Dowding, whomever started shooting first is still in dispute. The Georgian's claim a response to seperatist' artillery.
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I concede that point. However, my point is that there is a line of credulity up to which certain circumstances are plausible. The Russians have overstepped that line by occupying undisputed Georgian territory, particularly via Abkhazia.
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The West betrayed them.
Yes we did and it is a shame that we have to live with.
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The *Soviets* who were hung in Hungary were as I recall, Hungarians who had been colaborating with the Soviets. These people were viewed as traitors to Hungary and as such were executed.
The Soviets also used MiG's to bomb the Hungarian forces, tanks fired at buildings, blowing them apart, just because they saw movement in the building. The Soviets had to bring in troops from the east because the garrison troops had gotten to know the Hungarians and weren't ruthless enough.
Don't start spewing your Soviet propaganda on this one Boroda. I've read many of the eyewitness accounts from participants who escaped during the aftermath. What the Soviets did in Budapest was reprehensible.
You are repeating the same cold-war crap you have in your brains. I have talked to people who have been there and have read enough on that sad story.
Insurgents were deliberately executing Soviet citizens. Just like that Georgian moron Saakashvili they thought West will support them. And also keep in mind that there was no de-nazification in Hungary, so many insurgents were nazis and their collaborators.
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I concede that point. However, my point is that there is a line of credulity up to which certain circumstances are plausible. The Russians have overstepped that line by occupying undisputed Georgian territory, particularly via Abkhazia.
There are no Russian troops operating outside DMZ in Abkhazia that peacekeepers secure.
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The Russians have overstepped that line by occupying undisputed Georgian territory, particularly via Abkhazia.
Indeed, the Russian column that moved through Abkhazia has been all but forgotten in this thread. That move by the Russians really kills any credibility they might have had if they had only forced the Georgians out of South Ossetia. Instead, they appear as liars and cheats.
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Just like that Georgian moron Saakashvili they thought West will support them. And also keep in mind that there was no de-nazification in Hungary, so many insurgents were nazis and their collaborators.
You keep missing the point, OSETIA IS PART OF GEORGIA
Here, I'll say it again for you to understand.
OSETIA IS PART OF GEORGIA
Loud enough for ya?
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South Ossetia declared their independence from Georgia over 10 years ago.
South Ossetia is as much a part of Georgia as the Colonies were a part of Britain on July 5, 1776.
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You are repeating the same cold-war crap you have in your brains. I have talked to people who have been there and have read enough on that sad story.
Insurgents were deliberately executing Soviet citizens. Just like that Georgian moron Saakashvili they thought West will support them. And also keep in mind that there was no de-nazification in Hungary, so many insurgents were nazis and their collaborators.
You obviously have NOT read eyewitness accounts from Hungarians who were there. I have, and their eyewitness accounts are not Cold War crap. The Soviet assault on Budapest was absolutely ruthless. Most of the insurgents in Budapest (which is where the insurgency took place) were students.
Was the USSR handing out passports in Hungary in 1956 also? :rofl Your lies and outright fabrications are pretty ridiculous.
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Indeed, the Russian column that moved through Abkhazia has been all but forgotten in this thread. That move by the Russians really kills any credibility they might have had if they had only forced the Georgians out of South Ossetia. Instead, they appear as liars and cheats.
Not Russian, Abkhazian.
They restored order in upper Kodori gorge, that is Abkhazian land. Russian peacekeepers are not involved in Abkhazia. Check your sources. They scream 3 times a day that Russians are surrounding Tbilisi.
Abkhazia and S.O. have a mutual military assistance treaty.
I have posted here an estimation on GE military capacity and probable scenario, only in case of attack on Abkhazia. Let me look...
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You are repeating the same cold-war crap you have in your brains.
mirror, meet boroda. Boroda, this is mirror
"You are repeating the same cold-war crap you have in your brains."
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South Ossetia declared their independence from Georgia over 10 years ago.
South Ossetia is as much a part of Georgia as the Colonies were a part of Britain on July 5, 1776.
They arent recognized as a country by most countries. If they want independance, then why should Russia help them? Russia would just gobble them up.
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South Ossetia declared their independence from Georgia over 10 years ago.
South Ossetia is as much a part of Georgia as the Colonies were a part of Britain on July 5, 1776.
The world doesn't work the same way it did in 1776. ;)
No country, not even Russia has recognized the independence of South Ossetia......straw man.
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They arent recognized as a country by most countries. If they want independance, then why should Russia help them? Russia would just gobble them up.
South Ossetia is not recognized as a country by ANY country right now. Russia is contemplating such a move however.
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A few days ago I was in the local tavern blowin' the froth off a few, and this guy behind me starts hittin himself and pretty hard too.
So I took out my gun and shot him.
Told the police when they arrived what happened and they agreed with me and said that if I hadn't killed him, he would probably still be hitting himself
He started it.
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They arent recognized as a country by most countries. If they want independance, then why should Russia help them? Russia would just gobble them up.
Why should France have supported the United States?
No country, not even Russia has recognized the independence of South Ossetia......
This is rather ironic :)
Out of curiosity, there any motivation for Russia to do what they've done other than support South Ossetia's independence?
BTW,
According to the Tskhinvali election authorities, the referendum turned out a majority for independence from Georgia where 99% of South Ossetian voters supported independence and the turnout for the vote was 95%
Seems like Russia's decision is supporting democracy ;)
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boroda - is this the same DMZ that included Poland and half of Germany not so long ago?
BBC correspondants have reported Russian forces at the Naval Dockyard at Poti.
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OSETIA IS PART OF GEORGIA
KOSOVO IS A PART OF SERBIA
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Why should France have supported the United States?
Cause they wanted to piss off King George.
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KOSOVO IS A PART OF SERBIA
Weren't you pissed off when NATO went into Kosovo?
sniff.... I smell a double standard
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Loud noises!1
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KOSOVO IS A PART OF SERBIA
not any more, comrade. :)
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A few days ago I was in the local tavern blowin' the froth off a few, and this guy behind me starts hittin himself and pretty hard too.
So I took out my gun and shot him.
Told the police when they arrived what happened and they agreed with me and said that if I hadn't killed him, he would probably still be hitting himself
He started it.
Funniest simile I've seen yet... and so damn on the money.
<S!>
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not any more, comrade. :)
So South Ossetia isn't part of Georgia any more. They had 2 or 3 referendums on that, were genocided twice in 1990s, looks like they got fed up with "democratisation".
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we ain't done yet. looks like georgia wants missile defense system. Copies of poland deal are in Tblisi now, looks like they want on-board.
looks like you guys have hardened the resolve of eastern europe against russian pirates.
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So South Ossetia isn't part of Georgia any more. They had 2 or 3 referendums on that, were genocided twice in 1990s, looks like they got fed up with "democratisation".
If they were in fact....genocided.....they wouldn't exist anymore.
There is a reason those referendums aren't recognized. ;)
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we ain't done yet. looks like georgia wants missile defense system. Copies of poland deal are in Tblisi now, looks like they want on-board.
looks like you guys have hardened the resolve of eastern europe against russian pirates.
Will make them a good target for tactical missiles.
Some regimes are just stupid enough to think someone will go to war for them, only because they deploy something they hope sounds dangerous to their master's foe.
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I been reading this thread since it started.....
Borada...and Russian for that matter......you guys are truly priceless.
There is a HUGE cazm(sp.) between your country and ours. If you guys are truly a reflection of your citizens....We truly ought to be at the ready to just kick your a** someday. I realise that the media is what it is....but my lord the differances in beliefs are stunning. The differance in history and the way its veiwed is amazing. I thought the U.S. and Euro's were differant....you guys are so far removed it's no wonder you have no care of what your doing.
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Will make them a good target for tactical missiles.
Some regimes are just stupid enough to think someone will go to war for them, only because they deploy something they hope sounds dangerous to their master's foe.
So you're saying...It's ok to pull out a gun, and shoot the guy who wants' to put on a bulletproof vest (but does not have a gun of his own) ?????
BTW, that action would be the start of a widespread world war that you derided Hangtime and others' about earlier in this thread. If the agreement is a mirror copy of Poland's, then you would be attacking U.S. troops' by shooting any missiles' at Georgia.
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So you're saying...It's ok to pull out a gun, and shoot the guy who wants' to put on a bulletproof vest (but does not have a gun of his own) ?????
BTW, that action would be the start of a widespread world war that you derided Hangtime and others' about earlier in this thread. If the agreement is a mirror copy of Poland's, then you would be attacking U.S. troops' by shooting any missiles' at Georgia.
Sure, ABM bases should be eliminated right before a massive launch. Deploying them within tactical range from Russia isn't a wise thing. Someone is still too overconfident.
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Will make them a good target for tactical missiles.
Some regimes are just stupid enough to think someone will go to war for them, only because they deploy something they hope sounds dangerous to their master's foe.
Interesting. How nice, and Russian, of you, Boroda, to offer thinly veiled threats to other countries. How perfectly typical of the old Soviet Union to say they are entitled to tell a sovereign nation that said sovereign nation has no right to acquire a means to DEFEND itself, and that the old Soviet union will invade and conquer them if they do.
What I want to know is just what the Hell gives Russia the right to decide what DEFENSIVE capabilities another nation is ALLOWED to have? I suppose nations the old Soviet Union held under their boot are not entitled to be able to defend themselves, or prevent the Soviet union from conquering and enslaving them again.
Oh, and don't start in with B.S. about Iran needing nukes to defend itself, because that is all that is, B.S., they haven't needed nukes before, and don't now.
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So you're saying...It's ok to pull out a gun, and shoot the guy who wants' to put on a bulletproof vest (but does not have a gun of his own) ?????
BTW, that action would be the start of a widespread world war that you derided Hangtime and others' about earlier in this thread. If the agreement is a mirror copy of Poland's, then you would be attacking U.S. troops' by shooting any missiles' at Georgia.
Sure it is. We're talking about Russia, err, the old Soviet Union here. What ever they want to do can be justified in their eyes, because the rest of the world is against them, and refuses to submit to being enslaved by their revived empire.
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I been reading this thread since it started.....
Borada...and Russian for that matter......you guys are truly priceless.
There is a HUGE cazm(sp.) between your country and ours. If you guys are truly a reflection of your citizens....We truly ought to be at the ready to just kick your a** someday. I realise that the media is what it is....but my lord the differances in beliefs are stunning. The differance in history and the way its veiwed is amazing. I thought the U.S. and Euro's were differant....you guys are so far removed it's no wonder you have no care of what your doing.
I have a strange feeling reading all this crap here. It seems to me that most of you guys are absolutely insane or your propaganda totally has you.
You speak about "free speech" and shut down Russian media and even witnesses from Ossetia on your TV.
Look, I started this thread 2 hours after Georgians attacked Tskhinval and Russian peacekeeping batallion stationed there, and their TV showed MLRS shooting there. 14 hours before Russian reinforcements entered Tskhinval, and for this 15 hours Ossetian militants and what remained from Russian peacekeepers held Georgian tank corps. As usual you support mass-murderers like Pol Pot... That's sad.
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Another round of insults... This is pointless.
I never insulted you. I just took your quotes as your "thrown gauntlet" and knocked you upside the head with it. I deal with FACTS, not "someone's opinion".
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omg :huh
As usual you support mass-murderers like Pol Pot... That's sad.
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Interesting. How nice, and Russian, of you, Boroda, to offer thinly veiled threats to other countries. How perfectly typical of the old Soviet Union to say they are entitled to tell a sovereign nation that said sovereign nation has no right to acquire a means to DEFEND itself, and that the old Soviet union will invade and conquer them if they do.
What I want to know is just what the Hell gives Russia the right to decide what DEFENSIVE capabilities another nation is ALLOWED to have? I suppose nations the old Soviet Union held under their boot are not entitled to be able to defend themselves, or prevent the Soviet union from conquering and enslaving them again.
Oh, and don't start in with B.S. about Iran needing nukes to defend itself, because that is all that is, B.S., they haven't needed nukes before, and don't now.
No one who doesn't possess nuclear weapons can guarantee that he's not going to be "liberated" and "democratized".
Other nation wants to host weapons that are supposed to limit our retalliation strike capability, so this "defence" is a first target in case we'll be forced to retalliate.
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omg :huh
Didn't you know that he was a US best friend back in 1975 and a last hope against evil Vietnamese?...
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Russians are just extra-paranoid because pretty much everybody has tried to invade them at some point.
Ironically, the US never has, yet we have absolutely no trust for each other. It's sickly funny.
and Boroda, Pol Pot was trying for perfect communism. Not quite something your average American is going to support.
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wow were did you get that from????
Didn't you know that he was a US best friend back in 1975 and a last hope against evil Vietnamese?...
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Other nation wants to host weapons that are supposed to limit our retalliation strike capability,
It is also a weapon that limits a first strike capability. That is it's intent. There is no fear of a US first strike with nuclear weapons, regardless of how Soviet propaganda has brain washed you. ;)
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I have a strange feeling reading all this crap here. It seems to me that most of you guys are absolutely insane or your propaganda totally has you.
You speak about "free speech" and shut down Russian media and even witnesses from Ossetia on your TV.
Look, I started this thread 2 hours after Georgians attacked Tskhinval and Russian peacekeeping batallion stationed there, and their TV showed MLRS shooting there. 14 hours before Russian reinforcements entered Tskhinval, and for this 15 hours Ossetian militants and what remained from Russian peacekeepers held Georgian tank corps. As usual you support mass-murderers like Pol Pot... That's sad.
Your impossible....You and I'm thinking MOST of your country are looking for a fight..a BIG one from reports such as the one posted of a General in your army making statements about the use of Nukes is sanctioned by your government.
You've stated here , that it was Russias intent to "Protect" its citizens.....yet that simple AMOUNT of force used shows you were MORE than just reacting to something. It's obvious to anyone with a lick of common sense that Russia planned this. AND , have marched WAY past just protecting.
Your full of ****...plain and simple...and I personally think your entire government and country is full of liars and cheats. Much like the Senate and House here....but thats another discussion.
Reports here are confliting as to who started this whole fight....one thing that any one can see however is the response. Congrats on pulling the wool over the worlds eyes and getting away with it....cause you did basically. Just beware of the future.....this lil act will more than likely come back to bite your country in the ***.
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No one who doesn't possess nuclear weapons can guarantee that he's not going to be "liberated" and "democratized".
Other nation wants to host weapons that are supposed to limit our retalliation strike capability, so this "defence" is a first target in case we'll be forced to retalliate.
Forced to retaliate for what? :rolleyes: YOU are the only ones threatening anyone! And this isn't about retaliation, either. YOUR general is threatening to strike FIRST, NOW, just for them HAVING a defensive system in their country.
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Reports here are confliting as to who started this whole fight....one thing that any one can see however is the response. Congrats on pulling the wool over the worlds eyes and getting away with it....cause you did basically. Just beware of the future.....this lil act will more than likely come back to bite your country in the ***.
It already did, when you consider that it prompted Poland, and now Georgia, to sign the missile shield deal with us, with a new little add-on rider clause that will call for U.S. troops' to be stationed in Poland.
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The much vaunted missile shield is obsolete anyway. It's a vulnerable piece of technology that can be simply targeted with low flying cruise missiles or pre-emptive spec-ops strikes. In a shooting war it's a stumbling block that can easily be turned against you.
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Forced to retaliate for what? :rolleyes: YOU are the only ones threatening anyone! And this isn't about retaliation, either. YOUR general is threatening to strike FIRST, NOW, just for them HAVING a defensive system in their country.
You know what MAD is?
You mean we are not targeted by your missiles!? So you deny multiple plans of first nuclear attack on USSR de-classified by your DoD?!
Who told you some Russian general said about first nuclear strike now? We have nukes to prevent possible aggression against Russia and it's allies, according to our 1990s military doctrine, but who's speaking about it now?
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I'm fully aware of the concept of Mutually Assured Destruction.
It's YOUR general and YOUR politicians who have been threatening Poland, and the rest of Eastern Europe, ever since the possibility of a missile defense system existed. And now that they've revived their plans of conquest and empire building, and after they've invaded Georgia, they're thumping their chests and threatening louder and more often.
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Forced to retaliate for what? :rolleyes: YOU are the only ones threatening anyone! And this isn't about retaliation, either. YOUR general is threatening to strike FIRST, NOW, just for them HAVING a defensive system in their country.
So true.
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The much vaunted missile shield is obsolete anyway. It's a vulnerable piece of technology that can be simply targeted with low flying cruise missiles or pre-emptive spec-ops strikes. In a shooting war it's a stumbling block that can easily be turned against you.
That is true, SD. It's not perfect, it can be spoofed by decoy missiles' as well. However, it's better than nothing. And cruise missiles can be defended against with land-based CIWS systems, and the missile shield sites' guarded against SPETSNAZ attacks.
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As a side note, we have already surpassed the General Climate discussion thread in length and are fast approaching the gun thread length.....maybe someone should PM Skuzzy and ask for a sticky on this one too? :D
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woops, wrong Boroda thread :).
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Of course if Russian cruise missiles or spec ops teams attacked defensive ABM sites in Poland, that would serve as irrefutable notification of an intent to launch a first strike.
If you choose to think of the ABMs as vulnerable and ineffective in that case, you'd have to admit that they'd serve admirably as a tripwire.
I'd think the signal to lauch would be given upon validated reports of attacks on allied ABM sites. Thus, it'd be a pretty stupid attack.
There's a lot of layers to an onion.
Anyway,Boroda is just tooting his country's horn. They been in the dumpster so long that this little military adventure makes them feel like Supermen again. I wouldn't put much stock in it. I think he's just entertaining himself.
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Hmmm... after the Poland Deal, wonder if discussion of the development of an 'inner NATO', the baltics, ukraine and georgia forming a Eastern European Treaty Organization, replete with US bases, support, missile basing and rhetoric is in play.
...seems they want defense, NOW.
(can't for the life of me figure out why)
Gotta be freaking out the Russki's.
...gawd, listen to 'em wail about Poland.. red faced table pounding already!
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They been in the dumpster so long that this little military adventure makes them feel like Supermen again.
When you look at how Soviet built equipment fared in the first Gulf war vs it's Western counterparts, I'm not so sure the Russians/USSR ever were Supermen except in their own deluded minds. ;)
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Anyway,Boroda is just tooting his country's horn. They been in the dumpster so long that this little military adventure makes them feel like Supermen again. I wouldn't put much stock in it. I think he's just entertaining himself.
I'll be honest, Toad...I'd feel much better if Vladimir Putin, the de facto leader of Russia, didn't seem to feel the same way.
His overbearing/overreaching ego is starting to get people killed.
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I'm fully aware of the concept of Mutually Assured Destruction.
It's YOUR general and YOUR politicians who have been threatening Poland, and the rest of Eastern Europe, ever since the possibility of a missile defense system existed. And now that they've revived their plans of conquest and empire building, and after they've invaded Georgia, they're thumping their chests and threatening louder and more often.
Threatened!?
It's you guys always threatening us on every smallest reason!
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Threatened!?
It's you guys always threatening us on every smallest reason!
You sure your not Putin in Boroda clothing?
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I think he has killed before. A certain Litvinyenko springs to mind. Russo-British relations have been shot ever since.
I only hope Boroda is blustering because he is a minority here and on the defensive. Otherwise... cue music...
"There maybe trouble ahead..."
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http://voinodel.livejournal.com/20990.html - new footage from Tskhinval, no atrocities here, just the ruined city.
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Photos from the same blog, the guy us a war reporter with peacekepers:
http://voinodel.livejournal.com/16819.html
Check the blog from the first page, but there are some very-very ugly photos...
Edit: it's Aug 10th, road from Dzhava to Tskhinval, Russian convoy under enemy fire.
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http://voinodel.livejournal.com/20990.html - new footage from Tskhinval, no atrocities here, just the ruined city.
Ruined city? Are you truly delusional? :lol
There are some damaged buildings, but a ruined city? Hardly ruined.
The first picture doesn't even show any damage to the city. Neither do the next two, those only show a pair of destroyed tanks. The others show minor damage to the city.
Want to see a ruined city? Look at what the Russians did to Grozy, that's a ruined city.
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Of course if Russian cruise missiles or spec ops teams attacked defensive ABM sites in Poland, that would serve as irrefutable notification of an intent to launch a first strike.
If you choose to think of the ABMs as vulnerable and ineffective in that case, you'd have to admit that they'd serve admirably as a tripwire.
I'd think the signal to lauch would be given upon validated reports of attacks on allied ABM sites. Thus, it'd be a pretty stupid attack.
There's a lot of layers to an onion.
Anyway,Boroda is just tooting his country's horn. They been in the dumpster so long that this little military adventure makes them feel like Supermen again. I wouldn't put much stock in it. I think he's just entertaining himself.
Oh yea, the Russians said they were gonna take military action against ANY defense installation put in Poland... Why though? It's for defence. If they werent up to anything, it wouldn't be a problem... :rolleyes:
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Oh yea, the Russians said they were gonna take military action against ANY defense installation put in Poland... Why though? It's for defence. If they werent up to anything, it wouldn't be a problem... :rolleyes:
The laughable situation is, the shield provides no defense from RUSSIAN missiles against the US... missile path on a Russian strike against US is over Polar cap, not Poland. The intent of the shield was to provide an effective defense for US against Iranian Missiles... and as a side benefit, it WILL for Poland and the rest of europe west of poland against Russian Missiles.
Hummmmmm.
No wonder Poland wanted US Troops stationed with the missiles.
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Better get some F-22s and B-2s on station. Russia is about to make a big big mistake from the looks of it.
Unless Europe can WAKE up and realize what is about to happen, we'll be drawn into this.
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The laughable situation is, the shield provides no defense from RUSSIAN missiles against the US... missile path on a Russian strike against US is over Polar cap, not Poland. The intent of the shield was to provide an effective defense for US against Iranian Missiles... and as a side benefit, it WILL for Poland and the rest of europe west of poland against Russian Missiles.
The other laughable part is, it's only 10 missiles. The Russians could easily overwhelm the system with sheer numbers.
It is for defensive purposes. Unless you are planning a missile offensive....why worry over a purely defensive system?
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Ruined city? Are you truly delusional? :lol
There are some damaged buildings, but a ruined city? Hardly ruined.
The first picture doesn't even show any damage to the city. Neither do the next two, those only show a pair of destroyed tanks. The others show minor damage to the city.
Want to see a ruined city? Look at what the Russians did to Grozy, that's a ruined city.
You can hardly see any window not broken there. You clearly see results of artillery fire on populated city. This is, my friend, a result of a _massive_artillery_barrage_.
Did you see footage of a hospital bombed in Tskhinval? Sure, it's definitely not _completely_ destroyed, tree walls are still standing.
Imagine yourself at the place of poor civilians there you moron. Grozniy and Stalingrad were defended by desperate opponents who fortified every house.
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Who told you some Russian general said about first nuclear strike now? We have nukes to prevent possible aggression against Russia and it's allies, according to our 1990s military doctrine, but who's speaking about it now?
A top Russian general said Friday that Poland's agreement to accept a U.S. missile interceptor base exposes the ex-communist nation to attack, possibly by nuclear weapons, the Interfax news agency reported.
The statement by Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn is the strongest threat that Russia has issued against the plans to put missile defense elements in former Soviet satellite nations.
Poland and the United States on Thursday signed a deal for Poland to accept a missile interceptor base as part of a system the United States says is aimed at blocking attacks by rogue nations. Moscow, however, feels it is aimed at Russia's missile force.
"Poland, by deploying (the system) is exposing itself to a strike — 100 percent," Nogovitsyn, the deputy chief of staff, was quoted as saying.
He added, in clear reference to the agreement, that Russia's military doctrine sanctions the use of nuclear weapons "against the allies of countries having nuclear weapons if they in some way help them." Nogovitsyn that would include elements of strategic deterrence systems, he said, according to Interfax.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,404221,00.html
I know...fox news bad...but I can find it EASY on TONS of other sources.....
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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,404221,00.html
I know...fox news bad...but I can find it EASY on TONS of other sources.....
wow, thats almost scary. Russians wouldn't be that stupid to drop 1 nuke over DEFENSE. From the looks of it, it's just Chest Thumpin. As slow as they take to up (from what standards I have read) by the time 1 has gotten up to an X amount of altitude, there are 10 US missles launched 1 after another AFTER the Russian missle launched that would hit first.
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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,404221,00.html
I know...fox news bad...but I can find it EASY on TONS of other sources.....
There is a good old school of altering the translated quotes. Yes, Poland has legitimate targets for our attack in case of war, so what? You guys managed to bomb Chinese Embassy while supporting terrorists who acted hundred miles away, deliberately bombed bridges, hospitals and powerplants, why can't we target military objects in a country that belongs to an enemy military block? Yes, it's no secret that we will bomb NATO bases in case they attack. So what? You target our ABM system around Moscow, that's obvious.
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wow, thats almost scary. Russians wouldn't be that stupid to drop 1 nuke over DEFENSE. From the looks of it, it's just Chest Thumpin. As slow as they take to up (from what standards I have read) by the time 1 has gotten up to an X amount of altitude, there are 10 US missles launched 1 after another AFTER the Russian missle launched that would hit first.
It was just an answer to putins...I mean Borodas question.....
The simple fact that a General would even mention this type of crap is disturbing. Especially given the current circumstances in the area. I'm trying to think who in the U.S. military has ever made such a comment. Such as using nukes like tossing a grenade.
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wow, thats almost scary. Russians wouldn't be that stupid to drop 1 nuke over DEFENSE. From the looks of it, it's just Chest Thumpin. As slow as they take to up (from what standards I have read) by the time 1 has gotten up to an X amount of altitude, there are 10 US missles launched 1 after another AFTER the Russian missle launched that would hit first.
Again: in case of a massive launch from the US will result in a strike on enemy ABM systems at the first place. Same things planned in the US, it's just common sense.
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There is a good old school of altering the translated quotes. Yes, Poland has legitimate targets for our attack in case of war, so what? You guys managed to bomb Chinese Embassy while supporting terrorists who acted hundred miles away, deliberately bombed bridges, hospitals and powerplants, why can't we target military objects in a country that belongs to an enemy military block? Yes, it's no secret that we will bomb NATO bases in case they attack. So what? You target our ABM system around Moscow, that's obvious.
Hey Boroda:
ITS DEFENSE WEAPONS
Not loud enough?
IT'S DEFENSE WEAPONS, IT'S MAIN PURPOSE IS TO DEFEND FROM MISSLE ATTACK
And yea, I know what you mean RedTop.
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There is a good old school of altering the translated quotes. Yes, Poland has legitimate targets for our attack in case of war, so what? You guys managed to bomb Chinese Embassy while supporting terrorists who acted hundred miles away, deliberately bombed bridges, hospitals and powerplants, why can't we target military objects in a country that belongs to an enemy military block? Yes, it's no secret that we will bomb NATO bases in case they attack. So what? You target our ABM system around Moscow, that's obvious.
So your General tossing out the possiblity of a Nuke launch at poland isn't a big deal to you huh? What was it he put in there...100 percent?
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It was just an answer to putins...I mean Borodas question.....
The simple fact that a General would even mention this type of crap is disturbing. Especially given the current circumstances in the area. I'm trying to think who in the U.S. military has ever made such a comment. Such as using nukes like tossing a grenade.
Your DoD published total nuclear war plans against USSR, with the first strike made by the US and killing 30 million Soviet people in first 10 days, mostly in the cities. Including your beloved Georgia. Google for Drop Shot.
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So your General tossing out the possiblity of a Nuke launch at poland isn't a big deal to you huh? What was it he put in there...100 percent?
If Russia does strike, it will be loads worse for them. I can GUARANTEE you that there are 5-10 Ballistic missle subs off the coast of russia, probably all of em. Same for our country too.
Things will be much much worse for Russia than us though.
Boroda, a Russian General said that. He threatened over a defense. Wtf are the Russians planning to do?
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Your DoD published total nuclear war plans against USSR, with the first strike made by the US and killing 30 million Soviet people in first 10 days, mostly in the cities. Including your beloved Georgia. Google for Drop Shot.
Your missing the point .....A top ranking General....tosses out that statment...in a current Volatile situation....and directed at Poland....and your cool with it. Ok...I understand.
DoD documents? Its been known for YEARS....hell we all knew it before it was ever de-classified. :rolleyes: WE knew you had em pointed here to. Thats a givien.
I'm looking to find out when a HIGH RANKING general from the U.S. has made such a bold comment that the NUKE option is 100 percent out there.
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Hey Boroda:
ITS DEFENSE WEAPONS
Not loud enough?
Go shout at your cat.
Are you truly sick or just 12 years old?
It's pointless to argue with a TV-receiver. Can you advise me please how to easily ignore your hallucinations on the BBS-level?
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Well, lets see, Poland wants to install DEFENSE missles. You use DEFENSIVE weapons for DEFENSE purposes. Poland wont be on the DEFENSE if they were attacking Russia.
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You can hardly see any window not broken there. You clearly see results of artillery fire on populated city. This is, my friend, a result of a _massive_artillery_barrage_.
Did you see footage of a hospital bombed in Tskhinval? Sure, it's definitely not _completely_ destroyed, tree walls are still standing.
Imagine yourself at the place of poor civilians there you moron. Grozniy and Stalingrad were defended by desperate opponents who fortified every house.
Massive artillery barrage? Where are all the impact craters? You are just pulling stuff out of the side of your neck again.
From your first link, that second photo, there are some windows in the building that do in fact appear to be gone. There are others that appear to be intact. Examples: First floor, to the left of the tree, those two windows are clearly gone. Second floor, just to the right and left of the same tree, windows are intact.
Every other photo is to far away to tell how many windows are intact and how many are broken.
You are once again making things up in order to defend an indefensible position.
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Your missing the point .....A top ranking General....tosses out that statment...in a current Volatile situation....and directed at Poland....and your cool with it. Ok...I understand.
DoD documents? Its been known for YEARS....hell we all knew it before it was ever de-classified. :rolleyes: WE knew you had em pointed here to. Thats a givien.
I'm looking to find out when a HIGH RANKING general from the U.S. has made such a bold comment that the NUKE option is 100 percent out there.
I hear your moronic presidental candidate use such rhetorics all the time. Your generals share such pearls of wisdom about targeting Russia because we are bad-bad every week now. I guess our side just got tired of this barking. And Polish government pretty well knows what they subscribe to. I hope Polish people know it also now.
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Well, lets see, Poland wants to install DEFENSE missles. You use DEFENSIVE weapons for DEFENSE purposes. Poland wont be on the DEFENSE if they were attacking Russia.
The problem is, even though they claim to be installing a defensive missile system, there could very well be offensive weapons being installed as well. Russia not wanting them to be there is very understandable.
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Go shout at your cat.
Are you truly sick or just 12 years old?
It's pointless to argue with a TV-receiver. Can you advise me please how to easily ignore your hallucinations on the BBS-level?
You talking about someone else having hallucinations......if that doesn't take the cake I don't know what does. :D
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Your generals share such pearls of wisdom about targeting Russia because we are bad-bad every week now.
The US and Russia (before Russia, the Soviet Union) have had missiles aimed at each other for decades now. Old news and a non issue.
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I hear your moronic presidental candidate use such rhetorics all the time. Your generals share such pearls of wisdom about targeting Russia because we are bad-bad every week now. I guess our side just got tired of this barking. And Polish government pretty well knows what they subscribe to. I hope Polish people know it also now.
Boroda.....Saber rattling is one thing...using the Nuke referance is more than saber ratteling. Now if you can't see that...then your blind and not even thinking straight.
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Well, lets see, Poland wants to install DEFENSE missles. You use DEFENSIVE weapons for DEFENSE purposes. Poland wont be on the DEFENSE if they were attacking Russia.
Last time, this time slowly: US installs it's military objects, that threaten Russian armed forces, to use them in case of a nuclear war with Russia. Yes we are going to target them.
Ever wondered why bullet-proof wests are prohibited in most US states, even gun-friendly?
This is my last answer to you, I don't get paid for teaching you elementary logics. I wish you to go back to your 6th grade in September and learn well.
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The problem is, even though they claim to be installing a defensive missile system, there could very well be offensive weapons being installed as well. Russia not wanting them to be there is very understandable.
What offensive weapons would we install in Poland? What offensive weapons could we install there w/o the press finding out about it and telling the entire world?
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Does anyone think that this thread has an impact on anything?
Blowhard relevate's in my mind.
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The problem is, even though they claim to be installing a defensive missile system, there could very well be offensive weapons being installed as well. Russia not wanting them to be there is very understandable.
But the thing is, WOULD Poland attack Russia?
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Targetting is fine Boroda. So long as no one pulls the trigger we won't all die a gruesome and painful death.
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bullet-proof wests
What the heck is that? :D
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Boroda.....Saber rattling is one thing...using the Nuke referance is more than saber ratteling. Now if you can't see that...then your blind and not even thinking straight.
Your regime threatens us with nukes for how many? 63 years.
Your officials openly threaten to "pacify" us right now, should we STFU about it?...
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This is my last answer to you, I don't get paid for teaching you elementary logics. I wish you to go back to your 6th grade in September and learn well.
You telling someone to go back to school and learn. :rofl
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Last time, this time slowly: US installs it's military objects, that threaten Russian armed forces, to use them in case of a nuclear war with Russia. Yes we are going to target them.
Ever wondered why bullet-proof wests are prohibited in most US states, even gun-friendly?
This is my last answer to you, I don't get paid for teaching you elementary logics. I wish you to go back to your 6th grade in September and learn well.
Since when are bullet proof vests illegal in most states? :rolleyes:
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But the thing is, WOULD Poland attack Russia?
It's not Poland, it;s US miltary base. Indirect aggression.
Enough with that.
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Your regime threatens us with nukes for how many? 63 years.
Your officials openly threaten to "pacify" us right now, should we hugs about it?...
WHEN did we threaten to "pacify" ANYONE? Where do you get this "pacify" crap anyway? Do you even know what the word means? Or are you just parroting more party propaganda?
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It's not Poland, it;s US miltary base. Indirect aggression.
Enough with that.
You can invade our ally Georgia and 'get away with it' but you arent gonna invade poland. And I bet Russia has it's eye on Poland like a gay guy checking you out from the other side of the bar.
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Bush is telling the ruskies to get the hell out of Georgia. I think they will obey.
What would Obama do? McCain?
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You can invade our ally Georgia and 'get away with it' but you arent gonna invade poland. And I bet Russia has it's eye on Poland like a gay guy checking you out from the other side of the bar.
When was last time you looked at the world map?
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Putin is more of a nut than the dood in Iran. U.S. should jump all over this.. BOOM MFer... Huh?..What? ....Summore? thats what I thought, get the hell out... NOW!
I'm sure the subs are there all ready.
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It's not Poland, it;s US miltary base. Indirect aggression.
Enough with that.
Indirect aggression? You really need to get a grip on reality. It's a purely defensive system for the US that happens to have a fringe benefit of being able to intercept missiles targetted at Poland. As long as your country doesn't plan on attacking Poland, you have nothing to worry about. Pretty simple really.
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Your regime threatens us with nukes for how many? 63 years.
Your officials openly threaten to "pacify" us right now, should we hugs about it?...
Boroda....look..let me ask you in another way.
Has a U.S. official ever said that the USE OF NUKES IS AN OPTION 100 percent? Just a simple yes or no will do.
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Bush is telling the ruskies to get the hell out of Georgia. I think they will obey.
You will know Bush is serious when he gives them 48 hours to get out of town. :uhoh
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Bush is telling the ruskies to get the hell out of Georgia. I think they will obey.
What would Obama do? McCain?
...We need to see if they do, AK. That's the sum of the whole current problem right now. They've been simply trying to take advantage of any peace offers' thrown on the table, and they are still on the Georgian' side of the Ossetian Border.
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You will know Bush is serious when he gives them 48 hours to get out of town. :uhoh
IF he does.
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Putin is more of a nut than the dood in Iran. U.S. should jump all over this.. BOOM MFer... Huh?..What? ....Summore? thats what I thought, get the hell out... NOW!
I'm sure the subs are there all ready.
The US won't mess with anybody with the ability to fight back... :lol
Iraq 'might' have nukes (read; doesn't), US invades.
Iran is trying to create a civilian nuclear program, which would give them the ability to have nuclear missiles; US threatens to invade.
North Korea makes it clear that they want to make offensive nuclear weapons; US negotiates with the unspoken possibility of military action on the table.
Russia, which already has nuclear missles, invades a small country; US wags their finger.
The US won't intervene in this matter, I don't think. I certainly hope we don't, at least.
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IF he does.
Right. :)
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You want to become a US Air Force pilot Motherland?
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The US won't mess with anybody with the ability to fight back... :lol
Iraq 'might' have nukes (read; doesn't), US invades.
Iran is trying to create a civilian nuclear program, which would give them the ability to have nuclear missiles; US threatens to invade.
North Korea makes it clear that they want to make offensive nuclear weapons; US negotiates with the unspoken possibility of military action on the table.
Russia, which already has nuclear missles, invades a small country; US wags their finger.
The US won't intervene in this matter, I don't think. I certainly hope we don't, at least.
US has the strongest military in the world. A posting of a fleet with a Nimitz class carrier would make a huge difference.
The difference between North Korea and Iran is that the North Koreans are atLEAST, rational. They'll know when they should stop. Iran doens't care. It's how they were raised, with death as something not so bad. Iranians wouldn't be afraid to die at the hands of a nuke.
Iran isn't trying to create a civilian nuclear program. Face the facts, they've openly said that if they get nukes, Israel will be on the reciving end.
If we're lucky, Russians (and us) wont give the tactical nuclear weapons even a thought when it comes to using them.
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The US won't mess with anybody with the ability to fight back... :lol
Iraq 'might' have nukes (read; doesn't), US invades.
Iran is trying to create a civilian nuclear program, which would give them the ability to have nuclear missiles; US threatens to invade.
North Korea makes it clear that they want to make offensive nuclear weapons; US negotiates with the unspoken possibility of military action on the table.
Russia, which already has nuclear missles, invades a small country; US wags their finger.
The US won't intervene in this matter, I don't think. I certainly hope we don't, at least.
If we dont the Bear is going to ROLL. Guaranteed. A few dozen of his planes should do. Give our new Plane set a work out ;)
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You want to become a US Air Force pilot Motherland?
I do. I also like playing the devils advocate, particularly for an argument that is very much an uphill battle. Don't take anything I'm saying here as thinking that Russian military policy and behavior is OK. I know what they've done, especially as they invaded Germany in WWII, as I've read first hand accounts of these atrocities.
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The difference between North Korea and Iran is that the North Koreans are atLEAST, rational. They'll know when they should stop.
That is the biggest hunk of BS I've ever read on these boards. North Korea is MUCH more totalitarian than any of the other countries I listed, even more than the old USSR. Even worse, Kim Jong Il is INSANE. There is simply no better word to describe him.
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I do. I also like playing the devils advocate, particularly for an argument that is very much an uphill battle. Don't take anything I'm saying here as thinking that Russian military policy and behavior is OK. I know what they've done, especially as they invaded Germany, as I've read first hand accounts of these atrocities.
Ahh ok. If you hadn't posted this I was going to ask for your Social Security number so it could be forwarded to the Air Force along with a link to this thread......just to make them aware. :devil
Since you posted this, you have ruined my whole devious plan. :D
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Yea Kim Jong-Il is bat-sh*t crazy.
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Ahh ok. If you hadn't posted this I was going to ask for your Social Security number so it could be forwarded to the Air Force along with a link to this thread......just to make them aware. :devil
Since you posted this, you have ruined my whole devious plan. :D
:D
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We may just have to nuke 'em all and let God sort 'em out.
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Motherland....
Your advocating that the missle systems in poland could be considered offensive...or that some offensive system could go in....
As Boroda seems to have left the building again...
How do you feel about Israel bombing irans nuclear plants?
Just curious about your feelings on this as you seem to want to be a pilot....in my countries air force.
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angelsandair - quit with histrionical 100 point fonts. And go look at a map. You are starting to look a bit immature.
The missile defence system is a threat to Russia because it theoretically negates their nuclear deterrent; this opens the way for a NATO first strike. I'm surprised no-one can see this. Of course, I don't believe we would strike first - but you need to look at this from the Russian perspective.
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The missile defence system is a threat to Russia because it theoretically negates their nuclear deterrent; this opens the way for a NATO first strike. I'm surprised no-one can see this. Of course, I don't believe we would strike first - but you need to look at this from the Russian perspective.
I could agree with that except for one minor detail.....there isn't enough ABM's to counter a Russian nuclear assault. (Or counter strike) Only 10 of them are being put in Poland, Russia can easily overwhelm that system.
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angelsandair - quit with histrionical 100 point fonts. And go look at a map. You are starting to look a bit immature.
The missile defence system is a threat to Russia because it theoretically negates their nuclear deterrent; this opens the way for a NATO first strike. I'm surprised no-one can see this. Of course, I don't believe we would strike first - but you need to look at this from the Russian perspective.
Certainly this is true. However, we should do whatever is in our own best interest, even if it means not giving the Russians a measure of comfort. They should be afforded the security of MAD only if we have no alternative. If we can negate their nuclear threat we need not look at this from their perspective.
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I think that's why we haven't had even stronger action from Russia. They know that they are a token gesture - but NATO encroachment is something they will avoid at (nearly) all costs.
AKIron - not looking at this from a Russian perspective would be a very dangerous thing indeed.
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I think that's why we haven't had even stronger action from Russia. They know that they are a token gesture - but NATO encroachment is something they will avoid at (nearly) all costs.
AKIron - not looking at this from a Russian perspective would be a very dangerous thing indeed.
Perhaps I misspoke. One should always know their enemy. What I meant was if we can nullify Russia's threat we need not compromise.
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I could agree with that except for one minor detail.....there isn't enough ABM's to counter a Russian nuclear assault. (Or counter strike) Only 10 of them are being put in Poland, Russia can easily overwhelm that system.
If we hit them now they wont mess with Poland
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Is there an immediate need for oil in the former union right now? Is the Putin regime playing follow the leader; just cuz Jr. did it? And, if so, does this mean democracy is attempting to thrive in the red states of the world?
I enjoyed typing that. ;)
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Perhaps I misspoke. One should always know their enemy. What I meant was if we can nullify Russia's threat we need not compromise.
Roger dodger we need to give em a fat lip and a black eye :aok and then ask if we can break sumthin fer um
:O
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Motherland....
Your advocating that the missle systems in poland could be considered offensive...or that some offensive system could go in....
As Boroda seems to have left the building again...
How do you feel about Israel bombing irans nuclear plants?
I'm too unfamiliar with this incident to comment.
This is where Israeli fighter jets (something in the back of my mind is telling me they were F16s) bombed some kind of Iranian nuclear reactor being developed or something in the 70's or 80's, and some civilians were killed, making the general Iranian public (naturally, and understandably) very angry, correct?
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I'm too unfamiliar with this incident to comment.
This is where Israeli fighter jets (something in the back of my mind is telling me they were F16s) bombed some kind of Iranian nuclear reactor being developed or something in the 70's or 80's, and some civilians were killed, making the general Iranian public (naturally, and understandably) very angry, correct?
Well not what I was looking for...
Im referring to now....The Iranians are working on a nuclear plant....have made some very strong statments to say the least about Israel....
Do you advocate bombing the plants due to the statements made by Achmadumbajob...or would you simply leave well enough alone and take your chances?
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Israel seems to just love bombing nuclear plants, they've also bombed ones in Iraq and more recently one in Syria.
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I'm too unfamiliar with this incident to comment.
This is where Israeli fighter jets (something in the back of my mind is telling me they were F16s) bombed some kind of Iranian nuclear reactor being developed or something in the 70's or 80's, and some civilians were killed, making the general Iranian public (naturally, and understandably) very angry, correct?
You are sorta right....and sorta wrong....heh
Yes, it was the Israeli's that bombed a nuclear facility with F-16's, but it was an Iraqi facility and it was hit on a Sunday to minimize the chances of civilians being hit. It was 1986 iirc that the Israeli's hit the Osirak (sp) reactor.
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Well not what I was looking for...
Im referring to now....The Iranians are working on a nuclear plant....have made some very strong statments to say the least about Israel....
Do you advocate bombing the plants due to the statements made by Achmadumbajob...or would you simply leave well enough alone and take your chances?
OK, I see what you're saying now...
I never liked the use of the military as the world police force, as it not only makes the US look bad in most cases, but it also kills American citizens for.... well, not the wellfare of the United States, which IMO is the role it should be used for.
Iran, you could say, is different because if they develop nuclear weapons they could kill thousands, millions, even tens of millions of Americans. Although, this is only part of the puzzle, since you also need to have a delivery system, unless Iran is going to kill US civilians in Iran. So... they need to build a missile capable of carrying a non-microsized nuclear warhead to the United States. Considering Iran does not have a space program or some other kind of cover to build systems that would be capable of striking the US, I don't see a nuclear Iran, even an Iran with nuclear weapons, as a threat to the United States as much as it would be to Israel or Europe.... which means, IMO, it's their decision to make.
You are sorta right....and sorta wrong....heh
Yes, it was the Israeli's that bombed a nuclear facility with F-16's, but it was an Iraqi facility and it was hit on a Sunday to minimize the chances of civilians being hit. It was 1986 iirc that the Israeli's hit the Osirak (sp) reactor.
I figured I was some kind of combination of right and wrong. Which is why reserved comment :aok
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OK, I see what you're saying now...
I never liked the use of the military as the world police force, as it not only makes the US look bad in most cases, but it also kills American citizens for.... well, not the wellfare of the United States, which IMO is the role it should be used for.
Iran, you could say, is different because if they develop nuclear weapons they could kill thousands, millions, even tens of millions of Americans. Although, this is only part of the puzzle, since you also need to have a delivery system, unless Iran is going to kill US civilians in Iran. So... they need to build a missile capable of carrying a non-microsized nuclear warhead to the United States. Considering Iran does not have a space program or some other kind of cover to build systems that would be capable of striking the US, I don't see a nuclear Iran, even an Iran with nuclear weapons, as a threat to the United States as much as it would be to Israel or Europe.... which means, IMO, it's their decision to make.I figured I was some kind of combination of right and wrong. Which is why reserved comment :aok
Interesting...your 14 right? NO...thats not anything to do with anything....your answer is well thought out...
So...If I get this right....Your ok with Israel attacking Iran.....due to the real threat it may feel....but....You think russia would be founded in thier taking measures at poland when they have no threat to pose to russia.
Just getting your take here...not arguing...I'm kind of wondering what the younger americans are thinking these days about world events.
Russia not wanting them to be there is very understandable.
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Interesting...your 14 right?
Yes. ;)
So...If I get this right....Your ok with Israel attacking Iran.....due to the real threat it may feel....but....You think russia would be founded in thier taking measures at poland when they have no threat to pose to russia.
In actuality I believe that threatening a nuclear strike is going way to far, however I was exaggerating/fabricating thoughts and opinions in order to play the devils advocate.
However, looking at the situation from Russia's point of view, there's a possibility that the Americans aren't just putting in defensive missiles (just like there's a possibility that Iran isn't developing nuclear capabilities for peaceful reasons). I can certainly see condemning the decisions and, maybe even threatening military action. But certainly not threatening with a nuclear strike.
Just getting your take here...not arguing...I'm kind of wondering what the younger americans are thinking these days about world events.
I'd be a poor representation of that, most I talk to seem to think more similarly to angelsandair than I.
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They do? I find that hard to believe...BUT....I don't have alot to do with younger kids these days. Most of what I see on the streets or around when out with the wife are very undisciplined and smart a** very rude kids. Basically just daring any one to say something so they can throw thier rudenss at them. Generally I find younger kids , teens mainly to be a real pain in the *** that I don't like much.
NOT ALL....but most. :lol
Thanks for the thoughts.....interesting and appreciated.
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I should have said, 'if they have an opinion at all about foreign policy'. Of course, if you ask most my age about the conflict in Georgia, they will be asking why there are Russian troops in the US, and it will take a long time to explain where Georgia is.
Basically just daring any one to say something so they can throw thier rudenss at them. Generally I find younger kids , teens mainly to be a real pain in the *** that I don't like much.
You don't see a bit of this in angel's opinions on foreign policy?
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You don't see a bit of this in angel's opinions on foreign policy?
The rudeness? Yeah..to a certain extent. Can't deny that. :lol at haveing to explain why Russia is in the U.S.. I can see that happening.
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However, looking at the situation from Russia's point of view, there's a possibility that the Americans aren't just putting in defensive missiles
The Russians should be able to monitor/verify that in the same manner that we monitored/verified the missiles being deployed in Cuba during the Cuban missile crisis....via satellite.
Even trying to see this from a Russian perspective, I find it very hard to see why they are so upset about these missiles. There is only 10 of them. On top of that, the Russians have ICBMs that supposedly can evade incoming ABMs anyways.
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I'm too unfamiliar with this incident to comment.
This is where Israeli fighter jets (something in the back of my mind is telling me they were F16s) bombed some kind of Iranian nuclear reactor being developed or something in the 70's or 80's, and some civilians were killed, making the general Iranian public (naturally, and understandably) very angry, correct?
Well, from my understanding, the Iranians had said out loud and publically that if they get nukes, they will nuke Isreal.
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You don't see a bit of this in angel's opinions on foreign policy?
Foreign policy?
Just what I know. Unlike most stupid arse Teenage kids, I tend to keep up with the news. Form my own opinions.
Stupid arse kids are something like you'd see at my school. Kids who think our troops are nazis, 1 million people died in the war in Iraq, and cant state why they want our troops out of Iraq.
Compare me to Boroda and you'll see a huge difference, actually, compare any typical idiot at my school to Boroda and they'll come off way smarter.
Edit: After reading it, it looks kinda harsh towards you, it isn't. Please dont take it that way. :aok
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The Petro Dollar Disease... the bane of the west.
We have, here in the USA, managed to fund via petro dollars the islamist agendas... over the last 40 years we've sent hundreds of billions that way... as T. Boone says.. the largest transfer of wealth in history.
In Europe, the Russians have gone from selling off their cold war weapons for coats and shoes to rebuilding their dreams of empire... on Europe's petro dollars... in just 10 years.
The arabs spend most of the profits on toys, backyard lakes, custom private islands and the Chrysler building... they siphon off a bit to terrorists. Look where that's got us...
The russians are spending all of theirs on rebuilding their armed forces... they cry arms race and point at us.. meanwhile they're rolling reconstituted intermediate range and long range missiles around in red square again.
Hey Europe... If you don't start countering the russians now; where d'ya think the russians will be in 10 years?
Brussels?
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Normandy again. Except this time, the Nazis will look merciful.
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Foreign policy?
Just what I know. Unlike most stupid arse Teenage kids, I tend to keep up with the news. Form my own opinions.
Stupid arse kids are something like you'd see at my school. Kids who think our troops are nazis, 1 million people died in the war in Iraq, and cant state why they want our troops out of Iraq.
Compare me to Boroda and you'll see a huge difference, actually, compare any typical idiot at my school to Boroda and they'll come off way smarter.
Edit: After reading it, it looks kinda harsh towards you, it isn't. Please dont take it that way. :aok
Don't pat yourself on the back too hard. You might bruise something besides' your ego someday. Boroda is as wildly full of nationalistic fervor as you are. More so, looking at the way he will ride some arguments' not only down in flames, but to the junkyard as well. I think Hangtime did say it best earlier when he described Boroda. You actually need to jump back an look at some of the things' you've said yourself.
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Normandy again. Except this time, the Nazis will look merciful.
I tend to have a bit of faith that the Russians have become less barbaric than they were in WWII. Maybe not as much faith as I hope, and fear a bit that they aren't. If by some twist of fate Russia ended up on top in a war that never went nuclear and invaded the US on land, you better hope their conduct has improved since WWII.
Reading Hartmann's account of his treatment by the Soviets upon his & many German civilians capture and 10 years as a POW makes you fear the Bear, even as a civilian.
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hello fellas, nice thread. I don't look down on russia. They do alright. We all have to stick together anyway.
I caught this female alien at Mars2112 in Manhattan, trying to whooo my children as she desperately tries to make contact with the mother ship out of her top left view. Right after I snapped this picture, I called a russian airstrike in on the area as president bush read a bedtime story to his pet rock:
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa223/Skyrock67/100_0113.jpg)
:noid
Mark
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I tend to have a bit of faith that the Russians have become less barbaric than they were in WWII. Maybe not as much faith as I hope, and fear a bit that they aren't. If by some twist of fate Russia ended up on top in a war that never went nuclear and invaded the US on land, you better hope their conduct has improved since WWII.
Reading Hartmann's account of his treatment by the Soviets upon his & many German civilians capture and 10 years as a POW makes you fear the Bear, even as a civilian.
Russians could never make it on American soil. I know for a fact that in Texas, people would be fighting right along side the soldiers.
I know that neither side wants a Nuclear war. The big question is, if it were to happen, who would be the one pushing the button first? Thats what could lead to the war, who would. If this started to escalade anymore than it is, I'd give out a speach denying ANY use of stregetic nuclear weapons if I were either leader. One small speech like that could save the world.
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Russians could never make it on American soil. I know for a fact that in Texas, people would be fighting right along side the soldiers.
There are always possibilities. Who would have thought that the dominant force in the Pacific could be destroyed by a crippled navy in less than 4 years? Or that the most battle hardened, advanced military in the world would be defeated after less than 6 years of war? I'm sure Hitler thought much the same you did going into Russia. 4 years later the Red Army was marching through Germany, mercilessly killing, pillaging, and raping it.
Also remember that China and Russia are good friends. We're up watermelon creek without a paddle without China (or worse, with China against us).
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There are always possibilities. Who would have thought that the dominant force in the Pacific could be destroyed by a crippled navy in less than 4 years? Or that the most battle hardened, advanced military in the world would be defeated after less than 6 years of war? I'm sure Hitler thought much the same you did going into Russia. 4 years later the Red Army was marching through Germany, mercilessly killing, pillaging, and raping it.
Also remember that China and Russia are good friends. We're up watermelon creek without a paddle without China (or worse, with China against us).
There's a ton 'o good points in what you've just said, Motherland, however...
As far as China goes; At the moment, they are definetely in the top 5 powerful countries on the planet, more likely the top 3, when you consider the whole balance of Military/economy/size/influence. And through this whole thing, they haven't uttered one word either way.
What are the Chinese thinking? Are they looking at what happens to the total supply of oil if the valve to Europe gets shut? Are they looking at what the world's response should be? Are they hoping that the U.S. and Russia destroy each other, and just let the PRC move in to fill the void? Are they hoping there is no war at all, so that it won't disrupt their markets? And btw, China and Russia may have shared the same ideology at one time, but they've never truly been friends.
Much of the current foreign policy is based on the concept of China's peaceful rise. Conflicts with foreign countries have occurred at times in its recent history, particularly with the United States; e.g., the U.S. bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade during the Kosovo conflict in May 1999 and the U.S.-China spy plane incident in April 2001. Its foreign relations with many Western nations suffered for a time following the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989, though they have since recovered. The relationship between China and Japan has been strained at times by Japan's refusal to acknowledge its war-time past to the satisfaction of the PRC, e.g. revisionist comments made by prominent Japanese officials and in some Japanese history textbooks. Another point of conflict between the two countries is the frequent visits by Japanese government officials to the Yasukuni Shrine. However, Sino-Japanese relations have warmed considerably since Shinzo Abe became the new Japanese Prime Minister in September 2006. A joint historical study to be completed by 2008 of WWII atrocities is being conducted by China and Japan.
Equally bordering the most countries in the world alongside Russia, the PRC was in a number of international territorial disputes. China's territorial disputes have led to localized wars in the last 50 years, including the Sino-Indian War in 1962, the Sino-Soviet border conflict in 1969 and the Sino-Vietnamese War in 1979. In 2001, the PRC and Russia signed the Sino-Russian Treaty of Friendship,[32] which paved the way in 2004 for Russia to transfer Yinlong Island as well as one-half of Heixiazi to China, ending a long-standing Sino-Russian border dispute. Other territorial disputes include islands in the East and South China Seas, and undefined or disputed borders with India, Tajikistan and North Korea.
While accompanying a rapid economic rise, the PRC since the 1990s seeks to maintain a policy of quiet diplomacy with its neighbors. Steadying its economic growth and participating in regional organizations and cultivating bi-lateral relations will ease suspicion over China's burgeoning military capabilities. The PRC has started a policy of wooing African nations for trade and bilateral co-operations.[33]
That bit was from Wiki, here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Republic_of_China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Republic_of_China)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_border_conflict (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_border_conflict)
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If by some twist of fate Russia ended up on top in a war that never went nuclear and invaded the US on land, you better hope their conduct has improved since WWII.
Reading Hartmann's account of his treatment by the Soviets upon his & many German civilians capture and 10 years as a POW makes you fear the Bear, even as a civilian.
Would suck to be Russian occupier. Atleast for the short time they had left on Earth.
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Of course if Russian cruise missiles or spec ops teams attacked defensive ABM sites in Poland, that would serve as irrefutable notification of an intent to launch a first strike.
If you choose to think of the ABMs as vulnerable and ineffective in that case, you'd have to admit that they'd serve admirably as a tripwire.
I'd think the signal to lauch would be given upon validated reports of attacks on allied ABM sites. Thus, it'd be a pretty stupid attack.
There's a lot of layers to an onion.
Anyway,Boroda is just tooting his country's horn. They been in the dumpster so long that this little military adventure makes them feel like Supermen again. I wouldn't put much stock in it. I think he's just entertaining himself.
The destruction of the missile shield would sever as a great psychological boost to the aggressor. It's not about them launching the missiles at all, it's about their inability to defend against it that's the issue.
US has the strongest military in the world. A posting of a fleet with a Nimitz class carrier would make a huge difference.
The difference between North Korea and Iran is that the North Koreans are atLEAST, rational. They'll know when they should stop. Iran doens't care. It's how they were raised, with death as something not so bad. Iranians wouldn't be afraid to die at the hands of a nuke.
Iran isn't trying to create a civilian nuclear program. Face the facts, they've openly said that if they get nukes, Israel will be on the reciving end.
If we're lucky, Russians (and us) wont give the tactical nuclear weapons even a thought when it comes to using them.
Don't be fooling yourself that you have the strongest military in the world. Yeah your armed services are great, but your economy is not and a military without the money to run is not very powerful at all.
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I think that's why we haven't had even stronger action from Russia. They know that they are a token gesture - but NATO encroachment is something they will avoid at (nearly) all costs.
AKIron - not looking at this from a Russian perspective would be a very dangerous thing indeed.
Yes it's completely ineffective against any russian launches. Actually at this point in time it's completely ineffective period. It's only practical purpose is survieliance, that and making some rich men richer on the american tax dollar. Of course it's purported intent is a threat to a balance that has kept the peace. Sounds like Poland got a sweet deal out of it though, the US is going to bolster their air force and air defence. About time Poland saw some kickbacks.
The russian general really didn't threaten Poland, he just stated that obvious. That by making themselves part of a defense against russian nuclear warfare they have made themselves a target in a nuclear conflict. Of course Poland used to be a US missle target for many years, so they're probably not too concerned.
I was pleased to learn that the russians were working with the georgian police. Transitioning control of cities over to georgian police, not just pulling out and leaving a vacume of violence and looting in their wake. It's very good that they are taking measures to prevent this.
America says that it wants russia to join europe and the west. What russia hears is that america want's russia to become subordinate to america like the rest of europe. Nations don't have enemies, they have competitors. The two most powerful nations in the world are allways going to be at odds with eachother. A sad affect of the natural drives of the human animal.
There is only one way that a population that violently want's independence can be rules. And it isn't pretty. And is it right to do so? Is the preservation of geographic deliniations more important than the preservation of people?
Just like america, russia only intervenes to stop ethnicide when it serves her interest. I didn't see anybody clamoring to the UN's aid in the congo or sudan.
What we're seeing is a lack of ability to emphatize with advisaries. It doesn't matter what one's intent is, what really matters is what your advisary believes your intent to be. That is what is going to determine the course of events. If you haven't watched it yet, I recomend you watch "Fog of War", and then watch McNamara's interview with Charlie Rose. You can dig it up on the net.
And stop watching TV as much as you can. It really does make you stupid. It is a form neurofeedback conditioning, it trains people to feel rather than think. It makes people more guilable and susceptible to preachers (politicians) who use qips and soundbites to push our emotional buttons. The brain is plastic, it can change shape. Regions of the brain can grow or shrink, pathways widen or wither due to different kinds of stimuli. For example neurofeedback training, trauma, music lessons. EEGs have shown that a person watching TV has less brain activity than a person who is sleeping. This probably explains the reason why people burn more calories sleeping than they do watching TV.
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Boroda....look..let me ask you in another way.
Has a U.S. official ever said that the USE OF NUKES IS AN OPTION 100 percent? Just a simple yes or no will do.
I have listened to Nogovitsyn's interviews this morning, including a part where he speaks about Poland. In Russian he only said what a shame it is and it's a very wrong time for such decisions. He never mentioned a nuclear attack (or any attack) on Poland.
Now the latest news are that Russian patrols repelled a terrorist group trying to sabotage a tunnel between Russia and SO. Georgians obviously violate the ceasefire they signed.
Saw BBC reporting Russian forces in Poti. It's either a provocation or a lie. People with MC (Peacekeeping Forces) signs simply can't get there and have nothing to do there. The only thing they may do there is destroying Georgian military equipment, but I doubt it, it was attacked from sea and air, and this guys are motor-infantry.
TV shows huge damage in Tskhinval, no water, no electricity. Russian officers show a huge park of abandoned Georgian equipment from NATO countries and Ukraine. Nogovitsyn said what they captured already is more then could be operated by Georgian military, I hope some foreign "operators" are already being interrogated.
Vesti-24 showed a beautiful educational film on the history of the conflict, I hope it will be soon on Youtube with Eng subtitles.
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Boroda, if you lived at the North Pole, you could be sold a freezer.
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Don't be fooling yourself that you have the strongest military in the world. Yeah your armed services are great, but your economy is not and a military without the money to run is not very powerful at all.
You forget, when World War II began, the U.S. was suffering through what we call the "Great Depression". Our economy was in ruins. It was the war that created the economic boom afterwards. We're not really even in a recession now, at least by the measures real economists use to define a recession.
Now, I'm not sure our population now is equal in perseverance, determination, or fortitude to the "Greatest Generation". At least not as a rule, in general. It would depend on who stepped up as leaders.
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Boroda, if you lived at the North Pole, you could be sold a freezer.
So far it's you guys living in tropics keep buying artificial fur coats.
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So far it's you guys living in tropics keep buying artificial fur coats.
LOL, Boroda did buy the freezer. :rofl
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Don't be fooling yourself that you have the strongest military in the world. Yeah your armed services are great, but your economy is not and a military without the money to run is not very powerful at all.
The economy of the US is not great? LOL
Sure it is wiki -- so? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP))
I would say less than 5% of the world's population generating more than 20% of the world's GDP is doing fairly well, thanks. You may want to clarify that.
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We may just have to nuke 'em all and let God sort 'em out.
Survey says....
NO!
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Enough with the large font.
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Hey Boroda:
ITS DEFENSE WEAPONS
Not loud enough?
IT'S DEFENSE WEAPONS, IT'S MAIN PURPOSE IS TO DEFEND FROM MISSLE ATTACK
And yea, I know what you mean RedTop.
Listen dude, you've got to understand. The balance of power in the Nuclear Weapons age is maintained because we and they (NATO and Russia respectively) understand that we can both destroy the world; we won't strike with nukes at them because they would strike at us. It's what is called a no-win situation. Mutually Assured Destruction. The russians don't want this balance to be upset. In their eyes we now can strike them and shoot down their missles they would launch in retaliation(whether or not this system can do that isn't in question, they have reason to suspect it so they are going to act on this belief).
Russia should have gotten on board as we offered them. Co-operative developement would probably make the system more effective for detering North Korea or Iran from further developing or god forbid launching a WMD on a long range missle. While Boroda is certainly egging you on about it; the Russians are treating the missle defense plan as a direct threat to the balance of world power. No one likes to see the status quo change.
Look at what we want in South Osetia: a return to the status quo. Troops where they were before Georgian troops marched into SO.
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Russia should have gotten on board as we offered them. Co-operative developement would probably make the system more effective for detering North Korea or Iran from further developing or god forbid launching a WMD on a long range missle. While Boroda is certainly egging you on about it; the Russians are treating the missle defense plan as a direct threat to the balance of world power. No one likes to see the status quo change.
Well, it was Russia who offered co-operative development, and using our EW radar stations, including one in Azerbaijan, right across the Caspian to Iran. Like 5 times closer then Cz Rep or Poland. Amercian inspectors checked the radar site and refused (probably after making tons of pictures and setting GPS marks :))...
Look at what we want in South Osetia: a return to the status quo. Troops where they were before Georgian troops marched into SO.
Russian troops are. Georgian terrorist groups still operate deep in SO... :(
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I need to look into it more. I was under the impression that Russia refused to get onboard when offered. Perhaps it was both sides refusing to compromise on the issue.
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Russia is making a grab for it's former glory. Everyone can see this. Justify it however you want, won't change it a whit. The only real question is how far will the rest of the world let it go.
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I need to look into it more. I was under the impression that Russia refused to get onboard when offered. Perhaps it was both sides refusing to compromise on the issue.
Sorry, but to me it seems like the US refused. We did all possible things including letting them onto an early-warning site that is as close to Iran as possible, and they refused :( It was a clear sign that the ABM system is NOT against Iran.
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What Western press wrote about Saakashvili back in 2004:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/apr/01/georgia.oil
This is not how the Georgians see things. In an interview with a Dutch magazine, Sandra Roelofs, the Dutch wife of the new Georgian president and hence the new first lady of Georgia, explained that her husband aspires to follow in the long tradition of strong Georgian leaders "like Stalin and Beria". Saakashvili started his march on Tbilisi last November with a rally in front of the statue of Stalin in his birthplace, Gori. Unfazed, the western media continue to chatter about Saakashvili's democratic credentials, even though his seizure of power was consolidated with more than 95% of the vote in a poll in January, and even though he said last week that he did not see the point of having any opposition deputies in the national parliament.
In Sunday's vote - for which final results are mysteriously still unavailable - the government appears to have won nearly every seat. Georgia is now effectively a one-party state, and Saakashvili has even adopted his party flag as the national flag.
New world order enthusiasts have praised the nightly displays on Georgian television of people being arrested and bundled off to prison in handcuffs. The politics of envy and fear combine in an echo of 1930s Moscow, as Saakashvili's anti-corruption campaign, egged on by the west, allows the biggest gangsters in this gangster state to eliminate their rivals.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lSWZI2KT4Q&feature=related <----- for boroda from the russian archives.. :lol
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I get the feeling, Saakashvili, is a crook and a coward. :aok
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I get the feeling, Saakashvili, is a crook and a coward. :aok
i did not know he was a democrat.
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I get the feeling, Saakashvili, is a crook and a coward. :aok
Did you see a video when he runs and covers fearing Russian planes in Gori, when it's his own artillery still shooting at Tskhinval after another "cease fire" he signed?... :D
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What Western press wrote about Saakashvili back in 2004:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/apr/01/georgia.oil
LOL... you could use something other than the brit version of communist toilet paper as a source.
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BBC now reporting Russian forces (tanks and APCs) 18 miles from Tbilisi. They have moved forward in last 24 hours. Just seen the report.
Russian army is systematically destroying the infrastructure of Georgia to make Saakashvili unpopular in Georgia.
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BBC now reporting Russian forces (tanks and APCs) 18 miles from Tblisi. They have moved forward in last 24 hours. Just seen the report.
Don't tell Boroda that......
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Did you see a video when he runs and covers fearing Russian planes in Gori, when it's his own artillery still shooting at Tskhinval after another "cease fire" he signed?... :D
Yes, as a leader, one should never flinch, and running for an alley with 30 twits covering you with flak jackets is , well.......flinching! :aok
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Anyone know if the supplies we sent have made it to the Hospitals?
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Yes, as a leader, one should never flinch, and running for an alley with 30 twits covering you with flak jackets is , well.......flinching! :aok
Lol search a video for president and party balloon popping and then tell about flinching. Your own secret service clothelines the traveler if need be.
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BBC now reporting Russian forces (tanks and APCs) 18 miles from Tbilisi. They have moved forward in last 24 hours. Just seen the report.
Russian army is systematically destroying the infrastructure of Georgia to make Saakashvili unpopular in Georgia.
It's incredible... the russians are stripping the georgian countryside, dynamiting buildings, knocking down rail bridges, destroying public assets. The public face they put on these operations is either 'uncontrolled separatist reprisals' or 'georgian renegade units'.. even 'impsoter russians'.
Meanwhile... the 'real' russians (the ones posing for the russian approved foreign media) have not withdrawn.... why? Because their bad actor units ain't done stripping the country yet and remain hopeful the Georgians, in their fury at being raped, will launch a counter attack. Then they'll be 'justified' in seizing the 'ineffective government' of the nation in it's entirety.
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Latest from Michael Ware in Georgia.
Subject.. russians increasing grip, destruction of Georgian Assets. Time stamp, about 1 hour ago
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/08/16/ware.georgia.cease.fire.cnn?iref=videosearch (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/08/16/ware.georgia.cease.fire.cnn?iref=videosearch)
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peace in our time
i hold in my hand a piece of paper signed by the president of Russia guaranteeing a cease fire and withdrawal from Georgia.
in related news Russian tanks move deeper into Georgia
is it time to send stinger missiles and anti-tank rockets to Georgia? You Russians remember them from Afghanistan don't you? Maybe you need a refresher course.
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peace in our time
i hold in my hand a piece of paper signed by the president of Russia guaranteeing a cease fire and withdrawal from Georgia.
in related news Russian tanks move deeper into Georgia
is it time to send stinger missiles and anti-tank rockets to Georgia? You Russians remember them from Afghanistan don't you? Maybe you need a refresher course.
I think so... but we should do it Korean War style; using the Russian model. They sent 'volunteers'... and first line commie equipment, ala Flying Tigers pre-WWII. I'm sure we can scrounge a few attack helicopter squadrons, a few a-10 wings, some F-22's, AWACS, J-Stars.. all volunteer, mind you; with the appropriate georgian markings. They need not be all american volunteers... I'm sure there's more than a few eastern europeans that would love to join the effort... Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Ukranians, poles would all love to come and play.
Since the only 2 ways into georgia from russia are through the mountain passes up behind s. ossetia and abkahzia; close them down first. Then destroy anything that flys or attempts to drive over the border.. Once ingress and egress to the battle zone is secured, rip the russian armor and arty to shreds, piece, by piece. Use our elint and tracking systems to destroy every single piece of russian and separatist commo gear that comes up on the air.
When it's over, deport every russian passport holder back to russia... along with their 'peekeepers', and hand over administration of the separatist area's to a true multinational peekeeping force.
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BBC now reporting Russian forces (tanks and APCs) 18 miles from Tbilisi. They have moved forward in last 24 hours. Just seen the report.
Russian army is systematically destroying the infrastructure of Georgia to make Saakashvili unpopular in Georgia.
They report Russians 30km from Tbilisi at least 3 times a day since they ran their fat NATO-trained arses from SO on Aug 8th.
Looks like Russians are just baiting the poor loosers :D Each time someone warms up a tank engine at Tskhinval - Georgians run all the way until they are 30km from Tiflis :D
Destroying infrastructure? Elaborate please. It's kinda hard to watch BBC-only 24/7. They are... Unprofessional. I'd better watch Vesti-24.
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Anyone know if the supplies we sent have made it to the Hospitals?
No they didn't. UN administration already said that humanitarian aid doesn't reach Georgian refugees, and blames it on GE autorities. Looks like Georgian police and administration is tearing Western aid apart and runs away to Turkey/Armenia/Azerbaijan.
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LOL... pitiful. Truly.
Yah REALLY gotta try harder.
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LOL... pitiful. Truly.
Yah REALLY gotta try harder.
We don't try as hard as you did in Vietnam or still "try" in Iraq and Afghanistan. I am awfully sorry. :(
Looks like people you or your friends train in Georgia again have met a superior force like back in 1972.
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Boroda, if you lived at the North Pole, you could be sold a freezer.
Actually a Freezer is a good thing to have at the North Pole, it guarantees that the food is kept in a constant state. Relying on the elements can work but the freezer is much more dependable. :aok
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well it is obvious that the great Georgian army has been subverted by the decadent americans and their stupid democracy, but as soon as georgia becomes once again part of the new soviet empire they will once again become great patriotic heroes of the mother russia.
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Anyone know if the supplies we sent have made it to the Hospitals?
http://www.unhcr.org/news/NEWS/48a5301f4.html
Meanwhile, UNHCR continues to call for free and unhindered humanitarian access and safe passage for uprooted civilians and the aid workers trying to help them. That need was underscored Thursday morning when two UNHCR vehicles were hijacked at gunpoint on the outskirts of Gori.
The UNHCR team was on an assessment mission in the Gori region to identify areas of displacement and to assess the immediate needs of people forced from their homes by the conflict which erupted last Friday.
The team was stopped just outside Gori, where people in unmarked uniforms threatened the two UNHCR staff members and forced them at gunpoint to leave their vehicles and hand over the keys. The two later made it safely back to Tbilisi. Later, authorities called from Gori to say they had recovered the vehicles.
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well it is obvious that the great Georgian army has been subverted by the decadent americans and their stupid democracy, but as soon as georgia becomes once again part of the new soviet empire they will once again become great patriotic heroes of the mother russia.
I don't think they deserve to be fed by Russians for another 200 years. First of all they need to learn how to work again. So far all of those who still remember how to perform this dangerous task move to Moscow and drive rusty Ladas we call "jihad-taxs".
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We don't try as hard as you did in Vietnam or still "try" in Iraq and Afghanistan. I am awfully sorry. :(
Looks like people you or your friends train in Georgia again have met a superior force like back in 1972.
That is some statement considering the Commies got chased out of A-stan with their tails between their legs by citizen fighters.
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We didn't lose any battles in Vietnam. We simply left.
And you got your tulips handed to you in Afghanistan, plain and simple.
Then we went it in 2001 and assisted the Northern Alliance in sweeping the country quickly. The Taliban is still mostly in hiding, and for the most part takes a whipping when they do show up.
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Oh please, Vietnam was a joke. You pulled out because you were getting whipped.
You bit off more than you could chew and took everyone else who was in it down with you.
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We shoulda listened to Patton
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Oh please, Vietnam was a joke. You pulled out because you were getting whipped.
You bit off more than you could chew and took everyone else who was in it down with you.
Not even close to being accurate.
We pulled out because of a loss of public support
Militarily we had the North on the ropes.
I suggest you try rereading your history
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That is some statement considering the Commies got chased out of A-stan with their tails between their legs by citizen fighters.
Citizen!?
You must be out of your mind.
USSR had Afghanistan under control, only a traitor like Gorby ordered withdrawal to bring the same war inside our borders.
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Citizen!?
You must be out of your mind.
USSR had Afghanistan under control, only a traitor like Gorby ordered withdrawal to bring the same war inside our borders.
:rofl MAN OH MAN. the truth is you were being anihilliated by goat herders with weaponry left over by suleyman the magnificent.
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Not even close to being accurate.
We pulled out because of a loss of public support
Militarily we had the North on the ropes.
I suggest you try rereading your history
LOL!!!
You lost 5 times more people in 5 years of involvement there then we did in 10 years in Afghan, lost thousands of ACs, employed millions of people there, CV groups and all things and got wiped out of there by underfed peasants. Underfed peasants who just 4 years after they wiped out collaborators won a war with China (!!!) and kicked Pol Pot out of Cambodia, another big friend of yours. And now live a nice and peacefull life without being milked my "liberators".
Compare it to Afghanistan, that was completely destroyed by your anoter puppet, Taliban, in the same 4 years after we have left. And then you still can't do anything there, Northern Allieance got weapons, ammo and advisors from Russia and even with such an assistance you still fail to control Kaboul and Bagram, while we controlled the whole country with less troops then you have there now.
You simply can't be brainwashed, I see it now :) Nothing to wash :(
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Latest from Michael Ware in Georgia.
Subject.. russians increasing grip, destruction of Georgian Assets. Time stamp, about 1 hour ago
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/08/16/ware.georgia.cease.fire.cnn?iref=videosearch (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/08/16/ware.georgia.cease.fire.cnn?iref=videosearch)
Looks like the Russians are trying to bait the Georgians into fighting some more so they can pull another Grozny.
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kicked Pol Pot out of Cambodia, another big friend of yours.
That ranks right up there with your denial of the Katyn Forest massacres. Pol Pot was a Communist, Pol Pot was in charge during the Cold War, during the Cold War the USA fought against communists at every turn, we had no communist friends.
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Oh please, Vietnam was a joke. You pulled out because you were getting whipped.
You bit off more than you could chew and took everyone else who was in it down with you.
LOL! Did we now? Since your an Aussie... explain this:
'I think you are honoured that I am in the army. It's not everyone my age who gets to fight in a war. I don't have any regrets about being called up and I'm even enjoying myself over here. I'm glad I came here now because now that I've been here I think 2 years National Service is a waste if you don't do time in Vietnam. The people who don't come over here don't get anything out of their two years.'
Bruce Wilson, Royal Australian Army Service Corps (national serviceman), October 1969, letter to father
'The battalion marched through Sydney ... enthusiastically cheered by the crowd and showered with confetti. ... The march through the city was an important ceremony for many soldiers, particularly those being discharged from the Army soon afterwards. ...It was a great pity that only a small proportion of the National Servicemen who served on the tour of duty took part in the march. Many had already been discharged and were not recalled for the march.'
Michael O'Brien, on returning to Australia after 7 RAR's first tour in 1967-1968, in his book, Conscripts and regulars with the Seventh Battalion in Vietnam, Allen & Unwin in association with 7RAR Association Inc., St Leonards, 1995, p.142
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We shoulda listened to Patton
True....but Boroda would still be the same delusional Boroda we know today, he'd still be denying the mass rapes in Germany and the Katyn massacres. He'd still be blaming the Finns for the fighting between the USSR and Finland. :rofl
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That ranks right up there with your denial of the Katyn Forest massacres. Pol Pot was a Communist, Pol Pot was in charge during the Cold War, during the Cold War the USA fought against communists at every turn, we had no communist friends.
Nixon/Mao doesn't ring a bell? :D
Pol Pot was a last hope to fight Evil Vietnamese for you, loosers.
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I don't for a second dishonour those that fought in Vietnam. My Father did two tours commanding an artillery battery. He was there when I was born, he was there when both of my sisters were born as well.
It was most definitely not a victory.
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Oh please, Vietnam was a joke. You pulled out because you were getting whipped.
We didn't lose on the battlefield. Public opinion had gone against the fighting in South Vietnam in large part due to the Tet Offensive of 68. Prior to that the generals and politicians had been saying things were almost wrapped up, then Tet happened and people no longer believed and just wanted out.
Congress even legislated against the promises that Nixon had made to the South Vietnamese after our combat troops left.
So no, we didn't get beaten on the battlefield, although I'd have to say we lost the political side of it.
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Nixon/Mao doesn't ring a bell? :D
Pol Pot was a last hope to fight Evil Vietnamese for you, loosers.
Nixon visiting China does not mean we were friends with them. As I recall, prior to the Nixon visit we barely had any diplomatic relations with the Chinese and Nixon's visit was intended to help start normal diplomatic relations.
Keep dreaming on Pol Pot.....because thats all it is for you, a lost pipe dream. Pol Pot and the Khymer Rouge had no hope of fighting and beating the Vietnamese forces, ever.
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Watching BBC now, they are marvelous. Even Georgian authorities don;'t report such hallucinations by themselves.
Russian soldier waving at British reporter said he's there to keep looters (marauders) away.
No indication where and when it was filmed, but Georgian police escorting Russian ZiL trucks full of soldiers is hillarious.
GE police was finally found somewhere and forced to perform it's job instead of traditional looting.
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LOL!!!
You lost 5 times more people in 5 years of involvement there then we did in 10 years in Afghan, lost thousands of ACs, employed millions of people there, CV groups and all things and got wiped out of there by underfed peasants. Underfed peasants who just 4 years after they wiped out collaborators won a war with China (!!!) and kicked Pol Pot out of Cambodia, another big friend of yours. And now live a nice and peacefull life without being milked my "liberators".
Compare it to Afghanistan, that was completely destroyed by your anoter puppet, Taliban, in the same 4 years after we have left. And then you still can't do anything there, Northern Allieance got weapons, ammo and advisors from Russia and even with such an assistance you still fail to control Kaboul and Bagram, while we controlled the whole country with less troops then you have there now.
You simply can't be brainwashed, I see it now :) Nothing to wash :(
::edit::
Nevermind
I refuse to get into a battle of wits with an unarmed person.
I'll let someone else correct you
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I don't for a second dishonour those that fought in Vietnam. My Father did two tours commanding an artillery battery. He was there when I was born, he was there when both of my sisters were born as well.
It was most definitely not a victory.
I salute to your Father, Hangtime and other Vietnam veterans.
One of the most impressive experiences I had was in Been Leigh (sp?) QLD, in an underground parking lot, where I smoked in bench where I saw some cig butts laying around. I policman or a security guard, I can't tell you, never seen AU police in 2 months, came to me and asked me to stop smoking, I said I am sorry and started to put out a cig against my sole, but he said no, let me show you a place where you can smoke. He had a medal band? sign? don't know a correct word, on his uniform, and when I asked - he said he was in Vietnam, so that's how I learned ANZAC have been to vietnam! I was really stunned... Such a sane country joining such an adventure...
Meanwhile BBC reporter keeps showing a GE map pathetically unable to correctly pronounce the town names...
Full moon and a lunar eclipse? may be that's a reason?
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::edit::
Nevermind
I refuse to get into a battle of wits with an unarmed person.
I'll let someone else correct you
I do enjoy laughing at the guy... only humorous part of the georgian tragedy is the comical prostylising of a commie denyed martyrdom for the rodina.
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::edit::
Nevermind
I refuse to get into a battle of wits with an unarmed person.
I'll let someone else correct you
Showing him the correct facts does no good anyways Dred.....you should know that. ;)
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I do enjoy laughing at the guy... only humorous part of the georgian tragedy is the comical prostylising of a commie denyed martyrdom for the rodina.
Tell me the last time you super warriors had a war on your own soil. Then STFU about my country. When Russians were dieing in 14-18 and 41-45 you just counted profits.
Watch the news from Iraq now. It's soothing, isn't it? All quiet in Baghdad, eh?
Georgian tragedy is a tragedy of a poor nation forced to face a superior force by their so-called masters who payed for military build-up when Georgian elders are starving.
Keep dancing on the bones. Nothing new for you guys.
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Tell me the last time you super warriors had a war on your own soil. Then hugs about my country. When Russians were dieing in 14-18 and 41-45 you just counted profits.
Watch the news from Iraq now. It's soothing, isn't it? All quiet in Baghdad, eh?
Georgian tragedy is a tragedy of a poor nation forced to face a superior force by their so-called masters who payed for military build-up when Georgian elders are starving.
Keep dancing on the bones. Nothing new for you guys.
Nothing quite as satisfying as a fine Commie Cuban Missile Crisis Cigar, followed by a well served Russian Whine.
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Now the Cuban Missile Crisis was a superbly played piece of politics. :aok
The USA can claim that one for sure!
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Now the Cuban Missile Crisis was a superbly played piece of politics. :aok
The USA can claim that one for sure!
Khruschev's goal was to remove Jupiter missiles from European Turkey. They covered USSR up to Kiev and maybe even Moscow.
Goal achieved.
Seriously, when Nikita visited Bulgaria he was brought to Turkish border and they showed him where American missile positions were, so he went mad and ordered to put our own missiles on Cuba.
BTW, Cuba is still independent only because of an agreement reached then.
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When Russians were dieing in 14-18 and 41-45 you just counted profits.
Granted, America was very late to the party in the first World War, but we did make it. We also had men fighting and dieing in the second World War, so lets not act like America just sat back and did nothing.
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Granted, America was very late to the party in the first World War, but we did make it. We also had men fighting and dieing in the second World War, so lets not act like America just sat back and did nothing.
Unfortunately you did nothing.
/*now i use my fav argument to piss of elfies*/
When we fought Germany chewing up 80% of it's military machine (with at least 15% out of 20% left done by Wojsko Polsko) you kept playing around some forgotten islands for 3 years, until USSR interfered and cruched Japanese Continental Army in one decisive hit that took two weeks.
Disclaimer: your argumets sound as silly to me as a paragraph above may sound to some people on "blue" side.
Plus we never burnt down whole cities like brave "allied" air forces. And that's a truth no toejam.
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BTW, Cuba is still independent only because of an agreement reached then.
Cuba would still be independent regardless. :rolleyes:
The US had no intention of taking over Cuba.
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Unfortunately you did nothing.
We did nothing? :rofl
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Plus we never burnt down whole cities like brave "allied" air forces. And that's a truth no poop.
Boroda is even worse then a pinko commie.
He's a Liberal!
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Plus we never burnt down whole cities like brave "allied" air forces.
The USSR didn't have the strategic bombers to bomb the German cities and manufacturing centers. That was taken care of by the Western Allies.
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Plus we never burnt down whole cities like brave "allied" air forces. And that's a truth no poop.
Must be Bomber Harris you are talking about there.
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Uncle Joe sent in his boys into Germany for a mass gang rape. They did eastern Europe too but they really laid it onto German woman. Most of all Berlin. I have a book thats a first hand account of it called, "A woman in Berlin". The unwashed Red horde got tacit approval from Stalin to rape German woman. Eventually the drunken rape party got out of hand and Russian officers had to start shooting troops to bring them back into some form of military discipline. The rapes got buried into history because they were a terrible secret the victims didnt even want getting out due to the stigma. A lot of German woman simply killed themselves.
This is a true story of a truly sad chapter in the war. Its true soldiers of the western Allies raped woman but nowhere near on such a scale and Yank or Brit soldiers who did it, and got convicted, faced a fireing squad.
Research it yourself if you dont believe me.
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Unfortunately you did nothing.
/*now i use my fav argument to piss of elfies*/
When we fought Germany chewing up 80% of it's military machine (with at least 15% out of 20% left done by Wojsko Polsko) you kept playing around some forgotten islands for 3 years, until USSR interfered and cruched Japanese Continental Army in one decisive hit that took two weeks.
Disclaimer: your argumets sound as silly to me as a paragraph above may sound to some people on "blue" side.
Plus we never burnt down whole cities like brave "allied" air forces. And that's a truth no poop.
Actually, your thank you to the Poles for whittling the Germans down a bit and tying up a couple of divsions was to do nothing... and afterwards, you rounded up the survivors and shot them.
As for cities destroyed... LOL; it's true, you preferred to invade, rob, rape and murder one house at a time, followed by dynamiting the homes with the corpses still in them.. a systematic use of terror your side still uses to kill cities to this day.
(http://cobb.typepad.com/cobb/images/2007/11/28/grozny2600d_belyakov.jpg)
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Uncle Joe sent in his boys into Germany for a mass gang rape. They did eastern Europe too but they really laid it onto German woman. Most of all Berlin. I have a book thats a first hand account of it called, "A woman in Berlin". The unwashed Red horde got tacit approval from Stalin to rape German woman. Eventually the drunken rape party got out of hand and Russian officers had to start shooting troops to bring them back into some form of military discipline. The rapes got buried into history because they were a terrible secret the victims didnt even want getting out due to the stigma. A lot of German woman simply killed themselves.
This is a true story of a truly sad chapter in the war. Its true soldiers of the western Allies raped woman but nowhere near on such a scale and Yank or Brit soldiers who did it, and got convicted, faced a fireing squad.
Research it yourself if you dont believe me.
That argument pisses Boroda off to no end. ;)
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Disclaimer: your argumets sound as silly to me as a paragraph above may sound to some people on "blue" side.
Your arguments, especially ones concerning Katyn forest where your own government has admitted to the atrocity are just plain ridiculous. :)
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The part about respecting VN veterans like SD's father, Hangtime, etc, while posting so much rubbish is pretty ridiculous too.
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Plus we never burnt down whole cities like brave "allied" air forces. And that's a truth no poop.
No your armies preferred to take the cities with civilians so you could rape and pillage. Something I'm sure you're proud of no?
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Cuba would still be independent regardless. :rolleyes:
The US had no intention of taking over Cuba.
Bay of Pigs?
Again, 16-years old kids threw away an invasion army trained in the US into the sea. Kids, armed with springfields and a few T-34s.
Maybe you should choose your allies more carefully? :D
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Bay of Pigs?
Bay of Pigs was an invasion by an army of Cubans, trained by the US. John F. Kennedy had promised air support and other support, but then reneged on his promises. Thats why the invasion failed. It is also a stain on our national honor. It most likely would have succeeded if the promised support had arrived. Cuba then wouldn't have had to live under communist rule for several decades.
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Maybe you should choose your allies more carefully? :D
Maybe you should choose adversaries more carefully...
Finns Attack Russians on the Raate Road in the Winter War 5 January 1940
On 5 January 1940, The Finns began an offensive on the Raate Road, near Suomussalmi and ended up destroying or capturing the Russian 44th Division. The 44th had been halted at a roadblock southeast of Suomussalmi around the present day intersection of roads 912 and 843. The Russians hunkered down along the road between Suomussalmi and Raate in what the Finns called motti formations, a logging term doubling in meaning that the 44th's sub units could be broken into smaller chunks and cut up individually like so many logs. The Finns operated in small units all along the road and and spent days conducting close range grenade attacks and terrifying the Russian officers with highly selective sniper fire. The Russians were out of their mind with cold, hunger and fear. A single sniper round fired by a Finn marksman would unleash totally undisciplined "mad minutes" from the Russians, normally killing nothing, but trees. Soon, ammunition ran short and re-supply from the air turned the starving troops into in-fighting hords. After 2 days of this nightmare, the 44th dissolved in death, capture or flight. It was the high water mark for the Finns and showed the Russians that taking the grossly outnumbered, but skilled Finns would not be a cake walk. Check out the book, Frozen Hell by William R. Trotter, which has an entire chapter dedicated to this battle.
hehehehehe... slaughtered by smaller force; panicked, helpless. Proud moment, Boroda?
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Bay of Pigs was an invasion by an army of Cubans, trained by the US. John F. Kennedy had promised air support and other support, but then reneged on his promises. Thats why the invasion failed. It is also a stain on our national honor. It most likely would have succeeded if the promised support had arrived. Cuba then wouldn't have had to live under communist rule for several decades.
Exactly what we see now in poor Georgia.
We also saw it regarding Poland in 1939.
As for living under "communism" - go diddly yourself, you don't have any idea what it is.
Anyway it's better to live on your own then to be milked by "liberators" forever.
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See Rules #4, #5
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Maybe you should choose adversaries more carefully...
Finns Attack Russians on the Raate Road in the Winter War 5 January 1940
On 5 January 1940, The Finns began an offensive on the Raate Road, near Suomussalmi and ended up destroying or capturing the Russian 44th Division. The 44th had been halted at a roadblock southeast of Suomussalmi around the present day intersection of roads 912 and 843. The Russians hunkered down along the road between Suomussalmi and Raate in what the Finns called motti formations, a logging term doubling in meaning that the 44th's sub units could be broken into smaller chunks and cut up individually like so many logs. The Finns operated in small units all along the road and and spent days conducting close range grenade attacks and terrifying the Russian officers with highly selective sniper fire. The Russians were out of their mind with cold, hunger and fear. A single sniper round fired by a Finn marksman would unleash totally undisciplined "mad minutes" from the Russians, normally killing nothing, but trees. Soon, ammunition ran short and re-supply from the air turned the starving troops into in-fighting hords. After 2 days of this nightmare, the 44th dissolved in death, capture or flight. It was the high water mark for the Finns and showed the Russians that taking the grossly outnumbered, but skilled Finns would not be a cake walk. Check out the book, Frozen Hell by William R. Trotter, which has an entire chapter dedicated to this battle.
hehehehehe... slaughtered by smaller force; panicked, helpless. Proud moment, Boroda?
And did it help them in March 1940 when Red Army finally started to fight according to regulations and broke Mannerheim Line in a matter of hours, with Soviet tanks on the ice of Finnish Gulf attacking them from the rear and nothing to stop a single Soviet platoon on the road to Helsinky?
You guys are so proud for being severely diddlyed up in Hawaii on Dec 7th 1941, it means you all suck big time, and everyone laughs at you for over 60 years now.
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Exactly what we see now in poor Georgia.
We also saw it regarding Poland in 1939.
We never promised Georgia air support or other military support. Neither did we do that for Poland in 1939. In both cases we were in no position to send troops to help, or aircraft to help. Ridiculous argument.
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Enough of it for me this morning.
I start to become ugly again, but you deserve every diddly i use.
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Again I advise you to read something.
Asian hordes of jewish bolsheviks my ass.
Any person caught on rape had to be immediately executed in front of his unit, and it's not an American "army" where you can skip executing orders you don't like as Hangtman told me before. It really happened.
Go jerk off on your first hand accounts. Also aske your grandad how many German women he bought using a pack of poopty cigarettes.
I await to hear about "Millions of raped Georgian women" from CNN. They'll show some "gome with the bind" scenes as a proof.
What a bunch of morons. Impossible to brainwash, indeed, no brains, not even a single stem-cell for an interaural gangle.
Why so much past history and anger!!
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Again I advise you to read something.
Asian hordes of jewish bolsheviks my ass.
Any person caught on rape had to be immediately executed in front of his unit, and it's not an American "army" where you can skip executing orders you don't like as Hangtman told me before. It really happened.
Go jerk off on your first hand accounts. Also aske your grandad how many German women he bought using a pack of poopty cigarettes.
I await to hear about "Millions of raped Georgian women" from CNN. They'll show some "gome with the bind" scenes as a proof.
What a bunch of morons. Impossible to brainwash, indeed, no brains, not even a single stem-cell for an interaural gangle.
I told you Rich.
You can't handle the truth about your own country Boroda. I can handle the truth about mine and admit when mine has made mistakes.
Go to this link, you will see atrocities listed by both sides. I copy/pasted a couple from your country.
http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres_axis.html#Germany
REVENGE AT NEUSTETTIN (February, 1945)
On the 16th of February, soldiers of the First White Russian Army occupied the town of Neustettin just inside the German border with Poland. In the town was the 'Wilmsee' camp of the German R.A.D. (Reich Women's Labour Service). In the huts were some 500 uniformed girls of the RAD. They were taken to the foreign workers barracks at the local iron foundry. All were considered by the Russians to be members of an illegal army. In an office set up by the Russian commissar groups of girls were brought in and ordered to undress. Two men (believed to be Poles) then entered and grabbing one of the girls bent her backwards over the edge of a table and then proceeded to cut off her breasts before the eyes of the others. Her screams were accompanied by cheers and howls of approval from the Russians. The same fate awaited all the others each procedure becoming ever more cruel. More girls were brought in continually and out in the courtyard hundreds were clubbed to death, only the prettiest being led to the commissars office for torture and death. A few days later when a German tank unit from Cottbus temporarily recaptured the town they were utterly devastated by what they saw. Survivors told of what they had seen. Mothers had to witness their ten and twelve year old daughters being raped by up to twenty soldiers, the daughters in turn witnessing their mothers being raped, even their grandmothers. In most houses in the town nearly every room contained naked and dead women with the Swastika symbol crudely carved on their abdomens. No mercy was shown to the women and girls of Neustettin. It is estimated that about 2,000 girls that had been in the RAD and BDM (League of German Girls) camps in and around the town were raped and murdered in the few days of the Soviet occupation.
GANG RAPE IN NEMMERSDORF
Just inside the east Prussian border with Soviet occupied Lithuania, the town of Nemmersdorf was the first to fall (temporarily) into the hands of the victorious Red Army. Overrun by General Gatlitsky's 11th Guards Army, his soldiers, crazy with bloodlust, set about raping, looting and killing with such ferocity that eventually discipline had to be restored to force the soldiers back to fighting the war. From buildings, Russian signs were hung which read 'Soldiers! Majdanek does not forgive. Take revenge without mercy!'. When the Soviet 4th Army took over the town five days later, hardly a single inhabitant remained alive. Women were found nailed to barn doors after being stripped naked and gang raped, their bodies then used for target practice. Many women, and girls as young as eight years old, were raped so often and brutally that they died from this abuse alone. Children were shot indiscriminately and all those trying to flee were crushed to death under the treads of the Soviet tanks. Forty French prisoners-of-war were shot on the spot as spies after welcoming the Red Army as liberators. Seventy one women and one man were found in houses, all dead. All the women, including girls aged from eight to twelve, had been raped.
In other East Prussian villages within the triangle Gumbinnen-Goldap-Ebenrode, the same scenes were witnessed, old men and boys being castrated and their eyes gouged out before being killed or burned alive. In nearby Metgethen, a suburb of Königsberg, recaptured by the German 5th Panzer Division, around 60 women were found in a demented state in a large villa. They had been raped on average 60 to 70 times a day. In nearly every home, the bodies of women and children were found raped and murdered. The bodies of two young women were found, their legs had been tied one limb each between two trucks, and then torn apart when the trucks were driven away in opposite directions. At Metgethen railway station, a refugee train from Konigsberg, consisting of seven passenger coaches, was found and in each compartment seven to nine bestially mutilated bodies were discovered. To the Russians, refugee trains were ideal sources of women and booty. In the town of Niesse in Silesia, 182 Catholic nuns were raped and debauched daily by the Russians.
In a house in another town children were found sitting around a dinner table, plates of potato pancakes in front of them. All were dead, their tongues nailed to the table. Soviet officers reported back to Moscow that mass poisoning from captured alcohol, including dangerous chemicals found in laboratories, is damaging the fighting capacity of the Red Army. All too often, soldiers who had drunk too much and were unable to perform the sex act, used the bottle to mutilate their victims obscenely. Alexander Solzhenitsyn, an ex-captain in the Soviet Army, recalls, "All of us knew very well that if girls were German they could be raped and then shot. This was almost a combat distinction" (Details of these, and other atrocities, are contained in the Eastern Documentation Section of the German Federal Archives in Berlin)
The orgy of rape by Soviet troops was far greater than at first believed. Even Russian women and young girls, newly liberated from concentration camps in Poland and in Germany, were brutally violated. The thousands of Russian women taken to Germany for forced labour also fell victims to the rapists. 'I waited for the Red Army for days and nights. I waited for my liberation, but now our soldiers treat us far worse than the Germans did' said one Maria Shapoval,'They do terrible things to us'.
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Oh please, Vietnam was a joke. You pulled out because you were getting whipped.
You bit off more than you could chew and took everyone else who was in it down with you.
That's the mass media BS. Read "A Better War: The Unexamined Victories and Final Tragedy of America's Last Years in Vietnam" by Lewis Sorely. Extremely well documented and footnoted. You can verify just about everything says.
Read that and get back to me. Right now, you just don't know what you are talking about.
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Anyway it's better to live on your own then to be milked by "liberators" forever.
This milk is like a drug. Mr Saakashvili is starting to chew his tie without milk :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azE99D6epEg
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I told you Rich.
You can't handle the truth about your own country Boroda. I can handle the truth about mine and admit when mine has made mistakes.
Go to this link, you will see atrocities listed by both sides. I copy/pasted a couple from your country.
http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres_axis.html#Germany
I was going to post Hartmann's experience on capture, but I got about a quarter of the way through typing it and decided it was way too much for these forums.
However, after the initial rape of young German girls in front of the restrained German men, and then the first night where several of the German families committed suicide, some Russian officers showed up and organized things... When a few Russian soldiers decided it would be a good idea to do this again, all three of them were hanged.
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I told you Rich.
You can't handle the truth about your own country Boroda. I can handle the truth about mine and admit when mine has made mistakes.
About as a good a point has been made against comrade boroda. I dont recall him <boroda> ever admiting to the error of his leaders. he is a rubber stamp if ever there was one.
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A superb speech... timeless, and deserves a play now.
"The greater risk lies in appeasement"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tu-YRwDpvM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tu-YRwDpvM)
'You and I have a rendezvous with destiny..."
Sent a chill down my spine. This guy showed us how stop the bear once.. the forgotten lesson needs to be learned again.
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comrade boroda. he is a rubber stamp if ever there was one.
:O:lol :rofl
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A superb speech... timeless, and deserves a play now.
"The greater risk lies in appeasement"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tu-YRwDpvM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tu-YRwDpvM)
'You and I have a rendezvous with destiny..."
Sent a chill down my spine. This guy showed us how stop the bear once.. the forgotten lesson needs to be learned again.
Ronald Reagan, The Great Communicator and our last great president. :salute
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When we fought Germany chewing up 80% of it's military machine (with at least 15% out of 20% left done by Wojsko Polsko) you kept playing around some forgotten islands for 3 years, until USSR interfered and cruched Japanese Continental Army in one decisive hit that took two weeks.
I wasn't going to dignify this statement with a rebuttal but I feel something needs to be said.
In 1939 Hitler's armies crossed into Poland and began the most devastating war our world has ever seen. Millions died on all sides, combatants and non-combatants alike.
Each Allied country put forth maximum effort to defeat the Nazi war machine. Great Britain and the Commonwealth Nations stood alone against Hitler's Third Reich for a time. The USSR suffered the heaviest casualties of all the Allied nations and paid the greatest price. America's great industrial power armed not only the American forces but also helped to arm many of the Allied nations as well.
Each Allied country, put forth effort according to it's strengths. Without that maximum effort from every Allied nation Hitler's Third Reich might not have been defeated. It took all of us to beat Hitler and his armies.
You will never see me belittle the USSR's efforts against Hitler, ever. Your attempt to belittle America's effort in World War II doesn't anger me. I simply find it disgusting.
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I wasn't going to dignify this statement with a rebuttal but I feel something needs to be said.
In 1939 Hitler's armies crossed into Poland and began the most devastating war our world has ever seen. Millions died on all sides, combatants and non-combatants alike.
Each Allied country put forth maximum effort to defeat the Nazi war machine. Great Britain and the Commonwealth Nations stood alone against Hitler's Third Reich for a time. The USSR suffered the heaviest casualties of all the Allied nations and paid the greatest price. America's great industrial power armed not only the American forces but also helped to arm many of the Allied nations as well.
Each Allied country, put forth effort according to it's strengths. Without that effort maixum effort from every Allied nation Hitler's Third Reich might not have been defeated. It took all of us to beat Hitler and his armies.
You will never see me belittle the USSR's efforts against Hitler, ever. Your attempt to belittle America's effort in World War II doesn't anger me. I simply find it disgusting.
Very well stated.
you can't reaaly blame Boroda for his position. he is simply a result of the soviet/KGB propaganda machine.
It took all sides to defeat germany in ww11. the current russians are just over blown windbags.
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The USSR suffered the heaviest casualties of all the Allied nations and paid the greatest price.
A fate richly deserved for doing this:
The terms of the German-Soviet Non-aggression Pact were briefly as follows : the two countries agreed not to attack each other, either independently or in conjunction with other powers ; not to support any third power that might attack the other party to the pact ; to remain in consultation with each other upon questions touching their common interests ; not to join any group of powers directly or indirectly threatening one of the two parties ; to solve all differences between the two by negotiation or arbitration. The pact was to last for 10 years, with automatic extension for another 5 years unless either party gave notice to terminate it 1 year before its expiration.
To this public pact of non-aggression was appended a secret protocol (Aug. 23, 1939) dividing the whole of eastern Europe into German and Soviet spheres of influence. Poland east of the line formed by the Narew, Vistula, and San rivers would fall under the Soviet sphere of influence. The protocol also assigned Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, and Finland to the Soviet sphere of influence and, further, broached the subject of the separation of Bessarabia from Romania. A secret supplementary protocol (signed Sept. 28, 1939) clarified the Lithuanian borders. The Polish-German border was also determined, and Bessarabia was assigned to the Soviet sphere of influence. In a third secret protocol (signed Jan. 10, 1941, by Count Friedrich Werner von Schulenberg and Molotov), Germany renounced its claims to portions of Lithuania in return for Soviet payment of a sum agreed upon by the two countries.
The public German-Soviet Non-aggression Pact caused consternation in the capitals of Britain and France. After Germany invaded Poland from the west on Sept. 1, 1939, Soviet troops invaded Poland from the east on September 17, meeting the advancing Germans near Brest-Litovsk two days later. The partition of Poland was effected on September 29 ; at this time the dividing line between German and Soviet territory was changed in Germany's favour, being moved eastward to the Bug River (i.e., the current Polish-Soviet frontier). The Soviets soon afterward sought to consolidate their "sphere of influence" as a defensive barrier to renewed German aggression in the east. Accordingly, the Soviet Union attacked Finland on November 30 and forced it in March 1940 to yield the Isthmus of Carelia and make other concessions. The Baltic republics of Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia were annexed by the Soviet Union and were organized as Soviet republics in August 1940. The Non-aggression Pact became a dead letter on June 22, 1941, when Nazi Germany, after having invaded much of western and central Europe, attacked the Soviet Union without warning in Operation Barbarossa.
If I was FDR or Churchill, I would have let Hitler have Uncle Joe's balls for breakfast.
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you can't reaaly blame Boroda for his position. he is simply a result of the soviet/KGB propaganda machine.
I can agree that he is a product of the Soviet/KGB propaganda machine. Otoh, it is HIS choice to continue to believe the propaganda lies he was taught instead of finding out the facts for himself.....his choice. It is a choice he has admitted he has made to retain his sanity.
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I would have let Hitler have Uncle Joe's balls for breakfast.
Patton wanted to fight the Russians, in fact he insisted that we would have to fight them sooner or later. The statement, Give me 10 days and I'll make it look like their fault, is attributed to Patton. I've often wondered how different the world might be today if the powers that be had removed Patton's leash.
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Patton wanted to fight the Russians, in fact he insisted that we would have to fight them sooner or later. The statement, Give me 10 days and I'll make it look like their fault, is attributed to Patton. I've often wondered how different the world might be today if the powers that be had removed Patton's leash.
Keep an eye on the news. I've been seeing all kinds' of things since the cease-fire that are starting to look like there might be a round two pretty quick. The Russian's initially agreed to a cease fire when the U.S. started to demand they did; However, not a day or so after they quit advancing (By their account) Poland signed the missile deal. Well...when that happened, instead of withrawing back to their start lines' in Northern Ossetia as was outlined in the Cease-fire, the turned around and dug in and fortified the positions' they had taken in Georgia:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080817/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia;_ylt=Apgn0AZigcoaYT69kyBGwwJg.3QA (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080817/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia;_ylt=Apgn0AZigcoaYT69kyBGwwJg.3QA)
I'm wondering if this is some kind of attempt to get the U.S. to cancel the missile deal, since The poles' suddenly signed it through during this Georgian thing. I'm thinking that the signing blindsided Putin, who probably thought that Poland would have been scared away from the U.S. during this whole crisis. Instead, it backfired on him, and Round 2 actually goes' to the U.S.
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And did it help them in March 1940 when Red Army finally started to fight according to regulations and broke Mannerheim Line in a matter of hours, with Soviet tanks on the ice of Finnish Gulf attacking them from the rear and nothing to stop a single Soviet platoon on the road to Helsinky?
You guys are so proud for being severely masked up in Hawaii on Dec 7th 1941, it means you all suck big time, and everyone laughs at you for over 60 years now.
Umm those lines exist only (and I repeat) only in soviet history books. First of all soviet troops never advanced to the level of actual 'Mannerheim line' let alone break it. They did manouver on the sea ice west of Viipuri in an attempt to break supply lines to the front. From there they would have had an open road in theory to Helsinki, via land. The attack was stoped by the coastal artillery even though only a couple guns were operational. Finland was totally unprepared for war if you remember? Our naive politicians had cut all military funding for years in trust of russian good will. If tanks would have tried to approach Helsinki from sea ice they would have faced Suomenlinna fortifications with several bunkered anti-ship 150-300mm artillery that had the most advanced targeting system of the time. Similar weapons wreaked havoc during similar attack attempts near Viipuri. The tank / personnel colonies are sitting ducks on open flat ice which gets punched out by cannons. Few missed rounds too short and the ice is filled with 20m wide holes exposing 3c warm seawater.. FYI if a person drops in 3c warm water he has around 2 minutes to live even without anyone shooting at him.
Russian troops suffered horrible casualties when the leadership ordered them to mass attack on suicide missions like that over and over. That's why the casualty rates are the highest - something you should think about.
With your 10:1 superiority in numbers the original plan was to march to Helsinki in 2 weeks. That's why the first colonnies of invaders had parade gear and banners ready with them, later retrieved when the encirclered colonny was destroyed.
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I'm wondering if this is some kind of attempt to get the U.S. to cancel the missile deal,
If the reports of Russian units digging in is true, it very well could be. Although I can't see Bush selling out Poland after signing the deal.
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dont knock the guy! boroda is the most insane fun this board has ever, or will ever, experience!
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Umm those lines exist only (and I repeat) only in soviet history books. First of all soviet troops never advanced to the level of actual 'Mannerheim line' let alone break it. They did manouver on the sea ice west of Viipuri in an attempt to break supply lines to the front. From there they would have had an open road in theory to Helsinki, via land. The attack was stoped by the coastal artillery even though only a couple guns were operational. Finland was totally unprepared for war if you remember? Our naive politicians had cut all military funding for years in trust of russian good will. If tanks would have tried to approach Helsinki from sea ice they would have faced Suomenlinna fortifications with several bunkered anti-ship 150-300mm artillery that had the most advanced targeting system of the time. Similar weapons wreaked havoc during similar attack attempts near Viipuri. The tank / personnel colonies are sitting ducks on open flat ice which gets punched out by cannons. Few missed rounds too short and the ice is filled with 20m wide holes exposing 3c warm seawater.. FYI if a person drops in 3c warm water he has around 2 minutes to live even without anyone shooting at him.
Russian troops suffered horrible casualties when the leadership ordered them to mass attack on suicide missions like that over and over. That's why the casualty rates are the highest - something you should think about.
With your 10:1 superiority in numbers the original plan was to march to Helsinki in 2 weeks. That's why the first colonnies of invaders had parade gear and banners ready with them, later retrieved when the encirclered colonny was destroyed.
So you say Mannerheim line wasn't broken!?
In March 1940 your stupid "parliament" sitting in a village on a Swedish border had to admit that all means of resistance are exausted and begged for peace.
It was a catastrophe, and your "democracy" dragged your poor country there.
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I told you Rich.
You can't handle the truth about your own country Boroda. I can handle the truth about mine and admit when mine has made mistakes.
Go to this link, you will see atrocities listed by both sides. I copy/pasted a couple from your country.
http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres_axis.html#Germany
Absolutely hillarious answer. Nemmersdorf was arranged by SS for Goebbels propaganda. It's a well-known fact. The only 'known" documented fact of Soviet rapes :D
I understand your attention to the first-hand account rape book. Where do you keep it? With old Playboys? Can you still open it or all the pages are glued together? Or you have a hardcover special edition on washable paper? :D
Do you discuss it with your wife if you have any?
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The victors write history, the losers remember it.
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So you say Mannerheim line wasn't broken!?
In March 1940 your stupid "parliament" sitting in a village on a Swedish border had to admit that all means of resistance are exausted and begged for peace.
It was a catastrophe, and your "democracy" dragged your poor country there.
ROFL..
A little country, with a history of kicking your tulips every time you tried to invade, kicked your asses. Again.
And they did it without help from the west. They had Brewster Buffalo fighters... and even THEY tore your airforce up. Can you imagine? Buffalos established and retained air superiority! Finland was the only country that faced you down... was the only one that managed to NOT become absorbed into your stinking putrefied soviet empire and suffer rape, murder, looting. The Finns lost 25,000 men in that war... and the russians lost over a million. They didn't just kick your tulips Boroda... they crushed you.
<S!> The Finns! There's a sign just over the border there... "Welcome to Free Finland. Unless your Russian".
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ROFL..
A little country, with a history of kicking your tulips every time you tried to invade, kicked your asses. Again.
And they did it without help from the west. They had Brewster Buffalo fighters... and even THEY tore your airforce up. Can you imagine? Buffalos established and retained air superiority! Finland was the only country that faced you down... was the only one that managed to NOT become absorbed into your stinking putrefied soviet empire and suffer rape, murder, looting. The Finns lost 25,000 men in that war... and the russians lost over a million. They didn't just kick your tulips Boroda... they crushed you.
<S!> The Finns! There's a sign just over the border there... "Welcome to Free Finland. Unless your Russian".
Hang, you are hillarious. Finns kicked Soviet bellybutton and Americans won Vietnam war. Are you writing this from another dimesion? :D
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The Finns kicked Soviet ass. They were invaded, and pushed the invaders back into USSR territory. But being outnumbered many times over it was hopeless as a war of attrition.
It is hard to find a better spanking in military history than what the Finns did to the USSR, and you should pause Boroda, and try to imagine what it would have looked like if the Finnish force had been like 10 times bigger.....
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It was the USSR's glorious performance in Finland that convinced Hitler that Barbarossa would be a walk in the park.
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Absolutely hillarious answer. Nemmersdorf was arranged by SS for Goebbels propaganda. It's a well-known fact. The only 'known" documented fact of Soviet rapes :D
I understand your attention to the first-hand account rape book. Where do you keep it? With old Playboys? Can you still open it or all the pages are glued together? Or you have a hardcover special edition on washable paper? :D
Do you discuss it with your wife if you have any?
Boroda you sound like a nincompoop. You know what a nincompoop is? Its a Russian dribbling nonsense in bad English. If your going to insult us then please use Russian instead. We may not understand it mind you but at least you wont sound like a 4'th grader.
I give some examples since you obviosly cant type "ww2 russian rapes" into a search engine your ownself, "or your Govt. censors dont allow such Internet investigations". http://www.usm.maine.edu/crm/faculty/jim/raphael.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes
That the invading Russians raped German woman on a mass scale cant really be argued. While Stalin never issued a direct order to do so on several occasions he made light on the matter, once saying "you cant expect a young man to travel thru fire and death and not want a woman", or words to that effect. So his commanders proceeded under the impression Stalin approved of it, and no doubt he did.
There were plenty of dissenters, and, Russian soldiers who didnt rape anyone. The dissenters were quieted out of fear.
German woman learned survival skills. They would usually attach themselves to the highest ranking Russian they could find so's all the others would leave them alone. Another survival skill they learned was to never go out of the house without a child in tow. Any child, as long as it appeared to be theirs. The Russian mindset being very protective of children and respectful of motherhood, a very strange conflict of morality.
Mind you this was a victorious, superbly disciplined, army rolling into Berlin in May of 1945. Very probably the best army in the world at the time.
And compared to what happened on the eastern front the western front was a tea party as far as atrocities go. The invading Germans were absolutly ruthless with the Russians they came across. Russian POWs, the ones they didnt just shoot, were almost always starved to death while in captivity. It was, in many way, a complicated situation. And one full of hatreds we in the west will probably never understand.
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Boroda you sound like a nincompoop. You know what a nincompoop is? Its a Russian dribbling nonsense in bad English. If your going to insult us then please use Russian instead. We may not understand it mind you but at least you wont sound like a 4'th grader.
I give some examples since you obviosly cant type "ww2 russian rapes" into a search engine your ownself, "or your Govt. censors dont allow such Internet investigations". http://www.usm.maine.edu/crm/faculty/jim/raphael.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes
That the invading Russians raped German woman on a mass scale cant really be argued. While Stalin never issued a direct order to do so on several occasions he made light on the matter, once saying "you cant expect a young man to travel thru fire and death and not want a woman", or words to that effect. So his commanders proceeded under the impression Stalin approved of it, and no doubt he did.
There were plenty of dissenters, and, Russian soldiers who didnt rape anyone. The dissenters were quieted out of fear.
German woman learned survival skills. They would usually attach themselves to the highest ranking Russian they could find so's all the others would leave them alone. Another survival skill they learned was to never go out of the house without a child in tow. Any child, as long as it appeared to be theirs. The Russian mindset being very protective of children and respectful of motherhood, a very strange conflict of morality.
Mind you this was a victorious, superbly disciplined, army rolling into Berlin in May of 1945. Very probably the best army in the world at the time.
And compared to what happened on the eastern front the western front was a tea party as far as atrocities go. The invading Germans were absolutly ruthless with the Russians they came across. Russian POWs, the ones they didnt just shoot, were almost always starved to death while in captivity. It was, in many way, a complicated situation. And one full of hatreds we in the west will probably never understand.
yup
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And compared to what happened on the eastern front the western front was a tea party as far as atrocities go. The invading Germans were absolutly ruthless with the Russians they came across. Russian POWs, the ones they didnt just shoot, were almost always starved to death while in captivity. It was, in many way, a complicated situation. And one full of hatreds we in the west will probably never understand.
:aok
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Bush, Putin, Sarkozy and Brown assembled for a conference. After days of conferring they decided to take a break — they would go to India to catch elephants.
Well, they did, and the very first day, towards nightfall, they caught an elephant. Now, what were they to do with it? They decided to tie it to a tree and agreed to take turns in guarding it.
The first on guard was President Bush. He stood guard for two hours, woke Sarkozy, then went to sleep. Sarkozy stood guard for two hours, woke Brown, then went to sleep. Brown stood guard for two hours, woke Putin, then went to sleep. Putin went to sleep too.
In the morning they woke up and there was no elephant.
'Where's the elephant?' they ask Putin.
'What elephant?'
'What do you mean "What elephant"?' The others are indignant. 'Did we come to India to catch elephants?'
'We did.'
'Did we catch an elephant?'
'We did.'
'Did we tie it to a tree?'
'We did.'
'Did we agree to take turns guarding it?'
'We did.'
'Did Bush stand guard?'
'He did.'
'Did he hand the elephant over to Sarkozy?'
'He did.'
'Did Sarkozy stand guard?'
'He did.'
'Did he hand the elephant over to Brown?'
'He did.'
'Did Brown stand guard?'
'He did.'
'Did he hand the elephant over to you?'
'He did.'
'Then, where is the elephant?'
'What elephant?'
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(http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/RJR.BLOG.JPG)
R.J. Rummel
Professor Emeritus of Political Science. Has written over twenty-five books and a hundred articles, and has received numerous grants from NSF, ARPA, and the United States Peace Research Institute. Frequently nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. Received the Susan Strange Award of the International Studies Association for having intellectually most challenged the field in 1999; the Lifetime Achievement Award 2003 from the Conflict Processes Section, American Political Science Association; and the 2007 The International Association of Genocide Scholars' Award for Distinguished Lifetime Contribution to the Field of Genocide and Democide Studies and Prevention.
R.J. Rummel is one of the most qualified and respected people on the planet when it comes to Genocide and Democide.
His website can be found HERE (http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/welcome.html)
This is what he said about Stalin.
Tuesday, April 26, 2005
How Many Did Stalin Really Murder?
May Day is coming up, which used to be a day of celebration in the Soviet Union with an impressive show of weapons and infinitely long parade of soldiers. Perhaps, then, it would be appropriate to pay special attention on this day to the human cost of communism in this symbolic home of Marxism, and worldwide. This blog is on Stalin and the Soviet Union. I will post one on the overall cost of communism next week.
By far, the consensus figure for those that Joseph Stalin murdered when he ruled the Soviet Union is 20,000,000. You probably have come across this many times. Just to see how numerous this total is, look up “Stalin” and “20 million” in Google, and you will get 38,800 links. Not all settle just on the 20,000,000. Some links will make this the upper and some the lower limit in a range. Yet, virtually no one who uses this estimate has gone to the source, for if they did and knew something about Soviet history, they would realize that the 20,000,000 is a gross under estimate of what is likely the true human toll.
The figure comes from the book by Robert Conquest, The Great Terror: Stalin’s Purge of the Thirties (Macmillan 1968). In his appendix on casualty figures, he reviews a number of estimates of those that were killed under Stalin, and calculates that the number of executions 1936 to 1938 was probably about 1,000,000; that from 1936 to 1950 about 12,000,000 died in the camps; and 3,500,000 died in the 1930-1936 collectivization. Overall, he concludes:
Thus we get a figure of 20 million dead, which is almost certainly too low and might require an increase of 50 percent or so, as the debit balance of the Stalin regime for twenty-three years.
In all the times I've seen Conquest’s 20,000,000 reported, not once do I recall seeing his qualification attached to it.
Considering that Stalin died in 1953, note what Conquest did not include -- camp deaths after 1950, and before 1936; executions 1939-53; the vast deportation of the people of captive nations into the camps, and their deaths 1939-1953; the massive deportation within the Soviet Union of minorities 1941-1944; and their deaths; and those the Soviet Red Army and secret police executed throughout Eastern Europe after their conquest during 1944-1945 is omitted. Moreover, omitted is the deadly Ukrainian famine Stalin purposely imposed on the region and that killed 5 million in 1932-1934. So, Conquest’s estimates are spotty and incomplete.
I did a comprehensive overview of available estimates, including those by Conquest, and wrote a book, Lethal Politics, on Soviet democide to provide understanding and context for my figures. I calculate that the Communist regime, 1917-1987, murdered about 62,000,000 people, around 55,000,000 of them citizens (see Table 1.1 for a periodization of the deaths).
(http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/USSR.TAB1.1.GIF)
As for Stalin, when the holes in Conquest’s estimates are filled in, I calculate that Stalin murdered about 43,000,000 citizens and foreigners, over twice Conquest’s total. Therefore, the usual estimate of 20 million killed in Soviet democide is far off for the Soviet Union per se, and even less than half of the total Stalin alone murdered.
But, these are all statistics and hard to grasp. Compare my total of 62,000,000 for the Soviet Union and 43,000,000 for Stalin to the death from slavery of 37,000,000 during the 16th to the 19th century; or to the death of from 25,000,000 to 75,000,000 in the Black Death (bubonic plague), 1347-1351, that depopulated Europe.
Another way of looking at this is that the annual risk of a person under Soviet control being murdered by the regime was 1 out of 222. But, compare -- the annual risk of anyone in the world dying from war was 1 out of 5,556, from smoking a pack of cigarettes a day was 1 out of 278, from any cancer was 1 out of 357, or for an American to die in an auto accident was 1 out of 4,167.
Now, I must ask, with perhaps an unconscious touch of outrage in my voice, why is this death by Marxism, so incredible and significant in its magnitude, unknown or unappreciated compared to the importance given slavery, cancer deaths, auto accident deaths, and so on. Especially, especially I must add again, when unlike cancer, auto accidents, and smoking, those deaths under Marxism in the Soviet Union were intentionally caused? They were murdered.
Anyway, when you see again the figure of 20,000,000 deaths for Stalin or the Soviet Union, double or triple them in your mind.
We owe respect to the living; to the dead we owe only truth
----Voltaire. Oeuvres Vol. I, p. 15n
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a comprehensive overview of available estimates, including those by Conquest, and wrote a book, Lethal Politics, on Soviet democide to provide understanding and context for my figures. I calculate that the Communist regime, 1917-1987, murdered about 62,000,000 people, around 55,000,000 of them citizens
Holy Crap!
staggers the mind... and 55 million of them citizens. Anybody tell the ossets yet?
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Holy Crap!
staggers the mind...
Makes Hitler look benevolent in comparison.
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(http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/RJR.BLOG.JPG)
R.J. Rummel is one of the most qualified and respected people on the planet when it comes to Genocide and Democide.
His website can be found HERE (http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/welcome.html)
This is what he said about Stalin.
We owe respect to the living; to the dead we owe only truth
----Voltaire. Oeuvres Vol. I, p. 15n
62 million?!
Is this guy nuts?!
62 million, then 27 million killed in a War, then why is still somebody living here?!
That schnobel prize nominee is a dumb diddly.
Official numbers are well-known, agreed by Western historians and they are 20 times smaller then this brainshit.
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See Rules #4, #5
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See Rule #5
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62 million?!
Is this guy nuts?!
62 million, then 27 million killed in a War, then why is still somebody living here?!
That schnobel prize nominee is a dumb mask.
Official numbers are well-known, agreed by Western historians and they are 20 times smaller then this brainpoop.
Comrade Boroda,
I can't speak for anyone else here on this forum, but you have sucessfully swayed my opinion towards the communist favor.
With that in mind, I would like to show my dedication to Vladimir Putin and the rest of the magnificent KGB/Empire by divulging some highly classified information as follows:
A rook CV has been spotted heading NW towards our knight base A26. a two pronged attack is planned with GV's from V24 spawning in as well.
The bishops are planning an NOE attack on our Knight base P14 and their CV group 23 will follow up shortly behind.
Please forward this to Vladimir at top priority.
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See Rules #4, #5
Boroda you do realize you're committing a criminal slander and threat to another posters life there? It's obvious that you're a fanatic with zero respect to your fellow posters and from what I've gathered, humanity and western values in general.
The sad part is that Russia was slowly but surely becoming accepted as an equal partner with the western community. Your every action, including your posts alienate you again. In United Kingdom they're already talking about revoking visas from Russians - you're becoming a nation worth of persona non gratas. Fast.
It's like you're working hard to fullfill the stereotypes and myths surrounding your people..
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Absolutely hillarious answer. Nemmersdorf was arranged by SS for Goebbels propaganda. It's a well-known fact. The only 'known" documented fact of Soviet rapes
What motive did the Germans have to stage that? The Germans may have been brutal in their war against the USSR and their brutality in the concentration camps vs lesser races is well documented.....yet they never showed that kind of brutality to their own.
http://www.geocities.com/avflf/RedTerror_1.htm
http://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=20806&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
Further, testimony from a former Soviet Captain, Alexander Solzhenitsyn, adds to the evidence of the behaviour of the Soviet Army.
The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau (Alfred Maurice de Zayas)
Berlin, The Downfall (Antony Beevor)
Allierte Kriegsverbrechen und Vebrechen gegen Menschlikeit (Allied war Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity - Arndt Verlag)
Verbrechen gegen der Deustchen Volk (Crimes against German people - Erich Kern)
Flucht aus Ostpreußen 1945. Die Menschenjagd der Roten Armee (Flight from East Prussia 1945: The pursue of the Red Army - Heinz Schoen)
Flucht und Vertreibung der Deutschen: Die Tragödie im Osten und im Sudetenland (Flight and Expulsions of the Germans: The tragedy in East and in Sudentenland - Joachim Nolywaika)
The End at Elbe (Das Ende an der Elbe - German) (Jurgen Thorwald)
Im Heimatland in Feindeshand: Schicksale ostpreußischer Frauen unter Russen und Polen 1945-1948 (Homeland in Enemy Hands: The fate of East Prussian Women under Russians and Poles in 1945-1948 - Heinz Shoen)
Of course, you won't actually read any of this stuff, you will just make poor attempts to discredit it.
It takes a pretty sick individual to suggest that someone might achieve sexual gratification over the mass rapes of women. Might I suggest psychiatric assistance comrade?
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62 million?!
Is this guy nuts?!
62 million, then 27 million killed in a War, then why is still somebody living here?!
That schnobel prize nominee is a dumb mask.
Official numbers are well-known, agreed by Western historians and they are 20 times smaller then this brainpoop.
So Stalin only killed 2 million of his own people. What a saint.
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The sad part is that Russia was slowly but surely becoming accepted as an equal partner with the western community. Your every action, including your posts alienate you again. In United Kingdom they're already talking about revoking visas from Russians - you're becoming a nation worth of persona non gratas. Fast.
Well stated. The West wanted Russia to become an equal partner in the world community. By their own actions they are forcing themselves into persona non grata status.
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62 million, then 27 million killed in a War, then why is still somebody living here?!
Birth rates were higher than the death rates? Just saying..... :D
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Boroda you do realize you're committing a criminal slander and threat to another posters life there? It's obvious that you're a fanatic with zero respect to your fellow posters and from what I've gathered, humanity and western values in general.
The sad part is that Russia was slowly but surely becoming accepted as an equal partner with the western community. Your every action, including your posts alienate you again. In United Kingdom they're already talking about revoking visas from Russians - you're becoming a nation worth of persona non gratas. Fast.
It's like you're working hard to fullfill the stereotypes and myths surrounding your people..
I don't hold it against him. Boroda is torn between what he knows is right and what he sees his beloved country doing. Enough to make anyone a little crazy.
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Boroda is increasingly looking like a personification of the Russian state on the international stage. It's interesting. Sometimes, it's quite sad in actual fact and I only feel only pity towards him. He must have lead a hard life to be where he is today. I met Russians in 1990 when I was 11 years old on a visit to Moscow and Leningrad, and wonder how they would see the world now. It would be interesting to compare with Boroda and his bluster.
Of course, other times I just think he is a cynical tosspiece.
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Boroda is increasingly looking like a personification of the Russian state on the international stage. It's interesting. It's quite sad in actual fact. I only feel only pity towards him. He must have lead a hard life to be where he is today.
Other times I think he is a cynical tosspiece.
It's been said that the people that think and believe this way in modern Russia, were in Pre-Soviet collapse days, all party members, with ties to either the politburo or one of the other Soviet government agencies. They grew up in dachas' in the warmer regions, never had to worry about their ration cards, always had plenty of rubles, etc.
A hard life in the former USSR could be living on a collective farm, trying to grow enough food of your own to eat in your alotted plot, and never having enough to go around. Tales' of hardship are out there...but you never see anyone telling it, who will turn around and trumpet praise of the communist party, either. That was for the commisars'.
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Boroda you do realize you're committing a criminal slander and threat to another posters life there? It's obvious that you're a fanatic with zero respect to your fellow posters and from what I've gathered, humanity and western values in general.
Absolutely..
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It's been said that the people that think and believe this way in modern Russia, were in Pre-Soviet collapse days, all party members, with ties to either the politburo or one of the other Soviet government agencies. They grew up in dachas' in the warmer regions, never had to worry about their ration cards, always had plenty of rubles, etc.
A hard life in the former USSR could be living on a collective farm, trying to grow enough food of your own to eat in your alotted plot, and never having enough to go around. Tales' of hardship are out there...but you never see anyone telling it, who will turn around and trumpet praise of the communist party, either. That was for the commisars'.
Iirc Boroda's father was an officer in the Red army and Boroda himself was an officer in an AA battery.
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Holy Crap!
staggers the mind... and 55 million of them citizens. Anybody tell the ossets yet?
That is over a period of decades, but still.....62 Million is just staggering.
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That is over a period of decades, but still.....62 Million is just staggering.
No... No... Boroda said it was 20 times less than that.
It was only 2 million. Four times the American Civil War casualties for both sides.
Stalin was up there with Mother Teresa.
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Stalin was up there with Mother Teresa.
Of course he was....and yet....Stalin was Georgian and throughout this thread Comrade Boroda has repeatedly referred to the Georgians as vermin and rabid dogs......
Makes me wonder if Stalin was a vermin or a rabid dog or perhaps both? :rolleyes:
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Makes me wonder if Stalin was a vermin or a rabid dog or perhaps both? :rolleyes:
Well he did kill 62 mill...ehh 3 million Soviet citizens.
>>slipped a digit on the old abacus
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before or after his rabies shot?
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before or after his rabies shot?
They had rabies vaccines? :huh
:D
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Birth rates were higher than the death rates? Just saying..... :D
:rofl
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=death+of+a+nation#
This is probably the greatest problem Russia is facing in the near future. If that was not enough, what they are doing now is only further alienating them from the western nations, nations that could help Russia through this crisis. Russian nationalism is very strong, Putin is playing this very smart but his time to act is running out. What worries me is, what is he going to do? Will he start another great war to reconquer the lost territories of the former CCCP and try to reestablish Russia as a superpower? It smells a lot of the 1930s to me.
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Boroda you do realize you're committing a criminal slander and threat to another posters life there? It's obvious that you're a fanatic with zero respect to your fellow posters and from what I've gathered, humanity and western values in general.
Western values? You mean money and right to murder for it?
After I have heard in this thread that "Stalin sent his hordes to Germany to rape" - I can expect anything from creatures who belong to your western so-called "culture".
The sad part is that Russia was slowly but surely becoming accepted as an equal partner with the western community. Your every action, including your posts alienate you again. In United Kingdom they're already talking about revoking visas from Russians - you're becoming a nation worth of persona non gratas. Fast.
It's like you're working hard to fullfill the stereotypes and myths surrounding your people..
Equal partner!? Are you joking!?
UK visas?! Who cares?! I want all British crown slaves out of here just for what I saw on BBC last week.
You "free western world" always hated us, always invaded us, and even you Finns helped us from being genocided. Just as we got you out of Swedish yoke in 1809.
I don't need any bloody west to dictate me what i should do or what i shouldn't. We are a free country. Go teach Georgians, Estonians and other ass-lickers who's elite gets some souvenirs from Washington for letting "free world" milk their population.
And one very important thing: by screaming about all that imaginary "russian crimes and atrocities" you give us a carte-blanche to finally come and do it in real life, not on history channel. You know, we already have no reputation, why not to try following it?
Like cutting ears from POWs and captured civilians, I hope you understand what I mean.
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I don't hold it against him. Boroda is torn between what he knows is right and what he sees his beloved country doing. Enough to make anyone a little crazy.
My country is doing what it has to do saving a tiny nation from mass murderers. Just as we usually did.
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My country is doing what it has to do saving a tiny nation from mass murderers. Just as we usually did.
Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.
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My country is doing what it has to do saving a tiny nation from mass murderers
What country? :lol
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See Rules #4, #5
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Leave Boroda alone, he's russian you can not expect anything else. There's a lot of misinformation and propaganda spread in Russia, but then again it's much the same in the western nations. So who can blame him, when you (we) are much the same?
Russia is largely different from the west, for one they have never known a true democracy and really have no idea what it means let alone what it is. Western nations have enjoyed democracy for so long that we think that we still have it, while the elite have long since taken over.
I think it's time for everyone to wake up and look at their own countries instead of blaming eachother.
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Leave Boroda alone, he's russian you can not expect anything else. There's a lot of misinformation and propaganda spread in Russia, but then again it's much the same in the western nations. So who can blame him, when you (we) are much the same?
Russia is largely different from the west, for one they have never known a true democracy and really have no idea what it means let alone what it is. Western nations have enjoyed democracy for so long that we think that we still have it, while the elite have long since taken over.
I think it's time for everyone to wake up and look at their own countries instead of blaming eachother.
Well, it's not like this is an academic discussion. The Russians have invaded a neighbor and are still occupying them. The US will force a confrontation if needed to get them out. We in the US aren't feeling to kindly towards the would be evil empire right now.
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I hear ya! I live closer to Russia than you! :D
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Russians don't have internet connection?
Cripes, I heard Georgian cab drivers in Moscow have TV's in their Lada's..?
Surely somebody must have told them that Brezhnev is dead.
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:rofl
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=death+of+a+nation#
This is probably the greatest problem Russia is facing in the near future. If that was not enough, what they are doing now is only further alienating them from the western nations, nations that could help Russia through this crisis. Russian nationalism is very strong, Putin is playing this very smart but his time to act is running out. What worries me is, what is he going to do? Will he start another great war to reconquer the lost territories of the former CCCP and try to reestablish Russia as a superpower? It smells a lot of the 1930s to me.
Can you give us the gist of it? I don't really have the time to watch a video that is an hour and 14 minutes long atm. ;)
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Leave Boroda alone, he's russian you can not expect anything else. There's a lot of misinformation and propaganda spread in Russia, but then again it's much the same in the western nations. So who can blame him, when you (we) are much the same?
Russia is largely different from the west, for one they have never known a true democracy and really have no idea what it means let alone what it is. Western nations have enjoyed democracy for so long that we think that we still have it, while the elite have long since taken over.
I think it's time for everyone to wake up and look at their own countries instead of blaming eachother.
Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.
I'll give you a hint. The elite have always ruled, they rule everything. There hasn't been a time when they haven't ruled.
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Can you give us the gist of it? I don't really have the time to watch a video that is an hour and 14 minutes long atm. ;)
Birth rates are half of what is needed to keep the current population constant. Basically because the government spend money on weapons instead of education, medicine and infrastructure to give citizens a better future. A very short sighted plan, I wonder what Putin is up to.
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I'll give you a hint. The elite have always ruled, they rule everything. There hasn't been a time when they haven't ruled.
Agreed.
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Russia plans to arm their baltic fleet with Nukes, as a response to the Polish missile shield. Or so say Russian military sources to the the Times.
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See Rules #4, #5
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Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.
I have told many times that I am all for Totalitarianism. How can anyone leave vital decision to uneducated crowd?
I'll give you a hint. The elite have always ruled, they rule everything. There hasn't been a time when they haven't ruled.
Oooh you're right. "Democracy" is their way to make voters responsible for their decisions. Now we finally came to the situation where "Democracy is a power of elite that calls itself democratic".
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Boroda.. have you been to the vet lately? Had yer rabies booster shot yet?
Dowding.. I doubt your Home Office won't need to revoke many Russian Passports... the Russians seem pretty well disposed to removing Russians living in London. Like they did with Litvinenko.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1534568/Leading-Russian-critic-of-Putin's-regime-is-poisoned-in-London.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1534568/Leading-Russian-critic-of-Putin's-regime-is-poisoned-in-London.html)
They are so bgooooooooooood about caring for their expat citizens, dontcha know?
Hang, Dowding is lucky they didn't nuke Litvinenko.
Remember how ya all screamed about Politkovskaya killed by Putin? Now it is proved that she got killed by her pet Chechen "rebels".
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Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.
Keep telling yourself that US killed 4 million Vietnamese to bring them "freedom and democracy" and that you brought peace and prosperity to Iraq.
And watch BBC, they are a new Discovery channel, Discovery roadkill, no subscription fee.
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I have told many times that I am all for Totalitarianism. How can anyone leave vital decision to uneducated crowd?
Yes, we can see that very clearly. :D
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Keep telling yourself that US killed 4 million Vietnamese to bring them "freedom and democracy" and that you brought peace and prosperity to Iraq.
And watch BBC, they are a new Discovery channel, Discovery Bullpoop, no subscription fee.
Did Stalin kill 62 mill... 3 million of his own countrymen to bring them freedom and democracy?
Does the USSR (who supported the north in Vietnam) share no responsibility at all in the deaths there?
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Keep telling yourself that US killed 4 million Vietnamese
Keep telling yourself that. :lol
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Does the USSR (who supported the north in Vietnam) share no responsibility at all in the deaths there?
Of course not....not even all of Boroda's uncles and cousins that were merely advisors and technicians for SAM batteries (3 of whom made *Ace* killing American capitalist pig aircrafts) are responsible for anything.
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Did Stalin kill 62 mill... 3 million of his own countrymen to bring them freedom and democracy?
Does the USSR (who supported the north in Vietnam) share no responsibility at all in the deaths there?
~4 millions is a total number of people deprived of freedom for political reasons in 21-56. Death toll was 100 times less then that moron wrote.
At the same period of time US govt saw no prob using machine-guns on protesters, and fabricating cases like Sacco-Vancetti.
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At the same period of time US govt saw no prob using machine-guns on protesters
LINKS PLEASE!
:rofl
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I told you Rich.
You can't handle the truth about your own country Boroda. I can handle the truth about mine and admit when mine has made mistakes.
Go to this link, you will see atrocities listed by both sides. I copy/pasted a couple from your country.
http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres_axis.html#Germany
GANG RAPE IN NEMMERSDORF
Just inside the east Prussian border with Soviet occupied Lithuania, the town of Nemmersdorf was the first to fall (temporarily) into the hands of the victorious Red Army. Overrun by General Gatlitsky's 11th Guards Army, his soldiers, crazy with bloodlust, set about raping, looting and killing with such ferocity that eventually discipline had to be restored to force the soldiers back to fighting the war. From buildings, Russian signs were hung which read 'Soldiers! Majdanek does not forgive. Take revenge without mercy!'. When the Soviet 4th Army took over the town five days later, hardly a single inhabitant remained alive. Women were found nailed to barn doors after being stripped naked and gang raped, their bodies then used for target practice. Many women, and girls as young as eight years old, were raped so often and brutally that they died from this abuse alone. Children were shot indiscriminately and all those trying to flee were crushed to death under the treads of the Soviet tanks. Forty French prisoners-of-war were shot on the spot as spies after welcoming the Red Army as liberators. Seventy one women and one man were found in houses, all dead. All the women, including girls aged from eight to twelve, had been raped.
In other East Prussian villages within the triangle Gumbinnen-Goldap-Ebenrode, the same scenes were witnessed, old men and boys being castrated and their eyes gouged out before being killed or burned alive. In nearby Metgethen, a suburb of Königsberg, recaptured by the German 5th Panzer Division, around 60 women were found in a demented state in a large villa. They had been raped on average 60 to 70 times a day. In nearly every home, the bodies of women and children were found raped and murdered. The bodies of two young women were found, their legs had been tied one limb each between two trucks, and then torn apart when the trucks were driven away in opposite directions. At Metgethen railway station, a refugee train from Konigsberg, consisting of seven passenger coaches, was found and in each compartment seven to nine bestially mutilated bodies were discovered. To the Russians, refugee trains were ideal sources of women and booty. In the town of Niesse in Silesia, 182 Catholic nuns were raped and debauched daily by the Russians.
In a house in another town children were found sitting around a dinner table, plates of potato pancakes in front of them. All were dead, their tongues nailed to the table. Soviet officers reported back to Moscow that mass poisoning from captured alcohol, including dangerous chemicals found in laboratories, is damaging the fighting capacity of the Red Army. All too often, soldiers who had drunk too much and were unable to perform the sex act, used the bottle to mutilate their victims obscenely. Alexander Solzhenitsyn, an ex-captain in the Soviet Army, recalls, "All of us knew very well that if girls were German they could be raped and then shot. This was almost a combat distinction" (Details of these, and other atrocities, are contained in the Eastern Documentation Section of the German Federal Archives in Berlin)
The orgy of rape by Soviet troops was far greater than at first believed. Even Russian women and young girls, newly liberated from concentration camps in Poland and in Germany, were brutally violated. The thousands of Russian women taken to Germany for forced labour also fell victims to the rapists. 'I waited for the Red Army for days and nights. I waited for my liberation, but now our soldiers treat us far worse than the Germans did' said one Maria Shapoval,'They do terrible things to us'.
roadkill is your way of thinking, as well as ignorance, and it;s a statement.
Take a look at this, your favorite Wikipedia, but with all the sources and multiple proof other then nazi Propaganda ministry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemmersdorf_massacre
After 1991 and the fall of the Soviet Union, new sources became available and the dominant view among scholars became that the massacre was embellished, and actually exploited, by Goebbels in an attempt to stir up civilian resistance to the advancing Soviet Army. Bernhard Fisch, in his book Nemmersdorf, October 1944. What actually happened in East Prussia (the first book to also include the Russian view of the event) was the first to present this picture of the events. Fisch, an East Prussian and a soldier at the time, had been in Nemmersdorf a few days after it was re-taken, and remembered a totally different scene from the one depicted by the Wochenschau.[11] He interviewed many witnesses still alive on both sides (e.g., Soviet General Kuzma N. Galitsky, former commander of 11th Guards Army) and crossing out faulty memories against each other, he found out some disturbing details: the German army itself was responsible for destroying the strong German defensive position in front of Nemmersdorf (so the whole affair may even have been a trap, planned from the very start), and after the event no attempt had been made to identify the photographed victims by name. He was able to conclude that liberties were taken with at least some of the photographs, that some victims on the photographs were from other East Prussian villages, and that the notorious crucifixion barn doors were not even in Nemmersdorf. There also was the tight time schedule of witness Joachim Reisch, reducing the Soviet presence at Nemmersdorf to less than four hours of heavy fighting in front of the bridge.
Even you nazi admireres have to admit it was a fake.
LOL Nemmersdorf is a well-known symbol of nazi propaganda roadkill. Staged "war crimes".
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4 millions is a total number of people deprived of freedom for political reasons in 21-56.
In over 200 years the USA has never deprived a single citizen of freedom for purely political reasons.
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:rofl
say what?
Everyone know that and I have 3 books in Russian about it. With first hand accounts from people after they have been shot to death. :D
Seriously now, did I open your eyes on that sad fact?! Chicago riots 1886 is the first such occasion I can remember out of my head when US used firearms (not machine guns though) on protesters. Later it became a common practice, especially in 1929-1933. "Everyone knows that!" (tm).
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In over 200 years the USA has never deprived a single citizen of freedom for purely political reasons.
LOL 100,000+ ethnic Japanese in 1941.
Angela Davis, Leonard Peltier, should I continue?
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~4 millions is a total number of people deprived of freedom for political reasons in 21-56. Death toll was 100 times less then that moron wrote.
At the same period of time US govt saw no prob using machine-guns on protesters, and fabricating cases like Sacco-Vancetti.
So I'm googling 'Machine gun protesters USA 1920... Battle of Matewan - Blair mountain.. is that what your talking about?
On May 19, 1920 ten people were killed at Matewan in the deadliest gunfight in American history. The battle of Matewan, popularly dubbed the "Matewan massacre," was an integral part of the fight for industrial democracy and workers' rights that was sweeping the country.
Or was it the follow on, the battle of Blair Mountain?
In late August and September of 1921, the largest armed rebellion in the U.S. since the Civil War was mounted in the coalfields of southern West Virginia. Union coal miners gathered, in numbers estimated anywhere from 5,000 to 10,000 strong, outside of Charleston. Local sheriff's forces under the authority of Sheriff Don Chafin and ultimately Federal troops were sent in to quash the rebellion. Up to 30 deaths were reported by Chafin’s side and 50-100 on the union miners side
You object to inflated figures by a factor of 15 or 20, calling the historian 'that moron' and then you equate 10 to 100 to 4,000,000? :huh
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"LOL 100,000+ ethnic Japanese in 1941." - we staged the attack on Pearl Harbor too for just this purpose... good grief :lol
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LOL 100,000+ ethnic Japanese in 1941.
Angela Davis, Leonard Peltier, should I continue?
I am going to list by name those deprived in the USSR.
Does anybody have a 1988 Moscow phone book I could borrow?
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"LOL 100,000+ ethnic Japanese in 1941." - we staged the attack on Pearl Harbor too for just this purpose... good grief :lol
He has a point with the Japanese internment.
They lost their property and their freedom for the war years, and most did not get their property back.
Uncle Joe would have killed them.
Uncle Sam apologised.
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Why wouldn't the Germans use Nemmerdorf as an example of what the USSR was doing?
The links that back up that article either don't work or are in languages other than English. Try again comrade.
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"LOL 100,000+ ethnic Japanese in 1941." - we staged the attack on Pearl Harbor too for just this purpose... good grief :lol
LOL USSR didn't put ethnic Germans into prison camps in 1941, while there were accidents when German colonists in the Ukraine shoot Soviet soldiers at the back.
And you guys got 100000 innocent people into prison camps for 4 years. WTG freedom and democracy.
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Why wouldn't the Germans use Nemmerdorf as an example of what the USSR was doing?
The links that back up that article either don't work or are in languages other than English. Try again comrade.
Learn some other language. Your ignorance is your problem not mine.
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LOL 100,000+ ethnic Japanese in 1941.
They were interred in camps yes, however it wasn't because of their political views. It was believed that they were a security risk during the war and that is why they were interred. Was it right? No.
Angela Davis:
She first achieved nationwide notoriety when a weapon registered in her name was linked to the murder of Judge Harold Haley during an effort to free a black convict that was being tried for the attempted retaliatory murder of a white prison guard who killed three unarmed black inmates; this escape was staged by the Black Panthers and the Soledad Brothers. She fled underground, and was the subject of an intense manhunt. Davis was eventually captured, arrested, tried, and then acquitted in one of the most famous trials in recent U.S. history.
Arrested for a crime, tried, found innocent and released.
Leonard Peltier:
Leonard Peltier (born September 12, 1944) is a Native American activist and member of the American Indian Movement. In 1977 he was convicted and sentenced to two consecutive terms of life imprisonment for the murder of two FBI Agents who died during a 1975 shoot-out on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation.
In prison for the crime of murder, specifically the murder of 2 FBI agents.
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Learn some other language. Your ignorance is your problem not mine.
Do you read German?
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LOL USSR didn't put ethnic Germans into prison camps in 1941, while there were accidents when German colonists in the Ukraine shoot Soviet soldiers at the back.
And you guys got 100000 innocent people into prison camps for 4 years. WTG freedom and democracy.
Sad event true enough. How many of the 100,000 + German soldiers captured at Stalingrad returned home? About 5,000. I suppose the rest could have become Russian citizens lol. Every country has events, especially in times of war, that were wrong with tragic results. I'm not in denial about it.
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Every country has events, especially in times of war, that were wrong with tragic results.
Exactly. There is only one person here that is in denial that I have seen. I won't mention any names but his initials are Comrade Boroda. :D
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I have told many times that I am all for Totalitarianism. How can anyone leave vital decision to uneducated crowd?
Oooh you're right. "Democracy" is their way to make voters responsible for their decisions. Now we finally came to the situation where "Democracy is a power of elite that calls itself democratic".
It stops speaking to it's intellectual superiors or it gets the hose.
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It stops speaking to it's intellectual superiors or it gets the hose.
:rofl
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LOL USSR didn't put ethnic Germans into prison camps in 1941, while there were accidents when German colonists in the Ukraine shoot Soviet soldiers at the back.
And you guys got 100000 innocent people into prison camps for 4 years. WTG freedom and democracy.
Hmmmmmm... I wonder how many russians are still in our concentration camp and detention centers in brooklyn. We didn't have to round them up, btw; they just showed up at the gates.
...seems they like livin in crapholes.
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LOL USSR didn't put ethnic Germans into prison camps in 1941, while there were accidents when German colonists in the Ukraine shoot Soviet soldiers at the back.
And you guys got 100000 innocent people into prison camps for 4 years. WTG freedom and democracy.
In 1941, the two countries were bound by the "Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact". But prior to NKVD Order 7161, they were shot. But after Order 7161, the following was common.
Thanks to opening of the Russian archives the fates of some of these civilians have been made known, by late 1996 the German Red Cross had received from Russia 199,000 records of deported German civilians who had either been repatriated or died in Soviet captivity.
An example of a case record is that of Pauline Gölner; her records reveal that she was born in 1926 in Wolkendorf in Transylvania, was arrested on January 15, 1945 and sent to forced labor in the coal mines of Chanchenkowo (Ukraine) where she died on February 26, 1949, at only 23 years old.
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After 1991 and the fall of the Soviet Union, new sources became available and the dominant view among scholars became that the massacre was embellished, and actually exploited, by Goebbels in an attempt to stir up civilian resistance to the advancing Soviet Army. Bernhard Fisch, in his book Nemmersdorf, October 1944. What actually happened in East Prussia (the first book to also include the Russian view of the event) was the first to present this picture of the events. Fisch, an East Prussian and a soldier at the time, had been in Nemmersdorf a few days after it was re-taken, and remembered a totally different scene from the one depicted by the Wochenschau.[11] He interviewed many witnesses still alive on both sides (e.g., Soviet General Kuzma N. Galitsky, former commander of 11th Guards Army) and crossing out faulty memories against each other, he found out some disturbing details: the German army itself was responsible for destroying the strong German defensive position in front of Nemmersdorf (so the whole affair may even have been a trap, planned from the very start), and after the event no attempt had been made to identify the photographed victims by name. He was able to conclude that liberties were taken with at least some of the photographs, that some victims on the photographs were from other East Prussian villages, and that the notorious crucifixion barn doors were not even in Nemmersdorf. There also was the tight time schedule of witness Joachim Reisch, reducing the Soviet presence at Nemmersdorf to less than four hours of heavy fighting in front of the bridge.
Your own source does not say it didn't happen, only that it was embellished (exaggerated) and exploited (propaganda) by Goebbels. All sides used propaganda during the war, why is it so surprising the Germans did with this event?
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I don't think the looting, mass rapes and murders of the Red Army in Germany can be debated, there is enough evidence. It's just that the subject has not been touched by historians because it's a "dirty" one, who cares about the death of some "nazi germans" right? "They got what they deserved." Is a very popular opinion, and while that may be true, it is not right to conveniently forget about what happened.
By '44 STAVKA had a serious issue with POWs not reaching interrogation centers, they were killed (murdered) in the handling between the front line and interrogation.
There is one documented incident where a russian unit killed a workers battalion (men and women) from Ukraine, in late -44.
There's a book on this otherwise widely avoided subject by Niklas Sennerteg, Stalins Hämnd (http://www.historiskamedia.se/o.o.i.s?id=208&func=show_i&product_id=3119) (Stalin's Revenge). Don't know if there is a english translation available though.
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So, what were we talking about again? :rolleyes:
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The Grizzly Bear.
BTW, I personally know folks that were in Soviet captivity in WW2.
The account is...not nice.
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No... No... Boroda said it was 20 times less than that.
It was only 2 million. Four times the American Civil War casualties for both sides.
Stalin was up there with Mother Teresa.
:lol :rofl Yeah, "It wasnt 6 million Jews ; It was 2 million tops".
I think Boroda is just busting chops in bad English. And he's doing a rather poor job of it. English is a difficult language to bust chops in, and it was only after decades of practice that I mastered it. But I wont unleash my high powered sarcasm on Boroda cause I have my reputation to think of. He's really so pitifull, here swining at all of you so blindly.
I dont think Russia will ever have the gift of a stable Democracy. I never thought they would and considered the years after the fall of the wall a Russian winter until they ushered in their next strongman. The Russians just dont do well when making their own decisions. They need another to do so for them. A pity really, for such a gifted nation.
And he is actually right about the Japanese we put in prison camps. However the Russian equivelant would have been starvation and working to death in Gulags. Its all a matter of degree really. Personaly I expect a resurrection of Joe Stalins memory with the current Russian mindset. And it would be fitting would it not?
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Back to topic then.
Russia had promised to pull their troops out of Georgia today (monday). Instead they are advancing back into Gori.
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They're taking the long way home.
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Russia had promised to pull their troops out of Georgia today (monday). Instead they are advancing back into Gori.
This just in from Russian State News.....we go to Russian State reporter, Comical Ali....
(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj196/bustergrn/Picture1-1.png)
"Russia is not attacking in Georgian provinces. Russia has pulled out and all of Armys are resting in barracks of Moscow. We sign for peace. We give back Georgias weapons and wish them good luck in their future endeavors".
Now, back to Vladmir's Funniest Home Videos....
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The Russians are setting up a buffer zone. It just happens to take in Tbilisi, Warsaw and half of Berlin. They also intend to build an 'anti-fascist barrier'. :D
Supposedy, Russians are barring Red Cross from entering South Ossetia. What have they got to hide?
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Saw this in the Telegratoejam and thought it interesting.
Link (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2575214/Georgia-Russian-military-entrench-themselves-deeper.html)
Jist of the article is that the Russians are digging in appear to plan on sticking around, but the below quote is what I found most interesting.
Manning a checkpoint outside the Georgian town of Kaspi, 25 miles southeast of Gori, four young Chechen soldiers admitted that their South Ossetian allies had carried out reprisals against Georgian civilians - but insisted they were justified.
"Do you know what the Georgians did in Tskhinvali," demanded one fighter, who identified himself as Sulim. "They killed 2,000 people. Georgians were crushing small children with their tanks."
From the beginning of hostilities, officials in Moscow were quick to declare that "genocide" was taking place and that up to 2,000 people had been killed in attacks deliberately aimed at Tskhinvali's civilian population.
Vladimir Putin, the prime minister, went on television to claim that Georgian tanks were crushing children and Georgian soldiers were beheading civilians.
Yet the first independent human rights activists attempting to calculate the civilian death toll have so far only been able to confirm the deaths of 44 people according to records from Tskhinvali's only hospital.
According to Human Rights Watch, the respected New York-based body, the Kremlin's deliberate exaggeration of the civilian death toll was inevitably contributing to the scale of reprisals against Georgians.
Asked whether he had personally seen any children crushed by Georgian tanks, Sulim replied: "No, but I heard Putin say it so it must be true."
Russian propaganda has been so convincing that not even the few independent media outlets that normally criticise the Kremlin in Russia have spoken out against the Georgia war.
Instead, many Russians believe that the West has rushed to support Georgia, despite the fact that President Mikheil Saakashvili is, in their eyes, guilty of genocide.
Sulim and his fellow fighters are convinced that Ukrainians, Estonians and even Chinese and westerners were fighting against them in South Ossetia. They claimed that dents in the front of their tank were caused by a bomb dropped from an American jet.
Believing that the world is against them but that right is on their side, the Russian people are convinced that, ceasefire or no ceasefire, their army must stay in Georgia for as long as is necessary.
Two things stick out from the above.
1. So far only 44 people can be confirmed dead and no "genocide" took place what so ever. There would be EVIDENCE if there was indeed a massacre that happened in Southern Ossetia and there is none.
2. I think Boroda has a long lost brother named Sulim
(edit: another great read from McClatchy Link (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/48860.html)
Highlights from the article...
The difference between Russian officials' description of Tskhinvali and the facts on the ground are profound.
Col. Gen Anatoly Nogovitsyn, the deputy head of the Russian military's general staff, said last Tuesday that "Tskhinvali doesn't exist, it's like Stalingrad was after the war."
But in fact, the city still does exist. While there was extensive damage to some structures, most buildings had front doors on their hinges and standing walls. For every building charred by explosions — the Georgians are accused of using multiple rocket launcher systems — there were others on tree-lined streets that looked untouched.
The doctor at the Tskhinvali hospital, Tina Zakharova, said she wanted to clarify that she wasn't disagreeing with the South Ossetian officials' numbers, adding that many bodies had been buried in gardens and cemeteries in outlying villages. She could not, however, explain how more than 2,000 dead — the difference between her hospital's count and the Kremlin-backed officials' tally — were buried in a relatively small area without any evidence such as stacks of coffins or mass funerals.
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“We have always been a peace-loving state. Practically there is not a single occasion in the history of the Russian or Soviet state when we first started military actions. We have not attacked anyone, we only secured the rights and dignity of people as peacekeepers.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4557369.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4557369.ece)
It seems that Putin has forgotten to teach his new puppet some things about the 20th century. :)
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Saw this in the Telegratoejam and thought it interesting.
Link (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2575214/Georgia-Russian-military-entrench-themselves-deeper.html)
Jist of the article is that the Russians are digging in appear to plan on sticking around, but the below quote is what I found most interesting.
Two things stick out from the above.
1. So far only 44 people can be confirmed dead and no "genocide" took place what so ever. There would be EVIDENCE if there was indeed a massacre that happened in Southern Ossetia and there is none.
2. I think Boroda has a long lost brother named Sulim
(edit: another great read from McClatchy Link (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/48860.html)
Highlights from the article...
Bush told us all about Saddams evil WMD's and we fell for it. Just because a world leader says it doesn't mean its true. This whole situation smacks of bad politics on both sides.
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But in fact, the city still does exist. While there was extensive damage to some structures, most buildings had front doors on their hinges and standing walls. For every building charred by explosions — the Georgians are accused of using multiple rocket launcher systems — there were others on tree-lined streets that looked untouched.
Boroda posted a couple links to a website with pictures of Tskhinvali. He tried to claim the city was destroyed, yet all the buildings were still standing. (Some were obviously damaged) He reasserted his claim of a massive artillery barrage and yet there were no shell craters to be seen.
With that in mind, it does not surprise me that casualty figures have been embellished for propaganda purposes.
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Boroda posted a couple links to a website with pictures of Tskhinvali. He tried to claim the city was destroyed, yet all the buildings were still standing. (Some were obviously damaged) He reasserted his claim of a massive artillery barrage and yet there were no shell craters to be seen.
With that in mind, it does not surprise me that casualty figures have been embellished for propaganda purposes.
Let the russians do what they need to over there to feel safe, we would. :aok
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“We have always been a peace-loving state. Practically there is not a single occasion in the history of the Russian or Soviet state when we first started military actions. We have not attacked anyone, we only secured the rights and dignity of people as peacekeepers.”
Is that a quote of Putin? It is completely laughable.
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Let the russians do what they need to over there to feel safe, we would. :aok
It's just that russians take propaganda to a different level than what we in the west usually do. Russians are not shy of plain lies. If there is a propaganda action in the west, care is taken to try to cover up the facts that it's a lie (or modified truth), russians simply don't bother doing that.
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Is that a quote of Putin? It is completely laughable.
Check out the link. Like I said, it's a quote by Putin's new puppet ie. Dimitry Medvedev. ;)
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Let the russians do what they need to over there to feel safe, we would. :aok
Take a look at this, Mark. This is off of the Yahoo news' headlines' this morning:
A U.S. official told The Associated Press that the Russian military moved SS-21 missile launchers into South Ossetia on Friday. From there, the missiles would be able to reach Tbilisi.
Nogovitsyn, the Russian military official, disputed the claim, saying Russia "sees no necessity" to place SS-21s in the region.
The war broke out after Georgia launched a barrage to try to retake control of South Ossetia, a Russian-backed separatist region that split off in the early 1990s. Russia had peacekeeping forces in South Ossetia and sent in thousands of reinforcements immediately, driving out Georgian forces. Georgian troops also were driven out of the small portion they had held in another separatist region, the Black Sea province of Abkhazia.
Russian troops also took positions deep into Georgia, including Gori, about 50 miles west of the capital, and in the Black Sea port of Poti. They also began a campaign to disable the Georgian military, destroying or carting away large caches of military equipment. An AP photographer saw Russian troops guarding rows of captured Georgian military vehicles Sunday in Tskhinvali.
An AP photographer also saw Russian troops Sunday in the South Ossetian village of Kikhvi. Houses in the mostly-ethnic Georgian village were burning days after most fighting had ended.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080818/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080818/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia)
You don't need a Nuclear-capable SRBM to enforce a treaty withdrawal. Something's odd about this.
BTW, this is the same missile they used on Grozny.